November 11, 2025 • 39 mins
Here’s the deal—AI promises a lot.
Efficiency, productivity, transformation. Every week, something new.
But work also runs on things like trust, connection, and human relationships. So the real question isn’t just how fast we adopt AI—it’s how we balance ambition with reality, timelines, people, and humanity.
In this episode, we sit down with Wendy Miller, Chief HR Officer for North America at McKinsey & Company, to talk about what balancing AI ambition and reality actually looks like on the ground. Wendy gets candid about the chaos, the learning curves, and what it really takes for leaders and teams to adapt without losing their footing—or their people.
We dig into the rewiring of organizations, the blind spots most execs miss, and why the real edge in the AI era isn’t speed—it’s humanity.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- Why “go smaller, but go fast” might be the smartest AI adoption strategy yet
- The cost of chasing speed before impact—and how to avoid it
- How to upskill, experiment, and play without losing control
- The new role of HR as the human side of digital transformation
- Why trust and authenticity are still your best performance tools
- What a “learner’s mindset” really looks like in practice
- How to reinvest AI’s efficiency gains back into better leadership, better work, and better culture
Find Wendy on LinkedIn
Disclaimer: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered professional advice. We are not responsible for any losses, damages, or liabilities that may arise from the use of this podcast. The views expressed in this podcast may not be those of the host or the management.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_04 (00:00):
Can we use this technology and AI revolution as
(00:04):
a way to empower yourorganization to do things in a
better way?
SPEAKER_00 (00:24):
Welcome to your work friends.
I'm Mel Platt.
And I'm Francesca Reneri.
And we break down the now andnext of work.
So you stay ahead.
What's going on?
SPEAKER_01 (00:34):
Nothing much.
Nothing much at all.
I already put my Christmas treeup.
Tis the season.
Yeah.
2025 has been the year whereNovember 1st the Christmas tree
goes up.
SPEAKER_00 (00:43):
We gotta create our magic.
Francesca, who did we sit downwith this week?
SPEAKER_01 (00:48):
We sat down with Wendy Miller.
She is the chief HR officer forNorth America for McKinsey.
And we talked about balancing AIambition with reality.
Here's the deal AI promises alot.
Like a lot.
And every week it's somethingelse.
But more than ever, it's apromising thing like efficiency,
productivity.
(01:09):
But work also runs on thingslike trust, connection, and
human relationships.
The real question isn't just howfast we adopt AI, it's how we
balance ambition with reality,timelines, people, humanity.
So we sat down with WendyMiller.
We wanted to talk to her abouthow she thinks about balancing
AI ambition and reality forherself, for leaders, for
(01:34):
organizations and employees, andwhat we should be paying
attention to right now.
Mel, what did you think aboutthis conversation?
SPEAKER_00 (01:40):
I loved it because one, just getting insights from
Wendy, who is in the know, Iwould say, but in the real world
examples, she's sharing aroundwhat McKinsey is testing and
learning and trying, and justreally sharing the vulnerability
around we're all learningsomething and being open to that
is is a we're in a unique spaceand we should enjoy it.
(02:01):
So it was a positive, I feel,constructive message to share
with some really good insightsfor those who are also
exploring.
SPEAKER_01 (02:08):
Yeah.
And Wendy is one of those peopletoo you just want to hang out
with.
100%.
And with that, here's Wendy.
SPEAKER_00 (02:26):
Okay.
We are excited to have you here,Wendy.
Yeah, I'm excited to be here.
We're talking about AI and theacceleration of AI.
It's moving super fast, and fromyour seat, you've got like a
front row seat to what'shappening.
What does it really look like onthe ground?
SPEAKER_04 (02:45):
I think it looks pretty chaotic, is what I would
tell you.
The speed of innovation and thespeed of adoption in the last
six months is incredible.
I heard someone say that largelanguage modules have learned
more in the last six weeks thanthey had in the last six years.
Usage is just so much higher.
(03:07):
And it obviously, the more youuse it, the more the AI becomes
better.
And so on the ground, what itrequires is for all of us to get
comfortable with things being alittle clunky, right?
So as you bring on a new tooland you're changing the process
and you're identifying theprocess and you're upskilling
your organization to becomfortable with the technology,
(03:29):
that's a lot of disruption atthe same time.
We were on this journey aroundidentifying our performance
management systems.
And we rolled out a tool that wecall evaluator aid.
And it allows for you to runthrough the entire performance
management of collecting theinformation, pulling in the
other resources and other factsthat you might have in someone's
(03:51):
performance review, collectingthat information, synthesizing
it, and starting to help youiterate on what a feedback memo
would look like.
We're 18 months into thatjourney.
A year ago, the tool was verymediocre.
The tool, this performancecycle, has been so much better.
And yet we still have so muchmore to do.
(04:12):
And so I think all of us have tohave a mindset where you're
working with something, you'regiving improvements and be much
more agile.
We love to use that word, butfor each human, that's a lot to
continue to navigate.
So I think it's exciting.
I think there's a lot of growthand potential for all of us to
(04:32):
learn new skills.
And we have to remember thatsometimes that feels pretty
challenging.
SPEAKER_00 (04:38):
What we're seeing in a lot of organizations from
folks that we're talking toevery day, and then obviously
the headlines and what we hearfrom people in multiple
organizations is they're told goout and use it and not getting a
ton of guidance around it, getthese efficiencies, see how it
works.
And so, how do you get them tobalance all of that change, but
(04:59):
also have fun in the process tosee what's possible?
SPEAKER_04 (05:04):
I think it's really hard.
I think setting the vision ofwhere this will go and the
potential for change is still avision that many people can't
quite articulate.
And that then leads to peoplesaying, hey, take the tools,
start to play with them and seewhat you can come up with.
(05:28):
That's where actually a lot ofthe innovation is happening,
right?
At the ground level, here areprocesses that I'm doing today
that even maybe senior folksdon't understand how hard they
are to do or how much time theytake.
And that is an interestingapproach and a good one.
Have people on the ground startto experiment and come up with
ideas.
And I think you have to leaninto this as a new way of
(05:50):
working in a way that you usedto maybe know exactly what
you're going to do every day.
And how do I innovate?
How do I bring a change mindsetto things?
How do I share and communicatewith other people?
We have found that creatingcommunities that share the
learnings and putting out, hey,this worked for me, you try it.
(06:12):
Personal life and professionallife, but that's where a lot of
people are learning on theground.
Oh, I did it this way, so Icould try it over here too.
But that isn't been the waywe've been working together over
the last ever, quite honestly.
Some people on innovation teamsknow how to come together and
bring different people fromdifferent parts of your
organization to then innovate ona process or a product.
(06:37):
But your HR organization hasn'tbeen your innovation center, per
se, right?
Like we've been rolling out anddoing the things that we do and
keeping things steady and nomistakes kind of atmosphere is
what people would like to sayabout your HR processes.
And so now what you're sayingis, hey, go play with this and
(06:57):
get it close to right, and we'llsee and we'll make it better.
But that is actually a prettydifferent way of thinking.
SPEAKER_00 (07:04):
Yeah, there's it seems to be like this huge push
for speed to adoption.
You've been thoughtful in thatperformance management.
I love that example because it'sonly gotten better over time,
and then there's still room forimprovement.
And so there's like this needfor speed.
But as I think Francesca, one ofmy favorite things you always
say is go slow to go fast.
It's one of my favorite things.
(07:25):
So in this moment, there's areal cost potentially for speed.
So, what's that cost if you aretrying to focus more on adoption
versus impact?
SPEAKER_04 (07:35):
I think if you go fast and go big, then the
mistakes are more costly.
And I also think that if youfail in a large way, it is too
public and will stop some of theinnovation.
And the thing about AI is how doyou create like smaller pockets
(08:00):
with some boundaries on them sothat you can experiment in a
smaller way and you can iterateand make the process better and
deal with the mistakes, but allin something that you can get
your arms around.
And the challenge with the pushfor speed and the push for
efficiency is like how quicklycan you get this innovation and
(08:22):
the AI into a spot where you getthe efficiencies out and the
gains across your organization?
So you're balancing those twothings, but while you process
rewire, you culturally rewire,you upscale your organization.
So I do think it's a go smaller,but go fast, smaller, and learn
and then roll it out, which Ithink the best of the best are
(08:46):
doing.
