December 11, 2025 • 22 mins
We’re rolling out a “Human‑Creators‑First” policy and explaining why our podcast will now prioritize authors who write their own stories and use human‑made cover art. In this bonus episode we unpack the hidden costs of AI‑generated covers—from unpaid training data to the erosion of artists’ livelihoods—and share concrete alternatives: finding independent cover illustrators, responsibly using stock assets, and leveraging skill‑sharing networks.
If you’re an indie author feeling pressured by AI tools, DM us and we’ll connect you with resources and real‑world help.
Contact information & relevant links
- Instagram – cover artist Karl Dahmer: https://instagram.com/dahmerart
- Instagram – author Ross Killey: https://instagram.com/rosskilley_author
- Shutterstock AI Contributor Fund article: https://petapixel.com/2023/07/12/shutterstock-may-have-paid-out-over-4-million-from-its-ai-contributor-fund/
- XPiks blog on Shutterstock payouts: https://xpiksapp.com/blog/how-much-shutterstock-pays-contributors/
- Toolify AI news on AI‑powered book covers: https://www.toolify.ai/ai-news/aipowered-book-covers-the-ethical-dilemma-for-indie-authors-3626920#bar5
- RNZ story on NZ Book Awards AI‑cover ban: https://www.rnz.co.nz/life/books/top-writers-ruled-out-of-nz-book-awards-due-to-ai-covers
- NPR coverage of 70+ authors’ open letter (2025): https://www.npr.org/2025/07/03/nx-s1-5454736/more-than-70-writers-send-open-letter-about-ai-to-literary-publishers
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:20):
Surprise.
Surprise.
Bonus episode.
It's a it's a bonus.
It's kind of an announcement.
SPEAKER_01 (00:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (00:26):
We love you.
SPEAKER_01 (00:27):
But it's unexpected.
Yeah.
For you, we knew we were doingthis for a while now.
Well, yeah, kind of, except wealso just decided to do it
today.
SPEAKER_00 (00:34):
Well, we true.
It's been building.
Um, we love you.
We are growing as people.
And as a horde.
And as a horde and a community.
And there's something importantthat we really think we need to
share with you now before 2026.
Um, we've been in deeperconversations behind the scenes
(00:55):
with a lot of awesome indieauthors, artists, readers, and
uh folks whose work we feature.
And a really clear messageemerged.
And honestly, it's not one thatwe weren't aware of.
It's just now we're ready tomake a clear policy statement.
Um but what we heard is thatamidst what feels like a tsunami
of generative AI that is gettinguh violently shoved into our eye
(01:18):
holes every day.
My eye holes, uh, our book clubis here to expressly support
human-generated art and writing.
And the too long don't listen ofthis episode, although please
hear us out to the end, becauselike all topics, there is nuance
here.
We believe that books belong topeople, real authors and real
artists, not AI.
(01:39):
And our mission is to celebratehuman creativity now before it's
erased.
SPEAKER_01 (01:43):
Please don't erase my creativity.
I'm having a hard enough time asit is.
Well, that's when I just pressthe back button and delete you
right now.
Control Z.
Yeah.
So why are we talking about thisnow?
Um, the uh the conversationaround AI and publishing is
happening as we speak.
It's been happening for a while,but it's really ramping up right
(02:08):
now.
Um, more creators are facing thepressure to uh use AI to cut
costs or keep up.
And we want to help shape afuture that celebrates human
creativity.
SPEAKER_00 (02:19):
Yeah.
We want uh we don't believe thatgenerative AI is the inevitable
outcome for art.
SPEAKER_01 (02:27):
Yeah.
For for a lot of people it feelsthat way.
Um, but we we don't think weneed it to take over every facet
of our creativity.
And every corner.
And every corner just becauseit's cheap and easy.
SPEAKER_00 (02:41):
Yeah, and it's actually not cheap or easy.
That's just how corporationswant us to feel right now.
They want us to feel like it'sinevitable because they're
hoping that they're gonna make alot more money off of us.
SPEAKER_01 (02:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:51):
Look up the AI bubble burst.
SPEAKER_01 (02:53):
Yeah.
Um, so we just want ourlisteners to be informed before
harmful norms take root.
Kind of like a zombie infection.
SPEAKER_00 (03:04):
Yeah.
Some might say it's too late.
The infection has spread.
But what we're saying is in ourlittle corner of the internet
universe, this is a safe zone.
SPEAKER_01 (03:13):
It's an AI safe zone.
Yeah.
So we have a new policy that'sgoing to center human creators
first.
You can even call it the humancreators first policy.
It kind of sounds like we'relike trying to pass a bill or
something.
I mean, that has been part of myprevious job, so there might be
some influence here.
(03:35):
Um we're prioritizinginterviewing authors who write
their own stories and utilizehuman-created cover art.
And why, you might ask, isbecause we want a future where
creators can still pay the rent.
Um maybe even own a home.
Gas.
That's crazy uh no.
(03:55):
We don't want creators withhomes.
We want homeless creatorsbecause that makes them hungry
and that makes their art better.
SPEAKER_00 (04:01):
Yeah.
And so when we're talking tofolks about who we're going to
be interviewing, we're justgoing to ask if AI has been used
and inform them gently that ifit has, then this is uh a book
club that that focuses primarilyon authors that don't use it.
And it's not a a judgment call.
Your choice to use AI,generative AI specifically, is
your choice.
