September 23, 2025 • 33 mins
Ever felt like your hard work wasn’t enough?
That’s because the biggest career breaks don’t always come from effort alone—they come from the people who open doors for you.
In this episode of Your Work Friends, we sit down with, Carnegie Mellon Professor, organizational psychologist and author Rosalind Chow to unpack the power of sponsorship. Not mentorship (that’s important too), but sponsorship—the behind-the-scenes advocacy that shapes reputations, gets your name in the room, and changes who gets ahead.
We talk about:
- The simple one-liner that explains mentorship vs. sponsorship
- Why Rosalyn calls sharing someone else’s win good gossip
- The four ways sponsorship actually works—create, confirm, prevent, and protect
- How women and people of color are often “sponsored differently”
- Practical moves anyone can make this week to sponsor someone else
If you want to understand how influence really works at work—and how to use it to build fairer, smarter teams—this conversation is a must-listen.
Connect with Rosalind:
- Her website
- Her LinkedIn
- Her book, "The Doors You Can Open: A New Way to Network, Build Trust, and Use Your Influence to Create a More Inclusive Workplace"
Disclaimer: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered professional advice. We are not responsible for any losses, damages, or liabilities that may arise from the use of this podcast. The views expressed in this podcast may not be those of the host or the management.
Thanks for listening!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
My general prescription is just if you know
someone's good news, you shouldjust share it.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Hey friends, welcome back to your work, friends,
where we break down the now andnext of work so you stay ahead.
Today we sat down withorganizational psychologist
Rosalyn Chow to talk aboutsomething that we know quietly
makes or breaks your career.
Rosalyn is a professor oforganizational behavioral theory
at the Tepper School ofBusiness and she's also
(00:42):
affiliated with the Social andDecision Sciences Group at
Detroit College.
She is a faculty director ofCLIMB, offered through the
Tepper School of Business, whichis in partnership with Deloitte
, and she is the foundingfaculty director for the
Executive Leadership Academy.
So she knows a thing or twoabout this topic.
Francesca, what do you think?
Speaker 3 (01:02):
To me, rosalyn is like one of the experts, if not
the expert, on sponsorship.
As Rosalyn puts it, mentorstalk to you, but sponsors talk
about you and they really shapethe room when you're not in it.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Yeah, what I really loved about this conversation is
the simple, tactical, practicalthings that people can do right
away.
She helped us map whatsponsorship can be.
You're also going to hear abouthow this actually helps teams
and what she calls collectiveintelligence.
Teams are literally gettingsmarter when we make each
(01:36):
other's strengths visibleamongst each other.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
In today's episode, you're going to walk away with
three key things One, two movesyou can do this week to share a
colleague's good news and invitesomeone under the radar into
the room where it happens.
Two, how to ask for sponsorshipwithout the cringe, the ick we
all might feel.
And three, why leaders shouldreward the people who spot
talent and open doors, not justthe high performers.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
It's really thoughtful.
Rosalyn is awesome.
All right, let's open somedoors.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Here's our conversation with Rosalyn Chow.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
All right, I'd love to get into the book.
It's so good.
What inspired you to write theDoors you Can Open?
Was there a catalyst that youwere like I have to get this out
now to write the Doors you CanOpen?
Was there a?
Speaker 1 (02:25):
catalyst that you were like I have to get this out
now.
I wouldn't say that there is acatalyst.
If anything, I think I waspretty resistant to the idea of
writing a book.
I started teaching in thisexecutive education program.
I talk about this a little bitin the book and one of the
things that was reallygratifying about making that
change is that people would comeup to me after I would do
(02:47):
programming and they would wantto know if there were other
resources that I could pointthem to.
And the reality was that Ididn't think that anybody had
said what I was thinking in theway that I wanted it to come out
.
So then I figured I should goahead and provide this resource
(03:08):
that I wish I could give topeople.
So that was really the impetus.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Yeah, it's incredibly important and, by the way, I
was at a networking event lastnight full of women talking
about credibility and they allhad that same challenge.
Does anyone care about what Ineed to say?
Yes, you have very valuablethings to add to the world.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
I got over it enough to actually produce the book.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Yeah, I'm glad you did.
It's so good.
And this is not a networkingbook.
You and I talked about thatwhen we initially met.
Instead of networking, what doyou want people to expect
instead when they pick up yourbook?
Speaker 1 (03:45):
I don't know that I would say it's not a networking
book.
I think it's more like ananti-networking book, in the
sense that it is aboutnetworking, but it is about
trying to change how we network.
So it's not about networkingbetter.
The book is about sponsorship,how we elevate other people, and
(04:06):
through elevating other peoplewe actually end up elevating
ourselves, and what thatsuggests is a reorientation
toward networking to bedifferent than, I think, the way
most of us have been taught tothink about it, which is that we
network because there arethings that we need from other
people, and so we go out to findpeople who have these resources
(04:30):
and then we try to convincethem that we should have a
relationship with them so thatthey will give us what we need.
That's a very cynical,strategic way of thinking about
networking.
I think people often are likeit should be win-win right,
where it's not that you're justtaking from them, you're giving
them something too.
But that's still verytransactional, and the implicit
(04:53):
assumption is that you have tohave something of value to give,
which, as a woman, as a womanof color, I'm not an obvious
choice as someone you would wantto network with, just on the
face of it, and so I think I waschanneling a lot of my anger
around either beingunderestimated or erroneously
(05:17):
estimated as a non-valuablenetwork contact.
Network contact and reallyencouraging people to think less
about like networking is aboutwhat I can get from other people
, or even what I can give,necessarily, but more thinking
about networking in this largercontext of how information flows
(05:40):
within groups and what type ofinformation within groups and
what type of informationactually makes groups better.
One of the things thatcollectively intelligent groups
need are for people in the groupto be aware and appreciate each
(06:16):
other's strengths, and theissue is that how do you get
that information out there, thatexchange, who are really
capable of getting people toshare information with them that
they can then share with others?
But that's actually not justgood for the person who's being
bragged about, so they get a bigbenefit because they don't have
(06:37):
to self-promote themselves.
Somebody else is saying nicethings about them, so they don't
get that penalty that's oftenassociated with self-promotion.
Also, one of the things that Ithink many of us don't really
enjoy about networking eventseither, which is I don't know
how often you've had thisexperience you go to an event.
