America's Funeral... I mean 4th of July YAAAAAAAY! | Zombie Book Club Ep 103 - Zombie Book Club

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Welcome to Zombie Book Club, the only book club
where the book is a funeral, andwe're all invited, everybody's
invited, and we're all invited,everybody's invited, we're all
invited to the funeral.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
Is it the President of the United States?

Speaker 1 (00:31):
Unfortunately.
No, damn it.
I'm Dan, and when I'm notwearing all black to the 4th of
July celebration event, I'mwriting a book about the death
of America and, honestly, Ithought this was speculative
when I started writing it.

Speaker 2 (00:43):
No, comment I'm Leah, speculative when I started
writing it.
No comment I'm Leah and today Ibought a 3D printed green
raccoon because I wanted to makea kid feel good in our
community.
I also got some free nativeplants, a Canada clear and a
evening primrose from our 4th ofJuly funeral.
I guess they didn't call itthat.
We're calling it that.

Speaker 1 (01:01):
It's pretty uniquely us calling it a funeral, but,
yeah, it's a celebration ofrevolutions, of freedom, really.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
so, free freedom and independence from tyranny just
go back and listen to theepisodes about negan and tyranny
for your thoughts on that.
Yeah, uh, today we're hosting afuneral for the united states.
Is america undead, dan?

Speaker 1 (01:25):
I wish do you know it's, uh, it's, it's dying and I
don't think it's gonna comeback.
I don't think it's beingresurrected in any form today we
are hosting, facilitating afuneral yeah, who?
Who is a person that hosts afuneral?

Speaker 2 (01:41):
well in one of my favorite teenage.
Uh, when I was a teenager, oneof my favorite series was called
ender's game and it's like awild sci-fi series by an
author's whose name I don'tremember right now because it's
been a long time, but anyways,there's a point where ender is
living on a planet where there'spig trees.
They're pigs and then they getuh dismembered at the end and

(02:02):
then they grow into trees, yeah,and there's this concept of the
speaker for the dead.
So that's what we're doingtoday.
I guess we're funeral directors.
We need to do some mourning, Ithink.

Speaker 1 (02:14):
Yeah, and some people might be confused as to why we
think America's dead, In whichcase I would say look at the
news.
We release episodes everySunday, so subscrue you.
Is what is written here.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
I know that I'm truly mourning, because nothing is
funny to me right now.
Normally I would laugh at thatbad joke and you know what.

Speaker 1 (02:38):
The fact that nothing is funny to you is hilarious to
me, and I don't know what thatsays.

Speaker 2 (02:43):
Well, that made me laugh too.

Speaker 1 (02:44):
I don't know what to think about.
It's dark humor.
I'm infecting you with it.
You have infected me with darkhumor.
Hey, leah, guess what?
What?
America's dead Yay.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
Isn't that what some other groups around the world
have been chanting for a longtime?
Is death to America, yeah, andthey won.
We're going around the world,have been chanting for a long
time is death to america.
They won.
I, I, I we're gonna have tounpack this, we're gonna get
there, folks.
Um, if you have not shut thisoff, congratulations.
Yes, this is not a normal zybaclub episode.

(03:18):
I, because things aren't normal.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
Yeah it's our fourth of july episode.

Speaker 2 (03:21):
Yeah, I should specify that yes, this is our
fourth of july episode, eventhough you're listening to this
on the 6th maybe.

Speaker 1 (03:27):
Or later, who knows?

Speaker 2 (03:28):
In the future.
This is 2025 for folks whodon't know, and before we get
into the funeral, we thought wecould dissociate again for a
moment, because we're reallygood at that and have some
groans from the horde.
Oh yeah, about the yeah, thegood things in our lives.
Yeah, let's hear some goodthings.
Um, we have a very kind messagefrom one of our zombesties, z
martin brown, author of thenon-essentials one and the

(03:49):
non-essentials two, who wasworking on, I believe, right now
, the non-essentials three,while also going to college.
Wow, um, and they sent us areally nice message for our
100th anniversary episode andthis is their follow-up to that.
I think they just listened tothe 100th episode right, I?

Speaker 1 (04:02):
I was gonna say I've.
I thought that that z martindid send us something pretty
great yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (04:08):
Um, I really feel like this is necessary to read
for everybody because it's aboutto get wild.
Oh you ready?
Oh okay.
Z says talking about the 100thepisode, I had no idea that my
preferred apocalypse food ofpeanut butter had such a
profound influence on you, dan,dan and other listeners.
I'm touched.
But maybe there's a market outthere.

(04:29):
That's so American of you, z.
Yes, how can we sell it?
He says peanut butter for theapocalypse.
Let's brainstorm.
Here's my spin on some namesfor a new afterlife nut butter,
peanut brains.
Okay, chunky chomp, I like that.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
One pb and slay that's pretty great too, this is
also a good one.

Speaker 2 (04:51):
Skippy the end apocalypso butter oh yeah um
this one has so many layers deadnut spread that sounds gross.
Zombienut, just with a capital.

Speaker 1 (05:06):
B.

Speaker 2 (05:06):
Just no Last lick on earth.

Speaker 1 (05:10):
I mean, you know what it's coming back around on me.
It feels like an aftertastekind of thing.

Speaker 2 (05:16):
Peanut Butcher, nut of the Living Dead.
That sounds potentially.

Speaker 1 (05:23):
X-rated.

Speaker 2 (05:24):
Yeah, that sounds like a movie, um, and then he
says your turn.
So, dan, can you beat any ofthis?
How?

Speaker 1 (05:30):
could I follow any of that?
All the best.

Speaker 2 (05:33):
No, I can't which one will we pick for our company
that we're going to start with z?
Oh boy, um skippy.

Speaker 1 (05:40):
The end is my favorite skippy the End is
pretty good.
Chunky Chomp also kind ofresonated with me, but I feel
like that is a type.
So if you have Skippy the End,you get Chunky Chomp or what
would Smooth be Dead Nut Spreador Peanut Butcher, because

(06:01):
they're fully butchered,pulverized.
It's got to tell you how smoothit is.

Speaker 2 (06:09):
Well then he says then you guys slap a badass ZBC
sticker on the jar and we'llcall it a fucking day.
Ha, yeah, I'm not not serious.
Z says.
I guess the question is, folksis, would you buy our Skippy?
The end.
Also, z, do you live in aclimate where you can grow the

(06:29):
peanuts?
Because I learned recently wecan't grow peanuts here, so this
is my other.
I guess, if neither of us cangrow peanuts, who's listening?
That wants to be the third inour little um, yeah,
incorporated is there a peanutfarmer in georgia that listens
to us?

Speaker 1 (06:45):
or south carolina maybe?

Speaker 2 (06:48):
maybe you might.

Speaker 1 (06:49):
We don't know who's listening half the time so get
on your tractor and farm us upsome nuts well, you know, maybe
this is like you know.

Speaker 2 (06:56):
There's all the survival.
It's peanuts.
Peanuts, a legume, yes, oh mygod.
Um, I have a hard time seeingthem.
The same as a lentil, but Iguess they are.
Yeah, anyhow, my point was isthat we could sell this as a
like life sustaining have tohave in your um apocalypse

(07:20):
preparedness bag, right?

Speaker 1 (07:22):
yeah, and you don't want to buy it from.
You know, like those, thegrocery store big guys, big, big
peanut, big nut, you don't wantto buy it from big nut.
They are they just.
They're just greedy for yourmoney and they add chemicals.
Oh, it has chemicals.
Nope, not ours.

Speaker 2 (07:45):
No chemicals food is made up of chemicals.
Nope, like unprocessed food isstill chemicals.
I hate to tell you this ours isdifferent then he says but on a
more serious note, school iskicking my ass, but I like it
when my ass gets kicked, okaywe're learning a lot about you
today.
See, I hope your girlfriendlikes that.

(08:06):
Um sorry, I couldn't helpmyself.
Book three of thenon-essentials is happening full
throttle and it's getting weirdfor max madison, like twin
peaks meets the twilight zone.

Speaker 1 (08:16):
Weird, you know that I'm loving it we've recently
watched some of the twin peaks,so this reference is resonating
it is.

Speaker 2 (08:25):
Yeah, I, I need to read that also.
It's 117 degrees here in thevalley of the sun.
Okay, that scratches the ideathat you're going to be growing
the peanuts yeah, there's nopeanuts coming from that so I'm
preparing my body for the real,very real likelihood of nuclear
war.
Bring it on.
You can't burn skin twice.
I think we don't go overnuclear war.
Follow in my biology classuntil year three.

(08:46):
That's too late.
Geez, not to be that guy.
What's with the world right now?
Right Between you, me and MarkZ, who's reading this while
taking a giant crap on his G5jet.
I'm terrified, and the only wayI can cope with this is by
baring my face in books, typingmy feelings in quotation marks
into a word processor andlistening to your freaking
podcast.
Anyway, I think peanut butterhas a strong future now, now it

(09:08):
does bad segue.
I know talking about pb calms mynerves.
It's like listening to enyawhile taking a bubble bath.
Scented candles are theresomewhere too?
Peanut butter scented can't.
Why can't I say scented?
I think I'm gonna sing scented.

