October 14, 2025 • 41 mins
Ever felt like you’re on your own at work—even in a “great culture”?
That’s because culture isn’t the same as community.
One happens whether you shape it or not. The other takes intention, safety, and a shared purpose.
In this episode of Your Work Friends, we sit down with DeMario Bell—community strategist, speaker, and founder of Gatherful, who’s spent over a decade building communities across higher ed, startups, and global enterprise, including leading Culture Amp’s 100,000+ member HR community.
We talk about:
- The difference between a workplace and a true community
- Why family is inherited but community is chosen
- How psychological safety is the real test of culture
- Common mistakes leaders make when “building community”
- The role of vulnerability, trust, and micro-moments in belonging
- Why the future of work is “more human, more diverse, and more fluid”
If you’ve ever wondered how to build connection that lasts—without forcing fake “family” vibes—this conversation will make you rethink what healthy community really looks like at work.
More about DeMario:
Disclaimer: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered professional advice. We are not responsible for any losses, damages, or liabilities that may arise from the use of this podcast. The views expressed in this podcast may not be those of the host or the management.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
People join a community for utility, but they
(00:03):
stay for the unity.
SPEAKER_00 (00:18):
Hello.
Yeah.
Hi.
Hi.
How's it going?
Good.
Good.
Good.
That's good.
That's good.
We had the pleasure of meetingwith DiMario Bell today.
DeMario spent over a decadebuilding communities across
higher ed startups, scale-ups,global enterprise.
(00:41):
I had the pleasure of meetingDiMario when I went out on my
own as an entrepreneur leavingcorporate.
I joined the Culture AMPcommunity, which is awesome.
And he was co-leading theCulture First community for
them, which had over 100,000plus global HR leaders in that
group.
When you think about that, whatdo you think about?
SPEAKER_01 (01:03):
That's ginormous.
I know they had live events, butit's also mostly virtual, right?
SPEAKER_00 (01:08):
It's mostly virtual, asynchronous, like a mega Slack
group.
When you think about thatnumber, you think, ah, how much
community can I get out of here?
He really led the way.
He facilitated that.
I felt like I was part ofsomething.
I still do.
I'm going to invent next weekpart of that organization.
So when I think of communitybuilders, he is the expert in
this space.
(01:28):
He's also the founder ofGatherful, where he's helping to
create communities thattransform organizations through
his strategy work and workshopsand speaking.
Super excited to share thisconversation with our listeners.
What do you think?
SPEAKER_01 (01:42):
I think the real flux in life and certainly in
work is having a very strongcommunity or feeling like you're
part of something, feeling thatyou're safe.
And DiMario laid out how do youactually do that?
What are the bits that need tobe in place for that to really
thrive?
SPEAKER_00 (02:02):
Yeah.
It's in the everyday things,day-to-day moments, little
moments throughout the day, andfocusing on the human.
So with that, here's DiMario.
(02:23):
All right.
I'd love to jump into yourjourney.
Something that I read on yourwebsite, and I loved it, was
that you said, communitybuilding is in my DNA.
Tell us more about that.
SPEAKER_02 (02:33):
Yeah, I appreciate the question.
I love all things community.
My grandmother would tell me,God rest her soul, she used to
tell me that she noticed mebeing an introvert early on,
where my siblings, she'll watchthem play with the neighbors and
notice me assess the crowd andthen go and play.
As a child, I often found myselfin the role of organizing my
(02:54):
friends together.
So this is before we wereFacebook and all the social
media apps.
You all know where all yourfriends were hanging out because
you saw all the bikes in thefront yard.
So you knew that's whereeveryone was.
That I was that person.
Typically, all the bikes were atmy house.
The other piece, which is soimportant to my identity, Mel
(03:14):
and Francesca, is I identify asa first-generation college
graduate.
And here in the United States, Ioften say that universities
weren't designed for firstgeneration students in mind.
And so when I went to college,it was almost like taking my
parents to college as well,because they didn't know what
they didn't know.
And they're wonderful people.
They have wonderful lives.
But I noticed for me it was botha blessing and a curse to have
(03:37):
that badge of honor because Iwas also figuring out that road.
And part of that I had to figureout my people because college
really creates this distinctionbetween haves and have-nots.
Now, people will argue me that'snot true, but if you've been to
a four-year institution, youcertainly see that dynamic play
out, whether overtly orsubliminally.
So for me, the reason why I saycommunity is in my DNA because I
(04:00):
love all these people and I lovegathering people together.
I have a natural love forhumanity and I love the power of
people.
Good things happen when thecommunity comes together.
And so as someone who spent mylife building community, I've
seen that to be true.
So I get out of bed for it.
I really do.
SPEAKER_00 (04:20):
Yeah, I love that.
And also as a fellow first genperson, I hear you.
It was hard.
It was hard to do that.
So I love that that's whatfueled you.
And finding that and creatingthat for others is really
meaningful because it takescommunity to thrive for sure.
SPEAKER_02 (04:37):
Well, that's right.
It goes back to that old saying,it takes a village for sure.
What's so beautiful aboutcommunity is that we all want to
feel a part of something biggerthan ourselves.
And we all want to feel lessalone.
SPEAKER_00 (04:50):
Were there any pivotal moments for you when you
realized wow, there's real powerhere in professional settings
with communities?
SPEAKER_02 (04:58):
Another question, and let me just say how I fell
into community professionally,actually.
Yeah.
I was actually working in edtech.
So I left higher education, andI tell people I left higher
education because I just need tomake a little bit more money,
just a little bit.
And I found my way in tech.
I'm building community on thecustomer side.
(05:19):
And I remember just going to myleadership at the time to ask,
how are we connecting customersat scale?
Because customers want to beconnected to each other.
And I found my way becomingtheir head of community over
developing out a new programaround community.
And it was there when I noticedhow do we connect people at
scale?
How do we move from one-to-onerelationships to many
relationships?
My former company, Culture Imp,I led our HR community there.
(05:43):
It was the same thing.
It's great to have these one-offconversations with each other
around best practices or feelingless alone.
But the real opportunity that Isaw was how do we democratize
this and really think about thisfrom the other end and making it
many to many?
So, what are the programs thatwe need to put in place where it
(06:05):
doesn't always have to betop-down in terms of driving
community?
But how do we create theconditions for everyone to feel
like they are empowered tocreate community themselves and
that everyone knows that theyare a part of creating
community, whether they know itor not?
So for me, that's when I startto see there's an opportunity
here for organizations to reallyput structure around this and at
(06:27):
the same time really empoweryour people to help co-create
that experience.
SPEAKER_00 (06:32):
Like in your mind, everyone is a community leader
and should be, and think ofthemselves that way within an
org.
unknown (06:39):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (06:40):
I agree.
Sounds right.
I look are very similar.
And community and culturehappens whether you shape it or
not.
It just depends on are yougetting the right type of
community and the right type ofculture.
And so hopefully you'll be anactive participant in that and
you're shaping it.
SPEAKER_01 (07:00):
One of the things I look at a lot is almost every
organization says, oh, we have agreat culture, or we're an
amazing community.
SPEAKER_02 (07:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (07:08):
And I'm curious as to how you distinguish whether
or not someone has a community,as in they have employees
working for them, yes, versusthey truly have a community.
What is the distinction for you?
Or maybe said differently, howdo you define a real community
in a workplace?
SPEAKER_02 (07:25):
Oh, I love that question.
Thank you.
I always tell people it justcan't be 40 people in a room.
It has to be the right 40people.
At its core, community is aboutshared purpose.
It's about connection, it'sabout getting to this goalpost.
This isn't an original thought,and I'm borrowing this from
someone, but people join acommunity for utility, but they
(07:47):
stay for the unity.
So to get to your question,Francesca, when organizations
say that we have a greatcommunity or we have a great
culture, hey, that's subjective.
Because of course every companyis going to want to say that
about themselves.
What company is going to say, wehave a really sucky culture
here?
SPEAKER_00 (08:06):
Yeah.
You get paid.
That's what they're doing.
We're the most okay organizationthere is.
SPEAKER_02 (08:13):
So how you're able to distinguish if a company
truly they're living that talkin terms of community, I want to
go back to psychological safety.
And psychological safety isimportant in every community.
Can I show up in the totality ofwho I am?
When I think about the personwho I am, now I want to opt into
(08:35):
those parts that I flex or not,but can I show up in the
totality of who I am withoutretribution?
If I push back and you disagree,will there be any negative
consequences to that?
Do my colleagues feel empoweredto choose how and where they
work?
So there are a number offactors, and this is gonna vary
(08:55):
per organization, what communitylooks like and what it feels
like, but everyone has toparticipate it in it.
And I think at the core of it,there has to be that
psychological safety there.
And psychological safety is notmanufactured, it's cultivated
over time.
And you're gonna get what youput into it.
(09:15):
And so when companies say thatwe have psychological safety, my
follow-up question becomes whofeels psychologically safe here?
And the same thing aboutcommunity, when they say we have
a community, who feels like theycan participate in that
community, and then who's notparticipating in that community?
I often find myself trying tofigure out who's not opting in
(09:36):
and how do we get those folksbought in.
