July 24, 2025 • 48 mins
Is your brain still working even when you're not? You're not alone—and it's probably costing you more than you think.
In this episode of Your Work Friends, we sit down with Dr. Malissa Clark—organizational psychologist and author of Never Not Working—to unpack how hustle culture, job insecurity, and digital overload are making it harder than ever to truly disconnect.
We talk through the 4 types of workaholism, the science behind why your body never gets to rest, and what recovery can actually look like (especially if mindfulness makes you want to scream). Whether you’re leading a team or just trying to survive the triple-peak workday, this is your permission slip to stop running on fumes.
🔍 What we cover:
- How to know if you’re a workaholic (even if you love your job)
- Why overwork often looks like ambition
- The physiological toll of being “always on”
- Why managers—not Slack—are the real culture shapers
- Recovery strategies that go beyond deep breathing
🎧 Featuring: Dr. Malissa Clark, Director of the Healthy Work Lab and Associate Professor at the University of Georgia
Connect with Malissa here
Disclaimer: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered professional advice. We are not responsible for any losses, damages, or liabilities that may arise from the use of this podcast. The views expressed in this podcast may not be those of the host or the management.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Don't focus on how you feel when you're working.
How do you feel when you're notworking?
Hey, welcome to your work,friends, where we are breaking
(00:23):
down the now and next of work.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
So you stay ahead.
I'm Mel Plett and I amFrancesca Ranieri.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
And we had the pleasure of recently
interviewing Melissa Clark.
She is the associate professorof industrial organization
psychology at the University ofGeorgia and the director of the
Healthy Work Lab and the authorof Never Not Working why the
Always-On Culture is Bad forBusiness and how to Fix it.
(00:52):
This conversation was amazing.
I just love everythingMelissa's about, everything that
she's doing and I like thatshe's calling this out that
always being on is actuallyreally bad for your work.
If you're wondering if you'realways on, you are.
I was in denial and Melissa hasa really good quiz in the front
of her book that I took and itwas definitely you're a
(01:12):
workaholic, which isn't good foryou, right?
And you can't do your best workif you're never stepping away.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
It's also very eye-opening.
You don't realize that justbecause you're not in front of a
screen or not in front of yourteam doesn't mean you're not
working.
For someone like me, I willwake up in the middle of the
night at 2 am and continue tothink about work.
I'm thinking about it as I'mcooking dinner, as I'm in a
meeting with somebody else,thinking about I'm double
working.
If you are spending your mentalenergy, you are working.
(01:43):
Energy, you are working.
And the quiz, our conversation,the book, all relate to me that
I'm always freaking on and thatain't good.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Yeah, and it can really inhibit innovation and I
now am wondering how many goodideas I'm losing out on by not
giving myself the space torefresh.
We talk about ways that you canbuild activities into your day
that help you decompress, thathelp you move away from this
kind of state so you can be atyour best when you need to be,
(02:13):
and I think it's really helpfulfor folks to get healthier.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
About work yeah, it's a conversation I think we all
need to have and have withourselves Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
With that, here's Melissa Clark.
Okay, I'm going to jump rightinto workaholism, because your
book Never Not Working one itstruck a chord with me.
I can totally relate to neverdisconnecting.
(02:44):
That wasn't always the case, bythe way, but slowly, over time,
we see that we're more and moreconnected.
I'm just going to read a fewstats.
That Microsoft Work TrendsIndex annual report came out
recently and they're calling itthe rise of the infinite workday
.
So that report came out and Iwas reading that at the same
time as reading your book andI'm like, oh, this is perfect
(03:05):
timing.
And they found that most peoplestart their day at six, ended
at 730.
And now a peak performancewindow of working time is
considered 430 to 730.
And all I could think wasgrowing up.
Dinner was like at 6, 630.
And if your friends called,your parents were like do not
answer that phone, it's pastseven.
So parents were like do notanswer that phone, it's past
seven.
So it's like where's theboundary with work?
(03:28):
There's no boundary anymore,right?
And the whole world interrupted.
So I'm curious.
Workaholism goes beyond justhours, because I'm noting some
hours here, but it's sinkinginto work around the clock, this
constant mental loop, right?
So how can you recognize, asindividuals, when we've moved
into workaholism ourselves?
(03:49):
How do we?
What are the warning signs?
Automatically, people just goto work hours as the proxy and
the gauge.
But it's not that, like yousaid, it's much messier.
A good way to think about it isto break down the four different
dimensions of workaholism andthat way, once you know them,
you can keep an eye out for ifyou're feeling these things or
(04:11):
experiencing these things.
So the first dimension is themotivational dimension.
This is feeling like you oughtto be working, this kind of
inner pressure.
I describe it as a pit in yourstomach.
It's this uneasy feeling whenyou're not working.
Oh, I really should be checkingmy email or doing this report
(04:32):
or work on this presentation Ihave next week.
That's different than working,because you're pulled to it,
because you love it, and so itcan get really messy too.
You can feel both at the sametime, and that's normal too.
But if you find yourselffeeling like you ought to be
working, that's one component.
The second component isthinking about work all the time
(04:55):
.
So that's a cognitive componentand this is your inability to
mentally disconnect.
So if you're not physicallyworking, you're working in your
head a lot of the times.
So think about what does yourmind drift to when you're not at
work, when you're hanging outwith your friends or your family
?
Are you actually in the momentor do you find yourself
(05:20):
constantly drifting back to work?
Or you have a hard time justsitting and being engaged in a
conversation without thatconstant nagging thought about
this, that and the other thingrelated to work.
Then there's the negativeemotions.
So, with that pit in yourstomach, is feeling anxious or
(05:41):
unsettled or just reallyuncomfortable is a way to think
about it when you're not working.
The reason this drives peopleto work is that they work to
settle that uncomfortablefeeling.
And then there is the workhours component.
But it's hard to track.
We don't clock in and clock outa lot of us for our jobs, but
(06:05):
it's hard to track.
We don't clock in and clock outa lot of us for our jobs.
And so are we really trackinghow much we're working if we're
also checking our emailthroughout the day, the evening,
the weekend, getting on ourlaptop to do a few things in the
evening or first thing when wewake up with our coffee, that
counts as work if we're working,and all that stuff adds up.
Coffee, that counts as work ifwe're working and all that stuff
(06:28):
adds up Things like workingeven when you're on vacation,
that kind of thing.
It's a lot of different ways ofbeing attached to your work in
this maladaptive way is how Ithink about it.
So I would say, just payattention to your gut, feelings,
your emotions, your thoughts,and then these sneaking in work
here and there.
Those are some telltale signsthat you might actually have
(06:52):
some workaholic tendencies.
I talked to many people thatdidn't really realize that was
workaholism and that was reallyeye-opening for them to just pay
more attention to these littlethings here and there, totally
guilty of the thinking.
One, by the way, when I readabout that I was like, oh, I
(07:12):
can't even go on a walksometimes without just in
ruminating on yeah, checklistsor things I'm thinking about and
I'm like, can I shut my brainoff?
I can't.
My husband always jokes younever shut your brain off.
I don't know if that's one ofthe most common ones, but it's
just constant like a loop.
So yeah, it's pretty common andfor me, I definitely have some
workaholic tendencies.
(07:33):
I have to actively distractmyself, and so, in order to shut
it off, I can't just engage inmindfulness relaxation exercise.
I have to actively focus onsomething else, distract myself.
So I listen to podcasts a lotwhen I'm walking or working out
or driving, so that my minddoesn't automatically drift to
(07:56):
work and no, they're notwork-related podcasts.
I think that's key too.
Yeah, something notwork-related, yeah.
So I have to force myself notto think about work.
It's tough.
We hear a lot about likeengagement and there's a lot of
blurriness between likeengagement, productivity and
workaholism.
What's the real differencebetween those?
That's where it gets reallytricky.
(08:16):
There's not like a concretedifference between the two,
because you can be an engagedworkaholic I would put myself in
that category.
I love my work and I am drawnto it because I enjoy so many
different parts about it, but Ialso struggle to disconnect.
We call it the push and pull ofwork, and so it's not a clear.
(08:40):
You are either a workaholic oryou're an engaged worker.
You can absolutely be both, andwhat's important to think about
is that work engagement isshown to have a ton of really
positive outcomes, right forperformance, for well you're a
workaholic.
If you're engaged, it's finebecause you know that's going to
(09:09):
help your productivity and yourwell-being.
But they actually find there'smore evidence for the opposite,
that the positive effects ofwork engagement on our
productivity and our health andwell-being are essentially
almost washed away by thenegative impacts of workaholism
on our health and well-being,are essentially almost washed
away by the negative impacts ofworkaholism on our health and
well-being and productivity.
(09:29):
So it's something worth keepingin mind.
It's not an either or.
And yes, work engagement isgreat, but what I tend to tell
people to focus on is don'tfocus on how you feel when
you're working.
How do you feel when you're notworking?
Yeah, I like that flip, becausethen you're not taking work out
(09:49):
of the equation altogether.
What am I disassociating?
Am I not taking action outsideof this sort of thing?
Because I know it's easy to getinto kind of those freeze modes
, right, when you feeloverwhelmed by the work.
What do you say to the folkswho are like I can work seven
days a week.
It energizes me.
Can we truly stay healthy thisway?
(10:09):
Or are we just feeding intothis kind of badge of honor
hustle culture that we've builtup in the US.
My personal opinion I thinkpeople are fooling themselves.
