May 30, 2024 • 27 mins
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What unique challenges do military veterans face when transitioning into civilian life, and how can mental health professionals better support them? This episode features Kenneth, the Assistant Dean of the Online MSW Program at Syracuse University, who brings his extensive experience from the military and mental health sectors to our discussion. Kenneth opens up about his journey, from earning his graduate degree at the University of Pennsylvania to his various impactful roles in the Air Force. We explore his commitment to bridging the gap in mental health care for veterans, particularly those facing homelessness, and the critical need for military cultural competency among providers.
Our conversation takes a deeper look at the innovative partnership between Syracuse University and Cabana, which seeks to enhance mental health support for veterans through comprehensive services and internships. Kenneth and Kristine illuminate the importance of personalized care, meeting clients where they are, and utilizing technological advancements to break down barriers to mental health access. We also discuss the importance of community and support networks for individuals facing invisible struggles and the vital role of professional dedication in fostering a stigma-free environment.
Cabana Pods offers a therapeutic experience through immersive reality, focusing on emotional resilience. Research shows that immersive technologies tailored to one’s needs can immediately positively change well-being, mood, stress relief, and mindfulness.
Learn more about Cabana pods at https://www.yourcabana.com/pod
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome back to You're Always Fine a space to
show up for yourself and embracethe mess that lives underneath.
Because, let's be real, it'sexhausting always being fine.
So grab your headphones andallow yourself to listen, laugh
and even cry, because you arenot alone.
And we aren't always fine, andthat's okay.
And we aren't always fine, andthat's okay.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
How can military experience and a passion for
innovation shape the future ofsocial work?
Well, today you are in for adouble treat.
First, let's welcome back guesthost and head of public sector
here at Cabana, Nick Armstrong.
Nick, thanks for coming backand helping me with this episode
.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Hey Christine, it's great to be back.
I'm fired up for this one.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Me too.
So we're excited to sit downwith the Assistant Dean of the
Online MSW Program, kenneth, aveteran committed to pioneering
change in the mental healthspace.
Welcome to, you're Always Fine.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Yeah, happy to be here, Christine.
Thanks for having me.
Hello, nick, what's going?
Speaker 3 (01:04):
on Ken.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
So I know that you guys know each other really well
, but could you tell ourlisteners and myself a little
bit about yourself and your workhere in the mental health space
?
Speaker 4 (01:15):
Yeah, sure, so, yeah.
So I'm the assistant dean hereat Ball College of Online and
Distance Education, overseeingour online graduate programs,
overseeing our online graduateprograms.
I'm also an associate teachingprofessor in the School of
Social Work.
My journey began really ingraduate school when I received
a direct admission under theHealth Professional Scholarship
Program while I was at theUniversity of Pennsylvania where
(01:36):
I received my master's andclinical doctorate degree.
There I did some work withveterans experiencing
homelessness and also working onthe VA inpatient psychiatric
unit.
Post-graduation I went off tocommissioned officer training
with other mental health andmedical providers that will be
serving on active duty in theAir Force, and my work in the
(01:57):
Department of Defense as anactive duty Air Force officer
and mental health providerreally was comprised of three
elements.
First element was traditionalmental health or psychotherapy,
so seeing anywhere between fourto six, eight primarily active
duty airmen a day, ranging fromsituational stressors,
adjustment related issues,depression, post-traumatic
(02:20):
stress disorder, et cetera.
Then the other element wasreferred to as ADAPT and that
stands for Alcohol Drug AbusePrevention and Treatment Program
.
So I was the element lead forthat and that would be anything
from a self-referral so anairman who might be experiencing
some challenges with alcoholuse or misuse to a medical
(02:43):
referral from a provider in themed group or also, you know,
coming from law enforcement ormilitary, police or
command-directed evaluations.
For, again, a range of issues,different levels of treatment,
from prevention to individualtreatment, group treatment to
potentially inpatient treatment,and the final element is
(03:05):
referred to as family advocacyprogram and we deal with child
and adult maltreatment, anythingfrom emotional abuse, physical
abuse, sexual abuse, neglect, etcetera.
So, yeah, there's sort of thethree elements.
Obviously, military service,there's ancillary duties that
continue to pop up disastermental health response or
(03:25):
resiliency element, or briefingcommanders or new individuals to
the installation sort ofprevention and outreach.
I transitioned out in 2016,.
Christine and I began working,moved back to the Northeast,
began working at the Syracuse VAMedical Center as director of
the housing and urbandevelopment VA supportive
(03:45):
housing so sort of full circlewhere I started serving veteran
populations, served alongsideactive duty members in mental
health arena and then beganserving veterans experiencing
homelessness in upstate centralNew York region.
And now I teach on the contenthere at Syracuse University,
which is my course on militaryculture, mental health practice,
(04:06):
and also engage in additionalresearch and scholarship in the
area.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
So you know really just no experience at all, is
what I heard.
What about you, nick?
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Well, I'm just, I'm just reflecting on the time that
I first met Ken.
Maybe it must have been likeright when you came over to SU.
It must have been like rightwhen you came over to SU, um
were introduced by my formerboss Um.
(04:39):
And then sort of thinking abouthow, how, how great it's been,
uh, to work with Ken um in mypast role, now in in in this
current, this currentpartnership, that we were going
to talk a little bit more aboutUm.
You know, I think we gotstarted working a little bit
around this idea of militarycultural competency and like
there'd been some research inthe past about this being a big
challenge in the broader mentalhealth and behavioral health
space and sort of watch, ken andyou know, sort of work on those
, work on that, specificallyboth from an education
(05:02):
standpoint but also from aprovider training standpoint,
specifically both from aneducation standpoint but also
from a provider trainingstandpoint, you know.
And then you know, fast forwardto today, you know, working
with Ken, with Cabana, and sortof bringing that into all that
we do.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
I'm just really excited about that partnership
Before we head there.
I just have one question foryou, Ken, and that is because I
do think, as a provider, one oflike the things that I was maybe
thrown into was having peoplewho were transitioning off on my
caseload because, like I justso happened to be the provider
that took their insurance ormaybe not the best match, but
kind of their force into it.
And I love this idea because itwas never spoken about.
(05:43):
I went to a great school at NYUbut we never talked about the
differences in population or howa subset that could need so
much support, how to handle thatas a provider.
