'The Dead Weight: Resistance' with special guest Jo Salazar | Zombie Book Club Ep 111 - Zombie Book Club

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:20):
Welcome to Zombie Boat Club, the only boat club
where the book is a boat andthat boat has room for four
people.
Just kidding, you have to kicksomeone out.
I'm Dan, and when I'm notrowing a boat through the river
of life deciding who lives andwho dies, I'm writing a book
about the zombie apocalypse andafter reading the Deadweight
Resistance I realize I need tochange a character's name so it

(00:40):
doesn't seem like I'm copyingJoe, which name I'll never tell.
Oh no, it's already been fixed.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
control f replace all should have kept it the same
amy I'm leah.
today we're talking with one ofour absolute most favorite
humans, joe salazar, author ofthe deadweight and its just
releasedreleased sequel, theDeadweight Resistance.
Joe might say she hates fun,but don't be fooled she's one of

(01:13):
the most fun people we know,especially in real life, like
when we spent time together atLiving Dead Weekend.
She grew up in the riverbottoms of West Central Illinois
and now lives in Chicago withher husband Uli also an
excellent human and ourgoddaughter dog Data.
Her zombie obsession beganyoung, after Night of the Living
Dead, left her too scared tosleep alone for weeks.
Jo is a natural communitybuilder and the kind of person

(01:34):
you'd want in your corner inregular life, but even more so
in the apocalypse.
She's been on the show threetimes this year, including today
, because she is someone that we, and everyone who knows her,
cannot get enough of.
We are so thrilled to have youback on the Joe Show.

Speaker 1 (01:49):
I'm not even going to say that Welcome to the Joe
Show.
This is Welcome Zombie BookClub to the Joe.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
Show Welcome Joe.
How are you doing today?

Speaker 3 (02:02):
Oh, thank you so much for having me.
I am awesome.
I'm thrilled to be here.
This is going to be fun.
I'm really looking forward tothis conversation.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
Yeah, it's so nice.
We've been talking lots on theinternets with typings, with
words, but I haven't seen yourface in a while and it's just
very nice.

Speaker 3 (02:19):
It has been a minute.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
Yeah, yeah.
I want to get something out ofthe way right away, something
very serious, an accusation even.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
I don't know where this is going, Joe.

Speaker 1 (02:30):
Joe, we saw at Living Dead Weekend that you are the
owner of a wagon.

Speaker 3 (02:35):
I do drag a wagon.

Speaker 1 (02:38):
And I was reading your new book and Quinn,
resident psychopath, also owns awagon.
Is it the same wagon?

Speaker 3 (02:49):
I'll never tell.
I'm just kidding.
I'm just kidding.
It's not the same wagon, Dan.
I am not the same as Quinn.
Quinn and I are not the sameperson.
I promise different wagon.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
All right.
Well, I'm still skepticaldifferent person, different
wagon.

Speaker 2 (03:04):
In fact, I think that the wagon that you got for
Living Dead Weekend came afterprobably you wrote about Quinn's
wagon.
That is also true.
Yes, maybe inspired a littlebit.
Let's jump into our rapid firequestions for you.
Some of these might be familiar, but the first one was a twist.
I'm a little nervous.
You have room for five peoplein a canoe.
Who would Data pick, data thedog to go into the canoe with

(03:27):
her?

Speaker 3 (03:27):
Oh Data, she can't pick her humans, she can't pick
me.
She can pick whoever she wantsand her father.

Speaker 1 (03:34):
Anyone.
Everyone that she likes is in aline, in a lineup.

Speaker 2 (03:40):
There's godparents to take care of.
Here too, data, but it's Data'schoice.
I won't be offended.

Speaker 1 (03:45):
There are no balls available, so you cannot
manipulate Data's vote.

Speaker 3 (03:50):
Okay, wait, you said five, yeah, okay, she's going to
pick me.
She's going to pick her father,uli.
She's going to pick hergodparents, leah and Dan,
because of the special ball thatyou purchased for her and sent
to her.
She knows where it came from,she understands and she knows

(04:13):
that she knows who loves her.
Her fifth person let me thinkabout this for a second.
We have a neighbor.
About this for a second.
We have a neighbor, and she is,I think, about 10 years old.
Her name is Sophia, and Data isobsessed with Sophia.
Every time she comes out of thehouse, she runs over to the

(04:33):
fence.
Once belly rubs through thefence, I think she would
probably pick Sophia, that'samazing.

Speaker 1 (04:38):
I have terrible news.

Speaker 2 (04:41):
Oh see, I knew this was coming.

Speaker 1 (04:42):
Go on.
There's not room for fivepeople in the canoe.
Who does data leave behind todie you?

Speaker 2 (04:50):
can't pick.

Speaker 1 (04:50):
Sophia.
I can't pick Sophia, you can Imean you?

Speaker 2 (04:55):
could.

Speaker 3 (04:57):
Oh no, do you know what I think would happen?
You can call me cheating,whatever I think data would jump
out of the canoe herself andswim alongside, because she
loves the water.
In fact, today later we aregoing to the dog beach in
Chicago and she's going to goswim in the lake.
So I think she would jump outof the canoe and let us humans

(05:18):
stay inside and happily swimalong.

Speaker 2 (05:20):
I believe that she's a loyal pup.
The canoe was a death trap allalong.

Speaker 1 (05:23):
Everyone was doomed to die, and Data's now the only
survivor.

Speaker 2 (05:30):
Oh, I want to go to the dog beach.

Speaker 1 (05:31):
That sounds so fun, yeah let's go to the dog beach.

Speaker 3 (05:35):
It's a lovely, magical place Chicago has
everything that we loveapparently.

Speaker 2 (05:39):
Dog beaches.
Joe Uli Data Pizza.
What was that place where yougot us cake from?
That's the list.
Joe Uli Data Pizza.
What was that place?
Where you got us cake from.

Speaker 3 (05:45):
That's the list Pie Pie my Darling.
Pie Pie, my Darling.
Yeah, we do have it all here,except for the two of you.
Hint, hint.
You could come too we willvisit, we'll visit.

Speaker 1 (05:59):
Can we convince all of the good things about Chicago
to come and be within walkingdistance of our house?

Speaker 3 (06:07):
listen, you could transport things from chicago to
another place.
But chicago is a vibe and ifyou live here you know like it's
just, it's magic.
You have to be here.

Speaker 1 (06:17):
The only time I was in chicago, I went to a truck
stop that had a sabaro's andthat sabaro's gave me pizza that
made me very sick is that thevibe?

Speaker 3 (06:27):
there is that.
Wait, you must have been at thesuburbs it was going through
some it was.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
It was some pretty dense area I couldn't tell you
it's a big place, it's a placeI'd rather not go to be
perfectly honest.

Speaker 1 (06:42):
Next question yes, your family goes out to dinner,
very important dinner, like somekind of event but you don't
know what that event is becausethey didn't invite you.
They invited everybody else.
They even invited Data.
Can you believe that?

Speaker 2 (07:02):
Data is there.
I think you just skewed theanswer with saying that, okay,
maybe Data's not there, but therest of your data is there.

Speaker 1 (07:04):
I think you just skewed the answer with saying
that, okay, maybe data's notthere, but the rest of your
family is there.
Um, the zombie apocalypsebreaks out.
It's bad, you're somewhere else, your family's all like
downtown or wherever they wouldgo to celebrate whatever great
thing that they didn't inviteyou to do you still.
Do you save them?

(07:24):
Do you go to them, or what'syour plan?
Are they dead weight?

Speaker 3 (07:30):
I could not help but save them.
Even that's the thing about ourfamily like we can be really
mad at each other for a reallylong time and, when it comes
down to it, like we're gonna bethere for each other one of
these days, one of us is gonnacall the other and just act like
nothing ever happened, and soI'll be there if the zombie
apocalypse breaks out.

(07:51):
Even if they don't like me, inthat moment I'm coming for them.

Speaker 2 (07:55):
I'm picking the best montage of you with the machete
and data helping out with ulitoo, and like an that I'll be
their song playing in thebackground that.

Speaker 3 (08:02):
That sounds magical.
I love that.

Speaker 2 (08:07):
This one might also be familiar.
It's from a friend of yours.
You're left with two childrenunder the age of five that
aren't yours.
In the zombie apocalypse.
What do you do?

Speaker 3 (08:17):
I read that book.
I loved that book.
I imagined myself in thatscenario.
Man, I'm going to get canceledfor this.
I don't have children for areason.
I love other people's kids.
That's fine.
You can have kids.
I don't want them and I didn'twant those kids in this
hypothetical scenario, and I'mgoing to give them to somebody

(08:40):
else.
I think that's the most caringthing you can do yeah, I mean,
I'm not gonna kill them, it'sjust they can I.