(06:58):
People want to know who do youwork for?
What do you do?
And then you have this likevery careful, I don't know if
you do this.
I do this where I'm looking tosee, okay, what is their
response to me telling them thatI'm a professor.
On the one hand they can belike, oh, okay, that's cool, you
don't think that I have reallyanything of value.
(07:19):
Or they're going to be like Iactually don't know anything
about professors, tell me moreabout that, which is also fine.
And then you have the people whoare like, ooh, what do you
teach?
But I think we all have thatkind of sense we have just given
someone else some informationabout us.
How are they evaluating that?
And that's how networking feels.
(07:41):
It's this constant sense of,okay, they're feeling me out for
whether or not I have value forthem, if I'm somebody who would
be good for them to know or not, and I just I really dislike
that.
So, going back to sponsorship,you have people in groups who
can get that information out ofothers without giving them the
(08:05):
ick.
You're not trying to value them, you're just trying to get
information because maybe atsome point that information is
going to be helpful to someoneelse, and so that removes some
of that evaluation part that Ireally am not a huge fan of in
traditional forms of networking.
But then they also end upsharing it with other people, so
(08:27):
that other people benefit fromknowing that these sorts of
talents, experiences, desires,aspirations exist, beneficial
(08:47):
connections for other people,and it's not because you
intentionally are trying toextract anything from anyone,
but you are actually doing aservice to the group, and so it
just that does get rewarded inways that do end up being good
for you but is not like thereason why you do it, and it's
an approach to networking thatfeels more appealing to me, and
(09:13):
so I thought it would be greatto share it with others.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Your approach immediately resonated with me.
That's why I reached out to you, because I hate the what do you
do conversation is souncomfortable and Francesca and
I talk about that.
That's why we do these meet andgreets.
Who are you as a human first?
What are you interesting foryou?
Tell me about your.
What are you passionate about?
What energizes you?
Those are more interestingthings to me.
So I really love that conceptof how can we get to know people
(09:40):
not to think about what we cando for each other, necessarily,
but just get to know them.
I pride myself on being aconnector and I always like,
when I'm five months down theroad, I hear something and I'm
like, oh yeah, I met this personwho does that.
Let me introduce you to.
It feels good to just do thatand make those connections and
that's feels like a healthiernetworking approach.
(10:00):
I really love that.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
Would you want to talk more about this concept of
sponsorship?
Because one of the things Ithink about is this difference
between sponsorship andmentorship, especially when you
get into organizations In acorporate environment, in an
academic environment.
A lot of times we have mentors,or sometimes we have sponsors,
and sometimes we have formalprograms about it, or sometimes
it's someone who just reallyknows how to work the system.
And I'm curious, if we startwith sponsorship, what do you
(10:37):
think is one of the biggestmisconceptions when you talk
about sponsorship?
Speaker 1 (10:42):
I would say the main one is that it is the same as
mentorship or it's justmentorship on steroids.
There's a lot of people whodon't understand that there's a
difference between the two, andthen even among those who do
understand there's a difference.
I think there's a sentimentthat sponsorship is just like
(11:03):
really strong mentorship andfrom my perspective, they are
categorically differentbehaviors because they act on
different targets.
And the key difference ismentors talk to you, but
sponsors talk about you.
So mentors are trying to changeyou, like your mentor is giving
(11:29):
you advice for coaching youthrough a weird situation or
giving you their perspective onhow they handled a similar
situation, and all of this is inthe service of either making
you a better performer, changinghow you behave or how you think
, whereas sponsors are notacting on the person they're
(11:52):
trying to support.
Their target is actually thesocial environment around their
protege.
They're trying to get otherpeople to see their proteges
differently.
One is about giving advice.
The other one is really aboutpersuasion and influence and
impression management, but forsomebody, else, not for yourself
(12:15):
.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
I've seen this so much in my tenure in corporate.
You have people that havesponsors.
They have people that willvouch for them in calibration
sessions.
Talk really well about themwhen there's new projects coming
up.
Oh yeah, you should talk toDave.
He's great at that.
Meanwhile there's 40 otherpeople that have that type of
capability and Dave gets it, orJane gets it or whoever else.
(12:37):
It's the person that has thesponsor that has access a lot of
times to projects, people,things, experiences, which then
can also go into actual currencylike promotions and bonuses and
that sort of thing too.
Yeah, that's right.
I'm curious, especially aroundwhen we think about
(12:57):
underrepresented groups.
Underrepresented groups arefamously like over-mentored
under-sponsored.
Yes, and I'm really curiousabout the long-term impacts of
that when you have a group thatis under-sponsored for a long
time.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
So, first of all, I sometimes take issue with those
findings in the sense that whenthat research was done they had
to get really like academic.
If that's not, I would love to.
I hear it, but I actually Ishould have answered.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Is that true?
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Is it true that people are Okay?
I should have answered is thattrue?
Is it true that people are hadmore mentors than men, but yet
men were getting promoted atfaster rates than were women?
Then they were saying well, thereason why men, even though
(14:07):
they have fewer mentors, theirmentors are actually sponsors,
and so men have sponsors andwomen have mentors.
And there's some other stuffthat goes into it, where they
essentially look at thehierarchical rank of who the
mentors are, men tend to havehigher ranked mentors.
When you look at women, who alsohave highly ranked mentors,
(14:30):
they actually do just as well asmen, suggesting that really the
issue isn't that women areover-mentored, it's that they're
mentors or sponsors, becausethey actually don't have a way
to distinguish between the two.
Their sponsor mentors areactually lower in power and so
(14:50):
that accounts for a bigdifference in promotion rates
and size of raises and thingslike that.
And this is actually anotherreason why, in that kind of
approach, people put a hugeemphasis on the notion that when
you're going out looking forsponsors, you need people who
are really powerful in theorganization to be your sponsor,
(15:14):
because organizational rank isactually the thing that matters,
and you'll see in my book thatI differ in my perspective on
that.
So this is not to say,obviously, that having powerful
sponsors doesn't matter itclearly does.
But what I worry about when westart saying so the way we fix
(15:36):
this is by giving everyone apowerful sponsor or by getting
everyone to look for powerfulsponsors is that we're
essentially giving a pass to allthe people who don't see
themselves as having a lot ofpower, when in reality I think
there's a lot normal people,mere human beings, can do for
(15:57):
each other when it comes tosponsorship.