Uh, and it's our choice what whowe and what we feature on this
(04:23):
podcast.
And if you're listening to thisand you're like, oh, I am an AI
author, and like this makes meuncomfortable or my feelings are
hurt, or how, what do I dowithout AI?
I don't even have anotheroption.
I can't afford things.
I know that in the last fewyears it's come to really feel
that way because of how muchwe've been bombarded with
AI-generated art and the ease ofpressing buttons to make it
(04:45):
happen.
And we have so many amazingexamples of indie authors who
are scrappily putting togetherreally beautiful cover art and
collaborating with artists anddoing all kinds of things to
make that possible.
And so if you are somebody whoright now is in that oh crap
moment, um you are welcome to DMus and we're happy to provide
you some suggestions if you'reopen to them.
SPEAKER_01 (05:07):
Yeah.
Did you know that I'm a coverartist?
SPEAKER_00 (05:09):
Yeah, this entire policy is really about getting
Dan business.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:14):
That's how we're doing it.
Actually, I've I have zero, zerobusiness um because my career as
a cover artist ended before iteven started.
Because I I'm I'm gonna say thatAI probably had something to do
with it.
SPEAKER_00 (05:29):
Yeah, for sure.
Which wasn't really encouragingto even try.
The other thing is like I'veheard lots of really great
examples of people doing likecreative trades in exchange for
art using stock art that is hasthe no AI button pressed,
because you gotta do thatnowadays.
Yeah.
Um, because they want you to optin without thinking about it.
You have to intentionally optout.
Um, and like you all know, Ihave my silly little chibis
(05:51):
zombies.
Maybe you want a chibi zombie.
These are things that we'd behappy to talk about with you.
But we're I'm not making thepoint that Dan and I are your
one-stop shop as an alternativefor the AI.
I can't make everyone's coverart.
Um, I'm gonna give Alice B.
Sullivan a shout-out right now.
Go check out her covers.
She has a strict no AI coverpolicy, and she has great
covers.
(06:12):
And she's just one of many.
I'll give another shout-out.
Ross Killey author.
Uh, worked for worked with umDahmer art, and no, not the one
you're thinking of.
It's really this person's lastname.
Nothing to do with the other onethat may be occurring to you
right now, uh, who drawsincredible zombies by hand.
Um, and I don't know what theirarrangement is, but he clearly
(06:34):
made the choice to prioritizehuman art for his covers.
So there's lots of folks outthere doing it, and you can look
to them for inspiration.
SPEAKER_01 (06:42):
Yeah.
Um something I want to throw outthere too, uh, is that I know
that not everybody has like abudget for making a cover.
And you know, for for there's alot of people that like have
been longtime supporters of us,and you know, a lot like the the
trade option um that you werediscussing, the creative trade.
(07:04):
I forget what you said, butskill sharing.
Skill sharing.
You know, for I if if one isneeded and it can't be afforded,
I might be able to do something.
SPEAKER_00 (07:16):
Yeah.
And also people who are good atCanva, like another one that I
know was done by Canva asCatherine Al Breen's Rod the
Zombie Canva cover.
She did it herself.
Yeah.
And if you're like, I don't knowhow to use Canva, but there are
people who do and who can helpyou for very little money.
Me too.
My mom can use Canva.
What I don't want this to turninto is a million people asking
(07:36):
us for cover.
Or maybe that's what yousecretly that's our secret, our
secret agenda is to be big coverart.
I'm already too busy.
SPEAKER_01 (07:45):
That's the truth.
I gotta go get wood pelletsafter this.
I there's there's just too muchto do.
Yeah.
Um, so other people are standingup to um AI generative art.
Yeah, some might say that ourexplicit policy is is behind the
times.
It is.
Yeah.
It's true.
We haven't really said anythingabout it until now, with the
(08:06):
exception of um, I want to sayit was episode 47, our first
mini sode, uh, where weaddressed our own usage of AI in
our episode thumbnails.
Um, there was a period of timewhere I was making AI-generated
thumbnails because I I didn'tsee the harm in it.
(08:28):
Um, you know, I I wantedsomething that made our episodes
unique and different from eachother episode.
Um, and that was a fast and easyway to do it.
Uh, and somebody pointed it outto us, and it kind of sucked
that day to have it pointed outbecause these were things that I
(08:48):
was not proud of doing.
Um, and that was the day that wedecided, okay, we're not doing
that anymore.
And then Leah was like, I candraw little tiny chibi zombies,
and that would be cute.
So that's that's when wechanged.
Like we saw the error of ourways and we changed.
SPEAKER_00 (09:07):
Yeah.
And then I got a lot better atCanva.
I'm not gonna say I'm great atit, but like, and I don't have
time to draw a chibi set of artfor every single episode,
especially now that we're doingone every week.
Um, but through the magic ofCanva, we can usually pull
something basic together.
Uh, I don't think it's episode47, just as an aside, but we're
gonna do a full episode in early2026, probably out in February,
(09:30):
about the AI zombie.
Some might say Martha's notebookcalled It by Kurt Falster.
Uh, but we're gonna get into thethe depths of this discussion,
but for now I'll just saythere's an episode out there.
It's after episode 45.
I'm not quite sure when, butit's out there.
It's our first mini sode.
I don't think so.
(09:51):
Yeah, we're gonna disagree aboutthis.
