June 30, 2025 • 59 mins
Dr. Dan Cohen, co-founder of Seeing with Your Heart alongside Emily Blefeld, is a renowned figure in the realm of therapeutic practice, specializing in the inclusion of personal, ancestral, and spiritual consciousness. With a vast understanding of global history, mythology, and culture complementing his psychic abilities, he utilizes Constellations to alleviate individuals, couples, and families from the inherited burdens of various traumas and pave a path for healing and spiritual renewal. Also recognized internationally for proposing solutions against violent human tendencies, Dr. Cohen transitioned from strategic weapons research to peace and holistic wellness initiatives. He obtained his PhD in psychology from Saybrook University and an MBA from Boston University. The author of "I Carry Your Heart in My Heart: Family Constellations in Prison" and various scholarly articles, he and Emily have conducted workshops and training in 18 countries. Together, they are gearing up for a unique 12-day Constellations retreat this May in KwaZulu Natal, South Africa.
Find more from Dan:
Seeing with Your Heart: https://seeingwithyourheart.com/
Article in Progress in Biophysics and Molecular Biology: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0079610723001013
I Carry Your Heart in My Heart: https://a.co/d/6aGhpFz
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seeingwithyourheart/
Support the ZuluOne Podcast: https://www.buzzsprout.com/892585/support
Find more from us:
Website: https://www.zuluone.org/
Substack: https://johnacosta.substack.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/zuluonepodcast/?hl=en
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the podcast.
Today, I'm joined by Dr DanCohen, a leader in family
constellations and ancestralhealing.
We discuss his work in prisons,the power of constellations and
how AI could shape healing.
We also explore alchemy andtransformation and what it takes
to break free from inheritedburdens.
If you're curious about howhidden forces shape your life,
(00:21):
this episode's for you.
Thank you, Dan.
How are you?
Good, Great.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Good to see you.
Yeah, glad to see you, and tohave this time together is
really special.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Thank you, thank you, thank you, and you know very
quietly in the background,you've had a huge influence in
how I look at constellations.
So I want to start off withgratitude to say thank you.
Sophie Sudai, my dear friendwould always talk about the work
(01:08):
that you've done and thedifferent modalities that you've
done, and always been just asfascinated by how profound this
work is and your backgroundbeing very technical and then
getting into the consolationworld.
So tell me a little bit abouthow that journey started.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Yeah it's.
You know I'm old so it gets tobe a longer and longer story.
I'll try to minimize it alittle bit.
I grew up in New York Cityduring the civil rights movement
and then the black powermovement.
I went to middle school andhigh school in Harlem, so this
(01:51):
activism was really close.
And the school that I went towas a progressive private school
in Manhattan, small, raciallydiverse in a lot of different
ways, racially diverse in a lotof different ways, and they
really put a lot of emphasis onmaking the world a better place.
(02:12):
Just change the world in yourlittle corner of it.
And when I got into my 20s I wasmoving around a little bit and
I took a class at NorthwesternUniversity with a professor who
had done her dissertation onIsaac Newton's alchemy.
(02:33):
She was only one of twoacademics in the world who had
really seen the alchemicalpapers.
They had been hidden forcenturies, the alchemical papers
.
They had been hidden forcenturies and it's an
interesting story but I won't gointo the details.
But she was a high schoolscience teacher in Arkansas, in
(02:54):
her hometown, and she ended upat Cambridge University to do a
dissertation on the history ofscience and she was given these
alchemical papers and invited togo into the data and write a
dissertation.
And what she discovered wasthat the modern scientific
(03:16):
worldview which I had grown upon, the materialism, secular
humanism, the physicalism, thesecular humanism, the
physicalism the belief thathumans used to think that the
Earth was at the center of theuniverse and the planets and the
stars and the sun, everythingorbited around the Earth and the
(03:37):
Earth had been created by Godand man had been put on Earth
and then women as a kind ofhelper, and this was the
universe.
It existed in this celestialsphere.
And then science came along inthe 1600s and blew the whole
thing up and discovered throughobservation and mathematics that
(04:00):
the Earth, that the sun was atthe center, everything orbited
around the sun, and that theEarth was just the sun was at
the center, everything orbitedaround the sun, and that the
Earth went from the center ofthe universe to just like a
pebble in the vast emptiness andit made our lives empty as well
.
That this huge existentialdilemma of the modern time is
(04:26):
the way that this scientificshift changed us from feeling
ourselves at the center of theuniverse to basically nothing,
to just an accidental collectionof chemicals that with no
meaning or purpose, just throughblind chance, just happened to
come together, just somehow.
(04:46):
What she taught from Newton'swork is that, basically, there
was no science behind theworldview.
There was behind the solarsystem, but the principle that
came from it that the universeis empty and meaningless and
that everything can be explainedin terms of physical forces and
(05:12):
these laws of physics, thatthat was unscientific, that it
existed.
It was created by the Englishcrown and the global
corporations, the first globalcorporation, which was the
British East India Company.
(05:33):
They needed an amoral theologyto replace Christianity, which
put limits on what you could do,replace Christianity, which put
limits on what you could do,and in the pursuit of wealth and
(05:54):
empire.
In pursuit of wealth and empire, they created a theology that
allowed unlimited amounts ofenslavement and exploitation and
extraction, and then they soldthe scientific worldview that
went along with it.
But what she taught was that itwas not scientific and that the
(06:17):
science actually showed thatthe universe is filled with
consciousness and thatconsciousness comes first.
It's the primary mover, is notmatter and energy creating
consciousness, which is themodern view.
(06:37):
It's consciousness creatingenergy and matter.
Oh, wow energy and matter, ohwow.
And that that science is moregrounded in the experimentation,
in the data, than thematerialist worldview, which has
(06:58):
basically never been confirmed.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
So rather than being heliocentric, it is almost
consciousness centric.
That is, like the consciousnessis the base of reality that
holds the universe together.
Am I understanding thatcorrectly?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Right, if you look at the latest like kind of maps of
this of the solar system.
It's not what we were shown inschool which is kind of you know
, used to do those styrofoamballs and the sun hanging and
you put the planets, you knowthe sun itself is moving, it's
flying at like you know billionsof whatever miles you know per
(07:39):
second.
It is hurtling through space anddragging the planets along with
it which are spinning around it.
There is no kind of fixedheliocentric solar system the
way we think of it, and that,yes, it is all.
Everything that happens startswith the non-physical.
(08:01):
It starts with consciousness,okay, and the consciousness
creates energy and then matter,and there's a continuum that
consciousness is the most light,it slows down into energy and
then it slows down more intomatter.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Oh, wow, jeez, that's humongous.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Right, and this is confirmed in quantum theory.
So the quantum experiments ofthe 1920s demonstrated this,
that consciousness comes first.
And the founders of quantumtheory Max Planck, david Bohm,
(08:48):
et cetera recognize this.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Yeah, the David Bohm stuff is so fascinating, it's so
fascinating.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
It's the.
It is the same as what I'msaying.
I could say it in his language,but this is his work as well.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
So I spent my 20s and my 30s and most of my 40s on
kind of a mission to solve thesecond half of the alchemical
mystery.
The first half how to transformmatter, how to turn lead into
(09:31):
gold also comes from quantumtheory and it is essentially
nuclear.
Fission is a transformation ofmatter.
You could write how to changelead into gold on a blackboard
with a mathematical formula, butwhat we have done with it is
(09:52):
we've weaponized it, because theother half of the alchemical
mystery, the kind of thefeminine half, the non-physical
part, was left to atrophy fourcenturies ago.
And so I took on to try to be ascientist of the heart, to look
(10:14):
for how to createtransformation in the heart, and
I did that for about 25 years,and after 25 years I came to a
place where I realized there wasa tool missing, that what I had
to work with wasn't going toget us as a species or myself,
(10:39):
on this mission where I wantedto go.
I'd kind of run out in terms ofall the different tools of
psychology and spirituality even, and religion and politics, all
those things.
They weren't really gettingthere, and so I had the
opportunity to stop working.
(11:00):
I had an engineering companythat I had owned and operated
for 18 years and my partner andI sold it to a gas utility.
So I got a little bit of moneyfrom the sale, enough that I
didn't have to get another jobimmediately.
And so I went looking for themissing tool and I devoted
(11:21):
myself to finding the missingtool.
I knew it was out theresomewhere.
I assumed it was out theresomewhere, but I didn't know
what it was and where I wouldfind it.
But I saw a flyer for a FamilyConstellations event in South
Dakota.
I was living in Boston.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
In South.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Dakota, south Dakota, in Rapid City, wow, at the end
of November in 2000.
And I saw that and I thoughtthis looks like what I'm looking
for.
Just from reading thedescription I thought to myself
this looks like it.
So I flew out there, Iregistered for it and I flew
from Boston to Rapid City in themiddle, you know, the end of
(11:59):
almost the beginning of winter.
Oh my gosh, to do this threeday with Heinz Stark, who I
don't know if that's a name youknow, yes, yes, yes.
And when I saw his work thefirst day, I thought, okay, this
looks like it, but I'm NewYorker, so it's always.
Everything's met with a lot ofskepticism.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
It makes sense.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
It makes sense, but I wanted to pursue it.
So I found out Bert Hellingerwas doing a seven-day event in
English in Germany that springand then Susie Tucker and Bert
Hellinger were doing a trainingin New York City.
That started later that yearand I signed up for those.
(12:42):
And then I also went tograduate school.
I got a PhD in psychology,started that because I wanted to
have some background.
But I thought, okay, this iswhat I'm going to be doing and
that was uh.
That was the opening, uh, 25years ago now, to uh my work as
a uh family constellationfacilitator.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
That's incredible.
And so how you know, I knowwhen you get into the
consolation world it's likefirst you start, you know,
attending consolations and thenmaybe co-facilitating some
consolations or being used as arepresentative in many places.
How long did it take you totransform into that facilitator
role and really lead theconstellations?
Speaker 2 (13:26):
It was about three years of training.
I did the training I did withBert and Susie.
That was a year and then, youknow, bert was coming back every
year and there were a lot ofother Germans that were coming
and I went to Germany a coupleof times to some other
conferences and then graduallystarted looking for
(13:51):
opportunities.
