"Zombie: Survival Infection" with special guest James S. Cole | Zombie Book Club Ep 84 - Zombie Book Club

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to the Zombie Book Club, the only book club
where the book is a game, andthe game is a high stakes battle
for survival against hordes ofthe undead and your so-called

(00:27):
allies.
I'm Dan, and when I'm outfortifying my bunker and
questioning every life choicethat led me here, I'm writing a
book about the zombie apocalypseand how it's just an excuse for
people to stop being polite andgive in to their ugliest
instincts, and also howcompassion and community is the
only way to survive.
I like that part, me too.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
I is the only way to survive.
I like that part, me too, I'm.
I'm glad to hear that I'm leah,and today we have with us james
s cole.
Illustrator, writer, graphicdesigner and creator of zombie
survival infection, a card gamewhere you not only have to fight
off zombies but also,potentially, other survival
camps, which goes directlyagainst your dreams of
compassion and community.
Dan, or maybe?

Speaker 1 (01:02):
there could be in this game I read the rules.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
It looks like you are allowed to and you know.
Be friends, yes, people, butlet's stop talking about the
game about james, and say hello,james, also known as jim, how
are you doing?
Welcome to the show I'm doing.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
Great thanks for having me, uh and I'm.
I'm here to wreck your camp anddestroy your community, not my
camp.
I use my community to buildthat.

Speaker 2 (01:30):
We have plans for people like you in the
apocalypse, James.

Speaker 1 (01:32):
That's right, we got plans for you too.
Yeah, I'm going to be socompassionate, I'm going to be
compassionate all over the place.
We have some questions for you,sure, very important questions.
Some might say, uh, thatthey're the most important
questions, but the first thingthat comes to your mind, uh,

(01:53):
we're just gonna rattle throughthem and uh, okay, and then
we'll judge you based on themthis is a first, yeah,
personality test.

Speaker 2 (01:59):
Yes, this is science.
We ask every guest.
We're collecting data.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
You got the uh, the data agreement right, yes, yeah,
yes, all right, I signed itwith somebody else's name, so
that is acceptable, all right.
First question Do you preferfast or slow zombies?
So if it becomes a realitywhich here's to hoping I

(02:27):
personally like themaggot-covered,
pushed-out-of-the-grave reallyslow, crusty ones.
Those are definitely mypersonal favorite.
I know that is obviously theleast likely scenario, but
that's my personal favorites.

Speaker 2 (02:44):
I'm okay with that, minus the maggot covered part.

Speaker 1 (02:46):
If we could just avoid the maggots oh man, the
maggots and flies are howthey're going to transmit.
Yeah, maggots gotta eat too.

Speaker 2 (02:54):
I mean that's true.
Okay, I'll have compassion forthe maggots today um, all right,
so you got.

Speaker 1 (03:01):
You got your slow zombies, uh, and you've got a
choice.
You know some somebody sent youan email.
You've got a choice you canwork a 40-hour work week or you
can have the zombie apocalypse.
Which do you choose?
Oh, but without a question, I'mgoing the zombie apocalypse
because, well, I mean 40-hourwork weeks, about half of what I

(03:22):
normally work with.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
I'm always like creating and working.

Speaker 1 (03:25):
So, ooh, yeah, I'm still going to go with, I'll go
with the zombie apocalypse.
I I plan on making myself aleader and letting everybody
else do the work, and I'll justtell them that I'm the brains of
the operation.
So life's going to getsignificantly easier for me.
So, yeah, that's that's my goal.
Significantly easier for me.
So, yeah, that's uh, that's mygoal.

(03:45):
Hopefully that works out.
That's how people feel about uh, about, about, uh, following
leaders, right, right, somepeople get crazy ideas about
leaders.
Also, also true, I would say Ido have somewhat of a team
together.
Uh, my superstar, really, uh,he doesn't, I mean.

(04:07):
Also true, I would say I dohave somewhat of a team together
my superstar, really, hedoesn't.
I mean, he knows he's mysuperstar, but I haven't sold
him completely on it which is mybuddy, who unfortunately has
zero sense of smell.

Speaker 2 (04:18):
Oh me too.

Speaker 1 (04:18):
So I'm like, yeah, I'm like, dude, you are our
number one supply runner.
And he's like, and I was like,yeah, but you got first crack at
anything we pick up.
Yeah, it's you, you got it.
What you bring back extra isall good.
And I'm like you'll be set upin the community and you get
whatever you need.

(04:38):
And he was like I don't know ifI'm still on with this plan I
like, I like that the idea thatthe person without a sense of
smell is your, is your runner.

Speaker 2 (04:49):
But do they have?
A gag reflex and like do they?

Speaker 1 (04:56):
do they enjoy the sight of maggot?
Maggot infested flesh?

Speaker 2 (04:59):
He's, he's pretty resilient, so I think, I think
he's going to do well, I thinkeither way.

Speaker 1 (05:03):
I just got to smell it.

Speaker 2 (05:05):
Yes, this is not on our list, but I need to know
what would be your um rebellion,rebellion quelling technique,
if folks rose up against you.

Speaker 1 (05:13):
uh I think I'd have.
I, I definitely would have somemoles, oh yeah, uh, people that
would even, you know, havethrow out a little bit of
dissent and then see who picksup on it.
So, yeah, I mean, I sent youthat graphic that kind of
resembled a little bit of Neganin me, and I'm also in the

(05:37):
coming up expansion not this one, but the one after where you
actually get your leaders andyou can choose your leaders.
I am the brutal leader because,again, that was that's just
going to be my.
My technique is going to bemore of a Negan technique, about
75% Negan.
I'm going to take out the worstqualities but still keep that
you know that edge.

Speaker 2 (05:57):
I appreciate that I like Negan.
I'm going to go on record.

Speaker 1 (06:03):
I also agree.

Speaker 2 (06:03):
There's some things about him that are deeply
problematic, but I think thatthere's a part of him that makes
a lot of sense, but that's whatI do when he, when he crushed
the skinwalkers beautiful, yeah,absolutely beautiful.
So yeah, that was, that was,that was a great time and he
loves kids, but not in a creepyway which makes him lovable,
right, yeah, right, um, allright, so you've uh, it's the
zombie apocalypse.

Speaker 1 (06:23):
You chose correctly, you got the zombie and he loves
kids, but not in a creepy waywhich makes him lovable.
Right, yeah, right, all right.
So it's the zombie apocalypse.
You chose correctly.
You got the zombie apocalypse.
You got everything that youwanted.
You're slow shamblers with themaggots.
It's a zombie apocalypse.
No 40-hour work weeks.
What is your weapon of choice?
I'm going to go with I.
I'm not not going to have tofight very often again being in

(06:46):
a, in a you know position ofleadership here, but I'm going
to go with the uh the doublebarreled side by side.
Uh, it's only got two shots so Ibetter have some, some good
backup.
But it doesn't require aimingand makes a God awful mess and
I'm close, it's a.
It's a guaranteed kill, so I'mgoing gonna go with that.
Oh, and it's intimidating?

(07:07):
Yeah, it is, certainly it's.
It's a.
You don't want to be lookingdown the barrel of one.
Um, I've always loved thedouble barrel, like when I was a
kid uh, doing small gamehunting, that's.
That's what I used was a sears.
Side by side double barrel.

Speaker 2 (07:23):
Uh, back right, made guns I'm gonna ask them my dumb
question, number one of thisepisode, since I am not well
versed in games or guns uh, isthe shotgun that we bought a
double barrel?
No, it's a pump action oh cool,so the thing underneath is the
tube that you load the shellsinto cool, that was our pandemic

(07:44):
purchase and we've never usedit, thankfully, yeah it's not
too late.

Speaker 1 (07:49):
It's not a bad pandemic purchase so yeah, um,
all right.
So you know you're doing prettygood with your, with your double
barrel um against these, theserotting um maggot coveredcovered
skin skeletons, and you justhappened to come across a

(08:11):
warehouse, an unlimited supplyof a shelf-stable food item that
would last you the rest of yourlife.
It's impossible to count theamount.
What do you hope is in thatwarehouse?
What is your choice, man, shelfstable, that's really good.

(08:34):
I mean, I just heard this wasyour second last podcast.
The author his name, slips mybrain.
He was the yeah, with the peanutbutter, that's a very good one.
Yeah, definitely.
Again, it's very stable.
You can mix it with a lot ofthings, that's true.

(08:54):
And it has a small amount ofsugar, in case you need a little
bit of a boost, but isn't a lotof sugar where you're going to
be sawing off people's feet inthe camp or anything like that.
It's not like twinkies, likeyou're just feeding the camp
winkies non-stop.

Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah, that wouldn't be a good dropping like flies.

Speaker 1 (09:14):
They can't even outrun the shamblers.
No, yeah, so no twinkies.
Uh, peanut butter would begreat.
Um, obviously I should probablycome up with a smarter choice,
but that's the one that'ssticking with me as well I think
it's a good choice.

Speaker 2 (09:30):
I think it's actually the best choice.
No offense to everybody elsewho picks something different,
but I think it's the best choicefrom a from a like a food
perspective of high fat, lots ofprotein, a little bit of salt
and sugar.

Speaker 1 (09:41):
Yeah, exactly yeah a little bit of salt will help you
out too, depending where youlive, where you actually need
salt to retain water, yeah, soand then when we're getting very
little water.
You're going to want to actuallyretain water.
So yeah, yeah, and then youjust kind of like go out and
supplement that with you.
Know, you forage you, youscavenge um.

(10:03):
One thing that I that Iremember a long time ago, these,
uh special forces guys, theywould, instead of carrying bulky
mres in their bag that werevery heavy, they would just have
a small jar of peanut butterand they would actually mix like
a green um supplement powderinto it.
That's like a plant-basedsupplement powder that just had
like vitamins and extra mineralsand stuff.

(10:25):
Okay, mix it in and that'sthat'll keep them gone for a
couple days, right I thought youwere gonna go soylent green
there for a second.
Yeah, they start turning peopleinto food in the job and mixing
it with the peanut butter so ittasted better I mean that would
be more appealing to me thanlike seeing chunks of human in a
stew you don't want a fingerpopping up in your, in your bowl

(10:48):
.