So the other part of theequation is that people aren't
differentiating betweendifferent types of sponsorship.
And so in my own research,where I actually ask people like
what specifically are you doingwhen you sponsor, it's not that
(16:18):
women get less sponsorship,it's they get a different type
that, like men, get much more ofthat kind of behind the scenes,
vouching for kind ofsponsorship scenes, vouching for
kind of sponsorship, whereaswomen get softer versions, where
they do get talked up a littlebit, but again, not to the
(16:38):
extent that people are countingthe table and getting them the
opportunities.
People say nice things aboutwomen, but they don't
necessarily try to put womeninto those highly visible
opportunities.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Yeah, no, I appreciate the distinction.
What are the types ofsponsorship?
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Yeah.
So I like to differentiatebetween, basically, do people
already know you or not, and areyou trying to increase how
positively other people areseeing you, or are you trying to
decrease how negatively peopleare seeing you, or are you
trying to decrease hownegatively people are seeing you
?
We call it a two by two.
You've got these quadrants.
(17:16):
So if nobody knows you, it'sreally easy for sponsors to try
and create to essentially createother people's impressions of
you.
So that's creation.
Confirming is another one.
Confirming is actually theeasiest.
Other people already know whoyou are.
They already think you're great.
You're just kind of like addingmore gravy to the dish.
(17:41):
So this really positiveimpression is maintained or
enhanced.
The best sponsors actually arepeople who start super early.
It's not that they identifypeople who are obviously good
and just keep on confirming.
That's one approach.
Really risk-averse sponsorswill probably do that.
They just look for the surething and then they back that
(18:02):
horse Right.
But if you're a reallyintentional sponsor, what you
should be doing is essentiallycreating positive atmospherics
around someone who other peopleare not already aware of and
then, once you get more data onthem, you can keep on confirming
(18:23):
and confirming and then thatjust ends up snowballing into a
really positive careertrajectory a really positive
career trajectory.
So starting earlier is somethingthat I think is really
important that people miss outon.
So there's creating andconfirming, and then you have
the negative side, which ispeople don't know who my person
(18:45):
is.
I'm worried they're going tohave a negative impression.
So I'm going to essentially tryand remove potential issues
before they even become a thing.
An example of this would be Melwants to put Francesca on a
project that I know is totallydead end.
Nobody knows about Francescayet.
(19:05):
She's super junior.
She just entered into theorganization, so it'd be really
easy for me to like just give upFrancesca as a sacrificial lamb
.
It's happened before.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
We've all been there.
We've all been there.
I'm like it's just verypersonal right now.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
But instead, if you had a sponsor who was really
looking out for you, they'd belike no, francesca is not a good
fit for that or she doesn'thave capacity for that.
I have her working on somethingelse, so find somebody else.
That's preventing.
You're forecasting into thefuture.
This could come back to notlook good for your protege, and
(19:43):
so you're trying to make surethat something bad doesn't
happen.
So I talk about minority reportin the book.
It's like pre-cog Okay, we'regoing to prevent the crime from
even occurring.
And then we have protectionwhich is the one that I think a
lot of people also think of whenthey think about sponsorship is
people are saying negativethings about your protege.
(20:06):
A negative impression exists,and now you're trying to
mitigate that, you're trying toneutralize this negative
impression so that it doesn'tcome to harm your protege.
So this is the kind of thingwhere, like you, have people in
the back room who are like Idon't agree with how this person
(20:28):
is being characterized.
That is not my experience fromworking with them and, like all
these projects, the informationyou're talking about over here
is not consistent with theinformation I have.
So let's find a way toreconcile these two perspectives
.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
I feel like I've been in all of those situations and
someone's probably done that forme and someone's probably done
that for me.
These feel like very commonthings that you can experience
as a peer, as a boss, as anemployee, on both sides of the
coin.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
That's the other thing that I think is really
interesting is that a lot ofpeople are capable of
recognizing when they've beensponsored, although sometimes
you also have the stories ofpeople who didn't know that they
had a sponsor until like waylater, after they've become
super successful.
And then they meet someone andthat someone is I've had my eye
(21:19):
on you for 15 years now, butI've been talking about you to
other people and you're likewait, what?
Yeah, that's kind of creepy andalso thank you.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Yes exactly.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
So that's the other thing I think is hard about
telling people to go and findsponsors, this fixation on
really high power sponsors, andthen also telling people like
you should go out and find asponsor.
I'm never a fan of telling thepeople who are lower in power
(21:50):
that they're responsible forfixing inequalities or
inequities or things like that.
So I think partially I'm nothappy about that kind of
conclusion.
But the other part of it is,francesca, as you were saying,
many of us have probably donethese things for other people.
(22:11):
We have all sponsored others.
We just don't know it as such.
We haven't called it that, butwe all do it and we all are
capable of doing it, and soreally the book is my hope of
opening people's eyes to theidea that you already do these
things.
Now that you know about it, canyou be more intentional about
(22:33):
who you're going to do it forand how you're going to do it?
Because if we all become moreintentional about that, that's
going to be another way for usto start elevating women and
people of color and, to yourvery good point, the information
flow gets so much more robust.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
It's not what we traditionally think of as people
who know how to play the gameand they're winning.
It's no.
If we all do this, then all ofa sudden there's a really
virtuous information exchange.
Yeah, yeah, it's a workplaceI'd rather be a part of.
Yes, yeah, I love it.
I'm sure there's peoplelistening that are like I want
(23:11):
to be a better sponsor, whereverI'm planted.
Now I know that it doesn't needto be that I'm the VP of blah
blah blah and that's the onlyway I can be a sponsor.
I can be a sponsor right nowwith who I am, and I'm sure
there's also people that likedamn, I wish someone would
sponsor me.
So I want to take this fromboth angles of someone who wants
to be a sponsor.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
So my general prescription is just if you know
someone's good news, you shouldjust share it.
Share it for them, right,because one, the fact that they
felt comfortable enough with youto share that good news with
you is, like, already meaningful, because many of us are
socialized not to share our goodnews.
The person who is out sharingtheir good news and is like
(23:58):
unabashedly doing that they donot need your sponsorship.
You're already getting thatinformation out there but it's
the person who, offhandedly, isoh, yeah last week I won that
award and you're like nobodyelse knows about this.