When I wrote the book, Iinterviewed dozens of people
from Workaholics Anonymous.
That's a real organization thatpeople join to try to, you know
(10:30):
, combat their workaholictendencies.
It's structured actually afterAlcoholics Anonymous, with a
12-step program.
Every single person had somesort of negative health or
relationship impact, many things, usually across their lives,
like I had four heart attacks.
I heard that multiple peoplehaving multiple heart attacks.
(10:52):
So I want to give you an exampleof someone I spoke with.
He was almost in his 80s.
He was still working full time.
He had his own company.
His wife almost divorced himmultiple times, health problems
(11:19):
galore, and I was like, when areyou going to stop working?
And he said I'm never going tostop this.
And I've interviewed a lot ofpeople workaholics, spouses of
workaholics and really a lot ofpeople do recognize it's bad.
But the people that don't, evenif they don't recognize it,
their body is telling themsomething different.
(11:39):
And the people around themtheir family, their partners,
their kids are also seeingsomething different.
We've seen huge layoffs overthe past year.
(11:59):
I think one of the statisticswe saw recently is 3.5% of
white-collar jobs have been cutin this past year.
The one in five of the S&P 500is now smaller, and so teams
that are left behind are pickingup the slack.
How do you see this shaping thefuture of workaholism as well?
Because there's like theindividual side where we have
(12:22):
control is like the individualside where we have control.
But when you're in theseenvironments that have been
impacted from the recent shifts,how does that impact the future
of workaholism?
Wonderful questions.
Part of what drives workaholismis from within, like we have
our own different personalitytraits and some of us just
naturally are more workaholicthan others.
(12:45):
Same thing as if we talk abouttype A personality or
extroversion or something.
But there is also researchshowing that the environment can
shape even things that wethought were stable, like our
personality, which is reallyfascinating with workaholism.
We're finding that things likethe society that we grew up in,
the organizational culture, theteam culture your supervisor
(13:07):
demands all those things canshape future workaholic
tendencies.
And in a study that I'm workingon right now, we're actually
looking at job insecurity andhow that affects future levels
of workaholism, and we'refinding evidence for that, and I
(13:34):
think the reason why is thatjob insecurity is a huge job
stressor.
It causes a lot of anxiety.
This uncertainty that we'refeeling is one of those features
of workaholism, right, so we'refeeling really unsure about the
stability of our job and evenjust the existence of our career
in the future with AI.
There's a lot of uncertaintiesand I think that uncertainty can
(13:57):
fuel some of the alreadyexisting tendencies that we
might have, and even people thatdon't have workaholic
tendencies.
I think this uncertainenvironment most certainly might
escalate that as well, if notworkaholism, just overworked
behaviors, right, becauseeveryone is.
(14:17):
I hear this from so many peopleand honestly, I feel it too.
I think a lot.
You can make the case foralmost every single job being
changed in very dramatic andtransformational ways in the
future with AI, and it's justvery uncertain.
Yeah, so it has hugeimplications for overwork in
(14:40):
addition to workaholism.
Yeah, I have friends who feelthat maybe they're going through
merger and acquisition or theAI.
They're plucking outdepartments and replacing it
with AI and friends who.
I never thought were workaholics.
I'm seeing their home, theirpersonality change, so what
you're saying really resonateswith me, because like they're
(15:01):
working till six, seven, eightpm, but that's not their
personality.
It never has been until theselike other actors, which is
interesting, so interesting tosee that play out.
Yeah, I know.
So I do worry about that in thefuture yeah there is this, and
you talk about it.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
In the book, too, there is this idea of being
always on, because I even findthat the definition of work is
expanding so much, meaning itwas just about the tasks and the
job you had to do and you hadmore job security.
Now to your very good point.
It's about the tasks you needto do, the political minutiae
(15:40):
you need to map through theinsecurity that you're always
trying to navigate as well.
Maybe I'm going to have my job,maybe I won't.
I also find now you need tobuild your brand and have a
presence online.
I don't understand how you comeout of that, not having your
personality just be, likechanged.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Yeah, excellent point .
I don't think enough people aretalking about this.
Just how, for some careers mineis one, yours is one you have
to have that public presence andthat is a full-time job, like
punching your LinkedIn and yourInstagram I'm not even remotely
good at that.
I feel that intense pressureand I know I need to be doing
(16:18):
more.
And it's like when do you havetime to do that on top of your
other job is in the evening.
Do that on top of your otherjob is in the evening.
It just makes it so you'reconstantly thinking about that,
not just your work, what you'repaid for in your job description
, but the other aspects of work.
Yeah, such an excellent point.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
One of the things about Always On you talk about
is this idea of like triple peakand Always On.
Talk to us about.
What does that look like forthe average person right now?
Is it what we just talked about?
Is it what we just talked?
Speaker 1 (16:46):
about.
Is it more so?
This is really fascinating,talking about some interesting
stuff that Microsoft has lookedinto, and what's really cool
about this is that they're usingtheir technology to track, like
keystroke data and objectivedata, so it's not just
self-report of when we'reworking, they're actually
tracking when we're working byuse of, like all of their
(17:08):
software programs.
So during COVID, they conducteda study of when people were
working, when a lot of peoplewere working from home and a lot
of people also had their kidshome with them, where this is
back when schools had moved toremote.
So if you had young kids, thenthey were home with you and you
(17:29):
were trying to do both duringthe day.
And so what happened duringCOVID and this was picked up in
Microsoft's study was that wehave a natural peak in
productivity at the beginning ofthe workday towards the end,
before we're done.
That's normal, but then theyfound a triple peak, which is
this additional burst ofproductivity in those evening
(17:50):
hours I forget the exact it waslike between 7 and 9 pm.
It was what they found duringCOVID and I'm thinking, ok, I
don't have young kids now, but Iremember when they were young
and that is exactly when I wouldput them to bed and then you
just get back to work.
So that's what I and I thinkothers have said the same thing.
So what was happening then isparents that had kids home with
(18:10):
them a lot of them had thisburst of productivity when they
finally could put them down forbed.
That's fine in that context,right, but what happened is we
never really transitioned out ofthat, and this most recent
study is still showing that wenow have this additional peak of
(18:31):
productivity in the evening,where we didn't really made that
conscious effort to stop thathabit and go back to respecting
work hours and respectingboundaries, and we've all just
(18:53):
become accustomed to beingavailable and, I think, having
those clear discussions of whatare our work hours, when is it
reasonable to ping someone onSlack or whatever your app
messaging is, and when can thiswait until the next day during
(19:14):
work?
When can you send an email andschedule?
Most recent the infiniteworkday studies are.
What they're telling me is thatwe continue to really blur that
boundary between work and homeand we really are to the point
(19:36):
now where we really don't havethem, and it's going to take a
conscious effort to reestablishthat.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Yeah, I think you're spot on there.
It's so interesting to mebecause I know a lot of people
like to blame Slack and the techis the villain and everything
else, and I appreciate that weare more connected, we have more
accessibility to broadband andZoom Teams, slack, whatever and
I think it comes down to and I'dlove for you to say, francesca,
(20:05):
you're full of shit, or yes, Iagree, but I do think it really
comes down to not the CEO level,like the Andy Jassy level,
saying AI is going to take over,get your shit together and get
out of here, but I think itcomes down to this team level.
Leadership.
Being very aware of this is howhumans are interacting with
this tech and setting thoseboundaries.
(20:27):
Are you finding that's whatit's taking or is it really?
Speaker 1 (20:31):
No, you're spot on, you really are.
The manager has the most directrelationship to the employees,
right?
That team and the team dynamicsreally shape how connected you
are, whether you want to be ornot.
There's what's called the cycleof responsiveness that this
(20:51):
communication technology causes,and it's basically it starts
with an always-on expectationwhere you know you're expected
to respond right away whenpeople message you.
So that's again, that's theculture of your team, right?
What does your boss think aboutwhen they send a message?
Do they expect a reply rightaway?
(21:13):
If that's the case, then peopleknow that, and so then they tend
to be always checking to makesure they didn't miss something.
And because they're alwayschecking, they're not gonna miss
something and they're going toimmediately reply.
And everyone else on the team,they don't want to be left
behind.
They don't want decisions to bemade while they're at a soccer
(21:34):
game watching their kid play.
They want to be in the loop.
So everyone has this pressure toalways be on, and because
everyone's going to respondright away, you respond right
away, and it just it likeamplifies this always on cycle
and it just reinforces thatculture and then so, yeah, it
(21:57):
really the only way to breakthat is to have a clear break, a
boundary setting meeting, andit's not just one meeting, it's
going to have to be multiplemeetings, because the way this
breaks is either the managerdoesn't set firm boundaries or
the manager just allows it tohappen again and the first
(22:20):
person to break that boundary.
If that's not addressed, thenit just goes right back to being
always on.
So there was a book I read whenI was researching for my book.
It was on school cultureactually, and they had a quote
that stood out to me it's theculture of the school.
So in this case theorganization is is based on the
(22:41):
worst behavior that's tolerated,and I just loved that because
it makes so much sense.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
It makes sense.
I mean just this subtle.
If your boss is checking theiremail on vacation or if they're
responding at 2 am in themorning, it makes sense even
with toxic behaviors, and peopleare doing stuff that causes
cancer on the team, it makestotal sense.
Do you find that there are somecultures that don't have this
(23:09):
work above everything thinggoing on?
Or are we just all needingtherapy in the US?
