April 30, 2024 • 36 mins
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Sitting in the stillness of a plane, David Black's encounter with a stranger began a journey of healing that would eventually bring Cabana, his mental wellness initiative, to light. As he shares with us his raw and transformative experience of facing grief, it's impossible not to reflect on the silent battles we all carry. My own path was illuminated by the unexpected sanctuary of virtual communities, where bonds formed in the digital realm offered comfort that tangible relationships sometimes lacked. Together, David and I weave a narrative that underscores the necessity of confronting our inner turmoil and the profound impact shared experiences have on our quest for emotional health.
Navigating the landscape of mental health care often feels like trekking through uncharted territory, and our discussion reveals just how much the terrain is changing. When the traditional compasses of the DSM and established therapy models fall short, innovation beckons. Through the lens of Cabana's pioneering efforts and my own clinical experiences, we traverse the delicate balance between tried-and-true practices and the pressing need for accessible, responsive support. The pandemic's harsh spotlight on mental health has only heightened the urgency for this exploration, making it clear that the path to well-being is as individual as the people seeking it.
As our conversation culminates, we map out the expansion of mental health care's horizons, focusing on the vision of a future where diverse options coexist harmoniously. Cabana's mission to democratize access to mental health services resonates with the stories of hospital employees and foreshadows a broader reach. We consider the intimate settings that foster openness, like the sanctuary of a car during a therapy session, and the importance of molding clinical wisdom to suit the practicalities of everyday life. Tune in to witness a candid exploration of how breaking down barriers can pave the way to a healthier, more resilient society.
Cabana Pods offers a therapeutic experience through immersive reality, focusing on emotional resilience. Research shows that immersive technologies tailored to one’s needs can immediately positively change well-being, mood, stress relief, and mindfulness.
Learn more about Cabana pods at https://www.yourcabana.com/pod
Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Tik Tok, or LinkedIn. Click here to check out Cabana.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome back to You're Always Fine a space to
show up for yourself and embracethe mess that lives underneath.
Because, let's be real, it'sexhausting always being fine.
So grab your headphones andallow yourself to listen, laugh
and even cry, because you arenot alone.
And we aren't always fine, andthat's okay.
And we aren't always fine, andthat's okay.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
In late 2021, I was working remotely as a therapist
and facing problems most of usdo in the profession High
caseloads, no resources forclients who need more than that
one hour a week, and theunfortunate storyline of mental
health in America today, we allknow it too well.
I was frustrated one night so Iwas doomscrolling Now don't
(00:52):
judge, I doomscroll LinkedIn.
That's when I found a joblisting for the head of mental
wellness at Cabana, and whileeasy apply is always a great
incentive, what caught myattention was their tagline the
new front door of mental health.
I'm your host, Christine, andtoday I'm excited to finally
welcome David Black, the founderCEO of Cabana and my boss.
Let's get into it, David.
(01:12):
Welcome to.
You're Always Fine.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Hey, Christine, Thanks for having me.
I'm excited to get to share alittle bit chat with you.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
So there's a lot to get into today, but one thing I
know for sure about business isthat the ones that succeed
there's always a strong why.
So let's go ahead and rewindback to 2019.
, and could you share with uswhat was happening in that time
in your life?
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Sure, so I will.
If we're going to go in a wayback machine, I'll wind back
even further to 2017.
So my background's, allhealthcare.
I took a role actually back in2016, working at Johns Hopkins
Medicine and wound up ininsurance of all places, which I
(02:00):
didn't expect my career path totake me there, but I was doing
work for all sorts ofpopulations Medicare Advantage,
employers and just reallylearning about how we pay for
healthcare in the US market.
I also, when I started atHopkins back in 2016, actually
(02:20):
lost my dad to a late-stagecancer diagnosis and it was
about three months time ofnotice, which, from a silver
lining perspective, was greatbecause I had a chance to spend
time with him, work throughchallenges, have those
meaningful conversations thatnot everybody gets, but I didn't
talk with anyone about that.
(02:41):
So in 2016 into 2017, in thatyear I started a grad school
program while working full time.
I got promoted and so I had abigger role, managing a bigger
team, and then my second son,colin, was actually born in
October of 2017.
And so I was.
I was busy, staying busy, andjust didn't realize that I
(03:07):
hadn't talked to anyone actuallyabout my dad.
I just kind of processed thatchallenge as part of life's
journey, and I found myself inNovember, into November, after
Thanksgiving, which was justabout the anniversary from when
my dad passed.
I was on a flight for work andI sat next to a stranger on the
plane who was headed to hisdad's funeral and it had been
(03:30):
the anniversary and so I shared.
I'd actually lost my dad and westart talking just two
strangers on a plane and Irealized that his dad had passed
for the exact same cancer thatI'd lost my dad to, and very
quickly that just'd lost my dadto, and very quickly.
That just accelerated thediscussion for us.
And we spent the rest of theflight talking about what it was
(03:52):
like.
I kind of felt like I'd foundsomeone just by the stars
aligning, who was on a similarpath as me but was just at a
different point in it.
And I walked off that flightrealizing I hadn't talked to
anyone about it and kind ofsurprised for myself that I
hadn't done that, but also howmuch I needed that, how much
(04:12):
value I found talking to someonewho was going through a similar
experience as me.
And I kept thinking about twothings after that flight.
One was how amazing was it thatI just stars aligned.
I sat next to a person who'sgoing through something similar
and also, what made me feelcomfortable the fact that it
(04:33):
went from two strangers on aplane to a really deep
conversation really quickly waspretty powerful for me.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Can I ask a quick question?
Um at the time as you'reprocessing this, you know, and
trying to get to like the whydid you?
Um, also kind of reflective,like, like, were you actively
against it, or was it more likea subconscious, like I haven't
talked to someone and like thedays become months, become years
, or, um, was there like aresistance you didn't know and
(05:03):
then that became comfortable forsome reason?
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Yeah, I don't know if I've.
I definitely haven't thought ofit that way.
I know that it didn't hit meuntil after that flight happened
that I realized I hadn't reallytalked to anyone about it.
I'd had friends or familyexpress the I'm so sorry for you
, but my response when I gotthat comment was, to an extent,
(05:33):
I appreciate it, thank you, butyou haven't been there.
So it was this kind of justnumbness of feeling like my
experience was really unique andnot not having someone that was
a friend that I could relate to.
Um, I had family members, butjust the kind of nuance of where
I was in my career.
It just didn't feel asrelatable to me.
(05:54):
Um, so I didn't, I didn't talkabout it.
I really only noticed it afterthat, when I would do these
rides home from work and thecommute was when I'd always call
my dad and that was just anempty space.
So I had these moments where Iwas just thinking and so I
reflected after the flight of ohgosh, those were lonely points
(06:17):
in the time where I felt thevoid in my life more than any
other time.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
You know, I'm smiling right now because we've worked
together for two years and Ibuild the content here and we've
talked often about this commutetime, commute meditation and
stuff.
And it wasn't until this momentand I've heard this story a few
times and it wasn't until thismoment where I'm like, oh my
gosh, like that's like part ofthe onion of like when you're
asked when we talk about doingthings in commute time, because
you're right, the car is a hugelike void.
(06:41):
Anyway, just a moment for me tokind of connect it and be like
wow, he's not just saying thatbecause, like you know, the data
says that, but that's like apersonal point of why it's
probably important to you, toyou know, I think you've
recorded like a commutemeditation and stuff.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
anyway, just a moment that I was like wow, that's
well, yeah, I think the kind offast forward here is I got off
that plane and then a week laterat work was looking at a
statistic that people take along time to seek support and
the number didn't feelbelievable to me.