Like why haven't you told people?
So, instead of saying whyhaven't you told people, because
it's obvious why they probablyhaven't told people, is yours
(24:25):
just like okay, how can I dropthat little nugget into all the
conversations that I'm going togo into?
Or if you are leading a meetingopening with I'm not sure
everybody knows, but Francescawon this award last week and so
let's all celebrate her.
Finding ways to drop positivepieces of information about
(24:45):
people already goes a huge waytoward being a sponsor.
So I call this good gossip inthe book.
A lot of us are socialized to belike oh, gossip bad.
And it's because when we thinkof gossip, we think of the
negative side.
Like you don'tized to be like,oh, gossip bad.
And it's because when we thinkof gossip, we think of the
negative side.
Like you don't want to begossiped about, because usually
(25:06):
the people who are gossipedabout are the people who have
broken some sort of social normand this is a group's way of
socially sanctioning them.
But at the same time, I like tothink about this as Yelp.
Why is Yelp useful?
If Yelp were only one and twostar reviews.
That would tell you where notto go, but it doesn't tell you
(25:30):
where to go.
You still need those four andfive star reviews to help you
decide where you want to go, soyou need both.
You decide where you want to go, so you need both.
We should actually be moreintentional about the positive
stuff that we can say about eachother.
The second tactic is be mindfulof opportunities, where you are
(25:53):
the one in control of who getsto go where.
So this is who gets invited tothe meeting, who gets invited to
lunch?
It's like anytime you're thedecision maker around.
Who gets to participate is anopportunity for sponsorship,
because one of the ways we canshape how people are seen is by
(26:17):
making them known to others, notjust in terms of us saying nice
things about them, but justgiving other people the
opportunity to see this person,and probably they're great and
will be impressive on their own,but they've just never had a
chance to be seen by otherpeople.
(26:39):
Those are the two low-h hangingfruit that I really want people
to focus on.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
And so powerful, even if people just made one move in
both of those directions thisweek.
You think about the compoundingeffect of that is huge.
My own life, when people everyonce in a while someone will
post about, like the pod orsomething that Mel has written
or I've written, or somethinglike that on LinkedIn unasked
just this is amazing, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Read it and it always justfeels so good because most
(27:06):
people are out here trying,trying their best, most people
show up to work or their craftor whatever they're doing, and
to just have someone recognizethem and be seen without being
asked even in the most simpleway, is just.
It's fuel for a week.
Information, yeah, but just thejuju is.
Oh, my God, thank God.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
No, that's right.
That's right.
I think being seen is somethingthat we all want, obviously
being seen for the right reasons.
We want it for ourselves and wehave the ability to do it for
others.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
When you imagine workplace cultures where
everyone is thinking aboutopening doors, what's one norm
that needs to maybe go away tosupport?
Speaker 1 (27:49):
that this like hyper fixation on high performers, as
opposed to trying to use ways toidentify high what I would say
like catalysts or likeaccelerators.
So these are the people whomaybe they're not the highest
performer on these other metricsthat are easily measurable, but
(28:11):
that they bring something elseto the team.
And I see sponsors as beingthat you don't have to be the
best employee to be a greatsponsor, but you are doing a
huge service to the group.
And if you don't reward peoplefor engaging in sponsorship,
then it becomes this thing thatpeople just do for out of the
(28:34):
goodness of their heart.
To get to that culture ofsponsorship that, like Francesca
, is so excited for, you need toreward the people who can see
the possibilities in others andto make them more visible to the
rest of the group.
So it's not just rewarding thatperson who then goes on to
(28:57):
become a great performer, butit's also rewarding the person
who noticed them and made thatpossible.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
All right, roslyn, we're going to do a little
wrapping round.
How are you feeling about it?
Are you game Feeling awesome?
Okay, okay, we're going to jumpright in.
It's 2030.
Loaded question.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
What's work?
Speaker 2 (29:31):
going to look like it's going to look like it looks
now.
Yeah, we think the same.
What's one thing about?
Speaker 1 (29:38):
corporate culture you'd like to see just die
already.
Oh, meetings without agendas.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Yes, thank you.
The meeting.
That could have been an email,right?
Yes, exactly what's on yourplaylist right now?
What music are you listening to?
Oh, before we started recording.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
I mentioned I have an 11-year-old and an 8-year-old,
so I was recently introduced toK-pop demon hunters.
Even when my kids aren't around, I listen to it as well.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
I will tell you, I've had this song free on repeat
all week long.
I love it, I love it From that?
Speaker 2 (30:11):
what do you think the greatest opportunity most
organizations are missing out onright now?
Speaker 1 (30:17):
They don't talk enough to their customers, and I
don't even mean that in termsof making their products or
their services.
They need to be doing a betterjob of communicating how what
they do has an impact on theworld and bringing that back to
their employees.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Yeah, that's a good point.
What are you reading right now?
I shouldn't be embarrassed.
What are you reading right now?
Speaker 1 (30:38):
I shouldn't be embarrassed, but I am a little
bit embarrassed.
I just finished Onyx Storm, sothat's the fourth wing Rebecca
Yaros dragon romantic series.
I can't handle real lifeanymore, so I have to resort to
(30:58):
fantasy.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
As a fellow ACOTAR fan, I get it.
Who do you really admire?
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Oh, that's a really good one.
There are several women in mylife I really admire.
Some of them are my colleagues.
So actually right next door tome is Anita Woolley.
If you've ever heard the termof collective intelligence, she
is the one who put that term onthe map.
Collective intelligence isbasically IQ, but for teams, and
(31:29):
so she has pioneered that workand I don't respect her because
of that work.
Actually, I respect her becauseshe does that work and she's an
amazing mother of three kidsand she's an amazing colleague
and a friend.
She's incredibly principled inhow she lives her life.
I just think she's like asuperwoman and just such an
(31:52):
inspiration.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
It's so nice.
Now I'm going to go down arabbit hole on collective
intelligence.
It's so nice when people aredoing really amazing things.
Then behind them they're justreally good people.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
It's nice to hear what's a piece of advice you
would want everyone to know Dostuff that your future self
would be thanking you for.
I really love that.
I think that's sound advice,right?
Make yourself proud when youlook back at this moment.
What were you really going to?
You really what's?
What's a way people can stay intouch with you and your work,
(32:25):
because it's so incrediblyimportant, you can go to my
website.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Rosalind chow to find out more about me.