Speaker 1 (23:16):
I think there are definitely some parts that are
unique to the US and othercountries too that have real
problems with workaholism.
China, japan, south Korea,those all come to mind too.
But the US is bad too.
But there are countries thatare doing it different, and you
(23:37):
look at a lot of the Europeancountries that have everyone
takes holiday for multiple weeks, maybe even a month in the
summer, and everything justshuts down at certain points
during the afternoon stillsometimes, and lots of companies
have had success with afour-day work week, some in the
US a little bit, but a lot morein, like Australia, new Zealand
(24:00):
and many European countriesAustralia, new Zealand and many
European countries.
Yeah, so I think there are somecultural elements to having work
as like the central part ofyour identity, and it was
heartbreaking to interviewingsome of the people for my book
that there were several peoplethat had debilitating health
(24:23):
issues, that thinking of oneperson in particular who some
sort of autoimmune disease thatprevented her from working
altogether for basically therest of her career, and really
wrestling with what is mypurpose now, like why am I here?
(24:43):
If I can't work, then what am Icontributing?
And so I think for a lot ofpeople.
This identity piece is sointertwined with who they are as
a person, their worth as aperson, and this historically
goes back to things like theProtestant work ethic, and so
(25:07):
this is like culturally embeddedin a lot of us, and one of the
other things I'm writing aboutis these ideas that are
culturally embedded in us askids and how we partially
internalize that and just carryit with us, and that's what
fuels our present dayworkaholism.
What was really interesting tome, though like COVID, I feel
(25:30):
like was this eye-opening momentwhere a lot of people realize
just how much everything canchange in an instant.
And I don't know if you felt it, but I felt like this moment in
time where people reallycentered their identity on their
(25:51):
relationships with others, likethem as a parent and as a child
, and then we just I don't know,it's like we just are losing
that gradually and going rightback to the way it was, like
this return to work mandate, andso it was hopeful, really
hopeful, and then I just therewas this new emphasis on mental
(26:13):
health in the workplace, andafter the quiet quitting, it
just felt like for a momentthere we were getting it and we
were doing a lot of stuff right,and then we're just going right
back to doing stuff wrong.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
I feel very not to be .
I know we're all female, it'scalled it feels very broke.
Get back to it and I'm justlike.
The value of community, thevalue of thinking differently,
the value of relationship andespecially, if you want to
really talk about it, going intoAI.
That's going to be yourdifferentiator.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
There's a lot of hidden costs with it, right?
You've brought up a few thestory that you shared of the
80-year-old guy who can't see,multiple heart attacks and
impacts to his family, or theautoimmune disease.
That's no joke, right?
We've talked a little bit aboutthese hidden costs.
What are the hidden costs tothis?
How are we paying for this?
Yeah, so there's tons ofresearch on this, and so the
(27:15):
health impacts are tremendous.
With a lot of aspects ofworkaholism, it's you're
constantly in this like sense ofurgency, almost where I have to
work.
I need to fix thisuncomfortable feeling, and a lot
of people relate it to being infight or flight mode, but our
bodies are just not meant to bein this fight or flight mode all
(27:40):
the time, and never all thetime, and never being able to
get out of that and when you'redone working, to rest and
recover and be able to reset forthe next day.
If you're never doing that, ifyou're always on, if you're
always thinking about work orfeeling anxious about work or
(28:00):
actually working, then your bodyis never going back to baseline
, right?
In order to have a healthyfunctioning, you need that, and
so what happens is your bodyjust adjusts its set point to a
higher level and that spurs alot of these downstream health
(28:20):
outcomes.
So we see that increases yourblood pressure, your resting
heart rate.
So we have people with a lot ofcardiovascular disease.
Sleep issues, which notsurprising.
If you can't stop thinkingabout work, it's hard to fall
asleep or you might wake up inthe middle of the night, and
sleep is really important, as weknow.
Not prioritizing our health andwell-being with like exercise
(28:43):
and stuff like this Autoimmunewas, and even like the
development of cancer.
Again, like if your body'salways in fight or flight, it's
diverting really criticalresources to your critical
organs and what that's doing isit's taking it away from like
other aspects that needs thatsupport, and so then you see the
development of autoimmunedisease and digestive issues and
(29:06):
eventually mortality in some ofthese instances.
So I could go on and on aboutthe health outcomes, but I think
a lot of it it's important tothink about.
We can't always be on, and ifwe are, then it's basically
always our bodies are always infight or flight mode.
Then it's basically always ourbodies are always in fight or
flight mode.
Hear about those horror storieslike the person who retired and
(29:27):
then drops dead the next day,or they went on ppo for the
first time in two years and thendied on the crew there's
constantly like their bodyalmost went into rest and was
like, yep, that's it.
Because so like, how do it'sheartbreaking, it really is like
, how do it's heartbreaking, itreally is when you think about
that it's.
(29:47):
I know we have these horrorstories, but you also
interviewed a ton of people andin that workaholics community
who's like in recovery or tryingto be, was there any stories
that inspired you where someonewas able to really recover and
maybe move away from theseoutcomes, these horror outcomes
(30:08):
that are, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
There were so many inspiringstories and I think, just by the
nature of talking people,talking to people in Workaholics
Anonymous, a lot of them choseto be a part of this
organization, so they wereactively trying to change and I
think for that reason, for a lotof people they've been very
(30:28):
successful in completelychanging just their relationship
with work.
There was one person that Italk about in the book a lot.
His name is Gabe and he was aCEO and really was leading like
the typical workaholic leaderdriving his employees way too
hard, but again being in thislike panic mode all the time he
(30:51):
what did he call himself?
It was like the fear monster orsomething like that, because he
was always dwelling on why didwe do this, why did we do this,
why can't we do this?
And he talked about histransformation and I thought
this was really critical because, yes, in his personal life,
tons of things changed, but as aleader, he went from being this
like frantic boss focusing onthe past to really reevaluating
(31:15):
his relationship with work,setting the example for his
employees about taking time forhimself.
He would not work theseridiculous hours, he would take
time during the day to go rockclimbing and whatnot.
But, most importantly, as aleader, he was able to be more
strategic and forward thinkingwhich, lo and behold, that's
(31:39):
what leaders should be great atis actually inspiring inspiring
people and people can't beinspired and creative when
they're constantly in this panicmode because their boss is on
them about all these thingsright, panicking about deadlines
and whatnot.
But when he changed to justreally taking a step back,
(32:00):
focusing on two or three bigticket items every week and then
letting his employees work anddo their best, I could just tell
in his voice when he wasdescribing, like in the past,
when he was struggling, and thennow and it's really to me that
(32:20):
was one of the people thatinterviewed, that stood out to
me the most was just hearingthat story of his personal
development, but also hisdevelopment as a leader.
Yeah, that internal Elsa mantraof let it go is actually pretty
helpful.
Right, some things don't needand I have to tell my this
myself, this all the time somethings do not need obsessing
about, because that is my natureand I definitely need to work
(32:45):
on that and I tell myself allthe time yeah, it's like
recovery is powerful, not justfor the individual, but anyone
who's got to work with them,because you can feel that energy
around.
Oh yeah, absolutely that.
Frenetic energy and lessfrenetic energy.
Yes, that's a perfect way tothink about it yeah, and
everyone else just like verystressed out and you don't do
(33:06):
your best work because you'reonly stressed.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Domino effect here someone finds themselves
identifying as a workaholic.
How do they recover from thisand I'm sure it's a much more
nuanced, but how would yourespond to that?
What does the recovery looklike?
Speaker 1 (33:38):
I talk about a lot of these in the book too, but one
of the ones that really comes tomind, because it's been
impactful for me, is I thinkthere's this misconception about
rest and recovery.
We think about the strategiesthat are bringing down our heart
rate and helping us to calmdown, which are all great, don't
(33:58):
get me wrong Things likemindfulness, meditation, deep
breathing, but I feel like ifpeople think that's the only way
to rest and recover, they mightbe discouraged.
I know I was.
I was like why do I suck atmindfulness so bad?
I can't meditate at all, sodon't feel guilty.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
I try and I'm like, why do I suck?
Speaker 1 (34:17):
at mindfulness so bad I can't meditate at all.
So don't feel guilty, I try andI'm like never mind my
husband's so good at it.
He took a class in liketranscendental meditation and
he's great at it and does itlike every day and I cannot.
The good news is that's not theonly way to rest and recover,
and there's this there's a lotof research on different
(34:37):
recovery strategies and some ofthem are more active.
And I's a lot of research ondifferent recovery strategies
and some of them are more active.
And I was actually talking withAdam Grant about this, because
he was saying the same thing.
He doesn't like to just sit anddo nothing.
Lo and behold.
That did not surprise me,thinking about all the stuff he
does.
And I'm the same way.
I don't like to just sit andwatch TV.
I have to be doing somethingwith my hands at the same time,
(35:01):
and so if you have those kind oftendencies, then maybe some of
the more active rest andrecovery strategies might be
good.
So we know exercise is good,but maybe solo exercise still
can't get you out of thatmindset, maybe like playing a
team sport.
So before I got old and injuredmy knee, I used to play soccer.
That was really fun, and youhave to focus on the game when
(35:22):
you're in the middle of the game.
There's another thing that Ilove called a mastery experience
and that, to me, works reallywell because it's immersing
yourself in something that's notwork related, that takes your
energy and your brain andfocuses on something else.