It was 11 years on average.
And after that flight it mademore sense to me because I
(07:20):
realized I'd been going a yearwithout actually doing anything.
Having those kind of emptyrides where I was would have
benefited from having some levelof support, but wasn't.
I wasn't going to raise my handin a room and say I need to
talk to a therapist and right,wrong or indifferent, it just
the convenience factor of it aswell as just the self-reliance
(07:41):
factor.
I'm stubborn.
I try to do house projectsbefore hiring a professional for
it.
That's worked in some areas andI've gotten dirty or shocked in
other areas.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
It's, it's that table incident when we set up the
office too.
Can't let you go on that one,yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
So you know, the reality is I realized that I was
part of that statistic and, um,just the kind of stars aligned
for me on a couple levels whereI had that personal experience
that connected me to a why,which is too few folks seek
support soon enough, and and andfor practical reasons, comfort
(08:24):
and convenience.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
And I think you know everything you were talking
about when you were saying whatwas going on in your life, right
, I don't think anyone, right,like our brains are wired to
protect us.
Just, you know, to like keepthe status quo.
So you had a lot of things tooccupy, you were pulled in a
bunch of different areas thatmade it easy to realize like, oh
wow, it feels like it wasyesterday, but it was a year ago
(08:47):
, you know, and I think there'sno shortage of excuses.
Yes, exactly Just being a dad oftwo, I mean, and a husband, and
you know, a career is a lot.
And you know, I think you bringup a great point too that we
don't really talk about a lot,which is we have this
expectation, right, that if wehave a close family or we have a
good marriage there, that's theperson you tell everything to
(09:11):
and you talk to that person andunfortunately that's that's not
the case.
That's like that's not a death,like, yes, you need good
communication in the, in theunit, but your marriage isn't
defined by you going to yourwife and talking to her about
the grief you're experiencing,or not, right, every microcosm
has its own dynamic and, um, youknow, I find it personally hard
(09:35):
when I'm with my own therapistso I've been with for years now
to say what I want to say or getit out Like it's just not.
You know, we all struggle withthat, that vulnerability, even
in the safest places that's.
You know my therapist alwayslaughs because I always do my
therapy in the car.
She's like but no one's there.
I'm like, yes, however, it justfor whatever reason, that that
feels like, you know, safe, andso I think it's easy to be like
(09:55):
oh, you have a great supportsystem, but again that's that
you're hitting on, you know, isshared connection, in which,
again, there was an ease to beon the same plane at the same
time, in the same moment, thatyou know that vulnerability like
whatever that vulnerability didor whatever that path was
(10:16):
forged for you for the nextthree hours so many things could
have gone wrong.
He puts his headphones inbefore he says am I sitting here
?
And the whole thing changes.
And so I think that's one ofthe when I hear I'm not
surprised at all about that 11year statistic, I think, again,
part of that is because it'slike, oh well, something must be
(10:52):
really wrong if I can't talk tomy super supportive wife or my
brother or and that's not reallythe case of you know.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
I would say I fell probably in that languishing to
moderate well-being spectrumwhere I may not have met a
clinical diagnosis at thatmoment, but I was having ups and
downs and it just somethingabout that plane made it
comfortable for me.
I've been spending a lot oftime since then thinking about
(11:20):
social networks, the type ofsupport that we get, who we get
that from, and there's a conceptof weak tie versus strong tie
networks and I think we'vetalked about this a little bit.
The spouse is that strong tienetwork but there's a lot of
value we get from strong tie butthere's also a tremendous
amount of value that we get fromweak tie networks, these
(11:42):
in-passing interactions that wehave with strangers, where we
can control what we're sharing,how we're sharing.
In that and it's not aeverything that happens in Vegas
stays in Vegas type ofexperience.
It's just an element of I canfind more transactional level
support from someone and I canask questions that don't have a
(12:05):
ripple effect into my wholerelationship or persona.
I'm not ruining my friendshipsby raising questions you're
going to maybe read too muchinto when it's just a question.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Well, two things come to my mind.
One I resonate with that sodeeply because I think you so
eloquently put like why it wasalways easier to talk to the
internet or like go on and talkabout my disease or what I was
experiencing.
I felt such like again my levelof understanding this as a
therapist, I think, has onlybeen amplified by my personal
experience with this to reallyunderstand what that darkness
(12:42):
looks like when you don't knowyou're in the darkness and how,
again, like people I've nevermet, people from across the
world, you know connecting likeit's been incredible and
sometimes it feels weird.
You know it feels weird that Iknow at one point Carrie was
like she would.
She was really hurt.
You know we had to like go intosession about it because she
(13:03):
felt like I could connect toanybody but her.
She was right.
Everything she said made mefeel guilty about my disease.
I miss when you cook dinner.
She was trying to connect withme.
All I heard was something elseI wasn't doing.
And so, to your point, I thinkwe hear it as weak.
But the other example I knowit's not a great one is, I
(13:24):
always say when people aretalking about cheating, right,
it is so easy to have an affair.
Think about it.
You get all the best parts ofsomething and none of the strike
right, like it's none of thework.
It's, you know, of course, likethat's an appealing option, you
know.
But in the same way it kind ofties to this too.
You know, like I could talkabout rare disease period.
I mean, for the first fiveyears of rare, I never even said
(13:48):
I was a therapist because Inever wanted anyone to know or
think that like I like thatwasn't the role I wanted to hold
there and I got to do that.
You were the keeper ofinformation in this way.
So I think that it's likethat's a really deep thing there
.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
Yeah, there's.
No, there's no history there,crowds, what you're trying to
get across or what type ofsupport that you're looking for,
and so it's.
You know I don't think it'semotional baggage by any means,
but but it's.
There are different types ofways for us to get support, yeah
, and and where we feelcomfortable in the moment can
(14:24):
vary.
It's why you mentioned kind ofbeing comfortable in your car.
Now, there is some privacy thatthat afforded to you that has
now been translated into justthis is where I'm most
comfortable, where I candisclose what feels safe to me,
irrespective of who's in thehouse and who isn't.
So you've created anenvironment that's comfortable
for you and that may differdepending on the social setting,
(14:46):
the support you're getting forand topic right.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Like you know, I think different topics cause
like again, like different space.
You know, like I could talk toanybody about, like when I was,
when I'm sitting in a therapistseat doesn't matter where I am,
you know.
But I also know that, like, ifcertain clients see something
different, it will be like a 10to 20 minute conversation where
they're like going through thechecklist of what makes them
feel comfortable and of course Iallow them to.
(15:10):
I'm like, no, I'm just in adifferent house, I'm in a closed
, you know.
But again like that level of ofcomfort which I think ties back
into so this whole journeywhere, okay, you get off the
plane and now you're going backhome to.
You know how do you go back to?
You know, like, so this is inyour mind, but you have to go
back to work and life and kidsLike, so what happens next?
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Well, so I I have this flight just plants this
seed in my head of gosh.
I needed that.
And what was comfortable aboutme talking?
Kind of wondering how I went soquickly into talking with a
complete stranger aboutsomething that felt very
personal to me.
And a week after, I was in gradschool and we had class on the
(15:55):
weekends and this was one ofthose times where I was in
person and I see a classmate ofmine who's a Green Beret veteran
has an app that he wantsfeedback on and it was for a
military audience, but he justwanted people to try it out and
get feedback and it was avirtual reality app at the time
and I tried it and ittransported me to another place.
