August 19, 2025 • 37 mins
The future of HR isn’t just about people, it’s about how business, technology, and strategy come together.
In this episode of Your Work Friends, we sit down with JP Elliott, host of The Future of HR Podcast and creator of the Next Gen HR Accelerator, to talk about how HR is evolving inside the world’s biggest companies. JP has partnered with leaders at Amazon, American Express, Verizon, and more, and he brings a clear perspective on what it takes to build HR functions that win.
We cover:
- Why the best HR leaders think like business leaders first
- The rise of AI in HR—and why bolting it on isn’t enough
- The case for splitting HR into compliance vs. business enablement
- How companies like Moderna and ServiceNow are building AI-first HR functions
- The biggest mistake organizations make when it comes to HR strategy and execution
- The advice every CHRO stepping into the role needs right now
If you’re serious about the future of work, HR transformation, or building HR as a true business driver, this episode will push your thinking forward.
Disclaimer: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered professional advice. We are not responsible for any losses, damages, or liabilities that may arise from the use of this podcast. The views expressed in this podcast may not be those of the host or the management.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
HR's role is to ensure the organization has the
talent and capabilities to win.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to your Work, friends, where we're breaking
down the now and next of work soyou get ahead.
I'm Francesca Ranieri.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
And I'm Mel Platt.
Mel, we just had a conversationwith JP Elliott.
We did yeah, we love JP.
Over here at your Work Friends.
He is a friend of the pod andwe are a friend of his the
Future of HR podcast, andFrancesca and I, week after week
, we're talking about the nowand next of work.
We're very interested in whatwork is going to look like, what
it looks like, where it's going.
Jp is very focused on settingup HR organizations, which are
(00:54):
the base of every successfulplace.
Right To be prepared for thatas well, like helping develop
that next generation of HRleaders, and we thought this was
prime time for us to connectand talk about what's happening
with work.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
If you don't know, JP Elliott hosts the Future of HR
podcast where he's talking toexecutives and CHROs from folks
like Amazon, American Express,Verizon.
He also runs the NextGen HRAccelerator which, to Mel's very
good point, builds thoseNextGen HR skills of the folks
that are running HR.
If you're wanting to learn fromsomebody that is talking with
(01:33):
people, learning from peopleupskilling people in HR all day,
every day, you want to talk toJP.
We're stoked to have him onthis week.
We were also very stoked totalk to him on his podcast.
We're doing a little pod swapthis week, friends, so go over
to the Future of HR and you canhear Mel and I talk about our
latest research on reciprocalwork, the boss-employer
(01:55):
relationship, and talking aboutthe strategy work that we do.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Yeah, with that folks .
Here's our friend JP, from theoutside.
(02:20):
You're a host of the Future ofHR podcast.
You're an advisor to a numberof organizations.
What's your story?
What caused you to launch theFuture of HR?
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Yeah, for me it's always been about impact, and it
was about 2022 when I startedgetting to podcasts, which was
super late in the game.
They've been around for a while.
My wife and I started listeningto podcasts and I was like, let
me check out these HR podcasts,because first we're listening
to SmartList and other ones thatare more popular and probably
better than mine, of course.
(02:51):
But I listened to the HRpodcast and I was like, huh,
there's a gap in the market.
I don't think we really areleading the story.
I feel like we had anopportunity to do two things.
One, how amazing it would be ifI was 25 years old and early in
my career, I could listen tosome of these amazing people
that I've worked with andlearned from throughout my years
(03:12):
, whether it's a Mark Efron,chros like Holly Tyson or
whoever and I've had a reallygood network.
And so I was like, gosh, whatif I did a podcast?
And it was really about what Iwanted to hear when I was 25
years old and starting my career, and that was it.
And so I bought a microphonesame microphone I'm talking to
you right now.
On it arrived through Amazon,my wife said what is this and
why did you buy a microphone?
And I said, oh, that's myaccountability partner.
(03:33):
I'm starting a podcast calledthe Future of HR and I've owned
thefutureofhrcom probably for 15, 20 years and never done
anything with it, done anythingwith it.
And so it just became the timeto do it.
And when I committed tolaunching it, I said you guys
know there's something calledPodfade.
A lot of people quit after awhile because actually
podcasting is actually harderthan it looks to produce a good
(03:54):
podcast.
And I said I'm going to do 52podcasts, one a week, to see if
this gets traction.
And it did.
It took off.
And I think it took off becausethe mission is sincere and,
truthfully, there wasn't a lotof podcasts for more Fortune 500
companies that had been therethat could bring that
practitioner point of view butalso had the same mission of
trying to really bring this backto helping people's careers.
(04:15):
And so now we've had over250,000 downloads, 150 podcasts.
This week will be 151.
Yeah, and it's what I do everyweekend.
I don't know it's weird, but Ido podcasting like you guys do.
So I love it, and that allowedme to leave a private chief
people officer in private equity, a job that I didn't love.
That really just felt wasn'twhat best used my skills
(04:36):
long-term and where I wanted tobe.
And I left and I builtsomething called the NextGen HR
Accelerator Program and that isa four-week leadership
development program helping HRbusiness partners mostly
directors and senior managers bemore business-focused.
We teach how to read a P&L, howto be strategic, how to
influence executives and how totake business strategy to HR
(04:57):
strategy.
And I sold 22 seats for a pilotto Verizon, cardinal Health,
prudential, abbvie and I said,if I could do that, maybe I'd
just do my own thing and not goget a job.
And that's what I've done sinceMay of 2024.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
So it's been a crazy journey that's so good One.
We're inspired by what you'vedone and what you continue to do
, and love your podcast, sothank you for building it.
What would surprise people mostabout how you actually think
about HR?
What's your X factor, yourdifferentiator there?
Speaker 1 (05:30):
It's interesting because I think we bring a lot
of HR.
We bring a lot of who we are towhat we do.
It's an interesting craft.
It's not finance, whereeveryone knows what a good CFO
looks like.
We know we expect gap andnon-gap and there's rules around
accounting.
There's not really rules for HR.
It's more about art and science.
And so, for me, what I think hasbecome more and more clear as I
(05:51):
try to find my voice over thelast 18 months or so is that I'm
really focused on the businessand I think HR is a business
driver and I bring a much morebusiness-focused perspective.
That doesn't mean you leave thepeople side, it's just we
should think about this like aCEO would think about it.
We should approach the businesslike a business person would,
with a people mindset, and so Ireally believe the best HR
(06:14):
leaders are business leaderswith HR expertise, and that's
what I really try to bring andteach.
What do I talk about online ormy newsletter, etc.
But when I bring that, that'sme in some ways, and I think
that, frankly, is what makes HRleaders really successful in the
role is having that point ofview.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
I want to talk about the state of HR.
Right now, especially onLinkedIn, I see a lot of dogging
of HR.
They are not business-centric,they don't understand the
business.
They need a full rebrand whenyou see posts like that, that
dog HR.
They're too soft, they don'tunderstand the business.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
What's your reaction to that?
I think it's the William Gibsonquote the future is already
here, it's just not evenlydistributed.
And that's for HR as well.
And I'll give you a storyaround this.
When I was at a global techcompany as a director, the CHR
there.
She'd never been a CHR before.
And she said, hey, I want tohave the best executive coach.
And she handed me a book and itwas Dave Ulrich and it was HR,
human Resources Champions.
(07:12):
And she said I want Dave Ulrichto be my coach.
And so I reached out to DaveUlrich and got him to be her
coach.
At the time there wasn't Uber.
So I said I'm picking DaveUlrich up from the airport
because I want to get to knowhim and have a conversation with
him.
Obviously he's a luminary inthe field.
Literally, I'm driving to thehotel from the airport probably
a 15-minute drive.
I'm like so, dave, you wrotethis book 10 years ago and
nothing's really changed.
(07:33):
Why isn't HR more strategic andbusiness-focused?
And Dave said to me JP, that'sa great question, but it's
really.
20% are really strategic andbusiness-focused.
20% are never going to bestrategic and business-focused.
And then everyone in the middleis trying to figure it out and
I'm like so you basically justgave me the overall print.
They would have gone JP.
(07:53):
I was like, all right, what areyou explaining to me here?
This makes a lot of sense.
So you're seeing, 20% is goodstrategic, 20% are not, and the
rest of the mill are like theshow me state.
Missouri figure it out.
And I think he's right.
The point of this is, francesca,your question is that there are
organizations that are notbusiness focused.
They are only thinking aboutpeople.
(08:15):
They're still smiles and filesand doing things that is much
more personnel than what we dotoday, which is strategic, hr
and having an impact in thebusiness and the biggest
companies.
So I think that disparity iswhy this doesn't go away.
