April 9, 2025 • 64 mins
Are you unknowingly carrying emotional pain that isn’t yours? In this powerful episode on ancestral healing, systemic family constellations, and the mother wound, we explore how inherited trauma silently shapes our lives, relationships, and even our sense of self. Through a deeply personal and transformative conversation, Vika De Tyan shares her journey from addiction and depression to wholeness, revealing how systemic healing helped her reconnect with her lineage and uncover the truths buried in silence. Specializing in ancestral trauma and systemic family constellations, Vika offers a rare blend of ancient wisdom and modern therapeutic insight that guides people toward lasting healing. If this conversation resonates with you, drop a comment, subscribe to the channel, and join us in reclaiming what has been lost through generations.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Zulu One Podcast.
Today we're joined by VikaDittan, an ancestral healing
practitioner who helps othersovercome inherited trauma
through systemic familyconstellations.
Her journey from communistRussia to studying with
spiritual masters worldwideinspires her work, blending
ancient wisdom with modernhealing techniques.
Enjoy this episode, Bika thankyou for being here.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Thank you for inviting Honored to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
I'm very, very happy to you know the fact that we
connected and to hear about thesystemic work that you're doing
and I always love starting withthat.
And you know, for for thelisteners, we started with a
guided meditation.
That's very, very systemic and,um, it always gets me different
, different aspects of it getsme, you know, I have a couple
(01:01):
versions of that and what theone that was coming up for me on
this one was the excluded ones,very heavily on the excluded
ones.
I don't know what came up foryou on that meditation.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
When I just started working with my family system, I
discovered that my name is thesame name of the son of my
great-grandfather, who came backfrom war and was missing for
seven years, and mygrand-grandma as it was seven
(01:43):
years, right Time passed, so shestarted living with another man
and he became the father of herchildren and when her first
husband came back, there was aconflict and they decided in
whatever way, I don't know thestory that he will leave and he
did story that he will live, andhe did and he started a new
(02:12):
family and his son was namedVictor.
My full name is Victoria and Inever heard of him.
I never heard of that part ofthe family, but he is my blood
relative.
I am the.
My grandfather is his son and Irealized that that part of the
story was was never mentionedand that was a huge realization
(02:34):
for me and I started digging andasking more and there was a lot
hidden under that dynamic.
So thank you for thismeditation.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Thank you, thank you for that.
That was beautiful and what aninteresting story is that you
know the secondary and tertiaryeffects that happen with war,
right, that there's thesesystems and we're all complex
systems and you know what aheartbreaking story you know,
but also beautiful in some way,that life does go on.
(03:04):
And what a gift that he didcome back into the system in his
own way and then started hisown family again.
And you know what a what a richand and heartbreaking but also
beautiful story, right that Iwould imagine that that was a
very slow, difficult process togo through.
What was that like?
Speaker 2 (03:26):
slow, difficult process to go through.
What was that like?
Yeah, it was interesting and Ialso met some resistance from my
family when I started askingquestions.
It was a lot of why do you needto know?
This has been a long time, itdoesn't matter, but it did
matter for me and I knew that onsome level that it did matter
for me and it did matter for mybody, for my life story, because
(03:49):
the reason I started workingwith it was a deep, deep
depression that I couldn't getrid of and I couldn't explain
and I didn't know, and just thiswork was so profound for me.
Then, from the first session, Irealized that I am carrying it
in one way or another and I'mfeeling it and life kind of
(04:11):
started making sense a littlemore.
It empowered me to go into adeeper journey and discover and
search for the answers not faraway, in some far away wisdom
that was a little foreign to me,but within my family, within
myself.
That gave me a lot of freedom.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
So how were you initially exposed to this work?
How did it?
How did that journey happen?
Were you kind of from that,that depression, or the battle
with that battle with depression?
How did you?
How did you get to, to whereyou are now?
Speaker 2 (04:47):
so I work with energy in a different way and a
feminine way, in the divine,feminine archetypes, for many
years.
And once the events happen anddepression happened and it came
with addictions and my way ofdealing with it was through
substances, a friend who triedto get me out of it invited me
(05:10):
to Thailand to go on a yogaretreat and I've been already
living the life of a digitalnomad for years, ever since I
had the chance.
And during that retreat therewere multiple practitioners
invited so we could do the fullcleansing mental body cleansing,
(05:30):
mind cleansing and one of thepractitioners was trained in
multiple modalities, in EMDR andhypnosis, in NLP and family
constellations as well.
So I did a session with him, umfor two hours and that really
shocked my world.
That really changed everythingfor me.
(05:51):
He had Italian ancestry, I haveRussian ancestry and the
question of war came up veryquickly and the consequences of
war that were in the body andthe conflict they came with it
through multiple branches of myfamily system and I remember
(06:12):
that he used pillows torepresent um.
That was very unfamiliar to me.
I knew nothing about umsystemic isolation at that point
and when I came out of thatroom I felt quiet that I think I
haven't felt since maybe very,very early childhood and that
(06:34):
started a search for me to whatelse is on there and I started
asking questions of who isteaching that, how is that
available?
And he directed me of who isteaching that, how is that
available?
And he directed me, of course,to the Hellinger School, to the
origins, and my life turnedaround very much and I came to
(06:55):
visit my family and startedthose conversations what was
there?
And started looking more withinand I started using my
meditations to go through theancestry and even going through
yoga, right, the process ofkundalini rising, and they
(07:16):
always told us about grounding.
Grounding you have to ground,as this is two-way movement the
higher you go, the deeper yourroots need to be.
And that specific work and Idealt with like my number one
request was addictions.
I want to work with it and Iwant to walk through that.
(07:39):
I'm at the level when almostlife-threatening this is not
going to end well and it helped.
It really did.
It took months to contemplate,to take in and I started working
with constellations almostevery week and I went into the
program and I found my teacher,the teacher I really enjoyed and
(08:04):
resonated with and I did atwo-years program every week.
Every week we did that andthrough that process, layer by
layer, right.
And then the second I remember Irealized the inner critic
changed that voice inside right.
And the first time it probablytook surprisingly fast, right,
(08:26):
because we hear about peoplegoing to therapy a long time,
but it lasted two years later.
I remember talking to thecamera, like recording myself on
the camera, and then hearingthat doubt.
It's like oh, is it good enough?
Do I look good enough?
I'm not sure.
And then for the first time Iheard the inner critic go what
are you talking about?
(08:46):
You look great.
You never look better.
And that was such a littlething, right.
It was such a huge shift tohave that conversation instead
of normal, you know, not so kindvoice that I used to for 20, 30
years already.
That made a difference for me.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
That's so interesting that you say that Did that
because I've been seeing a lotof inner child work recently.
Did that come after theconnection with the inner child?
I'm curious to know about that.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
No, inner child work came first.
Okay, that was probably thefoundation for me.
Inner child work came first.
Okay, that was probably thefoundation for me.
Yeah, that that's establishingthat connection with the inner
child was profound in a similarway because it wasn't known to
me before, but once it was there, I think for me it went into,
(09:40):
yeah, in a child, then in acritic yeah, once you reconcile,
like all the pieces of you, youstart getting an alignment and
it's like oh yeah, like this isthat inner, inner conflict that
we have that, you know, wants tokeep separate rather than than
connecting it's.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
It's such a such an interesting thing.
Man, I know that you, um, youfocus heavily on the mother
wound and I'm interested to seewhere that came from.
How did you kind of stumblealong this focus?
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Yeah, Well, I have a really interesting childhood.
On one hand, I think a lot ofpeople think it was great.
It was great right.
And at the same time, I am achild of divorced parents and
when that conflict happenedbetween my parents, the way I
received it, it was through mybody and I had what later was
(10:37):
already diagnosed as psoriasis.
It was like a really heavy rush, untreatable rush on the body,
and that was one of the things Itried healing and I didn't
realize it's what it was until ashaman told me that's what it
is.
Like you, you just, this is theway you expressing the conflict
between parents, and that madesense to me and that was I was
(11:01):
still about 13, 14 at that ageand that was.
I was still about 13, 14 atthat age and when I had a chance
to run away, I did.
I left the country and that'swhat I was running from and I
knew there's a conflict.
I think, like Mania was now,because every time there was
communication, it wasinteraction with my biological
(11:23):
mother, human mother, right.
There was constantly that break, this anger, this burst, this
that was well, I don't know ifit's right to say that, but at
some level that was almost thereason I would drink more, the
reason I would take moresubstances in right, it was so
difficult to get over it.
(11:45):
It was so and that inner criticsounded like my mom.
Definitely.
I heard my mom's voice in thatand it was through 30s.
It was a long time.
No matter what achievement,what was happening in my career,
what job, what relationship Ihad, it was constantly that
voice.
So I knew there's that part andas I was going deeper into
(12:09):
systemic constellations Irealized there is a, there's a
the wound, the wound.
Conflict is wrong, the wound,with the father as well.
And I learned that one isalways connected to another
right.
But once I started focusinglike okay, this is the
foundation, right, this is thenumber one thing.
(12:29):
You cannot skip that.
I just cannot.
And like many, I think, in mygeneration, started looking for
spirituality.
I was raised in Christianity,not so strong, because it wasn't
, it was USSR.
Our religion was politics.
We didn't have that right.
But technically Christianity.
(12:50):
I was baptized and I knew whatchurch is.
I knew the teachings of theBible.
I just wasn't forced topractice them actively.
But I went into spirituality andkind of blazed another way.
There is deeper way and that'sthe same way of Kundalini rising
, but refusing the parents.
And I realized that a lot ofpeople around me I lived in
(13:15):
spiritual communities.
I traveled to Mexico, I livedin Hawaii, I lived in Bali and
everybody was in almost everysecond person that I came across
with my parents don'tunderstand me.
I don't have my ownrelationship with my mother.
I don't talk about spiritualswith my parents, and when I came
across systemic constellation,I realized that we're trying to
(13:37):
bypass with it and it became socommon and so normalized in
spiritual communities.
It's like, yeah, not the parents, and I wanted to bring it back.
I didn't want to skip, I didn'twant to bypass, I wanted the
ground, I wanted my roots to godeep.
I didn't want to say no, nomatter what happened in my
(13:57):
country, what's happening rightnow, I didn't want to say I'm
running away from it.
I wanted to go back and I did.
I went back to my parents, Iwent back to my country and I'm
constantly rotating.
I'm living that migrationalpath of living between different
countries, but I will never saythat I don't want to have
anything to do with this.
(14:17):
This is no longer my future.
It is my future.
It's my past and it's my futureand it's part of my story, and
I feel much more empowered byspeaking the full truth of
myself.
This is my background.
This is where I came from.
I am very connected.
I will never refuse that.
(14:38):
That's my story.
I'm very grateful for all partsof my story, no matter how
difficult and sometimes howgoofy and playful it was.
I want to embrace all of it andI truly feel that that gave me
the right to speak, to be and tolive in my truth, to have my
business, to stand tall when Ispeak to people, to be on the
(15:04):
side of and have conversationsand debates rather than
arguments.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Man, what an integrative process to say.
You know, especially that I'moriginally my dad's side of the
family from Venezuela.
So there's, you know the, youknow conflict that comes with
that and you know, being fromthe USSR, I would imagine that
that has its.
You know its own, you knowoperating system of trauma that
(15:34):
comes with it and conflict.
Right, look to spirituality asa jumping of the hard work that
they have to do.
