'We Don't Sacrifice Kids to Zombies' with special guest Courtney Konstantin | Zombie Book Club Ep 104

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Welcome to Zombie Book Club, the only book club
where the book is actually acouple of toddlers that were
dumped on you by someone whosaid they'd be right back and
never returned.
This is my literal nightmare.
I'm Dan, and when I'm notditching toddlers with random
strangers, don't judge me.
I'm writing a book about thecollapse of our civilization,
where survivors of the zombieapocalypse become slave labor
and toddlers would havefull-time jobs to pay the bills

(00:44):
that they definitely have, justlike Jesus intended.

Speaker 2 (00:48):
And I'm Leah, and today we are humbled to be
talking with the zombie fictionpowerhouse, Courtney Constantine
.
Courtney is the author of thehighly acclaimed Sundown series,
where book one alone has over2,400 reviews and a four and a
half star rating, and her newestseries I know right,
Babysitters of the Apocalypse isalready taking the zombie genre
by storm.
Dan and I just finished bookone.

(01:09):
We don't sacrifice kids tozombies.
I feel like this is a good rulein the apocalypse.

Speaker 1 (01:14):
Rule number one let's not sacrifice these kids.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
And we are now on to book two.
We don't talk to strangers.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
Rule number two In the apocalypse.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
When Courtney's not writing about the end of the
world, she's out hiking, readingor being the ultimate friend
and ally.
Just ask her bestie Paris, andfellow authors Joe Salazar and
Alice B Sullivan.
We are truly honored andprivileged to have you on the
show, Courtney.
Thanks for being our ZomBestie.
How are you doing today?
I'm already in tears.
You guys are making me laugh sohard.
I am good.

(01:44):
How are you?

Speaker 1 (01:48):
I told you before we started recording.
I've had better days and Iapologize to everyone if I just
am completely out of my mind forthe next however long we're
doing this, but I'm exhausted.
It's been a week, but I'mtrying to pull it together with
as much caffeine as I canpossibly safely put inside of me
.

Speaker 2 (02:08):
It's almost like you feel like Vicky with two
children under the age of fivein the apocalypse.
I'm such a Vicky right now.
I love that that's become ameme.
She's a meme.

Speaker 1 (02:18):
She absolutely is.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
She's a meme or a mood, one of the two.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
A meme and a mood.
She's a meme or a mood.
One of the two a meme and amood.
She's a.
She's a meme and a mood.
That could be a shirt.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
I'm a meme and a mood we might have just came up with
a new business like slogan.
Yeah, I think that's it we'regoing into business together
courtney I'm in, let's do it wegot to meet each other for the
first time at living deadweekend and we had a sign that
our zombie friend, rod theZombie, was holding.
Do you remember what thequestion was that Rod had?
Oh, was it the zombieapocalypse or a 40-hour work

(02:50):
week?
Yes, was that the sign this?
is our first rapid fire questionfor you.
I would take the apocalypse.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
I get that.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
I love that.
Say more.
I just I think it's silly tosay I come from the generation.
Obviously, we started workingpretty young.
I've been working since likethe day that I could get a work
permit at like 15, I think iswhen I started working and I
have not stopped and that's beenover 30 years, right.
So I'm exhausted and sick of itand my husband and I often talk

(03:21):
about the fact that we're justready to just get rid of the
regular world, and I think weare going to do this once our
kids are done with school andstuff is just full time, nomad
it.
And I just I'm done.
I'm done with civilized society.
I don't, I don't want itanymore.

Speaker 1 (03:38):
So I thought you were going a different direction.
I thought you were like we'regoing to destroy the world.

Speaker 2 (03:47):
I mean, oh no, no, I won't do that, just because
maybe if I didn't have kids thatmay have kids at some point, or
whatnot maybe I wouldn't careas much.
But um, I do hope that they getleft something.
I mean, I don't, I don't knowif there will be much left for
them, but um, yeah, I'm justtired.
I'm tired and I just wouldrather write.
That's all I want to do.
Yeah, I want a world where allyou do is write, so I can read

(04:08):
more of your stuff.
I wish I'd turn faster.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
Let's say, let's say that you got your wish and it is
a zombie apocalypse, um, theone that you started because
you're like.
You're like I want a betterlife, so I'm gonna make
everybody infected with thezombie virus.
It's your fault.
What is your?
What is your weapon of choice?

Speaker 2 (04:31):
you know, I'm definitely going with something
like a crowbar, a knife, a pipe,something that I can swing hard
about.
I'm not uh, I'm not inadequatewith guns, but I'm not adequate
enough.
I, as we know from all of ourZobby lore, you need headshots.
I likely am more of a solidbody person if it came to my aim

(04:54):
, and so I'm going withsomething that I can swing.
So that would be my choice.
Crowbars are heavy.

Speaker 1 (05:01):
I got to do some more upper body workouts for a
crowbar A regular crowbar is nottoo bad.
I have one that's like fourfeet long and I used it at work
for many years, oh no, and I'vehad really intense days where
I'd had to use it for longperiods of time, like 30 minutes
straight without a break, and Icome home with rubberized arms

(05:24):
and hands that can't open upafter I've after I closed them.
So I, but I do think that acrowbar is a great weapon
because it's also a tool.

Speaker 2 (05:34):
Yeah, right, I'm thinking more of like the
smaller ones that you would findin a like a regular car or
whatnot.
Yeah, not what I have.
I definitely.
No, I definitely am not tryingto.
I mean, maybe throughout theapocalypse I'll build up some
upper body strength, but I don'thave it for that right now.
Swing that crowbar enough.

(05:55):
Well, I'm realizing now thatI've been like Vicky, your main
character, which we'll get intoin a second, but uses a crowbar
as one of their main weapons.

Speaker 1 (06:10):
And the whole time I was picturing this small woman,
Vicky with a four foot crowbar,Because that's my frame of
reference.
Is Dan's wrecker bar, yeah, soI was like, wow, yeah for like
smashing concrete and shit.

Speaker 2 (06:16):
Yeah, that's why I was like man.
That's heavy, so this all makesmore sense.
Courtney, this just shows youand you've been exposed to weird
things like I have.
It warps your brain.

Speaker 1 (06:24):
I actually downgraded my crowbar one year, but then I
left it on the fender of mytruck and drove away and I was
lost.
I'm like I guess I'm going backto the big one again.

Speaker 2 (06:36):
You know your crowbar could come in handy for this
next question.
It's the apocalypse Oneunlimited shelf, stable food
item is all you get to have forthe rest of your life.
You've like wandered into a uhhuge warehouse and there's just
one thing in it and you know youcould just hang out there and
like live it out.
What would you pick?

(06:56):
It's the only thing I can have,or, um, I can go out and get
other things, I mean, you canforage you can still forage.
This is like the one guaranteedfood item you're going to have
probably every day.

Speaker 1 (07:06):
Everything else will be kind of scarce, but you'll be
able to find it?
I think yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:11):
I am split between two different things and it kind
of just depends.
So one of the top things Ithink of is salt, and the reason
I say that is preservation ofanything else, right?
So if that's why I asked, if Ican go out and I can fish, I can
hunt, I can do other things,then that salt will always come
in handy to preserve.
And then also you have it forseasoning for vegetables or

(07:32):
whatnot else you can find, um?
So they thought that.
But then I thought any sort oflegume, right, so some any sort
of hard bean.
Um, because that comes with alot of protein and different,
you know, vitamins that youcould have.
So if, if I had to havesomething that was actually I
was eating, just that, then Iwould say some sort of bean,
like some sort of legume.
But if it was something that Icould use the other stuff, I'd

(07:52):
say salt.

Speaker 1 (07:53):
Yeah, I've been in a warehouse full of salt.
Might be a little much but youcould trade it.

Speaker 2 (07:59):
I could trade it, I mean, because in the end you
know, once you start to losepower, you no longer have
refrigeration.
You don't have, you know, so itcomes down to smoking and
drying and all those things, andsalt comes in handy Also just
flavor.
Well flavor.
Yeah, I need an update.
Dan told me that you two werebartering actually last night

(08:20):
via Instagram and I want to knowwhat is the current status of
your bartering in yourapocalypse, dan was making me
LARP or whatever it's called.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (08:30):
I believe that we agreed on a half a bottle of
iodine pills, an incompletefirst aid kit that is missing
its bandages but has a fullypackaged suture kit, gauze and
tape, and we agreed on the priceof five bullets and two apples.

Speaker 2 (08:51):
He threw in the apples at the end.
I didn't know he had apples, Iwas holding out, but I wasn't.

Speaker 1 (08:59):
We were talking about like 10 bullets and I'm like
I'm not getting rid of 10bullets.

Speaker 2 (09:04):
I got to pull out the apples would you eat a red
delicious apple in theapocalypse.
The most disgusting apple Iwould eat?
Yeah, yeah, 100, and I'm noteven a big apple eater in
general.
But see, for me I think themost disgusting apple is a green
apple.
Sorry, what a granny apple.
I don't like granny apples.
Wow, granny smith is really anupgrade.

Speaker 1 (09:25):
They're a little tart .
I understand, I love a granny.
Smith, I mean, I do too, but Iget it.

Speaker 2 (09:29):
I mean, I like the.
My favorite that we get up hereespecially is Honeycrisp.
That's my favorite apple.
Yeah, you are in a place wherethere's a lot of apples.
We got lots of apples.
I'm surprised two apples andfive bullets would be traded for
that.
But I guess it is theapocalypse Depends on where you
are.
I mean, it depends where youare and depends what else I had.
You didn't know what else I had.

