April 23, 2024 • 26 mins
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With a narrative rich in empathy and the shared human experience, we delve into the nuances of mental health management amidst the societal and personal upheavals brought on by events like the pandemic. We candidly dissect the everyday battles and the significance of routine, the delicate dance of medication adjustments, and the often unnoticed progress it brings. Our dialogue spirals into the lines between beneficial organization and compulsive behavior, offering solidarity and valuable insights for anyone navigating the treacherous waters of depression or seeking to support loved ones who are. Join us for a raw, honest exploration that's as much about understanding as it is about being understood.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome back to You're Always Fine a space to
show up for yourself and embracethe mess that lives underneath.
Because, let's be real, it'sexhausting always being fine.
So grab your headphones andallow yourself to listen, laugh
and even cry, because you arenot alone.
And we aren't always fine, andthat's okay.
And we aren't always fine.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
And that's okay.
Major depressive disorderaffects approximately 17.3
million American adults in agiven year, so why is it still
so misunderstood and stigmatized?
Well, today we are diving intothis complex condition in hopes
of creating a small dent instarting the conversation.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
I'm your host, christine, and I'm Teresa, so
let's freaking get into it.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Okay, Titi, can you tell me what you found when you
looked up?
Speaker 3 (00:54):
the definition of depression, just so we can
ground us.
Yes, so according to the NIMH,depression, also known as major
depressive disorder, is a mentalhealth condition characterized
by persistent feelings ofsadness, hopelessness and a loss
of interest in activities youonce enjoyed.
It's more than just feelingdown for a day or two.
It can last for weeks, monthsor even years if left untreated.
(01:18):
The causes of depression arecomplex and can involve a
combination of genetic,biological, environmental and
psychological factors.
Things like traumatic lifeevents, chronic stress, certain
medications and underlyingmedical conditions can all
contribute to the development ofdepression.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Okay, so when you think of depression, Titi, what
is like the first few thingsthat like come to your mind?
Speaker 3 (01:43):
I would say someone that has a really hard time
getting out of bed, someone thatis overall not very happy and,
honestly, someone that has theirlife kind of consumed by their
own thoughts.
That's what I would think.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
So that's kind of exactly.
What kind of sparked me to wantto have this episode was
because a few nights ago ago Iwas in my hot tub and I was just
sitting there and I realizedlike, oh my gosh, like I'm in a
pretty dark place right now, andfor me depression doesn't look
like not being able to get outof bed or consumed by thoughts I
(02:22):
feel like is not fair to evensay, because I'm always consumed
by my thoughts.
So I'm going to leave that oneout.
But a lot of the stereotypicalthings that are listed in
depression aren't for me Like.
I can still put on a prettyhappy face, I can pretty much
make it through my day.
I find that maybe myperfectionism turns up a little
bit.
What I really notice is thisvast amount of like emptiness,
(02:44):
and not like unemotional, butnot emotional, but just like it
seems like there's an ocean ofempty inside me.
And that's when I'm usuallylike, oh no, I'm not in a really
good place.
But that took me a really longtime to realize what depression
looked like for me, because whenyou start thinking about, oh,
am I happy or I'm not happy, oris it hopelessness or sadness,
(03:08):
those can feel kind of like easyto either mitigate or make an
excuse for them like off.
And I find that it's soimportant to understand that
there's different types ofdepression, there's different
onsets, and then everyoneexperiences depression slightly
different, and I think thatsociety has kind of made it seem
(03:30):
like we have control over thissadness or the way that we've
framed it, right, like oh, can'tget out of bed, right.
I think both of us know,through different avenues, about
not being able to get out ofbed or being so sick not being
able to get out of bed.
And I know for me I could notaccept that it was depression as
opposed, because it felt likeit was directly invalidating
(03:51):
that.
I was like what my body wasfeeling like.
But then I started to realizelike it's not the chicken or the
egg kind of thing.
It all combined At some pointit does become like I'm just
depressed because I'm so sickand I can't get out of bed, not
so much that my flare up isstill bad.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Yeah, I think for me it's also very hard to have an
idea of what depression is whenyou don't struggle with it
yourself.
So I never have.
I've been in like I would sayruts and stuff like that, but
that's like typical things.
I think that you would go inups and downs.
I've never actually struggledwith depression.
(04:29):
So I think it's also reallyhard for people like me to
understand all the nuances indepression, because I've seen
very bad depression in, you know, family members and things like
that.
And then I've also seen theother side of it, where I feel
like depression can getmanipulated.
(04:49):
So that's also difficult forsomeone that never really deals
with depression, because it'shard to recognize it and
recognize which one is actuallya reality for someone that
they're dealing with or if it'sbeing cherry picked for someone
to use, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
No for sure.
Two things.
One, when you were talkingabout that it made me think of
when we first met.
You really struggled tounderstand like my flare ups and
you're like just text me back.
I'm like it's just not thateasy and I will never forget the
like time you went live and youlike basically gave me like
three years later, this likeapology because like you were
just going through like some ofyour own stuff and you realize,
(05:31):
like you realized it from adifferent perspective.
But I feel like that's kind ofwhat you're talking about with
depression Like it's really hardto like put yourself in
something that you just seemsinfallible, like you know, or
like seems truly, like you can'timagine.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Well, yeah, because there is varying degrees, like
you said, there's degrees like Ican't get up, I can't get out
of bed, pretty severe.
But then there's also, like yousaid, you can function, you can
move, but you have that feelingof emptiness and that's not
necessarily as obvious.
It makes me think of RobinWilliams, right, who's so happy
comedian and then all of asudden, everyone's like what the
(06:07):
heck happened?
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Exactly.
I feel like this can be a very,very silent battle.
And also because some of thestigmatization that we have
right around.