Speaker 1 (09:21):
Yeah, peanut butter scented, we're gonna call up and
yeah, and anya is going to makeus an album that's about peanut
butter peanut butter scentedcandles pb and slay.
Perfect.
Now, uh, we get those scentedcandles and we maybe we make our

(09:43):
own brand of bubble bath andyou have yourself a peanut
butter bubble bath.

Speaker 2 (09:49):
Well then he goes on to say I'm glad to hear Dan
picked up the powdered PB shit.
That's the good stuff, is it?
I have an entire drawer fullmyself.
Hundred year shelf life.
Foods like powdered PB are nowthe essentials.
We're going to need it.
Yeah, the essentials, not thenon-essentials.
These are essential.
The ones with the oil, thosePBs are non-essentials.
Yeah, add your own oil.
Yeah, or water or whatever, butyou got to have the oil though.

(10:12):
I don't know what the shelflife of peanut butter actually
is Me neither but it did make methink that powdered PB could be
compressed into like a bathbomb.

Speaker 1 (10:27):
Yeah, bath bomb, yeah , okay, I don't know if we're
just going with, like, a bathproduct.
Yeah, no, you're right, itcould be.
Um and so, like you compressthe powdered peanut butter into
a bath bomb, drop it in yourbath, then what happens then?

Speaker 2 (10:36):
you drink it when you're done you.
Water is something that hasalways, always should be
respected, but especially in theapocalypse, you've got to
multi-purpose it what better wayto respect water than by
dumping a bunch of peanut butterinto?
It well.
No, you bathe in it and thenyou drink it.

Speaker 1 (10:50):
Yeah, I mean the peanut butter drinking your own
soap too.

Speaker 2 (10:55):
You know this is falling apart quickly.
Yeah, I will say, though itcould be very lovely under some
red light therapy, like maxmadison loves in book one of the
non-essentials.
Do you think you could haveaccess to red light therapy in,
uh, the apocalypse?
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (11:08):
I mean the sun has all the colors of light oh so
just lay in the sun.
Yeah, um also, you know whenthe nuclear bombs go off that
that's probably red probablyokay, back to back to z's
message.

Speaker 2 (11:22):
I'm lost, right.
So the last thing that he saidwas powdered PB are now the
essentials.
We're going to need it, butwhat we're going to need even
more is entertainment An hour orso a week where listeners can
get lost in the genius behindZBC man, you know how to make us
feel nice, no matter howfreaking nuts I saw that, z, I
see you.
No matter how freaking nuts itgets out there, you guys can't

(11:44):
stop.
No pressure, but the lives ofmany rest on your show, ha.
But seriously, thanks forkeeping us simpletons
entertained, thanks for keepingus informed and, above all,
thanks for supporting authors,creators and artists alike.
Cheers to 100 plus episodes.
You guys, freaking, rule theunderworld of entertainment and
soon our apocalyptic future.
Okay, back to studying.
Bye, yeah, z.

Speaker 1 (12:03):
Future okay, back to studying.
Bye, yeah z in in theapocalypse, everybody can come
to us for tips about how to makepeanut butter bath bombs that's
what we should do, like youknow where we're talking about
having our apocalypse prepparties.

Speaker 2 (12:14):
Yeah, we can teach everybody how to make peanut
butter bath bombs yeah, thenthat'll be a hit.

Speaker 1 (12:19):
And peanut butter scented candles you know, just
imagine you're like I'm gonnaget in, get in the bath and use,
use all this water that I haveto take a bath because when I
get out I want to be covered inpeanut butter what if it turns
out that peanut butter it likedeters zombies though?

Speaker 2 (12:38):
oh, it could, and maybe it's like a natural
sunscreen.

Speaker 1 (12:42):
It absolutely is.
If you cover yourself in peanutbutter, you're not getting a
sunburn.
I guarantee it Head to toepeanut butter.

Speaker 2 (12:49):
A lot of bugs would climb on you though, yes, and
the neighborhood dogs wouldabsolutely just destroy you.
God, I really needed that laughtoday.
Thank you, z.
It was very fun to read your uhunhinged message to us and
thanks for the no pressurerequirement to uh rule the

(13:10):
underworld of entertainment andour real apocalyptic future.
Are we the the kings and queensof the apocalyptic future, dan?

Speaker 1 (13:18):
I think so, um, and I think it's okay to say that,
because anyone who disagreeswill just waterboard them with
peanut butter water I mean, atleast they get nutrients, yeah,
but can you imagine that gettingin your eyes I can't, because I
I can't even imagine getting itin my mouth, because I haven't

(13:39):
tried it you haven't tried yourpowdered peanut butter, it's
like a very sad version ofregular peanut butter.

Speaker 2 (13:47):
Have you ever had powdered milk?

Speaker 1 (13:49):
A long long time ago.
Do you remember thinking this?

Speaker 2 (13:52):
is bad.
Yeah, yeah, I mean like it'sgreat to put in like smoothies,
because then you have otherflavor profiles.
That just adds the peanut to it.
If you're looking for a low fatthing, alternative to regular
peanut butter, you just needsome powder, alternative to
regular peanut butter powder.
You get that peanut butterpowder and I agree, probably
better shelf stable.

Speaker 1 (14:08):
But I think the key to peanut butter in the
apocalypse is the fats yeah, soin the apocalypse, you know you
could probably scrounge up abunch of other powdered things
too.
Like you could get some likepowdered ensure baby formula
powder.

Speaker 2 (14:22):
Mix that in with your powdered peanut butter are we
working towards like a, a peanutbutter sauce for some?

Speaker 1 (14:30):
sort of a tofu it could be.
I'm kind of imagining more oflike a, like a, like a, like an
ice cream substitute at thispoint, like it just become like
a thick, thick, nightmare offlavors.
That's our tagline for ourpeanut butter.
It's a nightmare of flavors.
That's our tagline for ourpeanut butter.
It's a nightmare of flavors.

Speaker 2 (14:47):
BB and Slay yeah, I love the Slay Also.
Do you think I have a career asthe new Enya in the apocalypse,
like if all the good singersare dead?

Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yeah, enya is not making it through the apocalypse
.
We know this.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
Okay, but Lori Salcaterra is a good singer, and
so is Joe Salazar.
Can we just, can I outsourcethat to them?

Speaker 1 (15:05):
I think that we're looking at a super group.

Speaker 2 (15:09):
A super singing group .

Speaker 1 (15:10):
Yeah, like in the apocalypse, you know we're going
to be, we're going to need themusic.
We need to put together thesurvivors best vocal trio.
Well, I'm not in that trio.
You are no, because you're oneof the survivors can I snap my
fingers instead of saying yes,okay, yeah, you can do that well

(15:32):
, I guess.

Speaker 2 (15:32):
Um, we have to go back to this life, but that was
fun to imagine for a littlewhile.
Thank you again z.
That was thanks z.
Just a delight to read.
I got to enjoy it twice.
Dan got to react to it livejust now yeah, what an
experience life updates.
Life updates leah what's?
Happening in our world.
I am eating peanut butter toastevery day for breakfast.

Speaker 1 (15:51):
Oh, yeah ezekiel bread sesame ezekiel bread
specifically have you triedspreading powdered peanut butter
on it instead I have in thepast and you know what I
determined, what I don't want todo.

Speaker 2 (16:01):
That Okay, I like my full fat.
All natural peanut butter,specifically Teddy's all natural
peanut butter.
I'm shilling for Teddy's rightnow.
Also, there's a teddy bear andI think that there's something
about that from my childhood,because in my childhood we had
Kraft peanut butter, which wasalso, which was like the corn
syrupy salted peanut butter.

(16:22):
What we never heard of Kraftpeanut butter, no.
And it had a green lid and agreen label and two cute brown
teddy bears on it, if I remembercorrectly here in America I did
not grow up in America Kraftonly makes cheese products.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
Kraft makes a lot more than cheese products and
none of them should beconsidered dinner.

Speaker 2 (16:45):
Well, I'm just saying that the teddy on the teddy's
peanut butter, all natural,makes me think about the one
from my childhood.

Speaker 1 (16:47):
And that's how marketing works all right well.

Speaker 2 (16:50):
Now I'm sad why, craft makes peanut butter you're
just sad you never experiencedit.
Honestly, it's probably made inthe same factory as skippy, uh,
or sorry, um, skippy and slay.
What is it pb?
Skip and slay, I'm forgettingnow skip and slay skippy, the
end pb and slay.
I'm putting you know what pb,skip and slay.

(17:12):
That's my contribution to this.
Anyways, my point is, skippy isprobably the same as craft
peanut butter.
Probably is just at thedifferent label.
Who?
knows, yeah, craft just slapstheir labels on things in canada
so that's my important lifenews still eating my peanut
butter toast yeah, um, want toknow.

Speaker 1 (17:27):
My life update is yes , uh, no one died at work this
week, except for america, exceptfor america, uh.
But you know what?
America has been dying for along time since it was born.

Speaker 2 (17:42):
Some might say yeah well, that's the thing was it
ever?

Speaker 1 (17:45):
whatever, I yeah that's the thing about life is
that we're all dying since theday we were born.
That is true, uh, I, I don'tknow.
I don't know if I mentioned inthe previous episode, but yeah,
somebody died at work.
It was sad.
Uh, they had a steamroller rollover them, which sounds

(18:05):
hilarious, but I assure you itwasn't.

