Love and War: Ivan & Mariana Polic's Tale of Courage and Healing

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today on the Zoom OnePodcast, we have a special
treat Founders of the SystemicApproach Institute, explorers of
the Systemic Field, businessMastery Experts, ivan and
Mariana Pollock this is a realspecial episode Ice Cream

(00:23):
Healing in your Belinda,california.
The incredible, dynamic duo ofhealing, ivan Pollock and
Mariana Pollock.
Thank you guys for having me inyour home.
Very much appreciate it.
How are you guys doing?

Speaker 2 (00:39):
You're very welcome and that was a heck of an
opening, my friend.
I really enjoyed that and, yeah, it's a pleasure to have you
with us and I look forward towhat the world wants to emerge
today.

Speaker 3 (00:56):
We're so happy to have you here with us.
You're not lying when you'resaying ice cream.
I was just looking at those two, three actually.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
The night is young.

Speaker 3 (01:11):
I already had my ice cream.

Speaker 1 (01:14):
So today's been a kind of packed day of healing
and change and dynamics and weexperienced a, I would say,
another step in the evolution ofwhat family consolation brings,
a modality that I hadn'texperienced before, a version of

(01:35):
a modality that I love, andI've seen your work over the
years the first time that we metwas in 2018 in Miami Is that?

Speaker 2 (01:48):
right, yes, 18 fall of 18.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
So pre pandemic, pre a lot of change in the world and
you know, I very muchappreciated the modality, that,
the way that you conducted my,my consolation, because it was
quiet and it was completelyblind, so the interference and
static of the process wasminimal.

(02:13):
So tell me a little bit abouthow you guys came up with that.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
This is the biggest influence on this type of
facilitation was a lot of thevillage from Serbia.
We originally from Serbia, so alot of was a huge influence.
Our constellation journey fromfrom the very beginning we

(02:44):
eventually hosted, hosted himfor seven years in LA, building
a community here and doingtraining and very deep healing.
He's very unique, uniquefacilitator of really going deep

(03:06):
into silence and very deepmoments of the soul and spirit
and his style is veryminimalistic and we we adopted a
lot of, the lot of those thingsafter so many years.
So for what you experiencedtoday the biggest influence and

(03:30):
we're in the lineage of Ladovillage was indirect, direct
lineage of Bert Hellinger.
So he is one of the early,early students of Bert.
After the war in formerYugoslavia he he hosted and work

(03:51):
with Bert Hellinger veryclosely on kind of
reconciliation and healing inthat part of the world.
They hosted several peacecongresses in the kind of post
war days.
So we're very, very lucky andblessed to be in that kind of

(04:11):
lineage of that kind of view,perspective and philosophy of
what, what the work is and howit's, how it's best stewarded
facility.
So I hope that you will havesome opportunity to experience

(04:42):
Lado's work at some pointsomewhere in the world, and
that's the biggest influence onwhat you experienced today.

Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yeah, I would imagine that there's so much chaos and
the theme of war that silencemay be the best counterweight to
it.

Speaker 2 (05:15):
The heritage and inheritance of Serbia and Serbs.
We were positioned in that verystrategic kind of crossroads of

(05:35):
the east and west Europe where,you know, we were on the
crossroads of the Ottoman Empireand the Austro-Hungarian Empire
and those two empires foughtover our backs for 500 plus
years.
So we have a lot of history ofmany dominating aggressors

(06:08):
coming through our land and sothat's kind of those are
probably the roots of the civilwar that just happened a couple
decades ago.
It was hugely disruptive in ourlives and in our country and
all of that.
So Lado has been working for 20years now on this kind of

(06:35):
reconciliation and healing.
He started working right afterthe war and he met Bert
Hullinger and he felt that thiswas the way, this was the path
of reconciliation for our people, for that part of the world,

(07:00):
and that's kind of the historyof that.

Speaker 1 (07:05):
I mean those are complex themes that have many
generations of trauma that areboiled down to the present
dynamic.

Speaker 2 (07:20):
Yeah, and you know, and we're here today as a war in
Israel is just again slared upand we were, yugoslavia was a

(07:45):
multicultural, multilingual,small country, so we had three
different major religions, threedifferent types of people with

(08:07):
multiple different territoriesand the echoes of the past
conflicts there were many, manygenerations were involved in

(08:28):
that just sparked up andreignited again and we're now
healing again after it.
So that's kind of the historyand probably has a huge I mean
indirectly has a huge influenceon how we work and how Lado

(08:52):
worked, how he works, and howmuch it influenced us.
You speak about silence.
Yeah, with that, with large andstrong energies like that that
are involved, you want to givethem maximum expression and if

(09:12):
there's a lot of dialogue andmental chatter, you don't kind
of snuff out the space for thedeeper, deeper expression and a
deeper movement.
So that's the reason for thiskind of silent mainly silent and

(09:34):
minimalistic, allowing for thefield to really reveal what is
happening on a people level.

Speaker 1 (09:47):
Yeah, that when I was reading.
You know the systemicorganizational leadership, that
MA, you know the Japanese wordfor MA.
I just took, I read the bookand that just that concept, the
space that wants to be filledand how much integrity you have
to have as a facilitator not tofill it with your own crap.

Speaker 2 (10:12):
Yes, yes.
I mean that's having thediscernment to be present and
without an agenda, so beginner'smind, no mind, allowing for

(10:36):
maximum space and allowing forall, all energies and all
expressions to be to be included.

Speaker 1 (10:51):
Yeah that being the empty vessel of a facility
facilitation is.
You know you really got to beready for it.
It's not something that youknow.
I would encourage anybody tojump in too lightly because of
the responsibility and theintegrity that it takes to do.

Speaker 2 (11:11):
Yeah, it's not something casual and at the same
time, representing a lot inthese deeper spaces is the most
helpful thing, because you canpick up the pick up the felt

(11:32):
sense.
You can pick up facilitationlike a virus.

Speaker 1 (11:41):
Yes, tell me more about that.
So you literally let me getsome ice cream.

Speaker 2 (11:57):
So the Western education system wants to build
a step by step process that islinear, and first you do this,
then you do this, and then youdo that, and he has its

(12:21):
usefulness.
I think what we're dealing withhere is something something
different and a lot moreemergent, and, step by step, is
something that you would, youcan pick up cognitively, but the

(12:49):
no mind, you pick up as a virus.

Speaker 1 (12:54):
Yeah, you pick up along the way.

Speaker 2 (12:57):
You.
Actually, if you can relaxenough into surrendering control
, then you can get yourselfthere.
So different kinds of trainingsare helpful for this.
Being around someone who is,who has that level of integrity,

(13:23):
someone who has developed thatbeing around them and in their
process is really helpful.
So apprenticing with someonewho has the virus will increase

(13:45):
your chances of picking it up.

Speaker 3 (13:51):
Proximity.

Speaker 1 (13:52):
Proximity.
Yeah, I mean, it's almost likea tribal education.

Speaker 2 (13:59):
It's very experiential.
Yeah, so experiential learningis about the felt sense of the
process and the experience.

(14:19):
It's not.
It doesn't come through themind, it comes through the body.

Speaker 1 (14:27):
Yeah, it's emergent.

Speaker 2 (14:29):
So your body picks up the virus.
Your mind is a passenger onthat process.

Speaker 1 (14:38):
So you feel it before you know it.

Speaker 2 (14:41):
You feel it, and then you feel it again, and then you
feel it again, and then youstart to realize that, oh, I
know this, I just know this, mybody knows this, my awareness
recognizes this, and it's notfrom the mind, it's literally

(15:06):
from the body, from the feltsense.
And so this is very interestingconversation.
We're getting into this.
But yeah, that's very.
I didn't have the language forthis, so I got the virus first,

(15:33):
then I got more experience andeventually I have some language
for this, but the language camelast.

Speaker 1 (15:45):
We're late to that.

Speaker 2 (15:47):
A lot of times people , when they come into this work,
they want the language first.
But the language first is notthe virus.
The language comes out afteryou've already been infected.

Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yeah, I think I equate it more to dancing.
It's more like you know whenyou're dancing and you know when
you're not, and you know whenyou're talking about dancing but
you're not really dancing.
You have to dance and feel themusic and feel the ebb and flow

(16:26):
of the field and where that isand where it takes you and has a
momentum and has a give andtake to it that you can only
experience, like the wavescoming in and out.

Speaker 2 (16:39):
That's beautiful.
I like that.
I never heard that.
It's very, very beautiful.

Speaker 1 (16:43):
I just made it up.

Speaker 2 (16:45):
It's beautiful.
I like it.
It's similar to swimming.
Actually, you can talk aboutbeing wet.
Yeah, yeah.
But actually being wet is acompletely different experience.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:10):
So one of the things that happened to me after COVID
and started doing the groupsagain was like were all these
years just bullshit?
You know, like is it stillthere?
And then you get in a group andyou connect to it again and
it's like this damn thing isjust still there.

(17:31):
You know, like does that makesense what I'm saying?
It's like I want tointellectually not believe in it
Because I'm technical and mymind gets in the way of it.
And then it's like nope, justlike a hammer, if you go out and
put your hand out to grab thisintuition, it's there, whether

(17:54):
you believe in it or not.
Hmm.
Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 (18:00):
what I'm saying.
I think that's a total sense.
Yeah, very, very much resonates.
And when I first experiencedthe work, I had a very deep
experience.
I thought I think I spoke aboutit last time.
We spoke on the podcast here,but I wanted to.

(18:20):
I really tried hard to talkmyself out of it.
Yeah.
But I couldn't.
I didn't want to investigatefurther, but I tried quite hard.
Sometimes this kind ofskepticism can be helpful.
Yeah.

(18:41):
If you allow furtherinvestigation.
So if you keep investigating itcan be helpful.
But if you stop investigatingyou may be prematurely stifling
possibility.

Speaker 1 (18:58):
Yeah, like taking the off ramp before the real
healing happens.
Yeah, you can talk yourself outof it very quickly.
I mean you literally see inconsolation somebody get to the
door and be like nope, turnaround and leave.
You know, because the loyaltyis so strong.