I think, if you look at theorganizations today, we have
three big groups.
As I see it I didn't know thisuntil I started the podcast you
(08:37):
have Fortune 500 companies thattypically are more sophisticated
and mature and are doing morecool work the HR work that we
think is driving the business.
Then you have more tech startupcompanies many of them, and
they call it people operationsand these folks are just
under-resourced.
They don't have as manyresources.
They're working with founders.
They have very differentchallenges than if you are at
(08:59):
Verizon, than if you were anastronomer.
If you have a 300 company and afounder driven, hr is just, it's
just done differently.
There it's like one person,it's one person or two people,
maybe it's 10 people, right.
And so how strategic can you beif you have to make sure that
people get paid and thatonboarding happens on time and
there's compliance issues,there's all kinds of issues that
(09:21):
things have to be done properly, and then you have private
equity, which is across theboard.
They're in the middle,depending on the size, that
private equity can lean moretowards people, operations or
more strategic HR.
So I think that is why mostpeople, when they start to rip
on HR, is that we get lumpedtogether and the reality is not.
Every HR person is the same andevery HR organization is the
(09:41):
same.
That's my take on it.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
Yeah, not every organization supports strategic
HR.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
There's not.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
I want to take it from the Fortune 5 angle because
I agree with you.
I see a lot of people.
They're the chief peopleofficer for XYZ company and
they're a team of one, maybe ateam of two.
Versus any team that we're at,like Nike or Deloitte or any of
these other companies that I'veworked for, your HR team can
easily be in the hundreds.
What do you think isn't workingabout strategic HR, right?
Speaker 1 (10:13):
now.
For me, what we haveopportunities to need to do is
we've got to get thetransactional work off people's
plates in a way that is doneproperly as a good employee
experience.
And I call this kind ofexecution plus because when I
talk to a lot of the CHROs, youhave to execute flawlessly, we
have to get paid, you have tomake sure that things are
happening, the trains have torun on time.
(10:34):
If you're not doing that as anHR leader, you're in trouble
because your credibility isgoing to be gone.
You're not gonna be able to dothe plus, so going to be gone.
You're not going to be able todo the plus.
So that's why I call itexecution plus.
And I see a lot of organizationsgoing through right now.
Many organizations are goingthrough this, trying to
transform and continue to levelup to be more strategic, but
they still are mired down thetransactional work or people are
(10:56):
hanging on to the transactionalwork because they felt value in
it.
They felt like they weredelivering some value by doing
some of that transactional work,helping people to answer
questions about benefits orleave of absence, when actually
a chatbot could do that just asgood or better or faster.
So organizations are reallytrying to move that way.
But that's the biggestchallenge.
Is that?
And then second, it's mindset,it's the leaders in HR.
(11:18):
Are we preparing to see ourroles differently, operate
differently and show updifferently with our leaders?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
I have a theory about this.
I want to get your thoughts.
I think HR needs to split intotwo different organizations,
because I feel like you havethis compliance angle of HR that
is very much about protectingthe organization, protecting the
employee, and then you have theplus side of the organization,
which is about enabling anddriving the business, and those
two things sometimes can side ofthe organization, which is
about enabling and driving thebusiness, and those two things
(11:46):
sometimes can A be conflictingand they definitely take
different mindsets.
They sure as hell takedifferent skill sets and they're
both incredibly needed.
To your very good point.
Can't we just throw thecompliance side over to legal
and really focus on the plusside so we can truly enable the
(12:09):
business, so we can truly bestrategic?
I think there's still strategicwork to be done on the
compliance side, but I feel likethese are two separate
organizations that have twodifferent remits, that have two
different skill sets and theywill continue to as we get into
AGI.
So what are your thoughts onthat?
Out of curiosity, am.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
I wrong?
What if you're wrong?
Actually, ram Charan had thatexact point of view in an HBR
article probably I'm going toguess 11 years ago.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah, I haven't read it.
Should probably read it.
Sorry about that.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Google it because it was actually.
It was a big thing for a momentbecause that was what he was
saying split HR.
And of course that was a momentwhere everyone got upset about
it hey, we can't split HR.
I do think it's actuallyhappening, I just think they're
not splitting it.
But the organizations I'veworked with are Fortune.
Some Fortune 20 companies areworking really hard to do that
in a way with technology, withjust the right people, skills
(13:02):
and strategies to get thatcompliance piece off people's
plates and really elevate HRbusiness partners to where they
actually have no transactionalwork.
And that's some of the work I'mdoing with helping companies to
do custom HR capabilitytraining.
Because what's happening is,hey, 20-30% of my job was
transactional and I used to feelreally valued for getting those
calls and helping a businessleader or any employee with some
(13:25):
questions or whatever ithappens to be.
And now that work goes away andI've got 20% or 30% more of my
time.
What do I do with that time?
Because now the focus is notthinking about an individual
employee and helping them solvetheir individual need.
It's are you doing strategicworkforce planning.
Are you doing organizationaldesign?
Are you ensuring the criticalroles and the bench for the
future?
What does that look like to bea real strategic business
(13:47):
partner?
And so I think that's the bigtransition that some
organizations are really tryingto do.
They've got the scale and scopeto outsource the compliance
work and the technology, and soyou see, some people, I think,
are making some good progressthere, but it's still a mindset
shift for the HR leaders.
That's the hardest part.
Yeah, sounds like a pretty bigcapability shift too.
Shift for the HR leaders that'sthe hardest part.
Yeah, sounds like a pretty bigcapability shift too.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
I think so too.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
I think it's massive, because most this is what the
hard about HR is that we need alot of different skill sets to
be successful.
It's not as easy as it looks tobe a strategic HR leader.
You have to have someconsulting experience, you have
to have some executive coaching,you have to have different
things, something I call valuecreators really four different
areas that I'm really focusingon, but we've got a lot of work
(14:28):
to do in that area.
But it's part of thattransition from personnel to HR,
to whatever we end up callingourselves, which I'm not a big
fan of changing the name all thetime, but I'm sure that's
happening.
Chro is now coming out of Vogue.
It's Chief People Officer.
We love to change the names,but that doesn't change the work
we do.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
So we'll see Speaking of change if we're to build a
future HR function from scratchtoday how would you make it
different?
Speaker 1 (14:59):
What do you visualize as the perfect setup?
That's a great question.
It's a hard one, right?
Because I think you got tostart with the business.
So the business model alwayshave to start with the business
model.
Whether you need to do theUlrich three-legged stool of HR,
business partners, centers ofexcellence and then shared
services, which 80% of thecompanies are still in that
model, remains to be seen.
What I would do, though, becauseI think you match up to the
business, is I would be thinkingabout being AI first, and I
(15:22):
think the problem we're havingtoday is that we're bolting AI
on top of things and so it canhelp you write email faster.
Maybe it's going to review someresumes, right, but we're not
doing our entire talentacquisition process with AI in
the middle, and so if you startto design AI processes from
scratch and your HR team from AIand think about all the
transactional work we justtalked about, how can you have
(15:44):
systems in AI that wouldactually do that versus people,
or now their AI is obviouslyhuman, is still connected in the
loop, but how do you use that?
Technology is one area I wouldgo.
Second piece is thetransactional work.
I would try to outsource all ofthat as much as possible and
figure out what that would looklike, and I think organizations
that start today, that aresmaller, have an advantage
(16:06):
because there's better tech.
They can do a better job ofoutsourcing different pieces of
it.
You may have a pretty expensivetech stack at the end of it and
it may be a little bitdisjointed, but I think trying
to start with, get rid of thetransactional work, leverage AI
better and then, on the peoplepiece, I would be bringing in
liberal arts degrees.
I'm looking for people who haveMBAs but also have done a lot
(16:27):
of experiences.
I don't want just specialistswho've only done one area of HR.
I want people who are a littlebit more generalists, who are
more flexible, and I wouldreally think about that talent
across the team a little bitmore differently.
No-transcript, I don't know ifit fit the business or not.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
What are those core teams that you see?
What is the future function forteams that are within HR that
we're not maybe leveragingenough today, that you think we
need to lean into more.
If we're starting to take awaysome of the administrative
pieces, if we're starting tolean into AI more, what becomes
really critical to support thebusiness?
Speaker 1 (17:07):
The hard part is always like seeing the future
from today, because it reallychanges your vantage point right
.
It's so hard to see these rolesthat will emerge, the AI, and I
do think roles will emerge wehave never thought of before.
What I do believe will start tohappen is you're going to have
HR teams hiring people who areAI first and AI capable, who
know how to build agents,understand how to do GPTs, who
(17:29):
understand it, can help theother folks in the HR team to
translate and actually wire AIcapabilities into the workflow,
to build new capabilities andnew products and new things that
will help managers, helpleaders be more effective, etc.