Speaker 2 (18:09):
I'm probably gonna delete that if it makes you feel
any better.
One of my friends the friend Ialways reference and make fun of
because I know she'll neverlisten to this podcast uh, I did
tell her about it and she didlaugh, yeah, and then she was
like is it awful that I laughed?
And I was like I mean, that'son you.
And then she told me aboutsomebody else she knew recently
who died in a horrible way, andthen laughed again and I was

(18:30):
like I, I'm not laughing that'show we deal with things now I
mean laughing is how I expresspain a lot of the time yeah um,
but yeah, I'm glad no one died.
That worked this week.
I'm glad that you didn't die.
I'm sorry that that person died.
Yeah, your job is very scary.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
I don't really know who the person was.
They were on a different crew,but they were working on the
same road as us, and that's theonly reason that I know about it
, because this stuff tends notto get out.
Oh, you almost killed somebody,though.
Oh yeah, that's a differentstory.
That's a much longer story.
Do it?
Do we have time?
Can I tell you?

Speaker 2 (19:04):
I'll tell you the short version, since I don't
think you can tell that theshort version.
Short version is dan at thespeed limit, not above, not
below, maybe a little belowbecause it's you and you're in a
dump truck and dan, just forI'm going to say on, I will
testify to this with an oath,that dan does not drive over the
speed limit.
He also doesn't drive under thespeed limit usually, although

(19:25):
sometimes I'm like dude, can youjust like speed it up by two
kilometers an hour.
Oh, sorry, miles, americans isyour stupid fucking miles.
Anyhow.
Um, and he's driving along andthere's a very bendy part of the
road on the way back to theshop where he leaves his truck,
because it's vermont,everything's bendy.
And as he's going around, acorny, a corny, a corner, a

(19:48):
subaru very slowly pulls out infront of him, does not
acknowledge his presence, anddan has to slam on his brakes
and drive into the ditch toavoid hitting it.
There you go.

Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yeah, there are tire marks of dan's truck going into
the ditch short of it yeah yeah,and they were oblivious.

Speaker 2 (20:02):
They did something very dangerous.

Speaker 1 (20:04):
Even after I ran into the ditch and stalled out the
truck, um, after screechingtires and and and tire smoke
just billowing out in everydirection, uh, they just
continued down the road at like15 miles an hour and never even
they didn't speed up, they didndidn't slow down, they just kept
going, clearly never even sawme.

(20:26):
I was inches and I mean inchesaway from hitting them.
You have a dangerous job.
Yeah, that person almost diedand they have no idea.
Yeah, I like to think that ifyou come close to death, that
you should use that in thefuture.
You should learn from thatmistake.

(20:49):
You should be like whoa I hadno idea how close to death I was
just then.
I'm going to think about thatreally hard and try to adjust my
behavior in the future.

Speaker 2 (20:59):
This is you assuming that the universe has some kind
of actual moral compass and thatalways there's going to be a
lesson?
But what I've learned is,statistically, the people who
cause accidents are not thepeople who are in the accidents.

Speaker 1 (21:08):
Yeah Well, but what I mean, though, is that that
person is just oblivious to thatlesson, because there is a
lesson you can learn from almostdying.

Speaker 2 (21:19):
Yeah, um, check, check to the right, before you
make a left.

Speaker 1 (21:23):
Yeah, look, check to the right before you make a left
.
Yeah, look, look, look at all,just any direction, really Just
be aware.
Yeah, you know.

Speaker 2 (21:31):
But this isn't the Road Rage podcast.
It could be it.
Could you have a lot of stories, yeah.
On a happier note, I'm doingmore garden stuff because my
feets are doing okay.
I had a little bit of a flareup, they're doing okay.
I had a little bit of a flareup, they're doing all right
again, but I'm doing way morethan I have done in almost three
years, so I'm very pleasedabout that.
And on to the tofu of thisepisode our 4th of July July 6th

(21:53):
actually episode.
We went to the 4th of Julyevent today in the morning and
we saw our librarian friendwho's our neighbor, and we
looked at each other and dan andI were dressed in black and she
was dressed in black and wewere all just were like I said,
we all planned for the samething today and she's like yeah,
it's a funeral, uh, and thenshe had to share that.

(22:14):
She had to be like happy andnice all day, even though she
was sad and depressed, um,because it's bad out there yeah,
um, there was a lot of funthings.
There was like a little craftfair going on yeah, I think we
should explain why we decided togo yeah, why did we go?
Um, because I think it'simportant to support the local
community and the people who whodid try to put on like a nice

(22:36):
event for a very small town it'slike 600 people yeah, community
is important yeah, and I waslike I'm gonna support a couple
of like small local vendors andalso I figure there could be
something interesting I'd learnwith the community, which I did.
We, we met the folks who run thesustainability committee and
they gave me free plants yeah,um, which was cool and a bunch
of free seeds, of native plantsand seeds, and then we were

(22:59):
costed by a bunch of old ladieswho would not let us leave and
tried to sell us things.

Speaker 1 (23:02):
Yeah, we had a lengthy conversation about art.
Yeah, I luckily was able todeter them from talking about
selling me things by justbringing up more art things.
And then, once I so like we'regoing down a line, and the one
that you avoided talk to me andthen, as you moved on, the one

(23:23):
that was talking to you startedtalking to me too, and I'm like
I'm never gonna get away fromthese people.
So I devised a plan to makethem talk to each other.
That was brilliant, and as theywere talking to each other, I
ran away I feel like this is askill you develop from living
dead weekend.

Speaker 2 (23:41):
But it was good.
It was good.
I'm glad we went.
I didn't want to stay for theparade because I just couldn't
handle like an obnoxious levelof patriotism right now the
parade would make me mad yeah,even before now, like for many
years, I've had discomfortaround celebrating the fourth of
july and celebrating canada day, which, for those who don't
know because I forget peopledon't know that is.
It's basically likeindependence day, except for

(24:04):
we're still part of the BritishCommonwealth in Canada, but it's
like when Canada was born day,which is July 1st, incidentally,
and it's felt more and moreweird the more I learn about the
history of both countries andbasically concluding that
countries that are built onsettler colonialism probably
need to be dismantled.

Speaker 1 (24:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:24):
So I just so we're on the right path.
I didn't want to go to theparade.
We're getting.
We're getting closer to thatdream, leah I mean, that's the
fucked up part of all of this,because we are.
It's falling apart yeah, it'sgoing to be this man being
deliberately falling apart, butin a way that's so harmful, yeah
, to people.
Uh, I would have preferred aless destructive way, but I
guess sometimes you have to havethat, but I don't.

(24:47):
I, I don't even like sayingthat, because there's people I
know right now who are going tolose access to health care, are
going to be even more afraid toleave their house, are going to
wonder if their citizenshipmatters anymore, because they
were natural or their parents,um, are undocumented, like I.
It's.
I, it's too much.
It's too much.
There could have been adifferent way to do it, but this

(25:08):
is what we've got now, so we'vegot to figure out how to move
on from here.

Speaker 1 (25:11):
Something that's been echoed quite a lot lately is
that the cruelty is the point.
Yeah, and they, they, they aredoing it for the sole purpose of
being cruel, and that sucks.
I wrote a thing.
Do you want to hear the thingthat I wrote?
I do.
I always like hearing thingsyou wrote.
So this is something I've beenthinking about this week because

(25:38):
as the 4th of July crept closerand closer, I've been wondering
what the fuck am I supposed tobe celebrating this week.
So here is something that Iwrote trying to express some of
those thoughts and feelings.
I don't know if I got the wholegist of it, but here we go.
The 4th of July means manythings to many people Fireworks,

(26:00):
grilling outdoors, lounging bythe lake with friends and family
, drinking beers beneath awaving American flag.
We often speak of freedom andliberty, reflecting on our good
fortune to live in a nation bornfrom rebellion against tyranny,
a nation whose foundations restupon democratic ideals.

(26:22):
Wonderful Love, that for us.
But this year especially, I'vefound myself wondering what
theme should we be celebrating.
Are we still celebratingfreedom from tyranny?
Are we celebrating the returnof tyranny Some people are, some
people are or has this holidaybecome an exercise in blind

(26:45):
patriotism A loyalty test?
Perhaps Are we celebratingturning our backs to injustice
and authoritarianism andignoring the erosion of our
rights and the use of forceagainst our own people?
Or is there another reason tocelebrate, a reason more aligned
with the true spirit of thisday?

(27:06):
The 4th of July was originally adeclaration that our inherent
rights liberty, autonomy andrepresentation are not
negotiable.
The Revolutionary War was notjust about defeating a distant
empire.
It was about challenging thevery notion that absolute power
should exist unchecked andbeyond accountability.
On this Independence Day, wemust honor the revolutionary

(27:30):
spirit by reflecting on not onlywhat this nation is, but what
it can and must become.
It means actively resistinginjustice and authoritarian
overreach.
It means echoing theconvictions of revolutionaries
who knew their rights, theirdignity and their freedom was
worth defending.
The revolutionary spirit isn'tconfined to history.

(27:52):
It lives whenever people decidethat tyranny in any form must
never be quietly accepted.
Happy independence day.