It's actually how I starteddoing work in prison, because
there weren't clients and nobodyhad ever heard of a
constellation.
And then when you explain it tothem, they really don't want to
do it, much less interestedonce they know what it is, the
systemic resistance wall goesstraight up and they're like,
yeah, nope, I don't want totouch that.
(14:12):
Right, totally yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Yeah, no, and, and you know, I, I recently this was
.
This is a very embarrassingstory for me, but I was with my
wife and we're on, we're on aplane and I had picked up your
book and I had your book on myshelf for a little while and I'm
like, and Sophie, sophie Sudai,our dear friend, was saying you
know, you should read this, youreally should read this book,
(14:36):
because I'm on the flight andthank God I'm like on the window
aisle so my wife could shieldme a bit, but I'm sobbing on the
plane as I'm reading and I'll,man, I'll get so emotional now,
but just um, just the depth ofhumanity, you know, just, uh,
(14:58):
really yeah, just the depth of,of the human spirit, you know,
and the arc of the human spirit,and there's a line about being
in some way and I'm paraphrasinghere, but being in the depths
of this prison that creatingthis incredibly sacred place.
It really touched me to see theresilience of the human spirit,
(15:25):
that you can create thisincredible modality in some of
the most horrific environments.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Right, it was the men who were in that environment,
living in that in my circle, hadcommitted themselves to take a
spiritual path and had been formany years by the time I met
them, and so they were reallyready for this, to do this work.
And to you know, we work withthe victim perpetrator bond,
(16:13):
which was not available for themwith the other, you know
there's a lot of volunteers thatgo in.
Yeah, they're still with me.
They closed the prison.
Oh, it's been a while, it'sbeen over 10 years.
The prison closed and the menwere all distributed to other
facilities and I made someattempts to try to transfer to
(16:34):
other facilities, but it's inthe environment.
I had to go through a wholevetting process and it just
didn't work out.
So I've been out of that, um,that role.
I would, if they they werestill there, I'd still be going
in.
I mean, I wouldn't have stoppedit's beautiful yeah, uh, but it
um, after they closed the prison, I didn't have a way, but they
(16:57):
energetically and and then,through consciousness, there's
they, uh, still with me andthey're with me in some of the
you know the really tough spotswhen I'm with working with a
client who it just seemshopeless, you know the worst
they come and they stand behindme.
(17:18):
Or, if I'm feeling, there wasone time where I can't remember
the details of it, but I wasworking with someone and the
issue they presented was so thesituation was horrific and their
resources were so limited, andthey kind of looked at me like,
(17:39):
how are you going to help me?
Like everyone has.
Everyone who's ever touched thishas failed, myself included as
a client.
No one's ever been able to doanything good with this.
It's just been one after theother.
And they looked at me and Ifelt really humbled and I was
(18:06):
like, well, what makes you thinkI'm going to be able to do
something in the face of theenormity of this loss and the
destruction?
And this is when I felt the menbehind me a couple of them who
had passed away came in verydistinctly and they were, you
(18:28):
know.
Their message was well, likeyou're not here to be one more
person that fails.
You know that's all they've had.
You know you're in thissituation that somebody come and
do something good, Somebodycome and do something that makes
a difference, and that's whatyou're here for.
(18:48):
What a gift and I just felttheir support and it was.
You did a beautiful piece ofwork, and not about me as a
facilitator, but just workingwith the field and bringing in
the resources of ancestors andspirit to be able to come in
with support and just hold acontainer for what was possible.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Yeah, and that very much, you know, parallels my
experience a bit.
I'm working with anorganization called the Circle
of Brotherhood here in Miami andit's just like some of the most
incredible human beings thatI've ever witnessed, that have
spent, you know, multi-decadesin in the prison system and,
despite all the efforts of thesystem to maintain the, the
(19:37):
patterns of pain, they've comeout victorious on the other side
.
You know, and and throughdifferent healing modalities
that they've found themselves isand just and just you know, the
transformation, in face of theodds of these systems that are
designed to perpetuate thevictim-perpetrator narrative or
(20:00):
the victim-perpetrator dynamic.
So, you know, when I saw yourbook and I started reading, I
was just like my mind just wascontinuously blown.
And you and I had aconversation when I started
doing this work and you werelike it was, you know,
paraphrasing here, but you yousaid something of a nature of
like it's the most rewardingwork that I've ever done, you
know, and I was just, I was sohumbled because I knew that
(20:21):
that's the journey that I was,that was that I was on, and you
just really start seeing.
You start seeing you knowcommunities as systems and when
you start putting certaincommunities.
In certain systems you startsaying, oh well, there's been a
victim perpetrator dynamic goingon for 600 generations, for a
thousand generations.
(20:42):
That is like continuallyperpetuating the patterns of
pain.
The culture is almostsolidified into maintaining
those structures.
So how, you know, how did younavigate?
And it almost seems I'm askinga couple of questions here.
But you know, I always see,when you go into, like what I,
what I just saw, what I heardyou say, is that you know, there
(21:05):
was like an opening in thesystem, like you went in, did a
bunch of work and then thesystem closed it out because it
knew it was going to be changing.
And you almost like, inoculatethe system with healing and the
echoes of that will turn intoGod knows what.
Right, I mean, one of the signsmight have been that this
prison itself shut down becausethere was already so much
(21:25):
systemic reverberationthroughout it.
Right that?
they had to shut it down because, because it doesn't work
anymore or whatever, forwhatever reason.
So I'm just always fascinatedabout the, the echoing of
healing throughout systems, andif you've noticed kind of the
same pattern in that, in that,in that way, by using our bodies
(21:48):
as instruments that connect tothis universal field of
consciousness.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
So there's, you know, 600 or 1,000 generations, yes,
of this kind of war-like,destructive quality, but there's
actually 7,000 generationsbehind those 1,000 generations,
(22:17):
because the 1,000 generationsare about 30,000 years and
there's 200,000 years behindthat of evolution of our.
Our bodies have evolved and ourbodies evolved with this
incredible resonance andcapacity to interact with the
(22:41):
consciousness of the universe,and a lot of that, culturally,
has been extracted from us, butevolution has maintained it.
It's in our bodies.
So when we are able to retrainour bodies to be able to
(23:04):
interact with the universalconsciousness field and do it in
a way that we're not creating anew religion, we're not, you
know, writing it all down andthen you know presenting it as
the new truth, but teachingpeople that every time you do it
(23:24):
, the message is just for you inthat moment and the next time
it's going to be a differentmessage and everybody gets a
different message.
It's just using evolution'scapacity in our body to be able
(23:47):
to interact consciously withawareness, because our cells are
doing it all the time.
Our cells are quantum machinesthat are drawing this
information from the universalconsciousness field, but our
culture, language and narrativesall say that it doesn't exist.
(24:10):
Narratives all say that itdoesn't exist.
And if it does exist, it was.
You know, somebody figured itout a thousand years ago or 2000
years ago or 3000 years ago andwrote it down, and then it's
degraded since then.
You know, the ultimate truthexisted sometime in the past, in
this book with these teachings,and you can only receive it by
(24:36):
kind of going back into thattradition and then you can try
to, you know, revitalize some ofit.
That could be useful for you.
But my work is evolutionary.
It's mystical and it'sevolutionary that this is what
is going to happen in the nextthousand generations of humanity
(24:58):
yeah, develop our capacity tointeract with awareness, with
the universal energy field andinformation field, and be able
(25:19):
to live accordingly.
And it's transformational.
This is the transformation andthe heart is the organ of
transformation in the body,where we can start to digest and
process these old traumas andturn them into nourishment for a
future.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Yeah, yeah, that's.
You know.
What comes to mind right now iskind of this advent of AI,
right, Everybody's talking about.
AI and how machine learning isworking.
And you know what?
I'm so encouraged by this factthat what may happen is that AI
shows us how much dark matterthere actually is, which is this
(26:01):
universal morphogeneticconsciousness, whatever you want
to call the thing that we'veall called it the Holy Spirit,
the universe, mickey Mouse, thisthing that connects us all,
that the equation will bepresented in such a way that,
like, there is a dark matterhere that we haven't attested
for, and I think in some waydark matter may be that
(26:22):
consciousness that holdseverything together and that
will get to a point where thetechnology catches up with the
spirituality in some way,because it makes no sense that
the thing, the phenomenon thathappens in a constellation
happens from modern standardsRight, that you can say we can
do constellations on Zoom andsomebody is representing the
(26:43):
person's mother immediately,3000 miles away or however you
know, whatever the distance is,and immediately starts weeping
because the mother lost a childthat she didn't know about or
whatever that is, and so it'snot bound by time, space and
this reality that, on a regularbasis and in a repeatable,
measurable, trainable fashion,we can connect to this in
(27:05):
knowing field.
And there's so much, there'sinformation that you would never
know about it.
So I'm fascinated about whatthe future of technology and how
it's going to connect with thismodality, is going to look like
in the future.
And thank you for standing onthe shoulders of giants and
thank you for being one of thosegiants, because it's very
(27:27):
fascinating to be doing thismodality at this time with you
know, with all the past and andthe incredible teachers that
we've had and putting thattogether, it's been, it's been,
it's been really fascinating.
So tell me a little bit aboutyou know um, the alchemical
constellations, and I I had theum.
(27:47):
I had the privilege toexperience.
You facilitated a constellationwith for me back in November
and it was extraordinarilypowerful.
I always like to go tofacilitators that I don't
personally know very wellbecause it's you know, you
always get a clear channel rightor a clear, clean slate.
So I just jumped on theopportunity and I just wanted to
(28:08):
say thank you, but tell me alittle bit about how you came up
and developed that modality.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
I want to, um, let me just.
Can I loop back to AI for amoment?
Yeah, sure, uh, I want to get,I want to answer that, but you,
you, you.
You spoke about AI and I have,um, there's an aspect to it.
So, ai, we'll get to the pointthat you're describing, but
before it gets there, there's away that the game is rigged, and
(28:39):
it won't get there as long asthe game remains rigged.