Our first in mini sodes aboutwhen a car exploded.
Yeah.
You sure we talked about AI inthat one?
I think so.
Anyways, let's get back to it.
Let us know.
Let us know how wrong we are.
Yeah, we'll confirm our ownsource when we do the longer
episode.
Um, but let's get into someexamples of what we have seen
and the le and the leadershipthat we're following from
(10:11):
others.
First of all, uh, this summer,70, more than 70 authors signed
an open letter calling onpublishers not to accept
AI-generated covers or content.
Um that's pretty big.
Yeah.
Uh also this year, New Zealand'sPremier Literary Prize chose to
rule out two distinguishedauthors from New Zealand because
(10:32):
their authors included coverswith generated art.
Um, and so a new rule movingforward is that any book must
not contain AI-generatedmaterial, whether in text or
visual elements like cover art.
And that's just two examples.
Like, if you just Google AIgenerated art controversy,
you're gonna get so many.
SPEAKER_01 (10:51):
Yeah.
Um, also, this is something thatI've noticed in my own findings.
Like since 2023, around that eraera, uh when AI-generated art
started to become moreprevalent, um, the writing
community in places like Threadsand Blue Sky and Twitter and
Facebook and Reddit and uhliterally any other writing
(11:14):
forum or place where peoplediscuss writing.
This has been a conversation forthat long that um the vast
majority of authors are taking afirm stance against the use of
any generative AI, like whetherit's for the writing process,
the artwork, even some somepeople are even um critical of
(11:40):
use of promotional materialscreated by AI.
Um, and a lot of them are not uhsupportive of authors who do.
So when a book comes out thathas that's it's clear that like
part of it was written by AI orhas an AI cover, that tends to
be a pretty big scandal in thesewriting communities.
SPEAKER_00 (12:01):
Yeah.
So just a brief list of whyAI-generated covers are a
problem and our perspective,which we know some people are
going to listen to this anddisagree.
Is first of all, they aretrained on the work from artists
who weren't paid for their workor fairly.
So uh, for example, Shutterstockhas this veneer of ethics
because they claim to payartists for their own AI
(12:26):
generative work.
However, I did some digging intohow much they pay their artists.
And this is specifically forfolks who have contributed to
their AI generator.
This is not for individuallicensing of images that are not
AI that you can opt into.
Because again, in this day andage, you have to opt out of AI.
You have to make the choice.
Yeah.
You have to press a littletoggle button.
SPEAKER_01 (12:45):
And this is all kinds of artists.
These are people who createfont, these are people who draw
um elements, uh, these arepeople who make frames that go
around things, these are peoplethat take uh stock photography
of people and wildlife andlandscapes or submit paintings.
SPEAKER_00 (13:05):
Yeah.
So if you're an artist that ispart of the AI contributor group
for Shutterstock, uh the averagerevenue per image is 0.0078
cents.
Which is almost one cent.
Yeah.
Uh the average earnings that'sbeen self-reported from
(13:26):
Shutterstock AI contributor fundis about three dollars a year.
Per year.
Yes.
And artists who opted into thisdid that because they, you know,
and I feel it, and I know peoplewho feel it as fellow artists,
the pressure because they'retrying to survive.
But the outcome is that it'sactually not helping them
survive, and now their work isbeing used for nothing.
And so again, this is an exampleof where we are being duped as
(13:49):
people.
We are being told in everycorner and every direction that
AI is inevitable.
It's everywhere, we have to optout of it.
And then there's the veneer ofit being ethical, but you dig a
little bit under the surface andyou learn pretty quickly it's
not.
Um, it's undercuttingillustrators who are already
devalued and strugglefinancially.
Uh, I'm gonna give a shout outto Jason Strutz, who wrote uh
(14:10):
Returned, all hand illustratedand created by him.
Um, I want to support peoplelike Jason.
unknown (14:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (14:17):
Um, they shortcut creative labor and they remove
credit.
And they frankly remove the soulof humanity because what is
human like, what are we?
What is the thing that makes usdistinguish as humans?
I think it's art.
And we already in thiscapitalist hellscape undervalue
it so brutally.
This is not the time to to goten toes down on even further
(14:38):
undervaluing it.
SPEAKER_01 (14:39):
Yeah, this essentially makes it absolutely
worthless.
So any creative expression istherefore also worthless.
So, you know, you you mightthink that like maybe somebody
doesn't deserve to make a lot ofmoney by taking a a headshot and
uploading it to Shutterstock,but this includes musicians,
this includes people who makefilms, this includes actors,
(15:02):
voice actors, um, painters,sculptors.
SPEAKER_00 (15:07):
Yep, that's why the screenwriters guild, the actors'
guild all stood down, ten toesdown again against AI in their
most recent strikes.
Uh, and we need to stand withthem.
And I want to be clear again,this is not about shaming anyone
who's used AI.
I have used generative AI,putting my hand up right now.
Dan Az, we've already talkedabout that.
But many of us don't know theethics uh because, again, the
(15:29):
way that our world is designed,it is designed to uh make us
blind to the harm that thesekinds of things create.
So people like us are learningin real time what the impacts
are.
And there are so many things uhthat this is harmful for beyond
just human creators.
Uh, and so now that Dan and Ihave done our own thinking about
it, over many years ofprocessing this, we are choosing
(15:53):
community and art made by ourcommunity members over theft and
exploitation because we knowwe've done too we've done too
much reading, we just know theharm and we're not gonna
participate in it personallyanymore.