It's a little bit differentthan just rapport building or
the tools that you have.
So I'd just be curious if youcould talk a little bit about
that and kind of how you'retrying to shape that space for
(06:06):
better care for these people whoput yeah, sure, great, great
question.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
That's what became my mission, based off of my
experiences too, christine.
So I can certainly relate tothat, given that you know, field
education is the signaturepedagogy of social work
profession.
I think coupling the academiccoursework with the field work
is crucial to the success of thestudent but also, ultimately,
the outcomes for the client,right, and so what I experienced
(06:34):
um at my graduate institution,to your point, is, I had some of
that field work, but as far asthe content, that that was
lacking, right, and there's someprogramming across across the U
S um that touches on theseareas, certainly, but that was
my mission was to ultimatelypropose this here at Gueslake.
Here's been my experience.
This is why this is important.
The VA is one of the largestemployers of LMSWs in the nation
(06:58):
, if not the largest, and so wecan really complement the field
experiences with this work inthe classroom.
And so many of my students goon to work in Department of
Defense, work in the VA, work incommunity agencies, you know,
just like this, commanding someof the work that we're doing,
and I think that course at leastassists them in their journey.
(07:22):
Right, and really sort ofhighlighting some of the work
that they can do based on theskill set that they have gained
here at the institution.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
And it's so true.
I feel like when you're goingthrough the classes like you're
like when am I ever going to usethis?
And then next thing you knowlike something in your career
will just like line up justright and you're like, oh wow,
I'm really glad that, like I hadsomething in my bank to go back
to.
But, nick, it's been a whilesince you've been on the show a
little over maybe not a year,anyway a while and you've been
(07:55):
kind of hitting the groundrunning in our public sector and
stuff.
Could you explain a little bitabout like partnerships and what
you're trying to do and how weeven got into the place where we
have Kenneth on our show?
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Sure.
So on the public sector side,we're, you know, continuing to
deepen our relationship with theVA.
We've got some exciting newwork supporting both, not just
veterans through the SuicidePrevention Grand Challenge work,
but also VA employee wholehealth, so providing cabanas a
(08:30):
support to clinicians and VAstaff.
But, you know, additionallywe're starting to launch a few
partnerships with state agenciesand some nonprofits.
One just recently with thestate of Virginia.
Their Department of VeteransServices has their own peer
support function, their own peersupport function, and so
(08:57):
bringing additional partnershipsto bear, like with Ken and
Syracuse University, gives usadditional expertise and
capacity to support thoseengagements where they're
providing services and outreachrecovery support to veterans,
family members, guard andReservists across states.
And so as we start to expandour access to, you know, live
(09:20):
support groups, you know we haveKen his team to sort of tap
into that.
So that's really exciting tosort of build that.
But also, just generallyspeaking, like higher ed, is a,
is a, is an important, you know,aspect of our partnering.
You know we want to continue toto measure and show that we're
(09:40):
impacting the lives of othersand, you know, forming
partnerships with SyracuseUniversity, you know which, you
know, although I'm biasedbecause I came from Syracuse
University myself well, the bestplace for veterans trademark
trademark, and so to have apartnership with an institution
that is aligned with where wewant to go as a company.
(10:02):
It's just a win-win.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
I mean, while I did go to NYU, I will say that
Syracuse is a fine universityand it's in my backyard.
Kenneth, from your perspective,what are your thoughts on this
partnership?
I mean, I think when you're inthe field and you see like
actual innovation happening, Iknow for me it's really really
exciting.
It's why I really loved Cabana.
But just from kind of your roleand where you sit, I know
innovation is important to you.
(10:25):
What do you see as like thehighlights of this partnership
for the work you do and then thefuture of the field?
Speaker 4 (10:32):
Yeah, I think when Nick first we just had a brief
meeting, he first went over toCabana and you know I saw an
immediate fit, right to hispoint Syracuse University and
our strategic plan to be thebest place for vets.
So we have now students who aregoing to be able to intern with
you, christine, you know atCabana that are then also
simultaneously serving veteranpopulations in many ways, and
(10:54):
then also our staff, right, asNick mentioned, some of our
internship placementcoordinators who are out there
day in and day out willunderstand the field, who are
working with students and alsoassist in some of this training
support, whether that'scurriculum development or even
hopping on a call and moderatinga session.
Right, and so we're looking atthis as a multifaceted
partnership.
Beyond continuing to sort ofassess the program, right, maybe
(11:15):
engaging some level of researcharound this, and I think that
that's you know what apartnership is is truly all
about.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
I couldn't agree more .
A lot of times when you seethese partnerships, you see a
lot of I don't know likeinsurance company and mental
health tech company and you'relike, ah, not sure like what
kind of partnership that is, butto see something that I feel
like in so many ways is helpingso many people by two
institutions coming togetherlike this is really, really
exciting.
And I don't know about fromyour experience, but from my
(11:42):
experience, not something I seeoften.
You know, a lot of times Ithink, right, it's like you've
got your veteran social work,you've got your this social work
, you've got your this socialwork, and that can be difficult.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
Yeah, for sure, I think.
On the innovation piece, what Ireally like, too, is that our
students are going to have to beaware of the rapidly evolving
technological advancements and,specifically, as it pertains to
what does that mean in thebehavioral and mental health
space, right, and the beauty ofthis partnership and what you're
all doing is that it trulymeans the client where they are.
Right, so, like, if noteverything needs to be a 60 to
(12:16):
90 minute traditionalpsychotherapy session, right, so
it could be focused onprevention.
Right, it could be focused on,you know, some level of
mindfulness.
Right, you can engage inclinical work if needed on this
platform, but again, the sort of, given that humans are complex
and there's many nuances, right,there might be an individual
who benefits from a weekly30-minute peer support group
(12:38):
that doesn't necessarily need tohave intensive, if you will,
mental health treatment, and sothat's both good for the future
clinicians or future, you know,direct practice professionals to
know and understand how tonavigate the sort of, again,
innovative technologicaladvancements and how it can be
useful for their clients butalso directly serving the
clients as they're growing andlearning throughout this
(13:00):
experience.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
It's so refreshing, though, to hear, too, like a
dean at a predominant universitysaying that, because I feel
like when I got out of school,it was like this is how you do
therapy.
