October 28, 2025 • 42 mins
Here’s the deal—fear isn’t the villain.
Left alone, it just drives.
In this episode, we sit down with Harvard Business School professor and Thinkers50 honoree Ranjay Gulati, author of How to Be Bold: The Surprising Science of Everyday Courage to talk about acting through fear—at work, in leadership, and in a world that feels permanently uncertain. We get into why uncertainty hijacks the brain, what separates risk from true unknowns, and how everyday people “hack” fear with rituals, reframes, and the right support squad. For leaders, we get real about absorbing ambiguity, setting a confident narrative (without turning into a motivational poster), and why courage—not conformity—is becoming a competitive advantage.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- Why uncertainty (not danger) triggers fear—and how to build a rapport with it
- The freeze → flight → fight reality, and practical “fear hacks” that actually help
- The four kinds of support that make courageous action possible (resources, info, moral, feedback)
- How to reframe your team’s story to build self-efficacy without the cringe
- What bold leadership looks like in down markets (plus the 9% who invest and win)
- Why outcomes don’t always prove courage wrong—and how to “give luck a chance”
- The culture shift from fear/anger to purpose/impact—and why courage is the new currency
Find Ranjay:
On LinkedIn
His Website
Disclaimer: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered professional advice. We are not responsible for any losses, damages, or liabilities that may arise from the use of this podcast. The views expressed in this podcast may not be those of the host or the management.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_06 (00:00):
So, how do we develop this rapport with fear?
(00:06):
That I think is the real thingto understand.
Otherwise, fear left to its owndevices is gonna hijack us.
SPEAKER_04 (00:28):
Hey, this is your work friends.
I'm Mel Platt, and I'm FrancescaRineri, and we break down on the
now and next of work, so youstay ahead.
SPEAKER_00 (00:35):
What's up, Mel?
How are you?
Good, how are you?
Good.
I am totally into the whole lubejewelry heist and now the
gambling ring.
I feel like we're going back toold school crime, and I'm
actually really loving it.
Did you see the detective inFrance who looked like Pink
Panther?
Oh my god.
The hazel, the scarf.
SPEAKER_04 (00:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.
The suit, the coat.
What's happening?
SPEAKER_00 (00:57):
I'm all for it.
I'm actually all for it.
The real world is scary andentertaining all at the same
time.
I agree.
SPEAKER_04 (01:03):
I agree.
SPEAKER_00 (01:04):
We talked about boldness, but in a different
way.
SPEAKER_04 (01:07):
We did.
We did.
We sat down with Ranja Gulati,who is the author of How to Be
Bold, The Surprising Science ofEveryday Courage.
Listen, Ranjay is an expert ineverything in this space.
He's a distinguished HarvardBusiness School professor.
He's a social scientist.
He also wrote the book, DeepPurpose.
(01:30):
He is part of Thinkers 50.
And the Dalai Lama did the introfor his book.
So if you need any sort ofreason why you should probably
read this book, let that be oneof them.
SPEAKER_00 (01:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know how you tap that.
You don't.
SPEAKER_04 (01:46):
You don't.
You just don't.
I know.
He was such a pleasure and joyto speak with right now.
More than ever, just the timingof this book feels right and
needed, given all of theexternal impacts to people,
internal impacts for folks thatwork.
What are you thinking?
SPEAKER_00 (02:03):
Yeah, to your point.
Wow.
Perfect time for this book.
This is absolutelyevidence-based, but also how
people who have been courageous,what did they do?
And then how can the mostfearful among us do those
things?
And it's actually very practicalsteps we can all take.
And hand again, we all need tostop sitting and waiting and
(02:26):
start moving into action.
And if you want to know howpeople did it before you, how
people are doing it now, and howyou can do it, this is your
episode.
100% with that.
SPEAKER_04 (02:38):
Here's Ramsay.
Something that you said iscourage is acting through fear,
not ignoring it.
(02:59):
Why do you feel like maybe todaythat matters more than ever?
SPEAKER_06 (03:04):
I think to understand that you have to get
to the origin of fear.
I hadn't understood that myself,honestly, until I read some
research by a very famouspsychologist at the Harvard
Kennedy School, and she studiesemotion.
And one of her studies was aboutthe emotion of fear.
And it turns out what activatesfear, because fear is a primal
(03:24):
human emotion hardwired in theprimitive brain.
This is not software we'redealing with hardware, okay?
This was a survival emotion frompre-existing cave dweller times,
right?
And the point of origin of fearthat activated for survival was
uncertainty.
Uncertainty activates loss ofcontrol, and that just hijacks
(03:48):
the amygdala.
You don't think anymore, theprefrontal cortex doesn't need
to process, you are just insurvival mode.
And so it's uncertainty.
I think that's the first thing Ihad to understand.
Then I had to read the research,some research by an economist,
Frank Knight, who made adistinction between risk and
uncertainty.
And so now I'm trying tounderstand risk is where you
(04:11):
know the distribution ofoutcomes.
You can model it, say 10% chanceof this, 30%.
Uncertainty is unknown.
I don't know.
I don't know.
And so when uncertaintyactivates, that activates fear.
Then we see what is the responseto fear.
Now everyone says fight orflight, right?
(04:32):
That's what I said too.
And then I realized I looked atmy own behavior.
Fight is the last response.
It's usually freeze, flight, andoccasionally fight.
So then it all started to makesense to me.
And now what's happening today?
Is there more uncertainty?
Yes.
Let me give you a simplestatistic.
(04:52):
In a recent analysis of earningscalls by CEOs of public
companies, they used the worduncertainty three times more in
three months than they did inthe entire prior year.
Wow.
Yeah.
Harvard Business Review coverfeature, this last issue, was
about courage and uncertainty.
(05:13):
And the editor in her coveressay says, we are facing an
uncertainty crisis.
Yeah.
So it's all around us.
The first lesson to me was it'snormal to be afraid in times of
fear.
Maybe there's I'm giving you myown bias.
As a young man growing up, Ifelt ashamed when I was scared.
SPEAKER_05 (05:32):
It's like, you're scared, tough it out, baby.
Get out there and go to thatbasement.
So what if it's dark?
There's no ghost down there.
SPEAKER_02 (05:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (05:40):
And I'm like, okay, I gotta go.
And I think first thing is tojust come be comfortable and
okay with the fact that I'mscared.
Yeah.
And Tom Cruise, who some peoplelike and some don't, but who
does most of his stunts himself.
So he did one, which was hedrove a motorcycle off a cliff
for the last uh MissionImpossible six times till he
(06:01):
felt he had gotten it right andhe parachuted down into the
valley.
And he said something that Ithought was really interesting.
He said, It's not that I'm notafraid when I do these things.
I've learned to be okay beingafraid.
So how do we develop thisrapport with fear?
(06:24):
That I think is the real thingto understand.
Otherwise, fear left to its owndevices is gonna hijack us.
So, how are we gonna engagefear?
First of all, calling it out,saying, Yeah, I'm afraid.
That's okay.
Now what?
And I have a story in the bookabout my mother, and my mother's
(06:46):
one line always stuck with me,which was just because you're
afraid doesn't mean you donothing.
SPEAKER_04 (06:52):
I love the concept too of just name it to tame it
to start with.
Like really just sit.
You can thank my therapist forthat.
SPEAKER_00 (07:03):
His next book is name it too.
SPEAKER_04 (07:06):
I love that line.
I have one of those emotionwheel pillows on my couch.
And I just think it's sorry, I'mvery feeling you're like, what
am I really feeling here?
Because there is that initialfear.
And I was also scared of mybasement growing up.
I think there were total ghostsdown there.
I know it for sure.
I don't know about you, but assoon as you recognize or say,
(07:27):
All right, I'm afraid, it seemsto take that inner fire burning
down a few octaves, just alittle smidge, just by doing
that.
So I love the example you justshared.
SPEAKER_06 (07:38):
But Mel, I'm a sociologist by training.
And I think society has createdthis illusion from Hollywood
movies.
James Bond, Jason Bourne, thesecharacters who are emotionally
troubled.
Yeah.
We portray them as fearlesscharacters.
And I'll just tell you a quickpersonal story.
So, father, who's brieflymentioned in the book, he was a
(07:59):
military officer, and for aperiod of time he was in
military intelligence.
And India was in a very bloodywar.
He was in a dangerous combatmission behind enemy lines.
So they did this combat mission.
They successfully accomplishedit.
It was a critical mission forthe war.
He comes back.
I'm 10 years old, I'm proud ofmy dad.
(08:19):
And I remember this conversationI had with him.
He and I went for a walk, and Isaid, Dad, now I'm watching
James Bond movies in those days.
I was really into this, and mydad's a military officer.
And I said, Dad, when you wereout there, were you scared?
Now the answer I was looking forwas no.
The answer my dad, who was avery honest person with me and
(08:42):
always spoke up what he felt, hesaid, son, it was very scary.
We were out there behind enemylines.
We had no supply lines, so noextra supplies coming in.