And it's typically the peoplewho are like us, black and brown
folks, women, we're justhistorically in the workplaces,
they weren't designed for us.
So we have our microcommunities,but when we think about broader
community, I wish I had like aperfect analogy.
Let me say this (09:54):
when I'm cooking something and I'm using
butter or grease, I'll dipsomething in there first just to
see if it's hot enough, just totest it, to see if it's okay to
start cooking.
I feel the same way aboutcommunity.
Like for me, it's like I want totest it to see if it's real.
And if it's not real, or if itdoesn't feel good to me, I'm
gonna opt out just to protectmyself and treat work as work.
(10:15):
So that was a long answer to saythat you can test it to see if
psychological safety is reallypresent in an organization.
That's how you'll get tocommunity.
SPEAKER_01 (10:25):
First of all, I love the cooking analogy.
I'm Italian, so that reallyworks with me.
Appreciate that.
Here's a follow-up question onthat.
Should organizations designcommunity with the assumption
that everybody's going to joinor that everybody needs to feel
it.
Or there's one big community, ordoes it need to be like
microcommunities?
Is it a big city?
Is it a neighborhood?
Is it a state?
Is it a country?
(10:46):
What are we doing here with thecommunity structure?
SPEAKER_02 (10:52):
It's a complicated one, but let me hit that from a
couple of angles.
Okay, do you often say that whenbuilding community, know who
you're building community for?
And I think the same thing withorganizations.
When you think about I want tobuild this amazing culture and
this amazing community, then whoare you building it for?
If your employees are yourstakeholders, then who is your
(11:12):
employee?
Do you know your employee enoughto know the type of community
that you are building for?
Should community solve for allthings?
I don't think so.
And some people might disagreewith me on that because I'm not
one of those people who say thatthe top is responsible for all
things community and all thingsculture.
We all have this sharedresponsibility.
(11:34):
What leadership is responsiblefor is creating those conditions
for folks to be able to createcommunity.
Let's just say that there's abig company and culturally at a
mega level, the culture isn'tthe greatest, but you can find
that in pockets, which I canfind that within my team.
And so I feel psychologicallysafe.
I feel great about showing upevery day because I know the
(11:57):
people I daily interact with arecreating this layer of
vulnerability, honesty, trust,credibility, and psychological
safety, regardless of what'shappening at the macro level.
I know that the people Iinteract with are making me feel
safe because I can't controlthat what's happening there.
I might influence it at themicro level.
So I say it to say thatorganizations, they should have
(12:19):
a culture that they want to feelinclusive and welcoming to
everyone, but set thoseparameters and frameworks for
managers, for individualcontributors, and even the
directors and VPs to be able tocreate a culture that is
specific to the teams in whichthey're on.
Because the thing aboutcommunity and culture is that
they're fluid, they're notfixed.
(12:40):
And so, depending on who thepeople are, it will evolve, it
will change.
And so, Francesca, I will saythat at a mega level, there
needs to be parameters, but Idon't know that everyone needs
to feel like they're a part ofthis larger community if you can
find it in pockets.
SPEAKER_01 (12:54):
Which makes sense, right?
Going back to your point aroundlike shared purpose, a lot of
times I'm gonna probably findthat smaller, more local towards
the context of the work, thecontext of the industry I'm
working in.
And if Jerry from accounting isa total asshole, then you know,
okay, you know, we havedifferent parameters, right?
Okay, one of the like I have, Ithink we share this to Mario.
(13:14):
Mel shares this as well.
Speak for her because she's mywork wife, is this idea of
workplaces referring to eachother as family, right?
It just uh nails on thechatboard thing, Mabab.
Do you share this opinion andwhy?
SPEAKER_02 (13:27):
It's a great question, and it's a nuanced
question at that.
So I'm not one of those peoplewho refer to my colleagues or
work dynamic in terms of family.
And I know people do it, and Ihear the spirit of that, so I
don't want to antagonize thosewho do it because I hear the
spirit of it.
The simple answer, Francesca, isthat at work we are not a
(13:50):
family.
We might get close to it, might,but we are not a family because
family is inherited andcommunity is chosen.
And so we're born or broughtinto a family, and we don't
typically get to opt in or outof that.
Whereas on a community, on theother hand, that's built through
sheer choice.
(14:11):
The other thing I would say isthat family is permanent,
whereas community is fluid.
Family tends to be a fixed unit.
The relationships might evolve,but the structure doesn't change
too much.
I'm gonna always be my mother'sson.
Like that dynamic will not everchange.
Whereas with community, if we'repart of a community and we don't
(14:33):
vibe with it anymore, we go frombeing community members to now
our relationship might look alittle bit differently because
we're not in that place thatbrought us together.
And then the other thing I wouldsay about that is that family is
about identity, where communityis about connection and purpose.
And so I think whenorganizations refer to
(14:53):
themselves as a family, they'retrying to get to some of those
characteristics that remind usof a family.
And let me say this (14:59):
when we think about community and
culture, family is our firstexample of that.
It's the first tribe.
And so when companies comparethemselves to or say that we're
like a family or we are afamily, they're one of us to
feel like you belong here orthat you'll find your people
here.
(15:19):
I would prefer we're a communitybecause community is strong and
rich in of itself.
Family is messy.
And listen, my family is not allroses.
And there are times when I haveto just put some folks on ice,
but we always come back to eachother lovingly.
At work, we have a team calledemployer relations.
(15:41):
If you do anything wrong atwork, there are conditions
around that.
If you say the wrong thing tothe wrong person and you say,
oh, we're just like family,there's a thing called an ER
report that could possibly befiled, if not worse.
And so I also don't want tomislead people to believe that
if you lean too much into that,that's not without some
(16:04):
consequences.
I see that to say, if I got intoa disagreement with a family
member, we can work that out.
We can come back together andwork depending on that power
dynamic.
That's not always the case.
There are other things thatshape that.
So it's different, it's acommunity.
And I think that we can lean oncommunity being that powerful
descriptor of saying that youbelong here and you can find
(16:26):
your people here without havingto use family to mislabel that.
SPEAKER_01 (16:30):
Beautifully said.
Yeah.
It's so true, too, because youcan't choose your family.
And I think everybody, and Idon't care who you are, everyone
has some nuts people in theirfamily.
I probably am the nuts person inmy family.
You can uh, you know, lay offUncle What's his butt at
Thanksgiving.
You know what I'm saying?
It's but you're not gonna hithim with an ER report.
This is a choice versusinherited.
SPEAKER_00 (16:51):
I love that distinguished.
Thank you.
Yeah.
You might not hit them with theER report.
You might call the cops, though.
Things are gonna have happen.
Um just joking, we could cutthat.
(17:22):
Common mistakes companies make.
What are some frequent misstepsthat you see organizations
making when they're trying tobuild community?
And how can they avoid it?
Please stop doing this tomorrow.
What would you advise?
SPEAKER_02 (17:35):
Can I be honest with you?
Absolutely.
I'm gonna talk about it from myown lived experiences.
I say this in just and in truth.
Like, stop thinking becausefolks share the same racial
ethnicities andor identitiesthat we have this monolithic
experience.
And the same thing happens withgender with women.
(17:55):
We are all coming to the spacewith different lived
experiences.
And so I see organizations oftenmake this assumption and then
they tokenize individuals whoare part of a community to
represent an entire voice.
I would also say when you thinkabout building community, it
doesn't always have to be big.
And so I think when companiesare thinking about how do I
(18:17):
build community, how do I buildculture, it has to be this grand
act.
And I see that community is likea relationship, it's just a
frequency of touch.
And so you give me a Slackchannel, you let me label that,
I'm gonna throw my people inthere.
That's me building community.
So I would say thatorganization, stop thinking that
you have to attach a budget toit, although that would be nice.
(18:38):
But some of the most powerfullevers that you can activate is
simply empowering your people.
That's the second piece.
That first piece was noteverybody shares the same
experience.
The other thing that I would saystop doing, stop treating your
employees like they're children,talk to them like they're
adults.
I've seen this time and timeagain, especially when the
(18:58):
companies are underperforming orthere's a performance evaluation
that's happening, and then therebecomes this, at least from my
own experience, where I feltlike you're talking to me like I
don't understand or comprehend.
And I get it, like when thingsare happening, internal comms
are saying, don't say this,don't say that.
But tell us the truth.
Be real with us, because thedecisions that an organization
(19:20):
chooses to make or don't make,it impacts me.
And I gotta go home and havethat conversation with my family
around what do we need to dobased on what's happening here.
And then the last thing that Iwould say that I would encourage
organizations to stop doing isstop thinking that it's growth
versus community.
I often hear organizations say,once we get growth, then we can
(19:42):
focus on community, then we canfocus on culture.
And I think that calculus is allwrong because if you invest in
community, if you invest andinvest in culture, you're gonna
get productivity.
Because me, if I feel like, oh,I get to jam out with Mel and
Francesca every day, they'recreating the conditions for me
to come to work to be creative,try new things, test, iterate,
(20:04):
and fail, and be able to becoached on how I can do that
differently.
I want to give 110% that nextquarter.
I want to give 150% that nextquarter.