And a lot of times I feel likea rule breaker, because I very
much believe in like where thisperson is at and like
accommodating what they need toconstitute therapy, like it's my
job to monitor what I'm doingand all that.
But if they need a 30 sessionthis week, like I'm not making
(13:22):
them stay 90 minutes, I think itis such a personalized thing,
and if we can bring thatpersonalization to more people
with more access, like that'sjust exciting.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
If I could jump into the question for Ken or
Christine, do you thinkleveraging a platform like this,
like how novel is that inhigher ed today, in education
and training?
Speaker 4 (13:44):
Yeah, well, I haven't seen too many platforms like
this, nick.
You know I've seen telehealthright.
A lot of this could be, youknow, if it's private practice
could be a secure Zoom linkright, especially in this half
quite a bit during COVID.
I know that we are doing someof this work in the VA, but I
think this is a bit more unique,especially as you talk about
the confidentiality and maybeyou could expand on that a bit
(14:07):
more and the anonymity right ofof really low stakes being able
to engage with others.
You know, no fear of judgmentor reprisal in any any way, and
again, that might be door thatopens where it's wow, that felt
good to have that type ofconversation and it could lead
to okay, now I'm ready to maybeengage with a therapist or some
(14:30):
group level work, whether thatbe again in the community or in
the VA situations that we'retalking about.
So I think it breaks down somepotential barriers that might've
existed prior.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
Yeah, I mean that's really the reason we exist.
I mean we're all about creatingprivate spaces for better,
easier mental health access,whether it's a virtual or a
physical type of environment,and sort of overcoming those
stigmas through whateverfeatures.
We can meet the individualwhere they're at but also give
(15:04):
them control over how much oftheir you know their
circumstances they wanted toreveal either with a provider or
amongst their peers.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
Yeah, and I like how it's not sort of this like one
size fits all approach, right,and you know I can see how I'm
used to poking around theplatform.
It might be useful, you know,for myself or for an
organization to use it in theirown way to assist with their
employees, right, and sort ofpositive organizational culture,
while again also using it for,potentially, with their clients,
(15:38):
and so two way street and senseof reciprocity there.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
And I'm always a big believer.
If I wouldn't use it, then Ihave no business being on here
telling other people to use it.
We all are going to have ourdays, our ups and our downs, but
I want to make sure that whenI'm creating content and things,
it's things that I would do.
Maybe not every single thingwould work for me, but again, we
have to use the platformbecause we're all just people,
we're all just humans and ourcircumstances are going to
(16:04):
change at different times.
Additionally, I love when yousaid about preventative care,
because we don't talk about that.
We don't talk about theeveryday thing you do to keep
mental wellness well or to keepyour mental health baseline.
It's a lot about when it hitsthat precipice and we can do a
lot before then.
(16:25):
And I think, too, that's a hugepart of access is telling
people it doesn't have to get toa certain level of bad for you
to invest in that practice everyday.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
I agree.
I think you know, you might allagree with me that we're a
relatively reactive society.
So taking that approach earlyon, understanding that social
support is one of the greatestprotective factors, having what
will sort of like wrap aroundservices and again, this social
support can come in many shapesand sizes, right.
But here's another avenue forthis and this platform does it.
(16:57):
And again, many use cases,right.
So I've talked with staffmembers here who said, oh, this
would be really useful for ourgraduate students to get
together in this forum,confidential, anonymous, not
necessarily clinical work right,but just talking about their
experiences and being able tosupport one another without
having a faculty member therewhere they might feel they're
(17:17):
judged.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
I mean, I say that now as a provider, how am I
going to handle this?
To your point about, just, Ithink, as a graduate, right, I
felt so woefully underprepared,not because of my education, but
you just you're hit withsomething new every single day
and some other way to navigateit.
And I don't know if you'vethought about this, but I
thought about how great would itbe if I had something to give
like this between my sessions,like how much faster could a
(17:39):
client who was struggling getthrough that struggle if they
had this in-between supportwhere I could like check in in
some ways if they wanted toshare with me, but also know
that like they're not going tohave to wait a whole week before
they're like in front of meagain for that traditional yeah,
you know, it's like a, you know, like booster sessions in many
ways, christine right, I love
Speaker 5 (17:58):
that.
Speaker 4 (18:00):
Having that tap into a booster session for your next
appointment with your therapist.
It also just allows them tocontinue working on themselves,
right?
That ultimately leads to somelevel of growth and change.
If they're only working onthemselves when they're coming
to see you for 60 minutes a week, or every two weeks, or that
once a month, right, then what'sactually happening between
(18:22):
sessions, right?
Are we actually implementingwhat we're talking about?
And I think, at your point,this is another use case to aid
the therapist, to ultimatelyhelp client or clients.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Without burning them out too right, because I'm sure
you see that a ton, I think,especially when you're just
getting out and you want to doso much good in the world, it's
a tough, those are toughboundaries when you have so much
of people's vulnerabilities inyour hand.
I know I wasn't prepared, but Ithink more and more experiences
like this that challenge us tothink outside the way we've done
it.
Because, to your point, I thinkearlier in the episode you had
(18:55):
said the Zoom or like a lot ofplatforms are meant for like
mass therapists, right, like aportal of therapists, but not
really doing anything differentin the actual delivery of
service, as opposed to likeliterally making it so you can
jump on your phone.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
Yeah, I think the flexibility, the you know being
when it's accessible and, again,in many ways tailored to you,
right?
So, being able to select whichgroup that you might fit, you
know you might have someexperience in or that you want
to gain additional experience in, and, again, it goes two ways,
right?
So, if you're a provider, andyou often say early in school is
(19:35):
that it might be beneficial tosee your own therapist to
understand how theseinteractions occur, that you can
then best talk to clients.
Well, this is one of thoseopportunities, christine, where
a student might be able toengage this platform to assist
them with their growth as aprovider.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
I was so resistant to that in grad school I was like
I don't need a therapist, I'mgoing to be a therapist.
Little did I know, but theywouldn't let you graduate unless
you, like you did a littleAnyway.
So I would highly recommend.
It's so true because you knowyou don't realize how, like,
even when it's not your stuff,how weighing it gets, and when
you're faced with a lot ofproblems.