(09:50):
Those are just the things Ioffered.
Yeah, good point.

Speaker 1 (09:53):
Yeah, I've still got a few more bullets.
You know I can trade for otherthings too.

Speaker 2 (09:59):
And, honestly, like going back to the weapon
situation.
Right, bullets are useful inthe beginning, but not to
everybody.

Speaker 1 (10:05):
Yeah, so I'd be useless with them, yeah, right
but I think the bulletsthemselves would be valuable, no
matter what yes, well, if youcould find someone else that can
use them and therefore the gunsthat they have I think I think
so many people would just thinkthat they're great with guns and
just be like I need all thebullets's so dumb.

Speaker 2 (10:23):
Isn't that this entire country?
Yes, Sorry.

Speaker 1 (10:25):
America.

Speaker 2 (10:26):
No, I mean, that's true.
I mean, it's the argument myhusband and I always, because
I'm not, I am a supporter of theSecond Amendment.
I am not against guns.
I'm against guns that we don'tneed.
Like you know, anybody thattries to claim I need an AR-15
for protection.

Speaker 1 (10:46):
You're an idiot and know nothing about guns.
But what if I need?

Speaker 2 (10:47):
30 of them.
You don't.
All you need is a shotgun,because as soon as someone hears
that, that's all you have to do, like that's literally, I mean
someone's breaking into yourhome.
as soon as you slide the slideon a shotgun, you're you're
probably scaring the piss out ofthem, and then that also has
better aim than you know.
It's just dumb.
I grew up with cops.
My dad was a police officer, soI had him and I had all of the

(11:11):
uncles that come along with thatand learned a lot about
self-protection, a lot aboutweapons and things like that.
So and I've been shooting Imean, I shot black powder with
my grandfather, like you know,I've done a lot of that kind of
stuff.
I still do not believe I havethe aim to be shooting zombies
in the head, so I'm not bettingon that.

Speaker 1 (11:30):
Yeah, it's a tough thing to think that you can do.

Speaker 2 (11:35):
I feel like this is the problem and we're going to
move on to our next Fabi Firequestion after this.
On the opposite end, myex-mother-in-law got a shotgun
never used a gun in her life andthought she heard a bump in the
night and it was her daughtercoming home later than she was
supposed to.
Nothing happened, but she toldus all about it and we were like
this is why you shouldn't havea gun and not everybody should

(11:57):
have them.
Yeah, or you should go take aclass, like fine, just go take a
course.
Um, but that's more depressingthan this conversation.
You found a working, solarpowered dvd player and box set.
You have one form ofentertainment, just one box set,
that you could watch the restof your life.
What would you choose to watchforever?

Speaker 1 (12:16):
yeah, it can be a tv show, it can be a movie.
It can be like one of thosefour packs that you get at uh at
walmart.
It's like the blade pack andyou get like the three Blade
movies but also like one that'slike the one season long Blade
TV show.
I have this.

Speaker 2 (12:35):
Didn't they do?

Speaker 1 (12:35):
a Blade TV show they did.
It was one season, it was onSpike.
I missed that.
I love Blade.
It had a different actor asBlade.
This had a different actor asBlade.

Speaker 2 (12:46):
This is a really hard one, because I want to lean to
the loved, the absolute lovedseries that I.
You know, movies and thingslike that I love, like Star Wars
.
I could watch Star Wars overand over and over.
But then if I had to pick a TVshow, I'd probably say something
like Lost, because every singletime I watch that it feels

(13:06):
different, because I seedifferent things I didn't notice
before, um, and it'sinteresting enough to keep my
attention.
Probably, I think if I had togo with the tv show, that would
be it.
That's good to know, because Iwas actually thinking like,
should I watch lost again?
And you just answered myquestion.
It's been a long time, yeah,yeah, I just actually
restarted-watching it like amonth or so ago, and I was like

(13:26):
I didn't remember that, did Ieven know that before?
Like so it's, once you know theending and you start
re-watching things, you're like,oh, I see how that made sense,
like why that meant something,and yeah, so I like that I only
saw the first season I don'tremember how.
So here's one of my worst traitsas a human being is I forget
everything.
So even though I watched it,I'm like how did it end?

(13:48):
so I think I'm gonna have totalk with you okay, maybe
offline you can tell me how itended and then I'll remember and
then I can watch it and enjoyit.
Okay, that's how this goes.
Uh, final bonus, rapid firequestion, just for you you're
traveling with a kid in theapocalypse.
They're five.
Obviously you're caring aboutfood, you're caring about
shelter, you came with clothesand diapers, but you can carry

(14:09):
one extra thing for them.
How do you choose what that oneextra thing is and what would
it be?
And you say they're five.
Yeah, see, one of the things Ithink is the biggest problem,
that would be the biggestproblem for children, is boredom
.
Right, I mean, it doesn'tmatter, that's the apocalypse,
they're five.
They are going to be born outof their gourd and you have to
do something to keep thementertained.
Um, crap, I don't know, becauseusually the way I've written my

(14:34):
stories is that my survivorsfind some sort of like source of
power, whether it's a solarpower or something, or they've
got a rv that has a generator orsomething, and in those
situations I've typically madesure there was some sort of like
Blu-ray or DVD player.

Speaker 1 (14:50):
Yeah, so you can put Shrek on yeah, anything,
anything.

Speaker 2 (14:53):
Because I just think that one of the biggest issues
would be just well, and they'regoing to drive you crazy.
I mean, I love my kids, but onlong rides I want to dose them
with Benadryl.

Speaker 1 (15:07):
Like we do with our dog.

Speaker 2 (15:08):
Yeah, right.
So it would be somethingentertainment based and I would
hope, if I had a power source,it'd be something like a little
mini DVD player or something.
Would, you sacrifice Lost for akid's show?
Yes, like Bluey, yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:22):
Put some Bluey on.

Speaker 2 (15:27):
I actually my kids were not.
Not.
My kids were over the age forbluey.
Um I, as I understand it, blueycauses adults a lot of, uh,
emotional turmoil, so maybe Iwould go with I didn't know like
I see, I see memes about howbluey's mom is like exhausted
and all these moms are like yeah, I get that like I'm like, so
maybe I should watch this show.
That would be a smart kids show.
Should be smart enough to dothat because it's like when I

(15:48):
watched simpsons as a kid I hadno idea what was happening from
the adult perspective of thatshow, but a lot yeah, makes me
want to watch the simpsons.

Speaker 1 (15:56):
Now, the simpsons, you know what?

Speaker 2 (15:58):
all 26 seasons of the simpsons is my, my, my box set
actually that's not bad I mean,that's another one that it would
be like I forgot.
Any of that actually happenedyeah.

Speaker 1 (16:08):
And actually I think they're at like 36 or 40 seasons
.

Speaker 2 (16:11):
They're still going.

Speaker 1 (16:12):
Oh God, yeah, Wow, I think so.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure, in fact.
Sad news I saw a thing thismorning that the person who
voiced the actor for Margepassed away.
Oh, voice the actor for marge.
Uh passed away.
Oh, oh, that's very sad.
Um, anyways, let's talk aboutyour book.

(16:32):
Uh, so you want to be a writerever since you were a kid, right
?
Um, yeah, was there aparticular story that, uh, that
you wrote, that inspired whereyou are now in your career, or
that you read?
Maybe?

Speaker 2 (16:48):
No, I mean.
So I used to write like poetryand things like that when I was
a kid.
I was never very good at that,and I was a heavy romance reader
as a kid, so I thought romancewas going to be what I wrote.
While I tried to do that that Ican never finish a story it
just never like happened.
I would kept writing the samestory over and over and I would

(17:11):
get to a point where I was likeI don't know where this is going
.
Um, I've always really loved,though, just like mad max movies
and, uh, you know, terminatorand anything that's kind of like
apocalyptic, futuristic, thosekind of things.
I've been very into those kindof movies ever since I was a kid
, and so when the idea came tomy mind about the Sundown series

(17:35):
, the idea was basically what ifone of those situations
happened that I've watched overand over again and read, but I
had no way of contacting myfriends or family across the
country?
How would we like, do we have aplan to come together?
And that was kind of whatstarted the first book, and then
I finally found that I couldfinish a story, and so it told

(17:57):
me that this was the thing Ineeded to be writing.
This was the thing that I wasinvested in and it felt really
good and so it just kept going.
I would say the zombie portioninspiration on that would
probably be Jonathan Mayberry.
Patient Zero was one of myfavorite zombie books there for
a really long time and RottenRuin his series Rotten Ruin so

(18:20):
those were kind of my biggerlike zombie books that I read.

Speaker 1 (18:24):
I think I remember back in that time I think I
remember you mentioning thatwhen we were at Living Dead
Weekend and I'd never heardanyone mention that book before
because I also read it.
I remember like 2007 orsomething, a period of my life
where I spent mostly daydrinking and not working, a
period of my life where I spentmostly day drinking and not

(18:45):
working, and I remember readingthis book, just like laying in
bed until like from morninguntil afternoon, just like
reading this book, and I don'treally remember much about it,
but I do remember reading it.