But if you beat me to hell,telling me we got to close this
gap by the end of the quarter,I'm burnt out.
So by Q1, I'm not operating from100%.
I'm operating from 40 or 30%,and I'm emptying myself out,
(20:26):
trying to give more and more.
So organizations understand thatif you invest in the culture and
the community piece, people willinnately give you that 110%.
And your top performers, you'llnotice that it's not about
dangling the carrot, trying tokeep them with a retention
bonus, more pay, and well, allthose things are great.
But if I know I can come to workand be my best self and I have
(20:48):
the resources that I need, thosethings are ancillary to what I
really want, which is to come towork and feel empowered.
SPEAKER_00 (20:54):
I was gonna ask a question about the role of
vulnerability.
What role do you think thatplays in building that trust and
community in the workplace andamong teams?
SPEAKER_02 (21:02):
Yeah, it's a part of the calculus.
You can't have trust withoutvulnerability.
Because I was talking to afriend of mine, and she asked
me, she said, Why is it thatevery time we talk, she said,
you ask me about me, and thenwhen I ask about you, you don't
share as much.
And she said, relationship isabout us both giving and us both
being able to share.
(21:23):
And I wasn't doing that becauseI was being off-putting.
For me, it was just like me justbeing in my own way.
So I say that to say thatvulnerability is important
because it is a key ingredientin trust.
If you show me a little bitabout you, I will show a little
bit about me.
And we established that in thebeginning of the call when I
shared that I'm afirst-generation college
(21:45):
graduate.
Now, I don't mind saying that,but I also know other people
don't like that part of theiridentity to be talked about.
And so what that did was, um,Mel, it created this trust
between you and I because now weknow what that experience is
like.
And experience is what connectsus together.
Um, the same thing.
(22:05):
Like we we were both from thesame town.
Francesca and I, we have a lovefor food.
That's an experience in which wecan build on, and then the
vulnerable piece of that, we cantalk about the good, the bad,
the ugly in that.
So you have to havevulnerability if you're gonna
get to trust.
But you also have to feel likeyou can be vulnerable and not
have it weaponized against youas well.
SPEAKER_00 (22:28):
Yeah, I think that's such a huge key, right?
Because that's a barrier.
That's that psychological safetycoming in to be like, yep, I can
share myself here.
SPEAKER_01 (22:39):
Let's say psychological safety exists or
there is a level of trust, andI'm a leader in an organization,
and I really do want to makesure I'm intentional about
cultivating community and howshould I start thinking through
being intentional about buildingcommunity on my team?
SPEAKER_02 (22:56):
First, you have to model the behavior that you want
to see.
Yeah.
Because then community is allabout we're all moving in the
same direction towards the sameNorth Star.
And so if you're a peoplemanager and you're wanting to
build community on your team,ask yourself, what does that
look like?
What would a successfulcommunity look like?
What does it feel like?
What does it taste like?
What does it sound like?
(23:18):
Explore with the census, andonce you've laid that out,
create a vision around that andthen socialize that with your
team.
And again, we said thiscommunity is also a series of
actions.
And so you can create communitythrough one-on-one discussions
on a one-to-one level.
At a team level, create space inyour group meetings for folks to
(23:39):
do an icebreaker.
I would often do with my team,and I had managers do with me
what's bringing you joy lately?
That's building community.
How was your weekend?
And these are simple promptsthat get people just feeling
good.
It takes you away from the work.
And I love that one about joybecause we don't often talk
about joy.
And joy is a key part of life.
Like when I talk about joy, Ijust smile.
(24:01):
I'm like, ooh, I just I'mstarting to feel joyous.
The other piece is get yourteammates, if you can, out of
the work dynamic.
Do something like rock climbing.
We did a high ropes course onetime, and there were team
building elements to that, but Iloved it, y'all.
In a virtual setting, we woulddo a stair peril cars, you know,
(24:23):
where should we begin?
You can have a facilitator comein and do like a Jeopardy or any
type of game if you want to godown that route, but on a
one-to-one level, it's you firsthave to model that behavior.
What does that vision look like?
And then socialize that withyour team and also co-create
that experience.
So bring in your teammates toask them what would get you to
(24:44):
show up every day?
What elements need to be presentfor you to feel safe?
Here, like bring them into that.
If you bring folks on thatjourney, they'll feel that piece
of ownership and help you seethose blind spots and help
co-create that.
But first, model that behaviorand then bring people on that
journey.
unknown (24:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (24:59):
I love that.
I love that.
And I'll say this reallyquickly.
I know when we joinorganizations, we have company
pride and we're so excited, andit's all the things.
And one of the things I wouldencourage our listeners is to
integrat your relationship withwork and your expectations of
what work is and what theworkplace is really responsible
(25:22):
for.
Because I think that we'veplaced too much responsibility
on work to be all things for us.
And I think that sometimes it'sokay for work just to be work.
That's not a bad thing.
If I choose for work not to be acommunity to me, that's okay
because I have other wonderfulcommunities at home.
(25:42):
And when I come to work, it'snot that I'm stoic, but I come
to work to fulfill a mission.
And we're all in pursuit of thatmission, but I know that I'm
getting my cup refilled in otherplaces.
And so I also want to let folksknow that it's okay if you're
not getting all that from youremployer.
And I think that we shouldn'tlook at that employer to be all
of that.
(26:03):
Like they always tell us, don'tput your money all in one spot,
don't put your hope in all inone spot.
Redistribute that.
And so I would encourage folksto interrogate what you're
asking of your employer becauseI think employers now they've
done that with us.
They're not loyal to us.
And like they used to be, butthey expect that from us.
So if you're gonna set the newstandard, I want to follow along
(26:24):
too.
SPEAKER_01 (26:25):
So that is beyond such sage advice because over
the last two or three years,especially, I have seen people
who made work their maincommunity, their main source of
identity for the title, thecompany, the swag, the discount,
whatever it is, the money, andthen they get laid off, or then
(26:46):
they retire in quotes outside ofquotes.
And then all of a sudden it's abad scene.
And I think it's genuinelybecause, to your very good
point, they have not diversifiedtheir portfolio of communities.
They've put all their eggs inthe one basket.
And is that to say you can'tlove your job and you can't love
(27:06):
your blah, blah, blah, blah,blah.
Still, I would never say put allyour money in Enron.
Don't do it.
SPEAKER_02 (27:12):
That's it for Jessica, like mic drop.
Like, is is that is it's we gotthat from our ancestors, those
who were before us who were veryloyal to the workplace.
It's a very American thing of usto be where work is a part of
our identity.
And I would also say the futureof work is challenging that as
(27:32):
well.
And we're seeing that withgenerations coming that's
entering the workplace.
We have five, six generations inthe workplace right now, and
we're noticing that tension andthat shift right now.
I'll say this I was at a townhall last night.
I live in the Bay Area, Oakland,the B in particular, and the
mayor hosted a special townhall, and the police captain
(27:53):
made a general comment aroundhow millennials and Gen Zers are
not loyal to their organizationsanymore.
And that ripped me wrong becauseis loyalty the right thing?
Is that the right way todescribe it?
Or has folks like re-examinedlike what work means to them?
(28:13):
Like work can still have itsrightful and meaningful place.
And if it just doesn't serve meanymore, there's no obligation
for me to continue tilling thatsoil.
Something my brother told meonce.
He said, De Mario, don't tillthe same soil if it's not gonna
harvest anything for you.
And so I would say the samething about an employer on both
hands.
If you're tilling that soil andyou're not getting what you need
(28:34):
out of it, at some point you'regonna you're gonna have to
either plant some new seeds orthink about a new crop that you
want to grow.
Work has a place in our heart,but I don't know that we're
thinking about it in terms of Iam work.
Work is just a mechanism for meto fulfill my purpose, but it's
just a provision for me in thisseason.
SPEAKER_01 (28:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (28:51):
And it's healthy.
Yeah, it is a healthy way tolook at it.
I'm just thinking, why is theexpectation we would be loyal to
a workplace when workplace isn'tloyal to you necessarily?
I think that's an unnecessaryexpectation and also a real
danger to self-worth if we'retying everything to just work.
Because we're more than that.
We're more than the work that wedo.
(29:12):
Looking forward to the change.
Looking forward to thingschanging.
Or winning the lottery so we canhave generational wealth.
Help others.
One thing that we see in theheadlines often is we can't
bring people together if we'renot in person.
But I don't think that's true.
Why?
Because Mario, I watched youmake that happen as part of the
Culture AMP group because youmade me feel part of a community
(29:34):
in an asynchronous virtualenvironment.
So it is possible because I'veseen you work magic in those
spaces.
We see it in the headlines somuch now about RTO and it's
needed to have community andconnection, but we know that's
not true.
What are your thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_02 (29:47):
Yeah, it's not true.
My community can happen in 2Dandor 3D.
I think that what people aredoing is conflating the two.
Anytime that we convincesomething to fit our narrative,
we're gonna do that.
And so organizations are goingto.
Do that.
Now, I love being able to gointo the office, but I truly
believe the way that we wereprior to March 13th, 2020, is
(30:10):
not the way that work is goingto look going forward.
