The End with Special Guest Gerard Clarke | Zombie Book Club Ep 86 - Zombie Book Club

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:20):
Welcome to Zombie Book Club, the only book club
where the book is an odyssey,but with zombies and no giant
cyclopses, as far as I can tell.
I'm Dan and when I'm notembarking on my own odyssey, my
Honda Odyssey cue laugh track.
I'm writing a book about theend of civilization that I only
hope is half as epic as the end.

Speaker 2 (00:40):
And I'm Leah, and today we're talking with a
zombesty and fellow indie author, gerard Clark, about their
debut fast-paced zombieapocalypse novel, the End.
Originally from Ireland, gerardhas lived in the US and Canada,
giving his book a globalperspective.
Currently based in Hampshire,uk, gerard published the End in
June 2024 after many years ofjuggling a family and career and

(01:00):
is now working on a teleplayadaptation.
Welcome to the show, gerard.
We're so glad to finally betalking to you, yeah thanks for
having me and really good to behere.
Feels like it was, uh gone for along time yeah, we've been
chatting on our Discord feelslike we're all like a big Zom
family.
That's the thing.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
Your book has been sitting on our coffee table for
I feel like months at this pointyeah, we have it right here
with us.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
You can see it.

Speaker 3 (01:25):
It's being blocked by my background, but it's here
yeah, I think it's probablyprobably too scary to be on
there.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
That's why it's getting blurred off it is true,
you have a very disturbingzombie on the cover and then a
bunch of other disturbing ones,but the first one that's closest
is quite Corey so we have some,we have some very important
questions, the most important.

Speaker 1 (01:45):
You could say some, and very rapid.
We call, we call them rapidfire questions.
That's what it says right inour right, in our notes.
Um, so are you ready?
Are you ready for these veryimportant questions that will
definitely judge you on I, I amready, but yeah, um your choice.
Do you choose fast or slowzombies?

Speaker 3 (02:08):
I think slow, um, I, I think, um, yeah, like, if
you're going cinematically, likethe fast is kind of it is good
for that kind of jump squarething.
But I think, um, yeah, slowzombies getting overwhelmed and
not knowing what to do,panicking, and yeah, I think
it's much more realistic and itmight be, um, and it's something

(02:31):
that I, yeah, I like to write,kind of people getting
overwhelmed and absorbed by avery nice horde of zombies like
the cover of your book yeah whenit's yeah precisely what is a
horde of fast zombies?

Speaker 1 (02:44):
that's just a wave of death.
Like that's quick, it's too.

Speaker 3 (02:47):
it's like it's not the overhaul.
What are you going to?

Speaker 1 (02:50):
do you know?
It's just like you're dead.
You're dead now.

Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah, you don't get like the slow death scenes of
people being torn apart, yeah,which are really important.

Speaker 3 (02:59):
Dragged into a live shot.

Speaker 1 (03:02):
Exactly, yeah, yeah, exactly yeah, yeah, um, exactly
yeah, you get to choose 40 hourwork week um or the zombie
apocalypse currently the lastfew weeks that I've had.

Speaker 3 (03:13):
I'd take this on the apocalypse.
I'm so sorry.
Yeah, no, I just I started anew job in the new year.
I'm a contractor, so I kind ofchange jobs every year and, yeah
, the latest one is, yeah, it'sbeen thrown in the deep end and

(03:37):
it's pretty chaotic.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
So yeah, right now I'm thinking zombie apocalypse
looks pretty good right now Arethe metaphorical zombies, fast
zombies in this new contract.

Speaker 3 (03:48):
Yes, everything is flung at you fast and yeah, it's
taken quite a bit to pivot from9 to 5.30.
My day is back to back and it'syeah, I'm sorry to hear that,
yeah, no, no, it's all good LikeI do enjoy what I do, but yeah,

(04:11):
right now it's pretty intense.

Speaker 2 (04:12):
So full-time zombies 24-7, versus 9 to 5.30 back to
back.
I'm with you, yeah.

Speaker 3 (04:19):
Yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, I think I'd probably be
good at dodging the zombies.
But yeah, I think I'd probablybe good at dodging the zombies.

Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah, I can't dodge my work right now.
That's a good point.
Yeah, every new job I've everstarted felt like apocalyptic
like at least for a month.
It's just like this is way toomuch.
Usually my first month on thejob I'm like I don't care if I
get fired.

Speaker 3 (04:45):
That's a great attitude to have.
I kind of do like yeah.
I do that like yeah, for thefirst, yeah, a couple of months.
I'm like you know, because,yeah, it takes getting used to
and you're kind of getting up tospeed with things, especially
like if there's a project like,and you're right in the middle
of it and, uh, yeah, it's like Iconstantly think, yeah, like
any day, now they they're justgoing to tell me your shit, you

(05:06):
need to go, yeah, yeah.
Then I last year and I was like, yeah, what was I worried about
?

Speaker 1 (05:12):
Yeah.
And then you ask them later andthey're like no, you were great
.
It's like really, so it's thezombie apocalypse.
You got your slow zombies and,minus the 40-hour work week,
you're living life.
Really, what is your weapon ofchoice?

Speaker 3 (05:33):
Yeah, weapon of choice, I would probably go with
a fire axe.
Yeah, because I think it'seasily accessible.
I think if you're running away,there's probably going to be
somewhere in a building that youcan confiscate, and um, yeah, I
think it'll.

Speaker 1 (05:53):
It'll do you good yeah, multi-purpose too, like
you know you need to get inthrough a door, a window.

Speaker 2 (05:58):
I mean, that's kind of what they designed it for
have you personally noted whereall of the uh fire axes are in
your town?
I?

Speaker 3 (06:06):
do kind of like yeah, like when I go into a building,
I do kind of take note thatthere is one, like I think it
might be something in the backof my head that I am doing it.

Speaker 1 (06:16):
Um, not constantly thinking like, yeah, there may
be an apocalypse about to breakout, but I do notice if there's
an axe there, yeah, yeah, you'rewhat you're walking through
like a stairwell and you seelike the, the fire axe and the
fire extinguisher and you'relike dips, that one's mine, guys
note the way back um, so yougot your fire X, you're, you're,

(06:43):
you're swinging through zombies, um, and you find, you find a
really big hall of of uh, ofshelf, stable food.
Some would even say it's anunlimited supply of it.
Um, what, what would you chooseto be your unlimited uh food
supply?

Speaker 3 (07:02):
I'm thinking it'd be Kraft mac and cheese, yeah okay,
I think that'll last.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And yeah, it's dry, it's notgoing to.
I don't think it's going towaste out for quite a while and
yeah, it's tasty.

Speaker 1 (07:21):
It's like childhood for me, but you've got to have
ketchup.

Speaker 2 (07:23):
I need to find the unlimited shelf-stable supply of
ketchup somewhere.

Speaker 3 (07:24):
I disagree it's tasty .

Speaker 2 (07:25):
It's like childhood for me.
But you've got to have ketchup.
I need to find the unlimitedshelf-stable supply of ketchup
somewhere.

Speaker 1 (07:29):
I disagree with that, and you know I've spent a long
time being absolutely dirt poorand I know that Kraft macaroni
and cheese still taste good ifyou make it with water.

Speaker 2 (07:42):
Oh it does.
I have an important questionbefore we go to your official
last rapid fire question.
So you've lived in canada,you've lived in the us, you've
lived in ireland.
You live where you live now.
Um, is it's called craft dinner?
Is mac and cheese called in theuk as well?

Speaker 3 (07:59):
uh, so you can't actually get it here.
Oh no, yeah, yeah.
So I'm like you actually get ithere?
Oh no, yeah, so you can get itin, like North American stores.
There's a few of them goingaround, but yeah, it's not
generally available.
So, yeah, it's something frommy childhood that's good to know

(08:20):
.
It would bring back a lot ofmemories, yeah, so yeah, it was
like um seven to thirteen Ilived in toronto.
Um so, yeah, yeah, craft dinnerwould have been quite a staple
at the time.

Speaker 2 (08:32):
Yeah, it was quite upsetting for me to move to the
united states and learn thatit's not called craft dinner
it's misleading.

Speaker 1 (08:38):
It's not a whole dinner, it's a.
It is a course of a meal Idisagree.

Speaker 2 (08:43):
I would eat that just as a meal for myself as a kid.