You know it's like, oh, I'mspiritual and they see it and
they're kind of in avoidance andbeing esoterical and kind of
living in the just above groundkind of aspect of it.
(15:56):
When you're absolutely right, Isay you know, I think you're
super onto something thatthere's a commonality with
people that are spiritual, thatthey don't they reject their
parents, right, and then theylive in the kind of the step
above and almost in a place ofjudgment that they're like, hey,
I'm not like you guys, I do nothave the trauma, and where real
(16:17):
healing is is that integrationof all things, is it can be all
of the above and I love thatsaying it's like it can be that
we are both the victim and theperpetrator.
We are the everything that camebefore us and everything that
will be that we're connectedinto a long chain of of history,
right, that is here to create,um, to create, to continue life.
(16:42):
And so what, what way to get tothat?
And through the mother wound isjust such, you know, because
the country that we're from isour motherland as well.
And so, how you know, given thehistory and I recently did a
constellation why I'm veryinterested in this is, you know,
somebody was originally fromRussia and from the USSR.
(17:07):
You know, somebody wasoriginally from Russia and from
the USSR because they had somefamily from Kazakhstan and, you
know, from, you know, the, thegreater USSR, and I, I got
called into the constellation asthe Russia's sacrifice is the,
the cultural trauma of Russia'ssacrifice, and that that had to
be talked about in order toreconcile and connect, and
(17:27):
connect with the lineage.
And so I just um, I knowthere's a lot of stuff going on,
but you know just like what anopportunity for us to heal, to,
to create this, this work for,for profound healing yeah, I
think one of the lessons andgifts that come with having that
(17:47):
heritage, having that ancestry,is we have it in our blood.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
What happens when we deny the past and build from the
ground, like we've done it somany times?
Right, like no Tsar, noimperialism anymore, we'll go to
communism.
And then we did no communismanymore, we're going to
capitalism now and there's a lotof trauma that goes through
generation to generation now andit's kind of almost the same
(18:15):
way of breaking the past,building from the ground.
Breaking the past, buildingfrom the ground.
And now the seeing that, livingthat in the body, embodying
that.
I want to turn around, and Ithink a lot of us are turning
around and saying, rather thanrunning away from it, rather
than, like you said, turning toyour parents and like you guys
(18:37):
didn't know, would you be livingin fairy tales, you have your
trauma.
I don't have a trauma.
Instead, we can say thank you,thank you for living that.
Now your experience allowed meto see and building on top of
that with gratitude, I can takeit in, embody that and move
(19:04):
forward, not pretending that Idon't have trauma, but leaving
your trauma behind and takingwhat is for me to work with,
because that we have resourcesfor right.
I am resourced to walk my path.
What I'm not resourced with isto carry on your trauma.
That's overwhelming, that'soverpowering.
(19:27):
That's where that anger, thatdesperation comes in place.
When it's just so difficult andso hard, we feel so powerless.
Now we're trying to usesubstances to overcome it
instead of connecting to nature,connecting to the roots,
connecting and honoring, becausethere's a lot of beauty,
(19:47):
there's a lot of truth.
In my ancestry, in all of ourancestries, there's a lot of
rituals that are so connected tothe places we live in and when
I move and travel and I havebeen living in the US for many
years and that is an importantpart of my story, I got into my
(20:09):
adulthood in that country but Iwill always carry what's in me
from my ancestry and I can bowto it and take the strongest,
because there's a lot ofstrength in Russian history it
is a lot of this empowermentthat we come in with,
(20:29):
authenticity that we come with.
There's a lot of gifts each oneof us can give to the world and
if I own and bow to my ancestry, that will help me to
communicate, collaborate withpeople from Venezuela, people
from the US, people from Bali.
(20:50):
Maybe, right, bali is taking alot of people in right now, but
remembrance that we all comewith something and that
something is always in us.
It's not just left behind.
We can't run away.
I tried, I did run away.
I tried, I did my part.
I tried.
In my early 20s.
I ran away and there was nosmartphones back then, so I
(21:13):
didn't call.
I didn't want to go back.
For two years I didn't visit.
I hardly called my parents andthat was traumatic for them.
It was an adventure for me.
Now I'm realizing how traumaticit was to experience and now I
don't do that anymore.
I don't disappear anymore.
I'm there and I stand in that.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
And that's, you know, just the power of integration,
that you can be both right, youcan be all the above that we
were talking about earlier.
And you said something aboutaddiction that I know a lot of
people.
There's 12-step programs andthere's a lot of support out
there, but what have you learnedabout addiction and systemic
(21:58):
work and kind of its origins?
What has it shed light on?
Speaker 2 (22:05):
For me it was a lot of suppressed emotions in my
family system.
It was the, I think the in.
If you phrase it in onesentence, it was we must survive
.
We must survive.
I'm not allowed to feel that.
I cannot feel that because Ihave children.
(22:27):
I have to move forward.
And it was constant.
Like if we just take this lastthree generations right, we know
we carry more in our bodies,but if I just look in those
three generations, it was we hadto survive the war, win the war
, recover from the war, build anew regime, make sure it exists
and then spread it to the world.
(22:48):
And then again revolution,survive the revolution, build a
new way of living.
It was constant survival modeand there was constant.
I'm not allowed to feel allthose feelings Plus religion,
spirituality, whatever is yourway in this community, it is a
way to grieve.
(23:09):
We didn't have that, we didn'thave the socially appropriate
way of grieving, so we wouldjust keep it in.
We used traditionally,culturally, we used alcohol for
it.
We gather, we drink and then westart talking or singing Right
(23:30):
and through the music.
Music.
I feel like one of the waysthat became really deep and in
cultures that experience a lotof conflict, music is playing an
important role.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
It's something that allows us to pronounce what is
not allowed to be spoken yeah,yeah, there's, there's, um, you
know, if you were to, if I wereto describe russian art, it
would be beautifully painful,right in literature and music
(24:04):
and art.
It's just, there's such depthof pain but also beauty in it.
So I can completely see wherethose two things kind of come
together.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Yeah, my other side of the family is from Armenia.
My father is Armenian.
In Armenia they say they havethis instrument, duduk.
It's like a flute, but it'smade from the apricot tree.
They say that God gave duduk toArmenia so the people can cry
(24:38):
oh, wow right, so it's everytime it's.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
The tears of the nation are through this
instrument man and in so manyways that you know music is a
portal to collective right andcollective whatever.
That is happiness or pain orgrief, or you know sadness or
joy, or you know the music of apeople have just those
(25:02):
underlying.
You know systemic momentum, forlack of a better term that is
calling out what is trying to,what is trying to be.
But how do you see?
How do you see this, this worktransforming countries and
social systems?
I'm very curious for thatthat's a great question.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
That's that's a really great question and I'm
working very actively for it toreally take place in this, in
the organizational level, and Ibelieve that there's a lot of
trauma we can heal just from themother want.
And I know this is just thebeginning, but it's such an
important beginning Ourrelationship with our mothers,
(25:48):
our honoring of life-givingforce.
And we're talking about motherright.
We start biological mother, butthere's mother nature, right.
We saw many of us refer to thismother nature and honoring
Mother Nature.
How would that transform oursocieties?
(26:10):
How would that transform thecollective?
That's just one part of it, onelittle but very, very important
part of it.
A few years ago, I wrote a blogthat said how do we stop the
war?
And that's what I wrote about.
(26:31):
I wrote about the mother wound.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Yeah, that's our first connection right and we
know from systemic work howimportant the connection to
mother, the connection to source, you know that connection to
our lineage and how, because youknow mothers literally carry us
in their bodies right that, howmuch a disconnection and that
(26:57):
can repeat in the family systemand people don't really
understand what a mother woundis and they don't.
If you had to, you know, kindof put it in broad terms, what
would?
What would the mother woundlook like or show up in
somebody's life like?
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Well, I want to first name this when I say mother
wound and I, the unconditional,soul-deep connection, soul-deep
(27:44):
love between the mother and thechild.
That is just unbreakable andthe need of the child to have
mother love and the soul levelof the mother to give that love
to the child.
And I always say the soul level.
(28:06):
On a soul level, the parentalways wants the best for the
children and the capacity, whenit can be given on a human level
or whatever block that standsin between mother and child,
that's the wound, that's thepart that hides that love.
(28:29):
But that love is unbreakable,it's always going to be there.
There, in a little differentwords, is like, for example, if
we say what I did not receivefrom my mother, I demand from my
partner.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
That's a very good point.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Yeah, yeah, what I did not receive from my mother,
I may demand from my work, frommy job, even from my boss, from
my mother.
I may demand from my work, frommy job, even from my boss, from
my therapist.
How do we dictate to that?
We want, we crave it so much,we want to go and we want to
place our therapist, our boss,our manager, our partner onto
(29:12):
her place.
And then now they are the onesand we are demanding it together
.
In more mundane way, it could bepeople pleasing, yeah, it could
be rough inner dialogue.
It could be the same addictions.
It could be so many ways.
(29:35):
There are so many ways weexpress it through inability to
make money, inability to receivemoney right.
It's why, when it's like makemoney, it's like make is the
wrong word.
Receive money, receiveabundance in whatever way it
comes to us, because there isanger towards right.
I want to direct that youdidn't give me enough and then
(29:57):
will judge.
I think one of the biggestquotes that I use and I resonate
with a lot, when Bert Hellingersaid money, life and mother are
similar energies, the way wetreat our mother is the way life
(30:18):
treats us.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Hi, I'm John from the Zulu One podcast.
If you like what you're hearingand it resonates with you,
please consider becoming amonthly supporter.
The link is below Thanks, A lotof pop culture right now, or
pop psychology, is talking about, you know, narcissists and it's
like, oh, my mother was anarcissist or my father was a
narcissist and you know, one ofthe things that I talk to people
(30:40):
about when I'm facilitating isthat your mother, in the here
and now, you may have adifficult relationship with her.
You can bow to the metaconnected version of her right.
How do you navigate thatdynamic?
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Yeah, there's another quote from my teacher and I
think Bert also said somethingsimilar to it, but it was
whatever we judge, we reject,right.
So if I judge my mother, Ireject, life rejects me.
(31:17):
That's interesting circle.
Yes, we work when mother human,biological mother is not
available.
For this connection there's alot to work with going backwards
.
But we work with the soul and Ithink one of the ways that
(31:38):
people really get it regardlessif you have children or not,
biological children or not, yourjob is your baby.
Maybe you give in a differentway.
But if you have a child and youimagine, imagine the child is
suffering your trauma and theysubconsciously that's part of
(32:04):
the mother wound the bondbetween the child and the mother
is so strong that the childsubconsciously says I'll suffer
for you, I'll take in yourtrauma, as if that somehow would
take it away from you.
Imagine your child tells youI'll suffer for you.
What does it cost anybody?
(32:28):
Right, how heavy it feels?
It's immediately going intoplease, please don't, please
don't.
I'll take it, I'll handle it.
When we stand in the field, whenwe work with the constellations
, it is extremely painful togive your trauma to your child,
(32:52):
to consciously pass on thisheaviness to your child.
On this heaviness to your child, we find it every time the only
way.
When the soul of the motherdoes not give love to a child
and when she has the death wishshe wants to die in some way,
(33:13):
for whatever reason.
And the child is picking up onthat and subconsciously saying
I'm just like you.
Right, because the child's lovelove me because I'm just like
you.
So that love says I will wantto die too.
I will die for you, I'll diewith you, so you will love me.
(33:34):
That's the mother wound.