Speaker 2 (28:01):
and this is where the fireworks go off fireworks
barking dogs shaking dog in mybed terrified yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:13):
So I don't know, I I've never really fully um
embraced the whole blindpatriotism of the holiday yeah
like some people.
They go out there with theirfucking american flag hats and
their american flag shirt andtheir american flag shorts and
they drink their american flagbud light while uh shooting off

(28:36):
uh roman candles with each hands, while driving their lifted
diesel pickup truck andlistening to country music.
It's a party in the usa.

Speaker 2 (28:45):
They're yeah, that's what they're singing, they're
definitely they're definitelylistening to party in the usa.

Speaker 1 (28:51):
Um, I've, you know I'm a veteran and some some some
people might know that becauseI mention it sometimes um, and
you know the whole fighting forfreedom thing.
Most veterans don't believethat's true.
We know that we were there justoppressing people for oil.
Um, it had nothing to do withfreedom.

(29:13):
No war that we've ever foughtwas about freedom.
Um, if you believe thepropaganda, you could make some
arguments about world war ii,but we're not going to talk
about that because that's awhole different story, about a
whole different authoritariannightmare and a whole bunch of

(29:33):
movies that back up the ideathat we're the good guys because
we were there last or something.
I don't know.
I'll probably delete that part,but my point is that this blind
patriotism stuff alwaysbothered me and it bothers me

(29:53):
even more now that the thingsthat we're supposed to be
celebrating are just beingtrampled over, like freedom,
justice for all, liberty.
Um, you know are celebratingthe idea that we defeated
tyranny back in 1776, or atleast began the war against

(30:15):
tyranny again in 1776, but likeare we?
Are we just supposed to be like, yeah, I love that we did that
back then.
I hope we don't do it now thatwe have it here, because this is
a different brand of tyrannyand I love it because america
that was deep yeah, I don't knowwhere I'm going with this

(30:37):
anyways okay

Speaker 2 (30:40):
uh, let's move on yeah, I think I just want to say
that what's complicated for meabout the united states, um, I
think I've said this before, butI'll say it again is, even as
you were reading your piecethere I think it was very
powerful I was thinking abouthow, like, okay, independence,
but independence for who?
white men, yeah, on land thatwas stolen, and it was

(31:03):
specifically for rich guys whowere upset about being taxed for
their products yeah um, and sothere's like I think in almost
every piece of history of theunited states even the things
that are celebrated as quoteunquote good there's like a very
dark shadow side.
Yeah, um, and when I thinkabout the funeral of the united

(31:38):
states of america, it's it'slike a human being, it's like a
really fucked up as just oneperson, because it's a country,
it's made of millions of peopleand the ancestors all came
before us, but it just feelscomplicated.
You can't have a funeral or aday of patriotism for the United
States and be like this is allgood or this is all bad.
It's some sort of fucking messything with really really,

(31:58):
really dark and problematicroots.

Speaker 1 (32:00):
Yeah, really dark and problematic roots.
Yeah, and that's when in myessay, if I was going to write a
longer essay, I would havetouched on that idea itself,
because that's also somethingthat bothers me.
We're told this version thatwe're supposed to be really
happy about, like truth andliberty and justice for all, and
that's not what we have, butthe idea that we need to, we

(32:26):
need, we need to make americagreat again.

Speaker 2 (32:29):
No, please, no, I'm trying to say it I feel like all
the slogans have been fuckingstolen, like build back better
also good, yeah, but like notwhat I mean my point is is that
there are, there are things thatamerica are supposed to stand
for and they haven't.

Speaker 1 (32:48):
It hasn't, yeah, um, and probably never has, and we
need to demand that americastands for those things, and
that's what I think needs to bedone in the revolution.
We need to, we need to say yeah, it's not good enough just to
go back to where we started.
We need big changes, we, weneed the america.

(33:12):
You've been telling us that.
We've been pledging to everymorning of elementary school
yeah like the, the things thatyou tell us this country is and
the things that you tell us thatwe're fighting for when we go
to wars.
That's what we need and that'swhat we deserve.

Speaker 2 (33:29):
Yeah, it's I.
I'm grateful that I grew upsomewhere else.
Yeah, I'm going to be honestabout that.
I I'm grateful that I live herenow.
It's my chosen home, althoughwe you did show me recently
signs that are when you'reentering Vermont or no.
Is it when you're leavingVermont to go to New Hampshire?
You're like goodbye Canada.

Speaker 1 (33:48):
Yeah, somebody put up a banner on the border between
Vermont and New Hampshire yeah,on the highway that goes from
Canada down through to NewHampshire, and it said you are
now leaving canada, yeah, so Imean, I did choose a state,
ultimately, that was morealigned with my values or closer

(34:08):
um to what I, what the unitedstates is, I forget my point.

Speaker 2 (34:13):
I think, oh, that's what it is.
Is that I was?
I was given a different form ofcolonial brainwashing.
Yeah, um, and I would dare sayslightly better.
Oh, canada, of course.
Well, it's.
I still learned all of the.
I learned a bunch of myths andI'm still unlearning them to
this day.
But I feel like the way that youwill have to pledge allegiance

(34:36):
every day and the deliberate andongoing suppression of
information that is not comingfrom rich white people, which
right men.
Specifically, the way theeducation system works here in
this country, like it justreally sets people up to not
know what the fuck is actuallygoing on and to perpetuate their
own oppression.

(34:56):
And I can't even blame thosepeople that are in that
situation, because I've met Imet so many, being a university
professor in Georgia where I waslike you've had no chance to
know anything outside of whatyou've been told.
And not only that, you learnedthat any critical thinking is
bad.
Yeah, jesus hates that.
Questioning is the worstpossible thing you could do.

(35:17):
Conformity is very importantand everything you're told by
your parents and at church andin school is the absolute,
ultimate, 100% truth, and thereis no other truth.
So, like, how do you stop that?
Like I don't have.
I guess what I'm trying to sayI'm just going on a random rant
is that I don't have that kindof indoctrination about the
United States which allows me tosee things more easily.

(35:37):
Also, I've been in a countrythat has obviously not to the
degree of any other place,pretty much, but we have
experience being under theshadow of the United States and
there's always been a lot ofanimosity towards the United
States from Canadians.
So I think that helps me alittle bit.
See it, and I was going to gointo a piece here about all the
terrible things that havehappened since we recorded our
last episode.
But now I'm like, do we evenneed to do that?

(35:59):
We can just give a quick, veryquick overview.
Like we even need to do that,we can just give a quick, very
quick overview.
Like, since we last recorded, Imade a joke about like what
other terrible things gonnahappen after the war in iran and
then more things did.
The big ugly ass bill passedyeah that's gonna strip millions
of people from their medicaidand and so many other terrible
things.
So many, so many others.
We're gonna put a link in theshow notes to an article that is

(36:21):
publicly available and free, um, but I think that we could.
We could just do that news forhours, so I think the better
option is to just read about it.
And then the other one that isfrankly more disturbing, which
is saying a lot.
That is more disturbing, wasthe supreme court's birthright
citizenship decision, whichwasn't so much about um the.

(36:42):
They didn't rule on theconstitutionality of whether or
not, uh, you could take awaynaturalized citizens or like so,
not naturalized um birthrightcitizenship, whether that was
constitutional, but they didultimately rule that any
injunctions from lower courtsdon't fucking matter.

Speaker 1 (36:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:57):
Anytime.
So now, if Trump makes a, anexecutive order, that's like I
am banning abortion pills, forexample.
A clinic can fight back againstthat and if the clinic wins,
the clinic can distributeabortion pills, but it no longer
applies to all of us anymore.
So essentially it makes it evenmore obvious.

(37:19):
It already was this way, butnow it's's like extra that
justice is only afforded peoplewho have the resources to do it
and the rest of us are fucked.
Um.
So that really really reallyscared me, and that's when I
started to be like okay, eventhe like basic systems, uh, of
checkpoints and balances theunited states government had
that made it somewhat tenable asa country, have been thrown out

(37:39):
the fucking window.
Yeah, yeah, um.
So I kind of came to theconclusion that we need a
funeral and then to fight.
So I know you're like inrevolutionary place, but I'm in
funeral place and I want tostart with a quote by frederick
douglas, who uh was an americansocial reformist, abolitionist,
orator, writer and statesman.
He was the most importantleader for the movement of

(38:01):
african-american civil rights inthe 19th century, and he wrote
this 4th of July is yours, notmine.
You may rejoice, I must mourn,and I think that that's an
important thing to sit with,because what we're looking at
today is always been true for alot of people in this country
and I feel like these are thingswe've said before and I'm going

(38:21):
to have to keep saying thembecause, frankly, I need to
remember it as somebody who iswhite and English speaking,
because the more that Idissociate and think about like,
well, my little world is good,you know my.
Right now I have a job.
Right now I have a wonderfulhusband.
Right now I have cute dogs, agreat house, I have food in my
fridge, like all these thingsare are wonderful, and that

(38:44):
allows me to feel just safeenough to not fight back.
And I think I have to mourn theconcept of that safety even
because it's not real and it iscoming for all of us.
And whatever safety I had wasborrowed off of the uh or on the
backs of violence andoppression of other people.
So I just can't live like thatanymore.
I can't sit like that.