We had no escape plan, noextraction plan.
And we had lost our element ofsurprise.
The enemy found out about us.
So they were on our tail.
So here we are in the midst ofbehind enemy lines, running
(09:05):
around trying to kind of Hesaid, but it was scary.
I had a job to do.
I was responsible for my team,for my country.
So I did it.
I only registered one thing as a10-year-old.
I can't believe he was scared.
So we have this kind of, I wouldsay, fear shaming that we do.
(09:26):
And maybe there's gender biasover here.
Maybe boys experience it morethan I don't know, maybe not.
But beyond that, I think I cameto realize, and I looked at all
these courageous characters whomI interviewed, they would find a
way to hack fear.
It wasn't just taming it, namingit only, they hacked it.
They would find ways to hackfear.
(09:46):
I'll give you the most commonone that has been around for
thousands of years, by the way,is prayer.
For thousands of years, peopleprayed to a higher power, hoping
that would save them.
Harriet Tubman, who ran theUnderground Railroad, kept going
back with a big bounty on herhead.
They were like, she's the one,find that woman.
But she had this intense beliefthat there was a higher power on
(10:10):
her side.
And so that calmed her down.
Others use rituals.
I don't know if you know this,but Katie Ledecki, a famous
Olympic athlete, when she getsnervous, she starts reciting her
grandmother's name.
Adele, amazing musician, right?
A singer, she's terrified ofperforming.
And so when before she goes onstage, she takes out a picture
(10:32):
of Celine Dion.
So people rely on rituals, theyrely on beliefs, but then there
were other hacks I found thatpeople were doing.
And here's the part that I foundfascinating.
I found real hard social scienceresearch to explain that
behavior.
And then that led me to realizeoh my God, this is learnable
(10:55):
skills.
Maybe all of us can do it, andwe all let fear overwhelm us.
Maybe we can.
Honestly, it was for me.
The book started out as a kindof exploration of fear for me,
but I slowly felt that I had towrite it as a book.
SPEAKER_04 (11:12):
Yeah.
It's such a human experience.
We all feel fear.
We all try to work through it.
And sometimes it could, like youmentioned, make you just freeze
or fight, fawning, not movingforward, and you get stuck.
So I really love that you've putout this research.
I know in the workplace today,it we know it's super volatile.
(11:32):
And as you mentioned, thatincrease in the word uncertainty
just being used in town halls,it's coming from executive
leadership.
And then you think flowing downto teams, just that level of
uncertainty that might behappening.
If you had to name what thecause of the courage gap inside
most companies today is, what isthat?
SPEAKER_06 (11:53):
So if you look in organizations, what do
organizations do?
So when you build anorganization, even a small
company, or as you start to getslightly bigger, you start to
compartmentalize work.
Silos, right?
You then want accountability.
Have you done your job?
(12:14):
What's your KPI?
Then you want to createreliability and predictability,
like standardize work.
Right?
So I standardize, I routinize, Iorganize, I quantify.
So all these things are good.
You need that if you're gonnascale up an organization.
But in the process of creatingthis system of accountability
(12:37):
and predictability and divisionof labor, we build systems of
risk aversion and caution.
Don't screw it up.
Meaning the translation of thatis there's very little upside
and there's very big downside.
So by design, actually, youcreate a culture and environment
(13:00):
of caution.
Tread lightly, don't go in therelike a bull in a china shop.
And when young people come intothe organization, they'll have
new ideas, enthusiasm, andexcitement.
I want to do something, I wannaand then after a little while it
dampens down, and we createsystems of conformity.
(13:22):
Now, my colleague and goodfriend, Amy Edmondson, has
written about psychologicalsafety that designers of
organizations should createsafety in the workplace,
psychological safety.
But I feel in addition to doingthat, you need to give people
the muscle to speak upregardless.
(13:44):
One of the people I interviewedfrom my book is a former student
of mine, Francis Haugen.
She was the whistleblower atFacebook.
Yeah, she took a year thinkingthrough should I because this is
gonna blow up her career.
She here's a Harvard MBA,high-powered tech executive
living her dream.
But you see how she resourcedherself to take that action.
(14:07):
A, she didn't do it alone.
That's another myth that we havethat courage is a solo affair.
It takes a village.
And then I looked at the socialscience research and saw what
she had done.
In the research on support, theyfind that there are four types
of support that help people findvoice or courage.
(14:30):
First one is resource support.
Resources.
Second one is informationsupport.
Third one is moral support.
And the fourth one is appraisalor feedback support.
You can see this inentrepreneurs too.
If you get a really good venturecapitalist, they will not only
give you money, which isresources, they will also give
(14:51):
you information, they'll alsogive you moral support, and
they'll also give you feedbacksupport.
And that's what Frances found.
It was COVID.
She went home.
Her mother asked her, If you'reso upset, why aren't you doing
something about it?
And she said, Somebody elsecould, and why me?
SPEAKER_05 (15:09):
There are thousands of people working at Facebook.
Like, why should I be the one tohave to like bail the cat?
SPEAKER_06 (15:14):
And her mother's like, You're not you, then who?
And then she talked to areporter at the Wall Street
Journal, and the reporter said,We'll help you.
Then she talked to a law firmwhich specialized in
whistleblowers, and they said,Well, this is what you need to
do, and this is how it's gonnaaffect you, and this is how
you're protected.
(15:34):
She talked to a friend of herswho was a priest who gave her
feedback and said, Let's talk itthrough together, and let me
tell you how you're processingit.
So, you know, you discover thatcourageous actors are rarely
alone.
Now, I have to tell you, I wasembarrassed actually when I
found this research.
Because one of my favorite casesto teach is a case about Erna
(15:57):
Shackleton.
Shackleton is the South Poleexplorer who went down in the
1920s and tens, actually, downto the South Pole, and he was
with 28 men, his ship sinks, andthen he miraculously, oh, after
two years lost over there inthree lifeboats, he brings all
28 men back alive.
(16:17):
And we have black and whitevideo from a cameraman he took
with him back down there.
So we show the footage, we talkabout Shackleton, and it's
amazing.
What did Shackleton do?
What did Shackleton do?
So I'm writing this book, Irealized Shackleton didn't do it
alone.
He had two people in his innersupport squad without whom he
(16:38):
was toast in his own diaries.
He recorded moments of despair.
So I found that some courageouswere resourced with the
collective they were part of.
It sounds random that, oh yeah,Shackleton did it, must have
been a great guy, God knows whatkind of childhood he had, must
be an aberration, didn't have todeal with fear.
(17:00):
He's an exception, he's a hero.
And then people like me amplifythat heroic story, which I did
for a long time myself, andthey're like, No.
So that was insightful to me.
That there are these nuancesaround how these heroic
characters somehow take on fear.
(17:24):
He was scared.
He admitted he was scared.
You wouldn't think so.
You're a South Pole explorer,dude.
That's what you do for a living.
You've done it multiple timesgoing down the South Pole.
What do you mean you're scared?
You were scared.
SPEAKER_00 (17:43):
It's interesting because when I think about the
archetype of a CEO or thearchetype of a leader, feeling
fear, admitting fear, admittingvulnerability is typically not
part of that persona.
When we think about how weredefine courage at work, most
decisions CEOs are making rightnow.
It feels like they're going tosay, I have to make decisions
(18:03):
because I'm beholden to ashareholder, I'm beholden to the
system, I'm beholden to stockmarket price.
Because they're beholden tothat, it doesn't feel like the
risk of being courageous isworth the reward of it.
What's the upside for someone tobe courageous from a leadership
perspective?
SPEAKER_06 (18:22):
Francesco, you asked a great question.
Spot on, right on the money,right now, present time
question.
So let me go back in time.
Aristotle, one of the earliestessays I could find about
courage was Aristotle's writingabout courage.
And he made a distinction.
He said, on one extreme wascowardice, and the other extreme
(18:44):
was reckless.
And courage was somewhere in themiddle of that.
So courage in his mind wasdeliberate, thoughtful action in
the face of fear.
Not reckless.
Now there's a fine line betweenreckless and courageous, also,
right?
And part of the challenge forCEOs, which I think is now
(19:08):
powerful course, they have tosatisfy multiple stakeholders
simultaneously.
And those stakeholders want verydifferent things.
And you're never gonna makeeverybody happy.
Right?
So no matter what you do,somebody's gonna be pissed with
you and upset.
Employees want to get paid more,customers want to pay less,
(19:29):
right?
Society wants something fromyou.
So here you are trying tonavigate your way through that.
Right?
What is right and wrong is thereis no right or wrong.
Easy answer over here for you.
Well, guess what?
The job of a leader now isnavigating through a very
polarized environment wheredisparate stakeholders want very
(19:53):
different things from you.
And you gotta roll with thepunches.
The one study that triggeredthis whole project was a CEO
study of what do CEOs do in downmarkets?
And it was based on a verysimple idea that all CEOs tell
you that the best time to getahead of competition is not up
markets, it's down markets.
