The Path of Resilience and Growth: Cindy Biggs Discusses Life's Unexpected Turns and Spiritual Healing

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Today on the podcast we have a very special guest.
She's a retired senior foreignservice officer and
international journalist, my momCindy Biggs.
Wow Geez, that was powerful, sopowerful, yeah.

(00:25):
So what came up on that one?

Speaker 2 (00:30):
Oh, man, just so much love and gratitude that I'm not
alone.
You know on this journey, thatI have all these people that
were before me, that are rootingfor me, that love me, that want
the best for me, and that I cantap into that resource all the

(00:56):
time.
And I don't do it enough.
I, you know I try to.
I have tried to white-knuckleit in the past and just thought
that I had to be superwoman justout here, conquering the world
all by myself, and man to knowthat that resource is there,
it's always been there.

(01:17):
It's just such an incrediblegift.
So, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
You're welcome.
For those people I don't know,we usually start the podcast
with a meditation that connectswith the ancestors.
You can connect first with yourparents and then with many
generations behind, so I thinkthat's an emotional movement.

(01:45):
Yeah, oh geez.
So what comes up when you dothat?
I mean, is it just, is it like?
is it connection?
Is it some pain?
Is it just pure connection?

Speaker 2 (02:07):
Pure connection And I also saw because my mother was
a deeply religious, deeplyspiritual person.
she really set the example forme about the need to continue
the spiritual quest And Ivividly remember her waking up

(02:29):
every single when I would get up.
She would get up or she wouldalready have been up for a
couple of hours And she justpoured her soul into the Bible.
She was on a spiritual quest myentire life And it really
taught me such an importantlesson that we just continue to
seek And so, as she was comingup then I also saw the series of

(02:56):
really important spiritualmentors and therapists in my
life that have just kept me ontrack and kept me going and a
couple of occasions literallyhelped me save my life.

Speaker 1 (03:12):
Oh yeah, what?
so?
obviously for people listeningto the podcast, or my mom, just
to create that context from thebeginning, and you were the
person that was first introducedto family constellations Can
you tell me a little bit abouthow that happened?

Speaker 2 (03:35):
So, yes, indeed, i am the mother of John.

Speaker 1 (03:40):
Not a little bit, a lot of bit.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
And his sister Alicia .
And so all I ever really wantedto do when I was growing up, in
addition to becoming I wantedto be a spy, i wanted to become
famous, i wanted to be anactress, and then I wanted to
become a spy.
But I really, really wanted tobecome a mom And I had kind of a

(04:06):
path laid out for my life, theway that I thought my life was
supposed to go.
My parents met in college.
They got married between theirjunior and senior years because
my father was a very, veryinsistent person.
He liked to get things done,and so, and I just kind of

(04:27):
thought that's what would happenfor me.
I would meet my husband atcollege, probably Become a
famous actress.

Speaker 1 (04:34):
Become a famous actress.
Become a spy.

Speaker 2 (04:35):
Become a spy on the side, just moonlighting as a spy
, my cover would be theHollywood kick.
And I mean keep in mind, thiswas the 70s.
I graduated from college in1979.

Speaker 1 (04:49):
So was it like a funky spy, kind of Like Bell
Bottoms and like InternationalWoman of Mystery type of
situation?
That was the kind of spy thatit was.
That was the kind of spy.

Speaker 2 (05:03):
So I went up to college and I fell in love with
a wonderful man from Detroit,michigan, and we were on the
track to be married.
And, lo and behold, i had thisclass called Non-Western World.
This was in Michigan andeverybody was required to take
this class And it was thespringtime And so I was a little

(05:27):
bit more laid back And a manwalked into the room who I
thought was British because healways carried an umbrella, and
I can't even explain thisinstant zap that I felt.
And so, fast forward, to make along story short, i ended my

(05:51):
relationship with the other manand your father and I began
dating And I always said Ireally like this guy, but I am
never leaving the United States.
I was a television broadcastmajor and I was going to move to

(06:13):
Chicago.
One of my closest friends wasmoving to Chicago and my life
was all set up and part of myplan no part of my plan included
leaving my country.

Speaker 1 (06:26):
Wow, it didn't.
Oh, my gosh.

Speaker 2 (06:31):
It also never included me learning to speak
Spanish.

Speaker 1 (06:36):
My mother, four languages.