Probably similarly to like themilitary, where you feel like a
(20:13):
lot of times your hands are tied, there's only so much I can do,
I can't save you from yourself.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
Military, this is like mid to late 00s so 2006 to
2008, and just how we all copedwith that transition and having
(20:40):
had a tool or platform like this, I think could have been much
more helpful for myself andothers you know sort of
overcoming the mentality of youknow to more helpful uh for
myself and others.
You know of sort of overcomingthe mentality of you know.
To your point, christine, Idon't need a therapist, like I'm
, I'm good but sort ofreflecting 10 years now, like I
was very hypervigilant and justjust still sought out peers, but
(21:03):
in a different way, if therewere some.
Uh, just the ability to um, toreach out and connect in
something I threw throughthrough a platform where, uh, I
didn't feel like I was uhbearing it all.
You know pretty, pretty big.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
Yeah, I would echo Nick's statement there.
You know, transition can beextremely challenging.
Especially it can becomeisolating.
You're with a group ofindividuals that you spent a
great deal of time with and beensort of challenges and adverse
situations, and all of a suddenit's like, all right, you go
your separate ways across thecountry, right?
What does it mean to connect?
And again, it might notnecessarily need to be that
(21:42):
individual, but someone who hasa similar experience.
There is power in that, there'spower in connection and
certainly assist in what youwere talking about prevention of
more severe mental healthdisorders.
Christine.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
It's interesting because obviously I'm not a vet,
but I have a rare disease andone of the things that saved my
life during the diagnosis periodwas I grew up in the age of you
, did not talk to strangers.
Strangers are bad, but theybecame my lifeline because you
look like everything's okay onthe outside, right, like you're
the same Nick, you're the sameKen, you're the same Christine,
but everything has changed onthe inside.
(22:14):
Things are just different and Ithink it's really hard to
explain.
But when you guys are talkingabout it, it feels like it hits
that bone inside of me offeeling like I'm drowning on my
words because I don't know howto explain to you what I've
experienced or what's going on.
And there's a level of I thinkpeople expect you to kind of
(22:35):
just transition right or justthe version of you that they
know, or it tends to be theversion that they pick up on and
that can be really, really, Ithink, isolating and alone and
in general.
So having that space where youcan even connect or not
connecting with the people whoyou're used to connecting to,
yeah, it sounds like a similarexperience.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
Yeah, I think this idea that you're not alone,
right, you feel again reallyisolating, whether it's what you
were referring to what Nick'sreferring to, and sometimes it's
actually a normal reaction toan abnormal situation.
However, you feel some sense ofabnormality if those individuals
around you aren't feeling thatway.
Right?
So, bringing the collectivetogether.
There's strength in seekinghelp, but there's also strength
(23:11):
in wanting to help others, right?
So again, you can get to aplace where, hey, I did
experience this.
Hey, I tried this out.
Would you like to come alongwith me and give it a shot?
Speaker 2 (23:22):
You become somebody else's survival guide in this
weird way, if that's the pathyou choose to take.
I've got one last question foryou, Kenneth, and that is for
people who might be listening,that may be struggling, avoiding
or resistance to seeking asupport like therapy or like
cabana.
What would be one piece ofadvice you would give them to
like take with them?
Speaker 4 (23:41):
I mean, it might just start as something as small, as
like calling a friend, right,like, is there an individual, a
trusted source out there thatyou believe has your best
interest in mind, and justtalking to them again, no
judgment, this isn't a provider,right?
This is someone that you trustand then say, hey, well, you
know there's this resource atCabana that I was notified about
(24:02):
.
Or, to your point, I know thatthe VA has told me that you know
there's this resource and I'mresistant, and I'm really.
Or to your point, um, I knowthat the VA has told me that you
know there's this resource andI'm resistant and really wanted
to be like, okay, where's thatresistance coming from, right?
Um, but I think just being ableto verbalize it, uh, as a first
step, is important, and thenalso understand that, like the
(24:22):
individuals that we talked about, the students that were
training the folks in the fieldtruly do have veterans, military
populations, civilians andbeyond.
They're best, interested, hardand are there to help.
However, if you don't comeright, it's very difficult for
us to help in that process, andso I guess the long and short of
(24:45):
it is Christine, phone a friendand understand that there's a
whole team of individuals thatare ready to help when you're
ready.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
I love that so much because it is so true.
My clients will often say abouthow, oh, I feel like I'm
talking to a friend and I'm like, good, you should feel the ease
and the comfort of that.
And I think, too, what you saidabout there's so many of us out
here who want to help and, youknow, taking that step and, yeah
, you might get someone thatisn't a great fit, but try again
(25:14):
, just because they weren't theright person for you.
I think that's one of thethings that COVID definitely did
open up for us, which is youcan find a provider that works
for you, find a space that feelsright.
Speaker 4 (25:26):
And I think that's normal too, right, like not
every individual, I mean justhuman dynamics in general, right
, and how we gravitate towardscertain individuals and things
that we can relate to.
So if it doesn't feel like agreat fit again, that's not
abnormal, it's actually normalcyto that and it's also telling
you information and I think thatcritically evaluating, thinking
(25:46):
about why wasn't thatindividual a good fit for me?
And not necessarily projectingonto that individual or yourself
right, but navigating.
Okay, what is that?
What's going on in my own lifethat I'm feeling this sense of
way?
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Exactly and being okay with.
I think I don't get offended.
I'd be curious if you do.
But like the therapist shopping, like I'd rather you find
someone that you want that aregoing to do the hard work.
You know what I mean Then,because it will come out in our
work together.
Don't push yourself into asituation because you think, oh,
I'm therapist shopping or Ihave to make this work.
It's okay to take care ofyourself.
Speaker 4 (26:18):
Yes, great.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Nick Kenneth, thank you both so much for being on
the show with me.
I'm extremely excited for thispartnership and also to get to
work alongside both of you,creating a space that I don't
think really exists yet, notonly for the field, but like the
future providers and the futureof the field.
I think that's like a reallycool thing to be impacting.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
Yeah, thank you, christine, excited about the
partnership, and thanks forhaving me on.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
This is great, christine.
Thanks, ken, appreciate thetime.
I'm really excited about thisas well.