(20:15):
But so I said, okay, let's see.
So I actually got data goingback three recessions.
This is in 2010.
And I said, let me see how manycompanies invest for growth in
down markets.
What do you think?
What number?
SPEAKER_00 (20:29):
I know the number, but I'm gonna overshoot it.
I'm gonna say 1% because I knowwhat the number is.
SPEAKER_06 (20:34):
Okay.
It was 9%.
SPEAKER_00 (20:35):
9%.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (20:37):
And those companies came out of the recession much
stronger.
That's why the article, whichwas published in Harvard
Business Review, was calledRoaring Out of Recessions.
But it it was just to mefascinating to see what the 91%
were doing.
They all know it intellectually,but I have to admit, I my
hypothesis, I didn't interviewanybody in a recession.
(20:59):
I'm waiting for anotherrecession so I can find out what
they are doing.
SPEAKER_00 (21:03):
Wait too much.
I'm just gonna wait two monthsand I'll be here.
SPEAKER_06 (21:10):
Hey, give me a recession.
I need to do a research studythen.
Come on.
SPEAKER_00 (21:14):
You got it.
SPEAKER_06 (21:15):
I know exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (21:17):
There's a few things that really strike me because
Mel and I met at Deloitte.
And one of the things thatDeloitte was very much known for
was being a people-centricorganization.
And that was something that waspart of their core purpose that
we are the people firm.
And in 2008, 2009, I rememberBarry Salzberg, who was the CEO
(21:37):
at the time, made a capital callto all the partners and said,
You guys need to cop, you guys,gals, people need to cop up a
lot of money each to build whatwas called Dullet University
down in Westlake, Texas, becausewe are going to invest in a
culture of learning and aculture of development for our
people.
Now, this is 2009, right?
(21:58):
And the economy is still notgreat.
They are investing, they're partof that 9% that you talked
about.
And when they came out of therecession, they were so much
further ahead because they hadthis stack of talent on board,
people that believed in theirpurpose.
They were known as the peoplefirm.
And by the way, they rode thatbrand very deeply for the next
(22:23):
10 years.
When you have this unifyingpurpose and you're making the
moves, even in down markets, tomake good on that promise, make
good on that purpose.
People live that and they feelthat.
(22:43):
I understand why the 9%, I lovethat you did this research, that
they actually do better whenthey come out of it, because
that's always been our theory,but it's nice that you have the
numbers around it.
But it takes these courageousmoves, though, to make good on
that frame.
We've seen this and we keep onseeing this, and we'd love to
see more of it because whenpeople do act in this way and
(23:04):
towards that purpose, they comeout better for it.
And honestly, it's a betterplace to work.
Most of the time, people rightnow are just this place blows.
The energy blows, the tensionsthere.
But then when you have thesecompanies that have this
rallying cry to your point aboutculture having an emotional
energy to it, it just feels morevirtuous in general.
SPEAKER_06 (23:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's interesting.
I've studied founder-ledcompanies in the past, and you
look at some of the foundersafter they leave or when the
company gets big, one of theirfirst common laments is my
company has lost its soul.
unknown (23:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (23:40):
Even if you look at Starbucks, their founder, Howard
Schultz, multiple times hassaid, Oh my God, the company's
lost its soul.
We've lost our soul.
I gotta come back.
I know.
That's the other part of it.
That's a bad side of it.
Recently, Lul Lemon's foundersaid the same thing about Lulu
Lemon.
Uh-huh.
That Luleman has lost his soul.
There's so many, I'm teaching anMBA class on turnarounds and
(24:02):
transformations.
And so many of them talk aboutthis idea, but I also want to
clarify that sometimes this boldaction doesn't work out.
Courage, by definition, involvessticking your neck out.
It doesn't always pan out.
I wrote a case on WeightWatchers.
They hired a really dynamic,smart CEO, Seema Sistani, who
(24:23):
was quick to see that WeightWatchers had to start
prescribing GLP ones, eventhough it went fundamentally
against everything they believedin.
So she buys a company that'sprescribing it.
It's just the world is moving sofast that they're not able to
turn the corner as fast as theworld is turning.
(24:45):
Or Blackberry, which brought ina guy called John Chan, who
said, We're done with hardware.
We need to be a software companybecause we have the most secure
software backbone even today.
Right?
Because Blackberries, that's whyBlackberries were the most
secure devices.
So let's become a software.
Great idea, amazingly wellexecuted.
(25:07):
You're a publicly listedcompany, and it's really hard to
convince the market that you area different company now.
We always measure things by theoutcome, not by the process or
the effort.
Yeah.
So not every courageous actionhas a kind of a happy ending to
the story.
Some of them don't always playout in the way you would have
(25:32):
hoped.
But doesn't mean these actionswere not courageous.
SPEAKER_02 (25:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (25:36):
And these were hard.
So I'm seeing now these storiesof transformations.
Some of them are amazing.
They work out.
And we are, by the way, webusiness observers, researchers,
we're very opportunistic.
If it works out, we say, oh,what a genius! I knew it.
I knew they were gonna do that.
That was brilliant.
And if it doesn't work out, wesay, what a loser.
I would have told you right awayfrom there was a this was a
(25:58):
stupid idea.
And I don't agree.
I think sometimes, but inorganizations today, we need to
learn to be more bold.
SPEAKER_04 (26:17):
You have outlined the five courage strategies.
Yeah, we've talked about acouple of them, like in the
context of individuals, but I'mhoping we could talk about them
in the context of like teams andin organizations, like with if
you're a leader in anorganization.
One is around changing thenarrative or creating a more
positive narrative.
(26:38):
So when fatigue sets in,reframing, but how can you help
your team without sounding likea motivational poster when the
world feels like it's on fire?
How can you create thatnarrative that creates an
environment where they feel likeit is safe to be courageous or
bold, even if that bold movedoesn't give the outcome that
(27:00):
was desired?
SPEAKER_06 (27:02):
A couple of thoughts.
You mentioned the wordnarrative.
And actually that was thestarting point for the whole
story.
SPEAKER_02 (27:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (27:11):
And I think narrative is personal,
individual, but it can be for ateam and can be for an
organization.
And it's fascinating that wethink it's true, but it turns
out to be very powerfully true.
You change the narrative, youchange your behavior.
And there's a really oldresearch to back this up.
So there was in the 1800s, therewas a very famous sociologist,
(27:34):
Max Weber, and Weber wanted tostudy what propels human action.
Logics for action.
And the straw man was the logicfor action is very utilitarian
calculus rational, cost benefit.
And it's true, that is a verypowerful motivator of human
(27:55):
behavior.
Would you agree with that?
You do the cost benefit.
SPEAKER_02 (27:59):
It's powerful, it matters.
SPEAKER_06 (28:01):
We all calculate cost benefit and say, is it
worth it or not worth it?
Then I do it.
But he also pointed out thatthere's another logic for action
which is more interpretive.
It's meaning.
It's emotional.
You may call it non-rational,even.
(28:22):
But it's powerful.
And this meaning interpretationof the world is about how you
look at the situation and howyou look at yourself in the
situation.
It's both.
It's outward looking and it'sinward looking.
It's how you understand.
And I think as a team leader, Ithink we need to reframe our
(28:46):
narrative that what is thesituation?
This is our moment.
This is our Olympic moment.
I'll give you an extreme exampleof this.
So I interviewed a lady, Dr.
Summa Jang, who was an ERphysician down in New Orleans.
And at that time, in duringearly days of COVID, she was a
young mother with two childrenin her 30s.
(29:08):
And COVID took off.
And she's in the ER every daywith people coming in with very
advanced stages of COVID.
Most of them, even when vaccinescame out, refused to get
vaccinated down there because ofall the misinformation going
around.
And she has to decide (29:25):
should I keep coming in?
I'm going home every night and Igot two little kids and I got a
husband.
unknown (29:32):
Right?
SPEAKER_06 (29:32):
Now she's doing all the things that we don't know.
She's like washing herself,taking a shower, going, coming
in through the basement,throwing out her clothes into
the washing machine, doing allthat stuff, but she's still
worried.
And she and her teammates talkedabout it, and they said, if we
abandon work now, what were wedoing?
This is our Olympic moment.
(29:53):
So how you look at the situationand say It's great to be a hero
in good times.
What are we gonna do to up ourgame now?
How do we step up?
So, how do we create thatemotional energy that this is
our hero moment and this is whatwe were meant to do?
And it's gonna be hard, it'sgonna be scary, but we can do
(30:17):
it.
So that's changing thenarrative.
Another piece of the puzzlethere is how do you build up the
confidence?
Mo a lot of times people look atdifficult, challenging things,
and they're not sure they can doit.
So, how do you build up that?
It's not confidence only, it'swhat uh this famous Stanford
(30:40):
psychologist Albert Banduracalls self-efficacy.
How do you build self-efficacy?
And so that's another piece ofthis.