SPEAKER_00 (08:46):
Yeah.
From your own journey, what aresome blind spots you would
advise executives or people tolook out for with AI?
SPEAKER_04 (08:55):
From an organization perspective, the blind spot that
I see is that all of this iscoming that much of this could
come out of your IT or from yourCIO.
And that it could feel like uhall tech all the time in the way
you identify your organization.
And I think what we know forsure is that there's a
(09:17):
human-centric side to this andan organization process design
side to the transformations thatneed to happen.
And so you need to think aboutwho is that team that is rolling
this out and thinking aboutrewiring a function and ensure
that it is tech in partnershipwith the business leader or the
HR leader so that you can thinkabout doing this in a much more
(09:40):
holistic way for yourorganization.
And the challenge is I'll justspeak for myself and is I don't
think anyone would have calledme a tech savvy leader six
months ago.
And I didn't even think I neededto be a tech savvy leader.
I know you need to be a businessleader.
That to me has been true.
(10:01):
I think HR professionals arebetter when they are partnered
with the business and understandthe key drivers of success and
performance for yourorganization.
It's probably a very obviousthing to say, but we should, I
think we all should dig deeperinto what is the performance of
our organization and what arethe key drivers that matter.
But tech has become one ofthose, and AI has become one of
(10:23):
those very quickly.
And so my challenge to myself isto become much more comfortable
and AI savvy.
And it's hard.
I've got established habits andprocesses and the way I like to
work.
And so again, you have to stepback and try to rethink some of
the things that have worked formy for the entirety of my career
(10:43):
and think, could I do thisdifferently?
I'm meeting with someone whochallenges me and pushes me.
Trying to do it on your own isone way, but finding someone who
can help you think about it andchange once you've been doing
something for a while.
It's nice to have somebody thatcan just offer some new ideas.
SPEAKER_00 (11:01):
Yeah.
Better together.
SPEAKER_04 (11:03):
Better together for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (11:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (11:06):
It's interesting too.
I'm looking at like the ModernaCHRO is now the CIO as well.
They put tech under her inaddition to HR, which to me
signals we're thinking about AIas quote unquote part of that
resource in human resources.
And so it begs a veryinteresting question around like
org design and everything else.
(11:27):
When you think about the techpiece, it's just, and it's all
moving so quickly.
All this is going on from acultural perspective, a tech
perspective, an org designperspective.
And to your very good point, alot of the AI, especially right
now, it's every quarter there'ssome big update.
Yes.
And that's really hard to dothese like big cultural
transformations and big orgdesign changes when it's all
(11:49):
changing so quickly.
I've never seen speed like thisin my life.
SPEAKER_04 (11:53):
I agree.
I totally agree.
I think we all are gonna have tolearn how to iterate a little
bit faster.
And that's hard on your people.
That's really hard on yourpeople when their roles are
changing and evolving.
You have agents that are part ofthe design of the organization.
Tech will just be embedded.
Now, for organizations likeMcKinsey, where we bring in a
(12:16):
pretty healthy-sized group ofkids coming out of undergrad or
their MBAs or early in theirprofessional careers, that group
will be tech savvy.
So the bottom is going to pushus quick to say there are better
ways to do this, there arefaster ways to do this.
That generation will have AI aspart of the portfolio of how
(12:39):
they work every day.
And I think we'll learn a lotfrom them.
SPEAKER_01 (13:02):
It's all dead.
And then you have other peoplethat are saying this is gonna be
the best thing on the face ofthe planet.
AI is gonna allow you to go backto farming.
I don't know why every freakinganalogy with every futurist is,
oh, we're all gonna be able toplant our own vegetables.
I'm like, what the hell is goingon with the farming analogy?
Yes.
I mean writing.
SPEAKER_03 (13:24):
But it is really hard work.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (13:27):
Yes.
A thousand percent.
Like it's incredibly hard work.
Also, like I'm not even gonnatalk about the state of farmers
right now.
So it's just this is I don'tknow if this is the analogy we
want to go with.
Maybe we go with candle makingor we're making donuts.
But if you're a manager, ifyou're a leader, if you're in an
organization, you're gonna haveemplo some employees that are
(13:48):
gonna see this as awesome,massive opportunity LFG.
And then you're gonna have someother folks that are just like,
this is taking my job.
And I don't want to touch it.
Or if you're leading a team or acompany to keep people at least
engaged or not freaked out.
What's the play there?
SPEAKER_04 (14:08):
I think we're all learning how to do this as we
go, quite honestly.
It's such a disruptor for folks,and depending on where you are
in what role you play, and yourown ability to work from a place
of confidence or a place offear, I think you'll react a
little differently.
I think overall you you canallow people to not opt in and
(14:31):
to learn how to work in thisway.
I think it is a huge mistake.
And ignoring that this ishappening and doing your job the
way you used to do it is amistake.
Will it create someefficiencies?
Will some roles go away?
They will.
Will we still need real leaders,the human touch?
(14:52):
We'll need judgment, we'll needfolks that can think beyond the
rule and create the exception.
We'll need leaders that canprovide the care and the
insight.
So if I was in the camp of notengaging in this, I am missing
out on how to understand howthis works and to upskill myself
(15:13):
because we're gonna want folksthat are truly adding value on
top of AI.
But I think it's challenging,right?
There are definitely folks thatare in roles where you go, this
is a pretty administrative role,and all anyone is telling me is
that it goes away.
If I was in that type of role, Iwould be asking myself, where
can I uniquely add value?
(15:35):
And what can I do so that I takethe efficiency of AI and then I,
Wendy, personally make itbetter.
And I think you should talk tosomebody and think it through.
And exactly what I said aboutthe one-on-one.
Sometimes it's hard to see theopportunities that you have in
your own role because you're soentrenched in your day-to-day.
(15:58):
Have somebody hold a mirror upto it, ask some questions,
brainstorm, be curious.
I'm not trying to act likethat's easy, by the way.
SPEAKER_01 (16:07):
I'm not.
It's not easy to do, but that isthe good advice, right?
There's a couple things I thinkabout with this.
One is I think everyone ownstheir own career.
They own their own development.
Like at the end of the day, ifyou're taking a long view in the
long arc of your life, to yourvery good point about
intentionality, that starts withowning it.
And I think part of that startswith how can you be more curious
(16:27):
and that sort of thing.
There is another component atthe organizational level around
the organization'sresponsibility to upskill or to
reskill.
We were having conversations 10years ago about starting to at
least upskill our folks on AIliteracy, cloud, blockchain.
Like, what is the blockchain?
I still don't know how toexplain what the hell the
(16:49):
blockchain is as opposed to aledger.
I'm like, it's a ledger, but Ioh, it's fine.
Anyway, it's a good, it's a goodexample.
It's a good example.
It's like how do you explainthis?
But how do we be literate?
Like we started this 10 yearsago, but we are in triage.
Organizations are in triageright now.
What does practical reskillinglook like at the organizational
level right now?
(17:09):
What is the good play here?
SPEAKER_04 (17:12):
I think you've got to do both.
So I 100% agree with you.
Like we own our own developmentand we should all feel empowered
to take charge of that.
There are a ton of resources nowavailable for free online that
you could learn a lot.
And then obviously, people isour business.
Our client success is in isbecause of the people that we
(17:35):
bring in and how robustly wetrain and upskill and apprentice
them.
We're doing a lotorganizationally on top of it.
There are learning programs youcan join.
There are small groups, there'sone-on-one support, but we are
trying to create an environmentwhere there's in any way in
which you learn, you could goand find the resources to help
(17:57):
you.
It's not perfect.
That too is something like ourlearning and development people
are running as fast as they canto create the programs, to roll
them out and to get them infront of folks.
The small group to me, thesharing within a community and
just even creating the space.
(18:18):
We created a Slack channel forpeople to share ideas.
We've created learning forumswhere you come together and you
just spend an hour on Zoom andpeople talk about how they're
using AI.
There's a lot of that isactually pretty cool and pretty
easy to do.
And you don't even need yourorganization to do it, quite
honestly.
You could find 10 friends andsay, okay, we're going to hold
ourselves accountable to do thistogether.
(18:41):
Because don't you think likeanything else?
Like you know you're supposed tolearn it and you're supposed to
be curious and play, and thenyour day gets busy and you're
trying to get through what's onyour plate.