In AI, there is an assumptionthat human consciousness is
created by the brain and thatthe silicon chips are
(29:00):
reproducing what the neuralnetworks in the brain do and
that they can do it better thanthe brain.
And so there's an assumptionbuilt into AI that the AI
machines are going to be able toreplicate and then improve on
(29:23):
the capacity of the brain togenerate consciousness, to
generate consciousness, and sothat's and that is grounded in
the same economics as theformation of the global
corporations in the 1600s theBritish East India Company.
(29:46):
It is, if you look at some ofthe thought leaders, harari.
Who's this guy?
I can't pronounce his name.
There's a guy who wrote thebook Awakening to the Meaning
Crisis most of them Sam Harris.
They are all taking theassumption that consciousness is
(30:12):
created by the brain.
And until they get past thatthe scenarios that you outlined
it will come.
But it won't come until thatbarrier is kind of knocked down
or overcome.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
I just don't know how somebody could stand in a
constellation, do aconstellation and be in denial
of the you know of what it is.
It's just a.
It seems like it's.
It's about exposure.
You know, you get, you can't.
It's undeniable, it's, it'struer, that the information that
comes through a constellationis truer than truth.
It's the foundation of realityand it's, it's just, it's.
(30:54):
It's fascinating to look at itfrom, from that and be like
every single time, without doubt, without a doubt, this
information comes up and it's astrue as the sun is going to
rise at.
You know, whatever six, six,fifty three am, you know is good
, it's there, it's just it'sthere, there's no denying it.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Right.
So it will take time, butthere's still.
Even in the Constellation worldBert Hellinger was very
agnostic about where therepresentatives are getting
their information and there is alot of.
The constellation leaders whohave succeeded the most and have
(31:39):
the biggest platforms have notchallenged materialism, have not
challenged science.
So they say, well, I want tokeep this scientific, say, well,
I want to keep this scientific.
And then they explainrepresentative perception in
(31:59):
terms of neurology.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
They kind of reference it back to the brain
to mirror neurons and so even inthe constellation world.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
There is a question or a kind of fudging of where
the information is coming fromand, as you're saying, it's not
coming from within our brains,because we're accessing
information and also there areafter effects that happen, that
(32:34):
that happened.
You know the woman who does aconstellation.
She hasn't talked to her fatherin seven years and she's in
germany and he's in australiaand she does a constellation and
then, you know, the nextafternoon he calls yeah, yeah,
yeah, uh, um, you know so manystories like that.
So, uh, absolutely what you'resaying.
But there's, we've got a waysto go, because the machine
(32:54):
doesn't eat itself.
So it's not going to easily,because if they were just going
to look at the evidence, we'd beway beyond it already.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
Hi, I'm John from the Zulu One podcast.
If you like what you're hearingand it resonates with you,
please consider becoming amonthly supporter.
The link is below Thanks, yeah,and we would be doing 20,000
constellations and putting youknow machine learning on top of
it and doing data analytics onit and seeing you know what the
probabilistic math inside ofconstellations is and where it
(33:27):
comes from, and say, yeah, thereand where it comes from, and
say, yeah, there's actually adifferent, there's a different
phenomenon happening here thatwe don't understand.
And I'm I'm a big fan of Rupert.
You know Sheldrake and you knowjust having conversations with
him, because it it you know fromwhat I understand is that Bert
and Rupert were friends or or atleast knew each other about.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
They knew each other.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Yeah, they knew each other and so the relationship
there was interesting.
And you know I want to.
My future kind of goals are todesign experiments around, you
know this morphogenetic fieldsand how it explains the
phenomenon of familyconstellations.
That is a consciousnessquestion, right?
It's like where isconsciousness emergent and in
(34:11):
how?
And so if we you know I go downthe rabbit hole very quickly on
this I'm like, well, imagine ifwe started managing governments
with, you know this, theseprinciples Right, or managing
companies with these principlesand managing social systems with
these principles and principlesof healing, of healing, and you
(34:37):
know cultures having unresolvedtrauma loads and then
resiliency scores of how they'reable to deal with those trauma
loads.
And you know that in some way,religion has played its part on
creating the infrastructure.
Far enough to hear that.
You know that we've built atleast this infrastructure on,
and then it has anotherevolution of what that looks
like.
And you know there's a bookthat I've read.
It's about a Japanese samurai.
(34:57):
It says when you know the waybroadly, you see it in all
things.
And I think it goes back intoseeing this infrastructure.
That happens in all things,literally the consciousness
infrastructure.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
And we have this odd modality that taps into this
thing on a regular basis.
The Netherlands, they useconstellations in the government
.
The EU uses systemic principlesin a lot of their agencies.
So it is coming, and it's a bitof a slow crawl from what I
(35:48):
would have liked to have youknow, feel that we were there,
but I don't know that I'm goingto be around to see it.
But it's, you know, the arc isdefinitely moving towards an
awakening of awareness to ourinterconnection with each other
(36:12):
and also with this like quantuminformation field.
So it's, uh, it's coming atthis exciting time.
It's, it is a really excitingtime to to be a constellator.
So you're hitting it at a at agreat time, uh, where you can.
You've got decades, uh, to dothis and we'll, um, you know,
you'll see, you know, tremendousadvances and acceptance.
(36:34):
I'm sure as, uh, you know, moreand more people become aware.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
Yeah, it's a.
It's a.
It definitely is an excitingtime and you know, I was
fortunate enough to be exposedto constellations in 2008.
And so even that time, peoplewould be like what are you
talking about?
You know, you know just the thefact that people had no idea
and then just being exposed byall the modalities of of
(36:58):
systemic constellations, thestructural constellations, so
your modality, alchemicalconstellations, you know, just
to see all these modalities thatemerge and I think first, one
that said is that many flowerswill, will bud from this, from
this work.
Right, and that's exactlywhat's happened.
People are doing it with horsesand seeing like all these these
just incredible, um,transmutations of this, of this
(37:22):
work.
So, yeah, it's, you're, you'reabsolutely right.
I'm fascinated by this andthat's why I host this podcast
is to say let's get the voicesout there that have been part of
this, this incredible, you knowcommunity to to have these
conversations.
So I think this is this is thebeginning of something really
interesting, and you know peopledid yoga for how long before it
(37:42):
became.
You know yoga mats everywhereand Lululemons, and you know
franchises of of yoga across thecountry.
So I think we might be in the1988 of yoga that right before
it breaks through.
You know that maybe it's onOprah's best you know best
modalities list at some pointhere in the next three years.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
It's getting closer, definitely.
Well, let me I could tell youabout alchemical constellations.
I know you asked that kind oflooped away to AI, but talk
about that.
So the principle of alchemythat we're working with is the
interplay of transformation onthe material level and on the
(38:24):
non-physical level.
The material is kind of themasculine movement, that's where
manipulation tangible, and thenon-physical is more of the
feminine.
(38:47):
Okay, the movement of scienceand corporations also
corresponds with the witch huntsin Europe, okay, and the
destruction of the cultures ofwomen's wisdom, of plant
medicine, of telepathy andsecond sight and these magical
(39:12):
arts that were, you know,largely destroyed in Europe and,
you know, in the developedworld.
And so the alchemy is toregenerate the parts of
ourselves that had this capacityfor magic, for, um, psi
(39:35):
phenomenon, psi awareness, andto be able to do, uh, healing
through working withnon-ordinary consciousness and
uh, it's centered in the heartand we're working with in an
active way, with theconsciousness of nature and
(39:58):
ancestors and spirit, to bebasically be able to turn the
shit of our inheritance, ourtrauma inheritance, to be able
to transform it into compost,into nourishment.
And the heart is the instrumentof the alchemy.
And then we've designed some, Iwould say, some specific
(40:24):
techniques in the modality ofconstellations where we're
working with, in a sense withquantum theory to be able to
release these entanglements.
It's quantum.
It also mirrors Taoist alchemy,which is different from European
(40:52):
alchemy, but they're both aboutI'm not familiar with Taoist
alchemy.
Right, taoist alchemy is CarlJung's alchemy.
So if people who have studiedCarl Jung and his alchemy, it
was sourced from Chinese alchemy, from Taoist alchemy.
(41:13):
In the late 1920s and early1930s he obtained the first
translations of Taoist textsthat were translated from
Chinese into German and he wascompletely taken by them and
(41:33):
then started developing, doinghis own writing about alchemy.
So anyone that's read Jung'swork on alchemy knows about
Taoist alchemy.
You might know Jung alchemyeither.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
No, no, no, no, I don't.
I know Jung, but I don't knowof the alchemy side, which is
interesting.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
It's basically working with ancestors and
ancestral consciousness and theinteraction between uh the
living and the the dead.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
yeah, uh bringing ancestors into a consolation is
just such a powerful tool right,yeah, yeah, and what's
incomplete in they?
Speaker 2 (42:22):
you know a past family member, uh, who died
traumatically or was some aspectof their life incomplete?
In kind of a traditionalclassic constellation, we
symbolically acknowledge theirfate and that loss and then
(42:44):
symbolically kind of give backto the ancestor.
We have her set up arepresentative to give back to
the ancestor.
We have set up a representativeIn the alchemical constellation
.
I'm taken that therepresentative is literally
(43:16):
channeling the consciousness ofthat ancestor.
So they're not symbolicallyrepresenting the ancestor, they
are channeling and that theancestor is also entangled.
Okay, and what the living personis feeling as their issue is
the incomplete ancestor kind ofpinging into their body, needing
(43:41):
release.
So the alchemical constellationis done on behalf of the
ancestor, oh, wow, and theancestor completes their life.
In a sense there's somethingunfinished, yeah, and they get
to complete that and then ascendor be absorbed into the greater
(44:06):
whole, into the greater wholeand when that happens the
entanglement releases from thebody.
Wow, and it's not thatdifferent than a classic
(44:26):
constellation or theconstellations a lot of
facilitators do.
It's not a big shift, it's achange in language and
orientation and also using theobserver effect for the ancestor
in the living to in a mind'seye, to be able to see each
other and affect that release.
(44:48):
So the ancestor is freed andthe living person has a release
in their cellular memory, and sothey are also freed.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
Yeah, I really like the.