So I think you'll start to seethat.
So we need that AI capability.
It's a combination of someonewho's probably an AI engineer,
(17:51):
someone who's maybe some HR work.
Maybe there's an IO sitecomponent to that.
I could be totally wrong.
It could be a totally differentbackground that I've not
thought of Some processcomponent, kind of unicorns but
I think that'll start to becomea job over the next five years
that people will start to moveinto.
I'm seeing some companies doingthat now, where they've got
teams, they have some AIchampions, but the reality is no
(18:11):
one's an AI expert.
It's too new and you could bean AI expert tomorrow if you
just spent the next six monthsto a year just going deep on it,
and so I think someorganizations will do that.
Some people will start tofigure that out.
I still think talent managementwill still matter.
I still think having a verystrategic kind of HR consulting
and strategic mindset aroundthat will be really important.
(18:32):
I think people analytics willbe important.
I've always been a big fan ofpeople analytics.
I think it's underutilized.
But then HR business partnerswill also be hugely important
and maybe even more important.
We already demand so much ofthem and I think that's not
going to go down.
I think expectations for themwill continue to rise.
So they're going to have to belike HR business partners on
steroids have new capabilities,do, like we just talked about, a
(18:58):
lot more than they're evendoing today on the strategic
front.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Who's doing this really well?
Like you, work with a lot oforganizations, as you mentioned
the Fortune 20.
You're in there.
You're seeing things in yourown program.
You're likely hearing who's onthe cutting edge of thinking
about this differently.
Who do you think's leading inthis space and moving in the
right direction?
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Yeah, I think this one's pretty widely known,
moderna.
I think it's one of the firstAI first companies.
That's why they reported thatTracy Franklin became the CHRO
and then they gave her IT, soshe has IT and HR, which I think
has been a really big test case.
We're going to find out.
I think something just happenedpretty similar.
It's serviced neither clients,by the way, but I've got friends
in both companies and Moderna,I think is really interesting.
(19:44):
I know Molly Nagler pretty well.
There They've built thecapability across the company to
build GPTs and the number ofGPTs that have been built across
the company, I'm not sure it'spublic, but it's a lot.
It's a lot more than most of ushave ever built.
So people are building GPTs foreverything across HR and using
that to supercharge their work,and I think that culture of
innovation, where people arethen feeling the opportunity to
(20:05):
go create something for theirspecific need, is where AI can
really be innovative andexciting and that's where I see
the next five years, peoplebuilding their own tools to do
things that they need thatmatches their business case and
what they do on a day-to-daybasis to add more value and be
faster.
I think that'll start to happenmore.
Other organizations I won't saythe name, but they have built
(20:26):
out a 50-person AI champion team.
They're all working across theorganization to learn.
They're investing in thedevelopment of that team and so
they're really saying hey,you're on the forefront of
thinking about use cases and howwe start to build this out.
Ibm is also on the forefront ofthis.
Salesforce has talked aboutthis.
They've got agents.
There's a lot of that stuffhappening but frankly, most
(20:48):
organizations are not doing thatmuch.
They put a chatbot in andthey're just now starting to
maybe use that chatbot andpeople are just starting to
figure out.
I can really help them tosupercharge my productivity, but
I haven't figured out how totransform TA or other areas.
We'll see.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
We are AI optimists over here as well, like just
thinking about the power ofpossibility and how that helps
us be more strategic and supportthe business.
But then you're also hearingsome of those headlines right
when you're thinking about newrole creation in HR, like some
of the problems that are poppingup.
We had a guest on a year ago,dwena Blondstrom, who talks
about the concept of human debtwith new technology and thinking
(21:26):
about strategically with newtechnology what new problems
might be created if you're notthoughtful in how you're
building these things.
So what advice would you giveto a CHRO who's considering
implementing AI and how toevaluate things so that you're
being strategic but you're alsomaking sure you're not creating
new long-term issues that mightpop up down the road?
(21:48):
One example of that the classaction lawsuit coming up for
workday.
So what advice would you giveto a CHRO trying to lead in that
space but also navigating someof the new issues that might pop
up as a result?
Speaker 1 (22:02):
It's a really great question.
I think it's more than just theCHRO's challenge.
It's the CEO's challenge, theboard's challenge of how do you
think about AI and use itresponsibly and ethically.
From an HR perspective, though,as we start to implement this,
we should be at the forefrontwith the CEO and the team, the
full C-suite team, not ITleading.
(22:22):
This is fundamentally AI's workredesign, it's task redesign.
It will change organizationalstructures and power potentially
over time, because it canreally empower you to have
information across theorganization you haven't had
before.
So I think the unintendedconsequences of AI if an
organization wants to movereally fast on this is it will
probably break down more silosand actually probably shake up
(22:46):
the power structure.
And there's a really greatarticle where they took AI and
they put it on to look atsystems across and data across
an organization.
That was business data.
It's like supply chain salesmarketing.
Initially it was like they weretrying to figure out a supply
chain problem, so they just gavethe data to supply chain.
Then they said, well, actuallylet's give data to marketing,
(23:07):
let's put the revenue data inthere, et cetera, and the
solutions it was coming up withand basically the gaps it was
finding was really across theorganization, and so what
happened was no one really knewwho owned and who should make
the decision, because it wasn'tsupply chain anymore, it wasn't
marketing decision.
The insights were hitting allthe way up to a CEO and breaking
down some of that org structure.
(23:28):
We're going to start to see AIgetting out of people's sandbox
and I think there'll be a lot ofhey, this is my data, my
protection.
That's probably one of thethings that will slow us down
From an ethical standpoint andlegal standpoint I'm not a legal
expert.
I think you've got to be reallythoughtful.
I think all of the good soundindustrial organizational
psychology of principles ofadverse impact and job analysis
(23:51):
all that stuff still appliesEfficacy, validity you should be
able to get in that sandbox andbe able to understand that.
But I think when you thinkabout generative AI, the
hallucinations are a feature,not a bug, and so we're really
talking about LLMs and othertypes of things that are a
little bit more structured.
But to use generative AI forsome of the stuff you're going
(24:12):
to get, I think bias in somethings.
You don't want out of that,because that's not.
That's really what it'sdesigned for.
When you get into the detailsof it.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
I want to go a little philosophical for a second, and
you might be asking, Francesca,why are you asking me this now?
But I'm genuinely curious.
Your answer, which is what isHR in the next three years?
What is it?
What is it going to be?
Speaker 1 (24:47):
We anticipate a lot of change in the world.
The world changes a lot.
People change slower and havechanged slower than we would
expect.
The world is changing veryquickly, but human nature and
people don't change.
Fundamentally, I see HR's role,which is very different than
finance, marketing, supply chain.
We all know what we can expectand what they're supposed to
deliver.
What HR has to deliver isharder.
It's more philosophical.
(25:08):
So I would define this and Ilearned this from Lucien Alzari,
who is a former CHR credential.
He said this that HR's role isto ensure the organization has
the talent and capabilities towin, and I thought it was the
most brilliant and smartest wayto talk about HR.
That's our job ensuring we havethe talent and capabilities to
win.
How do we do?
That is the hard part.
That's where this idea of theart and capabilities to win how
(25:33):
do we do?
That is the hard part.
That's where this idea of theart and science and who you are
as an HR leader and how we showup is really what makes the job
so hard and why we see highturnover.
Because you would approach itdifferently than I would
approach it and it starts tobecome not just are we using the
same tools.
We might use critical roles anddefine that the same way, or
talent acquisition or talentmanagement, whatever that stuff
is the same.
It's how we would approach thebusiness, how we frame it, how
(25:54):
we then get people behind themission of what we're doing
right and how we can get thatsupport to drive things from
behind the scenes, because we'renever actually in front.
And so I think for HR leadersand what HR is, we are there to
unlock that human potential intoactual capital and true value
and innovation that shareholdersand everyone can feel and
experience in terms ofmonetization.
(26:16):
So we have careers and we havejobs that could pay our bills
and send our kids to college andall those things.
But how we do that is verychallenging and that's probably
why, honestly, the idea ofbuilding HR capability is an
evergreen concept that's beenaround for a while, because it's
just so hard to do.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Yeah, it's ever evolving too.
When you think about the talentand the capabilities to win,
the conversation now becomes acombination of human and agenic
or human and AGI.
Right, Talent and capabilitiesgoes synthetic and goes human.
It builds this fascinatingconversation.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
Yeah, and I think a couple of things I've seen
recently, when there's so manygood platitudes that we should
put on coffee mugs or t-shirtsor on LinkedIn, right, this is
the last generation that willmanage just a human workforce to
just a human workforce Fair,probably, but I guess we could
say is our SaaS system?