SPEAKER_01 (16:04):
Yeah, it's not a world I want to live in.
SPEAKER_00 (16:06):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (16:07):
So, Leah, what can listeners do to help support um
human artists?
SPEAKER_00 (16:14):
Well, you can follow your favorite cover artist,
check the inside of books youhave and see if there's a cover
artist credited and if they'vegot an Instagram page, a TikTok
page, whatever.
Follow them.
Yeah, we've we've mentioned acouple.
Yeah, buy a small piece of art.
I know most for most of us,original art uh is expensive.
We're all trying to survivehere, but just something small,
a sticker, would go a long way.
(16:35):
I say that as an artist myself.
Every time someone boughtsomething from my little uh
booth this weekend, whether itwas a dollar or fifty dollars, I
was stoked.
I was like, yes, you love mychicken sticker.
That makes my day.
Uh you can uh share or repostindie artists' work.
You can leave a glowing reviewfor a book that includes a
(16:57):
review of the human-made cover.
Uh, you can tip an artist.
You know, a lot of them willhave kofis um or other places
that you can send them somemoney.
Uh, and right now we're gonnalive up to our own word.
We're gonna give a shout outagain to cover artist Carl
Dahmer, who you can find atDahmerArt on Instagram.
And go get Ross Killy's book,Nightmare Jungle.
(17:17):
You can find Ross Killy at RossKilly underscore author, both of
them on Instagram, and thosewill be on the show notes.
It's some of the wildest artI've ever seen.
Yeah, it's really cool.
Uh and again, just to remind youall, this is just the beginning.
There's so much to say here.
It was actually very hard tokeep this short.
I'm not even sure if we have.
How many minutes are we in, Dan?
We're doing okay.
(17:38):
Okay, good.
Uh, we're gonna do a full deepdive episode on AI for February
or March.
We'll see, because real thingstake time.
Um, where we're gonna explorethe environmental harms,
artists' rights, and the futureof zombie storytelling.
We will bring in perspectivesfrom all kinds of folks,
artists, authors, environmentaljustice experts on things like
data centers.
Um, and we're gonna talk aboutin more detail what are the
(18:00):
alternatives to AI for indieauthors in this era?
Because again, so many thingsare making it feel and appear as
if it's impossible when inactuality, three years ago, we
didn't have this.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:12):
I mean, remove AI from the equation.
Digital art has never been moreaccessible than it is right now.
Yeah.
Literally, my mom can use Canva.
My mom has never done digitalart in her entire life, but she
has an Etsy store.
SPEAKER_00 (18:27):
Uh, although we don't know if the art on her
Etsy store is AI generated.
We don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (18:33):
I know some of it is my brother generated.
SPEAKER_00 (18:36):
Yes, that is true.
So, you know, um support theliving.
Read human.
Uh word what?
Read human.
Read human.
Okay, delete that.
No, I like it.
I'm leaving it in.
No.
Okay, well, human music.
Human music.
I mean, this is my I was sayingto Dan.
(18:56):
So I don't want to live in anepisode of Black Mirror.
Oh, God.
Where in a couple of months myum music streaming app title or
Cobaz, because fuck Spotify,sidebar, uh is filled with music
that is AI generated andsoulless.
I'm not interested in that.
I want music from real artists.
(19:17):
I want art from real artists, Iwant books that are generated
from the minds of real people.
And I want us to retain our soulas a species.
SPEAKER_01 (19:26):
Yeah, if you want to listen to soulless music, listen
to country.
SPEAKER_00 (19:30):
Well, listen to not all country.
You know, listen.
If you want to listen to soulfulcountry music, listen to Dolly
Parton.
Yes.
Dolly Parton.
You want some feelings.
You don't want AI Parton.
Oh my god, no, you don't.
That's just horrifying.
They can't replace Dolly.
I want to uh restate what wesaid at the beginning, which is
that we're growing people andwe're trusting our community to
(19:52):
grow with us.
We don't have a perfect policy,we don't have a um magical
ability to always knowsomething's AI or not.
We are specifically talkingabout that we are going to
prioritize authors who utilizecover art made by real artists.
And we're not out for blood oranything.
SPEAKER_01 (20:11):
We're not trying to expose anyone.
And I and I know that there'ssome people out there that do
have AI covers.
And I just want you to know thatthis doesn't mean that we think
less of you, but we do want youto reconsider that decision.
Um even if it maybe to youdoesn't look as good.
Um or it's more expensive.
(20:32):
Uh, because in the end, I thinkyou're going to be really glad
that you did, because one, it'suh it's going to be accepted by
the reading and writingcommunity.
So like by using an AI cover,you're actually shooting
yourself in the foot with alarge majority of people who
(20:52):
don't want to support people whouse this technology.
SPEAKER_00 (20:56):
Yeah.
But more importantly, pleasedon't forget that we ourselves
have been through this journey.
This is not a statement ofjudgment.
It is a statement of the worldwe want to live in.
And we are hoping that more andmore people join us in choosing
this as well.
And uh again, if you, last butnot least, if you are an author
who's not sure what to do, ifit's not AI, come chat with us
(21:18):
in the DMs.
As long as it's with positiveintent, that is going to be a
private conversation.
Again, we're not here toblacklist anybody.
We're not here to call names,we're not here to be mean or to
judge.