It's like you're combining thevery technical aspect of
constellations with the shamanicaspect.
You know it's like and you'reputting it into this like new
methodology which is beautiful'slike, and you're putting it
into this like new methodologywhich is beautiful.
I really really, really like itand I, I really, I really enjoy
that aspect is because I, Iresonate with both.
You know, I'm I'm verytechnical.
(45:20):
I was a, I was a jet enginemechanic in the military, so
that's what I did.
Right, it was like a knuckledragging, knuckle busting kind
of kind of.
You know, um, very Tim Allen,you know, in a in home, and what
is it Home?
It was a home improvement.
You know, you know very much ofthat.
And then I, I came across theseconstellations.
I'm like, oh, there's a wholedifferent aspect here.
(45:41):
So, um, you know, it was very,very interesting.
So tell me, tell me a littlebit about um, you know the
epigenetic facts of how traumaworks in the body, that you know
.
I think science has kind ofcaught up to spirituality in
that aspect that we do hold thecellular memory in our bodies
(46:01):
about trauma.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
Right.
Latest research in biophysicsand molecular biology suggests
that every cell is a quantummachine, that the cells are
exchanging information betweenthe physical and the
(46:26):
non-physical domains constantly,just continuously.
That the information of how tosurvive is in the quantum
information field and it isbeing transmitted through cell
communication at all times.
(46:47):
And then the cells are creatingthe feedback loop to
communicate back, and thephysical manifestation of that
are epigenetic marks, and thishas been recognized in genetic
science now for about 20 years.
They thought in the 80s and 90sthey mapped the human genome
(47:11):
and when they thought that thatwould answer all the biological
questions about all these rarediseases, that they would see
the genetic faults.
But what they discovered isthat there are far too fewer.
The code was so much smallerthan what the expectation was.
(47:36):
So they then started looking atwhat they call epigenetics,
which is just kind of thefree-floating proteins that are
around the gene, and theynoticed that those have marks,
they have switches, basicallybinary on and off, and that
(47:56):
certain switches are in an onposition relating to trauma that
is inherited.
So famine, genocide,immigration, other types of
(48:20):
catastrophes.
They can see the epigeneticmarks and then in turn those
lead to diabetes, depression,anxiety, eating disorders, etc.
Eating disorders, et cetera.
And so through this work withrepresentatives and
constellations, we can accessthe ancestor who was traumatized
(48:55):
, whose trauma is related to theepigenetic mark in the body.
And when they receive theirhealing, people feel and I'm
sure you've noticed this in yourclients they get like there's
the big exhale, they have likegoosebumps.
They feel a big weight liftingoff their shoulder, there's a
somatic, there's a big kind ofshuddering.
They literally feel somethinglosing their body, big chills
(49:17):
kind of run through.
This is epigenetic markswitching in all the cells.
Speaker 1 (49:23):
Wow, Isn't that something Jeez?
I mean, Kellerman's work onepigenetics and Holocaust
survivors was really interestingwhen they talked about that,
and you know, I wonder now ifthere's a post modality study
that you can see if the genescan be switched on, if they can
be switched off on people thathave gone through a healing
(49:46):
modality on the other side of it, and which ones are most
effective a healing modality onthe other side of it and which
ones are most effective, youknow?
Does that make sense?
Like if the trauma is theepicenter of the beginning of
the you know markers?
Turning on that, if there's aconsolation or a you know
medicine, sitting or trauma orbreath work or something that
turns those back to a morehealthy epigenetic state than
(50:08):
there was before, Right.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
It'll come.
I mean, you know it's expensive.
It's like those experimentscost somewhere between 10 and a
hundred million dollars to beable to do that research, to
really land it.
Because if you do oneexperiment with 10 people and it
(50:30):
shows something that doesn'tmean anything, you have to
actually do it in a way that iscredible and that could cost up
to $100 million.
That's wild.
And then there's got to be apayoff.
So one of the limitations ofeverybody gets their own message
and it's different every timeis that it's really hard to
(50:52):
monetize that.
Speaker 1 (50:53):
yeah, yeah yeah, you almost have to monetize it in.
You have to look at it as astatic in the system as a whole,
right, and?
And you have to look atmacroeconomics.
If you look at trauma asbarnacles on the ship, you know
that's slowing the ship down.
Right, that creates more, youknow.
Everything that is not inconnection is chaos, right, or
(51:16):
it takes away from the economicincentives, like war, like you
know, uh, poverty, like divorce,like you know, violent crime is
all static in the system thatyou can maybe potentially make
an economic model to say there'sa post-capitalistic argument
for healing, right, it's like itis in alignment with.
(51:38):
Healing is good for business.
Let's just put it, you know,and to put it in layman's terms,
um, healing equals ebita.
You know in some way, that ahealed business is a effective
business and a business can Ican create and not destroy.
Right, I mean it could, itcould come.
You know in some way that ahealed business is a effective
business and a business can I,can create and not destroy right
, I mean it could, it could come.
Speaker 2 (51:55):
You know, right now the model that we have is um
take the barnacles off the shipin the way that they grow back
by next year, and I'll take themoff again.
Yeah, next year and I'll takethem off again.
Yeah, you know, you know youdon't want to actually take them
off so that they don't comeback.
And I had, when I started I Italked to peers of mine and
(52:17):
psychologists, psychiatrists,that were like laughing at me.
It's like, well, how, where areyou going to get your clients
from?
You know, you do you do likethree sessions with someone and
then they're like they're goodto go.
What kind of you, you, you will, you will die broke doing that.
And I was like, well, I'm neveractually going to run out of
people.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
Of course there's there's 8 billion people on the
planet.
Now I mean, it's someridiculous number, right.
Speaker 2 (52:43):
Right, if I can do that, I will.
I will not ever get to thepoint where the last person has
had their anxiety.
Yeah, and also with thosethousand generations, there's
actually quite a lot of trauma,even when you do a constellation
(53:04):
for someone.
It's a big trauma field ofthose thousand generations that
we have behind us.
It's a big trauma field ofthose thousand generations that
we have behind us, and they dokeep lining up for more healing.
The ancestors don't seem to be.
Speaker 1 (53:20):
We don't seem to run out of ancestors behind us that
need healing very quicklyno-transcript that's a very
(54:15):
powerful thing, like just to sayin that capacity, that and also
the you know constellations inprison and the work that you've
been doing is is just sopowerful.
So, dan, if you know, if peoplewant to get ahold of you, if
they want to connect with youand I hope this is the first of
many conversations that we havetogether because I'd love to
follow up with your work andjust continue to keep you posted
(54:36):
on, you know the work that I'mdoing as well If people want to
get a hold of you, or if they Iknow you do trainings and you're
a very powerful trainer andvery, very complete and diligent
trainer how do people get ahold of you?
Speaker 2 (54:53):
Again, I'll answer that in a second.
I want you know the nextconversation.
I want to hear more about your,uh, your facilitation and some
of the growth edges, uh thatthat you're having and how you
are, um, you know, using yourbody to access and and uh, that
would actually be a reallyinteresting conversation to uh
to hear more about, uh, the workthat you're doing and and, uh,
just you know, kind of go backand forth about that.
Speaker 1 (55:16):
Yeah, we'll definitely schedule another one
and and go deep in and do a deepdive into that conversation.
I'll hopefully it'll be it'llbe very, very soon that we can
have that conversation, so I'llI'll really be looking forward
to it.
Speaker 2 (55:29):
Great, I would love that.
So if people want to reach outto me, my website is
seeingwithyourheartcom and myemail is dan at
seeingwithyourheartcom, so I'measy to reach.
Sometimes I'm a little slowresponding because there's just
a kind of a flood come in.
I'm very earnest, well-meaning,but sometimes I have a hard
(55:54):
time keeping up.
And we have a training programgoing right now a chemical
constellations training andfacilitator certification that
Emily Blayfield and I are doingtogether.
We've been working together forover 12 years.
So and I are doing togetherWe've been working together for
over 12 years.
(56:14):
So Seen With your Heart is thetwo of us.
And I have a class Science,myth and Magic which just
started a few weeks ago.
I usually do that once or twicea year.
That's a 14-week class where Igo into a lot of the history, do
maybe 30 minutes of teaching,and then we go into the field
and we do collectiveconstellations around different
(56:35):
themes that are alive in thegroup and then we work globally.
So the next trip that we haveis to South Africa in May.
It's almost full.
It's going to be unbelievable.
It's 12 days.
We have a five day retreat in awild game preserve and we're
(57:00):
going to KwaZulu-Natal, which iswhere Bert Hellinger was in
South Africa.
We're going to go visit themonastery where he lived.
We're going to go visit themonastery where he lived.
We're going to go there.
But we're in that region Fivedays in a game preserve.
Emily and I we're going to beconstellating every day and then
(57:28):
also going on game drives wherethey put you in this open air
truck and then they drivethrough the game preserve and
all the big African animals areall there to see all them.
And then we have a seven-daytour five days and plus seven,
so it's 12 days, and we're goingto different sacred sites.
We're going to these ancientcaves and the river and we're
(57:50):
going to go to a village wherethere's a Sangoma, who's a
traditional Zulu shaman, andshe's going to receive us and
we'll do ceremony with her andon and on.
Speaker 1 (58:03):
Anyway, it's a whole oh, that's beautiful, that's an
opportunity of a lifetime.
Absolutely that's a once in alifetime kind of journey.
That's an opportunity of alifetime.
Absolutely that's aonce-in-a-lifetime kind of
journey.
Speaker 2 (58:13):
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (58:14):
And you do do.
Zoom constellations,constellations online.
Speaker 2 (58:19):
Right, and then I do.
Yeah, I have like a privatepractice where I work with
people individually.
I do mentoring, which is alittle bit more of a longer
program, but I do work with seapeople individually.
And Emily also travels around.
She's going to be in upstateNew York, she's going to Toronto
, does live events differentplaces.
(58:41):
So it's all.
Everything's on our website onthe events and the courses, so
you can learn everything aboutus there.
Speaker 1 (58:49):
Yeah, that's beautiful and that's beautiful,
and hopefully we can get youdown here in South Florida soon,
dan.