I love you so much, I'll diefor you.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
It's so interesting that you said you know people,
that you know even people thatdidn't have children, that our
product is our children as well,that our work or our businesses
or the projects that we'reinvolved with take on that same
energy in some way right, thatthey take on this repeated
pattern that is not only withyour children.
(34:04):
That is, everything that youproduce out of life, out of love
, will carry these burdens, outof loyalty.
Just such a you know, such aninteresting perspective and I
love how you put it so simply.
Such an interesting perspectiveand I love how you put it so
simply and so concisely forpeople.
(34:28):
And it's the first step, right,and I did some work with Mark
Wallen many years ago and he wasdoing a lot of work with the
mother wound and a lot of theconstellations were simply
somebody sitting in the chairand if there was a disconnection
from mom when they were young,it was simply mom getting closer
and getting closer and gettingcloser and then just connecting
(34:49):
and I was like it was just, itwas so quiet and so profound and
just recreating that connection.
Because you may not you may, youknow, ideally have a great
relationship with mom, right,but she got sick, or it was a
really difficult pregnancy andshe had to be separated from the
child.
For you know X, y, z, manyreasons, right, or you know
(35:12):
there could have been many, manystories that happened.
And just simply recognizingthat connection and
understanding your, you knowyour birth story, or if you were
adopted, or if you had toemigrate or had to, there was
war or there was conflict, oryou know something that was
going on, that how that patterncan manifest in your life over
(35:32):
and over, and over and overagain and over again.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Yeah, I think another very powerful healing and what
you shared is absolutely justquietly walking, and for so many
of us it's it's a verydifficult journey, step by step,
walking to mom, and there'sanother angle that may be
healing.
Healing, mom, I know you wouldgive me more love if you could,
(36:03):
if you received it from yourmother, opening yourself to that
.
If you could, I know I know youwould have.
I know that you had trauma.
It's easier said than done, likewe mentally understand.
(36:24):
We know that if there was aconflict it was an abuse.
We know that she wasn't happy,right, nobody abuses their
children when they're happy.
But, understanding it, peoplehave this tendency oh, forgive
her, I forgive her right.
And that's not the way ofhealing.
That's not how we do in familyconsultations.
In ancestral healing there's noforgiving your mother, right,
(36:48):
it's embracing and that littlephrase of just those words may
shift a little bit to create anopening, may shift a little bit
to create an opening and in thatopening we can work with more
embrace, more healing.
I know you would, I know youwould, if you could, I know you
(37:13):
would give it to me and byhonoring myself, I honor you.
By honoring myself.
I honor you by giving love tomyself.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
I honor your life story.
Yeah, that in your honor I willsucceed.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
In your honor, I will succeed.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
Yeah, definitely, that's absolutely, and bless me
if I choose to do it differently, right?
Please bless me if I choose todo it differently.
It's just such a profoundstatement of connection rather
than judgment, right and I andyou know that concept of
forgiveness.
I've talked about it in acouple podcasts.
It's like that concept offorgiveness like first you have
to judge and then absolve rightand forgiveness.
(37:52):
It's like we're no one toforgive.
That's between you and yourcreator, you know, rather than
it being.
You know this, this, thisrighteousness that comes with
with forgiveness.
You know?
Speaker 2 (38:03):
yeah, because I forgive right.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
I'm big enough to forgive what a great being I am
yeah, it's all ego, right, andyou know this work is just how
to right size is right size ego.
You know some people are like Iwant to kill the ego.
It's like no ego helps younavigate the world right, but
having an oversized one is whatgets you in trouble right and
(38:26):
and repeats those patterns.
And you know one thing that Ithat I learned early on is that
it's a.
It's a, it's an active ego tocarry things for our parents.
It's that you're the small oneand I'm the big one, so I will
carry this for you.
It's like oh.
When I heard that, I was like oh, man, that hit me pretty hard.
(38:51):
That one hit me pretty hardbecause I understood that it
only makes me the martyr and youknow the one that's carrying
this burden for the family.
You know that it gives mepurpose in some way that, rather
than saying like, the realassumption of responsibility is
that statement of in your honor,I will succeed To navigate the
(39:14):
unknown, to assume fullresponsibility of, of taking
your future into your own hands,with the support of your
ancestors, in your rightfulposition and there's this
bigness that comes with I'm.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
I'm healing, right like I'm, I'm the one who break
the chains, I am the one, likeyou guys couldn't, and I'm gonna
do it for you, right this?
And it comes with thisrightfulness, right Like it,
almost like you're speaking forthe whole ancestor, you're
speaking with all those you'representing, like you couldn't
take it for, just for your love.
(39:47):
It's difficult to express, totake in that self-love right and
care for this.
But if I'm standing with acrowd and I'm doing it for the
crowd of people, how right am I,how big.
And it takes bravery to givethat up, to be more humble and
say I'm just me, I'm the childof my parents, the grandchild of
(40:11):
my grandparents, and putyourself back into that.
When we are that big and wetalk to what should be equal to
us, our partners, and we feellike I am always right because I
have all this behind me, it'slike no, I'm, I'm humble.
I think that's maybe why somany spiritual teachings and
(40:32):
religions teach us to be humble.
To be humble, to come back intoyou're, the child of creation.
Take that place and it comeswith empowerment and in response
, we get the resources to walkour path.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
Yeah, so what do you see kind of the future of your
work looking like?
What does a couple of yearsdown the road look like?
Speaker 2 (41:01):
great question.
I really walk towards umworking with, uh business people
.
Like you said, when you, whenyou, when your project is your
child, right, then we, hopefullywe walk through the.
We know mother wound is alifelong journey, father wound
is a lifelong journey, butthere's more capacity opens up
(41:25):
when we step out of that victimand now we're the creator, right
.
But when, before you do thebusiness, if you have this
mother wound, if you have thisunsolved relationships, you're
going to, you're going to put iton your business right.
You're going to keep onbringing it in and demanding the
business or being angry atbusiness, or expecting the
(41:47):
business to be or keep failing,not being able to receive, not
being able to put the rightprice for the product, to open
yourself to that as well, tobring the impact.
And I feel that there's aripple effect that we can do.
I truly believe that it's veryempowering to walk the path of
entrepreneurship and experienceall because, right as as as we
(42:11):
do that it's every hiddendynamic all of a sudden is not
so hidden.
Yeah, exactly, it shows up rightthere You're taking on.
You're kind of like coming outof this stroller when the life
is almost like somebody else'skarma, somebody else's thing,
and now you're like, okay, okay,so making that step boom in the
(42:32):
face.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Yeah, here's your ancestry.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
Here's your block, here's your non-ability to
receive, non-ability to embraceright, here's where you're
stepping into victimhood.
Here's a dual I need with theperpetrator and it's kind of
like constantly goes tick-tockin your heart and creating the
whole structure.
And once we're able to put inour own destiny, our own ability
(43:01):
to choose right or maybedestiny is somebody associated
with, something is decided forme, but our ability to make a
choice while paying gratitudehow difficult, different the
businesses would be if everystep would make would turn
around and say thank you tothose who came before us, with
respect, with gratitude, andmove forward.
(43:23):
Not, I know better.
Oh, this is a new way, this isinnovating with like all you did
was wrong and now we're doingit.
Every time we walk right,Instead of thinking like they
didn't know, I know more now.
Thinking like they didn't know,I know more now, I know better
now, saying like, okay, thankyou, Because of you, because of
(43:46):
what I may consider as mistake,but hopefully not because of the
steps that you walked, I canjump on it and, rather than
chasing after the next new thing, new thing, new thing, denying
what was before, creating moreand more garbage right, More and
more destruction, in harmonyand move towards harmony, move
(44:14):
towards the cycles, working withthe cycles of nature, working
in collaboration, realizingright in modern nature.
Back to the same thing.
I cannot work without havingthat behind my shoulders all the
time.
That is part of what I considerwith every move that I make.
(44:34):
It's not and, if I want, it'snot chasing the money, getting
more money.
It's opening to receiving theabundance coming in.
It's a different way ofbuilding your business, and I
truly believe that business andfamily are not two different
things.
They're the same thing.
Right, we're coming within that, and if I'm creating business
(44:55):
but I'm ashamed to tell mychildren about it, I'm maybe not
doing the things I want tocreate.
And if it creates more wastethan the product and if there's
no way of circling in, that isnot sustainable.
That is not the way I'mhonoring.
(45:15):
What I'm working towards isthis synchronous, harmonious
co-creation, and for that thefirst step is stepping into
creator, out of the victim intothe creator, and then, the more
we have, the more we're able tocreate organizations that will
(45:35):
work from that in mind.
My background istransformational travel.
That's where I come from.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
So for me, that's been on my radar for a while and
choosing the way of coming backand bringing knowledge and
wisdom, rather than escaping andliving the destruction and
coming back with just Ooh.
Okay, I relax for a little bitNow I can continue the chase,
continue, continue this.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
That is, that is the the intention.
I want to say the goal, butthat's not the goal I'm living
in.
So that's the intention ofspreading that more of that.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
Yeah, I love you know so I'm.
I'm big into family and tosystems, right, and so that's
the intention of spreading thatmore of that.
The conversation transformswhen I'm talking to facilitators
from family, which is verytender, very soft, and then you
start in on the system side.
It's like let's get to work.
You know we got these thingsand like you can really, you
(46:44):
know, get into the gears and themechanisms that propel
businesses towards connectionand it's just such a, it's such
a such an effective way ofmanaging an organization is you
can really look at it and havethe tenderness of family
constellations but with theeffectiveness of of systemic
constellations is such a such acool way.
(47:05):
I wish everybody did this.
You know that there waseducational platforms all over
the world that was saying, hey,you can do this with governments
, you can do this withbusinesses, you can do this with
non-for-profits, you can dothis with, and imagine the world
that we would create if weconstantly integrated systemic
consolation principles intoeverything that we did.
So, man, I love that you'refocused on that side.
(47:28):
That's what I love aboutsystemic consolations is you can
really apply it to become aforce multiplier for connection
rather than destruction.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
Yeah, yeah, there are some schools there, right,
there are a few schools in theworld who work using systemic
installation and it's beautifuland I wish more and more of that
come to the world.
And children are definitelybeautiful creatures to work with
using systemic installationsand there's business and I think
part of it beautiful creaturesto work with using systemic
installations, and there'sbusiness and I think part of it.
It's also a little bit ofexperience coming from those um
(48:02):
spiritual communities, right, um, living, being in it.
There is wound around money aswell.
There's this wounded healer,right.
So it's almost we just comingout of that um stage when money
was forbidden, like sex andmoney are not spiritual, and we
just started like actually, no,actually there's a lot of
(48:25):
spirituality and spiritual powerand empowerment in both of this
.
And receiving and woundedhealer like not doing the work
for free, giving it for free,not being able to live
sustainably and doing somethingyou hate and doing that as a
hobby.
Is that the way you want thecommunities to be built?
Is that how we have thetechnology?
(48:47):
We have so much already spreadthat we're able to leverage that
work to create the communitiesthat they build around it, to
bring back the value of gentleand efficient right.
It doesn't have to be either or, like you said, we can do both.
It's that union, thatnon-duality, that dance of
feminine and masculine that gowithin, that don't have to
(49:09):
choose that one dependent andother way interdependent.
We now know that.
We have the science got to it.
We no longer have that conflictbetween science and
spirituality.
They're so close, they're somerging together, and we have
the technology to allow us tospread it, to ripple it with
such efficiency.
