May 2, 2024 • 22 mins
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Embark on a profound exploration of the mind with David Black of Cabana and myself, Kristine, your guide through the intricacies of mental health. In our latest exchange, we confront the challenge of folding mental health practices into the fabric of daily life, dismantling the myth that well-being is a destination rather than a continuous path. Discover why traditional healthcare often stumbles in providing ongoing support and how we can leverage convenient tools to keep our mental wellness in check amidst the hustle of modern existence. Listen to us dissect the complex relationship between clinical best practices and the societal hunger for rapid relief, and learn strategies to incorporate lasting therapeutic progress into your own life.
Cabana Pods offers a therapeutic experience through immersive reality, focusing on emotional resilience. Research shows that immersive technologies tailored to one’s needs can immediately positively change well-being, mood, stress relief, and mindfulness.
Learn more about Cabana pods at https://www.yourcabana.com/pod
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome back to You're Always Fine a space to
show up for yourself and embracethe mess that lives underneath.
Because, let's be real, it'sexhausting always being fine.
So grab your headphones andallow yourself to listen, laugh
and even cry, Because you arenot alone.
And we aren't always fine, andthat's okay.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
We are back for part two of my interview with David
Black, founder and CEO ofKabatim, a mental health app
that is shaking up the way weview and access mental health
support.
I'm your host, christine, andif you haven't listened to part
one, I highly recommend you hitpause here and go listen to that
episode.
Trust me, it's worth it.
If you're all caught up, thenlet's dive right back in.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
I'm going to go on my little clinical high horse here
.
I talk about this a lot andthat is mental health is not a
destination, point blank period,even in just right, just by way
of you, being able to push offgrief for a year shows you that
it's not a destination.
And another thing I don'tbelieve the traditional system
does well is creating what ismental health maintenance?
(01:13):
Right, we have 16 week crisis,we have illness management, et
cetera, but we have no.
How do you check in when youdon't have right?
I barely can find an hour andI'm a therapist and I know that
you know, shoot most somemornings.
I am so mad at myself because Ithink that whatever I have to do
for work is more important thanthe five minutes I spend
(01:34):
journaling.
You know so, we know how hardit is.
So how do we help and fosterthis idea of like mental?
It's an everyday, it's amaintenance, it's you know like
what.
And it's going to lookdifferent for everyone.
You know, after I get done withsome, you know my COVID
caseload right now.
Interestingly, it's coming tothe point where I'm seeing most
(01:55):
of them either monthly orbimonthly for their, you know,
and we're communicating inbetween a little bit.
But again, as a therapist, itwould be great if I had a more
formalized way to manage thatmaintenance.
That's something I've adoptedin my practice and, honestly, if
I didn't have this opportunity,I couldn't do that, because I
(02:17):
need those spots to make mypaycheck.
So I get why the professionhasn't molded to that, but it's,
you know, something we talkabout.
So I'd just like to know your,like your thoughts of that.
Mental health maintenance.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
Corey Keyes is a researcher out of Emory
university who has been doing alot of work on the mental health
continuum, this model that nowcatches individuals sooner, and
he has a TED talk where hestates we park ambulances at the
bottoms of cliffs and that isour healthcare model.
We are really good when someonefalls off at grabbing them,
(02:56):
fixing them and repairing them.
We're not good at stopping thembefore they go off the cliff.
And so why do we not stoppeople?
Are we not designed to stop?
Some of it is the paymentmodels focus on episodic and so
we're improving in that withvalue-based care and initiatives
there, but some of it is alsojust the convenience.
(03:18):
Are we designed to meet peoplewhere they are?
Are you building something tocatch that person when they have
a few minutes in their commute,when they're in the car to work
on themselves?
Are you giving someone anentertaining option when they're
looking for a distraction, whenthey're doom scrolling, but
they don't want to feel the doomof it, but they need something
(03:38):
that entertains them?
Are we designing solutions tocatch people at the moment where
they're ready to engage?
Because our our competitors forour time and our investment are
our netflix it's.
You know, maladaptiveactivities.
It's, it's drinking.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
I mean it's also right, it's a lot of
self-indulgence as opposed tolike right and being like well,
I deserve it because you know Iwork so hard it's and you know I
mean we're seeing.
Also, I don't know if you'veseen the numbers around revenge,
sleep time, procrastination,where it's like you grind all
day long and then you stay upuntil basically four o'clock in
the morning, which we all knowis not good for anything Because
(04:17):
again, there was no taking arest or a five minute.
You know again, and it's alsoabout intentionality, right, I
feel like poop when I get 15minutes late to my therapy
session because I was held up indoing therapy for someone right
, as opposed to creating stuffthat I have five minutes and
this will be five minutes, notlike I'm going to stop and then
(04:39):
I'm going to feel guilty becauseI didn't invest in my like.