Speaker 2 (58:54):
Yeah, I'd love that.
Speaker 1 (58:56):
Yeah, that'd be great .
That'd be great.
Yeah, thank you so much.
I really appreciate it.
This has been a wonderfulconversation.
Speaker 2 (59:02):
I really enjoyed talking to you and looking
forward to learning more aboutyour work next time, john, yeah,
about your work next time, john.
Speaker 1 (59:07):
Yeah, thanks, dan, appreciate it.
Thanks for tuning in to theZulu One podcast.
If you found value in today'spodcast, please don't forget to
like, share and subscribe.
Your support means everythingto us and thank you for being
part of this journey.
Welcome to the podcast.
Today, I'm joined by Dr DanCohen, a leader in family
constellations and ancestralhealing.
We discuss his work in prisons,the power of constellations and
how AI could shape healing.
We also explore alchemy andtransformation and what it takes
to break free from inheritedburdens.
If you're curious about howhidden forces shape your life,
(00:21):
this episode's for you.
Thank you, Dan.
How are you?
Good, Great.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Good to see you.
Yeah, glad to see you, and tohave this time together is
really special.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Thank you, thank you, thank you, and you know very
quietly in the background,you've had a huge influence in
how I look at constellations.
So I want to start off withgratitude to say thank you.
Sophie Sudai, my dear friendwould always talk about the work
(01:08):
that you've done and thedifferent modalities that you've
done, and always been just asfascinated by how profound this
work is and your backgroundbeing very technical and then
getting into the consolationworld.
So tell me a little bit abouthow that journey started.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Yeah it's.
You know I'm old so it gets tobe a longer and longer story.
I'll try to minimize it alittle bit.
I grew up in New York Cityduring the civil rights movement
and then the black powermovement.
I went to middle school andhigh school in Harlem, so this
(01:51):
activism was really close.
And the school that I went towas a progressive private school
in Manhattan, small, raciallydiverse in a lot of different
ways, racially diverse in a lotof different ways, and they
really put a lot of emphasis onmaking the world a better place.
(02:12):
Just change the world in yourlittle corner of it.
And when I got into my 20s I wasmoving around a little bit and
I took a class at NorthwesternUniversity with a professor who
had done her dissertation onIsaac Newton's alchemy.
(02:33):
She was only one of twoacademics in the world who had
really seen the alchemicalpapers.
They had been hidden forcenturies, the alchemical papers
.
They had been hidden forcenturies and it's an
interesting story but I won't gointo the details.
But she was a high schoolscience teacher in Arkansas, in
(02:54):
her hometown, and she ended upat Cambridge University to do a
dissertation on the history ofscience and she was given these
alchemical papers and invited togo into the data and write a
dissertation.
And what she discovered wasthat the modern scientific
(03:16):
worldview which I had grown upon, the materialism, secular
humanism, the physicalism, thesecular humanism, the
physicalism the belief thathumans used to think that the
Earth was at the center of theuniverse and the planets and the
stars and the sun, everythingorbited around the Earth and the
(03:37):
Earth had been created by Godand man had been put on Earth
and then women as a kind ofhelper, and this was the
universe.
It existed in this celestialsphere.
And then science came along inthe 1600s and blew the whole
thing up and discovered throughobservation and mathematics that
(04:00):
the Earth, that the sun was atthe center, everything orbited
around the sun, and that theEarth was just the sun was at
the center, everything orbitedaround the sun, and that the
Earth went from the center ofthe universe to just like a
pebble in the vast emptiness andit made our lives empty as well
.
That this huge existentialdilemma of the modern time is
(04:26):
the way that this scientificshift changed us from feeling
ourselves at the center of theuniverse to basically nothing,
to just an accidental collectionof chemicals that with no
meaning or purpose, just throughblind chance, just happened to
come together, just somehow.
(04:46):
What she taught from Newton'swork is that, basically, there
was no science behind theworldview.
There was behind the solarsystem, but the principle that
came from it that the universeis empty and meaningless and
that everything can be explainedin terms of physical forces and
(05:12):
these laws of physics, thatthat was unscientific, that it
existed.
It was created by the Englishcrown and the global
corporations, the first globalcorporation, which was the
British East India Company.
(05:33):
They needed an amoral theologyto replace Christianity, which
put limits on what you could do,replace Christianity, which put
limits on what you could do,and in the pursuit of wealth and
(05:54):
empire.
In pursuit of wealth and empire, they created a theology that
allowed unlimited amounts ofenslavement and exploitation and
extraction, and then they soldthe scientific worldview that
went along with it.
But what she taught was that itwas not scientific and that the
(06:17):
science actually showed thatthe universe is filled with
consciousness and thatconsciousness comes first.
It's the primary mover, is notmatter and energy creating
consciousness, which is themodern view.
(06:37):
It's consciousness creatingenergy and matter.
Oh, wow energy and matter, ohwow.
And that that science is moregrounded in the experimentation,
in the data, than thematerialist worldview, which has
(06:58):
basically never been confirmed.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
So rather than being heliocentric, it is almost
consciousness centric.
That is, like the consciousnessis the base of reality that
holds the universe together.
Am I understanding thatcorrectly?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Right, if you look at the latest like kind of maps of
this of the solar system.
It's not what we were shown inschool which is kind of you know
, used to do those styrofoamballs and the sun hanging and
you put the planets, you knowthe sun itself is moving, it's
flying at like you know billionsof whatever miles you know per
(07:39):
second.
It is hurtling through space anddragging the planets along with
it which are spinning around it.
There is no kind of fixedheliocentric solar system the
way we think of it, and that,yes, it is all.
Everything that happens startswith the non-physical.
(08:01):
It starts with consciousness,okay, and the consciousness
creates energy and then matter,and there's a continuum that
consciousness is the most light,it slows down into energy and
then it slows down more intomatter.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Oh, wow, jeez, that's humongous.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Right, and this is confirmed in quantum theory.
So the quantum experiments ofthe 1920s demonstrated this,
that consciousness comes first.
And the founders of quantumtheory Max Planck, david Bohm,
(08:48):
et cetera recognize this.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Yeah, the David Bohm stuff is so fascinating, it's so
fascinating.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
It's the.
It is the same as what I'msaying.
I could say it in his language,but this is his work as well.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
So I spent my 20s and my 30s and most of my 40s on
kind of a mission to solve thesecond half of the alchemical
mystery.
The first half how to transformmatter, how to turn lead into
(09:31):
gold also comes from quantumtheory and it is essentially
nuclear.
Fission is a transformation ofmatter.
You could write how to changelead into gold on a blackboard
with a mathematical formula, butwhat we have done with it is
(09:52):
we've weaponized it, because theother half of the alchemical
mystery, the kind of thefeminine half, the non-physical
part, was left to atrophy fourcenturies ago.
And so I took on to try to be ascientist of the heart, to look
(10:14):
for how to createtransformation in the heart, and
I did that for about 25 years,and after 25 years I came to a
place where I realized there wasa tool missing, that what I had
to work with wasn't going toget us as a species or myself,
(10:39):
on this mission where I wantedto go.
I'd kind of run out in terms ofall the different tools of
psychology and spirituality even, and religion and politics, all
those things.
They weren't really gettingthere, and so I had the
opportunity to stop working.
(11:00):
I had an engineering companythat I had owned and operated
for 18 years and my partner andI sold it to a gas utility.
So I got a little bit of moneyfrom the sale, enough that I
didn't have to get another jobimmediately.
And so I went looking for themissing tool and I devoted
(11:21):
myself to finding the missingtool.
I knew it was out theresomewhere.
I assumed it was out theresomewhere, but I didn't know
what it was and where I wouldfind it.
But I saw a flyer for a FamilyConstellations event in South
Dakota.
I was living in Boston.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
In South.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Dakota, south Dakota, in Rapid City, wow, at the end
of November in 2000.
And I saw that and I thoughtthis looks like what I'm looking
for.
Just from reading thedescription I thought to myself
this looks like it.
So I flew out there, Iregistered for it and I flew
from Boston to Rapid City in themiddle, you know, the end of
(11:59):
almost the beginning of winter.
Oh my gosh, to do this threeday with Heinz Stark, who I
don't know if that's a name youknow, yes, yes, yes.
And when I saw his work thefirst day, I thought, okay, this
looks like it, but I'm NewYorker, so it's always.
Everything's met with a lot ofskepticism.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
It makes sense.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
It makes sense, but I wanted to pursue it.
So I found out Bert Hellingerwas doing a seven-day event in
English in Germany that springand then Susie Tucker and Bert
Hellinger were doing a trainingin New York City.
That started later that yearand I signed up for those.
(12:42):
And then I also went tograduate school.
I got a PhD in psychology,started that because I wanted to
have some background.
But I thought, okay, this iswhat I'm going to be doing and
that was uh.
That was the opening, uh, 25years ago now, to uh my work as
a uh family constellationfacilitator.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
That's incredible.
And so how you know, I knowwhen you get into the
consolation world it's likefirst you start, you know,
attending consolations and thenmaybe co-facilitating some
consolations or being used as arepresentative in many places.
How long did it take you totransform into that facilitator
role and really lead theconstellations?
Speaker 2 (13:26):
It was about three years of training.
I did the training I did withBert and Susie.
That was a year and then, youknow, bert was coming back every
year and there were a lot ofother Germans that were coming
and I went to Germany a coupleof times to some other
conferences and then graduallystarted looking for
(13:51):
opportunities.
It's actually how I starteddoing work in prison, because
there weren't clients and nobodyhad ever heard of a
constellation.
And then when you explain it tothem, they really don't want to
do it, much less interestedonce they know what it is, the
systemic resistance wall goesstraight up and they're like,
yeah, nope, I don't want totouch that.
(14:12):
Right, totally yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Yeah, no, and, and you know, I, I recently this was
.
