May 14, 2024 • 20 mins
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When Heather Townsend swapped the world of e-discovery for the frontlines of mental health advocacy, she didn't just change careers—she embarked on a mission. This episode features Heather, the co-founder of Cabana, as she unveils her compelling narrative, from grappling with depression in her youth to using her battles as a catalyst for change. Her academic journey through psychology and neuroscience wasn't just about self-discovery; it was a stepping stone towards making mental health support more approachable and available to all. As Heather reflects on the hurdles she faced in finding therapy and the role purpose played in her life, you'll be inspired by how she transformed her struggles into a beacon of hope for others.
We then shift the lens to the broader picture, dissecting the nuances of mental health discussions in our professional and personal lives. Heather and I unpack the vital need for open conversations and the powerful impact leadership can have in fostering a culture where psychological safety is paramount. Through my own admission of past depressive episodes, we underscore the profound influence these experiences have on management styles and the critical importance of transparency. Concluding with a heartfelt message of encouragement, this episode is an affirmation for those who've felt the weight of mental health challenges, emphasizing that seeking help is not just brave, but necessary for healing and growth.
Cabana Pods offers a therapeutic experience through immersive reality, focusing on emotional resilience. Research shows that immersive technologies tailored to one’s needs can immediately positively change well-being, mood, stress relief, and mindfulness.
Learn more about Cabana pods at https://www.yourcabana.com/pod
Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Tik Tok, or LinkedIn. Click here to check out Cabana.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome back to You're Always Fine a space to
show up for yourself and embracethe mess that lives underneath.
Because, let's be real, it'sexhausting always being fine.
So grab your headphones andallow yourself to listen, laugh
and even cry, because you arenot alone.
And we aren't always fine, andthat's okay.
And we aren't always fine, andthat's okay.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
I truly believe that our personal struggles and
experiences are the mostpowerful motivators for us to
take action, which is exactlywhy our guest today is someone I
am truly inspired by.
It is a pleasure to introducemy guest host for the day, who
happens to also be my boss,mentor and friend, heather
Townsend.
Heather Townsend, theco-founder of Cabana, has taken
her life experience and uses itas fuel to make changes needed
in the mental health field.
(00:53):
Welcome to the show, heather,thanks.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Christine, I'm excited for our conversation
today.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Deep in.
Could you share with ourlisteners a little bit about?
Speaker 3 (00:59):
yourself.
Sure, I'm the COO andco-founder at Cabana.
(01:27):
Prior to co-founding Cabana in2020, I spent most of my
professional career ine-discovery.
It's a little-known field inthe legal tech industry,
dedicated to the process ofobtaining and exch field
relative to mental health, but Iheld a lot of roles there
before starting my own companyin e-discovery, where I was
consulting law firms on theire-discovery and tech strategies,
so I really enjoyed usingtechnology to drive efficiencies
in the legal field.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
All right.
So the obvious question here ishow did you go from that
industry and like over here tolike mental health, Like what
drew you to mental health?
Most people try to stay awayfrom it.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Yeah, I know it's quite the jump to go to from
e-discovery to mental health.
But back when I was a teenagerand probably a bit younger, if
I'm being honest I struggledwith depression.
So eventually, during thatjourney, I felt like I hit rock
bottom of a depressive episodeand I went to my mom and told
her that I needed help.
And I was 17 at the time and Iwas pretty certain that if I
(02:13):
didn't get professional help Iwas probably going to kill
myself.
So I never told anyone that noteven my therapist that I was
suicidal because I didn't knowif I'd get locked up or
something or what would happen.
And I felt like I was a normalperson just struggling and
didn't want to be treated anydifferently.
So that started my journey withtherapy and a lot of
(02:34):
medications that I was on.
So from there I decided Iwanted to understand what was
wrong with me.
So I studied psychology at theUniversity of Vermont.
I went on to do neuroscienceresearch, kind of like, on this
path of wanting to understand mydepression and how to, I guess,
(02:55):
treat it in some way outside ofthe therapy and medications I
was prescribed.
And so this was back in 2010and no one seemed to care about
mental health.
A lot of my friends and familyweren't really supportive or
seemed like they couldn'tunderstand what I was going
through, so it felt reallyisolating and alone.
So, finally, fast forward toApril in 2020 and people started
(03:17):
to care about mental health andtalk about it more freely, and
that was COVID.
So I kind of jumped on theopportunity to become part of
the solution for the globalmental health crisis that was
starting or I guess it wasalways there but came, I think,
a little more to the forefrontof the conversation.