And it's like exercise.
Like I know I should exercise,but if I have a buddy who's
holding me accountable toexercising, I'm more likely to
do it.
But we're all running at thispretty hard and pretty fast, is
(19:03):
what it feels like today to me.
SPEAKER_01 (19:05):
Yeah.
And I gotta say, McKinsey'slearning team, we know those
people over there.
You got a great learning teamover there.
Yeah.
Yes, we have an exceptionallearning team.
SPEAKER_04 (19:15):
They are exceptional.
Yeah.
But you would expect no less,right?
SPEAKER_01 (19:19):
Yeah.
If you had a crap, learning teamwould be like Wendy.
SPEAKER_00 (19:23):
Right.
I'd love to circle back on thehuman relationship side of
things.
We met with an expert last year,Dwenna Blomstrom.
She talks about this concept ofhuman debt.
And human debt is what happenswhen there's a big disconnect
between these huge technologicaladvances, but then what we lose
sight of are things that reallymatter.
And you've talked about thisyourself, right?
It's purpose at work,connection, relationships,
(19:47):
trust.
We see trust in the toilet thesedays.
So when we think about that, howdo you make sure that stuff
isn't lost?
Like the community buildingpiece that you're building
around learning together is sogreat because I think that feeds
into making sure this human debtdoesn't occur.
But what how do you do that atthe individual level, the team
(20:07):
level, and the org level, makingsure those things stay intact?
SPEAKER_04 (20:12):
Yeah, Mel, this is the million-dollar question.
If you reflect on the last fiveplus years, we've all been
through so much.
It's actually a bit unimaginablethe level of big change that has
happened.
You think about obviously thepandemic and learning to work
(20:33):
remotely and the greatresignation, everyone is
leaving.
And so you crafted programs andapproaches to just keep your
employees in your organization.
And then it felt like on a dime,that's shifted.
And all of a sudden, manyorganizations are struggling
with growth and costs that aretoo high, and suddenly people
(20:57):
aren't moving around, whichactually creates its own
different complexity.
So, in all of that, it's prettyeasy to see that organizations
have eroded community, culture,trust.
And now we're adding on thisunbelievable AI transformation.
(21:17):
And there's no way not toacknowledge that there's a lot
of fear and job insecurity aspart of this transformation for
folks.
So, with that lovely backdrop, Ithink about it, I think every
day.
And I think there's no way thatyou can't do it at every level
of your organization, as yousaid.
(21:38):
So you build trust throughspeaking authentically, through
saying what you mean and doingwhat you say.
And you're gonna do it at theindividual level, you're gonna
do it at the team level, you'regonna do it at the organization.
You're gonna have your purposeand your mission and your
values.
And we need to stay super, supertrue to those.
(22:00):
McKinsey just hit 100 years.
We're celebrating our 100-yearanniversary as a firm.
And we had a big celebrationwith the Global Partner Group a
couple weeks ago in Chicago.
And it's incredible one how manycompanies that you look at that
are 100 years old, and when yousee the names, they embody
(22:21):
something and what they standfor.
And we spent a lot of timecoming back to our values and
talking about the purpose andthe mission of our work and
delivering unbelievable impactfor our clients and an
unbelievable apprenticeship andexperience for our colleagues.
Having people on message and themessage be real and something
(22:42):
the leaders believe in goes along way in navigating the
inevitable amount of changethat's coming our way.
Do I trust you?
Do you care for me?
Do you have my back?
Bringing that full circle.
Will you tell me honestly whatis happening in our organization
when inevitable change is goingto continue to happen?
(23:04):
Will you take care of me whileI'm here?
Will you be generous and takecare of me if we have to part
ways?
I think they're critical thingsto all organizations and to all
leaders.
And it's hard.
It's hard.
unknown (23:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:18):
What advice would you give to a leader who is
maybe struggling with thattoday?
Their direct team is potentiallybeing impacted.
They want them to be optimisticabout what's possible, but also
they don't have all the answers.
So how can they double down oncreating that meaning and
connection and growth for theirpeople?
SPEAKER_04 (23:39):
I think the first thing you can do as a leader for
any of your teams is to makesure you have a connection with
that group and that they knowthat you are an authentic caring
leader.
I think that means you shareinformation as you can.
Doesn't mean you shareeverything all the time.
(24:01):
And that your team knows thatyou're doing your best to speak
the truth and to navigate all ofthis, balancing the needs of the
company with the needs of theemployees, which are your team.
I think you could be prettytransparent when things are
tough and say this is going tobe hard.
I think we can also look for thepositives and do our best to
(24:25):
upskill and to create a safeplace for people to innovate and
play and figure this out.
And you as a leader set the toneon how as those things occur,
how do you navigate them?
How do you support folks aswe're on this journey?
But it's real work.
And we're all really busy.
I think that's the thing.
Like you think this is the workon top of the work, which is
(24:48):
caring for my team.
SPEAKER_01 (24:50):
Yeah.
I I worked with a leader onetime.
I did not give her thisnickname.
She was known as the robot.
And I will tell you that becauseI think the idea of being an
authentic leader and just evenestablishing trust, like your
first two things that you talkedabout, goes so far right now.
Like, are you real?
(25:11):
Do I believe you?
Do I trust you?
Do I trust that you have yourback?
Like, even just sweating that tome, based on what Mel and I are
seeing and hearing, that is sohuge.
SPEAKER_00 (25:23):
We talk a lot about human capabilities becoming more
and more important and reallyleaning into them.
Things like critical thinking,curiosity, resilience, of
course, through all of this.
What do you feel is the onehuman capability that is most
important for people to leaninto?
SPEAKER_04 (25:50):
The one is challenging me.
I think it's a learner'smindset.
Realizing that your experiencehas gotten you to this point.
There's a lot changing.
So how do you continue to learnand grow?
The most important thing thatI'm focusing on is how do I
continue to learn and grow andchange?
(26:12):
Right.
So the learner's mindset assumesthat as you learn, you're going
to change.
That's what I guess I've got.
That's tough.
That's a tough question.
SPEAKER_00 (26:19):
I think you have the perfect answer though, because
it combines all of those things.
You have to be curious.
You have to be okay with notknowing everything.
You have to be okay withfailing, not getting it right.
Like that encompasses a lot.
So I think that's a really goodidea.
SPEAKER_04 (26:33):
Yeah, we haven't said that out loud, but you're
right.
Being able to fail is hard.
And have it be okay for us asindividuals and for teams, that
is a really hard thing to do.
SPEAKER_01 (26:44):
I want to talk about like the next 12 to 18 months
because I'm thinking about someshifts coming.
Obviously, with McKinsey, youall are looking at what's
happening and a lot of futurecasting, forecasting as well.
You are in charge of developingthe people that are doing all of
that at most companies.
What is one shift that you thinkis probably going to be coming
(27:07):
that most leaders and employeesaren't maybe seeing yet or might
not be talking about yet?
What do you think is going to besomething we need to be looking
out for?
I think right now people see itcoming.
SPEAKER_04 (27:18):
They're just not sure what it means, what does it
look like and feel like?
The embedding of technology,flexibility, rewiring functions
is going to be reallydisruptive.
And so I think as you look outto the next 12 to 18 months, we
(27:40):
will all have agents that arepart of the way we work.
And today, most of us probablydo not have agents that are part
of the way we work.
And so getting very comfortablein crafting your team, whether
or not it's a McKinsey teamwhere you go out to serve a
client, and so you're reallyputting that team together, but
even the way you would solve aproblem and the way you would
(28:01):
team in a corporation will feeldifferent.
So I think in the next 12 to 18months, the rewiring, the
identification of your processeswill for many organizations
start to become in place.
It will be there.
And that's not that long whenyou think about how different
that could feel with the way itlooks like you're working.
(28:23):
12 to 18 months is nothing.
What are the org developmentimpacts of that?
That's the million-dollarquestion, I think.
Yeah, I think that there will besome efficiency gains.
I think some of theadministrative areas will go
away.
I think the demands on your moreexperienced colleagues to truly
(28:51):
enable actions and decisions tobe made with even more
information will be critical.
There's a lot of different viewsas to where and how you'll be
more thoughtful about where youhave your organization designed
and how they then enhance thetechnology.
unknown (29:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (29:12):
It will be quite disruptive to org design.