I do post about other people'swork on LinkedIn.
I do sometimes post aboutmyself there, but mostly if
you're really interested inlearning about cutting edge cool
social science research, Iwould be a good follow.
Followed.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Thanks for joining us today.
Thank you for having me on.
This was really great.
Thank you, great Thank you.
This episode was produced,edited and all things by us,
myself, mel Plett and FrancescaRanieri.
(33:18):
Our music is by Pink Zebra andif you like this, please rate
and subscribe.
We'd really appreciate it.
That helps keep us going.
Take care, friends.
All right.
Bye friends, bye friend.
My general prescription is just if you know
someone's good news, you shouldjust share it.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Hey friends, welcome back to your work, friends,
where we break down the now andnext of work so you stay ahead.
Today we sat down withorganizational psychologist
Rosalyn Chow to talk aboutsomething that we know quietly
makes or breaks your career.
Rosalyn is a professor oforganizational behavioral theory
at the Tepper School ofBusiness and she's also
(00:42):
affiliated with the Social andDecision Sciences Group at
Detroit College.
She is a faculty director ofCLIMB, offered through the
Tepper School of Business, whichis in partnership with Deloitte
, and she is the foundingfaculty director for the
Executive Leadership Academy.
So she knows a thing or twoabout this topic.
Francesca, what do you think?
Speaker 3 (01:02):
To me, rosalyn is like one of the experts, if not
the expert, on sponsorship.
As Rosalyn puts it, mentorstalk to you, but sponsors talk
about you and they really shapethe room when you're not in it.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Yeah, what I really loved about this conversation is
the simple, tactical, practicalthings that people can do right
away.
She helped us map whatsponsorship can be.
You're also going to hear abouthow this actually helps teams
and what she calls collectiveintelligence.
Teams are literally gettingsmarter when we make each
(01:36):
other's strengths visibleamongst each other.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
In today's episode, you're going to walk away with
three key things One, two movesyou can do this week to share a
colleague's good news and invitesomeone under the radar into
the room where it happens.
Two, how to ask for sponsorshipwithout the cringe, the ick we
all might feel.
And three, why leaders shouldreward the people who spot
talent and open doors, not justthe high performers.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
It's really thoughtful.
Rosalyn is awesome.
All right, let's open somedoors.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Here's our conversation with Rosalyn Chow.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
All right, I'd love to get into the book.
It's so good.
What inspired you to write theDoors you Can Open?
Was there a catalyst that youwere like I have to get this out
now to write the Doors you CanOpen?
Was there a?
Speaker 1 (02:25):
catalyst that you were like I have to get this out
now.
I wouldn't say that there is acatalyst.
If anything, I think I waspretty resistant to the idea of
writing a book.
I started teaching in thisexecutive education program.
I talk about this a little bitin the book and one of the
things that was reallygratifying about making that
change is that people would comeup to me after I would do
(02:47):
programming and they would wantto know if there were other
resources that I could pointthem to.
And the reality was that Ididn't think that anybody had
said what I was thinking in theway that I wanted it to come out
.
So then I figured I should goahead and provide this resource
(03:08):
that I wish I could give topeople.
So that was really the impetus.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Yeah, it's incredibly important and, by the way, I
was at a networking event lastnight full of women talking
about credibility and they allhad that same challenge.
Does anyone care about what Ineed to say?
Yes, you have very valuablethings to add to the world.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
I got over it enough to actually produce the book.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Yeah, I'm glad you did.
It's so good.
And this is not a networkingbook.
You and I talked about thatwhen we initially met.
Instead of networking, what doyou want people to expect
instead when they pick up yourbook?
Speaker 1 (03:45):
I don't know that I would say it's not a networking
book.
I think it's more like ananti-networking book, in the
sense that it is aboutnetworking, but it is about
trying to change how we network.
So it's not about networkingbetter.
The book is about sponsorship,how we elevate other people, and
(04:06):
through elevating other peoplewe actually end up elevating
ourselves, and what thatsuggests is a reorientation
toward networking to bedifferent than, I think, the way
most of us have been taught tothink about it, which is that we
network because there arethings that we need from other
people, and so we go out to findpeople who have these resources
(04:30):
and then we try to convincethem that we should have a
relationship with them so thatthey will give us what we need.
That's a very cynical,strategic way of thinking about
networking.
I think people often are likeit should be win-win right,
where it's not that you're justtaking from them, you're giving
them something too.
But that's still verytransactional, and the implicit
(04:53):
assumption is that you have tohave something of value to give,
which, as a woman, as a womanof color, I'm not an obvious
choice as someone you would wantto network with, just on the
face of it, and so I think I waschanneling a lot of my anger
around either beingunderestimated or erroneously
(05:17):
estimated as a non-valuablenetwork contact.
Network contact and reallyencouraging people to think less
about like networking is aboutwhat I can get from other people
, or even what I can give,necessarily, but more thinking
about networking in this largercontext of how information flows
(05:40):
within groups and what type ofinformation within groups and
what type of informationactually makes groups better.
One of the things thatcollectively intelligent groups
need are for people in the groupto be aware and appreciate each
(06:16):
other's strengths, and theissue is that how do you get
that information out there, thatexchange, who are really
capable of getting people toshare information with them that
they can then share with others?
But that's actually not justgood for the person who's being
bragged about, so they get a bigbenefit because they don't have
(06:37):
to self-promote themselves.
Somebody else is saying nicethings about them, so they don't
get that penalty that's oftenassociated with self-promotion.
Also, one of the things that Ithink many of us don't really
enjoy about networking eventseither, which is I don't know
how often you've had thisexperience you go to an event.
(06:58):
People want to know who do youwork for?
What do you do?
And then you have this likevery careful, I don't know if
you do this.
I do this where I'm looking tosee, okay, what is their
response to me telling them thatI'm a professor.
On the one hand they can belike, oh, okay, that's cool, you
don't think that I have reallyanything of value.
(07:19):
Or they're going to be like Iactually don't know anything
about professors, tell me moreabout that, which is also fine.
And then you have the people whoare like, ooh, what do you
teach?
But I think we all have thatkind of sense we have just given
someone else some informationabout us.
How are they evaluating that?
And that's how networking feels.