So for people that like toconstantly be learning a new
(35:45):
language or an instrument orteaching yourself how to crochet
, something that takesconcentration is key because
it's forcing yourself tomentally detach and that has
been shown to also be a goodrest and recovery activity.
(36:05):
So it's very counterintuitive,right?
This active thing that you'redoing actually can help you rest
and recover and get back tobaseline.
I find that super encouraging.
So I would say, if you don'tlike to just sit there and if
you're not good at mindfulness,try a mastery experience, and
that might be something toreally hone in on as a way to
(36:29):
rest and recover.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
It reminds me of an investment strategy.
Right, you always talk aboutlooking at varying your
portfolio.
Yeah, the idea of varying yourportfolio of focus, because if
you're only in bonds and thenthe bond market goes to shit
versus being diversified.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
I thought about it like that.
To our point earlier aboutidentity, it also helps to build
different parts of youridentity, the different aspects
of yourself.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
That's so important because if your job goes away,
you still have this other piecesof your identity, these other
communities that you belong to,this other place where you feel
valuable and matter and love.
Great piece of advice.
I'm wondering about thesepeople that and I used to get
this invite is to like justunplug, just unplug, just go on
(37:19):
vacation, come back, you'll befine.
Or just learn the art ofdetachment.
I get that too.
What do you say to people whosay to other people that are
workaholics just unplug.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
I just think they don't get how hard that is.
Yes, unplugging is veryimportant.
We call it psychologicaldetachment in our field, but it
is not easy for everybody.
So it goes right back to some.
People have a really hard timeshutting work off.
Have you ever heard of thepsychological study that it asks
people to not think of whitebears and then all they think
(37:53):
about is white bears?
So it's the same kind of logic,right?
Just don't think about work.
And of course you think aboutwork.
You just told me not to thinkabout work.
Some people that detachment hasto be forced by focusing on
something else not work related.
Yeah, the simple fixes just tome is you're probably not a
workaholic.
You probably don't quite get it.
(38:15):
I just want to say mastery, themastery exercise works.
Francesca knows this about me.
I made her some stuff, but Ithink on the road to recovery
from covid I leaned into a newhobby.
I always do this because I justlove new thing, lifelong learner
but I started doing stainedglass and so I make stuff for
people because it's verymethodical and I have to really
(38:39):
focus on this task and studiotime.
It's like my recharge everyMonday and then it brings that
community, but also moving,because, similar to Francesca
and I didn't realize how much myidentity and worth was tied to
work and I'm like, oh man, Ireally got to change that,
because people are more thanjust their job.
That's like the leastinteresting thing about them,
usually as a human being.
(39:00):
We hear that often, but what acool hobby.
I want to see something you'vedone.
That's fascinating.
Let's see what's so?
important.
Do you think legislation that'sbeen proposed to have like work
separation, legislated work,work shut off time Do you think
(39:20):
that's something that might helpin the future In the United
States?
Yeah, we've seen it in SanFrancisco.
It didn't get passed, but it'sbeen proposed.
Yeah, I know that got shot downpretty quickly.
My dad always used to tell me Iwas such a pessimist and I feel
like maybe an optimistic realism.
Is it pessimism?
(39:48):
Yeah, I think that the right todisconnect law that they were
trying to pass in that form.
I don't know it's going to be alot to try to get that to pass
in the States, but maybe we cantake some baby steps like just
other ways to think aboutdisconnecting that aren't this
exact cutoff time.
I think there are.
I would love that.
(40:09):
Let me just say I love thatthere are other countries that
have done that and it's beensuper successful.
I'm a little skeptical thatwe're going to be able to pass
something like that here, but Ithink at the company level
that's something that can beimplemented.
For sure, legislation is wecan't even get paid your rental
leave.
(40:29):
So, ron, talk about that first.
Yeah, in a perfect world,obviously I would love that.
But, yeah, but at the org level, or even team level, like, oh,
like, it's a great norm toincorporate for health.
Yeah, that's definitely doable.
Hey, melissa, are you up forwrap it around?
Absolutely, okay, you couldrespond with one word, one
(40:53):
sentence, or, if you have someheavy thoughts, just jump right
in.
You could share, share it all,we'll go with it.
It's 2030.
What do you think work's goingto look like?
Completely different in someways, and completely the same in
others.
Okay, anything you want to addto that.
(41:13):
How different, I don't know.
I feel like a century ago theypredicted we've had a 14-hour
work week, and here we are today.
So they had predicted thingswould be completely different,
and it's different.
We have computers, we have cellphones, but it's also very much
the same.
We haven't gone to this wildprediction that they had,
although that would be nice, butyeah.
(41:35):
So I think it's going to be alittle bit of both, although
that would be nice, but yeah.
So I think it's going to be alittle bit of both.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
Okay, I for one am excited about the potential of a
14-hour work week.
That sounds pretty nice.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Right, still working on that one.
Yes, long way to go.
What's one thing aboutcorporate culture you'd like to
see just die already.
This obsession with return towork as being like the panacea
of it's just gonna makeeverything better.
(42:05):
It's just again going back toold school and not really
acknowledging that we have a lotof different tools that we
don't need it to look like theway it looked for our parents,
our grandparents, that kind ofthing.
So I I just wish I would die.
I wish people would remainopen-minded, and some people
have, and some people realizedonce they could they would.
(42:25):
They just yanked that abilityback to work from home.
Yeah, francesca and I are on parwith your thinking there, for
sure, cause it's like this oldschool FaceTime requirement and
we think like meaningfulFaceTime for sure, like
collaborative thing, likethere's time and space.
But it's really weird.
(42:46):
It's a weird thing now.
It drives me crazy like theythink.
A lot of people thinkconnections can only happen in
person, but I have talked to somany employees that they work
for remote first organizationsand they still haven't met some
of their co-workers or they meetthem a year after starting and
they already have these closeconnections and bonds.
(43:09):
It's because their company isdoing onboarding completely
different.
They're leveraging technologyin a very unique way.
Instead of just assuming thesame kind of conversations can
happen on Zoom as in person andthat's going to be the same,
they're leveraging these reallycool interactive kind of
platforms that are just buildingthis sense of community in a
(43:34):
different way.
I don't know.
So I could go on and on, butthat I think that is a big pet
peeve of mine when I hear oh,it's because we want people to
have connections with otherpeople, they have to be there,
and I just think that's reallyshort-sighted.
Yeah, check to that what's thegreatest opportunity that
organizations are really missingout on right now?
(43:55):
That's a great question.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
Work from home, just kidding.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
I mean, that kind of was going to be my answer, so I
was trying to think of somethingdifferent.
But again, can I have that bemy answer?
I do think it's the thinkingright.
Yeah, there's not thinkingoutside of the box.
I wrote a chapter recently onthat.
Speaker 2 (44:31):
Yeah, there's not thinking outside of the box.
I wrote a chapter recently onthat how to foster connections
in a digital environment andjust interviewing people for
that chapter.
Just hearing the about returnto work too, it's just, and I'll
cut this out, it's totally fine, but it reminds me of someone
who hasn't gone to therapy torealize like their way isn't the
only way to do something.
And it's just, man, this is solazy, it's so lazy and you
haven't done the work, yeah, andit just feels really regressive
(44:54):
.
What are we doing?
What are we doing?
Commercial real estate, I agreeyeah, and that's another thing.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Okay, get rid of the real estate stuff.
Trying to just recoup yourlosses there, I get it.
Yeah, that sucks Right, but youhave to pivot.
Yeah, I think a lot ofcompanies found themselves in
the leases that they can't getout of and now they're like, oh,
this is what we're doing tosave.
That's just my conspiracytheory on that.
But anyway, with the good musicthat you're listening to right
(45:23):
now, what's on your playlist?
I like alternative rock.
So, honestly, most of the stuffI listen to is not new.
Okay, it's like the stuff Igrew up listening to in high
school and college and,amazingly, a lot of those bands
are touring now.
Some of my favorites are cake.
(45:44):
Uh, pearl jam yeah, like thatkind of genre.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
So I love yeah, I was just listening favorites, yeah,
yeah, they're so good.
Okay, what are you reading?
And this could be an audiobookold school classic Paige Turner.
What are you reading right now?
Speaker 1 (46:06):
I just finished up the Women.
It was the historical fictionbased on women nurses in Vietnam
.
It's by the same author thatwrote the Nightingale Really
great authors, really popularbut I loved it.
It was very deep but very good.
The Nightingale is another one.
If you haven't read that, shewrites like historical fiction
(46:26):
and it's really quite amazing.
Okay, I'll definitely checkthat out.
I like historical stuff.
Who do you really admire?
Who do you really admire?
Adam Grant, okay.
Are you familiar with him?
Yeah, okay, yeah, he's like therock star of organizational
psychology, so I really admirehim.
(46:48):
I think he's always talkingabout good science in a really
relatable way, so I aspire to bejust a little bit like him, in
the hopes of making an impact.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Yeah, and then more voices out there for sure that
make it really accessible tounderstand what to do.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
Yeah, absolutely.
We appreciate you being herewith us.
How can folks stay connectedwith your work?
Connect with me on LinkedIn.
You can go to my website,melissaclarkcom.
Definitely connect with me, andthis was so much to my website.
Melissaclarkcom.
Definitely connect with me andthis was so much fun, I have to
say are so fun, and so I reallyenjoyed this.
Likewise, we'd love to have youback, melissa, especially when
(47:28):
you bring in new stuff.
Call us.
Yeah, okay, sounds good.