Speaker 1 (08:46):
And also, kraft makes so many things.
I know, I worked in a Kraftfactory.

Speaker 2 (08:50):
Well, that's how they call it.

Speaker 1 (08:52):
in Canada they make Philadelphia cream cheese.
Is that Kraft breakfast?

Speaker 2 (08:58):
Well, I think this last question for you so we
always like to do like a customrapid fire question, depending
on the person and I think thislast one actually has me really
wondering about your choicearound unlimited shelf stable
food if it's consistent, becauseI wanted to know if you had to
pick one country Ireland, canadaor the US to be in the zombie
apocalypse when it starts, wherewould you go?

(09:18):
Where would you choose to be?

Speaker 3 (09:22):
Well, the novel was California, just because I love
California.
But, yeah, like, yeah, the lastplace that I lived was
Vancouver, bc, gorgeous place,love it.
And yeah, I think there's a lotof places that you can escape
to in Vancouver Go up themountains into the woods.

Speaker 2 (09:44):
So, yeah, I think it'll be vancouver for me okay,
so you're consistent, you couldget your craft dinner in the
location oh, yeah, yeah, that'dbe a fun word yeah, I used to
know somebody who used to climbone of the mountains in
vancouver like every single dayand they did like a.

Speaker 1 (10:01):
They did like a vlog of like climbing that mountain
and I'm like my first did like avlog of like climbing that
mountain and I'm like my firstthought is zombies aren't
getting up that mountain.
It's not a hard one to climb,but like they're, they're just
not going to get up thatmountain.
Yeah, there's, there's nothingthat's going to drive them to
climb all that way, especiallywhen they would probably tumble
down so many times that'd be funto watch.

Speaker 2 (10:21):
There's not enough zombies falling down mountains.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
Yeah that could be a whole movie yeah, zombie
avalanche has that happened?
Oh my god, that's an amazingidea that is actually a very
good idea.

Speaker 3 (10:34):
You need to copyright that right now it's copyright,
copyright.

Speaker 1 (10:38):
That's how it works.
You call copyright and then youown it to write, and then you
own it.

Speaker 3 (10:51):
Um, let's talk about the end um the book that you
wrote, specifically the endingof the end yeah, although it
does say the end at the end,which was very satisfying.

Speaker 2 (10:58):
Yeah, can you tell us a little bit about it for those
who haven't had a chance toread it yet?

Speaker 3 (11:03):
Yeah, sure, yeah, so it's.
Basically it starts off withthe kind of yeah, origins of how
the zombie virus kind of getsmade and that feeds into
straight into the ground zero ofthe apocalypse happening in

(11:24):
Frontier.
So you've got William Hawkins.
He's the main protagonist, he'sa Navy SEAL, gets called into
action in San Diego and, yeah,just realizes that everything
has gone to hell, there's no wayof fighting this.
Gets back to base.
Base is overwhelmed.
So his first thought go savehis family.

(11:45):
He needs to get back to them.
And so then it kind of takes offfrom there and it's searching
for a sense of community, tryingto survive amongst a whole host

(12:06):
of threats from the dead andmainly from the living as well.
It kind of looks at how peoplechange when they're faced with
these odds and then kind oftheir moral compass goes out the
window or they're really stayswith them and they get that
sense of community and survivaland bonding together, that kind
of dichotomy looking at it.
And yeah, it's really fastpaced, it's filled with action.

(12:29):
And I know the title is kind ofinteresting because, yeah, it
was originally envisioned as akind of three part novella piece
when it started off.
I mean, the end was always thestart of it, um, effectively,
because it was supposed to bethe end of the world, um, and uh

(12:51):
yeah.
Then, just throughout the years, I just decided to to combine
it into the one and actuallybuild out an actual novel on it,
and that's how it landed.
Just kept the title.
That's a good one yeah, I umthe.

Speaker 1 (13:07):
The pacing was like the first thing that I noticed,
because it it really moves alonglike I, I don't, I don't, I
don't think you're more than afew chapters in before it's like
almost a year out in thetimeline yeah, yeah, it's.

Speaker 3 (13:21):
Yeah, I I tried to keep that pacing and just kind
of make it feel cinematic in away, because, yeah, my funny
kind of clawback is I'd alwaysloved movies and stuff like that

(13:43):
and I like, when I moved toVancouver I was probably like 38
, 37, 38.
And, yeah, background is in ITand that's yeah, my career is
based on.
But I got into Vancouver andthey have the Vancouver Film
School which, like, yeah, lotsof people have gone to.

Speaker 1 (14:08):
I think Kevin Smith went to the Vancouver Film
School.

Speaker 3 (14:11):
Yeah, Kevin Smith dropped out of there.

Speaker 1 (14:12):
To make his move, yeah exactly.

Speaker 3 (14:17):
And then Neil Blomkamp, district 9.
So he went there with his wifeand made District 9 like quite
shortly after graduating there,and so I just kind of applied
just on a whim and got acceptedthere.
And then I was just about tostart on the pandemic and yeah,

(14:39):
so I was like I just, yeah, Idropped out, like I just didn't
go ahead with it because Iwouldn't get that hands-on
experience that you'd getactually physically being in and
learning how to direct a movieand stuff like that.
But that was always my ambitionwas to write and direct movies.

(15:01):
So that was my writing styleand in fact, like, uh, it's kind
of cinematic view of things andI want to keep things like
visual and fast-paced and keepit training yeah, that's
something I was actuallythinking about.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
what I was when I was reading it is that, um, there's
so much there that, like, ifyou, if you wanted to turn it
into a series or a movie, like,it's all right there, we don't
have to wait for six more booksto be published.

Speaker 3 (15:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:34):
It gets to the point, there's a lot of room to expand
.

Speaker 2 (15:37):
If you're writing a script and you want to make each
chapter an episode of theWalking Dead, I feel like you've
got dozens of seasons worth ofmaterial there that you could
really tell an epic storyvisually if if that was what you
were going for yeah, it's notthe kind of book that you're
gonna fall asleep reading likeyou need to know what's gonna
happen next, um, but you havevery poetic language, like at

(16:00):
one point I was like it's kindof like tolkien, but not because
you skipped all of theunnecessary boring detail, but
it has the like um, what's theword I'm looking for?

Speaker 3 (16:10):
it has like the atmosphere of this big, epic
story and really yeah, I wastrying to kind of, yeah, build
that, yeah, that kind oflandscape, like, yeah, the kind
of world building thing.
So like, yeah, I did kind offocus on that and I did have a
long time to focus on it as well.
But, yeah, no, thanks for thecompliments though.

(16:32):
Yeah, it's kind of the visionthat I do have for it, like I am
trying to write like a teleplayfor it.
So I've got the pilot kind ofalmost where I want it.
So I'm going to try and startpitching that in the near future
, and so I've got the pilot kindof almost where I want it, so
I'm going to try and startpitching that in the near future
, hopefully, yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:51):
That's really exciting.
Yeah, I kind of felt like I wasreading the Odyssey a bit.
Like I said, it did feel likean epic poem, like it's spanning
over this like vast amount oftime, like it's it's spanning
over this like vast amount oftime and just it's.
It's, it's a it's a story about.

(17:11):
It's a story about time, really, and yeah the things that
happen, like all the, all, thecharacters that come and go and
the relationships that areformed yeah, so, yeah, that's
yeah.

Speaker 3 (17:20):
So like, yeah, you kind of see where it would have
originally been, like Like youhave multiple kind of novellas,
because, yeah, there's probablylike four kind of distinct
stories within it, so that yougo back and forth, like so
there's the journey of WillHawkins, but then there's kind

(17:42):
of, yeah, there's a couple ofside pieces, so I won't go into
too many details until peopleget a chance to read it.
I hate when there's too manyspoilers in these things.
But yeah, there's kind of threeother sets of group stories
that you kind of uncover andthen how they all kind of come
together.

Speaker 2 (18:02):
And it's like when these kind of things together,
um, and it's real, because, yeah, like when these kind of things
happen, the world gets verysmall yeah, and one of the
things that really struck me waswhat you said earlier about, um
, the raiders, you, you writefrom the perspective of the
raiders as well as people likehawk who are trying to build
community again and worktogether.
And you mentioned about thisquestion of like who?