(07:41):
It's this constant sense of,okay, they're feeling me out for
whether or not I have value forthem, if I'm somebody who would
be good for them to know or not, and I just I really dislike
that.
So, going back to sponsorship,you have people in groups who
can get that information out ofothers without giving them the
(08:05):
ick.
You're not trying to value them, you're just trying to get
information because maybe atsome point that information is
going to be helpful to someoneelse, and so that removes some
of that evaluation part that Ireally am not a huge fan of in
traditional forms of networking.
But then they also end upsharing it with other people, so
(08:27):
that other people benefit fromknowing that these sorts of
talents, experiences, desires,aspirations exist, beneficial
(08:47):
connections for other people,and it's not because you
intentionally are trying toextract anything from anyone,
but you are actually doing aservice to the group, and so it
just that does get rewarded inways that do end up being good
for you but is not like thereason why you do it, and it's
an approach to networking thatfeels more appealing to me, and
(09:13):
so I thought it would be greatto share it with others.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Your approach immediately resonated with me.
That's why I reached out to you, because I hate the what do you
do conversation is souncomfortable and Francesca and
I talk about that.
That's why we do these meet andgreets.
Who are you as a human first?
What are you interesting foryou?
Tell me about your.
What are you passionate about?
What energizes you?
Those are more interestingthings to me.
So I really love that conceptof how can we get to know people
(09:40):
not to think about what we cando for each other, necessarily,
but just get to know them.
I pride myself on being aconnector and I always like,
when I'm five months down theroad, I hear something and I'm
like, oh yeah, I met this personwho does that.
Let me introduce you to.
It feels good to just do thatand make those connections and
that's feels like a healthiernetworking approach.
(10:00):
I really love that.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
Would you want to talk more about this concept of
sponsorship?
Because one of the things Ithink about is this difference
between sponsorship andmentorship, especially when you
get into organizations In acorporate environment, in an
academic environment.
A lot of times we have mentors,or sometimes we have sponsors,
and sometimes we have formalprograms about it, or sometimes
it's someone who just reallyknows how to work the system.
And I'm curious, if we startwith sponsorship, what do you
(10:37):
think is one of the biggestmisconceptions when you talk
about sponsorship?
Speaker 1 (10:42):
I would say the main one is that it is the same as
mentorship or it's justmentorship on steroids.
There's a lot of people whodon't understand that there's a
difference between the two, andthen even among those who do
understand there's a difference.
I think there's a sentimentthat sponsorship is just like
(11:03):
really strong mentorship andfrom my perspective, they are
categorically differentbehaviors because they act on
different targets.
And the key difference ismentors talk to you, but
sponsors talk about you.
So mentors are trying to changeyou, like your mentor is giving
(11:29):
you advice for coaching youthrough a weird situation or
giving you their perspective onhow they handled a similar
situation, and all of this is inthe service of either making
you a better performer, changinghow you behave or how you think
, whereas sponsors are notacting on the person they're
(11:52):
trying to support.
Their target is actually thesocial environment around their
protege.
They're trying to get otherpeople to see their proteges
differently.
One is about giving advice.
The other one is really aboutpersuasion and influence and
impression management, but forsomebody, else, not for yourself
(12:15):
.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
I've seen this so much in my tenure in corporate.
You have people that havesponsors.
They have people that willvouch for them in calibration
sessions.
Talk really well about themwhen there's new projects coming
up.
Oh yeah, you should talk toDave.
He's great at that.
Meanwhile there's 40 otherpeople that have that type of
capability and Dave gets it, orJane gets it or whoever else.
(12:37):
It's the person that has thesponsor that has access a lot of
times to projects, people,things, experiences, which then
can also go into actual currencylike promotions and bonuses and
that sort of thing too.
Yeah, that's right.
I'm curious, especially aroundwhen we think about
(12:57):
underrepresented groups.
Underrepresented groups arefamously like over-mentored
under-sponsored.
Yes, and I'm really curiousabout the long-term impacts of
that when you have a group thatis under-sponsored for a long
time.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
So, first of all, I sometimes take issue with those
findings in the sense that whenthat research was done they had
to get really like academic.
If that's not, I would love to.
I hear it, but I actually Ishould have answered.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Is that true?
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Is it true that people are Okay?
I should have answered is thattrue?
Is it true that people are hadmore mentors than men, but yet
men were getting promoted atfaster rates than were women?
Then they were saying well, thereason why men, even though
(14:07):
they have fewer mentors, theirmentors are actually sponsors,
and so men have sponsors andwomen have mentors.
And there's some other stuffthat goes into it, where they
essentially look at thehierarchical rank of who the
mentors are, men tend to havehigher ranked mentors.
When you look at women, who alsohave highly ranked mentors,
(14:30):
they actually do just as well asmen, suggesting that really the
issue isn't that women areover-mentored, it's that they're
mentors or sponsors, becausethey actually don't have a way
to distinguish between the two.
Their sponsor mentors areactually lower in power and so
(14:50):
that accounts for a bigdifference in promotion rates
and size of raises and thingslike that.
And this is actually anotherreason why, in that kind of
approach, people put a hugeemphasis on the notion that when
you're going out looking forsponsors, you need people who
are really powerful in theorganization to be your sponsor,
(15:14):
because organizational rank isactually the thing that matters,
and you'll see in my book thatI differ in my perspective on
that.
So this is not to say,obviously, that having powerful
sponsors doesn't matter itclearly does.
But what I worry about when westart saying so the way we fix
(15:36):
this is by giving everyone apowerful sponsor or by getting
everyone to look for powerfulsponsors is that we're
essentially giving a pass to allthe people who don't see
themselves as having a lot ofpower, when in reality I think
there's a lot normal people,mere human beings, can do for
(15:57):
each other when it comes tosponsorship.
So the other part of theequation is that people aren't
differentiating betweendifferent types of sponsorship.
And so in my own research,where I actually ask people like
what specifically are you doingwhen you sponsor, it's not that
(16:18):
women get less sponsorship,it's they get a different type
that, like men, get much more ofthat kind of behind the scenes,
vouching for kind ofsponsorship scenes, vouching for
kind of sponsorship, whereaswomen get softer versions, where
they do get talked up a littlebit, but again, not to the
(16:38):
extent that people are countingthe table and getting them the
opportunities.
People say nice things aboutwomen, but they don't
necessarily try to put womeninto those highly visible
opportunities.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Yeah, no, I appreciate the distinction.