(39:04):
I can't sit and pretend thatI'm gonna be okay and just like
hope somebody else doessomething yeah, and then, and
then revolution, yeah, and I andI, I agree, like you know.

Speaker 1 (39:16):
I think that, um, we're in this weird place, as as
as we're going out and we'reprotesting and we're making our
opinions known about howterrible the things are that are
happening.
There's this idea of like let'sfix the things that got broken

(39:36):
in this process and geteverything back to normal.
Or there's the other direction,which is let's just tear it down
, let's tear it down being torndown yeah, and I think that,
like this idea of the funeral isexactly, is exactly the reality
of the situation, because it'snever, it's never going back the

(40:00):
way it was.
We're not, we're not gettingBarack Obama as a third-term
president.

Speaker 2 (40:07):
I just need to remind us all, even when Barack Obama
was the president alsothird-term problematic but even
when he was the president, hewas bombing Pakistan with drones
.

Speaker 1 (40:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:17):
And he was very pro-Israel and he deported a
shit ton of fucking migrantpeople.
So not perfect, and that's whyI think it's like we need to
talk today.
But like, what are we?
What are we mourning?
What are we saying goodbye to?
What are we burying?
And I think the biggest one ismyths, a lot of myths about what
america is, that it was foundedon liberty and justice for all,

(40:37):
was it?
I don't believe it.
I don't believe it because itexcluded people from the very
beginning and it was on stolenland.
How can that be?
Liberty and justice for all?
yeah I wish people could seedan's face.
He looks so sad with what I'msaying.
I'm curious what your reactionis to that no, I mean it's, it's
true.

Speaker 1 (40:55):
Um, and this goes back to like what I was saying
about, like the promise of ofthese things like these these
were all things that we weretold, like liberty and justice
for all you know, the Statue ofLiberty and huddled masses and
whatnot.
These were the things that theysaid we had and those were the
reasons to think that Americawas great, and it just never was

(41:20):
that way.
It's just like this issomething that I've been
grappling with ever since mytime in the army, is like ever
since the first person walked upto me and thanked me for my
service, for, like, defendingfreedom or whatever the fuck,
and I'm just like, but I didn'tdo that.
I didn't do any of that, yeah,and then, as I kept on going

(41:41):
down that rabbit hole andlearning more and more and
unlearning the things aboutAmerica specifically that just
aren't true, I'm just like noneof this is what they say it is.
It could be, it could so easilybe, but it isn't.

Speaker 2 (42:03):
That is true.
I think that those ideals ofliberty and justice for all are
beautiful, but, yeah, it's neverbeen that and that is what we
need to mourn and really sitwith it and accept that the
roots of this system we live inare fucking rotted.
Yeah, rotted, infested withrotted.

(42:27):
Yeah, rotted, infested with um.
Actually, I saw a like zoomed inimage of this like bacteria
eater thing.
It's like a vampire and itlooks, it's very strange looking
.
It's like a.
It's a, it's something thatpreys on bacteria and like
infects it almost like a zombieand then turns that bacterial
cell into like itself and thendoes more destruction and it's
like the strange thing.
That was kind of like a spiderand then the head of it is like
a kind of like a diamond, butit's really tall and lanky and

(42:50):
fucking nightmare fuel.
I'll try and find a link andput it in the show notes if I
can, but either way, I feel likewhatever that is was there from
the very beginning, eroding anyhope that we had for true
liberty, justice, liberty andjustice for all, and the other
thing about it is that that myth, like you said, has pacified us
.
It's been our fucking pacifierin the mouths of people with

(43:11):
relative privilege.
Yeah, like you and I, um, andthis again still true.
I'm not being oppressed.
Yeah, and like I'm doing great,why can't you do so great over
there?
This is the country of libertyand justice for all.
Add in a little bit ofbootstraps.
Yeah, maybe you're just nottrying hard enough.
Nothing to do with my skincolor.

Speaker 1 (43:28):
Yeah, Maybe if you stop complaining about the
police beating you oh my God.

Speaker 2 (43:34):
And I think, like when we let ourselves believe
that we are exceptional, likeI've been grappling with
thinking about all the placesthat currently have dictators in
place and I've always thoughtof them as like it's like until
cancer happens to you orsomebody you love, it's always
something that happens tosomebody else and that is how
america and I think canada alsosees themselves as, yeah, these

(43:56):
are things that happen to otherpeople and other places and like
we're too good for this.
Again, that's from the positionof people in relative power who
, frankly, we have beenbrainwashed and manipulated into
oppressing everybody else sothat we can maintain this
position.
Yeah, clear, we've got a.

(44:23):
I don't.
The thing that scares me islike I don't know how to.
I don't know how to reform it,I don't know if that's possible,
and I also know that scrappingit, like what we're seeing
happening now, is causingimmense pain.
But I also know we can't justfucking sit here yeah and we
can't pretend that, like votingin a couple of years is the
solution it isn't.

Speaker 1 (44:41):
I saw a video from somebody earlier this week, one
of the co-hosts of the ColonialOutcasts podcast, which I have
very mixed feelings about thetwo of them.
One of them is Greg Stoker,who's an army vet and

(45:07):
self-proclaimed black flaganarchist.
He has a lot of really goodideas and he's very intelligent,
and sometimes he says thingsthat I just shake my head at.
But my point is that they thinkvery much about this kind of
stuff all the time, and this guywas talking specifically about
revolution and talking about howcountries that have revolutions
um, the people of that countrytend to do very well after the

(45:32):
revolution interesting.
Um, the people have a lot togain by having a revolution
because they're being oppressed,they have nothing, they have
nothing left right yeah, I meanwe're stripping away health care
.
Yeah, access to food for peoplewho really need it and what if
the people rose up and, uh, toreeverything down and then built

(45:55):
it back up the way that theythought it should be built up?
So like suddenly we go frombeing oppressed, a police state,
everybody's just scrapping byfor food and resources to, oh,
we've got all the resources nowand we're making it so that you
have healthcare and also, let'sdivide up the booty.

(46:18):
Suddenly you know the, the, the1% of the 1% having 50% of the
wealth suddenly becomes the 99%are now dividing up the 1% of
the 1% 50% of the wealth betweenthem and we're suddenly much
better off.

Speaker 2 (46:36):
I mean, there's no question of that.
There are so many models outthere of different ways to do
this.
Um, specifically, one of themthat I want to talk about today
ironically has some origins inconnection with the United
States government.
Dan, have you heard of theHaudenosaunee before?

Speaker 1 (46:52):
You've mentioned them .

Speaker 2 (46:53):
At breakfast this morning.

Speaker 1 (46:55):
At breakfast this morning.

Speaker 2 (46:56):
But have I mentioned them before?
Yeah Well, who are theHaudenosaunee?
I don't know.
You're in good company, mostpeople don't.
I did not know about them untiluniversity.
I learned about theHaudenosaunee Confederacy in
university in Canada,specifically about indigenous

(47:16):
history, because they borderthey sort of border both what's
considered now the United Statesand Canada in their own
territory.
But then I also had to learnmore about the Haudenosaunee
Confederacy because of teachingcultural anthropology down in
Georgia and one of the articlesthat was like a required one
from the book that we used wasabout how the Haudenosaunee

(47:40):
Confederacy used was about howthe Haudenosaunee Confederacy,
which has been around since 1142, it's a pretty old confederacy
actually provided the blueprintfor Benjamin Franklin to write
the Constitution.
Wow.

Speaker 1 (47:55):
Did they also discover electricity?

Speaker 2 (47:59):
I don't think so.

Speaker 1 (48:01):
I was just wondering if Benjamin Franklin just stole
all of his best ideas maybemaybe like the, the hodna shodan
is like yeah, so uh, we've gotthis kite and a piece of metal
and it's a lightning storm andjust watch what happens.
It'll blow your mind, and thenbenjamin franklin's like.

Speaker 2 (48:17):
I discovered that I mean, that's a very white person
thing to do, just to be like.
I think that already exists.
Oh, you'll be doing forever.

Speaker 1 (48:26):
I discovered it, it's and then the next day he's like
I have an idea for the unitedstates postal service.

Speaker 2 (48:33):
The whole show is like what the fuck, dude, that
was our postal service well, Idid a quick quiz to see how
people knew about this because,like I said, I didn't know about
it until adulthood, and lessthan 50 percent of people in a
poll on our Instagram storieshad any idea what the
Haudenosaunee Confederacy was,and when I asked people on
Discord if they knew what it was, it was a resounding no, except

(48:56):
for one person who also tookthe poll on Instagram.
So I don't think they count.
So, other than that one person,everybody had no idea what the
Haudenosaunee Confederacy is,and you're probably still
wondering a little bit moreabout them If you've never heard
of the Haudenosaunee.
They are.
Uh, the English term is theIroquois, or the Iroquois, as

(49:17):
Americans say, but it is aFrench.
I think it is a French originword.
Um, but it is a French.
I think it is a French originword.
This happens a lot withindigenous peoples across the
world is that we give them andby we I mean my ancestors,
literally would give them namesthat were not actually their
names, just like we love to nameplaces and like the mountain we

(49:37):
live by, which is Kaskadanak,but it's called Mount Ascutney.

Speaker 1 (49:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:45):
By settlers.
Settler colonial, people Scolonial people, that's us I.