And I think that organizationswant to go back to that.
We won't ever go back to that.
Gen Z don't know what it's liketo work in the office five days
a week because they've neverexperienced it.
Millennials, we will be the lastgeneration, the latest
generation, to experience afive-day work week or being in
the office five days a week.
So organizations, you can buildcommunity without being in the
(30:33):
office, but they want to usethat for their argument, and
it's not true.
You've seen me build communityvirtually.
We're in community right now.
This conversation is communityin practice, but again, it's
about control.
Now, I do love the idea ofbringing people together because
there's just a different feelthat you get when you're in
(30:54):
person.
And I think that trust buildingcan happen faster in person as
well, because you're able topick up on certain things that
might not translate virtually.
So it's not binary as all.
It's it's you can come into theworkplace and jam out with your
community in real time, and youcan do that virtually.
(31:14):
So I think it's all, but I thinkthat we've created this
unnecessary argument when thefuture of work is not going to
be five days in the office.
It's going to be folks choosingwhere they work.
SPEAKER_00 (31:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, we believe in that it'smagical when it happens, but it
can be magic virtually too.
What excites you about thefuture of community building in
the workplace?
SPEAKER_02 (31:35):
I think it's going to be more human.
I truly believe that.
And we talk about that.
But when we have theseconversations, we start to have
a ripple effect because then weempower folks who don't think
about work or the future of workas more human to consider that.
And I think about the archaicway of how we used to work or
jam out, that is just dyingaway.
(31:56):
So what I'm really excitedabout, and in all honesty, is
that work is going to be morehuman.
And what I mean by more human isalso going to be more diverse at
the same time.
So no matter who you are, whatyou are, how you show up, your
ability, your disability, howyou learn, how you move, how you
be, I truly believe all aregoing to be welcome.
(32:18):
And I don't want to sound toooptimistic, but I truly believe
that work is going to be morehuman, where folks are going to.
I think that if we do it well,people are going to want to come
into the office, to be quitehonest with you.
So it won't be us having toforce people.
It's because we have thereceipts to back up and people
want to come.
So I think that's what work isgoing to look like.
SPEAKER_00 (33:12):
It's meant to just get to know you personally and
your thoughts on work, but alsojust some other things.
So are you up for it?
SPEAKER_02 (33:18):
I'm up for it.
SPEAKER_00 (33:20):
All right.
It's 2030.
What's work gonna look like?
SPEAKER_02 (33:26):
Joyful and playful.
SPEAKER_00 (33:28):
Ooh, I love that.
No one has said that yet.
So it's nice to hear.
It's refreshing to hear that.
So love it.
What's one thing about corporateculture you'd like to just see
die already?
SPEAKER_02 (33:43):
Bro culture.
SPEAKER_00 (33:46):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (33:46):
Bro culture.
Yeah, this culture whereorganizations tend to click up
and exclude peopleintentionally.
So we need to get rid of that.
And that's in the spirit of, oh,we're like a family.
And I know we'll get into that,but that bro culture.
And we see that a lot in tech.
We gotta get rid of that.
SPEAKER_00 (34:06):
As women, 100% agree.
So yeah.
What is the greatest opportunitythat most organizations are
missing out on?
SPEAKER_02 (34:17):
Leading with vulnerability.
And I think that we look atvulnerability as something that
we talk about outside of work.
But vulnerability is whatenables us to do our best work.
SPEAKER_00 (34:30):
100%.
I'd like to see people be alittle more vulnerable.
Just can we tap into ourhumanity just a smidge?
Just a little?
SPEAKER_02 (34:37):
Yeah, because I don't stop being human when I
clock in and when I like lifestill life when I'm working.
SPEAKER_00 (34:43):
100%.
100%.
And the world's on fire.
Can we all just make space forit?
What music are you listening toright now?
What's hyping you up?
What do you love?
SPEAKER_02 (34:52):
Listen, y'all, I am in this season where I am loving
on myself.
But so let me just share thisreally quickly.
I know this is a rapid round.
I'm listening to a song by RuthB called Rare.
And she's from Canada, and I gotexposed to her while boarding a
flight, a Delta flight.
And so her genre is more likelove songs.
(35:14):
So I'm in my love season rightnow.
Ooh, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (35:17):
We'll check her out.
We'll check her out.
We're trying to create like aguest playlist because we'd love
to hear what people arelistening to.
Check it out.
Okay.
What's what are you reading?
It could be an audiobook, itcould be, it doesn't have to be
your physically reading.
It could be a magazine article.
What's what's got your attentionthese days?
Oh is it good?
I have it on my desk.
Is it good?
SPEAKER_02 (35:37):
This is what I just got it and I will be reading it
all weekend because I am curiousto know what happened in those
107 days.
SPEAKER_00 (35:47):
Yeah, we need the tea on everything.
My friend's gonna meet her tothis weekend, I think, out in
California.
She's going to a book tour stop.
So I'm like, I need to hear itall.
What did she say?
SPEAKER_02 (35:57):
I was saying this.
You had tickets open in Miami,and I was going to buy a ticket.
And I'm gonna be honest, I saidto Mario, are you really gonna
fly across the country?
Because I'm in California forI'm not.
So the book, I'm gonna read it.
So, Mel, when you hear the T,please share it.
SPEAKER_00 (36:12):
I'll send you an email.
I'll send everybody an email.
This is what was said live.
You should not gonna traveleither.
Okay, who do you really admire?
Could be personal, professional,all of that.
SPEAKER_02 (36:25):
Yeah, I love this question particularly, and
there's so many people I canname, but let me tell you who's
on my heart right now, and aperson who I've never talked
about because I typically keepmy personal life separate.
unknown (36:40):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (36:40):
And it's a cliche, but I have to say it, and if you
really knew me, you would knowwhy this matters most.
I would say my mother.
And the reason why I say mymother is because I never talk
about my mother professionally,and she's a wonderful woman, and
we have two different lives.
But when I think about theperson that I am today, I
attribute the man that I'vebecome to her and God.
(37:03):
I can't say anything else aboutmy mother.
I can say she raised me, and shewas the one, she was my
imprinter.
She showed me what humanitylooked like because I watched
her take in people.
We always had people stayingwith us.
And so for me, I want to give ashout out to her because I don't
know that I've done enough ofthat.
And that's me being vulnerable.
But I do want to give a shoutout to my mother.
SPEAKER_00 (37:26):
We want to shout out your mom too.
She sounds lovely.
What a nice person.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:30):
And that's yeah, for moms, dude.
I'm sorry, but I love whenpeople look at their parents or
the people that brought them up,could be grandparents, parents,
aunts, uncles, whatever.
But they do, they make such ahuge impression on your life.
And it's for better or forworse.
Yeah, hopefully for better.
SPEAKER_02 (37:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:45):
And therapy for the worst.
That's what it's terrible for.
SPEAKER_00 (37:50):
Therapy for everybody.
We think everyone can benefit.
Everybody needs therapy.
Yes.
Yeah.
What's a piece of advice thatyou would want to give everyone,
or you would want everyone toknow?
SPEAKER_02 (38:03):
So I think we're in an era where everyone wants to
be a content creator.
And this is no diss to contentcreators.
But one of the things I will saythat was actually passed down to
me and Mel and Francesca, thiscame, I was reflecting on this
last night.
One of my high school teacherstold me this.
So my first career was actuallyin radio and television.
(38:23):
But one of my high schoolteachers, who was one of our
local news anchors, told me, hesaid to Mario, don't worry about
being famous.
Focus on being effective.
Because if you're effective,people will remember you.
And so that extends beyondcontent creators.
But I will, I just want to sayto my friends who are just who
want to get into it for all thewrong reasons, fame is fleeting.
(38:46):
And so I tell people, like, ifyou are effective, people will
always remember the impact thatyou've had.
So I want to remind people thatgo back to that why and that why
should anger because if you'reeffective, people are just going
to naturally gravitate towardsyou.
So that's what I will offer tothe world right now.
SPEAKER_00 (39:01):
I think that sound advice because it's I have
nieces and nephews that think,oh yeah, I could just blow up
over on TikTok.
But it's a wrong kind of road, Ithink.
So yeah, it's also exhausting.
SPEAKER_01 (39:16):
Yeah, it also I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go work out
Powell's books or something.
unknown (39:22):
Yeah, imagine it.
SPEAKER_00 (39:24):
I just want to sell ice cream.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (39:27):
Life, a meaningful life.
SPEAKER_02 (39:29):
Listen, let me say this.
I went back thinking about thefirst job I ever wanted, which
was to be a bus driver.
I'm like, how can I get to thatin this next life?
SPEAKER_01 (39:40):
No, especially because you're not that gig.
SPEAKER_00 (39:42):
Yes, yes, I agree.
For the neighborhood.
Hear some funny conversations,that's for sure.
Like the gold you'd walk awayfrom uh or walk away with every
day.
I think, I don't know, make yousmile every day.
Thank you so much for joining ustoday, friend.
(40:03):
It's been a pleasure.
SPEAKER_02 (40:05):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (40:08):
This episode was produced, edited in all things
by us, myself, Mel Platt, andFriend Tessa Reneri.