SPEAKER_01 (29:15):
Yeah.
I think we're going to see thesmorgasboard of org design from
people that are like, yeah, agenic.
Let's lay off 4,000 customerservice reps and just use it.
There's the middle ground, andthen there's the how do we think
about the abundance mindset onsome of this stuff to think
about really leveraging ourpeople in a way that we can go
into places where we haven'tbeen before, business lines that
(29:37):
we haven't been able to do.
I think it's going to be hugelydisruptive.
My biggest concern people'sreaction to change is going to
be interesting.
It's going to be interesting.
SPEAKER_04 (29:47):
If we use the performance management tool
example, what's interestingabout us having rolled this out
is that what we've also found isbesides creating efficiency in
the way you do your performance.
Performance reviews, everybodyupskilled a bit in the way they
did the review.
And so it's a nice example ofyour abundance mindset of how do
(30:08):
you use technology to be better.
The evaluator asked morespecific questions and was a bit
more organized because they knewit was being captured by tech.
We're very much aninterview-based performance
feedback culture.
So we take a lot of thedifferent artifacts or kind of
the facts that you would pullinto a review, but then we have
(30:29):
a ton of one-on-one feedbackthat we gather.
And we leaned into thatculturally.
We've tried to lean out of itbefore.
We don't like it.
We like the one-on-one feedback.
So we developed a tool that wasthe part of the review process
that we liked and enabled it ina better way.
But the person being interviewedalso gives a better answer, a
more thoughtful answer becausethey know it's being transcribed
(30:51):
and captured.
And then you spent more timekind of synthesizing that
feedback and thinking aboutokay, what is the so what?
What is the information I wantto give to this person to
perform better, rather thanspending all your time on the
upfront stuff just capturing theinformation?
It's been really pretty cool towatch.
It's what you want to havehappen when you think about how
(31:13):
do we all reinvest the time thatwe get in the savings of the
efficiency of AI into doing thejob better.
1000%.
SPEAKER_01 (31:21):
That's an amazing example because A, it's being
held true to the promise of whatperformance management should
be, which is helping youdevelop, helping you get better.
And also in that, gettingpeople's ability to give really
robust feedback that actuallyenables you to do that.
And in a process that's easierfor the person to do it, it's
one, two, three.
Damn.
SPEAKER_04 (31:40):
The team has been at it for a while.
And that's the thing.
Like it's real work to pull thistogether.
Yeah.
And yeah, just a real shout outto the team.
You can imagine there was a fairamount of resistance.
The performance management ofour colleagues is what we do.
It's such a sacrosanct processfor us.
And so we boldly took it headon.
I'm proud of the work they did.
unknown (32:01):
Should be.
SPEAKER_04 (32:02):
It's awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (32:12):
We like to do a little get to know the human
side of you.
Are you up for a quick rapidround?
I sure am.
Awesome.
Okay, it's 2030.
What's work going to look like?
SPEAKER_04 (32:24):
Work is rapidly changing, as we all know.
And so I think it's going tolook a lot like an acceleration
of the last two years.
And we're going to lean intotechnology and automation, and
it'll become even more furtherembedded into the way we work.
And I think human connectionsand meaning and purpose will
(32:47):
have hopefully just as much of apart of the workforce and the
way we work as it does today.
Maybe even more so.
I hope I hope so.
I do too.
I think we could take anoptimistic view or we could take
a negative view.
I think if you take theoptimistic view, human
connection is more intentional.
And you will have to embed thatinto your day and to just be a
(33:10):
little bit more thoughtful abouthow about how you connect with
people.
SPEAKER_00 (33:12):
I like it.
SPEAKER_04 (33:12):
I like to see it.
SPEAKER_00 (33:13):
I am an optimist at heart.
So I believe we will get there.
I do.
What's one thing about corporateculture you'd like to see just
die already?
SPEAKER_04 (33:23):
I would really love for us to all have more of a
through-cycle mindset and toremember like there are these
core strengths and values thatorganizations have and that we
need to rely on.
And so to navigate this changinglandscape, but with a long-term
view versus a short-term view.
SPEAKER_00 (33:41):
What's the greatest opportunity that you think most
orgs are missing out on rightnow?
SPEAKER_04 (33:46):
They're missing out on a way to take all of this
change and to have it be anopportunity where you look at
ways you've worked or processesyou've had in place that haven't
been working.
And can we use this technologyand AI revolution as a way to
empower your organization to dothings in a better way?
(34:07):
And so rather than it being fearand efficiency, it's upskilling,
it's improving the way we work,it's improving the way we serve
our clients and our customers.
And I think we're missing theopportunity to balance the
change and make it somethingthat is exciting for folks.
SPEAKER_00 (34:26):
All right, I'm gonna switch to get a little more
personal.
That's okay.
More about you.
What music are you listening toright now?
SPEAKER_04 (34:36):
So I listen to all the things that my 19-year-old
daughter sends me.
She knows I'm a Swifty at heartand I do like to play things on
repeat.
But I've been pretty intriguedwith the new Olivia Dean music
that's out there.
Okay.
But yes, she tries to keep me alittle bit hip and a little bit
cool.
It's a pretty heavy lift, quitehonestly.
SPEAKER_01 (34:57):
But she's trying.
I give her the credit fortrying.
When you have a song you love,you just play it over and over
again.
Are you that person?
I do.
SPEAKER_04 (35:05):
I do.
I actually do the whole albumand then I find comfort in the
repeat.
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (35:12):
Yeah.
unknown (35:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:13):
Same.
No more shuffle.
What uh what are you reading?
Audiobooks included.
SPEAKER_04 (35:18):
I'm an old school paperback, like a book person.
I also think that my day isbetter if I'm reading a book and
really engaged in a book.
I just finished Covenant ofWater, which was just an
unbelievable undertaking, but abeautifully written novel.
And the book that's on mynightstand right now is this
(35:38):
remarkably bright creatures,which, if you all haven't heard
about it, one of the maincharacters is an octopus.
But people love it.
So I'm about a quarter of theway through.
Oh man.
SPEAKER_01 (35:49):
Did you see that movie, like My Friend the
Octopus or whatever that thingis called?
I have not seen it, butapparently it's quite sad.
Oh Jesus, I can't even talkabout it.
SPEAKER_04 (35:59):
I'm like, I'll add it to my list.
Yes.
The people, when you say you'rereading this book, they then
ask, they and recommend the it'sa documentary, right?
It's true.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Who knew that octopuses could beyour friend?
That was that's really good.
SPEAKER_01 (36:15):
Yeah, no more calamari.
Just absolutely no morecalamari.
Not happening.
SPEAKER_04 (36:20):
Who do you really admire?
Um, I love this question.
I admire my parents, and itmakes me so proud to be able to
say that, and also to feel solucky to be able to say that.
My mom and dad, I have onesister.
They really role modeled whatdoes it look like to work hard,
(36:40):
stay true to your values, andpersevere through all the things
that life can give you.
They pushed my sister and I todream big, be bold, take
chances.
And I think the gift that theygave us, which is an incredible
gift, is that you always knew nomatter what happened that they
had your back and that you hadtheir support.
(37:03):
And life is better when you knowsomebody has your back.
I admire them, and I really hopethat my kids would say that
about me someday too.
SPEAKER_01 (37:14):
That's lovely.
SPEAKER_00 (37:15):
That's really nice.
It sounds like they will.
Your daughter's tracking you.
Yeah, yeah, she is, exactly.
All right, what's one piece ofadvice you wish everyone knew?
SPEAKER_04 (37:28):
I think the piece of advice that I wish people knew
is that it it takesintentionality to build a rich,
full life.
And life is full of lots ofchapters.
So you have hopefully a reallylong journey to be able to do
lots of interesting things.
(37:49):
So I wish people would thinkthrough what is the life that
I'm looking to build and whatare the choices that I'm gonna
make at various points so that Ibuild that life.
And we all have more control ofthose choices than I think at
times we think.
unknown (38:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (38:08):
That's easy to forget the free will that you
have to do that.
Maybe close on something fun andnot to put you on the spot.
But I like daily mantras.
I put a new sticky on my laptopkeyboard every morning.
What's my mantra of the day?
What's a mantra about this thatyou'd like to leave everyone
with that they can repeat forthemselves?
SPEAKER_04 (38:26):
Be bold, be fearless, have fun.