Great advice too.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
I know we're keeping that one.
That's all for this episode.
Interested in today's guest ortopic Text us.
Use the link on the top of yourshow notes to text the show.
We love to hear from you.
We'll be back next week with abrand new episode.
Until then, you're always fine.
Speaker 5 (27:03):
Seriously, you're fine.
You're fine because you havethe power to access your place
of peace anytime you need it.
However, if you get stuck,we're right at the palm of your
hand to help.
Check out our show notes forthis week's Source List,
recommended Content and CabanaLive Group Schedule.
We'll catch you next week for abrand new episode of You're
(27:23):
Always Fine.
Welcome back to You're Always Fine a space to
show up for yourself and embracethe mess that lives underneath.
Because, let's be real, it'sexhausting always being fine.
So grab your headphones andallow yourself to listen, laugh
and even cry, because you arenot alone.
And we aren't always fine, andthat's okay.
And we aren't always fine, andthat's okay.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
How can military experience and a passion for
innovation shape the future ofsocial work?
Well, today you are in for adouble treat.
First, let's welcome back guesthost and head of public sector
here at Cabana, Nick Armstrong.
Nick, thanks for coming backand helping me with this episode
.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Hey Christine, it's great to be back.
I'm fired up for this one.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Me too.
So we're excited to sit downwith the Assistant Dean of the
Online MSW Program, kenneth, aveteran committed to pioneering
change in the mental healthspace.
Welcome to, you're Always Fine.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Yeah, happy to be here, Christine.
Thanks for having me.
Hello, nick, what's going?
Speaker 3 (01:04):
on Ken.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
So I know that you guys know each other really well
, but could you tell ourlisteners and myself a little
bit about yourself and your workhere in the mental health space
?
Speaker 4 (01:15):
Yeah, sure, so, yeah.
So I'm the assistant dean hereat Ball College of Online and
Distance Education, overseeingour online graduate programs,
overseeing our online graduateprograms.
I'm also an associate teachingprofessor in the School of
Social Work.
My journey began really ingraduate school when I received
a direct admission under theHealth Professional Scholarship
Program while I was at theUniversity of Pennsylvania where
(01:36):
I received my master's andclinical doctorate degree.
There I did some work withveterans experiencing
homelessness and also working onthe VA inpatient psychiatric
unit.
Post-graduation I went off tocommissioned officer training
with other mental health andmedical providers that will be
serving on active duty in theAir Force, and my work in the
(01:57):
Department of Defense as anactive duty Air Force officer
and mental health providerreally was comprised of three
elements.
First element was traditionalmental health or psychotherapy,
so seeing anywhere between fourto six, eight primarily active
duty airmen a day, ranging fromsituational stressors,
adjustment related issues,depression, post-traumatic
(02:20):
stress disorder, et cetera.
Then the other element wasreferred to as ADAPT and that
stands for Alcohol Drug AbusePrevention and Treatment Program
.
So I was the element lead forthat and that would be anything
from a self-referral so anairman who might be experiencing
some challenges with alcoholuse or misuse to a medical
(02:43):
referral from a provider in themed group or also, you know,
coming from law enforcement ormilitary, police or
command-directed evaluations.
For, again, a range of issues,different levels of treatment,
from prevention to individualtreatment, group treatment to
potentially inpatient treatment,and the final element is
(03:05):
referred to as family advocacyprogram and we deal with child
and adult maltreatment, anythingfrom emotional abuse, physical
abuse, sexual abuse, neglect, etcetera.
So, yeah, there's sort of thethree elements.
Obviously, military service,there's ancillary duties that
continue to pop up disastermental health response or
(03:25):
resiliency element, or briefingcommanders or new individuals to
the installation sort ofprevention and outreach.
I transitioned out in 2016,.
Christine and I began working,moved back to the Northeast,
began working at the Syracuse VAMedical Center as director of
the housing and urbandevelopment VA supportive
(03:45):
housing so sort of full circlewhere I started serving veteran
populations, served alongsideactive duty members in mental
health arena and then beganserving veterans experiencing
homelessness in upstate centralNew York region.
And now I teach on the contenthere at Syracuse University,
which is my course on militaryculture, mental health practice,
(04:06):
and also engage in additionalresearch and scholarship in the
area.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
So you know really just no experience at all, is
what I heard.
What about you, nick?
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Well, I'm just, I'm just reflecting on the time that
I first met Ken.
Maybe it must have been likeright when you came over to SU.
It must have been like rightwhen you came over to SU, um
were introduced by my formerboss Um.
(04:39):
And then sort of thinking abouthow, how, how great it's been,
uh, to work with Ken um in mypast role, now in in in this
current, this currentpartnership, that we were going
to talk a little bit more aboutUm.
You know, I think we gotstarted working a little bit
around this idea of militarycultural competency and like
there'd been some research inthe past about this being a big
challenge in the broader mentalhealth and behavioral health
space and sort of watch, ken andyou know, sort of work on those
, work on that, specificallyboth from an education
(05:02):
standpoint but also from aprovider training standpoint,
specifically both from aneducation standpoint but also
from a provider trainingstandpoint, you know.
And then you know, fast forwardto today, you know, working
with Ken, with Cabana, and sortof bringing that into all that
we do.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
I'm just really excited about that partnership
Before we head there.
I just have one question foryou, Ken, and that is because I
do think, as a provider, one oflike the things that I was maybe
thrown into was having peoplewho were transitioning off on my
caseload because, like I justso happened to be the provider
that took their insurance ormaybe not the best match, but
kind of their force into it.
And I love this idea because itwas never spoken about.
(05:43):
I went to a great school at NYUbut we never talked about the
differences in population or howa subset that could need so
much support, how to handle thatas a provider.
It's a little bit differentthan just rapport building or
the tools that you have.
So I'd just be curious if youcould talk a little bit about
that and kind of how you'retrying to shape that space for
(06:06):
better care for these people whoput yeah, sure, great, great
question.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
That's what became my mission, based off of my
experiences too, christine.
So I can certainly relate tothat, given that you know, field
education is the signaturepedagogy of social work
profession.