Our music is by Pink Zebra.
And if you loved thisconversation and you want to
contribute your thoughts withus, please do.
You can visit us atyourworkfriends.com.
(40:29):
But you can also join us over onLinkedIn.
We have the LinkedIn communitypage, and we have the TikToks
and Instagram.
So please join us in thesocials.
And if you like this and youbenefited from this episode, and
you think someone else canbenefit from this episode,
please rate and subscribe.
We'd really appreciate it.
That helps keep us going.
(40:50):
Take care, Friday.
Bye friends.
Bye friends.
People join a community for utility, but they
(00:03):
stay for the unity.
SPEAKER_00 (00:18):
Hello.
Yeah.
Hi.
Hi.
How's it going?
Good.
Good.
Good.
That's good.
That's good.
We had the pleasure of meetingwith DiMario Bell today.
DeMario spent over a decadebuilding communities across
higher ed startups, scale-ups,global enterprise.
(00:41):
I had the pleasure of meetingDiMario when I went out on my
own as an entrepreneur leavingcorporate.
I joined the Culture AMPcommunity, which is awesome.
And he was co-leading theCulture First community for
them, which had over 100,000plus global HR leaders in that
group.
When you think about that, whatdo you think about?
SPEAKER_01 (01:03):
That's ginormous.
I know they had live events, butit's also mostly virtual, right?
SPEAKER_00 (01:08):
It's mostly virtual, asynchronous, like a mega Slack
group.
When you think about thatnumber, you think, ah, how much
community can I get out of here?
He really led the way.
He facilitated that.
I felt like I was part ofsomething.
I still do.
I'm going to invent next weekpart of that organization.
So when I think of communitybuilders, he is the expert in
this space.
(01:28):
He's also the founder ofGatherful, where he's helping to
create communities thattransform organizations through
his strategy work and workshopsand speaking.
Super excited to share thisconversation with our listeners.
What do you think?
SPEAKER_01 (01:42):
I think the real flux in life and certainly in
work is having a very strongcommunity or feeling like you're
part of something, feeling thatyou're safe.
And DiMario laid out how do youactually do that?
What are the bits that need tobe in place for that to really
thrive?
SPEAKER_00 (02:02):
Yeah.
It's in the everyday things,day-to-day moments, little
moments throughout the day, andfocusing on the human.
So with that, here's DiMario.
(02:23):
All right.
I'd love to jump into yourjourney.
Something that I read on yourwebsite, and I loved it, was
that you said, communitybuilding is in my DNA.
Tell us more about that.
SPEAKER_02 (02:33):
Yeah, I appreciate the question.
I love all things community.
My grandmother would tell me,God rest her soul, she used to
tell me that she noticed mebeing an introvert early on,
where my siblings, she'll watchthem play with the neighbors and
notice me assess the crowd andthen go and play.
As a child, I often found myselfin the role of organizing my
(02:54):
friends together.
So this is before we wereFacebook and all the social
media apps.
You all know where all yourfriends were hanging out because
you saw all the bikes in thefront yard.
So you knew that's whereeveryone was.
That I was that person.
Typically, all the bikes were atmy house.
The other piece, which is soimportant to my identity, Mel
(03:14):
and Francesca, is I identify asa first-generation college
graduate.
And here in the United States, Ioften say that universities
weren't designed for firstgeneration students in mind.
And so when I went to college,it was almost like taking my
parents to college as well,because they didn't know what
they didn't know.
And they're wonderful people.
They have wonderful lives.
But I noticed for me it was botha blessing and a curse to have
(03:37):
that badge of honor because Iwas also figuring out that road.
And part of that I had to figureout my people because college
really creates this distinctionbetween haves and have-nots.
Now, people will argue me that'snot true, but if you've been to
a four-year institution, youcertainly see that dynamic play
out, whether overtly orsubliminally.
So for me, the reason why I saycommunity is in my DNA because I
(04:00):
love all these people and I lovegathering people together.
I have a natural love forhumanity and I love the power of
people.
Good things happen when thecommunity comes together.
And so as someone who spent mylife building community, I've
seen that to be true.
So I get out of bed for it.
I really do.
SPEAKER_00 (04:20):
Yeah, I love that.
And also as a fellow first genperson, I hear you.
It was hard.
It was hard to do that.
So I love that that's whatfueled you.
And finding that and creatingthat for others is really
meaningful because it takescommunity to thrive for sure.
SPEAKER_02 (04:37):
Well, that's right.
It goes back to that old saying,it takes a village for sure.
What's so beautiful aboutcommunity is that we all want to
feel a part of something biggerthan ourselves.
And we all want to feel lessalone.
SPEAKER_00 (04:50):
Were there any pivotal moments for you when you
realized wow, there's real powerhere in professional settings
with communities?
SPEAKER_02 (04:58):
Another question, and let me just say how I fell
into community professionally,actually.
Yeah.
I was actually working in edtech.
So I left higher education, andI tell people I left higher
education because I just need tomake a little bit more money,
just a little bit.
And I found my way in tech.
I'm building community on thecustomer side.
(05:19):
And I remember just going to myleadership at the time to ask,
how are we connecting customersat scale?
Because customers want to beconnected to each other.
And I found my way becomingtheir head of community over
developing out a new programaround community.
And it was there when I noticedhow do we connect people at
scale?
How do we move from one-to-onerelationships to many
relationships?
My former company, Culture Imp,I led our HR community there.
(05:43):
It was the same thing.
It's great to have these one-offconversations with each other
around best practices or feelingless alone.
But the real opportunity that Isaw was how do we democratize
this and really think about thisfrom the other end and making it
many to many?
So, what are the programs thatwe need to put in place where it
(06:05):
doesn't always have to betop-down in terms of driving
community?
But how do we create theconditions for everyone to feel
like they are empowered tocreate community themselves and
that everyone knows that theyare a part of creating
community, whether they know itor not?
So for me, that's when I startto see there's an opportunity
here for organizations to reallyput structure around this and at
(06:27):
the same time really empoweryour people to help co-create
that experience.
SPEAKER_00 (06:32):
Like in your mind, everyone is a community leader
and should be, and think ofthemselves that way within an
org.
unknown (06:39):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (06:40):
I agree.
Sounds right.
I look are very similar.
And community and culturehappens whether you shape it or
not.
It just depends on are yougetting the right type of
community and the right type ofculture.
And so hopefully you'll be anactive participant in that and
you're shaping it.
SPEAKER_01 (07:00):
One of the things I look at a lot is almost every
organization says, oh, we have agreat culture, or we're an
amazing community.
SPEAKER_02 (07:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (07:08):
And I'm curious as to how you distinguish whether
or not someone has a community,as in they have employees
working for them, yes, versusthey truly have a community.
What is the distinction for you?
Or maybe said differently, howdo you define a real community
in a workplace?
SPEAKER_02 (07:25):
Oh, I love that question.
Thank you.
I always tell people it justcan't be 40 people in a room.
It has to be the right 40people.
At its core, community is aboutshared purpose.
It's about connection, it'sabout getting to this goalpost.
This isn't an original thought,and I'm borrowing this from
someone, but people join acommunity for utility, but they
(07:47):
stay for the unity.
So to get to your question,Francesca, when organizations
say that we have a greatcommunity or we have a great
culture, hey, that's subjective.
Because of course every companyis going to want to say that
about themselves.
What company is going to say, wehave a really sucky culture
here?
SPEAKER_00 (08:06):
Yeah.
You get paid.
That's what they're doing.
We're the most okay organizationthere is.
SPEAKER_02 (08:13):
So how you're able to distinguish if a company
truly they're living that talkin terms of community, I want to
go back to psychological safety.
And psychological safety isimportant in every community.
Can I show up in the totality ofwho I am?
When I think about the personwho I am, now I want to opt into
(08:35):
those parts that I flex or not,but can I show up in the
totality of who I am withoutretribution?
If I push back and you disagree,will there be any negative
consequences to that?
Do my colleagues feel empoweredto choose how and where they
work?
So there are a number offactors, and this is gonna vary
(08:55):
per organization, what communitylooks like and what it feels
like, but everyone has toparticipate it in it.
And I think at the core of it,there has to be that
psychological safety there.
And psychological safety is notmanufactured, it's cultivated
over time.
And you're gonna get what youput into it.
(09:15):
And so when companies say thatwe have psychological safety, my
follow-up question becomes whofeels psychologically safe here?
And the same thing aboutcommunity, when they say we have
a community, who feels like theycan participate in that
community, and then who's notparticipating in that community?
I often find myself trying tofigure out who's not opting in
(09:36):
and how do we get those folksbought in.
And it's typically the peoplewho are like us, black and brown
folks, women, we're justhistorically in the workplaces,
they weren't designed for us.
So we have our microcommunities,but when we think about broader
community, I wish I had like aperfect analogy.
Let me say this (09:54):
when I'm cooking something and I'm using
butter or grease, I'll dipsomething in there first just to
see if it's hot enough, just totest it, to see if it's okay to
start cooking.
I feel the same way aboutcommunity.
Like for me, it's like I want totest it to see if it's real.