Again, I'm talking about how youhow do you resource the team to
support each other, to changethe narrative, to build up their
(31:00):
confidence, to align it withtheir purpose, maybe if you want
to.
I think all these things becomeimportant as they are for
individuals, as they can be forteams.
So I think the narrative idea isa big one.
SPEAKER_01 (31:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (31:16):
And the next one I was going to ask about was also
confidence.
It's something that you broughtup earlier, is like the word
uncertainty, just it's almostlike death tasks and uncertainty
are now the three big things youcan always plan on.
And so when you think about wheneveryone is in this position of
being underqualified for thefuture, is it just accepting
(31:37):
that and just owning it?
And does that help buildconfidence?
Hey, look, we're allunderqualified here because none
of us can ever really predictthe future.
SPEAKER_06 (31:48):
Look, I think you're right.
None of us can predict thefuture.
None of us knows what work isgonna look like in five years.
But I think we can prepareourselves for what is coming
down the road as best we can,knowing that it might not be the
right preparation, might be thewrong preparation, but I'm gonna
do it.
(32:08):
I'll give you you can't justrely on luck.
unknown (32:11):
No.
SPEAKER_06 (32:12):
So it's not like I'm gonna just wait and see, and
hopefully it'll work out.
Shackleton, back to Shackletonagain.
At the end of it, when he comesback, a reporter asks him, like,
hey, listen, I know youeveryone's saying you're this
leader who heroically broughtall your people back alive, but
listen, you got lucky.
You go in a lifeboat across 800miles on the roughest sea on the
(32:33):
planet, and somehow magically,without a full navigation set of
equipment, you land on thatlittle island where the whaling
station is.
That's luck, right?
Then you have no mountain andgear, mountaineering gear, you
cross over mountains andglaciers across the island to
get to the whaling station.
That's also luck.
So Shackleton listens to him andsays, You know, you're
(32:55):
absolutely right.
We were very lucky, but we gaveluck a chance.
We gave luck a chance.
So, what are we gonna do to giveluck a chance?
You're gonna need some luck inin these kind of crazy uh
uncertain times.
You're gonna need some luck, butwhat are you gonna do to give
luck a chance?
So, I think it's the question toask is how do I retool myself?
(33:18):
Yeah, and having that can-domindset I can do it versus a
victim routine.
I gotta tell you, the mostcomforting feeling for most of
us is to feel like a victim.
Because why?
Because then you can blameeverybody else.
SPEAKER_04 (33:38):
Safety.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (33:41):
And so that is a big learning I had as I was
observing some of thesecharacters.
SPEAKER_04 (33:47):
A lot of teams always look to their leader,
right?
You set the tone.
So when a leader is feelinguncertain and struggling with
their own confidence becausethey might not have all of the
answers, what can leaders do tolean into that and own it maybe
a little to help their team havecourage?
SPEAKER_06 (34:06):
So I'm a big fan of my colleague and friend Bill
George, who wrote aboutauthentic leadership.
But I think some people tookthis, his really pioneering
ideas into this vulnerability isa good thing.
And I think we took thisvulnerability too far.
I think in times of uncertainty,followers don't want their
leaders falling apart.
SPEAKER_05 (34:27):
I don't know what to do.
I have no idea.
SPEAKER_06 (34:30):
What do you guys think?
I'm just being vulnerable withyou.
No.
Yeah.
This is times when followerswant confidence, clarity, right?
They want certainty more thanuncertainty.
You have to, as leader, shoulderthat uncertainty on you.
Now, I did say earlier, youdon't have to do it yourself.
You can find your own supportswap to help you shoulder it.
(34:54):
But ultimately, you have toabsorb, you have to be a shock
absorber for others and resourceyourself to be able to manage to
navigate your way through thisuncertainty.
Indecision kicks in, right?
Nobody wants to make a decision.
So guess what?
You as a leader, I have to likenudge that along and say, we're
(35:14):
gonna make some tough decisions.
SPEAKER_04 (35:17):
Yeah, that was like the fourth thing I was gonna
talk about here was what yousaid about that community and
finding connection.
That's what's going to help thatleader.
It's so important for leaders tohave that outside community too.
So they can do that because it'sa team sport that will help fuel
everything.
SPEAKER_06 (35:33):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (35:34):
I'm curious about what's giving you hope about
courage in the workplace today.
Are you seeing glimmers of hopeor things that make you feel
like a couple of things.
SPEAKER_06 (35:46):
Unrelated to my book.
It's not, oh, they're allreading my book and now I have
hope.
That's not the answer.
Just to be very clear, I thinkis the fact that so many leaders
are recognizing that courage isa key driver for their future
success, that being bold intimes of uncertainty is going to
(36:10):
unlock their strategy andcompetitive advantage.
And that they recognize thatthey can't do it alone.
You can't wave a wand and makethe company or the organization
courageous.
I think that gives me hope.
The realization they understandthat to win in the marketplace,
to be a winning company, you'regonna need courage.
(36:33):
And I'm just finishing a case onBoston Scientific, which
actually 12 years ago was afailing company and today is a
$150 billion company.
You know what the mantra for thecompany was when the CEO took
over, Mike Mahoney took over 12years ago?
Winning spirit.
(36:53):
Right?
So this kind of recognition thatwinning, bold, courage
translates into market success.
That organizations are naturallyrisk-averse, that you need to
really nudge them collectivelyto think courageously.
(37:14):
And I think so.
People working in organizationsshould realize that courage is
gonna be a currency.
It's gonna be winning for theorganization, for the teams, and
for individuals who decide totake bold action.
It's not gonna work out everytime, but I think penalizing for
bold behavior is gonna go awayor go down compared to what
(37:38):
we've been used to.
Conformity is not whatorganizations are gonna expect
from their people.
I think we'll be better off forit.
SPEAKER_03 (37:47):
It's refreshing.
SPEAKER_06 (37:48):
Yeah.
That's my hope.
I'm a hopeful person.
I like to believe in the best.
So fingers crossed.
SPEAKER_04 (38:06):
All right, rapid round, Ranjay.
It is 2030.
What do you think work is goingto look like?
SPEAKER_06 (38:15):
Very different.
And and I think we all don'thave a clear idea of what it
will look like.
SPEAKER_04 (38:21):
Yeah.
Okay.
What's one thing about corporateculture you wish would just die
already?
SPEAKER_06 (38:32):
The fact that if you look at how people experience
work and the fact that the twomost common emotions at work are
fear and anger is not a goodthing.
I think culture is not justbehavioral norms, it's emotions.
It is emotional culture.
And I think we're in a placewhere we need to re reset
culture to elicit positiveemotions, not just fear and
(38:55):
anger.
SPEAKER_04 (38:58):
What do you think the greatest opportunity most
organizations are missing out onright now?
SPEAKER_06 (39:07):
I think we are missing out on the opportunity
to realize that as human beings,we aspire to be part of
something bigger than ourselves.
And when we are feel connectedto something bigger than
ourselves, we're willing to goto great lengths for it.
And we have yet to fully tapinto that innate human desire to
feel like I'm having an impact,I'm making a difference, I'm
(39:30):
really reshaping a market, acustomer experience, or even the
way the world around me works.
SPEAKER_04 (39:38):
Yeah.
Okay.
This is a little personal.
I don't mean to put you on thespot.
What music are you listening toright now?
SPEAKER_06 (39:46):
Oh, the music I listen to.
I love Ed Shirin.
SPEAKER_03 (39:50):
Oh, do you?
What's your favorite Ed Shurinsong?
SPEAKER_06 (39:53):
Huh?
SPEAKER_03 (39:54):
Do you have a favorite or are you just
Photograph?
SPEAKER_06 (39:56):
Photograph?
SPEAKER_03 (39:57):
Yeah, it's so good.
That's so good.
SPEAKER_04 (39:59):
Okay.
What are you reading right now?
It could be an audiobook.
It could not be a book.
It could be a magazine, likesomething that brings you joy.
SPEAKER_06 (40:08):
I have been reading, rereading Atomic Habits and
another book called To Risk ItAll.
Oh.
That's the Navy Admiral.
SPEAKER_04 (40:20):
Oh, that sounds interesting.
Who do you really admire?
SPEAKER_06 (40:27):
I admire the person who wrote the foreword to my
book, which is His Holiness theDalai Lama.
SPEAKER_04 (40:32):
Yeah.
That's a big one.
What's a piece of advice youwould like to leave everyone
with if they get nothing elseout of today?
What would you want them to walkaway with?
SPEAKER_06 (40:47):
There's a reason Aristotle said courage is the
master virtue that unlocks allother virtues.
And I think when we findcourage, it allows us to do so
much more with our lives.
SPEAKER_00 (41:01):
Ranjay, thanks so much for joining us today.
Appreciate you.
SPEAKER_06 (41:05):
It was great to talk to both of you.
SPEAKER_04 (41:07):
How can folks stay in touch with you?
SPEAKER_06 (41:09):
LinkedIn is the best way to find me.
I have a newsletter I put out onLinkedIn every week or two.