Speaker 1 (08:47):
I will entrust their safety to at what point along
the line because I mean, we'retwo books into her series and,
like it's still going, she couldstill make that choice.
No, like when.
When do you make the choice?
Is it the first people you meet?
Do you make the choice?
Is it the first people you meet?
Do you vet people before youfind the right parents to pawn
these children off on?

Speaker 3 (09:09):
I would like to say that I wouldn't be very careful
about choosing their next home,but I fear that in the moment I
would panic and just be likehere you are alive.
Take these children and meet me, You're alive.

Speaker 1 (09:26):
You qualify.

Speaker 2 (09:27):
I resonate with this.
Yeah, I think the longer thatit's kind of like anything the
longer I'd have them in my care,the more I'd get attached, and
then I'd be like resentful thatI was attached to somebody who
chose to be child free.

Speaker 1 (09:39):
So I would do it as soon as possible yeah before.
They're like mama.
They're like Mama Leah and Joe,because you're in the
apocalypse together at thispoint.
You're both co-parentingAmazing.
They're like we love you.
You took the place of ourmother now and you're like I'm
still looking for somebody.
I don't want this role.

Speaker 3 (10:00):
No, because I know myself.
I have fostered quote unquote,a dog before and that dog became
my dog.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
And yeah, I know that if they stuck around too long I
would get in my feelings aboutit yeah, and then I would find
myself doing all the things myparents did that I promised
myself I would never do by nothaving children, and it would be
very.
It would be like a whole levelof apocalypse on top of the
apocalypse.

Speaker 3 (10:24):
Yes, yes, I actually made a video about Courtney's
book Babysitter of theApocalypse and how this is the
real life worst nightmarescenario that I could possibly
be in is being dropped into thatbook.
Apocalyptic, truly, yeah truly.

Speaker 1 (10:50):
Yeah, yeah, uh.
You are in elementary school.
Um, english classes.
It would be um.
I don't remember english classin elementary school.
Did we just like read picturebooks school?
We were in small schools.
We did letters.
That's what we did.
Anyways, you're in englishclass in elementary school.
Zombie apocalypse breaks out,like you're seeing it outside
and it's going to come inside.

Speaker 2 (11:07):
What are you going to do?

Speaker 1 (11:08):
What's your plan as an elementary school student?

Speaker 3 (11:13):
I'm going to get the school locked down to the best
of my ability, probablysomewhere near the cafeteria,
and wait it out.

Speaker 2 (11:22):
That is my plan 13-year-old Joe would have that
plan.
Yes, that's impressive.
Wait it out.

Speaker 3 (11:28):
Well, I think I don't remember being 13.
Do I remember being 13?
I guess that's like seventhgrade, yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:35):
Yeah, it would have to be 12 or under to be in
elementary school.

Speaker 3 (11:40):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
If I was 12-year-old me, maybeI would have just run home.
I don't know, but I feel likethe smartest, looking back, the
smartest thing, is to just likeshelter in place, right Like the
school has everything you need.
Yeah, I would think Got thecafeteria.

Speaker 1 (11:58):
I have a hard time imagining what school is like
now that there's active shooterdrills.
Kids know how to take theirbelt and wrap it around, the
little wingy ding on the doorWingy ding, yeah, the thing that
makes the door close slower andyou can wrap it around that so

(12:21):
people can't come in and stufflike that.
I'm thinking about myelementary school.
The cafeteria had a wall ofglass windows on one side and
I'm like that feels like a badidea.
Maybe the gym, but the gymdoesn't have any food, yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
You just maybe realize that children are more
prepared for the zombieapocalypse than ever in a school
setting, specifically becauseof all the horrifying lockdown
drills they have to do.
That's sad, but also, I guess,a strange silver lining.
If there is an actualapocalypse, yeah, or a shooting,
more importantly, well, thatwas dark.
Joe, how would you describe thelast year of your life since
releasing the Dead Weight, yourdebut novel?

Speaker 3 (12:59):
Oh, my gosh, the last year has been like.
I could not have imagined it inmy wildest dreams Like the last
time, or I guess, the firsttime we talked.
You guys, the rapid firequestion for me was would you
choose your 40 hour work week ordo you enter the zombie
apocalypse full time by writingabout it?

(13:28):
And I, I did, I did it, I.
I left my 40 hour work week tojust kick it into high gear and
focus on making the dead weighta thing.
And so I have spent the lastyear going to libraries and
doing signings and visitingschools and being on podcasts

(13:54):
and just doing everything I canto make this successful, while
also writing the second andthird book.
So it has been a dream cometrue.
It's been the best year of mylife, hands down, wow.

Speaker 2 (14:06):
Wow, like best and scariest, or just like what's
been the best and the worstHighlight reel, yeah.

Speaker 3 (14:12):
Well, I mean, I guess I need to be sensitive to the
fact that there are horrors thatpersist in real life this year,
so we'll be sensitive to that.
But, yes, this has been thebest year of my life and I think
one of the high points for me,honestly, like no smoke, was

(14:34):
being at Living Dead Weekend andbeing your roommate for four
days and getting able to meet somany other zombie authors and
zombie creators and filmmakersand just be in the mix with
people who get it.
This community is unlike anyother that I have been a part of
and that, to me, has just beenthe experience of a lifetime.

(14:58):
And there have been low points.
Course it's.
It's hard being an author andbeing your own marketer and
getting the the courage to talkabout your work and not cringe
at yourself while you do it likethat.
It's hard, but it's alsosomething that has really pushed

(15:19):
me in a way that I I didn'texpect to be pushed and I think
I've I've grown a lot from it.

Speaker 1 (15:26):
Yeah, it is a weird balance that we have to play now
, where it's like am I allowedto enjoy life when so much
horrible is happening?
And that's a hard thing tobalance.
And I feel that because I feellike at the very beginning I
mean not that there ever was abeginning, it's just continued,

(15:46):
but but like I had a hard timebeing able to take myself
seriously and actually like getwriting done, because I'm like,
well, look at what's going on,I've got a, I've got to run out
there and I don't know, dosomething yeah, it's hard, but
we have to balance.

Speaker 2 (16:05):
Like I think it's okay to be happy, like I've also
had a really, really good year,joe.
So I I feel that, and a bigpart of it for me, too, is the
community, and like the factthat it was almost a year to the
day, as you pointed out, thatwe were recording together the
first time, and now you're likesuch an important part of my
life and so are the others thatare part of our community.
Um, I mean, what's the point ofpushing forward if we don't

(16:26):
have ways that we can find joyand we're not always this joyful
like you don't always get thefirst year of jumping into the
zombie apocalypse head first,like you did and flying I don't
know if that metaphor works, butwe're gonna go with it.
Now there's a supernaturalzombie apocalypse where joe can
fly um, that's not gonna beevery year, right like there
could be this terrible shithappening externally, as well as

(16:47):
being the person who'spersonally a victim of it, or
just, uh, going through your ownpersonal life, shit.
So we got to celebrate while wecan, and I'm glad this is a
year that you can celebrate yeah, yeah, it's like you said it's.

Speaker 3 (17:00):
it's tough to see and experience what's happening,
but if we can't find joysomewhere, I think we'll all
crumble.
So that's where my head's at.

Speaker 2 (17:13):
Yeah, and not only are you having joy, but I think
you've given a lot of people joywith your stories.
We got a chance to read theDeadweight Resistance in advance
, lucky us.
I feel so lucky and I wasobsessed for the entire time I
read it.
I had to force myself to putthe book down and work.
As you know, because I alsolive, tweeted you basically my

(17:35):
reactions.
I forget where I was going.

Speaker 1 (17:41):
How cool we are that we got early access to the book.

Speaker 2 (17:46):
Start an awesome Zany Book Club podcast podcast.
You too will get advancedreader copies I can't promise
that for joe joe's books, but doyou think that you are a
different person now, havinglike left the the cage of the
40-hour work week and joinedinto this world of being like a
full-time author?

Speaker 3 (18:02):
Yeah, it's been such a strange experience for me
because I think I have spent myentire adult life with my
identity very entwined in mywork and my job and my career.
Like I mentioned, I don't havekids.
All I have done is focus onwork and in my early career as a

(18:26):
social worker I've reallyinternalized that part of myself
, like I am a helper, I am asocial worker, this is what I do
.
I care for others and as mycareer kind of progressed into
the field of healthcare andpatient experience.
Again, you know, it's just on adifferent level.
I'm here to care for people andto step away from that and step

(18:47):
away from that part of myidentity and just reset my mind
and how I think about work andtime and who I am as a person.
And I don't know that I havethe words to really express all

(19:18):
of that yet, but it's beenstrange, it's been a big shift
strange.