This is a very embarrassingstory for me, but I was with my
wife and we're on, we're on aplane and I had picked up your
book and I had your book on myshelf for a little while and I'm
like, and Sophie, sophie Sudai,our dear friend, was saying you
know, you should read this, youreally should read this book,
(14:36):
because I'm on the flight andthank God I'm like on the window
aisle so my wife could shieldme a bit, but I'm sobbing on the
plane as I'm reading and I'll,man, I'll get so emotional now,
but just um, just the depth ofhumanity, you know, just, uh,
(14:58):
really yeah, just the depth of,of the human spirit, you know,
and the arc of the human spirit,and there's a line about being
in some way and I'm paraphrasinghere, but being in the depths
of this prison that creatingthis incredibly sacred place.
It really touched me to see theresilience of the human spirit,
(15:25):
that you can create thisincredible modality in some of
the most horrific environments.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Right, it was the men who were in that environment,
living in that in my circle, hadcommitted themselves to take a
spiritual path and had been formany years by the time I met
them, and so they were reallyready for this, to do this work.
And to you know, we work withthe victim perpetrator bond,
(16:13):
which was not available for themwith the other, you know
there's a lot of volunteers thatgo in.
Yeah, they're still with me.
They closed the prison.
Oh, it's been a while, it'sbeen over 10 years.
The prison closed and the menwere all distributed to other
facilities and I made someattempts to try to transfer to
(16:34):
other facilities, but it's inthe environment.
I had to go through a wholevetting process and it just
didn't work out.
So I've been out of that, um,that role.
I would, if they they werestill there, I'd still be going
in.
I mean, I wouldn't have stoppedit's beautiful yeah, uh, but it
um, after they closed the prison, I didn't have a way, but they
(16:57):
energetically and and then,through consciousness, there's
they, uh, still with me andthey're with me in some of the
you know the really tough spotswhen I'm with working with a
client who it just seemshopeless, you know the worst
they come and they stand behindme.
(17:18):
Or, if I'm feeling, there wasone time where I can't remember
the details of it, but I wasworking with someone and the
issue they presented was so thesituation was horrific and their
resources were so limited, andthey kind of looked at me like,
(17:39):
how are you going to help me?
Like everyone has.
Everyone who's ever touched thishas failed, myself included as
a client.
No one's ever been able to doanything good with this.
It's just been one after theother.
And they looked at me and Ifelt really humbled and I was
(18:06):
like, well, what makes you thinkI'm going to be able to do
something in the face of theenormity of this loss and the
destruction?
And this is when I felt the menbehind me a couple of them who
had passed away came in verydistinctly and they were, you
(18:28):
know.
Their message was well, likeyou're not here to be one more
person that fails.
You know that's all they've had.
You know you're in thissituation that somebody come and
do something good, Somebodycome and do something that makes
a difference, and that's whatyou're here for.
(18:48):
What a gift and I just felttheir support and it was.
You did a beautiful piece ofwork, and not about me as a
facilitator, but just workingwith the field and bringing in
the resources of ancestors andspirit to be able to come in
with support and just hold acontainer for what was possible.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Yeah, and that very much, you know, parallels my
experience a bit.
I'm working with anorganization called the Circle
of Brotherhood here in Miami andit's just like some of the most
incredible human beings thatI've ever witnessed, that have
spent, you know, multi-decadesin in the prison system and,
despite all the efforts of thesystem to maintain the, the
(19:37):
patterns of pain, they've comeout victorious on the other side
.
You know, and and throughdifferent healing modalities
that they've found themselves isand just and just you know, the
transformation, in face of theodds of these systems that are
designed to perpetuate thevictim-perpetrator narrative or
(20:00):
the victim-perpetrator dynamic.
So, you know, when I saw yourbook and I started reading, I
was just like my mind just wascontinuously blown.
And you and I had aconversation when I started
doing this work and you werelike it was, you know,
paraphrasing here, but you yousaid something of a nature of
like it's the most rewardingwork that I've ever done, you
know, and I was just, I was sohumbled because I knew that
(20:21):
that's the journey that I was,that was that I was on, and you
just really start seeing.
You start seeing you knowcommunities as systems and when
you start putting certaincommunities.
In certain systems you startsaying, oh well, there's been a
victim perpetrator dynamic goingon for 600 generations, for a
thousand generations.
(20:42):
That is like continuallyperpetuating the patterns of
pain.
The culture is almostsolidified into maintaining
those structures.
So how, you know, how did younavigate?
And it almost seems I'm askinga couple of questions here.
But you know, I always see,when you go into, like what I,
what I just saw, what I heardyou say, is that you know, there
(21:05):
was like an opening in thesystem, like you went in, did a
bunch of work and then thesystem closed it out because it
knew it was going to be changing.
And you almost like, inoculatethe system with healing and the
echoes of that will turn intoGod knows what.
Right, I mean, one of the signsmight have been that this
prison itself shut down becausethere was already so much
(21:25):
systemic reverberationthroughout it.
Right that?
they had to shut it down because, because it doesn't work
anymore or whatever, forwhatever reason.
So I'm just always fascinatedabout the, the echoing of
healing throughout systems, andif you've noticed kind of the
same pattern in that, in that,in that way, by using our bodies
(21:48):
as instruments that connect tothis universal field of
consciousness.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
So there's, you know, 600 or 1,000 generations, yes,
of this kind of war-like,destructive quality, but there's
actually 7,000 generationsbehind those 1,000 generations,
(22:17):
because the 1,000 generationsare about 30,000 years and
there's 200,000 years behindthat of evolution of our.
Our bodies have evolved and ourbodies evolved with this
incredible resonance andcapacity to interact with the
(22:41):
consciousness of the universe,and a lot of that, culturally,
has been extracted from us, butevolution has maintained it.
It's in our bodies.
So when we are able to retrainour bodies to be able to
(23:04):
interact with the universalconsciousness field and do it in
a way that we're not creating anew religion, we're not, you
know, writing it all down andthen you know presenting it as
the new truth, but teachingpeople that every time you do it
(23:24):
, the message is just for you inthat moment and the next time
it's going to be a differentmessage and everybody gets a
different message.
It's just using evolution'scapacity in our body to be able
(23:47):
to interact consciously withawareness, because our cells are
doing it all the time.
Our cells are quantum machinesthat are drawing this
information from the universalconsciousness field, but our
culture, language and narrativesall say that it doesn't exist.
(24:10):
Narratives all say that itdoesn't exist.
And if it does exist, it was.
You know, somebody figured itout a thousand years ago or 2000
years ago or 3000 years ago andwrote it down, and then it's
degraded since then.
You know, the ultimate truthexisted sometime in the past, in
this book with these teachings,and you can only receive it by
(24:36):
kind of going back into thattradition and then you can try
to, you know, revitalize some ofit.
That could be useful for you.
But my work is evolutionary.
It's mystical and it'sevolutionary that this is what
is going to happen in the nextthousand generations of humanity
(24:58):
yeah, develop our capacity tointeract with awareness, with
the universal energy field andinformation field, and be able
(25:19):
to live accordingly.
And it's transformational.
This is the transformation andthe heart is the organ of
transformation in the body,where we can start to digest and
process these old traumas andturn them into nourishment for a
future.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Yeah, yeah, that's.
You know.
What comes to mind right now iskind of this advent of AI,
right, Everybody's talking about.
AI and how machine learning isworking.
And you know what?
I'm so encouraged by this factthat what may happen is that AI
shows us how much dark matterthere actually is, which is this
(26:01):
universal morphogeneticconsciousness, whatever you want
to call the thing that we'veall called it the Holy Spirit,
the universe, mickey Mouse, thisthing that connects us all,
that the equation will bepresented in such a way that,
like, there is a dark matterhere that we haven't attested
for, and I think in some waydark matter may be that
(26:22):
consciousness that holdseverything together and that
will get to a point where thetechnology catches up with the
spirituality in some way,because it makes no sense that
the thing, the phenomenon thathappens in a constellation
happens from modern standardsRight, that you can say we can
do constellations on Zoom andsomebody is representing the
(26:43):
person's mother immediately,3000 miles away or however you
know, whatever the distance is,and immediately starts weeping
because the mother lost a childthat she didn't know about or
whatever that is, and so it'snot bound by time, space and
this reality that, on a regularbasis and in a repeatable,
measurable, trainable fashion,we can connect to this in
(27:05):
knowing field.
And there's so much, there'sinformation that you would never
know about it.
So I'm fascinated about whatthe future of technology and how
it's going to connect with thismodality, is going to look like
in the future.
And thank you for standing onthe shoulders of giants and
thank you for being one of thosegiants, because it's very
(27:27):
fascinating to be doing thismodality at this time with you
know, with all the past and andthe incredible teachers that
we've had and putting thattogether, it's been, it's been,
it's been really fascinating.
So tell me a little bit aboutyou know um, the alchemical
constellations, and I I had theum.
(27:47):
I had the privilege toexperience.
You facilitated a constellationwith for me back in November
and it was extraordinarilypowerful.
I always like to go tofacilitators that I don't
personally know very wellbecause it's you know, you
always get a clear channel rightor a clear, clean slate.
So I just jumped on theopportunity and I just wanted to
(28:08):
say thank you, but tell me alittle bit about how you came up
and developed that modality.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
I want to, um, let me just.
Can I loop back to AI for amoment?
Yeah, sure, uh, I want to get,I want to answer that, but you,
you, you.
You spoke about AI and I have,um, there's an aspect to it.
So, ai, we'll get to the pointthat you're describing, but
before it gets there, there's away that the game is rigged, and
(28:39):
it won't get there as long asthe game remains rigged.
In AI, there is an assumptionthat human consciousness is
created by the brain and thatthe silicon chips are
(29:00):
reproducing what the neuralnetworks in the brain do and
that they can do it better thanthe brain.
And so there's an assumptionbuilt into AI that the AI
machines are going to be able toreplicate and then improve on
(29:23):
the capacity of the brain togenerate consciousness, to
generate consciousness, and sothat's and that is grounded in
the same economics as theformation of the global
corporations in the 1600s theBritish East India Company.
(29:46):
It is, if you look at some ofthe thought leaders, harari.
Who's this guy?
I can't pronounce his name.
There's a guy who wrote thebook Awakening to the Meaning
Crisis most of them Sam Harris.