We know it's hard out there andit's complicated.
It's especially hard for artistsin every facet.
And we are choosing to valuevisual artists as much as we are
choosing to value the writingartists that create the books
(21:42):
and stories we love.
Uh, in February, you'll get thefull fleshed out thought process
of where we are at by thatpoint.
And for now, the end is nigh,hopefully, for AI.
Nice, Leah.
I can rhyme.
I do it all the time.
That rhyme was right on time.
(22:03):
That's great art.
Somebody's gonna put our face upand throw darts.
Probably.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:10):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (22:10):
Maybe AI AI darts.
They're not gonna actually printit out and and go get darts.
They're just gonna imagine itthrough the power of AI.
But thanks for listening,everyone.
Uh, and we'll see you next time.
Bye-bye.
Bye.
No.
Surprise.
Surprise.
Bonus episode.
It's a it's a bonus.
It's kind of an announcement.
SPEAKER_01 (00:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (00:26):
We love you.
SPEAKER_01 (00:27):
But it's unexpected.
Yeah.
For you, we knew we were doingthis for a while now.
Well, yeah, kind of, except wealso just decided to do it
today.
SPEAKER_00 (00:34):
Well, we true.
It's been building.
Um, we love you.
We are growing as people.
And as a horde.
And as a horde and a community.
And there's something importantthat we really think we need to
share with you now before 2026.
Um, we've been in deeperconversations behind the scenes
(00:55):
with a lot of awesome indieauthors, artists, readers, and
uh folks whose work we feature.
And a really clear messageemerged.
And honestly, it's not one thatwe weren't aware of.
It's just now we're ready tomake a clear policy statement.
Um but what we heard is thatamidst what feels like a tsunami
of generative AI that is gettinguh violently shoved into our eye
(01:18):
holes every day.
My eye holes, uh, our book clubis here to expressly support
human-generated art and writing.
And the too long don't listen ofthis episode, although please
hear us out to the end, becauselike all topics, there is nuance
here.
We believe that books belong topeople, real authors and real
artists, not AI.
(01:39):
And our mission is to celebratehuman creativity now before it's
erased.
SPEAKER_01 (01:43):
Please don't erase my creativity.
I'm having a hard enough time asit is.
Well, that's when I just pressthe back button and delete you
right now.
Control Z.
Yeah.
So why are we talking about thisnow?
Um, the uh the conversationaround AI and publishing is
happening as we speak.
It's been happening for a while,but it's really ramping up right
(02:08):
now.
Um, more creators are facing thepressure to uh use AI to cut
costs or keep up.
And we want to help shape afuture that celebrates human
creativity.
SPEAKER_00 (02:19):
Yeah.
We want uh we don't believe thatgenerative AI is the inevitable
outcome for art.
SPEAKER_01 (02:27):
Yeah.
For for a lot of people it feelsthat way.
Um, but we we don't think weneed it to take over every facet
of our creativity.
And every corner.
And every corner just becauseit's cheap and easy.
SPEAKER_00 (02:41):
Yeah, and it's actually not cheap or easy.
That's just how corporationswant us to feel right now.
They want us to feel like it'sinevitable because they're
hoping that they're gonna make alot more money off of us.
SPEAKER_01 (02:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:51):
Look up the AI bubble burst.
SPEAKER_01 (02:53):
Yeah.
Um, so we just want ourlisteners to be informed before
harmful norms take root.
Kind of like a zombie infection.
SPEAKER_00 (03:04):
Yeah.
Some might say it's too late.
The infection has spread.
But what we're saying is in ourlittle corner of the internet
universe, this is a safe zone.
SPEAKER_01 (03:13):
It's an AI safe zone.
Yeah.
So we have a new policy that'sgoing to center human creators
first.
You can even call it the humancreators first policy.
It kind of sounds like we'relike trying to pass a bill or
something.
I mean, that has been part of myprevious job, so there might be
some influence here.
(03:35):
Um we're prioritizinginterviewing authors who write
their own stories and utilizehuman-created cover art.
And why, you might ask, isbecause we want a future where
creators can still pay the rent.
Um maybe even own a home.
Gas.
That's crazy uh no.
(03:55):
We don't want creators withhomes.
We want homeless creatorsbecause that makes them hungry
and that makes their art better.
SPEAKER_00 (04:01):
Yeah.
And so when we're talking tofolks about who we're going to
be interviewing, we're justgoing to ask if AI has been used
and inform them gently that ifit has, then this is uh a book
club that that focuses primarilyon authors that don't use it.
And it's not a a judgment call.
Your choice to use AI,generative AI specifically, is
your choice.
Uh, and it's our choice what whowe and what we feature on this
(04:23):
podcast.
And if you're listening to thisand you're like, oh, I am an AI
author, and like this makes meuncomfortable or my feelings are
hurt, or how, what do I dowithout AI?
I don't even have anotheroption.
I can't afford things.
I know that in the last fewyears it's come to really feel
that way because of how muchwe've been bombarded with
AI-generated art and the ease ofpressing buttons to make it
(04:45):
happen.
And we have so many amazingexamples of indie authors who
are scrappily putting togetherreally beautiful cover art and
collaborating with artists anddoing all kinds of things to
make that possible.
And so if you are somebody whoright now is in that oh crap
moment, um you are welcome to DMus and we're happy to provide
you some suggestions if you'reopen to them.