You know, essentially like, oh,it's something that you can
help just get out of bed, justlike see some sunlight, and it's
not that easy and I notrealizing it if that makes sense
(06:31):
, Like I don't know.
For me it's one thing.
When I start to realize it,then I feel like I can start to
do something about it.
But you know the process ofgetting there.
I don't always know if I likenotice, or you know you never
think it's like that bad, oruntil it is, yeah, this isn't
depression, you know, this isjust.
(06:52):
I'm upset because of X, Y and Z, and that for me, I think, is
the scariest part, is notrealizing that you're getting to
that place.
Like you said, there's a mildall the way to severe, like
depression, and I think there'salso and we do this with a lot
of things I think our generationand I think just with so much
consumption and stuff, does thisthing, where it's like a
depressive thought, can getmisconstrued or minimized as
(07:16):
like, oh, this is just.
I think I've seen it go bothways.
Where it's like people willunderestimate or exaggerate.
You know, like, oh, that's myOCD and it's like.
Well, your OCD is more thanjust like organizing your fridge
, you know.
Well, that's the other thing.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
I was going to say I also do feel with social media
and TikTok and all that.
I do feel like mental healthissues and this is going to
sound so bad and I don't want tomake anyone mad, but sometimes
they're getting to be a trendwhere people will, just off the
cuff, be like oh yeah, like yousaid, I have OCD and it's like
that's actually a real thing.
(07:48):
So, and like you, very wellmight have it, but you can't
just classify it.
You know what I mean.
It just seems like it's abandwagon right now.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yes, exactly One behavior isn't encompassing of
it, and, while I think that theawareness and the exposure is
obviously overall good for themost part, but there is a lot of
serious dangers One, I meanknowing your root cause is so
important when you're trying toget treatment and stuff, and so
it's really important thatyou're not just diagnosing
yourself and you're also not,you know, to your point.
(08:19):
It's a complicated issue, right?
I think we're seeing that withADHD a lot, where so many adults
right now going for ADHD thatthere's a lot of serious
consequences.
People aren't able to get theirmedicine.
Doctors are now really hesitanton prescribing medicine, right,
Because of, I think, this newexposure that social media has
brought, Like I said.
So I think it is a good thing, Ithink it does bring awareness,
(08:40):
but I think we have to becareful when we're consuming
these things that are already,in my opinion as a clinician for
15 years, super hard todiagnose.
Like diagnosing is one of myleast favorite parts of my job
because you know there are justso many factors that can
attribute to it and you'reseeing a snippet of something
and you're trying to get itright and you're trying to find
the most the root cause to get atreatment to give this person
(09:03):
some relief.
But I mean just in depression,right, there's major depression,
there's persistent depressivedisorder, there's seasonal
affect disorder, there'spostpartum depression, like
right, and all of them have liketheir own set of you know
symptoms.
One of the major things aboutyou know depression is, you know
, lasting more than two weeksbut less than six months Right,
Because otherwise it'sconsidered chronic.
(09:24):
And I think you know, oddlyenough, my disease has opened me
up to the like being open aboutdepression if that makes sense,
or being able to talk about itin a way that doesn't feel, I
guess, threatening to who I am.
But if you look at some of theother symptoms lack of energy,
(09:45):
fatigue, difficultyconcentrating I feel like that's
everything that comes up, Ihave all of those things Right
on a normal day for meeverything that I have, all of
those things you know, thenormal day for me, and I'm not.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
That's not something I struggle with, so it is.
It's, it's hard.
It's hard.
It depends on yourcircumstances, it depends on
prior traumas, your experiences.
There's a lot that goes into itand you do want to get
diagnosed correctly because youknow, for example, like you just
listed off, fatigue, lack ofconcentration and what was the
other one difficultyconcentrating okay, so all three
(10:18):
of those things right there,right lack of energy, that's
lack of energyI have all three of those and I
know that I have all three ofthose because of vitamin and
mineral deficiencies and stufflike that right, but if you and
this is what I mean about likesocial media and consuming so
much, if, if you know, you seeall that and then you have a bad
(10:40):
day one day or whatever, andyou don't want to get diagnosed
with something you don'tactually have, if you don't want
to get diagnosed withdepression, get put on something
and then, in reality, you justhave like a mineral deficiency
or whatever.
So I do think knowing thenuances and stuff like that is
super important for not only thepeople that are trying to seek
help and figure out what isgoing on with them, but also the
(11:00):
people that are diagnosing them.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Yeah, and you know, I think too, like we saw in COVID
right, this like increased,like loneliness and this, you
know, realization, that I thinkso much of our, like, our worlds
were like externally validatedand outward that we never had a
chance to sit with ourselves andI think that we saw a
heightened depression becausewhen that was all taken away,
(11:24):
all we were left with wasourselves.
And you know, for someone likeme that opened up my world, but
for most people it closed theirworld.
I think too, when we think ofdepression, sometimes I think
there's an easy jump to suicide.
And while, yes, you know,reoccurring thoughts of death or
suicide is a severe, on asevere end of DSM diagnosing,
(11:46):
there is to me also a very realevery day.
It's almost like the chronicaspect of chronic, you know,
just like that repeat, and thenyou know there's change in
appetites and there's loss ofsleep and those are all things
right that could also help youget out of it.
So you know, I know for me oneof the reasons that depression
and my flare-ups are sointermingled is because I lose
(12:08):
my routine.
And the second I lose myroutines that's when I go down
this like very slippery spiraland you know, you keep pushing,
you keep pushing, and but I did,I literally in my house.
I was like I am so empty rightnow, like why is this happening?
Nothing works, nothing ishappening.
I think that's the hard part,too right.