They are all taking theassumption that consciousness is
(30:12):
created by the brain.
And until they get past thatthe scenarios that you outlined
it will come.
But it won't come until thatbarrier is kind of knocked down
or overcome.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
I just don't know how somebody could stand in a
constellation, do aconstellation and be in denial
of the you know of what it is.
It's just a.
It seems like it's.
It's about exposure.
You know, you get, you can't.
It's undeniable, it's, it'struer, that the information that
comes through a constellationis truer than truth.
It's the foundation of realityand it's, it's just, it's.
(30:54):
It's fascinating to look at itfrom, from that and be like
every single time, without doubt, without a doubt, this
information comes up and it's astrue as the sun is going to
rise at.
You know, whatever six, six,fifty three am, you know is good
, it's there, it's just it'sthere, there's no denying it.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Right.
So it will take time, butthere's still.
Even in the Constellation worldBert Hellinger was very
agnostic about where therepresentatives are getting
their information and there is alot of.
The constellation leaders whohave succeeded the most and have
(31:39):
the biggest platforms have notchallenged materialism, have not
challenged science.
So they say, well, I want tokeep this scientific, say, well,
I want to keep this scientific.
And then they explainrepresentative perception in
(31:59):
terms of neurology.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
They kind of reference it back to the brain
to mirror neurons and so even inthe constellation world.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
There is a question or a kind of fudging of where
the information is coming fromand, as you're saying, it's not
coming from within our brains,because we're accessing
information and also there areafter effects that happen, that
(32:34):
that happened.
You know the woman who does aconstellation.
She hasn't talked to her fatherin seven years and she's in
germany and he's in australiaand she does a constellation and
then, you know, the nextafternoon he calls yeah, yeah,
yeah, uh, um, you know so manystories like that.
So, uh, absolutely what you'resaying.
But there's, we've got a waysto go, because the machine
(32:54):
doesn't eat itself.
So it's not going to easily,because if they were just going
to look at the evidence, we'd beway beyond it already.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
Hi, I'm John from the Zulu One podcast.
If you like what you're hearingand it resonates with you,
please consider becoming amonthly supporter.
The link is below Thanks, yeah,and we would be doing 20,000
constellations and putting youknow machine learning on top of
it and doing data analytics onit and seeing you know what the
probabilistic math inside ofconstellations is and where it
(33:27):
comes from, and say, yeah, thereand where it comes from, and
say, yeah, there's actually adifferent, there's a different
phenomenon happening here thatwe don't understand.
And I'm I'm a big fan of Rupert.
You know Sheldrake and you knowjust having conversations with
him, because it it you know fromwhat I understand is that Bert
and Rupert were friends or or atleast knew each other about.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
They knew each other.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Yeah, they knew each other and so the relationship
there was interesting.
And you know I want to.
My future kind of goals are todesign experiments around, you
know this morphogenetic fieldsand how it explains the
phenomenon of familyconstellations.
That is a consciousnessquestion, right?
It's like where isconsciousness emergent and in
(34:11):
how?
And so if we you know I go downthe rabbit hole very quickly on
this I'm like, well, imagine ifwe started managing governments
with, you know this, theseprinciples Right, or managing
companies with these principlesand managing social systems with
these principles and principlesof healing, of healing, and you
(34:37):
know cultures having unresolvedtrauma loads and then
resiliency scores of how they'reable to deal with those trauma
loads.
And you know that in some way,religion has played its part on
creating the infrastructure.
Far enough to hear that.
You know that we've built atleast this infrastructure on,
and then it has anotherevolution of what that looks
like.
And you know there's a bookthat I've read.
It's about a Japanese samurai.
(34:57):
It says when you know the waybroadly, you see it in all
things.
And I think it goes back intoseeing this infrastructure.
That happens in all things,literally the consciousness
infrastructure.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
And we have this odd modality that taps into this
thing on a regular basis.
The Netherlands, they useconstellations in the government
.
The EU uses systemic principlesin a lot of their agencies.
So it is coming, and it's a bitof a slow crawl from what I
(35:48):
would have liked to have youknow, feel that we were there,
but I don't know that I'm goingto be around to see it.
But it's, you know, the arc isdefinitely moving towards an
awakening of awareness to ourinterconnection with each other
(36:12):
and also with this like quantuminformation field.
So it's, uh, it's coming atthis exciting time.
It's, it is a really excitingtime to to be a constellator.
So you're hitting it at a at agreat time, uh, where you can.
You've got decades, uh, to dothis and we'll, um, you know,
you'll see, you know, tremendousadvances and acceptance.
(36:34):
I'm sure as, uh, you know, moreand more people become aware.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
Yeah, it's a.
It's a.
It definitely is an excitingtime and you know, I was
fortunate enough to be exposedto constellations in 2008.
And so even that time, peoplewould be like what are you
talking about?
You know, you know just the thefact that people had no idea
and then just being exposed byall the modalities of of
(36:58):
systemic constellations, thestructural constellations, so
your modality, alchemicalconstellations, you know, just
to see all these modalities thatemerge and I think first, one
that said is that many flowerswill, will bud from this, from
this work.
Right, and that's exactlywhat's happened.
People are doing it with horsesand seeing like all these these
just incredible, um,transmutations of this, of this
(37:22):
work.
So, yeah, it's, you're, you'reabsolutely right.
I'm fascinated by this andthat's why I host this podcast
is to say let's get the voicesout there that have been part of
this, this incredible, you knowcommunity to to have these
conversations.
So I think this is this is thebeginning of something really
interesting, and you know peopledid yoga for how long before it
(37:42):
became.
You know yoga mats everywhereand Lululemons, and you know
franchises of of yoga across thecountry.
So I think we might be in the1988 of yoga that right before
it breaks through.
You know that maybe it's onOprah's best you know best
modalities list at some pointhere in the next three years.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
It's getting closer, definitely.
Well, let me I could tell youabout alchemical constellations.
I know you asked that kind oflooped away to AI, but talk
about that.
So the principle of alchemythat we're working with is the
interplay of transformation onthe material level and on the
(38:24):
non-physical level.
The material is kind of themasculine movement, that's where
manipulation tangible, and thenon-physical is more of the
feminine.
(38:47):
Okay, the movement of scienceand corporations also
corresponds with the witch huntsin Europe, okay, and the
destruction of the cultures ofwomen's wisdom, of plant
medicine, of telepathy andsecond sight and these magical
(39:12):
arts that were, you know,largely destroyed in Europe and,
you know, in the developedworld.
And so the alchemy is toregenerate the parts of
ourselves that had this capacityfor magic, for, um, psi
(39:35):
phenomenon, psi awareness, andto be able to do, uh, healing
through working withnon-ordinary consciousness and
uh, it's centered in the heartand we're working with in an
active way, with theconsciousness of nature and
(39:58):
ancestors and spirit, to bebasically be able to turn the
shit of our inheritance, ourtrauma inheritance, to be able
to transform it into compost,into nourishment.
And the heart is the instrumentof the alchemy.
And then we've designed some, Iwould say, some specific
(40:24):
techniques in the modality ofconstellations where we're
working with, in a sense withquantum theory to be able to
release these entanglements.
It's quantum.
It also mirrors Taoist alchemy,which is different from European
(40:52):
alchemy, but they're both aboutI'm not familiar with Taoist
alchemy.
Right, taoist alchemy is CarlJung's alchemy.
So if people who have studiedCarl Jung and his alchemy, it
was sourced from Chinese alchemy, from Taoist alchemy.
(41:13):
In the late 1920s and early1930s he obtained the first
translations of Taoist textsthat were translated from
Chinese into German and he wascompletely taken by them and
(41:33):
then started developing, doinghis own writing about alchemy.
So anyone that's read Jung'swork on alchemy knows about
Taoist alchemy.
You might know Jung alchemyeither.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
No, no, no, no, I don't.
I know Jung, but I don't knowof the alchemy side, which is
interesting.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
It's basically working with ancestors and
ancestral consciousness and theinteraction between uh the
living and the the dead.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
yeah, uh bringing ancestors into a consolation is
just such a powerful tool right,yeah, yeah, and what's
incomplete in they?
Speaker 2 (42:22):
you know a past family member, uh, who died
traumatically or was some aspectof their life incomplete?
In kind of a traditionalclassic constellation, we
symbolically acknowledge theirfate and that loss and then
(42:44):
symbolically kind of give backto the ancestor.
We have her set up arepresentative to give back to
the ancestor.
We have set up a representativeIn the alchemical constellation
.
I'm taken that therepresentative is literally
(43:16):
channeling the consciousness ofthat ancestor.
So they're not symbolicallyrepresenting the ancestor, they
are channeling and that theancestor is also entangled.
Okay, and what the living personis feeling as their issue is
the incomplete ancestor kind ofpinging into their body, needing
(43:41):
release.
So the alchemical constellationis done on behalf of the
ancestor, oh, wow, and theancestor completes their life.
In a sense there's somethingunfinished, yeah, and they get
to complete that and then ascendor be absorbed into the greater
(44:06):
whole, into the greater wholeand when that happens the
entanglement releases from thebody.
Wow, and it's not thatdifferent than a classic
(44:26):
constellation or theconstellations a lot of
facilitators do.
It's not a big shift, it's achange in language and
orientation and also using theobserver effect for the ancestor
in the living to in a mind'seye, to be able to see each
other and affect that release.
(44:48):
So the ancestor is freed andthe living person has a release
in their cellular memory, and sothey are also freed.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
Yeah, I really like the.
It's like you're combining thevery technical aspect of
constellations with the shamanicaspect.
You know it's like and you'reputting it into this like new
methodology which is beautiful'slike, and you're putting it
into this like new methodologywhich is beautiful.
I really really, really like itand I, I really, I really enjoy
that aspect is because I, Iresonate with both.
You know, I'm I'm verytechnical.
(45:20):
I was a, I was a jet enginemechanic in the military, so
that's what I did.
Right, it was like a knuckledragging, knuckle busting kind
of kind of.
You know, um, very Tim Allen,you know, in a in home, and what
is it Home?
It was a home improvement.
You know, you know very much ofthat.
And then I, I came across theseconstellations.