Speaker 2 (10:48):
No, um, I want to talk about something happier,
which is james.
You mentioned.
You love to mix cocktails,especially old fashions and
margaritas.
Which cocktail would yourecommend for the zombie
apocalypse specifically?

Speaker 1 (11:02):
I'd go, uh, I would go, with old-fashioned, because
you got, you know, the, theburnt kind of quality of the
whiskey, but you're also gettinga good amount of sugar.
And, uh, you could, you coulddrink an old-fashioned when it's
warm out and when it's cold out, it doesn't matter where,
margarita, you want it to bewarm, not that that it has to be

(11:24):
, but you know so, and zombiesare pretty much old fashioned.
I'd be terrified of mariachizombies which, dear God, just
popped in my head I think wouldbe an awesome thing.
Yeah, mariachi zombies.

Speaker 2 (11:39):
That'll show up in a future expansion Bonus.
That was the bonus question.
This is the bonus to the bonusCause.
It just occurred to me howcould you use the shelf stable
peanut butter in a cocktail?
Is there anything you could do?

Speaker 1 (11:50):
Oh, dear God, don't do your peanut butter whiskey.
It's not good, it's good.
It's like a, like a sippingnovelty and like a chocolate
teeny with some peanut butterwhiskey Also good.
But I'm going to go like achocolatini with some peanut
butter whiskey also good.
But uh, I'm gonna go with no,no peanut butter.
If you're a real freak, okay.
Okay, you know, we'll rub thepeanut butter on the rim, which

(12:12):
just got really weird.
We'll rub the peanut butter onthe rim and you can partake
however you want refreshing?

Speaker 2 (12:19):
I will take your word for it and not try that.

Speaker 1 (12:21):
Yeah it's not, it's not good.
Oh boy, when did you firstbecome hooked on the undead?
You know your first love forthe zombie apocalypse genre?
Sure, I mean there there's.
There were a few things um, oneone that really, when I was

(12:43):
really young, uh, I was in kmart, of all places, that dates me a
little bit there.
Um, I've been in the game and Isaw this yeah, okay, I was in
the game art when they were hot.
Yeah, so it's a little priceyfor my family's, but okay, uh,
there was a book I just saw,randomly called the

(13:05):
Transylvanian Tourist Guide orthe Tourist Guide to
Transylvania.
In it was all these like darkillustrations.
Some of them were like weirdfantasy and made like zero sense
at all.
But there was an artist inthere, and what was his name?
I think it's Les Edwards.
I could be wrong, but he had abunch of illustrations of the

(13:27):
undead.
One which was like this zombielooking guy was pulling a mask
off, coming out of the sewer.

Speaker 2 (13:33):
There was another one .

Speaker 1 (13:34):
It was up close where he actually had some maggots
coming out of some eyes and youknow openings, and I was like I
don't know what this is, but Ineed it.
Like I don't know what this is,but I need it, and I asked my
mom to buy it and she flat outsaid, well, we don't have the
money right now, which you knowwas probably a polite way to say
no.
And I kept asking for it.

(13:55):
And for Easter I didn't get anycandy, but I got that book and
I loved it.
It was like instantly turned meon to this whole thing.
Years later.
Then I started getting intoother things like role playing
games.
You know, horror movies startedreally turning me on, not
turning me on.
Yeah, I'll edit that out.

(14:18):
No, we won't, I'll leave it,it's good, it's good.
So other things kind of creepedin.
I was, I got, I really likedthe artwork of Vincent Locke,
who was one of the originalcreators of Dead World.
Okay, I mean, dead World wenton a wild journey and a million

(14:39):
people worked on it and it gotsold and resold, but anyways,
vincent Locke's artwork reallystuck with me.
Then in high school I was luckyto go to high school with some
of the guys from Cannibal Corpseand they always needed flyers
and at that point I was intodrawing zombies and stuff and I
was like, let's do this.
So I made a couple of flyersback from them, which I was also

(15:01):
lucky to grow up in, buffalo,which was one of the one of the
central hubs of death metalcoming out, you know, very end
of the 80s, early 90s.
So I didn't.
That all played into that.
Me and a buddy made a fanzinefor you know the, the scene we
got to interview corpse and, uh,also sepplatero back in the day

(15:25):
, which was pretty cool becauselet me tell you, I can
understand Max Cavallaro, thesinger.
I can understand him betterwhen he sings than when he was
talking.
This is tough, but yeah, thatwas a super, super long story.

Speaker 2 (15:41):
Short that was that's what got me in.
That was my experience and I'veI've loved it ever since so
your first exposure to zombieswas through art, and then, when
did you actually start drawingzombies?

Speaker 1 (15:53):
I mean, that was again.
It was those flyers.
And now my mind is blanking um,because I know I gave you guys
some notes and now I'm like, ohGod, am I hitting all the points
for my notes?
Yeah, it would be on thoseflyers, on my notebooks.
I went to a Catholic school andmy mom got to talking where

(16:20):
they thought I was not right.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
Did they think you were possessed, James?

Speaker 1 (16:26):
not right possessed, but this was also.
I'm old enough that you know Iwas.
I lived through the saint panicpanic yeah, you know.
Dungeons Dragons was the deviland I started playing.
We mean, a buddy just had our40th anniversary last year of
playing dungeons dragons, sothat's amazing.
Yeah, yeah, and we still do, uh, almost every sunday, so that's

(16:50):
so cute.
You know, I love how thosepanics tend to like you know
that they're like you better notplay that it's, it's made by
satan.
And then it's like hmm, wherecan I get one of these?

Speaker 2 (17:03):
this actually is really kind of fun to hear your
origin story, because my nephew,who is eight, is obsessed with
drawing zombies and he drew me abunch of zombies actually this
winter.
That's what we bonded overZombies, ok.
And my mom, who I think stillhas the satanic panic maybe a
little bit, is like do you thinkCameron's OK?

(17:23):
I'm like, yes, yes, he justlikes horror, it's fine.
Also, he wrote he drew jeffbezos as a zombie and it was
like the greatest thing I'veever seen, fully unprompted,
just decided to draw he justhanded it to us.

Speaker 1 (17:35):
He's like, I'm like, how do?

Speaker 2 (17:37):
you even know who jeffrey bezos is you're eight
man, but I'm just thinking ofsomething yeah, I think when he
eventually comes to visit ushere in Vermont because he's in
Canada I'm going to show himyour game, or maybe I'll bring
it to Canada.
I think he would love to see itand it might inspire him to
keep drawing.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:54):
Maybe show him the coloring book, because I don't
know.
Did you get the coloring book?
We didn't.

Speaker 2 (17:59):
We're going to have to get it for him.
Him, no, I sent it to you.
You did, stupid Amazon.
Oh they suck.
Yes, we just anyways the book,but maybe it's still coming
because, like I said, we havereally slow mail where we are
that might have been sent inpackages yeah, horse and buggy.

Speaker 1 (18:16):
Well, yeah, I didn't.
I didn't.
It was coming directly fromAmazon.
I had it shipped out, so I'llhave to double check anyway in
there.
Um, I hint at my zombieapocalypse.
For the like the core game,like the expansion gives you
whichever apocalypse you want toplay, but for me there's like a
core one.
Yeah, and nobody's sure exactlywhat brought about this

(18:40):
apocalypse, because you know, asit started happening, every
society and everything'sdevolving.
The internet obviously isrequires power connections and a
small amount of maintenance.
Eventually it's going to giveup.
So but this rumor gets out thatsomebody, a construction worker
who was clearing a warehouse tomake make way for a new

(19:04):
distribution hub to a massiveonline store.
And my zombie apocalypse kindof.
The lore behind or the reasonbehind the apocalypse in the
game is only hinted at becausethe internet starts to break
down as the apocalypse happens,and so there's only rumors and
nothing's confirmed and somethings are actually taken down

(19:25):
which are most likely whatreally happened.
But the last surviving rumorwas that a worker at a
construction site in a smallPennsylvania town, while
clearing out an old warehouse,comes down with a mysterious
affliction.
Now they were making way for anew huge online retail
distribution hub.
I'm not going to say what baldguy might own this giant mass

(19:51):
place, but anyways, yes, that'sour patient.
Zero seems to come from thatarea.
Now there's more information ifyou get the comic book as or,
excuse me, the coloring book, asto what happened.
But yeah, that's, that's thethe start of it.
Clearly he said there wassomething else before that.

Speaker 2 (20:12):
Yeah, that is fascinating, and I think that
this is now my official zombiesurvival tip for this episode,
which is um stop buying thingsfrom the big box online stores
because it will cause a zombieapocalypse.
Stop buying from the barman.

Speaker 1 (20:24):
Yeah Well, we need more dick rockets.
Let's be real, that's what itall comes down to.
You know, I really appreciatekeeping the origin kind of
open-ended.
You have an origin and you knowthe rules, but you're not going
to tell the player everythingabout it, because I always

(20:46):
believe that that takes out alot of the mystery of it.
Unless your goal in a story isto solve the zombie problem,
which I also don't reallyparticularly like that much,
there's really no reason to gointo detail as to where it came
from and how it could be stopped.
It's kind of like a limited, atleast a hundred percent, yeah,

(21:08):
I mean, for me, part of that isthe is the not knowing.
Yeah, so it's part of thehorror, if you will.
Yeah, it's that, that unknown.
And most and then most stories,the most great stories, are
just like they're just regularpeople, they're not gonna know,

(21:31):
they're just reacting, they'rejust trying to survive it and I
think that's, uh, I think that'sit's pretty great to to have to
have that as as as your role?

Speaker 2 (21:35):
yeah, how would you describe james?
Like for somebody who's neverheard of survival zombie
infection before?
What is like your one-liner toexplain it to people?
For those who are new to it?

Speaker 1 (21:44):
sure, uh, one liner which, um, obviously I'm
long-winded, so it's not it canbe a time the quick one-liner is
uh, the game gives you a campverse, camp verse zombie
experience.
so this is not, uh, the humansversus the undead, it is the
humans versus each other, versusthe undead.