And if it's not real, or if itdoesn't feel good to me, I'm
gonna opt out just to protectmyself and treat work as work.
(10:15):
So that was a long answer to saythat you can test it to see if
psychological safety is reallypresent in an organization.
That's how you'll get tocommunity.
SPEAKER_01 (10:25):
First of all, I love the cooking analogy.
I'm Italian, so that reallyworks with me.
Appreciate that.
Here's a follow-up question onthat.
Should organizations designcommunity with the assumption
that everybody's going to joinor that everybody needs to feel
it.
Or there's one big community, ordoes it need to be like
microcommunities?
Is it a big city?
Is it a neighborhood?
Is it a state?
Is it a country?
(10:46):
What are we doing here with thecommunity structure?
SPEAKER_02 (10:52):
It's a complicated one, but let me hit that from a
couple of angles.
Okay, do you often say that whenbuilding community, know who
you're building community for?
And I think the same thing withorganizations.
When you think about I want tobuild this amazing culture and
this amazing community, then whoare you building it for?
If your employees are yourstakeholders, then who is your
(11:12):
employee?
Do you know your employee enoughto know the type of community
that you are building for?
Should community solve for allthings?
I don't think so.
And some people might disagreewith me on that because I'm not
one of those people who say thatthe top is responsible for all
things community and all thingsculture.
We all have this sharedresponsibility.
(11:34):
What leadership is responsiblefor is creating those conditions
for folks to be able to createcommunity.
Let's just say that there's abig company and culturally at a
mega level, the culture isn'tthe greatest, but you can find
that in pockets, which I canfind that within my team.
And so I feel psychologicallysafe.
I feel great about showing upevery day because I know the
(11:57):
people I daily interact with arecreating this layer of
vulnerability, honesty, trust,credibility, and psychological
safety, regardless of what'shappening at the macro level.
I know that the people Iinteract with are making me feel
safe because I can't controlthat what's happening there.
I might influence it at themicro level.
So I say it to say thatorganizations, they should have
(12:19):
a culture that they want to feelinclusive and welcoming to
everyone, but set thoseparameters and frameworks for
managers, for individualcontributors, and even the
directors and VPs to be able tocreate a culture that is
specific to the teams in whichthey're on.
Because the thing aboutcommunity and culture is that
they're fluid, they're notfixed.
(12:40):
And so, depending on who thepeople are, it will evolve, it
will change.
And so, Francesca, I will saythat at a mega level, there
needs to be parameters, but Idon't know that everyone needs
to feel like they're a part ofthis larger community if you can
find it in pockets.
SPEAKER_01 (12:54):
Which makes sense, right?
Going back to your point aroundlike shared purpose, a lot of
times I'm gonna probably findthat smaller, more local towards
the context of the work, thecontext of the industry I'm
working in.
And if Jerry from accounting isa total asshole, then you know,
okay, you know, we havedifferent parameters, right?
Okay, one of the like I have, Ithink we share this to Mario.
(13:14):
Mel shares this as well.
Speak for her because she's mywork wife, is this idea of
workplaces referring to eachother as family, right?
It just uh nails on thechatboard thing, Mabab.
Do you share this opinion andwhy?
SPEAKER_02 (13:27):
It's a great question, and it's a nuanced
question at that.
So I'm not one of those peoplewho refer to my colleagues or
work dynamic in terms of family.
And I know people do it, and Ihear the spirit of that, so I
don't want to antagonize thosewho do it because I hear the
spirit of it.
The simple answer, Francesca, isthat at work we are not a
(13:50):
family.
We might get close to it, might,but we are not a family because
family is inherited andcommunity is chosen.
And so we're born or broughtinto a family, and we don't
typically get to opt in or outof that.
Whereas on a community, on theother hand, that's built through
sheer choice.
(14:11):
The other thing I would say isthat family is permanent,
whereas community is fluid.
Family tends to be a fixed unit.
The relationships might evolve,but the structure doesn't change
too much.
I'm gonna always be my mother'sson.
Like that dynamic will not everchange.
Whereas with community, if we'repart of a community and we don't
(14:33):
vibe with it anymore, we go frombeing community members to now
our relationship might look alittle bit differently because
we're not in that place thatbrought us together.
And then the other thing I wouldsay about that is that family is
about identity, where communityis about connection and purpose.
And so I think whenorganizations refer to
(14:53):
themselves as a family, they'retrying to get to some of those
characteristics that remind usof a family.
And let me say this (14:59):
when we think about community and
culture, family is our firstexample of that.
It's the first tribe.
And so when companies comparethemselves to or say that we're
like a family or we are afamily, they're one of us to
feel like you belong here orthat you'll find your people
here.
(15:19):
I would prefer we're a communitybecause community is strong and
rich in of itself.
Family is messy.
And listen, my family is not allroses.
And there are times when I haveto just put some folks on ice,
but we always come back to eachother lovingly.
At work, we have a team calledemployer relations.
(15:41):
If you do anything wrong atwork, there are conditions
around that.
If you say the wrong thing tothe wrong person and you say,
oh, we're just like family,there's a thing called an ER
report that could possibly befiled, if not worse.
And so I also don't want tomislead people to believe that
if you lean too much into that,that's not without some
(16:04):
consequences.
I see that to say, if I got intoa disagreement with a family
member, we can work that out.
We can come back together andwork depending on that power
dynamic.
That's not always the case.
There are other things thatshape that.
So it's different, it's acommunity.
And I think that we can lean oncommunity being that powerful
descriptor of saying that youbelong here and you can find
(16:26):
your people here without havingto use family to mislabel that.
SPEAKER_01 (16:30):
Beautifully said.
Yeah.
It's so true, too, because youcan't choose your family.
And I think everybody, and Idon't care who you are, everyone
has some nuts people in theirfamily.
I probably am the nuts person inmy family.
You can uh, you know, lay offUncle What's his butt at
Thanksgiving.
You know what I'm saying?
It's but you're not gonna hithim with an ER report.
This is a choice versusinherited.
SPEAKER_00 (16:51):
I love that distinguished.
Thank you.
Yeah.
You might not hit them with theER report.
You might call the cops, though.
Things are gonna have happen.
Um just joking, we could cutthat.
(17:22):
Common mistakes companies make.
What are some frequent misstepsthat you see organizations
making when they're trying tobuild community?
And how can they avoid it?
Please stop doing this tomorrow.
What would you advise?
SPEAKER_02 (17:35):
Can I be honest with you?
Absolutely.
I'm gonna talk about it from myown lived experiences.
I say this in just and in truth.
Like, stop thinking becausefolks share the same racial
ethnicities andor identitiesthat we have this monolithic
experience.
And the same thing happens withgender with women.
(17:55):
We are all coming to the spacewith different lived
experiences.
And so I see organizations oftenmake this assumption and then
they tokenize individuals whoare part of a community to
represent an entire voice.
I would also say when you thinkabout building community, it
doesn't always have to be big.
And so I think when companiesare thinking about how do I
(18:17):
build community, how do I buildculture, it has to be this grand
act.
And I see that community is likea relationship, it's just a
frequency of touch.
And so you give me a Slackchannel, you let me label that,
I'm gonna throw my people inthere.
That's me building community.
So I would say thatorganization, stop thinking that
you have to attach a budget toit, although that would be nice.
(18:38):
But some of the most powerfullevers that you can activate is
simply empowering your people.
That's the second piece.
That first piece was noteverybody shares the same
experience.
The other thing that I would saystop doing, stop treating your
employees like they're children,talk to them like they're
adults.
I've seen this time and timeagain, especially when the
(18:58):
companies are underperforming orthere's a performance evaluation
that's happening, and then therebecomes this, at least from my
own experience, where I feltlike you're talking to me like I
don't understand or comprehend.
And I get it, like when thingsare happening, internal comms
are saying, don't say this,don't say that.
But tell us the truth.
Be real with us, because thedecisions that an organization
(19:20):
chooses to make or don't make,it impacts me.
And I gotta go home and havethat conversation with my family
around what do we need to dobased on what's happening here.
And then the last thing that Iwould say that I would encourage
organizations to stop doing isstop thinking that it's growth
versus community.
I often hear organizations say,once we get growth, then we can
(19:42):
focus on community, then we canfocus on culture.
And I think that calculus is allwrong because if you invest in
community, if you invest andinvest in culture, you're gonna
get productivity.
Because me, if I feel like, oh,I get to jam out with Mel and
Francesca every day, they'recreating the conditions for me
to come to work to be creative,try new things, test, iterate,
(20:04):
and fail, and be able to becoached on how I can do that
differently.
I want to give 110% that nextquarter.
I want to give 150% that nextquarter.
But if you beat me to hell,telling me we got to close this
gap by the end of the quarter,I'm burnt out.
So by Q1, I'm not operating from100%.
I'm operating from 40 or 30%,and I'm emptying myself out,
(20:26):
trying to give more and more.
So organizations understand thatif you invest in the culture and
the community piece, people willinnately give you that 110%.
And your top performers, you'llnotice that it's not about
dangling the carrot, trying tokeep them with a retention
bonus, more pay, and well, allthose things are great.