Speaker 3 (19:14):
Yeah, also the speed at which the healing happens and
the results, sort of speak,that we see, it doesn't take
well, in some cases it takesrelatively short and we, until
we see some kind of atransformation and something,
the movement happened and we cansee it and we can feel it, but

(19:34):
a lot of times it doesn't.
It takes days, weeks, evenmonths before we actually and
the movement happens and there'sa result.
And we even forgot yeah, we dida consolation on it yeah.
And today's day of convenienceand speed and availability of
everything and appeal foreverything and meaning for

(19:58):
everything, it's very humblingto have to wait, to have to
embrace the slowness of themovement while you're in the
field and then, once you leavethe room of consolation, I mean
we're in the field all the time,yeah, but having that patience
and awareness and you know itwill come, and as long as I keep

(20:24):
working and as long as I honorwhat it was shown in the field
to me because that's anotherthing on top of the speed of
results, it's also that feelingof well, I had a theme, I had a
challenge, I did a consolationon it, I saw what happens, I'm

(20:47):
good, I can just go on with mylife, whereas it's not that
simple.
If you are most specifically,let's say, health, you know you
have a challenge and you come inand you do a consolation on it
and then, if you continue thesame rhythm of your life and the
same patterns and the samehabits, no amount of

(21:11):
consolations are going to helpyou detangle and resolve your
issue.
Yeah, because we have toparticipate in our own rescue.
Yeah, if you will.
I think I heard Ivan say that along time ago.

Speaker 1 (21:22):
Yeah, to participate in your own rescue, that's a
great line, yeah, yeah.
And then you know, there's somany consolations that you've
that one scene that somebody'spresented with a choice and they
just simply don't make it.
And that's okay too, you know,and not, you know, as a
facilitator or somebodyrepresenting, to force that

(21:43):
choice towards what you believeto be the best thing for that
person, because then you're infor a world of hurt.

Speaker 3 (21:50):
Right.
Well, that's where checking inwith yourself comes in handy.
Yeah, Because we ultimatelyknow the truth.
Yeah, and we ultimatelyinterpreted the way we see it
fit.
Yeah, and once we check in,it's a no, it's a no.

Speaker 1 (22:07):
It's a no.
If it's a no or a hell of a yes, Hell yes.
Hell yes.
So what was your first?
I mean, we've talked aboutIvan's first experience in
consolations and what that wentin and it's very similar to mine
, so it resonates at a deeplevel.
You know, I was like my parentsand my sister and my mom are in
a cult and I've talked aboutthis many times, but what was

(22:29):
your first experience like inthis work?

Speaker 3 (22:32):
Well, the very first experience was Ivan getting, I
believe, 11 books and readingthem all in a few weeks, because
he's very methodical.
Once he, you know, wants to tryout something and wants to
learn more and investigate, hedoes that.
So I read a couple of books andhe said you have to go and try.

(22:52):
So actually it was.
It wasn't the same facilitatorthat Ivan saw, but he was a very
close friend of hers and thatsame facilitator was there too.
So I went and it was.
I mean, I'm I don't shy awayfrom experiences, weird
experiences and so he wasn't,you know.

(23:15):
Wow, I'm apprehensive and I'manxious about going in.
I went in quite open and it wasa great experience in terms of
seeing something be revealed tome that I was worried about,
which was because, you know, Iimmigrated here.
Ivan and I came here togetherWell, he came here before me,

(23:38):
but then we came back togetherand I'm an only child and I kind
of left my parents and I always, even though I got to see them,
you know, once or twice a year,I always had that kind of
feeling but are they really okay, you know, with me leaving?
And so in the presentingconstellation it wasn't related

(24:03):
to them, it was related to meand my growth and development
and one, obviously, she put inboth parents and throughout the
whole constellation they werehand in hand and smiling and
very happy and looking on.
What a gift, and that was theintegration of the parents, and
then there was integration ofthe home country and the new

(24:25):
home country.
So it was just absolutely abeautiful experience and I was
like, yeah, this is it gave meso much peace.
I don't think ever, ever sincethat constellation, I don't
think I I got the same worrythat I had before.
So, that was a huge confirmationand so, yeah, that was my first

(24:47):
experience, and then it wasbeautiful.
And then the second experiencewas kind of scary, because I was
representing for somebody'ssister who was disabled, so I
literally could not feel partsof my body, and so nobody
prepares you for that.

Speaker 1 (25:03):
Yeah, nobody prepares you for that.

Speaker 3 (25:04):
You are actually going to feel it really really
deeply.
So I felt that and then I kindof paste myself and I said
you're okay, you're just intothe energy of this person, you
are serving her, you are servingher family.
Just do your best.
And that's how I kind of pastemyself and come myself.
There are certainly experienceson both spectrum, I want to say

(25:28):
, you know, and absolutelyamazing and kind of terrifying,
but that was knowing how to, Iguess, embrace it all, come in
your way and just keepremembering that you are in
service of the field and of thatclient and of that family at
that moment and just be gratefulthat you get to do so.

Speaker 1 (25:52):
So you know, I know somebody just doesn't jump into
constellations as their first,you know, foray into healing
right they start meditation oryoga or something.
So what were some of the thingsthat you had done or that you
guys had done before this work?

Speaker 3 (26:14):
Well, it was mostly mind related.
You know, mind and emotions.
We went through a Tony Robbinstraining.
We became trainers with theorganization, and it was an
amazing period of our lives whenwe needed that as individuals,
as parents and also as businessowners.

(26:35):
Everything that we've learnedwe brought back to the business
and shared it with our team.
We even sent some of them toour seminars because we
understood that it's actuallyvery important to master your
mind and your emotions.
And when I say master, I see itin a really good way, not a
positive way, but there wasalways something like yearning

(26:57):
for more, you know, yes, well,and even though the program
mentioned spirituality here andthere, there is no specific way
of embracing that and getting intouch with it.
And so we always wanted more.
And, you know, in between wekind of explored different
things.
And that's when theconstellation work in the family
, family constellations andsystemic work, you know, got

(27:20):
introduced to Ivan first andthen to me, and that was just
that's where the true journey oftransformation, I feel like,
began, because we get to divereally, really deep and see
what's behind the mind, what'sbehind the emotion, what's the.
That's just what the meaning is, what is the true, deep,
centuries ago cause that happenssomewhere in the lineage that

(27:44):
is written in our DNA.
So there were multiple otherprograms, you know, and
different mentors and differentthings that we've learned and it
was really helpful for ourdevelopment and I think this we
were the most consistent insystemic work for us as

(28:05):
individuals and then healing ourrelationship with our parents
and then introduces our sons toit and then also some of the
employees embraced it as well,really.
Yes, we actually had a Vlado thefacilitator.
We hosted him at our work andsome of our employees came to an
event as well.
Wow, and so you know what we'reenjoying and what we see really

(28:28):
helpful.
We want to, you know, spreadthe word, and I think this was
the most consistent one, wherewe found a way, also through
teachings of other you knowmentors like Jan Jakob Stam,
cecilia Oregó, how to get it tothe business world and our
company, and you know, use thatlens.

Speaker 1 (28:49):
So what's the?
Has there been resistance fromlike when you introduce this
into the business world of woowoo, versus it?
Because this is the reality.
You guys on the business side,numbers, business management are
so strong, you know it's likewhen we're in a group that's

(29:11):
mainly focused on the businessand it's numbers, numbers,
numbers, numbers, processes.
What are we fixing?
What are the top prioritiesissues?
Right, let's get, you know,very much into the numbers.
Trying to figure out the northof the business and systemic
work is a, you know, smallpercentage of that.
I mean, I think it informs thedecisions, but mainly hard
finance.

(29:31):
You know business acumen.
To me it's.
I want the world to merge, youknow, obviously.
But what's the resistance that?
Have you guys felt resistancebetween one and the other and
like, don't bring that, that woowoo crap into?
You know the business worldtype.

Speaker 2 (29:47):
You know, to put it colloquially, yeah, it's a, it's
a matter of a level ofconsciousness.
So some people are more openthan others and there there are
ways to, and Jacob's Tomprobably is one of the best of

(30:12):
merging those worlds and alsocreating an invitation for
people who have never heard ofconstellations and speaking in
very common sense language aboutwhat is systemic work, and that
they already know systemic work, that systemic work is already

(30:33):
within them, that it's hardwiredinto the nervous system.
Yeah.
Nature of life is systemic.
It's system within a systemwithin a system.
That's what, literally, thefabric of the universe is built
on.
So people even then never heardof the work.
They are human and they havethe pre.

(31:00):
They have the pre knowledgealready within them.
Our job is not to teach them.
Our job is to remind them thatthey already know this.
Yeah.
And so so, a lot of, a lot of, alot of the a lot of the

(31:25):
difficulty around that is wheredo you belong?
Where is your loyalty?
Are you, would you allowyourself to belong in both
places?

Speaker 1 (31:42):
Oh, okay.

Speaker 2 (31:47):
And so are you.
Are you loyal to the systemicsystem, to the constellation
system, to the?
Because there is a codex ofbehavior and belief and

(32:10):
philosophy and point of viewthat the systemic world is loyal
to.
And then there is the point ofview and philosophy and all of
that same stuff on the businessside and the practical side, and
so both are very useful.
And could you allow yourself tobelong in both worlds?

(32:35):
And because you do Like youbelong, like you are a consumer,
you are maybe a producer, youknow if you're living, you're
producing something for to beexchanged, for your livelihood
or whatever it is you're doingin life, so you are already a

(32:58):
part of it.
But then we create this kind ofartificial.
I'm not sure that I like that.
I like this more.
So I'm going to include thismore, but I'm going to exclude
that a little bit.
And so if you can allowyourself to belong and then if

(33:22):
you can open, open more to allparts of life, then you can be
more whole rather thancompartmentalized.
And you know, these differentworlds have they each have a

(33:47):
boogeyman.

Speaker 1 (33:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yes, they each have a boogeyman.
Yes, so, that's a great way toput it.

Speaker 2 (33:55):
So they're actually systemic enthusiast,
constellation enthusiast.
Yeah, put their boogeyman inthe business world.

Speaker 1 (34:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yeah, they actually projected, projected over there.
Yeah.
And then there are businesspeople who will project their
boogeyman in the world.
I've never said that this waybefore, but yeah, like things we

(34:28):
don't want to face.
Yes.
We put in that other world.

Speaker 1 (34:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
From the from the systemic sideis be like I don't want to do
with my emotions.
From the you know,constellation side is like I
don't want to deal withauthority.
Yeah, it's basically right.

Speaker 2 (34:47):
Yeah, so authorities, one perpetrators and another.

Speaker 1 (34:53):
Yeah.
Perpetrator victim perpetratoryeah.

Speaker 2 (34:56):
So a lot of, a lot of those, many of those dynamics
have the live in the world ofopposites.
Yes, so what is your capacityto allow for the opposites?

(35:20):
The higher your capacity toallow for that, the less, the
less hijacking happens, becauseif you allow it and you include
it, it doesn't have to includeit self over the top of you.
Yeah, and systems want to bewhole and they want to be.