(16:19):
It was literally practicinglanguage in another country just
outside of DC, and I feltsomewhere else.
And that experience got methinking about space and about
digital space, and I had beendoing lots of Zoom calls for
work and I was just annoyed atjust how we took a camera and
(16:43):
slapped it on what would be anin-person interaction and called
it digital.
And so that kind of experience,which I think just happened to
be so close to me taking thisflight gelled the concept of.
We really haven't done muchwhen it comes to innovating
digital spaces, in particular toprompt a desired output.
(17:06):
We've created Zoom fatigue andwe've created anxiety at looking
at ourselves in our own imagewhen we're on these web calls.
We've had unintendedconsequences.
We haven't actually steppedback.
And how do we want people tofeel when they're in a digital
space?
And I started thinking aboutthe power of designing a digital
(17:28):
medium to not only make youfeel comfortable but to connect
you with those people who aren'tin your social network but are
on that same part of journey, soyou could get that form of
support, kind of recreating theflight experience.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Like I said, I guess I never realized how close these
two events were together,because I get like, change one
thing, change everything.
These two events were togetherbecause, again, like change one
thing, change everything.
And, um, you know, I think it'sreally crazy that, had it,
would have just been like one ofthose things where you're like,
oh wow, vr is a cool thing.
I'll, you know, I'll go to aTaylor Swift concert when they,
you know, as opposed to it beingin a certain sequence in which,
(18:04):
like I can give, like thatcould be where, like I don't
know, I feel like that's areally again, something that has
to be so vulnerable in order tostick with you long enough that
when the next piece falls intoplace, yeah, it really just felt
like it wasn't one singlemoment where it was a series of
events that happened to just gelthis concept in my head, but it
(18:27):
happened over the span of abouttwo and a half weeks.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
And then it became this concept of using a digital
space to create groups andmoderated support.
And it became this, this ideathat I couldn't shake.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
I was just going to say and then the entrepreneurial
bug like, cause, I've beenthere and where it's like you
cannot explain where you get thestrength, or to like, do both.
Where it's like you workingfull-time and then you're
building all night and but Iknow exactly what you're talking
about when you believe insomething so much where that,
like you can't stop until it'scoming.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Yeah it, I mean it was.
It was very much right time,right place for me.
Um, so that personal elementhappens.
I then have a classmate who hasme thinking about the medium,
but then the sheer process of mebeing in grad school had me
priming myself.
I built a level of confidencein my own abilities to not be
(19:21):
someone as a spectator, butactually you know, think about
the Roosevelt quote to be aperson in the arena actually
create something.
And and so I I don't think, hadI had this flight and had that
experience without the sametiming of going through that
grad school piece and andrealizing less about where do I
(19:42):
want to find a job and moreabout where do I want to where
do I want to look back 10 yearsfrom now and say I did this, I
helped create this.
It became much more about mywhy and it was just a function
of of timing for me.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
So okay.
So here's my next big question,and that has to do with cause.
I know when that bug hits right, like and if, and it becomes,
honestly, it feels a little bitlike an addiction.
You know, like when you knowsomething is just so good you
can't ignore it.
Maybe that's the new quote,david we're no longer going to
wait for other people.
Be so good, you can't ignoreyourself, but not gonna lie.
(20:18):
So like you're getting into aspace you've never been into,
right, like you're not aclinician.
You've had this I mean by yourown words essentially pushed off
your own mental health for ayear.
Um, and so I guess my, myquestion is like, when did that?
Um, the you?
(20:38):
You've built the thing rightCabana, Cabana exists right.
So you get to the top of thatmountain and then you're like,
oh wow, you know you can't bethe entrepreneur or the person
like that, that spark can't lastforever, kind of thing.
Like you know, it's got to bemaintained now.
Um, when did you, or like everthink like either like oh my god
, I built this, but like Ihaven't even done therapy, or oh
(20:59):
my god, I built this and I,like you know, I mean like some
sort of maybe imposter syndrome,or maybe it's, um you know, did
you ever circle back on yourown mental health or how did
that kind of shake after youkind of did the thing?
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Oh yeah, I think every entrepreneur I've met it
is a support group.
Every time you get more than oneentrepreneur talking to another
in a room because there's, bydefinition, you're doing
something that hasn't been donebefore.
Definition, you're doingsomething that hasn't been done
before, and so it comes with awhole host of doubts about.
(21:33):
You know, from the concept, theapproach, the knowing, the
balance between am I beingstubborn versus being passionate
, versus being wrong, uh and?
And also just needing to listento people.
And so there is, there's a veryhumbling experience that goes
into, at least for me, where youhave this idea and you have
(21:58):
versions of self humility andguidance from others, the better
off you are at addressing thoseself-doubts.
So, case in point, I'm not amental health professional.
(22:22):
I don't play one on TV.
I don't pretend to be one.
I'm just someone that has beenon the business side of
healthcare and seen frustrationsabout the fact that we don't
have enough providers.
We have a payment system thatin some cases doesn't pay enough
to those providers and we havea whole swath of people 50 plus,
depending on the state thatnever seek support.
(22:44):
So, like we, we have afunctional problem in the system
.
That I am confident I know wellenough.
But I also am confident thatthere are a lot of clinical
experts out there that can helpus.
So it becomes more aboutunderstanding your role and
where do you go and find theright expertise to help.
So what role do I play?
What role do others play?
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Well, I mean, I remember very, remember very, I
mean in my interview, likecrystal clear, remember it.
Um, when you said to me that,essentially, like, this isn't a
sustainable system, and goingback to the beginning of the
episode, I told you 96 clients,I was, I I felt so seen by that
one sentence of like you couldbe doing great work, but like
(23:27):
you, you can't.
Like it's not, you isn't,you're not the problem.
You know it's like this is notmade to work.
And it was the first time I'veever in the profession, ever
been empowered to blow the boxup.
Essentially, you know, becausein school and the way we
practice and insurance, like youknow it's, we talked about this
a lot.
You know it's the never endingthe, the never ending hamster
(23:47):
wheel, um, and there's notenough professionals.
And that was when, for me, whenI was like you know, cause it is
scary as a professional beinglike, um, the only clinician in
the room or being like, oh, no,we're going to go into corporate
, you know it's, first of all,society tells us how to, you
know, like, creates these likeum things where it's like, oh,
you know there's a people who gointo this, and because they
(24:09):
care and the people who go tobusiness because of this.
And so I know for me it wasinstantaneous where I'm like
again what I felt, like again atherapeutic moment where you
were just like allowed me to be,like, yes, like there's so many
other ways we could helpsupport.
And you know, I mean very earlyon, even when we were creating.
(24:31):
I mean then it was the balanceeight, but you know now what is
now known as the balance self.
You know you had said to me youwere just like forget the
textbook, like you know, andagain, we, we go by the DSM, the
this, the that, and it has beensuch a refreshing thing to be
able to work here.
And essentially, where I thinkthis like you're when you say
(24:52):
you surround yourself withpeople that like have the
expertise where I feel we'vegone head to head people.
If you're wondering, we go headto head often, david and I, in
a very healthy way.
But you know he's not afraid tochallenge old school thinking
or challenge any of it, and I'mnot afraid to be like, hey, we
need more clinical voice in this.
But I think that's what also isso beautiful about one.
(25:13):
You can confidently say thatthat's like truly combating
imposter syndrome.
That's an action right,surrounding yourself with people
that you trust, to do that withsomething that you hold so
close to you, like through thoseactions.