What are the types ofsponsorship?
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Yeah.
So I like to differentiatebetween, basically, do people
already know you or not, and areyou trying to increase how
positively other people areseeing you, or are you trying to
decrease how negatively peopleare seeing you, or are you
trying to decrease hownegatively people are seeing you
?
We call it a two by two.
You've got these quadrants.
(17:16):
So if nobody knows you, it'sreally easy for sponsors to try
and create to essentially createother people's impressions of
you.
So that's creation.
Confirming is another one.
Confirming is actually theeasiest.
Other people already know whoyou are.
They already think you're great.
You're just kind of like addingmore gravy to the dish.
(17:41):
So this really positiveimpression is maintained or
enhanced.
The best sponsors actually arepeople who start super early.
It's not that they identifypeople who are obviously good
and just keep on confirming.
That's one approach.
Really risk-averse sponsorswill probably do that.
They just look for the surething and then they back that
(18:02):
horse Right.
But if you're a reallyintentional sponsor, what you
should be doing is essentiallycreating positive atmospherics
around someone who other peopleare not already aware of and
then, once you get more data onthem, you can keep on confirming
(18:23):
and confirming and then thatjust ends up snowballing into a
really positive careertrajectory a really positive
career trajectory.
So starting earlier is somethingthat I think is really
important that people miss outon.
So there's creating andconfirming, and then you have
the negative side, which ispeople don't know who my person
(18:45):
is.
I'm worried they're going tohave a negative impression.
So I'm going to essentially tryand remove potential issues
before they even become a thing.
An example of this would be Melwants to put Francesca on a
project that I know is totallydead end.
Nobody knows about Francescayet.
(19:05):
She's super junior.
She just entered into theorganization, so it'd be really
easy for me to like just give upFrancesca as a sacrificial lamb
.
It's happened before.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
We've all been there.
We've all been there.
I'm like it's just verypersonal right now.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
But instead, if you had a sponsor who was really
looking out for you, they'd belike no, francesca is not a good
fit for that or she doesn'thave capacity for that.
I have her working on somethingelse, so find somebody else.
That's preventing.
You're forecasting into thefuture.
This could come back to notlook good for your protege, and
(19:43):
so you're trying to make surethat something bad doesn't
happen.
So I talk about minority reportin the book.
It's like pre-cog Okay, we'regoing to prevent the crime from
even occurring.
And then we have protectionwhich is the one that I think a
lot of people also think of whenthey think about sponsorship is
people are saying negativethings about your protege.
(20:06):
A negative impression exists,and now you're trying to
mitigate that, you're trying toneutralize this negative
impression so that it doesn'tcome to harm your protege.
So this is the kind of thingwhere, like you, have people in
the back room who are like Idon't agree with how this person
(20:28):
is being characterized.
That is not my experience fromworking with them and, like all
these projects, the informationyou're talking about over here
is not consistent with theinformation I have.
So let's find a way toreconcile these two perspectives
.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
I feel like I've been in all of those situations and
someone's probably done that forme and someone's probably done
that for me.
These feel like very commonthings that you can experience
as a peer, as a boss, as anemployee, on both sides of the
coin.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
That's the other thing that I think is really
interesting is that a lot ofpeople are capable of
recognizing when they've beensponsored, although sometimes
you also have the stories ofpeople who didn't know that they
had a sponsor until like waylater, after they've become
super successful.
And then they meet someone andthat someone is I've had my eye
(21:19):
on you for 15 years now, butI've been talking about you to
other people and you're likewait, what?
Yeah, that's kind of creepy andalso thank you.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Yes exactly.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
So that's the other thing I think is hard about
telling people to go and findsponsors, this fixation on
really high power sponsors, andthen also telling people like
you should go out and find asponsor.
I'm never a fan of telling thepeople who are lower in power
(21:50):
that they're responsible forfixing inequalities or
inequities or things like that.
So I think partially I'm nothappy about that kind of
conclusion.
But the other part of it is,francesca, as you were saying,
many of us have probably donethese things for other people.
(22:11):
We have all sponsored others.
We just don't know it as such.
We haven't called it that, butwe all do it and we all are
capable of doing it, and soreally the book is my hope of
opening people's eyes to theidea that you already do these
things.
Now that you know about it, canyou be more intentional about
(22:33):
who you're going to do it forand how you're going to do it?
Because if we all become moreintentional about that, that's
going to be another way for usto start elevating women and
people of color and, to yourvery good point, the information
flow gets so much more robust.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
It's not what we traditionally think of as people
who know how to play the gameand they're winning.
It's no.
If we all do this, then all ofa sudden there's a really
virtuous information exchange.
Yeah, yeah, it's a workplaceI'd rather be a part of.
Yes, yeah, I love it.
I'm sure there's peoplelistening that are like I want
(23:11):
to be a better sponsor, whereverI'm planted.
Now I know that it doesn't needto be that I'm the VP of blah
blah blah and that's the onlyway I can be a sponsor.
I can be a sponsor right nowwith who I am, and I'm sure
there's also people that likedamn, I wish someone would
sponsor me.
So I want to take this fromboth angles of someone who wants
to be a sponsor.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
So my general prescription is just if you know
someone's good news, you shouldjust share it.
Share it for them, right,because one, the fact that they
felt comfortable enough with youto share that good news with
you is, like, already meaningful, because many of us are
socialized not to share our goodnews.
The person who is out sharingtheir good news and is like
(23:58):
unabashedly doing that they donot need your sponsorship.
You're already getting thatinformation out there but it's
the person who, offhandedly, isoh, yeah last week I won that
award and you're like nobodyelse knows about this.
Like why haven't you told people?
So, instead of saying whyhaven't you told people, because
it's obvious why they probablyhaven't told people, is yours
(24:25):
just like okay, how can I dropthat little nugget into all the
conversations that I'm going togo into?
Or if you are leading a meetingopening with I'm not sure
everybody knows, but Francescawon this award last week and so
let's all celebrate her.
Finding ways to drop positivepieces of information about
(24:45):
people already goes a huge waytoward being a sponsor.
So I call this good gossip inthe book.
A lot of us are socialized to belike oh, gossip bad.
And it's because when we thinkof gossip, we think of the
negative side.
Like you don'tized to be like,oh, gossip bad.