It's like doesn't always haveto be something bad happens or
(12:28):
something bad happens.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
Yeah, there doesn't have to always be a reason.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Yes, and you know that chemical imbalance, I think
sometimes is reallymisunderstood, you know, I think
we understand, I think moredepressive episodes, right, your
kid gets like chronicallydiagnosed with something or a
tragedy, a trauma, right, weunderstand that yeah they make
more sense.
Yes, out of the blue just again,and for me it doesn't feel
(12:54):
sadness.
Sometimes I wish it did feellike sadness and I could, I
think, easier pinpoint thatRight right.
But for me that emptinessdoesn't feel like an emotion and
it's harder for me to identify.
And I'm on so many medicationsI can't always look for like the
loss of appetite or the loss oflike interest in activity.
(13:14):
Because, let me tell you, thelast thing I wanted to do is
come on here and record thispodcast today.
It was down there with you know, I don't know the worst of the
worst of the things, you know.
Feelings of worthlessness, too,I think is an interesting one,
especially being a woman.
I think I struggle with myworth all the time.
It's a constant telling myselfI'm enough.
So sometimes I think theindicators that we have aren't
(13:37):
always the easiest ones to helpus navigate that.
And then I think, too,medication.
I think one of the mostfascinating things about being a
therapist is having so manypeople come to me and seeing how
they want to try to work thingsout, because sometimes you try
and you try and you try, and Inever bring up medication unless
one I can diagnose and I canrefer so that someone can get
(14:01):
medication bring up because itdoesn't feel like a solution I
can actually help with.
But you know, when you'resitting there and you're doing
CBT or you know you're doingthese modalities week after week
and you're trying to get out ofthe hole and it just feels like
you're not able to do it, youknow, sometimes I tell them
you've been putting the work in.
It should be a little easier.
(14:21):
I think you should explore this, you know, and that always gets
an interesting response,depending on where people are in
their journey.
Because, again, you know, oneof the big things is like do I
have to be on this for life?
Do I have to like?
What does this mean?
And it's so true, you know.
I think it opens up this scaryrealm of is this forever?
Speaker 3 (14:36):
Right and it's hard because I mean, I'm on the other
side of it in terms of likemedicating and stuff like that.
You know, obviously that's upto people and what they want to
do.
I am more on the holistic endsof things and there are holistic
means to try and help mentalhealth and stuff like that, but
I think it's not reallymainstream right now and I think
(14:59):
that's difficult for people tolook into that side of things
because a lot of times, right,you do, like you said, want to
get to the root cause of why youare depressed, and when you're
looking at root causes not evenjust like trauma and stuff like
that there is other parts ofyour body that could be affected
.
So it's interesting becausesometimes you can give someone a
(15:20):
prescription medication fordepression and it could make
them worse or it could not beenough, or you know you got to
not have it with something else,or so it is a lot and it's, I
think, it's difficult to try andfigure out the best way to go
for your unique individualsituation.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Well, and you know.
It's interesting that you saythat, because the number one
thing of all theseantidepressants usually is a
increased risk of suicide withinthe first two weeks of taking
it which is great right which,when you think about, when you
think about just the basics ofgiving someone who's already in
that state, that seems like ahuge risk, you know.
But you know to your point.
I also think sometimes we wanta quick fix, you know and.
(16:02):
I think a lot of you knowmedication.
I think the craziest thing ismedication, at least in my
experience professionally andtaking it it isn't going to.
The opposite of depression isnot happiness, right, it's just
not.
It's baseline, right.
It's like we're talking 10%better.
So just as little as it tookhow you started to feel that way
(16:26):
is as little as all of a suddenyou're just one day will just
be a little easier, you know andit's not.
Again, the weight of the worldcan feel on you and you would
think that you would feel thatweight lift Right.
It feels so subtle thatsometimes it's even hard to know
is this medication working?
Until I stop taking it andbecause I think that, oh, like
(16:47):
it's not, you know, I'm fine,Everything's fine, I'm regulated
, whatever have you, and then Istopped taking it and about two
weeks later I'm like okay, it'snot the worst of the worst, but
it's not.
I can feel that 10%, no longerlike there.
And you know that's where, likethe therapy, they're, like the
thought, repatterning.
I'm constantly telling peoplethat it's an everyday battle, me
(17:10):
versus my internal world.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Like period.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
And who's going to win that day?
I'm never sure.
Trying to do the right thingwhen you're tired, walk when you
don't feel like walking, youknow, like all the things like
that walking pad was.
The best thing I think I'vedone for my depression was, you
know, to keep my body moving,because I didn't know how much
is stored in your body.
So I think it's just.
I guess it still amazes me that, like in 2024, we still really
(17:37):
do struggle though having theseopen conversations.
You know you're someone whodoesn't experience it.
I'm someone that I don't knowif I would have ever identified
it as, but you know kind ofnarrowed all the things.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
It's really all I could be.
I think the conversations canbe had like we're doing right
now, if you don't haveexpectations, and what I mean by
that is I remember speaking tosomeone about depression.
They were experiencing it, orfelt like they were experiencing
it.
I, however, was seeing acompletely different side of
this person.
Right, I was seeing a personthat was depressed in only
(18:17):
certain situations, and thesesituations were situations that
limited this person's ability todo things.
This person could spend hours onhours on hours getting ready to
go out on the town and have funand do all this stuff, but then
, when it would come to doingthings for their family or
(18:38):
having things to be done, it wasthat's when they would say
they're struggling.
And then they wanted my opinionon it, and I'm like I'm not the
expert.
From my view of someone thathas never experienced it, it's
clearly something's going on,but I don't necessarily think
that it's that, and that persongot frustrated with me, but
(19:01):
again, I'm not someone thatdeals with it.
So I think that you can haveconversations like this, as long
as you both know we canexperience the same things, or
you might not be able to fullyunderstand and then just have an
open.