(22:06):
Which, for me, is really thedriving theme behind most zombie
stories is the shitty thingsthat shitty people will do to
each other in a shitty situation, and it just happens to be the
zombie apocalypse.
So in the game, everybodycontrols their own camp of
survivors, with the objectivebeing the last camp standing.

(22:27):
If you get knocked out early,you come back as the zombies,
which you'll most likely wreakhavoc on the person that knocked
you out Love.
So a smart player will stringalong the camp that's not doing
so well, kind of keeping them inthe game, but basically for
their own purposes.

Speaker 2 (22:46):
Keeping them alive.

Speaker 1 (22:47):
That's so diabolical, which and again, if you think
about it in a uh, in a thematicway, because some people are
like that doesn't make sense andI'm like mix total, take your
gamer brain out of this and nowput yourself in the theme.
If you you're in, say, a cityor town or whatever and you have

(23:07):
a certain amount of camps ofhumans, if one gets wiped out.
One now the zombies have lesstargets.
Two now they have more zombies.
So that was the driving factorof the game and for me that's
what I wanted the experience tobe was, yes, it's mostly the
other players, with the backdropbeing the zombies.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
Yeah, are these zombies um rapid onset zombies,
like you get bit or you die.
It's pretty much.
You just come back right away,so you don't have time.

Speaker 1 (23:36):
Yes these, these at the at the core are you die I
mean not like right right away,but yes, uh, when your survivor
dies in the game, like all ourpeople have what's called the
city center, which everybodystarts out with a camp with all
the people left in the city thatyou can recruit in your camps.
They sit in the city center.
When they die, the survivorchip gets flipped over to a

(23:59):
zombie.
Now the fun, cool, thematicthing also is you will see, the
orange are the survivors greenof the zombies.
Eventually the center just goesall green.
You know, you can just see ittake over the city.
Now there's no more people togain.
Now it's a war of attrition youversus the other ones it feels
very real and immersive.
Um, and I'm curious if there wasever a moment where you're

(24:21):
thinking about making this justa comic book or just a story or
a movie, and how you landed on agame oh, actually it did start
as a comic while we were on thesame wave, uh, so if you look at
the rules, in the center foldof the rules was uh, I added a
few panels, but that was aone-page comic that I made.
Uh, I made that comic becausethere was a band I don't know if

(24:45):
you know them calledCombiChrist they were.
They had an open call forartists.
They wanted, you know, likegritty horror artwork and they
were going to do short comics bydifferent artists and they did
an open call.
I made that, I sent it in, Igot accepted.
I was all excited, yeah, butthen they broke up for like five
, six years and I was like man,you couldn't hold it together

(25:08):
for me for a couple weeks.

Speaker 2 (25:10):
Come on, man I was depending on you to stay
together.

Speaker 1 (25:14):
Yeah, but this did indeed.
Yeah, it started as this corecomic and I will tell you, I
worked at a uh, at a greetingcard place.
We, we made handmade greetingcards.
Wow, what a shift.
Sorry.
I went to my co-workers At thetime I was the print room
manager.
I was like, hey, I'm doing thisproject.

(25:34):
I need photo references ofpeople.
And it's going to be I'm goingto have this twisted doctor who
experiments on the undead andeventually gets his comeuppance.
Who wants in?
And everybody's like yes.
And I was like, all right,let's do this.
So we took some photos, I gotit together and I made it so
that was that was like the coreconcept behind this.

(25:57):
Um, and I will tell you the,the doctor shows up throughout
the game.
I was gonna ask that question.
Yeah, yeah, he's.
He's on several cards.
One he is the research doctor,but two you see him die on
various other cards.
And there is new.
There's another new cards ofhim in the expansion just coming

(26:17):
up on the 25th and there willbe.
I've saved one more piece ofart of him for the the power
struggle expansion coming maybelater this year.
So that's exciting.

Speaker 2 (26:30):
Who is the doctor modeled after?

Speaker 1 (26:32):
He was a buddy a coworker at this place who was
in Buffalo.
He was kind of a he's a fairlywell known guy in the theater
like local theater.
He had done a lot, he workedwith a lot of people, he was a
director, but he was a lot oftimes he was an actor, he was a
coach to some people.
So the guy, like I, was like Iwould tell him what I need and

(26:53):
he knew it.
Like he took direction and hetook direction better than I was
giving direction, you know whatI mean.
Like he picked up on mythoughts and made it that much
better and I was just like dude,you are my guy because you're
great, and he even helped me outwith, you know, taking some
shots at other people.
So, yeah, he helped out quite abit.

(27:15):
But he was, he was a coworkerand I will tell you, most of the
people in the game are friendsor backers.
Yeah, I've, I've known somepeople like that, where they're
like they, they, they take whatyou're, what you're, what you're
giving them and they give backso much more because, right,
because of their, their, theiracting chops, their abilities to

(27:35):
just right, go with it and makeit incredible.
Yeah, and I, I think you know.
Obviously he saw my vision and,you know, was able to
articulate it better than mebecause I zero direction.
Yeah, you know skills.
I could yell at people to workfaster, but that was like that's
your, yeah, oh god, yeah, I wasbad at any managing skills back

(27:56):
then.
That is for sure.
So, yeah, they picked mebecause I was a good worker, so
that's how it happens.

Speaker 2 (28:04):
I've got to say, as somebody who's not, um, a gamer,
I mean I'm obsessed with acouple of games like katan.
I just play them to soothe mysoul, basically, and dissociate,
uh, and I've played a couple ofgames with dan and our friend
ollie who we wish could be heretoday because they are a major
gamer uh, that are zombierelated.
But the thing that immediatelyfor me, as a non-gamer,

(28:24):
attracted me was your art.
Uh, it's just so visceral, likeI'm looking at the back of the
what is the box right now andsomebody's getting bitten on the
top of the head.
It looks very painful it looksterrible time and I I think it's
really cool that you were ableto get like, did you this is

(28:45):
from an actual picture like didyou have folks?

Speaker 1 (28:47):
yeah wow, yeah.
So yeah, those are.
Those are former co-workers andyeah, we set that up, that is
uh those stairs.
You can't see it there.
There's another.
I think on the card you can seea little bit better, but that
was like the stairwell at workso, which we worked in a
repurposed um, it was anairplane factory in world war ii

(29:07):
cool.
So um, it was very, veryindustrial outside of the areas
that they refurbished.
So I got some great, like youknow, urban wasteland pictures
or urban blight that I still usein the backgrounds of other
things because it was so goodand I just walked around taking
pictures nonstop.
But we post just in the in thestairwell.

(29:30):
I think it was on a lunch break, so do you still have the
original pictures?

Speaker 2 (29:34):
Yeah, yeah, that is so cool.
I feel like a big collector'sitem one day.

Speaker 1 (29:38):
Yeah, Right, yeah, I love places like that, that are
like that, cause they just, theyjust bring ideas.
When you see them like, you'rejust like, oh yeah, you know
people will worry about you,because you're like just
standing in the middle of likesome desolate lot with like
grass growing through concreteand they're just like what, what
you doing?
It's like, right, this placelooks like the apocalypse and it

(30:01):
makes me feel good, yeah, yeah,like that rusted out 50 gallon
drum on its side.
The occasional mini fireballbottle that's smashed into the
grass.
It's always fireball too.
That's fireball or light beer.
Why doesn't anybody smash anycraft beer bottles?

Speaker 2 (30:25):
Maybe it's time for you to do it yeah uh, I know you
said earlier I think this hadbeen before we were officially
recording that you have beenplaying uh, dungeons and dragons
with a friend for 40 years andI'm curious what like compelled
you or what made you shift frombeing just somebody who played

(30:46):
the game to being like I need tomake this game um, it was, I
guess it was always.

Speaker 1 (30:52):
It was always kind of there.
Um, we started playing, uh, myone of my friends, older brother
, who was also a friend, um, youknow he was, he was the
smartest of us, so he instantlybecame the dm.
It was, you know, the guyrunning.
Uh, he could read the fastestwe were again, and, being older,
that helped because I think wewere all like what, like 10 at

(31:14):
the time, or yeah, we were all10 at the time so and he was
like 12 or 13.
So he was, he was a little bitsmarter.
But once we got rolling then Iwas like I like to create, I
like to tell stories, so I wantto be the dm.
It wasn't even like it didn'teven get pushed on me.
He was like I want to do it, Iwant to run it, I want to run
you guys through this thingthat's happening in my head,

(31:36):
let's do it.
So the, the storytellingaspects and that interaction
interaction with friends andfamily was always there and it
just I guess it was a naturalprogression to be like okay, now
let's just make a game so thatthat hit next, again, next,

(31:59):
obvious progression I mean itmakes sense and it also brings
together like your love ofdrawing zombies and telling a
story and playing games.

Speaker 2 (32:08):
It's like the perfect trifecta for what someone like
you could create I did do, uh,artwork for the rpg game kind of
industry.

Speaker 1 (32:19):
I used to be in some of the white wolf books.
I was, you know, used to dostuff for world of darkness and,
um, the people like twilightcreations which are the ones
that make the the zombies gamewith, was it?
Three exclamation part pointsuh, they did yeah yeah, so they
also did.
Um, they had the uh, mydeadlands property for a while,

(32:41):
so the the wild west withzombies and horror and stuff
like that.
They had their property for awhile.
So I worked on that board gamewith them so I did stuff with
that.
I let a job get in the way so Ilost all my uh industry cred
and lost all that momentum yeah,so I allowed me to travel the
world, it was not.
You know I, I don't regret theexperiences.

(33:04):
I got out of the job, but thenwhen I tried to get back into it
, it was not.
You know I, I don't regret theexperiences I got out of the job
, but then when I tried to getback into it.
It was really tough and I waslike, well, you know what?
I got this idea for a game thatI've been kicking around.
Why don't I just I'll just makemy own and do it so.
And plus, I like the challengeof learning new things.
I had to learn a whole businessof how to do it, the whole kick

(33:24):
Kickstarter thing, the wholemarketing for that Facebook ads
dear God, that terrible abyss ofdespair.
So, but I love the challenge.
So, yeah, that brought me tothat.

Speaker 2 (33:38):
I'm watching Dan trying to find the right
question that he wants to ask,sorry.