(18:24):
Who do you become in theapocalypse?
Do you become the person who israiding or do you become the
person who is trying to buildsomething?
And I'm curious what it waslike to write from both of those
perspectives and if you haveany like hypotheses now, after
doing that about like, what arethe forming factors that make
somebody go in either direction?

Speaker 3 (18:42):
Yeah, that's the thing.
Yeah, I tried to kind of putmyself in that mindset and it's
like I think, like it kind ofwould depend on, like, how you
grew up and like, yeah, the kindof influences in your life and
so.
But also I kind of envisionedthat you know, like early on in

(19:03):
the apocalypse, when all thechaos is happening, there's
these flash moments where you'renot thinking so you might
accidentally kill someone, thatmight flip a switch in you, but
I didn't feel anything duringthat moment.
So maybe this is okay, life tolive Not that it is, but, like

(19:28):
you know, I was kind of tryingto get in that character mindset
and what they would be thinking.
But then also I was like, youknow, when you're writing these
things as well, it's like youknow, the good guys are only the
good guys from the perspectiveof the, the writer, like the way
you write it.
So, um, you know, uh, they'rejust bad because you write them

(19:52):
bad.
And so, um, like yeah, I thinklike yeah, when we were on the
the uh, the chat the other day,um, you know, there was some
talk about negan and his groupin the Walking Dead.
He's only bad because he'sperceived to be the bad guy when
you write it.
But if you look back at thestory, rick's crew struck first,

(20:14):
so that kind of spurs him on tobe evil.
But they did evil things beforeand they were keeping people
under their thumb and stuff likethat, but yeah, yeah it's all
about perspective sometimes.

Speaker 1 (20:27):
Yeah, exactly, yeah, rick did some pretty rick, uh,
ran over, ran over a cop with awith his own police car because
he told him to stop and hewouldn't.
Yeah, like moments like that.
You could be like, yeah, rickis absolutely a psychopath yeah,
yeah, yeah, he's left people todie.

(20:47):
He's, you know absolutelyruthless against his enemies?
Um, yeah, but we see him as thegood guy because he's you know,
he's doing everything for anoble cause.
But yeah raiders, you knowthey're trying to protect their
own people, they're trying tofeed themselves, they're trying
to stay safe.
Maybe their cause is just asnoble and they, you know, have
to resort to um less less thankind means of dealing with

(21:12):
people that they don't trust orlike yeah, for sure.

Speaker 3 (21:15):
Now there are some shitty um, there's some very
shitty people in the end of all.
So, yeah, we'll put a caveat onthat because, yeah, yeah, I
don't want to be sympathizingwith them too much.
Yeah, there's definitely somebad guys in it.

Speaker 2 (21:31):
It is a point to remember, though.
Like in life, stories like thisand what you're saying are
important to think about because, at the end of the day, like
everybody in the end wants tosurvive, we have different
survival strategies, um, somemore moral and compassionate
than others, but I do, like youknow my enduring desire for a

(21:51):
better world wants to hope thatthere's a world where, like, if
we can meet each other at thatbasic place of like, we all want
to have food, shelter and love.
I mean, some people don't careabout love, that's true.
There's the truly bad people,yeah, but for most of us, like
is can we just get along?
That's always what I come backto.
Like, can we just remember thatwe all want the same things and
just get along?
That's how I feel whenever Iread books, too.

(22:13):
Just like, can we, could you?
Why?

Speaker 3 (22:18):
why do you have to be this way?
You've got, you've got to havehope.
Um, like that's the thing youcan't.
Um, I mean I do like darkendings um at, but yeah, I'm a
Scorpio so like yeah, naturallykind of do, but yeah, like you
got to end with hope a lot ofthe time.
Like you know, the basic humanneed.

Speaker 2 (22:38):
You do end on a note of hope.
Is that okay for me to say?

Speaker 3 (22:41):
That's okay to say.
Yeah, no spoilers.

Speaker 2 (22:45):
Yeah, and yet it is a very bleak like it's a very
bleak story through most of it.

Speaker 3 (22:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What made you make?

Speaker 2 (22:52):
the choice to end it at a point of hope.

Speaker 3 (23:05):
I thought that the way I was writing it that it was
veering towards a kind of bleakending, so I thought that
ending it on a note of hopewould kind of surprise the
reader a bit, which hopefullydoes.
But yeah, I think it was just anatural kind of progression,
just because the way the storywas going I was like, yeah, this
is kind of going down a darkpath.

(23:26):
But yeah, I kind of wanted downa dark path, um, but like, yeah
, I kind of wanted to, yeah,just put something nice in at
the end and that it would, yeah,be different I appreciated that
as the person who would like tostill be a little.

Speaker 1 (23:38):
Yeah, I mean even some of the darkest stories that
exist in the genre usually.
Usually there's that, thatspark of hope, and that's kind
of the point.
Even the road, the road endswith hope.

Speaker 3 (23:51):
Yeah, I did actually take some inspiration from the
road as well, the journey aspectof things, what you would do
for your child or childrenBecoming a father myself.
You just have that instinct andstuff.

(24:14):
It was an inspiration for me.

Speaker 2 (24:18):
It's a powerful story as well.
Your book inspired aconversation we had.
We always talk about who we'regoing to talk to and what we've
read over breakfast.
If it's going to be on aSaturday, go to our favorite
diner.
Oh man, that just went away.
That's so annoying.

Speaker 3 (24:33):
Brain hold on I got thinking about the food at the
diner and obama.

Speaker 2 (24:40):
He didn't make an appearance as well,
unfortunately no, um, and whatit made us start to talk about
and think about is just likethat a lot of the stories you
grew up with as kids are.
There's a happy ending, rightLike.
There are things happen thatare hard, but then there's a
happy ending and your book is areally powerful reminder of like
.
It's actually just an ongoingstory and there is no end to
struggle, but there are momentsof hope along the way and that's

(25:02):
sort of what we have to livefor.
It's not as simple as like.

Speaker 3 (25:05):
It's just always going to be a happy ending
because even if everything goesperfectly next, not giving
anything away, there are stillgoing to be other struggles
after that yeah, exactly so,like yeah, and I, I think like
yeah, when stories just end aswell like um, you know, like
where it's, yeah, it's veryfinal, I kind of don't like that

(25:26):
.
Like yeah, I like a story thatwill like kind of invoke your
imagination as well.
I wonder what happened next inthis.
There might not necessarily bea sequel to anything that you're
reading, but it stimulates yourimagination and you can figure
out your own story that way.
It's kind of nice.

Speaker 2 (25:47):
It's also more human.
I think I was actually likenegatively affected by all the
fairy tales I read.
That made me think that therewas like this point where I'd
get married and then everythingwould be easy after that.
That was the narrative as a kidand that's not real life.

Speaker 3 (26:00):
So yeah, well, yeah, if you read the original uh,
fairy tales they're much worseyeah, they're not the ones I was
given as a kid.
For sure, tell us more about thetype of zombies in your book
yes, um, they are kind of, yes,they're, they're a bit more
dangerous when they initiallyturn um and but yeah, they're,

(26:22):
they're all the slow moving,slow-moving variety.
They tend to move in hordes tooverwhelm our heroes.
They're pretty brutal.
They go straight for the flesh.
They're pretty mindless.

(26:43):
There's no rhyme or reason tothem.
They just want to kill, kill,kill, which I think is the best
kind of zombie that you want toread about.
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, but yeah, it's obviouslykind of virus spreads pretty
rapidly.
So, yeah, there's a lot of thezombies.
So, yeah, oftentimes, yeah,when they come up against them,

(27:07):
they'll be overwhelmed by theodds.
Um, but yeah, obviously, ourmain protagonist, um, kind of
escapes plenty of jams.

Speaker 2 (27:15):
so that's why he gets to be throughout the story
exactly, yeah, yeah, I guess hewouldn't be too far if he didn't
no, he's, uh.

Speaker 1 (27:24):
Yeah, there's some gaps in there, though, where
where we don't focus on him,which is um, which is good, so
yeah I do appreciate thatbecause, like your, your story
does a really great job of likefinding these, these characters
throughout the, throughout thethe journey through the
wasteland, who become like, moreor less found family, um in the

(27:46):
group, and then they become,then they start to hold a bigger
, a bigger role, um, as as timeprogresses, like, um, like
there's a, a character, maya,who shows up pretty early in the
story and um, you know, I Ifigured that she'd die right
away because I didn't.
I didn't know what kind ofstory this is going to be.