SPEAKER_00 (38:31):
Like it.
All right.
With that, thank you, Wendy.
This episode was produced,edited, and all things by us,
myself, Mel Flett, and FrancescaReneri.
Our music is by Pink Zebra.
And if you like thisconversation and you want to
(38:54):
contribute your thoughts withus, please do.
You can visit us atyourworkfriends.com.
But you can also join us over onLinkedIn, join us in the
socials.
And if you like this and you'vebenefited from this episode, and
you think somebody else canbenefit from this episode,
please rate and subscribe.
We'd really appreciate it.
That helps keep us going.
Take care, friends.
(39:15):
Bye, friends.
Can we use this technology and AI revolution as
(00:04):
a way to empower yourorganization to do things in a
better way?
SPEAKER_00 (00:24):
Welcome to your work friends.
I'm Mel Platt.
And I'm Francesca Reneri.
And we break down the now andnext of work.
So you stay ahead.
What's going on?
SPEAKER_01 (00:34):
Nothing much.
Nothing much at all.
I already put my Christmas treeup.
Tis the season.
Yeah.
2025 has been the year whereNovember 1st the Christmas tree
goes up.
SPEAKER_00 (00:43):
We gotta create our magic.
Francesca, who did we sit downwith this week?
SPEAKER_01 (00:48):
We sat down with Wendy Miller.
She is the chief HR officer forNorth America for McKinsey.
And we talked about balancing AIambition with reality.
Here's the deal AI promises alot.
Like a lot.
And every week it's somethingelse.
But more than ever, it's apromising thing like efficiency,
productivity.
(01:09):
But work also runs on thingslike trust, connection, and
human relationships.
The real question isn't just howfast we adopt AI, it's how we
balance ambition with reality,timelines, people, humanity.
So we sat down with WendyMiller.
We wanted to talk to her abouthow she thinks about balancing
AI ambition and reality forherself, for leaders, for
(01:34):
organizations and employees, andwhat we should be paying
attention to right now.
Mel, what did you think aboutthis conversation?
SPEAKER_00 (01:40):
I loved it because one, just getting insights from
Wendy, who is in the know, Iwould say, but in the real world
examples, she's sharing aroundwhat McKinsey is testing and
learning and trying, and justreally sharing the vulnerability
around we're all learningsomething and being open to that
is is a we're in a unique spaceand we should enjoy it.
(02:01):
So it was a positive, I feel,constructive message to share
with some really good insightsfor those who are also
exploring.
SPEAKER_01 (02:08):
Yeah.
And Wendy is one of those peopletoo you just want to hang out
with.
100%.
And with that, here's Wendy.
SPEAKER_00 (02:26):
Okay.
We are excited to have you here,Wendy.
Yeah, I'm excited to be here.
We're talking about AI and theacceleration of AI.
It's moving super fast, and fromyour seat, you've got like a
front row seat to what'shappening.
What does it really look like onthe ground?
SPEAKER_04 (02:45):
I think it looks pretty chaotic, is what I would
tell you.
The speed of innovation and thespeed of adoption in the last
six months is incredible.
I heard someone say that largelanguage modules have learned
more in the last six weeks thanthey had in the last six years.
Usage is just so much higher.
(03:07):
And it obviously, the more youuse it, the more the AI becomes
better.
And so on the ground, what itrequires is for all of us to get
comfortable with things being alittle clunky, right?
So as you bring on a new tooland you're changing the process
and you're identifying theprocess and you're upskilling
your organization to becomfortable with the technology,
(03:29):
that's a lot of disruption atthe same time.
We were on this journey aroundidentifying our performance
management systems.
And we rolled out a tool that wecall evaluator aid.
And it allows for you to runthrough the entire performance
management of collecting theinformation, pulling in the
other resources and other factsthat you might have in someone's
(03:51):
performance review, collectingthat information, synthesizing
it, and starting to help youiterate on what a feedback memo
would look like.
We're 18 months into thatjourney.
A year ago, the tool was verymediocre.
The tool, this performancecycle, has been so much better.
And yet we still have so muchmore to do.
(04:12):
And so I think all of us have tohave a mindset where you're
working with something, you'regiving improvements and be much
more agile.
We love to use that word, butfor each human, that's a lot to
continue to navigate.
So I think it's exciting.
I think there's a lot of growthand potential for all of us to
(04:32):
learn new skills.
And we have to remember thatsometimes that feels pretty
challenging.
SPEAKER_00 (04:38):
What we're seeing in a lot of organizations from
folks that we're talking toevery day, and then obviously
the headlines and what we hearfrom people in multiple
organizations is they're told goout and use it and not getting a
ton of guidance around it, getthese efficiencies, see how it
works.
And so, how do you get them tobalance all of that change, but
(04:59):
also have fun in the process tosee what's possible?
SPEAKER_04 (05:04):
I think it's really hard.
I think setting the vision ofwhere this will go and the
potential for change is still avision that many people can't
quite articulate.
And that then leads to peoplesaying, hey, take the tools,
start to play with them and seewhat you can come up with.
(05:28):
That's where actually a lot ofthe innovation is happening,
right?
At the ground level, here areprocesses that I'm doing today
that even maybe senior folksdon't understand how hard they
are to do or how much time theytake.
And that is an interestingapproach and a good one.
Have people on the ground startto experiment and come up with
ideas.
And I think you have to leaninto this as a new way of
(05:50):
working in a way that you usedto maybe know exactly what
you're going to do every day.
And how do I innovate?
How do I bring a change mindsetto things?
How do I share and communicatewith other people?
We have found that creatingcommunities that share the
learnings and putting out, hey,this worked for me, you try it.
(06:12):
Personal life and professionallife, but that's where a lot of
people are learning on theground.
Oh, I did it this way, so Icould try it over here too.
But that isn't been the waywe've been working together over
the last ever, quite honestly.
Some people on innovation teamsknow how to come together and
bring different people fromdifferent parts of your
organization to then innovate ona process or a product.
(06:37):
But your HR organization hasn'tbeen your innovation center, per
se, right?
Like we've been rolling out anddoing the things that we do and
keeping things steady and nomistakes kind of atmosphere is
what people would like to sayabout your HR processes.
And so now what you're sayingis, hey, go play with this and
(06:57):
get it close to right, and we'llsee and we'll make it better.
But that is actually a prettydifferent way of thinking.
SPEAKER_00 (07:04):
Yeah, there's it seems to be like this huge push
for speed to adoption.
You've been thoughtful in thatperformance management.
I love that example because it'sonly gotten better over time,
and then there's still room forimprovement.
And so there's like this needfor speed.
But as I think Francesca, one ofmy favorite things you always
say is go slow to go fast.
It's one of my favorite things.
(07:25):
So in this moment, there's areal cost potentially for speed.
So, what's that cost if you aretrying to focus more on adoption
versus impact?
SPEAKER_04 (07:35):
I think if you go fast and go big, then the
mistakes are more costly.
And I also think that if youfail in a large way, it is too
public and will stop some of theinnovation.
And the thing about AI is how doyou create like smaller pockets
(08:00):
with some boundaries on them sothat you can experiment in a
smaller way and you can iterateand make the process better and
deal with the mistakes, but allin something that you can get
your arms around.
And the challenge with the pushfor speed and the push for
efficiency is like how quicklycan you get this innovation and
(08:22):
the AI into a spot where you getthe efficiencies out and the
gains across your organization?
So you're balancing those twothings, but while you process
rewire, you culturally rewire,you upscale your organization.
So I do think it's a go smaller,but go fast, smaller, and learn
and then roll it out, which Ithink the best of the best are
(08:46):
doing.
SPEAKER_00 (08:46):
Yeah.
From your own journey, what aresome blind spots you would
advise executives or people tolook out for with AI?
SPEAKER_04 (08:55):
From an organization perspective, the blind spot that
I see is that all of this iscoming that much of this could
come out of your IT or from yourCIO.
And that it could feel like uhall tech all the time in the way
you identify your organization.
And I think what we know forsure is that there's a
(09:17):
human-centric side to this andan organization process design
side to the transformations thatneed to happen.
And so you need to think aboutwho is that team that is rolling
this out and thinking aboutrewiring a function and ensure
that it is tech in partnershipwith the business leader or the
HR leader so that you can thinkabout doing this in a much more
(09:40):
holistic way for yourorganization.