Just don't have an expectationthat I'm going to agree with you
or that I'm going to be like,yes, that's definitely what you
have, because that's just not myarea of expertise.
(19:24):
You know what?
Speaker 2 (19:25):
I mean, I think people want to feel validated
and that's like the struggle,you know, is like you want to
feel validated by people aroundyou and feel seen, and I think
that's part of the problem.
You know, is like if someonedoesn't know all the factors or
whatever, it can be frustratingand it can feel invalidating,
but that's not what you'retrying to do.
(19:45):
It's just that's the way thatyou see it.
You know, and I think we'vealways done a really good job of
being on sometimes oppositesides of the issue and being
like okay, I'm going to hear youout, I might not walk away
changing anything.
Agreeing with you or whatever,but like I have enough respect
for you, I care enough about youto want to hear at least what
(20:05):
you have to say about the topicand I think like we've lost that
ability to really try to diveinto that.
I think, again, covid puteveryone in this same position
where, like we, we usedepression, but the amount of
people who were like truly goingthrough depression in COVID and
the amount of people who maybeit was difficult or lonely, like
there, there was a differencethere.
But there was this like verycommon shared experience that we
(20:27):
don't always usually get right.
A country doesn't always shutdown or, you know, give people
this, but, like you said, Ithink it's, it's your trauma,
it's the way you process it,it's honest, quite literally,
chemical imbalances, you know,and all of that leading into
also stress management, you know, like I, know that I'm someone
who gets super, superoverwhelmed, especially around
(20:49):
not feeling like meetingexpectation or something of that
nature.
And having to manage that stressis a huge part of managing my
depression, Right?
Also, managing my OCD is a hugepart of managing my depression,
you know, when I start to feelobsessive thoughts again.
This is why the organizationone always makes me laugh
(21:10):
because you know it's like cutewhen it's like, oh, my OCD looks
like this.
But the difference is I can'tmove from like the bottom.
I'm like draw of my draw.
She's saying drawer, she'ssaying drawer, that's what I
mean.
But I will get stuck for hoursbecause it becomes an obsession
and then that a compulsion comesfrom the obsession and I cannot
(21:31):
, it's so, it's not.
Oh, this is cuter, this is likeI like being this organized,
like freak.
It's the difference between,yes, I like it because it's
really, if I didn't like it, Idon't have a choice.
But you know Carrie will alwayssay I will go for aesthetics
over function and I will.
Every time it's a matter of Iwill obsess over the way
something looks in my fridge ifit's because it doesn't all look
(21:54):
the same or it's not all facingand that's a hindrance in my
life.
It's fun and all.
When you're looking at you knowit's become trendy on, like you
know, TikTok and stuff to havelike these or like restock of
clocks.
But I've been doing this, likeI mean, but for as long as I can
remember.
My sister and I we wanted toshare a room when we were both
out of the house, but it was thetransition period in college
and so you were living at home,but you were not living at home
(22:15):
kind of thing, and so we likehad this great idea to live
together.
She literally moved upstairs,the smallest bedroom of the
house, because I was folding herunderwear, because I just I
couldn't open her drawers andlike look at them, Like yeah,
and she's like I just can't, Ican't live with someone who's
like I was like well, you don'thave to do it, Like it's not
affecting you, and she's like Ican't.
But like and like this was likea serious thing, Like and to
(22:37):
this day, like I fold them avery specific way that is so
funny and like all tucked innicely, like in, like again in
the most ridiculous way possible.
But it's just, it's the onlyway like I can function, you
know.
But but much like depression,like I thought that you know,
because I didn't count how manytimes I did something that was
(23:01):
an OCD, so it took me a reallylong time, even as a clinician,
to be like, oh, wow, when, whenI remember, like when I was
getting TSM, which, like Icalled it, one flew over the
cuckoo's nest like type of thing, but it wasn't, um, but to me
it still feels like it was, butlike put all these things on
your head and like essentiallylike hit certain spots of your
(23:21):
brain to try to like re rewireit.
Yes, essentially, obviously notas crazy as one.
It was a cool business, butthat's what it felt like.
It was like very like.
Now it's kind of common.
I've seen ads all over theinternet for it but when I was
getting it done in 2020, it waslike very new and I was like,
sure, mom put me in one.
Yeah, I get it, but it wasthrough that process.
(23:43):
Did we?
Did we find that, like, theroot of my depression was
actually OCD and so theyactually didn't know if it was
going to help me.
But just having the rightdiagnosis and therefore the like
shift in medications, evenunder the same umbrella, was it
was so, yeah, it matters, itdefinitely matters.
It does, and I think that justus having this conversation in
(24:05):
general starts to hopefullyallow us, like, check in with
ourselves, not be afraid to askfor help or seek professional
treatment.
You know you're not alone andthere's nothing wrong with you.
You know it's okay to need alittle help out of the dark even
if, like you know, your bestfriend doesn't need that same
help, Right, 100%.
(24:25):
So anything else on this Cece,what do you think?
Speaker 3 (24:29):
I think, just for people that are struggling, if
you don't feel like you havepeople around you, like go on.
I don't know, like if there'sgroups or you would probably
know more, christine, about thatkind of stuff, but I think, if
you're struggling, just to atleast voice it to someone so
you're not struggling alone.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
You don't have to struggle in silence.
There's places like Cabana thatare here to help and, again,
there's 17.3 million Americanadults who are going through
this at any given time.
The numbers are in your favor.
That somebody's kind ofexperiencing this, but also
suffering in silence alone,Right?
So you know?
That's it for this episode ofYou're Always Fine.
(25:11):
Join us next time as we exploreanother taboo topic.
If you enjoy the show, pleaseleave us a review.
We love hearing from you guys,and until next time, mind your
health.
Seriously, you're fine.