(49:30):
So what if we marry all that,what if we bring that all
together?
What kind of world will that be?
Speaker 1 (49:56):
looming thing over our heads with.
You know, ai, that's coming in,and you know I've said this a
couple times already but I thinkthe next phase is that
integration, that exactintegration that you're talking
about, that there's a darkmatter, morphic resonance,
whatever you want to callsystemic entanglement, whatever
you want to call that that thingthat connects, connects all
pieces of a system that we'regoing to just we're at the
precipice of discovering thatand that we can actually work on
(50:18):
it, that there's a way toeffectively heal it connected,
unentangle it and create systemsthat have incredible momentum.
That what's the differencebetween a business that you
would say that is, you know whatpeople would can eventually
call evil and a business that istruly connected, or that that
treats their employees right andbirds of a feather flock
(50:40):
together and they all come to tocreate this, this um place
where it it fosters connectionand abundance and momentum,
rather than disconnection andrepeating the old destruction
that you were talking aboutbefore.
Speaker 2 (50:55):
Yeah, and I think the part that needs to be worked on
the most is that permission,and that's part of the
mother-wanted self.
I had permission for that toemerge, permission for that to
happen, permission to walktowards, permission to not plug
(51:18):
into the victim-perpetrator, notplug into the anger, into the
conflict, permission to stand inyour inner truth, permission to
be and not resist, not reject.
We have technology is also areally interesting topic, right,
and I'm going to speak to thata little bit and I want to speak
on why I chose familyconstellations specifically
(51:41):
after trying so many.
Technology is part where we'reeither addicted to it or we
resist it, reject it.
It's very rare when somebodygoes in and is like, yes, I have
a very harmonious relationship,I use it for my business, but I
know as soon as I'm done, I putit down and I went and I
disconnected.
(52:02):
I'm lucky.
Some lucky of us have thatrelationship, but for the most
of us, either I'm constantly init or I'm afraid of it.
I have fear, especiallyartificial intelligence, right.
I don't want to deal.
It scares me, it's just, it'swrong way for the humanity to
develop.
I'm going to completelydisconnect and just pretend it
(52:24):
doesn't exist.
I wish neither one of thosefields are obvious.
Neither one of us moves usforward.
And another part is when workingwith energy.
So meditation, it takes time,it takes opening, it takes
structure.
It's a lot of spiritualityspecifically received by that.
Some of that we know.
(52:45):
Ayahuasca, the other medicine,it takes bravery to walk into
that.
Family constellations is one ofthe very few modalities in
which you don't need anything,any prerequisite, to walk into
and it's so undeniable when youhave other people reflect.
You don't talk stories, right,we don't tell that happened and
(53:07):
then that happened and then thathappened.
No, you just open the space,you give that permission in
simple words and simpleintention, and you see and you
resonate and you feel right.
You know the beauty of it yeahand it's undeniable it's
undeniable.
Speaker 1 (53:27):
It's undeniable, it's just, it's.
It's truer than true.
It's like seeing it's.
It's like it's.
It's at night.
It's undeniable that it's darkout and it's undeniable that
it's light out when you see thepattern where the system emerged
in the constellation, it'struer than true.
It's the base of reality.
Speaker 2 (53:47):
It seems like yeah, and you don't need the guru to
tell you that you don't need theteaching to that, you just need
to show up and that's it.
You that you don't need theteaching to that, you just need
to show up and that's it.
And I feel so much power inthat mentality because of it,
because if we just show, when weshow, it's so out there that
you can feel it and through youyou can bring it to others.
(54:10):
Right, and we have this, it'sso.
I'm obsessed with it.
Honestly, just talking aboutbeing with it, stepping into it,
it's the.
My whole walk is like peoplecry it, that's it.
I don't need to convince you, Idon't need to tell you how it
is or what it, what would andwhat you will feel it.
(54:30):
You feel it and that's enough.
And that's your, your wisdom,that comes from within you.
Nobody else is needed.
There's no church you have togo and listen to.
There's nothing else that youneed to happen.
There's no substance you needto take.
There's no shaman that needs tojump around you.
None of that is necessary.
You can sing, you can speak,you can use sage.
(54:53):
You can use other tools, butthey're optional.
Everything else that you needis already here.
Speaker 1 (54:59):
Yeah, yeah, and I tell a lot of people it's like
it's not multi-level marketing.
You don't have to join a club,you don't have to get to
different levels, you don't haveto join a religion, you don't
have to join a cult, you don'thave to join anything.
You can do one and becompletely done with it, or do
it you know and understand thework and use it as a modality
through your life.
It's doesn't, it's like karateor yoga, it's like it's.
(55:21):
It's just a practice and you,you use it as a methodology to
figure some stuff out, and thenyou don't, and if anybody tells
you otherwise, turn around andrun away because they're using
it for nefarious reasons.
And that's what I and you're soright, that's why I'm so.
I think obsessed is the rightword.
Right Is that I'm so dedicatedto this work?
Because it doesn't.
(55:42):
You know, you don't have to,there's no convincing.
You just have to see it and itwill be a thing and you'll be on
the other side of the chasm.
And then you kind of see theforest for the trees and you see
the patterns and you startbeing like, oh, why am I
entangled in this dynamic?
What, what learned?
What lesson have I not learnedbefore that I need to deal with
(56:03):
now and work through and figureout how to give this back to
where it actually belongs.
That's it just so beautiful,you know.
It's so beautifully elegant.
Speaker 2 (56:13):
And it incorporates the ego as a friend, not as
something to remove or break orkill.
So integrational, I love that.
I think the word would bedevoted.
I'm devoted to this work.
I'm devoted.
When I first came across thatit blew my mind really.
(56:34):
It was like why don't we teachit in schools?
Why don't we tell everyonethat's what it is?
How is it not a commonknowledge?
And then I got into gratitudethat I'm living in times when we
are on the edge of that andit's up to us to spread it.
(56:55):
It yeah they just don't have topick it up.
I can.
I can be the one among the oneswho shine the light inside here
.
Speaker 1 (57:02):
If you want it, it's here and the, the systemic
resistance factor from asystemic constellations
perspective is really, reallyinteresting.
You see, you know people thatare like, hey, I'm gonna go do a
constellation.
And then you know they had aflat tire and their dog got sick
and the dog threw up all overthe place.
Or you know their kid somethinghappened with the child.
(57:23):
Or you know they woke up late.
Or you know, whatever lifethrows at you to keep the system
the same, and people, it givesthem great excuses.
You know it's like, oh, my momcalled and she was sick, and
then like all the everybody willplay their part in the system
to keep it the same.
And the same thing withbusiness is like, oh, there'll
be an emergency and there'll bea thing.
And they're like every lifewill throw you all the exclusive
(57:46):
, all the excuses to keep, andthat, that, that systemic
resistance, is the clue of thepower of the system, of the.
You know how entrenched thatdynamic is in the field.
Right, it's like just like, ah,that's why I need to do this
work.
Speaker 2 (58:02):
It's interesting, you brought it up.
I was talking to my sisterrecently and I was trying to
convince her like no, it wasn'tthe first time, like multiple
times she was telling me aboutthe issue with her health, with
her joints, and I was talking toher and it's like why did you
try it?
Why didn't you go?
And it's like always her answeris no, no, no, I don't need it,
(58:23):
it's not, that's not for me, I,I don't know, I, that's not,
I'm not gonna go.
And then the final is like,okay, I really want to
understand, tell me why not, whywouldn't you go to that?
And that's what?
What do you call it Systemic?
Yes, you have it.
And there's also mentalresistance, right.
And she told me things like oh,I get it.
She said I know I'm not, I knowwhat is wrong, I know that I
(58:49):
need to change my job, I'm doingthe thing that I don't like, I
know that this, my marriage, isprobably not right for me
anymore and I'm afraid it willshow me that and I will have no
excuses not to change oh, thatis, that is profound right and
(59:12):
it's funny thing and I rememberI was contemplating in it and I
came up with this, but the thethe thought came with how
success stops us from healing,from truly enjoying our life.
we see all successful inspecific way, like I have a, I
(59:33):
cannot.
I'm successful in my marriage.
I cannot give it up.
Or I have this job.
It's comfortable, it's secure,it gives me money, it's.
I don't want to give it up.
I know if I go into onto thishealing path it will.
It will take it away from me.
Wow, and I really wanted tobring that.
Part of you have a choice.
We have a choice.
We have a choice.
There's this secondary benefit,right, Every disease has a
(59:57):
secondary benefit.
If we have it, some part of uswants it.
And there's a dialogue, right.
This is the power of our humanbeings, the creative power of I
can choose in which way, in howdo I satisfy the deep craving,
the deep need that I have?
(01:00:18):
I can choose.
I can choose to still go onwith that disease if I want to.
People have cancers realize thatthat's about the not
forgiveness that they experienceand they still choose cancer.
We have the right to choose.
We are the creators.
But you're no longer in thevictim of it.
(01:00:39):
You're no longer the victim ofcancer, You're no longer the
victim of disease.
You're the one who chose it.
So if you choose that, it'syour right.
You may choose otherwise.
You may give up your job inexchange for something unknown.
Yes, it takes bravery.
Yes, it's difficult.
(01:00:59):
Yes, there's a specific energyinput right that's required to
jump from that to overcome thatsystemic resistance.
There is a free will.
We have that.
Speaker 1 (01:01:14):
We are the great humans.
Yeah, we have that.
We are the great humans.
Yeah, I think it was.
I think you posted a short thatwas the opposite of victim is
creator and that just resonatedwith me so much.
It's like the opposite ofvictim isn't perpetrator, the
opposite of a victim is thecreator.
Right, it's like really to lookat it from that and it's just
(01:01:36):
like, like you and you said thata couple of times and I'm like
it's you're, you're so right,you know, the opposite of the
victim is the creator, is the,the.
The creator steps inresponsibility, right, and and
you know Michelle Blechner talksabout this a lot and I love her
how she talks about words asresponsibility is the ability to
respond, not to be stuck in thetrauma, right in the unresolved
(01:01:59):
trauma, and that's like ah man,what, oh?
That.
That really puts things inperspective.
To say the opposite of a victimis a creator, you know, gives
you the authority, the to the,you know the authoring of your
life, rather than being somebody, that things just simply happen
to, life just simply happens to.
Speaker 2 (01:02:19):
Yeah.
And then just in this simpleinvitation right to go.
What if it's not necessarilythis is what it is?
What if?
Is it beneficial for you toadapt and believe?
And if it is not?
If it is beneficial, why don'tyou?
Why don't you try that likeinviting people to that?
What if you step at the creator?
(01:02:41):
What if life happens for you,always, always?
How does your life change thatlittle shift?
Speaker 1 (01:02:50):
wow, because that this has has been an incredible
conversation and I think that'sa great place to wrap it up.
I'd love to have you back.
If people want to get a hold ofyou, how do they do that?
Speaker 2 (01:03:04):
Yeah, oh, facebook is the easiest way.
Probably.
Vika D Chan is where they canfind me.
My website is ancestral-alchemy.
That's maybe also easy, but I'mopen for conversations.
If you find me on Facebook,please connect and I would love
to chat.
And thank you so much, john,for inviting.
Speaker 1 (01:03:26):
Mika, thank you so much.
This has been beautiful, verymuch appreciated, and love the
systemic work and love whatyou're doing.
So if you ever need support orif you ever want to come back
and talk about something you'redoing, so if you ever need
support or if you ever want tocome back and talk about
something you're doing, we'dlove to have you.