And the challenge is I'll justspeak for myself and is I don't
think anyone would have calledme a tech savvy leader six
months ago.
And I didn't even think I neededto be a tech savvy leader.
I know you need to be a businessleader.
That to me has been true.
(10:01):
I think HR professionals arebetter when they are partnered
with the business and understandthe key drivers of success and
performance for yourorganization.
It's probably a very obviousthing to say, but we should, I
think we all should dig deeperinto what is the performance of
our organization and what arethe key drivers that matter.
But tech has become one ofthose, and AI has become one of
(10:23):
those very quickly.
And so my challenge to myself isto become much more comfortable
and AI savvy.
And it's hard.
I've got established habits andprocesses and the way I like to
work.
And so again, you have to stepback and try to rethink some of
the things that have worked formy for the entirety of my career
(10:43):
and think, could I do thisdifferently?
I'm meeting with someone whochallenges me and pushes me.
Trying to do it on your own isone way, but finding someone who
can help you think about it andchange once you've been doing
something for a while.
It's nice to have somebody thatcan just offer some new ideas.
SPEAKER_00 (11:01):
Yeah.
Better together.
SPEAKER_04 (11:03):
Better together for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (11:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (11:06):
It's interesting too.
I'm looking at like the ModernaCHRO is now the CIO as well.
They put tech under her inaddition to HR, which to me
signals we're thinking about AIas quote unquote part of that
resource in human resources.
And so it begs a veryinteresting question around like
org design and everything else.
(11:27):
When you think about the techpiece, it's just, and it's all
moving so quickly.
All this is going on from acultural perspective, a tech
perspective, an org designperspective.
And to your very good point, alot of the AI, especially right
now, it's every quarter there'ssome big update.
Yes.
And that's really hard to dothese like big cultural
transformations and big orgdesign changes when it's all
(11:49):
changing so quickly.
I've never seen speed like thisin my life.
SPEAKER_04 (11:53):
I agree.
I totally agree.
I think we all are gonna have tolearn how to iterate a little
bit faster.
And that's hard on your people.
That's really hard on yourpeople when their roles are
changing and evolving.
You have agents that are part ofthe design of the organization.
Tech will just be embedded.
Now, for organizations likeMcKinsey, where we bring in a
(12:16):
pretty healthy-sized group ofkids coming out of undergrad or
their MBAs or early in theirprofessional careers, that group
will be tech savvy.
So the bottom is going to pushus quick to say there are better
ways to do this, there arefaster ways to do this.
That generation will have AI aspart of the portfolio of how
(12:39):
they work every day.
And I think we'll learn a lotfrom them.
SPEAKER_01 (13:02):
It's all dead.
And then you have other peoplethat are saying this is gonna be
the best thing on the face ofthe planet.
AI is gonna allow you to go backto farming.
I don't know why every freakinganalogy with every futurist is,
oh, we're all gonna be able toplant our own vegetables.
I'm like, what the hell is goingon with the farming analogy?
Yes.
I mean writing.
SPEAKER_03 (13:24):
But it is really hard work.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (13:27):
Yes.
A thousand percent.
Like it's incredibly hard work.
Also, like I'm not even gonnatalk about the state of farmers
right now.
So it's just this is I don'tknow if this is the analogy we
want to go with.
Maybe we go with candle makingor we're making donuts.
But if you're a manager, ifyou're a leader, if you're in an
organization, you're gonna haveemplo some employees that are
(13:48):
gonna see this as awesome,massive opportunity LFG.
And then you're gonna have someother folks that are just like,
this is taking my job.
And I don't want to touch it.
Or if you're leading a team or acompany to keep people at least
engaged or not freaked out.
What's the play there?
SPEAKER_04 (14:08):
I think we're all learning how to do this as we
go, quite honestly.
It's such a disruptor for folks,and depending on where you are
in what role you play, and yourown ability to work from a place
of confidence or a place offear, I think you'll react a
little differently.
I think overall you you canallow people to not opt in and
(14:31):
to learn how to work in thisway.
I think it is a huge mistake.
And ignoring that this ishappening and doing your job the
way you used to do it is amistake.
Will it create someefficiencies?
Will some roles go away?
They will.
Will we still need real leaders,the human touch?
(14:52):
We'll need judgment, we'll needfolks that can think beyond the
rule and create the exception.
We'll need leaders that canprovide the care and the
insight.
So if I was in the camp of notengaging in this, I am missing
out on how to understand howthis works and to upskill myself
(15:13):
because we're gonna want folksthat are truly adding value on
top of AI.
But I think it's challenging,right?
There are definitely folks thatare in roles where you go, this
is a pretty administrative role,and all anyone is telling me is
that it goes away.
If I was in that type of role, Iwould be asking myself, where
can I uniquely add value?
(15:35):
And what can I do so that I takethe efficiency of AI and then I,
Wendy, personally make itbetter.
And I think you should talk tosomebody and think it through.
And exactly what I said aboutthe one-on-one.
Sometimes it's hard to see theopportunities that you have in
your own role because you're soentrenched in your day-to-day.
(15:58):
Have somebody hold a mirror upto it, ask some questions,
brainstorm, be curious.
I'm not trying to act likethat's easy, by the way.
SPEAKER_01 (16:07):
I'm not.
It's not easy to do, but that isthe good advice, right?
There's a couple things I thinkabout with this.
One is I think everyone ownstheir own career.
They own their own development.
Like at the end of the day, ifyou're taking a long view in the
long arc of your life, to yourvery good point about
intentionality, that starts withowning it.
And I think part of that startswith how can you be more curious
(16:27):
and that sort of thing.
There is another component atthe organizational level around
the organization'sresponsibility to upskill or to
reskill.
We were having conversations 10years ago about starting to at
least upskill our folks on AIliteracy, cloud, blockchain.
Like, what is the blockchain?
I still don't know how toexplain what the hell the
(16:49):
blockchain is as opposed to aledger.
I'm like, it's a ledger, but Ioh, it's fine.
Anyway, it's a good, it's a goodexample.
It's a good example.
It's like how do you explainthis?
But how do we be literate?
Like we started this 10 yearsago, but we are in triage.
Organizations are in triageright now.
What does practical reskillinglook like at the organizational
level right now?
(17:09):
What is the good play here?
SPEAKER_04 (17:12):
I think you've got to do both.
So I 100% agree with you.
Like we own our own developmentand we should all feel empowered
to take charge of that.
There are a ton of resources nowavailable for free online that
you could learn a lot.
And then obviously, people isour business.
Our client success is in isbecause of the people that we
(17:35):
bring in and how robustly wetrain and upskill and apprentice
them.
We're doing a lotorganizationally on top of it.
There are learning programs youcan join.
There are small groups, there'sone-on-one support, but we are
trying to create an environmentwhere there's in any way in
which you learn, you could goand find the resources to help
(17:57):
you.
It's not perfect.
That too is something like ourlearning and development people
are running as fast as they canto create the programs, to roll
them out and to get them infront of folks.
The small group to me, thesharing within a community and
just even creating the space.
(18:18):
We created a Slack channel forpeople to share ideas.
We've created learning forumswhere you come together and you
just spend an hour on Zoom andpeople talk about how they're
using AI.
There's a lot of that isactually pretty cool and pretty
easy to do.
And you don't even need yourorganization to do it, quite
honestly.
You could find 10 friends andsay, okay, we're going to hold
ourselves accountable to do thistogether.
(18:41):
Because don't you think likeanything else?
Like you know you're supposed tolearn it and you're supposed to
be curious and play, and thenyour day gets busy and you're
trying to get through what's onyour plate.
And it's like exercise.
Like I know I should exercise,but if I have a buddy who's
holding me accountable toexercising, I'm more likely to
do it.
But we're all running at thispretty hard and pretty fast, is
(19:03):
what it feels like today to me.
SPEAKER_01 (19:05):
Yeah.
And I gotta say, McKinsey'slearning team, we know those
people over there.
You got a great learning teamover there.
Yeah.
Yes, we have an exceptionallearning team.
SPEAKER_04 (19:15):
They are exceptional.
Yeah.
But you would expect no less,right?
SPEAKER_01 (19:19):
Yeah.
If you had a crap, learning teamwould be like Wendy.