I think coupling the academiccoursework with the field work
is crucial to the success of thestudent but also, ultimately,
the outcomes for the client,right, and so what I experienced
(06:34):
um at my graduate institution,to your point, is, I had some of
that field work, but as far asthe content, that that was
lacking, right, and there's someprogramming across across the U
S um that touches on theseareas, certainly, but that was
my mission was to ultimatelypropose this here at Gueslake.
Here's been my experience.
This is why this is important.
The VA is one of the largestemployers of LMSWs in the nation
(06:58):
, if not the largest, and so wecan really complement the field
experiences with this work inthe classroom.
And so many of my students goon to work in Department of
Defense, work in the VA, work incommunity agencies, you know,
just like this, commanding someof the work that we're doing,
and I think that course at leastassists them in their journey.
(07:22):
Right, and really sort ofhighlighting some of the work
that they can do based on theskill set that they have gained
here at the institution.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
And it's so true.
I feel like when you're goingthrough the classes like you're
like when am I ever going to usethis?
And then next thing you knowlike something in your career
will just like line up justright and you're like, oh wow,
I'm really glad that, like I hadsomething in my bank to go back
to.
But, nick, it's been a whilesince you've been on the show a
little over maybe not a year,anyway a while and you've been
(07:55):
kind of hitting the groundrunning in our public sector and
stuff.
Could you explain a little bitabout like partnerships and what
you're trying to do and how weeven got into the place where we
have Kenneth on our show?
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Sure.
So on the public sector side,we're, you know, continuing to
deepen our relationship with theVA.
We've got some exciting newwork supporting both, not just
veterans through the SuicidePrevention Grand Challenge work,
but also VA employee wholehealth, so providing cabanas a
(08:30):
support to clinicians and VAstaff.
But, you know, additionallywe're starting to launch a few
partnerships with state agenciesand some nonprofits.
One just recently with thestate of Virginia.
Their Department of VeteransServices has their own peer
support function, their own peersupport function, and so
(08:57):
bringing additional partnershipsto bear, like with Ken and
Syracuse University, gives usadditional expertise and
capacity to support thoseengagements where they're
providing services and outreachrecovery support to veterans,
family members, guard andReservists across states.
And so as we start to expandour access to, you know, live
(09:20):
support groups, you know we haveKen his team to sort of tap
into that.
So that's really exciting tosort of build that.
But also, just generallyspeaking, like higher ed, is a,
is a, is an important, you know,aspect of our partnering.
You know we want to continue toto measure and show that we're
(09:40):
impacting the lives of othersand, you know, forming
partnerships with SyracuseUniversity, you know which, you
know, although I'm biasedbecause I came from Syracuse
University myself well, the bestplace for veterans trademark
trademark, and so to have apartnership with an institution
that is aligned with where wewant to go as a company.
(10:02):
It's just a win-win.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
I mean, while I did go to NYU, I will say that
Syracuse is a fine universityand it's in my backyard.
Kenneth, from your perspective,what are your thoughts on this
partnership?
I mean, I think when you're inthe field and you see like
actual innovation happening, Iknow for me it's really really
exciting.
It's why I really loved Cabana.
But just from kind of your roleand where you sit, I know
innovation is important to you.
(10:25):
What do you see as like thehighlights of this partnership
for the work you do and then thefuture of the field?
Speaker 4 (10:32):
Yeah, I think when Nick first we just had a brief
meeting, he first went over toCabana and you know I saw an
immediate fit, right to hispoint Syracuse University and
our strategic plan to be thebest place for vets.
So we have now students who aregoing to be able to intern with
you, christine, you know atCabana that are then also
simultaneously serving veteranpopulations in many ways, and
(10:54):
then also our staff, right, asNick mentioned, some of our
internship placementcoordinators who are out there
day in and day out willunderstand the field, who are
working with students and alsoassist in some of this training
support, whether that'scurriculum development or even
hopping on a call and moderatinga session.
Right, and so we're looking atthis as a multifaceted
partnership.
Beyond continuing to sort ofassess the program, right, maybe
(11:15):
engaging some level of researcharound this, and I think that
that's you know what apartnership is is truly all
about.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
I couldn't agree more .
A lot of times when you seethese partnerships, you see a
lot of I don't know likeinsurance company and mental
health tech company and you'relike, ah, not sure like what
kind of partnership that is, butto see something that I feel
like in so many ways is helpingso many people by two
institutions coming togetherlike this is really, really
exciting.
And I don't know about fromyour experience, but from my
(11:42):
experience, not something I seeoften.
You know, a lot of times Ithink, right, it's like you've
got your veteran social work,you've got your this social work
, you've got your this socialwork, and that can be difficult.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
Yeah, for sure, I think.
On the innovation piece, what Ireally like, too, is that our
students are going to have to beaware of the rapidly evolving
technological advancements and,specifically, as it pertains to
what does that mean in thebehavioral and mental health
space, right, and the beauty ofthis partnership and what you're
all doing is that it trulymeans the client where they are.
Right, so, like, if noteverything needs to be a 60 to
(12:16):
90 minute traditionalpsychotherapy session, right, so
it could be focused onprevention.
Right, it could be focused on,you know, some level of
mindfulness.
Right, you can engage inclinical work if needed on this
platform, but again, the sort of, given that humans are complex
and there's many nuances, right,there might be an individual
who benefits from a weekly30-minute peer support group
(12:38):
that doesn't necessarily need tohave intensive, if you will,
mental health treatment, and sothat's both good for the future
clinicians or future, you know,direct practice professionals to
know and understand how tonavigate the sort of, again,
innovative technologicaladvancements and how it can be
useful for their clients butalso directly serving the
clients as they're growing andlearning throughout this
(13:00):
experience.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
It's so refreshing, though, to hear, too, like a
dean at a predominant universitysaying that, because I feel
like when I got out of school,it was like this is how you do
therapy.
And a lot of times I feel likea rule breaker, because I very
much believe in like where thisperson is at and like
accommodating what they need toconstitute therapy, like it's my
job to monitor what I'm doingand all that.
But if they need a 30 sessionthis week, like I'm not making
(13:22):
them stay 90 minutes, I think itis such a personalized thing,
and if we can bring thatpersonalization to more people
with more access, like that'sjust exciting.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
If I could jump into the question for Ken or
Christine, do you thinkleveraging a platform like this,
like how novel is that inhigher ed today, in education
and training?