So I kind of I left eDiscoveryto co-found Cabana, and that's
(03:38):
dedicated to helping peopleimprove their mental health.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
That's a lot to experience at like such a young
age.
I think that to be so aware ofthat it's like something is
happening with me, but also beaware that I'm just a person
struggling.
I don't want to be treated likea subset or something's wrong
with me.
How did that impact?
I guess you?
You growing up and you know,coming into adulthood.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
I think that for me, you know, I felt like it was
something that I would alwayshave, forever potentially.
I didn't think that there was acure for it, which was made it
a little bit more difficult forme to handle or think that like
I'm going to be this way forever, which I don't think is the
case anymore.
But I think growing up that waskind of the mentality I had.
(04:27):
And you know, purpose issomething that's really
important to me and as I'vegotten older, part of me wanted
to make the depression Iexperienced mean something, so
that I wasn't the suffering andthe struggling wasn't for
nothing.
So I felt like working inmental health was a way to put
meaning behind that what Iexperienced in starting Cabana.
So I don't know, like honestly,if that makes me better at my
(04:50):
job as a COO at Cabana, but Ican at least come from the
experience side of things ofunderstanding the difficulties
(05:11):
of having insurance, pay fortherapy or medication, switching
therapists, the cost with thatand that lived experience I
think is really valuable.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
I feel like access is something we talk a lot about
and I know that that's like abig thing for us, like as a
company is like talk around,like making sure there's access.
Did you feel like there was alack of access where you grew up
, or did you were able to getservices pretty easily?
Speaker 3 (05:36):
I definitely think there was a lack of access, like
I didn't know anyone that wentto therapy.
When I think back to highschool, I don't even know how I
had the awareness that I neededto go to therapy.
So I don't, like, you know,google, the internet was, was
there, obviously, but we, Ithink we just, you know like it
was just the thing, yeah.
Yeah so and so I don't know, I'mnot sure where that like.
(05:57):
I even had that idea, maybebecause I knew.
Obviously I knew of therapy,Maybe I've probably saw in a
movie or something, to be honest.
So I think access was hard.
I was from like a poor ruraltown area so while other kids
were like I guess in othercommunities were like taking
Adderall and going to doctorsand prescribe that no one I knew
(06:20):
was like was prescribedanything like that or ever seen
a mental health professional.
So I think where I was wasparticularly isolating, but I
did.
I was able to find a therapistthat was somewhat, you know,
nearby where I was.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
So there's also a ton of research that has like come
out recently about the stronglink between, like depression
and perfectionism, and is thatsomething you experience I mean
you're building something fromthe ground up which feels also
like there's like a lot ofexpectation, like especially if
you've like experienced whatyou're trying to solve for that
feels like it could be a lot.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
Yeah, I mean, I don't know much about the research
around perfectionism, but I'vecalled myself a recovering
perfectionist, so I do think itcould be related and you know, I
haven't honestly looked closelyso high that it can probably
lead to feeling depressed, right, feeling not worthy enough,
right, yeah, like.
So I think that I definitelythink that's like probably
(07:15):
related when I was I think itwas fourth grade and I got a 99
(07:45):
on a test and I crieduncontrollably because I wasn't
100.
So this was deep-rooted and itwas like even 99 wasn't good
enough, it had to be perfect.
So I definitely know that Ihave tendencies toward
perfectionism, but I don't holdother people to those standards
thankfully, because I would be aterrible, tolerable manager if
I did, or just a person to bearound or in a relationship with
.
But I know for myselfpersonally I have like that high
(08:07):
standard.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Well, most of the time, right, Like we tend to
treat people or like outwardlymuch more kindly than we are to
ourselves.
Ok, so let's let's focus alittle bit on cabana now,
because I'm curious, like if youwere that 17-year-old girl
again and in high school andthere was a Cabana, do you think
that would have been helpful,having something like Cabana?
Speaker 3 (08:41):
I think a lot of it is the timing, like the
conversation on mental healthjust wasn't had for 15 years ago
, like you know.
So I think that there's atiming thing that people have to
be ready for that conversation.
So as a society, and so I dothink that having that would
have been helpful, becausetherapy can be intimidating,
(09:03):
right, it's expensive insuranceat least as far as all the
different insurance cures I'vehad never have covered it, or at
least therapists I've seen innetwork.
So we're in network, and so Ithink having like an affordable
resource or something that justlike maybe a little less
intimidating than therapy woulddefinitely be helpful.
So, yeah, I think having likean affordable resource or
something that just like maybe alittle less intimidating than
therapy would definitely behelpful.
