Talking about Eugene (From TWD) with Jack Callaghan | Zombie Book Club Ep 128 - Zombie Book Club

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_07 (00:00):
I feel like I need a bean joke in this entry intro.

SPEAKER_04 (00:04):
No, don't worry, there's bean jokes.
I've got them.

SPEAKER_00 (00:06):
Perfect.
Okay.
How have you been?

SPEAKER_01 (00:30):
The only book club where the book is a
neurodivergent coward with amullet.
I'm Dan, and when I'm notgrowing a mullet, I'm writing a
book about the zombieapocalypse, and I will tell you
more, but I'm having anexceptionally uncreative day
today.

SPEAKER_07 (00:42):
And I'm Leah, and I feel required to say right off
the top that the neurodivergentcoward with a mullet is not our
guest Jack Callahan that we'retalking about.
It is Eugene from The WalkingDead.
No mullet here.
Yeah, Jack actually has verynice hair.
I won't describe it to youbecause his identity is top
secret, but it's quite lovely.
Jack is, as many of you know,one of our zombie besties back

(01:04):
on the show with us.
He's a fan favorite from thelast two Zombie Wien game shows,
and is, of course, always alsoknown amongst our community for
his kick-ass novel, Zombie Nerdand the Half-Turn Heroing.
But today we are here to talkabout the neurodivergent coward
with a mullet, Eugene, who isJack's favorite character on The
Walking Dead, and get a sneakpeek into his upcoming book,

(01:26):
Weird Water.
Welcome to the show, Jack.
Glad to have you back.

SPEAKER_04 (01:29):
Thank you.
I'm really, really happy to behere.

SPEAKER_07 (01:32):
It is always a pleasure.
I feel very privileged.
We get to see Jack's full face,just so everybody knows.

SPEAKER_01 (01:38):
Well, now the the word is out that we have the top
secret access.
From the underground bunker.
Yeah, yeah.
Which is a security.

SPEAKER_04 (01:48):
Yeah, you get to see the face and the hair.
As you said, the hair is gettingvery long at the moment, but uh
well.

SPEAKER_07 (01:55):
It's beautiful.
Dan's hair, he's growing hisout.
And I was actually saying todaythat because he's just growing
the top out, it's the oppositeof a mullet.
Yeah.
I have a reverse mullet.
And I think it's time for him toI feel like you should take
inspo from Jack.

SPEAKER_01 (02:07):
Yeah, just grow all of it.
Yeah.
I I think I think I have like afamily trait that makes the hair
on the side of my head grow moreor at least grow out more.
Um, my grandfather was uh aperson that like went bald at
like 17, and so were my uncles.
And that was the only place thatthey grew hair was on the sides

(02:27):
of their heads.
So it's kind of like a traumaresponse that I keep the hair on
the sides of my head reallyshort and the top long because
I'm like, look at look at whatI'm able to do.
Yeah, Jack's just mocking youover here with his glorious
thick hair.

SPEAKER_04 (02:43):
Mine is un both undercut and straightened as
well.
So, you know, it did uh uhnobody else can see it, but uh
from what you're seeing, it'snot natural.
This uh I do have to get the oldheating pongs out to do this.

SPEAKER_07 (02:57):
You have to maintain the illusion, Jack.
It's you have curly hair likeme.

SPEAKER_04 (03:02):
Yeah, mine though if if I just let mine do what it
wants, it has a big uh a bigkink at the bottom.
Oh.
And um sorry.
I actually when I when I firststarted growing it out and it
and it got to sort of like to myshoulders and then started doing
that sort of kinky thing to it.
Um I wasn't really that happy.

(03:23):
Yeah, well no, I wasn't thathappy with it, but then I ended
up watching a a video of theband Genesis from maybe I think
it was like 1974, and a veryyoung Peter Gabriel, um, his
hair sort of did the same thingthat mine did as well.
So I was thinking if PeterGabriel can pull it off, then I
can as well.

(03:44):
But but no, I I I do straightenit as well.

SPEAKER_07 (03:48):
Well, it's working for you.
I love it.
Oh, a blue tie, too.
I'm just getting a little bitmore of the outfit here.
And a blue tie.
Wow, you dressed up for us.
I'm in a hoodie.
I did.
I did.
Thank you.
Well, we always dress up for youguys.
Oh, we don't, but thank you.

SPEAKER_00 (04:03):
Um We're not even wearing clothes.

SPEAKER_01 (04:06):
That's not true.
Don't listen to this man.
That's why my camera's off.

SPEAKER_07 (04:10):
We have two rapid fire questions for you, Jack.
They're not the typical onesbecause you've already been
through the initiation.
Uh, a couple episodes ago, wetalked about what people's role
would be in the zombieapocalypse, and we'd love to
hear from you.
What role would you play in thezombie apocalypse?

SPEAKER_04 (04:24):
Well, um, I looked at the the the chart that you
sent me of those uh of thevarious roles, and um I don't
think that I'd want to be any ofthem.
Of course you wouldn't.
I'm not I'm not the biggest fanof categorization, the you know,
the Myers-Briggs stuff and theKinsey scale, it's all rubbish.

(04:45):
Uh I don't see why people are sowilling to objectively quantify
themselves these days.
You know, everyone needs to havean acronym and a flag and a and
a specific word which tells themwhat they are.
But um, I suppose if I had tochoose You do it, yeah, it'd be
a combination between a guideand a weaver.

(05:07):
Uh I am essentially a softcoresociopath, uh, which which
shares a lot of common elementswith those roles.
So I mean, you know, I may aswell put them together.
Uh if I can't guide and weave,then I'll manipulate and
deceive.
They're technically the samething.

SPEAKER_01 (05:25):
The dark side of that.
Like, you know, we think wethink about those roles in only
good ways, but there's not likea flip side to those things.

SPEAKER_07 (05:32):
Absolutely.
And I actually just took acourse in these roles.
You'll be relieved to hear,Jack, that it's not about it you
just picking one as if it's you.
It's more about like in thecontext, in the environment
you're in, which one makes sensefor you in the moment.
Does that make you hate it less?

SPEAKER_04 (05:46):
No, it does make me hate it less.
Let's not forget, let's notforget you're talking to a man
who literally wears a mask.

SPEAKER_07 (05:56):
It's true.
Well, my next rapid firequestion, um, I'm really hoping
for something special here.
You mentioned when we wereplanning for this episode that
you had a temptation to discusspost-humanism.
Dan and I don't know what thisis.
So could you please explain tous and the the audience, as if
we are toddlers in a toddlervoice, what is post-humanism?

(06:17):
The toddler voice is veryimportant.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (06:21):
I don't really want to talk about post-humanism, and
I'm certainly not doing atoddler voice.
Let's just say uh post-humanismis something which I foolishly
mentioned in our messages beforethis episode, and I really wish
that happened.
It it was something which Ibecame very interested in while

(06:43):
I was at university to the pointthat I chose to write my
dissertation thesis on it, andit melt it melted my brain so
badly that it prevented me fromreading the works of one of my
favorite authors for the betterbetter part of a decade.
Um Posthumanism concerns thesocial, philosophical, and

(07:04):
ethical conundrums behindhumanities relationships with
technology.
Next question, please.
Wow.

SPEAKER_01 (07:11):
Um, I have a very important follow-up to this
question.

SPEAKER_07 (07:14):
Uh a toddler wouldn't understand that answer,
but you already said you weren'tgoing to do that for us.
So I respect your boundary,Jack.
Um, follow-up to that question.

SPEAKER_01 (07:24):
Is there a ghost at the top of your stairs?

SPEAKER_04 (07:27):
You've seen the picture, have you?
Uh no, uh no, there is not.
There's so far, there's not beena ghost at the top of my stairs.
I'm very worried that there'sgoing to be.
That has nothing to do withposthumanism.

SPEAKER_01 (07:39):
I think it does.
My understanding ofpost-humanism is that there
might be a ghost at the top ofyour stairs.

SPEAKER_07 (07:45):
There also could be aliens hiding in the bushes.

SPEAKER_04 (07:48):
In the bushes as well.
No, uh that that's completelyunrelated, but no, I don't like
looking at the top of thosestairs because I'm worried that
there's going to be a ghost upthere.

SPEAKER_07 (07:56):
Do you mind sharing the backstory for those of our
listeners who are like, what theheck is going on?
Why are we talking about aliensin the bushes and ghosts on the
top of the stairs, Jack?

SPEAKER_04 (08:06):
Well, no, what when what when I come in into my
house, the building that myhouse is into, is is in, um, I
have to walk by a big set ofstairs.
And at the top of them, there'sa window, so there's just a
little bit of light coming in.
So when I walk by it, I alwaysthink that I'm going to look up

(08:26):
and see a ghost there.
So what I've started doing is asI go to my to my front door, I
look down and and and just walkback, walk by it as quick as I
can.
You know, look at it.
I don't want to look up.
Yeah, I don't want to look upthere and see a ghost.
But then it it makes me worry,like, um if I looked up and saw
a ghost, then that would be onething.
But maybe if I'm just going byand just walking, every time

(08:49):
that I walk by and don't lookup, maybe the ghost is already
up there.

SPEAKER_06 (08:54):
So maybe I should look.