SPEAKER_01 (05:07):
Yeah.
Did you know that I'm a coverartist?
SPEAKER_00 (05:09):
Yeah, this entire policy is really about getting
Dan business.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:14):
That's how we're doing it.
Actually, I've I have zero, zerobusiness um because my career as
a cover artist ended before iteven started.
Because I I'm I'm gonna say thatAI probably had something to do
with it.
SPEAKER_00 (05:29):
Yeah, for sure.
Which wasn't really encouragingto even try.
The other thing is like I'veheard lots of really great
examples of people doing likecreative trades in exchange for
art using stock art that is hasthe no AI button pressed,
because you gotta do thatnowadays.
Yeah.
Um, because they want you to optin without thinking about it.
You have to intentionally optout.
Um, and like you all know, Ihave my silly little chibis
(05:51):
zombies.
Maybe you want a chibi zombie.
These are things that we'd behappy to talk about with you.
But we're I'm not making thepoint that Dan and I are your
one-stop shop as an alternativefor the AI.
I can't make everyone's coverart.
Um, I'm gonna give Alice B.
Sullivan a shout-out right now.
Go check out her covers.
She has a strict no AI coverpolicy, and she has great
covers.
(06:12):
And she's just one of many.
I'll give another shout-out.
Ross Killey author.
Uh, worked for worked with umDahmer art, and no, not the one
you're thinking of.
It's really this person's lastname.
Nothing to do with the other onethat may be occurring to you
right now, uh, who drawsincredible zombies by hand.
Um, and I don't know what theirarrangement is, but he clearly
(06:34):
made the choice to prioritizehuman art for his covers.
So there's lots of folks outthere doing it, and you can look
to them for inspiration.
SPEAKER_01 (06:42):
Yeah.
Um something I want to throw outthere too, uh, is that I know
that not everybody has like abudget for making a cover.
And you know, for for there's alot of people that like have
been longtime supporters of us,and you know, a lot like the the
trade option um that you werediscussing, the creative trade.
(07:04):
I forget what you said, butskill sharing.
Skill sharing.
You know, for I if if one isneeded and it can't be afforded,
I might be able to do something.
SPEAKER_00 (07:16):
Yeah.
And also people who are good atCanva, like another one that I
know was done by Canva asCatherine Al Breen's Rod the
Zombie Canva cover.
She did it herself.
Yeah.
And if you're like, I don't knowhow to use Canva, but there are
people who do and who can helpyou for very little money.
Me too.
My mom can use Canva.
What I don't want this to turninto is a million people asking
(07:36):
us for cover.
Or maybe that's what yousecretly that's our secret, our
secret agenda is to be big coverart.
I'm already too busy.
SPEAKER_01 (07:45):
That's the truth.
I gotta go get wood pelletsafter this.
I there's there's just too muchto do.
Yeah.
Um, so other people are standingup to um AI generative art.
Yeah, some might say that ourexplicit policy is is behind the
times.
It is.
Yeah.
It's true.
We haven't really said anythingabout it until now, with the
(08:06):
exception of um, I want to sayit was episode 47, our first
mini sode, uh, where weaddressed our own usage of AI in
our episode thumbnails.
Um, there was a period of timewhere I was making AI-generated
thumbnails because I I didn'tsee the harm in it.
(08:28):
Um, you know, I I wantedsomething that made our episodes
unique and different from eachother episode.
Um, and that was a fast and easyway to do it.
Uh, and somebody pointed it outto us, and it kind of sucked
that day to have it pointed outbecause these were things that I
(08:48):
was not proud of doing.
Um, and that was the day that wedecided, okay, we're not doing
that anymore.
And then Leah was like, I candraw little tiny chibi zombies,
and that would be cute.
So that's that's when wechanged.
Like we saw the error of ourways and we changed.
SPEAKER_00 (09:07):
Yeah.
And then I got a lot better atCanva.
I'm not gonna say I'm great atit, but like, and I don't have
time to draw a chibi set of artfor every single episode,
especially now that we're doingone every week.
Um, but through the magic ofCanva, we can usually pull
something basic together.
Uh, I don't think it's episode47, just as an aside, but we're
gonna do a full episode in early2026, probably out in February,
(09:30):
about the AI zombie.
Some might say Martha's notebookcalled It by Kurt Falster.
Uh, but we're gonna get into thethe depths of this discussion,
but for now I'll just saythere's an episode out there.
It's after episode 45.
I'm not quite sure when, butit's out there.
It's our first mini sode.
I don't think so.
(09:51):
Yeah, we're gonna disagree aboutthis.
Our first in mini sodes aboutwhen a car exploded.
Yeah.
You sure we talked about AI inthat one?
I think so.
Anyways, let's get back to it.
Let us know.
Let us know how wrong we are.
Yeah, we'll confirm our ownsource when we do the longer
episode.
Um, but let's get into someexamples of what we have seen
and the le and the leadershipthat we're following from
(10:11):
others.
First of all, uh, this summer,70, more than 70 authors signed
an open letter calling onpublishers not to accept
AI-generated covers or content.
Um that's pretty big.
Yeah.
Uh also this year, New Zealand'sPremier Literary Prize chose to
rule out two distinguishedauthors from New Zealand because
(10:32):
their authors included coverswith generated art.
Um, and so a new rule movingforward is that any book must
not contain AI-generatedmaterial, whether in text or
visual elements like cover art.