I have a website which isRanjaybolati.com.
Thank you, Mel.
Thank you, Francesca.
SPEAKER_03 (41:20):
Thank you.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_04 (41:23):
This episode was produced, edited, and all things
by us, myself, Mel Platt, andFrancesca Reneri.
Our music is by Pink Zebra.
And if you loved thisconversation and you want to
contribute your thoughts withus, please do.
You can visit us atyourworkfriends.com.
(41:43):
But you can also join us over onLinkedIn, join us in the
socials.
And if you like this and you'vebenefited from this episode, and
you think someone else canbenefit from this episode,
please rate and subscribe.
We'd really appreciate it.
That helps keep us going.
Take care, friends.
Bye, friends.
So, how do we develop this rapport with fear?
(00:06):
That I think is the real thingto understand.
Otherwise, fear left to its owndevices is gonna hijack us.
SPEAKER_04 (00:28):
Hey, this is your work friends.
I'm Mel Platt, and I'm FrancescaRineri, and we break down on the
now and next of work, so youstay ahead.
SPEAKER_00 (00:35):
What's up, Mel?
How are you?
Good, how are you?
Good.
I am totally into the whole lubejewelry heist and now the
gambling ring.
I feel like we're going back toold school crime, and I'm
actually really loving it.
Did you see the detective inFrance who looked like Pink
Panther?
Oh my god.
The hazel, the scarf.
SPEAKER_04 (00:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.
The suit, the coat.
What's happening?
SPEAKER_00 (00:57):
I'm all for it.
I'm actually all for it.
The real world is scary andentertaining all at the same
time.
I agree.
SPEAKER_04 (01:03):
I agree.
SPEAKER_00 (01:04):
We talked about boldness, but in a different
way.
SPEAKER_04 (01:07):
We did.
We did.
We sat down with Ranja Gulati,who is the author of How to Be
Bold, The Surprising Science ofEveryday Courage.
Listen, Ranjay is an expert ineverything in this space.
He's a distinguished HarvardBusiness School professor.
He's a social scientist.
He also wrote the book, DeepPurpose.
(01:30):
He is part of Thinkers 50.
And the Dalai Lama did the introfor his book.
So if you need any sort ofreason why you should probably
read this book, let that be oneof them.
SPEAKER_00 (01:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know how you tap that.
You don't.
SPEAKER_04 (01:46):
You don't.
You just don't.
I know.
He was such a pleasure and joyto speak with right now.
More than ever, just the timingof this book feels right and
needed, given all of theexternal impacts to people,
internal impacts for folks thatwork.
What are you thinking?
SPEAKER_00 (02:03):
Yeah, to your point.
Wow.
Perfect time for this book.
This is absolutelyevidence-based, but also how
people who have been courageous,what did they do?
And then how can the mostfearful among us do those
things?
And it's actually very practicalsteps we can all take.
And hand again, we all need tostop sitting and waiting and
(02:26):
start moving into action.
And if you want to know howpeople did it before you, how
people are doing it now, and howyou can do it, this is your
episode.
100% with that.
SPEAKER_04 (02:38):
Here's Ramsay.
Something that you said iscourage is acting through fear,
not ignoring it.
(02:59):
Why do you feel like maybe todaythat matters more than ever?
SPEAKER_06 (03:04):
I think to understand that you have to get
to the origin of fear.
I hadn't understood that myself,honestly, until I read some
research by a very famouspsychologist at the Harvard
Kennedy School, and she studiesemotion.
And one of her studies was aboutthe emotion of fear.
And it turns out what activatesfear, because fear is a primal
(03:24):
human emotion hardwired in theprimitive brain.
This is not software we'redealing with hardware, okay?
This was a survival emotion frompre-existing cave dweller times,
right?
And the point of origin of fearthat activated for survival was
uncertainty.
Uncertainty activates loss ofcontrol, and that just hijacks
(03:48):
the amygdala.
You don't think anymore, theprefrontal cortex doesn't need
to process, you are just insurvival mode.
And so it's uncertainty.
I think that's the first thing Ihad to understand.
Then I had to read the research,some research by an economist,
Frank Knight, who made adistinction between risk and
uncertainty.
And so now I'm trying tounderstand risk is where you
(04:11):
know the distribution ofoutcomes.
You can model it, say 10% chanceof this, 30%.
Uncertainty is unknown.
I don't know.
I don't know.
And so when uncertaintyactivates, that activates fear.
Then we see what is the responseto fear.
Now everyone says fight orflight, right?
(04:32):
That's what I said too.
And then I realized I looked atmy own behavior.
Fight is the last response.
It's usually freeze, flight, andoccasionally fight.
So then it all started to makesense to me.
And now what's happening today?
Is there more uncertainty?
Yes.
Let me give you a simplestatistic.
(04:52):
In a recent analysis of earningscalls by CEOs of public
companies, they used the worduncertainty three times more in
three months than they did inthe entire prior year.
Wow.
Yeah.
Harvard Business Review coverfeature, this last issue, was
about courage and uncertainty.
(05:13):
And the editor in her coveressay says, we are facing an
uncertainty crisis.
Yeah.
So it's all around us.
The first lesson to me was it'snormal to be afraid in times of
fear.
Maybe there's I'm giving you myown bias.
As a young man growing up, Ifelt ashamed when I was scared.
SPEAKER_05 (05:32):
It's like, you're scared, tough it out, baby.
Get out there and go to thatbasement.
So what if it's dark?
There's no ghost down there.
SPEAKER_02 (05:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (05:40):
And I'm like, okay, I gotta go.
And I think first thing is tojust come be comfortable and
okay with the fact that I'mscared.
Yeah.
And Tom Cruise, who some peoplelike and some don't, but who
does most of his stunts himself.
So he did one, which was hedrove a motorcycle off a cliff
for the last uh MissionImpossible six times till he
(06:01):
felt he had gotten it right andhe parachuted down into the
valley.
And he said something that Ithought was really interesting.
He said, It's not that I'm notafraid when I do these things.
I've learned to be okay beingafraid.
So how do we develop thisrapport with fear?
(06:24):
That I think is the real thingto understand.
Otherwise, fear left to its owndevices is gonna hijack us.
So, how are we gonna engagefear?
First of all, calling it out,saying, Yeah, I'm afraid.
That's okay.
Now what?
And I have a story in the bookabout my mother, and my mother's
(06:46):
one line always stuck with me,which was just because you're
afraid doesn't mean you donothing.
SPEAKER_04 (06:52):
I love the concept too of just name it to tame it
to start with.
Like really just sit.
You can thank my therapist forthat.
SPEAKER_00 (07:03):
His next book is name it too.
SPEAKER_04 (07:06):
I love that line.
I have one of those emotionwheel pillows on my couch.
And I just think it's sorry, I'mvery feeling you're like, what
am I really feeling here?
Because there is that initialfear.
And I was also scared of mybasement growing up.
I think there were total ghostsdown there.
I know it for sure.
I don't know about you, but assoon as you recognize or say,
(07:27):
All right, I'm afraid, it seemsto take that inner fire burning
down a few octaves, just alittle smidge, just by doing
that.
So I love the example you justshared.
SPEAKER_06 (07:38):
But Mel, I'm a sociologist by training.
And I think society has createdthis illusion from Hollywood
movies.
James Bond, Jason Bourne, thesecharacters who are emotionally
troubled.
Yeah.
We portray them as fearlesscharacters.
And I'll just tell you a quickpersonal story.
So, father, who's brieflymentioned in the book, he was a
(07:59):
military officer, and for aperiod of time he was in
military intelligence.
And India was in a very bloodywar.
He was in a dangerous combatmission behind enemy lines.
So they did this combat mission.
They successfully accomplishedit.
It was a critical mission forthe war.
He comes back.
I'm 10 years old, I'm proud ofmy dad.
(08:19):
And I remember this conversationI had with him.
He and I went for a walk, and Isaid, Dad, now I'm watching
James Bond movies in those days.
I was really into this, and mydad's a military officer.
And I said, Dad, when you wereout there, were you scared?
Now the answer I was looking forwas no.
The answer my dad, who was avery honest person with me and
(08:42):
always spoke up what he felt, hesaid, son, it was very scary.
We were out there behind enemylines.
We had no supply lines, so noextra supplies coming in.
We had no escape plan, noextraction plan.
And we had lost our element ofsurprise.
The enemy found out about us.
So they were on our tail.
So here we are in the midst ofbehind enemy lines, running
(09:05):
around trying to kind of Hesaid, but it was scary.
I had a job to do.
I was responsible for my team,for my country.
So I did it.
I only registered one thing as a10-year-old.
I can't believe he was scared.
So we have this kind of, I wouldsay, fear shaming that we do.
(09:26):
And maybe there's gender biasover here.
Maybe boys experience it morethan I don't know, maybe not.
But beyond that, I think I cameto realize, and I looked at all
these courageous characters whomI interviewed, they would find a
way to hack fear.