Speaker 2 (28:07):
Are we spoiling by saying whether or not maya lives
or dies?
Well, I was talking with you.
I don't think so.

Speaker 1 (28:12):
Okay, she's actually my favorite character um that I
wrote so, yeah, yeah, not givingthat, not giving anything away
yeah, I mean maya seems likereally well fleshed out and like
um, also like really breaks alot of the typical gender
stereotypes.
Like she's a mechanic, she'sout there scouting.

(28:32):
Seems pretty tough.
Was there an inspiration forMaya or did she just show up in
your brain one day?

Speaker 3 (28:40):
Kind of just yeah, just showed up in the brain
really.
Yeah, kind of originally I wasgoing to kill her off um quite
early enough Um, but I, yeah, no, I I really liked her Um and um
.
Yeah, just like her characterkind of grew organically, like
in the kind of situation that Iwas.

(29:01):
I was putting her in Um causeshe brings a lot of emotion into
the emotion into a number ofsituations, because she really
feels the impact of the lossthat they experience and she's
an emotional anchor in a few ofthose and she just really grew

(29:26):
organically and developed intothis really really strong
character.
She was a bit lost at the start, trying to find her place, but
yeah, she's become really strong, quite badass yeah, and I
really love her.

Speaker 2 (29:42):
We appreciate that.
I especially appreciate that.
I've probably shared this onthe podcast before, but it's
worth saying again that mygrandfather owned a mechanic
shop and all of my uncles werealso mechanics, and I was never
allowed to go in there and learnthings.
They treated me like a princessand did everything for me.
So I love characters that arelike Maya, that actually know
how to do stuff.
I could have been that person,maybe, and it's just sort of

(30:06):
like a moment of fantasy.
It's like, well, look, it'spossible.
It's just nice to see that.
It's nice to see women in rolesthat aren't traditional, like
inside and outside ofapocalyptic scenario.
It's just a reminder that thoselimitations aren't real.

Speaker 3 (30:18):
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, because I tried to be asdiverse as I could be, like
consciously kind of diverse, butyou know, I hope we succeeded
in that.
But yeah, Maya was definitelykind of one of the ones that I
loved writing about.

Speaker 2 (30:35):
What's it like to choose if a character lives or
dies?

Speaker 3 (30:39):
It's tough sometimes, and other times it's just like
it happens really organically,because you're just kind of
playing out the situation, likeyou get to a point where someone
has to go Like it's notrealistic that they're going to
make it out of this situationall intact.

(31:00):
And yeah, it's tough at timesthough.
Yeah, so it's tough at times,though there's definitely there
was one character in the bookthat was definitely tough to
that I wrote him out, but it wasnecessary, and that's kind of

(31:21):
how I justified it Like it hadto progress the story and kind
of, yeah, anchor that bit in.

Speaker 2 (31:27):
Do you emotionally mourn like?
Do writers emotionally mourncharacters they kill?
I've never asked this, but I'mso curious.
Like you come in and you'd belike, go to your wife and be
like I just killed this person.

Speaker 3 (31:38):
No, yeah, it wasn't like that, but I did like, when
the moment happened at thisparticular character, I did.
Yeah, I had to pause writing fora while, yeah, so I didn't
write for the rest of the dayand, yeah, just kind of had to
take a moment for myself Because, like, yeah, I don't even know

(32:01):
where to go from here, which was, which was interesting, because
, yeah, you do get attached tothe um, especially like, yeah,
if you're writing about them, um, like you know, you get
attached to characters as youread them, but, yeah, when
you're actually writing aboutthem, to kind of feel a part of
you, um, so, yeah, you do getthat attachment itself yeah, one

(32:23):
, one more thing that, um, youknow, I think a lot of these
locations like differentsanctuaries that you also kind
of feel a bit like they're alive, like they're kind of like
characters with their own, liketheir own challenges and their
own benefits, and you know yourcharacters have to choose to
like leave some of them and liketry to save other ones of them

(32:50):
and like try to save other ones.
Um, wait, yeah, no, I I thinkthat like there was definitely
um, the like the first kind ofplace, like the haven.
I think um was definitely thefirst kind of place.
That, yeah, that I like I triedto create as its own character.
And so then like, yeah, whenkind of something happens there,
um, that not only only thecharacters are really feeling it

(33:11):
, but you as the reader arefeeling like, oh shit, this is
probably the end of what'shappening here.
And so, yeah, definitely withHaven, I really focused on
making that a character in andof itself, like focus on um,

(33:32):
yeah, making that a characterand love itself.
And yeah, the.
The others were kind of, yeah,just more like, yeah, bringing
the sense community, but yeah, Idefinitely felt like, yeah,
haven was its own character forsure yeah, when, when, uh, when
you, when your characters haveto decide to, like, leave
certain places, does it kind ofalso feel like a bit of a a
death of a character when theyleave those places too yeah, for
sure, yeah, and it's like, butit's also, um, you know, you're

(33:55):
trying to give the sense like,um, like in the apocalypse, like
you can't really call anyoneanywhere home, um, so like, and
you've also like you've got tokeep moving on as well, like you
know, to survive, like I feellike, yeah, in a lot of these
apocalypse kind of situations,like if you stay anywhere too

(34:16):
long, you get too comfortable,and that's when bad things are
going to happen, so you kind ofgot to keep on your toes.
But it's definitely like, yeah,like when people feel like,
start to feel that sense of homeand then they have to leave it,
yeah, it can be kind ofheartbreaking for them, but then
, yeah, they continue to findhope in a new place.

Speaker 2 (34:38):
It's interesting because humans are, by nature,
really meant to be migratoryspecies and we've become really
sedentary literally sedentary inmy day job at least.
Um, yeah, but also like we, wecling to like places and we stay
there for a long time, andthat's not actually, um, how we
lived ancestrally for a longtime and also in an apocalypse,

(35:00):
like you said.
It's not a thing that is veryfeasible to assume.
You can be somewhere for a longtime, but why do you think it
is that people still feel thaturge to find a place and just
believe that this is going to beit.

Speaker 3 (35:12):
Yeah, it's funny because where I'm from, I'm
originally from Ireland, so wehad the English invade us.
We were at war with them for300 years, you know, we were
like at war with them for like300 years and so so, like I know
, like certainly in Ireland, umlike so we, we weren't allowed

(35:34):
to like own property, like, ifyou're an Irish Catholic, um,
you couldn't own property.
And so I think definitely, likeIrish people have this
ingrained thing that like likewe have to own our own house and
like you know, like own our ownland and stuff like that.
So it's this um sense of kindof um defiance because like,

(35:56):
yeah, something got taken fromus before.
So, like you know, we won't letthat happen again.
And we were, you know, we wereat war for, however, hundreds
years, and and then that kind ofjust gets passed down.
It's not spoken about sometimes, but it's just kind of.
It's like instincts kind ofgets passed down.

(36:17):
But similarly, though, for Irishpeople, because we had the
famine as well.
So we are spread all over theworld as a result of that, and
then there's a large portion ofIrish people that love to travel
the world and explore newcultures.
So that's something I think youdefinitely get a mix of people.

(36:38):
So like, when I go to America,there's people that I've met
that have never left their ownstate, but then you meet people
who have been all over the worldmet that have you know they've
never left their own stage.
Yeah, and then yeah, but thenyou know you meet people who
have been all over the world.
You know, I think there'sdefinitely a mix of people.

Speaker 2 (36:57):
Definitely.
I think I have an Irishquestion, if that's okay.
Sure, you mentioned the Irishfamine.
My understanding was it wasbecause food was withheld.
Is that true?
No, no, no.

Speaker 3 (37:10):
Well, sorry, to a certain degree.
So effectively, it's kind oflike zombie apocalypse actually.
So Irish people were very poor.
Well, irish Catholics were verypoor because, yeah, we didn't
own our own land.
Our economy was heavily relianton farming, but we had to give

(37:33):
most of what we had to Englishlandlords, so we had to pay them
, give them food and stuff, andthen what happened is it was
called potato blight.
It's basically a virus in thepotatoes, so it was killing all
the crops and potato is likekind of the main staple for poor

(37:55):
Irish people.
So when this blight happened,their main source of food was
gone, so they didn't really eatmeat because the meat would all
go to rich people and Englishlandlords and stuff.
So with that main food sourcegoing, people were starving.