Speaker 2 (01:03:38):
Yeah, very grateful for your podcast and spreading
the knowledge rippling thehealing through all the world.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (01:03:44):
The least that I can do, thank you.
Thanks for tuning in to theZulu One podcast.
If you found value in today'spodcast, please don't forget to
like, share and subscribe.
Your support means everythingto us and thank you for being
(01:04:12):
part of this journey.
Welcome to the Zulu One Podcast.
Today we're joined by VikaDittan, an ancestral healing
practitioner who helps othersovercome inherited trauma
through systemic familyconstellations.
Her journey from communistRussia to studying with
spiritual masters worldwideinspires her work, blending
ancient wisdom with modernhealing techniques.
Enjoy this episode, Bika thankyou for being here.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Thank you for inviting Honored to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
I'm very, very happy to you know the fact that we
connected and to hear about thesystemic work that you're doing
and I always love starting withthat.
And you know, for for thelisteners, we started with a
guided meditation.
That's very, very systemic and,um, it always gets me different
, different aspects of it getsme, you know, I have a couple
(01:01):
versions of that and what theone that was coming up for me on
this one was the excluded ones,very heavily on the excluded
ones.
I don't know what came up foryou on that meditation.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
When I just started working with my family system, I
discovered that my name is thesame name of the son of my
great-grandfather, who came backfrom war and was missing for
seven years, and mygrand-grandma as it was seven
(01:43):
years, right Time passed, so shestarted living with another man
and he became the father of herchildren and when her first
husband came back, there was aconflict and they decided in
whatever way, I don't know thestory that he will leave and he
did story that he will live, andhe did and he started a new
(02:12):
family and his son was namedVictor.
My full name is Victoria and Inever heard of him.
I never heard of that part ofthe family, but he is my blood
relative.
I am the.
My grandfather is his son and Irealized that that part of the
story was was never mentionedand that was a huge realization
(02:34):
for me and I started digging andasking more and there was a lot
hidden under that dynamic.
So thank you for thismeditation.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Thank you, thank you for that.
That was beautiful and what aninteresting story is that you
know the secondary and tertiaryeffects that happen with war,
right, that there's thesesystems and we're all complex
systems and you know what aheartbreaking story you know,
but also beautiful in some way,that life does go on.
(03:04):
And what a gift that he didcome back into the system in his
own way and then started hisown family again.
And you know what a what a richand and heartbreaking but also
beautiful story, right that Iwould imagine that that was a
very slow, difficult process togo through.
What was that like?
Speaker 2 (03:26):
slow, difficult process to go through.
What was that like?
Yeah, it was interesting and Ialso met some resistance from my
family when I started askingquestions.
It was a lot of why do you needto know?
This has been a long time, itdoesn't matter, but it did
matter for me and I knew that onsome level that it did matter
for me and it did matter for mybody, for my life story, because
(03:49):
the reason I started workingwith it was a deep, deep
depression that I couldn't getrid of and I couldn't explain
and I didn't know, and just thiswork was so profound for me.
Then, from the first session, Irealized that I am carrying it
in one way or another and I'mfeeling it and life kind of
(04:11):
started making sense a littlemore.
It empowered me to go into adeeper journey and discover and
search for the answers not faraway, in some far away wisdom
that was a little foreign to me,but within my family, within
myself.
That gave me a lot of freedom.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
So how were you initially exposed to this work?
How did it?
How did that journey happen?
Were you kind of from that,that depression, or the battle
with that battle with depression?
How did you?
How did you get to, to whereyou are now?
Speaker 2 (04:47):
so I work with energy in a different way and a
feminine way, in the divine,feminine archetypes, for many
years.
And once the events happen anddepression happened and it came
with addictions and my way ofdealing with it was through
substances, a friend who triedto get me out of it invited me
(05:10):
to Thailand to go on a yogaretreat and I've been already
living the life of a digitalnomad for years, ever since I
had the chance.
And during that retreat therewere multiple practitioners
invited so we could do the fullcleansing mental body cleansing,
(05:30):
mind cleansing and one of thepractitioners was trained in
multiple modalities, in EMDR andhypnosis, in NLP and family
constellations as well.
So I did a session with him, umfor two hours and that really
shocked my world.
That really changed everythingfor me.
(05:51):
He had Italian ancestry, I haveRussian ancestry and the
question of war came up veryquickly and the consequences of
war that were in the body andthe conflict they came with it
through multiple branches of myfamily system and I remember
(06:12):
that he used pillows torepresent um.
That was very unfamiliar to me.
I knew nothing about umsystemic isolation at that point
and when I came out of thatroom I felt quiet that I think I
haven't felt since maybe very,very early childhood and that
(06:34):
started a search for me to whatelse is on there and I started
asking questions of who isteaching that, how is that
available?
And he directed me of who isteaching that, how is that
available?
And he directed me, of course,to the Hellinger School, to the
origins, and my life turnedaround very much and I came to
(06:55):
visit my family and startedthose conversations what was
there?
And started looking more withinand I started using my
meditations to go through theancestry and even going through
yoga, right, the process ofkundalini rising, and they
(07:16):
always told us about grounding.
Grounding you have to ground,as this is two-way movement the
higher you go, the deeper yourroots need to be.
And that specific work and Idealt with like my number one
request was addictions.
I want to work with it and Iwant to walk through that.
(07:39):
I'm at the level when almostlife-threatening this is not
going to end well and it helped.
It really did.
It took months to contemplate,to take in and I started working
with constellations almostevery week and I went into the
program and I found my teacher,the teacher I really enjoyed and
(08:04):
resonated with and I did atwo-years program every week.
Every week we did that andthrough that process, layer by
layer, right.
And then the second I remember Irealized the inner critic
changed that voice inside right.
And the first time it probablytook surprisingly fast, right,
(08:26):
because we hear about peoplegoing to therapy a long time,
but it lasted two years later.
I remember talking to thecamera, like recording myself on
the camera, and then hearingthat doubt.
It's like oh, is it good enough?
Do I look good enough?
I'm not sure.
And then for the first time Iheard the inner critic go what
are you talking about?
(08:46):
You look great.
You never look better.
And that was such a littlething, right.
It was such a huge shift tohave that conversation instead
of normal, you know, not so kindvoice that I used to for 20, 30
years already.
That made a difference for me.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
That's so interesting that you say that Did that
because I've been seeing a lotof inner child work recently.
Did that come after theconnection with the inner child?
I'm curious to know about that.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
No, inner child work came first.
Okay, that was probably thefoundation for me.
Inner child work came first.
Okay, that was probably thefoundation for me.
Yeah, that that's establishingthat connection with the inner
child was profound in a similarway because it wasn't known to
me before, but once it was there, I think for me it went into,
(09:40):
yeah, in a child, then in acritic yeah, once you reconcile,
like all the pieces of you, youstart getting an alignment and
it's like oh yeah, like this isthat inner, inner conflict that
we have that, you know, wants tokeep separate rather than than
connecting it's.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
It's such a such an interesting thing.
Man, I know that you, um, youfocus heavily on the mother
wound and I'm interested to seewhere that came from.
How did you kind of stumblealong this focus?
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Yeah, Well, I have a really interesting childhood.
On one hand, I think a lot ofpeople think it was great.
It was great right.
And at the same time, I am achild of divorced parents and
when that conflict happenedbetween my parents, the way I
received it, it was through mybody and I had what later was
(10:37):
already diagnosed as psoriasis.
It was like a really heavy rush, untreatable rush on the body,
and that was one of the things Itried healing and I didn't
realize it's what it was until ashaman told me that's what it
is.
Like you, you just, this is theway you expressing the conflict
between parents, and that madesense to me and that was I was
(11:01):
still about 13, 14 at that ageand that was.
I was still about 13, 14 atthat age and when I had a chance
to run away, I did.
I left the country and that'swhat I was running from and I
knew there's a conflict.
I think, like Mania was now,because every time there was
communication, it wasinteraction with my biological
(11:23):
mother, human mother, right.
There was constantly that break, this anger, this burst, this
that was well, I don't know ifit's right to say that, but at
some level that was almost thereason I would drink more, the
reason I would take moresubstances in right, it was so
difficult to get over it.
(11:45):
It was so and that inner criticsounded like my mom.
Definitely.
I heard my mom's voice in thatand it was through 30s.
It was a long time.
No matter what achievement,what was happening in my career,
what job, what relationship Ihad, it was constantly that
voice.
So I knew there's that part andas I was going deeper into
(12:09):
systemic constellations Irealized there is a, there's a
the wound, the wound.
Conflict is wrong, the wound,with the father as well.
And I learned that one isalways connected to another
right.
But once I started focusinglike okay, this is the
foundation, right, this is thenumber one thing.
(12:29):
You cannot skip that.
I just cannot.
And like many, I think, in mygeneration, started looking for
spirituality.
I was raised in Christianity,not so strong, because it wasn't
, it was USSR.
Our religion was politics.
We didn't have that right.
But technically Christianity.
(12:50):
I was baptized and I knew whatchurch is.
I knew the teachings of theBible.
I just wasn't forced topractice them actively.
But I went into spirituality andkind of blazed another way.
There is deeper way and that'sthe same way of Kundalini rising
, but refusing the parents.
And I realized that a lot ofpeople around me I lived in
(13:15):
spiritual communities.
I traveled to Mexico, I livedin Hawaii, I lived in Bali and
everybody was in almost everysecond person that I came across
with my parents don'tunderstand me.
I don't have my ownrelationship with my mother.
I don't talk about spiritualswith my parents, and when I came
across systemic constellation,I realized that we're trying to
(13:37):
bypass with it and it became socommon and so normalized in
spiritual communities.
It's like, yeah, not the parents, and I wanted to bring it back.
I didn't want to skip, I didn'twant to bypass, I wanted the
ground, I wanted my roots to godeep.
I didn't want to say no, nomatter what happened in my
(13:57):
country, what's happening rightnow, I didn't want to say I'm
running away from it.
I wanted to go back and I did.
I went back to my parents, Iwent back to my country and I'm
constantly rotating.
I'm living that migrationalpath of living between different
countries, but I will never saythat I don't want to have
anything to do with this.
(14:17):
This is no longer my future.
It is my future.
It's my past and it's my futureand it's part of my story, and
I feel much more empowered byspeaking the full truth of
myself.
This is my background.
This is where I came from.
I am very connected.
I will never refuse that.
(14:38):
That's my story.
I'm very grateful for all partsof my story, no matter how
difficult and sometimes howgoofy and playful it was.
I want to embrace all of it andI truly feel that that gave me
the right to speak, to be and tolive in my truth, to have my
business, to stand tall when Ispeak to people, to be on the
(15:04):
side of and have conversationsand debates rather than
arguments.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Man, what an integrative process to say.
You know, especially that I'moriginally my dad's side of the
family from Venezuela.
So there's, you know the, youknow conflict that comes with
that and you know, being fromthe USSR, I would imagine that
that has its.
You know its own, you knowoperating system of trauma that
(15:34):
comes with it and conflict.
Right, look to spirituality asa jumping of the hard work that
they have to do.
You know it's like, oh, I'mspiritual and they see it and
they're kind of in avoidance andbeing esoterical and kind of
living in the just above groundkind of aspect of it.