(09:23):
So, yeah, I think that wouldthat definitely would have
helped.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
How do you think we continue the conversation Right?
Because, like I think, for asfar as we've come, it's still a
conversation that a lot of usstruggle with, to share with our
employers.
I mean, I think it's a littledifferent for us.
We work at a mental healthcompany, so it's like if you say
you need a med, like if youneed a day off, like for your
mental health, it's different.
But you know corporate Americaor you know um even like you
(09:50):
know some other types of jobs Ithink of, like retail right.
Like if you were like I can't,like my mental health is really
shit today, like I can't come in, I feel like that wouldn't be
really accepted.
It's like, how do you think wecontinue to break those barriers
down?
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Like at the corporate level, I think it starts with
the leaders, right, or an uppermanagement of organizations for
sure, like and that's whatresearch can you know I'm
calling like air quotes research, but that's what the trend is
is that if it's leaders are openabout it and upper management
(10:24):
and saying that it's okay anddemonstrating it themselves,
like if they say, sure, take amental health break, but never
talk about mental healththemselves, the rest of the
organization is going to be like, are they really serious about
that?
So it definitely starts withthe upper management taking the
first step to talk about theirmental health and I think that
starts to change the culture andmake it okay for others, like
(10:47):
creates that psychologicalsafety for others to then take
that mental health day once theysee the leadership doing that.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
I think that's something that you actually do a
really great job as a managerand like a COO, of doing like I
feel like you're very open andhonest, like how do you build up
, I guess right, like that's avery vulnerable thing.
I think, as a woman in tech, asa woman founder, like to be
able to, you know, quote unquoteI don't, I don't think it's a
weakness.
I think vulnerability is power.
(11:15):
But you know, how did you findthe strength to like, know that
that was the type of leader youwere going to be, or to make
that decision, to share, evenwhen you know it could make you
look?
Speaker 3 (11:27):
Yeah, that's a great question of where, like, my
vulnerability comes from.
I think I've always beensomewhat of an honest or blunt
person, for better or for worse.
I think there's times that itcan be a bad thing of being a
little too honest.
So I think some of it comesfrom just my tendency to speak
(11:47):
what's on my mind and notsugarcoat things and maybe you
can attest that I don't reallysugarcoat things, I do not
sugarcoat things.
So I think part of that is isthe honesty.
But if I didn't have that, maybe, trait and I still think people
can be honest and, when itcomes to their personal
(12:10):
struggles, try to come off acertain way and I think for me I
can relate back to mydepression that I had when I was
younger and I don't think I wasalways vulnerable about it.
I did hide it Like I did try tocover it up.
So I think part of it came withyou.
(12:31):
I didn't help anyone bycovering it up, you know, or
hiding it.
I didn't me not talking aboutit didn't make me feel better,
but it didn't doesn't helpanyone else feel better.
So I think at some point it was.
You know, if I want to make animpact in this industry, which I
(12:52):
do I have to be part of thesolution.
I have to start with talkingabout my story and I think when
we first started I didn't bringup my personal story like ever
it's been.
I've been talking about it forthe past four years.
That makes me more comfortableto even be here talking about it
.
Otherwise, if you said fouryears ago, it would have been
much harder for me and maybecome off a little different.
So I think part of it ispractice and, yeah, whether
(13:14):
that's writing about it, talkingto others about it, it just
comes with reps.
I think some of thevulnerability and you know, one
thing I think about is like ifyou're struggling alone, you
don't win any prizes forovercoming things alone.
Like that doesn't so true.
Yeah, you know, like that'slike you said, you can struggle
(13:34):
alone if you want to, if that'slike how you want to overcome it
, but you're not going to, likelife doesn't hand out any prize.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Like good job you did this all by yourself like yeah,
like you're, you guessed, youknow.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
So I think that's just something I think about and
I think just others shouldthink about when, like what,
like a reason to like, seek helpso this is obviously such a
different version of you thanyour 17 year old version.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
If you could go back, though, and tell 17 year old
version of Heather something,what would?
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Yeah, I think I would tell myself that you'll be okay
and that things will get better, and I would definitely tell
myself that you know you're morecapable than you think you are,
so don't doubt yourself.
I think when you're younger,you kind of like oh, I'm not an
adult, I don't know anything,and maybe you're treated that
way.
But I think that should be sofar from the truth, because as a
(14:27):
young age, we are quite capableand that self-doubt I think
that we have is what's holdingus back, yeah, yeah, and
perpetuates into adulthood Ahundred percent.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
I couldn't agree more .