You know, I think that again,like innovation is like what I
think of when I think of Kabaddi.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
You know, even in a world where you know we have so
many mental health apps, yeahWell, you know I also will say I
get in this role, I get achance to talk to a number of
clinical professionals in this,and every time I go into a
clinical professionalconversation I know I'm not a
clinician but I also know I'vespent the past seven years
(25:56):
reading a ton of literatureabout what we are doing in the
therapy community, in the mentalhealth community in general,
across the behavioral spectrum,and to hear clinicians give
feedback about how what we'redoing fits into their clinical
models, fills, a gap, finds,needs.
I mean those conversations arewhat increase my confidence
(26:17):
level in the direction we'regoing and the need for support.
So I'm not standing here sayingwe're blowing up the model in
the conventional sense, Like atherapist is out of a job.
No, I'm.
I'm saying this in the sensethat we've got an incredible
product in one-to-one therapythat is in a storefront and
we've blacked out the windows.
We've made the door reallydifficult to find and also
(26:40):
really expensive for you to gointo and, as a result, so many
people are walking past thatdoor and so that is great that
we have that solution there, butit is not meeting all the
current need and we've got to dosomething about it Well, and I
think we've always known this.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
But I think what COVID did was it because, like
right, the idea of if I wouldhave told my like baby, right
out of school self that like oneday I would be on the computer,
on the phone, doing this work,I'd be like okay, and you know,
um, there's life on my I don'tknow like something silly,
because it's just unthinkable.
And I think COVID, I think whatis really unique about Cabana
(27:18):
is, again, I don't, I've alwaysloved that you've never tried to
replace this.
You know what I mean.
Like there's no replacement,there's a spot for everyone.
I believe that you know it's acontinuum.
But what I think has always beenreally well done is that, um,
we don't have to do it just oneway, um, and that's what I think
(27:41):
is like limited in theprofession, you know.
So COVID happens, and this,what it highlighted for me was
okay, even you take away thebarrier right of, like physical
location, which is a big enoughbarrier, and now you know what
you again, not that they'resuper affordable, they're more
affordable through these things,and you have now you're even
lowering the standards becausewe're licensed across, like
(28:03):
there were so many things thatopened up with COVID, with the
big you know talk spaces and allthat, and it was still a huge
problem, like you know.
There were still so manyunderserved.
And that was a feeling when Iwas doing scrolling on LinkedIn
when I saw this.
It was like a lifeline to beinglike again something that seems
so simple now, two yearsworking with you, but at the
(28:25):
time it was more like, oh, thiscould even be again.
Easy apply is great because youknow you didn't spend much time
on the application.
When you're like, okay, I don'teven know, these people are
probably bots, because you knowit seems too good to be true.
But again, I think just to yourpoint about two pieces having
to come together at the righttime.
I think COVID amplified that.
How many barriers there areoutside of the barriers that we
(28:49):
were we originally knew?
And then, um, again without youcoming and almost again blowing
that box open for me, um, itdoesn't happen.
You know what I mean.
Like I walked past that doortoo, like as a therapist, and I
go next door, never talk to you,and continue just the cycle of
seeing clients and trying to doas much good as I can.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
I think we're the only ones recognizing this.
You're seeing this happenalready right now, where there
are different opportunities forindividuals to find support.
I do feel much of theinnovation that's happening
(29:32):
right now is just trying to fixthe door, or maybe the window
dressing on that one-to-onetherapy model, if you will, but
isn't addressing the fact thatthere just aren't enough people
to go around and also that forsome individuals, particularly a
lower income population,therapy is an elective.
(29:56):
It's an elective procedure.
If you are choosing betweenwhere to spend $165, which is
the average outpatient copay forsomeone that's out of network
and an expectation may not justbe one conversation but could in
fact be multiple conversationto build that relationship,
you're staring at a potentiallya thousand dollar cashflow
expense for someone that may beliving paycheck to paycheck.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
And even the insured, though right Like with EAPs.
They're a great solution, butunfortunately I can't tell you
how many times I'm begging EAPsto give me mind you, we're
talking two more sessionsbecause there's no asking for
infinite or mental healthmaintenance.
There's none of that.
You know I'm begging, I amfighting and, letter after
letter, for two sessions to beapproved.
You know, or enough so that Icould, like feel like I'm
(30:38):
handing someone off with, Idon't know, some confidence that
I've done no harm.
Or you know, it's not in themiddle, because how much do you
really get done in six sessions?
I mean, let's be real.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
Yeah, it is.
It is tough.
So you know.
The point here is that is onemodel that we have been trying
to use to apply to everyoneacross the spectrum, and if
we're willing to pay for it andif the funds are there and we
can make it work, great.
But it's an expensive model andit is not going to be something
(31:08):
that we can scale.
We haven't demonstrated thatwe're able to scale that to meet
all the needs.
We just haven't.
Even for COVID, we haven't.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
That's what I'm saying.
Covid was our best shot of evenaccepting that's what I felt.
The 96 case loads when I toldyou I'm like, yeah, and again we
get people to pay that fee bysaying 24-hour therapist, you
know, and all those things.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
And so I'd love to know kind of you've been in this
now for Cabana's been around.
I think May 5th is, so for us,cinco de Mayo is actually
Cabanaversary, for when welaunched Cabana, we've, as a
company, have been around justaround four years getting our
starts within the Air Force, butCabana the work we've been
doing for those groups startedCinco de Mayo.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
I see how much I've learned as, just like a person,
professionally, what, where are?
What era are you?
You know like where, where doyou see now it going?
And you know, with the also thefact that now we're in a post
COVID world and that has changed.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
but that a lot has changed because of that too.
Yeah, so we've been workingwith health systems hospital
employers for going on threeyears now.
If you think about individualsthat work in a hospital setting,
it crosses, there's so manyroles in a 24-7 operation that
runs.
That actually workingsupporting every employee across
(32:44):
a hospital system has been agood test case for us at
supporting the generaldemographic across the US,
across really any employer, andthe model we've built we feel
applies completely based off thedata that we've seen in the
outcome.
So for us, this is about how dowe take a model makes mental
health care support way moreaffordable, significantly more
(33:07):
accessible?
We're talking drop-in support.
How do we just make thatavailable to a larger population
?
So for us, it's about expandingour reach.
No-transcript.
(33:50):
So you want to have a spacethat feels comfortable for you,
and many people attend therapysessions not at home, not in
their bedrooms, but in the car,because there might be a loved
one that you don't want tooverhear or just to risk it.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
So even if you're not talking about them, right, like
that's a, it's the craziestthing.
But, to your point, where doyou feel safe?
And I think it's really nice tolike you know a lot of what we
do is talking about you know,like um, finding your cabana,
like mentally, so that no matterwhere you are right, like you
can get to a safe space, becauselocation and visualization, we
know, is so big in order to stopthat fight or flight, big or
(34:31):
small.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
Yeah.
So when I think aboutaccessibility, there are many
ways that we can make somethingfeel more accessible to someone,
and that is always as you thinkabout the design of the
experience.
It's great if you have effective16 week long program, but if
it's not designed to meet theperson where they are in their
(34:53):
real life, then it is sitting ona shelf being dusted off if you
can convince someone.
So we're very much focused onhow do we take the science and
the body of knowledge of what weknow works for individuals from
a clinical perspective and justadapt it so that it meets real
life challenges.
From where do you feelcomfortable getting support, the
physical space itself, to howdo you like to engage, to how
(35:16):
much time do you actually have?