Speaker 2 (18:58):
It's actually funny because I'm not a military
sci-fi reader at all, butJonathan Mayberry's Joe Ledger
series, I mean, I started withPatient Zero because it was a
zombie.
That was why I picked it up.
I thought, oh, this is cool,and just fell in love with and
really it's the narrator too,ray Porter.
His narrator is phenomenal.
And so I listened to PatientZero.

(19:21):
I think I may have read itfirst paperback and then
listened to it, and then I justkept going and it turned out I
did like the military sci-fi, atleast of his.
But the Patient Zero was justan interesting take.
And then Rotten Ruin is juststraight up zombies, which is
great too.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
Yeah, that's one I haven't checked out yet, so
maybe I got to add that to mylist.

Speaker 2 (19:43):
What kind of zombies do you like to write about?
Slow, because a lot of the time, a lot of time, we get people
in here that, like I, wouldprefer a slow zombie in real
life, but I love writing fastzombies.
So tell me why you like slowzombies.
So I find that what I want towrite is the human aspect of the

(20:05):
apocalypse, right?
I don't want to write thesepeople that are just being torn
to shreds on a constant basisand I feel like, when you're
writing fast zombies number one,someone like Vicky, who is not
super spatially aware all thetime she's going to be dead.
She has no chance.
There is zero chance for her tosurvive, right Like 0.01% or

(20:27):
whatever of her chances ofsurviving.
And I want these people tosurvive.
I want their stories to bewhat's important in these books.

Speaker 1 (20:34):
So slow zombies and also fast zombies just scare me
and I don't want to write aboutthem yeah, I shared some of my
art and I remember your responsewas like those are fast zombies
and it was just like a scaredexpression emoji.

Speaker 2 (20:50):
I think, yeah, no, thank you.
Like, uh, the train to busan.
That movie freaks me out.
I love it, it is phenomenal.
But just like how fast they,they turn it like you know how
fast they move and then how theyliterally just like they zone
in on what they're after andthey go for it.
I'm like, yeah, I don't, Idon't like that, I don't.

(21:11):
So no, I don't write that Iunderstand um I also hope that
it's a slow zombie, if ithappens, because I'm not very
spatially aware either.
I feel I have a lot of vickyand me I think, um, but the
zombies are also.
I've seen you say elsewherelike the zombies are also not
the main.
Um, they're there, but they'renot the scariest thing in the

(21:32):
apocalypse in your books.
No, how do you, how do youapproach writing villains and do
you have like a favorite onethat you've ever written?
Um, so in my mind, villains arethe people that we already know
of, right, right.
So I think the favorite villainthat I created was in the
Sundown series and it's thefourth book.
It's in Torment, and I createda guy who decided that he was

(21:57):
gonna be a king.
Basically, he thought he couldtake over, but what he really
was was a drug dealer.
That was what started it.
He was a drug dealer and whenthe apocalypse hit, he realized
the power that he had overpeople that had addiction and so
people that you know.
He was either able to controlthe people that wanted the
product he had, so they weredoing his dirty work until it

(22:18):
just slowly grew into.
You know, he ended up with abrothel and he had a whole area
that he controlled, and then itwas people that just didn't know
how to survive on their own.
And here was this guy thatclearly had power, and so they
would do his bidding.
You know women that would selltheir bodies because he said so,
so that they could have foodand protection, and but that, to

(22:39):
me, is what would happen, likein the real world, if you.
You know, you see it all thetime when there are any sort of
tragedies or natural disasters,how fast people turn on
themselves, on each other.
It's so quick, and and I thinkthat there are weaknesses.
And then I think there arepeople that just don't know what

(22:59):
they're, what to do, and sothey will turn to whoever has
the power or the control, and itdoesn't matter if they're a
good or bad person.
They'll keep them alive, and sothey'll, you know.
So that was one of my favorite.
I wrote that book and I actuallyhad people like contact me and
they're like are you okay?
Because it was probably themost violent thing.
The stuff that happened withthat guy was the worst that I

(23:23):
had written Torture scenes andthings like that and everyone
was like, we think she's losther rocker.
I was like, oh, was that toodark for you all.
Okay, sorry, what's it like toput yourself in that mental
space?
Because, just for people whoare not don't know Courtney well
yet, courtney's not a villain.
Okay, courtney is the hero in astory, for sure.

(23:43):
So, like I always wonder whatit's like to put yourself there.
As an author, I think that apart of me wanting to be a good
person is understanding what thebad is Right.
So I, I'm not a blind goodperson.
I'm not.
I'm not blindly just like, oh,everything's roses and peaches
and the world is beautiful andthe sun is always shining.
No, it's not.

(24:03):
I'm realistic in the fact thatthere's criminals, there's crime
, there's dangerous people, andso I look at those people and I
say, okay, well, how can Iexasperate that?
And then I always know they'renot going to survive.
So in the end, in my mind, I'mcreating a really bad person and
then I'm going to make surethey die pretty well too.
So yeah, so that makes me feelbetter about creating the person

(24:23):
, knowing that they're not goingto make it right, like I know
that you aren't going to win, nomatter how good I make you.
My, my heroes are better,period, it doesn't matter.
You know.
So that I think that makes iteasier.
That kinds of that sounds kindof fun.
So, like when they're doingawful things, do you soothe
yourself by just imagining whatterrible way they're gonna die?
Yeah, and I'm not gonna giveaway how that guy dies, just
because it would be kind of likea spoiler, but I was super

(24:45):
happy with it.
I was very happy with it.
You heard it here.
Yeah, so if you get through thefirst few books, torment is
yeah, it's the fourth, thefourth book in that series.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
And the title says it all.

Speaker 2 (25:00):
Yeah, I kind of tied myself in.
This is kind of it's a funnystory that when I wrote prepared
, I was like, well, now I'mwriting more.
Can I do I make the titleslonger?
I'm like, oh, I kind of screwedmyself, so they're all just one
word.
So I think it's good, though itshows like a really good
progression, and is it?

(25:21):
I haven't read the Sundownseries yet.
Is it final at six?
It is.
Yeah, people aren't thrilledwith that.
Um, so I, I may do a, a newseries based on the same
characters, but hop forward soit'll be more dystopian than
post-apoc.
But, um, yeah, I don't knowsome writers I, you know, like,
look at, like I think it's likemark tufo's got like he's got

(25:43):
like 30 books or something, andhe's like you know, there's so
many writers that just keep.
And now Mark's is not justzombie, right, it is sci-fi with
all sorts of.

Speaker 1 (25:53):
he has a lot going on in that series Vampires,
zombies.

Speaker 2 (25:57):
Yeah, and something with God, whatever, whatever is
going on with that.
But you know, he's got like alot of different components that
can grow a series way bigger.
Mine's, mine aren't like thatright, they're very just general
.
This, these are the charactersand this is what's happening.
Um, and so I just felt likethis was this was a good ending,
uh.
But people were like, well, wewant more.
And I'm just like, oh, good foryou, thanks.

(26:18):
Do you just picture yourself inthe misery movie when people
say that you're like, oh no, ohright, no, I luckily never had
that.
Oh my goodness, could youimagine?
Um, yeah, no, but I uh it'skind of something we've talked
about before right, like we'reso accessible to readers.
So I talk to a lot of myreaders.
They contact me, usuallythrough facebook or sometimes

(26:39):
they'll email, you know, emailme directly, and I'm fine with
that.
I love, and I've never hadanyone be really nasty or scary,
and no stalkers, that's goodthat is very good.

Speaker 1 (26:52):
Do both of your series exist in the same zombie
universe?

Speaker 2 (26:57):
Yes, that was not initially the plan.
If people have read the Sundownseries and then they get to the
second Babysitter series orsecond of the Babysitter series,
they will pick up on someconnections, and the third book
there's heavy connections.
So I got that idea actuallyfrom and I may have already told

(27:18):
you this, dan, I don't rememberI got that idea actually from
reading Jonathan Mayberry, sohis Rotten Ruins series, joe
Ledger, is in it.

Speaker 1 (27:29):
Right, I do remember you telling me this.

Speaker 2 (27:31):
Yeah, and I got just the pleasure of meeting Jonathan
Mayberry at a conference,actually a couple of times, but
I asked him about that specificthing because I was getting
around to ending my first seriesand thinking about what I could
do with these characters and hesaid that it absolutely
delights readers to catch thingslike that, and so I was like,
okay, I'm going to do that.

(27:51):
So they are the, they are thesame universe, yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:55):
I do.
I do like that a lot.
There's a few, a few series is.
Series is is is that you knowthey have multiple series of the
same kind, of the same genre,and I love that they write in
the same universe, because Ilove that's what I love about
the environment of the zombieapocalypse is that, like you get

(28:16):
to the end of the story of yourcharacters after six books.
What's to say that you can'tstart over from the beginning of
this place that you've alreadybuilt up in your mind?
You built the world and tell adifferent story somewhere else.