You're fine because you havethe power to access your place
of peace anytime you need it.
(25:32):
However, if you get stuck,we're right at the palm of your
hand to help.
Check out our show notes forthis week's source list,
recommended content and Cabanalive group schedule.
We'll catch you next week for abrand new episode of You're
Always Fine.
Welcome back to You're Always Fine a space to
show up for yourself and embracethe mess that lives underneath.
Because, let's be real, it'sexhausting always being fine.
So grab your headphones andallow yourself to listen, laugh
and even cry, because you arenot alone.
And we aren't always fine, andthat's okay.
And we aren't always fine.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
And that's okay.
Major depressive disorderaffects approximately 17.3
million American adults in agiven year, so why is it still
so misunderstood and stigmatized?
Well, today we are diving intothis complex condition in hopes
of creating a small dent instarting the conversation.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
I'm your host, christine, and I'm Teresa, so
let's freaking get into it.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Okay, Titi, can you tell me what you found when you
looked up?
Speaker 3 (00:54):
the definition of depression, just so we can
ground us.
Yes, so according to the NIMH,depression, also known as major
depressive disorder, is a mentalhealth condition characterized
by persistent feelings ofsadness, hopelessness and a loss
of interest in activities youonce enjoyed.
It's more than just feelingdown for a day or two.
It can last for weeks, monthsor even years if left untreated.
(01:18):
The causes of depression arecomplex and can involve a
combination of genetic,biological, environmental and
psychological factors.
Things like traumatic lifeevents, chronic stress, certain
medications and underlyingmedical conditions can all
contribute to the development ofdepression.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Okay, so when you think of depression, Titi, what
is like the first few thingsthat like come to your mind?
Speaker 3 (01:43):
I would say someone that has a really hard time
getting out of bed, someone thatis overall not very happy and,
honestly, someone that has theirlife kind of consumed by their
own thoughts.
That's what I would think.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
So that's kind of exactly.
What kind of sparked me to wantto have this episode was
because a few nights ago ago Iwas in my hot tub and I was just
sitting there and I realizedlike, oh my gosh, like I'm in a
pretty dark place right now, andfor me depression doesn't look
like not being able to get outof bed or consumed by thoughts I
(02:22):
feel like is not fair to evensay, because I'm always consumed
by my thoughts.
So I'm going to leave that oneout.
But a lot of the stereotypicalthings that are listed in
depression aren't for me Like.
I can still put on a prettyhappy face, I can pretty much
make it through my day.
I find that maybe myperfectionism turns up a little
bit.
What I really notice is thisvast amount of like emptiness,
(02:44):
and not like unemotional, butnot emotional, but just like it
seems like there's an ocean ofempty inside me.
And that's when I'm usuallylike, oh no, I'm not in a really
good place.
But that took me a really longtime to realize what depression
looked like for me, because whenyou start thinking about, oh,
am I happy or I'm not happy, oris it hopelessness or sadness,
(03:08):
those can feel kind of like easyto either mitigate or make an
excuse for them like off.
And I find that it's soimportant to understand that
there's different types ofdepression, there's different
onsets, and then everyoneexperiences depression slightly
different, and I think thatsociety has kind of made it seem
(03:30):
like we have control over thissadness or the way that we've
framed it, right, like oh, can'tget out of bed, right.
I think both of us know,through different avenues, about
not being able to get out ofbed or being so sick not being
able to get out of bed.
And I know for me I could notaccept that it was depression as
opposed, because it felt likeit was directly invalidating
(03:51):
that.
I was like what my body wasfeeling like.
But then I started to realizelike it's not the chicken or the
egg kind of thing.
It all combined At some pointit does become like I'm just
depressed because I'm so sickand I can't get out of bed, not
so much that my flare up isstill bad.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Yeah, I think for me it's also very hard to have an
idea of what depression is whenyou don't struggle with it
yourself.
So I never have.
I've been in like I would sayruts and stuff like that, but
that's like typical things.
I think that you would go inups and downs.
I've never actually struggledwith depression.
(04:29):
So I think it's also reallyhard for people like me to
understand all the nuances indepression, because I've seen
very bad depression in, you know, family members and things like
that.
And then I've also seen theother side of it, where I feel
like depression can getmanipulated.
(04:49):
So that's also difficult forsomeone that never really deals
with depression, because it'shard to recognize it and
recognize which one is actuallya reality for someone that
they're dealing with or if it'sbeing cherry picked for someone
to use, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
No for sure.
Two things.
One, when you were talkingabout that it made me think of
when we first met.
You really struggled tounderstand like my flare ups and
you're like just text me back.
I'm like it's just not thateasy and I will never forget the
like time you went live and youlike basically gave me like
three years later, this likeapology because like you were
just going through like some ofyour own stuff and you realize,
(05:31):
like you realized it from adifferent perspective.
But I feel like that's kind ofwhat you're talking about with
depression Like it's really hardto like put yourself in
something that you just seemsinfallible, like you know, or
like seems truly, like you can'timagine.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Well, yeah, because there is varying degrees, like
you said, there's degrees like Ican't get up, I can't get out
of bed, pretty severe.
But then there's also, like yousaid, you can function, you can
move, but you have that feelingof emptiness and that's not
necessarily as obvious.
It makes me think of RobinWilliams, right, who's so happy
comedian and then all of asudden, everyone's like what the
(06:07):
heck happened?
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Exactly.
I feel like this can be a very,very silent battle.
And also because some of thestigmatization that we have
right around.
You know, essentially like, oh,it's something that you can
help just get out of bed, justlike see some sunlight, and it's
not that easy and I notrealizing it if that makes sense
(06:31):
, Like I don't know.
For me it's one thing.
When I start to realize it,then I feel like I can start to
do something about it.
But you know the process ofgetting there.