Is that also a tool?
(27:12):
Is it my email a tool?
I know it's not thinking foritself.
However, we've used technologyfor a long time and HR's job is
not to deploy technology, it'sto solve business problems.
And so we have to continue tocome back to that with our
leaders and be like hey look,we're not more agentic AI, if
(27:34):
you want, or agents or whateverpeople want to say.
These are because there's a lotof definitions that aren't very
clear on that area.
We'll start to see that more,but is that any different than I
don't know running a script inWorkday?
I'm much more optimistic aboutthe future, but it does require
HR leaders and all of us to stepback and say how do I create
(27:56):
value?
And the way I used to createvalue is no longer valid and I
have to find a new way to createvalue.
And that is going to bechallenging because that
requires us to change more thanthe AI is going to change, and
so some people will be leftbehind because they can't adapt
to it.
But that's my thesis of wherewe go next.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Yeah, love it, love it.
Jp.
What is keeping you excitedabout this work right now For?
Speaker 1 (28:19):
me, I feel incredibly blessed that I've had the
support I've had launching myown company, be able to build it
and be able to keep the lightson and keep the kids fed and
everything like that and reallyhelp the industry.
And when people say to me hey,I love your podcast, it's made a
difference, or the program thatyou put together has made a
difference and you're doing goodthings for our field, that is
(28:40):
incredibly valuable.
So that keeps me excited.
It keeps me working the 60 plushours a week, probably closer
to 70.
A lot of times actually, it'sbeen pretty crazy, but that
keeps me excited about going andtrying to build a future that
we can have big impact.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
What's one piece of advice you'd give to a CHRO
who's stepping into the rolethis year?
Speaker 1 (29:00):
I'd say three things.
I'm going to go block andtackling, Build and manage
relationships at the board andCEO and C-suite level.
That is your number one job.
Number two learn that businesscold right, Get in there.
Number three deliver a win forthat CEO in the first 90 days to
get on their good side.
And number four is figure outhow AI is going to help you
(29:24):
elevate and continue to getcloser to that.
That's for every HR leader, butthose are the three things that
matter the most.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
JP, we like to wrap it around where you can respond
with one word or a statement.
Sometimes these go longer thanthat, and that's totally fine.
But are you game a little rapidround?
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Let's do it.
Speaker 3 (29:50):
Okay, it's 2030.
What's work going to look like?
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Oh, wow, 2030.
Guess what the work's going tolook.
A lot the same.
What's not changing that muchin five years?
Sorry, it hasn't changed in along time.
We've been using an office forprobably 50 years or so, and we
still think that's really greattechnology.
It's outdated, but we still usethe office right, and we're
returning to work, so I think itwill be the same, as politics,
(30:15):
power, return to office andhybrid will still be a debate,
because that's the newperformance management.
What will be new, though, is Ithink there'll be more
innovation happening.
I think innovation in terms ofAI.
I think they'll have to reallyfind more innovative workers.
People will have an opportunityto do more and create more with
AI that we haven't in the past,and so I think it's going to
have creative uprising, if youwill.
(30:36):
I think there'll be a lot moregig workers.
I think more and more peoplewill go on their own, start
their own companies and provideservice to other larger
companies, so I think theecosystem of work will shift a
little bit that way, but fiveyears, it's just not far enough
out to predict.
I don't know, maybe 15, 20years it could be radically
different, but it's hard to say.
Five feels like it'll still becloser to today than the Jetsons
(30:57):
.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
Okay, it's fair.
It's fair, so people don't needto run for the hills just yet.
With all the flashy headlinesgoing on, all right.
What's one thing aboutcorporate culture?
You'd like to just see diealready.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Oh, I'd love for us to get rid of pseudo
productivity, the idea that myjob is showing up on meetings
but not producing any work.
Yeah, I think we need to getback to where I'm responsible
for delivering something, a realwork product, instead of
showing up on calls to talkabout the work that we're not
actually doing or responding toemails about the work that we're
(31:33):
going to do, and that's really.
This is a Cal Newport concept,but I think pseudo productivity
is actually what holds back realproductivity in organizations,
and so, unfortunately, it's ahard one to get rid of.
But I really wish we could getto that point, because I think
it can be pretty powerful foractually all delivering the work
we expect and understand how wecreate value.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
Yeah, get rid of the meeting for the meeting for the
other meeting and then thedebrief after the meeting.
What do you think the greatestopportunity is that most
organizations are missing out onright now?
Speaker 1 (32:08):
I think it's more that individuals are missing out
on a big opportunity and thatis your current job is the most
overlooked career opportunity inthe world.
Most people, when we thinkabout their next job and their
career, they look externally Iwant this new role, I want to go
here and be promoted.
What they fail to see isthey're actually in a company
and have an opportunity andtruly a laboratory for growth.
(32:30):
You have relationships, youknow the business, you have a
role and now the opportunity isto make and design a job that
you love.
And so go to your manager, goto your leaders and say I see an
opportunity to make adifference and make that
difference and design and buildthe capabilities you want to
build internally.
We just too often look otherplaces.
The grass is not always greener.
(32:51):
There's a huge opportunity tomake a bigger difference where
you're at.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Yeah, what music are you listening to right now?
Speaker 1 (33:00):
I'm listening to the Weeknd.
We're going to go to the Weekndconcert here in September, so
that's been on the familyplaylist, so that's cool.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
Okay, okay, what are you reading?
Audiobooks count, by the way.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
The book I most recently have read is the Lean
Product Playbook, and so I'vebeen reading a lot more about
product management recently andgetting into that.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Okay, who do you really admire?
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Oh man, that's a good one.
I think about my dad a lotrecently because I've been
writing some posts about him and, for whatever reason, he's come
back up, and so my dad is justsomeone who I've really thought
a lot about.
He passed when I was 30.
So it's been many years sincehe's passed, but he's someone I
admired for helping me to becomewho I am today and the impact
he had on just who I am overall.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
He was a gumball.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Yeah, we saw that.
Yeah, so that did pretty wellon LinkedIn.
Yeah, so he ran the gumballmachine business.
He was a really interesting andcollected guy.
He had a PhD in economics andhad done sales and actually was
a pilot for an airline at onepoint.
It was in the Air Force and thengot into the gumball machine
business and he liked buildingthe gumball machines and
(34:10):
tinkering and so he taught mehow to locate gumball machines
when I was 15 years old and theconversation the dad comment
that he taught me back then wasI was like I'm never going to be
able to buy this truck and Iwanted to buy a truck at 15.
So my dad said look, you wantthis truck, we'll buy it for you
, but you have to now pay usback.
It was $4,000 at the time.
And he said pay us back andI'll teach you how to locate gun
(34:32):
machines, but you have to paythe entire truck off to drive it
.
So my truck actually sat therefor a year and a half while I
drove a really bad truck thatwas like a beat up old work
truck to go do and put thesevending machines out.
And I remember saying to himI'm never going to make enough
money.
And I was like, how am I goingto do this?
And he basically was like JP,you'll make money how we make
money, which is one gumball at atime, which is one quarter at a
(34:53):
time, and that was just astatement that he would say to
me all the time.
It was probably a little bitover the top, but it got beat
into my head around that and soit just stuck with me, this idea
of one gumball at a time.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
I like it.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
What's a piece of advice that you've received that
you wish everyone had?
Speaker 1 (35:11):
In the age of everyone having opinions,
including myself and all of us Ithink number one is consider
the source.
So when you think about takingadvice from somebody, have they
done it?
Have they been there?
Have they sat in the seat?
And so for me, I really want toknow if I'm taking advice.
You at least have been similarsituation to my shoes Too often.
(35:32):
There's a lot of advice nowthat is almost pseudo advice
that someone actually hasn'tbeen in the seat, they don't
know what it's like and we'repontificating, but the reality
is it depends always matters onadvice.
So my best advice is justconsider the source, be
thoughtful and think about howit really applies to you and
whether or not that adviceactually is relevant or not.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
Yeah, I think that's sound right.
We talk about that all the time.
Francesca and I were evensaying don't take advice from,
don't take criticism even fromsomeone you want to take advice
from, and being in the seat isso critically important.
There's a lot out there wherepeople haven't experienced it at
all or haven't experienced itat the scale Right yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
The criticism one's really good because someone
could throw a dagger at us andgive us feedback.
Yeah, but really does it matter?
Is that really the feedback Ishould listen to?
Is it going to be helpful forme or not?
I think that's a good point, atleast a good lens to put on,
not just take every piece offeedback you get.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Where can people follow you and where can they
sign up for your program?
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Thanks for asking.