Speaker 2 (28:30):
Yeah, but also the characters like I get a.
I don't know what it's like towrite a character I, I would be
so emotionally attached and havea really hard time killing any
of them.
Um, but when you love a bookand you love a story and then
you just have to sort of likelive with the fact that you
might never hear about in thiscase, like I know, I'm gonna
keep reading Vicky because I'vealready started the second book
but, like, if that was it, ifthat was the end, then I would

(28:52):
just have this world ofimagination in my own brain of,
like what Vicky is up to so forher to reappear somewhere.
Like, for this other person toreappear in book three.
I can see why that would besuper exciting.
Um, okay, so I I wish I knewhow long ago it was, but I it's
been a couple of years I wasasked to write a short story for

(29:15):
an anthology for the GarySinise Foundation.
It was a short run anthologythat all of the proceeds went to
that foundation and, um, uh, Igot the rights back to it.
But when I went to write that, Iwas still writing the Sundown
series and I was, like you know,I wrote these people that are
fairly well prepared.
They have a lot of knowledge,they were able to take care of
themselves.
That doesn't mean that you knowthey're ready for zombies

(29:37):
particularly, but they had beenraised by a prepper.
They had a lot of stuff goingon.
I was like I want to writesomething.
That is completely not surewhat they're doing.
And so Vicky was born, and thenI was like, okay, so then what
can I do to make her life reallydifficult?
I'm like, oh, here's some kidsthat's horrible, I'm a horrible

(29:58):
person.

Speaker 1 (29:58):
No, I I, I love flawed characters like that
because like, uh it you know,like if you read a lot of zombie
apocalypse not to trash onanyone, I don't want to do that,
but there there are some peoplethat write very prepared
characters and that can be fun,um, but when everybody writes
the most prepared character ever, it's it doesn't always work.

(30:20):
And when you write flawedcharacters like that's really
fun in the apocalypse becausethey're gonna screw up yeah, oh,
and Vicky does.

Speaker 2 (30:29):
Yeah, I think I think Vicky for me, you know, I loved
my the Duncan family from myfirst series.
They're near and dear to myheart, being the first series
I've ever written and peopleabsolutely love them.
And while they're prepared andthey have, they have really
strong humanity and all thesethings.
All these things, um, they justknew what they were doing and

(30:54):
it, and so it makes it a littleless like I guess I don't know
threatening or a little less Idon't know how to explain it
challenging for them.
Yeah, when I wrote vicky, herstory to me is the ultimate
story of humanity because sheliterally doesn't know how to
care and love for people, like,like love people.
She has.
No, she doesn't have theequipment.
You know we, most humans, areraised in and there's all sorts

(31:17):
of psychology around this thatyou have the initial bonds with
your parents and then thatcreates synapses in your brain
that teach you things aboutbonding and love and not that
everybody has that.
And that was what Vicky was.
She was someone that did nothave those connections from her
very early in her life and onlyreally learned that she was a

(31:39):
burden to people, and so whenthen she was stuck in a
situation of okay, now I've gottwo kids that are literally who
I was.
Nobody wants them right now.
I need to now be the personthat wants them and to watch her
have to go through all thoselike psychological, like issues
of like you know, I have to careabout these things.

(32:05):
It was just, it felt to me itwas like a story of humanity and
and overcoming you know, yourbeginnings and her.
Her fear of actually caring, Ithink, is like even though she
doesn't name it that immediately, but is palpable, because it's
like she doesn't want to careabout the kids and she doesn't
want to care about the otherpeople that she meets and at the
same time, she's so fiercelyprotective of those kids, like

(32:25):
there's never a moment where Ithink that she's going to ditch
them, not once it doesn't evenseem like it occurs to her.
So I I feel kind of bad becauseI don't.
I think that I'm obviously I'moften not very good about
explaining that there is aprequel to the series and I
don't think I ever told you guysthat.
So I apologize for that if youdidn't know that.
Um, because the short storythat I wrote for the anthology

(32:47):
is the prequel and it's only onebook.
It's not actually, if I think,on the audio.
It is at the end of the audiofirst audio book yeah, I think
it's at the end, but in that shedoes think about it and um, and
the place that she thinks issafe is not.
It ends up not being.
And, instead of saying I'mbouncing, she does take them

(33:08):
with her and it's a splitdecision and um, she makes it
really quickly and um.
But I think there's like a fewscenes, like in the first book,
where I think there's a scenewhere they're she's with the
other group and and gabby islooking at her through a window
and she's obviously very fearful, she's scared, and someone's
like she's looking at you andand vicky's like why?
Like she just doesn'tunderstand the, the concept that

(33:31):
this little kid is like needsyou, and she's like, okay, I'm
fine, whatever you know.
So, yeah, she goes through alot of ups and downs with that
for sure.
Yeah, I'm sorry I missed thatprequel.
I'm going to have to go read it.

Speaker 1 (33:44):
Yeah, I do recall it.
Now it's at the end of theaudio book.

Speaker 2 (33:48):
Oh, I just skipped straight to the second book.
It's over now, skip.
That's what happened.
I'm not kidding, yeah, um, butI uh I think.
Underneath that, though, isjust like she also doesn't seem
to know how to, or the beginninglike, physical affection is
hard for vicky too, and seeingwhat the kids even need there,
but she always makes surethey're eating, that they can go

(34:11):
to the bathroom.
There's some great scenes aboutvicky getting peed on that I
appreciated, and also therealness of her like regardless
of whether you wanted a kid ornot, or you chose a kid or not,
I think that vicky the way thatyou describe sometimes her
moments of snapping at the kidsor like not being her best self
felt very real and relatable,because I was putting myself in

(34:33):
her shoes and being like I thinkI'd probably also snap at this
kid right now.
Oh God, yeah, the peeing.
That's a true story.
I had a feeling I was the child, though, when I was little, and
I used to camp a ton with mygrandparents, and my grandmother

(34:54):
had taught me the process ofleaning on her to pee, and I am
pretty positive that I peed onher at least once.
And I love her dearly forteaching me how to squat in in
the woods on my own, um I, butthat was where I got that idea,
because it just made me laugh sohard and, honestly, like the
worst.
One of the worst things aboutkids is bodily fluids.

(35:15):
So I mean, and if you haven'traised kids and had to deal with
diapers and then all of asudden you do, it has got to be
the most disgusting thing everbecause it's not your child and
so I can't even imagine becauseI have only had my own kids like
having to all of a sudden lookat this baby and be like I have
to wipe, like what you know whatI mean?

(35:37):
And and Vicky already like justdoesn't have that connection.
And yeah, the physical, becauseshe's never known, you know, um
, what it is to have, not not somuch doesn't know what it is to
have physical touch, but shedoesn't know what it is to have
physical touch that doesn't havestrings attached and having
someone have some sort of I mean, yeah, of course the kids have
some sort of expectation of her,but it's innocent expectation

(36:00):
of we just want love and foodand caring and not not like I
want you for your body orwhatever you know the things
that she went through, you knowthrough her life.

Speaker 1 (36:07):
Yeah, you know, going going back a little bit to
talking about how the kids arenow kind of in the position that
she was in.
I didn't even consider thatthese kids are now orphans,
which is the same situation thatshe was in.
So she's now in the fosterparent category that she doesn't
have the greatest memories with.

(36:28):
I didn't even consider that.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
Yeah, I think that's kind of her mindset.
She doesn't really say it somuch, but it's like I think that
as she kind of grows with themand realizes that they, like
these, are the first people inher entire life that needed her
for anything no one's everneeded Vicky for anything and
they need her for something thatonly she can give them at the

(36:50):
time, and so it's something thatshe really has to come to terms
with.
And the girls also, the kidsalso, in turn become attached to
her, because that's what'sgoing to end up happening, right
, they're going to care aboutthe person that's caring about
them.
And now she has to figure outwhat do I do with this affection
?
What do I do with like these,these feelings that are real and

(37:12):
they're precious and they'refragile?
So she's just kind of figuringthat out as she goes, and then,
of course, there's a lot ofirritation, right, cause the
five-year-olds and know it all.
So I love Gabby, I love herrealness and I won't spoil it,
but what she's she says to asuper bad guy at the end was

(37:34):
wonderful.
I was like, yes, also, butmaybe, maybe fawning is the
better choice right now.
I don't know, kid, but I loveyou for standing up against this
person.
Yeah, no, she's great.
She's the reason I have therules on the titles, because she
has all these rules but theydon't really apply, not all of
them.
The car seats apply.
Having car seats in theapocalypse would be an important

(37:55):
thing for little kids, so thatapplies.
But all of her like she has somany, like we can't do this, or
you know, she has to learn thatthere are very specific,
important rules you know in theapocalypse and that she needs to
listen.
So that's where I came up withhaving the rules and the titles,
because Gabby's the rulefollower.
They also make me laugh.
Yeah, we don't talk tostrangers.

(38:15):
That feels extra important.
You'll see why.

Speaker 1 (38:19):
Yeah, there's a reason for it.
So there's rules that are stillapplicable in the apocalypse,
and then there's some rules thatdon't, some of the old world
rules.
They go away.

Speaker 2 (38:45):
What do you think changes the most?
Like what rules no longer existin quiet inside the house kind
of situation.
Now you need to be silent, youneed to be silent all the time,
and kids are not good at thatanyways.
Right, and so I think that'sone of the bigger ones is like
keeping how do you keep kidsquiet, having them understand
that silence is a rule and it'san absolute rule.

(39:05):
One of the ones I think thatalways kind of cracks me up and
I think is one of the most funthings to write about is that
you know stealing and thingslike that, those don't matter
anymore, right, so you canbasically just go in and take
whatever you want, becausethere's not anyone.
I mean, there may be peoplethat will try to stop you and
you know you'll have to facethose kind of things, but those
kind of rules are out the door.

Speaker 1 (39:29):
There's obviously no traffic rules anymore that.