(15:56):
When you're absolutely right, Isay you know, I think you're
super onto something thatthere's a commonality with
people that are spiritual, thatthey don't they reject their
parents, right, and then theylive in the kind of the step
above and almost in a place ofjudgment that they're like, hey,
I'm not like you guys, I do nothave the trauma, and where real
(16:17):
healing is is that integrationof all things, is it can be all
of the above and I love thatsaying it's like it can be that
we are both the victim and theperpetrator.
We are the everything that camebefore us and everything that
will be that we're connectedinto a long chain of of history,
right, that is here to create,um, to create, to continue life.
(16:42):
And so what, what way to get tothat?
And through the mother wound isjust such, you know, because
the country that we're from isour motherland as well.
And so, how you know, given thehistory and I recently did a
constellation why I'm veryinterested in this is, you know,
somebody was originally fromRussia and from the USSR.
(17:07):
You know, somebody wasoriginally from Russia and from
the USSR because they had somefamily from Kazakhstan and, you
know, from, you know, the, thegreater USSR, and I, I got
called into the constellation asthe Russia's sacrifice is the,
the cultural trauma of Russia'ssacrifice, and that that had to
be talked about in order toreconcile and connect, and
(17:27):
connect with the lineage.
And so I just um, I knowthere's a lot of stuff going on,
but you know just like what anopportunity for us to heal, to,
to create this, this work for,for profound healing yeah, I
think one of the lessons andgifts that come with having that
(17:47):
heritage, having that ancestry,is we have it in our blood.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
What happens when we deny the past and build from the
ground, like we've done it somany times?
Right, like no Tsar, noimperialism anymore, we'll go to
communism.
And then we did no communismanymore, we're going to
capitalism now and there's a lotof trauma that goes through
generation to generation now andit's kind of almost the same
(18:15):
way of breaking the past,building from the ground.
Breaking the past, buildingfrom the ground.
And now the seeing that, livingthat in the body, embodying
that.
I want to turn around, and Ithink a lot of us are turning
around and saying, rather thanrunning away from it, rather
than, like you said, turning toyour parents and like you guys
(18:37):
didn't know, would you be livingin fairy tales, you have your
trauma.
I don't have a trauma.
Instead, we can say thank you,thank you for living that.
Now your experience allowed meto see and building on top of
that with gratitude, I can takeit in, embody that and move
(19:04):
forward, not pretending that Idon't have trauma, but leaving
your trauma behind and takingwhat is for me to work with,
because that we have resourcesfor right.
I am resourced to walk my path.
What I'm not resourced with isto carry on your trauma.
That's overwhelming, that'soverpowering.
(19:27):
That's where that anger, thatdesperation comes in place.
When it's just so difficult andso hard, we feel so powerless.
Now we're trying to usesubstances to overcome it
instead of connecting to nature,connecting to the roots,
connecting and honoring, becausethere's a lot of beauty,
(19:47):
there's a lot of truth.
In my ancestry, in all of ourancestries, there's a lot of
rituals that are so connected tothe places we live in and when
I move and travel and I havebeen living in the US for many
years and that is an importantpart of my story, I got into my
(20:09):
adulthood in that country but Iwill always carry what's in me
from my ancestry and I can bowto it and take the strongest,
because there's a lot ofstrength in Russian history it
is a lot of this empowermentthat we come in with,
(20:29):
authenticity that we come with.
There's a lot of gifts each oneof us can give to the world and
if I own and bow to my ancestry, that will help me to
communicate, collaborate withpeople from Venezuela, people
from the US, people from Bali.
(20:50):
Maybe, right, bali is taking alot of people in right now, but
remembrance that we all comewith something and that
something is always in us.
It's not just left behind.
We can't run away.
I tried, I did run away.
I tried, I did my part.
I tried.
In my early 20s.
I ran away and there was nosmartphones back then, so I
(21:13):
didn't call.
I didn't want to go back.
For two years I didn't visit.
I hardly called my parents andthat was traumatic for them.
It was an adventure for me.
Now I'm realizing how traumaticit was to experience and now I
don't do that anymore.
I don't disappear anymore.
I'm there and I stand in that.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
And that's, you know, just the power of integration,
that you can be both right, youcan be all the above that we
were talking about earlier.
And you said something aboutaddiction that I know a lot of
people.
There's 12-step programs andthere's a lot of support out
there, but what have you learnedabout addiction and systemic
(21:58):
work and kind of its origins?
What has it shed light on?
Speaker 2 (22:05):
For me it was a lot of suppressed emotions in my
family system.
It was the, I think the in.
If you phrase it in onesentence, it was we must survive
.
We must survive.
I'm not allowed to feel that.
I cannot feel that because Ihave children.
(22:27):
I have to move forward.
And it was constant.
Like if we just take this lastthree generations right, we know
we carry more in our bodies,but if I just look in those
three generations, it was we hadto survive the war, win the war
, recover from the war, build anew regime, make sure it exists
and then spread it to the world.
(22:48):
And then again revolution,survive the revolution, build a
new way of living.
It was constant survival modeand there was constant.
I'm not allowed to feel allthose feelings Plus religion,
spirituality, whatever is yourway in this community, it is a
way to grieve.
(23:09):
We didn't have that, we didn'thave the socially appropriate
way of grieving, so we wouldjust keep it in.
We used traditionally,culturally, we used alcohol for
it.
We gather, we drink and then westart talking or singing Right
(23:30):
and through the music.
Music.
I feel like one of the waysthat became really deep and in
cultures that experience a lotof conflict, music is playing an
important role.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
It's something that allows us to pronounce what is
not allowed to be spoken yeah,yeah, there's, there's, um, you
know, if you were to, if I wereto describe russian art, it
would be beautifully painful,right in literature and music
(24:04):
and art.
It's just, there's such depthof pain but also beauty in it.
So I can completely see wherethose two things kind of come
together.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Yeah, my other side of the family is from Armenia.
My father is Armenian.
In Armenia they say they havethis instrument, duduk.
It's like a flute, but it'smade from the apricot tree.
They say that God gave duduk toArmenia so the people can cry
(24:38):
oh, wow right, so it's everytime it's.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
The tears of the nation are through this
instrument man and in so manyways that you know music is a
portal to collective right andcollective whatever.
That is happiness or pain orgrief, or you know sadness or
joy, or you know the music of apeople have just those
(25:02):
underlying.
You know systemic momentum, forlack of a better term that is
calling out what is trying to,what is trying to be.
But how do you see?
How do you see this, this worktransforming countries and
social systems?
I'm very curious for thatthat's a great question.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
That's that's a really great question and I'm
working very actively for it toreally take place in this, in
the organizational level, and Ibelieve that there's a lot of
trauma we can heal just from themother want.
And I know this is just thebeginning, but it's such an
important beginning Ourrelationship with our mothers,
(25:48):
our honoring of life-givingforce.
And we're talking about motherright.
We start biological mother, butthere's mother nature, right.
We saw many of us refer to thismother nature and honoring
Mother Nature.
How would that transform oursocieties?
(26:10):
How would that transform thecollective?
That's just one part of it, onelittle but very, very important
part of it.
A few years ago, I wrote a blogthat said how do we stop the
war?
And that's what I wrote about.
(26:31):
I wrote about the mother wound.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Yeah, that's our first connection right and we
know from systemic work howimportant the connection to
mother, the connection to source, you know that connection to
our lineage and how, because youknow mothers literally carry us
in their bodies right that, howmuch a disconnection and that
(26:57):
can repeat in the family systemand people don't really
understand what a mother woundis and they don't.
If you had to, you know, kindof put it in broad terms, what
would?
What would the mother woundlook like or show up in
somebody's life like?
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Well, I want to first name this when I say mother
wound and I, the unconditional,soul-deep connection, soul-deep
(27:44):
love between the mother and thechild.
That is just unbreakable andthe need of the child to have
mother love and the soul levelof the mother to give that love
to the child.
And I always say the soul level.
(28:06):
On a soul level, the parentalways wants the best for the
children and the capacity, whenit can be given on a human level
or whatever block that standsin between mother and child,
that's the wound, that's thepart that hides that love.
(28:29):
But that love is unbreakable,it's always going to be there.
There, in a little differentwords, is like, for example, if
we say what I did not receivefrom my mother, I demand from my
partner.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
That's a very good point.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Yeah, yeah, what I did not receive from my mother,
I may demand from my work, frommy job, even from my boss, from
my mother.
I may demand from my work, frommy job, even from my boss, from
my therapist.
How do we dictate to that?
We want, we crave it so much,we want to go and we want to
place our therapist, our boss,our manager, our partner onto
(29:12):
her place.
And then now they are the onesand we are demanding it together
.
In more mundane way, it could bepeople pleasing, yeah, it could
be rough inner dialogue.
It could be the same addictions.
It could be so many ways.
(29:35):
There are so many ways weexpress it through inability to
make money, inability to receivemoney right.
It's why, when it's like makemoney, it's like make is the
wrong word.
Receive money, receiveabundance in whatever way it
comes to us, because there isanger towards right.
I want to direct that youdidn't give me enough and then
(29:57):
will judge.
I think one of the biggestquotes that I use and I resonate
with a lot, when Bert Hellingersaid money, life and mother are
similar energies, the way wetreat our mother is the way life
(30:18):
treats us.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Hi, I'm John from the Zulu One podcast.
If you like what you're hearingand it resonates with you,
please consider becoming amonthly supporter.
The link is below Thanks, A lotof pop culture right now, or
pop psychology, is talking about, you know, narcissists and it's
like, oh, my mother was anarcissist or my father was a
narcissist and you know, one ofthe things that I talk to people
(30:40):
about when I'm facilitating isthat your mother, in the here
and now, you may have adifficult relationship with her.
You can bow to the metaconnected version of her right.
How do you navigate thatdynamic?
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Yeah, there's another quote from my teacher and I
think Bert also said somethingsimilar to it, but it was
whatever we judge, we reject,right.
So if I judge my mother, Ireject, life rejects me.
(31:17):
That's interesting circle.
Yes, we work when mother human,biological mother is not
available.
For this connection there's alot to work with going backwards
.
But we work with the soul and Ithink one of the ways that
(31:38):
people really get it regardlessif you have children or not,
biological children or not, yourjob is your baby.
Maybe you give in a differentway.
But if you have a child and youimagine, imagine the child is
suffering your trauma and theysubconsciously that's part of
(32:04):
the mother wound the bondbetween the child and the mother
is so strong that the childsubconsciously says I'll suffer
for you, I'll take in yourtrauma, as if that somehow would
take it away from you.
Imagine your child tells youI'll suffer for you.
What does it cost anybody?
(32:28):
Right, how heavy it feels?
It's immediately going intoplease, please don't, please
don't.
I'll take it, I'll handle it.
When we stand in the field, whenwe work with the constellations
, it is extremely painful togive your trauma to your child,
(32:52):
to consciously pass on thisheaviness to your child.
On this heaviness to your child, we find it every time the only
way.
When the soul of the motherdoes not give love to a child
and when she has the death wishshe wants to die in some way,
(33:13):
for whatever reason.
And the child is picking up onthat and subconsciously saying
I'm just like you.
Right, because the child's lovelove me because I'm just like
you.
So that love says I will wantto die too.
I will die for you, I'll diewith you, so you will love me.
(33:34):
That's the mother wound.
I love you so much, I'll diefor you.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
It's so interesting that you said you know people,
that you know even people thatdidn't have children, that our
product is our children as well,that our work or our businesses
or the projects that we'reinvolved with take on that same
energy in some way right, thatthey take on this repeated
pattern that is not only withyour children.