SPEAKER_04 (08:56):
Yeah, so I don't know.
And the thing with the with thealiens was um uh when I used to
live back at home with mymother, um instead of going
upstairs to wake her to go anduse the bathroom, I used to go
into the garden and do and do awee in the back garden.
But then I saw a really uh areally scary photo that had like

(09:19):
an alien hand poking from aroundaround a tree.
And so when I was out there likedoing a wee, I'd look at the
trees in our garden.
There were a lot of trees, therewas four of them, and I'd sort
of be stood there weing andthink like there could be an
alien behind what wanted tohurry up, hurry up, hurry up,
hurry up, and I'd do that thing,you know, when you push your

(09:40):
diaphragm really hard and youyou have to wee harder than you
want to.
Like, come on, come on, come on,come on, come on, let's go back
inside.
And I'm nearly 40.
I turn 38 in two weeks, and I amterrified of seeing ghosts, and
I'm terrified of seeing alienshiding behind trees while I'm
trying to wee.

SPEAKER_07 (10:04):
Jack, I have a I have a clarifying question.
How old were you when you wereliving with your mom?
I d I I lived with my mothertwice.

SPEAKER_04 (10:12):
Uh once until I was obviously well while I was a
child.
I went I went away to universitywhen I was in my early 20s.
I came back when I was about 26,and that was when I started skip
being scared about alien.
I was 26.

SPEAKER_01 (10:29):
I was thinking to myself, this is the post
post-humanism.

SPEAKER_04 (10:34):
After your brain had melted from well, after my
brain, yeah, maybe the brainmelting had something to do with
it, but I was like, I don't wantto go upstairs and like wait,
you know, wake my mum up bygoing to the toilet, so I'll go
downstairs and pee in the backgarden.
But now I don't want to pee inthe back garden because there
might be aliens in there.
I was absolutely stuck.

SPEAKER_01 (10:55):
So yeah, you just hold it till morning because
there's no aliens outside whenit's light out.
And of course, everybody knowsthat ghosts um aren't around in
the daytime.

SPEAKER_07 (11:05):
I was gonna say, you could just put a night light up
there and then you wouldn't haveto know the ghosts aren't gonna
hang out where it's bright.

SPEAKER_04 (11:10):
We all know.
I didn't think about that at thetime.

SPEAKER_01 (11:15):
Good hindsight, Leah.

SPEAKER_07 (11:17):
So it's been a while since we've seen you.
I guess a couple months nowsince we recorded Zombie Wien
2025, and you were so close,like razor hair, edge, from
getting the Zombesties ChoiceAward, just so you know, Jack.
Uh Lori Calcatera won that.
Sylvester Barzi is our reigningZombie Wien king.
How does it feel?
How have you been since you lostyour chance at a Bean Crown?

SPEAKER_04 (11:38):
I have been annoyed.
I still think that those gameswere rigged both times.
I was sat there thinking, like,I I uh I understand that my
improv skills are woefully bad,but why do I keep getting pitted
against people whose improvskills seem to be amazingly
good?

(12:00):
Yeah, I've never been I've neverbeen good at thinking on the
spot.
I'm a planner, I'm a uh I mean,text messages that I send to my
family, they go through threedrafts before I send them.
But but uh but still, but still,even even though I lost both of
them, I am the bean king, ifonly in my own mind, the Baron
of Beans, the Lord of Legumes,the Prince of Pulses.

(12:22):
Um these these are titles whichcannot be usurped from me
because I can't imagine thatanyone would want them.

SPEAKER_07 (12:30):
I might compete because I also love beans.
And and the Prince of Pulses ispretty great.

SPEAKER_04 (12:35):
But no, no, no, I had a lot, I had a lot of fun on
those shows.
Taking part was more fun thanwinning.

SPEAKER_01 (12:43):
Um it's very um magnanimous of you.
When when we're just talkingnumbers, like if it weren't for
the daily double, I I think youactually earned more points than
everyone probably combined.
Most people just got theirpoints from taking them from
you.
Ask Ollie, Dan.
Beans.

(13:03):
Sorry.

SPEAKER_04 (13:04):
Ask Ollie, he'll back you up.
Ollie says that I that I wascheated.
He said it both times.

SPEAKER_01 (13:11):
Ollie is nothing if not reliable.
It's true.
You can always trust Ollie attheir word.
Yeah.
I think you would have had abetter chance if you didn't give
up at the very end.
That really threw a wrench init.
I would really like to see youreceive your bean crown.

(13:32):
Um, and I think it could happenone day.
I I think that you don't giveyourself enough credit.
Your your your improv it'sdifferent.
It's different from standardimprov.
It's like a different kind ofimprov, where it's less like I
it's less like uh slapsticky andmore like um you're you're

(13:54):
you're letting your personalityout, and that personality is the
thing that meshes with themoment so well.
Soft core sociopath.
Yeah, that's that's the one.

SPEAKER_04 (14:05):
Yeah, but is is that is that your way of saying that
I'm I'm terrible?

SPEAKER_01 (14:10):
No, I'm saying next time don't give up at the end.

SPEAKER_07 (14:14):
It's true.
It is a pattern because thefirst zombie wane that you
participated in, you also gaveup at the end, Jack.

SPEAKER_04 (14:19):
I'm too I'm I get beaten too easily.
That's my own problem.

SPEAKER_07 (14:24):
I feel like this is a terrible segue to ask you
about what happened with zombienerd and the halfway harrowing.
Half not halfway harrowingharrowing.
Halfway out.

SPEAKER_04 (14:32):
You don't even know the title of it.

SPEAKER_07 (14:34):
No, I have a legitimate disability called
dysnomia.
Look it up.
Verbs, not verbs.
I even got it wrong.
It's nouns, not verbs.
Yeah, Leah also can't be inclass.
The zombie nerd and thehalf-term harrowing.
What happened with that?
We love this book.

SPEAKER_04 (14:52):
Um, I am no longer contractually obligated to not
say bad things about thatpublishing company.
Uh, but I'm still not going to.

SPEAKER_07 (15:05):
Damn it.

SPEAKER_04 (15:06):
That's probably for the best.

SPEAKER_07 (15:07):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (15:07):
Yeah.
Let's just say that it it didn'twork out.
It's a shame because um I workedreally hard on those books.
Um, if I put together everythingthat I've written, it's getting
close to half a million words,and only the first fifth of that
ever saw, you know, the light ofday.

(15:28):
Uh I'm trying not to be overlydisheartened by the whole
ordeal.
You know, I learned a lot, uh, Imade a lot of connections, of
you, you know, your good selvesincluded.
Um the response that I got fromthe first book was
overwhelmingly positive.
Uh not one person who read itsaid that they didn't like it.

(15:49):
Um at the end of the day, it wasa big sort of confidence thing,
if anything.
Uh I suffer from a lingeringfear that I'm actually rubbish
but just don't know it.
So so to have such a a positiveresponse to something that I've
written really gave me a bigboost to continue, even even

(16:10):
though it was only a you know asmall part of my journey.

SPEAKER_01 (16:14):
I think that's an important thing for people to
hear too, because uh you know,what you're feeling is is not
uncommon, especially amongwriters.
Like I feel like every writerI've ever talked to with a a
very slim amount of people thataren't like this, uh have those
moments where they're like,everything that I'm doing is

(16:36):
awful and I need to give up.
Yeah, it it does.

SPEAKER_04 (16:40):
It's um I I I've never been a big understander of
people who say that they sufferfrom um or what's it called?
Um imposter syndrome?
Yeah, imposter syndrome.
Um I don't suffer from impostersyndrome um because uh uh this
is the only thing that I knowhow to do.

(17:01):
It's uh I only feel like animposter when I try to do
everything else, you know.
Um so uh w when I think about mymy writing and the stuff that I
that I want to give across topeople when they when they enjoy
it, I see that as a reallyreally like I say, a really big
confidence booster.

(17:21):
And I don't worry about um whatpeople think about me
personally.
You know, they they could thinkthat I'm a weirdo, and I am a
weirdo, but as long as theyenjoy what I'm producing, that's
all I care about.

SPEAKER_01 (17:34):
Yeah, I mean we're luckily we're living in an age
where being a weirdo isn'tnecessarily a bad thing, you
know.
Uh I feel like there was a timewhen that was the worst thing
somebody could call you, but nowit's like it's like good.
I I enjoy being a weirdo.
You're good.
You're normal.
Yeah, like your freak flag fly,truly.

SPEAKER_04 (17:54):
Yeah, who wants who wants to be normal?
Who needs normal?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (17:57):
I mean, that's not where good books come from.

SPEAKER_04 (18:00):
Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (18:01):
Uh and uh yeah, I loved Zombie Nerd and the Half
Term Harrowing, not the halfwayharrowing.
That's a different book.
Um, so I I was also sad when umit's discontinued, but I feel
lucky that I got to read it.
Uh, and I'm hopeful that one dayyou'll reconsider about bringing
it back out and the other halfmillion words um that I haven't

(18:21):
had the chance to read and seebecause it was really a creative
take.
And I have some questions abouta few of those characters.
Maybe you can just tell me nowthen, since or you could just
you know slide the manuscript myway.
I don't know.
I'd love to see it.

SPEAKER_04 (18:34):
Maybe maybe I will.
Um the second, the third, andthe fourth books are written.
Wow.
Um, so m mm you know, maybe,maybe I'll send them to you.
But but that's also how thingsend up on file sharing sites,
and I don't like the idea ofthat.

SPEAKER_06 (18:48):
That's true.

SPEAKER_04 (18:49):
And I no, I'm no, I I do trust you though, Leah.
So maybe maybe I'll send you thethe the manuscript for the
second book just to see what youthink.