Now, if I have a 60 minuterequirement but you only have
five, let's find a five minuteoption that helps you in that
busy moment, those three minuteoptions.
So the piece that we're focusedon is there are common barriers
.
There's the convenience ofstuff.
There's the privacy that I needto feel, the trust I need to
feel from who's delivering that,and then there's also just this
(35:38):
I want to be able to havecontrol over how I do something,
the self-reliance on it, and soeverything we're building maps
to some of those barriers thatkeep you from getting support.
Speaker 4 (35:49):
Well, here looks like a good place to stop.
This episode was too good toonly be one, so join us Thursday
as we continue the conversationwith David Until.
Then, mind your health.
Seriously, you're fine.
You're fine because you havethe power to access your place
of peace anytime you need it.
However, if you get stuck,we're right at the palm of your
hand to help check out our shownotes for this week's source
(36:12):
list, recommended content andcabana live group schedule.
We'll catch you next week for abrand new episode of you're
always fine.
Welcome back to You're Always Fine a space to
show up for yourself and embracethe mess that lives underneath.
Because, let's be real, it'sexhausting always being fine.
So grab your headphones andallow yourself to listen, laugh
and even cry, because you arenot alone.
And we aren't always fine, andthat's okay.
And we aren't always fine, andthat's okay.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
In late 2021, I was working remotely as a therapist
and facing problems most of usdo in the profession High
caseloads, no resources forclients who need more than that
one hour a week, and theunfortunate storyline of mental
health in America today, we allknow it too well.
I was frustrated one night so Iwas doomscrolling Now don't
(00:52):
judge, I doomscroll LinkedIn.
That's when I found a joblisting for the head of mental
wellness at Cabana, and whileeasy apply is always a great
incentive, what caught myattention was their tagline the
new front door of mental health.
I'm your host, Christine, andtoday I'm excited to finally
welcome David Black, the founderCEO of Cabana and my boss.
Let's get into it, David.
(01:12):
Welcome to.
You're Always Fine.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Hey, Christine, Thanks for having me.
I'm excited to get to share alittle bit chat with you.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
So there's a lot to get into today, but one thing I
know for sure about business isthat the ones that succeed
there's always a strong why.
So let's go ahead and rewindback to 2019.
, and could you share with uswhat was happening in that time
in your life?
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Sure, so I will.
If we're going to go in a wayback machine, I'll wind back
even further to 2017.
So my background's, allhealthcare.
I took a role actually back in2016, working at Johns Hopkins
Medicine and wound up ininsurance of all places, which I
(02:00):
didn't expect my career path totake me there, but I was doing
work for all sorts ofpopulations Medicare Advantage,
employers and just reallylearning about how we pay for
healthcare in the US market.
I also, when I started atHopkins back in 2016, actually
(02:20):
lost my dad to a late-stagecancer diagnosis and it was
about three months time ofnotice, which, from a silver
lining perspective, was greatbecause I had a chance to spend
time with him, work throughchallenges, have those
meaningful conversations thatnot everybody gets, but I didn't
talk with anyone about that.
(02:41):
So in 2016 into 2017, in thatyear I started a grad school
program while working full time.
I got promoted and so I had abigger role, managing a bigger
team, and then my second son,colin, was actually born in
October of 2017.
And so I was.
I was busy, staying busy, andjust didn't realize that I
(03:07):
hadn't talked to anyone actuallyabout my dad.
I just kind of processed thatchallenge as part of life's
journey, and I found myself inNovember, into November, after
Thanksgiving, which was justabout the anniversary from when
my dad passed.
I was on a flight for work andI sat next to a stranger on the
plane who was headed to hisdad's funeral and it had been
(03:30):
the anniversary and so I shared.
I'd actually lost my dad and westart talking just two
strangers on a plane and Irealized that his dad had passed
for the exact same cancer thatI'd lost my dad to, and very
quickly that just'd lost my dadto, and very quickly.
That just accelerated thediscussion for us.
And we spent the rest of theflight talking about what it was
(03:52):
like.
I kind of felt like I'd foundsomeone just by the stars
aligning, who was on a similarpath as me but was just at a
different point in it.
And I walked off that flightrealizing I hadn't talked to
anyone about it and kind ofsurprised for myself that I
hadn't done that, but also howmuch I needed that, how much
(04:12):
value I found talking to someonewho was going through a similar
experience as me.
And I kept thinking about twothings after that flight.
One was how amazing was it thatI just stars aligned.
I sat next to a person who'sgoing through something similar
and also, what made me feelcomfortable the fact that it
(04:33):
went from two strangers on aplane to a really deep
conversation really quickly waspretty powerful for me.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Can I ask a quick question?
Um at the time as you'reprocessing this, you know, and
trying to get to like the whydid you?
Um, also kind of reflective,like, like, were you actively
against it, or was it more likea subconscious, like I haven't
talked to someone and like thedays become months, become years
, or, um, was there like aresistance you didn't know and
(05:03):
then that became comfortable forsome reason?
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Yeah, I don't know if I've.
I definitely haven't thought ofit that way.
I know that it didn't hit meuntil after that flight happened
that I realized I hadn't reallytalked to anyone about it.
I'd had friends or familyexpress the I'm so sorry for you
, but my response when I gotthat comment was, to an extent,
(05:33):
I appreciate it, thank you, butyou haven't been there.
So it was this kind of justnumbness of feeling like my
experience was really unique andnot not having someone that was
a friend that I could relate to.
Um, I had family members, butjust the kind of nuance of where
I was in my career.
It just didn't feel asrelatable to me.
(05:54):
Um, so I didn't, I didn't talkabout it.
I really only noticed it afterthat, when I would do these
rides home from work and thecommute was when I'd always call
my dad and that was just anempty space.
So I had these moments where Iwas just thinking and so I
reflected after the flight of ohgosh, those were lonely points
(06:17):
in the time where I felt thevoid in my life more than any
other time.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
You know, I'm smiling right now because we've worked
together for two years and Ibuild the content here and we've
talked often about this commutetime, commute meditation and
stuff.
And it wasn't until this momentand I've heard this story a few
times and it wasn't until thismoment where I'm like, oh my
gosh, like that's like part ofthe onion of like when you're
asked when we talk about doingthings in commute time, because
you're right, the car is a hugelike void.
(06:41):
Anyway, just a moment for me tokind of connect it and be like
wow, he's not just saying thatbecause, like you know, the data
says that, but that's like apersonal point of why it's
probably important to you, toyou know, I think you've
recorded like a commutemeditation and stuff.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
anyway, just a moment that I was like wow, that's
well, yeah, I think the kind offast forward here is I got off
that plane and then a week laterat work was looking at a
statistic that people take along time to seek support and
the number didn't feelbelievable to me.
It was 11 years on average.
And after that flight it mademore sense to me because I
(07:20):
realized I'd been going a yearwithout actually doing anything.
Having those kind of emptyrides where I was would have
benefited from having some levelof support, but wasn't.
I wasn't going to raise my handin a room and say I need to
talk to a therapist and right,wrong or indifferent, it just
the convenience factor of it aswell as just the self-reliance
(07:41):
factor.
I'm stubborn.
I try to do house projectsbefore hiring a professional for
it.
That's worked in some areas andI've gotten dirty or shocked in
other areas.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
It's, it's that table incident when we set up the
office too.