Speaker 4 (13:44):
Yeah, well, I haven't seen too many platforms like
this, nick.
You know I've seen telehealthright.
A lot of this could be, youknow, if it's private practice
could be a secure Zoom linkright, especially in this half
quite a bit during COVID.
I know that we are doing someof this work in the VA, but I
think this is a bit more unique,especially as you talk about
the confidentiality and maybeyou could expand on that a bit
(14:07):
more and the anonymity right ofof really low stakes being able
to engage with others.
You know, no fear of judgmentor reprisal in any any way, and
again, that might be door thatopens where it's wow, that felt
good to have that type ofconversation and it could lead
to okay, now I'm ready to maybeengage with a therapist or some
(14:30):
group level work, whether thatbe again in the community or in
the VA situations that we'retalking about.
So I think it breaks down somepotential barriers that might've
existed prior.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
Yeah, I mean that's really the reason we exist.
I mean we're all about creatingprivate spaces for better,
easier mental health access,whether it's a virtual or a
physical type of environment,and sort of overcoming those
stigmas through whateverfeatures.
We can meet the individualwhere they're at but also give
(15:04):
them control over how much oftheir you know their
circumstances they wanted toreveal either with a provider or
amongst their peers.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
Yeah, and I like how it's not sort of this like one
size fits all approach, right,and you know I can see how I'm
used to poking around theplatform.
It might be useful, you know,for myself or for an
organization to use it in theirown way to assist with their
employees, right, and sort ofpositive organizational culture,
while again also using it for,potentially, with their clients,
(15:38):
and so two way street and senseof reciprocity there.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
And I'm always a big believer.
If I wouldn't use it, then Ihave no business being on here
telling other people to use it.
We all are going to have ourdays, our ups and our downs, but
I want to make sure that whenI'm creating content and things,
it's things that I would do.
Maybe not every single thingwould work for me, but again, we
have to use the platformbecause we're all just people,
we're all just humans and ourcircumstances are going to
(16:04):
change at different times.
Additionally, I love when yousaid about preventative care,
because we don't talk about that.
We don't talk about theeveryday thing you do to keep
mental wellness well or to keepyour mental health baseline.
It's a lot about when it hitsthat precipice and we can do a
lot before then.
(16:25):
And I think, too, that's a hugepart of access is telling
people it doesn't have to get toa certain level of bad for you
to invest in that practice everyday.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
I agree.
I think you know, you might allagree with me that we're a
relatively reactive society.
So taking that approach earlyon, understanding that social
support is one of the greatestprotective factors, having what
will sort of like wrap aroundservices and again, this social
support can come in many shapesand sizes, right.
But here's another avenue forthis and this platform does it.
(16:57):
And again, many use cases,right.
So I've talked with staffmembers here who said, oh, this
would be really useful for ourgraduate students to get
together in this forum,confidential, anonymous, not
necessarily clinical work right,but just talking about their
experiences and being able tosupport one another without
having a faculty member therewhere they might feel they're
(17:17):
judged.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
I mean, I say that now as a provider, how am I
going to handle this?
To your point about, just, Ithink, as a graduate, right, I
felt so woefully underprepared,not because of my education, but
you just you're hit withsomething new every single day
and some other way to navigateit.
And I don't know if you'vethought about this, but I
thought about how great would itbe if I had something to give
like this between my sessions,like how much faster could a
(17:39):
client who was struggling getthrough that struggle if they
had this in-between supportwhere I could like check in in
some ways if they wanted toshare with me, but also know
that like they're not going tohave to wait a whole week before
they're like in front of meagain for that traditional yeah,
you know, it's like a, you know, like booster sessions in many
ways, christine right, I love
Speaker 5 (17:58):
that.
Speaker 4 (18:00):
Having that tap into a booster session for your next
appointment with your therapist.
It also just allows them tocontinue working on themselves,
right?
That ultimately leads to somelevel of growth and change.
If they're only working onthemselves when they're coming
to see you for 60 minutes a week, or every two weeks, or that
once a month, right, then what'sactually happening between
(18:22):
sessions, right?
Are we actually implementingwhat we're talking about?
And I think, at your point,this is another use case to aid
the therapist, to ultimatelyhelp client or clients.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Without burning them out too right, because I'm sure
you see that a ton, I think,especially when you're just
getting out and you want to doso much good in the world, it's
a tough, those are toughboundaries when you have so much
of people's vulnerabilities inyour hand.
I know I wasn't prepared, but Ithink more and more experiences
like this that challenge us tothink outside the way we've done
it.
Because, to your point, I thinkearlier in the episode you had
(18:55):
said the Zoom or like a lot ofplatforms are meant for like
mass therapists, right, like aportal of therapists, but not
really doing anything differentin the actual delivery of
service, as opposed to likeliterally making it so you can
jump on your phone.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
Yeah, I think the flexibility, the you know being
when it's accessible and, again,in many ways tailored to you,
right?
So, being able to select whichgroup that you might fit, you
know you might have someexperience in or that you want
to gain additional experience in, and, again, it goes two ways,
right?
So, if you're a provider, andyou often say early in school is
(19:35):
that it might be beneficial tosee your own therapist to
understand how theseinteractions occur, that you can
then best talk to clients.
Well, this is one of thoseopportunities, christine, where
a student might be able toengage this platform to assist
them with their growth as aprovider.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
I was so resistant to that in grad school I was like
I don't need a therapist, I'mgoing to be a therapist.
Little did I know, but theywouldn't let you graduate unless
you, like you did a littleAnyway.
So I would highly recommend.
It's so true because you knowyou don't realize how, like,
even when it's not your stuff,how weighing it gets, and when
you're faced with a lot ofproblems.
Probably similarly to like themilitary, where you feel like a
(20:13):
lot of times your hands are tied, there's only so much I can do,
I can't save you from yourself.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
Military, this is like mid to late 00s so 2006 to
2008, and just how we all copedwith that transition and having
(20:40):
had a tool or platform like this, I think could have been much
more helpful for myself andothers you know sort of
overcoming the mentality of youknow to more helpful uh for
myself and others.
You know of sort of overcomingthe mentality of you know.
To your point, christine, Idon't need a therapist, like I'm
, I'm good but sort ofreflecting 10 years now, like I
was very hypervigilant and justjust still sought out peers, but
(21:03):
in a different way, if therewere some.