(38:17):
So there was some Englishlandlords that would do soup
kitchens and stuff like that,but for the most part part they
didn't really care and so theylet the people starve and so
that's why you saw this massexodus.
Um, so I think we were.
We had a population of like sixmillion, I think, um,

(38:39):
pre-famine, and then that wentdown to like two million.
Um, wow, so, uh, yeah, there'ssomething like 3 million or
something like that, um, likeyeah, fled the country, like
mainly to America, and on bothum like to Boston and New York,
where the kind of main uhdestination, Um, and then the

(39:00):
one like yeah, plenty, stagethey died off and um, and then,
yeah, that potato disease kindof went away eventually, um, and
then, yeah, we're at I thinkwe're at a population of like
five and a half million now,something like that.
Oh, wow, so we're back topre-famine level.

Speaker 1 (39:18):
It sounds like such a small number.

Speaker 3 (39:20):
Five and a half million, yeah, yeah, well,
that's yeah, because we were,yeah, we've been chatting before
.
Yeah're like asking about, um,how I meet so many of um kind of
irish celebrities and stufflike that.
And it's just because, yeah,ireland is bloody tiny and so,
yeah, like I mean, I can gohalfway around the world and
I'll meet someone like, uh,either they're, they're from

(39:44):
ireland or, you know, they'vegot family there, and stuff like
they'll spit out a name like,oh, do you know?
Like I really get annoyed by itbecause I'm like like you know,
we're this tiny country, weknow everyone.
And then they'll say the name Ido know them that's pretty wild
.

Speaker 2 (40:02):
I think this.
Thank you for taking us on thatjourney and educating me a
little bit, because I think Iremember learning about the
potato famine in school, butthen I'd heard recently there
was something around likeunequal distribution of
resources too, so it's a littlebit yeah yeah, it was, it was
about.

Speaker 3 (40:19):
So basically, yeah, that's basically.
Yeah, the crops were alldestroyed and stuff like that.
And yet the, the englishlandlords, were basically like,
well, like the, the Irish peopleare kind of like, so human kind
of thing, so they're um, soyeah, they didn't care if we
were dying off um, some likesome days, um and and helped out
.
But for the vast majority, likeyeah, don't care it's a

(40:41):
disturbing trend that we seehappening.

Speaker 2 (40:43):
Yeah, it does feel like going that direction again.
Yeah, and I think the story ofthe Irish people, irish Catholic
people, as you're saying is anexample of an apocalypse like
losing what like three quartersor two thirds of your entire
population is an apocalypse, andI do wonder how that seeped
into your storytelling.

Speaker 3 (41:07):
Yeah, I mean, I think everything irish people do like
that there's um, yeah, there'sa sense of history and and
everything that we do, so um,yeah, whether consciously or or
subconsciously, like I'm surethere was influence there.
Um, but, um, yes, like yeah, ifyou ever watch like a promo

(41:30):
video of anything to do withirish sports or or ireland in
general, like it's all about,like, yeah, history and pride
and nation, stuff like that, um,so definitely, uh, it
definitely forms part of ouridentity.
And then, um, and stuff likeyeah, because I go back there
often.
We watch Irish sport.

(41:54):
Irish rugby team is playingWales today.
We're favourites for anotherchampionship.
There's a lot of rivalry amongthe British Isles and amongst
the team, but they aren't kindof tough for the last two years.

Speaker 2 (42:13):
I'm ancestrally on the other side of this Gerard.

Speaker 3 (42:16):
Well, it's okay, so is my wife.

Speaker 1 (42:21):
And I don't know where I'm from.

Speaker 2 (42:23):
I mean, I know very little and who knows if it's
even true.
You kind of wonder that mygreat uncle did a lot of, uh,
lineage work, but just him.
And then I've heard things.
I've heard that we're Welsh,but I don't know, I don't
actually know our.
Canada.
My family's been in Canada forsix generations now, so it's
been a long time, but I do haveto ask you a zombie related

(42:43):
celebrity question is it truethat your parents are really
neighbors with cillian murphy,the star of the 28 days later
series?
Parents?
true is it?

Speaker 3 (42:54):
true, okay, yeah, and uh, killian, killian, look at
me.

Speaker 2 (42:59):
Yeah, there you go, yeah the fact that I even had a
sense of a celebrity's name isimpressive.

Speaker 1 (43:04):
I gotta say yeah I think yeah, yeah recently
learned that it was killian andthen then I forgot.

Speaker 2 (43:09):
But for like solidly 20 years I've been saying it
wrong you heard it here first,if you haven't heard it before,
fellow americans, it's killian,yeah, um, have you?
Yeah, have you ever tried toget the end into his hands?

Speaker 3 (43:23):
I have not, um, because, yeah, it's rare that I
would see him.
Um, I used to see him moreoften, like when I, when I lived
over there.
Obviously, um, um, but uh, yeah, no, I I haven't um, I probably
could try.
But yeah, um, yeah, it's um,yeah, it's an interesting one.

(43:45):
Yeah, would he, would he takeit?
But like, yeah, I mean, youknow, like I've said hi to him
plenty of times um, his, uh, mydad's dogs and his dogs tend to
get tangled up quite a bit.
So a really nice guy, very nicethat's very cute.

Speaker 1 (44:03):
That's your six degrees of separation.
Is that your, your, uh, yourdad's dogs and his dogs are
friends.

Speaker 2 (44:10):
I think you'd be first degree because you know
him directly.
All I know is that when youtold me that I have a friend
that is obsessed with KillianMurphy, who I'm also curious if
she knows how to say his namecorrectly, how obsessed are you?
Can you say this person's name?
Because we've only ever talkedabout it by text.
So now I'm going to have totest her.

Speaker 3 (44:33):
But I did tell her that I have an access point.

Speaker 2 (44:34):
Um, I'm not saying yeah, but technically she should
not meet her because I thinkhe's her hall pass.

Speaker 3 (44:37):
So I don't actually want to meet sorry, friend, that
I won't say your name um, like,yeah, it'd be really easy to go
up and knock on his door anyway, yeah, that's dangerous.

Speaker 1 (44:53):
It's not an enclosure or anything.
So when you were writing this,you were juggling a lot of
things, like a lot of us writers, you know.
Yeah, were you one of the 4amcrowd, or how did you juggle
that?

Speaker 3 (45:14):
Well, so, yeah, yeah it was.
It took me from from concept toactually finishing probably
like seven or eight years, um intotal.
Um, so it was a lot of like I'dbe on like a lunch break work
and stuff like that, or like,yeah, I got narrow here or there
.
Um, it wasn't like late nightstuff.
Um, that's why it kind of tookme so long, um, cause I ha, I

(45:37):
had the outline done fairlyearly.
Um, I thought, um, yeah, kindof fun fact is that.
Um, so I used to have quite abit of trouble getting to sleep.
About 10 years ago or so, Idon't know what it was, so some

(45:57):
people count sheep I basicallyplayed the kind of opening
sequence of the novel out in myhead as I was going to sleep and
that's what put me to sleep.
As dark as that is Same, yeah,yeah.
So, yeah, it was just, it wasliterally that I just played it
out as a scene and then I juststarted putting that to paper

(46:20):
and then, yeah, it just took along time.
So when you get an hour hereand there, because, yeah, like
full-time job, and then, yeah, Ihad my daughter two years ago
and then, yeah, we moved fromCanada to England and yeah,

(46:41):
career is pretty hectic at times.

Speaker 2 (46:44):
Just the move alone would block time out to really
do anything.
I mean I've moved from Canada,that's a.
I mean I've moved from canada,the us, but like you've moved
across an ocean, that's a wholeother logistical nightmare I
can't even imagine.
Yeah, I feel like twice in thelast five years uh, well, last
what was it?

Speaker 3 (47:03):
2019 I moved over to van and then 2022 came back.
Yeah, so early 2019 and thenlate 22 moved back over.

Speaker 1 (47:17):
So are you fully a plotter, or is there a little
bit of pantsing when you'replanning out your when you're
writing your novel.