Speaker 2 (39:30):
Yeah, um, so you know basic laws and things like that
, but the the you know we don'ttalk to strangers.
You know strangers obviouslyare a bad thing now and they but
I feel like they would be worsein the apocalypse, and so,
because a stranger could besomeone that's just recently
infected and you don't know, andespecially for a five-year-old,
they don't understand, and sothat's that's to me was like you

(39:51):
really need to make sure you'reunderstanding.
You do not talk to strangers,yeah they could also be
absolutely feral.

Speaker 1 (39:57):
Uh, that too right, like cannibals and things like
that, yeah like not not incontact with humans for several
months and suddenly they're justlike.
People are here and I'm excitedand also, I don't know, maybe
I'm imagining it.
I mean, there is a characterlike that in the book.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (40:10):
Maybe I'm imagining it.
I mean, there is a characterlike that in the book.
I don't know how much we wantto share about that.
I love her though she's that'sbet.
And she, yeah, I won't sharetoo much just because she's so
funny and you have to kind ofread it, but she isn't.
Yeah, don't talk to strangersunless the adults have the
chance to vet them first, unlessthe adults have the chance to

(40:33):
like vet them first.
But I think that she wasanother great addition for Vicky
, because Vicky was like thispoor.
She felt sympathy for her andalso knew that she was a little
nuts.
But she, this was.
Now here's this woman who'slike a grandmotherly figure who
cares about her, and Vicky hadnever had that before and she
was like like, oh, like you'rereally kind and um, I, yeah, you

(40:56):
might be a little crazy andthat's okay and I think, I think
characters like, like, uh, like, bet they, uh, they bring up
this other question too, whichis like do strangers know how to
raise your kids better than youdo?
Yeah, the one thing I havegotten questions about is like
why would this woman just leaveher kids and how'd this end up

(41:19):
happening?
And like, why would you eventhink something like that?
And I'm just like, well, Ithink that you know, when it
comes to parenting in general,not all parents are great, right
, that's just true.
There are parents that reallysuck out there.
We see stories of horrificthings that happen to kids all
the time.
I don't think that gabby's,gabby and tina's mom was a
horrible mom.

(41:40):
I think that she was slightly,um, unrealistic about her
ability of coming back fromtrying to save her sister and
maybe really didn't understandthe severity of what was
happening at that time.
I don't, I didn't write her orwrite that situation the way to
vilify their mom.
So I'm not, you know, I wasn'ttrying to like really say

(42:00):
anything about that, but I dothink that in the apocalypse
there were probably going to bepeople that are better for it
than others.
And I think Vicky's ability tonot give a crap about everybody
right, she cares about the girls, she cares about her group,
everybody else, like.

Speaker 1 (42:16):
I don't know if I need to worry about you.

Speaker 2 (42:17):
You're strangers, yeah, and so she's going to
dedicate the most of her energyto these kids, whereas their
biological mom had other peoplethat she was worrying about too,
and that doesn't make her a badmom, but that also meant that
she her energy went elsewhereand took her away from them, and
that's not.
I mean, that doesn't exactlyhappen.
The same thing like vickydoesn't have that type of

(42:37):
mindset.
She's like these are number one, period, the end, so yeah, but
then new people come into thepicture.
So like vicky's taken on thismantle that you know she's not
called mom.
That's very clear, at least asfar as I've read.
Uh, but she's basically playingthat role, whether she wants to
admit to herself or not.
And that comes in the picture.
And also theo um, a little bitinto the the.

(42:59):
I want to call it a show.
My brain's also blank.
It's a show.

Speaker 1 (43:01):
The book I want it to be a show.
It'd be great.

Speaker 2 (43:05):
Yeah, mc that would be amazing mc listens definitely
MC lessons?
Definitely we wish.
But they both point out thatTina is still using a soother
and I know that this is like areal thing.
Tina's like two right Mm-hmm.
And this is the thing that Ihear in regular life, not
apocalypse life.
Lots of people love to judgehow other people raise their

(43:26):
kids, Yep, and I'm curious aboutthat moment, Like it's
interesting to me.
Vicky, who's an alcoholic, alsodoesn't want to take away the
coping mechanism for thetwo-year-old.
But also is she right, becauseit's the fucking apocalypse and
all the rules don't applyanymore.
And, kid, you want to get weirdteeth and suck on your thing?
Then keep going.
Yeah Well, I think number oneVicky doesn't know the risks of

(43:50):
the teeth, like you know right.
But I don't think Vicky has anyclue, like she has never paid
attention to what happens to achild's teeth if they have a
pacifier until they're four orwhatever it is.
But I think at the same pointshe knows that her thing is I
need alcohol and that's whatsues me.

(44:15):
If this baby wants a freakingrubber thing in their mouth,
then they can absolutely.
She can absolutely have it, andI'm not taking it away from her
.
And not to mention the silencething.
We go back to keeping her quiet.
There's nothing else that doesthat right now.
Um, and she is not at the ageof understanding that, hey,
there's monsters, you have to bequiet.
That's only going to make herlouder.
And so when I think it's bet,that says, uh, she's a little
old for that and if he's like,she can have whatever the f she
wants.
It's the apocalypse, you know.
Um, yeah, it's, it's a choice.

Speaker 1 (44:37):
But I think vicky understands soothing because she
does it herself I, I could usesome parental advice, because I
think I'd be a terrible parent.
Um, because when, when, the,when the stakes are, I, I tend
to remind people of howdangerous and terrifying the

(44:58):
stakes are.
Um, even if they happen to be achild.
So, like the whole, likemonsters are outside, I'd be
like hey, listen, please don'tscream at the top of your lungs
because there's rabid humanbeings outside of our window
that want to break in andfucking kill us.
Anyways, good night, sleep.

(45:18):
Well, I'm gonna close the doorand turn off the lights, because
if the lights are on, they'llbe able to see in through the
window and we'll try to attackyou in the middle yeah, but
you're trying to reason with atwo-year-old.
Yeah, like yeah do you thinkthat's the way to do it, or is
there a better way to do it?

Speaker 2 (45:32):
I think there's an honesty piece in it.
I mean, there's the scene I'mtrying to remember exactly where
it is, but uh where they'resleeping in the back of a car
and gabby starts screaming inthe morning because there's a
zombie and vicky's likebasically, shut the fuck up.
Like you do not understand,you're making it worse.
Like you're screaming is makingit worse.
I think gabby's age she knowssomething bad has happened like

(45:57):
she may not totally understandhow, obviously isn't gonna
understand how it happened.
She knows there's monsters.
A two-year-old, though, is,even if you did tell them all
the stuff that you just saidthey're gonna look and be like
okay, like they.
Just there isn't thatunderstanding yet.
Um, I think there's somehonesty.
That does have to happen,though, at an age where they're
going to look and be like okay,like they.
Just there isn't thatunderstanding yet.
I think there's some honesty.
That does have to happen,though, at an age where they're
starting to understand where,like Gabby is like you.

(46:18):
You know there's monsters.
You know that you're screamingis making it worse.
So zip it, and that is your jobis just to zip it, and she does
kind of figure that out.
There's a few scenes where sheseems to like keep her sister
quiet and take care of her,because she's aware that that is
my job.
Like I'm five, I'm old enoughto do this and I need to keep
myself quiet and try to helpkeep my sister quiet.

(46:39):
It's so dark to think about too, like all the times where she
had to help with protecting tinaor taking care of tina, and
she's three years older.
Um, it was a little devastatingto read.
I don't know what that would belike to to write and have to
think it through.
And again, going back to therules, like, um, in regular
societal rules it's, we don'tkill people.

Speaker 1 (47:00):
Yeah, but it's not a thing anymore.

Speaker 2 (47:02):
Yeah and like, how does that, how does that shape a
five-year-old's mentality whenthey have to, like, grapple with
the killing people is going tobe possibly normal?
Yeah, and I think, um, becauseyou guys are getting into the
second book, you're gonna seethat gabby sees a little bit
more of people and not zombies,um, that end up being dangerous

(47:26):
for her and um, but she'sunderstanding how serious
vicky's rules are and and whyshe thinks the way that she
thinks and things like that.
And, yeah, it's, I think thatthere's, and Gabby kind of
reminded me of me, right?
So, in a way, because I am onlythree years older than my next
sibling and it was, I alwaystook care of my sibling, it was

(47:48):
always my thing.
It didn't matter that they werehalf my size and I'm trying to
like lift them up and walkaround with them.
That was who I was, and so I dothink that that is a natural
thing for a lot of oldersiblings, especially female
older siblings.
Um, I think that we just I don'tknow if it's DNA or what it is,
but I think often that thatdoes happen in just regular
society.
And so, uh, vicky has goneinside a store that has a

(48:17):
vending machine that hasn't beenbroken into anymore or yet.
And while she's cleaning thisout, a person shows up not a
zombie, an actual person andstarts to peek inside their
vehicle and Gabby immediatelypegs him as he's bad and she
knows it, and so she hides withTina in their vehicle and then,
and then you know, vicky has tocome, but Vicky doesn't end up

(48:39):
killing him in front of her oranything.
She didn't.
They ended up getting away.
But it was a very smartdecision on Gabby's part because
she was able to say, oh, thisguy's bad, like he clearly is,
like not someone that I wantnear me or my sister.
So she, she's, she's a.
But I do feel bad because howare you not going to have
nightmares?
Yeah, I mean, I have nightmaresand I don't have any of these

(49:00):
things happening in my life tohave them.
It does also make me wonder,like I think, do we, do we think
kids are less capable than theyare?
Oh for sure.
I mean, especially these days,right, I feel like we've gone so
far the other direction thatwe've spoiled our you know, I
think, a lot of people.
I am not not one of theseparents.