SPEAKER_00 (19:23):
Right.
I'd love to circle back on thehuman relationship side of
things.
We met with an expert last year,Dwenna Blomstrom.
She talks about this concept ofhuman debt.
And human debt is what happenswhen there's a big disconnect
between these huge technologicaladvances, but then what we lose
sight of are things that reallymatter.
And you've talked about thisyourself, right?
It's purpose at work,connection, relationships,
(19:47):
trust.
We see trust in the toilet thesedays.
So when we think about that, howdo you make sure that stuff
isn't lost?
Like the community buildingpiece that you're building
around learning together is sogreat because I think that feeds
into making sure this human debtdoesn't occur.
But what how do you do that atthe individual level, the team
(20:07):
level, and the org level, makingsure those things stay intact?
SPEAKER_04 (20:12):
Yeah, Mel, this is the million-dollar question.
If you reflect on the last fiveplus years, we've all been
through so much.
It's actually a bit unimaginablethe level of big change that has
happened.
You think about obviously thepandemic and learning to work
(20:33):
remotely and the greatresignation, everyone is
leaving.
And so you crafted programs andapproaches to just keep your
employees in your organization.
And then it felt like on a dime,that's shifted.
And all of a sudden, manyorganizations are struggling
with growth and costs that aretoo high, and suddenly people
(20:57):
aren't moving around, whichactually creates its own
different complexity.
So, in all of that, it's prettyeasy to see that organizations
have eroded community, culture,trust.
And now we're adding on thisunbelievable AI transformation.
(21:17):
And there's no way not toacknowledge that there's a lot
of fear and job insecurity aspart of this transformation for
folks.
So, with that lovely backdrop, Ithink about it, I think every
day.
And I think there's no way thatyou can't do it at every level
of your organization, as yousaid.
(21:38):
So you build trust throughspeaking authentically, through
saying what you mean and doingwhat you say.
And you're gonna do it at theindividual level, you're gonna
do it at the team level, you'regonna do it at the organization.
You're gonna have your purposeand your mission and your
values.
And we need to stay super, supertrue to those.
(22:00):
McKinsey just hit 100 years.
We're celebrating our 100-yearanniversary as a firm.
And we had a big celebrationwith the Global Partner Group a
couple weeks ago in Chicago.
And it's incredible one how manycompanies that you look at that
are 100 years old, and when yousee the names, they embody
(22:21):
something and what they standfor.
And we spent a lot of timecoming back to our values and
talking about the purpose andthe mission of our work and
delivering unbelievable impactfor our clients and an
unbelievable apprenticeship andexperience for our colleagues.
Having people on message and themessage be real and something
(22:42):
the leaders believe in goes along way in navigating the
inevitable amount of changethat's coming our way.
Do I trust you?
Do you care for me?
Do you have my back?
Bringing that full circle.
Will you tell me honestly whatis happening in our organization
when inevitable change is goingto continue to happen?
(23:04):
Will you take care of me whileI'm here?
Will you be generous and takecare of me if we have to part
ways?
I think they're critical thingsto all organizations and to all
leaders.
And it's hard.
It's hard.
unknown (23:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:18):
What advice would you give to a leader who is
maybe struggling with thattoday?
Their direct team is potentiallybeing impacted.
They want them to be optimisticabout what's possible, but also
they don't have all the answers.
So how can they double down oncreating that meaning and
connection and growth for theirpeople?
SPEAKER_04 (23:39):
I think the first thing you can do as a leader for
any of your teams is to makesure you have a connection with
that group and that they knowthat you are an authentic caring
leader.
I think that means you shareinformation as you can.
Doesn't mean you shareeverything all the time.
(24:01):
And that your team knows thatyou're doing your best to speak
the truth and to navigate all ofthis, balancing the needs of the
company with the needs of theemployees, which are your team.
I think you could be prettytransparent when things are
tough and say this is going tobe hard.
I think we can also look for thepositives and do our best to
(24:25):
upskill and to create a safeplace for people to innovate and
play and figure this out.
And you as a leader set the toneon how as those things occur,
how do you navigate them?
How do you support folks aswe're on this journey?
But it's real work.
And we're all really busy.
I think that's the thing.
Like you think this is the workon top of the work, which is
(24:48):
caring for my team.
SPEAKER_01 (24:50):
Yeah.
I I worked with a leader onetime.
I did not give her thisnickname.
She was known as the robot.
And I will tell you that becauseI think the idea of being an
authentic leader and just evenestablishing trust, like your
first two things that you talkedabout, goes so far right now.
Like, are you real?
(25:11):
Do I believe you?
Do I trust you?
Do I trust that you have yourback?
Like, even just sweating that tome, based on what Mel and I are
seeing and hearing, that is sohuge.
SPEAKER_00 (25:23):
We talk a lot about human capabilities becoming more
and more important and reallyleaning into them.
Things like critical thinking,curiosity, resilience, of
course, through all of this.
What do you feel is the onehuman capability that is most
important for people to leaninto?
SPEAKER_04 (25:50):
The one is challenging me.
I think it's a learner'smindset.
Realizing that your experiencehas gotten you to this point.
There's a lot changing.
So how do you continue to learnand grow?
The most important thing thatI'm focusing on is how do I
continue to learn and grow andchange?
(26:12):
Right.
So the learner's mindset assumesthat as you learn, you're going
to change.
That's what I guess I've got.
That's tough.
That's a tough question.
SPEAKER_00 (26:19):
I think you have the perfect answer though, because
it combines all of those things.
You have to be curious.
You have to be okay with notknowing everything.
You have to be okay withfailing, not getting it right.
Like that encompasses a lot.
So I think that's a really goodidea.
SPEAKER_04 (26:33):
Yeah, we haven't said that out loud, but you're
right.
Being able to fail is hard.
And have it be okay for us asindividuals and for teams, that
is a really hard thing to do.
SPEAKER_01 (26:44):
I want to talk about like the next 12 to 18 months
because I'm thinking about someshifts coming.
Obviously, with McKinsey, youall are looking at what's
happening and a lot of futurecasting, forecasting as well.
You are in charge of developingthe people that are doing all of
that at most companies.
What is one shift that you thinkis probably going to be coming
(27:07):
that most leaders and employeesaren't maybe seeing yet or might
not be talking about yet?
What do you think is going to besomething we need to be looking
out for?
I think right now people see itcoming.
SPEAKER_04 (27:18):
They're just not sure what it means, what does it
look like and feel like?
The embedding of technology,flexibility, rewiring functions
is going to be reallydisruptive.
And so I think as you look outto the next 12 to 18 months, we
(27:40):
will all have agents that arepart of the way we work.
And today, most of us probablydo not have agents that are part
of the way we work.
And so getting very comfortablein crafting your team, whether
or not it's a McKinsey teamwhere you go out to serve a
client, and so you're reallyputting that team together, but
even the way you would solve aproblem and the way you would
(28:01):
team in a corporation will feeldifferent.
So I think in the next 12 to 18months, the rewiring, the
identification of your processeswill for many organizations
start to become in place.
It will be there.
And that's not that long whenyou think about how different
that could feel with the way itlooks like you're working.
(28:23):
12 to 18 months is nothing.
What are the org developmentimpacts of that?
That's the million-dollarquestion, I think.
Yeah, I think that there will besome efficiency gains.
I think some of theadministrative areas will go
away.
I think the demands on your moreexperienced colleagues to truly
(28:51):
enable actions and decisions tobe made with even more
information will be critical.
There's a lot of different viewsas to where and how you'll be
more thoughtful about where youhave your organization designed
and how they then enhance thetechnology.
unknown (29:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (29:12):
It will be quite disruptive to org design.
SPEAKER_01 (29:15):
Yeah.
I think we're going to see thesmorgasboard of org design from
people that are like, yeah, agenic.
Let's lay off 4,000 customerservice reps and just use it.
There's the middle ground, andthen there's the how do we think
about the abundance mindset onsome of this stuff to think
about really leveraging ourpeople in a way that we can go
into places where we haven'tbeen before, business lines that
(29:37):
we haven't been able to do.
I think it's going to be hugelydisruptive.
My biggest concern people'sreaction to change is going to
be interesting.
It's going to be interesting.
SPEAKER_04 (29:47):
If we use the performance management tool
example, what's interestingabout us having rolled this out
is that what we've also found isbesides creating efficiency in
the way you do your performance.