You know what I mean.
There's subtle messages thathappen when we create that
structure because I didn'tinvest in my.
You know what I mean.
There's subtle messages thathappen when we create that
structure.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
Yeah, the Amazon and other consumer-focused companies
that have made it possible forus to get most anything
delivered to our doorstep.
There is a common conventionalthinking that the experiences
you spend the most time withinfluence and set your
(05:07):
expectation for what you expectall other services or all other
experiences to be dictatedaround, and convenience trumps
all at this stage right now forus as a society.
So the expectation that I needsomething that is quick and
convenient for me, despite theclinical benefits of that longer
period of time in the best we.
(05:29):
this is a a balance that themental health industry is going
to have to grapple with, uh,where the the therapist knows
that six session, that eightsession is going to have some
value for you, but theindividual is looking for the
quick fix because they can getthat Well right, exactly, social
media, or like.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
I mean, I remember when the first time you
approached me and you're like,okay, I love everything you did
with the balance.
Now I need you to make it into22nd.
I'm like, I look, I was likehe's kidding, right, like
there's gotta be a joke whereyou think, um, again.
Another, though, barrier I putup for myself, because I think
we put out amazing content forin very short clips of it.
(06:10):
You know, our moments are someof my favorite things to make,
but it requires, of course, likeme, to think about, okay, if
you don't have the luxury of thelong way, what you know, what
are the key gems?
I mean that's I think it's whatyou actually said to me.
You're like, you know I want theaha moments and I was like I
can't just manifest aha moments,but you can.
(06:31):
You know, like you know you canput yourself in enough.
You know I've been doing it for15 years.
It's just a matter of again,stop siloing every client as a
different, you know, and startlike, okay, what are my themes?
Like, what are the aha momentsof?
You know this?
Like you know, as close as youcan get.
Of course, every experience isunique, but again, I think it's
(06:52):
the difference between thatshared connection, a pile of
things, as opposed to stuffblowing it off.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
Yeah, I mean, there's so much that can be learned
from just raising someone'sself-awareness.
That can be learned from justraising someone's self-awareness
If we look at the low hangingfor all of us from a mental
health perspective, it'simproving our awareness of the
biases that influence ourthinking, our logical side, as
(07:21):
well as the labels that definehow we're feeling or how we're
communicating.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
I couldn't agree more with the statement.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
I say to my clients all the time.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
David, that's exactly what I say.
They're like okay, I'm aware ofit, now what?
And in my head I'm like, oh,now it's on you, right, you have
a series of decisions and stuffto make, because you can't
unsee these things, but gettingit from your subconscious up.
To me, that's actually wherethe bulk of the work is.
So I could not agree with youmore.
But does it have to be thatdeep, dark, subconscious work to
get there?
(07:49):
Yeah, when you're on the edgeof a cliff maybe, but if we
start a little sooner in babysteps, maybe not.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
If we start a little sooner, then good can be done.
And so if we're trying toreally reach people earlier,
then we have to realize thatthey're not thinking.
Someone is not thinking wheredo I go to find a therapist?
I'm looking for a therapist.
That's not the problemsomeone's trying to solve.
They're trying to spend time ina way that's helpful for them,
that gives them maybe a breakwhen they have that time helps
(08:24):
take away something that iscausing them time or stress.
It's not adding to theirexperience.
And you cannot reach peopleearlier in our busy lives
without acknowledging thatyou're competing with something
that has nothing to do withmental health in general for
their time.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
But you make such a great point when you just said
that because you know whenyou're like they're not looking.
Point, when you just said thatbecause you know when you're
like they're not looking.
100%.
No, but I'll take, you know, atext I got from the other day,
from a client you know sheessentially was just like I have
to bring up with my, like myboyfriend.
He's caused me too much anxiety, right, she has anxious
attachment style and so going onTikTok and and happen to scan
(09:07):
on something that makes you feelseen, because it's like you
know you're not a bad girlfriendbecause you don't let your
boyfriend go out, it's youranxious, it's like you know what
I mean.
Like something like that makesyou feel seen, it takes the pain
point away and then, like yousaid, it alleviates.
Um, and that's what we'recompeting in.
So I right, it's, it's it'skind of circling back to that
(09:29):
plane ride.
We're competing for connectionand again what I think what
people hate their therapist orlove their therapist and it, and
it's one thing, how theyconnect with them.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
Yep Groups.
I'm a big believer in groupsand the power of group-based
support because so much that yousee when individuals who've
gone through group therapy,whether it's psychotherapy or
just support in general.
But if you look at Yalom's workaround this, there's research
on why people really like groupsand one of the biggest reasons
(10:04):
that people get I think 65reasons is the ability to
discover and accept somethingabout yourself that you didn't
previously know.