(49:22):
I am horrible.
I spoil my kids Definitely.
Um, so I do think that there isa capability that kids have
they can rise to an occasion.
They're way smarter than wegive them to, like they could do
it.
They could do a lot of thingsthat we don't realize they could
do.

Speaker 1 (49:37):
They also seem to have like the sixth sense for
for danger as well.

Speaker 2 (49:41):
Um, I think so, I think they can.
I mean, I think that there'sobviously still all there's.
You guys will see it in the,the second book.
There's some other things thathappen and not all kids
understand if parents shelterthem too much from what's
happening.
You know, gabby, unfortunately,has had to see it.
It happens quite a bit in theprequel as they're escaping and

(50:01):
things like that.
She has seen a lot and so shehas not been sheltered the way I
mean maybe other kids could be,and not understanding how
dangerous everything is and allthat.

Speaker 1 (50:11):
Um, I think you're gonna, it's gonna, it's gonna
take all kinds right, they'reall gonna, yeah, so I, uh, I
recall, as a as a as a threeyear old, I'd been told about
strangers and I saw maybe anafter school special about
strangers.
And I was sitting in a grocerycart in a grocery store as my

(50:32):
mom turned around to look atsomething on the aisle and I saw
a stranger.
He had the dark long coat, hehad the hat, he had the dark
long coat, he had the hat, hehad the bushy eyebrows.
I knew that that was a strangerand I screamed at him don't
steal me.
And he walked away and if Ididn't do that, I would have

(50:53):
been stolen and who knows whereI'd be right now.

Speaker 2 (50:58):
Don't steal me.
This is my husbandney.
That's amazing.
It's spatial awareness as athree-year-old.
Yeah, I mean, I'm impressed.
I will walk into a lamppostregularly.
This is my dad.

Speaker 1 (51:13):
It's very useful in my life I spot strangers.
I know what they look like Ihave a question for you.

Speaker 2 (51:19):
Would you trust vicky to babysit your kids?
oh, hell, no, no, I mean earlyvicky or later vicky like okay,
later vicky, yes, yes, I thinklater vicky has figured it out,
um, and you know she has.
Yes, she still thinks aboutalcohol and things like that,
but she understands what'simportant and she's working

(51:41):
really hard.
So later Vicky, yes, maybe notbabysit.
She could be that cool auntthat maybe takes them to the
movies in the mall, like I couldsee that.
Yeah, early Vicky, no, no, Ijust no.
I don't need my kids drinkingwhiskey at the table with her.

(52:01):
Hey, kids, you like whiskey?
Yeah, well, isn't that like anold saying of like putting
whiskey on a baby's lips orsomething if you want them to
say On their gums?
Yeah, it's on their gums whenthey're teething.

Speaker 1 (52:07):
Grandpappy's cough medicine.

Speaker 2 (52:09):
Oh yeah, my dad was always.
My grandpa was always walkingaround with a mug full of
something.
He was drunk all the time.
I didn't realize that till Iwas much older, though yeah, he
was great, if it's the normalbehavior I loved him.

Speaker 1 (52:23):
We had a lot of fun.

Speaker 2 (52:24):
Now he did fall off of a ladder once and we had to
go to the hospital and now Ithink he was probably drunk, but
anyway, that's a whole otherstory.
Um, are you comfortable withgetting a little bit into the
villains in babysitters of theapocalypse?
I'm not sure what the spoilerline is with them.
Yeah, it's hard, right?
Um, yeah, I mean we can talk alittle bit about it.

(52:47):
I'll try to be as general aspossible, I guess.
Yeah, like, uh, because wehaven't talked about theo yet
and we can't not talk about theoand his really excellent hair
in the apocalypse, and hisreally excellent hair in the
apocalypse, which I appreciate,makes her so mad.
I would be pissed too, becausemy hair would be a mess.
Oh, so would mine.
But I feel like men get awaywith, like if they've somehow,

(53:10):
even if they've only chopped itthemselves with left-handed
three-year-old scissors, it'sstill going to look so nice.
And I'm just like why is that?

Speaker 1 (53:17):
Thank you, it's not fair gonna look so nice and I'm
just like why is that?

Speaker 2 (53:23):
like it's not fair.
I really appreciate thatcompliment, by the way.
I just feel like it's not fair.
I might do that, though I thinkif it was the apocalypse, I
would chop my hair, yeah same,I'd be short.
There's a moment with vickyagain.
Not gonna say it, but I waslike girl, you gotta cut that
hair.
Yeah, you would have been inthat situation if you'd cut your
hair yeah, does it?

Speaker 1 (53:39):
does it take a a close call like that?
Or do you think, do you thinkthat people uh recognize that
that danger before they get to azombie grabbing a handful of it
?

Speaker 2 (53:51):
I think it depends on how much you're willing to let
go of your old identity.
There's part of that, I think.
I think it's that I do have ascene in my Sundown series where
Alex chops all her hair off ina fit of rage because it was
dangerous and it made her mad.
I think for me it'd becleanliness right.
Like I have way too much hairand if I'm even able to keep

(54:15):
soap with me, depending on whatthe situation is, how much water
it takes to clean your hair.
All those things no, I'mchopping it all off.
It's not worth it to me.

Speaker 1 (54:24):
Yeah, Something that people don't write about enough
in apocalypse stories is likelice fleas, you know.

Speaker 2 (54:33):
Smelling bad.
I love when Gabby tells Vickyshe smells bad.

Speaker 1 (54:37):
You can always count on a five-year-old.

Speaker 2 (54:40):
It's always the kid that's going to say something
really crappy and she gets.
I love how she gets superindignant every time they get
dirty because they've foughtzombies.
Like little hands on the hipsand she's like we don't have
clothes for you.
Stop it, you're gross.
I do appreciate, though, that,amidst all of the chaos that's
happening and horrible thingsthat are happening, that there's

(55:03):
just the reality of likethey've got to figure out how to
have showers, how to do laundry, how to get food that's hot and
not um canned anymore.
Like they felt very real andalmost like I'm.
Like I guess life would.
You'd still have to just do allthe regular shit while killing
zombies, and you also depictthem like you talk with them
actually having to go to thebathroom which is a pet peeve of

(55:24):
mine, courtney when that justmagically never happens.

Speaker 1 (55:26):
Like people just don't have to do that story.

Speaker 2 (55:29):
Yeah, well, and I feel like with kids especially,
um, I think as adults, I mean,of course, toilet paper is a
thing, right, like you're gonnawant toilet paper, but I think
as, but I think as adults, we'llfigure it out right, we'll go
against a tree, we'll go, youknow what I mean?
I mean men again have wayeasier than women when it comes
to this.
Like you know, we got to squatand all these things.
But when it comes to kids, Iremember being that age and my

(55:52):
grandma being like you can peeon the side of no, I can't, like
it was.
It felt so like just upsettingand I and of course, I learned
and I figured it out, and so Ithink that there's that like
just that weird mindset.
So, figuring out that they needeither some sort of process,
you have to make sure that theygo pee in the mornings, like

(56:12):
they're almost like a dog, Imean, they wake up and they need
to empty their bladder, justlike, you know, a dog.
Yeah, people don't write aboutit very often and I think not so
much just because people ignorethe concept, but because it's
just the small, mundane things,but I think people do like to
read about some of that stuff.

Speaker 1 (56:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (56:29):
I enjoyed.
Like you know, a favorite sceneis them figuring out how to
wash their clothes and settingthat whole thing up the way you
describe it, and my favoritelocation they find, which I also
will not say what it is, andyes, I was devastated about what
happened next and that's mymost fake commentary I can give
you right now.
You'll have to tell me later,cause.

Speaker 1 (56:48):
I'm not sure which one you don't know Okay.
The location actually gave mehigh anxiety.
I'm like there's too muchvisibility here.
Oh, I love it, guys we got togo.
I was really hoping it wouldlast forever.

Speaker 2 (56:57):
Okay.
Okay, then I know what you'retalking about.
I love that location.
I thought it was super.
I think I know what you'retalking about.
I loved it.
I thought it was unique.

Speaker 1 (57:04):
Yeah, I've had unique experiences.

Speaker 2 (57:08):
Well, we will have to talk about that offline then,
because I want to know so whatcan you tell us about the
villains in Babysitters of theapocalypse, so I can say that at
the end of book two you get amuch more clear vision.
So you guys will get there.
About the villain, um, so theo,who's not a villain, right,
he's the other, he becomes amain character of the series.

(57:29):
Um, theo has a run-in with acult, and this goes back to what
I kind of said about thevillain that I wrote in um
torment.
It's just people looking forsome sort of existence, um, that
that they're gonna be able tobe safe because they can't do it

(57:50):
themselves right, so they arewilling to follow blindly, and
when they do that they end uphurting other people that won't
follow blindly and so.
So, unfortunately, theo has hada run in with these people and
kind of makes him a target,which in turn makes Vicky and
the girls a target.
So there's some things thatthey deal with.