(35:43):
They want system survivalmechanism of systems, as the
second survival mechanism thatBert Ellinger gave us in his, in
his legacy, is that systemswant to be whole and they want
to reveal everything that istrying to be hidden by

(36:09):
individuals.
So one of the examples is thatyou know, you hear about these
politicians that maybe theycrusaded for 40 years against
drugs and prostitution and then,lo and behold, you turn on the

(36:30):
news and that model citizen thatwas picketing for that,
whatever their cause was, endedup on drugs in the in a place
you know are taking prostitutionand creating a huge scandal.

(36:53):
And then you're wondering, likehow does that make sense?
Like what is up?
With that.
And what is up with that isthat what you deny and resist
verbally and publicly tends tocome in through the back door
and include itself.

(37:14):
You literally get hijacked bythe system because the system
wants to show the truth, wantsto include the the side of
things that you are rejecting.

Speaker 1 (37:27):
So it's a funny way of balancing things out.

Speaker 2 (37:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So if they're, you know, andthis comes out, comes around
across all kinds of dimensions,in the business world, in the
healing world, in all kinds ofworlds, whatever you are
avoiding is running underneaththe surface.

Speaker 1 (37:59):
Yeah, there was a saying that just that I just
read that says the magic of whatyou're looking for is hidden
and what you were trying toavoid.
Correct, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (38:08):
And also the.
The concept of looking atbusinesses and companies in an
alternative way let's say I'mtelling it to numbers or any
other indicators is the old wayof old school of doing business
is relatively new, if you thinkabout it.
Only maybe a couple of decadesago we started talking about
purpose and culture and needs ofthe employees and you know all

(38:36):
these and because if you, if youlook at it before, when there
was a problem, you looked at itthrough numbers, not through
under my numbers.
They're still very, verypowerful, but they're also
affected by the other, theseother things that are human
produced and human related.
So you either throw money atthe problem or you take the,

(38:56):
take it away, cut it out,whereas there are different
dynamics that we don't see, theinvisibles that are affecting
everything that is in business.
So even now you know you woulddo an exercise in the company
that is related to team andpurpose and and you still have

(39:18):
people saying, huh, why do wehave to do this?
Can I just go back to work.
And then let along going evendeeper to, to find the cause.
So what we us, we do know, aboutsystemic work and all the other
modalities.

(39:39):
We just need to be persistentand make the language common and
simple enough so that we dospeak about those factors that
are invisible the dynamics andthe patterns.
It's not being, it's notthreatening to the business
owner or their team.

(39:59):
It's not undermining whatthey've done.
It is also not undermining youas an advisor or a facilitator
who's coming in, because thatthat's what happens.
You know that that's where thebusiness that I feel like the
biggest resistance is not likeget away from me, I don't
believe in that, it's more kindof like sitting there and

(40:21):
smirking and just you know, inthe whole negative aura and that
will be the biggest resistance.
But it if we continue.
Because if you think about itand we discussed it a couple of
times at work with um in ourprevious company if you look at
one company, especially if itwas founded by an immigrant, we

(40:46):
counted once and it was close to50 systems, 50 FIVOS systems in
place, working and having to beacknowledged in our company.
So you're talking about thecountry of origin, the economics
, the politics, the war, thethis and that and the other.

Speaker 1 (41:07):
So for people that don't know, what can you tell?
Talk a little bit about thecompany.

Speaker 2 (41:13):
Um, yeah, so I'm, I'm , I'm going to give you that
story, and you asked theprevious question, which was
about what is the resistance?
The world is addicted tocertainty, and business world is
addicted to certainty even more, and so if you are, if you're

(41:38):
coming in as a, as the unknownelement, the, the people in
control, are going to resist theunknown.
So you, you need to make it assafe as possible to engage in

(42:05):
some exploration, and the, the,the recent language that we're
using, is where we are theexplorers of natural occurring
phenomenon that are happening inyour organization, in
organizations in general, and sothe naturally occurring things.
We are going to explore thenature of your organization,

(42:30):
explore the nature of the marketthat you're in so that you can
have a more intimaterelationship without the natural
order of your marketplaceactually operates.
And if you can have a moreintimate, closer relationship

(42:55):
with the reality of how it is,you become an agent of evolution
and progress within theenvironment.
And the more in touch withreality of how it actually is,
the more co-creative you can bewith it, and the less, the more

(43:20):
out of touch you are with how itis, or you're denying things,
or you're trying to just be inthe certainty of it, the less in
touch and the less lessinfluential you can be.
And so with that kind of uhlanguage you can, people will be

(43:41):
interested in being in touchmore with the reality of how it
is underneath the surface.
They're not, they don't, theydon't usually look there, and so
if you give them a chance tolook there, they can get, they
can get self informed.
And if it's about themexploring, they will be a lot

(44:02):
more open.
And if you, if it's about youtelling yes, so you give them
their experience and you givethem their autonomy and you give
them their choice and you leavethe rest with them.
So that's that's what I wouldsay about that and what we did

(44:25):
in terms of our business.
We ran an aerospacemanufacturing company and we we
made parts for commercialairplanes and military
applications, high precisionmetal housing parts for
electrical connectors and fluidtransfer parts, and it was a.
It was a 35 year old business,a legacy business, and it was a

(44:51):
very demanding environment andvery, very pressure filled
environment.
We made parts 24, seven formany, many years, and so that
was a.
Once we got involved in systemicwork.
That was kind of like alaboratory and part of the
reason why we got in it so deepis that we had a lot of dynamics

(45:15):
or we didn't know what to dowith it, and systemic work was
what enabled us to completelyturn, get more in touch with
reality, get more in touch withthe reality of our people and
the organization as a whole andgradually co-create with them a

(45:37):
much healthier environment and amuch more progressive
environment where people couldgrow and the organization could
grow, and eventually we freedourselves up, we empowered the
organization and the team to toovertake and take, take

(46:00):
responsibility and ownership ofthe process and all the results
and all of these things.
And then eventually, once, oncethe team was running things,
eventually we decided to sellall together because we felt
like this part of the journey iscomplete.
We felt like this is.
We played our part in thisprocess, in this, in this arena,

(46:28):
and it's time for us to sharesome of the things that we
discovered in the, in thelaboratory, about 10 years, 10
years of learning, systemic work, learning systemic principles,
getting the felt sense of howthings are what they are,
recognizing things from thecircle, the sacred circle, and

(46:51):
seeing some of those things,getting the same similar felt
sense in the business side.
It was a huge integration andfor many years I would tell
myself dude, you are weird,you're strange.

(47:12):
We would do Saturday andSaturday and Sunday, deep
ancestral healing, the lovedripping off the walls and
incredible depth and silence andsacredness.
On Monday I would I would meetwith a representative for Boeing
and he would be a.
It would be quite a differentconversation.

(47:34):
So somehow over our journey wewere always kind of like the
integrative people.
Our early experience ofconstellations even is
illustrated with this, becausewe have Vlado as a, as a kind of
a mentor teacher who doesn'tspeak at all, and then we had

(47:55):
Gary Stewart, who was presenthere in LA at that time.
He was very, very influentialand he doesn't ever close his
mouth during the during theconstellation.
Yeah.
Somehow I was learning from bothof these people and I had to, I
had to allow for the, for thegenius of both, and so,

(48:18):
similarly, you know the businessworld and the constellation
world.
That was a similar kind ofdichotomy and somehow it's just
always putting me in that kindof stretch, stretch zone between
worlds.
And, yeah, we're, we're, we'restill, we're still doing it and

(48:39):
we're finding a way to introducesystemic work into the world
without it being threatening andwithout it being strange and
with with it being natural and akind of a natural logists,
natural logists approach.
We are studying nature and weare exploring nature and we're

(49:02):
exploring our nature and we'reexploring the nature around us.
We're exploring our innernature and we're exploring our
organizational nature andmarketplace nature, and so, in
that sense, we're trying totrying to make it more
digestible and we made adecision that we will we will

(49:27):
proactively and intentionallyspeak to the nonconverted.
Okay.
The nonconverted meaning thatpeople who haven't ever heard of
it.
Yeah.
And we did a whole big all, allday, every day, during the
pandemic.
Yeah, yeah 200 hours oforiginal content challenges

(49:52):
courses.
It was incredible and at theend of that we felt like we were
.
We were jamming out with thechoir in church and it was
incredibly beautiful and werealized, like you know, we're
seeing the same same faces inhere.

(50:14):
It's great, we love it.
It's a community, is warm, andwe felt like we need to go out
into the community To continueto expand, expand the choir, if
you would yeah and so that's,that's kind of part of the part
of the decision that we made.
We ended up selling the sellingthe aerospace business at the

(50:34):
beginning of last year and then,yeah, we're, we're still Still
in the process of Emptying,emptying the 20 years of
Aerospace stress and aerospacepatterns and those are big

(51:01):
systems those are huge systemsand we were very involved and it
was Lots, a lots of differentdynamics that we were dealing
with and so we wanted to emptyout of those before we actually
really Made a bigger, a biggerplay in the direction of the

(51:23):
systemic approach Institute andwe're just starting to do more
and more of those things.
And during that kind ofemptying I I Got into deeper
meditation and the past and ourmeditation and the silence
meditation and silence retreat.
So in the, what is it now about?

(51:45):
In the last 15 months I thinkI've been in silence for about
Three to four months Of completesilence, the noble kind of
silence where there's no,there's no interaction.
Oh, my god, at all is this youand you and the and the inner,

(52:07):
inner exploration?
So I feel like that has givenme a whole new lens.
That is really, really.
It is giving me language alsoand even deeper sense of the
systemic work from thatexperience, because there is a

(52:32):
particular kind of body of Workand the past and a type of
meditation called the ninebodies of consciousness, in
which you actually explore thenine different Dimensions of
consciousness.
And when we're in the field andconstellation work and stomach

(52:53):
work, those all blend they blendin life anyway.
Yeah but these, not theseexplorations of the, these nine
dimensions Is giving me really amore, more felt sense and more
precision around what, where,where are we exploring, what is

(53:13):
showing up, what is happening.
So, if you, if you put yourselfin a space where you're
listening for this, for so a lotin silence, your, your
sensitivity gets refined Aroundthat.
So, you, it's been really very,very healing and very Emptying

(53:36):
and and it feels like another,like you know, during those
times when I was on a Sundayfacilitating in a Monday meeting
with with Boeing, I waswondering, I was like, dude, you
seems like you're being cookedin a slow cooker For some reason
.
I can't pinpoint what thereason is and it feels like that

(53:58):
now as well, like the moresilence I go into and the more
Emptying am I, I'm doing itfeels like another, like, oh,
you're being prepared again forsomething really, and you know,
my, my sense is that I almostfeels like I need to download
something, but in order todownload it, I need to be really

(54:21):
, really quiet again to clearthe hard drive.

Speaker 1 (54:24):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (54:25):
Prepare the, prepare the car driver, empty the hard
drive to be able to.