It's like the messages we tellourselves whether it be because
we are young or whatever haveyou a hundred percent becomes a
narrative that we continue likeway into adulthood.
So what would you tell ourlisteners who may be struggling
to like start their mentalhealth journey, like how can one
(15:01):
cabana help with that and howcan you like take the first step
, like you did, at such a youngage, to like ask for help?
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Yeah, I mean, I think seeking help is not a sign of
weakness, it's a sign ofstrength.
As humans, we are like a socialspecies, so we're not meant to
do life alone and I think thisis an example.
So if you are struggling, it'sreaching out to friends, if
that's the appropriate mean.
But your friends aren'ttherapists generally, except you
(15:28):
, yeah, but in the context ofthis your friends aren't
therapists.
Sometimes they are, but likelynot.
So there are a lot of resourcesnow and I think you know, and
obviously Google is I don't wantto say Google definitely don't
WebMD your symptoms, but there's, you know, looking for
(15:49):
therapists.
There's a lot of resources outthere on the internet that you
can find, like Cabana right,we're offered to like through
employers and now somewhatoutside of employers, and I
think that's great way to getsupport, especially if you're
need something outside of justone-on-one therapy that's you
know, to supplement your currentmental health practice, um also
(16:12):
discovering other skills, umaround self-awareness, managing
your emotions so you know youcan connect with a coach on
there or a therapist or otherswho are experiencing the same
thing, which I think is great tohelp you feel like less alone
because you're.
You know there's definitelyother people out there feeling
the way you are you.
Just because we don't talkabout it enough that it seems
(16:34):
more isolating than it really is.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
I agree and I think also, sometimes it's not as easy
to talk to our friends andfamily who, like, have all the
contacts.
Sometimes it's like easier totalk to people who are just
going to talk about like thatone thing right, like the one
thing you're struggling with, asopposed to like I don't know,
like knowing the whole back.
Sometimes it's not great wheneveryone knows everything about
you.
It can feel limiting.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Yeah, yeah, I think yeah, there is definitely a
concept too of oversharing thatyou don't always want to be a
practice of.
There's a balance in who youcan share certain things with.
I'm sure in high school it'smuch different who you share
things with.
It can be maybe dangerous,right, but I think that's why I
tell myself you'll be okay, likehigh school is only high school
(17:18):
, it doesn't last like thatforever.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
It's not forever.
Sometimes you go back to middleschool as adults I feel like
with, like random things, I'mlike, oh my God, but that's just
poor human behavior.
Like with like random things,I'm like, oh my God, but that's
just poor human behavior.
Yes, heather, before we go eachweek, you know, I give our
listeners a little balance towant to take with them, and this
week I would love for you to dothe honors and give our
listeners maybe a tool that kindof you go to to ground yourself
(17:45):
or to stop the negative talkspiral that happens, or maybe a
little perfectionism tip sure um, I think for like what helps
with like perfectionism, um,really is learning a new
language.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
So that sounds like a lot, but there are like plenty
of free apps out there that makeit easy.
Like I use duolingo um topractice spanish, and so if
you're a perfectionist like me,it'll be a little nerve wracking
to get something wrong, butexposure to like being wrong is
exactly, I think, what you needand like failing sometimes.
(18:19):
So I definitely recommendlearning a new language because
it does have.
It has amazing benefits foryour brain too and long-term
impacts, even when you're anadult learning it.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Well, I love learning , but I am not a linguist, like
I've learned this about myself.
I, as you know, barely haveEnglish language down, so does
it have to be a language?
Or could you like learn code orsign language or something
that's like not going to alsotorture?
Speaker 3 (18:47):
you.
Yeah, learning a new hobby hasa lot of benefits for you, so it
doesn't have to be a language.
I I like the language learning.
It can help me also stopruminating and it's on my phone,
right, so that can make it easyand accessible.
Um, but for sure, if it'scoding is your thing, if it's
going to a new exercise, likedifferent type of exercise class
(19:07):
rock climbing is something Istarted picking up.
So definitely, learning newhobbies are a great way to
overcome perfectionism and, youknow, be okay with being bad at
something.
I think it's really helpful.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
I love that so much.
It makes me think that I shouldcontinue to do the fitness like
plus on Apple, like the fiveminute yoga.
I swear I feel like such a foolfor those entire five minutes,
but I'm going to keep doing itbecause I need to build some
strength against myperfectionism.
Go ahead, heather.
Thank you so much for takingthe time out of your day to come
and chat with us.