Speaker 3 (47:29):
Yeah, I try and map out the, I map out the overall
arch, so I know where it'sstarting and where I want to get
to.
But then everything in betweenwas quite organic.
So I just kind of went to wherethe story was going.
So there was definitely like,yeah, there's plenty in there

(47:53):
that I didn't really kind oforiginally plot out, but the
ultimate, the kind of lastbattle sequence in the novel,
that was always kind of theplanned end and that was always
kind of the planned end.
But originally that communitywas going to be destroyed and

(48:16):
like, yeah, I knew, yeah, it wasgoing to be kind of dark and
offending.
But then, yeah, the way thewhole story went and stuff like
that, like, and now there's kindof fears here and there, yeah,
it ended up.
Yeah, I wanted to kind of fearshere and there.
Um, yeah, it ended up.
I, yeah, I wanted to kind ofend on a bit of hope.

Speaker 2 (48:31):
So again, I appreciate that I nixed the
destruction, so there is amoment um as much as there's
bleakness in this book until theend.
There are also really coolmoments of community building
and like rebuilding society.
Like, uh, fixing a steam train.
Is this, oh yeah, spoilerterritory?
No, no, no, go ahead okay, I'mjust curious if that was like

(48:53):
how did, how did thatinspiration come to you?
Was that something you knew wasgoing to be in there?

Speaker 3 (48:57):
um, to a degree, um, because I, um, yeah, so I, uh.
So this is kind of how they gotto Lakeside basically.
So I knew that Lakeside wasgoing to be way north of
California and I thought, yeah,the vast distance in America

(49:19):
when you want to travel anywhere, it's pretty big between the
states, so a whole group ofpeople aren't going to be able
to go on foot.
Gasoline is going to probablybe gone by the time that they're
going up there.
So I always envisioned a trainto get up, but what that would

(49:41):
look like.
And then in 2021, I was inSacramento for like a rock
festival and yeah, in kind ofold Sacramento they have like an
old train, like a tourist trainthat goes in and that kind of

(50:03):
like.
Yeah, that just kind of sparkedthat in me.
So I went back and rewrote thatpart, yeah.
So then I had the vision forthe steam train and that's how
that came about.

Speaker 1 (50:16):
I really love that idea.
Once I got to that I was justlike, okay, this is kind of
heavy metal.

Speaker 3 (50:26):
It was a heavy metal festival that I was at.

Speaker 2 (50:28):
I really like those parts of your story because you
don't always get to them if it'sa shorter metal heavy metal
festival that I was at.
I really like those parts ofyour story because you don't
always get to them if it's ashorter like, if it's a shorter
span of time and and being ableto see how a civilization can be
rebuilt is also inspiring andhope-inducing, like today's
societies don't.
Nobody's gonna be like you know, we need a steam train that'll
fix all of our problemseverything but it just shows
like there's, uh, the potentialfor humans to figure things out

(50:51):
in the long, in the long pictureof things.
I think that we can have hopewhen we think about it in that
bigger picture, and it's easierfor things to feel bleak if
you're just focused on like howshitty things are now, literally
, yeah, here in the us.

Speaker 3 (51:05):
So it's just nice to see that bigger picture yeah and
like, um, that whole idea, likein the novel, it so it's just
nice to see that bigger picture,yeah, and like that whole idea,
like in the novel, it's kind ofthat whole sequence is kind of
sparked by like, yeah, differentpeople having these kind of
light bulb moments.
Like you know, one characterthinks that like, remembers
being up at Lakeside and thatbeing a potential for a new

(51:27):
community, and then someone elsesparks on the the train thing
to mass transport everyone upthere.
So it's um, yeah, it's kind ofeveryone like um, focus on that
goal.
Like everyone wants to like oneset sense community.

Speaker 2 (51:42):
everyone wants that bit of hope, um, and they're all
kind of banding together tomake sure that that happens yeah
, and that's another example ofwhy it's interesting that you
have so many differentcharacters weaving throughout,
because it's not just about oneperson.
Although there is an arc thatwe're following, it's a reminder
that we need everybody.
I'm feeling very hopeful today.

Speaker 1 (51:59):
I don't know if this conversation will stop it.

Speaker 2 (52:02):
All right, be depressed again later.

Speaker 1 (52:04):
All right.
What originally compelled youto write a zombie apocalypse
story?
Specifically, have you alwaysbeen a fan of the apocalypse?

Speaker 3 (52:16):
uh, yeah, so like again, yeah, we kind of touched
on it earlier like some massivemovie buff um and yeah, um.
So like, yeah, george romerofilms are just like, I
absolutely adore them.
And then, like, yeah, like theWalking Dead kind of came out as
a comic, so like, yeah, I wasreading them before the show

(52:40):
came on.
I've got like a half sleeve,got a bunch of like Walking Dead
comic book images on my leg.
That's cool.
So, yeah, I've always been kindof, yeah, fan of the zombie
genre and so, um, yeah, when Ijust started writing, as I said,
yeah, it was like just kind oflike a visual dream that I was,

(53:03):
um, I like to put myself tosleep.

Speaker 1 (53:05):
And then, yeah, I just kind of developed a story
off the back of that and it justkind of naturally progressed
and I was like, yeah, there'ssomething in this, so I'm gonna
keep going with it yeah, thatreally adds up because, um, like
the one of the things that Iwas thinking while reading it,
it's like it's like this thisbook felt like it felt like the
entirety of, of, like a walkingdead series, almost like like

(53:30):
the, the vast storytelling thathappens from the very beginning
to the very end, and I could seeall those elements there, like
the found family, the characterbuilding, all of the various
challenges that you have to facein this new world, and then
rebuilding society.

Speaker 3 (53:51):
Those were all very similar to the, the walking dead
, so I could see all of those,those influences yeah, yeah,
yeah, it was definitely in that,um, there's, uh, romero's
landed the dead, um, so that um,that kind of inspired lakeside
a bit, um, because it's likeyeah, kind of like, yeah, they
kind of build their own citykind of thing, um like walled

(54:14):
city to keep everything out, sothat like yeah, so it did take a
bit of inspiration from that aswell I want to know did you
just like, as you were havinginsomnia, go beyond just your
initial intro in your brain allthe way through over time, the
whole story like you justimagine it?
uh, a few scenes so, um, yeah,so, like the, the prologue, and

(54:34):
then the first two chapters andthen the kind of the final
battle at Lakeside.
So those were the kind of threemain things that I can
generally kind of visualise inmy mind.
Yes, that was over the courseof many years, just having those

(54:58):
in my head.

Speaker 2 (54:59):
I think this is a kind of a brilliant writing hack
for people with insomnia.
Like I also have insomnia.
I don't know if I'm going towrite a zombie book, but I might
just start being like I'm goingto make a story while I'm lying
here in my head because you'reusing that dream space that
you're almost in, but not quite.
Yeah, I'm a genius.

Speaker 3 (55:16):
I can only play phone games while I'm reading a
zombie act, which is super badfor it as well, because it's
like your brain is toostimulated.

Speaker 2 (55:24):
Yeah, I'm not supposed to look at the phone.
It's so hard at night.

Speaker 3 (55:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (55:28):
Since storytelling has been such a big part of your
life, do you see yourselfsticking with zombie stories in
your writing, or are there othergenres you want to explore?

Speaker 3 (55:37):
So there's a couple of other genres, but I do have
continuation of the end a bit.
I do have a couple of shortstories that I want to explore.
So one about Vance.
So, yeah, what happens toexplore.
So one about Vance so like,yeah, kind of what happened to

(55:57):
him and like, yeah, kind of whatwas motivating him as well.

Speaker 2 (56:02):
I would like to know that.

Speaker 3 (56:05):
Yeah, so like yeah, like it'd be kind of yeah, it'd
be quite a short story, I think,like maybe 100 pages or so,
8200 pages, but like, yeah, Ikind of do want to develop that
at some stage.
Yeah, the teleplay is taking upmost of my time at the moment,

(56:25):
but yeah, I do have a dark story.
Like well, I've got a darkstory to tell which is kind of
inspired by.
I used to work with a murderer,whoa, a bit of a bombshell
there.

Speaker 2 (56:40):
Wait, you literally used to work with a murderer and
then found out they were amurderer.

Speaker 1 (56:45):
Or were you helping the murders?
I was not helping the murders.

Speaker 3 (56:50):
No, yes, this young guy.
He's like 20, something likethat.
I worked in a wine shop and hebriefly worked there.

Speaker 2 (57:00):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (57:02):
And, yeah, he got fired, he was barred and stuff.
And then, yeah, as he waswalking out the door, he said I
can't remember what he said.
It was something very weird.
And I just turned to everyoneand said I bet you 50 bucks like
this guy's going to come backand murder us all.
And he didn't.