Uh, just the ability to um, toreach out and connect in
something I threw throughthrough a platform where, uh, I
didn't feel like I was uhbearing it all.
You know pretty, pretty big.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
Yeah, I would echo Nick's statement there.
You know, transition can beextremely challenging.
Especially it can becomeisolating.
You're with a group ofindividuals that you spent a
great deal of time with and beensort of challenges and adverse
situations, and all of a suddenit's like, all right, you go
your separate ways across thecountry, right?
What does it mean to connect?
And again, it might notnecessarily need to be that
(21:42):
individual, but someone who hasa similar experience.
There is power in that, there'spower in connection and
certainly assist in what youwere talking about prevention of
more severe mental healthdisorders.
Christine.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
It's interesting because obviously I'm not a vet,
but I have a rare disease andone of the things that saved my
life during the diagnosis periodwas I grew up in the age of you
, did not talk to strangers.
Strangers are bad, but theybecame my lifeline because you
look like everything's okay onthe outside, right, like you're
the same Nick, you're the sameKen, you're the same Christine,
but everything has changed onthe inside.
(22:14):
Things are just different and Ithink it's really hard to
explain.
But when you guys are talkingabout it, it feels like it hits
that bone inside of me offeeling like I'm drowning on my
words because I don't know howto explain to you what I've
experienced or what's going on.
And there's a level of I thinkpeople expect you to kind of
(22:35):
just transition right or justthe version of you that they
know, or it tends to be theversion that they pick up on and
that can be really, really, Ithink, isolating and alone and
in general.
So having that space where youcan even connect or not
connecting with the people whoyou're used to connecting to,
yeah, it sounds like a similarexperience.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
Yeah, I think this idea that you're not alone,
right, you feel again reallyisolating, whether it's what you
were referring to what Nick'sreferring to, and sometimes it's
actually a normal reaction toan abnormal situation.
However, you feel some sense ofabnormality if those individuals
around you aren't feeling thatway.
Right?
So, bringing the collectivetogether.
There's strength in seekinghelp, but there's also strength
(23:11):
in wanting to help others, right?
So again, you can get to aplace where, hey, I did
experience this.
Hey, I tried this out.
Would you like to come alongwith me and give it a shot?
Speaker 2 (23:22):
You become somebody else's survival guide in this
weird way, if that's the pathyou choose to take.
I've got one last question foryou, Kenneth, and that is for
people who might be listening,that may be struggling, avoiding
or resistance to seeking asupport like therapy or like
cabana.
What would be one piece ofadvice you would give them to
like take with them?
Speaker 4 (23:41):
I mean, it might just start as something as small, as
like calling a friend, right,like, is there an individual, a
trusted source out there thatyou believe has your best
interest in mind, and justtalking to them again, no
judgment, this isn't a provider,right?
This is someone that you trustand then say, hey, well, you
know there's this resource atCabana that I was notified about
(24:02):
.
Or, to your point, I know thatthe VA has told me that you know
there's this resource and I'mresistant, and I'm really.
Or to your point, um, I knowthat the VA has told me that you
know there's this resource andI'm resistant and really wanted
to be like, okay, where's thatresistance coming from, right?
Um, but I think just being ableto verbalize it, uh, as a first
step, is important, and thenalso understand that, like the
(24:22):
individuals that we talked about, the students that were
training the folks in the fieldtruly do have veterans, military
populations, civilians andbeyond.
They're best, interested, hardand are there to help.
However, if you don't comeright, it's very difficult for
us to help in that process, andso I guess the long and short of
(24:45):
it is Christine, phone a friendand understand that there's a
whole team of individuals thatare ready to help when you're
ready.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
I love that so much because it is so true.
My clients will often say abouthow, oh, I feel like I'm
talking to a friend and I'm like, good, you should feel the ease
and the comfort of that.
And I think, too, what you saidabout there's so many of us out
here who want to help and, youknow, taking that step and, yeah
, you might get someone thatisn't a great fit, but try again
(25:14):
, just because they weren't theright person for you.
I think that's one of thethings that COVID definitely did
open up for us, which is youcan find a provider that works
for you, find a space that feelsright.
Speaker 4 (25:26):
And I think that's normal too, right, like not
every individual, I mean justhuman dynamics in general, right
, and how we gravitate towardscertain individuals and things
that we can relate to.
So if it doesn't feel like agreat fit again, that's not
abnormal, it's actually normalcyto that and it's also telling
you information and I think thatcritically evaluating, thinking
(25:46):
about why wasn't thatindividual a good fit for me?
And not necessarily projectingonto that individual or yourself
right, but navigating.
Okay, what is that?
What's going on in my own lifethat I'm feeling this sense of
way?
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Exactly and being okay with.
I think I don't get offended.
I'd be curious if you do.
But like the therapist shopping, like I'd rather you find
someone that you want that aregoing to do the hard work.
You know what I mean Then,because it will come out in our
work together.
Don't push yourself into asituation because you think, oh,
I'm therapist shopping or Ihave to make this work.
It's okay to take care ofyourself.
Speaker 4 (26:18):
Yes, great.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Nick Kenneth, thank you both so much for being on
the show with me.
I'm extremely excited for thispartnership and also to get to
work alongside both of you,creating a space that I don't
think really exists yet, notonly for the field, but like the
future providers and the futureof the field.
I think that's like a reallycool thing to be impacting.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
Yeah, thank you, christine, excited about the
partnership, and thanks forhaving me on.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
This is great, christine.
Thanks, ken, appreciate thetime.
I'm really excited about thisas well.
Great advice too.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
I know we're keeping that one.
That's all for this episode.
Interested in today's guest ortopic Text us.
Use the link on the top of yourshow notes to text the show.
We love to hear from you.
We'll be back next week with abrand new episode.
Until then, you're always fine.
Speaker 5 (27:03):
Seriously, you're fine.
You're fine because you havethe power to access your place
of peace anytime you need it.
However, if you get stuck,we're right at the palm of your
hand to help.
Check out our show notes forthis week's Source List,
recommended Content and CabanaLive Group Schedule.
We'll catch you next week for abrand new episode of You're
(27:23):
Always Fine.
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