I think your vulnerability andability to share your story and
(19:44):
struggles is such a superpowerand one of the reasons Cabana
has seen the success and helpedas many as it has and makes you
such a good boss.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Thank you, christine, you're awesome.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Some days.
That's all for today.
Peeps, If you've enjoyed thisepisode, please go ahead, follow
the podcast and leave us areview.
Your support helps us tocontinue to normalize the
conversation around theinvisible struggles we all face.
Until next time, mind yourhealth.
Speaker 4 (20:14):
Seriously, you're fine.
You're fine because you havethe power to access your place
of peace anytime you need it.
However, if you get stuck,we're right at the palm of your
hand to help.
Check out our show notes forthis week's source list,
recommended content and Cabanalive group schedule.
We'll catch you next week for abrand new episode of You're
(20:34):
Always Fine.
Welcome back to You're Always Fine a space to
show up for yourself and embracethe mess that lives underneath.
Because, let's be real, it'sexhausting always being fine.
So grab your headphones andallow yourself to listen, laugh
and even cry, because you arenot alone.
And we aren't always fine, andthat's okay.
And we aren't always fine, andthat's okay.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
I truly believe that our personal struggles and
experiences are the mostpowerful motivators for us to
take action, which is exactlywhy our guest today is someone I
am truly inspired by.
It is a pleasure to introducemy guest host for the day, who
happens to also be my boss,mentor and friend, heather
Townsend.
Heather Townsend, theco-founder of Cabana, has taken
her life experience and uses itas fuel to make changes needed
in the mental health field.
(00:53):
Welcome to the show, heather,thanks.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Christine, I'm excited for our conversation
today.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Deep in.
Could you share with ourlisteners a little bit about?
Speaker 3 (00:59):
yourself.
Sure, I'm the COO andco-founder at Cabana.
(01:27):
Prior to co-founding Cabana in2020, I spent most of my
professional career ine-discovery.
It's a little-known field inthe legal tech industry,
dedicated to the process ofobtaining and exch field
relative to mental health, but Iheld a lot of roles there
before starting my own companyin e-discovery, where I was
consulting law firms on theire-discovery and tech strategies,
so I really enjoyed usingtechnology to drive efficiencies
in the legal field.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
All right.
So the obvious question here ishow did you go from that
industry and like over here tolike mental health, Like what
drew you to mental health?
Most people try to stay awayfrom it.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Yeah, I know it's quite the jump to go to from
e-discovery to mental health.
But back when I was a teenagerand probably a bit younger, if
I'm being honest I struggledwith depression.
So eventually, during thatjourney, I felt like I hit rock
bottom of a depressive episodeand I went to my mom and told
her that I needed help.
And I was 17 at the time and Iwas pretty certain that if I
(02:13):
didn't get professional help Iwas probably going to kill
myself.
So I never told anyone that noteven my therapist that I was
suicidal because I didn't knowif I'd get locked up or
something or what would happen.
And I felt like I was a normalperson just struggling and
didn't want to be treated anydifferently.
So that started my journey withtherapy and a lot of
(02:34):
medications that I was on.
So from there I decided Iwanted to understand what was
wrong with me.
So I studied psychology at theUniversity of Vermont.
I went on to do neuroscienceresearch, kind of like, on this
path of wanting to understand mydepression and how to, I guess,
(02:55):
treat it in some way outside ofthe therapy and medications I
was prescribed.
And so this was back in 2010and no one seemed to care about
mental health.
A lot of my friends and familyweren't really supportive or
seemed like they couldn'tunderstand what I was going
through, so it felt reallyisolating and alone.
So, finally, fast forward toApril in 2020 and people started
(03:17):
to care about mental health andtalk about it more freely, and
that was COVID.
So I kind of jumped on theopportunity to become part of
the solution for the globalmental health crisis that was
starting or I guess it wasalways there but came, I think,
a little more to the forefrontof the conversation.
So I kind of I left eDiscoveryto co-found Cabana, and that's
(03:38):
dedicated to helping peopleimprove their mental health.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
That's a lot to experience at like such a young
age.
I think that to be so aware ofthat it's like something is
happening with me, but also beaware that I'm just a person
struggling.
I don't want to be treated likea subset or something's wrong
with me.
How did that impact?
I guess you?
You growing up and you know,coming into adulthood.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
I think that for me, you know, I felt like it was
something that I would alwayshave, forever potentially.
I didn't think that there was acure for it, which was made it
a little bit more difficult forme to handle or think that like
I'm going to be this way forever, which I don't think is the
case anymore.
But I think growing up that waskind of the mentality I had.