It wasn't just taming it, namingit only, they hacked it.
They would find ways to hackfear.
(09:46):
I'll give you the most commonone that has been around for
thousands of years, by the way,is prayer.
For thousands of years, peopleprayed to a higher power, hoping
that would save them.
Harriet Tubman, who ran theUnderground Railroad, kept going
back with a big bounty on herhead.
They were like, she's the one,find that woman.
But she had this intense beliefthat there was a higher power on
(10:10):
her side.
And so that calmed her down.
Others use rituals.
I don't know if you know this,but Katie Ledecki, a famous
Olympic athlete, when she getsnervous, she starts reciting her
grandmother's name.
Adele, amazing musician, right?
A singer, she's terrified ofperforming.
And so when before she goes onstage, she takes out a picture
(10:32):
of Celine Dion.
So people rely on rituals, theyrely on beliefs, but then there
were other hacks I found thatpeople were doing.
And here's the part that I foundfascinating.
I found real hard social scienceresearch to explain that
behavior.
And then that led me to realizeoh my God, this is learnable
(10:55):
skills.
Maybe all of us can do it, andwe all let fear overwhelm us.
Maybe we can.
Honestly, it was for me.
The book started out as a kindof exploration of fear for me,
but I slowly felt that I had towrite it as a book.
SPEAKER_04 (11:12):
Yeah.
It's such a human experience.
We all feel fear.
We all try to work through it.
And sometimes it could, like youmentioned, make you just freeze
or fight, fawning, not movingforward, and you get stuck.
So I really love that you've putout this research.
I know in the workplace today,it we know it's super volatile.
(11:32):
And as you mentioned, thatincrease in the word uncertainty
just being used in town halls,it's coming from executive
leadership.
And then you think flowing downto teams, just that level of
uncertainty that might behappening.
If you had to name what thecause of the courage gap inside
most companies today is, what isthat?
SPEAKER_06 (11:53):
So if you look in organizations, what do
organizations do?
So when you build anorganization, even a small
company, or as you start to getslightly bigger, you start to
compartmentalize work.
Silos, right?
You then want accountability.
Have you done your job?
(12:14):
What's your KPI?
Then you want to createreliability and predictability,
like standardize work.
Right?
So I standardize, I routinize, Iorganize, I quantify.
So all these things are good.
You need that if you're gonnascale up an organization.
But in the process of creatingthis system of accountability
(12:37):
and predictability and divisionof labor, we build systems of
risk aversion and caution.
Don't screw it up.
Meaning the translation of thatis there's very little upside
and there's very big downside.
So by design, actually, youcreate a culture and environment
(13:00):
of caution.
Tread lightly, don't go in therelike a bull in a china shop.
And when young people come intothe organization, they'll have
new ideas, enthusiasm, andexcitement.
I want to do something, I wannaand then after a little while it
dampens down, and we createsystems of conformity.
(13:22):
Now, my colleague and goodfriend, Amy Edmondson, has
written about psychologicalsafety that designers of
organizations should createsafety in the workplace,
psychological safety.
But I feel in addition to doingthat, you need to give people
the muscle to speak upregardless.
(13:44):
One of the people I interviewedfrom my book is a former student
of mine, Francis Haugen.
She was the whistleblower atFacebook.
Yeah, she took a year thinkingthrough should I because this is
gonna blow up her career.
She here's a Harvard MBA,high-powered tech executive
living her dream.
But you see how she resourcedherself to take that action.
(14:07):
A, she didn't do it alone.
That's another myth that we havethat courage is a solo affair.
It takes a village.
And then I looked at the socialscience research and saw what
she had done.
In the research on support, theyfind that there are four types
of support that help people findvoice or courage.
(14:30):
First one is resource support.
Resources.
Second one is informationsupport.
Third one is moral support.
And the fourth one is appraisalor feedback support.
You can see this inentrepreneurs too.
If you get a really good venturecapitalist, they will not only
give you money, which isresources, they will also give
(14:51):
you information, they'll alsogive you moral support, and
they'll also give you feedbacksupport.
And that's what Frances found.
It was COVID.
She went home.
Her mother asked her, If you'reso upset, why aren't you doing
something about it?
And she said, Somebody elsecould, and why me?
SPEAKER_05 (15:09):
There are thousands of people working at Facebook.
Like, why should I be the one tohave to like bail the cat?
SPEAKER_06 (15:14):
And her mother's like, You're not you, then who?
And then she talked to areporter at the Wall Street
Journal, and the reporter said,We'll help you.
Then she talked to a law firmwhich specialized in
whistleblowers, and they said,Well, this is what you need to
do, and this is how it's gonnaaffect you, and this is how
you're protected.
(15:34):
She talked to a friend of herswho was a priest who gave her
feedback and said, Let's talk itthrough together, and let me
tell you how you're processingit.
So, you know, you discover thatcourageous actors are rarely
alone.
Now, I have to tell you, I wasembarrassed actually when I
found this research.
Because one of my favorite casesto teach is a case about Erna
(15:57):
Shackleton.
Shackleton is the South Poleexplorer who went down in the
1920s and tens, actually, downto the South Pole, and he was
with 28 men, his ship sinks, andthen he miraculously, oh, after
two years lost over there inthree lifeboats, he brings all
28 men back alive.
(16:17):
And we have black and whitevideo from a cameraman he took
with him back down there.
So we show the footage, we talkabout Shackleton, and it's
amazing.
What did Shackleton do?
What did Shackleton do?
So I'm writing this book, Irealized Shackleton didn't do it
alone.
He had two people in his innersupport squad without whom he
(16:38):
was toast in his own diaries.
He recorded moments of despair.
So I found that some courageouswere resourced with the
collective they were part of.
It sounds random that, oh yeah,Shackleton did it, must have
been a great guy, God knows whatkind of childhood he had, must
be an aberration, didn't have todeal with fear.
(17:00):
He's an exception, he's a hero.
And then people like me amplifythat heroic story, which I did
for a long time myself, andthey're like, No.
So that was insightful to me.
That there are these nuancesaround how these heroic
characters somehow take on fear.
(17:24):
He was scared.
He admitted he was scared.
You wouldn't think so.
You're a South Pole explorer,dude.
That's what you do for a living.
You've done it multiple timesgoing down the South Pole.
What do you mean you're scared?
You were scared.
SPEAKER_00 (17:43):
It's interesting because when I think about the
archetype of a CEO or thearchetype of a leader, feeling
fear, admitting fear, admittingvulnerability is typically not
part of that persona.
When we think about how weredefine courage at work, most
decisions CEOs are making rightnow.
It feels like they're going tosay, I have to make decisions
(18:03):
because I'm beholden to ashareholder, I'm beholden to the
system, I'm beholden to stockmarket price.
Because they're beholden tothat, it doesn't feel like the
risk of being courageous isworth the reward of it.
What's the upside for someone tobe courageous from a leadership
perspective?
SPEAKER_06 (18:22):
Francesco, you asked a great question.
Spot on, right on the money,right now, present time
question.
So let me go back in time.
Aristotle, one of the earliestessays I could find about
courage was Aristotle's writingabout courage.
And he made a distinction.
He said, on one extreme wascowardice, and the other extreme
(18:44):
was reckless.
And courage was somewhere in themiddle of that.
So courage in his mind wasdeliberate, thoughtful action in
the face of fear.
Not reckless.
Now there's a fine line betweenreckless and courageous, also,
right?
And part of the challenge forCEOs, which I think is now
(19:08):
powerful course, they have tosatisfy multiple stakeholders
simultaneously.
And those stakeholders want verydifferent things.
And you're never gonna makeeverybody happy.
Right?
So no matter what you do,somebody's gonna be pissed with
you and upset.
Employees want to get paid more,customers want to pay less,
(19:29):
right?
Society wants something fromyou.
So here you are trying tonavigate your way through that.
Right?
What is right and wrong is thereis no right or wrong.
Easy answer over here for you.
Well, guess what?
The job of a leader now isnavigating through a very
polarized environment wheredisparate stakeholders want very
(19:53):
different things from you.
And you gotta roll with thepunches.
The one study that triggeredthis whole project was a CEO
study of what do CEOs do in downmarkets?
And it was based on a verysimple idea that all CEOs tell
you that the best time to getahead of competition is not up
markets, it's down markets.
(20:15):
But so I said, okay, let's see.
So I actually got data goingback three recessions.
This is in 2010.
And I said, let me see how manycompanies invest for growth in
down markets.
What do you think?
What number?
SPEAKER_00 (20:29):
I know the number, but I'm gonna overshoot it.
I'm gonna say 1% because I knowwhat the number is.
SPEAKER_06 (20:34):
Okay.
It was 9%.
SPEAKER_00 (20:35):
9%.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (20:37):
And those companies came out of the recession much
stronger.
That's why the article, whichwas published in Harvard
Business Review, was calledRoaring Out of Recessions.
But it it was just to mefascinating to see what the 91%
were doing.