(58:10):
It gets a lot deeper in booktwo.
In book one you find out whythey're after Theo, like he kind
of explains it, but then youhear about it at the end of book
one why they won't let gocoming after him.
And, yeah, people are psycho.
So that's kind of what I builtaround that situation that I

(58:33):
will say I'm doing.
So this series, my plan is sixbooks, but it's going to be two
separate arcs, and so the arc ofthis, these villains, is going
to close out in the book thatI'm writing now, I think that's
pretty smart yeah and then.
I'm going to.
I hope you're imagining thedeath of a certain person really

(58:56):
really like that.
That's going to be verysatisfying.
I think that I, the person thatI think to be very satisfying.
You'd have to be I, a personthat I think you're thinking of.

Speaker 1 (59:03):
We'll have to talk about this later I don't
actually don't want to tell you.
I don't want to tell you, don'ttell us, don't tell us.
I just it kind of like.

Speaker 2 (59:09):
Knowing that your process of writing a villain is
to like be real about the sickpeople that exist on the planet
and then enact your own form ofvigilante justice just makes me
excited, because I know thatthat's probably coming for this
one person, and I look forwardto that day.
Is it the one person in thesecond book?
Um, they're mentioned in thefirst book.

(59:29):
Well, now I don't know.
Oh, oh, yeah, okay, yes, yeah,and if everybody, if you're
wondering, you should just readthis book.
Yeah, yeah, if you're wondering, you should just read this book
.
Yeah, yeah, if you know.
Um, I also say I think likethere were some interesting
existential questions that vickywas facing around god and, like
you know, very early in thebook she's with a priest and a
nun right and they're they'relike the good side of religion

(59:52):
and spirituality.
They're good people, they carea lot about the kids and they're
so generous and vicky's likewhy are you being so nice to me?
But also they have a lot aboutthe kids and they're so generous
and Vicky's like why are youbeing so nice to me?
But also they have a lot ofdeep faith and I you can tell
that Vicky is like I don't knowabout this, and so it was
interesting to see you juxtapose, like, some of the beautiful
sides of faith and religion withhorrifying cult.

(01:00:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no.
I think God no-transcript couldbe a lot of beauty and humanity

(01:00:51):
in that as well.
And so Sister Anne and thepriest they were people that
those are the good people inreligion.
I think about my godparents,those type of people.
I think about the priest thatbaptized me, who's just a
wonderful person, and what thesetype of people would do.
But then there's the other sideof it.
There's the ugly side ofreligion, and it's not people

(01:01:14):
that I've ever personally known,the ugly side of religion that
people will follow blindly witha faith of something, anything
that gives them power or makesthem feel explains their
existence, and so the cultbecomes this thing of this group
of people, um, that havecreated this basis of why this

(01:01:35):
has happened and that they thinkthat they need to do certain
things to fulfill their cultishbeliefs.
And I'm just like this is uglyand disgusting, but I I wanted
also to show the humanity andbeauty that could come from
people that that believe theirfaith and they treat others with
with kindness.
So yeah, that was my, mytwo-sided face on religion in

(01:01:58):
that book.
I think you did a good job ofthat and also of Vicky being in
this place of like, which Ithink many of us are, and you
described for yourself at onepoint like of waffling, being
like I'm definitely praying toGod right now, but also I don't
know, and then something happensthat's good or bad, and is that
because I prayed or not?
Or did that get like felt veryreal?

(01:02:21):
Um, for just regular life, letalone an apocalypse, and I
absolutely think a cult like theone you described would crop up
in that kind of scenario,because on a regular day, people
like raving, meaning andsecurity, uh, in that context,
anything to make that feel alittle bit more okay and give
you purpose, it's very easy.
I won't this is another time,another story but I definitely,
uh, almost, joined a cult and Iwatch cult shows all the time

(01:02:42):
and I would do so.
I like not anymore, I think,but anytime under the age of 35
it's not that long ago for meabsolutely susceptible to cults,
absolutely.
I read, I so I have.
I'm in a book club and we reada book that was about a cult.
It was a whole thing and theending of it was so and I can't

(01:03:05):
remember the name of it now, butanyways, the ending of it was
so.
It made all of us so madbecause so many of us were like,
how could this person do thisand this and this?
Well, one of my girlfriendssaid that there's some
scientific study that says thateverybody is susceptible to a
cult in some way or form, likeeverybody has the ability to is
susceptible to a cult in someway or form, like everybody has
the ability to be susceptible toa cult.
And, um, as I watch cult shows,I don't understand it, but like

(01:03:26):
, if someone can, but I'm adisney adult and people call
that a cult really so yes, itadds up right.
So, like I, I'm like okay.
Well, someone came to me andsaid uh, you can't go to
disneyland every single day ofyour life, but all you have to
do is worship Mickey Mouse.
I'm like cool, let's do that.
I think that's how that happens.

Speaker 1 (01:03:45):
That's how you get the wristband.
You get a free wristband if youworship the mouse ears.

Speaker 2 (01:03:50):
What would the religion, the cult of Mickey
Mouse be?
What?

Speaker 1 (01:03:52):
are the rules.
Could you imagine that in theapocalypse?

Speaker 2 (01:03:59):
Yeah, I feel like it could be like a children's
they're wearing the ears,they're all wearing the ears and
they're all like crusted andbroken.

Speaker 1 (01:04:03):
And yeah, yeah, I could imagine it they start
singing the mickey mouse club umtheme song no, it would have to
be the the small world thatride.
It would have to be that I lovethat very slowly and uh we're
all picturing children in thiscall right now.

Speaker 2 (01:04:20):
Right, because that's what I was picturing adults I
was thinking adult I'm picturinglike an alternate gabby where,
like gabby goes which I think ispossible with any kid right
like we don't know where gabby'sgonna end up as human beings
same with tina they're beingexposed to some wild shit.
So what if gabby creates?
This is I'm now telling you youmust write Gabby as a future
child cult leader.

Speaker 1 (01:04:41):
You're welcome for all these ideas.

Speaker 2 (01:04:44):
I've actually wanted to write.
I haven't figured out quite howto do it yet, because Disney
has a lot of legal teams thatare very powerful and I don't
want to fight with them but Iwant to write a zombie
apocalypse in Disneyland.
I just have to figure out howto do it without getting in
trouble.
Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05:02):
You might have to make up your own theme park.

Speaker 2 (01:05:05):
Or pitch it to them as a show.
Oh right, a Disney show, dothey?
They have a zombie show, butit's like some teenage show.
Oh, I think we watched thetrailer for that and I was like
no.

Speaker 1 (01:05:15):
Yeah, I think I forced you to watch it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:22):
And it was bad.
And I'm like check this out.
It's not our thing, not at all,but they have everything on
Disney Plus now because they ownHulu, right, so they have it's
all on there.
So why couldn't they?
They could.

Speaker 1 (01:05:30):
They could, but will they, and what will it be?

Speaker 2 (01:05:35):
Yeah, you also are not.
You're not just writing zombie,apocalypse stuff.
You've written other kinds ofapocalypse books and you're
working on a thriller.
Now, how do you know like what,what inspires you to go in
different genre directions?
Oh goodness, people ask me todo it.
That's good.
Oh, so we're getting, we'regetting the mickey mouse cult
book.
Yeah well, I get really badwith saying no, that's, that is

(01:05:58):
a big problem.
I wrote two, two horrornovellas this last year for some
friends of mine who have apublishing company, and those
are actually based on well, sortof based on Disney stories that
.
So all of the these novellasthat we've written that there's
seven, seven authors that havewritten in it so far are based

(01:06:19):
on characters that have comeinto free market.
I think it's called free market, right, they're not copyrighted
anymore, whatever it is.
So my first one is called Wishand it's based on 1001 Nights
Aladdin, not Disney Aladdin.
And then my second one iscalled Steamboat and that is
based on Steamboat Willie, right.

Speaker 1 (01:06:36):
I think I remember you talking about this and it
sounds absolutely insane it'sfun.
My paris read them and she's adisney adult with me and she was
like these are horrific and Iand I can't believe you wrote
this what I love is that, uh, isthat disney kind of took like
these really horrific fairytales and then made them nice,

(01:06:58):
and then what you're doing isyou're turning them back into
horror yeah I wish that like Iwish some of the other ones, um,
that are more horrific are,were free market.

Speaker 2 (01:07:10):
I I'm gonna be doing another one this upcoming year
and I'm trying to remember Ithink it's I'm doing snow white.
I think the only thing that'snot free market is the dwarves,
and so I have to.
I have to create somethingdifferent for that.
But it's no white, it's freemarket.
So I'm going to be doing snowwhite, um, but yeah, so I I did
that and that's just becausethey asked me to, and I was like
, okay, cool, this sounds fun.

(01:07:30):
And then, um, a group of authorsgot together to do an emp, um,
so there's 13 of us and we areall across the world and we've
all um taking the same uh empapocalypse event and writing it
in our own ways in differentplaces of the world, and so

(01:07:50):
that's the um.
Ravaged skies shared worldseries.
My, my first one is whispers inthe dark.
Um, it was interesting to writesomething that didn't have
zombies.
It was fun, but you come backdown to the fact that only the
humans are the enemies now.
So that was an interestingwrite.
I am going to write some moreto that.
I just haven't done it yetbecause I have to finish Vicky's

(01:08:11):
stuff first, yeah we need Vicky.

Speaker 1 (01:08:15):
I started reading one series that was like an E sort
of uh sort of event and thewhole time like I had to keep on
reminding myself that there areno zombies right, so I'm just
like.
I'm like you can't, you can'tjust walk out in the daylight
like that.
What about the zombies?