Speaker 1 (49:47):
I remember this story and I wish I remembered it
better, but like it was about uh, some, some european, uh
travelers who discovered a, agroup of native people to a
different land than they werefamiliar with, and because they
couldn't grasp the concept thatthese people didn't understand

(50:07):
what they were saying.
When they asked, like, likewhat do you call yourselves?
They said a word and they'relike that's, that's what your,
what your name is now, and itturns out that that word was
like what is he saying?
Like they were just like huh.

Speaker 2 (50:28):
And now they're referred to as the huh
confederacy.
Well, I mean, there's so manyexamples of that which is just
wonderful, demonstrations of theignorance of the colonizers,
like even the.
The name of the country I'mfrom, canada, is a hero, a hero
on iroquois word, so hodno shanilanguage, word uh, kanata,
which means village, yeah, orsettlement, um, and they?
That was basically because somewhite folks were like where are
we?
And they're like you're in thisvillage.

(50:49):
Maybe that's the story I'mthinking of, possibly, um, that
happens a lot in colonialhistory.
But to get to back to the hodnoshoni confederacy, I think it
actually provides, in its in itsoriginal form, developed by the
six nations of the hodenoshonepeoples, which were six
different uh groups that unitedtogether to create the

(51:09):
confederacy and to protect eachother from any outside
encroaching forces, have somereally good elements that made
sense, but unfortunately a lotof the other important parts of
it were stripped and removedbecause, to benjamin franklin's
very western eye, probably seenas kind of useless, and you'll
understand why in a minute.
So, first of all, these sixnations united under the great

(51:31):
law of peace, which is one ofthe oldest participatory
democracies across the world,and again, I said it was formed
in 1142, so this is a pretty old, uh, nation.
Um, just a little funanthropology fact.
The state as a politicalorganizing force for people is
only about 5,000 years old.
It's the most unstable, meaningit's the most likely to crumble
, and it's very recent in ourhistory if we're a 200,000-ish

(51:55):
year old species, something likethat.
We've only been doing thisversion of like the United
States, or even the hodno shoniconfederacy, for 5 000 or fewer
years, and most of them areunstable as fuck and like die
every couple, yeah, every 500years or so, constantly changing
.
Um.
Their system emphasized peace,balance, unity and collective
decision making and basically itwas formed by a ground, sorry,

(52:19):
a grand council of chiefs whogovern by consensus.
Those chiefs were nominatedessentially by the clan mothers
of their nation, so womennominated them, so your mom has
to nominate you.
I mean not your mom, oh, theclan mother is like the leader

(52:40):
of the clan.
They were matrilineals or arematrilineal societies, I should
not say were.
That is my inner colonizertalking because I was taught my
entire life that indigenouspeople are no longer here and
always talked about in pasttense, but the Haudenosaunee
Confederacy persists today.
So, anyways, the modelinfluenced Benjamin Franklin

(53:08):
specifically about this idea offederalism and uniting states.
Right, you know.
Is this really surprising?

Speaker 1 (53:13):
uh, no, I mean, I I know you've talked to me about
things like this, but I haven'theard like in depth the uh, you
know anything beyond that?

Speaker 2 (53:22):
this is a direct quote from benjamin franklin.
This is obviously before um theoriginal 13 colonies became the
united states.
He said it would be a strangething if the hodno shoni could
exec I can't speak today, Ithink it's the lack of sleep it
would be a strange thing if thehodno shoni could execute a
union that persisted ages andappears indissoluble.
Yet a like union is impracticalfor 12 colonies to whom it is

(53:45):
more necessary and advantageous.
I don't know why he's thinkingit's more necessary and
advantageous, other than he'sbeing european-centric in that
moment.
But the point is is that heclearly admired their system and
the us borrowed key structuresor key elements from the
hodanashoni confederacy, and youcan still see it in the way
that we run our government today, except for they're being, you

(54:07):
know, dismantled.
So yeah, uh, in 1988, so a longtime after, 200 years after ish
uh, the constitution congressofficially recognized the
influence of the hodonoshoniconfederacy in the formation of
the US Constitution.
Yes, I'm surprised they did itat all.
Yeah, key differences.
I'm going to go over a list ofsome key differences and

(54:29):
similarities between theHaudenosaunee's Great Law of
Peace and the US Constitution.
Are you ready?
Okay, okay.
Great Law of Peace, union of SixSovereign Nations.
United States at that time,union of 13 States, great Law of
Peace they had a council ofrepresentatives, chiefs, for
every one of those six nationsor clans.

(54:50):
In the United StatesConstitution, the equivalent of
that is our senators and houseof representatives.
Right, they come from the statelevel, they represent the state
at the federal level, but theyhave unique responsibilities
within the state and are or inthe nation, in the case of the
Haudenosaunee Confederacy, andtheir job is to manage the

(55:11):
affairs of that nation.
That was very much the same.
So each nation of those sixnations minded their own
business, essentially, but then,when they were making
collective decisions for thefull Confederacy, they would
come together, together, each ofthe representatives, and make
decisions as a group.
Um, here's where it gets fun.
Uh, the hodonoshoni confederacy, sometimes called league of
nations, was a consensus-basedgovernance process.

(55:33):
So voting is not so much how itworked, it was consensus.
You talk things through untileverybody agreed, which is slow,
wow, um, I love slow butimportant.
I love to use the ents fromlord of the rings as an example.
That's consensus, and they usea thing called moots, where you
basically just keep talkingabout it until you agree, until
you find full agreement couldyou imagine?

Speaker 1 (55:53):
that now?

Speaker 2 (55:54):
I mean it wouldn't be the worst idea.
Can you imagine if we had toall fucking talk it out until we
agreed?
It would take a long time, butthe decisions that were finally
made might not be fuckinghorrifying or maybe we just
never make any decisions I don'tknow.
Um, we can get into why.
I think the united states isdestined to fail another time.
Yeah, um, but in the usconstitution we have the checks

(56:16):
and balances and the separationof powers as a way of dealing
with this.
In the us constitution, electedofficials can be impeached, so
Confederacy, the leaders couldbe removed by the clan mothers.
So if you're the chief in thiscontext and I'm the clan mother
and I think you're doing afucking shit job, I can just be

(56:37):
like dude, it's not your jobanymore, and then I would
appoint somebody else.

Speaker 1 (56:40):
Yeah, I like that.
Let's do that.

Speaker 2 (56:43):
So the clan mothers chose and advised the leaders
and had a very significantposition of power.
Here's where this is quitedifferent.
Were there women involved inthe writing of the constitution?
Oh, if they were, they got nocredit if they were.
It was like take down a note,susan, if they were allowed to
read and write, which only theloftiest and richest white women

(57:03):
would be allowed to do.
That, yeah, and get that and itwas only for like I don't even
know I'm clout, because theyweren't supposed to use it for
anything.
Yeah, um, and still, to thisday, right, women are excluded
from politics completely, firstof all, until much, much later,
white women get first entrypoint, using the idea that any
other woman of any other race isinferior.

(57:26):
That's how they actuallyjustified, um, the white
suffragette movement is prettyfucking racist.
But even today we have 535members of Congress.
151 are women.
That's less than 30%.
So you tell me which one is amore sophisticated system.

Speaker 1 (57:41):
Oh, I mean, it doesn't sound good.

Speaker 2 (57:49):
Doesn't sound good for America.

Speaker 1 (57:50):
These numbers aren't numbering.

Speaker 2 (57:55):
It was, see uh, it was, uh, see was.
I hate this, but I want you tokeep it all in here because it
just shows you how my brainfucking works.
Because if you go to the hodanoshoni confederacy website, you
will see for each nation who thechiefs are and who the clan
mothers are.

Speaker 1 (58:07):
This persists to this day oh, so they're still doing
it.
Yes, they're still doing it.
How's it going?

Speaker 2 (58:13):
I mean, they're doing their thing all right um, I
don't think I'm qualified to sayhow it's going.
We'd have to ask them, let'syeah, let's do that uh, but
they're a matrilineal society,meaning that you're um, who you
are in connection to andconsider family or your clan is
through the woman's side, andthey obviously held a lot of
political power constitution.

Speaker 1 (58:33):
Women weren't even people, so we can just move on
from that you know, let's, let'shang on that for a second,
because the idea that I inheritmy father's name and somehow my
father's side of the lineage ismore important doesn't make
sense, especially especially inthe society that we have now,

(58:54):
where we're like a like a like apost-divorce kind of place.
Um, like I, I don't know myfather at all.

Speaker 2 (59:04):
I have his last name, but I don't know that
motherfucker well, we do live ina bilateral system now, yeah,
we have the heritage ofpatrilineal system I'm just
saying, though, that like to totake, to take all of your
heretical, heretical hereditaryhereditary, um hereditary.

Speaker 1 (59:24):
Hereditary identity from your father makes no sense
because you came from your month.

Speaker 2 (59:29):
You lived inside of a person for nine months yeah,
I'm not gonna pretend that Idon't have a strong positive
bias for matrilineal societiesyeah, it makes more sense.

Speaker 1 (59:38):
That's what I'm trying to say.

Speaker 2 (59:39):
Let's move on um, speaking of values right, the
united states government or isformed on this idea of liberty
and justice for all,representation for the great law
of peace and the um holdensherman confederacy.
They're focused on peace,equity and unity.
So even the ideals.
I think we should stillquestion them and like what's

(01:00:00):
best, because the US's idealsare very individualistic.

Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
And I think ultimately it doesn't do us a
service as a community as awhole.
Here's where it gets reallyinteresting.
Here's where it gets reallyinteresting.
The people who were chiefs orrepresentatives at the
Confederacy level for theirnations were called sachems and
they were unpaid leadershiproles.
I mean, there was not money inthe way that we have money,
although there were wampum belts.

(01:00:24):
There was trade, obviously, butthere was no like monetary, not
monetary.
There was no like resourcebenefit.
You're not going to have anicer house or more stuff if you
were the person representingyour nation.
Uh, it's seen as a sacredresponsibility.
It's not meant to be done forpersonal gain at all you know,

(01:00:45):
that's it's.

Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
I don't know if it's actually how it was, but that's
kind of how it was taught to methat leadership in Roman society
was.
It was a public service.
You didn't do it because yougot paid a lot of money.
You did it because they askedyou to the emperor.

Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
Yeah, the Caesar, they were doing all right.
I'm curious, okay, yeah well,I'm curious, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:01:13):
Well, there's there's a lot of different roles in
roman society, and they were allconsidered um public servant
roles, and it wasn't somethingthat you could strive for or
achieve you.
They made you that like, likeyou are going to be this, this
leader person, because you arethe most qualified for the job.
At least that's how it wastaught to me.

(01:01:34):
I don't know how much of thatis true.

Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
I'm just going to say that sounds like some
propaganda shit, but we can lookinto it more later.
And the reason why it makes meraise my eyebrow is Roman
societies like an example ofcolonizers, imperialists, wealth
hoarding, nepotism, like justI'm like, yeah, okay, well, they
gave you the role.
Why did they give you the role?
Because you must qualify.

(01:01:57):
I don't know, that soundsreally.

Speaker 1 (01:01:59):
Rose-colored glasses, yeah, of rome, I mean much like
, but that's just my much like.
Uh, talking the promise ofamerica and where we are now.
I think that there were many,many different stages of roman
empire.
True I don't know which oneyou're talking, then it probably
started off in a place wherethey're like we have a lot of
really great ideas that we thinkare going to work out maybe,

(01:02:22):
and they're like first onerhodes, second one aqueduct,
third, caesar yeah, that's thennero, let's bring it down, um,
but I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
I don't know enough about roman history to speak on
that, but obviously me either.
What I can say is that I dothink that in the early days of
the constitution myunderstanding it was not meant
to be a position that made you aton of money.
Yeah, but that has sincechanged.
Considering our currentpresident can get a yacht from

(01:02:53):
another foreign leader and havethat be okay.
Does he have a yacht now?
I thought he got a yacht fromsomebody.
He got an airplane.
Was it an airplane?
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:03:01):
It was a yacht of an airplane.

Speaker 2 (01:03:03):
Yeah, or you can be given all kinds of fucking money
, and having that kind ofpolitical power equals access to
more money, essentially.

Speaker 1 (01:03:11):
You're also not supposed to have stocks and
things, but that's kind of justa joke now.
Yeah, now you just use yourposition to influence your
stocks.

Speaker 2 (01:03:24):
Yeah, I think the number one thing that we need to
do is get money out of politicsand make it a sacred duty again
.
This is not the only example Ican think of of other cultures
where the way that they werepolitically organized was around
how much can you give away, nothow much can you take and keep.
That's where you got influencefrom was like helping people.
Speaking of that, leadership isfocused on humility, service

(01:03:48):
and peace, versus today where inthe US Constitution, it's tied
to personal ambition, status orparty loyalty, as we see voting
down party lines over and overand over again.
And here's one that I thinkcannot bear enough repeating I
know we've talked about on theshow before which is that
decisions are made in theHaudenosaunee Confederacy with
long-term thinking, like what'sthe impact on the next seven

(01:04:09):
generations, which is a longtime from now.
In fact, seven generations fromnow is around 2200.
So I want you to think aboutevery decision you make every
decision.
If imagine, if the US governmentwas considering the decisions
it was making today and whetherthat would be good for the
people who lived here.
They're not even considering2200.

Speaker 1 (01:04:28):
Four years from now.

Speaker 2 (01:04:29):
Yeah, decisions are made purely on short-term goals
and power moves for the moment,elections markets.

Speaker 1 (01:04:36):
it's ridiculous I'd be surprised if they're even
thinking a week in advance yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:41):
So what's sad is like the great law of peace, I think
, has some foundations thatbenjamin franklin found useful,
but it was abstracted and takenfrom its original um form and
set of values and has now becomethe fucking nightmare that it
is today.
Obviously I also want to sayit's not.
The us constitution was clearlynot only formed from the hodono

(01:05:03):
shoni confederacy.
That was one space ofinspiration when they were
looking for alternative modelsto what they were dealing with,
which is a monarchy, yeah, um,but I still think we could learn
a lot from the hodenosauneeconfederacy and um.
I remember being told once by aperson who I don't know if I can
name, but this was back in theday when I used to work with a
lot of indigenous folks incanada.
They basically said to me likehey, if you think about it this

(01:05:26):
way, um, settlers here are likeour literal, our little sibling.
We're your older sibling, likewe've been here for a while, we
know how things work here, wecan help you, but unfortunately,
your people have decided thatyou know what to do and kind of
fucking it up.
That was the.
That was a much less eloquentway that this person actually
explained it to me, but it'salways sat with me like these

(01:05:48):
are um, native people in theunited states and canada have a
claim to this place that wedon't.
They have a history that wedon't, and I, when I say we, I
mean you and me I don't know whoelse is listening to this and
they are not perfect.
I'm sure the hodno shoniconfederacy is not perfect.
I'm sure they have all kinds ofpolitical fucking weird shit
going on, because we're people,yeah, but I think there's still

(01:06:09):
a lot to learn.
Yeah, and we could look back tothat model, I guess is what I'm
trying to say.
Like could we go and look atthe original model of the
Haudenosaunee Confederacy for ablueprint for what we could be
doing today?

Speaker 1 (01:06:21):
Or could we just give it back to the Haudenosaunee?

Speaker 2 (01:06:24):
Well, they had never gave it up.
Like I said, the HaudenosauneeConfederacy still exists.

Speaker 1 (01:06:34):
Oh, you mean give back the land?
Yeah, well, that would be great.
Just like guys, we don't wantto run it anymore.
Can you do better?
And they're like all right,well, we'll fix it after you
fucked it all up, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:07:00):
I mean, I just got to say like this is a way of
politically organizing that hassustained itself through a
fucking apocalypse ofcolonization.
It's still here.
We are only 249 years old as oftoday.
In this country, theconfederacy, is 883 years old.

Speaker 1 (01:07:06):
They did the math, yeah, and the guy at breakfast
this morning, um, said somethingthat you loved, I forget.

Speaker 2 (01:07:12):
He said, uh uh, 249 years is pretty good for for a
republic yes, I just like, sobadly, want to put on my teacher
hat and share more stuff about,uh, our species and how we
politically organize and whyit's so insane to think that a
state like the united states,like canada, like germany, like

(01:07:34):
britain, like any of them, aregoing to continue to exist.
It's going to change yeahthere's really no way around
that.
That is.
That is the kind of form ofpolitical organization we have,
and it's incredibly unstable.
Do you want to know the oldeststate is in the entire world?
Can you take a guess?
In the whole world?
In the whole world.

Speaker 1 (01:07:54):
The oldest state?
Yes, delaware.

Speaker 2 (01:08:00):
No state.
Okay, I should clarify.

Speaker 1 (01:08:02):
Per capita.

Speaker 2 (01:08:03):
When we're in the United States, we think of state
as like the state inside of theUnited States.
But the terms when I'm usingthe term state now I'm using it
from from an anthropologydefinition lens, which is like a
state is a political territorythat has the right to defend
itself.
Oh, okay, I'm gonna change myanswer and basically has power
over the people within that, uh,physical geographic territory
I'm gonna change my answer.

Speaker 1 (01:08:24):
Per capita, the oldest state is vermont no uh,
so who?
Who is the oldest state?

Speaker 2 (01:08:34):
japan, oh japan is more than 1500 years old now
yeah, that adds up but I want togive you context they've also
gone through many eras too yeah,they have um, but they are in
terms of the uniformity of thegeography and control over that
geography.
The united states are not yet.
Wow, that was weird.
Japan is the oldest um.

(01:08:55):
We have some really young ones.
This is uh I don't know ifthere's newer ones, because this
is I'm looking at a deck.
I wrote in 2016, so it's it'salmost 10 years old, but when I
wrote this in 2016, one of thenewest nations was south sudan
became an independent state in2011.
Oh, slovenia was recognized asan independent state in 1991.
We see what's happening inUkraine right now.

(01:09:17):
Like, just think about how manytimes things have changed in
Eastern Europe.

Speaker 1 (01:09:21):
Yeah, Every couple of years.

Speaker 2 (01:09:23):
Yeah, and again we've had this like myth that the
United States will be the way itis forever, and that's what I
think we need to be open to aswe are reforming.
Like I'm not saying I want tosee the united states
disintegrate, but I am sayingthat like maybe 50 states all
functioning effectively togetherisn't feasible yeah it's a

(01:09:45):
grand experiment.
We've never done this before.
There's 300 and some oddmillion people trying to fucking
figure it out.