Linkedin, of course, probablywhere I think a lot of us spend
our time.
So LinkedIn.
And then, if you want to go tofutureofhrcom, you can find out
about my newsletter, the NextGenHR Accelerator program, et
cetera, and check out thepodcast.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Thanks, JP.
Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Thank you both.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
This episode was produced, edited and all things
by us myself, mel Plett andFrancesca Rennery.
Our music is by Pink Zebra andif you like this, please rate
and subscribe.
We'd really appreciate it.
That helps keep us going.
Take care, friends.
Bye friends, bye friends, byefriends.
HR's role is to ensure the organization has the
talent and capabilities to win.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to your Work, friends, where we're breaking
down the now and next of work soyou get ahead.
I'm Francesca Ranieri.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
And I'm Mel Platt.
Mel, we just had a conversationwith JP Elliott.
We did yeah, we love JP.
Over here at your Work Friends.
He is a friend of the pod andwe are a friend of his the
Future of HR podcast, andFrancesca and I, week after week
, we're talking about the nowand next of work.
We're very interested in whatwork is going to look like, what
it looks like, where it's going.
Jp is very focused on settingup HR organizations, which are
(00:54):
the base of every successfulplace.
Right To be prepared for thatas well, like helping develop
that next generation of HRleaders, and we thought this was
prime time for us to connectand talk about what's happening
with work.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
If you don't know, JP Elliott hosts the Future of HR
podcast where he's talking toexecutives and CHROs from folks
like Amazon, American Express,Verizon.
He also runs the NextGen HRAccelerator which, to Mel's very
good point, builds thoseNextGen HR skills of the folks
that are running HR.
If you're wanting to learn fromsomebody that is talking with
(01:33):
people, learning from peopleupskilling people in HR all day,
every day, you want to talk toJP.
We're stoked to have him onthis week.
We were also very stoked totalk to him on his podcast.
We're doing a little pod swapthis week, friends, so go over
to the Future of HR and you canhear Mel and I talk about our
latest research on reciprocalwork, the boss-employer
(01:55):
relationship, and talking aboutthe strategy work that we do.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Yeah, with that folks .
Here's our friend JP, from theoutside.
(02:20):
You're a host of the Future ofHR podcast.
You're an advisor to a numberof organizations.
What's your story?
What caused you to launch theFuture of HR?
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Yeah, for me it's always been about impact, and it
was about 2022 when I startedgetting to podcasts, which was
super late in the game.
They've been around for a while.
My wife and I started listeningto podcasts and I was like, let
me check out these HR podcasts,because first we're listening
to SmartList and other ones thatare more popular and probably
better than mine, of course.
(02:51):
But I listened to the HRpodcast and I was like, huh,
there's a gap in the market.
I don't think we really areleading the story.
I feel like we had anopportunity to do two things.
One, how amazing it would be ifI was 25 years old and early in
my career, I could listen tosome of these amazing people
that I've worked with andlearned from throughout my years
(03:12):
, whether it's a Mark Efron,chros like Holly Tyson or
whoever and I've had a reallygood network.
And so I was like, gosh, whatif I did a podcast?
And it was really about what Iwanted to hear when I was 25
years old and starting my career, and that was it.
And so I bought a microphonesame microphone I'm talking to
you right now.
On it arrived through Amazon,my wife said what is this and
why did you buy a microphone?
And I said, oh, that's myaccountability partner.
(03:33):
I'm starting a podcast calledthe Future of HR and I've owned
thefutureofhrcom probably for 15, 20 years and never done
anything with it, done anythingwith it.
And so it just became the timeto do it.
And when I committed tolaunching it, I said you guys
know there's something calledPodfade.
A lot of people quit after awhile because actually
podcasting is actually harderthan it looks to produce a good
(03:54):
podcast.
And I said I'm going to do 52podcasts, one a week, to see if
this gets traction.
And it did.
It took off.
And I think it took off becausethe mission is sincere and,
truthfully, there wasn't a lotof podcasts for more Fortune 500
companies that had been therethat could bring that
practitioner point of view butalso had the same mission of
trying to really bring this backto helping people's careers.
(04:15):
And so now we've had over250,000 downloads, 150 podcasts.
This week will be 151.
Yeah, and it's what I do everyweekend.
I don't know it's weird, but Ido podcasting like you guys do.
So I love it, and that allowedme to leave a private chief
people officer in private equity, a job that I didn't love.
That really just felt wasn'twhat best used my skills
(04:36):
long-term and where I wanted tobe.
And I left and I builtsomething called the NextGen HR
Accelerator Program and that isa four-week leadership
development program helping HRbusiness partners mostly
directors and senior managers bemore business-focused.
We teach how to read a P&L, howto be strategic, how to
influence executives and how totake business strategy to HR
(04:57):
strategy.
And I sold 22 seats for a pilotto Verizon, cardinal Health,
prudential, abbvie and I said,if I could do that, maybe I'd
just do my own thing and not goget a job.
And that's what I've done sinceMay of 2024.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
So it's been a crazy journey that's so good One.
We're inspired by what you'vedone and what you continue to do
, and love your podcast, sothank you for building it.
What would surprise people mostabout how you actually think
about HR?
What's your X factor, yourdifferentiator there?
Speaker 1 (05:30):
It's interesting because I think we bring a lot
of HR.
We bring a lot of who we are towhat we do.
It's an interesting craft.
It's not finance, whereeveryone knows what a good CFO
looks like.
We know we expect gap andnon-gap and there's rules around
accounting.
There's not really rules for HR.
It's more about art and science.
And so, for me, what I think hasbecome more and more clear as I
(05:51):
try to find my voice over thelast 18 months or so is that I'm
really focused on the businessand I think HR is a business
driver and I bring a much morebusiness-focused perspective.
That doesn't mean you leave thepeople side, it's just we
should think about this like aCEO would think about it.
We should approach the businesslike a business person would,
with a people mindset, and so Ireally believe the best HR
(06:14):
leaders are business leaderswith HR expertise, and that's
what I really try to bring andteach.
What do I talk about online ormy newsletter, etc.
But when I bring that, that'sme in some ways, and I think
that, frankly, is what makes HRleaders really successful in the
role is having that point ofview.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
I want to talk about the state of HR.
Right now, especially onLinkedIn, I see a lot of dogging
of HR.
They are not business-centric,they don't understand the
business.
They need a full rebrand whenyou see posts like that, that
dog HR.
They're too soft, they don'tunderstand the business.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
What's your reaction to that?
I think it's the William Gibsonquote the future is already
here, it's just not evenlydistributed.
And that's for HR as well.
And I'll give you a storyaround this.
When I was at a global techcompany as a director, the CHR
there.
She'd never been a CHR before.
And she said, hey, I want tohave the best executive coach.
And she handed me a book and itwas Dave Ulrich and it was HR,
human Resources Champions.
(07:12):
And she said I want Dave Ulrichto be my coach.
And so I reached out to DaveUlrich and got him to be her
coach.
At the time there wasn't Uber.
So I said I'm picking DaveUlrich up from the airport
because I want to get to knowhim and have a conversation with
him.
Obviously he's a luminary inthe field.
Literally, I'm driving to thehotel from the airport probably
a 15-minute drive.
I'm like so, dave, you wrotethis book 10 years ago and
nothing's really changed.
(07:33):
Why isn't HR more strategic andbusiness-focused?
And Dave said to me JP, that'sa great question, but it's
really.
20% are really strategic andbusiness-focused.
20% are never going to bestrategic and business-focused.
And then everyone in the middleis trying to figure it out and
I'm like so you basically justgave me the overall print.
They would have gone JP.
(07:53):
I was like, all right, what areyou explaining to me here?
This makes a lot of sense.
So you're seeing, 20% is goodstrategic, 20% are not, and the
rest of the mill are like theshow me state.
Missouri figure it out.
And I think he's right.
The point of this is, francesca,your question is that there are
organizations that are notbusiness focused.
They are only thinking aboutpeople.
(08:15):
They're still smiles and filesand doing things that is much
more personnel than what we dotoday, which is strategic, hr
and having an impact in thebusiness and the biggest
companies.
So I think that disparity iswhy this doesn't go away.
I think, if you look at theorganizations today, we have
three big groups.
As I see it I didn't know thisuntil I started the podcast you
(08:37):
have Fortune 500 companies thattypically are more sophisticated
and mature and are doing morecool work the HR work that we
think is driving the business.
Then you have more tech startupcompanies many of them, and
they call it people operationsand these folks are just
under-resourced.
They don't have as manyresources.
They're working with founders.
They have very differentchallenges than if you are at
(08:59):
Verizon, than if you were anastronomer.
If you have a 300 company and afounder driven, hr is just, it's
just done differently.