And what helps that discoveryis getting to see an insight
that someone else has gainedthat you can connect with and
realize that's actually a mirrorimage of myself.
(10:26):
And then the acceptance part isyou've now seen that you're not
the only one feeling that wayand the go through that journey
is so powerful.
And the reality ishyper-convenient life and
everything that we design onhyper-convenience makes it tough
to get to those moments ofclarity so quickly.
And that is, I won't say, thefun challenge, but that is the
(10:49):
necessary challenge for us tosolve Is you know, we cannot
stop this world of consumerconvenience.
We can design within it, andthat's something important.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
What you just said.
I always talk about how thefirst year in grad school like
it saved my life because again,I was going through I didn't
even know I was going through astruggle.
Honestly, hyper-perfection,like there's so many ways mental
health shows up and stuff, solike I didn't even you know, at
the time I wouldn't have beenlike, oh you're like.
Now it's like, oh wow, you wereso unwell.
But I remember my teacher wasteaching about enmeshment in my
(11:24):
family structure class and shewas not talking to me, she was
not doing therapy, we werelearning like straight up
learning therapy and she said itand the discussion that was
happening again third party toit was it was a group setting
but it allowed me to think of myproblem or like what was
happening in my life, without itbeing so threatening because we
weren't talking about me, wewere talking in a group.
(11:46):
You know they kind of just alight bulb just went off for me,
um, and our work.
You know about how that's oneof the huge powers I don't think
it's talked about enough isthat you can almost like
watching a movie in a way listento somebody's story, connect,
do all this mental math in yourhead around it to help you see
(12:07):
what you couldn't see before.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Yeah, well, just think of how you felt the
emotional power that you getfrom a movie or, specifically, a
Taylor Swift song.
When you think of music andjust the emotive powers that
come from the arts.
It's the validation we get froman artist who knew what was in
(12:30):
our head when they came up withthe lyrics for that song, or a
creator and they wrote astoryline that we can all see
ourselves in.
There is healing power in thevalidation that we get all see
ourselves in there.
There is healing power in inthe validation that we get
through those experiences and inthe outlets we get from that.
Um, and it's, I think, goingback to kind of the spaces
(12:51):
you've heard of individuals thatcry more often on planes than
anywhere else.
And and why is that?
You know what?
Why do people feel the emotionsof certain experiences that
they have?
And I think there's somethingpowerful there when we look at
the experiences that we fit intoour lives, where we feel
comfortable, where we feelgreater levels of
(13:14):
self-disclosure or Seen right,because where do we feel seen
Seen?
right, because where do we feelseen?
No-transcript.
(13:41):
So it's a long task list forthe next few years.
What greater way to spend yourtime, though, professionally or
personally?
Speaker 3 (13:52):
I mean I couldn't agree more I say I get all the
best aspects.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
Yeah Mantra this year upgrade your problems.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
So let's solve problems and then earn the right
to solve some more.
I love that.
Before I let you go, though, Iwant to quickly just, we were
talking about imposter syndromeand I know for me, when I came
to the tech side I had a.
I was like I do not belong inthis seat, like I'm one little
lonely therapist who you know.
Again, I've been given so manywonderful tools to go in and
kind of build that confidenceand now I feel like my seat is
well justified, but, um, they'realways hearing from me and how
(14:26):
I would kind of what my takehome tool would be.
So, sitting from your seat,when you know in all your
different ladders, how do youwhat's your advice for imposter
syndrome or your like quick toolto how you, you know, breathe
and go into another meeting,when you know like the odds are
stacked against you or maybeyou're not, you don't feel like
(14:46):
you have space in that room.
Speaker 4 (14:49):
Yeah, I, I think so.
There are two things that I dothat have been helpful.
One's more recent, but thefirst is it is lonely in this
world where you're anentrepreneur and trying to
navigate challenges, and sofinding others that can validate
(15:12):
your thinking, your doubts andthose pieces I find helpful,
just to know I'm not the onlyone thinking about that.
So, just raising myself,whereas that I'm, I'm waking
myself up, I'm in my own headabout something, the way I do
that is I listened to a ton ofof podcasts, in particular, uh,
podcast for entrepreneurs any,any story of someone that's had
(15:33):
to do a hard thing or had to gothrough adversity, even if
they're not an entrepreneur I'minterested in and I've found a
lot from the how I built this,because it's people that have
done great things who are stilljust people, and I have to
remind myself about that.
If you're passionate about aproblem and you are humble about
what you can do in that andwhat you can't do, then you can
(15:58):
find others that are just aspassionate, that fill in those
gaps.