Speaker 2 (06:38):
My mother was a Spanish major.
In college.
She and my father had a Spanishclass together, and Guillermo,
and she wanted all three of herdaughters not only to go to the
same college that we went to, orthat they want to, but she also
wanted all of us to learnSpanish, and I was so much

(07:02):
smarter than my mother.
I would put my hands on my hipsand look at her and say, really
, mother, I'm never going to useSpanish.

Speaker 1 (07:09):
Oh, wow.

Speaker 2 (07:11):
Boy, it could have helped me a lot.

Speaker 1 (07:12):
Yeah, really That first year.

Speaker 2 (07:19):
So we had a fascinating, wonderful life, two
wonderful, incredible humanbeings along the way.
We lived, started out in ruralVenezuela, moved to Mexico,
moved to Brazil We are pursuingmy husband's career with a

(07:40):
multinational company And wefinally got back to or we
finally got to headquarters,which happened to be a little
town or city that was close tomy little hometown in Michigan,
and we kind of looked around andsaid, okay, we've got 2.2 kids,

(08:02):
we've got, you know, aDalmatian, you know the one
every Sunday, right, you play onthe Sapa League.
This is really not what wesigned up for and things went
sideways for him, unfortunately,with the company he was working
for, and so we moved back toVenezuela where we lived for
nine years.
I went back to working for ABCNews I'd worked for them in

(08:26):
college And what was that like?
Working for them in college.

Speaker 1 (08:32):
No, working for them and working for them in
Venezuela.

Speaker 2 (08:35):
It was amazing, it was fascinating.
I still can't believe theyhired me.
They hired me.
My colleagues at the televisionstation encouraged me to
interview with ABC of New York,and so we set up an interview in
the Miami airport as we weremoving back to Venezuela.

(08:56):
Are you serious?
Yeah, it was fascinating, areyou serious?
Yeah, and I had some auditiontapes.
So they hired me to.

Speaker 1 (09:04):
I just imagine a guy with a recorder and you running
down the airport and justinterviewing like I got to go to
Venezuela.

Speaker 2 (09:15):
So they didn't have budget to hire a correspondent,
of course.
So the arrangement was thatanything that ABC did there,
whether it was for PrimetimeLive, good Morning America, abc
Radio, nightly News, i would beable to help facilitate that
Segment being filmed.

(09:36):
Or I would do all sorts ofthings like help them set up a
satellite feed for a presidentwho was flying in from a
neighboring country, because,again, technology was completely
different back then.

Speaker 1 (09:50):
So Were you like the forward team, almost Like the.

Speaker 2 (09:55):
Yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:58):
Like you, were the point of contact to make
everything happen.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
Yes, and that is called a handler until.

Speaker 1 (10:05):
That sounds very professional.

Speaker 2 (10:08):
Doesn't it all fear?
in the industry you're like thelow man on the top.
You have to pick the producersup at the airport.
You know like, yeah, set up allthe pre-interviews and until
President Hugo Chavez isattempted political coup.
And I got a phone call.

Speaker 1 (10:28):
In 1992?
.

Speaker 2 (10:31):
We can fact check that.
I can't quite remember.

Speaker 1 (10:33):
Let's pull it up.
Let's have the producer pull itup.

Speaker 2 (10:37):
Where's your 10-year-old son?

Speaker 1 (10:38):
doing Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (10:41):
So it was 10 minutes to 12 at night and my phone rang
and I got a call from this guywho was the foreign news editor
in New York and he said, hey,are you available, Can you cover
the coup for us?
And I'm like sure, And I'm likepoking your dad.
And they said, yeah, you'regoing to go national.

(11:05):
So I am jumping up and down onthe couch, you know.
I want to get dressed andjumping up and down the couch.
I'm going national.
I'm going national And I lookover at my husband, my
Venezuelan husband, and he'slike shaking his head, you know,
just like my country, mycountry.
I'm like, oh, that's right,there's a coup underway Yikes.