Speaker 1 (01:09:50):
That's a lot of people yeah, I remember reading
something a long time ago andthey said that the united states
is actually a country of like11 countries and that, like
there's, you couldgeographically uh divide up the
united states into areas thatare so distinctly different from
the other, like by culture anddemographic, and like some of

(01:10:15):
these places are so very, verydifferent from other places.
Like, if you go to new mexicoand arizona, it is not the same
world as vermont, yeah, it'sjust in the.
If you go to georgia, it's notthe same as portland oregon.

Speaker 2 (01:10:31):
Uh, if you go to, if you go to, uh, minnesota, that's
very different from florida,and uh, yeah, I don't know,
maybe there's something to thatI I'm gonna say something that I
am worried will be misconstrued, but I think it's important to
say with what I know, um, whichis that a nation state is very
different than a state.
A nation state has a uniformculture and typically very are

(01:10:55):
very rare like swaziland is anexample of a nation state where
it's uh, geographic territoriesalso mirror the, the ethnic
group and their sense of like,unified culture.
Most of the time, we're likesmushing a bunch of people
together in large numbers, whenwe were historically, for most
of humanity's existence, livingin bands of like 25 to 50 people

(01:11:17):
yeah and I.
I hesitate to say that because Idon't want to say the diversity
like that we shouldn't havediversity or that we can't
figure out how to get alongacross difference.
But I do think it's harder whenit's 300 plus million people to
do yeah, it's a lot of peoplewith a lot of different needs.
A lot of different views, and Ithink what's important, though,

(01:11:39):
and I think necessary todistinguish, is that and I'm
just riffing here, so I'm goingto say that I'm speaking in
rough draft right now is thatwhat MAGA is trying to do.
What Project 2025 is trying todo right now is make this a
white Christian ethnostate.
That's what they're trying todo.
Yeah, and that's because Ithink there is some truth like

(01:12:02):
there's always some truth insideof every point of view which is
that it is easier to rule, itis easier to govern, when
everybody has the same set ofvalues and beliefs.
But there are plenty ofexamples nowadays of people
coming from all backgrounds andwalks of life, who who create
shared values together and thenlive from those shared values.

Speaker 1 (01:12:21):
It doesn't have to be based on your fucking race or
religion most, most of us thatlive in the united states can do
that.
We can all coexist together,regardless of who our neighbors
are, what they look like andwhat they have for dinner.
We've been doing it for a longtime and really it's been pretty

(01:12:46):
clear lately that the peoplewho have a problem with that are
the people in power.
And the only reason that us, asthe people, tend to think that
there's a problem with that arethe people in power.
And the only reason that us, asthe people, tend to think that
there's a problem is because thepeople in power purposefully
make it so that we are at oddsand tell us that we should not

(01:13:08):
be functioning together as apeople, functioning together as
a people.
I saw a sign, uh, this week,driving like I do um, it was a
trump sign, big one.
Uh, right next to a sign thatsays divided we fall, and I just
wanted to get out of my truckand knock on this door and just
be like you have conflictingsigns in your yard.

(01:13:31):
Yes, divided we fall.
The sign next to it.
The reason, like, was he tryingto be ironic?
I don't know, but they're theones that want to divide us, not
us to divide us, not us.
The rest of us are perfectlyhappy, um, you know, going,

(01:13:55):
going, going out to the, the,the indian restaurant, on
wednesday and then getting pizzaon friday, and then listening
to, uh, to, um salsa musicreggaeton and salsa at the same
time one in each year.

(01:14:21):
The rest of us are perfectlyhappy experiencing this
multicultural environment wherethere are so many new things to
experience and learn from thatwe can use that to fulfill
ourselves and discover our ownpurpose in the world, instead of
worrying about who we'resupposed to be mad at, for
whatever reason.

Speaker 2 (01:14:37):
Yeah, I mean, it just shows you the roots of racism
in this country have reallyfucked us.
Yeah, because another exampleof what you're saying is you
know again this idea ofwhiteness.
We were not white people untilrelatively recently and you had
people coming from all overeurope who had layers, toned
skin, uh, with varying,different cultures, who have

(01:14:59):
managed now to identify as thesame thing and like still, you
know, be like, you'll be, likemy proud irish heritage, or I'm
proud of being um norse, or I'mmaking shit up now german,
french, but we were able to findcommon ground.
But unfortunately, we were ableto find common ground because
we were.
We decided to sign up for adichotomy where it's like it's

(01:15:20):
us versus them, and them meaningeverybody who doesn't have the
share, the same complexion as us, basically, and if we subjugate
them, then we don't have tosubjugate each other.
It was essentially the like,very toddler logic of the
situation, of how we came to behere, and what I like to
remember is that, like, at theend of the day, even people who
I virulently disagree with,including my brother, we all

(01:15:40):
have the same basic needs anddesires.
And if we could learn to talkabout that way and to like
imagine what the world could betogether from that place and set
this aside for a minute andjust be like what is a good life
?
Look like to you, to you, notwhat your neighbors are doing or
not doing.
We might get somewhere.
And that's what participatorydemocracy is.
It takes time, it takesconversations, it takes getting

(01:16:03):
to know your neighbors and ittakes years to form consensus.
It should not be something thatjust gets voted on and one
extra vote is what makes thedecision.
That is not democracy, that'styranny, even aside from all the
other shit that's happeningright now.
That alone, like the way thatwe think of democracy in this
country, is not democratic.
And that's the end of my rant.

(01:16:23):
For the day I didn't know wherethis conversation was going to
go, but here it is.
Here it is one last fact, funfact the word caucus most people
.
I asked a bunch of folks ondiscord what language they
thought it was.
Some people said russian, latin, um french was a big one.
Uh, greek is one I often getyeah, and it's not, it's an

(01:16:43):
algonquin word also from thehodno shoni confederacy.
It was a form of of informaldiscussion about a political
issue to make those decisionsuntil we got there.
And that's until we got thereand that's where we got the term
US caucus and caucusing withyour party to figure shit out
together.
There's so many things that arederived from other cultures
that we give zero credit to.
I guess Congress did brieflygive it credit, but something

(01:17:06):
tells me that's been taken downfrom the website lately.
Oh, absolutely so that's it.
I just wanted to shove thatlittle factoid in there.
Thank you, Goodbye everybody.

Speaker 1 (01:17:14):
Goodbye everyone.
Thanks for joining the ZombieBook Club.
What an episode today was.
I don't know what it was, butthanks for listening.
We should probably mentionzombies at some point.
Oh yeah, zombies, let's makeeveryone zombies.

Speaker 2 (01:17:31):
You know what?
Go and listen to Zombies by thecranberries.
It has very revolutionaryenergy that, I think, makes
sense for this episode.
I also want to finish up bysaying dan and I aren't experts.
You're just listening to twopeople talking about this and
trying to figure it out.
Expert um and well, yeah,definitely, neither of us are
experts in Rome, so feel free tocorrect us.

Speaker 1 (01:17:53):
Yeah, tell us all about Rome, let us know.
Um, you could also, uh, leaveus a rating or a review.
Maybe in that review, youshould tell us what what Rome
was all about.

Speaker 2 (01:18:05):
Was it egalitarian?
Something tells me now.

Speaker 1 (01:18:07):
Uh, you could also send us a voicemail again, you
could.
You could school us on Rome forup to three minutes.
I send us a voicemail Again.
You could school us on Roam forup to three minutes.
I would love that At614-699-0006.
Don't worry, we won't pick up,it just goes to voicemail.
Just leave us a voicemail.
You could also sign up for ournewsletter.
I'm trying really hard to keepit out of people's spam folders.
I think I figured it out.

Speaker 2 (01:18:28):
Oh yay, so maybe the next one will go to your inbox.
We should just do the last oneagain, because it was good,
nobody got it.

Speaker 1 (01:18:34):
We'll see.
I don't know how many peopleopened it.
I think a couple people did.
But yeah, if you want to stayin touch, you can follow us on
Instagram atzombiebookclubpodcast.

Speaker 2 (01:18:45):
Or join the Brain Munchers Collective on Discord.
We watch things like Zoombiestoo.

Speaker 1 (01:18:51):
Yeah, we watch things there.

Speaker 2 (01:18:53):
And I tag everyone.
I put at everyone hey, do youknow what the Haudenosaunee
Confederacy is?
And if you do, don't say whatit is, Just say yes or no.
You'll get things like that.

Speaker 1 (01:19:03):
All those links are in the description down below.
There's so many links.
You can just click links fordays, but the revolution is nigh
and you're in it whether youlike it or not.

Speaker 2 (01:19:17):
So we gotta do shit, people, and I'm saying that for
myself too, because I'm scaredas fuck.
Bye, bye, bye, bye byerevolution is nigh.
Bye, bye, bye, bye.

All Episodes

America's Funeral... I mean 4th of July YAAAAAAAY! | Zombie Book Club Ep 103

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Crime Junkie

24/7 News: The Latest

Stuff You Should Know

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}America's Funeral... I mean 4th of July YAAAAAAAY! | Zombie Book Club Ep 103