Performance reviews, everybodyupskilled a bit in the way they
did the review.
And so it's a nice example ofyour abundance mindset of how do
(30:08):
you use technology to be better.
The evaluator asked morespecific questions and was a bit
more organized because they knewit was being captured by tech.
We're very much aninterview-based performance
feedback culture.
So we take a lot of thedifferent artifacts or kind of
the facts that you would pullinto a review, but then we have
(30:29):
a ton of one-on-one feedbackthat we gather.
And we leaned into thatculturally.
We've tried to lean out of itbefore.
We don't like it.
We like the one-on-one feedback.
So we developed a tool that wasthe part of the review process
that we liked and enabled it ina better way.
But the person being interviewedalso gives a better answer, a
more thoughtful answer becausethey know it's being transcribed
(30:51):
and captured.
And then you spent more timekind of synthesizing that
feedback and thinking aboutokay, what is the so what?
What is the information I wantto give to this person to
perform better, rather thanspending all your time on the
upfront stuff just capturing theinformation?
It's been really pretty cool towatch.
It's what you want to havehappen when you think about how
(31:13):
do we all reinvest the time thatwe get in the savings of the
efficiency of AI into doing thejob better.
1000%.
SPEAKER_01 (31:21):
That's an amazing example because A, it's being
held true to the promise of whatperformance management should
be, which is helping youdevelop, helping you get better.
And also in that, gettingpeople's ability to give really
robust feedback that actuallyenables you to do that.
And in a process that's easierfor the person to do it, it's
one, two, three.
Damn.
SPEAKER_04 (31:40):
The team has been at it for a while.
And that's the thing.
Like it's real work to pull thistogether.
Yeah.
And yeah, just a real shout outto the team.
You can imagine there was a fairamount of resistance.
The performance management ofour colleagues is what we do.
It's such a sacrosanct processfor us.
And so we boldly took it headon.
I'm proud of the work they did.
unknown (32:01):
Should be.
SPEAKER_04 (32:02):
It's awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (32:12):
We like to do a little get to know the human
side of you.
Are you up for a quick rapidround?
I sure am.
Awesome.
Okay, it's 2030.
What's work going to look like?
SPEAKER_04 (32:24):
Work is rapidly changing, as we all know.
And so I think it's going tolook a lot like an acceleration
of the last two years.
And we're going to lean intotechnology and automation, and
it'll become even more furtherembedded into the way we work.
And I think human connectionsand meaning and purpose will
(32:47):
have hopefully just as much of apart of the workforce and the
way we work as it does today.
Maybe even more so.
I hope I hope so.
I do too.
I think we could take anoptimistic view or we could take
a negative view.
I think if you take theoptimistic view, human
connection is more intentional.
And you will have to embed thatinto your day and to just be a
(33:10):
little bit more thoughtful abouthow about how you connect with
people.
SPEAKER_00 (33:12):
I like it.
SPEAKER_04 (33:12):
I like to see it.
SPEAKER_00 (33:13):
I am an optimist at heart.
So I believe we will get there.
I do.
What's one thing about corporateculture you'd like to see just
die already?
SPEAKER_04 (33:23):
I would really love for us to all have more of a
through-cycle mindset and toremember like there are these
core strengths and values thatorganizations have and that we
need to rely on.
And so to navigate this changinglandscape, but with a long-term
view versus a short-term view.
SPEAKER_00 (33:41):
What's the greatest opportunity that you think most
orgs are missing out on rightnow?
SPEAKER_04 (33:46):
They're missing out on a way to take all of this
change and to have it be anopportunity where you look at
ways you've worked or processesyou've had in place that haven't
been working.
And can we use this technologyand AI revolution as a way to
empower your organization to dothings in a better way?
(34:07):
And so rather than it being fearand efficiency, it's upskilling,
it's improving the way we work,it's improving the way we serve
our clients and our customers.
And I think we're missing theopportunity to balance the
change and make it somethingthat is exciting for folks.
SPEAKER_00 (34:26):
All right, I'm gonna switch to get a little more
personal.
That's okay.
More about you.
What music are you listening toright now?
SPEAKER_04 (34:36):
So I listen to all the things that my 19-year-old
daughter sends me.
She knows I'm a Swifty at heartand I do like to play things on
repeat.
But I've been pretty intriguedwith the new Olivia Dean music
that's out there.
Okay.
But yes, she tries to keep me alittle bit hip and a little bit
cool.
It's a pretty heavy lift, quitehonestly.
SPEAKER_01 (34:57):
But she's trying.
I give her the credit fortrying.
When you have a song you love,you just play it over and over
again.
Are you that person?
I do.
SPEAKER_04 (35:05):
I do.
I actually do the whole albumand then I find comfort in the
repeat.
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (35:12):
Yeah.
unknown (35:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:13):
Same.
No more shuffle.
What uh what are you reading?
Audiobooks included.
SPEAKER_04 (35:18):
I'm an old school paperback, like a book person.
I also think that my day isbetter if I'm reading a book and
really engaged in a book.
I just finished Covenant ofWater, which was just an
unbelievable undertaking, but abeautifully written novel.
And the book that's on mynightstand right now is this
(35:38):
remarkably bright creatures,which, if you all haven't heard
about it, one of the maincharacters is an octopus.
But people love it.
So I'm about a quarter of theway through.
Oh man.
SPEAKER_01 (35:49):
Did you see that movie, like My Friend the
Octopus or whatever that thingis called?
I have not seen it, butapparently it's quite sad.
Oh Jesus, I can't even talkabout it.
SPEAKER_04 (35:59):
I'm like, I'll add it to my list.
Yes.
The people, when you say you'rereading this book, they then
ask, they and recommend the it'sa documentary, right?
It's true.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Who knew that octopuses could beyour friend?
That was that's really good.
SPEAKER_01 (36:15):
Yeah, no more calamari.
Just absolutely no morecalamari.
Not happening.
SPEAKER_04 (36:20):
Who do you really admire?
Um, I love this question.
I admire my parents, and itmakes me so proud to be able to
say that, and also to feel solucky to be able to say that.
My mom and dad, I have onesister.
They really role modeled whatdoes it look like to work hard,
(36:40):
stay true to your values, andpersevere through all the things
that life can give you.
They pushed my sister and I todream big, be bold, take
chances.
And I think the gift that theygave us, which is an incredible
gift, is that you always knew nomatter what happened that they
had your back and that you hadtheir support.
(37:03):
And life is better when you knowsomebody has your back.
I admire them, and I really hopethat my kids would say that
about me someday too.
SPEAKER_01 (37:14):
That's lovely.
SPEAKER_00 (37:15):
That's really nice.
It sounds like they will.
Your daughter's tracking you.
Yeah, yeah, she is, exactly.
All right, what's one piece ofadvice you wish everyone knew?
SPEAKER_04 (37:28):
I think the piece of advice that I wish people knew
is that it it takesintentionality to build a rich,
full life.
And life is full of lots ofchapters.
So you have hopefully a reallylong journey to be able to do
lots of interesting things.
(37:49):
So I wish people would thinkthrough what is the life that
I'm looking to build and whatare the choices that I'm gonna
make at various points so that Ibuild that life.
And we all have more control ofthose choices than I think at
times we think.
unknown (38:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (38:08):
That's easy to forget the free will that you
have to do that.
Maybe close on something fun andnot to put you on the spot.
But I like daily mantras.
I put a new sticky on my laptopkeyboard every morning.
What's my mantra of the day?
What's a mantra about this thatyou'd like to leave everyone
with that they can repeat forthemselves?
SPEAKER_04 (38:26):
Be bold, be fearless, have fun.
SPEAKER_00 (38:31):
Like it.
All right.
With that, thank you, Wendy.
This episode was produced,edited, and all things by us,
myself, Mel Flett, and FrancescaReneri.
Our music is by Pink Zebra.
And if you like thisconversation and you want to
(38:54):
contribute your thoughts withus, please do.
You can visit us atyourworkfriends.com.
But you can also join us over onLinkedIn, join us in the
socials.
And if you like this and you'vebenefited from this episode, and
you think somebody else canbenefit from this episode,
please rate and subscribe.
We'd really appreciate it.
That helps keep us going.
Take care, friends.
(39:15):
Bye, friends.
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