Can't let you go on that one,yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
So you know, the reality is I realized that I was
part of that statistic and, um,just the kind of stars aligned
for me on a couple levels whereI had that personal experience
that connected me to a why,which is too few folks seek
support soon enough, and and andfor practical reasons, comfort
(08:24):
and convenience.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
And I think you know everything you were talking
about when you were saying whatwas going on in your life, right
, I don't think anyone, right,like our brains are wired to
protect us.
Just, you know, to like keepthe status quo.
So you had a lot of things tooccupy, you were pulled in a
bunch of different areas thatmade it easy to realize like, oh
wow, it feels like it wasyesterday, but it was a year ago
(08:47):
, you know, and I think there'sno shortage of excuses.
Yes, exactly Just being a dad oftwo, I mean, and a husband, and
you know, a career is a lot.
And you know, I think you bringup a great point too that we
don't really talk about a lot,which is we have this
expectation, right, that if wehave a close family or we have a
good marriage there, that's theperson you tell everything to
(09:11):
and you talk to that person andunfortunately that's that's not
the case.
That's like that's not a death,like, yes, you need good
communication in the, in theunit, but your marriage isn't
defined by you going to yourwife and talking to her about
the grief you're experiencing,or not, right, every microcosm
has its own dynamic and, um, youknow, I find it personally hard
(09:35):
when I'm with my own therapistso I've been with for years now
to say what I want to say or getit out Like it's just not.
You know, we all struggle withthat, that vulnerability, even
in the safest places that's.
You know my therapist alwayslaughs because I always do my
therapy in the car.
She's like but no one's there.
I'm like, yes, however, it justfor whatever reason, that that
feels like, you know, safe, andso I think it's easy to be like
(09:55):
oh, you have a great supportsystem, but again that's that
you're hitting on, you know, isshared connection, in which,
again, there was an ease to beon the same plane at the same
time, in the same moment, thatyou know that vulnerability like
whatever that vulnerability didor whatever that path was
(10:16):
forged for you for the nextthree hours so many things could
have gone wrong.
He puts his headphones inbefore he says am I sitting here
?
And the whole thing changes.
And so I think that's one ofthe when I hear I'm not
surprised at all about that 11year statistic, I think, again,
part of that is because it'slike, oh well, something must be
(10:52):
really wrong if I can't talk tomy super supportive wife or my
brother or and that's not reallythe case of you know.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
I would say I fell probably in that languishing to
moderate well-being spectrumwhere I may not have met a
clinical diagnosis at thatmoment, but I was having ups and
downs and it just somethingabout that plane made it
comfortable for me.
I've been spending a lot oftime since then thinking about
(11:20):
social networks, the type ofsupport that we get, who we get
that from, and there's a conceptof weak tie versus strong tie
networks and I think we'vetalked about this a little bit.
The spouse is that strong tienetwork but there's a lot of
value we get from strong tie butthere's also a tremendous
amount of value that we get fromweak tie networks, these
(11:42):
in-passing interactions that wehave with strangers, where we
can control what we're sharing,how we're sharing.
In that and it's not aeverything that happens in Vegas
stays in Vegas type ofexperience.
It's just an element of I canfind more transactional level
support from someone and I canask questions that don't have a
(12:05):
ripple effect into my wholerelationship or persona.
I'm not ruining my friendshipsby raising questions you're
going to maybe read too muchinto when it's just a question.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Well, two things come to my mind.
One I resonate with that sodeeply because I think you so
eloquently put like why it wasalways easier to talk to the
internet or like go on and talkabout my disease or what I was
experiencing.
I felt such like again my levelof understanding this as a
therapist, I think, has onlybeen amplified by my personal
experience with this to reallyunderstand what that darkness
(12:42):
looks like when you don't knowyou're in the darkness and how,
again, like people I've nevermet, people from across the
world, you know connecting likeit's been incredible and
sometimes it feels weird.
You know it feels weird that Iknow at one point Carrie was
like she would.
She was really hurt.
You know we had to like go intosession about it because she
(13:03):
felt like I could connect toanybody but her.
She was right.
Everything she said made mefeel guilty about my disease.
I miss when you cook dinner.
She was trying to connect withme.
All I heard was something elseI wasn't doing.
And so, to your point, I thinkwe hear it as weak.
But the other example I knowit's not a great one is, I
(13:24):
always say when people aretalking about cheating, right,
it is so easy to have an affair.
Think about it.
You get all the best parts ofsomething and none of the strike
right, like it's none of thework.
It's, you know, of course, likethat's an appealing option, you
know.
But in the same way it kind ofties to this too.
You know, like I could talkabout rare disease period.
I mean, for the first fiveyears of rare, I never even said
(13:48):
I was a therapist because Inever wanted anyone to know or
think that like I like thatwasn't the role I wanted to hold
there and I got to do that.
You were the keeper ofinformation in this way.
So I think that it's likethat's a really deep thing there
.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
Yeah, there's.
No, there's no history there,crowds, what you're trying to
get across or what type ofsupport that you're looking for,
and so it's.
You know I don't think it'semotional baggage by any means,
but but it's.
There are different types ofways for us to get support, yeah
, and and where we feelcomfortable in the moment can
(14:24):
vary.
It's why you mentioned kind ofbeing comfortable in your car.
Now, there is some privacy thatthat afforded to you that has
now been translated into justthis is where I'm most
comfortable, where I candisclose what feels safe to me,
irrespective of who's in thehouse and who isn't.
So you've created anenvironment that's comfortable
for you and that may differdepending on the social setting,
(14:46):
the support you're getting forand topic right.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Like you know, I think different topics cause
like again, like different space.
You know, like I could talk toanybody about, like when I was,
when I'm sitting in a therapistseat doesn't matter where I am,
you know.
But I also know that, like, ifcertain clients see something
different, it will be like a 10to 20 minute conversation where
they're like going through thechecklist of what makes them
feel comfortable and of course Iallow them to.
(15:10):
I'm like, no, I'm just in adifferent house, I'm in a closed
, you know.
But again like that level of ofcomfort which I think ties back
into so this whole journeywhere, okay, you get off the
plane and now you're going backhome to.
You know how do you go back to?
You know, like, so this is inyour mind, but you have to go
back to work and life and kidsLike, so what happens next?
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Well, so I I have this flight just plants this
seed in my head of gosh.
I needed that.
And what was comfortable aboutme talking?
Kind of wondering how I went soquickly into talking with a
complete stranger aboutsomething that felt very
personal to me.
And a week after, I was in gradschool and we had class on the
(15:55):
weekends and this was one ofthose times where I was in
person and I see a classmate ofmine who's a Green Beret veteran
has an app that he wantsfeedback on and it was for a
military audience, but he justwanted people to try it out and
get feedback and it was avirtual reality app at the time
and I tried it and ittransported me to another place.
(16:19):
It was literally practicinglanguage in another country just
outside of DC, and I feltsomewhere else.
And that experience got methinking about space and about
digital space, and I had beendoing lots of Zoom calls for
work and I was just annoyed atjust how we took a camera and
(16:43):
slapped it on what would be anin-person interaction and called
it digital.
And so that kind of experience,which I think just happened to
be so close to me taking thisflight gelled the concept of.
We really haven't done muchwhen it comes to innovating
digital spaces, in particular toprompt a desired output.
(17:06):
We've created Zoom fatigue andwe've created anxiety at looking
at ourselves in our own imagewhen we're on these web calls.
We've had unintendedconsequences.
We haven't actually steppedback.
And how do we want people tofeel when they're in a digital
space?