So for me, it's learning howothers have gone through
experiences, and when I have adoubt about myself in a role, I
listen to a leader that's beenthrough a challenge before.
If I have a doubt about am Isolving something as a, not
(16:20):
being a clinician, I just wantto get smart enough to know if
I'm asking the right question.
So there's that piece of justtrying to listen from others
that helps me, um, in thatthere's also this piece that I
didn't realize it was reallyconnected to him imposter
syndrome, but it's the it's kindof never pausing to acknowledge
what you've accomplished orthings that have been powerful
(16:43):
for you.
It's sort of just writing it offLike we're not, not good enough
or not not there yet.
And, um, this is something thatI I don't know that I see it as
imposter syndrome, but I thinkI do hear too many of us doing
it and I'm guilty of it see itas imposter syndrome, but I
think I do hear too many of usdoing it and I'm guilty of it.
And it's if someone gives you acompliment and it could be even
(17:05):
if I, you know, I like yourshoes, you know, or something
like that.
It is this pattern of saying,oh, these old things like
they're just, you know,hand-me-downs, and when the
reality is that sets in motion,when the reality is that sets in
motion this imposter syndrome,this self-doubt of I'm not good,
you nailed it.
(17:27):
So I've started and I'm workingon this, but if someone gives me
a compliment and I don't wantto sound obnoxious in this I
don't think anyone does, but butI acknowledge them.
I say thank you, that commentmade my day.
You know that I hadn't heardsomething does, but I
acknowledge them.
I say thank you, that commentmade my day.
You know that I hadn't heardsomething like that before, or I
really.
You just made me smile and Iappreciate you for saying that.
You know just.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
It sets a different cycle.
Speaker 4 (17:49):
It does.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
Yeah, I mean those habits and they are your wins
right, like they are your like,even if all you got was to this
point.
There was a ton of trailblazingthere, so you know what, like
it is not you right.
I think that's part of the feeton the floor, head in the sky,
heart in the middle type ofthing where it's like you can
say like yeah, this was a, thiswas a huge win.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
I hope that's not the last one I get Right
(18:38):
no-transcript, but it isimportant for you to stop and
acknowledge the person next toyou, saying what an amazing view
.
Right now, and all too often,if you're just so focused and
saying we're not done there yet,that's not good and I think
(18:59):
more just tactically, if youdon't train yourself to
appreciate those little moments,it has a ripple effect in it
and, like you said, I think,presence too right, like it's
the difference between letting acycle start of negative
self-talk and imposter and doubt, or being present enough to be
like somebody noticed.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
You know and it's funny that you said that,
because I often think this aboutthe podcast, you know, and
every once in a while you'lldrop in and be like hey, I
listened to this episode and youknow you're like, yeah, your
boss listened or whatever.
But then you'll pull out a lineor something and I'm like man,
like you know again, like, and Ido, I feel this overwhelming
amount of gratitude that youjust stop for a second because
(19:39):
you don't know what I deal withbehind the mic and just like, as
a CEO, I can empathize, right,but you know those, those are
our own battles to kind of climb.
And again, I think, with allthe work we're doing by opening
that little door or findinganother door in, you know,
that's those small baby steps ofcatching someone before the
(19:59):
cliff.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
Yeah, it is the iceberg analogy, like we we'd
only see what someone wants usto see, what they're going
through.
We all deal with so much moreout of the surface, and it's I.
I know how busy we get, howhard it is, so I'm always
(20:21):
interested in little things thatI can remember to do.
Now we can call it atomichabits, but what are those
little steps that will havepositive or negative
implications, cause I'm going tokeep doing them.
So what are the little changesthat we can make?
I love that If you're not doingit positively.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
it's positively.
It's either neutral, which tome stagnancy is like the word,
or you're actively workingagainst yourself.
I love that You're right,because either way it's going to
be something.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
If someone gives you a compliment accept it.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
I love that one.
I'm going to have to make thatinto a moment or something to
get on the app.
Well, let's see how well hedoes.
Guys, I will say, david, thankyou so much for being here and
again, thank you on behalf ofthe entire.
Obviously I'm sure everyone'sgot their own David in their
story, but my whole career waschanged by you breaking me out
of my box.
(21:10):
Whatever happens next, I can'tgo back into that box and the
one word I think, what I thinkof you, heather and Cabana, is
innovation, and I don't knowthat word was ever on like a
word that I value, the way Ivalue it now and how much I've
watched myself as a person,professional and as a small
business owner, just byintroducing like that word is
(21:33):
very, in my opinion, powerful.
It gives you a lot of control.
So, you know, thank you for youknow, choosing the harder path
or choosing, you know, a way todo something.
It's not easy to be the personthat's going to do something
differently, and I see that andvalue that.
So you know, thank you.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
Well, you just made me blush.