I don't always know if I likenotice, or you know you never
think it's like that bad, oruntil it is, yeah, this isn't
depression, you know, this isjust.
(06:52):
I'm upset because of X, Y and Z, and that for me, I think, is
the scariest part, is notrealizing that you're getting to
that place.
Like you said, there's a mildall the way to severe, like
depression, and I think there'salso and we do this with a lot
of things I think our generationand I think just with so much
consumption and stuff, does thisthing, where it's like a
depressive thought, can getmisconstrued or minimized as
(07:16):
like, oh, this is just.
I think I've seen it go bothways.
Where it's like people willunderestimate or exaggerate.
You know, like, oh, that's myOCD and it's like.
Well, your OCD is more thanjust like organizing your fridge
, you know.
Well, that's the other thing.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
I was going to say I also do feel with social media
and TikTok and all that.
I do feel like mental healthissues and this is going to
sound so bad and I don't want tomake anyone mad, but sometimes
they're getting to be a trendwhere people will, just off the
cuff, be like oh yeah, like yousaid, I have OCD and it's like
that's actually a real thing.
(07:48):
So, and like you, very wellmight have it, but you can't
just classify it.
You know what I mean.
It just seems like it's abandwagon right now.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yes, exactly One behavior isn't encompassing of
it, and, while I think that theawareness and the exposure is
obviously overall good for themost part, but there is a lot of
serious dangers One, I meanknowing your root cause is so
important when you're trying toget treatment and stuff, and so
it's really important thatyou're not just diagnosing
yourself and you're also not,you know, to your point.
(08:19):
It's a complicated issue, right?
I think we're seeing that withADHD a lot, where so many adults
right now going for ADHD thatthere's a lot of serious
consequences.
People aren't able to get theirmedicine.
Doctors are now really hesitanton prescribing medicine, right,
Because of, I think, this newexposure that social media has
brought, Like I said.
So I think it is a good thing, Ithink it does bring awareness,
(08:40):
but I think we have to becareful when we're consuming
these things that are already,in my opinion as a clinician for
15 years, super hard todiagnose.
Like diagnosing is one of myleast favorite parts of my job
because you know there are justso many factors that can
attribute to it and you'reseeing a snippet of something
and you're trying to get itright and you're trying to find
the most the root cause to get atreatment to give this person
(09:03):
some relief.
But I mean just in depression,right, there's major depression,
there's persistent depressivedisorder, there's seasonal
affect disorder, there'spostpartum depression, like
right, and all of them have liketheir own set of you know
symptoms.
One of the major things aboutyou know depression is, you know
, lasting more than two weeksbut less than six months Right,
Because otherwise it'sconsidered chronic.
(09:24):
And I think you know, oddlyenough, my disease has opened me
up to the like being open aboutdepression if that makes sense,
or being able to talk about itin a way that doesn't feel, I
guess, threatening to who I am.
But if you look at some of theother symptoms lack of energy,
(09:45):
fatigue, difficultyconcentrating I feel like that's
everything that comes up, Ihave all of those things Right
on a normal day for meeverything that I have, all of
those things you know, thenormal day for me, and I'm not.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
That's not something I struggle with, so it is.
It's, it's hard.
It's hard.
It depends on yourcircumstances, it depends on
prior traumas, your experiences.
There's a lot that goes into itand you do want to get
diagnosed correctly because youknow, for example, like you just
listed off, fatigue, lack ofconcentration and what was the
other one difficultyconcentrating okay, so all three
(10:18):
of those things right there,right lack of energy, that's
lack of energyI have all three of those and I
know that I have all three ofthose because of vitamin and
mineral deficiencies and stufflike that right, but if you and
this is what I mean about likesocial media and consuming so
much, if, if you know, you seeall that and then you have a bad
(10:40):
day one day or whatever, andyou don't want to get diagnosed
with something you don'tactually have, if you don't want
to get diagnosed withdepression, get put on something
and then, in reality, you justhave like a mineral deficiency
or whatever.
So I do think knowing thenuances and stuff like that is
super important for not only thepeople that are trying to seek
help and figure out what isgoing on with them, but also the
(11:00):
people that are diagnosing them.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Yeah, and you know, I think too, like we saw in COVID
right, this like increased,like loneliness and this, you
know, realization, that I thinkso much of our, like, our worlds
were like externally validatedand outward that we never had a
chance to sit with ourselves andI think that we saw a
heightened depression becausewhen that was all taken away,
(11:24):
all we were left with wasourselves.
And you know, for someone likeme that opened up my world, but
for most people it closed theirworld.
I think too, when we think ofdepression, sometimes I think
there's an easy jump to suicide.
And while, yes, you know,reoccurring thoughts of death or
suicide is a severe, on asevere end of DSM diagnosing,
(11:46):
there is to me also a very realevery day.
It's almost like the chronicaspect of chronic, you know,
just like that repeat, and thenyou know there's change in
appetites and there's loss ofsleep and those are all things
right that could also help youget out of it.
So you know, I know for me oneof the reasons that depression
and my flare-ups are sointermingled is because I lose
(12:08):
my routine.
And the second I lose myroutines that's when I go down
this like very slippery spiraland you know, you keep pushing,
you keep pushing, and but I did,I literally in my house.
I was like I am so empty rightnow, like why is this happening?
Nothing works, nothing ishappening.
I think that's the hard part,too right.
It's like doesn't always haveto be something bad happens or
(12:28):
something bad happens.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
Yeah, there doesn't have to always be a reason.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Yes, and you know that chemical imbalance, I think
sometimes is reallymisunderstood, you know, I think
we understand, I think moredepressive episodes, right, your
kid gets like chronicallydiagnosed with something or a
tragedy, a trauma, right, weunderstand that yeah they make
more sense.