Speaker 1 (54:29):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (54:31):
So then yeah, and then also not only receive it,
but actually be able to show youthat Not only receive it but
actually be able to share it,which means one foot in both of
those worlds again, theintegrative bridging, the
Meeting, the meeting of theworld.
So that's, that's just a littlebit of our, of our current

(54:52):
journey, and this, actually,next Sunday we're doing a mini
reunion, or the all day, everyday, systemic work, all day,
every day.
That was our kind of During thepandemic, a huge explosion of
creativity and you know wegathered a kind of global,
global community.

(55:13):
It was, it was beautiful,jamming out choir.
So we're actually doing athree-year.
Your reunion on October 15th oh, noon is gonna be a three hour,
a jam fest, and we actuallypulled the community on.
What would they like to see andthe big the most votes was

(55:34):
gotten by Everyone wanting toexplore Sacred relationships
okay and how we can have loveand freedom With our parents,
partners and children.
And so the love and freedom, thetall order.

(55:56):
It kind of rubs up against the,against the loyalty and and and
all of these things and.
But ultimately, true love isfree and freedom is loving and
so, if we can, that wholereunion is gonna be a like a

(56:17):
deep exploration, veryexperiential.
How much love do you dare Allow?
And then, how much freedom doyou dare take Simultaneously in
your sacred relationships, andhow you can honor, honor

(56:37):
people's destinies, even ifthey're part of your sacred
relationships?
They're the hardest, hardestone, or especially when they're
when they're when they'reworking against themselves in
some way, and you have to letthem.
They're hurting themselves andyou have to let them, you must
let them.
Yeah, yeah and that's that's.

(57:00):
We call that the honoring oftheir destiny.
Yeah, it's their destiny, andTaking away somebody's pain May
not be the most helpful thingfor them, because they are here,
maybe, to experience that pain,and a certain amount of it,

(57:21):
yeah, is required for their, forthe fuel of their next
evolution, and if you, if youdecrease the pain for them,
they're not gonna have enoughfuel.
Yeah.
So you gotta be really reallysensitive or not not meddling,

(57:47):
and you can open the door, butyou cannot be pushing people
through it.

Speaker 1 (57:52):
So tell me a little bit about loyalty.
What is it in the systemic?
Context.

Speaker 2 (58:04):
Interesting.
I never answered it this way,but it it's.
It's a young form of love, oh,like an immature form of love.

Speaker 1 (58:10):
It's a it's a young.

Speaker 2 (58:16):
Idealistic.
It's a young, idealistic naive.
I will be on your side.
That will be my show of love,wow that's big.

(58:44):
I never said that like thatbefore, so and that's a huge,
huge part of what we're gonnaexplore on Sunday.
Hmm, that.
Piece about taking a side.

(59:06):
That is, when you take a side,you Literally limit yourself and

(59:33):
you take away Half of reality.

Speaker 1 (59:38):
Yeah, you limit yourself from experiencing the
whole.

Speaker 2 (59:41):
Correct.
So you literally are Advocatingfor Partial experience of life.

Speaker 1 (59:54):
Wow, geez man Getting deep on a Sunday.

Speaker 2 (01:00:02):
I think we better have some ice cream.

Speaker 1 (01:00:08):
You know, I just I have this, this thought and in
some way that you know, loyaltyis one of the strongest forces
on the planet.
That loyalty will provide Inadherence to something that does
not have logic Right, that willadhere even if it costs us our

(01:00:34):
lives.
Out of loyalty, we willsacrifice everything and that
young love is extremelydangerous.
You know, that's the.
I Think that in some capacity,the amplification of our
disorders right now are based onthat loyalty and based on that

(01:00:57):
unresolved trauma that's pushingus towards the system kind of
completely going into chaos.

Speaker 2 (01:01:13):
Yeah, I think Thomas, who will, has done a lot of
work around the collectivetrauma and there is a pile up on
all of unresolved trauma yeah.

(01:01:35):
Okay, and so the trauma is likea dam of it piling up, yeah, the
unprocessed, unfelt, undigested, unmetabolized under the
surface, and the pile up is epic, yeah, and then, because it's

(01:02:00):
so much and so well, mean thatpeople don't know how to deal
with it and so they run, theyrun away from it into their
phones and their distractionsand their comforts, and they do
that there's, there's furtherpiling, yeah, so there's further

(01:02:22):
unresolved trauma debtCommunity compounding
compounding.
Yeah, correct, compound.
So that that happens at thenational level.
Yeah, it happens at themarketplace level, it happens at
the organizational level, ithappens at the family level.
Yeah, happens at all theselevels happens at the national

(01:02:43):
level.

Speaker 1 (01:02:45):
Evolutionary force.

Speaker 2 (01:02:46):
Yes, so across all these Russian dolls of systems.

Speaker 1 (01:02:52):
Russian dolls of systems.

Speaker 2 (01:02:53):
Yeah it's permeating all of it, and sometimes the
largest systems are showing upin our field, in our lives, like
the larger disturbances, thethe piled up trauma Shows up in
our living room.
Yeah and it's it's collectivetrauma showing up on our

(01:03:17):
individual and family lives andsometimes we Identify with it.
We, we personalize theimpersonal.
Yeah and so then, then we're weare misidentifying the cause
and Adding to our problems.

(01:03:40):
Yeah, yeah not like we don'thave enough.
Yeah, we are just.
You know, we are hoardingsystemic trauma.

Speaker 1 (01:03:54):
There's a saying that I love is like when logic is
not present, entanglement tounresolved trauma is it's like
if you identify as a victim, youalways find a perpetrator and
just like, like you said,hoarding unresolved trauma and
you just, you know, like Ididn't get enough, and then you
just, you're just piling on andhoarding and grabbing as much as
you can for it.
It's no way to live.

Speaker 2 (01:04:21):
It's tough.
So you know the first aid thatwe have come up for ourselves.
It's, it's interesting thehealthier your nervous system,
the more potential for hijackingthere is.
So the healthier that your yournervous system, the more

(01:04:44):
potential for hijacking correct,because really the pile up of
trauma is looking for For anervous system to process it.
So if you are walking around asa healthy nervous system, you
are a target for all kinds ofenergy that wants to, wants to,
wants to get a body to processthrough it.

(01:05:06):
And so the first aid that we'vecome up with, just Organically
here in the family and thishappens multiple times a day it
would look at, look, each lookat each other, especially when,
like, unexplained anxiety showsup or Fear of some kind, or

(01:05:33):
anger Come in or whatever it is.
Many times we just look at eachother and we say, if we
remember to ask ourselves, weask is this mine?

Speaker 1 (01:05:46):
Okay, so it's a powerful question is a sim, it's
a very simple question, butit's very sneakily powerful and
if we can ask it ourselves.

Speaker 2 (01:05:57):
It's awakening in the moment because even to just ask
that question, you, you had tobe present.
You had to be present toremember to ask and you had to
be present.
Oh, you had to be present toremember to ask.
And if you did remember to ask,that means that part of you was

(01:06:19):
present and aware that this isnot mine and I could ask the
question to remind myself.
It's when I get.
Most of the time it's not mine.
Yeah, so when you get theanswer no, this is not mine, you
have more elbow room to operatebecause you're not
personalizing.

Speaker 1 (01:06:40):
Yeah, you can, just let it, let it go, you can, you
can yeah you can release it.

Speaker 2 (01:06:44):
You can, you can allow it to go through you
rather than getting stuck on it.
We had getting it stuck on you.
Yeah and when we don't rememberbecause this is a daily
occurrence we we ask, we askeach other a is that yours?
So it's kind of like having agreat partner like Like I do is

(01:07:07):
is such a luxury of Havingsomeone, someone else, put it on
record To remind you when you,when you get hijacked to, to
remember that you know, to knowwhat is what and what is yours.
And I Want to say one morething Many times, the healthiest

(01:07:39):
thing to do would be not todeal with it.
So I got to deal with that.
That's a big thing in the worldI, I need to deal with that.
Okay, and so if you hijack by alarger system, you may or may

(01:08:00):
not need to deal with that.
Yeah, yeah he may not bedealable.
Yeah he might be the healthiestthing to just Acknowledge it
and let it pass through yeahrather than dealing with it and
dealing with it might actuallybe.
You deal with fleas, you youcatch him.

Speaker 1 (01:08:23):
Yeah, yeah, or you know, make your bed.
Correct you know you'd be likeokay, I can't deal with the
meteor that's hurt hurtlingtowards the planet, but I can
make sure that my kids arehealthy and I can, you know,
tend to my house.

Speaker 2 (01:08:41):
Yeah, and that's the, that's the, that's the piece
that that came to us when wewere doing a lot of teaching.
How can we be a healthy cell inthe body of humanity?
Yeah and Healthy cells arelocal.

Speaker 1 (01:09:01):
Yes, healthy cells are local.
Yeah, and healthy cells buildmomentum.

Speaker 2 (01:09:07):
Yes, and healthy cells are good neighbors yeah,
and they're good Exchangers oflove and energy yeah, in their
immediate environment, yeah.
So you don't?
You don't see a liver celltraveling to the heart?
Nope.

Speaker 1 (01:09:22):
Yeah, liver cells, do liver cells stuff yeah and so
that's.

Speaker 2 (01:09:27):
That's kind of yeah, there, there may be a lot of
things that it's not ours todeal with yeah and if we could
be healthier more locally, wecan then radiate out and
Overflow with our goodness, yeah, in a healthy way, yeah, that
that can be actually moreinfluential than grappling

(01:09:51):
grappling with what is an hour.

Speaker 1 (01:09:52):
Yeah, when things are weak and not control.

Speaker 2 (01:09:55):
Yes, if you if you wrestle a 500 pound gorilla.
Yeah yeah, I think you're justResigning to a lot of pain.
Yeah and it's.
It's kind of a pain with no, nopayoff.
Yeah at all so yeah.
That's.

Speaker 1 (01:10:15):
That's a lot of meandering if we just so tell me
a little bit.
I love your explanation aboutsystems you know, I've used that
a million times and theindividual consciousness, the
consciousness of the, of thegroup, and then the evolutionary
force.

Speaker 2 (01:10:35):
So this is a, this is a legacy that was left by by
bird howling her to us.
This is something that welearned from young yakuza, and
this is what young yakuza sharedin.

(01:10:58):
What were the two legacies thatbird howling her left us?
And so the one legacy that hehas left us, upon which
constellation modality sitsDirectly, is the whole thing of

(01:11:20):
Representative perception.
Okay, so he, somehow, he, herecognized that, he observed it,
he, in a phenomenological way,he kept up, he kept rubbing up
against it and he actually, in afelt sense, did a, made it

(01:11:42):
known to himself that we canconnect to Inner parts of us,
and then we can connect witheach other, that we can
represent inner parts of eachother, and so Externalizing how
in a world became possible torepresentative perception, so

(01:12:04):
representatives, using theirperception, could tune into
different aspects of our innerworlds, and then we can observe
that and we can have it informus, so that what became possible
is that we could, we could seeour inner worlds in three
dimensions in front of us.