This episode was produced,edited and all things by us
myself, mel plett and francescarennery.
Our music is by pink zebra andif you loved this conversation
(47:52):
and you want to contribute yourthoughts with us, please do.
You can visit us atyourworkfriendscom, but you can
also join us over on LinkedIn.
We have a LinkedIn communitypage and we have the TikToks and
Instagrams, so please join usin the socials and if you like
this and you've benefited fromthis episode and you think
(48:12):
someone else can benefit fromthis episode, please rate and
subscribe.
We'd really appreciate it.
That helps keep us going.
Take care, friends.
Bye, friends.
Don't focus on how you feel when you're working.
How do you feel when you're notworking?
Hey, welcome to your work,friends, where we are breaking
(00:23):
down the now and next of work.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
So you stay ahead.
I'm Mel Plett and I amFrancesca Ranieri.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
And we had the pleasure of recently
interviewing Melissa Clark.
She is the associate professorof industrial organization
psychology at the University ofGeorgia and the director of the
Healthy Work Lab and the authorof Never Not Working why the
Always-On Culture is Bad forBusiness and how to Fix it.
(00:52):
This conversation was amazing.
I just love everythingMelissa's about, everything that
she's doing and I like thatshe's calling this out that
always being on is actuallyreally bad for your work.
If you're wondering if you'realways on, you are.
I was in denial and Melissa hasa really good quiz in the front
of her book that I took and itwas definitely you're a
(01:12):
workaholic, which isn't good foryou, right?
And you can't do your best workif you're never stepping away.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
It's also very eye-opening.
You don't realize that justbecause you're not in front of a
screen or not in front of yourteam doesn't mean you're not
working.
For someone like me, I willwake up in the middle of the
night at 2 am and continue tothink about work.
I'm thinking about it as I'mcooking dinner, as I'm in a
meeting with somebody else,thinking about I'm double
working.
If you are spending your mentalenergy, you are working.
(01:43):
Energy, you are working.
And the quiz, our conversation,the book, all relate to me that
I'm always freaking on and thatain't good.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Yeah, and it can really inhibit innovation and I
now am wondering how many goodideas I'm losing out on by not
giving myself the space torefresh.
We talk about ways that you canbuild activities into your day
that help you decompress, thathelp you move away from this
kind of state so you can be atyour best when you need to be,
(02:13):
and I think it's really helpfulfor folks to get healthier.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
About work yeah, it's a conversation I think we all
need to have and have withourselves Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
With that, here's Melissa Clark.
Okay, I'm going to jump rightinto workaholism, because your
book Never Not Working one itstruck a chord with me.
I can totally relate to neverdisconnecting.
(02:44):
That wasn't always the case, bythe way, but slowly, over time,
we see that we're more and moreconnected.
I'm just going to read a fewstats.
That Microsoft Work TrendsIndex annual report came out
recently and they're calling itthe rise of the infinite workday
.
So that report came out and Iwas reading that at the same
time as reading your book andI'm like, oh, this is perfect
(03:05):
timing.
And they found that most peoplestart their day at six, ended
at 730.
And now a peak performancewindow of working time is
considered 430 to 730.
And all I could think wasgrowing up.
Dinner was like at 6, 630.
And if your friends called,your parents were like do not
answer that phone, it's pastseven.
So parents were like do notanswer that phone, it's past
seven.
So it's like where's theboundary with work?
(03:28):
There's no boundary anymore,right?
And the whole world interrupted.
So I'm curious.
Workaholism goes beyond justhours, because I'm noting some
hours here, but it's sinkinginto work around the clock, this
constant mental loop, right?
So how can you recognize, asindividuals, when we've moved
into workaholism ourselves?
(03:49):
How do we?
What are the warning signs?
Automatically, people just goto work hours as the proxy and
the gauge.
But it's not that, like yousaid, it's much messier.
A good way to think about it isto break down the four different
dimensions of workaholism andthat way, once you know them,
you can keep an eye out for ifyou're feeling these things or
(04:11):
experiencing these things.
So the first dimension is themotivational dimension.
This is feeling like you oughtto be working, this kind of
inner pressure.
I describe it as a pit in yourstomach.
It's this uneasy feeling whenyou're not working.
Oh, I really should be checkingmy email or doing this report
(04:32):
or work on this presentation Ihave next week.
That's different than working,because you're pulled to it,
because you love it, and so itcan get really messy too.
You can feel both at the sametime, and that's normal too.
But if you find yourselffeeling like you ought to be
working, that's one component.
The second component isthinking about work all the time
(04:55):
.
So that's a cognitive componentand this is your inability to
mentally disconnect.
So if you're not physicallyworking, you're working in your
head a lot of the times.
So think about what does yourmind drift to when you're not at
work, when you're hanging outwith your friends or your family
?
Are you actually in the momentor do you find yourself
(05:20):
constantly drifting back to work?
Or you have a hard time justsitting and being engaged in a
conversation without thatconstant nagging thought about
this, that and the other thingrelated to work.
Then there's the negativeemotions.
So, with that pit in yourstomach, is feeling anxious or
(05:41):
unsettled or just reallyuncomfortable is a way to think
about it when you're not working.
The reason this drives peopleto work is that they work to
settle that uncomfortablefeeling.
And then there is the workhours component.
But it's hard to track.
We don't clock in and clock outa lot of us for our jobs, but
(06:05):
it's hard to track.
We don't clock in and clock outa lot of us for our jobs.
And so are we really trackinghow much we're working if we're
also checking our emailthroughout the day, the evening,
the weekend, getting on ourlaptop to do a few things in the
evening or first thing when wewake up with our coffee, that
counts as work if we're working,and all that stuff adds up.
Coffee, that counts as work ifwe're working and all that stuff
(06:28):
adds up Things like workingeven when you're on vacation,
that kind of thing.
It's a lot of different ways ofbeing attached to your work in
this maladaptive way is how Ithink about it.
So I would say, just payattention to your gut, feelings,
your emotions, your thoughts,and then these sneaking in work
here and there.
Those are some telltale signsthat you might actually have
(06:52):
some workaholic tendencies.
I talked to many people thatdidn't really realize that was
workaholism and that was reallyeye-opening for them to just pay
more attention to these littlethings here and there, totally
guilty of the thinking.
One, by the way, when I readabout that I was like, oh, I
(07:12):
can't even go on a walksometimes without just in
ruminating on yeah, checklistsor things I'm thinking about and
I'm like, can I shut my brainoff?
I can't.
My husband always jokes younever shut your brain off.
I don't know if that's one ofthe most common ones, but it's
just constant like a loop.
So yeah, it's pretty common andfor me, I definitely have some
workaholic tendencies.
(07:33):
I have to actively distractmyself, and so, in order to shut
it off, I can't just engage inmindfulness relaxation exercise.
I have to actively focus onsomething else, distract myself.
So I listen to podcasts a lotwhen I'm walking or working out
or driving, so that my minddoesn't automatically drift to
(07:56):
work and no, they're notwork-related podcasts.
I think that's key too.
Yeah, something notwork-related, yeah.
So I have to force myself notto think about work.
It's tough.
We hear a lot about likeengagement and there's a lot of
blurriness between likeengagement, productivity and
workaholism.
What's the real differencebetween those?
That's where it gets reallytricky.
(08:16):
There's not like a concretedifference between the two,
because you can be an engagedworkaholic I would put myself in
that category.
I love my work and I am drawnto it because I enjoy so many
different parts about it, but Ialso struggle to disconnect.
We call it the push and pull ofwork, and so it's not a clear.
(08:40):
You are either a workaholic oryou're an engaged worker.
You can absolutely be both, andwhat's important to think about
is that work engagement isshown to have a ton of really
positive outcomes, right forperformance, for well you're a
workaholic.
If you're engaged, it's finebecause you know that's going to
(09:09):
help your productivity and yourwell-being.
But they actually find there'smore evidence for the opposite,
that the positive effects ofwork engagement on our
productivity and our health andwell-being are essentially
almost washed away by thenegative impacts of workaholism
on our health and well-being,are essentially almost washed
away by the negative impacts ofworkaholism on our health and
well-being and productivity.
(09:29):
So it's something worth keepingin mind.
It's not an either or.
And yes, work engagement isgreat, but what I tend to tell
people to focus on is don'tfocus on how you feel when
you're working.
How do you feel when you're notworking?
Yeah, I like that flip, becausethen you're not taking work out
(09:49):
of the equation altogether.
What am I disassociating?
Am I not taking action outsideof this sort of thing?
Because I know it's easy to getinto kind of those freeze modes
, right, when you feeloverwhelmed by the work.
What do you say to the folkswho are like I can work seven
days a week.
It energizes me.
Can we truly stay healthy thisway?
(10:09):
Or are we just feeding intothis kind of badge of honor
hustle culture that we've builtup in the US.
My personal opinion I thinkpeople are fooling themselves.
When I wrote the book, Iinterviewed dozens of people
from Workaholics Anonymous.
That's a real organization thatpeople join to try to, you know
(10:30):
, combat their workaholictendencies.
It's structured actually afterAlcoholics Anonymous, with a
12-step program.
Every single person had somesort of negative health or
relationship impact, many things, usually across their lives,
like I had four heart attacks.
I heard that multiple peoplehaving multiple heart attacks.
(10:52):
So I want to give you an exampleof someone I spoke with.
He was almost in his 80s.
He was still working full time.
He had his own company.