And I started thinking aboutthe power of designing a digital
(17:28):
medium to not only make youfeel comfortable but to connect
you with those people who aren'tin your social network but are
on that same part of journey, soyou could get that form of
support, kind of recreating theflight experience.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Like I said, I guess I never realized how close these
two events were together,because I get like, change one
thing, change everything.
These two events were togetherbecause, again, like change one
thing, change everything.
And, um, you know, I think it'sreally crazy that, had it,
would have just been like one ofthose things where you're like,
oh wow, vr is a cool thing.
I'll, you know, I'll go to aTaylor Swift concert when they,
you know, as opposed to it beingin a certain sequence in which,
(18:04):
like I can give, like thatcould be where, like I don't
know, I feel like that's areally again, something that has
to be so vulnerable in order tostick with you long enough that
when the next piece falls intoplace, yeah, it really just felt
like it wasn't one singlemoment where it was a series of
events that happened to just gelthis concept in my head, but it
(18:27):
happened over the span of abouttwo and a half weeks.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
And then it became this concept of using a digital
space to create groups andmoderated support.
And it became this, this ideathat I couldn't shake.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
I was just going to say and then the entrepreneurial
bug like, cause, I've beenthere and where it's like you
cannot explain where you get thestrength, or to like, do both.
Where it's like you workingfull-time and then you're
building all night and but Iknow exactly what you're talking
about when you believe insomething so much where that,
like you can't stop until it'scoming.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Yeah it, I mean it was.
It was very much right time,right place for me.
Um, so that personal elementhappens.
I then have a classmate who hasme thinking about the medium,
but then the sheer process of mebeing in grad school had me
priming myself.
I built a level of confidencein my own abilities to not be
(19:21):
someone as a spectator, butactually you know, think about
the Roosevelt quote to be aperson in the arena actually
create something.
And and so I I don't think, hadI had this flight and had that
experience without the sametiming of going through that
grad school piece and andrealizing less about where do I
(19:42):
want to find a job and moreabout where do I want to where
do I want to look back 10 yearsfrom now and say I did this, I
helped create this.
It became much more about mywhy and it was just a function
of of timing for me.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
So okay.
So here's my next big question,and that has to do with cause.
I know when that bug hits right, like and if, and it becomes,
honestly, it feels a little bitlike an addiction.
You know, like when you knowsomething is just so good you
can't ignore it.
Maybe that's the new quote,david we're no longer going to
wait for other people.
Be so good, you can't ignoreyourself, but not gonna lie.
(20:18):
So like you're getting into aspace you've never been into,
right, like you're not aclinician.
You've had this I mean by yourown words essentially pushed off
your own mental health for ayear.
Um, and so I guess my, myquestion is like, when did that?
Um, the you?
(20:38):
You've built the thing rightCabana, Cabana exists right.
So you get to the top of thatmountain and then you're like,
oh wow, you know you can't bethe entrepreneur or the person
like that, that spark can't lastforever, kind of thing.
Like you know, it's got to bemaintained now.
Um, when did you, or like everthink like either like oh my god
, I built this, but like Ihaven't even done therapy, or oh
(20:59):
my god, I built this and I,like you know, I mean like some
sort of maybe imposter syndrome,or maybe it's, um you know, did
you ever circle back on yourown mental health or how did
that kind of shake after youkind of did the thing?
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Oh yeah, I think every entrepreneur I've met it
is a support group.
Every time you get more than oneentrepreneur talking to another
in a room because there's, bydefinition, you're doing
something that hasn't been donebefore.
Definition, you're doingsomething that hasn't been done
before, and so it comes with awhole host of doubts about.
(21:33):
You know, from the concept, theapproach, the knowing, the
balance between am I beingstubborn versus being passionate
, versus being wrong, uh and?
And also just needing to listento people.
And so there is, there's a veryhumbling experience that goes
into, at least for me, where youhave this idea and you have
(21:58):
versions of self humility andguidance from others, the better
off you are at addressing thoseself-doubts.
So, case in point, I'm not amental health professional.
(22:22):
I don't play one on TV.
I don't pretend to be one.
I'm just someone that has beenon the business side of
healthcare and seen frustrationsabout the fact that we don't
have enough providers.
We have a payment system thatin some cases doesn't pay enough
to those providers and we havea whole swath of people 50 plus,
depending on the state thatnever seek support.
(22:44):
So, like we, we have afunctional problem in the system
.
That I am confident I know wellenough.
But I also am confident thatthere are a lot of clinical
experts out there that can helpus.
So it becomes more aboutunderstanding your role and
where do you go and find theright expertise to help.
So what role do I play?
What role do others play?
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Well, I mean, I remember very, remember very, I
mean in my interview, likecrystal clear, remember it.
Um, when you said to me that,essentially, like, this isn't a
sustainable system, and goingback to the beginning of the
episode, I told you 96 clients,I was, I I felt so seen by that
one sentence of like you couldbe doing great work, but like
(23:27):
you, you can't.
Like it's not, you isn't,you're not the problem.
You know it's like this is notmade to work.
And it was the first time I'veever in the profession, ever
been empowered to blow the boxup.
Essentially, you know, becausein school and the way we
practice and insurance, like youknow it's, we talked about this
a lot.
You know it's the never endingthe, the never ending hamster
(23:47):
wheel, um, and there's notenough professionals.
And that was when, for me, whenI was like you know, cause it is
scary as a professional beinglike, um, the only clinician in
the room or being like, oh, no,we're going to go into corporate
, you know it's, first of all,society tells us how to, you
know, like, creates these likeum things where it's like, oh,
you know there's a people who gointo this, and because they
(24:09):
care and the people who go tobusiness because of this.
And so I know for me it wasinstantaneous where I'm like
again what I felt, like again atherapeutic moment where you
were just like allowed me to be,like, yes, like there's so many
other ways we could helpsupport.
And you know, I mean very earlyon, even when we were creating.
(24:31):
I mean then it was the balanceeight, but you know now what is
now known as the balance self.
You know you had said to me youwere just like forget the
textbook, like you know, andagain, we, we go by the DSM, the
this, the that, and it has beensuch a refreshing thing to be
able to work here.
And essentially, where I thinkthis like you're when you say
(24:52):
you surround yourself withpeople that like have the
expertise where I feel we'vegone head to head people.
If you're wondering, we go headto head often, david and I, in
a very healthy way.
But you know he's not afraid tochallenge old school thinking
or challenge any of it, and I'mnot afraid to be like, hey, we
need more clinical voice in this.
But I think that's what also isso beautiful about one.
(25:13):
You can confidently say thatthat's like truly combating
imposter syndrome.
That's an action right,surrounding yourself with people
that you trust, to do that withsomething that you hold so
close to you, like through thoseactions.
You know, I think that again,like innovation is like what I
think of when I think of Kabaddi.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
You know, even in a world where you know we have so
many mental health apps, yeahWell, you know I also will say I
get in this role, I get achance to talk to a number of
clinical professionals in this,and every time I go into a
clinical professionalconversation I know I'm not a
clinician but I also know I'vespent the past seven years
(25:56):
reading a ton of literatureabout what we are doing in the
therapy community, in the mentalhealth community in general,
across the behavioral spectrum,and to hear clinicians give
feedback about how what we'redoing fits into their clinical
models, fills, a gap, finds,needs.
I mean those conversations arewhat increase my confidence
(26:17):
level in the direction we'regoing and the need for support.
So I'm not standing here sayingwe're blowing up the model in
the conventional sense, Like atherapist is out of a job.
No, I'm.
I'm saying this in the sensethat we've got an incredible
product in one-to-one therapythat is in a storefront and
we've blacked out the windows.