Speaker 1 (19:30):
It's a big shift.
I I can, I can relate, becauseevery every year my work ends,
um, right before thanksgiving.
Um, and my first year that Idid that, I remember having like
a mini crisis, that I wasn'tlike having a breakdown or
anything, but I'm just at worklike what guys, what do I, what
do I do when we're not doingthis anymore?
And they're like I don't know,file for unemployment because,
like, that's the plan, you filefor unemployment and then you go

(19:53):
back to work when you, whenthey ask you to, and, and at
first I'm just like I don't, Idon't know who I am, without
dedicating 100% of myself togrinding and digging dirt and
pulling stumps and banging onmetal and shit.
And, uh, I adapted prettyquickly once, once the I had a

(20:15):
few, few days of of being off,I'm like, okay, I feel better
now, um, but also I knew that Iwas going back.
I feel better now, but also Iknew that I was going back.
So I knew that I didn't have tofully give up that part of that
identity.
And one day I'm going to giveup all of it totally and say,
hey, I'm just writing a book nowand I'm going to be just like

(20:37):
Joe.

Speaker 2 (20:39):
Yeah, what would Joe?

Speaker 1 (20:40):
do?
I love that.

Speaker 2 (20:40):
So what would Keisha do, which we will talk about?
What would?

Speaker 3 (20:43):
Keisha do from book one.

Speaker 2 (20:45):
I love that.
So what would Keisha do, whichwe will talk about?
What would Keisha do from bookone?
I think what's amazing is that,like this idea of doing
something that was in some ways,first and foremost for you to
like write a story, to be astoryteller, actually gives joy
and does something for the restof the world.
That's what I was trying to say, that I got distracted by when
I was talking about how much Ilove your latest book is.
I really do believe and this isevidence that when you put your

(21:06):
heart into something thatmatters a lot to you, the people
who need it will find it and itwill make a difference in their
lives.
And it doesn't always have tobe like the obvious caretaking
role and support role thatyou've played in social work,
which I have no doubt that youhave helped many, many people in
that space, but you're still ahelper.
There's no question.

(21:29):
This most recent book had merethinking everything I thought
I knew about, what I thoughtshould or shouldn't be happening
in the apocalypse, and whatcommunity really meant, and how
do you decide who you belong to.
There's just so much that wasvery real, even if it's in a
fictional setting.
So I think that that point ofview and being able to share it
from that perspective of zombieapocalypse really does something
unique, feeds a part of my soulthat nothing else does.

Speaker 3 (21:48):
So I think that that point of view and being able to
share it from that perspectiveof zombie apocalypse really does
something unique, feeds a partof my soul that nothing else
does.
So I appreciate you for thatwould feel.
I really enjoy causing peopleto empathize with something that
they didn't think they wouldempathize with, or trying to

(22:14):
share a new perspective thatfeels a little bit uncomfortable
to try on.
It's one of my favorite thingsabout writing stories and I'm
glad that you felt that, even ifit was a little uncomfortable,
I'm sorry, but I'm glad that itcame through that way.

Speaker 2 (22:33):
That's what made it great, though, is that I was
uncomfortable.
I'm like who am I?
What do I really think?
What are my values?
I'm not sure anymore.
It gave me a lot of things tothink about.
So for those who have somesense of the dead weight and now
they're dying to get theirhands on the dead weight
resistance, tell us a little bitabout what it's sorry.
Tell us a little bit about whatit is about.
Why can't I say it speak, youknow what?

(22:54):
Leave it like that.

Speaker 3 (22:55):
Joe, what's your?

Speaker 2 (22:55):
book about.

Speaker 3 (22:59):
What's the book about ?
Ok, so if you have already readbook one, great proceed.
If you have not read book oneyet, we might be spoiling a few
things in the next few lines.
So when book one ends, we findQuinn alone.
She is out on the river still.

(23:21):
She um really emotionallydevastated and she is also
injured.
And this is all first chapterstuff, so it's not too much of a
spoiler.
It's also on the back of thebook, so you know it's fine it's
what one years off for the mostpart.

Speaker 1 (23:37):
Yeah, like it's the day after, isn't it?

Speaker 3 (23:40):
book two is the morning after.
Yeah, one ends, so it'simmediate.
So she wakes up, she's injured,she is emotionally devastated
by what has just happened andshe needs help.
She needs companionship, sheneeds medical assistance, and if

(24:00):
she doesn't get it, there's avery real possibility that her
leg could become infected andshe could die.
So she is forced to go downtown, st Louis, about a square mile
of the city, and someone has toprotect those walls.

(24:32):
There are people who we callrovers, who are assigned to
protect those walls, and thenpeople who are either in debt or
have committed a crime orbroken the rules in some way,
who are sentenced to serve on arover squad.
When Quinn arrives in New City,she needs medical help.

(24:52):
She can't pay for it, so shebecomes one of those people who
serve on a rover squad and topay back her debt, and so that's
where we find her, in what wecall the pit, a terrible place.

Speaker 2 (25:08):
For some, for some.

Speaker 1 (25:11):
Yeah, unless you like that sort of thing.

Speaker 3 (25:13):
Unless you're into it .

Speaker 1 (25:17):
But who could possibly like such a place?

Speaker 2 (25:20):
Starts with a let's do a wordle.
I think Quinn is five letters.
Q-u-i-n-n.
Quinn could be a wordle answer.
Think quinn is five letter.
Q u I n n.

Speaker 1 (25:26):
Quinn could be a wordle answer yeah, it's gonna
be my starter word I don't thinkthat's a very helpful starter
word q doesn't come up veryoften, maybe maybe the worst
starter word you're repeatingletters.

Speaker 2 (25:40):
You've got a q got two vowels, though, and you and
I.
You need an e, an, a.
Sorry, I have strong opinionsabout a first word, only word,
but that is not what we're herefor um canoe, canoe yeah what's
your first wordle word, joe?

Speaker 3 (25:56):
it changes every day.

Speaker 1 (25:58):
I always choose a different one what I absolutely,
what I absolutely loved aboutResistance no spoilers is that
when I came into the book, Ithought I knew who Quinn was and
I had expectations goingforward and I'm like, okay, you
know, let's see what happensthis time.

(26:19):
You know I had expectations andthen Quinn shifted I wouldn't
say blew away my expectations,but shifted them enough that I
was just like that was different.

Speaker 3 (26:31):
I think your observation, dan.
Again, this is really somethingthat I hoped readers would
experience when I was writingthis, because I think the dead
weight is about a lot of things,but as I'm writing it, it's
very much about identity and howyou see yourself and how other
people see you and how thatimpacts the choices that you

(26:54):
make.
And I think Quinn is nodifferent in that experience.
In book one she has been toldwho she is and she has received
her identity from other peoplethrough the way that they have
interacted with her in the courtsystem her foster parents, the
staff at the Pegasus Center.
She's read her own chart,secretly, right, and so she

(27:18):
knows what people believe she isand she has internalized that
and owned it.
When she leaves the PegasusCenter and we're moving into
book two territory here when sheleaves the Pegasus Center and
there is no longer anyone whoknows who she is no one who can
look up her chart, no one whocan look up her chart, no one
who can find her in somedatabase somewhere and figure

(27:40):
out who she is she has a chanceto completely start over and
form her own identity.
And that is, I think, the coreof the deadweight.
Resistance is we get to watchsomeone figure out who they are
in the zombie apocalypse?

Speaker 2 (27:57):
The best place to find out who you are.
I remember you saying in ourfirst interview that people are
more than their diagnosis and asa social worker who's worked in
residential facilities, likewhere Quinn starts out in the
Pegasus Center you've hadfirsthand experience with people
with pretty severe diagnosesand I think this was the book
that I really got that Even inthe first book there was still

(28:18):
some degree of labeling withQuinn.
I think that's kind of what youwere referring to, dan, in my
brain.
And what the second book didfor me was realize like Quinn is
a Quinn as a full, full person,as a person who has the
capacity to actually changeMaybe not completely like
there's some core programming um, we all have our core program,

(28:40):
yeah that's true and that's achoice right, but I guess even
more.
Maybe that's what it is, thatshe's a person with agency.
Yeah, um, and that was really,really powerful, because one of
the brilliant things about yoursecond book is that you have us
questioning or at least I'll saymy experience there.
There's choices Quinn has tomake about who she is and who
she wants to be like, where shewants to be in community, and

(29:02):
the answer that I wouldtypically assume I would want
someone to go towards I didn'tknow if that was right for Quinn
.
I really didn't.
I couldn't figure out what wasthe right path for her, and you
really had us on that razor edgepretty much the whole time,
which was amazing.
Oh, thank you.