Speaker 1 (33:42):
I got a good one, oh, since I haven't asked many
questions.
Uh, dan, what's your?
Uh, what's your level ofnerdery and your nerdery of
choice, since you said you knowyou do some gamings and you like
, you like games.
Level of nerdery?
Oh, man, I guess it depends onwhere the nerdery is.

(34:03):
Uh, you know, I, I've alwaysloved dungeons and dragons, but
I never had people to play with,so I can't say that I'm, like
I'm, I'm not a 40 year dungeonsand dragons player, because, uh,
you know, if you add up all the, all the time that I've spent
playing dungeons and dragons, itmight just be a couple days
worth.
Oh, that's sad I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (34:26):
Yeah, you know I just didn't.

Speaker 1 (34:27):
I just didn't wasn't around the right people.
The most amount of uh, of ofrole-playing games that I played
was actually when I was in thearmy.
Um, because I found people inthe army that were into that
same thing.
So, like they, I I playeddungeons and dragons and they're
like uh, have you, have youplayed shadow run?
And I'm like I, I played it onsega genesis and they're like

(34:51):
well, it's right, it's like dnd,and I'm like what?
And it blew my mind and I gotreally into that.
Um, nice, during uh in 2005, Itried to play a game called all
flesh must be eaten, which is arole-playing zombie survival
game, and I played it a coupletimes with my friends, but they

(35:11):
just didn't really get the idea.
You know, it's like they, theywere into the role-playing games
, but they're like well, there'sonly one kind of monster in
this game.
So how, how far can we takethis?
and I'm like you're notunderstanding, you're missing
the core concept here yeah, so,like I had the challenge of not
only the limited supply of roleplaying nerds in my life but

(35:36):
also the zombie nerds in my life.
Wow, you've been a thwartednerd, I've been a thwarted nerd.
That's so sad.
I don't know about thwarted,maybe throttled, throttled, yeah
, yeah, like, like what.
What would happen if you wereyou know, you had the exposure
and completely let off the chain?
What would you?

(35:57):
Oh, that'd be an unstoppablenerd.
Nice, but yeah, it's.
Uh, you know, I, I, I used, Iused to play video games a lot.
I did it for a living for alittle while, but then that
became unviable.
So I became a truck driver and,like all the nerdiness kind of

(36:17):
like, got pushed to the back.
You know, like I, you know I'dgone years without playing a
video game at all, because it'sjust like I work now all the
time and I have no time foranything else and unfortunately
you married me, so you soactually I never had to ask
James for Dan to like payattention to me and not play a

(36:37):
game.

Speaker 2 (36:38):
He actually prioritized me with a little bit
of time that he had, um, whenyou were truck driving full-time
or when you are in thesummertime.
But um, it is kind of sad andit makes me really happy every
time he does play a game,because I know how much joy it
brings him yeah and also you getall your violent feelings out
yeah in a game become veryimportant lately yeah, how many

(36:59):
times have you played your owngame, james?

Speaker 1 (37:02):
oh so, uh, I actually don't track my plays and stuff.
I'm board game geek.
There's a lot of board gamenerds that do, and I don't
begrudge them at all and that'sawesome.
But uh, me, me and my wifetogether played like I I don't
even know, and I demo it at consand before it was even an

(37:22):
official game I would be demoingit.
You know conventions and stufflike that.
So the amount we've we playedis just stupid.
Um, I will say a little funstory about that is um, I do
have my first.
Well, that's my second becauseI did have a booth at board game
geek and now I'm going toorigins, which is kind of like
the second biggest gaming gamingconvention in the?

(37:44):
U besides Gen Con.
But so I have a booth and I'vebeen trying to prepare my wife.
I'm like, hey, there's no waymy voice is going to last four
days if I'm doing demos nonstop.
Wow.
So you're going to have to dosome demos.

Speaker 2 (37:58):
And I got a lot of pushback.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
Let me tell you she's like I just learned how to be a
gamer and blah, blah, blah.
But just last, last week, shebeat me three games not in a row
, with me trying going fullthrottle.
So I was like there's no way,you don't know this.
Yeah, and she's like, and I'mlike, no, you got it.
And then last night we're likethis coming up, expansion's

(38:23):
completely done.
So all I have to do is tell theprinter go like the second, I
hit my funding goal.
I'm telling them I'm notwaiting until the campaign's
over.
I want it to happen quick.
But I'm working on the nextexpansion and I started throwing
out things to her now anytime.
I said, hey, you want to helpme design a game.
She loses her damn mind, losesher damn in a good way or a

(38:44):
scary way no he's like I can'tdo this and blah blah.
I don't understand that, so Ireframed it.
I reframed it last night I'mworking better at selling myself
and just selling in general butI reframed it and I was just
like what do you think about?
You know this mechanic?
And we were, we were changingstuff up while we were playing
because there's new things goingto be introduced in that, and

(39:07):
she started giving like greatsuggestions and I've yet to tell
her I'm probably gonna waituntil she gets a little bit more
comfortable with it and I'll belike, just so you know, you
know these mechanic changes, areyou and you're literally
helping me design?
um, yeah, so you've.

(39:27):
You've played probably hundreds,thousands of different players.
Uh, yeah, I don't know aboutthousands, but definitely
definitely hundreds.
So, yeah, um, have you everbeen surprised by different, uh,
ways that people play, like youknow?
Are there like categories thatyou, you think of them, like the

(39:48):
strategists, the risk takers,the chaos demons?
Yeah, there's a lot of those,man, I will tell you, and some
of those don't mix.
One of my favorite experienceswas at Board Game Geek and I was
demoing for a bunch of friends,which is usually that is the
best group to play with, becauseyou know each other's

(40:08):
personalities.
Was at Board Game Geek and Iwas demoing for a bunch of
friends, which is usually thatis the best group to play with,
because you know each other'spersonalities, you know their
play styles and it's going tocome out in the game.
But there was one guy sittingat the table who was our math
guy.
This dude had the math of thegame down and the best
percentages and the best chancesfor everybody, he had it All
right.
But a lot of this game is andthe best percentages and the
best chances for everybody Wow,he had it All right.

(40:29):
But a lot of this game is aboutemotion, it's about revenge,
it's about feelings and it'sabout making an alliance with
somebody that you hope will helpyou out.
This guy was telling everybodyhey, give this person, pass this
person, the die.
It will help us all out.
And the dude's like nah, youattacked me, you get it.

(40:50):
I don't care if it doesn't teareverybody else down before your
turn.
You pissed me off.
So he's going, going, going andthen eventually comes to him
and then he doesn't follow hisown logic because his buddies
now have pushed him past thatpoint and they've made the
logical gamer now the emotionalgamer.
And I was just like this this iswhat I love about this game is

(41:14):
you?
You definitely attack people,you definitely make friends, but
then you, you laugh about it.
Yeah so, yeah, uh, I would sayI try to be an emotional or a
tactical kind of math guy when Iplay too, but I also do things
that I think will just be funand interesting, which to me is

(41:35):
kind of my favorite player.
Yeah, so, yeah, the math guynot so much, but the, the, the
tactical but still funexperience, you know, and we'll
lose just because it'll be funnyif this guy over here wins.
Who was doing the worst?
Lose all day to make a goodstory out of the game.
Yeah, I love a good story andthat's something that can happen

(41:58):
so often.
Like I love games as like atool for working out story ideas
in my mind.
So like, sometimes I'll justuse mechanics of games to just
like run through a scenario bymyself and I can definitely see
how this, this game, would workin that way.
Like, if you're thinking aboutthe like camp dynamics, uh,

(42:19):
working, you know.
Like you know the, the biggerpicture game um, yeah, hopefully
, hopefully a lot of people seethat and, um, don't let the math
guy win as much as he should.

Speaker 2 (42:31):
Yeah, I agree I don't want to let the math guy win,
because I'm not the math guy.

Speaker 1 (42:36):
That is not I'm gonna be able to play I'm the
calculator guy yeah, I think Ihave my own inner negan.

Speaker 2 (42:42):
That's how I play katan.
I'm kind of of ruthless, so Idon't yeah, it's like an
alternative.
There definitely is like andifferent version of me playing
a game and I'm curious if yousee that come out and other
people too that you know reallywell, like does your wife have
an alter ego that shows up whenshe plays?

Speaker 1 (43:00):
I'm just talking about that.
So, uh, at origins I gonna meetup with some friends, a bunch
of guys that uh also have agreat.
Well, they don't have a podcast.
They do a live show onwednesdays called whiskey
wednesday, which I'm gonna givea plug.
I don't know if you leave it in, it's up to you, of course but
um, whiskey wednesdays uh,they're a group called the board

(43:22):
game run down and they talkabout board games, they talk to
game designers stuff, stuff likethat on their show.
So I met these guys through thegame.
They're a great bunch of dudesand now we're just friends.
So I'm happy to see them atOrigins.
And last night I said to my wifeI said I am going to love for
Tim, mike and Bob to finallymeet Table Flipping Cat, because

(43:49):
if she gets attacked likehardcore, he loses it.
He loses it and just is likeshe shooting daggers at me
across the table, like if we'redoing a demo, I'm gonna attack
her so other people can see whatit's like.
You know what I mean?
I'm not gonna go after somebodythat's inexperienced, so I will

(44:09):
attack her.
And she just looks at me likeand I'm like baby, we're doing
this for learning purposes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I love how things like thistend to to form like really
strong friendships, because,like, you get together, you play
a game.
Sometimes you only have theopportunity to get together when

(44:32):
you go to these cons.
So I'm wondering right, isthere a way that you can, that
you could play this game onlinewith friends on the other side
of the country?
So I haven't.
There's and there's a.
What is it?
Tabletop simulator?
Yeah, which is.
What is it Tabletop Simulator?
Yeah, which is a great thing.
The old school one back in myday was called Vassal, which

(44:56):
also did the same thing, but itwasn't as cool and they didn't
label it just for tabletopgamers, so I think they kind of
fell off a little bit, but I doneed to get it up on Tabletop
Simulator.
Off a little bit, but I do needto get it up on Tabletop
Simulator.
For me, though, it's like Ijust want to keep creating more
content for the game and I'm notquite making enough that I can
pay somebody to put it up onTabletop Simulator.