Thank you, I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
We'll be back next week with a brand new episode of
You're Always Fine.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Until then, mind your health.
Seriously, you're fine.
You're fine because you havethe power to access your place
of peace anytime you need it.
However, if you get stuck,we're right at the palm of your
hand to help.
Check out our show notes forthis week's source list,
recommended content and Cabanalive group schedule.
We'll catch you next week for abrand new episode of You're
(22:24):
Always Fine.
Welcome back to You're Always Fine a space to
show up for yourself and embracethe mess that lives underneath.
Because, let's be real, it'sexhausting always being fine.
So grab your headphones andallow yourself to listen, laugh
and even cry, Because you arenot alone.
And we aren't always fine, andthat's okay.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
We are back for part two of my interview with David
Black, founder and CEO ofKabatim, a mental health app
that is shaking up the way weview and access mental health
support.
I'm your host, christine, andif you haven't listened to part
one, I highly recommend you hitpause here and go listen to that
episode.
Trust me, it's worth it.
If you're all caught up, thenlet's dive right back in.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
I'm going to go on my little clinical high horse here
.
I talk about this a lot andthat is mental health is not a
destination, point blank period,even in just right, just by way
of you, being able to push offgrief for a year shows you that
it's not a destination.
And another thing I don'tbelieve the traditional system
does well is creating what ismental health maintenance?
(01:13):
Right, we have 16 week crisis,we have illness management, et
cetera, but we have no.
How do you check in when youdon't have right?
I barely can find an hour andI'm a therapist and I know that
you know, shoot most somemornings.
I am so mad at myself because Ithink that whatever I have to do
for work is more important thanthe five minutes I spend
(01:34):
journaling.
You know so, we know how hardit is.
So how do we help and fosterthis idea of like mental?
It's an everyday, it's amaintenance, it's you know like
what.
And it's going to lookdifferent for everyone.
You know, after I get done withsome, you know my COVID
caseload right now.
Interestingly, it's coming tothe point where I'm seeing most
(01:55):
of them either monthly orbimonthly for their, you know,
and we're communicating inbetween a little bit.
But again, as a therapist, itwould be great if I had a more
formalized way to manage thatmaintenance.
That's something I've adoptedin my practice and, honestly, if
I didn't have this opportunity,I couldn't do that, because I
(02:17):
need those spots to make mypaycheck.
So I get why the professionhasn't molded to that, but it's,
you know, something we talkabout.
So I'd just like to know your,like your thoughts of that.
Mental health maintenance.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
Corey Keyes is a researcher out of Emory
university who has been doing alot of work on the mental health
continuum, this model that nowcatches individuals sooner, and
he has a TED talk where hestates we park ambulances at the
bottoms of cliffs and that isour healthcare model.
We are really good when someonefalls off at grabbing them,
(02:56):
fixing them and repairing them.
We're not good at stopping thembefore they go off the cliff.
And so why do we not stoppeople?
Are we not designed to stop?
Some of it is the paymentmodels focus on episodic and so
we're improving in that withvalue-based care and initiatives
there, but some of it is alsojust the convenience.
(03:18):
Are we designed to meet peoplewhere they are?
Are you building something tocatch that person when they have
a few minutes in their commute,when they're in the car to work
on themselves?
Are you giving someone anentertaining option when they're
looking for a distraction, whenthey're doom scrolling, but
they don't want to feel the doomof it, but they need something
(03:38):
that entertains them?
Are we designing solutions tocatch people at the moment where
they're ready to engage?
Because our our competitors forour time and our investment are
our netflix it's.
You know, maladaptiveactivities.
It's, it's drinking.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
I mean it's also right, it's a lot of
self-indulgence as opposed tolike right and being like well,
I deserve it because you know Iwork so hard it's and you know I
mean we're seeing.
Also, I don't know if you'veseen the numbers around revenge,
sleep time, procrastination,where it's like you grind all
day long and then you stay upuntil basically four o'clock in
the morning, which we all knowis not good for anything Because
(04:17):
again, there was no taking arest or a five minute.
You know again, and it's alsoabout intentionality, right, I
feel like poop when I get 15minutes late to my therapy
session because I was held up indoing therapy for someone right
, as opposed to creating stuffthat I have five minutes and
this will be five minutes, notlike I'm going to stop and then
(04:39):
I'm going to feel guilty becauseI didn't invest in my like.
You know what I mean.
There's subtle messages thathappen when we create that
structure because I didn'tinvest in my.
You know what I mean.
There's subtle messages thathappen when we create that
structure.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
Yeah, the Amazon and other consumer-focused companies
that have made it possible forus to get most anything
delivered to our doorstep.