And it's because when we thinkof gossip, we think of the
negative side.
Like you don't want to begossiped about, because usually
(25:06):
the people who are gossipedabout are the people who have
broken some sort of social normand this is a group's way of
socially sanctioning them.
But at the same time, I like tothink about this as Yelp.
Why is Yelp useful?
If Yelp were only one and twostar reviews.
That would tell you where notto go, but it doesn't tell you
(25:30):
where to go.
You still need those four andfive star reviews to help you
decide where you want to go, soyou need both.
You decide where you want to go, so you need both.
We should actually be moreintentional about the positive
stuff that we can say about eachother.
The second tactic is be mindfulof opportunities, where you are
(25:53):
the one in control of who getsto go where.
So this is who gets invited tothe meeting, who gets invited to
lunch?
It's like anytime you're thedecision maker around.
Who gets to participate is anopportunity for sponsorship,
because one of the ways we canshape how people are seen is by
(26:17):
making them known to others, notjust in terms of us saying nice
things about them, but justgiving other people the
opportunity to see this person,and probably they're great and
will be impressive on their own,but they've just never had a
chance to be seen by otherpeople.
(26:39):
Those are the two low-h hangingfruit that I really want people
to focus on.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
And so powerful, even if people just made one move in
both of those directions thisweek.
You think about the compoundingeffect of that is huge.
My own life, when people everyonce in a while someone will
post about, like the pod orsomething that Mel has written
or I've written, or somethinglike that on LinkedIn unasked
just this is amazing, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Read it and it always justfeels so good because most
(27:06):
people are out here trying,trying their best, most people
show up to work or their craftor whatever they're doing, and
to just have someone recognizethem and be seen without being
asked even in the most simpleway, is just.
It's fuel for a week.
Information, yeah, but just thejuju is.
Oh, my God, thank God.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
No, that's right.
That's right.
I think being seen is somethingthat we all want, obviously
being seen for the right reasons.
We want it for ourselves and wehave the ability to do it for
others.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
When you imagine workplace cultures where
everyone is thinking aboutopening doors, what's one norm
that needs to maybe go away tosupport?
Speaker 1 (27:49):
that this like hyper fixation on high performers, as
opposed to trying to use ways toidentify high what I would say
like catalysts or likeaccelerators.
So these are the people whomaybe they're not the highest
performer on these other metricsthat are easily measurable, but
(28:11):
that they bring something elseto the team.
And I see sponsors as beingthat you don't have to be the
best employee to be a greatsponsor, but you are doing a
huge service to the group.
And if you don't reward peoplefor engaging in sponsorship,
then it becomes this thing thatpeople just do for out of the
(28:34):
goodness of their heart.
To get to that culture ofsponsorship that, like Francesca
, is so excited for, you need toreward the people who can see
the possibilities in others andto make them more visible to the
rest of the group.
So it's not just rewarding thatperson who then goes on to
(28:57):
become a great performer, butit's also rewarding the person
who noticed them and made thatpossible.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
All right, roslyn, we're going to do a little
wrapping round.
How are you feeling about it?
Are you game Feeling awesome?
Okay, okay, we're going to jumpright in.
It's 2030.
Loaded question.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
What's work?
Speaker 2 (29:31):
going to look like it's going to look like it looks
now.
Yeah, we think the same.
What's one thing about?
Speaker 1 (29:38):
corporate culture you'd like to see just die
already.
Oh, meetings without agendas.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Yes, thank you.
The meeting.
That could have been an email,right?
Yes, exactly what's on yourplaylist right now?
What music are you listening to?
Oh, before we started recording.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
I mentioned I have an 11-year-old and an 8-year-old,
so I was recently introduced toK-pop demon hunters.
Even when my kids aren't around, I listen to it as well.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
I will tell you, I've had this song free on repeat
all week long.
I love it, I love it From that?
Speaker 2 (30:11):
what do you think the greatest opportunity most
organizations are missing out onright now?
Speaker 1 (30:17):
They don't talk enough to their customers, and I
don't even mean that in termsof making their products or
their services.
They need to be doing a betterjob of communicating how what
they do has an impact on theworld and bringing that back to
their employees.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Yeah, that's a good point.
What are you reading right now?
I shouldn't be embarrassed.
What are you reading right now?
Speaker 1 (30:38):
I shouldn't be embarrassed, but I am a little
bit embarrassed.
I just finished Onyx Storm, sothat's the fourth wing Rebecca
Yaros dragon romantic series.
I can't handle real lifeanymore, so I have to resort to
(30:58):
fantasy.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
As a fellow ACOTAR fan, I get it.
Who do you really admire?
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Oh, that's a really good one.
There are several women in mylife I really admire.
Some of them are my colleagues.
So actually right next door tome is Anita Woolley.
If you've ever heard the termof collective intelligence, she
is the one who put that term onthe map.
Collective intelligence isbasically IQ, but for teams, and
(31:29):
so she has pioneered that workand I don't respect her because
of that work.
Actually, I respect her becauseshe does that work and she's an
amazing mother of three kidsand she's an amazing colleague
and a friend.
She's incredibly principled inhow she lives her life.
I just think she's like asuperwoman and just such an
(31:52):
inspiration.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
It's so nice.
Now I'm going to go down arabbit hole on collective
intelligence.
It's so nice when people aredoing really amazing things.
Then behind them they're justreally good people.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
It's nice to hear what's a piece of advice you
would want everyone to know Dostuff that your future self
would be thanking you for.
I really love that.
I think that's sound advice,right?
Make yourself proud when youlook back at this moment.
What were you really going to?
You really what's?
What's a way people can stay intouch with you and your work,
(32:25):
because it's so incrediblyimportant, you can go to my
website.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Rosalind chow to find out more about me.
I do post about other people'swork on LinkedIn.
I do sometimes post aboutmyself there, but mostly if
you're really interested inlearning about cutting edge cool
social science research, Iwould be a good follow.
Followed.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Thanks for joining us today.
Thank you for having me on.
This was really great.
Thank you, great Thank you.
This episode was produced,edited and all things by us,
myself, mel Plett and FrancescaRanieri.
(33:18):
Our music is by Pink Zebra andif you like this, please rate
and subscribe.
We'd really appreciate it.
That helps keep us going.
Take care, friends.
All right.
Bye friends, bye friend.
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