Speaker 1 (01:12:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:12:23):
That previously was not something that was possible.
So that's, that's the biglegacy of bird howling her that
he has left us.
And then Principles of systemicwork Are the other legacy.
That so, out of the 40 years ofexploration, in a

(01:12:44):
phenomenological way showing upto the moment fresh, over and
over Beginners mind, no mind,coming into the awareness of
space and time, and I Felt sense.
Over and over he started tonotice patterns and he started

(01:13:07):
to notice Principles thatunderlined behavior and relating
humans in human systems, familysystems, and then, over time,
he was able to Name theseprinciples.
And then, when, when onefacilitates, is following the

(01:13:31):
principles in with therepresentative perception, and
then Constellation process comesalive.
It comes very, very informedand Principles by themselves can
be applied outside of theconstellation environment.
Yeah, absolutely and so youdon't have to have a

(01:13:53):
constellation to do systemicwork and Our whole you know
pandemic thing that when we didit online, we did something
called the systemic work all day, every day.
How can you, how can you dosystemic work, how can you bring
in, bring the sacredness of thecircle to your daily life,
bring it into your living room,into your lively, into your

(01:14:15):
parenting, into your, into yourwhole life, into your career,
business, whatever you mighthave?
So that was a huge thing for usand it's still.
It's still a very huge thing.
Why, why do we decide to dothat?
We decided to do that becauseGoing in the sacred circle Once

(01:14:39):
every couple weeks or longerjust felt inadequate, like it
felt not enough, like like wegot.
We got these Big things we'redealing with in regular life
that we needed more like, weneeded more experience, we
needed and we were longing.

(01:14:59):
I was longing for that kind ofdepth and sacredness, not just
every few weeks, but every day,and and so that's the reason why
we did that.
So circle back to theprinciples.
Fairhalinger called outmultiple, multiple principles of

(01:15:20):
systemic work, and one of thosebig pieces that he left us as a
legacy was the three survivalmechanisms and, interestingly
enough, the the first survivalmechanism is the survival of the
individual or the unit, and sowhen individuals are looking for

(01:15:42):
to survive whatever Difficultdynamic or trauma they have
faced, things that they werevery overwhelming or shocking to
their system and their nervoussystem, their individual being,
how, how, what that Unitsurvival mechanism does is

(01:16:04):
actually hides, hides things,conceals things in order to
survive.
Yeah so it if someone wasVictimized in some way.
There is a kind of very deepsurvival thing that I better
hide this, because if I hide itmy chances of survival are

(01:16:29):
higher, rather than if I blowthe whistle.
If I blow the whistle on thisit's even more danger for me,
it's even more shocking andoverwhelming.
So let me just kind ofencapsulate my own trauma and
hide it so that I can surviveand not be excluded from the
group yes, so not take further,further danger, increase chances

(01:16:53):
of more danger.
And so that's what kind of thatunit survival mechanism?
Hides things.
Then the second survivalmechanism is the systemic
survival of the whole system,system as a whole.
And, interestingly enough, whatthis survival mechanism?
He wants to include all, allparts of it, the things that

(01:17:17):
were hide, hidden by theindividuals.
It wants to reveal.
Yeah, it wants to include whathas been kept secret, what has
been hidden, what has beenCovered over.
Survival of the system demandsit be included, and so then it,

(01:17:38):
the system, blows the whistle onthe individuals, and, and so
you can notice how those two areoperating Simultaneously.
But they have completelydifferent purposes.
Yeah, and so that's you can.
You can really understand whypeople hide stuff, and you can

(01:17:59):
really understand the the natureof the revealing.
Like, the more you're tryingsomething to hide, somehow it
leaks.
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah and itleaks because of that second
survival mechanism.
Yeah and finally, the third.
Third survival mechanism is theevolutionary force and it Is

(01:18:23):
responsible for destabilizingSystems that have been, that
have reached its destiny.
So, when the system gets in.

Speaker 1 (01:18:37):
That's hard to hear when the system gets ingrained
and it's no longer.

Speaker 2 (01:18:44):
It's past its due date.
Yeah so one way to look at thiswar that just started yesterday
.
There was a stagnant system.
Yeah, that how they weredealing with the underlying
conflict.

(01:19:04):
That could no longer contain thethings and the system needs to
evolve, and the evolutionaryforce will disrupt systems in a
very impersonal way, and so itwon't care that it's a war, that
it's a peace, that, whatever ittakes.

(01:19:26):
Okay, so COVID was anevolutionary force mechanism to
destabilize the systems as theywere, so it literally put the
whole entire world on pause.
It was a huge destabilizingforce.

Speaker 1 (01:19:43):
Like a wildfire.
Yes, evolutionary forceCleaning up the brush and the
tender, and yeah.
Correct, so now it doesn't careabout the deer and the little
squirrels and stuff.
Just yeah, yeah, veryimpersonal, it doesn't care.

Speaker 2 (01:19:57):
And so it's very kind of.
It could be very brutal, butit's required because those
stagnant old systems that arepast their due date, they will
not.
They will go on forever.
Yeah.
They will go on forever in ahealthy way.
And so the evolutionary forceis like no, we are going to

(01:20:22):
continue to evolve, and if wehave to burn this thing down to
do it, we will.
Yeah.
And so all those three thingsoperating simultaneously is what
?
What Bert Hellinger left.
This is a legacy, so it's oneof the deepest, deepest things

(01:20:44):
that Bert Hellinger gave us.
So I want to thank Jan JakobStam hugely for bringing this
the way he does it and sharingthis with with the world, and
keeping the legacy legacy aliveof this, because it's, I think,

(01:21:05):
one of the lenses that we, ashumanity, are going to need More
and more, the bigger the chaosthat we're going to be causing.

Speaker 1 (01:21:17):
Yeah, that's yeah, yeah, one of the things that I'm
thinking is like you know how,for me it's always been like
before I'm going to do a bigmovement, like life throws
resistance right and so andwe've talked about system, what
system and community is, and youknow the systems Propensity to

(01:21:43):
stay the same right, and to mewhat's happening now seems like
a systemic immunity for it tostay down the same path when
we're on the cusp of some change, like monumental change at

(01:22:03):
acknowledgement of this type ofwork.
Maybe I'm crazy, maybe I'm inthe matrix and I'm the you know,
star of it and the video gameor whatever you want to call it,
but it just seems so odd thatI'm in this weird position
talking about this work in thiscontext, and maybe it's a bias
of like, my view, right Of like,but yeah, does this just happen

(01:22:26):
to be that the world revolvesaround me?
You know all those thoughtscome in.
But to really look at it fromthat, from that perspective, be
like I'm looking at it from thislens, from the lens of this
work, is like how, how do youguys wrestle with that
responsibility?
I guess?

Speaker 2 (01:22:47):
Um, you, you started to talk about.
Systems want to be the same.
They want to keep going, so theoil industry isn't going to

(01:23:07):
disrupt itself.
Yeah.
They're very invested incontinuing their current
position.
So evolutionary force andagents of change are going to be

(01:23:30):
needing to disrupt this, and soour position is not to look for
trouble.
There is plenty of troublelocally.
Yeah.
And so not to look for troubleelsewhere but focus here and now

(01:23:54):
, locally, in our sphere ofinfluence within our own selves,
within our own family and ourown work, and sphere of
influence that we have and, uh,uh, we need, with a lot of

(01:24:14):
humility, uh, that accepts thesmall amount of influence that
we have as an individual, soactually embracing our

(01:24:36):
ordinaring embracing ourordinaring.

Speaker 1 (01:24:39):
Yeah, that was a big theme for the weekend, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:24:43):
So how can we embrace the fact that we are, we are
one human, and how can we cocreate with life In uh, in a

(01:25:03):
wholesome manner, co createwithin the nature of a human
life, um knowing that we operatein the impermanent universe.
Yeah.
And within an impermanent Alife, so um.

(01:25:32):
The law of impermanence meansthat everything rises and
everything passes away.
That includes us, and so umthese large dynamics, uh,
evolutionary force will disruptthem.

Speaker 1 (01:25:53):
Nobody, nobody gets out alive.

Speaker 2 (01:25:55):
Yes, None of us are getting out of here alive.
So we only have so much qualitytime remaining.
And within that quality time,how can we be the most present,
how can we be the most availablehealthy cell For the

(01:26:19):
overflowing goodness and healthof the of the human species?

Speaker 1 (01:26:25):
So shifting gears a little bit and, if I can go get
personal, how does um, how doesthis look in in your guys'
relationship?
It's like leading from systemsand what that brings out in each
other, like I've been.
I've been married for a week.

(01:26:48):
We're going to.
We just celebrated our 12thyear.

Speaker 3 (01:26:51):
Congratulations.

Speaker 1 (01:26:51):
Thank you, and you know more than anything.
My kids have brought up, youknow, a mirror and my spouse, my
wife, has brought up the mirror.
It's like how do you lead yourmarriage from a systemic lens?

Speaker 2 (01:27:10):
Yeah, um, we have our 25th anniversary coming up in
April.
Congratulations, thank you.
Thank you, april 28th Aprilcelebration.

Speaker 1 (01:27:23):
So I've I've heard it's a very special, interesting
, creative recreative yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:27:32):
So we got married during the actual bombing of
Yugoslavia.
So literally a whole, a big oldstory for the grandchildren and
like an epic epic quest ofsorts.
So I'm not sure we can tellthat story right now, but maybe

(01:27:57):
briefly.
Um, I was playing professionalsoccer.
Mariana was was a sports TVreporter for the local club that
I was playing in.
So that's how we met Little did?

Speaker 1 (01:28:11):
she know?

Speaker 2 (01:28:15):
It was a very fortunate thing because I gave
an interview and that was I was,I was.
That was what got me over theedge.

Speaker 1 (01:28:24):
Otherwise, you noticed by the, this was never
going to happen.

Speaker 2 (01:28:28):
So a couple of smart words was what did it?

Speaker 1 (01:28:31):
and um what did he, what did he say that were like
that, I mean, what were the likelying, closing, like, oh, this
guy.

Speaker 3 (01:28:40):
Well, um, generally um soccer players, especially in
Europe, they go um pro Veryyoung Um.
They kind of skip college andthat kind of traditional
education and just go in thereand give it their all, and

(01:29:00):
sometimes it's it's quitechallenging to interview them in
a wholesome way where they cankind of go from A to B and um no
nuance.