(04:27):
And you know, purpose issomething that's really
important to me and as I'vegotten older, part of me wanted
to make the depression Iexperienced mean something, so
that I wasn't the suffering andthe struggling wasn't for
nothing.
So I felt like working inmental health was a way to put
meaning behind that what Iexperienced in starting Cabana.
So I don't know, like honestly,if that makes me better at my
(04:50):
job as a COO at Cabana, but Ican at least come from the
experience side of things ofunderstanding the difficulties
(05:11):
of having insurance, pay fortherapy or medication, switching
therapists, the cost with thatand that lived experience I
think is really valuable.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
I feel like access is something we talk a lot about
and I know that that's like abig thing for us, like as a
company is like talk around,like making sure there's access.
Did you feel like there was alack of access where you grew up
, or did you were able to getservices pretty easily?
Speaker 3 (05:36):
I definitely think there was a lack of access, like
I didn't know anyone that wentto therapy.
When I think back to highschool, I don't even know how I
had the awareness that I neededto go to therapy.
So I don't, like, you know,google, the internet was, was
there, obviously, but we, Ithink we just, you know like it
was just the thing, yeah.
Yeah so and so I don't know, I'mnot sure where that like.
(05:57):
I even had that idea, maybebecause I knew.
Obviously I knew of therapy,Maybe I've probably saw in a
movie or something, to be honest.
So I think access was hard.
I was from like a poor ruraltown area so while other kids
were like I guess in othercommunities were like taking
Adderall and going to doctorsand prescribe that no one I knew
(06:20):
was like was prescribedanything like that or ever seen
a mental health professional.
So I think where I was wasparticularly isolating, but I
did.
I was able to find a therapistthat was somewhat, you know,
nearby where I was.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
So there's also a ton of research that has like come
out recently about the stronglink between, like depression
and perfectionism, and is thatsomething you experience I mean
you're building something fromthe ground up which feels also
like there's like a lot ofexpectation, like especially if
you've like experienced whatyou're trying to solve for that
feels like it could be a lot.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
Yeah, I mean, I don't know much about the research
around perfectionism, but I'vecalled myself a recovering
perfectionist, so I do think itcould be related and you know, I
haven't honestly looked closelyso high that it can probably
lead to feeling depressed, right, feeling not worthy enough,
right, yeah, like.
So I think that I definitelythink that's like probably
(07:15):
related when I was I think itwas fourth grade and I got a 99
(07:45):
on a test and I crieduncontrollably because I wasn't
100.
So this was deep-rooted and itwas like even 99 wasn't good
enough, it had to be perfect.
So I definitely know that Ihave tendencies toward
perfectionism, but I don't holdother people to those standards
thankfully, because I would be aterrible, tolerable manager if
I did, or just a person to bearound or in a relationship with
.
But I know for myselfpersonally I have like that high
(08:07):
standard.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Well, most of the time, right, Like we tend to
treat people or like outwardlymuch more kindly than we are to
ourselves.
Ok, so let's let's focus alittle bit on cabana now,
because I'm curious, like if youwere that 17-year-old girl
again and in high school andthere was a Cabana, do you think
that would have been helpful,having something like Cabana?
Speaker 3 (08:41):
I think a lot of it is the timing, like the
conversation on mental healthjust wasn't had for 15 years ago
, like you know.
So I think that there's atiming thing that people have to
be ready for that conversation.
So as a society, and so I dothink that having that would
have been helpful, becausetherapy can be intimidating,
(09:03):
right, it's expensive insuranceat least as far as all the
different insurance cures I'vehad never have covered it, or at
least therapists I've seen innetwork.
So we're in network, and so Ithink having like an affordable
resource or something that justlike maybe a little less
intimidating than therapy woulddefinitely be helpful.
So, yeah, I think having likean affordable resource or
something that just like maybe alittle less intimidating than
therapy would definitely behelpful.
(09:23):
So, yeah, I think that wouldthat definitely would have
helped.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
How do you think we continue the conversation Right?
Because, like I think, for asfar as we've come, it's still a
conversation that a lot of usstruggle with, to share with our
employers.
I mean, I think it's a littledifferent for us.
We work at a mental healthcompany, so it's like if you say
you need a med, like if youneed a day off, like for your
mental health, it's different.
But you know corporate Americaor you know um even like you
(09:50):
know some other types of jobs Ithink of, like retail right.
Like if you were like I can't,like my mental health is really
shit today, like I can't come in, I feel like that wouldn't be
really accepted.
It's like, how do you think wecontinue to break those barriers
down?