And that's just two examples.
Like, if you just Google AIgenerated art controversy,
you're gonna get so many.
SPEAKER_01 (10:51):
Yeah.
Um, also, this is something thatI've noticed in my own findings.
Like since 2023, around that eraera, uh when AI-generated art
started to become moreprevalent, um, the writing
community in places like Threadsand Blue Sky and Twitter and
Facebook and Reddit and uhliterally any other writing
(11:14):
forum or place where peoplediscuss writing.
This has been a conversation forthat long that um the vast
majority of authors are taking afirm stance against the use of
any generative AI, like whetherit's for the writing process,
the artwork, even some somepeople are even um critical of
(11:40):
use of promotional materialscreated by AI.
Um, and a lot of them are not uhsupportive of authors who do.
So when a book comes out thathas that's it's clear that like
part of it was written by AI orhas an AI cover, that tends to
be a pretty big scandal in thesewriting communities.
SPEAKER_00 (12:01):
Yeah.
So just a brief list of whyAI-generated covers are a
problem and our perspective,which we know some people are
going to listen to this anddisagree.
Is first of all, they aretrained on the work from artists
who weren't paid for their workor fairly.
So uh, for example, Shutterstockhas this veneer of ethics
because they claim to payartists for their own AI
(12:26):
generative work.
However, I did some digging intohow much they pay their artists.
And this is specifically forfolks who have contributed to
their AI generator.
This is not for individuallicensing of images that are not
AI that you can opt into.
Because again, in this day andage, you have to opt out of AI.
You have to make the choice.
Yeah.
You have to press a littletoggle button.
SPEAKER_01 (12:45):
And this is all kinds of artists.
These are people who createfont, these are people who draw
um elements, uh, these arepeople who make frames that go
around things, these are peoplethat take uh stock photography
of people and wildlife andlandscapes or submit paintings.
SPEAKER_00 (13:05):
Yeah.
So if you're an artist that ispart of the AI contributor group
for Shutterstock, uh the averagerevenue per image is 0.0078
cents.
Which is almost one cent.
Yeah.
Uh the average earnings that'sbeen self-reported from
(13:26):
Shutterstock AI contributor fundis about three dollars a year.
Per year.
Yes.
And artists who opted into thisdid that because they, you know,
and I feel it, and I know peoplewho feel it as fellow artists,
the pressure because they'retrying to survive.
But the outcome is that it'sactually not helping them
survive, and now their work isbeing used for nothing.
And so again, this is an exampleof where we are being duped as
(13:49):
people.
We are being told in everycorner and every direction that
AI is inevitable.
It's everywhere, we have to optout of it.
And then there's the veneer ofit being ethical, but you dig a
little bit under the surface andyou learn pretty quickly it's
not.
Um, it's undercuttingillustrators who are already
devalued and strugglefinancially.
Uh, I'm gonna give a shout outto Jason Strutz, who wrote uh
(14:10):
Returned, all hand illustratedand created by him.
Um, I want to support peoplelike Jason.
unknown (14:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (14:17):
Um, they shortcut creative labor and they remove
credit.
And they frankly remove the soulof humanity because what is
human like, what are we?
What is the thing that makes usdistinguish as humans?
I think it's art.
And we already in thiscapitalist hellscape undervalue
it so brutally.
This is not the time to to goten toes down on even further
(14:38):
undervaluing it.
SPEAKER_01 (14:39):
Yeah, this essentially makes it absolutely
worthless.
So any creative expression istherefore also worthless.
So, you know, you you mightthink that like maybe somebody
doesn't deserve to make a lot ofmoney by taking a a headshot and
uploading it to Shutterstock,but this includes musicians,
this includes people who makefilms, this includes actors,
(15:02):
voice actors, um, painters,sculptors.
SPEAKER_00 (15:07):
Yep, that's why the screenwriters guild, the actors'
guild all stood down, ten toesdown again against AI in their
most recent strikes.
Uh, and we need to stand withthem.
And I want to be clear again,this is not about shaming anyone
who's used AI.
I have used generative AI,putting my hand up right now.
Dan Az, we've already talkedabout that.
But many of us don't know theethics uh because, again, the
(15:29):
way that our world is designed,it is designed to uh make us
blind to the harm that thesekinds of things create.
So people like us are learningin real time what the impacts
are.
And there are so many things uhthat this is harmful for beyond
just human creators.
Uh, and so now that Dan and Ihave done our own thinking about
it, over many years ofprocessing this, we are choosing
(15:53):
community and art made by ourcommunity members over theft and
exploitation because we knowwe've done too we've done too
much reading, we just know theharm and we're not gonna
participate in it personallyanymore.
SPEAKER_01 (16:04):
Yeah, it's not a world I want to live in.
SPEAKER_00 (16:06):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (16:07):
So, Leah, what can listeners do to help support um
human artists?
SPEAKER_00 (16:14):
Well, you can follow your favorite cover artist,
check the inside of books youhave and see if there's a cover
artist credited and if they'vegot an Instagram page, a TikTok
page, whatever.
Follow them.
Yeah, we've we've mentioned acouple.
Yeah, buy a small piece of art.
I know most for most of us,original art uh is expensive.
We're all trying to survivehere, but just something small,
a sticker, would go a long way.
(16:35):
I say that as an artist myself.