Speaker 2 (45:19):
Well, folks, you heard it here we have a big
online community, lots of ZOMbesties.
If you want to have fun andplay this with us, you should
back this project.
Yeah, you should back theproject and uh and, uh, yeah,
soar past whatever your goal is,so that you might have the
chance to do this, because thatwould be amazing yeah, so we got
to pay a tabletop simulatornerd now yes, or maybe you are a

(45:40):
tabletop simulator nerd and youwant to help out yeah, maybe
right right you need to be agood one.

Speaker 1 (45:46):
It's not super complex, but I also don't want
to hand it over, because if you,if you get like a bad product
there, then other people aregoing to be like, well, this is
terrible.
And you're like, oh, you're not.
You know it's it's not quiteworking the way it should.
So that's also my other fear.
Like me, I'm a terribleperfectionist, so I'm like oh,
this, this, it's got to be justright, you know, yeah, so well,

(46:08):
it's your name on it, literally,and it's it's your baby it's
the thing that you created.

Speaker 2 (46:13):
It's definitely my undead baby, yeah we have one
too, aren't they sweet?

Speaker 1 (46:18):
do you see um?
Do you see things like tabletopsim as like a promotional, um,
promotional potential or likebecause like a lot of times
stuff is just like on the steamworkshop and you know it's it
kind of is.
Well, it's plagiarism a lot oftimes, um, and I'm wondering
like what?
How?
What's the balance there?
Plagiarism is like good press.

(46:39):
So there's uh, I belong to, uh,uh, it's basically a Facebook
group called Tabletop DesignWorkshop.
Yeah, so these guys are all it'speople that are just starting
to think about creating game allthe way up to you know, big
designers that have sold gamesto multiple game companies and

(47:02):
that's all they do is their job.
So on there there's a lot ofgreat advice and most of them
say you know, if you can get itup on tabletop simulator and you
get some good traction, you'regoing to get people to still buy
the physical copy either wayand it's not really gonna cost
you in revenue to people andjust be like well, I can get it

(47:23):
for like a buck or two or free.
You know, yeah, digitallythey're like you'll, you'll
still sell and it'll be worth itif you made a good product on
there.
So, yes, 100, it could be aselling tool.
It's just one I haven't tackledyet.
Or, you know, have the revenueto pay somebody to make it.

Speaker 2 (47:41):
So, yeah, yeah, that's always the challenge, so
I believe you're gonna get there, purely because I want to play
this with oliver, who iscurrently on the other side of
the country.
I'm like Oliver, just you know,do a really good pledge and I'm
really excited to play withsome friends who are local
actually, who also really lovezombie and horror stuff, and

(48:02):
unfortunately, because of oursuper slow mail, we didn't get
to do that before our chat withyou today, but it is on the
books for a couple of weeks fromnow.
Dan doesn't even know this.

Speaker 1 (48:12):
I don't know this.

Speaker 2 (48:12):
Yeah, we're playing it with two.
I guess I can say their names.
It's just their first names Amyand Asher.

Speaker 1 (48:18):
Oh, okay, even if you told me I probably forgot,
that's true.

Speaker 2 (48:23):
But because I'm going to be playing it very soon,
asking for a friend.
Do you have any tips for newplayers?

Speaker 1 (48:30):
Yes, I definitely have tips for new players.
One read the rules, but two,don't just sit there and do
nothing.
You can pass on your turn, butpassing is almost never the best
option.
I will also say to rememberthat every card, with the
exception of a hideout, can beplayed on any other person.

(48:50):
So a lot of people don't thinkbilaterally because there are
bad characters in the game.
So characters basically getplaced out in front of you and
they are exceptional people thatare within your camp that
usually give you a bonus, butthere's a few bad characters
that he usually usually give youa bonus, but there's a few bad
characters.
So there's the know-it-all,which is basically based on uh,

(49:11):
mr cooper, who's in the basement?
Uh, and not a living dead sookay, yeah, this guy comes up.
He knows the whole deal and itdoesn't really matter whether
he's right or wrong, becausehe's so confrontational that
this guy is a detriment.
You know what I mean.
So the idea is, again, any cardcan be played on anybody else.
So you would look at this cardand be like why would I put this

(49:32):
person in your camp?
And you're like, no, you don'tput them in your camp, you put
them in somebody else's camp.
The idea is, again,thematically, this dude shows up
at their door and they're like,oh, hey, it's a human, he's not
screwed up, let's let him in.
We need people to live.
Then he gets in there andyou're like, oh, this fucking
guy, that's so real too, yes,yes.

(49:53):
And again with the, with thebilateral cards, uh, there's a
card called voted out so, whichyou put you can play on a camp
doesn't have to be your camp andyou can vote somebody out of
that camp to a camp of yourchoice.
So you could use it to stealgood characters.
So somebody happens to havelike the survivalist or a doctor

(50:14):
, you can use it to steal thedoctor from them.
Or if you got stuck with the,the stupid know-it-all or the
hysterical cheerleader or, evenworse, the corporate CEO you can
, which I made that guy a longtime ago anyways you knew what's
up, yeah yes they haven'tchanged right right, you can

(50:37):
send him out to somebody else'scamp.

Speaker 2 (50:40):
So you gotta think bilateral for all the different
options that's a really goodthat is my one advice I will say
, as somebody who getsoverwhelmed by like deep and
detailed instructions, I mean Ican do it.
I used to play axis and allies,which is an annoyingly
complicated version of risk forthose who don't know we're
listening.
But anyways, I read your.
I read your instructions beforewe even got this, because you

(51:03):
had them online on a reallyexcellent website and I was like
I could play this game.
I didn't actually, a lot of thetime in the new games I'm
feeling like, oh no, I don'tknow what the is going on.
For the first, time right, andI'm sure in it right there's a,
I'm sure there's a learningcurve, but uh, right, a little
bit a great balance of likecomplexity and very immersive
real life situation that I thinkwe would find ourselves in in

(51:25):
the the zombie apocalypse.
But it doesn't feelintimidating to start and I
think that that is a reallyawesome balance that you managed
to find, thank you.

Speaker 1 (51:32):
Thank you.
That that's that's for me, thegames that I've created and the
ones created going forward.
I mean I'm going to try to getsome of the lighter and
heavyweight.

Speaker 2 (51:41):
But I do like that mid balance where it's.

Speaker 1 (51:44):
You know it can be a gateway game to again somebody
that just, you're a perfectexample, somebody that enjoys,
enjoy zombies in the zombiegenre.
But you know, it has casuallyplayed a few games and maybe a
few with a little more complexones.
But I like, I want those peopleto be like I can pick this up,
I can do this.
Or you could show your friendagain, somebody that likes

(52:04):
zombies but not really intogames.
You could show your friendagain somebody that likes
zombies but not really intogames.
You could be like I can tellyou, I can teach you these rules
in about five, 10 minutes andby the second round or the third
round you're going to be like Igot this and you no longer need
any.
You know hand holding andyou're full in, and then you're
laughing about wiping out theother camp.

Speaker 2 (52:31):
I other can't.
I wish this was the game Iplayed with my grandparents as a
kid.
Instead of hand and foot andcanasta, that would have been
such a great memory.
Yeah, and I'm actuallywondering.
I know that it says eight ornot 18 plus.
It says age 14 plus.
Uh, can I play this with myeight-year-old nephew?

Speaker 1 (52:38):
if he's an advanced nephew, right cut off so if you
got the oh, there's two pointsof this one.
Yes, younger players whobasically can grasp you know
mild mechanics or can at leastgrasp some mechanics 100, 100

(52:59):
can play this, whether or notthey get the uh, you know some
of the combos or see the matrixwithin it, and probably a little
later.
But I said that, yes, thereason why the age 14 plus is on
there and it's on a lot ofgames is because if you're going
to sell this to retailers oronline retailers or somebody
that makes dick rockets, ifyou're going to sell it on their

(53:21):
website, it has to berigorously tested and it costs
you like $2,000 if you have itdone in the US.
If you have your manufacturerdo it, it's a little bit less,
but it costs that much for anygame that's 14 and under.
That's considered for kids.
So you got to get thecomponents tested.
You know what's the age wheresomebody could swallow this

(53:42):
piece.
If you got 12-year-oldsswallowing dice, well, dear God,
god, I mean yeah, it's terrible.

Speaker 2 (53:49):
My eight-year-old would definitely nephew would
not swallow dice.

Speaker 1 (53:52):
So right, right yeah so yeah not a purpose anyway,
that's the reason why it's there.
The other reason was you knowit's, there's, there's
definitely some gore, but youknow, if it's static gore and if
, if they watch even you knowsome mild horror movies, there's
nothing in there that's notquite.

Speaker 2 (54:11):
You know that's, it's not pushing anything he's
watched stranger things and isobsessed with it.
I think he'll be fine right andright right yes, yeah, I don't.
I'm not a parent, so I have noability to judge what is
appropriate or inappropriate.
I just think my nephew's cool,so I have no ability to judge
what is appropriate orinappropriate.

Speaker 1 (54:28):
I just think my nephew's cool.
So yeah, I, you know I was.
I found that interesting, cause, like I had no idea that so
much went into just the the agethat you put on the box.
I just thought that you justprinted it on there based on,
like, who you think this is for.
But yeah, it's.
It makes sense that there'sjust a lot of testing, a lot of

(54:49):
liability behind it, Right, andif it's like just cards, you
still in theory have to get ittested.
But then the age limitdefinitely drops Mine.
I do have those small chips andthe dice that instantly had a
level.
So I was like you know what?
Boom, we're just saying 14.
Call it a day.
I will say.
I demoed at a game store here intexas not too long ago and

(55:11):
there was a father and a son andyou could tell the father was
into horror movies, you know.
And he was just like uh, sowhat's the age?
And I told him I was like butyou know if, if you guys are
into horror movies, there'snothing here your son can't
handle.
I think it was like 10 orsomething like that, and we sat
down, the kid won, everybody hada great time, we bought a copy,
so yeah, that's really fun.