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Like at the corporate level, I think it starts with
the leaders, right, or an uppermanagement of organizations for
sure, like and that's whatresearch can you know I'm
calling like air quotes research, but that's what the trend is
is that if it's leaders are openabout it and upper management
(10:24):
and saying that it's okay anddemonstrating it themselves,
like if they say, sure, take amental health break, but never
talk about mental healththemselves, the rest of the
organization is going to be like, are they really serious about
that?
So it definitely starts withthe upper management taking the
first step to talk about theirmental health and I think that
starts to change the culture andmake it okay for others, like
(10:47):
creates that psychologicalsafety for others to then take
that mental health day once theysee the leadership doing that.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
I think that's something that you actually do a
really great job as a managerand like a COO, of doing like I
feel like you're very open andhonest, like how do you build up
, I guess right, like that's avery vulnerable thing.
I think, as a woman in tech, asa woman founder, like to be
able to, you know, quote unquoteI don't, I don't think it's a
weakness.
I think vulnerability is power.
(11:15):
But you know, how did you findthe strength to like, know that
that was the type of leader youwere going to be, or to make
that decision, to share, evenwhen you know it could make you
look?
Speaker 3 (11:27):
Yeah, that's a great question of where, like, my
vulnerability comes from.
I think I've always beensomewhat of an honest or blunt
person, for better or for worse.
I think there's times that itcan be a bad thing of being a
little too honest.
So I think some of it comesfrom just my tendency to speak
(11:47):
what's on my mind and notsugarcoat things and maybe you
can attest that I don't reallysugarcoat things, I do not
sugarcoat things.
So I think part of that is isthe honesty.
But if I didn't have that, maybe, trait and I still think people
can be honest and, when itcomes to their personal
(12:10):
struggles, try to come off acertain way and I think for me I
can relate back to mydepression that I had when I was
younger and I don't think I wasalways vulnerable about it.
I did hide it Like I did try tocover it up.
So I think part of it came withyou.
(12:31):
I didn't help anyone bycovering it up, you know, or
hiding it.
I didn't me not talking aboutit didn't make me feel better,
but it didn't doesn't helpanyone else feel better.
So I think at some point it was.
You know, if I want to make animpact in this industry, which I
(12:52):
do I have to be part of thesolution.
I have to start with talkingabout my story and I think when
we first started I didn't bringup my personal story like ever
it's been.
I've been talking about it forthe past four years.
That makes me more comfortableto even be here talking about it
.
Otherwise, if you said fouryears ago, it would have been
much harder for me and maybecome off a little different.
So I think part of it ispractice and, yeah, whether
(13:14):
that's writing about it, talkingto others about it, it just
comes with reps.
I think some of thevulnerability and you know, one
thing I think about is like ifyou're struggling alone, you
don't win any prizes forovercoming things alone.
Like that doesn't so true.
Yeah, you know, like that'slike you said, you can struggle
(13:34):
alone if you want to, if that'slike how you want to overcome it
, but you're not going to, likelife doesn't hand out any prize.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Like good job you did this all by yourself like yeah,
like you're, you guessed, youknow.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
So I think that's just something I think about and
I think just others shouldthink about when, like what,
like a reason to like, seek helpso this is obviously such a
different version of you thanyour 17 year old version.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
If you could go back, though, and tell 17 year old
version of Heather something,what would?
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Yeah, I think I would tell myself that you'll be okay
and that things will get better, and I would definitely tell
myself that you know you're morecapable than you think you are,
so don't doubt yourself.
I think when you're younger,you kind of like oh, I'm not an
adult, I don't know anything,and maybe you're treated that
way.
But I think that should be sofar from the truth, because as a
(14:27):
young age, we are quite capableand that self-doubt I think
that we have is what's holdingus back, yeah, yeah, and
perpetuates into adulthood Ahundred percent.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
I couldn't agree more .
It's like the messages we tellourselves whether it be because
we are young or whatever haveyou a hundred percent becomes a
narrative that we continue likeway into adulthood.
So what would you tell ourlisteners who may be struggling
to like start their mentalhealth journey, like how can one
(15:01):
cabana help with that and howcan you like take the first step
, like you did, at such a youngage, to like ask for help?
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Yeah, I mean, I think seeking help is not a sign of
weakness, it's a sign ofstrength.
As humans, we are like a socialspecies, so we're not meant to
do life alone and I think thisis an example.
So if you are struggling, it'sreaching out to friends, if
that's the appropriate mean.
But your friends aren'ttherapists generally, except you
(15:28):
, yeah, but in the context ofthis your friends aren't
therapists.