(34:04):
That is, everything that youproduce out of life, out of love
, will carry these burdens, outof loyalty.
Just such a you know, such aninteresting perspective and I
love how you put it so simply.
Such an interesting perspectiveand I love how you put it so
simply and so concisely forpeople.
(34:28):
And it's the first step, right,and I did some work with Mark
Wallen many years ago and he wasdoing a lot of work with the
mother wound and a lot of theconstellations were simply
somebody sitting in the chairand if there was a disconnection
from mom when they were young,it was simply mom getting closer
and getting closer and gettingcloser and then just connecting
(34:49):
and I was like it was just, itwas so quiet and so profound and
just recreating that connection.
Because you may not you may, youknow, ideally have a great
relationship with mom, right,but she got sick, or it was a
really difficult pregnancy andshe had to be separated from the
child.
For you know X, y, z, manyreasons, right, or you know
(35:12):
there could have been many, manystories that happened.
And just simply recognizingthat connection and
understanding your, you knowyour birth story, or if you were
adopted, or if you had toemigrate or had to, there was
war or there was conflict, oryou know something that was
going on, that how that patterncan manifest in your life over
(35:32):
and over, and over and overagain and over again.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Yeah, I think another very powerful healing and what
you shared is absolutely justquietly walking, and for so many
of us it's it's a verydifficult journey, step by step,
walking to mom, and there'sanother angle that may be
healing.
Healing, mom, I know you wouldgive me more love if you could,
(36:03):
if you received it from yourmother, opening yourself to that
.
If you could, I know I know youwould have.
I know that you had trauma.
It's easier said than done, likewe mentally understand.
(36:24):
We know that if there was aconflict it was an abuse.
We know that she wasn't happy,right, nobody abuses their
children when they're happy.
But, understanding it, peoplehave this tendency oh, forgive
her, I forgive her right.
And that's not the way ofhealing.
That's not how we do in familyconsultations.
In ancestral healing there's noforgiving your mother, right,
(36:48):
it's embracing and that littlephrase of just those words may
shift a little bit to create anopening, may shift a little bit
to create an opening and in thatopening we can work with more
embrace, more healing.
I know you would, I know youwould, if you could, I know you
(37:13):
would give it to me and byhonoring myself, I honor you.
By honoring myself.
I honor you by giving love tomyself.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
I honor your life story.
Yeah, that in your honor I willsucceed.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
In your honor, I will succeed.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
Yeah, definitely, that's absolutely, and bless me
if I choose to do it differently, right?
Please bless me if I choose todo it differently.
It's just such a profoundstatement of connection rather
than judgment, right and I andyou know that concept of
forgiveness.
I've talked about it in acouple podcasts.
It's like that concept offorgiveness like first you have
to judge and then absolve rightand forgiveness.
(37:52):
It's like we're no one toforgive.
That's between you and yourcreator, you know, rather than
it being.
You know this, this, thisrighteousness that comes with
with forgiveness.
You know?
Speaker 2 (38:03):
yeah, because I forgive right.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
I'm big enough to forgive what a great being I am
yeah, it's all ego, right, andyou know this work is just how
to right size is right size ego.
You know some people are like Iwant to kill the ego.
It's like no ego helps younavigate the world right, but
having an oversized one is whatgets you in trouble right and
(38:26):
and repeats those patterns.
And you know one thing that Ithat I learned early on is that
it's a.
It's a, it's an active ego tocarry things for our parents.
It's that you're the small oneand I'm the big one, so I will
carry this for you.
It's like oh.
When I heard that, I was like oh, man, that hit me pretty hard.
(38:51):
That one hit me pretty hardbecause I understood that it
only makes me the martyr and youknow the one that's carrying
this burden for the family.
You know that it gives mepurpose in some way that, rather
than saying like, the realassumption of responsibility is
that statement of in your honor,I will succeed To navigate the
(39:14):
unknown, to assume fullresponsibility of, of taking
your future into your own hands,with the support of your
ancestors, in your rightfulposition and there's this
bigness that comes with I'm.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
I'm healing, right like I'm, I'm the one who break
the chains, I am the one, likeyou guys couldn't, and I'm gonna
do it for you, right this?
And it comes with thisrightfulness, right Like it,
almost like you're speaking forthe whole ancestor, you're
speaking with all those you'representing, like you couldn't
take it for, just for your love.
(39:47):
It's difficult to express, totake in that self-love right and
care for this.
But if I'm standing with acrowd and I'm doing it for the
crowd of people, how right am I,how big.
And it takes bravery to givethat up, to be more humble and
say I'm just me, I'm the childof my parents, the grandchild of
(40:11):
my grandparents, and putyourself back into that.
When we are that big and wetalk to what should be equal to
us, our partners, and we feellike I am always right because I
have all this behind me, it'slike no, I'm, I'm humble.
I think that's maybe why somany spiritual teachings and
(40:32):
religions teach us to be humble.
To be humble, to come back intoyou're, the child of creation.
Take that place and it comeswith empowerment and in response
, we get the resources to walkour path.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
Yeah, so what do you see kind of the future of your
work looking like?
What does a couple of yearsdown the road look like?
Speaker 2 (41:01):
great question.
I really walk towards umworking with, uh business people
.
Like you said, when you, whenyou, when your project is your
child, right, then we, hopefullywe walk through the.
We know mother wound is alifelong journey, father wound
is a lifelong journey, butthere's more capacity opens up
(41:25):
when we step out of that victimand now we're the creator, right
.
But when, before you do thebusiness, if you have this
mother wound, if you have thisunsolved relationships, you're
going to, you're going to put iton your business right.
You're going to keep onbringing it in and demanding the
business or being angry atbusiness, or expecting the
(41:47):
business to be or keep failing,not being able to receive, not
being able to put the rightprice for the product, to open
yourself to that as well, tobring the impact.
And I feel that there's aripple effect that we can do.
I truly believe that it's veryempowering to walk the path of
entrepreneurship and experienceall because, right as as as we
(42:11):
do that it's every hiddendynamic all of a sudden is not
so hidden.
Yeah, exactly, it shows up rightthere You're taking on.
You're kind of like coming outof this stroller when the life
is almost like somebody else'skarma, somebody else's thing,
and now you're like, okay, okay,so making that step boom in the
(42:32):
face.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Yeah, here's your ancestry.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
Here's your block, here's your non-ability to
receive, non-ability to embraceright, here's where you're
stepping into victimhood.
Here's a dual I need with theperpetrator and it's kind of
like constantly goes tick-tockin your heart and creating the
whole structure.
And once we're able to put inour own destiny, our own ability
(43:01):
to choose right or maybedestiny is somebody associated
with, something is decided forme, but our ability to make a
choice while paying gratitudehow difficult, different the
businesses would be if everystep would make would turn
around and say thank you tothose who came before us, with
respect, with gratitude, andmove forward.
(43:23):
Not, I know better.
Oh, this is a new way, this isinnovating with like all you did
was wrong and now we're doingit.
Every time we walk right,Instead of thinking like they
didn't know, I know more now.
Thinking like they didn't know,I know more now, I know better
now, saying like, okay, thankyou, Because of you, because of
(43:46):
what I may consider as mistake,but hopefully not because of the
steps that you walked, I canjump on it and, rather than
chasing after the next new thing, new thing, new thing, denying
what was before, creating moreand more garbage right, More and
more destruction, in harmonyand move towards harmony, move
(44:14):
towards the cycles, working withthe cycles of nature, working
in collaboration, realizingright in modern nature.
Back to the same thing.
I cannot work without havingthat behind my shoulders all the
time.
That is part of what I considerwith every move that I make.
(44:34):
It's not and, if I want, it'snot chasing the money, getting
more money.
It's opening to receiving theabundance coming in.
It's a different way ofbuilding your business, and I
truly believe that business andfamily are not two different
things.
They're the same thing.
Right, we're coming within that, and if I'm creating business
(44:55):
but I'm ashamed to tell mychildren about it, I'm maybe not
doing the things I want tocreate.
And if it creates more wastethan the product and if there's
no way of circling in, that isnot sustainable.
That is not the way I'mhonoring.
(45:15):
What I'm working towards isthis synchronous, harmonious
co-creation, and for that thefirst step is stepping into
creator, out of the victim intothe creator, and then, the more
we have, the more we're able tocreate organizations that will
(45:35):
work from that in mind.
My background istransformational travel.
That's where I come from.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
So for me, that's been on my radar for a while and
choosing the way of coming backand bringing knowledge and
wisdom, rather than escaping andliving the destruction and
coming back with just Ooh.
Okay, I relax for a little bitNow I can continue the chase,
continue, continue this.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
That is, that is the the intention.
I want to say the goal, butthat's not the goal I'm living
in.
So that's the intention ofspreading that more of that.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
Yeah, I love you know so I'm.
I'm big into family and tosystems, right, and so that's
the intention of spreading thatmore of that.
The conversation transformswhen I'm talking to facilitators
from family, which is verytender, very soft, and then you
start in on the system side.
It's like let's get to work.
You know we got these thingsand like you can really, you
(46:44):
know, get into the gears and themechanisms that propel
businesses towards connectionand it's just such a, it's such
a such an effective way ofmanaging an organization is you
can really look at it and havethe tenderness of family
constellations but with theeffectiveness of of systemic
constellations is such a such acool way.
(47:05):
I wish everybody did this.
You know that there waseducational platforms all over
the world that was saying, hey,you can do this with governments
, you can do this withbusinesses, you can do this with
non-for-profits, you can dothis with, and imagine the world
that we would create if weconstantly integrated systemic
consolation principles intoeverything that we did.
So, man, I love that you'refocused on that side.
(47:28):
That's what I love aboutsystemic consolations is you can
really apply it to become aforce multiplier for connection
rather than destruction.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
Yeah, yeah, there are some schools there, right,
there are a few schools in theworld who work using systemic
installation and it's beautifuland I wish more and more of that
come to the world.
And children are definitelybeautiful creatures to work with
using systemic installationsand there's business and I think
part of it beautiful creaturesto work with using systemic
installations, and there'sbusiness and I think part of it.
It's also a little bit ofexperience coming from those um
(48:02):
spiritual communities, right, um, living, being in it.
There is wound around money aswell.
There's this wounded healer,right.
So it's almost we just comingout of that um stage when money
was forbidden, like sex andmoney are not spiritual, and we
just started like actually, no,actually there's a lot of
(48:25):
spirituality and spiritual powerand empowerment in both of this
.
And receiving and woundedhealer like not doing the work
for free, giving it for free,not being able to live
sustainably and doing somethingyou hate and doing that as a
hobby.
Is that the way you want thecommunities to be built?
Is that how we have thetechnology?
(48:47):
We have so much already spreadthat we're able to leverage that
work to create the communitiesthat they build around it, to
bring back the value of gentleand efficient right.
It doesn't have to be either or, like you said, we can do both.
It's that union, thatnon-duality, that dance of
feminine and masculine that gowithin, that don't have to
(49:09):
choose that one dependent andother way interdependent.
We now know that.
We have the science got to it.
We no longer have that conflictbetween science and
spirituality.
They're so close, they're somerging together, and we have
the technology to allow us tospread it, to ripple it with
such efficiency.
(49:30):
So what if we marry all that,what if we bring that all
together?
What kind of world will that be?
Speaker 1 (49:56):
looming thing over our heads with.