Speaker 2 (01:08:30):
I'm like, oh, right, right, yeah that happens to me
almost everything we watch.
If there's any kind of likeominous vibe, I'm like when
where's the zombie?
And I get they, I can justpicture where it should happen
and I'm always a littledisappointed.
Yeah, I was trying to writeBabysitter of the Apocalypse 3
at the same time as I'm writingthis thriller series and it
isn't working so well.
So I'm trying to focus harderon the thriller to get it done

(01:08:52):
before I finish Babysitter's 3.
Just because the mindset forthe two different genres is so
vastly different that it wasvery hard to flip back and forth
.
The thriller is just.
I got asked by some friends ofmine who have a publishing
company.
They have a.
It's like it's called WithoutWarrant and what it is is it's

(01:09:15):
strong female characters that donot have law enforcement
background.
And so they asked me if I wantedto write a series under that,
and so that's what I'm doing.
I wanted to diversify mywriting and my business this
year, so that's kind of whatI've been doing.
That's cool.
I would read anything you wrote.
You sold me on Vicky Vicky'sfun.
She has to probably be so far,one of my favorite characters,

(01:09:39):
and if you like Vicky, you'regoing to like my thriller
character.
I think I told you guys who sheis.
She's a.
She's a stripper.

Speaker 1 (01:09:45):
So yes, she's right, she's fabulous yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:49):
I love that I.
I love, um anything with astripper lead, or the movie
that's going to come up by tinoromero drag queens.

Speaker 1 (01:09:57):
I forget what it's gonna be called, though uh, I
think it's, I think it's drag,drag queens of the dead is that
what it is?
Oh, queens, really means of thedead.

Speaker 2 (01:10:06):
Yeah, oh, I have to look into that.
But thrillers are actually myfirst love.
Uh, I love thrillers, so thatwill be super fun to actually
check out.
It's just now.
I've been brainwashed to assumethat a zombie should be around
every corner and every door youopen, and when people are loud I
get mad.

Speaker 1 (01:10:22):
So I think this podcast has warped my brain.

Speaker 2 (01:10:25):
I also love gore.
Now, we didn't even talk aboutwriting gore.
How do you feel about writinggore?
I think it's fun.
I think I must have some sortof violent streak in my head or
something that I don't likerealize, because I feel like the
gore is the fastest part towrite, it is the easiest.

(01:10:45):
The fights cut, they flow sofast, like what I wanted to look
like, what it feels like, thesmells, the taste, the touch,
like I.
All of that just flows so fastin my writing process.
So, for whatever reason, that'sthe easiest part to do.
Um, but I do also don't.
I don't do it like gratuitously.

(01:11:05):
I think that one of theimportant parts from my zombie
stuff specifically, is that, um,like I've said, like you said
before, like zombies are not themain character, and while that
is a threat and it does happen,I don't want it to be so like
overdone that people are like,ok, like this is unnecessary,
yeah, it has to be done enoughthat it still has impact.

(01:11:26):
If it's constant, it's not yeah.
But it is true that the morethat I've read and the more that
I've watched, the moredesensitized I'm becoming, the
day that I can look atsomebody's eyes getting ripped
out or their intestines comingout is when I know I've been
fully desensitized.
See, you have not been, you'realso at that level.

Speaker 1 (01:11:42):
Yeah, I can't no eyeballs I can't do.

Speaker 2 (01:11:45):
Um, my children actually know what they love to
torture me by like pulling theireyelids up and stuff.
I don't, um, I can't like theworst.
They are the worst.
And before I I had lasik yearsago.
Before I had lasik I triedcontacts.
I can't even do my own, I can'teven.
I can't do it Like eyeballs forwhatever reason.
So, like any movies, I think,like Saw probably has a few

(01:12:07):
really good eyeball scenes andI'm just like I look away and
freak out.
I can't handle it.
Yeah, I can't.
I haven't watched things likeSaw in a long time, but maybe
I'm ready.
We'll see.

Speaker 1 (01:12:21):
Yeah, I think that like uh, because the newest
final destination.

Speaker 2 (01:12:22):
I don't know if you guys want to see that.
Yeah, so they.
It's funny because I know thosemovies like the back of my hand
.
It's just one of those likecult things that you watch all
the time and at least I watchall the time, and not everybody
does this um, and it's justgotten more and more gory every
single installment and, and Ithink that we are as a just as a
species in general, I thinkwe're all kind of getting
desensitized to it because itdoesn't bother me all that much

(01:12:44):
anymore, unless it's eyeballs.
I don't like eyeballs Otherthan that, pretty much anything
I'm like oh, his head exploded,cool.
As long as I don't see hiseyeballs explode, I'm fine.
Yeah, it is.
There's something specificabout the eyes that feels really
vulnerable.
Leave your eyeballs out of it.
I don't know.
And you know what else stillgets me Home Alone where he
steps on the nail.
I can't, oof, can't, can'thandle that.

Speaker 1 (01:13:07):
Yeah, there was this group of people that made a
little visual effects short filmon YouTube and they just wanted
to make it over the top andthat was the whole idea of it,
and they did like a like aheadshot, head exploding shot
where the head exploded but thenthe eyes just kind of shot off
in different directions and Iwas just like that was just way

(01:13:29):
too much that was unnecessary,that feels unnecessary but it
was also hilarious, so I can'tyou know they did what they were
trying to do I feel like someof that stuff also, that is just
funny because it feels likeit's too much, and so then it
becomes more of a comedy than ahorror.

Speaker 2 (01:13:45):
Yeah, yeah, at that point, yeah, like zumbies too
that we watched recently.
It's just gore to laugh, um.
But sadly we have come to theend of this time, which is also
how I felt when I ended the bookand then realized there was
another one that I could keepreading, hence why I I probably
wasn't fully paying attentionwhen I heard like, oh, there's a
preview or something like that,and so I was like, oh, skip,
I'll just go right on to thenext one, but now I got to go

(01:14:06):
back.

Speaker 1 (01:14:06):
Sometimes I'll play like the beginning chapter of a
book.

Speaker 2 (01:14:09):
Yeah, so I just assumed that's what was
happening and clearly skippedthe prequel.
So I got to get to go back.
We got to we gotta go back, butregardless, really sad that we
are at the end of our time withyou today.
At least Hope to have you backagain.
Where can people find you andwhere should they start with
reading?
Like, where would you recommend?
I mean, I think it just dependswhat people like.

(01:14:30):
That's what my pitch always is.
If you like prepared people,then read the Sundown series
first, and if you like peoplethat aren't prepared whatsoever,
start with the babysitter ofthe apocalypse.
We don't sacrifice kids tozombies.
Um, you can find me on Amazon.
All of my books are almost allof my books are on audible.
You can find the sundown serieson Spotify and then, um, my
website is just wwwcom.

(01:14:51):
Uh, courtney Constantinecom.
Uh, constantine was a K, no Eat the end.

Speaker 1 (01:15:00):
I know that's difficult to figure out and I'm
on the socials like facebook andinstagram.
Yeah, yeah, and we will have.

Speaker 2 (01:15:03):
The links will be down downstairs in the
description area yeah, and thisis my official eye to eye via
zoom.
Apology to you for how manytimes I've referenced you on the
show leading up to having youon it and me being like
constantin, constantine, I'm notsure.
I'm sorry, courtney, and how?

Speaker 1 (01:15:20):
about all the times?
How about all the times thatyou corrected me for saying it's
true and you're like it'sconstantin?

Speaker 2 (01:15:28):
well, I mean, look, I'll just say it this way in the
us language yes, we would thinkit was constantin, but I have a
whole.
I can tell you guys off storyor off line why it is the way it
is.
Yeah, I was just Englishlanguage butchers things, cause
also we call foyers foyers.
So it's not foyer.
No, although it is, it's fine,it's fine.

(01:15:53):
Uh, thanks everybody forjoining us on book club.
Thank you, courtney, forjoining us.

Speaker 1 (01:15:57):
You, I appreciate you having me if you guys wanted to
support us, you could give us arating or review, or both.
Um, also give a rating andreview to courtney's books.
Um, five stars please.
Um, if you have less stars thanthat, then just get out of here
.
I'm kidding, kidding, dowhatever you want, but please,

(01:16:19):
no, don't Just give five stars.
Or you can send us a voicemail.
You could just say five starsin the voicemail, if you like.
We'll get it Up to threeminutes at 614-699-0006.
And you might find yourself ona podcast.
If you do that, you mightDepends on what you say.

(01:16:40):
I guess If it's horrible maybenot, or maybe, who knows you can
sign up for our newsletter.
We have a newsletter Link inthe description.
I'm trying to make it not go topeople's spam folders lately.
And also you can keep in touchwith us on instagram at zombie

(01:17:01):
book club podcast.
Um, also we have the brainmunchers collective discord.
Like I said, the links they're.
They're down below.
You can find them.
They're on every episode.
Yeah, um, but thanks forlistening everybody.
Uh, the end just is just sonigh and you heard it here it's
courtney's fault.

Speaker 2 (01:17:21):
Bye, bye, bye, bye, bye.
Courtney, thank you for beingwith us.
Bye, thank you.

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'We Don't Sacrifice Kids to Zombies' with special guest Courtney Konstantin | Zombie Book Club Ep 104

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