SPEAKER_07 (18:57):
Yeah, I would never share it, but it is also true
that it's Google and like Yeahdo we trust Google?

SPEAKER_01 (19:03):
I don't trust Google.
There's there's actually there'ssomething that um I just learned
today uh from our good friendAlice B.
Sullivan is that um if youpublish your book on Amazon,
there's now a new policy and youhave to uncheck it if you don't
want this to happen.
But if you um have an ebookversion, they are like

(19:24):
automatically opting people into allow PDF downloads.
Yeah, I've heard about that.
Yeah.
So it's just it's basically justAmazon's just like, hey, do you
want to pirate this book?
We're gonna make it easier.
Only one person has to buy it.

SPEAKER_07 (19:42):
Well, let's talk about your new book that's
coming up, Weird Water.
Uh, how long have you beenworking on it and when can we
expect it to come out?

SPEAKER_04 (20:21):
Oh, well um I've I've been working on it for a
long time.
Uh well, well, not that long,actually.
That's not true.
Um when I was both to Acceptthat the zombie nerd stuff
wasn't going to continue, I hadto confront the question of what
now.
And uh one idea that I'd hadrattling around in the back of

(20:44):
my mind sort of resurfaced.
It was something that I'dactually considered stopping
work on the second zombie nerdbook in order to pursue, but my
my erstwhile editor told me thatthis would be a bad idea, so I
didn't do it.
However, uh once I was withoutany skin in the game anymore, I

(21:06):
had the opportunity to focus onit.
It uh it took me around sixmonths to complete.
Uh, I shopped it around to someof the larger agencies and
publishers to begin with.
I came close a couple of times,but not close enough.
Uh still um I eventually found aplace who were impressed by it

(21:27):
and were willing to you knowhelp me get it out.
But uh we're gonna talk aboutthat later, aren't we?
So I don't want to give too muchaway.

SPEAKER_01 (21:37):
I'm looking at the spelling of Weird Water,
W-Y-R-D.
W-Y-R-D.
And I know that um in ZombieNerd, you had a lot of
references to old um Celtic uhuh words and um and names of
things, and I and I know thatthat's kind of like the um

(21:57):
ancient Nordic spelling forword.
Well, no, it's not.

SPEAKER_04 (22:02):
Um sorry, Dan.

SPEAKER_07 (22:04):
I know I love the fact the light real-time
fact-checking.
It's great.

SPEAKER_04 (22:08):
Um when when we talk about the term weird, um,
especially when when we spell itin the way that I am, W-Y-R-D,
uh, the weird means the unknown.
It means something.

SPEAKER_01 (22:20):
Yeah.
So like there's a there's a runecalled the word rune, which is
spelled.
No, the weird yeah, the weirdrune.
The weird rune.

SPEAKER_04 (22:27):
And that yeah, and that that's well, there that's
the thing.
There is no hand of fate.
There is no weird rune.
That's also true.
There are lots of there are lotsof runes, and runes do make a
big, you know, a big part of thebook, but um the weird rune is
the blank rune.
Yeah.
It's the one that you pull outthat has nothing on it, and

(22:50):
that's what I'm trying to sortof give with the book.
It's the it's the weird book,it's the weird water, it's the
unknown.

SPEAKER_07 (22:58):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (22:59):
Perfect.

SPEAKER_07 (23:00):
I love that.
And when is it coming out?

SPEAKER_04 (23:02):
Uh I don't know.
Um it uh when does this episodedrop?
It'll probably be the on thesolstice, you say.
So 21st?

SPEAKER_07 (23:10):
Yep.

SPEAKER_04 (23:11):
It may it may already be out by the time this
by the time this episode isreleased.

SPEAKER_07 (23:16):
All right, we'll make sure that the links are in
the show notes for everybody tocheck it out.
So before we get into Eugene, Ireally want to hear more about
this book because shocker andpossible spoiler alert for our
listeners, it does not includezombies.
So who is your most interestingcharacter that we have to look
forward to?

SPEAKER_04 (23:33):
Uh I'd of course have to choose the main
character.
Um, her name is Andromeda Watts,uh, though she goes by the name
Andrew for most of the book.
Um, she's a character who I Ididn't really know that much
about when I first startedwriting her.
It was uh I actually I was a bitworried.
I was thinking, like, oh man, ifI if I can't get my head around

(23:56):
my main character, this storydoesn't stand a chance.
But um, she opened up as I wentalong and I got to know her
better and I developed herpersonality.
Um, writing a female lead wastough to begin with.
I mean, I've never been a15-year-old girl, nor have I had

(24:18):
much interaction with them sinceleaving school, and I I didn't
really have much interactionwith them then, even when I was
there.
But um her sex became more of anon-issue as things progressed.
Um, she she she's not a femalecharacter, she's a character who
just happens to be female, ifyou know what I mean.
Yeah.

(24:38):
Um, and I really think that thethe readers will like her.
There's uh there's layers to herpersonality which get hinted at
as things go along, but uh neverreally like fully revealed, if
you know what I mean.
It's it's rather than it being acase of here she is, here's
everything about her now story.

(25:01):
Yeah.
Yeah, if that makes any sense.

SPEAKER_01 (25:04):
No, it does, because uh, I mean, I've I've read I've
read plenty of books where it'slike this person is five foot
five, they have blonde hair.
And then and then it's like, nowthat you know all that, the
story begins.
And like I'd much rather learnthe details of a character just
by watching the story play outand then being like, oh, that's

(25:27):
what kind of a person you are.

SPEAKER_07 (25:29):
What is the core of this book about?

SPEAKER_04 (25:31):
Oh, the core.
Um it's it's it's mainly it it'snot a book, it it doesn't have a
very strict kind of theme, thesame way that the the the the
zombie nerd things did.
Um it's just a good story, ifanything.
It does have its you know, itsideas behind it, but when it

(25:54):
comes to to just readingsomething, it it's it's it's
just a a mystery, if anything.
Good mystery.
It has a lot of spooky parts init, has a lot of weird magical
parts in it.
And I just hope that it's a agood story that that people will
enjoy reading.
It's um unlike unlike ZombieNerd, I'm not trying to push

(26:17):
anything.
I just really hope that peopleenjoy reading the story and you
know getting something out ofit.

SPEAKER_07 (26:24):
What's the you know, we talked to a lot of authors
about genres and sometimesgenres being limiting, but I'm
curious when this goes onto abookshelf somewhere, where where
are we gonna find it?

SPEAKER_04 (26:34):
I'm not entirely sure.
Um horror.
It could be mystery, it could behorror.
Um I I've I've described it asfolk horror, which is something
that I really I really like.
Um but uh yeah, you you know,you know what I what I'm like.
I don't I don't write somethingthat that can be easily

(26:57):
categorized.
But even so.

SPEAKER_01 (27:00):
You did start by saying that you don't like
labeling things.
Yeah, I don't I don't likelabeling things.
Um so maybe this is just a storythat doesn't fit inside the box,
and that's why people shouldBecause it's weird.
It's the blank room.

SPEAKER_07 (27:14):
Yeah, yeah, it's weird.
It's W-Y-R-D weird.
Yeah.
Was there a moment that sparkedthe story for you?

SPEAKER_04 (27:21):
Uh the basic idea uh came to me as the best of them
do, uh, pretty much out ofnowhere.
But um, I started reading a lotof stuff by other writers who've
done similar things.
Um, Algernon Blackwood, uh DavidAlman was a big influence.
There's a hefty chunk of StephenKing in there, as we've as we've

(27:44):
talked about before.
Um what I decided was that Iwanted to do something like
that, but I didn't want it to bethe same as that.
Um I I I I I want I I didn'twant it to be Jack Callahan
writes a folk horror story.
I wanted it to be a folk horrorstory by Jack Callahan, if that

(28:06):
makes any sense.
Um, it retains my style becausemy style is the only thing that
I can do.
Um I and I'm I'm someone whospent periods of my life living
in both a countryside and a citysetting, and I was raised around
horses and everything that comeswith them.

(28:27):
So I've met my fair share ofcountryside types, and I always
felt that there's a certainotherworldly aspect to them.
The countryside can seem almostforbidden to the uninitiated.
There are things which outsidersdon't understand, there are
things which they aren't in on,if you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_01 (28:48):
Yes, that's how I feel about cities, to be honest.

SPEAKER_07 (28:51):
Well, or vice versa, but that feels really resonant
as a horse person.

SPEAKER_04 (28:54):
There's a giant horse arena that's around the
corner from us, and even otherpeople that live here didn't
know that it was a horse arena,and I didn't know that they
didn't know Jack and so So whatI what I wanted to do with
Weirdwater was to simply takethat to its ultimate conclusion.

SPEAKER_07 (29:12):
The mystery of the farm.
Yeah, I think about all thetimes that I've brought when I
was younger, I would bring,especially in university days, I
would bring people who I hadbefriended in university who
were city folks, and they wouldcome to the farm.
And it really was an experiencewhere it felt like they were
moving into a different worldthey didn't know how to function
in.
So I love the idea of beingotherworldly and a little bit

(29:32):
haunted.
And I'm also a big fan of hopefolk horror.

SPEAKER_01 (29:35):
So um I I have some I have some stories.
I won't share these stories nowbecause they're too long, but I
have some stories about like mychildhood home was a was a cabin
that we built by hand, literallylike three miles in the woods
with like a a hand pump well.
Um that we when we moved outbecame a hunting camp and we

(29:55):
would take people hunting andthey were not ready for that
experience.
And I'm like, I lived here.