But if I know I can come to workand be my best self and I have
(20:48):
the resources that I need, thosethings are ancillary to what I
really want, which is to come towork and feel empowered.
SPEAKER_00 (20:54):
I was gonna ask a question about the role of
vulnerability.
What role do you think thatplays in building that trust and
community in the workplace andamong teams?
SPEAKER_02 (21:02):
Yeah, it's a part of the calculus.
You can't have trust withoutvulnerability.
Because I was talking to afriend of mine, and she asked
me, she said, Why is it thatevery time we talk, she said,
you ask me about me, and thenwhen I ask about you, you don't
share as much.
And she said, relationship isabout us both giving and us both
being able to share.
(21:23):
And I wasn't doing that becauseI was being off-putting.
For me, it was just like me justbeing in my own way.
So I say that to say thatvulnerability is important
because it is a key ingredientin trust.
If you show me a little bitabout you, I will show a little
bit about me.
And we established that in thebeginning of the call when I
shared that I'm afirst-generation college
(21:45):
graduate.
Now, I don't mind saying that,but I also know other people
don't like that part of theiridentity to be talked about.
And so what that did was, um,Mel, it created this trust
between you and I because now weknow what that experience is
like.
And experience is what connectsus together.
Um, the same thing.
(22:05):
Like we we were both from thesame town.
Francesca and I, we have a lovefor food.
That's an experience in which wecan build on, and then the
vulnerable piece of that, we cantalk about the good, the bad,
the ugly in that.
So you have to havevulnerability if you're gonna
get to trust.
But you also have to feel likeyou can be vulnerable and not
have it weaponized against youas well.
SPEAKER_00 (22:28):
Yeah, I think that's such a huge key, right?
Because that's a barrier.
That's that psychological safetycoming in to be like, yep, I can
share myself here.
SPEAKER_01 (22:39):
Let's say psychological safety exists or
there is a level of trust, andI'm a leader in an organization,
and I really do want to makesure I'm intentional about
cultivating community and howshould I start thinking through
being intentional about buildingcommunity on my team?
SPEAKER_02 (22:56):
First, you have to model the behavior that you want
to see.
Yeah.
Because then community is allabout we're all moving in the
same direction towards the sameNorth Star.
And so if you're a peoplemanager and you're wanting to
build community on your team,ask yourself, what does that
look like?
What would a successfulcommunity look like?
What does it feel like?
What does it taste like?
What does it sound like?
(23:18):
Explore with the census, andonce you've laid that out,
create a vision around that andthen socialize that with your
team.
And again, we said thiscommunity is also a series of
actions.
And so you can create communitythrough one-on-one discussions
on a one-to-one level.
At a team level, create space inyour group meetings for folks to
(23:39):
do an icebreaker.
I would often do with my team,and I had managers do with me
what's bringing you joy lately?
That's building community.
How was your weekend?
And these are simple promptsthat get people just feeling
good.
It takes you away from the work.
And I love that one about joybecause we don't often talk
about joy.
And joy is a key part of life.
Like when I talk about joy, Ijust smile.
(24:01):
I'm like, ooh, I just I'mstarting to feel joyous.
The other piece is get yourteammates, if you can, out of
the work dynamic.
Do something like rock climbing.
We did a high ropes course onetime, and there were team
building elements to that, but Iloved it, y'all.
In a virtual setting, we woulddo a stair peril cars, you know,
(24:23):
where should we begin?
You can have a facilitator comein and do like a Jeopardy or any
type of game if you want to godown that route, but on a
one-to-one level, it's you firsthave to model that behavior.
What does that vision look like?
And then socialize that withyour team and also co-create
that experience.
So bring in your teammates toask them what would get you to
(24:44):
show up every day?
What elements need to be presentfor you to feel safe?
Here, like bring them into that.
If you bring folks on thatjourney, they'll feel that piece
of ownership and help you seethose blind spots and help
co-create that.
But first, model that behaviorand then bring people on that
journey.
unknown (24:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (24:59):
I love that.
I love that.
And I'll say this reallyquickly.
I know when we joinorganizations, we have company
pride and we're so excited, andit's all the things.
And one of the things I wouldencourage our listeners is to
integrat your relationship withwork and your expectations of
what work is and what theworkplace is really responsible
(25:22):
for.
Because I think that we'veplaced too much responsibility
on work to be all things for us.
And I think that sometimes it'sokay for work just to be work.
That's not a bad thing.
If I choose for work not to be acommunity to me, that's okay
because I have other wonderfulcommunities at home.
(25:42):
And when I come to work, it'snot that I'm stoic, but I come
to work to fulfill a mission.
And we're all in pursuit of thatmission, but I know that I'm
getting my cup refilled in otherplaces.
And so I also want to let folksknow that it's okay if you're
not getting all that from youremployer.
And I think that we shouldn'tlook at that employer to be all
of that.
(26:03):
Like they always tell us, don'tput your money all in one spot,
don't put your hope in all inone spot.
Redistribute that.
And so I would encourage folksto interrogate what you're
asking of your employer becauseI think employers now they've
done that with us.
They're not loyal to us.
And like they used to be, butthey expect that from us.
So if you're gonna set the newstandard, I want to follow along
(26:24):
too.
SPEAKER_01 (26:25):
So that is beyond such sage advice because over
the last two or three years,especially, I have seen people
who made work their maincommunity, their main source of
identity for the title, thecompany, the swag, the discount,
whatever it is, the money, andthen they get laid off, or then
(26:46):
they retire in quotes outside ofquotes.
And then all of a sudden it's abad scene.
And I think it's genuinelybecause, to your very good
point, they have not diversifiedtheir portfolio of communities.
They've put all their eggs inthe one basket.
And is that to say you can'tlove your job and you can't love
(27:06):
your blah, blah, blah, blah,blah.
Still, I would never say put allyour money in Enron.
Don't do it.
SPEAKER_02 (27:12):
That's it for Jessica, like mic drop.
Like, is is that is it's we gotthat from our ancestors, those
who were before us who were veryloyal to the workplace.
It's a very American thing of usto be where work is a part of
our identity.
And I would also say the futureof work is challenging that as
(27:32):
well.
And we're seeing that withgenerations coming that's
entering the workplace.
We have five, six generations inthe workplace right now, and
we're noticing that tension andthat shift right now.
I'll say this I was at a townhall last night.
I live in the Bay Area, Oakland,the B in particular, and the
mayor hosted a special townhall, and the police captain
(27:53):
made a general comment aroundhow millennials and Gen Zers are
not loyal to their organizationsanymore.
And that ripped me wrong becauseis loyalty the right thing?
Is that the right way todescribe it?
Or has folks like re-examinedlike what work means to them?
(28:13):
Like work can still have itsrightful and meaningful place.
And if it just doesn't serve meanymore, there's no obligation
for me to continue tilling thatsoil.
Something my brother told meonce.
He said, De Mario, don't tillthe same soil if it's not gonna
harvest anything for you.
And so I would say the samething about an employer on both
hands.
If you're tilling that soil andyou're not getting what you need
(28:34):
out of it, at some point you'regonna you're gonna have to
either plant some new seeds orthink about a new crop that you
want to grow.
Work has a place in our heart,but I don't know that we're
thinking about it in terms of Iam work.
Work is just a mechanism for meto fulfill my purpose, but it's
just a provision for me in thisseason.
SPEAKER_01 (28:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (28:51):
And it's healthy.
Yeah, it is a healthy way tolook at it.
I'm just thinking, why is theexpectation we would be loyal to
a workplace when workplace isn'tloyal to you necessarily?
I think that's an unnecessaryexpectation and also a real
danger to self-worth if we'retying everything to just work.
Because we're more than that.
We're more than the work that wedo.
(29:12):
Looking forward to the change.
Looking forward to thingschanging.
Or winning the lottery so we canhave generational wealth.
Help others.
One thing that we see in theheadlines often is we can't
bring people together if we'renot in person.
But I don't think that's true.
Why?
Because Mario, I watched youmake that happen as part of the
Culture AMP group because youmade me feel part of a community
(29:34):
in an asynchronous virtualenvironment.
So it is possible because I'veseen you work magic in those
spaces.
We see it in the headlines somuch now about RTO and it's
needed to have community andconnection, but we know that's
not true.
What are your thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_02 (29:47):
Yeah, it's not true.
My community can happen in 2Dandor 3D.
I think that what people aredoing is conflating the two.
Anytime that we convincesomething to fit our narrative,
we're gonna do that.
And so organizations are goingto.
Do that.
Now, I love being able to gointo the office, but I truly
believe the way that we wereprior to March 13th, 2020, is
(30:10):
not the way that work is goingto look going forward.
And I think that organizationswant to go back to that.
We won't ever go back to that.
Gen Z don't know what it's liketo work in the office five days
a week because they've neverexperienced it.
Millennials, we will be the lastgeneration, the latest
generation, to experience afive-day work week or being in
the office five days a week.
So organizations, you can buildcommunity without being in the
(30:33):
office, but they want to usethat for their argument, and
it's not true.
You've seen me build communityvirtually.
We're in community right now.
This conversation is communityin practice, but again, it's
about control.
Now, I do love the idea ofbringing people together because
there's just a different feelthat you get when you're in
(30:54):
person.