(11:28):
Yeah, what a conflicting thing.
Oh, that was yeah, but I hadsome incredibly interesting
projects.
One of the segments was for2020, they devoted to the Miss
Venezuela pageant, the phenomenathat Venezuela had had more
beauty queens than any othercountry in the world, which was

(11:50):
absolutely fat.
I mean it sounds verysuperficial, but the history
behind it and the culturalidentification that the
Venezuelans had with this beauty.
With beauty, i mean Venezuelanpeople are beautiful people And
I'm not just saying that becauseyou're half.
Venezuelan, so is your sister,but there was a huge influx of

(12:14):
immigrants before and after thewar, and so they mixed with the
Venezuelan people, theindigenous people and the
Africans who were brought toVenezuela, and it just made for
these stunningly beautifulpeople.
Your grandfather used to saythat all Venezuelans are a

(12:34):
mixture of coffee and milk.
Some have more coffee, somehave more milk, and the result
is just a stunningly naturalbeauty that may or may not have
been tweaked just a little bitby the organization behind And
the aftermarket scene.

Speaker 1 (12:58):
No, there's this theory of colonization that says
that Latin America becauseCatholic priests went in that
there was a lot more mixing ofraces generationally, so over
generations and generationsthere wasn't this huge
segmentation that happened inthe US.
So there was a lot, just likethis population.

(13:19):
That is what you can have inthe same family of people that
are different skin tones.
So it's like really interestingto, and then you produced
incredibly good looking people.

Speaker 2 (13:30):
And I think back then , obviously, the political
situation.
Venezuela had the strongestdemocracy in 40 years.
They had the highest per capitaconsumption of Johnny Walker
Black and the highest number ofprivate planes per capita.
I mean, it was just a.
There was definitely corruption, don't get me wrong, but they

(13:50):
had elected a president who hadserved previously, carlos Andres
Perez.
He was known to be corrupt, butI think that the feeling was
that he's so rich that what youknow okay, maybe this time it'll
be about power, not aboutwealth, and he'll focus on doing

(14:10):
good things for the country,and he in fact did.
The middle class of Venezuelawas growing.
I mean, this predates theChavez attempted coup, but it
was a fascinating process towatch unfold.

Speaker 1 (14:26):
A lot of people don't understand this about Venezuela
.
It's like you know, you hear itin the news a lot now.
They're like Venezuela,socialist and also Venezuela, so
it's like it's more.
It's deeper and more complexthan that.
Venezuela has always beencenter left Always.

Speaker 2 (14:41):
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (14:42):
Universities were free.
There was private universities,but also very strong public
universities that you cannotbecome a doctor and men as well
by paying money, right?
So doctors have this.
I was talking about this anddad's podcast, like how Doris,
my stepmom, has such a sociallike debt, because you know they

(15:05):
have not a social debt but likea social responsibility in some
capacity.
That you know because in theireducation is completely free and
she spent time in the Amazontending to you know, local
tribes and giving them medicalcare And you know you can't like
the scholarship that dad got tostudy in the United States was

(15:27):
government sponsored.
You know the school system wascompletely free.
There was a healthcare systemthat was completely free.
The largest oil company in theworld at that time was a public
company And so there was likeeverybody talks about.
You know not to say that thatsocialism is good, but there is
a version of strong socialprograms that work and worked

(15:49):
for many years.
So tell me a little bit aboutyou know you were there during a
very critical time and you saw,you were at the ground level of
some and met some reallyimportant people in the
Venezuelan government, um, andyou saw transformations.
Tell me a little bit about that, because it's not.

(16:10):
It's always been socialist,right, it's been a little bit
socialist, but something shifted.

Speaker 2 (16:14):
Something shifted, um so.
So My marriage got a littlecrowded.
I'm a former diplomat after all.
That's how I worded.
Actually, my husband and hisbest friend suggested that I get
a job at the US Embassy,because at that point I did

(16:36):
become a contributingcorrespondent for ABC.
During the coup, because othernews organizations were calling
me up and ABC wanted exclusivity, i said, well, because I just
wanted the byline.
I didn't care about money orbenefits or anything.
If you make me a contributingcorrespondent, then I will cover
this exclusively, which I did,and some other fascinating

(16:58):
stories.
I knew the writing was on thewall that I was going to have to
find a job that providedbenefits and a stable salary,
especially because there wasconcerns about currency
exchanges being put in place andwe had a mortgage in US dollars
back in the States.

Speaker 1 (17:19):
This is 1999?

Speaker 2 (17:21):
Yes, Yeah, exactly.
I applied for a job at the USEmbassy as a contracted employee
and I did that for four years.
I covered thetelecommunications sector and at
that point Hugo Chavez had goneon to win with votes what he
couldn't achieve with bullets.