Speaker 3 (29:18):
I'm glad that that was your experience in the book.
That was what I was trying todo.
It's always nice when yourwriting has the impact you
intend, and sometimes it doesnot, but it's really.
This is the first time that I'mhaving the opportunity to hear
other people react, and so thisis a fun experience for me.

(29:40):
Thank you for this.
What an honor for us.

Speaker 2 (29:43):
When did you realize that the story could not stop at
book one?

Speaker 3 (29:55):
when we talked the first time, you asked me is
there going to be a book too?
And I think my answer wassomething along the lines of
like well, if the world wants it, and um, I knew that there was
more to this story.
I, I knew that there was morethat I wanted to tell Um, and I
I learned from you know, booktalk and bookstagram, like
people did want more and um, andthat's kind of the moment where

(30:17):
I was like all right, I'll doit.
And um, I have been accused of,I've been accused of leaving
the dead weight on a cliffhanger.
I deny this with my whole soul.
I I think of a cliffhanger, asyou know.
Like the joker has batman inthe dungeon and like, will he

(30:38):
survive?
Tune in for next week, likethat's not what I did.

Speaker 2 (30:42):
That's not what I did .

Speaker 1 (30:44):
That's not what you did, I agree, time same, quinn I
100.

Speaker 2 (30:49):
I'll stand behind you on that, joe.
I don't think it was acliffhanger, but I think people
thought of it that way becausethey're desperate to know what
she was going to do next.

Speaker 1 (30:56):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (30:57):
But I love that people wanted more.
I love that people wanted tofind out what happened next.
And you know I had so much funwriting book two.
I had planned to stop at booktwo it was going to be a duology
and then our mutual friend,courtney Constantine, who's
written a million fantasticzombie books, she was, like you

(31:20):
know, readers really do like tofollow you on that journey and
like, if you can write more, youshould write more.
And I was like, could I writemore?
And then, when I came close tofinishing book two, I was
thinking there is a third actfor Quinn, there is another
evolution of her identity thatwe really have to get to in

(31:42):
order to put this story to areally satisfying ending for the
reader.
And so you're hearing it herefirst, maybe, for there's going
to be a book three and it'scoming soon.

Speaker 2 (31:56):
How soon is soon, Because I need it now.
Joe, no pressure.

Speaker 3 (32:00):
Okay.
So I think I am a few days awayfrom finishing draft one, and
it's bad, it's not, it's, it'snot good.
I have to fix a hundred things,but I think I might be close to
getting that first draft atleast out of the way so that I
can start to make it better.

Speaker 1 (32:19):
that's incredible how bad is bad when you have your
first draft asking for a friend?

Speaker 3 (32:26):
I wouldn't show it to anyone for any amount of
dollars.
Oh, I feel that it's reallyembarrassing and I'll have to
fix it is it?

Speaker 1 (32:35):
is it kind of sound like?
And then, uh, quinn went into aroom and there was a zombie and
quinn sliced the zombie the endof this chapter, and then we
move.

Speaker 3 (32:46):
Yeah, it's just chapter three really terrible
dialogue and um, it's.
Yeah, there's so much work tobe done, but getting that first
draft out is always the hardestpart for me, and my favorite
part of writing is probably thethird and fourth draft.

(33:08):
I love that editing, that deepediting process.
I hate putting the first drafttogether.
It's so hard for me.

Speaker 2 (33:16):
Did you know when you wrote book two or when you
finished book one?
People are asking for book two.
Did you have an idea of what itwas going to be, and then same
with book three, or does it cometo you like over time as you're
writing?

Speaker 3 (33:33):
It comes to me over time.
I knew that Quinn had to end upin St Louis for book two
because that's where the rivergoes and no choice Geography.
So I knew where she was goingand I knew that if she was going
to a big city there wouldinevitably be some kind of a
society that was left over, andI imagined what that could be
like.
I did not know how the bookwould end until I got to the end

(33:57):
.
I didn't know a lot of thefiner details that would happen.
That all get smoothed out indrafts.
You know three, four, five, 27.
So I never know how it's goingto go.
I pants the whole thing.
I can't do an outline to savemy life.
So it's just as much a surpriseto me as it is to you guys.

Speaker 2 (34:20):
So you were stressing yourself out in the will, she
won't.
She questions.

Speaker 3 (34:25):
Oh, always, always.
And there's a will they won'tthey in book one.
There is also a little bit of awill they won't they in in book
two.
I wonder how people will feelabout that.

Speaker 2 (34:38):
I'm I'm anxious to hear I can tell you how I feel
about it offline.

Speaker 1 (34:42):
I can't say it too many things I was satisfied.
I feel like I feel like quinnis full of will.
She won't.
She questions at all times.
Yeah, about a About a variousnumber of things, not just
romance.
Yes, her decisions tend to comeas a complete shock, like if

(35:03):
you're not paying attention fromline to line, you might miss it
and be like wait, what justhappened?
I have to go back a paragraph.

Speaker 3 (35:12):
Yes, she is.
On the surface.
Quinn is a very impulsivecharacter who seems to just go
off.
But one of the things that Ilove about Quinn and this is
true from book one to book twoand will be true in book three
Quinn will always tell youexactly who she is.
Tell you exactly who she is,and you might be surprised when

(35:35):
she does it, but if you lookback, she has laid the
groundwork and told you exactlywhat will happen.

Speaker 2 (35:45):
It's just not maybe what we would expect.
I think that's very clear andthat was.
I think you mentioned thisearlier.
One of the things that I lovedabout the book is just seeing
people's projections onto her ofwho they wanted her to be.
Some of them.
So I'm like like are you, doyou see who's in front of you?
Like you are totally deluded.
Um on many sides, yeah, like notjust I can't say much more than
that, but just many people haddecided who quinn was and

(36:05):
treated her accordingly, and youcould see how frustrating that
was.
And having an opportunity likethis was her opportunity for a
new start.
And yet it wasn't, because theywere just filtering other
things on top of her, like she'sa young teenage girl.
There's all these assumptionsthere.
Poor Quinn, poor, fragile Quinn.

Speaker 1 (36:24):
I am so sorry she had to go through so many things
and do all the things that shehad to do.
That must've been really hardfor her.

Speaker 3 (36:32):
Oh, the empathy that you have for Quinn is.
I'm loving this.
I can't tell if you're jokingor not, Dan.

Speaker 1 (36:42):
I mean, she is a fellow wagon dragger, so I'm on
her team as somebody who owns awagon.

Speaker 3 (36:51):
I love that.

Speaker 1 (36:52):
The dragon wagons.

Speaker 3 (36:55):
I'm going to make new merch with wagons.

Speaker 1 (36:57):
The New City Dragon Wagon Draggers.

Speaker 3 (37:02):
New City Wagon Drag.
I love that.
I would also wear a merch.
I'm going to make it just so Ican wear it, and I'll send one
to you.

Speaker 1 (37:13):
There are a few wagon draggers in New City.
There's one near the end, not aspoiler.
I mean it is for those who know.
Yeah, if you know, you know.

Speaker 3 (37:28):
I think we've established that if you have not
read book one, you should notbe listening to this
conversation, because there willbe book one spoilers.
There have to be.
But, um, I mean, everyone frombook one is gone, um, except we
do have one little cameo Ireally hope that that person

(37:49):
shows up again.

Speaker 2 (37:51):
I don't know if you want to talk about it, joe and
will they have a wagon?

Speaker 3 (37:56):
See, I don't even know they might.
They might come back, we'll see.

Speaker 2 (38:01):
Who are some of the new characters you're most
excited about people meeting inbook two?

Speaker 3 (38:06):
Yes, and almost all of the characters are new this
time.
So I think my favoritecharacters that you will get to
meet are Archer and Hera, andboth of them are rovers.
And the other character thatI'm really excited for people to
meet is Amy, who is a fellowdebtor, and she is with Quinn in

(38:27):
the pit and becomes one of herclosest allies.
So I think those are thecharacters that I'm most excited
for people to dissect and tryand understand.

Speaker 2 (38:37):
I am compelled to say that Joe is saying debtor like
d-e-b-t-o-r, because I heardthat I was like debtor wait, is
she a deadhead?
I was like.

Speaker 1 (38:47):
I know that you're talking about.
She's indebted.
Yeah, she's also a debtor.
That's her job in the pit.
You're a debtor, which meansyou're basically dead.