SPEAKER_07 (30:02):
Um who do you think is gonna love this story?

SPEAKER_04 (30:05):
Anyone with a wallet.
No, no, I'm joking.
No, imagine if I was like that.
Um if you like a good mystery,I've got you covered.
Um, if you like somethingspooky, I've got you covered.
If you like, like we say, folkystuff, I've got you covered.
Uh, that's actually a really bigelement.

(30:28):
Um, also, um, it's set in 1979.

SPEAKER_07 (30:31):
Nice.

SPEAKER_04 (30:32):
So if you if you like if you like silly pop
culture references, you bet yourass I've got you covered.

SPEAKER_07 (30:38):
Oh, interesting.
Did you just play uh 1979 bySmashing Pumpkins the whole time
while you were writing it?

SPEAKER_04 (30:45):
No, I didn't.
I hate the smashing pumpkins.

SPEAKER_07 (30:48):
Jack, this interview's over.

SPEAKER_04 (30:52):
The reason that I that I decided to base it in in
the past is because I absolutelydetest the intrusion of the
modern world into my life, and Itherefore detest it into the
into the intrusion into my mywriting.
Um I wanted to write somethingwhere uh nobody could say, uh,

(31:15):
how are we going to find thisout?
And then they could Google it.
I didn't I didn't I didn't wantthere to be a point where
somebody could say, oh dear,there's no bone signal here,
what are we gonna do?
I just re I removed all of thosethings completely and it made it
a much easier novel to write.
Because um when you're writing anovel that has the if you're

(31:38):
doing it in the like um ifyou're writing it now, then all
of those things exist.
Whereas if you're writing it inthe past, none of those things
exist.
So nobody can call somebody up,nobody can Google anything, and
it makes it much moreinteresting.

SPEAKER_07 (31:55):
It also makes it much more real because I have
watched my fair share of shows.
I haven't seen as much in books,but there's nothing that annoys
me and takes me out of themoment more than when like a
character shows up at anothercharacter's house to see if
they're home in 2023 or whateveryou know year it's filmed.
Like, who does that?
No one does that anymore.

SPEAKER_01 (32:14):
I've arrived at your front door.
Are you home?

SPEAKER_04 (32:17):
It's just absolutely not real.
Um have you have you seen thehave you seen the film
Midsummer?

SPEAKER_07 (32:23):
Yes.

SPEAKER_04 (32:25):
Love it.
Have you seen yeah, have younoticed how there is that scene
where the guy goes, There's nophone signal here?

SPEAKER_07 (32:32):
Yes.
They have to they have toestablish that, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (32:35):
Yeah.
But no, screw that.
Like um, I I've just completelyremoved it by basing it in the
past.

SPEAKER_01 (32:42):
Well, I think that's the thing that I love most about
the the zombie apocalypse as agenre is typically um it's
taking place in a post-societyworld.
Um and that technology, it'sit's around, but it doesn't
work.
So he kind of abandoned it.
And I I think that there'ssomething about specifically our
our generation where we westarted life in an analog world,

(33:06):
and then we learned technologyand all of life changed that's
kind of overwhelming, eventhough it is a part of our lives
and we're fluent in thatlanguage of like let's just
Google it.
Um, but we're we also remember atime where we were like, I
wonder if my friend is home.
I better jump on my BMX bike andgo find out.

SPEAKER_04 (33:27):
Yeah, totally.
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_07 (33:29):
Was there anything from the era of like 1979 that
you did research on that likesurprised you or finds its way
into the book that you think isunique for folks to remember
about that time?

SPEAKER_04 (33:39):
Uh mostly music stuff.
Um, because because you know, Iyou know uh how much I love
music.
Um, there's a lot of referencesto music in there, there's a lot
of references to the sexpistols, there's a lot of
references to Susie and theband.
She is one of my favorite bands.
And um writing a book in thisera sort of gave me the

(34:02):
opportunity to talk about thosebands, even to even just a
little bit.
Um, it was really fun.

SPEAKER_07 (34:08):
I have to be honest with you, Jack.
I'm not sure that you reallylove music if you don't love
Billy Corgan from The SmashingPumpkins, but I guess we're
gonna have to uh agree todisagree on this fundamental.
I can forgive it, Leah cannot.
Um, I've been listening toMelancholy and the infinite
sadness on basically repeatbecause it's the 40th
anniversary?
The 30th?

(34:29):
Anyways, it's been around for along time now.
Yeah.
Um is there a moment in yourbook where brains matter more
than bravery, sort of likeEugene from The Walking Dead?

SPEAKER_04 (34:38):
Uh, not really.
Um, certainly not in the sameway as with Eugene.
Uh the characters do have tothink and plan and uh like
figure things out, but thereisn't really any sort of eureka
moment.
Um I wanted it to be a storywhere the settings and
situations act upon thecharacters instead of the other

(35:01):
way around.
They they they obviously have toreact to them, but there's not
some kind of master plan orperfect solution which solves
everything and they all livehappily ever after.
Actually, in fact, quite theopposite.

SPEAKER_07 (35:17):
Oh.
Spoiler alert, everybody.
You are not gonna be spoileralert.
Your heart may not feel warm atthe end of this book, is what
I'm hearing.
How do you hope people will feelwhen they finish your book?
Um I don't I don't really know.
Um like, do you want to drinkthe tears of your readers like
Lori?
Oh no, no, no, absolutely not.

(35:37):
Then you are not a softcoresociopath.

SPEAKER_04 (35:41):
Yeah, I suppose you're right.
No, um I'd I I'd like to thinkthat somebody would read this
book and then get to the end ofit and think like um, oh, that's
really interesting.
What happens next?

SPEAKER_07 (35:53):
Is it a series?
Are you planning for more thanone?
Well, well, well, well, we'llwe'll get to that later, won't
we?
When are we gonna get to it?

SPEAKER_01 (36:00):
After you read the book, Leah.
After you pay for it, you readwith your money from your
wallet.

SPEAKER_07 (36:07):
I said that anyone with a wallet.
I know that I'm gonna have toact on it fast and get a
physical copy because I onlyhave a Kindle copy of um your
zombie book.
And so I I have regrets aboutthat fact now.
So gotta act fast, gotta get theweird water in our physical
hands all the way across theocean.

(36:27):
Okay, so I'll ask this uh lastquestion before we jump into the
land of Eugene.
Uh, if your book had a movietrailer, is there like an epic
moment that would have to be inthat movie trailer?

SPEAKER_04 (36:38):
I think I'm somewhat unusual among writers in that I
don't really like the idea ofanything I've written becoming a
film.
Um, especially not Weird Water,as I don't think it would
translate to the screen.
I I think it's also because I'mtoo much of a control freak.
Um I'd I'd say to the director,look, uh you need to bring me on

(37:02):
board as a creative consultant.
I think that's true.
I want to be involved.
Yeah, I want to be involved inthe casting and I want to
compose the score, and ofcourse, I want to be in it.
Oh, who would you play?
In fact, why don't you sit overthere and I'll direct it as
well?
Um if it if if if it did need tohave a trailer, there's a few

(37:26):
images that I think would work.
Um in my mind's eye, themajority of the story has a very
has very muted colours, lots ofgreys and dark browns and
greens, apart from a few selectscenes.
I d I uh I don't want to givetoo much away, but there's one
bit where the stuff that's onlybeen hinted at is finally shown

(37:49):
or revealed.
It's the closest thing I've everdone to a like a jump moment.
Not quite a jump scare, but uh asudden and startling reveal.
Uh if anyone you just read thebook and you'll know which bit I
mean.

SPEAKER_01 (38:04):
Yeah, let us know.
Okay.
That sounds good.
If you know the part, let Jackknow.
Yeah.
Let's segue to Eugene.

SPEAKER_07 (38:12):
Yeah.
So I want to start by sayingthat I remember uh messaging you
on Instagram about The WalkingDead, and initially you were
like, I'm not watching this.
I like refuse to watch thisshow.
So could you tell us the historyof your relationship with the
Walking Dead series and how onearth did we get here to be
talking about it with you?

SPEAKER_04 (38:30):
Uh I first encountered it during my third
year of university, so 2012 to13, I think.
And um a friend insisted that Iwatch the first few episodes
with him when he learned thatthat I hadn't watched any of
them at all.
And he kept saying, like, youyou've got to stick with it,

(38:54):
it's it gets better.
But I was like, man, uh eachepisode is an hour, and there's
like 10 of them per episode.
I haven't got time for this, andI can't imagine that you do
either.
I I don't know what your examitinerary is for the end of this
year, but mine's got me shakingin my boots.

SPEAKER_07 (39:13):
Well, you're thinking about post-humanism,
that's not an easy topic, Jack.

SPEAKER_04 (39:17):
Well, yeah.
However, um when I startedgetting more involved with the
fandom due to putting out my ownzombie-related stuff with um,
you know, the zombie nerd stuff,I decided that I should like you
know give it another go.
And uh my mum has Amazon Primeand she'd seen the whole lot,

(39:38):
but she agreed to watch it withme again.
Love your mom.
And yeah, and I felt I shouldfinally see what all the fuss is
about.
I do this all the time.
I'm always like 10 years behindeverything.

SPEAKER_01 (39:53):
Well, at least then you've got a lot to catch up on.

SPEAKER_04 (39:55):
Yeah.
So and people always say to me,like, you know, have have how
have you not seen this film, orwhat do you do all day?
And I'm like, Well, I've beenI've been getting really into
these old radio shows from the1940s.