(17:43):
Oh that's a Thank you.

Speaker 1 (17:45):
Wow, thanks, man, you are a journalist.

Speaker 2 (17:49):
So we were working closely with Hugo Chavez
administration.
Let me backtrack a little bit.
People wonder how in the worldhe got into power.
And what happened was there wasa US election software and
hardware company that had beenworking with the Venezuelan
government to sell them theirequipment.

(18:12):
It was an ethical company and,in our position with the embassy
, we facilitated theinterconnection between that US
exporter and their partners onthe ground, which in this case
was the Venezuelan government.
Because that's what we did.
We didn't make decisions, wedidn't do deals, we simply put

(18:34):
partnerships together.
So that election, when PresidentChavez won, i believe the voter
turnout was 35% of thepopulation.
Even though voting in 35% Andit's mandatory by law It's not
all countries require that youvote.

(18:56):
It's not mandatory, but inVenezuela it is If you don't get
a little sticker on yournational ID card and so you
can't avail yourself of a numberof services if you didn't vote.
But it had been a 40-yearstrong democracy And even though
Hugo Chavez never made any,there were no illusions that he

(19:18):
was anything other than who hesaid he was, which he was
proclaiming to be a socialist.
Then some of the things he saidwere resonating with people
because they were so tired ofcorruption and they were so
tired of just a very smallpercentage of the population
controlling all the wealth.
When the country has everything.

(19:39):
I mean absolutely everything.
You throw seeds down in thesoil in Venezuela and outsprouts
any kind of crop.
It's got oil resources, it'sgot natural gas, it's got
hydroelectric power.
It's got everything you couldpossibly imagine.
In the countries besides TexasIn the country And it's
physically the most beautifulcountry I've ever The Amazon

(20:01):
jungle, the flatlands, the Andes, mountains I mean the islands
It's just stunningly beautiful.
So the company sold thehardware and the software to the
Venezuelan government, so thatpart was clean.
35% of the population turnedout to vote And he came into

(20:28):
power and almost immediately thechange started.
We were trying everything thatwe could to support this
democratically elected president, because he was, and the area
that I intersected with them onwas in telecommunications, so
they wanted to because, again,internet was a new thing.

Speaker 1 (20:52):
What an interesting place to be at what an
interesting time.
Because it's like the likereally proliferation of the
internet and this politicalmovement that divides, So they
kind of leverage this technologyto expand their voice.

Speaker 2 (21:12):
So there are some programs that the US government
offers to developing countrieswhich is what Venezuela was
considered, obviously And one ofthem was that, if they were,
they were building out a sector.
We would organize what's calledan orientation visit to go to
the United States so that thegovernment officials could meet

(21:34):
with their counterparts.
The Venezuelan governmentofficials could meet with the US
counterparts to figure out howyou structure, for example, a
telecommunications system,Because we were really start,
they were starting from groundzero.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
Like infrastructure, like yeah Yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:51):
And I don't know if you remember, but we lived, so
we lived in, i mentioned, welived in rural Venezuela, which
we lived in a city calledMaracay, which is an hour and a
half west of Caracas, and wewere there for four years and we
didn't have a landline Andthere were no cell phones back
then And the waiting list to geta landline was 13 years 13

(22:12):
years, 13 years, oh my God.
So if I wanted to call myparents back in Michigan, we
would drive to Caracas and Iwould go in your grandfather's
office and I would start dialinguntil I got an operator And
everybody knew I would be inthere all day.
And so I would just dial anddial, and dial until I got an
operator, and then the operatorwould patch me through and then

(22:36):
I would be able to talk to myparents.
So the telecommunicationsindustry was just in shambles.

Speaker 1 (22:42):
I didn't know that All day, all day.
All day long That must havebeen like torture.

Speaker 2 (22:48):
And then sometimes they wouldn't be home.
Oh God, then things got alittle bit better.

Speaker 1 (22:53):
That's like living on the moon.
Yeah, it's like living on themoon, like you're like.
Hey, i'm going to send amessage.

Speaker 2 (23:00):
Things got a little bit better.
There was a public phone on ourstreet, so you would just load
up with tons of coins and thengo stand in this horrendously
long line to be able to call.
That would sometimes work.
Yeah, that, coupled with thefact that, again, keep in mind
there was no internet.
But we didn't.
We had no one.
This was 1984.