Speaker 2 (38:55):
Yeah, and amy's a fellow badass like quinn.
She's got a whole set of knives.

Speaker 3 (39:00):
You don't fuck with amy, yes I would not mess with
amy not for one second.
Um, she is fierce and I lovethat about her.
She, um, she is in her mid-20s.
She graduated from from fashionschool and has fashioned
herself this like harness withknives down her ribs, and she

(39:22):
has no fear out there and Quinnreally loves getting to know her
.
And I really love therelationships that Quinn has in
this book and, in particular,the relationship dynamic between
Quinn and Amy and how Quinn isable to connect with someone who
actually cares about her withno strings attached, and it's

(39:46):
cool to watch how she reacts tothat.

Speaker 2 (39:50):
Can you say more?
Or you don't want to spoil it.

Speaker 3 (39:53):
I'm intentionally being vague, don't want to spoil
it.

Speaker 1 (39:55):
I'm intentionally being vague I was not to spoil I
really love that she is is afashion designer because, like I
love apocalyptic fashion and Idon't think it's talked about
enough, and especially in thestories.
Usually, like when you'rereading a story, you don't get a
whole lot of detail about, like, what they're wearing or
anything.
But I want to know, I want toknow about all the knife pouches

(40:16):
.
I want to know how you taketires and add them to your
leather jacket to make themzombie bite proof.

Speaker 2 (40:24):
I want to know these things and I want to know how
cool it looks I think this iswhere I have to say that my
oldest sister's name, uh, wasamy and she also went to fashion
design school.
And I don't know if you knewthat when you made that choice,
joe, but I did not know that shewent to fashion school.
She did, and she would haveabsolutely made some badass,
apocalyptic shit, although herfocus was children's swear, but

(40:47):
anyways, apocalyptic children'sbrand, um, but yeah, I, I will
say that I had like an affectionfor amy right from the
beginning.
Just as soon as I saw the nameum and the vibe so, and the fact
that she's such a badass, I waslike this is cool.
So to learn that little detailof the fashion design, like, wow
, the universe is funnysometimes.

(41:07):
That's wild.
Yeah, I, I love that.

Speaker 1 (41:11):
I'm telling you telepathy also one of the
characters, one of thecharacters in my book.
I've've been calling Amy for areally long time.
Sorry, it's.
It's one of the ones that Irenamed several times until one
just stuck.
I just.

Speaker 2 (41:25):
I just kept making up new names and I mean Amy's a
common name.
I think you can keep it.
I got to change I got to change.

Speaker 3 (41:31):
I think you can keep it too, or maybe spell it in a
different way.

Speaker 1 (41:35):
Yeah, look, no spoilers because I'm so far out
at this point, but there's somesimilarities.

Speaker 2 (41:43):
Weird.
Is there like a universalarchetype of Amy's?

Speaker 1 (41:45):
As I'm reading this, I'm like God damn it, joe.

Speaker 3 (41:49):
Listen, everything is .
I think I heard Taylor Swiftquoting someone else today in a
real because this.

Speaker 2 (41:58):
This is where it's going.

Speaker 3 (41:59):
Taylor swift okay it's always gonna come back to
taylor.
Swift, if you're talking to me,all roads lead to taylor swift
but I heard her say likeeverything is copy, but there
there's very little that isoriginal and so I mean we're
writing in the same genre,there's going to be similarities

(42:20):
.
Sometimes I read an apocalypticnovel and I'm like, oh dang it.
I remember watching that mallepisode of the Last of Us and
watching the dynamic betweenEllie and I don't recall Riley.
Okay, riley, okay, yes.
I remember their dynamic and Iremember turning to Uli on the

(42:43):
couch and saying damn it, thatis Quinn and Keisha.
And he's like don't worry aboutit, it's going to be fine.
And he's right.
No one would look back at thatepisode and be like, oh, itinn,
and like she copied.
I didn't like it wasn't theintention, but just by nature of
writing in that genre andcreating in that genre.

(43:04):
We are going to overlap all ofus at some point and it's just
part of it.

Speaker 2 (43:09):
You know well, it's the human experience I mean,
like, if you think about it,most of not most of us, a lot of
us have very you know, there'ssome basics that happen to every
human uh, love, hopefully beingone of them being born, dying,
having problems, having peoplewho raise you, um, and we're all
going through similar stuff.
But it's also incredibly uniqueand I think that that's like

(43:30):
storytelling too, becauseeverybody's story is unique, but
there's going to becommonalities.
It's unavoidable.
But I do kind, do, kind of.
I just want to pretend, and letme, let me be woo woo for a
moment and say that there's auniversal Amy archetype out
there Fashion designer badassthat's.
I'm just going to believe thatforevermore.

Speaker 1 (43:47):
Now, yeah, I'm not surprised that there might be
some some crossover with some ofour themes because, like you
are writing about being part ofthis institution, like that's.
That's, that's the like, thecore driving element.
I think that we talked aboutthis a bit in a previous
interview where I made theconnection that, because I was

(44:10):
in the army, I also experienceda lot of the same things that
Quinn experienced while insidethe facility.
A lot of those techniques areuniversal between dealing with
patients who you can't trust notto stab you in the back and
people you recruit to hold arifle.

(44:31):
They're similar.
So, uh, I I feel like I feellike a lot of our stuff is
coming from a very similar typeof of source yeah, and then you
made a surprising.

Speaker 2 (44:43):
I mean this is a parallel for me.
Um, I shouldn't say you, Ithink you made it, but well, you
did, you wrote it.
The parallel that came up forme was that new city was its own
form of institution and therewere rules and there were things
that Quinn had to do and insome ways that was really
familiar for her, but it wasalso really cloistering.
So can you tell us a little bitabout the characters that she

(45:06):
interacted from theinstitutional side of New City?

Speaker 3 (45:09):
Yes, and I think that I worried sometimes that I was
being a little bit on the nose,but the pit in particular, which
is its own microcosm within NewCity, is 100% a parallel to the
Pegasus Center, down to thepoint where when Quinn is at the

(45:32):
Pegasus Center there are 12girls on that unit.
She walks into the pit andthere are 11 other people there
with her.
She is one of 12.
I really like under punishmentsin an attempt to force the
behavior people want to see,whether it be in the Pegasus
Center, in the pit, beyond thepit, in New City at large.
That's really what it comesdown to and I think that I

(46:15):
hesitate to say it's not aspoiler.
It'll still be fun to read.
But Quinn doesn't see thatparallel clearly at first.
She sees the pit and new cityas her opportunity at freedom
and doesn't immediatelyrecognize all of the parallels.
But we get to watch her learnthose things and find those

(46:38):
things along the way and I thinkthat's part of the fun, at
least for me.

Speaker 2 (46:42):
And also why.
At first it seems like this isfun for Quinn, because there's a
difference.
Now she's choosing to be a newcity, even if there are the
parallels happening.

Speaker 1 (46:51):
Something that I'm just realizing now is because I
didn't draw those connectionsthe number of people in the pit,
the segregation between the pitand the rest of society.
I mean, the point system wasthere and that made sense.
But when I was looking at itI'm like, oh yeah, all of this

(47:11):
makes sense because she'sbasically joining the army.

Speaker 2 (47:16):
Again, projection of your own experience, which is
what we inevitably do as humans.

Speaker 1 (47:20):
The pit.
That's just your training unit.
You're on base.
You're not allowed to be amongthe civilians.
You're being rewarded orpunished based on your merits.

Speaker 2 (47:34):
You know what else is like the army?
Just hit me the fact that quinnand amy are the only women out
of those 12 and I'd love for youto share a little bit more
about, um, that dynamic and whatyou were hoping listener at
listeners, what you were hopingreaders are going to take away
from that experience of quinnand am, amy amidst 10 other guys

(47:54):
in a basically locked up withthem.

Speaker 3 (47:57):
Yes, and they're on separate sides of the pit right
and in the pit they are.
The pit is essentially an oldlocker room inside of a stadium
in St Louis, so inside of theselocker rooms there are communal
showers and things that makebeing in a co-ed environment a

(48:24):
little bit uncomfortable forQuinn and perhaps even a little
bit dangerous for the women whoare in that situation and that
environment in the pit.
I kind of imagined it mirroringsociety in general and some of
like the, the dangers that existfor women in the real world, in

(48:51):
this tiny microcosm of thislarger society.
It was not fun to write thoseparts and that dynamic and those
gender differences, differencesand, um, and the experience of
women in in the pit.
Um, we don't see anythingterribly ugly on the surface.