There is a common conventionalthinking that the experiences
you spend the most time withinfluence and set your
(05:07):
expectation for what you expectall other services or all other
experiences to be dictatedaround, and convenience trumps
all at this stage right now forus as a society.
So the expectation that I needsomething that is quick and
convenient for me, despite theclinical benefits of that longer
period of time in the best we.
(05:29):
this is a a balance that themental health industry is going
to have to grapple with, uh,where the the therapist knows
that six session, that eightsession is going to have some
value for you, but theindividual is looking for the
quick fix because they can getthat Well right, exactly, social
media, or like.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
I mean, I remember when the first time you
approached me and you're like,okay, I love everything you did
with the balance.
Now I need you to make it into22nd.
I'm like, I look, I was likehe's kidding, right, like
there's gotta be a joke whereyou think, um, again.
Another, though, barrier I putup for myself, because I think
we put out amazing content forin very short clips of it.
(06:10):
You know, our moments are someof my favorite things to make,
but it requires, of course, likeme, to think about, okay, if
you don't have the luxury of thelong way, what you know, what
are the key gems?
I mean that's I think it's whatyou actually said to me.
You're like, you know I want theaha moments and I was like I
can't just manifest aha moments,but you can.
(06:31):
You know, like you know you canput yourself in enough.
You know I've been doing it for15 years.
It's just a matter of again,stop siloing every client as a
different, you know, and startlike, okay, what are my themes?
Like, what are the aha momentsof?
You know this?
Like you know, as close as youcan get.
Of course, every experience isunique, but again, I think it's
(06:52):
the difference between thatshared connection, a pile of
things, as opposed to stuffblowing it off.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
Yeah, I mean, there's so much that can be learned
from just raising someone'sself-awareness.
That can be learned from justraising someone's self-awareness
If we look at the low hangingfor all of us from a mental
health perspective, it'simproving our awareness of the
biases that influence ourthinking, our logical side, as
(07:21):
well as the labels that definehow we're feeling or how we're
communicating.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
I couldn't agree more with the statement.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
I say to my clients all the time.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
David, that's exactly what I say.
They're like okay, I'm aware ofit, now what?
And in my head I'm like, oh,now it's on you, right, you have
a series of decisions and stuffto make, because you can't
unsee these things, but gettingit from your subconscious up.
To me, that's actually wherethe bulk of the work is.
So I could not agree with youmore.
But does it have to be thatdeep, dark, subconscious work to
get there?
(07:49):
Yeah, when you're on the edgeof a cliff maybe, but if we
start a little sooner in babysteps, maybe not.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
If we start a little sooner, then good can be done.
And so if we're trying toreally reach people earlier,
then we have to realize thatthey're not thinking.
Someone is not thinking wheredo I go to find a therapist?
I'm looking for a therapist.
That's not the problemsomeone's trying to solve.
They're trying to spend time ina way that's helpful for them,
that gives them maybe a breakwhen they have that time helps
(08:24):
take away something that iscausing them time or stress.
It's not adding to theirexperience.
And you cannot reach peopleearlier in our busy lives
without acknowledging thatyou're competing with something
that has nothing to do withmental health in general for
their time.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
But you make such a great point when you just said
that because you know whenyou're like they're not looking.
Point, when you just said thatbecause you know when you're
like they're not looking.
100%.
No, but I'll take, you know, atext I got from the other day,
from a client you know sheessentially was just like I have
to bring up with my, like myboyfriend.
He's caused me too much anxiety, right, she has anxious
attachment style and so going onTikTok and and happen to scan
(09:07):
on something that makes you feelseen, because it's like you
know you're not a bad girlfriendbecause you don't let your
boyfriend go out, it's youranxious, it's like you know what
I mean.
Like something like that makesyou feel seen, it takes the pain
point away and then, like yousaid, it alleviates.
Um, and that's what we'recompeting in.
So I right, it's, it's it'skind of circling back to that
(09:29):
plane ride.
We're competing for connectionand again what I think what
people hate their therapist orlove their therapist and it, and
it's one thing, how theyconnect with them.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
Yep Groups.
I'm a big believer in groupsand the power of group-based
support because so much that yousee when individuals who've
gone through group therapy,whether it's psychotherapy or
just support in general.
But if you look at Yalom's workaround this, there's research
on why people really like groupsand one of the biggest reasons
(10:04):
that people get I think 65reasons is the ability to
discover and accept somethingabout yourself that you didn't
previously know.
And what helps that discoveryis getting to see an insight
that someone else has gainedthat you can connect with and
realize that's actually a mirrorimage of myself.
(10:26):
And then the acceptance part isyou've now seen that you're not
the only one feeling that wayand the go through that journey
is so powerful.
And the reality ishyper-convenient life and
everything that we design onhyper-convenience makes it tough
to get to those moments ofclarity so quickly.