You know, ai, that's coming in,and you know I've said this a
couple times already but I thinkthe next phase is that
integration, that exactintegration that you're talking
about, that there's a darkmatter, morphic resonance,
whatever you want to callsystemic entanglement, whatever
you want to call that that thingthat connects, connects all
pieces of a system that we'regoing to just we're at the
precipice of discovering thatand that we can actually work on
(50:18):
it, that there's a way toeffectively heal it connected,
unentangle it and create systemsthat have incredible momentum.
That what's the differencebetween a business that you
would say that is, you know whatpeople would can eventually
call evil and a business that istruly connected, or that that
treats their employees right andbirds of a feather flock
(50:40):
together and they all come to tocreate this, this um place
where it it fosters connectionand abundance and momentum,
rather than disconnection andrepeating the old destruction
that you were talking aboutbefore.
Speaker 2 (50:55):
Yeah, and I think the part that needs to be worked on
the most is that permission,and that's part of the
mother-wanted self.
I had permission for that toemerge, permission for that to
happen, permission to walktowards, permission to not plug
(51:18):
into the victim-perpetrator, notplug into the anger, into the
conflict, permission to stand inyour inner truth, permission to
be and not resist, not reject.
We have technology is also areally interesting topic, right,
and I'm going to speak to thata little bit and I want to speak
on why I chose familyconstellations specifically
(51:41):
after trying so many.
Technology is part where we'reeither addicted to it or we
resist it, reject it.
It's very rare when somebodygoes in and is like, yes, I have
a very harmonious relationship,I use it for my business, but I
know as soon as I'm done, I putit down and I went and I
disconnected.
(52:02):
I'm lucky.
Some lucky of us have thatrelationship, but for the most
of us, either I'm constantly init or I'm afraid of it.
I have fear, especiallyartificial intelligence, right.
I don't want to deal.
It scares me, it's just, it'swrong way for the humanity to
develop.
I'm going to completelydisconnect and just pretend it
(52:24):
doesn't exist.
I wish neither one of thosefields are obvious.
Neither one of us moves usforward.
And another part is when workingwith energy.
So meditation, it takes time,it takes opening, it takes
structure.
It's a lot of spiritualityspecifically received by that.
Some of that we know.
(52:45):
Ayahuasca, the other medicine,it takes bravery to walk into
that.
Family constellations is one ofthe very few modalities in
which you don't need anything,any prerequisite, to walk into
and it's so undeniable when youhave other people reflect.
You don't talk stories, right,we don't tell that happened and
(53:07):
then that happened and then thathappened.
No, you just open the space,you give that permission in
simple words and simpleintention, and you see and you
resonate and you feel right.
You know the beauty of it yeahand it's undeniable it's
undeniable.
Speaker 1 (53:27):
It's undeniable, it's just, it's.
It's truer than true.
It's like seeing it's.
It's like it's.
It's at night.
It's undeniable that it's darkout and it's undeniable that
it's light out when you see thepattern where the system emerged
in the constellation, it'struer than true.
It's the base of reality.
Speaker 2 (53:47):
It seems like yeah, and you don't need the guru to
tell you that you don't need theteaching to that, you just need
to show up and that's it.
You that you don't need theteaching to that, you just need
to show up and that's it.
And I feel so much power inthat mentality because of it,
because if we just show, when weshow, it's so out there that
you can feel it and through youyou can bring it to others.
(54:10):
Right, and we have this, it'sso.
I'm obsessed with it.
Honestly, just talking aboutbeing with it, stepping into it,
it's the.
My whole walk is like peoplecry it, that's it.
I don't need to convince you, Idon't need to tell you how it
is or what it, what would andwhat you will feel it.
(54:30):
You feel it and that's enough.
And that's your, your wisdom,that comes from within you.
Nobody else is needed.
There's no church you have togo and listen to.
There's nothing else that youneed to happen.
There's no substance you needto take.
There's no shaman that needs tojump around you.
None of that is necessary.
You can sing, you can speak,you can use sage.
(54:53):
You can use other tools, butthey're optional.
Everything else that you needis already here.
Speaker 1 (54:59):
Yeah, yeah, and I tell a lot of people it's like
it's not multi-level marketing.
You don't have to join a club,you don't have to get to
different levels, you don't haveto join a religion, you don't
have to join a cult, you don'thave to join anything.
You can do one and becompletely done with it, or do
it you know and understand thework and use it as a modality
through your life.
It's doesn't, it's like karateor yoga, it's like it's.
(55:21):
It's just a practice and you,you use it as a methodology to
figure some stuff out, and thenyou don't, and if anybody tells
you otherwise, turn around andrun away because they're using
it for nefarious reasons.
And that's what I and you're soright, that's why I'm so.
I think obsessed is the rightword.
Right Is that I'm so dedicatedto this work?
Because it doesn't.
(55:42):
You know, you don't have to,there's no convincing.
You just have to see it and itwill be a thing and you'll be on
the other side of the chasm.
And then you kind of see theforest for the trees and you see
the patterns and you startbeing like, oh, why am I
entangled in this dynamic?
What, what learned?
What lesson have I not learnedbefore that I need to deal with
(56:03):
now and work through and figureout how to give this back to
where it actually belongs.
That's it just so beautiful,you know.
It's so beautifully elegant.
Speaker 2 (56:13):
And it incorporates the ego as a friend, not as
something to remove or break orkill.
So integrational, I love that.
I think the word would bedevoted.
I'm devoted to this work.
I'm devoted.
When I first came across thatit blew my mind really.
(56:34):
It was like why don't we teachit in schools?
Why don't we tell everyonethat's what it is?
How is it not a commonknowledge?
And then I got into gratitudethat I'm living in times when we
are on the edge of that andit's up to us to spread it.
(56:55):
It yeah they just don't have topick it up.
I can.
I can be the one among the oneswho shine the light inside here
.
Speaker 1 (57:02):
If you want it, it's here and the, the systemic
resistance factor from asystemic constellations
perspective is really, reallyinteresting.
You see, you know people thatare like, hey, I'm gonna go do a
constellation.
And then you know they had aflat tire and their dog got sick
and the dog threw up all overthe place.
Or you know their kid somethinghappened with the child.
(57:23):
Or you know they woke up late.
Or you know, whatever lifethrows at you to keep the system
the same, and people, it givesthem great excuses.
You know it's like, oh, my momcalled and she was sick, and
then like all the everybody willplay their part in the system
to keep it the same.
And the same thing withbusiness is like, oh, there'll
be an emergency and there'll bea thing.
And they're like every lifewill throw you all the exclusive
(57:46):
, all the excuses to keep, andthat, that, that systemic
resistance, is the clue of thepower of the system, of the.
You know how entrenched thatdynamic is in the field.
Right, it's like just like, ah,that's why I need to do this
work.
Speaker 2 (58:02):
It's interesting, you brought it up.
I was talking to my sisterrecently and I was trying to
convince her like no, it wasn'tthe first time, like multiple
times she was telling me aboutthe issue with her health, with
her joints, and I was talking toher and it's like why did you
try it?
Why didn't you go?
And it's like always her answeris no, no, no, I don't need it,
(58:23):
it's not, that's not for me, I,I don't know, I, that's not,
I'm not gonna go.
And then the final is like,okay, I really want to
understand, tell me why not, whywouldn't you go to that?
And that's what?
What do you call it Systemic?
Yes, you have it.
And there's also mentalresistance, right.
And she told me things like oh,I get it.
She said I know I'm not, I knowwhat is wrong, I know that I
(58:49):
need to change my job, I'm doingthe thing that I don't like, I
know that this, my marriage, isprobably not right for me
anymore and I'm afraid it willshow me that and I will have no
excuses not to change oh, thatis, that is profound right and
(59:12):
it's funny thing and I rememberI was contemplating in it and I
came up with this, but the thethe thought came with how
success stops us from healing,from truly enjoying our life.
we see all successful inspecific way, like I have a, I
(59:33):
cannot.
I'm successful in my marriage.
I cannot give it up.
Or I have this job.
It's comfortable, it's secure,it gives me money, it's.
I don't want to give it up.
I know if I go into onto thishealing path it will.
It will take it away from me.
Wow, and I really wanted tobring that.
Part of you have a choice.
We have a choice.
We have a choice.
There's this secondary benefit,right, Every disease has a
(59:57):
secondary benefit.
If we have it, some part of uswants it.
And there's a dialogue, right.
This is the power of our humanbeings, the creative power of I
can choose in which way, in howdo I satisfy the deep craving,
the deep need that I have?
(01:00:18):
I can choose.
I can choose to still go onwith that disease if I want to.
People have cancers realize thatthat's about the not
forgiveness that they experienceand they still choose cancer.
We have the right to choose.
We are the creators.
But you're no longer in thevictim of it.
(01:00:39):
You're no longer the victim ofcancer, You're no longer the
victim of disease.
You're the one who chose it.
So if you choose that, it'syour right.
You may choose otherwise.
You may give up your job inexchange for something unknown.
Yes, it takes bravery.
Yes, it's difficult.
(01:00:59):
Yes, there's a specific energyinput right that's required to
jump from that to overcome thatsystemic resistance.
There is a free will.
We have that.
Speaker 1 (01:01:14):
We are the great humans.
Yeah, we have that.
We are the great humans.
Yeah, I think it was.
I think you posted a short thatwas the opposite of victim is
creator and that just resonatedwith me so much.
It's like the opposite ofvictim isn't perpetrator, the
opposite of a victim is thecreator.
Right, it's like really to lookat it from that and it's just
(01:01:36):
like, like you and you said thata couple of times and I'm like
it's you're, you're so right,you know, the opposite of the
victim is the creator, is the,the.
The creator steps inresponsibility, right, and and
you know Michelle Blechner talksabout this a lot and I love her
how she talks about words asresponsibility is the ability to
respond, not to be stuck in thetrauma, right in the unresolved
(01:01:59):
trauma, and that's like ah man,what, oh?
That.
That really puts things inperspective.
To say the opposite of a victimis a creator, you know, gives
you the authority, the to the,you know the authoring of your
life, rather than being somebody, that things just simply happen
to, life just simply happens to.
Speaker 2 (01:02:19):
Yeah.
And then just in this simpleinvitation right to go.
What if it's not necessarilythis is what it is?
What if?
Is it beneficial for you toadapt and believe?
And if it is not?
If it is beneficial, why don'tyou?
Why don't you try that likeinviting people to that?
What if you step at the creator?
(01:02:41):
What if life happens for you,always, always?
How does your life change thatlittle shift?
Speaker 1 (01:02:50):
wow, because that this has has been an incredible
conversation and I think that'sa great place to wrap it up.
I'd love to have you back.
If people want to get a hold ofyou, how do they do that?
Speaker 2 (01:03:04):
Yeah, oh, facebook is the easiest way.
Probably.
Vika D Chan is where they canfind me.
My website is ancestral-alchemy.
That's maybe also easy, but I'mopen for conversations.
If you find me on Facebook,please connect and I would love
to chat.
And thank you so much, john,for inviting.
Speaker 1 (01:03:26):
Mika, thank you so much.
This has been beautiful, verymuch appreciated, and love the
systemic work and love whatyou're doing.
So if you ever need support orif you ever want to come back
and talk about something you'redoing, so if you ever need
support or if you ever want tocome back and talk about
something you're doing, we'dlove to have you.
Speaker 2 (01:03:38):
Yeah, very grateful for your podcast and spreading
the knowledge rippling thehealing through all the world.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (01:03:44):
The least that I can do, thank you.
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