SPEAKER_01 (40:09):
They're really cold.
That's what it is.
You're just catching up on stuffchronologically.

SPEAKER_07 (40:16):
I've said it before, I will say it again.
You and my great uncle Graham,who is sadly no longer with us,
possibly haunting you at the topof your stairs, would be
besties.
It's hilarious how much youremind me of him.
Um he's he's also a very smartfellow who.
Knows old English.
Um, but uh it's interesting tome because when I asked you, you

(40:39):
know, like who do you like themost in the Locking Dead series,
you said Eugene, who is Dan'salso one of his favorite
characters, and I hate Eugene,and yet I love both of you.
So tell me.

SPEAKER_04 (40:51):
Oh no, you never told you you told me that Dan
likes Eugene, but you never toldme that you hate Eugene.

SPEAKER_07 (40:58):
I find him extremely annoying.
You're married to him.
You're married to him.
But before we I forgot to askyou an important question.
How far have you watched thewhole series yet?
How far are you in?

SPEAKER_04 (41:13):
No, um, I am, I think I think, as far as I know,
I'm a few episodes away fromstarting the notorious 11 and
final season.

SPEAKER_07 (41:24):
You could probably still just don't do that to
yourself.
Although Eugene does have aninteresting arc in season 11.
Kind of.
Kind of, yeah.
He wears a hat.
He does.

SPEAKER_01 (41:37):
That's that's the only good thing I can say about
season 11.
Eugene wears a hat.

SPEAKER_07 (41:42):
But I I'm really excited to talk about this with
you because like The WalkingDead is so famous and is such a
long series.
It's like, how do you even bringthat up on a show like ours?
And I think the best way to doit is to talk about characters
or like specific moments in it.
And so this is the opportunityyou and Dan have to convince me
that I should stop hatingEugene.

(42:03):
I don't think we're gonna beable to do that.
I want to know right now.
Are you Team Eugene or are youanti-Eugene?
That's what I feel like we needto make a teacher that says Team
Eugene.

SPEAKER_01 (42:14):
Yeah, I I think it's hard to sell a character um
based on the merits of being anabsolute coward only acting out
of his own self-interest.
And then coming to the rescueonly after creating all of the
problems.

SPEAKER_07 (42:33):
Uh is that how you would describe Eugene in a
nutshell, Dan?

SPEAKER_01 (42:36):
Yeah.
I love Eugene because he'scomplex and he represents a part
of my brain.
Um, but I I like I I don't wanthim on my team.
Unless he's like back at theback at the um the shelter, the
the zombie apocalypse shelter,making bullets for me.

SPEAKER_07 (42:56):
Uh Jack, if you were going to describe Eugene to
someone in like one or twosentences, or perhaps like it's
Eugene's dating profile, which Iknow you you abore.
Okay, it's Eugene's um likeseeking a woman uh uh thing in
you know the newspapers theyused to have classify it.
The singles section.
What would what would Eugene sayabout themselves?

(43:17):
Like how would you describe thisperson?

SPEAKER_04 (43:19):
Well, um he's not the easiest of people to be
buddies with, is he?
No.
In fact, I imagine if I and ifhe and I were to meet each
other, we'd probably hate eachother.
Um if I really had to big him upthough, I'd say he's definitely
someone who's worth havingaround, even though it comes

(43:41):
with added stresses.
He um his knowledge and hisexpertise might seem useless in
such settings, but you neverknow when you might come to rely
on it.
I mean, he he prevents the DeusEx Machina having to be pulled
out of thin air, which alwayscomes in handy.
But I know you've said umtalking about a a dating section

(44:05):
as well, uh something like uh,you know, uh being being rezoned
into Love Town.
In fact, that that that entiremonologue would cut would would
work.
Yeah, being rezoned into LoveTown.

SPEAKER_07 (44:21):
I love hearing your American accent, Jack.
That's fun.
Um one of my first memories, andone of the reasons why I hate
Eugene, uh, is early on whenhe's first introduced.
This is Dan, you'll probablyknow, or you might know Jack.
What season is he introduced in?

SPEAKER_01 (44:36):
Uh season six.

SPEAKER_07 (44:39):
So we meet Eugene, we meet Rosita, and we meet
Abraham, and they're all on amission to go and he knows the
cure, right?
But he's got to get somewhere.
That's what he's supposedlytelling us all.
And like that's cool and all,but the scene that stucks out or
stucks out, I know English.
Uh the scene that sticks out forme is uh Abraham and Rosita

(45:01):
getting it on, and Eugenewatching creepily in the
background.
That is he's a creep.
Not only is he a coward, but youhave to add the word creep to
Eugene, at least at thebeginning.
Um, so what made you want tokeep watching Eugene when you
first met him?

SPEAKER_04 (45:21):
Um I liked how much of a pain in the arse he was.
Uh I've always had a soft spotfor characters that like that.
Um, a good comic reliefcharacter shouldn't have to try
too hard to be funny.
Um something is funny when it'sunexpected.
And like we say to begin with,we're never sure what's going to

(45:45):
come out of Eugene's mouth.
Um, even when it's somethingsimple like uh that's
classified.
I just found it to be reallywell written and I and I wanted
more.

SPEAKER_01 (45:57):
Yeah, even like his um his explanation as to why he
has a mullet, which is thatthere was a professor that he
had that it was probably eventhat guy was probably even a
made-up person, but somebodyalong the way that he respected
said, I I like the mullet, itmakes you look interesting.
You look like a fun guy, andhe's like, I'm keeping it.

SPEAKER_00 (46:18):
This isn't making me like him more so far.
You all are failing at yourassignment.

SPEAKER_01 (46:22):
You know, the one thing that I like most about
Eugene is that like people withEugene's qualities tend to be uh
really delusional aboutthemselves.
Whereas Eugene is veryself-aware of all of his faults,
and he will tell people exactlywho he is.
He'll be like, I'm a coward.
He'll he'll say it, he'll he'llsay it loud and proud.

(46:43):
He's like, I'm a coward, I'mgonna do whatever I need to do
to protect myself.
Um, and that's just who I am.

SPEAKER_04 (46:49):
I agree, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_07 (46:51):
Do you think he's a coward by the end of the show,
though?
Of course, yeah.
Um I've I find so you're inseason 10 right now, Jack, and
you're still like, yeah, still atotal coward.
Well, there's nothing wrong withbeing a coward.
Interesting.
Say more.
What is the virtue of beingcowardly?

SPEAKER_04 (47:11):
Oh dear.
Right, here we go.
Um, there is nothing wrong withdeciding that you are a coward.
Um, it's very easy, as we'vesaid, uh as I've said to you
before, to imagine oneself ahero when you are provided with
the um uh the protectionnecessary to not have to admit

(47:36):
that you are a coward.

SPEAKER_01 (47:38):
Yeah, that's very true.

SPEAKER_04 (47:40):
It's also uh I mean come on.
It's uh I mean come on, um Dan.
Um you um you've served, haven'tyou?
You're a you're a yeah.
Does it piss you off when peoplesay this is what I would do?

SPEAKER_01 (47:55):
I've uh I've seen what a lot of people do in
really bad situations, and Ithink every single one of them
that didn't exactly react the inthe best way probably thought
that they were the you know, thetoughest person out there.
In fact, a lot of times it'susually the person who talks the
biggest.
Um and you know, they'll betalking to you one minute and

(48:18):
being like, yeah, we're gonna dothis, and then the moment like
an opportunity comes for them todisappear into the background,
you turn around, they're gone.
And um, I don't think thateveryone acts that way.
I think there's a lot of peoplethat are brave and don't know it
because they haven't really beentested yet.

(48:39):
And then there's some peoplethat think they're brave and
aren't.

SPEAKER_07 (48:43):
That's interesting.
Yeah, I'm thinking about uh howcalculated he is in the
beginning that he attacheshimself to two very tough
people, pee people.
I can't speak today.
It's one of those days.
He attaches himself to some verytough people, and uh and uh you
know Abraham is uh was hemilitary?

(49:04):
Yes, yeah.
And then Rosita, I don't know,she just had the outfit.

SPEAKER_01 (49:08):
Yeah, unlike Abraham the most.

SPEAKER_06 (49:10):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (49:12):
I say that like Abraham's like the other half of
my brain.
So I've got I'm like halfAbraham, half Eugene, and so you
could imagine what it's likeinside of my head.

SPEAKER_07 (49:19):
But he finds Abraham and Rosita.
Oh, right, Rosita also makes ain a way, Rosita is uh a
counterpart to Eugene becauseshe also makes a choice that
like Abraham is a safe person toattach herself to uh in the
zombie apocalypse.

SPEAKER_06 (49:32):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (49:33):
And she ends up being quite tough and awesome.
But he obviously makes acalculated choice to lie to
them.
He's he doesn't see that he hasany value other than to pretend
that he does by saying he hasthe cure and he needs their safe
their safety.
Why on earth do they forgive himwhen they find out that he lied?

SPEAKER_04 (49:48):
Why that's very no, that's that that's very
important though.
Um I was very um glad to seethat I am not the only person
you know in the world who seesthe the similarities between
between Abra Abraham and Ahab ofMoby Dick.

(50:10):
Have you read Moby Dick?

SPEAKER_07 (50:12):
When I was like 14, so I don't remember other than
it's a really big whale.