And I think that trust buildingcan happen faster in person as
well, because you're able topick up on certain things that
might not translate virtually.
So it's not binary as all.
It's it's you can come into theworkplace and jam out with your
community in real time, and youcan do that virtually.
(31:14):
So I think it's all, but I thinkthat we've created this
unnecessary argument when thefuture of work is not going to
be five days in the office.
It's going to be folks choosingwhere they work.
SPEAKER_00 (31:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, we believe in that it'smagical when it happens, but it
can be magic virtually too.
What excites you about thefuture of community building in
the workplace?
SPEAKER_02 (31:35):
I think it's going to be more human.
I truly believe that.
And we talk about that.
But when we have theseconversations, we start to have
a ripple effect because then weempower folks who don't think
about work or the future of workas more human to consider that.
And I think about the archaicway of how we used to work or
jam out, that is just dyingaway.
(31:56):
So what I'm really excitedabout, and in all honesty, is
that work is going to be morehuman.
And what I mean by more human isalso going to be more diverse at
the same time.
So no matter who you are, whatyou are, how you show up, your
ability, your disability, howyou learn, how you move, how you
be, I truly believe all aregoing to be welcome.
(32:18):
And I don't want to sound toooptimistic, but I truly believe
that work is going to be morehuman, where folks are going to.
I think that if we do it well,people are going to want to come
into the office, to be quitehonest with you.
So it won't be us having toforce people.
It's because we have thereceipts to back up and people
want to come.
So I think that's what work isgoing to look like.
SPEAKER_00 (33:12):
It's meant to just get to know you personally and
your thoughts on work, but alsojust some other things.
So are you up for it?
SPEAKER_02 (33:18):
I'm up for it.
SPEAKER_00 (33:20):
All right.
It's 2030.
What's work gonna look like?
SPEAKER_02 (33:26):
Joyful and playful.
SPEAKER_00 (33:28):
Ooh, I love that.
No one has said that yet.
So it's nice to hear.
It's refreshing to hear that.
So love it.
What's one thing about corporateculture you'd like to just see
die already?
SPEAKER_02 (33:43):
Bro culture.
SPEAKER_00 (33:46):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (33:46):
Bro culture.
Yeah, this culture whereorganizations tend to click up
and exclude peopleintentionally.
So we need to get rid of that.
And that's in the spirit of, oh,we're like a family.
And I know we'll get into that,but that bro culture.
And we see that a lot in tech.
We gotta get rid of that.
SPEAKER_00 (34:06):
As women, 100% agree.
So yeah.
What is the greatest opportunitythat most organizations are
missing out on?
SPEAKER_02 (34:17):
Leading with vulnerability.
And I think that we look atvulnerability as something that
we talk about outside of work.
But vulnerability is whatenables us to do our best work.
SPEAKER_00 (34:30):
100%.
I'd like to see people be alittle more vulnerable.
Just can we tap into ourhumanity just a smidge?
Just a little?
SPEAKER_02 (34:37):
Yeah, because I don't stop being human when I
clock in and when I like lifestill life when I'm working.
SPEAKER_00 (34:43):
100%.
100%.
And the world's on fire.
Can we all just make space forit?
What music are you listening toright now?
What's hyping you up?
What do you love?
SPEAKER_02 (34:52):
Listen, y'all, I am in this season where I am loving
on myself.
But so let me just share thisreally quickly.
I know this is a rapid round.
I'm listening to a song by RuthB called Rare.
And she's from Canada, and I gotexposed to her while boarding a
flight, a Delta flight.
And so her genre is more likelove songs.
(35:14):
So I'm in my love season rightnow.
Ooh, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (35:17):
We'll check her out.
We'll check her out.
We're trying to create like aguest playlist because we'd love
to hear what people arelistening to.
Check it out.
Okay.
What's what are you reading?
It could be an audiobook, itcould be, it doesn't have to be
your physically reading.
It could be a magazine article.
What's what's got your attentionthese days?
Oh is it good?
I have it on my desk.
Is it good?
SPEAKER_02 (35:37):
This is what I just got it and I will be reading it
all weekend because I am curiousto know what happened in those
107 days.
SPEAKER_00 (35:47):
Yeah, we need the tea on everything.
My friend's gonna meet her tothis weekend, I think, out in
California.
She's going to a book tour stop.
So I'm like, I need to hear itall.
What did she say?
SPEAKER_02 (35:57):
I was saying this.
You had tickets open in Miami,and I was going to buy a ticket.
And I'm gonna be honest, I saidto Mario, are you really gonna
fly across the country?
Because I'm in California forI'm not.
So the book, I'm gonna read it.
So, Mel, when you hear the T,please share it.
SPEAKER_00 (36:12):
I'll send you an email.
I'll send everybody an email.
This is what was said live.
You should not gonna traveleither.
Okay, who do you really admire?
Could be personal, professional,all of that.
SPEAKER_02 (36:25):
Yeah, I love this question particularly, and
there's so many people I canname, but let me tell you who's
on my heart right now, and aperson who I've never talked
about because I typically keepmy personal life separate.
unknown (36:40):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (36:40):
And it's a cliche, but I have to say it, and if you
really knew me, you would knowwhy this matters most.
I would say my mother.
And the reason why I say mymother is because I never talk
about my mother professionally,and she's a wonderful woman, and
we have two different lives.
But when I think about theperson that I am today, I
attribute the man that I'vebecome to her and God.
(37:03):
I can't say anything else aboutmy mother.
I can say she raised me, and shewas the one, she was my
imprinter.
She showed me what humanitylooked like because I watched
her take in people.
We always had people stayingwith us.
And so for me, I want to give ashout out to her because I don't
know that I've done enough ofthat.
And that's me being vulnerable.
But I do want to give a shoutout to my mother.
SPEAKER_00 (37:26):
We want to shout out your mom too.
She sounds lovely.
What a nice person.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:30):
And that's yeah, for moms, dude.
I'm sorry, but I love whenpeople look at their parents or
the people that brought them up,could be grandparents, parents,
aunts, uncles, whatever.
But they do, they make such ahuge impression on your life.
And it's for better or forworse.
Yeah, hopefully for better.
SPEAKER_02 (37:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:45):
And therapy for the worst.
That's what it's terrible for.
SPEAKER_00 (37:50):
Therapy for everybody.
We think everyone can benefit.
Everybody needs therapy.
Yes.
Yeah.
What's a piece of advice thatyou would want to give everyone,
or you would want everyone toknow?
SPEAKER_02 (38:03):
So I think we're in an era where everyone wants to
be a content creator.
And this is no diss to contentcreators.
But one of the things I will saythat was actually passed down to
me and Mel and Francesca, thiscame, I was reflecting on this
last night.
One of my high school teacherstold me this.
So my first career was actuallyin radio and television.
(38:23):
But one of my high schoolteachers, who was one of our
local news anchors, told me, hesaid to Mario, don't worry about
being famous.
Focus on being effective.
Because if you're effective,people will remember you.
And so that extends beyondcontent creators.
But I will, I just want to sayto my friends who are just who
want to get into it for all thewrong reasons, fame is fleeting.
(38:46):
And so I tell people, like, ifyou are effective, people will
always remember the impact thatyou've had.
So I want to remind people thatgo back to that why and that why
should anger because if you'reeffective, people are just going
to naturally gravitate towardsyou.
So that's what I will offer tothe world right now.
SPEAKER_00 (39:01):
I think that sound advice because it's I have
nieces and nephews that think,oh yeah, I could just blow up
over on TikTok.
But it's a wrong kind of road, Ithink.
So yeah, it's also exhausting.
SPEAKER_01 (39:16):
Yeah, it also I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go work out
Powell's books or something.
unknown (39:22):
Yeah, imagine it.
SPEAKER_00 (39:24):
I just want to sell ice cream.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (39:27):
Life, a meaningful life.
SPEAKER_02 (39:29):
Listen, let me say this.
I went back thinking about thefirst job I ever wanted, which
was to be a bus driver.
I'm like, how can I get to thatin this next life?
SPEAKER_01 (39:40):
No, especially because you're not that gig.
SPEAKER_00 (39:42):
Yes, yes, I agree.
For the neighborhood.
Hear some funny conversations,that's for sure.
Like the gold you'd walk awayfrom uh or walk away with every
day.
I think, I don't know, make yousmile every day.
Thank you so much for joining ustoday, friend.
(40:03):
It's been a pleasure.
SPEAKER_02 (40:05):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (40:08):
This episode was produced, edited in all things
by us, myself, Mel Platt, andFriend Tessa Reneri.
Our music is by Pink Zebra.
And if you loved thisconversation and you want to
contribute your thoughts withus, please do.
You can visit us atyourworkfriends.com.
(40:29):
But you can also join us over onLinkedIn.
We have the LinkedIn communitypage, and we have the TikToks
and Instagram.
So please join us in thesocials.
And if you like this and youbenefited from this episode, and
you think someone else canbenefit from this episode,
please rate and subscribe.
We'd really appreciate it.
That helps keep us going.
(40:50):
Take care, Friday.
Bye friends.
Bye friends.
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