(57:23):
But yeah, it was about six,seven months after that.
Yeah, he did end up.
Yeah, he killed one person andtried to kill two others.
Wow, um, and then killedhimself.
And so, yeah, kind of dark, um,but I like, yeah, so I kind of
have a story in my mind of, likeum, because, like, there was um

(57:45):
, you know, there was familymembers and stuff like that.
That like, oh, like you know,never thought you could do this,
and stuff like that.
Like it's so not him, and stuff.
But like, I always rememberthat moment where I said like,
yeah, this guy's gonna come backand kill us all.
Like, so it's the differentperceptions that people have of
someone.
Um, so I kind of have this ideafor a story where, um, you're

(58:09):
looking through the eyes ofdifferent characters, uh, like
how they see this person and thedifferent perspectives, and
then, yeah, something very darkhappens.
That's an idea for a story thatI have.

Speaker 2 (58:22):
That sounds fascinating.
I would read it, but also likehow creepy.

Speaker 3 (58:25):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (58:27):
To realize.

Speaker 1 (58:29):
You know, that's one thing that I love about the
genre.
If you set up the scene like inlike in your case, you have a
great world and there's justlike unlimited spinoff
possibility where you can tellpretty much any story.
So you could, you could tell astory about a guy who worked at
a wine store and then you know,zombie, apocalypse happens and
he's like I love murder yeah orno zombie apocalypse.

Speaker 2 (58:51):
That's just disturbing by itself.
I um yeah, why does my brainkeep doing this?
I think you're throwing me forinteresting loops, and so it
just short circuits, because I'mlike I have an idea.
There it is, it's gone.
Oh, that's what it was.
I need to know which countrythis was in this is in ireland.

Speaker 3 (59:06):
Yeah, it was in dublin okay, see, that was
important.

Speaker 2 (59:09):
I was immediately being like it's got to be the us
.
Got, got to be the US for this.

Speaker 3 (59:13):
I know yeah, yeah, no , yeah, so yeah, it was with a
knife.
So yeah, if it was in the US itwould have been a fun show, I'm
sure.

Speaker 1 (59:20):
Yeah, it would have happened the same day too.

Speaker 3 (59:22):
Yeah, yeah, no, thought process about it.

Speaker 2 (59:34):
In some way it's so much darker.
Yes, yeah, I mean, it's stillthe same outcome for everybody
involved, but the person who'smaking a choice.

Speaker 3 (59:38):
It feels like an even more intense choice.
Yeah, no, like that's the thingI think with the gunshot, like
yeah, like you know it's aninstance, but yeah, I think
there's something so yeah, kindof really raw and dark and like
yeah, really plotted out.
Um, but yeah, like yeah withand like with an instrument, or
or like yeah with your hands,like yeah, like a fire axe.

Speaker 2 (59:59):
I mean, that's also the.
That's also the hard part aboutthe zombie apocalypse is how
much of it is hand to hand yeah,yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
Well, that's that fire axe is intended for zombies
only yeah, yeah, you were fullof stories.

Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
I never expected Killian Murphy Co-workers with a
murderer, killer co-workerKillian.
Murphy Killer co-worker is agreat title.

Speaker 3 (01:00:20):
Yeah, yeah, mutually exclusive yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:23):
I mean the, the stab somebody.
It requires a commitment to theact, like like shooting
somebody, it's a switch, youknow.
Yeah, but it's a switch.
You know it either happens orit doesn't.
But a knife like, there's a lot, of, a lot of area that your
hand has to travel.

Speaker 2 (01:00:38):
I feel like I'm going to need to put in a short
disclaimer for like five minutesof this podcast.
We'll record it after.

Speaker 1 (01:00:43):
We talk about stamina .
Yeah, yeah, just one partdeserves a disclaimer.

Speaker 2 (01:00:48):
So asking for a friend what is a teleplay?

Speaker 3 (01:00:52):
So that, well, it's a screenplay, but for television,
for a series.

Speaker 1 (01:00:58):
I didn't know that there was a difference.

Speaker 3 (01:01:01):
I always referred to it as screenplay.
I think, yeah, I think nowadaysI think yeah, like it is just
screenplay.
But yeah, so like yeah, if yougo back and watch like older
kind of TV series, it'll sayteleplay by.

Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
So that's screenplay, it's teleplay.
See, I've been mispronouncingeverything today.

Speaker 3 (01:01:23):
Well, I think it's English, I think it's teleplay.

Speaker 2 (01:01:26):
Well, I'm closer to English than I am American, so
I'm going to go with teleplay.

Speaker 1 (01:01:33):
I'll stand for the um American pronunciation of it.
Good for you, we'll all cover.
We'll all cover it.
Um, what's, what's the biggestchallenge?
Taking your already writtenbook and then writing a teleplay
from that yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:01:48):
so like yeah, so I don't know like if you've've
ever actually looked at ascreenplay before, but they're
so different in terms of writingstyle and what you put in.
So, yeah, you have to be superdescriptive about a scene and
stuff, but it's dialogue heavy,it has to be.

(01:02:11):
It's dialogue heavy, it has tobe.
And like, yeah, my book isn'tthat dialogue heavy, like
there's plenty of dialogue in it, but like, yeah, when you're
converting it onto the screen,yeah, obviously you've got to
fill it with talk and bedescriptive.

(01:02:31):
And so that's the biggestchallenge.
Like I'm trying to make theconversations like really like
natural and slow.
Um, because, yeah, you reachstuff back and it like it sounds
so robotic and awkward, um, andlike, yeah, you just have to
kind of freshen it up.

Speaker 1 (01:02:45):
and so I'm constantly , constantly rewriting what I've
written yeah, whenever I'mwriting dialogue, my my rule,
that I try to follow as much aspossible, is that both people
that are talking are talkingabout a completely different
thing, like they're.
They're talking together, butthey both have different scripts
, so they're not actuallytalking about the same thing um

(01:03:08):
yeah, yeah, good way to.

Speaker 3 (01:03:09):
yeah, it's a good way to look at that because, yeah,
like yeah you're, that's thewhole thing.
Yeah, you're not supposed toknow what the other person is
thinking.
Yeah, and that's very hard todo when you're writing for two,
three people at a time.

Speaker 1 (01:03:37):
When I was first trying to teach myself how to
write, because I didn't learn inschool, this was like maybe
2008,.
I think I was like learn how towrite, I want to learn how to
do this and, um, the.
The first thing that I read wasuh, the screen was the
screenplay for dawn of the dead,romero's dawn of the dead okay
and it was incredible.
I I didn't know that ascreenplay was going to look
like that, because I read it andI'm like I can see the movie as

(01:03:57):
I'm reading this, like thiscould just be a book.
It's just formatted differently, so, yeah, yeah, yeah, like
that's the thing.

Speaker 3 (01:04:08):
Like, yeah, I'd encourage anyone to like, yeah,
who really likes a movie to readsome screenplays.
It's so interesting how ittranslates.
And then, yeah, you'll see allthe bits that they cut as well,
because oftentimes you'll watcha movie and it's like how did
they get from this point to thatpoint?
That's usually on the page, wow, but they've cut it out of the

(01:04:31):
scene.

Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
I didn't know that.

Speaker 1 (01:04:33):
Next time I'm dissatisfied, I'm gonna go find
the screenplay yeah, the secondscreenplay that I read was for
hot tub time machine, and it wasinteresting to compare the two,
because george romero'sscreenplay is exactly like you
see it in the movie, because,like everything that he wrote,
they're like this has to beexactly the way that george

(01:04:56):
romero wrote it, because it'sbrilliant.
Hot tub time machine couldn'tbe.
The screenplay couldn't be moredifferent from the movie
because so many producers hadtheir fingers in it yeah, so
like george romero's vision.
They were just like they're,just like you do, you, romero?

Speaker 3 (01:05:11):
yeah, actually, if you want an interesting one, if
you read the, the pilot forbreaking bad, so it's like it's
literally the it translatesbeautifully.
Like it's literally what waswritten on things, but like it's
all the like it's a littledifferences.
So originally it was supposedto be set in cal and obviously

(01:05:32):
they did it in Albuquerque, newMexico, because it's cheaper to
film there and stuff.
But yeah, if you're reading thescript, it's quite funny, all
these little differences, allthe California references.