Every time someone boughtsomething from my little uh
booth this weekend, whether itwas a dollar or fifty dollars, I
was stoked.
I was like, yes, you love mychicken sticker.
That makes my day.
Uh you can uh share or repostindie artists' work.
You can leave a glowing reviewfor a book that includes a
(16:57):
review of the human-made cover.
Uh, you can tip an artist.
You know, a lot of them willhave kofis um or other places
that you can send them somemoney.
Uh, and right now we're gonnalive up to our own word.
We're gonna give a shout outagain to cover artist Carl
Dahmer, who you can find atDahmerArt on Instagram.
And go get Ross Killy's book,Nightmare Jungle.
(17:17):
You can find Ross Killy at RossKilly underscore author, both of
them on Instagram, and thosewill be on the show notes.
It's some of the wildest artI've ever seen.
Yeah, it's really cool.
Uh and again, just to remind youall, this is just the beginning.
There's so much to say here.
It was actually very hard tokeep this short.
I'm not even sure if we have.
How many minutes are we in, Dan?
We're doing okay.
(17:38):
Okay, good.
Uh, we're gonna do a full deepdive episode on AI for February
or March.
We'll see, because real thingstake time.
Um, where we're gonna explorethe environmental harms,
artists' rights, and the futureof zombie storytelling.
We will bring in perspectivesfrom all kinds of folks,
artists, authors, environmentaljustice experts on things like
data centers.
Um, and we're gonna talk aboutin more detail what are the
(18:00):
alternatives to AI for indieauthors in this era?
Because again, so many thingsare making it feel and appear as
if it's impossible when inactuality, three years ago, we
didn't have this.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:12):
I mean, remove AI from the equation.
Digital art has never been moreaccessible than it is right now.
Yeah.
Literally, my mom can use Canva.
My mom has never done digitalart in her entire life, but she
has an Etsy store.
SPEAKER_00 (18:27):
Uh, although we don't know if the art on her
Etsy store is AI generated.
We don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (18:33):
I know some of it is my brother generated.
SPEAKER_00 (18:36):
Yes, that is true.
So, you know, um support theliving.
Read human.
Uh word what?
Read human.
Read human.
Okay, delete that.
No, I like it.
I'm leaving it in.
No.
Okay, well, human music.
Human music.
I mean, this is my I was sayingto Dan.
(18:56):
So I don't want to live in anepisode of Black Mirror.
Oh, God.
Where in a couple of months myum music streaming app title or
Cobaz, because fuck Spotify,sidebar, uh is filled with music
that is AI generated andsoulless.
I'm not interested in that.
I want music from real artists.
(19:17):
I want art from real artists, Iwant books that are generated
from the minds of real people.
And I want us to retain our soulas a species.
SPEAKER_01 (19:26):
Yeah, if you want to listen to soulless music, listen
to country.
SPEAKER_00 (19:30):
Well, listen to not all country.
You know, listen.
If you want to listen to soulfulcountry music, listen to Dolly
Parton.
Yes.
Dolly Parton.
You want some feelings.
You don't want AI Parton.
Oh my god, no, you don't.
That's just horrifying.
They can't replace Dolly.
I want to uh restate what wesaid at the beginning, which is
that we're growing people andwe're trusting our community to
(19:52):
grow with us.
We don't have a perfect policy,we don't have a um magical
ability to always knowsomething's AI or not.
We are specifically talkingabout that we are going to
prioritize authors who utilizecover art made by real artists.
And we're not out for blood oranything.
SPEAKER_01 (20:11):
We're not trying to expose anyone.
And I and I know that there'ssome people out there that do
have AI covers.
And I just want you to know thatthis doesn't mean that we think
less of you, but we do want youto reconsider that decision.
Um even if it maybe to youdoesn't look as good.
Um or it's more expensive.
(20:32):
Uh, because in the end, I thinkyou're going to be really glad
that you did, because one, it'suh it's going to be accepted by
the reading and writingcommunity.
So like by using an AI cover,you're actually shooting
yourself in the foot with alarge majority of people who
(20:52):
don't want to support people whouse this technology.
SPEAKER_00 (20:56):
Yeah.
But more importantly, pleasedon't forget that we ourselves
have been through this journey.
This is not a statement ofjudgment.
It is a statement of the worldwe want to live in.
And we are hoping that more andmore people join us in choosing
this as well.
And uh again, if you, last butnot least, if you are an author
who's not sure what to do, ifit's not AI, come chat with us
(21:18):
in the DMs.
As long as it's with positiveintent, that is going to be a
private conversation.
Again, we're not here toblacklist anybody.
We're not here to call names,we're not here to be mean or to
judge.
We know it's hard out there andit's complicated.
It's especially hard for artistsin every facet.
And we are choosing to valuevisual artists as much as we are
choosing to value the writingartists that create the books
(21:42):
and stories we love.
Uh, in February, you'll get thefull fleshed out thought process
of where we are at by thatpoint.
And for now, the end is nigh,hopefully, for AI.
Nice, Leah.
I can rhyme.
I do it all the time.
That rhyme was right on time.
(22:03):
That's great art.
Somebody's gonna put our face upand throw darts.
Probably.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:10):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (22:10):
Maybe AI AI darts.
They're not gonna actually printit out and and go get darts.
They're just gonna imagine itthrough the power of AI.
But thanks for listening,everyone.
Uh, and we'll see you next time.
Bye-bye.
Bye.
No.
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