(49:14):
Some of it is kind of justimplied.
Um, but because it is a YA book, right, yeah, Um, but you can,
you can sense Amy's and Quinn'sdiscomfort in the pit and that
sense of it's us against them.
We don't think you're safe.
Even if they see something,they might not say something.

(49:38):
They're not here to protect you.
We have to protect each otherand I think that is one
important moment that bonds thetwo of them.

Speaker 2 (49:47):
Um, yeah, the risk that the risks that amy and
quinn experience as women in afacility with a bunch of men,
like you said, reflect, uh, Ithink, the experience of women
all over the world at this point, um, and it's more obvious in
that setting, because they'retrapped and they're in this
space where they have to be likesharing bathrooms, like you

(50:07):
said with, with these guys whoare pretty rough.
But there are other characters,there's other men that Quinn
interacts with and Amy interactswith in settings that maybe
don't seem as immediately Is ittoo strong of a word to say
misogynistic, but there, butthere, but she's still battling
that pretty much anywhere shegoes.
I'm curious.
I don't know how to make it aquestion, I'm just going to

(50:29):
leave it with.
She's still battling that andI'll let you respond.

Speaker 3 (50:32):
Yeah, I think Quinn is even at the end of the world.
There is misogyny, there areassumptions made about who you
are and what you are able to do,and I think that it's not a
scenario that is unique to womenand girls by any means, but I

(50:55):
think just about every girl andwoman that I have known has
experienced misogyny and beingunderestimated because of who
you are and what you look like.
And I think we see Quinnconfront that head on.
And one of my favorite thingsabout Quinn is that when she

(51:16):
experiences someoneunderestimating her, she doesn't
blink, she doesn't doubtherself, she never says to
herself well, maybe they'reright.
She's like, huh, they don't getit, they don't see me, but they
will, and that's okay.
And it's one of my favoritethings about Quinn, because I
think a lot and I'm guilty ofthis too A lot of times we

(51:41):
internalize other people'sopinions about us and we think,
well, that person believes thatit must be true, or at least a
little bit true.
But Quinn kind of shows us thatno people can be very, very
wrong about you, and I like that.

Speaker 2 (51:59):
I love it Mostly from the point of view of like.
Wouldn't it have been nice tobe 16, turning 17, right In this
book?
I hope it's's not spoiled thatit's her birthday.
She gets to celebrate herbirthday in new city.
Uh, to be that age and havethat sense of these people have
it wrong versus the entire worldis telling you.
This is how it is.
Also, there are a variety of ummen, but also women, that are

(52:24):
doing things that aren't reallyappropriate and are a little
weird, and and I guess I shouldjust accept that because that's
what the world is and it's thetruth, because why else would it
be that way?
I'm the one who's uncomfortable, so I'm the problem, and it was
just refreshing to have someonewho was clearly not having it.
I'm curious if that was likedid you have that kind of

(52:46):
awareness as a young person?
Was it something that you wereexcited to explore, that
somebody had?

Speaker 3 (52:51):
I didn't know.
I received everyone'sprotection that they gave to me.
Like I, I I did not haveQuinn's self-assuredness, but I
think that you know there's.
I've had a lot of people ask melike are you Quinn?
Like, do you like?
Is any part of you in her?
Do you own a wagon?

(53:12):
Do I own a?
See, you did it too.
But my answer is always like,no, I am nothing like Quinn.
Quinn is not me.
We are not the same person.
But I think the part of why Ilove writing Quinn so much, why
it is so fun to get to step intothe shoes of someone who is

(53:32):
allowed to be completely selfish, completely out for herself,

(53:55):
completely disregarding theopinions and the expectations
yeah, the rules of like everyoneshe comes into contact with,
she doesn't care.
She comes into contact with,she doesn't care.
And I know that.
I growing up and just being aperson in the world, I've been

(54:17):
taught to be very.
You must be empathetic, youmust be a caregiver, you must
take care of other people'sfeelings, you must always be
considerate.
And while I don't resent that,I value that part of myself.
But isn't it kind of nice tolet it go just while you're in
the pages with Quinn and justlive life on the edge like that.

(54:38):
I think that that's what peoplereally feel when they're with
her, and that's what I enjoymost about writing her.

Speaker 2 (54:47):
Don't want to take away from the power of what you
just said, because I neverthought it was a vacation, but
it's true.
And not only is it a vacationbut it's also like.
I have empathy for quinn.
I see her point of view and Idon't think she's totally wrong
and maybe there's some, there'ssome wisdom there to take away.

Speaker 1 (55:02):
I'm not saying as extreme as quinn I mean but
there's wisdom you know they'remaking their own rules at this
point, like the rules of societyare kind of gone.
Unless you're in a place likenew city, like she's, she's
allowed to explore her own, herown way of doing things, even if
it does come at the expense ofother people.

(55:24):
You know that's hers to figureout people.
You know that's hers to figureout.
So like that I mean is is itright of quinn to be able to
make, uh, moral choices forherself at the expense of others
at this point?

Speaker 2 (55:38):
I mean, haven't we all?
I'm gonna raise my hand rightnow, even though y'all can't see
it.
I'll do it for you too, becauseyou can.
Uh, I have made choices whereI've said this is me or them,
and I have to choose me rightnow yeah I have, I have to, um,
and I knew that that is me orthem, and I have to choose me
right now.

Speaker 1 (55:53):
Yeah, I have to, and I knew that that would hurt the
other person and I had to belike I'm really sorry, this is
going to hurt you, but I willdrown if I stay in X situation
or if I don't stand up formyself here, and maybe not as
extreme as what Quinn does.
But everybody at some point intheir life is faced with a moral
question like that where theyhave to say do I do something to
make somebody else comfortableor do I do something for myself

(56:16):
to make sure that I make itthrough to the end?
It's not so different.

Speaker 2 (56:21):
This is the epitome of the kinds of conversations I
love to have and why I lovezombie fiction, and I just want
to say again thank you formaking a book that made me die
on the inside, waiting to beable to just talk with somebody
about it, and I think in thefuture I would love to do an
episode for people who have just.
Maybe it's even a bonus episodeor a private episode for people

(56:42):
who have read the book or justtalk.
I just need to talk about itwith other people, basically
Because it's got me thinking somany things that are not when my
brain normally works.

Speaker 3 (56:51):
I'm so glad that you feel that way, and I have been
dying to talk to anybody aboutthis book.
My process in writing is not toshare it with anyone except my
editors.
Until you read this, the onlypeople who read it were my
editors.

(57:11):
You're the first people tofinish it and I have been dying
to talk to anybody about it.
It comes out in 19 days and Istill have no idea what readers
are going to think.
And is that reckless?
A little bit Like?
Wouldn't other authors be likeyou?
Crazy, maybe?
I don't know, I'm still new atthis, but this is I'm all that

(57:33):
to say.
I really appreciate theopportunity to have this
conversation.

Speaker 2 (57:36):
I've I've been waiting for it oh, I love that
you're doing the publishingthing your way.
That's very Quinn of you alittle bit.
I think I've been saying a lotthe last week.
I'm like everybody has a littlebit of Quinn in them and you
got to pull your inner Quinn out, sometimes as much as Quinn
pulls out her inner Keisha, whois the opposite of Quinn.
Well, in some ways.

Speaker 1 (57:58):
Read the first book, if you haven't.

Speaker 3 (58:00):
Different tactics yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:01):
Different tactics.

Speaker 3 (58:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think that this really doessum up a lot of the reactions
that I have gotten from readersafter book one.
I've gotten a really broadspectrum of reactions.
I have had people come out andsay you know, I love Quinn, I am

(58:24):
Quinn, I get her Like that's mygirl Amazing.

Speaker 1 (58:29):
How do you feel when somebody says I am Quinn, I'm
her, like she, that's my girl,amazing.
How do you feel when somebodysays I am Quinn?

Speaker 3 (58:32):
I'm like all right.
Hey, they're being realapocalypse, see you there, like
I'll be on your team, um.
But but also some people have,and some people are like you
know what?
It really made me think maybeI'm more like her than I thought
, which is great.
There are also people whoreally see Quinn as a kind of a

(58:54):
lost lamb who just needs someoneto care for her and love her.
And then there are people whohave lit up the reviews to say
like I hate her and I wish shewould die.
The spectrum is broad, but Ireally like that.
Everyone has had differentreactions to her, because I

(59:15):
think that your reaction toQuinn probably has a lot to do
with who you are and what you'reworking on inside, and there's
no right way to react to Quinn.
Every way is valid.
But it's interesting to me tosee that spectrum.