Speaker 1 (01:05:45):
Yeah, I think I'm going to read that because it's
probably going to be great.

Speaker 3 (01:05:51):
It's a really good read.

Speaker 2 (01:05:53):
I'm glad it ended up in Albuquerque, because New
Mexico is fascinating from aplace for filming, yeah.
So what's next with theteleplay?
Like, how does one do this?

Speaker 3 (01:06:04):
Yeah, it's similar to traditional publishing.
Yeah, like sending it out toagencies and stuff like that.
So, yeah, it's going to betough, the chances of it
happening are quite low, butI've got to try.

(01:06:26):
It's something that I want todo, it's something that I've
always kind of wanted to getinto movies and tv, um, like
from a writing perspective anddirecting, um, but writing
mainly.
Okay, yeah, I feel like I havestories as well well, you've
already got a connection.

Speaker 1 (01:06:46):
Your dad's dogs are friends with killian murphy's
dog, so like, if you get yourdogs involved but yeah, I've got
another, but I'm not.

Speaker 3 (01:06:55):
Yeah, I'm not going to use it.

Speaker 2 (01:06:56):
I've got another too, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:06:59):
Well, some, uh, yes, my wife, um, her, her cousin,
was married to um like a filmand TV actor, Um, so um.
But like, yeah, like you know,there's that whole like one I w
I wouldn't want to awkwardlycome here to do this, but like,
yeah, I don't think it's kind oflike nice and I think it's good

(01:07:20):
to kind of try and do it onyour own as well, so I get more
of a sense of achievement, yeah,so, yeah, I'm going to do my
best to do it myself.

Speaker 2 (01:07:31):
Well, we're rooting for you, gerard.
That would be very cool and, uh, I think you're absolutely
right.
Like you got to go for it.
The only people who actuallymake it happen.
Go for it yeah sort of like azombie apocalypse.

Speaker 1 (01:07:41):
It might be hard, but there are survivors yeah,
that's it um, are there anyplans for a sequel to the end?
I know you mentioned maybe afew novellas, but is there an a
the end two?

Speaker 3 (01:07:56):
um, yeah.
So yeah, I I think yeah, maybethere could be because, like,
yeah, I did leave, leave thespace open, um, it's whether I
have the, the time and and uh,like the capacity, because it
does take a lot out of you andtakes a long time and kind of
balancing life with that.

(01:08:18):
But yeah, I'd definitelyprobably start with a few of the
short stories first and kind ofgo from there and see how that
fills out.
I'll start on the short storyfirst and see how it goes.

Speaker 1 (01:08:34):
I mean short stories must be so satisfying to.
Like you know, I've.
I've been in the in the thickof it for a long time and you
you spent a long time on on yourbucket, like being able to put
something out quick.
I could imagine that dopaminehit yeah, yeah, that's it.

Speaker 3 (01:08:52):
Like yeah.
So I'm more confident that,yeah, I could put it like, yeah,
I could put out a short storyBecause, like obviously, like
when I was plotting everythingout, like for the prologue and
stuff, like I did have that kindof backstory kind of mapped out
, like it's just not fullyfleshed.
So like, yeah, I've got, soyeah, I've got a few different

(01:09:15):
ways that that story can go.
So I think if I kind of focusedon it, I think I could put it
out pretty quickly.

Speaker 2 (01:09:23):
That's exciting.
Can't wait to see.
What is the backstory?
That's often always a questionthat's going on when you're
reading a book like yours, sosatisfying that for readers
would be wonderful.
It's been a real pleasure tochat with you, gerard, and for
folks who cannot see us, becausethis is an audio version, we
have gone from a beautiful greenbackyard to pitch black because

(01:09:45):
it is a Saturday now eveningfor you.
So I just want to say thank youfor doing this on a weekend and
taking the time to just chatwith us.
It's really been fun to get toknow you, and all of our fingers
and toes will remain crossed.
I'll be doing everything withthem crossed as you're working
on your teleplay.
Can't wait to see it.

Speaker 3 (01:10:01):
Oh, thank you very much.
Yeah, yeah, and yeah, yeah, so,and yeah, we've got, um, well,
I think this is going out inmarch, though, but, um, yeah,
doing it, doing a giveaway atthe moment, but, uh, instagram,
but I'm sure I'll do another onein the near future.

Speaker 2 (01:10:19):
Where can people find you?

Speaker 3 (01:10:21):
I'm just at Gerard Clark, author on Instagram, the
same on X.
I don't use X too much.
You'll find all my links on myInstagram.
That'll link to my Amazon pagewhere you can purchase my novel
or a kindle version.

Speaker 1 (01:10:40):
or if you've got kindle, uh, unlimiters, it's
free there yeah, all those linkswill be down in the notes down
below.

Speaker 2 (01:10:49):
Awesome and you can also hang out with us and gerard
at the brain munchers zombiecollective discord.
We have some good chats onthere, so if you want an inside
scoop, come, come hang out onthe discord with us.

Speaker 3 (01:11:01):
Yeah, there's some funny discussions that go on
there.
It's a good, good group ofpeople.

Speaker 1 (01:11:07):
Yeah, we've been enjoying it a lot, well thanks.
Thanks for joining us.
This has been a pleasure.

Speaker 3 (01:11:14):
Yeah, thanks for having me, it's been a lot of
fun.

Speaker 2 (01:11:20):
Twists and turns.
You never know what we're goingto ask, and I never knew
there'd be murderers in thisconversation other than the
regular ones in the book.

Speaker 3 (01:11:25):
Yeah, that's it.
Don't forget to put thatcontent warning.
Oh right, Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:11:31):
We'll record that after.

Speaker 1 (01:11:32):
Thanks everybody for listening to the Zombie Book
Club.
It really means a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:11:37):
We love you guys.
I know it's awkward to say it,but it's true.

Speaker 1 (01:11:40):
Yeah, I have intimacy problems and I have a hard time
telling people I love them.
That's true.
We've discussed that a lotlately.
Okay, I love you.
Are you happy?
I am.
If you want to support us, youcan leave a rating, a review.
You can send us a voicemail upto three minutes, no longer than

(01:12:01):
that.
It's against the rules.
If you wrote a book, you couldsend us an elevator pitch on
that voicemail.

Speaker 2 (01:12:07):
Like Gerard did.
That's how we got to knowGerard.
It was a great way to start.

Speaker 1 (01:12:11):
Yeah, it was a great pitch.

Speaker 2 (01:12:20):
Go back did.

Speaker 1 (01:12:20):
That's how we got to know, gerard, it was a great way
to start.
Yeah, it was a great pitch.
Go back and listen to it, um,but you can send that at
614-699-006 606 all those.
It's in the show notes.
It's in the look.
Just look at the show notes.
I am unreliable.
You can't trust the numbersthat come out of my mouth.
What am I?
A computer?
I'm a computer Leah.
Anyways, you can follow us onInstagram at
ZombieBookClubPodcast, or jointhe Brain Munchers collective on

(01:12:40):
Discord.
Also in the notes down below.

Speaker 2 (01:12:44):
And, most importantly , go get that book on Kindle
Unlimited or on Amazon.
Go.
Check out Gerard Clark onInstagram and X, if you're on
there just for fun.

Speaker 1 (01:12:54):
Yeah, also, you know what?
Blue Sky is cool.

Speaker 2 (01:12:57):
Yeah, come on Blue Sky with us, gerard.

Speaker 3 (01:13:02):
Yeah, I think I actually will join because I'm
morally waning away from X.

Speaker 1 (01:13:10):
Yeah, I'm making a list of people on that are part
of the zombie book club on bluesky, so if you want to be on
that list, you got to make anaccount, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:13:21):
But for now that's where you can come find us.
If you want to come hang out,come talk to Dan there.
I'm not really on there verymuch.
Gerard's going to be.
I just heard.
You heard the news here first,breaking news.
We hope, wherever you are, thatyou have a beautiful day or
night, or dreams about zombies.

Speaker 1 (01:13:37):
Yeah, have some lovely nightmares.
Thanks everybody for listening.
Bye-bye, the end is nigh.
Bye.

Speaker 3 (01:13:47):
That was a bit low.

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The End with Special Guest Gerard Clarke | Zombie Book Club Ep 86

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The End with Special Guest Gerard Clarke | Zombie Book Club Ep 86