Speaker 1 (01:29:11):
Yeah, all in the goal .
We went Right.

Speaker 3 (01:29:16):
Um.
So I was always seek out thecoach to interview after games
and, um, he said, why do youalways interview me?
Like I got a guy for you?
And I was like, okay, let's seethe guy.
And so he came over and I askedhim a couple of questions and
he answered that they were downone zero.
And then in the halftime theyconsolidated their lines and

(01:29:39):
then consolidated came out andum got a draw In a away game.
That was very, very important,um, so that was the word.

Speaker 1 (01:29:52):
So your love language is competence.

Speaker 3 (01:29:54):
Yes, Cranios, actually, yeah, he was competent
and he could um language itGood, good, yeah, so that's,
that's the story.

Speaker 2 (01:30:11):
And um, so we were together and NATO decided to
bomb Serbia because of, becauseof the cross of all issues and
political, political things thathappened there.
So then NATO was started tobomb Serbia, start the bomb

(01:30:34):
civilian targets as well asmilitary targets.
Obviously, soccer was suspendedand we found ourselves on the
farm with money on his parentsout of the, trying to be out of
the, out of the line of fire,and you know the we just okay,
the bombing is going to blowover, they're going to get come

(01:30:54):
to their senses.
And and they were not coming totheir senses.
And so then they were startingto talk about ground troops and
actual war.
So my country of origin wasbeing bombed by my adopted
country of, uh, of America, andso we got ourselves in a

(01:31:15):
crossfire there.
And, uh, when they startedtalking about ground troops, I
was like I don't think that Iwill be participating in this
ground troop conflict, I don'tthink that this is where I am
going to make my mark, and atthat point I decided to try to

(01:31:41):
get out of the country and comeback to the States.
And so we had to, we had to say, say good, say our goodbyes,
because you know, mariana wasgoing to stay with her parents
and, uh, one night during thebombing, her mom after dinner

(01:32:07):
she kind of hit the table alittle bit and she said uh well,
young man, um, what are yourintentions with my daughter?

Speaker 4 (01:32:24):
I was like oh, so I tried to give the best answer
that I could.

Speaker 2 (01:32:31):
The truthful answer was you know, my intentions are
really really good.
My intentions are really good,but I don't know that I'm.
I don't know that, I don'tthink I'm ready, I don't think
I'm ready to for the next, nextstep, or you know something like
along those lines.
Two, three days later, wedecided to for me to return back

(01:32:55):
to the States and wait out thecraziness of the, of the
conflict to stop, so that I canthen come back.
So then, anyway, I somehow finda way to get out of the country
.
That whole journey of gettingout was scary Probably tell it
another time but I ended upgetting out somehow and then

(01:33:17):
getting on a train and gettingon a bus and eventually getting
on a plane from Greece back toLA.
And I was in LA and then wewere talking every night Um,
how's it going?
How's everything?
It was going to stop, it'sgoing to stop.
The actual bombing went for 70,70 plus days, so somewhere like
two weeks into me being in LA, Iwas like this is crazy.

(01:33:41):
Oh, so we were on the phonetalking one night, and it was
the night the, the ManchesterUnited, beat.
Yeah and uh, you went to thisis her team, and she was really
sad that her team lost.
So I was like, wow, you know,this is interesting.

(01:34:03):
So, out of nowhere, a voicecomes to me and says, what, you
should ask her to marry you.
And so I was like what?
I mean, who's talking?
I was talking to myself on thephone, talking to her, and I'm
like you know, I, just two weeksago, I told her mother I'm not

(01:34:23):
ready.
What are you talking about?
I'm not, I'm not ready.
Oh, go ahead, go ahead.
Now's the time you should askher right now.
I'm like, oh man, I'm not ready.
What are you talking about?
Who's talking?
What's happening?
And so back and forth, back andforth, and something inside me
breaks and I'm like you knowwhat?

(01:34:45):
I don't know if it's the rightthing or not a right thing, but
no matter what the price is, I'mgoing to do this and I'm ready
to pay whatever the price is,cause I don't know if this is
right or not.
And so with that, I'm like Iask her would you marry me?
And I can't believe it whileI'm saying it, I can't believe

(01:35:10):
it that I'm doing it.
And so she says yes and I'mlike, whoa, this is amazing.
And so when she says yes, likemy heart really kind of explodes
, warms up in a huge way, sokind of gives me the
confirmation or this is my, thismight be okay, this might be
good, so that all that heartopening and explosion kind of

(01:35:32):
calms my brain in the moment ofall that uncertainty.
And so I tell my dad I'm goingto get married and I'm going to
go and get my girl and I'm goingto.
So I've got a bunch of smallbills because I'm going to need
small bills in Europe and I'mgoing to need to find my way

(01:35:54):
around.
And we get to.
I arrange with her I'm going towait for her at the border.
I can't enter the countryanymore because it's like war
time, so I can no longer enter.
So I have to wait for her atthe border crossing and she has
to meet me there and I'll bethere at that time and so no

(01:36:20):
cell phones.
So Mariana will tell her side ofthis crazy story of how it went
for to get her to the border.

Speaker 3 (01:36:34):
Well, once he asked me and I said, yes, I needed to
tell my parents, and so I'm theonly child and they are very
strict.
You don't make just hugedecisions on your own.
So even though I was 20something years old obviously
this is something you kind ofhave to run by people and they

(01:36:57):
only met him several times but Ithink the way I said to them
that my decision that it's goingto happen is happening was so
strong that they were left in adays a little bit, and my mom

(01:37:17):
told me after my dad came backfrom dropping me off at the
border crossing.
She said we kind of sat downacross from each other and we
said what the hell did we justdo?
What the hell did we just agreeto?
We let her go with the guyacross the ocean.

Speaker 1 (01:37:37):
It's just like a Hollywood story.
It's like a beautiful lovestory.
It's incredible.

Speaker 3 (01:37:47):
So, anyways, my dad drove me and then I saw Ivan on
the other side and I got mylittle suitcase and I said
goodbye to him and I'm walkingtowards Ivan and it was a
heartbreaking and heartwarmingexperience, in a way that I'm
leaving, I'm leaving and I'mheartbroken for the ones that

(01:38:08):
I'm leaving, but then I'm alsoso madly in love and I'm walking
towards love and towards future, and it's very interesting to
experience two polarities, twosuch strong polarities, at the
same time in the span of minutesor an hour or however long that
was.

(01:38:29):
I can only imagine what theborder patrol thought and they
were kind of looking at mecrossing, but it was one of the
really most well, aside from thewedding and then having
children and the experiencesthat give you.

(01:38:51):
I guess they shape you in a way.
So yeah, so he was there, wesat in the taxi, we drove to
Sofia, a capital of Bulgaria,and I had to go through a lot of

(01:39:12):
like plethora of tests andblood draws and things like that
, because they needed to makesure that I am healthy, which is
very interesting from asystemic perspective.
Men don't have to go through anytests, it is assumed and
presumed that they're everythingis fine with them.
But a woman needs to go and gettested for many different

(01:39:33):
things to make sure that she'sready to get married.

Speaker 2 (01:39:37):
That's a Bulgarian.

Speaker 1 (01:39:39):
Is that a Bulgarian requirement?

Speaker 3 (01:39:41):
Well, it was at the time.
It was at the time.
I don't know if it was arequirement in other countries
other European or EasternEuropean countries but I found
it very interesting that wasfine though.

Speaker 2 (01:39:55):
Yeah, she was amazing the whole way through.
So we go to the embassy becausewe need to get married and we
need to get papers for Marianato be able to come to the States
.
So we go to the embassy andthis embassy, no sorry, we don't
handle any Serbian cases.
You have to go to Hungary.
Budapest embassy handles allthe Serbian cases.

(01:40:18):
Okay so, but we still got toget married.
So we went to see all thesedoctors and all these blood
draws and all these things, andshe turns out perfect.
And so we went.
We go to City Hall to getmarried.
We're bringing a translatorwith us so they can translate
Bulgarian to us, so that we cansay I do in Serbian, they can be

(01:40:42):
translated to Bulgarian, thatwe can get married.
And so we show up there.
We got an appointment, atranslator helps us, we show up
there the correct time, we doeverything we need to do, we pay
what we need to pay and allthis stuff, and then we are
about to get married.
But we have a problem becausewe need two witnesses to get

(01:41:06):
married and we only have onewitness to get married.
So we can't get married.
So I'm like let me, I'm goingto go outside.
Give me a few minutes, I'll beright back.
So I go outside looking, I golooking, but I'm not finding
anyone.

(01:41:26):
And so across the street there'sa perfume shop and I'm like
maybe there's someone there, I'mgoing to go and I'll walk in,
and there I'm like I need awitness for the wedding.
Please come, the translatorswith me.
She's helping and she's likethe lady there is like you know,
you, you're really luckybecause it's a change of shift.

Speaker 3 (01:41:49):
So there's two of us.

Speaker 2 (01:41:51):
So there's two of us at the moment here and we can,
we can do, we can help, becauseit just happens to be change of
shift, otherwise it would not bepossible.
So we get a perfume lady tocome over and be the second
witness.
We get married and we're reallyhappy.
So we have the special pizzacelebration with our translator,

(01:42:12):
the two of us.

Speaker 1 (01:42:14):
I see a John Cusack and Kate Beckinsdale movie.
You know like with this, youknow the whole thing happening
yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:42:23):
And so then we have to get on the train to go to
Hungary, so we finally have ourtranslate uh Mary certificate
and we get on a train and it'san overnight train to Hungary,
romania, romania is kind ofdodgy overnight trains.
So we're like cuddling up and weeventually get to Budapest and

(01:42:46):
we get to the embassy and youknow, long story short, they're
saying, yeah, this is good, thislooking good.
Uh, we're gonna, we're gonnaprocess this and we're gonna let
you know.
We're like what do you mean?
You're gonna let us know.
So well, we're gonna let youknow this.
This takes some time to process, Like come back in three weeks.

(01:43:06):
How long does it take?
So there we are in Budapest fora forced three week honeymoon.
Oh wow, and by our choosing andduring the bombing, that is
continuing.
And so finally we get, we getthe papers and we fly over to LA

(01:43:29):
, and that's kind of the storyfor the grandchildren.
But our 25th anniversary is inApril, so we got married on
April 28th.
So what we're planning is, 25years later, for us to show up
at the same border crossing andmake the same crossing over to

(01:43:49):
me, and then for us to go andretrace the steps of the Sophia
trip, the train, all the thingsin the Budapest force honeymoon.
This is going to be a honeymoonby choice.
Second time around and we'lldocument by video and things
like that in the picture, sothat that's coming up.
It's going to be an adventurethis spring.