Speaker 2 (55:33):
The kid won.
Yeah, I just yeah.

Speaker 1 (55:35):
Kids can be so creative about yeah, but yeah,
basically the father was goingfull out on me and my wife and
we had a store employee therehelping as well, um, and like
the kid was doing pretty good,but I was like, yeah, I'm gonna,
I'm gonna skew it in this kid'sfavor.

Speaker 2 (55:53):
So you know, and when he got done, he's like dad
kicked your ass, kind of thing,you know, and he was all excited
.
He's like we need to get one.
You are a negan.
Yeah, I'm seeing more parallels,yeah I mean, you don't sell
copies if you kick the livingshit out of them this is also
true, exactly, but you also givehim probably like a positive
lifelong memory, because one ofmy favorite childhood memories

(56:16):
was playing.
Have you ever played hand andfoot?
It's just a very long game forseniors who have a lot of time,
and it's extremely boringsometimes if there's more than
two players three playersanyways.
It was uh, my, my cousin Kellyand me and I was maybe like 10
and she was 12.
And we kicked their ass becauseyou can play as pairs against

(56:36):
each other.
Me and Kelly jumped out of ourchairs and did like a high five
fist bump situation, being likewe beat the old geezers.
It was a great moment and Istill remember it.
So that's what you did for thatkid yeah right, that's really
nice right tell us about theexpansion.

Speaker 1 (56:52):
Mortal reckoning so, um, it's, it's an expansion,
that's one.
Most simply, it uh ups the game, the player count for the game
from six to eight players, so itgives you more chips and more
starting hideouts.
It gives you more cards tobalance that out, but it also

(57:12):
includes a bunch of new hideouts, a bunch of new characters and
some cool new cards that havefun mechanics.
One which is probably going tobe the big draw, but also the
big controversy I know one ofyou I'm not saying which said
they might have a problem withthis, and that is the the loyal
dog.
That was me, yeah, the loyaldog character.

(57:35):
He came about because, uh, yougot the will smith uh movie
where he has the dog.
Uh, you know, daryl picks up ayeah, I am legend.
Uh, will smith picks up, orwill smith, uh, garyll picks up
his twisted girlfriend's dog.
Yeah, he just called dog.
I love dog, right and hey, iffall if I had a very well dog,

(57:59):
friend, right and if Iwas in apocalyptic situation and
had a fairly well-trained dog.
I mean, that is, that is a hugeplus.
Yeah, this, this thing is goingto protect everybody and just
be yes, so I had to include thedog.
But the dog mechanic is.
It is a character, but it hasto be played on another

(58:20):
character and the only way youcan get rid of that other
character is if the dog is wipedout first.
Now I know people have you knowyou'd be like, oh, I gotta kill
the dog, but wiped out first.
Now I know people are going tohave you know you'd be like, oh,
I got to kill the dog.
But that's the fun part.
If you know somebody's a doglover out across the table, you
put the dog on your bestcharacter.
Yeah, and now this person hasto be a jerk or feel bad about

(58:41):
wiping out the dog to get atyour doctor.

Speaker 2 (58:44):
That is so diabolical it's like a morality shield
that is really smart.
That is really smart, or theother one.

Speaker 1 (58:51):
Yeah, right, or the other bilateral way to play it
is somebody has played the CEOon you and now I play the doctor
on top of the CEO.
You got to spend two turnstrying to kill off the CEO to
get him out of your camp,because I played the dog to
protect this guy.

Speaker 2 (59:10):
So yeah, the dog's protecting the CEO Worst
nightmare.
Worst nightmare, Exactly.
I'm not okay with this, but Iam okay with it.
It'll make the game really fun.
Just we'll cover our dog's ears, Right right when it gets to
that point.

Speaker 1 (59:26):
There's also Nero just left the room Our dog and
there were some characters I hadleft from the core game that I
had to trim for size or trim tohave it make sense, but still
clicking on all the tropes.
So we got the priest, obviously.
We got the gang member Again adude, that's not positive.

(59:48):
And again he.
Actually you get less people inyour camp because he's there.
But when the brains hit the fan, all of a sudden, now this guy
who's a little brutal and edgy,is worth something.
You know.
There's also the coward, which alot of people don't see the
beauty in the coward, becausethe coward, uh, anytime your
hideout's destroyed, he goes tothe next hideout with the most

(01:00:11):
people, all right.
So when you're like well, whywould I recruit this guy?
Like okay, when he, when thecamp gets destroyed and he moves
on, it forces everyone at thetable to say exactly how many
people they have now.
You know how many people theyhave Now.
You know your math of where yousit in that.

(01:00:32):
So, yeah, I like throwing a lotof subtle strategies.

Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
I feel like we're getting a master class right now
.
This is really helpful.
How do you come up with all thecharacters?

Speaker 1 (01:00:42):
I mean I just you know, obviously there's so many
tropes and you know I have somany favorite characters that
they just I'm like, how do I fitthis in mechanically?
So I usually pair it withsomething I feel is missing, um,
a big part of the game.
I wanted to.
I wanted to be a randomselection of people, which is

(01:01:06):
also why I had the the backerart.
So you know, people paid to bea random selection of people,
which is also why I had thebacker art.
So you know people paid to beon a card.
Part of why I did that was Ididn't want all these people to
look like my generic idiotfriends.
You know what I mean?
The same four people over andover again.
Yeah, Right, right, which againthere are reoccurring people and
there are friends that arereoccurring.
I totally want that, but I alsowanted like it, who's left is

(01:01:30):
going to be completely random,you know.
And there's going to be thepeople that are prepared to the
end degree and one littlemistake or one thing they didn't
realize, or just sheer bad luck, this person is prepared,
they're out, you know.
And then there's going to be,like the guy in the office
building who's like on a toiletwhen everything gets wiped out,

(01:01:51):
you know and then all of asudden this guy just comes out
and everybody's like freakingdead and this person lives.
you know it's gonna be so random, so that's, that was part of
the beauty of doing that and um,I'm gonna continue to do that
and hopefully I just get a widearray of people that from
different walks they lookdifferent and have a different

(01:02:12):
approach.
I also have these people taketheir own pictures, which
sometimes can be terrible, andyou're like no, no we got to
redo this, you know.
I try to give them our directionvia email.
Yeah, they give you the the upthe nose shot.
Yes, no, or it's like all wipedout and gray.
They give you the up the noseshot yes, no, or it's like all
wiped out and gray and I waslike man, I want to make this
look like you, so I'm going toneed to see what you look like,

(01:02:36):
so help me out here.

Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
It's a really unique thing that you're doing, because
you're basically makingportraits of people, yeah, and
is there other ways to like buyprints or anything like that of
your art?

Speaker 1 (01:02:49):
and is there?
Are there ways to like, buyprints or anything like that of
your art?
Uh, so I used to have a websiteand I had prints on there and I
just don't because the thefocus has been so deep on this,
I will tell you anybody thatanybody that backed on that
level previously got a wholebunch of stuff that I didn't
announce and I just kind of liketrickled out.
So I gave everybody like, uh,magnets of their card, like that
were.
I think they were like four.
So I gave everybody likemagnets of their card Like there
were, I think there were likefour by six.

(01:03:10):
So a big blow up of their card.
That's awesome.
In the next campaign I'm goingto give, I am going to give them
prints of their portraits.
So I think I had them set at 11by 17.
So, yes, they will get that forsure.
Uh, there were other perks,like some people are returning,

(01:03:30):
even in this, in this campaign.
So, um, I had a friend whobacked and he his card was like
his whole family, wow, and itwas, uh, I think it was, please,
let us in.
So they showed up.
Uh, the best part was hisbrother-in-law shows up and the
dude's carrying records, likeeverybody's decked out for war
and he's carrying records andI'm like why?

(01:03:52):
And then I was like, oh, seanof the dead, right.
Yes, I'm like this is so stupid.
I love it, I love it, but thatbuddy, that did that.
I took some proof shots becauseactually they were close enough.
I got to take the photos.
I took some proof shots, one ofwhich was just him standing

(01:04:13):
with a gun.
And bam Now, I didn't even youknow all of a sudden we were
playing the demo and he was likehow am I on a second card?
And I was like dude, you're in,so you're already out.
You're in my wife's, in mybrother-in-law.
He, uh, he's gonna be in thethird one.
He doesn't know yet he'splanned in.

(01:04:33):
I will tell you, the loyal dogis, um, my brother and
sister-in-law's dog that hadjust passed, not too long ago,
and I wanted to, you know, Iwanted to include them, them in
this expansion.
And then I was like I need adog, I need a dog.
And uh, my sister-in-law criedwhen I sent her the, the pick
and stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:04:52):
So that's really sweet and also, weirdly, makes
me feel better if I have to killthe dog because the dog has
already passed away, you know alittle bit of background.
I think that's more brutal thisis my deep, inner, dark self, I
guess, thinking um okay arethere.
You said that you love classictv shows and I'm curious if any

(01:05:16):
of the characters and mechanicsof the game are inspired by some
of the shows that you love wow,that's a seriously good
question.

Speaker 1 (01:05:23):
I would say, not directly, but man, there's.
There's probably no way Like,if I looked at it now that
you've said that, with, like youknow, a Freudian kind of sit
down and grill over it, I betyou, I bet you I would find
something in there.
But consciously I would say no,subconsciously I would
definitely say I'd get back toyou.

Speaker 2 (01:05:45):
I want to hear the answer.
Yeah.
If something comes to you inthe middle, hear the answer yeah
.
If something comes to you inthe middle of the night, please
dm us and instagram.
Let us know yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05:52):
While on the topic of classic tv shows, uh, which,
which tv shows would you like tosee?
Just like zombies injected intoand turned into a zombie show.
Oh, man, man, I, I mean, Iinstantly go to my favorites.
I just want to come up with areason why, like sanford and son
would be great.

(01:06:13):
Oh, yeah, like, maybe these twoguys are held up in this
junkyard and they've used thejunk to make barriers.
Yeah, red comes on, he's, he'slike.
He's like I gotta, I'm gonnacut these bathtubs in half.
I got all these bathtubs, he'sgot some scheme.
And there's like I'm going tocut these bathtubs in half.
I got all these bathtubs, he'sgot some scheme.
And there's so many shows toothat I think it would just
really fit.