SPEAKER_04 (50:16):
Very, it's very, very, very similar.
Interesting.
And um, I think it would havebeen more more fun and more
interesting had there been arelationship between Abraham and
Eugene.
Uh some uh as as you know,Eugene both provides and then re

(50:36):
and then gets rid of his whitewhale.
Um I would I would have thoughtit would have been very
interesting for them to havemore conversations, if you know
what I mean.

SPEAKER_01 (50:47):
Yeah, I agree.
I agree.
I didn't see it that way, butnow that you mention it, did you
not did you not see that?
I didn't.
It didn't occur to me.

SPEAKER_07 (50:56):
Abraham is totally Ahab.
Okay, for the people like me whoread Moby Dick and then promptly
forgot it, you're gonna have tospell this out again like I'm a
toddler, Jack.
With the toddler voice.
Yes.

SPEAKER_04 (51:06):
He stands in front of the the great horde and he
gives an action if in fact if Iif I remember rightly, it's very
similar to a a speech from MobyDick.
And what what Abraham Abrahamrepresents is Ahab from Moby
Dick.

(51:27):
He has his white whale, he hasthe thing that he wants to go
and search for, he has a thingthat um he needs to find, but
when it's gotten rid of byEugene saying, you know, this
this doesn't exist, then he'scompletely destroyed.
But I think that it would havebeen more fun and more

(51:48):
interesting for Abraham to thenspeak to Eugene and say, Why has
this happened?
I think it would have beeninteresting for Eugene to say to
him, Why did you save my life?
But uh that doesn't happen.

SPEAKER_07 (52:06):
It is a missed opportunity, yeah, because I
don't fully get why they forgiveEugene.

SPEAKER_04 (52:11):
No, neither do I.
I think that's really weird.

SPEAKER_01 (52:13):
Yeah, I think it's I think they just accept him as a
human being, and I don't know.
I mean, it's not a it's not aquick process.
Like Rosita's pissed.
Pissed off at him for a reallylong time.
Like there's a scene wherethey're all out practicing their
machete skills, and Eugene'sjust not he's just like, I'm not
good at this, and then she likeunloads on him, and she's just

(52:35):
like, You're terrible ateverything.
You suck, you should fucking goover there and be a child or
something.
I forget what she said, butsomething along those lines.
Direct quote from Rosita, yep.
That's exactly what she said.
Um I think Rosita herself, sheattaches herself to people that
she can learn from.
Um, she kind of says as much uhwhen she's talking about her

(52:57):
past.
And I think she sees Eugene thesame way.
Like Eugene's somebody that shecan learn from um a lot of these
like um engineering and and uhand high-end uh skills that
require a lot of knowledge.

SPEAKER_07 (53:12):
Yeah.
He is an interesting example.
I'll give him this of like incommunity, whether it's the
apocalypse or not.
And I think it's very easy toforget this now, or we can just
sort of ice people out if theypiss us off, because that's what
I would do.
In 2025 world, I met someonelike Eugene, he lies to me.
I'm never talking to him again.
You're in the zombie apocalypse,he has skills, and you're right,
he's a human being.

(53:32):
I don't think he's a soft, well,maybe he is a soft core
sociopath, actually, Eugene.
I don't know.
But he's he's human, and youhave to sort of accept that
there are going to be people inyour community that you don't
really like, but they are stillpeople, um, and that they can
contribute.
You just have to sort of like II think of people that in my own
life is like in concentriccircles, and there's some people

(53:52):
who I'm like, okay, you canexist in my world, but you're
you're in an outer ringsomewhere, and that's where
Eugene would have to be, if thatmakes any sense.

SPEAKER_01 (54:01):
Um Yeah, Gabriel found himself in that same outer
ring, and I think Eugene spenttime there, but Eugene also made
himself um valuable to thegroup.
That's his whole thing, is likehe's always about making sure
that he's valuable enough thatthey take care of him.

SPEAKER_07 (54:16):
Yeah.
So you don't think he becomesbraver over time?
Because I literally have aquestion here that says, How do
you see Eugene change as hebecomes braver over time?

SPEAKER_04 (54:27):
I do have an answer.
Uh I certainly think it's thethe the the most believable
character development over time.
I mean, the entire the theentire thing, uh the entire cast
is made up of heroes, some morechivalrous than others, but um

(54:48):
they all tend to be very skilledwarriors or are able to become
skilled warriors very quickly.
Uh it can be argued that theseare indeed the only people who
would have a chance of survivalat all, but it leaves Bethel uh
very little room for developmentwhen it comes to bravery.
With um with Eugene again itit's because it's unpredictable.

(55:12):
We imagine that he's going to bethis bumbling, dithering wuss
who gets pushed over a lot, butbut when he does something brave
and actually pulls it off, it'smore effective.
Again, it's it's morebelievable.
You know, what when he when hebites Dwight on the dick, it's

(55:33):
not exactly Hollywood heroism,he doesn't leap up to his feet
and like engage Dwight insplendorous combat, but it it's
what I would have done, and itworked as well.
Yeah.
And he's a he he's a he's acharacter who's mainly driven by
opportunism, like Dan said, Um,and he gradually learns how to

(55:54):
use that drive for the rightreasons.

SPEAKER_01 (55:57):
Yeah.
Um, you know, even though he'she's driven by fear, and like
his whole survival approach isby attaching himself to people
who will deal with the mostdangerous elements of the world
for him, um, there's a lot ofthere's there's many instances
where he overcomes his fear andactually does something heroic.
Like um, I think the first timethat we see it is when Glenn and

(56:22):
a few other people um kind ofgot uh left behind on a supply
run and they're about to die.
Uh and here comes Eugene, thesavior of the day, uh playing
dubstep music as loud as he canin a van, trying luring the
zombies away, even though hecould have just gotten in that

(56:43):
van and drove away himself andbeen like, yeah, those guys
didn't make it back.

SPEAKER_04 (56:47):
Agreed, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (56:49):
And then we see it later in at the you know,
spoiler, the end of seasoneight, um, and a few other
times, like when he bit Dwight'sdick.

SPEAKER_07 (56:57):
I think that's a classic moment that's under
disgust as a uh defense techtactic.
Um what other moments are therewhen Eugene really like makes a
difference that if if we haddone things my way, where I've
been like, fuck you, Eugene, getout of here, uh things would
have gone really badly for theWalking Dead group.

SPEAKER_04 (57:16):
Uh what I depend I suppose that what that depends
what you mean by a difference.
Um convin convincing the theother the others that he had the
idea of a cure was pretty smart.

SPEAKER_07 (57:30):
I mean it did keep him alive.

SPEAKER_04 (57:32):
Yeah.
He'd most likely be dead had henot.

SPEAKER_07 (57:36):
Yeah, and if he hadn't done that, then later on
he wouldn't have helped saveAlexandria a few a few times in
a few different ways.

SPEAKER_04 (57:42):
But um, I suppose if we're if we're gonna have to be
really big about it, it it hasto be the the thing with the
ammunition the ammunition andblowing everybody up.
Uh blowing up the saviors has tobe the big one.

SPEAKER_07 (57:54):
All right, so again, for the person uh here amongst
this group that doesn't have anamazing memory, can you all
retell the story of the blowingup?
Because it's like animpressionist painting in my
head.

SPEAKER_01 (58:04):
Um so Eugene made himself valuable to Negan by
showing him that he was capableof reproducing ammunition.
Well, didn't he do that?

SPEAKER_07 (58:15):
Didn't he find out?
Like he was doing it forAlexandria first.

SPEAKER_01 (58:19):
Yes.
Um, so the way that hedemonstrated to Negan that he
was able to make ammunition wasby making a bullet for Rosita,
which he tried to kill Neganwith.
It wasn't intentional that he hewasn't, it's not like he was
putting it.
He didn't walk up to Negan andwas like, here you go.
But Negan's like, oh, this is awe got a Smarty Pants.
So he grabs Mr.
Smarty Pants and he's like, Iwant you to be my bullet maker.

(58:41):
So he kind of makes himselfuseful to Negan, who is now
going to be his sole protector.
And he becomes this veryimportant p uh person among the
saviors by mass producing lotsof ammunition for this upcoming
war against Rick and all of theother people.
Uh he has a crisis of conscienceuh in there and he decides that

(59:04):
um he's going to he's gonna makesure that the primers aren't
fully flushed when he's puttingthe primers into the shell
casings.
And this causes this would causethe primer to explode backwards
out of the casing and rupture inthe chamber and destroy the
weapon in the person's hands.

SPEAKER_07 (59:24):
Right.
I completely forgot thathappened.
Welcome to my brain.

SPEAKER_01 (59:28):
And it's a very simple and easy thing to do and
hard to notice unless you'relooking very closely, but he he
took that risk um for the peopleof Alexandria so that they would
have an a chance to fight backagainst Negan.
Otherwise, Negan was gonna win.
He had all the ammunition, he hehad all the people, he had the
best battle tactics, and he wasgonna win.

(59:51):
Um and the only way that uh itcould have been defeated is with
logistics, you know, like umrifles win wars or rifles win
battles, but logistics win wars,and that's like a perfect
example of that.
Bravo.

SPEAKER_07 (01:00:09):
I don't know why this is making me okay, you know
what?
I think it's working actually.
I'm starting to appreciateEugene a little bit more because
now I'm thinking about um he'she's definitely a morally gray
character, but you see him makechoices that he could make
different ones.
Like, for example, uh thesaviors on location, Negan has
his full on harem, which is allwomen in weird.