His wife almost divorced himmultiple times, health problems
(11:19):
galore, and I was like, when areyou going to stop working?
And he said I'm never going tostop this.
And I've interviewed a lot ofpeople workaholics, spouses of
workaholics and really a lot ofpeople do recognize it's bad.
But the people that don't, evenif they don't recognize it,
their body is telling themsomething different.
(11:39):
And the people around themtheir family, their partners,
their kids are also seeingsomething different.
We've seen huge layoffs overthe past year.
(11:59):
I think one of the statisticswe saw recently is 3.5% of
white-collar jobs have been cutin this past year.
The one in five of the S&P 500is now smaller, and so teams
that are left behind are pickingup the slack.
How do you see this shaping thefuture of workaholism as well?
Because there's like theindividual side where we have
(12:22):
control is like the individualside where we have control.
But when you're in theseenvironments that have been
impacted from the recent shifts,how does that impact the future
of workaholism?
Wonderful questions.
Part of what drives workaholismis from within, like we have
our own different personalitytraits and some of us just
naturally are more workaholicthan others.
(12:45):
Same thing as if we talk abouttype A personality or
extroversion or something.
But there is also researchshowing that the environment can
shape even things that wethought were stable, like our
personality, which is reallyfascinating with workaholism.
We're finding that things likethe society that we grew up in,
the organizational culture, theteam culture your supervisor
(13:07):
demands all those things canshape future workaholic
tendencies.
And in a study that I'm workingon right now, we're actually
looking at job insecurity andhow that affects future levels
of workaholism, and we'refinding evidence for that, and I
(13:34):
think the reason why is thatjob insecurity is a huge job
stressor.
It causes a lot of anxiety.
This uncertainty that we'refeeling is one of those features
of workaholism, right, so we'refeeling really unsure about the
stability of our job and evenjust the existence of our career
in the future with AI.
There's a lot of uncertaintiesand I think that uncertainty can
(13:57):
fuel some of the alreadyexisting tendencies that we
might have, and even people thatdon't have workaholic
tendencies.
I think this uncertainenvironment most certainly might
escalate that as well, if notworkaholism, just overworked
behaviors, right, becauseeveryone is.
(14:17):
I hear this from so many peopleand honestly, I feel it too.
I think a lot.
You can make the case foralmost every single job being
changed in very dramatic andtransformational ways in the
future with AI, and it's justvery uncertain.
Yeah, so it has hugeimplications for overwork in
(14:40):
addition to workaholism.
Yeah, I have friends who feelthat maybe they're going through
merger and acquisition or theAI.
They're plucking outdepartments and replacing it
with AI and friends who.
I never thought were workaholics.
I'm seeing their home, theirpersonality change, so what
you're saying really resonateswith me, because like they're
(15:01):
working till six, seven, eightpm, but that's not their
personality.
It never has been until theselike other actors, which is
interesting, so interesting tosee that play out.
Yeah, I know.
So I do worry about that in thefuture yeah there is this, and
you talk about it.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
In the book, too, there is this idea of being
always on, because I even findthat the definition of work is
expanding so much, meaning itwas just about the tasks and the
job you had to do and you hadmore job security.
Now to your very good point.
It's about the tasks you needto do, the political minutiae
(15:40):
you need to map through theinsecurity that you're always
trying to navigate as well.
Maybe I'm going to have my job,maybe I won't.
I also find now you need tobuild your brand and have a
presence online.
I don't understand how you comeout of that, not having your
personality just be, likechanged.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Yeah, excellent point .
I don't think enough people aretalking about this.
Just how, for some careers mineis one, yours is one you have
to have that public presence andthat is a full-time job, like
punching your LinkedIn and yourInstagram I'm not even remotely
good at that.
I feel that intense pressureand I know I need to be doing
(16:18):
more.
And it's like when do you havetime to do that on top of your
other job is in the evening.
Do that on top of your otherjob is in the evening.
It just makes it so you'reconstantly thinking about that,
not just your work, what you'repaid for in your job description
, but the other aspects of work.
Yeah, such an excellent point.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
One of the things about Always On you talk about
is this idea of like triple peakand Always On.
Talk to us about.
What does that look like forthe average person right now?
Is it what we just talked about?
Is it what we just talked?
Speaker 1 (16:46):
about.
Is it more so?
This is really fascinating,talking about some interesting
stuff that Microsoft has lookedinto, and what's really cool
about this is that they're usingtheir technology to track, like
keystroke data and objectivedata, so it's not just
self-report of when we'reworking, they're actually
tracking when we're working byuse of, like all of their
(17:08):
software programs.
So during COVID, they conducteda study of when people were
working, when a lot of peoplewere working from home and a lot
of people also had their kidshome with them, where this is
back when schools had moved toremote.
So if you had young kids, thenthey were home with you and you
(17:29):
were trying to do both duringthe day.
And so what happened duringCOVID and this was picked up in
Microsoft's study was that wehave a natural peak in
productivity at the beginning ofthe workday towards the end,
before we're done.
That's normal, but then theyfound a triple peak, which is
this additional burst ofproductivity in those evening
(17:50):
hours I forget the exact it waslike between 7 and 9 pm.
It was what they found duringCOVID and I'm thinking, ok, I
don't have young kids now, but Iremember when they were young
and that is exactly when I wouldput them to bed and then you
just get back to work.
So that's what I and I thinkothers have said the same thing.
So what was happening then isparents that had kids home with
(18:10):
them a lot of them had thisburst of productivity when they
finally could put them down forbed.
That's fine in that context,right, but what happened is we
never really transitioned out ofthat, and this most recent
study is still showing that wenow have this additional peak of
(18:31):
productivity in the evening,where we didn't really made that
conscious effort to stop thathabit and go back to respecting
work hours and respectingboundaries, and we've all just
(18:53):
become accustomed to beingavailable and, I think, having
those clear discussions of whatare our work hours, when is it
reasonable to ping someone onSlack or whatever your app
messaging is, and when can thiswait until the next day during
(19:14):
work?
When can you send an email andschedule?
Most recent the infiniteworkday studies are.
What they're telling me is thatwe continue to really blur that
boundary between work and homeand we really are to the point
(19:36):
now where we really don't havethem, and it's going to take a
conscious effort to reestablishthat.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Yeah, I think you're spot on there.
It's so interesting to mebecause I know a lot of people
like to blame Slack and the techis the villain and everything
else, and I appreciate that weare more connected, we have more
accessibility to broadband andZoom Teams, slack, whatever and
I think it comes down to and I'dlove for you to say, francesca,
(20:05):
you're full of shit, or yes, Iagree, but I do think it really
comes down to not the CEO level,like the Andy Jassy level,
saying AI is going to take over,get your shit together and get
out of here, but I think itcomes down to this team level.
Leadership.
Being very aware of this is howhumans are interacting with
this tech and setting thoseboundaries.
(20:27):
Are you finding that's whatit's taking or is it really?
Speaker 1 (20:31):
No, you're spot on, you really are.
The manager has the most directrelationship to the employees,
right?
That team and the team dynamicsreally shape how connected you
are, whether you want to be ornot.
There's what's called the cycleof responsiveness that this
(20:51):
communication technology causes,and it's basically it starts
with an always-on expectationwhere you know you're expected
to respond right away whenpeople message you.
So that's again, that's theculture of your team, right?
What does your boss think aboutwhen they send a message?
Do they expect a reply rightaway?
(21:13):
If that's the case, then peopleknow that, and so then they tend
to be always checking to makesure they didn't miss something.
And because they're alwayschecking, they're not gonna miss
something and they're going toimmediately reply.
And everyone else on the team,they don't want to be left
behind.
They don't want decisions to bemade while they're at a soccer
(21:34):
game watching their kid play.
They want to be in the loop.
So everyone has this pressure toalways be on, and because
everyone's going to respondright away, you respond right
away, and it just it likeamplifies this always on cycle
and it just reinforces thatculture and then so, yeah, it
(21:57):
really the only way to breakthat is to have a clear break, a
boundary setting meeting, andit's not just one meeting, it's
going to have to be multiplemeetings, because the way this
breaks is either the managerdoesn't set firm boundaries or
the manager just allows it tohappen again and the first
(22:20):
person to break that boundary.
If that's not addressed, thenit just goes right back to being
always on.
So there was a book I read whenI was researching for my book.
It was on school cultureactually, and they had a quote
that stood out to me it's theculture of the school.
So in this case theorganization is is based on the
(22:41):
worst behavior that's tolerated,and I just loved that because
it makes so much sense.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
It makes sense.
I mean just this subtle.
If your boss is checking theiremail on vacation or if they're
responding at 2 am in themorning, it makes sense even
with toxic behaviors, and peopleare doing stuff that causes
cancer on the team, it makestotal sense.
Do you find that there are somecultures that don't have this
(23:09):
work above everything thinggoing on?
Or are we just all needingtherapy in the US?
Speaker 1 (23:16):
I think there are definitely some parts that are
unique to the US and othercountries too that have real
problems with workaholism.
China, japan, south Korea,those all come to mind too.
But the US is bad too.
But there are countries thatare doing it different, and you
(23:37):
look at a lot of the Europeancountries that have everyone
takes holiday for multiple weeks, maybe even a month in the
summer, and everything justshuts down at certain points
during the afternoon stillsometimes, and lots of companies
have had success with afour-day work week, some in the
US a little bit, but a lot morein, like Australia, new Zealand
(24:00):
and many European countriesAustralia, new Zealand and many
European countries.