(01:44:11):
We'll share about it online.
So that's, that's a little bitof our journey and backstory.
And you asked from the systemicpoint of view, how do we?
How do we function?
So a lot of the is this yours?
And a lot of inclusion, Many,many, many jokes and

(01:44:41):
recognitions andacknowledgements of who's in the
conversation oh, that's my dad,oh, no, that's your mom.
So lots of laughing andinclusion and recognition of
who's all joining theconversation at different
moments and different times andwhat systemic dynamics are

(01:45:02):
present and who else is joiningthe conversation in the moment
and where is this coming fromand why is this showing up and
all these things.
So that's kind of a daily, allday, every day thing for us.

Speaker 3 (01:45:16):
And you know it comes down again.
It's a cliche, but awareness alot of it and it's.
I would say it's easier whenone person is kind of hijacked,
quote unquote, it's.
The system is speaking throughone person Right.
And then the other person cankind of see that and they can

(01:45:38):
jokingly call it out.
You know, but when there's two,when we are both hijacked, and
especially by the huge, it's notjust your parent or the
grandparent, it is the systemitself, like the masculine and
the feminine.
Yeah.
You know, and when we, you know,communicate and you know we

(01:46:00):
hardly ever argue, don't yell ateach other we resolve it, you
know, in a very nice and calmmatter.
And sometimes when themasculine and the feminine start
speaking through us, it takes alittle bit of extra awareness
to say you know, because I wouldsay some things.
This morning I got upset aboutsomething had nothing to do with
Ivan, it was more and I got onthis feminist tirade.

(01:46:25):
It was.
I was so angry and I'm washingdishes and I'm angry and I'm
like like full on feminists andthat's not me speaking.
Yeah.
You know that is the part of thesystem that I am, you know,
speaking for the end.
You know Ivan was present andhe heard it out, whereas he
could have been.
Well, let me tell you something.

(01:46:46):
Woman shut up and do your job.
So it's just extra, extraawareness.
And there was a funny situationa few days ago.
So my mom passed away two yearsago from complications from
COVID and you know I recognizemyself a lot in her, especially
as I get older.
And so the other day I wastalking to my dad and he was

(01:47:10):
telling me how him and Ivan'sdad were talking on the phone
and now they're actually, youknow, like talking more to each
other because they're free andthey can, you know, like talk
and you know do and plan and youknow kind of compare
experiences and stuff.
So first actually I talked toIvan's dad first and he was

(01:47:30):
telling me about stuff, and thenmy dad was telling me about
stuff they're pretty much thesame like just retelling what
they were talking about in theirconversation.
And I found myself very uneasywith the whole thing and worried
and downright judgmental likehow dare you?
You know, plan this or wantingto buy that, and and then I was

(01:47:52):
like this is my mom, oh, wow.
Like I'm listening for her andthis is her reaction, this is
not my reaction.
I caught myself and then I'mlike, okay, you're just a little
girl, you're the daughter andyou're the daughter-in-law, Let
them do.

(01:48:13):
And then I just jokingly andthen I said you guys do whatever
you want.
And I'm thinking to myself justdon't get in trouble.
And then I told Ivan.
I said you know what?
I had a funny reaction therefor several minutes and that if
I didn't, if I wasn't aware whowas reacting, I would have

(01:48:33):
probably said something that wasdisrespectful.

Speaker 1 (01:48:36):
Yeah, from the position of the partner, not
from the position of thedaughter.

Speaker 3 (01:48:40):
Yeah, and that would have been out of place.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:48:46):
So a lot of things like this.
I don't know if you got achance to something that we
shared about what happenedduring COVID a major, major,
huge testament to how we are,how we are listening for each

(01:49:11):
other in the dynamics and thesystemic perceptions and
awareness During COVID like atits peak, actually at the
beginning, when it was reallywhen it was the most scary our
son turned 18 years old on March6th, 2020.

(01:49:36):
And so it was literally.
People were dying everywhereand we didn't know why.

Speaker 1 (01:49:45):
It was like the end of the world.

Speaker 2 (01:49:46):
We didn't know who was dying.
It was like random.
Yeah, we didn't know what itwas.
Nobody knew what this thing wasyet and he's turning 18.
So he's like I'm going to goout to celebrate with my friends
.
That's my 18th birthday.
And so this is happening inthis living room.

(01:50:15):
Yeah.
Okay, in this living room andMariana is about to blow her
gasket.
She's literally.
She got really red in the faceand she tried to hold back, but
she was.
The energy was so strong.
She's like no hell, no, you'renot going anywhere tonight.

(01:50:37):
There is no way over my deadbody.
You live in this house.
And the energy was so strong.
I was like I was, I was watchingand I was like whoa, such huge
energy.
And my son was like yes, I am,I just turned 18 and I'm doing

(01:50:59):
this.
So it was like a huge, hugething.
And me, as the husband and thefather, I'm like watch out, just
be quiet, because you're aboutto get it.
Whatever you say here, you arescrewed.

(01:51:20):
So I'm holding back on, on.
You know, I feel for himbecause he is only.
He only turns 18 one time.
So I don't want to, I don'twant to stifle him.
But then my partner feels veryunsafe, to the point of really

(01:51:44):
getting out of control, violenteven, maybe.
So I'm like whoa, whoa, whoa,whoa, whoa, like this is huge.
So I'm like okay, time out, CanI call a time out?
So, and they were like theywill.
They both turned towards me andthey were like don't you time

(01:52:04):
out us?

Speaker 1 (01:52:07):
Is that like an unstoppable force meeting an
unmovable object?
Yeah, it was, it was reallyrough.

Speaker 2 (01:52:15):
So I said would you be interested to explore a way
where everyone can get what theywant?
And they were like it gotsturner, like there is no way
that everyone can get what,because I'm getting what I want,
which means he ain't gettingwhat he wants.

(01:52:37):
Jedi mind tricks, but I was likewhat if we just just pause for
a moment for a possibility,Would you be, would you be
willing for that?
And they kind of calmed downfor a moment.
And we all calmed down for amoment, for a moment.
And in systemic work, if yourecognize a disproportionate

(01:53:00):
reaction of any kind that's notappropriate for the environment
that you're in, some kind ofsystemic dynamic is occurring,
some kind of entanglement,something, some kind of
hijacking.
So I was like, okay, so what isthis reaction solving?
What are problems or solutions?

(01:53:21):
What is this reaction asolution for?
And why so much energy?
And so I kind of like pausedand rush of insight came through
.
I'm like whoa, this is notabout today.
And so I was like, wow.

(01:53:47):
So Marianna's grandfather fromthe mother side decided in 1944
that he was gonna go with hisfriends to war and his parents

(01:54:07):
actually used their, exertedtheir influence to get him out
of going and they secured hisstay and he ran.
At 3 am he snuck out and wentto war and died within weeks.
And I was like whoa, guys, thisis not about this, this is

(01:54:31):
about your grandpa Disobeyinghis parents and leaving to war
to die.
And as I said those words,Marianna started to cry and my
son's eyes opened really, reallybig, and that's incredible.

(01:54:52):
And so the recognition andacknowledgement of that moment,
right there, that her, her, hersystem was re experiencing the
trauma.
So from 44 to 20, it's like 56plus 20, 76 years gap, and the

(01:55:18):
situation was mirrored becausehe wanted to go with his friends
out into danger, and soevolutionary force was happening
, yeah.
Systemic repetition.
And so once Marianna saw that,she really cried, she really
connected, she was reallycomposed herself.

(01:55:41):
And then we worked out a waywhere he and his friends can
wear masks and they can go for ashort time and they can come
back and minimize the chances ofanything happening to them.
And so everyone did get whatthey wanted.
Marianna got the safety thatshe wanted, because she's the
safety guy, and Luca got tocelebrate with his friends and

(01:56:08):
that was one of the one of thebiggest, most high stakes
experiences of.
So that's kind of how our ourlives are and how we're, how
we're listening and bouncingthings off and navigating things
.
It's not always possible to getthat kind of a nugget, but you

(01:56:29):
know it's you.
Any chance you get to giveyourself more sovereignty and
autonomy and elbow room andreally presence yourself in the
here and now in this life.
The more choice you have andthe more ability to navigate in
the direction you want withinwithin the limited scope that we

(01:56:53):
and influence that we have asindividuals in this, in this
life.

Speaker 3 (01:56:59):
So and our children have been exposed to systemic
works.
It's very young, so now we'retalking about it, you know, more
than a decade on and they lookat things through a systemic
lens pretty much all the time.
These shows situations inschool, you know the older one

(01:57:27):
was a soccer player.
So teams, they will see andpick up the dynamics and the
patterns and the principles andyou know it's they're even
seeking out to watch if theywere to go and see a movie or
you know any kind of TV show orsomething.
They're picking something thatis related and how they can

(01:57:51):
recognize those patterns and wediscuss it afterwards because
everything is pretty muchsystemic.
You can find the patterns andyou can find, you know, even the
the latest Spider-Man movieinto the multi spider-verse.
Actually we watched that and itwas so funny because, like,
visually he was as beautiful ashe was offensive a little bit.

Speaker 1 (01:58:15):
You know, so offensive, yeah, yeah, so
visually offensive is I thinkthe yeah, it's like that's such
a great phrase, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:58:22):
Right.
So they watched it.
And then they asked me to watchit and I said I'm not sure I
saw the first one, I'm not sureI want to see this, but it's
systemic, I have to see it.
So I'm like, okay, let's see it.
So I saw it and I was blownaway how systemic it was, if you
remember that same thing whenthe person dies you know, and
they're like having the visually, a visual representation of

(01:58:43):
every single Spider-Man thatloses somebody.
And then they were like we haveto watch.
They said we have to make thatwatch it and I'm like I don't
know.
So we sat down and then theywatched it for the third time,
me for the second, and I wentfor the first time and he
afterwards he was just like whatthe hell was that he was?

(01:59:08):
He was like too much.

Speaker 1 (01:59:09):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:59:11):
And then the younger one explained it so well.
He's like, well, remember thispart and then this part, and
it's.
You know, we're not too big ofa fan of Spider-Man movies, but
then we know enough to connect.
So when he explained it sonicely, and then the old one
chimed in, and then I got it,promise I took a nap in the

(01:59:35):
middle.
I wasn't going to say I wassaving a face for you.

Speaker 2 (01:59:41):
So the truth is the truth, and I took a nap in the
middle.
So, there was no way for me toconnect the dots.

Speaker 1 (01:59:48):
It seems like it's the 180 opposite of a silent
meditation, like that movie isliterally the 180 degree
opposite of that.

Speaker 3 (01:59:58):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:59:58):
Pretty much yes.