Sometimes they are, but likelynot.
So there are a lot of resourcesnow and I think you know, and
obviously Google is I don't wantto say Google definitely don't
WebMD your symptoms, but there's, you know, looking for
(15:49):
therapists.
There's a lot of resources outthere on the internet that you
can find, like Cabana right,we're offered to like through
employers and now somewhatoutside of employers, and I
think that's great way to getsupport, especially if you're
need something outside of justone-on-one therapy that's you
know, to supplement your currentmental health practice, um also
(16:12):
discovering other skills, umaround self-awareness, managing
your emotions so you know youcan connect with a coach on
there or a therapist or otherswho are experiencing the same
thing, which I think is great tohelp you feel like less alone
because you're.
You know there's definitelyother people out there feeling
the way you are you.
Just because we don't talkabout it enough that it seems
(16:34):
more isolating than it really is.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
I agree and I think also, sometimes it's not as easy
to talk to our friends andfamily who, like, have all the
contacts.
Sometimes it's like easier totalk to people who are just
going to talk about like thatone thing right, like the one
thing you're struggling with, asopposed to like I don't know,
like knowing the whole back.
Sometimes it's not great wheneveryone knows everything about
you.
It can feel limiting.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Yeah, yeah, I think yeah, there is definitely a
concept too of oversharing thatyou don't always want to be a
practice of.
There's a balance in who youcan share certain things with.
I'm sure in high school it'smuch different who you share
things with.
It can be maybe dangerous,right, but I think that's why I
tell myself you'll be okay, likehigh school is only high school
(17:18):
, it doesn't last like thatforever.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
It's not forever.
Sometimes you go back to middleschool as adults I feel like
with, like random things, I'mlike, oh my God, but that's just
poor human behavior.
Like with like random things,I'm like, oh my God, but that's
just poor human behavior.
Yes, heather, before we go eachweek, you know, I give our
listeners a little balance towant to take with them, and this
week I would love for you to dothe honors and give our
listeners maybe a tool that kindof you go to to ground yourself
(17:45):
or to stop the negative talkspiral that happens, or maybe a
little perfectionism tip sure um, I think for like what helps
with like perfectionism, um,really is learning a new
language.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
So that sounds like a lot, but there are like plenty
of free apps out there that makeit easy.
Like I use duolingo um topractice spanish, and so if
you're a perfectionist like me,it'll be a little nerve wracking
to get something wrong, butexposure to like being wrong is
exactly, I think, what you needand like failing sometimes.
(18:19):
So I definitely recommendlearning a new language because
it does have.
It has amazing benefits foryour brain too and long-term
impacts, even when you're anadult learning it.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Well, I love learning , but I am not a linguist, like
I've learned this about myself.
I, as you know, barely haveEnglish language down, so does
it have to be a language?
Or could you like learn code orsign language or something
that's like not going to alsotorture?
Speaker 3 (18:47):
you.
Yeah, learning a new hobby hasa lot of benefits for you, so it
doesn't have to be a language.
I I like the language learning.
It can help me also stopruminating and it's on my phone,
right, so that can make it easyand accessible.
Um, but for sure, if it'scoding is your thing, if it's
going to a new exercise, likedifferent type of exercise class
(19:07):
rock climbing is something Istarted picking up.
So definitely, learning newhobbies are a great way to
overcome perfectionism and, youknow, be okay with being bad at
something.
I think it's really helpful.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
I love that so much.
It makes me think that I shouldcontinue to do the fitness like
plus on Apple, like the fiveminute yoga.
I swear I feel like such a foolfor those entire five minutes,
but I'm going to keep doing itbecause I need to build some
strength against myperfectionism.
Go ahead, heather.
Thank you so much for takingthe time out of your day to come
and chat with us.
I think your vulnerability andability to share your story and
(19:44):
struggles is such a superpowerand one of the reasons Cabana
has seen the success and helpedas many as it has and makes you
such a good boss.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Thank you, christine, you're awesome.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Some days.
That's all for today.
Peeps, If you've enjoyed thisepisode, please go ahead, follow
the podcast and leave us areview.
Your support helps us tocontinue to normalize the
conversation around theinvisible struggles we all face.
Until next time, mind yourhealth.
Speaker 4 (20:14):
Seriously, you're fine.
You're fine because you havethe power to access your place
of peace anytime you need it.
However, if you get stuck,we're right at the palm of your
hand to help.
Check out our show notes forthis week's source list,
recommended content and Cabanalive group schedule.
We'll catch you next week for abrand new episode of You're
(20:34):
Always Fine.
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