We've made the door reallydifficult to find and also
(26:40):
really expensive for you to gointo and, as a result, so many
people are walking past thatdoor and so that is great that
we have that solution there, butit is not meeting all the
current need and we've got to dosomething about it Well, and I
think we've always known this.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
But I think what COVID did was it because, like
right, the idea of if I wouldhave told my like baby, right
out of school self that like oneday I would be on the computer,
on the phone, doing this work,I'd be like okay, and you know,
um, there's life on my I don'tknow like something silly,
because it's just unthinkable.
And I think COVID, I think whatis really unique about Cabana
(27:18):
is, again, I don't, I've alwaysloved that you've never tried to
replace this.
You know what I mean.
Like there's no replacement,there's a spot for everyone.
I believe that you know it's acontinuum.
But what I think has always beenreally well done is that, um,
we don't have to do it just oneway, um, and that's what I think
(27:41):
is like limited in theprofession, you know.
So COVID happens, and this,what it highlighted for me was
okay, even you take away thebarrier right of, like physical
location, which is a big enoughbarrier, and now you know what
you again, not that they'resuper affordable, they're more
affordable through these things,and you have now you're even
lowering the standards becausewe're licensed across, like
(28:03):
there were so many things thatopened up with COVID, with the
big you know talk spaces and allthat, and it was still a huge
problem, like you know.
There were still so manyunderserved.
And that was a feeling when Iwas doing scrolling on LinkedIn
when I saw this.
It was like a lifeline to beinglike again something that seems
so simple now, two yearsworking with you, but at the
(28:25):
time it was more like, oh, thiscould even be again.
Easy apply is great because youknow you didn't spend much time
on the application.
When you're like, okay, I don'teven know, these people are
probably bots, because you knowit seems too good to be true.
But again, I think just to yourpoint about two pieces having
to come together at the righttime.
I think COVID amplified that.
How many barriers there areoutside of the barriers that we
(28:49):
were we originally knew?
And then, um, again without youcoming and almost again blowing
that box open for me, um, itdoesn't happen.
You know what I mean.
Like I walked past that doortoo, like as a therapist, and I
go next door, never talk to you,and continue just the cycle of
seeing clients and trying to doas much good as I can.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
I think we're the only ones recognizing this.
You're seeing this happenalready right now, where there
are different opportunities forindividuals to find support.
I do feel much of theinnovation that's happening
(29:32):
right now is just trying to fixthe door, or maybe the window
dressing on that one-to-onetherapy model, if you will, but
isn't addressing the fact thatthere just aren't enough people
to go around and also that forsome individuals, particularly a
lower income population,therapy is an elective.
(29:56):
It's an elective procedure.
If you are choosing betweenwhere to spend $165, which is
the average outpatient copay forsomeone that's out of network
and an expectation may not justbe one conversation but could in
fact be multiple conversationto build that relationship,
you're staring at a potentiallya thousand dollar cashflow
expense for someone that may beliving paycheck to paycheck.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
And even the insured, though right Like with EAPs.
They're a great solution, butunfortunately I can't tell you
how many times I'm begging EAPsto give me mind you, we're
talking two more sessionsbecause there's no asking for
infinite or mental healthmaintenance.
There's none of that.
You know I'm begging, I amfighting and, letter after
letter, for two sessions to beapproved.
You know, or enough so that Icould, like feel like I'm
(30:38):
handing someone off with, Idon't know, some confidence that
I've done no harm.
Or you know, it's not in themiddle, because how much do you
really get done in six sessions?
I mean, let's be real.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
Yeah, it is.
It is tough.
So you know.
The point here is that is onemodel that we have been trying
to use to apply to everyoneacross the spectrum, and if
we're willing to pay for it andif the funds are there and we
can make it work, great.
But it's an expensive model andit is not going to be something
(31:08):
that we can scale.
We haven't demonstrated thatwe're able to scale that to meet
all the needs.
We just haven't.
Even for COVID, we haven't.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
That's what I'm saying.
Covid was our best shot of evenaccepting that's what I felt.
The 96 case loads when I toldyou I'm like, yeah, and again we
get people to pay that fee bysaying 24-hour therapist, you
know, and all those things.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
And so I'd love to know kind of you've been in this
now for Cabana's been around.
I think May 5th is, so for us,cinco de Mayo is actually
Cabanaversary, for when welaunched Cabana, we've, as a
company, have been around justaround four years getting our
starts within the Air Force, butCabana the work we've been
doing for those groups startedCinco de Mayo.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
I see how much I've learned as, just like a person,
professionally, what, where are?
What era are you?
You know like where, where doyou see now it going?
And you know, with the also thefact that now we're in a post
COVID world and that has changed.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
but that a lot has changed because of that too.
Yeah, so we've been workingwith health systems hospital
employers for going on threeyears now.
If you think about individualsthat work in a hospital setting,
it crosses, there's so manyroles in a 24-7 operation that
runs.
That actually workingsupporting every employee across
(32:44):
a hospital system has been agood test case for us at
supporting the generaldemographic across the US,
across really any employer, andthe model we've built we feel
applies completely based off thedata that we've seen in the
outcome.
So for us, this is about how dowe take a model makes mental
health care support way moreaffordable, significantly more
(33:07):
accessible?
We're talking drop-in support.
How do we just make thatavailable to a larger population
?
So for us, it's about expandingour reach.
No-transcript.
(33:50):
So you want to have a spacethat feels comfortable for you,
and many people attend therapysessions not at home, not in
their bedrooms, but in the car,because there might be a loved
one that you don't want tooverhear or just to risk it.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
So even if you're not talking about them, right, like
that's a, it's the craziestthing.
But, to your point, where doyou feel safe?
And I think it's really nice tolike you know a lot of what we
do is talking about you know,like um, finding your cabana,
like mentally, so that no matterwhere you are right, like you
can get to a safe space, becauselocation and visualization, we
know, is so big in order to stopthat fight or flight, big or
(34:31):
small.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
Yeah.
So when I think aboutaccessibility, there are many
ways that we can make somethingfeel more accessible to someone,
and that is always as you thinkabout the design of the
experience.
It's great if you have effective16 week long program, but if
it's not designed to meet theperson where they are in their
(34:53):
real life, then it is sitting ona shelf being dusted off if you
can convince someone.
So we're very much focused onhow do we take the science and
the body of knowledge of what weknow works for individuals from
a clinical perspective and justadapt it so that it meets real
life challenges.
From where do you feelcomfortable getting support, the
physical space itself, to howdo you like to engage, to how
(35:16):
much time do you actually have?
Now, if I have a 60 minuterequirement but you only have
five, let's find a five minuteoption that helps you in that
busy moment, those three minuteoptions.
So the piece that we're focusedon is there are common barriers
.
There's the convenience ofstuff.
There's the privacy that I needto feel, the trust I need to
feel from who's delivering that,and then there's also just this
(35:38):
I want to be able to havecontrol over how I do something,
the self-reliance on it, and soeverything we're building maps
to some of those barriers thatkeep you from getting support.
Speaker 4 (35:49):
Well, here looks like a good place to stop.
This episode was too good toonly be one, so join us Thursday
as we continue the conversationwith David Until.
Then, mind your health.
Seriously, you're fine.
You're fine because you havethe power to access your place
of peace anytime you need it.
However, if you get stuck,we're right at the palm of your
hand to help check out our shownotes for this week's source
(36:12):
list, recommended content andcabana live group schedule.
We'll catch you next week for abrand new episode of you're
always fine.
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