Yeah, so I think there are somecultural elements to having work
as like the central part ofyour identity, and it was
heartbreaking to interviewingsome of the people for my book
that there were several peoplethat had debilitating health
(24:23):
issues, that thinking of oneperson in particular who some
sort of autoimmune disease thatprevented her from working
altogether for basically therest of her career, and really
wrestling with what is mypurpose now, like why am I here?
(24:43):
If I can't work, then what am Icontributing?
And so I think for a lot ofpeople.
This identity piece is sointertwined with who they are as
a person, their worth as aperson, and this historically
goes back to things like theProtestant work ethic, and so
(25:07):
this is like culturally embeddedin a lot of us, and one of the
other things I'm writing aboutis these ideas that are
culturally embedded in us askids and how we partially
internalize that and just carryit with us, and that's what
fuels our present dayworkaholism.
What was really interesting tome, though like COVID, I feel
(25:30):
like was this eye-opening momentwhere a lot of people realize
just how much everything canchange in an instant.
And I don't know if you felt it, but I felt like this moment in
time where people reallycentered their identity on their
(25:51):
relationships with others, likethem as a parent and as a child
, and then we just I don't know,it's like we just are losing
that gradually and going rightback to the way it was, like
this return to work mandate, andso it was hopeful, really
hopeful, and then I just therewas this new emphasis on mental
(26:13):
health in the workplace, andafter the quiet quitting, it
just felt like for a momentthere we were getting it and we
were doing a lot of stuff right,and then we're just going right
back to doing stuff wrong.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
I feel very not to be .
I know we're all female, it'scalled it feels very broke.
Get back to it and I'm justlike.
The value of community, thevalue of thinking differently,
the value of relationship andespecially, if you want to
really talk about it, going intoAI.
That's going to be yourdifferentiator.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
There's a lot of hidden costs with it, right?
You've brought up a few thestory that you shared of the
80-year-old guy who can't see,multiple heart attacks and
impacts to his family, or theautoimmune disease.
That's no joke, right?
We've talked a little bit aboutthese hidden costs.
What are the hidden costs tothis?
How are we paying for this?
Yeah, so there's tons ofresearch on this, and so the
(27:15):
health impacts are tremendous.
With a lot of aspects ofworkaholism, it's you're
constantly in this like sense ofurgency, almost where I have to
work.
I need to fix thisuncomfortable feeling, and a lot
of people relate it to being infight or flight mode, but our
bodies are just not meant to bein this fight or flight mode all
(27:40):
the time, and never all thetime, and never being able to
get out of that and when you'redone working, to rest and
recover and be able to reset forthe next day.
If you're never doing that, ifyou're always on, if you're
always thinking about work orfeeling anxious about work or
(28:00):
actually working, then your bodyis never going back to baseline
, right?
In order to have a healthyfunctioning, you need that, and
so what happens is your bodyjust adjusts its set point to a
higher level and that spurs alot of these downstream health
(28:20):
outcomes.
So we see that increases yourblood pressure, your resting
heart rate.
So we have people with a lot ofcardiovascular disease.
Sleep issues, which notsurprising.
If you can't stop thinkingabout work, it's hard to fall
asleep or you might wake up inthe middle of the night, and
sleep is really important, as weknow.
Not prioritizing our health andwell-being with like exercise
(28:43):
and stuff like this Autoimmunewas, and even like the
development of cancer.
Again, like if your body'salways in fight or flight, it's
diverting really criticalresources to your critical
organs and what that's doing isit's taking it away from like
other aspects that needs thatsupport, and so then you see the
development of autoimmunedisease and digestive issues and
(29:06):
eventually mortality in some ofthese instances.
So I could go on and on aboutthe health outcomes, but I think
a lot of it it's important tothink about.
We can't always be on, and ifwe are, then it's basically
always our bodies are always infight or flight mode.
Then it's basically always ourbodies are always in fight or
flight mode.
Hear about those horror storieslike the person who retired and
(29:27):
then drops dead the next day,or they went on ppo for the
first time in two years and thendied on the crew there's
constantly like their bodyalmost went into rest and was
like, yep, that's it.
Because so like, how do it'sheartbreaking, it really is like
, how do it's heartbreaking, itreally is when you think about
that it's.
(29:47):
I know we have these horrorstories, but you also
interviewed a ton of people andin that workaholics community
who's like in recovery or tryingto be, was there any stories
that inspired you where someonewas able to really recover and
maybe move away from theseoutcomes, these horror outcomes
(30:08):
that are, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
There were so many inspiringstories and I think, just by the
nature of talking people,talking to people in Workaholics
Anonymous, a lot of them choseto be a part of this
organization, so they wereactively trying to change and I
think for that reason, for a lotof people they've been very
(30:28):
successful in completelychanging just their relationship
with work.
There was one person that Italk about in the book a lot.
His name is Gabe and he was aCEO and really was leading like
the typical workaholic leaderdriving his employees way too
hard, but again being in thislike panic mode all the time he
(30:51):
what did he call himself?
It was like the fear monster orsomething like that, because he
was always dwelling on why didwe do this, why did we do this,
why can't we do this?
And he talked about histransformation and I thought
this was really critical because, yes, in his personal life,
tons of things changed, but as aleader, he went from being this
like frantic boss focusing onthe past to really reevaluating
(31:15):
his relationship with work,setting the example for his
employees about taking time forhimself.
He would not work theseridiculous hours, he would take
time during the day to go rockclimbing and whatnot.
But, most importantly, as aleader, he was able to be more
strategic and forward thinkingwhich, lo and behold, that's
(31:39):
what leaders should be great atis actually inspiring inspiring
people and people can't beinspired and creative when
they're constantly in this panicmode because their boss is on
them about all these thingsright, panicking about deadlines
and whatnot.
But when he changed to justreally taking a step back,
(32:00):
focusing on two or three bigticket items every week and then
letting his employees work anddo their best, I could just tell
in his voice when he wasdescribing, like in the past,
when he was struggling, and thennow and it's really to me that
(32:20):
was one of the people thatinterviewed, that stood out to
me the most was just hearingthat story of his personal
development, but also hisdevelopment as a leader.
Yeah, that internal Elsa mantraof let it go is actually pretty
helpful.
Right, some things don't needand I have to tell my this
myself, this all the time somethings do not need obsessing
about, because that is my natureand I definitely need to work
(32:45):
on that and I tell myself allthe time yeah, it's like
recovery is powerful, not justfor the individual, but anyone
who's got to work with them,because you can feel that energy
around.
Oh yeah, absolutely that.
Frenetic energy and lessfrenetic energy.
Yes, that's a perfect way tothink about it yeah, and
everyone else just like verystressed out and you don't do
(33:06):
your best work because you'reonly stressed.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Domino effect here someone finds themselves
identifying as a workaholic.
How do they recover from thisand I'm sure it's a much more
nuanced, but how would yourespond to that?
What does the recovery looklike?
Speaker 1 (33:38):
I talk about a lot of these in the book too, but one
of the ones that really comes tomind, because it's been
impactful for me, is I thinkthere's this misconception about
rest and recovery.
We think about the strategiesthat are bringing down our heart
rate and helping us to calmdown, which are all great, don't
(33:58):
get me wrong Things likemindfulness, meditation, deep
breathing, but I feel like ifpeople think that's the only way
to rest and recover, they mightbe discouraged.
I know I was.
I was like why do I suck atmindfulness so bad?
I can't meditate at all, sodon't feel guilty.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
I try and I'm like, why do I suck?
Speaker 1 (34:17):
at mindfulness so bad I can't meditate at all.
So don't feel guilty, I try andI'm like never mind my
husband's so good at it.
He took a class in liketranscendental meditation and
he's great at it and does itlike every day and I cannot.
The good news is that's not theonly way to rest and recover,
and there's this there's a lotof research on different
(34:37):
recovery strategies and some ofthem are more active.
And I's a lot of research ondifferent recovery strategies
and some of them are more active.
And I was actually talking withAdam Grant about this, because
he was saying the same thing.
He doesn't like to just sit anddo nothing.
Lo and behold.
That did not surprise me,thinking about all the stuff he
does.
And I'm the same way.
I don't like to just sit andwatch TV.
I have to be doing somethingwith my hands at the same time,
(35:01):
and so if you have those kind oftendencies, then maybe some of
the more active rest andrecovery strategies might be
good.
So we know exercise is good,but maybe solo exercise still
can't get you out of thatmindset, maybe like playing a
team sport.
So before I got old and injuredmy knee, I used to play soccer.
That was really fun, and youhave to focus on the game when
(35:22):
you're in the middle of the game.
There's another thing that Ilove called a mastery experience
and that, to me, works reallywell because it's immersing
yourself in something that's notwork related, that takes your
energy and your brain andfocuses on something else.
So for people that like toconstantly be learning a new
(35:45):
language or an instrument orteaching yourself how to crochet
, something that takesconcentration is key because
it's forcing yourself tomentally detach and that has
been shown to also be a goodrest and recovery activity.
(36:05):
So it's very counterintuitive,right?
This active thing that you'redoing actually can help you rest
and recover and get back tobaseline.
I find that super encouraging.
So I would say, if you don'tlike to just sit there and if
you're not good at mindfulness,try a mastery experience, and
that might be something toreally hone in on as a way to
(36:29):
rest and recover.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
It reminds me of an investment strategy.
Right, you always talk aboutlooking at varying your
portfolio.