There it's like one person,it's one person or two people,
maybe it's 10 people, right.
And so how strategic can you beif you have to make sure that
people get paid and thatonboarding happens on time and
there's compliance issues,there's all kinds of issues that
(09:21):
things have to be done properly, and then you have private
equity, which is across theboard.
They're in the middle,depending on the size, that
private equity can lean moretowards people, operations or
more strategic HR.
So I think that is why mostpeople, when they start to rip
on HR, is that we get lumpedtogether and the reality is not.
Every HR person is the same andevery HR organization is the
(09:41):
same.
That's my take on it.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
Yeah, not every organization supports strategic
HR.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
There's not.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
I want to take it from the Fortune 5 angle because
I agree with you.
I see a lot of people.
They're the chief peopleofficer for XYZ company and
they're a team of one, maybe ateam of two.
Versus any team that we're at,like Nike or Deloitte or any of
these other companies that I'veworked for, your HR team can
easily be in the hundreds.
What do you think isn't workingabout strategic HR, right?
Speaker 1 (10:13):
now.
For me, what we haveopportunities to need to do is
we've got to get thetransactional work off people's
plates in a way that is doneproperly as a good employee
experience.
And I call this kind ofexecution plus because when I
talk to a lot of the CHROs, youhave to execute flawlessly, we
have to get paid, you have tomake sure that things are
happening, the trains have torun on time.
(10:34):
If you're not doing that as anHR leader, you're in trouble
because your credibility isgoing to be gone.
You're not gonna be able to dothe plus, so going to be gone.
You're not going to be able todo the plus.
So that's why I call itexecution plus.
And I see a lot of organizationsgoing through right now.
Many organizations are goingthrough this, trying to
transform and continue to levelup to be more strategic, but
they still are mired down thetransactional work or people are
(10:56):
hanging on to the transactionalwork because they felt value in
it.
They felt like they weredelivering some value by doing
some of that transactional work,helping people to answer
questions about benefits orleave of absence, when actually
a chatbot could do that just asgood or better or faster.
So organizations are reallytrying to move that way.
But that's the biggestchallenge.
Is that?
And then second, it's mindset,it's the leaders in HR.
(11:18):
Are we preparing to see ourroles differently, operate
differently and show updifferently with our leaders?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
I have a theory about this.
I want to get your thoughts.
I think HR needs to split intotwo different organizations,
because I feel like you havethis compliance angle of HR that
is very much about protectingthe organization, protecting the
employee, and then you have theplus side of the organization,
which is about enabling anddriving the business, and those
two things sometimes can side ofthe organization, which is
about enabling and driving thebusiness, and those two things
(11:46):
sometimes can A be conflictingand they definitely take
different mindsets.
They sure as hell takedifferent skill sets and they're
both incredibly needed.
To your very good point.
Can't we just throw thecompliance side over to legal
and really focus on the plusside so we can truly enable the
(12:09):
business, so we can truly bestrategic?
I think there's still strategicwork to be done on the
compliance side, but I feel likethese are two separate
organizations that have twodifferent remits, that have two
different skill sets and theywill continue to as we get into
AGI.
So what are your thoughts onthat?
Out of curiosity, am.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
I wrong?
What if you're wrong?
Actually, ram Charan had thatexact point of view in an HBR
article probably I'm going toguess 11 years ago.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah, I haven't read it.
Should probably read it.
Sorry about that.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Google it because it was actually.
It was a big thing for a momentbecause that was what he was
saying split HR.
And of course that was a momentwhere everyone got upset about
it hey, we can't split HR.
I do think it's actuallyhappening, I just think they're
not splitting it.
But the organizations I'veworked with are Fortune.
Some Fortune 20 companies areworking really hard to do that
in a way with technology, withjust the right people, skills
(13:02):
and strategies to get thatcompliance piece off people's
plates and really elevate HRbusiness partners to where they
actually have no transactionalwork.
And that's some of the work I'mdoing with helping companies to
do custom HR capabilitytraining.
Because what's happening is,hey, 20-30% of my job was
transactional and I used to feelreally valued for getting those
calls and helping a businessleader or any employee with some
(13:25):
questions or whatever ithappens to be.
And now that work goes away andI've got 20% or 30% more of my
time.
What do I do with that time?
Because now the focus is notthinking about an individual
employee and helping them solvetheir individual need.
It's are you doing strategicworkforce planning.
Are you doing organizationaldesign?
Are you ensuring the criticalroles and the bench for the
future?
What does that look like to bea real strategic business
(13:47):
partner?
And so I think that's the bigtransition that some
organizations are really tryingto do.
They've got the scale and scopeto outsource the compliance
work and the technology, and soyou see, some people, I think,
are making some good progressthere, but it's still a mindset
shift for the HR leaders.
That's the hardest part.
Yeah, sounds like a pretty bigcapability shift too.
Shift for the HR leaders that'sthe hardest part.
Yeah, sounds like a pretty bigcapability shift too.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
I think so too.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
I think it's massive, because most this is what the
hard about HR is that we need alot of different skill sets to
be successful.
It's not as easy as it looks tobe a strategic HR leader.
You have to have someconsulting experience, you have
to have some executive coaching,you have to have different
things, something I call valuecreators really four different
areas that I'm really focusingon, but we've got a lot of work
(14:28):
to do in that area.
But it's part of thattransition from personnel to HR,
to whatever we end up callingourselves, which I'm not a big
fan of changing the name all thetime, but I'm sure that's
happening.
Chro is now coming out of Vogue.
It's Chief People Officer.
We love to change the names,but that doesn't change the work
we do.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
So we'll see Speaking of change if we're to build a
future HR function from scratchtoday how would you make it
different?
Speaker 1 (14:59):
What do you visualize as the perfect setup?
That's a great question.
It's a hard one, right?
Because I think you got tostart with the business.
So the business model alwayshave to start with the business
model.
Whether you need to do theUlrich three-legged stool of HR,
business partners, centers ofexcellence and then shared
services, which 80% of thecompanies are still in that
model, remains to be seen.
What I would do, though, becauseI think you match up to the
business, is I would be thinkingabout being AI first, and I
(15:22):
think the problem we're havingtoday is that we're bolting AI
on top of things and so it canhelp you write email faster.
Maybe it's going to review someresumes, right, but we're not
doing our entire talentacquisition process with AI in
the middle, and so if you startto design AI processes from
scratch and your HR team from AIand think about all the
transactional work we justtalked about, how can you have
(15:44):
systems in AI that wouldactually do that versus people,
or now their AI is obviouslyhuman, is still connected in the
loop, but how do you use that?
Technology is one area I wouldgo.
Second piece is thetransactional work.
I would try to outsource all ofthat as much as possible and
figure out what that would looklike, and I think organizations
that start today, that aresmaller, have an advantage
(16:06):
because there's better tech.
They can do a better job ofoutsourcing different pieces of
it.
You may have a pretty expensivetech stack at the end of it and
it may be a little bitdisjointed, but I think trying
to start with, get rid of thetransactional work, leverage AI
better and then, on the peoplepiece, I would be bringing in
liberal arts degrees.
I'm looking for people who haveMBAs but also have done a lot
(16:27):
of experiences.
I don't want just specialistswho've only done one area of HR.
I want people who are a littlebit more generalists, who are
more flexible, and I wouldreally think about that talent
across the team a little bitmore differently.
No-transcript, I don't know ifit fit the business or not.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
What are those core teams that you see?
What is the future function forteams that are within HR that
we're not maybe leveragingenough today, that you think we
need to lean into more.
If we're starting to take awaysome of the administrative
pieces, if we're starting tolean into AI more, what becomes
really critical to support thebusiness?
Speaker 1 (17:07):
The hard part is always like seeing the future
from today, because it reallychanges your vantage point right
.
It's so hard to see these rolesthat will emerge, the AI, and I
do think roles will emerge wehave never thought of before.
What I do believe will start tohappen is you're going to have
HR teams hiring people who areAI first and AI capable, who
know how to build agents,understand how to do GPTs, who
(17:29):
understand it, can help theother folks in the HR team to
translate and actually wire AIcapabilities into the workflow,
to build new capabilities andnew products and new things that
will help managers, helpleaders be more effective, etc.
So I think you'll start to seethat.
So we need that AI capability.
It's a combination of someonewho's probably an AI engineer,
(17:51):
someone who's maybe some HR work.
Maybe there's an IO sitecomponent to that.
I could be totally wrong.
It could be a totally differentbackground that I've not
thought of Some processcomponent, kind of unicorns but
I think that'll start to becomea job over the next five years
that people will start to moveinto.