(01:06:33):
I mean Bonanza.
It's not that different fromthe Walking Dead.
They're out on the trail, outin the woods, dangerous come up,
problems come up.
It's kind of like the WalkingDead, and I think Bonanza with
zombies would be really great.

Speaker 2 (01:06:50):
I've never seen it.
I missed a lot of classic TVbecause I didn't really have TV
as a kid.
I have one more question foryou about the game.
Dan might have more, but thisis the one that I'm dying to ask
, Having played it so much andcreated it and obviously being a
major zombie fan yourself doyou think that there are any

(01:07:16):
like survival skills that peoplecan learn by playing this game?

Speaker 1 (01:07:17):
I, yeah, but I don't think it's the skill they're
gonna want to learn.
It's kind of the Negan factor.
It's kind of the uh, it isgoing to be us versus other
people for me and that.
That that's 100 percent how Isee it, not that I don't want
that.

Speaker 2 (01:07:31):
No yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:07:33):
We should come together as humanity and small
groups will come together, butthey're going to come together
on like minded concepts andthose like minded concepts are
not going to mesh with their.
You know the other people thatare computing.
You're competing for leftoverresources, so it's.
It might tell you you'recomfortable, your, your

(01:07:54):
comfortability level, if that'seven a word, your level of
comfort with what doing, whatneeds to be done and a lot of
that.
You know that was explored inthe walking dead where, yeah,
you know, they came to a pointwhere they're like man, can we
keep doing this One?
I think the season might havebeen a little too long because,
you know, rick went to the edgeLike I don't know how many times

(01:08:15):
.
This guy, looked at me, hejumped over five, six times, but
you know, the first two wereincredible journeys.
Same thing with Negan, wherethis guy, guy, you know, they
finally give you his backstoryand you're like, this guy was
not bad, okay, he was a littlebit of a screw-up, he was
trouble, he was morally grayyeah.
Yeah, but he wasn't terrible atfirst and then he got to this

(01:08:38):
situation and you know, some badthings happened to him and now
you see what kind of made thatcharacter, that character, and
then he has his, his, his kindof redemption moment.
Not that nobody will let himforget it, nor should they, but
that redemption moment you'relike OK, this is, this is
character growth and it's great.

Speaker 2 (01:08:59):
So I think, I think the game will maybe show at
least your comfort level ofdoing what needs to be done to
get the job done and protectyour people I think that's
actually really valuable because, for example, like you just
saying to me, like well, youmight have to kill the loyal dog
because the dog is loyal to aceo, and I'm like, oh no, I
think I'm might have to kill theloyal dog because the dog is

(01:09:19):
loyal to a ceo, and I'm like, ohno, I think I'm gonna have to
kill the dog.
Right, that's, um, maybe goodpractice for reality, although I
do also really want to believethat most of us will come
together and that cooperation iswhat will win.
But there will be people whodon't see the world that way,
like that's not a thing.
There are people right now whodon't see the world that way.
Um, they're not going to justall disappear.

(01:09:40):
Yeah, when the apocalypsehappens, unless they're raptured
they all go to heaven for somestrange reason is there.

Speaker 1 (01:09:49):
Is there a way to win this game cooperatively?
Um, so, not really it it's.
I call it co-op.
Until it's not.
You know, you're, you're.
You are definitely going tocooperate with people,
especially in larger games.
You know, with only two people,it's, it's one, you know one V

(01:10:10):
one.
So it's either me or you.
However, when you get intobigger games, there there has to
be a level of cooperation andit generally comes down to the
point where, like, well, thisdoesn't benefit me anymore.
Now in the expansion there isalternate rules for basically,
you know, either controlling twocamps, but you could easily
change those, as you know.

(01:10:31):
Okay, me, it's me, and yougonna be versus these two and
these two.
So it does work both that ways,but generally most of it is,
you know is the us or them, kindof thing.

Speaker 2 (01:10:44):
I guess I'll find out yeah, dan and I are probably
going to play it together first,because you're going to have
two to six players.
With the original game, withthe expansion, how many folks
can you have up to?

Speaker 1 (01:10:53):
eight that's awesome and it's 30 to 90 minutes this
one says so that same for theexpansion uh, generally, yes.
Um, now, when you gauge, this isa little gamer thing, um, a
game designer thing.
When you gauge the time, you'resupposed to gauge it on the
time, once people actually knowthe game.
So you know, I will tell youwith teach, and then you got you

(01:11:17):
.
You know, you got your buddywith analysis, paralysis, we
only got two actions.
It's like do the thing or don'tdo the thing, and everybody at
the table is watching them blinkand you're just like.

Speaker 2 (01:11:27):
I'm putting a timer out at that point.
I will make that rule.

Speaker 1 (01:11:32):
You need the move timer like in chess, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:11:35):
I can't stand people who just like ponder for five
minutes.
I'm like absolutely not.
No right.
In fact, that will make me callthem faster in the game there
you go, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:11:46):
So yeah, it's with a bigger group.
It's definitely a little longer, but it's not much more,
because one you're all sharingthe, the mutual resource of the
survivors in the center in a bigplay, bigger player game.
There's a few more there, butit's not much more.
So, um, the beginning basicallytakes just as long or a little

(01:12:06):
longer, but the tail end of thegame, basically when things
start going really sideways,then that speeds up even quicker
with more people because itgets more brutal fast and every
person there has less people percamp than they did in a smaller
game.
So taking them out in the endgame is quicker.

Speaker 2 (01:12:27):
This is very Negan.
People are a resource.

Speaker 1 (01:12:31):
Yeah.
Oh yes, yep, it 100% is, whichis it's a shame.
There's already been like threeWalking Dead games, two of
which are basically unplayable.
There's been three.
I've got the Walking DeadUniverse rule books and
everything.
I didn't know about the otherones, though.
Oh yeah, there's two boardgames.

(01:12:53):
One came out early and it cameout and it disappeared because
it was a steaming pothole of notgoodness.
So then there's one that cameout later and it was like OK,
but it I it just didn't quitecapture the flavor, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:13:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:13:12):
I get that.

Speaker 2 (01:13:13):
Yeah, this feels like if you, if you find Negan
fascinating, you should playthis game, and I do.
And if you want vengeance onNegans of the world, I
fascinating you should play thisgame and I do and if you want
vengeance on Negans of the world, I think you should also play
this game.
It sounds like an opportunityfor both.
So, on that note, you have aKickstarter coming out for the
expansion pack, which you canalso get the original game as a
part of that.
When is that coming out andwhere can people find you?

Speaker 1 (01:13:35):
It is coming out on 2-25-25.
So again we find you.
It is coming out on 2 25 25.
So again, we're recording thisin the past, but in the future.
Yeah, so that's that's atuesday.
Tuesday, february 25th.
It is coming out on kickstarterand, like you said, yes, you
can get all the uh, the previousthe core game and the previous

(01:13:56):
expansion that were part of thefirst kickstarter, as well as an
exclusive throne card.
Those will be available for newbackers to just basically, you
buy in, you can buy the bundleand you're already completely up
to speed.
All right, um, uh, as far aswhere you can find me, oh man, I
gotta double check my url.
I think it's uh, zombiesurvival.
Well, I think it's a zombiesurvival infection game.

(01:14:19):
Wow, I'm terrible, I have it.
It'll be in the description.

Speaker 2 (01:14:23):
It is.
It's a, yeah, it's zombiesurvival infectioncom.

Speaker 1 (01:14:28):
There you go.

Speaker 2 (01:14:29):
And your Instagram.
I'm going to promo you, andyour Instagram is James
underscore S underscore, coleunderscore illustration Correct,
yep.
And we'll have all theKickstarter links in the show
notes as well.
Is there a way to pre-sign upfor the like, the pre-launch?

Speaker 1 (01:14:45):
If you click, if you go to Kickstarter and you have a
Kickstarter account, you canclick on the little notify me
when launch and that'll let youknow.
If you go to zombie survivalinfection gamecom or zombie
survival infectioncom,thankurvivalinfectioncom, thank
you.
If you go there, there's also away to sign up for the email
and I promise I'll spam the hellout of you.

(01:15:06):
Not really, I send about.
I still have the free accountof MailChimp so I can only send
out.
I have just shy of the payaccount amount of subscribers.
So, yeah, I send out an emaillike once a month and usually
it's like okay, we're ready,it's going to be this date and
now next email will be likewe're going, you know, so go

(01:15:29):
over.
And the reason why you want toget in early is there are some
limited add-ons, one of severalof which I think there's only
three chances to get in on thenew expansion that's coming
after this.
And again, that's you on a card.
There's going to be originalart.
So my, my main zombie dude.
That was the inspiration forthe cover I have, uh, the

(01:15:52):
acrylic painting of him.
Wow, is there?
Yeah, I have my favorite, oneof my favorite zombies, which is
pushing up out of the grave.
So I got a guy coming up out ofthe grave, also an original
acrylic painting that's going tobe up there.
I've made skate decks that havethe artworks etched in and then

(01:16:13):
I've painted on top of that andthey have custom grip tape.
I have a couple of those upthere as well.
So there's there's a bunch offun, like obviously really
limited um add-ons, so it's ait's a reason to get there early
.
There will also be an early bird, which is uh, you know you're
going to get the game at adiscount and you'll get an

(01:16:33):
exclusive sticker, and that thatexclusive sticker is of Mama
Skinwalker.
The next expansion will be theleaders, and my favorite leader
is Mama Skinwalker.
All day, given the chance toplay, I will play with them.

Speaker 2 (01:16:52):
Tell us about Mama Skinwalker, I'll tell you about
the expansion after next.

Speaker 1 (01:16:58):
Again, this one's got new mechanics, new characters.
Brings the player count up,that's mortal reckoning.
The one after that that'salready planned is, but still in
production is called powerstruggle.
So every camp chooses theirleader.
The leaders can be based on aplayer style slash.
You know still the tropes?