And that is, I won't say, thefun challenge, but that is the
(10:49):
necessary challenge for us tosolve Is you know, we cannot
stop this world of consumerconvenience.
We can design within it, andthat's something important.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
What you just said.
I always talk about how thefirst year in grad school like
it saved my life because again,I was going through I didn't
even know I was going through astruggle.
Honestly, hyper-perfection,like there's so many ways mental
health shows up and stuff, solike I didn't even you know, at
the time I wouldn't have beenlike, oh you're like.
Now it's like, oh wow, you wereso unwell.
But I remember my teacher wasteaching about enmeshment in my
(11:24):
family structure class and shewas not talking to me, she was
not doing therapy, we werelearning like straight up
learning therapy and she said itand the discussion that was
happening again third party toit was it was a group setting
but it allowed me to think of myproblem or like what was
happening in my life, without itbeing so threatening because we
weren't talking about me, wewere talking in a group.
(11:46):
You know they kind of just alight bulb just went off for me,
um, and our work.
You know about how that's oneof the huge powers I don't think
it's talked about enough isthat you can almost like
watching a movie in a way listento somebody's story, connect,
do all this mental math in yourhead around it to help you see
(12:07):
what you couldn't see before.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Yeah, well, just think of how you felt the
emotional power that you getfrom a movie or, specifically, a
Taylor Swift song.
When you think of music andjust the emotive powers that
come from the arts.
It's the validation we get froman artist who knew what was in
(12:30):
our head when they came up withthe lyrics for that song, or a
creator and they wrote astoryline that we can all see
ourselves in.
There is healing power in thevalidation that we get all see
ourselves in there.
There is healing power in inthe validation that we get
through those experiences and inthe outlets we get from that.
Um, and it's, I think, goingback to kind of the spaces
(12:51):
you've heard of individuals thatcry more often on planes than
anywhere else.
And and why is that?
You know what?
Why do people feel the emotionsof certain experiences that
they have?
And I think there's somethingpowerful there when we look at
the experiences that we fit intoour lives, where we feel
comfortable, where we feelgreater levels of
(13:14):
self-disclosure or Seen right,because where do we feel seen
Seen?
right, because where do we feelseen?
No-transcript.
(13:41):
So it's a long task list forthe next few years.
What greater way to spend yourtime, though, professionally or
personally?
Speaker 3 (13:52):
I mean I couldn't agree more I say I get all the
best aspects.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
Yeah Mantra this year upgrade your problems.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
So let's solve problems and then earn the right
to solve some more.
I love that.
Before I let you go, though, Iwant to quickly just, we were
talking about imposter syndromeand I know for me, when I came
to the tech side I had a.
I was like I do not belong inthis seat, like I'm one little
lonely therapist who you know.
Again, I've been given so manywonderful tools to go in and
kind of build that confidenceand now I feel like my seat is
well justified, but, um, they'realways hearing from me and how
(14:26):
I would kind of what my takehome tool would be.
So, sitting from your seat,when you know in all your
different ladders, how do youwhat's your advice for imposter
syndrome or your like quick toolto how you, you know, breathe
and go into another meeting,when you know like the odds are
stacked against you or maybeyou're not, you don't feel like
(14:46):
you have space in that room.
Speaker 4 (14:49):
Yeah, I, I think so.
There are two things that I dothat have been helpful.
One's more recent, but thefirst is it is lonely in this
world where you're anentrepreneur and trying to
navigate challenges, and sofinding others that can validate
(15:12):
your thinking, your doubts andthose pieces I find helpful,
just to know I'm not the onlyone thinking about that.
So, just raising myself,whereas that I'm, I'm waking
myself up, I'm in my own headabout something, the way I do
that is I listened to a ton ofof podcasts, in particular, uh,
podcast for entrepreneurs any,any story of someone that's had
(15:33):
to do a hard thing or had to gothrough adversity, even if
they're not an entrepreneur I'minterested in and I've found a
lot from the how I built this,because it's people that have
done great things who are stilljust people, and I have to
remind myself about that.
If you're passionate about aproblem and you are humble about
what you can do in that andwhat you can't do, then you can
(15:58):
find others that are just aspassionate, that fill in those
gaps.
So for me, it's learning howothers have gone through
experiences, and when I have adoubt about myself in a role, I
listen to a leader that's beenthrough a challenge before.
If I have a doubt about am Isolving something as a, not
(16:20):
being a clinician, I just wantto get smart enough to know if
I'm asking the right question.
So there's that piece of justtrying to listen from others
that helps me, um, in thatthere's also this piece that I
didn't realize it was reallyconnected to him imposter
syndrome, but it's the it's kindof never pausing to acknowledge
what you've accomplished orthings that have been powerful
(16:43):
for you.