I'm seeing some companies doingthat now, where they've got
teams, they have some AIchampions, but the reality is no
(18:11):
one's an AI expert.
It's too new and you could bean AI expert tomorrow if you
just spent the next six monthsto a year just going deep on it,
and so I think someorganizations will do that.
Some people will start tofigure that out.
I still think talent managementwill still matter.
I still think having a verystrategic kind of HR consulting
and strategic mindset aroundthat will be really important.
(18:32):
I think people analytics willbe important.
I've always been a big fan ofpeople analytics.
I think it's underutilized.
But then HR business partnerswill also be hugely important
and maybe even more important.
We already demand so much ofthem and I think that's not
going to go down.
I think expectations for themwill continue to rise.
So they're going to have to belike HR business partners on
steroids have new capabilities,do, like we just talked about, a
(18:58):
lot more than they're evendoing today on the strategic
front.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Who's doing this really well?
Like you, work with a lot oforganizations, as you mentioned
the Fortune 20.
You're in there.
You're seeing things in yourown program.
You're likely hearing who's onthe cutting edge of thinking
about this differently.
Who do you think's leading inthis space and moving in the
right direction?
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Yeah, I think this one's pretty widely known,
moderna.
I think it's one of the firstAI first companies.
That's why they reported thatTracy Franklin became the CHRO
and then they gave her IT, soshe has IT and HR, which I think
has been a really big test case.
We're going to find out.
I think something just happenedpretty similar.
It's serviced neither clients,by the way, but I've got friends
in both companies and Moderna,I think is really interesting.
(19:44):
I know Molly Nagler pretty well.
There They've built thecapability across the company to
build GPTs and the number ofGPTs that have been built across
the company, I'm not sure it'spublic, but it's a lot.
It's a lot more than most of ushave ever built.
So people are building GPTs foreverything across HR and using
that to supercharge their work,and I think that culture of
innovation, where people arethen feeling the opportunity to
(20:05):
go create something for theirspecific need, is where AI can
really be innovative andexciting and that's where I see
the next five years, peoplebuilding their own tools to do
things that they need thatmatches their business case and
what they do on a day-to-daybasis to add more value and be
faster.
I think that'll start to happenmore.
Other organizations I won't saythe name, but they have built
(20:26):
out a 50-person AI champion team.
They're all working across theorganization to learn.
They're investing in thedevelopment of that team and so
they're really saying hey,you're on the forefront of
thinking about use cases and howwe start to build this out.
Ibm is also on the forefront ofthis.
Salesforce has talked aboutthis.
They've got agents.
There's a lot of that stuffhappening but frankly, most
(20:48):
organizations are not doing thatmuch.
They put a chatbot in andthey're just now starting to
maybe use that chatbot andpeople are just starting to
figure out.
I can really help them tosupercharge my productivity, but
I haven't figured out how totransform TA or other areas.
We'll see.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
We are AI optimists over here as well, like just
thinking about the power ofpossibility and how that helps
us be more strategic and supportthe business.
But then you're also hearingsome of those headlines right
when you're thinking about newrole creation in HR, like some
of the problems that are poppingup.
We had a guest on a year ago,dwena Blondstrom, who talks
about the concept of human debtwith new technology and thinking
(21:26):
about strategically with newtechnology what new problems
might be created if you're notthoughtful in how you're
building these things.
So what advice would you giveto a CHRO who's considering
implementing AI and how toevaluate things so that you're
being strategic but you're alsomaking sure you're not creating
new long-term issues that mightpop up down the road?
(21:48):
One example of that the classaction lawsuit coming up for
workday.
So what advice would you giveto a CHRO trying to lead in that
space but also navigating someof the new issues that might pop
up as a result?
Speaker 1 (22:02):
It's a really great question.
I think it's more than just theCHRO's challenge.
It's the CEO's challenge, theboard's challenge of how do you
think about AI and use itresponsibly and ethically.
From an HR perspective, though,as we start to implement this,
we should be at the forefrontwith the CEO and the team, the
full C-suite team, not ITleading.
(22:22):
This is fundamentally AI's workredesign, it's task redesign.
It will change organizationalstructures and power potentially
over time, because it canreally empower you to have
information across theorganization you haven't had
before.
So I think the unintendedconsequences of AI if an
organization wants to movereally fast on this is it will
probably break down more silosand actually probably shake up
(22:46):
the power structure.
And there's a really greatarticle where they took AI and
they put it on to look atsystems across and data across
an organization.
That was business data.
It's like supply chain salesmarketing.
Initially it was like they weretrying to figure out a supply
chain problem, so they just gavethe data to supply chain.
Then they said, well, actuallylet's give data to marketing,
(23:07):
let's put the revenue data inthere, et cetera, and the
solutions it was coming up withand basically the gaps it was
finding was really across theorganization, and so what
happened was no one really knewwho owned and who should make
the decision, because it wasn'tsupply chain anymore, it wasn't
marketing decision.
The insights were hitting allthe way up to a CEO and breaking
down some of that org structure.
(23:28):
We're going to start to see AIgetting out of people's sandbox
and I think there'll be a lot ofhey, this is my data, my
protection.
That's probably one of thethings that will slow us down
From an ethical standpoint andlegal standpoint I'm not a legal
expert.
I think you've got to be reallythoughtful.
I think all of the good soundindustrial organizational
psychology of principles ofadverse impact and job analysis
(23:51):
all that stuff still appliesEfficacy, validity you should be
able to get in that sandbox andbe able to understand that.
But I think when you thinkabout generative AI, the
hallucinations are a feature,not a bug, and so we're really
talking about LLMs and othertypes of things that are a
little bit more structured.
But to use generative AI forsome of the stuff you're going
(24:12):
to get, I think bias in somethings.
You don't want out of that,because that's not.
That's really what it'sdesigned for.
When you get into the detailsof it.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
I want to go a little philosophical for a second, and
you might be asking, Francesca,why are you asking me this now?
But I'm genuinely curious.
Your answer, which is what isHR in the next three years?
What is it?
What is it going to be?
Speaker 1 (24:47):
We anticipate a lot of change in the world.
The world changes a lot.
People change slower and havechanged slower than we would
expect.
The world is changing veryquickly, but human nature and
people don't change.
Fundamentally, I see HR's role,which is very different than
finance, marketing, supply chain.
We all know what we can expectand what they're supposed to
deliver.
What HR has to deliver isharder.
It's more philosophical.
(25:08):
So I would define this and Ilearned this from Lucien Alzari,
who is a former CHR credential.
He said this that HR's role isto ensure the organization has
the talent and capabilities towin, and I thought it was the
most brilliant and smartest wayto talk about HR.
That's our job ensuring we havethe talent and capabilities to
win.
How do we do?
That is the hard part.
That's where this idea of theart and capabilities to win how
(25:33):
do we do?
That is the hard part.
That's where this idea of theart and science and who you are
as an HR leader and how we showup is really what makes the job
so hard and why we see highturnover.
Because you would approach itdifferently than I would
approach it and it starts tobecome not just are we using the
same tools.
We might use critical roles anddefine that the same way, or
talent acquisition or talentmanagement, whatever that stuff
is the same.
It's how we would approach thebusiness, how we frame it, how
(25:54):
we then get people behind themission of what we're doing
right and how we can get thatsupport to drive things from
behind the scenes, because we'renever actually in front.
And so I think for HR leadersand what HR is, we are there to
unlock that human potential intoactual capital and true value
and innovation that shareholdersand everyone can feel and
experience in terms ofmonetization.
(26:16):
So we have careers and we havejobs that could pay our bills
and send our kids to college andall those things.
But how we do that is verychallenging and that's probably
why, honestly, the idea ofbuilding HR capability is an
evergreen concept that's beenaround for a while, because it's
just so hard to do.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Yeah, it's ever evolving too.
When you think about the talentand the capabilities to win,
the conversation now becomes acombination of human and agenic
or human and AGI.
Right, Talent and capabilitiesgoes synthetic and goes human.
It builds this fascinatingconversation.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
Yeah, and I think a couple of things I've seen
recently, when there's so manygood platitudes that we should
put on coffee mugs or t-shirtsor on LinkedIn, right, this is
the last generation that willmanage just a human workforce to
just a human workforce Fair,probably, but I guess we could
say is our SaaS system?
Is that also a tool?
(27:12):
Is it my email a tool?
I know it's not thinking foritself.
However, we've used technologyfor a long time and HR's job is
not to deploy technology, it'sto solve business problems.
And so we have to continue tocome back to that with our
leaders and be like hey look,we're not more agentic AI, if
(27:34):
you want, or agents or whateverpeople want to say.
These are because there's a lotof definitions that aren't very
clear on that area.
We'll start to see that more,but is that any different than I
don't know running a script inWorkday?