Yes, out of the blue just again,and for me it doesn't feel
(12:54):
sadness.
Sometimes I wish it did feellike sadness and I could, I
think, easier pinpoint thatRight right.
But for me that emptinessdoesn't feel like an emotion and
it's harder for me to identify.
And I'm on so many medicationsI can't always look for like the
loss of appetite or the loss oflike interest in activity.
(13:14):
Because, let me tell you, thelast thing I wanted to do is
come on here and record thispodcast today.
It was down there with you know, I don't know the worst of the
worst of the things, you know.
Feelings of worthlessness, too,I think is an interesting one,
especially being a woman.
I think I struggle with myworth all the time.
It's a constant telling myselfI'm enough.
So sometimes I think theindicators that we have aren't
(13:37):
always the easiest ones to helpus navigate that.
And then I think, too,medication.
I think one of the mostfascinating things about being a
therapist is having so manypeople come to me and seeing how
they want to try to work thingsout, because sometimes you try
and you try and you try, and Inever bring up medication unless
one I can diagnose and I canrefer so that someone can get
(14:01):
medication bring up because itdoesn't feel like a solution I
can actually help with.
But you know, when you'resitting there and you're doing
CBT or you know you're doingthese modalities week after week
and you're trying to get out ofthe hole and it just feels like
you're not able to do it, youknow, sometimes I tell them
you've been putting the work in.
It should be a little easier.
(14:21):
I think you should explore this, you know, and that always gets
an interesting response,depending on where people are in
their journey.
Because, again, you know, oneof the big things is like do I
have to be on this for life?
Do I have to like?
What does this mean?
And it's so true, you know.
I think it opens up this scaryrealm of is this forever?
Speaker 3 (14:36):
Right and it's hard because I mean, I'm on the other
side of it in terms of likemedicating and stuff like that.
You know, obviously that's upto people and what they want to
do.
I am more on the holistic endsof things and there are holistic
means to try and help mentalhealth and stuff like that, but
I think it's not reallymainstream right now and I think
(14:59):
that's difficult for people tolook into that side of things
because a lot of times, right,you do, like you said, want to
get to the root cause of why youare depressed, and when you're
looking at root causes not evenjust like trauma and stuff like
that there is other parts ofyour body that could be affected
.
So it's interesting becausesometimes you can give someone a
(15:20):
prescription medication fordepression and it could make
them worse or it could not beenough, or you know you got to
not have it with something else,or so it is a lot and it's, I
think, it's difficult to try andfigure out the best way to go
for your unique individualsituation.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Well, and you know.
It's interesting that you saythat, because the number one
thing of all theseantidepressants usually is a
increased risk of suicide withinthe first two weeks of taking
it which is great right which,when you think about, when you
think about just the basics ofgiving someone who's already in
that state, that seems like ahuge risk, you know.
But you know to your point.
I also think sometimes we wanta quick fix, you know and.
(16:02):
I think a lot of you knowmedication.
I think the craziest thing ismedication, at least in my
experience professionally andtaking it it isn't going to.
The opposite of depression isnot happiness, right, it's just
not.
It's baseline, right.
It's like we're talking 10%better.
So just as little as it tookhow you started to feel that way
(16:26):
is as little as all of a suddenyou're just one day will just
be a little easier, you know andit's not.
Again, the weight of the worldcan feel on you and you would
think that you would feel thatweight lift Right.
It feels so subtle thatsometimes it's even hard to know
is this medication working?
Until I stop taking it andbecause I think that, oh, like
(16:47):
it's not, you know, I'm fine,Everything's fine, I'm regulated
, whatever have you, and then Istopped taking it and about two
weeks later I'm like okay, it'snot the worst of the worst, but
it's not.
I can feel that 10%, no longerlike there.
And you know that's where, likethe therapy, they're, like the
thought, repatterning.
I'm constantly telling peoplethat it's an everyday battle, me
(17:10):
versus my internal world.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Like period.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
And who's going to win that day?
I'm never sure.
Trying to do the right thingwhen you're tired, walk when you
don't feel like walking, youknow, like all the things like
that walking pad was.
The best thing I think I'vedone for my depression was, you
know, to keep my body moving,because I didn't know how much
is stored in your body.
So I think it's just.
I guess it still amazes me that, like in 2024, we still really
(17:37):
do struggle though having theseopen conversations.
You know you're someone whodoesn't experience it.
I'm someone that I don't knowif I would have ever identified
it as, but you know kind ofnarrowed all the things.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
It's really all I could be.
I think the conversations canbe had like we're doing right
now, if you don't haveexpectations, and what I mean by
that is I remember speaking tosomeone about depression.
They were experiencing it, orfelt like they were experiencing
it.
I, however, was seeing acompletely different side of
this person.
Right, I was seeing a personthat was depressed in only
(18:17):
certain situations, and thesesituations were situations that
limited this person's ability todo things.
This person could spend hours onhours on hours getting ready to
go out on the town and have funand do all this stuff, but then
, when it would come to doingthings for their family or
(18:38):
having things to be done, it wasthat's when they would say
they're struggling.
And then they wanted my opinionon it, and I'm like I'm not the
expert.
From my view of someone thathas never experienced it, it's
clearly something's going on,but I don't necessarily think
that it's that, and that persongot frustrated with me, but
(19:01):
again, I'm not someone thatdeals with it.
So I think that you can haveconversations like this, as long
as you both know we canexperience the same things, or
you might not be able to fullyunderstand and then just have an
open.
Just don't have an expectationthat I'm going to agree with you
or that I'm going to be like,yes, that's definitely what you
have, because that's just not myarea of expertise.
(19:24):
You know what?
Speaker 2 (19:25):
I mean, I think people want to feel validated
and that's like the struggle,you know, is like you want to
feel validated by people aroundyou and feel seen, and I think
that's part of the problem.