Yeah, the idea of varying yourportfolio of focus, because if
you're only in bonds and thenthe bond market goes to shit
versus being diversified.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
I thought about it like that.
To our point earlier aboutidentity, it also helps to build
different parts of youridentity, the different aspects
of yourself.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
That's so important because if your job goes away,
you still have this other piecesof your identity, these other
communities that you belong to,this other place where you feel
valuable and matter and love.
Great piece of advice.
I'm wondering about thesepeople that and I used to get
this invite is to like justunplug, just unplug, just go on
(37:19):
vacation, come back, you'll befine.
Or just learn the art ofdetachment.
I get that too.
What do you say to people whosay to other people that are
workaholics just unplug.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
I just think they don't get how hard that is.
Yes, unplugging is veryimportant.
We call it psychologicaldetachment in our field, but it
is not easy for everybody.
So it goes right back to some.
People have a really hard timeshutting work off.
Have you ever heard of thepsychological study that it asks
people to not think of whitebears and then all they think
(37:53):
about is white bears?
So it's the same kind of logic,right?
Just don't think about work.
And of course you think aboutwork.
You just told me not to thinkabout work.
Some people that detachment hasto be forced by focusing on
something else not work related.
Yeah, the simple fixes just tome is you're probably not a
workaholic.
You probably don't quite get it.
(38:15):
I just want to say mastery, themastery exercise works.
Francesca knows this about me.
I made her some stuff, but Ithink on the road to recovery
from covid I leaned into a newhobby.
I always do this because I justlove new thing, lifelong learner
but I started doing stainedglass and so I make stuff for
people because it's verymethodical and I have to really
(38:39):
focus on this task and studiotime.
It's like my recharge everyMonday and then it brings that
community, but also moving,because, similar to Francesca
and I didn't realize how much myidentity and worth was tied to
work and I'm like, oh man, Ireally got to change that,
because people are more thanjust their job.
That's like the leastinteresting thing about them,
usually as a human being.
(39:00):
We hear that often, but what acool hobby.
I want to see something you'vedone.
That's fascinating.
Let's see what's so?
important.
Do you think legislation that'sbeen proposed to have like work
separation, legislated work,work shut off time Do you think
(39:20):
that's something that might helpin the future In the United
States?
Yeah, we've seen it in SanFrancisco.
It didn't get passed, but it'sbeen proposed.
Yeah, I know that got shot downpretty quickly.
My dad always used to tell me Iwas such a pessimist and I feel
like maybe an optimistic realism.
Is it pessimism?
(39:48):
Yeah, I think that the right todisconnect law that they were
trying to pass in that form.
I don't know it's going to be alot to try to get that to pass
in the States, but maybe we cantake some baby steps like just
other ways to think aboutdisconnecting that aren't this
exact cutoff time.
I think there are.
I would love that.
(40:09):
Let me just say I love thatthere are other countries that
have done that and it's beensuper successful.
I'm a little skeptical thatwe're going to be able to pass
something like that here, but Ithink at the company level
that's something that can beimplemented.
For sure, legislation is wecan't even get paid your rental
leave.
(40:29):
So, ron, talk about that first.
Yeah, in a perfect world,obviously I would love that.
But, yeah, but at the org level, or even team level, like, oh,
like, it's a great norm toincorporate for health.
Yeah, that's definitely doable.
Hey, melissa, are you up forwrap it around?
Absolutely, okay, you couldrespond with one word, one
(40:53):
sentence, or, if you have someheavy thoughts, just jump right
in.
You could share, share it all,we'll go with it.
It's 2030.
What do you think work's goingto look like?
Completely different in someways, and completely the same in
others.
Okay, anything you want to addto that.
(41:13):
How different, I don't know.
I feel like a century ago theypredicted we've had a 14-hour
work week, and here we are today.
So they had predicted thingswould be completely different,
and it's different.
We have computers, we have cellphones, but it's also very much
the same.
We haven't gone to this wildprediction that they had,
although that would be nice, butyeah.
(41:35):
So I think it's going to be alittle bit of both, although
that would be nice, but yeah.
So I think it's going to be alittle bit of both.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
Okay, I for one am excited about the potential of a
14-hour work week.
That sounds pretty nice.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Right, still working on that one.
Yes, long way to go.
What's one thing aboutcorporate culture you'd like to
see just die already.
This obsession with return towork as being like the panacea
of it's just gonna makeeverything better.
(42:05):
It's just again going back toold school and not really
acknowledging that we have a lotof different tools that we
don't need it to look like theway it looked for our parents,
our grandparents, that kind ofthing.
So I I just wish I would die.
I wish people would remainopen-minded, and some people
have, and some people realizedonce they could they would.
(42:25):
They just yanked that abilityback to work from home.
Yeah, francesca and I are on parwith your thinking there, for
sure, cause it's like this oldschool FaceTime requirement and
we think like meaningfulFaceTime for sure, like
collaborative thing, likethere's time and space.
But it's really weird.
(42:46):
It's a weird thing now.
It drives me crazy like theythink.
A lot of people thinkconnections can only happen in
person, but I have talked to somany employees that they work
for remote first organizationsand they still haven't met some
of their co-workers or they meetthem a year after starting and
they already have these closeconnections and bonds.
(43:09):
It's because their company isdoing onboarding completely
different.
They're leveraging technologyin a very unique way.
Instead of just assuming thesame kind of conversations can
happen on Zoom as in person andthat's going to be the same,
they're leveraging these reallycool interactive kind of
platforms that are just buildingthis sense of community in a
(43:34):
different way.
I don't know.
So I could go on and on, butthat I think that is a big pet
peeve of mine when I hear oh,it's because we want people to
have connections with otherpeople, they have to be there,
and I just think that's reallyshort-sighted.
Yeah, check to that what's thegreatest opportunity that
organizations are really missingout on right now?
(43:55):
That's a great question.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
Work from home, just kidding.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
I mean, that kind of was going to be my answer, so I
was trying to think of somethingdifferent.
But again, can I have that bemy answer?
I do think it's the thinkingright.
Yeah, there's not thinkingoutside of the box.
I wrote a chapter recently onthat.
Speaker 2 (44:31):
Yeah, there's not thinking outside of the box.
I wrote a chapter recently onthat how to foster connections
in a digital environment andjust interviewing people for
that chapter.
Just hearing the about returnto work too, it's just, and I'll
cut this out, it's totally fine, but it reminds me of someone
who hasn't gone to therapy torealize like their way isn't the
only way to do something.
And it's just, man, this is solazy, it's so lazy and you
haven't done the work, yeah, andit just feels really regressive
(44:54):
.
What are we doing?
What are we doing?
Commercial real estate, I agreeyeah, and that's another thing.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Okay, get rid of the real estate stuff.
Trying to just recoup yourlosses there, I get it.
Yeah, that sucks Right, but youhave to pivot.
Yeah, I think a lot ofcompanies found themselves in
the leases that they can't getout of and now they're like, oh,
this is what we're doing tosave.
That's just my conspiracytheory on that.
But anyway, with the good musicthat you're listening to right
(45:23):
now, what's on your playlist?
I like alternative rock.
So, honestly, most of the stuffI listen to is not new.
Okay, it's like the stuff Igrew up listening to in high
school and college and,amazingly, a lot of those bands
are touring now.
Some of my favorites are cake.
(45:44):
Uh, pearl jam yeah, like thatkind of genre.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
So I love yeah, I was just listening favorites, yeah,
yeah, they're so good.
Okay, what are you reading?
And this could be an audiobookold school classic Paige Turner.
What are you reading right now?
Speaker 1 (46:06):
I just finished up the Women.
It was the historical fictionbased on women nurses in Vietnam
.
It's by the same author thatwrote the Nightingale Really
great authors, really popularbut I loved it.
It was very deep but very good.
The Nightingale is another one.
If you haven't read that, shewrites like historical fiction
(46:26):
and it's really quite amazing.
Okay, I'll definitely checkthat out.
I like historical stuff.
Who do you really admire?
Who do you really admire?
Adam Grant, okay.
Are you familiar with him?
Yeah, okay, yeah, he's like therock star of organizational
psychology, so I really admirehim.
(46:48):
I think he's always talkingabout good science in a really
relatable way, so I aspire to bejust a little bit like him, in
the hopes of making an impact.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Yeah, and then more voices out there for sure that
make it really accessible tounderstand what to do.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
Yeah, absolutely.
We appreciate you being herewith us.
How can folks stay connectedwith your work?
Connect with me on LinkedIn.
You can go to my website,melissaclarkcom.
Definitely connect with me, andthis was so much to my website.
Melissaclarkcom.
Definitely connect with me andthis was so much fun, I have to
say are so fun, and so I reallyenjoyed this.
Likewise, we'd love to have youback, melissa, especially when
(47:28):
you bring in new stuff.
Call us.
Yeah, okay, sounds good.
This episode was produced,edited and all things by us
myself, mel plett and francescarennery.
Our music is by pink zebra andif you loved this conversation
(47:52):
and you want to contribute yourthoughts with us, please do.
You can visit us atyourworkfriendscom, but you can
also join us over on LinkedIn.
We have a LinkedIn communitypage and we have the TikToks and
Instagrams, so please join usin the socials and if you like
this and you've benefited fromthis episode and you think
(48:12):
someone else can benefit fromthis episode, please rate and
subscribe.
We'd really appreciate it.
That helps keep us going.
Take care, friends.
Bye, friends.
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