(01:17:18):
Um, we have, we have theskinwalkers, so you got mama
skinwalker.
We have the Skinwalkers, so yougot Mama Skinwalker.
Then we have the Brutal Leader,obviously, which is Negan style
.
We do have the politician, sokind of Dennis Hopper's
character in Land of the Dead.
Okay, yeah, he's him.
We have the Reluctant, whichare people that got thrown into

(01:17:38):
this situation and now they gotto deal with it, which is pretty
much Rick and crew.
We got the scavengers, whichwould be, you know, people that
live just by scavenging and theykind of, you know, they're good
at finding things.
We have the hidden, which arepeople that are good at hiding
and you didn't even know theyreally existed in the city until

(01:18:00):
, like later on in the situation.
Oh, yeah, um, and they, they'regood at also finding people
that are hidden.
Uh, you have the military,which, um, kind of based on the
our bad guys at the end of uh,28 days later.

Speaker 2 (01:18:16):
Right, yeah, so yeah I don't like those ones.
No, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:18:21):
So they are brutal.
They are also brutal and shitty, but they're going to do well
to survive because they got alot of guns and they can do
stuff.
We also have the pacifists,which are people that are
completely nice and it's goingto be for somebody that doesn't
have an aggressive play style,for sure which are people that
are completely nice and they,you know, it's going to be for
somebody that doesn't have anaggressive play style, for sure.

(01:18:43):
And then the last, oh and thelast, my second favorite, the
cannibals.
Oh, no, yeah, again, andeverybody has their own little
quirk or awesomeness.
The cannibals if you get stuckwith a bad character, you just
eat it as your turn.
Yeah, so, and they have specialcards that if they can eat

(01:19:07):
somebody, then they get to dosomething, because each leader
is going to come with two Idon't know or possibly three
cards, we'll see but basicallyyou're going to choose the card
you want and put the others back, so people even that know all
the cards are not going to knowwhich one you have.

Speaker 2 (01:19:21):
You know, kind of thing, yeah I was just gonna say
this game does test yourpsychological limits, because I
think you just hit one.
I'm like I don't want to.
I don't think I want to eveneat card people or fake.

Speaker 1 (01:19:31):
I want to eat all the people yeah, you can be I will
tell you, you know, basicallyour three evil factions are the
skinwalkers, the brutal and thecannibals, and all of them,
basically all the more brutalcamps do better in the end game

(01:19:52):
than the other people do and,like our pacifists, get the most
people because they have toweather the storm.
They're not good at fighting,they're not going to do well
against a more aggressive youknow team, but they get more
people to help them bump upwhere, like, the skinwalkers get
zipped for people they don't.
They can't even have a hideout,so they get way less.

(01:20:15):
And then, but when the end timecome, they can direct the
zombies towards other people andthey take way less.
But when the end time comes,they can direct the zombies
towards other people and theytake way less hits than
everybody else.

Speaker 2 (01:20:23):
So it's all about style.

Speaker 1 (01:20:26):
Again.
It's all about hitting thetropes that are in the movies or
in the stories, things likethat I am also toying with.
I probably need to addMarauders, because that's going
to be a thing especially, youknow, uh, you know, original
dawn of the dead.
The marauders come and theyjust wreck them all for like no
damn good reason other than towreck them all.

(01:20:47):
So you know tom savini's littlecameo right there, oh yeah, in
that movie.
So you know, um, that, that isthat one oh, and that one oh.

Speaker 2 (01:20:59):
I don't want to give away too much well now I'm
curious, but I will respect yourboundary.

Speaker 1 (01:21:07):
I'm really amped for this because it has so many
elements that I absolutely love.
One thing I'd also like to addis, like, a good reason for
people listening to back thisearly is because it helps you
and the first 24 hours if youreach that goal, that's good.
That's good for you.

(01:21:27):
Yeah, it helps me out with thewhole Kickstarter matrix.
I will say I was, I've alreadybeen, chosen as a project we
love, so I'm going to get a niceboost from that, which is great
.
Yeah, and you know they sawthat I, I got the previous one,
um, and you know, I, I guessthey, they had faith in me,
which is great.
That's awesome.
Um, you know, and I got itagain for this project, so

(01:21:50):
that's exciting.
Gets me, you know, just someextra people, a little extra
Buzz about the project.
So I'm happy about that.
I will say, since we threw outall that man and I've been doing
too much talk.
I'm going to ask you guys a lotof questions in one minute.
The core game in the firstcampaign also came with an

(01:22:11):
expansion called UndeadReckoning, and that one,
especially for our zombie nerdshere, allows you to choose the
type of zombies you're going tofight.
So the core game which Isuggest you play first is you're
just fighting the zombies.
You know air quotes, but withthat it allows you to choose the
type of zombies, which affectsthe gameplay a little bit.

(01:22:32):
Like things are set updifferent based on the type of
zombies you're fighting and onceyou know them it'll help you.
You know, play a different game.
So there are six types.
Just a quick example like thereturn dead, that is, our guys
with our maggot filled, slowlyshambling dudes.
So this game, you know you'reall your players are cool with a

(01:22:55):
long, protracted game becausethey're they're not coming fast
and hard, they're not justwrecking shop.
If you want to play a quickgame, then you just play the
runners, where the game's goingto be faster.
You start out with more peoplebut the game gets aggressive
faster.
And then a very thematic one isthe Sparrow fights man.

(01:23:15):
That's such a tough word.

Speaker 2 (01:23:17):
So those are our fungus dudes.

Speaker 1 (01:23:21):
Okay, yeah, I will tell you the fungus guys, if you
don't solve the game quickly,they'll solve it for you.
So because each of these alsogives you, somebody gets knocked
out, becomes those types ofzombies.
So the fungus zombies can bethe most brutal the longer the
game takes.
Basically, the fungus mask getsbigger and bigger and bigger in

(01:23:43):
your city, so you better get itdone before they get it done,
kind of thing.
We also got ghouls, walkers,bioengineered, which you know.
That actually plays out alittle scenario.
So all of those give you a funlittle flavor to your game.
You know, once you, once you'vegot the core rules down, then I
say introduce the differenttypes of zombies.

Speaker 2 (01:24:04):
Yeah, I'm looking forward to the fungal ones.
I'm kind of okay if fungalzombies take over the world.

Speaker 1 (01:24:10):
That's where I'm at, that's probably our best chance
of zombies happening is going tobe those guys, yeah, or the
bioengineering.

Speaker 2 (01:24:23):
Yeah, it's dark out there in the world right now, so
you know it's bad, but I'm like, I guess, fungal zombies okay,
yeah, okay, just come and get meyou are basically aliens, fun
guys.
So just you know I'm gonna besad, I don't live in buffalo
anymore when the fungus zombiesshow up.

Speaker 1 (01:24:37):
So yeah, yeah, it's gonna be a hard drive going
somewhere where there's a lotless fungus, or maybe just move
to canada well, I like timhortons.
So let's, go ah, yes, key to myheart, tim hortons you don't
have much humidity though, sothat also helps a little bit
with the, with the fungus well,this has been.

(01:24:58):
This has been, uh, incredibletalking to you.
I I've been, I've, I'm reallyamped for this game now and uh,
and I think it has a lot, a lotof potential and feeds all of my
imagination centers, which isexactly what I'm looking for in
all kinds of things yeah, just Imean honestly they.

Speaker 2 (01:25:18):
It could be a good prompt all by yourself to just
pick up the cards and read them.
There's a lot there to feedfrom.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:25:26):
We did a little bit of that.

Speaker 2 (01:25:29):
Let's just pretend I'm smart enough that.

Speaker 1 (01:25:30):
I wasn't.
That's a good pun.

Speaker 2 (01:25:34):
But thanks for joining us, james.
I hope we get to talk to youagain soon.
Can't wait for the Kickstarterto come out February 25th 2025.

Speaker 1 (01:25:42):
Yep, go get it.

Speaker 2 (01:25:43):
June 25th 2025.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:25:45):
Well, thanks for joining us.
Sure, this has been anincredible time and I'm really
glad that we had a chance totalk to you about this game and
zombie movies.
Hey, thanks for having me onand putting up with my ramblings
.
I know it's going to be a lotof editing and I will tell you I
cut back.
Oh God, I ramble.
No, the rambling is good.

(01:26:08):
It's what makes this podcasthappen, to be honest.

Speaker 2 (01:26:12):
Yes, and it's the passion behind this project that
you've worked for years on, soit makes sense to me.
You've got a lot to say aboutit, and that's what we're here
is to listen to you, james.
So thank you so much for beinghere with us.

Speaker 1 (01:26:22):
No, no, thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 (01:26:24):
Everybody go check out the Kickstarter Two 25, 25.

Speaker 1 (01:26:27):
Great date choice by the way, pledge early, pledge
often.

Speaker 2 (01:26:31):
I'm really I'm looking forward to the.
Gotta say I cannot wait to seethe originals.
So thanks everybody for joiningthe zombie book club.

Speaker 1 (01:26:38):
Yeah, um, make sure you leave a rating or a review.
Reviews are great, ratings aregood too.
Uh, and you can send us avoicemail.
If you want to, um 614-699-006,you can send us a voicemail.
Tell us.

Speaker 2 (01:26:53):
Tell us what move, what zombie movie you like yeah,
tell us whether you would wantto be Negan or beat Negan in the
zombie survival infection game.

Speaker 1 (01:27:03):
Yeah, who would you use the dog as a shield for to
win in this game?

Speaker 2 (01:27:12):
You can also follow us on Instagram at zombie book
club podcast or join the brainmunchers collective that's on
discord.
All links are in thedescription.
Also, make sure to go into theshow notes and find James Cole
also an Instagram.
Go to the website, check outall of the cool stuff that's
there and, last but not least,don't forget that Kickstarter
can't wait to see the expansionand play this game.

(01:27:33):
Thank you so much for your timewith us yeah, thanks.

Speaker 1 (01:27:35):
Thanks for listening.
The end is nigh baby, bye,don't die.

All Episodes

"Zombie: Survival Infection" with special guest James S. Cole | Zombie Book Club Ep 84

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Crime Junkie

24/7 News: The Latest

Stuff You Should Know

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}"Zombie: Survival Infection" with special guest James S. Cole | Zombie Book Club Ep 84