I'm much more optimistic aboutthe future, but it does require
HR leaders and all of us to stepback and say how do I create
(27:56):
value?
And the way I used to createvalue is no longer valid and I
have to find a new way to createvalue.
And that is going to bechallenging because that
requires us to change more thanthe AI is going to change, and
so some people will be leftbehind because they can't adapt
to it.
But that's my thesis of wherewe go next.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Yeah, love it, love it.
Jp.
What is keeping you excitedabout this work right now For?
Speaker 1 (28:19):
me, I feel incredibly blessed that I've had the
support I've had launching myown company, be able to build it
and be able to keep the lightson and keep the kids fed and
everything like that and reallyhelp the industry.
And when people say to me hey,I love your podcast, it's made a
difference, or the program thatyou put together has made a
difference and you're doing goodthings for our field, that is
(28:40):
incredibly valuable.
So that keeps me excited.
It keeps me working the 60 plushours a week, probably closer
to 70.
A lot of times actually, it'sbeen pretty crazy, but that
keeps me excited about going andtrying to build a future that
we can have big impact.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
What's one piece of advice you'd give to a CHRO
who's stepping into the rolethis year?
Speaker 1 (29:00):
I'd say three things.
I'm going to go block andtackling, Build and manage
relationships at the board andCEO and C-suite level.
That is your number one job.
Number two learn that businesscold right, Get in there.
Number three deliver a win forthat CEO in the first 90 days to
get on their good side.
And number four is figure outhow AI is going to help you
(29:24):
elevate and continue to getcloser to that.
That's for every HR leader, butthose are the three things that
matter the most.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
JP, we like to wrap it around where you can respond
with one word or a statement.
Sometimes these go longer thanthat, and that's totally fine.
But are you game a little rapidround?
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Let's do it.
Speaker 3 (29:50):
Okay, it's 2030.
What's work going to look like?
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Oh, wow, 2030.
Guess what the work's going tolook.
A lot the same.
What's not changing that muchin five years?
Sorry, it hasn't changed in along time.
We've been using an office forprobably 50 years or so, and we
still think that's really greattechnology.
It's outdated, but we still usethe office right, and we're
returning to work, so I think itwill be the same, as politics,
(30:15):
power, return to office andhybrid will still be a debate,
because that's the newperformance management.
What will be new, though, is Ithink there'll be more
innovation happening.
I think innovation in terms ofAI.
I think they'll have to reallyfind more innovative workers.
People will have an opportunityto do more and create more with
AI that we haven't in the past,and so I think it's going to
have creative uprising, if youwill.
(30:36):
I think there'll be a lot moregig workers.
I think more and more peoplewill go on their own, start
their own companies and provideservice to other larger
companies, so I think theecosystem of work will shift a
little bit that way, but fiveyears, it's just not far enough
out to predict.
I don't know, maybe 15, 20years it could be radically
different, but it's hard to say.
Five feels like it'll still becloser to today than the Jetsons
(30:57):
.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
Okay, it's fair.
It's fair, so people don't needto run for the hills just yet.
With all the flashy headlinesgoing on, all right.
What's one thing aboutcorporate culture?
You'd like to just see diealready.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Oh, I'd love for us to get rid of pseudo
productivity, the idea that myjob is showing up on meetings
but not producing any work.
Yeah, I think we need to getback to where I'm responsible
for delivering something, a realwork product, instead of
showing up on calls to talkabout the work that we're not
actually doing or responding toemails about the work that we're
(31:33):
going to do, and that's really.
This is a Cal Newport concept,but I think pseudo productivity
is actually what holds back realproductivity in organizations,
and so, unfortunately, it's ahard one to get rid of.
But I really wish we could getto that point, because I think
it can be pretty powerful foractually all delivering the work
we expect and understand how wecreate value.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
Yeah, get rid of the meeting for the meeting for the
other meeting and then thedebrief after the meeting.
What do you think the greatestopportunity is that most
organizations are missing out onright now?
Speaker 1 (32:08):
I think it's more that individuals are missing out
on a big opportunity and thatis your current job is the most
overlooked career opportunity inthe world.
Most people, when we thinkabout their next job and their
career, they look externally Iwant this new role, I want to go
here and be promoted.
What they fail to see isthey're actually in a company
and have an opportunity andtruly a laboratory for growth.
(32:30):
You have relationships, youknow the business, you have a
role and now the opportunity isto make and design a job that
you love.
And so go to your manager, goto your leaders and say I see an
opportunity to make adifference and make that
difference and design and buildthe capabilities you want to
build internally.
We just too often look otherplaces.
The grass is not always greener.
(32:51):
There's a huge opportunity tomake a bigger difference where
you're at.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Yeah, what music are you listening to right now?
Speaker 1 (33:00):
I'm listening to the Weeknd.
We're going to go to the Weekndconcert here in September, so
that's been on the familyplaylist, so that's cool.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
Okay, okay, what are you reading?
Audiobooks count, by the way.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
The book I most recently have read is the Lean
Product Playbook, and so I'vebeen reading a lot more about
product management recently andgetting into that.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Okay, who do you really admire?
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Oh man, that's a good one.
I think about my dad a lotrecently because I've been
writing some posts about him and, for whatever reason, he's come
back up, and so my dad is justsomeone who I've really thought
a lot about.
He passed when I was 30.
So it's been many years sincehe's passed, but he's someone I
admired for helping me to becomewho I am today and the impact
he had on just who I am overall.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
He was a gumball.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Yeah, we saw that.
Yeah, so that did pretty wellon LinkedIn.
Yeah, so he ran the gumballmachine business.
He was a really interesting andcollected guy.
He had a PhD in economics andhad done sales and actually was
a pilot for an airline at onepoint.
It was in the Air Force and thengot into the gumball machine
business and he liked buildingthe gumball machines and
(34:10):
tinkering and so he taught mehow to locate gumball machines
when I was 15 years old and theconversation the dad comment
that he taught me back then wasI was like I'm never going to be
able to buy this truck and Iwanted to buy a truck at 15.
So my dad said look, you wantthis truck, we'll buy it for you
, but you have to now pay usback.
It was $4,000 at the time.
And he said pay us back andI'll teach you how to locate gun
(34:32):
machines, but you have to paythe entire truck off to drive it
.
So my truck actually sat therefor a year and a half while I
drove a really bad truck thatwas like a beat up old work
truck to go do and put thesevending machines out.
And I remember saying to himI'm never going to make enough
money.
And I was like, how am I goingto do this?
And he basically was like JP,you'll make money how we make
money, which is one gumball at atime, which is one quarter at a
(34:53):
time, and that was just astatement that he would say to
me all the time.
It was probably a little bitover the top, but it got beat
into my head around that and soit just stuck with me, this idea
of one gumball at a time.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
I like it.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
What's a piece of advice that you've received that
you wish everyone had?
Speaker 1 (35:11):
In the age of everyone having opinions,
including myself and all of us Ithink number one is consider
the source.
So when you think about takingadvice from somebody, have they
done it?
Have they been there?
Have they sat in the seat?
And so for me, I really want toknow if I'm taking advice.
You at least have been similarsituation to my shoes Too often.
(35:32):
There's a lot of advice nowthat is almost pseudo advice
that someone actually hasn'tbeen in the seat, they don't
know what it's like and we'repontificating, but the reality
is it depends always matters onadvice.
So my best advice is justconsider the source, be
thoughtful and think about howit really applies to you and
whether or not that adviceactually is relevant or not.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
Yeah, I think that's sound right.
We talk about that all the time.
Francesca and I were evensaying don't take advice from,
don't take criticism even fromsomeone you want to take advice
from, and being in the seat isso critically important.
There's a lot out there wherepeople haven't experienced it at
all or haven't experienced itat the scale Right yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
The criticism one's really good because someone
could throw a dagger at us andgive us feedback.
Yeah, but really does it matter?
Is that really the feedback Ishould listen to?
Is it going to be helpful forme or not?
I think that's a good point, atleast a good lens to put on,
not just take every piece offeedback you get.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Where can people follow you and where can they
sign up for your program?
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Thanks for asking.
Linkedin, of course, probablywhere I think a lot of us spend
our time.
So LinkedIn.
And then, if you want to go tofutureofhrcom, you can find out
about my newsletter, the NextGenHR Accelerator program, et
cetera, and check out thepodcast.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Thanks, JP.
Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Thank you both.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
This episode was produced, edited and all things
by us myself, mel Plett andFrancesca Rennery.
Our music is by Pink Zebra andif you like this, please rate
and subscribe.
We'd really appreciate it.
That helps keep us going.
Take care, friends.
Bye friends, bye friends, byefriends.
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Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.