You know, is like if someonedoesn't know all the factors or
whatever, it can be frustratingand it can feel invalidating,
but that's not what you'retrying to do.
(19:45):
It's just that's the way thatyou see it.
You know, and I think we'vealways done a really good job of
being on sometimes oppositesides of the issue and being
like okay, I'm going to hear youout, I might not walk away
changing anything.
Agreeing with you or whatever,but like I have enough respect
for you, I care enough about youto want to hear at least what
(20:05):
you have to say about the topicand I think like we've lost that
ability to really try to diveinto that.
I think, again, covid puteveryone in this same position
where, like we, we usedepression, but the amount of
people who were like truly goingthrough depression in COVID and
the amount of people who maybeit was difficult or lonely, like
there, there was a differencethere.
But there was this like verycommon shared experience that we
(20:27):
don't always usually get right.
A country doesn't always shutdown or, you know, give people
this, but, like you said, Ithink it's, it's your trauma,
it's the way you process it,it's honest, quite literally,
chemical imbalances, you know,and all of that leading into
also stress management, you know, like I, know that I'm someone
who gets super, superoverwhelmed, especially around
(20:49):
not feeling like meetingexpectation or something of that
nature.
And having to manage that stressis a huge part of managing my
depression, Right?
Also, managing my OCD is a hugepart of managing my depression,
you know, when I start to feelobsessive thoughts again.
This is why the organizationone always makes me laugh
(21:10):
because you know it's like cutewhen it's like, oh, my OCD looks
like this.
But the difference is I can'tmove from like the bottom.
I'm like draw of my draw.
She's saying drawer, she'ssaying drawer, that's what I
mean.
But I will get stuck for hoursbecause it becomes an obsession
and then that a compulsion comesfrom the obsession and I cannot
(21:31):
, it's so, it's not.
Oh, this is cuter, this is likeI like being this organized,
like freak.
It's the difference between,yes, I like it because it's
really, if I didn't like it, Idon't have a choice.
But you know Carrie will alwayssay I will go for aesthetics
over function and I will.
Every time it's a matter of Iwill obsess over the way
something looks in my fridge ifit's because it doesn't all look
(21:54):
the same or it's not all facingand that's a hindrance in my
life.
It's fun and all.
When you're looking at you knowit's become trendy on, like you
know, TikTok and stuff to havelike these or like restock of
clocks.
But I've been doing this, likeI mean, but for as long as I can
remember.
My sister and I we wanted toshare a room when we were both
out of the house, but it was thetransition period in college
and so you were living at home,but you were not living at home
(22:15):
kind of thing, and so we likehad this great idea to live
together.
She literally moved upstairs,the smallest bedroom of the
house, because I was folding herunderwear, because I just I
couldn't open her drawers andlike look at them, Like yeah,
and she's like I just can't, Ican't live with someone who's
like I was like well, you don'thave to do it, Like it's not
affecting you, and she's like Ican't.
But like and like this was likea serious thing, Like and to
(22:37):
this day, like I fold them avery specific way that is so
funny and like all tucked innicely, like in, like again in
the most ridiculous way possible.
But it's just, it's the onlyway like I can function, you
know.
But but much like depression,like I thought that you know,
because I didn't count how manytimes I did something that was
(23:01):
an OCD, so it took me a reallylong time, even as a clinician,
to be like, oh, wow, when, whenI remember, like when I was
getting TSM, which, like Icalled it, one flew over the
cuckoo's nest like type of thing, but it wasn't, um, but to me
it still feels like it was, butlike put all these things on
your head and like essentiallylike hit certain spots of your
(23:21):
brain to try to like re rewireit.
Yes, essentially, obviously notas crazy as one.
It was a cool business, butthat's what it felt like.
It was like very like.
Now it's kind of common.
I've seen ads all over theinternet for it but when I was
getting it done in 2020, it waslike very new and I was like,
sure, mom put me in one.
Yeah, I get it, but it wasthrough that process.
(23:43):
Did we?
Did we find that, like, theroot of my depression was
actually OCD and so theyactually didn't know if it was
going to help me.
But just having the rightdiagnosis and therefore the like
shift in medications, evenunder the same umbrella, was it
was so, yeah, it matters, itdefinitely matters.
It does, and I think that justus having this conversation in
(24:05):
general starts to hopefullyallow us, like, check in with
ourselves, not be afraid to askfor help or seek professional
treatment.
You know you're not alone andthere's nothing wrong with you.
You know it's okay to need alittle help out of the dark even
if, like you know, your bestfriend doesn't need that same
help, Right, 100%.
(24:25):
So anything else on this Cece,what do you think?
Speaker 3 (24:29):
I think, just for people that are struggling, if
you don't feel like you havepeople around you, like go on.
I don't know, like if there'sgroups or you would probably
know more, christine, about thatkind of stuff, but I think, if
you're struggling, just to atleast voice it to someone so
you're not struggling alone.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
You don't have to struggle in silence.
There's places like Cabana thatare here to help and, again,
there's 17.3 million Americanadults who are going through
this at any given time.
The numbers are in your favor.
That somebody's kind ofexperiencing this, but also
suffering in silence alone,Right?
So you know?
That's it for this episode ofYou're Always Fine.
(25:11):
Join us next time as we exploreanother taboo topic.
If you enjoy the show, pleaseleave us a review.
We love hearing from you guys,and until next time, mind your
health.
Seriously, you're fine.
You're fine because you havethe power to access your place
of peace anytime you need it.
(25:32):
However, if you get stuck,we're right at the palm of your
hand to help.
Check out our show notes forthis week's source list,
recommended content and Cabanalive group schedule.
We'll catch you next week for abrand new episode of You're
Always Fine.
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!