They all know it intellectually,but I have to admit, I my
hypothesis, I didn't interviewanybody in a recession.
(20:59):
I'm waiting for anotherrecession so I can find out what
they are doing.
SPEAKER_00 (21:03):
Wait too much.
I'm just gonna wait two monthsand I'll be here.
SPEAKER_06 (21:10):
Hey, give me a recession.
I need to do a research studythen.
Come on.
SPEAKER_00 (21:14):
You got it.
SPEAKER_06 (21:15):
I know exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (21:17):
There's a few things that really strike me because
Mel and I met at Deloitte.
And one of the things thatDeloitte was very much known for
was being a people-centricorganization.
And that was something that waspart of their core purpose that
we are the people firm.
And in 2008, 2009, I rememberBarry Salzberg, who was the CEO
(21:37):
at the time, made a capital callto all the partners and said,
You guys need to cop, you guys,gals, people need to cop up a
lot of money each to build whatwas called Dullet University
down in Westlake, Texas, becausewe are going to invest in a
culture of learning and aculture of development for our
people.
Now, this is 2009, right?
(21:58):
And the economy is still notgreat.
They are investing, they're partof that 9% that you talked
about.
And when they came out of therecession, they were so much
further ahead because they hadthis stack of talent on board,
people that believed in theirpurpose.
They were known as the peoplefirm.
And by the way, they rode thatbrand very deeply for the next
(22:23):
10 years.
When you have this unifyingpurpose and you're making the
moves, even in down markets, tomake good on that promise, make
good on that purpose.
People live that and they feelthat.
(22:43):
I understand why the 9%, I lovethat you did this research, that
they actually do better whenthey come out of it, because
that's always been our theory,but it's nice that you have the
numbers around it.
But it takes these courageousmoves, though, to make good on
that frame.
We've seen this and we keep onseeing this, and we'd love to
see more of it because whenpeople do act in this way and
(23:04):
towards that purpose, they comeout better for it.
And honestly, it's a betterplace to work.
Most of the time, people rightnow are just this place blows.
The energy blows, the tensionsthere.
But then when you have thesecompanies that have this
rallying cry to your point aboutculture having an emotional
energy to it, it just feels morevirtuous in general.
SPEAKER_06 (23:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's interesting.
I've studied founder-ledcompanies in the past, and you
look at some of the foundersafter they leave or when the
company gets big, one of theirfirst common laments is my
company has lost its soul.
unknown (23:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (23:40):
Even if you look at Starbucks, their founder, Howard
Schultz, multiple times hassaid, Oh my God, the company's
lost its soul.
We've lost our soul.
I gotta come back.
I know.
That's the other part of it.
That's a bad side of it.
Recently, Lul Lemon's foundersaid the same thing about Lulu
Lemon.
Uh-huh.
That Luleman has lost his soul.
There's so many, I'm teaching anMBA class on turnarounds and
(24:02):
transformations.
And so many of them talk aboutthis idea, but I also want to
clarify that sometimes this boldaction doesn't work out.
Courage, by definition, involvessticking your neck out.
It doesn't always pan out.
I wrote a case on WeightWatchers.
They hired a really dynamic,smart CEO, Seema Sistani, who
(24:23):
was quick to see that WeightWatchers had to start
prescribing GLP ones, eventhough it went fundamentally
against everything they believedin.
So she buys a company that'sprescribing it.
It's just the world is moving sofast that they're not able to
turn the corner as fast as theworld is turning.
(24:45):
Or Blackberry, which brought ina guy called John Chan, who
said, We're done with hardware.
We need to be a software companybecause we have the most secure
software backbone even today.
Right?
Because Blackberries, that's whyBlackberries were the most
secure devices.
So let's become a software.
Great idea, amazingly wellexecuted.
(25:07):
You're a publicly listedcompany, and it's really hard to
convince the market that you area different company now.
We always measure things by theoutcome, not by the process or
the effort.
Yeah.
So not every courageous actionhas a kind of a happy ending to
the story.
Some of them don't always playout in the way you would have
(25:32):
hoped.
But doesn't mean these actionswere not courageous.
SPEAKER_02 (25:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (25:36):
And these were hard.
So I'm seeing now these storiesof transformations.
Some of them are amazing.
They work out.
And we are, by the way, webusiness observers, researchers,
we're very opportunistic.
If it works out, we say, oh,what a genius! I knew it.
I knew they were gonna do that.
That was brilliant.
And if it doesn't work out, wesay, what a loser.
I would have told you right awayfrom there was a this was a
(25:58):
stupid idea.
And I don't agree.
I think sometimes, but inorganizations today, we need to
learn to be more bold.
SPEAKER_04 (26:17):
You have outlined the five courage strategies.
Yeah, we've talked about acouple of them, like in the
context of individuals, but I'mhoping we could talk about them
in the context of like teams andin organizations, like with if
you're a leader in anorganization.
One is around changing thenarrative or creating a more
positive narrative.
(26:38):
So when fatigue sets in,reframing, but how can you help
your team without sounding likea motivational poster when the
world feels like it's on fire?
How can you create thatnarrative that creates an
environment where they feel likeit is safe to be courageous or
bold, even if that bold movedoesn't give the outcome that
(27:00):
was desired?
SPEAKER_06 (27:02):
A couple of thoughts.
You mentioned the wordnarrative.
And actually that was thestarting point for the whole
story.
SPEAKER_02 (27:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (27:11):
And I think narrative is personal,
individual, but it can be for ateam and can be for an
organization.
And it's fascinating that wethink it's true, but it turns
out to be very powerfully true.
You change the narrative, youchange your behavior.
And there's a really oldresearch to back this up.
So there was in the 1800s, therewas a very famous sociologist,
(27:34):
Max Weber, and Weber wanted tostudy what propels human action.
Logics for action.
And the straw man was the logicfor action is very utilitarian
calculus rational, cost benefit.
And it's true, that is a verypowerful motivator of human
(27:55):
behavior.
Would you agree with that?
You do the cost benefit.
SPEAKER_02 (27:59):
It's powerful, it matters.
SPEAKER_06 (28:01):
We all calculate cost benefit and say, is it
worth it or not worth it?
Then I do it.
But he also pointed out thatthere's another logic for action
which is more interpretive.
It's meaning.
It's emotional.
You may call it non-rational,even.
(28:22):
But it's powerful.
And this meaning interpretationof the world is about how you
look at the situation and howyou look at yourself in the
situation.
It's both.
It's outward looking and it'sinward looking.
It's how you understand.
And I think as a team leader, Ithink we need to reframe our
(28:46):
narrative that what is thesituation?
This is our moment.
This is our Olympic moment.
I'll give you an extreme exampleof this.
So I interviewed a lady, Dr.
Summa Jang, who was an ERphysician down in New Orleans.
And at that time, in duringearly days of COVID, she was a
young mother with two childrenin her 30s.
(29:08):
And COVID took off.
And she's in the ER every daywith people coming in with very
advanced stages of COVID.
Most of them, even when vaccinescame out, refused to get
vaccinated down there because ofall the misinformation going
around.
And she has to decide (29:25):
should I keep coming in?
I'm going home every night and Igot two little kids and I got a
husband.
unknown (29:32):
Right?
SPEAKER_06 (29:32):
Now she's doing all the things that we don't know.
She's like washing herself,taking a shower, going, coming
in through the basement,throwing out her clothes into
the washing machine, doing allthat stuff, but she's still
worried.
And she and her teammates talkedabout it, and they said, if we
abandon work now, what were wedoing?
This is our Olympic moment.
(29:53):
So how you look at the situationand say It's great to be a hero
in good times.
What are we gonna do to up ourgame now?
How do we step up?
So, how do we create thatemotional energy that this is
our hero moment and this is whatwe were meant to do?
And it's gonna be hard, it'sgonna be scary, but we can do
(30:17):
it.
So that's changing thenarrative.
Another piece of the puzzlethere is how do you build up the
confidence?
Mo a lot of times people look atdifficult, challenging things,
and they're not sure they can doit.
So, how do you build up that?
It's not confidence only, it'swhat uh this famous Stanford
(30:40):
psychologist Albert Banduracalls self-efficacy.
How do you build self-efficacy?
And so that's another piece ofthis.
Again, I'm talking about how youhow do you resource the team to
support each other, to changethe narrative, to build up their
(31:00):
confidence, to align it withtheir purpose, maybe if you want
to.
I think all these things becomeimportant as they are for
individuals, as they can be forteams.
So I think the narrative idea isa big one.
SPEAKER_01 (31:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (31:16):
And the next one I was going to ask about was also
confidence.
It's something that you broughtup earlier, is like the word
uncertainty, just it's almostlike death tasks and uncertainty
are now the three big things youcan always plan on.
And so when you think about wheneveryone is in this position of
being underqualified for thefuture, is it just accepting
(31:37):
that and just owning it?
And does that help buildconfidence?
Hey, look, we're allunderqualified here because none
of us can ever really predictthe future.