I'm like, oh, there's a wholedifferent aspect here.
(45:41):
So, um, you know, it was very,very interesting.
So tell me, tell me a littlebit about um, you know the
epigenetic facts of how traumaworks in the body, that you know
.
I think science has kind ofcaught up to spirituality in
that aspect that we do hold thecellular memory in our bodies
(46:01):
about trauma.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
Right.
Latest research in biophysicsand molecular biology suggests
that every cell is a quantummachine, that the cells are
exchanging information betweenthe physical and the
(46:26):
non-physical domains constantly,just continuously.
That the information of how tosurvive is in the quantum
information field and it isbeing transmitted through cell
communication at all times.
(46:47):
And then the cells are creatingthe feedback loop to
communicate back, and thephysical manifestation of that
are epigenetic marks, and thishas been recognized in genetic
science now for about 20 years.
They thought in the 80s and 90sthey mapped the human genome
(47:11):
and when they thought that thatwould answer all the biological
questions about all these rarediseases, that they would see
the genetic faults.
But what they discovered isthat there are far too fewer.
The code was so much smallerthan what the expectation was.
(47:36):
So they then started looking atwhat they call epigenetics,
which is just kind of thefree-floating proteins that are
around the gene, and theynoticed that those have marks,
they have switches, basicallybinary on and off, and that
(47:56):
certain switches are in an onposition relating to trauma that
is inherited.
So famine, genocide,immigration, other types of
(48:20):
catastrophes.
They can see the epigeneticmarks and then in turn those
lead to diabetes, depression,anxiety, eating disorders, etc.
Eating disorders, et cetera.
And so through this work withrepresentatives and
constellations, we can accessthe ancestor who was traumatized
(48:55):
, whose trauma is related to theepigenetic mark in the body.
And when they receive theirhealing, people feel and I'm
sure you've noticed this in yourclients they get like there's
the big exhale, they have likegoosebumps.
They feel a big weight liftingoff their shoulder, there's a
somatic, there's a big kind ofshuddering.
They literally feel somethinglosing their body, big chills
(49:17):
kind of run through.
This is epigenetic markswitching in all the cells.
Speaker 1 (49:23):
Wow, Isn't that something Jeez?
I mean, Kellerman's work onepigenetics and Holocaust
survivors was really interestingwhen they talked about that,
and you know, I wonder now ifthere's a post modality study
that you can see if the genescan be switched on, if they can
be switched off on people thathave gone through a healing
(49:46):
modality on the other side of it, and which ones are most
effective a healing modality onthe other side of it and which
ones are most effective, youknow?
Does that make sense?
Like if the trauma is theepicenter of the beginning of
the you know markers?
Turning on that, if there's aconsolation or a you know
medicine, sitting or trauma orbreath work or something that
turns those back to a morehealthy epigenetic state than
(50:08):
there was before, Right.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
It'll come.
I mean, you know it's expensive.
It's like those experimentscost somewhere between 10 and a
hundred million dollars to beable to do that research, to
really land it.
Because if you do oneexperiment with 10 people and it
(50:30):
shows something that doesn'tmean anything, you have to
actually do it in a way that iscredible and that could cost up
to $100 million.
That's wild.
And then there's got to be apayoff.
So one of the limitations ofeverybody gets their own message
and it's different every timeis that it's really hard to
(50:52):
monetize that.
Speaker 1 (50:53):
yeah, yeah yeah, you almost have to monetize it in.
You have to look at it as astatic in the system as a whole,
right, and?
And you have to look atmacroeconomics.
If you look at trauma asbarnacles on the ship, you know
that's slowing the ship down.
Right, that creates more, youknow.
Everything that is not inconnection is chaos, right, or
(51:16):
it takes away from the economicincentives, like war, like you
know, uh, poverty, like divorce,like you know, violent crime is
all static in the system thatyou can maybe potentially make
an economic model to say there'sa post-capitalistic argument
for healing, right, it's like itis in alignment with.
(51:38):
Healing is good for business.
Let's just put it, you know,and to put it in layman's terms,
um, healing equals ebita.
You know in some way, that ahealed business is a effective
business and a business can Ican create and not destroy.
Right, I mean it could, itcould come.
You know in some way that ahealed business is a effective
business and a business can I,can create and not destroy right
, I mean it could, it could come.
Speaker 2 (51:55):
You know, right now the model that we have is um
take the barnacles off the shipin the way that they grow back
by next year, and I'll take themoff again.
Yeah, next year and I'll takethem off again.
Yeah, you know, you know youdon't want to actually take them
off so that they don't comeback.
And I had, when I started I Italked to peers of mine and
(52:17):
psychologists, psychiatrists,that were like laughing at me.
It's like, well, how, where areyou going to get your clients
from?
You know, you do you do likethree sessions with someone and
then they're like they're goodto go.
What kind of you, you, you will, you will die broke doing that.
And I was like, well, I'm neveractually going to run out of
people.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
Of course there's there's 8 billion people on the
planet.
Now I mean, it's someridiculous number, right.
Speaker 2 (52:43):
Right, if I can do that, I will.
I will not ever get to thepoint where the last person has
had their anxiety.
Yeah, and also with thosethousand generations, there's
actually quite a lot of trauma,even when you do a constellation
(53:04):
for someone.
It's a big trauma field ofthose thousand generations that
we have behind us.
It's a big trauma field ofthose thousand generations that
we have behind us, and they dokeep lining up for more healing.
The ancestors don't seem to be.
Speaker 1 (53:20):
We don't seem to run out of ancestors behind us that
need healing very quicklyno-transcript that's a very
(54:15):
powerful thing, like just to sayin that capacity, that and also
the you know constellations inprison and the work that you've
been doing is is just sopowerful.
So, dan, if you know, if peoplewant to get ahold of you, if
they want to connect with youand I hope this is the first of
many conversations that we havetogether because I'd love to
follow up with your work andjust continue to keep you posted
(54:36):
on, you know the work that I'mdoing as well If people want to
get a hold of you, or if they Iknow you do trainings and you're
a very powerful trainer andvery, very complete and diligent
trainer how do people get ahold of you?
Speaker 2 (54:53):
Again, I'll answer that in a second.
I want you know the nextconversation.
I want to hear more about your,uh, your facilitation and some
of the growth edges, uh thatthat you're having and how you
are, um, you know, using yourbody to access and and uh, that
would actually be a reallyinteresting conversation to uh
to hear more about, uh, the workthat you're doing and and, uh,
just you know, kind of go backand forth about that.
Speaker 1 (55:16):
Yeah, we'll definitely schedule another one
and and go deep in and do a deepdive into that conversation.
I'll hopefully it'll be it'llbe very, very soon that we can
have that conversation, so I'llI'll really be looking forward
to it.
Speaker 2 (55:29):
Great, I would love that.
So if people want to reach outto me, my website is
seeingwithyourheartcom and myemail is dan at
seeingwithyourheartcom, so I'measy to reach.
Sometimes I'm a little slowresponding because there's just
a kind of a flood come in.
I'm very earnest, well-meaning,but sometimes I have a hard
(55:54):
time keeping up.
And we have a training programgoing right now a chemical
constellations training andfacilitator certification that
Emily Blayfield and I are doingtogether.
We've been working together forover 12 years.
So and I are doing togetherWe've been working together for
over 12 years.
(56:14):
So Seen With your Heart is thetwo of us.
And I have a class Science,myth and Magic which just
started a few weeks ago.
I usually do that once or twicea year.
That's a 14-week class where Igo into a lot of the history, do
maybe 30 minutes of teaching,and then we go into the field
and we do collectiveconstellations around different
(56:35):
themes that are alive in thegroup and then we work globally.
So the next trip that we haveis to South Africa in May.
It's almost full.
It's going to be unbelievable.
It's 12 days.
We have a five day retreat in awild game preserve and we're
(57:00):
going to KwaZulu-Natal, which iswhere Bert Hellinger was in
South Africa.
We're going to go visit themonastery where he lived.
We're going to go visit themonastery where he lived.
We're going to go there.
But we're in that region Fivedays in a game preserve.
Emily and I we're going to beconstellating every day and then
(57:28):
also going on game drives wherethey put you in this open air
truck and then they drivethrough the game preserve and
all the big African animals areall there to see all them.
And then we have a seven-daytour five days and plus seven,
so it's 12 days, and we're goingto different sacred sites.
We're going to these ancientcaves and the river and we're
(57:50):
going to go to a village wherethere's a Sangoma, who's a
traditional Zulu shaman, andshe's going to receive us and
we'll do ceremony with her andon and on.
Speaker 1 (58:03):
Anyway, it's a whole oh, that's beautiful, that's an
opportunity of a lifetime.
Absolutely that's a once in alifetime kind of journey.
That's an opportunity of alifetime.
Absolutely that's aonce-in-a-lifetime kind of
journey.
Speaker 2 (58:13):
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (58:14):
And you do do.
Zoom constellations,constellations online.
Speaker 2 (58:19):
Right, and then I do.
Yeah, I have like a privatepractice where I work with
people individually.
I do mentoring, which is alittle bit more of a longer
program, but I do work with seapeople individually.
And Emily also travels around.
She's going to be in upstateNew York, she's going to Toronto
, does live events differentplaces.
(58:41):
So it's all.
Everything's on our website onthe events and the courses, so
you can learn everything aboutus there.
Speaker 1 (58:49):
Yeah, that's beautiful and that's beautiful,
and hopefully we can get youdown here in South Florida soon,
dan.
Speaker 2 (58:54):
Yeah, I'd love that.
Speaker 1 (58:56):
Yeah, that'd be great .
That'd be great.
Yeah, thank you so much.
I really appreciate it.
This has been a wonderfulconversation.
Speaker 2 (59:02):
I really enjoyed talking to you and looking
forward to learning more aboutyour work next time, john, yeah,
about your work next time, john.
Speaker 1 (59:07):
Yeah, thanks, dan, appreciate it.
Thanks for tuning in to theZulu One podcast.
If you found value in today'spodcast, please don't forget to
like, share and subscribe.
Your support means everythingto us and thank you for being
part of this journey.
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