(01:00:32):
Little black dresses who areessentially, what's the word I'm
looking for?
Um, coerced into being one ofhis one of Negan's ladies.
And one of the benefits thatNegan gives him is like hangout
time with the ladies.
And I really feel like Eugenecould have taken that in a
different direction, but insteadhe was like, let's just play
video games.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:52):
Yeah.
He even says to them, like, um,you know, I know you don't want
to be here, but while we'rehere, maybe, you know, you can
just have a good time.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (01:01:01):
Now, granted, he did use the opportunity to stroke
his own ego by showing them thathe could blow up stuff.
Um, but he could have been verydifferent in that context.
And the early Eugene would leadme to believe that he would have
been much more of a lecher.
He's not a good or badcharacter.

SPEAKER_06 (01:01:16):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (01:01:16):
And you can see him weighing his choices and that
he's aware that he could makethe shittier choice in some
circumstances and he he makesthe choice not to, which is in
its own way, I guess, admirable.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:27):
You know, going back to like the the peeping tom uh
thing from season five, I wonderif that was just a really bad
writing choice at the time.
Like they just wanted to make itkind of scandalous.
Because that's something thatnever came up later.
Like he lived in the same houseas them.
Um, he he didn't take advantageof women in Negan's harem when

(01:01:49):
he had the opportunity to.
Like everything about hischaracter post that time,
especially going into season 11that we won't speak of, um, you
know, he just seems like adecent human being with a lot of
heart.
And that the peeping tom aspectnever comes up again.

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:07):
No, I agree.
Um it it's the same as a I thinkthey they put the peeping tom
thing in just to to meannothing.
Um I d I think that um Eugenecould have quite easily become a
very different kind ofcharacter.

(01:02:28):
Um he could have quite easilybecome uh for want of a better
character, he could have quiteeasily become a um a Sheldon
Cooper.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:39):
From the Big Bang Theory?

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:41):
Yeah.
I never watched Eugene.
Yeah.
Um Eugene could have quiteeasily become a Sheldon Cooper,
um, as hollow as an Easter egg,but nowhere near as sweet.
Oh wow.

SPEAKER_07 (01:02:54):
Um that's a burn.

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:57):
And I think I I think that that that was maybe
what they were trying to do withthe with the whole peeping tom
thing.
Um it it didn't work.

SPEAKER_07 (01:03:07):
No, it didn't, because it made me hate him
instantly as somebody, you know,who uh uh has a uterus and has I
don't know if anybody's peepingtomed on me, but I've certainly
had lots of experiences ofpeople being lecherous,
especially when I was younger,um, which is extra creepy.
And we know later on that he'sin love with Rosita, and he does
seem very lonely, but it hethose earlier moments just made

(01:03:29):
him feel like a lot of um cishetero men that I've encountered
that just don't have any socialskills and are sort of longing
for connection, but they have noidea how to do that.
And so they just end up comingoff super awkward with women.
Um, and so that's like assomebody who's experienced
people like Eugene, I think thatmight be the seed of why I hated

(01:03:50):
him so much, even more than himlying, you know, like that and
that that was hischaracter-defining moment for
me.
So it's it is unfortunate if itwas really just a bad choice in
that one episode because itcarries through for me the whole
time.
He just seems inept andemotionally immature.
Neither of you disagree, I cantell.

(01:04:10):
Yeah, I mean I think it was Ithink it was a go on go on that,
go on that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:16):
No, I I'm I'm done, I'm just doubling down.
I think it was a writing error.
I don't think that that belongedin Eugene's character.
And I think maybe that mighthave also just been that they
didn't know Eugene yet.
Or maybe it was uh somethingthat carried over from the comic
or something.

SPEAKER_07 (01:04:31):
Maybe, but I don't think we can talk about it as if
it's an error error when it isin it.
Like it's a canon thing thathappens.
And like, so the only way I cantake it is that he had character
growth around women because ofRosita's rejection, maybe.
And like him, I think at somepoint, like if I'm gonna I'm
gonna stretch it here and saythat he saw Rosita as an object
in early days and theneventually realized that she was

(01:04:51):
a full human being with autonomywho deserved respect, and then
he extended that to other women.
That's the best I can giveEugene.

SPEAKER_04 (01:04:59):
That's that's the only thing it can be.
You really think so?
You really think that he sawRosita as an object?

SPEAKER_07 (01:05:05):
I think in the early days, just because of the way he
was portrayed as being sort ofjust like salacious with her,
like he, like, you know, andalso the way that frankly she
was portrayed in the show in theearly days.
Like she was absolutely the eyecandy in those early seasons.
Um, and I don't think they gaveher a lot of depth until a
little bit later.
So I don't think it was justEugene's fault.

(01:05:28):
I think it was the way that theyportrayed Rosita as like the
object of sexual desire.

SPEAKER_04 (01:05:34):
Interesting, interesting.
Feel free to disagree.
That's a bit fun.
No, uh no, I don't agree, but umbut but but but I I understand
what you're what you're talkingabout.

SPEAKER_07 (01:05:45):
Well, you've actually watched it more
recently, so like you can feelfree to say, hey, here's some
things that I've I just don'tthink you're right, Leah.
I won't hate you.
I'm only gonna hate you for notloving smashing pumpkins.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:57):
Yeah, I think I think the smashing pumpkins
debate.

SPEAKER_07 (01:06:01):
That would be the real end for us.
But I can get I I would love tobe convinced that I'm wrong.
Because this is like this is thelens that I have as somebody who
gets, you know, like is I thinkhyper-aware of gender dynamics
and the objectification ofwomen.
And um, maybe in some cases thatmay actually lead me to not see
the nuance because I'm annoyedby that aspect of it.

SPEAKER_04 (01:06:22):
Well, no, I suppose I I understand what you're
trying to say, but um I Ipersonally, I as I've said
before, um I see the um theromantic thing between Rosita
and Eugene as being completelyunnecessary.
I d um I I don't understand whyit's there at all.

(01:06:43):
I see it as a um almost like ared herring.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:48):
Yeah, it doesn't really lead anywhere.
I mean, like in later seasonsthere's talk between Eugene and
Rosita about things like that.
Um, but it doesn't it doesn'tlead to a thing between him and
Rosita.
In fact, it's it's used as likea a way for uh I think this is
season eleven to be honest.
So don't ruin it for J Jack.

(01:07:11):
I I don't think it's a bigthing.
It's just he has feelings forsomeone who's not Ros Rosita,
and Rosita's like trying toconvince him that he has
feelings for this person, andand she's like she's like,
Really?
You don't have any feelings forthis person?
Then kiss me.
Because she knows.
So she's like, she's like, Yeah,uh if if if that's not how you

(01:07:31):
feel, then you know.
And then he didn't.
Wow.
Character growth for you.
That's the care that's what wewere looking for.
That was the character growth.

SPEAKER_07 (01:07:41):
Jack, are you at the part where he's talking to
somebody that he's interestedin?
I'm not gonna say more because Idon't want to ruin things for
you.

SPEAKER_04 (01:07:47):
No, I've just uh uh we've just seen uh where I am,
we've just seen the bit with umwhere he's talking to Rosetta.
Okay.
But um but the only thing that'sin my mind at the moment is
everything that's going on withAlpha.
What a very interestingcharacter she is.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:07):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:10):
Doesn't Egan end up shagging her?
Yes.
And he's way into it.
Like with the masks on andeverything.
We're talking about thewhisperers, the people who walk
around with uh zombie skin facemasks.

SPEAKER_07 (01:08:26):
And the leader with her zombie skin mask becomes a
becomes a whole thing.

SPEAKER_04 (01:08:34):
I think she sort of sounds like a sort of like a
true that she almost she soundsalmost like Truman Capote.
Maybe that's what she was goingfor.

SPEAKER_07 (01:08:45):
You know, she deserves a whole episode,
actually.
We should definitely talk justabout Alpha Channel and tell you
what.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:51):
Why don't you why don't you come over here and you
can and you can and you cansleep with me, Negan.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:03):
I love how into it Negan was.
Yeah.
That was that was the best partabout the No don't no, don't
tell me, don't tell me, don'ttell me.
Oh, you haven't you haven'tgotten there yet.

SPEAKER_06 (01:09:14):
Oh, I've spoiled it.

SPEAKER_04 (01:09:16):
All right.
I hope that he really goes, Ireally hope that he goes for it.
Because I'll tell you something.
I I really like the guy thatplays Negan.
I think he's incrediblyattractive.
So when he ends up shaggingAlpha, I hope that it's
incredibly sexy.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:34):
I'm not gonna tell you if you're gonna get your
wishes um that.
We've already given away toomuch.

SPEAKER_07 (01:09:40):
But I uh what's his name what's his real name, the
guy who plays Negan?

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:43):
Uh Jeffrey Dean Morgan.

SPEAKER_07 (01:09:44):
Yeah, he is incredibly charismatic and an
amazing actor.
So I hope you get your wish,Jack.
Um, probably because I'm me,I've blocked it out.
Uh, so I don't remember, to behonest, exactly what that looks
like going down.
But it does make me think weneed to have a conversation just
about the whisperers one day.

SPEAKER_06 (01:10:02):
Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_07 (01:10:04):
She's a wild character.

SPEAKER_04 (01:10:05):
I don't like her.
I think she's a terriblecharacter.

SPEAKER_07 (01:10:09):
You don't like her as a character.

SPEAKER_04 (01:10:11):
Yeah, very badly written as well.