Speaker 2 (59:35):
Yeah, I think the key here is that you made a
character that people react tostrongly in some kind of way,
and that's what's powerful.
I've always said, even if Ireally hate a character, it
probably means it's an excellentstory.
If I hate them that badly, if Ilove them, same thing.

Speaker 1 (59:51):
I'm so sorry to those people who wanted Quinn to be a
different person than she wasand then is disappointed by that
.
It must be very hard for themto see somebody being somebody
that they don't want them to beand not be able to change that.

(01:00:12):
So my heart goes out to thosepeople.

Speaker 3 (01:00:15):
The empathy Dan again .

Speaker 2 (01:00:18):
Well, don't writers have to be like deeply
empathetic?

Speaker 3 (01:00:23):
I think so, Dan what do you think?

Speaker 1 (01:00:25):
I think some people can string along words in a
sentence.

Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:00:33):
But I think to be a good storyteller, you got to put
yourself in people's shoes, youhave to feel what they feel,
and you have to experienceeverything from their eyes, and
without empathy you just can'tdo that.

Speaker 3 (01:00:45):
I agree.

Speaker 1 (01:00:47):
You've confirmed book three is coming.
Um, I feel I would feel upsetif there was no book four, but I
gotta, I gotta imagine it'sgotta end somewhere.
Like what, what happens whenquinn is done telling us stories
?
What like, do you keep going?

(01:01:08):
Is there?
Is there somebody new?

Speaker 2 (01:01:12):
is there somebody already waiting in your brain to
like come out?
Or on paper somewhere?

Speaker 3 (01:01:16):
in book three is there, let me make sure I
understand.

Speaker 2 (01:01:20):
I thought we were talking about after book three.

Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
No, yeah, after, after guys I'm not.

Speaker 3 (01:01:26):
I'm not done yet I'm worried that.

Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
I'm not going to have more after book three.
I'm having like that.
You know how like you'rewatching a series on Netflix and
you're on the second to lastepisode and you're like, fuck,
what happens after that?
Is this the end of the seasonor the end of the series?
Will the creators make aspinoff of this show or do they

(01:01:49):
go on to like some other genre,but like something that I don't?
I don't want to, I don't wantto like, I just want the zombie
are you asking if quinn is ornot quinn?

Speaker 2 (01:01:58):
wow, I'm so sorry, I just did it to you.
That's terrifying, although Iwill say I have dysnomia.
It's real, it's word retrievalwith nouns.
Anyways, joe Joe Quinn, joe,joe, joe, joe, are you going to?
Basically what Dan wants toknow is are you going to betray
us all and write something otherthan a zombie fiction book?

Speaker 3 (01:02:19):
Oh, that's a good question.
I don't think so.
I don't think so.
Actually, this question was oneof the most common questions I
got when I was touring highschools was will you ever write
anything else?
Also, it's future I will bewriting more zombie apocalypse.
I have a Chicago zombieapocalypse series that I've

(01:02:55):
already started that I'm notworking on currently because I'm
Thank you.
That's so nice of you.

Speaker 1 (01:03:03):
The anxiety that just lifted off of me.
I was starting to sweat.

Speaker 3 (01:03:08):
No, I think I will always write Zombie Apocalypse,
because it's the whole reason Istarted writing in the first
place.
It is my favorite genre.
It is where my brain livesforever.
I want to live in that world.
The Chicago apocalypse that I'mimagining is the same carrier.

(01:03:31):
It's the same apocalypse thatQuinn experienced just in
Chicago.
I don't think those characterswill ever cross paths because
they're heading in oppositedirections.
Right, quinn's going south,chicago is north.
So I look forward to writing inthat world.
I think if I were to stepoutside of zombie apocalypse, it

(01:03:54):
would be into some kind ofdystopian world.
I love dystopian fiction.
So even if there weren'tzombies, there would still be
like, what is this world andwhat has happened?
But I've also got a couple ofnovellas, I think, that might
spring from the dead.

(01:04:15):
We still don't know whathappened to the boys unit, what
happened to them, and I've had acouple of people say well, what
happened on the casino shipbefore the girls got there?
Like, what was that?
What did they encounter?
What even happened?
So I think I'm going to have tofollow through and tell readers
what happened there.

Speaker 1 (01:04:36):
Do you do a boy on the bridge and go back and tell
the story where you know thateveryone dies a horrible death
at the end because you alreadyknow that they were there?

Speaker 3 (01:04:49):
Mm-hmm, exactly, horrible death at the end,
because you already know thatthey were there, exactly I.
I didn't think I was going tohave to explain that to readers,
but I guess I did write alittle bit of a mystery there.

Speaker 1 (01:04:59):
So I will own what I've created and finish it I do
love when, like in in worldbuilding, I do love, especially
with the zombie apocalypse.
I love when, uh, when you painta picture that you can see the
story and then it's just likeyou figure it out.
You figure out what happenedhere and it's like you did it
perfectly with the casino boatand it's something that also,

(01:05:24):
like the Walking Dead, does allthe time, where, like they go in
, they go into a, into abuilding, and you just see like
the carnage that played out inthere and you're just like what
happened here and uh, and I just, I just love that the zombie
apocalypse genre is magical forso many reasons, but one of
those reasons is exactly whatyou just described also oh, you

(01:05:47):
go ahead oh, I just was.

Speaker 2 (01:05:48):
Like you know, I think we talk a lot about why we
love the zombie apocalypsegenre, but I don't think I've
asked you.
It seems like a simple question, but what is it about it that
you're like?
I'm so compelled by this?
I have to write the stories ohgosh.

Speaker 3 (01:05:59):
Well, for for one, I, I really think and you said it
in your intro and it's it's in,you know, my bio, wherever my
exists.
My first experience with thezombie apocalypse was watching
Night of the Living Dead at likeseven, eight years old, and
just being terrified for weeks,not being able to sleep, being

(01:06:20):
so scared that this could happen.
And maybe I just found outabout it too young, but it has
stuck with me forever.
Found out about it too young,but it has stuck with me forever
.
And I am always imaginingscenarios where, well, what
would I do if this and how wouldI escape if that?
And do I have enough of this toprepare for every kind of

(01:06:41):
scenario?
And I'm always thinking aboutit and being able to write about
it and create that world.
I love it.
I don't know how many zombieapocalypse books I have read.
I don't know how many zombieapocalypse movies I have watched
, tv shows I cannot get enoughof it, so much so that I had to

(01:07:05):
write about it.
I don't know if I can reallyput my finger on why I love it,
just that I think about it allthe time.
It's your hyper-focus, yes.

Speaker 1 (01:07:18):
And many, many people's I mean, that's people
who listen to this podcast andother creators for sure I found
really entertaining was when,joe you, as the author of said
book, take Quinn in hand andgive her a tour of your college

(01:07:40):
apartment.

Speaker 3 (01:07:42):
Do you think that's my college apartment?

Speaker 1 (01:07:44):
I do.
I do think that was yourcollege as, as she's going
through like the books and andgo and like exploring the
kitchen and all of the littlelittle appliances on the
countertop, I'm like this isJoe's apartment.

Speaker 2 (01:07:57):
I did, totally did not come to this conclusion.

Speaker 3 (01:07:59):
And now I want to know oh my gosh, that is such an
interesting guest.
So I'm trying to admit I havelots of apartments in college I
it's not that far off, dan.
I, I do tend to to keep thingspretty neat and tidy.
I was very serious about mystudies and so all of my

(01:08:22):
textbooks absolutely would havebeen out.
Um, in in the in the areas I, Iwould have had a stack of
novels that I would not havewanted someone to touch with
their sticky carrier fingers.

Speaker 1 (01:08:35):
Um, I would have had a stash of things like maybe
you're right, I thought it wasintentional where you're just
like I'm gonna slip this in hereand see if anybody notices.
I was so confident that thatwas absolutely 100 in your
apartment and I'm like, I'm likethey're going up to the roof to
the little fire pit and I'mlike like I gotta ask about this

(01:08:58):
fire pit I did not have a firepit in college.

Speaker 3 (01:09:02):
Oh gosh, I wish I would have.
That would have been a prettycool.
No, no, I went to college inDecatur, illinois, and we didn't
have fun things like fire pitson our roofs in Decatur.

Speaker 1 (01:09:13):
And you know, that scene did make me make me think
about something, because Quinnis just walking around in this
apartment and she's like youknow, if I made it out of the
facility, this is the apartment,this is what my apartment would
be like, and she's like kind oflike living that experience and
like who do you think quinncould have been if she got out
of the facility?
Because, like, the rules wouldbe intact, she wouldn't be like

(01:09:35):
free to just stab anybody in theneck.