SPEAKER_06 (31:48):
Look, I think you're right.
None of us can predict thefuture.
None of us knows what work isgonna look like in five years.
But I think we can prepareourselves for what is coming
down the road as best we can,knowing that it might not be the
right preparation, might be thewrong preparation, but I'm gonna
do it.
(32:08):
I'll give you you can't justrely on luck.
unknown (32:11):
No.
SPEAKER_06 (32:12):
So it's not like I'm gonna just wait and see, and
hopefully it'll work out.
Shackleton, back to Shackletonagain.
At the end of it, when he comesback, a reporter asks him, like,
hey, listen, I know youeveryone's saying you're this
leader who heroically broughtall your people back alive, but
listen, you got lucky.
You go in a lifeboat across 800miles on the roughest sea on the
(32:33):
planet, and somehow magically,without a full navigation set of
equipment, you land on thatlittle island where the whaling
station is.
That's luck, right?
Then you have no mountain andgear, mountaineering gear, you
cross over mountains andglaciers across the island to
get to the whaling station.
That's also luck.
So Shackleton listens to him andsays, You know, you're
(32:55):
absolutely right.
We were very lucky, but we gaveluck a chance.
We gave luck a chance.
So, what are we gonna do to giveluck a chance?
You're gonna need some luck inin these kind of crazy uh
uncertain times.
You're gonna need some luck, butwhat are you gonna do to give
luck a chance?
So, I think it's the question toask is how do I retool myself?
(33:18):
Yeah, and having that can-domindset I can do it versus a
victim routine.
I gotta tell you, the mostcomforting feeling for most of
us is to feel like a victim.
Because why?
Because then you can blameeverybody else.
SPEAKER_04 (33:38):
Safety.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (33:41):
And so that is a big learning I had as I was
observing some of thesecharacters.
SPEAKER_04 (33:47):
A lot of teams always look to their leader,
right?
You set the tone.
So when a leader is feelinguncertain and struggling with
their own confidence becausethey might not have all of the
answers, what can leaders do tolean into that and own it maybe
a little to help their team havecourage?
SPEAKER_06 (34:06):
So I'm a big fan of my colleague and friend Bill
George, who wrote aboutauthentic leadership.
But I think some people tookthis, his really pioneering
ideas into this vulnerability isa good thing.
And I think we took thisvulnerability too far.
I think in times of uncertainty,followers don't want their
leaders falling apart.
SPEAKER_05 (34:27):
I don't know what to do.
I have no idea.
SPEAKER_06 (34:30):
What do you guys think?
I'm just being vulnerable withyou.
No.
Yeah.
This is times when followerswant confidence, clarity, right?
They want certainty more thanuncertainty.
You have to, as leader, shoulderthat uncertainty on you.
Now, I did say earlier, youdon't have to do it yourself.
You can find your own supportswap to help you shoulder it.
(34:54):
But ultimately, you have toabsorb, you have to be a shock
absorber for others and resourceyourself to be able to manage to
navigate your way through thisuncertainty.
Indecision kicks in, right?
Nobody wants to make a decision.
So guess what?
You as a leader, I have to likenudge that along and say, we're
(35:14):
gonna make some tough decisions.
SPEAKER_04 (35:17):
Yeah, that was like the fourth thing I was gonna
talk about here was what yousaid about that community and
finding connection.
That's what's going to help thatleader.
It's so important for leaders tohave that outside community too.
So they can do that because it'sa team sport that will help fuel
everything.
SPEAKER_06 (35:33):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (35:34):
I'm curious about what's giving you hope about
courage in the workplace today.
Are you seeing glimmers of hopeor things that make you feel
like a couple of things.
SPEAKER_06 (35:46):
Unrelated to my book.
It's not, oh, they're allreading my book and now I have
hope.
That's not the answer.
Just to be very clear, I thinkis the fact that so many leaders
are recognizing that courage isa key driver for their future
success, that being bold intimes of uncertainty is going to
(36:10):
unlock their strategy andcompetitive advantage.
And that they recognize thatthey can't do it alone.
You can't wave a wand and makethe company or the organization
courageous.
I think that gives me hope.
The realization they understandthat to win in the marketplace,
to be a winning company, you'regonna need courage.
(36:33):
And I'm just finishing a case onBoston Scientific, which
actually 12 years ago was afailing company and today is a
$150 billion company.
You know what the mantra for thecompany was when the CEO took
over, Mike Mahoney took over 12years ago?
Winning spirit.
(36:53):
Right?
So this kind of recognition thatwinning, bold, courage
translates into market success.
That organizations are naturallyrisk-averse, that you need to
really nudge them collectivelyto think courageously.
(37:14):
And I think so.
People working in organizationsshould realize that courage is
gonna be a currency.
It's gonna be winning for theorganization, for the teams, and
for individuals who decide totake bold action.
It's not gonna work out everytime, but I think penalizing for
bold behavior is gonna go awayor go down compared to what
(37:38):
we've been used to.
Conformity is not whatorganizations are gonna expect
from their people.
I think we'll be better off forit.
SPEAKER_03 (37:47):
It's refreshing.
SPEAKER_06 (37:48):
Yeah.
That's my hope.
I'm a hopeful person.
I like to believe in the best.
So fingers crossed.
SPEAKER_04 (38:06):
All right, rapid round, Ranjay.
It is 2030.
What do you think work is goingto look like?
SPEAKER_06 (38:15):
Very different.
And and I think we all don'thave a clear idea of what it
will look like.
SPEAKER_04 (38:21):
Yeah.
Okay.
What's one thing about corporateculture you wish would just die
already?
SPEAKER_06 (38:32):
The fact that if you look at how people experience
work and the fact that the twomost common emotions at work are
fear and anger is not a goodthing.
I think culture is not justbehavioral norms, it's emotions.
It is emotional culture.
And I think we're in a placewhere we need to re reset
culture to elicit positiveemotions, not just fear and
(38:55):
anger.
SPEAKER_04 (38:58):
What do you think the greatest opportunity most
organizations are missing out onright now?
SPEAKER_06 (39:07):
I think we are missing out on the opportunity
to realize that as human beings,we aspire to be part of
something bigger than ourselves.
And when we are feel connectedto something bigger than
ourselves, we're willing to goto great lengths for it.
And we have yet to fully tapinto that innate human desire to
feel like I'm having an impact,I'm making a difference, I'm
(39:30):
really reshaping a market, acustomer experience, or even the
way the world around me works.
SPEAKER_04 (39:38):
Yeah.
Okay.
This is a little personal.
I don't mean to put you on thespot.
What music are you listening toright now?
SPEAKER_06 (39:46):
Oh, the music I listen to.
I love Ed Shirin.
SPEAKER_03 (39:50):
Oh, do you?
What's your favorite Ed Shurinsong?
SPEAKER_06 (39:53):
Huh?
SPEAKER_03 (39:54):
Do you have a favorite or are you just
Photograph?
SPEAKER_06 (39:56):
Photograph?
SPEAKER_03 (39:57):
Yeah, it's so good.
That's so good.
SPEAKER_04 (39:59):
Okay.
What are you reading right now?
It could be an audiobook.
It could not be a book.
It could be a magazine, likesomething that brings you joy.
SPEAKER_06 (40:08):
I have been reading, rereading Atomic Habits and
another book called To Risk ItAll.
Oh.
That's the Navy Admiral.
SPEAKER_04 (40:20):
Oh, that sounds interesting.
Who do you really admire?
SPEAKER_06 (40:27):
I admire the person who wrote the foreword to my
book, which is His Holiness theDalai Lama.
SPEAKER_04 (40:32):
Yeah.
That's a big one.
What's a piece of advice youwould like to leave everyone
with if they get nothing elseout of today?
What would you want them to walkaway with?
SPEAKER_06 (40:47):
There's a reason Aristotle said courage is the
master virtue that unlocks allother virtues.
And I think when we findcourage, it allows us to do so
much more with our lives.
SPEAKER_00 (41:01):
Ranjay, thanks so much for joining us today.
Appreciate you.
SPEAKER_06 (41:05):
It was great to talk to both of you.
SPEAKER_04 (41:07):
How can folks stay in touch with you?
SPEAKER_06 (41:09):
LinkedIn is the best way to find me.
I have a newsletter I put out onLinkedIn every week or two.
I have a website which isRanjaybolati.com.
Thank you, Mel.
Thank you, Francesca.
SPEAKER_03 (41:20):
Thank you.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_04 (41:23):
This episode was produced, edited, and all things
by us, myself, Mel Platt, andFrancesca Reneri.
Our music is by Pink Zebra.
And if you loved thisconversation and you want to
contribute your thoughts withus, please do.
You can visit us atyourworkfriends.com.
(41:43):
But you can also join us over onLinkedIn, join us in the
socials.
And if you like this and you'vebenefited from this episode, and
you think someone else canbenefit from this episode,
please rate and subscribe.
We'd really appreciate it.
That helps keep us going.
Take care, friends.
Bye, friends.
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Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.