SPEAKER_07 (01:10:13):
So, what's the contract?
Like, what is it about her thatmakes her a badly written
character that is the oppositefor Eugene that makes Eugene
compelling for you?

SPEAKER_03 (01:10:22):
Because unlike Eugene, she is really stupidly
written.
I don't really understand why Ineed to come over here.
Look me in the eye and tell mewhy I am so scary.

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:40):
I you know, I agree.
I you know, this is seasons 11is kind of like where the the
Walking Dead is.
You're seeing like a declinehappening.
And I feel like most people, ifI I think that people should
watch up until the end of seasoneight.
I think the end of season eight,like this is a full story, um,

(01:11:02):
and you you should you should gothat far.
Whether or not you continue withseason nine to eleven, that's
your choice.
I don't recommend 11, but nineand ten, it's okay.
Jack, are you gonna watch allthe way through 11?

SPEAKER_07 (01:11:16):
Or have you committed?
Yeah, I will.

SPEAKER_04 (01:11:19):
Um I'll see what happens.
But um, even though everybodyhas said, you know, don't don't
watch it after season 11, youknow, it it's really rubbish.
But you know, I'm gonna have to.

SPEAKER_07 (01:11:32):
Well, if you need therapy after watching season
11, we are here for you, Jack.
We've been through it.

SPEAKER_04 (01:11:37):
Um what happens in season 11?
What what what what do I need toworry about?

SPEAKER_07 (01:11:42):
It's the worst writing ever.
It makes no sense and it'sdeeply disappointing.
So if you're upset about thealpha, you're gonna you're gonna
be you're gonna you're gonna bereally it's like it'll be rage
watching.
If you watch it, you're justgonna be mad.

SPEAKER_04 (01:11:56):
Well no, if it if if it's just alpha stuff, I won't
be worried, but no, no, it'salpha's not a thing, yeah.
It's new.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:04):
It's a new thing and it's I know she ends up dying,
but yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (01:12:08):
So it's it's hard to explain.
I'll put it this way.
I think Alpha's a greatcharacter compared to what comes
next.

SPEAKER_04 (01:12:15):
Yeah.
Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:17):
Yeah, there's just a lot of really weird choices.
There's literally an episodethat starts off like it's an
episode of like CSI Miami.
Like they are investigating acrime scene like with flags and
chalk outlines.

SPEAKER_07 (01:12:31):
It's bad.
However, Eugene's arc, like Isaid, I think there's some level
of redemption for season 10 and11 with Eugene's arc.
Eugene is writing a sci-finovel.
Yeah, like shockingly, that'sprobably one of the more
interesting parts of the showfor me.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:45):
So if you just focus on that, you'll be okay.
He is really dedicated tofinishing this novel, despite
what everything else that'sgoing on.
It comes up a lot.

SPEAKER_07 (01:12:54):
Maybe they should do a spin-off of Eugene's sci-fi
novel.

SPEAKER_06 (01:12:57):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (01:12:58):
Would you read it?
Jack, would you read Eugene'ssci-fi novel?
What I bollocks.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:03):
It's written by Eugene.
It might be really good.

SPEAKER_04 (01:13:07):
Maybe good, I don't know.

SPEAKER_07 (01:13:09):
Do we need more Eugene's in our apocalypse
storytelling?

SPEAKER_04 (01:13:13):
Um Yes, I think we do.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:16):
Yeah, I I mean he's a he's a complex character that
doesn't fit the mold of like thehero.
Um and I I find I find thosetypes of characters always way
more interesting than the personwho's super prepared that has
the answer for everything.
Like less fewer Brad Pitts, moreEugene's.
I can get with that.
Like if World War Z had Eugeneinstead of Brad Pitt, that'd be

(01:13:41):
a much better movie.

SPEAKER_07 (01:13:42):
You know what I gotta agree.
I think you've done it.
I think you've made meslowercase T team Eugene.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:49):
We should reimagine um zombie movies as if they had
Eugene as the main characterinstead of the main character
that they went with.

SPEAKER_07 (01:13:58):
That would be wonderful.
If Eugene was gonna show up inyour book Weird Water, um, how
would he interact withAndromeda?

SPEAKER_04 (01:14:06):
Uh I'm not entirely sure.
Um they'd probably get togetherand um decide.
Oh.
What kind of get together?
What are we talking about?

SPEAKER_07 (01:14:19):
She's only she's only 15 years old.
Thank you for reminding me that.
I forgot for a second that shewas a teen.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:26):
For clarifying that.

SPEAKER_04 (01:14:27):
No, they they probably cut they probably come
together and realize um workeverything how they were going
to work everything out.

SPEAKER_07 (01:14:35):
This is my final question for you, Jack, bringing
it full circle.
If Eugene was a rune, would hebe weird?

SPEAKER_04 (01:14:43):
Gene would most definitely be weird if we're
talking about weird W-Y-R-D.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:49):
Probably in spellings, to be fair.

SPEAKER_04 (01:14:52):
What makes him the weirdest?
Yeah.
It would most probably be both.
And uh yeah, I I I can't I can'ttalk about it.
Yeah, it would definitely beboth.

SPEAKER_07 (01:15:04):
So, Jack, when you're writing things like Weird
Water, I I'm gonna say it'sprobably a stretch that Eugene
was a direct inspiration foryou.
However, he is a veryinteresting character.
What is it about a characterlike Eugene that could teach
anybody about how to write aninteresting character?

SPEAKER_04 (01:15:19):
Writing a guy like Eugene shows you how to write
something really good.
Um he teaches us that's gone.
Now speaking to you from adifferent time.
Ooh.
Um I unfortunately had sometechnical difficulties just

(01:15:40):
towards the end of thisrecording.
I'm not entirely sure whathappened, but my internet
suddenly went off.
I looked at my router and sawthat all of the lights on it had
turned off.
When I went over to reset it, Iknocked over my drink.
When I then turned around to goand grab a towel, I knocked over
the bottle from which I had beenpouring the drink, leaving me

(01:16:03):
with no internet, no drink, awet carpet, and wondering what
on earth I'd done to deservesuch misfortune.
Uh so I thought I'd I'd recordthis little apology for Dan and
Leah to put on to the end of theepisode.
Uh I'm sorry to you, thelisteners, and I'm sorry to them
as well, and I want to thankthem very much for having me on.

(01:16:25):
It's a shame that we didn't getto do the complete episode, but
at least I we got the majorityof it in the bag.
It could have been worse, itcould have happened right at the
start.

SPEAKER_01 (01:16:34):
Well, we lost Jack.
Yeah, Jack to the weird water.
Some yeah, some tactical weirdwater difficulties.
I think it was the ghost at thetop of the stairs.
The ghost internet.
Yeah.
Well, and in fact, I'm prettysure I saw the ghost right
before Jack's connectiondisconnected.

SPEAKER_07 (01:16:53):
Could have also been an alien.
We don't know.
There was a ghost and an alien.
I saw it with the.
If you see Jack like this postonce it comes out on Instagram,
it was the ghost.
It was oh, so we know Jack'sgone.
Or the alien.
Oh no.
Um, they have replaced himactually.
But the good news is is that hisbook has already been get
provided to his publisher.
It's coming out.
We don't know when because Jackhas disappeared into the weird

(01:17:15):
water.

SPEAKER_06 (01:17:16):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (01:17:17):
Um and we don't have to worry about the ghosts.
No.
But if you want to uh make sureyou are following Jack Callahan
so you can be one of the firstto get his book when it comes
out, you can follow him onInstagram at Jack Callahan
Author in the show notes.
And we'll make sure to link uhin the show notes where you can
get his book.

SPEAKER_01 (01:17:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And uh yeah, thanks everybodyfor listening to the Zombie Book
Club.

SPEAKER_07 (01:17:41):
Tell us if you're Team Eugene.
Yeah.
Lowercase or uppercase.
I'm lowercase team Eugene.
I'm uppercase Team Eugene.
Jack, I think, is also uppercaseTeam Eugene.

SPEAKER_01 (01:17:51):
I think so.
Yeah.
Um if you want to support us,you can leave a rating or
review.
Five stars, please.
Uh we like those fives.
Um but you can also send us avoicemail up to three minutes.
614-699-00000006.
It's only three, actually.
But I just keep saying zeros.
Um also, if you want to send usa book pitch, you can send it

(01:18:13):
through that voicemail or sendit to our email address.
Either way.
And uh we might uh feature youin an elevator pitch if uh if
you have one of those.
Um you could also sign up forour newsletter and uh if you
want to follow us on Instagram,it's where we're at at Zombie
Book Club Podcast.
It's where we found Jack.
It is.

SPEAKER_07 (01:18:33):
Wouldn't have Jack without us.
And also, for those whocelebrate, happy solstice, it's
the longest night.
Oh yeah.
Yeah, it is a long night, isn'tit?
And it's only gonna get brighterfrom here.
So if you're having a bad day ora hard year, good news, the sun
is coming back for all of us tobe a little bit longer every
day, a little bit warmer everyday for those of us who also
hate winter, aka me.

SPEAKER_01 (01:18:52):
Yeah, the end is nigh, but the sun is high.
It's not, but it will be.
It will be, it's getting longer.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (01:19:01):
Um, but bye, everybody.
Don't die.
Don't die.
Bye.

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Talking about Eugene (From TWD) with Jack Callaghan | Zombie Book Club Ep 128

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Talking about Eugene (From TWD) with Jack Callaghan | Zombie Book Club Ep 128