Speaker 3 (01:09:36):
She'd have to like find a different way to exist
yeah, she has spent her entirelife preparing for the
integration into society andtrying to hide her true nature
so that she wouldn't end up inan adult facility.
So she very much had high hopesof where she.

(01:09:59):
She wanted to move on toindependent living, right.
She wanted that apartment, shewanted the opportunity to be out
there.
But she also knew that shewould be competing with typical
teenagers, typical young adultswho were nothing like her.
And I think seeing what couldhave been for her is an

(01:10:21):
important moment.
Where she's who do I want to be, and then the things that play
out in that apartment.
She gets a little bit of apreview into that and I I don't
know if we want to talk aboutthat or not.

Speaker 2 (01:10:34):
It's it's a little bit of a spoiler.
I will just say that there's avery heartwarming moment.
Yeah, it's nice, it's cozy.

Speaker 1 (01:10:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:10:42):
I, that's.
I also that of genre.
They're like the little cozymoments and the way that Quinn
surprised me with how sheorganized some things for her
fellow survivors.

Speaker 3 (01:10:53):
She learned a lot in the Pegasus Center about how to
keep people calm and chillpeople out, and it turns out it
had direct application to thepost-apocalyptic world.
Yeah, people can read and findout for their selves.

Speaker 2 (01:11:07):
Yeah, it was a beautiful scene.
Go get this book If you haven't.
If you haven't pre-ordered ityet, what have you been waiting
for?

Speaker 1 (01:11:11):
Yeah, buy this book If you want to know what Joe's
apartment looks like.

Speaker 2 (01:11:18):
I know we're coming close to time.
I did want to ask you animportant question We've touched
on it a little bit which isthat people assume that you are
Quinn, and I even justaccidentally called you Quinn
because of my diagnosed dyspnea,but it did happen.
What is that like for you whenyou're trying to promote a book
about somebody who is Quinn?

Speaker 3 (01:11:37):
I have to really control myself because I feel
like sometimes I get a littlebit.
I don't know if defensive isthe right word, but like I feel
like I have to tell people thisis not a self-insert.
I know it's like I feel like Ihave to tell people this is not
a self insert.
I know it's like people oftensay like, oh, your first novel
is a self insert.
It's not.
I promise you, it's not.
This is I am not Quinn, quinnis not me, but I think, as you

(01:11:59):
have said, isn't Quinn, a littlebit everybody.
So I don't know, it does feel alittle uncomfortable sometimes,
especially having my familyread this book.
My dad read this book and hesaid to me I keep thinking that
she's you and it's like dad,don't do that, don't think that.

(01:12:23):
So it's a little bituncomfortable.
So it's a little bituncomfortable, but I think
people can separate us enough tonot make it weird.

Speaker 2 (01:12:34):
Yeah, if they're not, so they're not afraid of me.
If they're not, I mean you dohave a machete in your house and
a wagon, so there are somesuspicious tells.
No-transcript verification.

(01:13:11):
Joe and quinn are two differentpeople.
I have spent time with joe.
I can attest that you are veryclean.
They have different wagons andvery kind different wagons.
Not every wagon is a murderwagon, although quinn's wasn't a
murder wagon either.

Speaker 1 (01:13:24):
Actually, her wagon had good intentions it was
functional.

Speaker 3 (01:13:28):
Yeah, yeah yeah, I mean I.

Speaker 1 (01:13:30):
We were roommates for four days and I didn't kill
either one of you I know youbrought us cake, the best cake
I've ever eaten ever in fact, itcould be argued that the only
reason, uh, that we, that wesurvived, was because we had
roommates that fed us yeahseveral times and we had
roommates that fed us severaltimes.

Speaker 2 (01:13:50):
And we had dog therapy through.
Wow, this is how you know.
I have a noun retrieval problemthrough data.
Dog therapy through data, notUli.
Uli, I know you're human.
I'm really sorry.
It's a real disability.
Nobody knows about it.

Speaker 1 (01:14:07):
Uli also provided dog therapy as well, when Uli uh
showed us some of data's better,better tricks that's true.

Speaker 2 (01:14:16):
That's a good way to put it with a ball yeah, what
does uli think of your writingand your stories?

Speaker 3 (01:14:23):
gosh.
I cannot believe how lucky I amto have him in my life.
He's not really a reader hereads a lot for work and he's
not really like a novel person,but he read book one and he was

(01:14:44):
so encouraging, so encouraging,and he has been by far the most
supportive person in my life.
He encouraged me to leave myjob and really focus on what I'm
doing here.
I cannot imagine being able todo this without him encouraging

(01:15:04):
me and being by my side.
I cannot believe how lucky I amto have a partner who wants to
see me succeed in this.
I'm stumbling for words.
I don't even have words toexpress my gratitude for his
support.
He's been amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:15:21):
He's a wonderful guy and it was a relief to meet him
in person and know that hedeserves you, Jo.

Speaker 3 (01:15:26):
Oh, my God.

Speaker 2 (01:15:28):
You know, it's real, people's really kind.
I'm like, okay, you are worthyand you are both worthy of each
other and that's a reallybeautiful thing.
And you have the best childever, data.
Oh, thank you, thank you.
Sadly, this conversation needsto come to an end for the
listeners.
I know we'll always be chattingbecause we're very lucky in
that way to be your friend, butwhere can people find you and

(01:15:51):
your books?

Speaker 3 (01:15:52):
Yeah, so I typically hang out on Instagram and so if
you want to connect with me,please do.
I love getting messages fromreaders and I do check, even if
we're not following each otherand the messages get hidden and
stuff like that.
I check those.
If you send me a message, Iwant to chat with you.

(01:16:13):
It's one of my favorite things,so do come find me on Instagram
.
I'm also pretty active onTikTok.
I post a lot of things onTikTok that I wouldn't
necessarily post on Instagram.
So if you really want to see mehaving fun, go find me on
TikTok.
So if you really want to see mehaving fun, go find me on
TikTok.
But the places you can find mybook, those are expanding every

(01:16:33):
day, which is exciting.
Mostly people find me on Amazon.
You can read my book for freeon Kindle Unlimited.
There's audiobook and paperbackas well.
I'm also available atbarnesandnoblecom, and then
there are a few indie bookstoresthat have started carrying my
books.
So D&K Books Underbrush, ourTown Books in Jacksonville,

(01:16:57):
illinois, and then Bucket ofBlood, most recently in Chicago.
So we're getting out there.

Speaker 2 (01:17:03):
Last question you have merch Merch that I have
already purchased because I waslike I have to have this, tell
us about it and where people canfind that.
Yes, I have merch merch that Ihave already purchased because I
was like I have to have this,um, tell us about it and where
people can find that yes, um, I,I did.

Speaker 3 (01:17:13):
I made new city rovers shirts.
So after you you read the bookand you know what the rovers are
all about, you can decidewhether you want to purchase one
of those shirts.
But they have a fun um logo onthem.
They kind of look like it mightbe a sports team that you're
repping, but, um, yeah, it's, uh, it's.
There's a link in my bio oninstagram and tiktok, so if you,

(01:17:36):
if you go on one of those sites, find me, click the link in my
bio and there is a t-shirt shopwhere you can find those.

Speaker 2 (01:17:42):
So I've got t-shirts and um patches like that you can
sew on or iron on your clothesyeah, I bought a patch and then
Dan thought I bought it for himand I was like shit, I should
have bought two patches.
And I think that, like me, ifyou have read the first
Deadweight, or even if youhaven't, it's great merch, but
especially if you've read it.
I think if you are Team Quinn,if you love Quinn or you love to

(01:18:04):
hate Quinn, you should just goahead and get something and then
be surprised by what you justsigned up for.
That's kind of part of the fun,or at least was for me thank
you but it is time, sadly, toend it.
Thank you so much, everybody,for joining the zombie book club
.
Thank you most especially tojoe salazar for being a zomb
bestie.
You can support the pod byleaving a rating or a review.

(01:18:24):
Send us a three minutevoicemail at 614-699-0006 it's
one of the few numbers I havememorized anymore.
You can sign up for ournewsletter that dan worked so
hard on, or you can come andhang out with us on instagram at
zombie book club podcast.
Want to go deeper into theapocalypse?
Join the brain muncherscollective on discord.
Links are in the show notes.

Speaker 3 (01:18:44):
Might sound crazy, but the end is nigh, baby, bye,
bye, bye, don't die.
Bye everybody, bye.

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'The Dead Weight: Resistance' with special guest Jo Salazar | Zombie Book Club Ep 111

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}'The Dead Weight: Resistance' with special guest Jo Salazar | Zombie Book Club Ep 111