It's sort of just writing it offLike we're not, not good enough
or not not there yet.
And, um, this is something thatI I don't know that I see it as
imposter syndrome, but I thinkI do hear too many of us doing
it and I'm guilty of it see itas imposter syndrome, but I
think I do hear too many of usdoing it and I'm guilty of it.
And it's if someone gives you acompliment and it could be even
(17:05):
if I, you know, I like yourshoes, you know, or something
like that.
It is this pattern of saying,oh, these old things like
they're just, you know,hand-me-downs, and when the
reality is that sets in motion,when the reality is that sets in
motion this imposter syndrome,this self-doubt of I'm not good,
you nailed it.
(17:27):
So I've started and I'm workingon this, but if someone gives me
a compliment and I don't wantto sound obnoxious in this I
don't think anyone does, but butI acknowledge them.
I say thank you, that commentmade my day.
You know that I hadn't heardsomething does, but I
acknowledge them.
I say thank you, that commentmade my day.
You know that I hadn't heardsomething like that before, or I
really.
You just made me smile and Iappreciate you for saying that.
You know just.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
It sets a different cycle.
Speaker 4 (17:49):
It does.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
Yeah, I mean those habits and they are your wins
right, like they are your like,even if all you got was to this
point.
There was a ton of trailblazingthere, so you know what, like
it is not you right.
I think that's part of the feeton the floor, head in the sky,
heart in the middle type ofthing where it's like you can
say like yeah, this was a, thiswas a huge win.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
I hope that's not the last one I get Right
(18:38):
no-transcript, but it isimportant for you to stop and
acknowledge the person next toyou, saying what an amazing view
.
Right now, and all too often,if you're just so focused and
saying we're not done there yet,that's not good and I think
(18:59):
more just tactically, if youdon't train yourself to
appreciate those little moments,it has a ripple effect in it
and, like you said, I think,presence too right, like it's
the difference between letting acycle start of negative
self-talk and imposter and doubt, or being present enough to be
like somebody noticed.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
You know and it's funny that you said that,
because I often think this aboutthe podcast, you know, and
every once in a while you'lldrop in and be like hey, I
listened to this episode and youknow you're like, yeah, your
boss listened or whatever.
But then you'll pull out a lineor something and I'm like man,
like you know again, like, and Ido, I feel this overwhelming
amount of gratitude that youjust stop for a second because
(19:39):
you don't know what I deal withbehind the mic and just like, as
a CEO, I can empathize, right,but you know those, those are
our own battles to kind of climb.
And again, I think, with allthe work we're doing by opening
that little door or findinganother door in, you know,
that's those small baby steps ofcatching someone before the
(19:59):
cliff.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
Yeah, it is the iceberg analogy, like we we'd
only see what someone wants usto see, what they're going
through.
We all deal with so much moreout of the surface, and it's I.
I know how busy we get, howhard it is, so I'm always
(20:21):
interested in little things thatI can remember to do.
Now we can call it atomichabits, but what are those
little steps that will havepositive or negative
implications, cause I'm going tokeep doing them.
So what are the little changesthat we can make?
I love that If you're not doingit positively.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
it's positively.
It's either neutral, which tome stagnancy is like the word,
or you're actively workingagainst yourself.
I love that You're right,because either way it's going to
be something.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
If someone gives you a compliment accept it.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
I love that one.
I'm going to have to make thatinto a moment or something to
get on the app.
Well, let's see how well hedoes.
Guys, I will say, david, thankyou so much for being here and
again, thank you on behalf ofthe entire.
Obviously I'm sure everyone'sgot their own David in their
story, but my whole career waschanged by you breaking me out
of my box.
(21:10):
Whatever happens next, I can'tgo back into that box and the
one word I think, what I thinkof you, heather and Cabana, is
innovation, and I don't knowthat word was ever on like a
word that I value, the way Ivalue it now and how much I've
watched myself as a person,professional and as a small
business owner, just byintroducing like that word is
(21:33):
very, in my opinion, powerful.
It gives you a lot of control.
So, you know, thank you for youknow, choosing the harder path
or choosing, you know, a way todo something.
It's not easy to be the personthat's going to do something
differently, and I see that andvalue that.
So you know, thank you.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
Well, you just made me blush.
Thank you, I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
We'll be back next week with a brand new episode of
You're Always Fine.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Until then, mind your health.
Seriously, you're fine.
You're fine because you havethe power to access your place
of peace anytime you need it.
However, if you get stuck,we're right at the palm of your
hand to help.
Check out our show notes forthis week's source list,
recommended content and Cabanalive group schedule.
We'll catch you next week for abrand new episode of You're
(22:24):
Always Fine.
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