Speaker 3 (02:00:01):
But that's a good thing, you know, because it's
not just the thing that mom anddad do or that we were made to
do, or something that we'rebeing referred to.
It's actually a part of ourlives and we get to recognize
that.
And the younger one he's not asmuch now, but he was a big
student of history.

(02:00:21):
He loved history.
So we actually had longdiscussions about that, how
systemic repetition happens, youknow, on the smaller scale
within countries and then on thelarger scale also in the world
and we even gave him an ideaMaybe that will still come to
fruition, I don't know, but wekind of give him an idea that he
was toying with to create somekind of a YouTube channel or

(02:00:47):
something where he will exploredifferent aspects of history and
different things that happenedover the years from the systemic
lens.

Speaker 1 (02:00:59):
Oh, that's cool.

Speaker 3 (02:01:00):
And how can we kind of like the Ray Dalio?

Speaker 1 (02:01:03):
does it for the business world.
That's awesome.

Speaker 3 (02:01:06):
He would do it from the systemic perspective.
So you know, fingers crossed,maybe we'll happen one day.

Speaker 1 (02:01:10):
That would be man.
I mean, you know they sayhistory doesn't necessarily
repeat itself, but it oftenrhymes.
You know that's what we'retalking about, right?
And if you can highlight thatfrom a systemic lens, there's so
much insight in that.
Yeah, it's so interesting ofwhat, like, our grandchildren

(02:01:31):
will do with all the work thatwe've done on our side, is like
what their future is going tolook like.
Right.

Speaker 2 (02:01:40):
Oh man, it's the future is not looking too pretty
.

Speaker 1 (02:01:51):
I'm so hopeful.

Speaker 2 (02:01:53):
I hope so too man.

Speaker 1 (02:01:55):
I'm so hopeful.
I don't know, maybe it'signorance, but I'm just hopeful
because I think that we'retrending generally in the right
direction.

Speaker 2 (02:02:05):
God bless you.
I hope you're right.
I wish you're right.
I hope you can lean into youroptimism.

Speaker 3 (02:02:15):
So we evolved a lot as humans and we're still
evolving, and especially interms of technology.
And then you would think thatas we evolve, we get kinder to
each other, we get moreconnected, we get more available
for each other, we get moreunified, we get more accepting

(02:02:38):
and humans.
Yes, human is a whole.
Like you, would think that wewill get that as we're evolving,
because the human consciousnessis evolving.
We're getting more connected tothe universe, knowingly.
Before that we were knowingly,but what it's back to what your
point was on the systemicresistance.
So there is a feeling of likewe're evolving and we're going

(02:03:02):
towards that, but there's stillsystemic resistance that is
making us not be unified.
We're either more divided andmore further away and more
disconnected.
So it's like two, you wouldthink.
But then no, no, no, no, no.
So I can see your optimism, butthen also I can see Ivan's

(02:03:23):
doubt.

Speaker 1 (02:03:25):
If we're collective, of all the previous experiences
from all of our ancestors, Ican't help but be hopeful in
that, because of people aroundthe world that are doing this.
I'm not saying thatconstellations is the answer,

(02:03:47):
but I'm sure it's part of theequation for the solution.

Speaker 2 (02:03:51):
Well, it definitely gives us a few lenses and some
things like that I just thoughtof, like when systems go into
protectionism, meaning that theywant to keep the status quo,

(02:04:11):
different parts of the system,then they go more extreme.
We can see the polarizationthat's happening To me.
That's a preparation and anincrease of pressure to the
eventual evolutionary forceigniting to clear the space.

(02:04:37):
So there will be a clearing ofspace on many multiple
dimensions, from the ecology'spoint of view, from the
government side, from thepolitics side, from the business
side.
So many different simultaneousclearings, so the

(02:05:02):
destabilization of the unhealthysystems will be very turbulent.
And so maybe after the clearinghopefully the clearing doesn't
leave consequences that are notturn aroundable, if you would.

Speaker 1 (02:05:23):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, recoverable that yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:05:25):
So that we can regenerate from after the
clearing.
But yeah, clearing is coming.

Speaker 1 (02:05:33):
So when you talked about evolutionary first, the
first time I freaked out I waslike oh shit, like World War II,
world War III, I startedthinking about all those things.
But then I was like you knowwhat also is evolutionary force?
Modern medicine, the internet,things that just are things and

(02:05:56):
they're not modern sewerage is aMartin Luther King.
Martin Luther King.

Speaker 2 (02:06:03):
Microsoft Parks.

Speaker 1 (02:06:04):
Yeah, microsoft Parks , microsoft Office, you know,
like the abundance that acomputer program, that Microsoft
Office created for the planetfor standardizing production on
a technology level isincalculable.
I think this is not my originalthought as one of my friends,
but like I was like, oh, there'sevolutionary force that goes,

(02:06:27):
that trends in both directions,and I think the evolution, like
what I've been thinking a lot of, is like the evolutionary force
, like ping-pongs in bothdirections, right, but also that
isolation becomes lesspronounced and more balanced in
its future.
And I'm like is AI potentiallyan evolutionary force that will

(02:06:49):
uncover the hidden dynamics inso many things that will point
us in a direction ofconsolidation?

Speaker 2 (02:07:07):
Yeah, the unknown is accelerating towards us.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:07:14):
So it's almost 8am here.
It's here yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:07:18):
It's there is a disruption coming.
It's already here and thedisruption is going to
progressively get louder.
So I think that that's coming.
That's kind of like a certainty.
And, yeah, I think thatsomething organically came out

(02:07:48):
of me one of the trainees thatwe held, and it was the Olympics
are coming and we don't knowwhat's going to be included in
those Olympics, but we know thatwe're going to have to

(02:08:09):
participate, and so how do youprepare for the disciplines you
don't know are coming?

Speaker 1 (02:08:16):
I think if you have a skill set that knows how to
navigate the unknown might be agood solution for that.

Speaker 2 (02:08:26):
Yes, so I said, the Olympics are coming as a kind of
a mobilization for what wouldbe a set of skills or what would
be the lens that would bestprepare you for the major

(02:08:49):
challenge that is coming, whenyou don't know what that
challenge is going to look like.
And so systemic lens, I think,is one of the best coming to the
moment fresh, being able toempty, being able to adapt,
being able to shift, being ableto acknowledge, being able to

(02:09:09):
acknowledge and face reality,all of those things literally.
This is the like they say inMandalorian.
This is the way.

Speaker 1 (02:09:21):
This is the way.

Speaker 2 (02:09:23):
This is the way for the preparation for the unknown,
and so I think, if we're goingto say something that might be
curiosity building for peoplethat may hear this, and what
would be the value, the facility, the capacity, the reason, the

(02:09:47):
purpose for learning more aboutsystemic work, this would be it.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:09:54):
Yeah, you become a clear vessel when you work on
your shit.
I mean that's, you're not ledby your trauma, you're led by
you know the proper relationshipwith the unknown.

Speaker 2 (02:10:04):
Yeah, your level of awareness is higher and your
availability for the moment ishigher.
And then you're available, beavailable for co-creation.
Because of your presence isavailable, it's a lot higher.

(02:10:25):
So if there is a disruption,the people that can approach the
new with the fresh eyes and bethe most adaptable with the new
that is coming from the unknown,which we cannot predict, those
are the people that are going tohave the most agency.

(02:10:48):
Yeah.
They'll be the most useful forthemselves and those people
close to them.
They will operate locally andif you can be the agent, if you
can be the free agent, okay.
So this is a call to all thepeople who feel a calling to be

(02:11:10):
a free agent in this entangled,systemic world.
Yeah.
How free can you make yourself?
How free, how freely can youenable yourself?
How much agency will you opento and include that would?

(02:11:36):
That would prepare you for thesomething that can you cannot be
prepared for.
Yeah, by definition.

Speaker 1 (02:11:43):
By definition yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:11:46):
That's what I would say for for people who are
interested and curious aboutthis work.
This is not a user poker term.
This is something you learn in15 minutes.
Maybe you you can, you cangrasp conceptually this is.

(02:12:11):
It takes some.
It takes a lifetime, maybeseveral lifetimes, to really say
master the other metaphor.
I don't feel that you masterthe unknown.
No.

Speaker 1 (02:12:31):
Master is not the correct word you master yourself
in the unknown.
You sit, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (02:12:39):
You prepare, prepare your vessel.
Yeah.
For the high seas.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:12:49):
I think that's a beautiful place to end it.
Ivan, how do people get a holdof you?
And Mariana, what is that Knowyou're active on Facebook and
social media.

Speaker 2 (02:13:00):
Yeah, so for our business work and business world
solutions and evolvingorganizations and freeing.
Our mission is to free as manypeople, teams and organizations
to overflow with their naturalgoodness and what they have

(02:13:21):
inside inherently the essence ofwho they are to be able to
overflow freedom.
For that, that's our mission.
And for the organizational side, go to systemic approach,
institutecom, and for more ofthe systemic side, you probably

(02:13:42):
need to go to Facebook.
There is a group calledsystemic approach, systemic work
all day, every day.
And in the systemic work allday, every day group we're going
to run next Sunday, actuallythe 15th of October, at noon
Pacific time.
We're going to run a reunion andsacred relationship exploration

(02:14:09):
, how to have love and freedomwith partners, parents and
children and we say love andfreedom because one without the
other is not complete and we'regoing to.
It's going to be veryexperiential.
So, if this is calling for you,come and join the group on

(02:14:32):
Facebook and we're going toannounce there the Zoom link for
the actual experience on the15th and we're going to be
diving in exploring how can weallow both love and freedom in
our most important relationshipsin life.
And thank you, john, for havingus.

(02:14:52):
We went down some rabbit holesthat were very, very interesting
.
Really good ice cream andreally a pleasure to be with you
.
I can feel your heart andsincerity and wanting to serve

(02:15:16):
the world, the people, the work,and it's a huge pleasure.
Love what you're doing andconsider us a support and
resource for you, and we lookforward to other things we can
do together.

Speaker 1 (02:15:36):
Yeah, we'll do it again.
We'll do it again.
Thank you, john.
You guys have been great.
Thank you for everything thatyou provided my life really.
You know from the business sideand from the personal side, and
to other members of my familyas well.
So you guys are always good inmy book and if you ever have to
bury a body, let me know, I'llget the shovel.

Speaker 2 (02:15:58):
I hope we don't have to meet under those
circumstances.

Speaker 3 (02:16:02):
You never know, you never know.

Speaker 2 (02:16:04):
That's an important, important thing Deep trust.
Deep trust, yeah, so thank youguys.

Speaker 1 (02:16:08):
Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Speaker 4 (02:16:08):
John, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you,
thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank
you.

Speaker 2 (02:16:13):
Thank you, thank you.

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