(23:21):
Yeah, i mean.
We moved to Venezuela inDecember of 1980.
So from 80, for the next fouryears we were living in
Madagascar.
There was no mail service.
There was absolutely no mailservice.
It just didn't work.
You couldn't get a letter, youcouldn't send one out, you
couldn't get one back in.
When my grandfather died, myneighbor across the hall had a

(23:44):
phone And somehow I had giventhat number to my parents and
they called my neighbor and myneighbor came over and knocked
on the door and told me that mygrandfather had died.
Oh, wow.
Anyway, all this backstory tosay that the telecommunications
network was a disaster.
So Hugo Chavez put in it wasthe equivalent of the federal

(24:11):
trade communications He startedputting.

Speaker 1 (24:16):
Which is.

Speaker 2 (24:17):
Conatell right, conatell, exactly.
He started putting some of hisvery, very trusted leaders into
that instant, into thatorganization, because for Chavez
, the most important thing wasloyalty.
It was absolutely loyalty.
So two of his most trustedadvisors were put in charge of

(24:40):
Conatell, and Chavez had heardabout the importance or maybe
Conatell had, and I'm not goingto name any names.
They had heard about theimportance of interconnectivity,
and so the grand scheme was toput an internet kiosk on every

(25:01):
corner so that people would haveaccess to information.
This was before they realizedthat information is power, and
it was really interesting, oncethat happened, how they tried to
dial that back really quickly.

Speaker 1 (25:14):
So they were.
The first thing was So itseemed like they went in with
the right intentions.

Speaker 2 (25:20):
Absolutely they did.
They were like.
That's my belief.

Speaker 1 (25:23):
Yeah, it could be.
Whether it's true or not, imean, it could be, it could be
taken either way, but they didhave the initial inclination or
spark to say we're going toconnect every Venezuelan in some
way with this new technologythat's emerging so they can have
power, like knowledge at least.

(25:44):
Not necessarily power, but atleast have knowledge.
How did that transition?
What did that look like whenthey were scaling it back?

Speaker 2 (25:51):
So let me talk first about how they were scaling it
up.
So we would set up thisorientation visit and we even
got permission to put atelecommunications expert into
Conitel and she worked there forone year and she had total
access to everything.

Speaker 1 (26:10):
An American.

Speaker 2 (26:11):
An American telecommunications expert who
was helping build out.
And yeah, we did a lot to helpthem build out their
telecommunications.
It really is.
I wish I could tell you thewhole story.
Well, yeah, i know, i know, iknow there's much of the story
that cannot be told, but yes, SoI really believe, and not just

(26:32):
because I'm an optimist, becauseI very much my father's
daughter, who was the mostoptimistic person I've ever met
in my entire life.
I really believe, and manypeople really believed, that the
intention was good at the onsetAnd I'll give you a very vivid
example.
On the first orientation visit,which was the first time these

(26:57):
telecommunications officials hadbeen to the United States, we
set up I can't remember It was aweek or 10 days but not only
were there meetings with theircounterparts, but they were
invited into the home of anAmerican where we sat at this
table and talked about theimportance of giving people the
tools that they need to becomeempowered and how that helps

(27:18):
grow a nation.
They'd never been in the homeof an American in the United
States, obviously, and much lesshaving this absolutely
fascinating conversation aboutwhat their position was going to
allow them to do to grow theircountry, to continue on this
path of having a strongdemocracy.

(27:39):
So we did a couple of these,and I can't remember if it was
two or three, but I distinctlyremember looking over at this
person that I was accompanyingand the Louis Vuitton extremely
expensive leather suitcasessuddenly showed up and watches
and because power corrupts andmoney corrupts, and it was.

Speaker 1 (28:05):
Do you think it's the power and the money or do you
think it's the layers of traumaand unresolved stuff that opens
the gates to being corruptible?
Yes, or the us versus them,victim perpetrator dynamics.

Speaker 2 (28:22):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (28:23):
Yeah, right, because if you were presented with the
option and had all the bestintentions in the world and you
saw what it could be and youchose to do it differently, to
go down the path ofretraumatization, right, because
it's not like they didn't knowwhat it could be like, what a

(28:43):
solid infrastructure looks like,because they had been to the
United States, you know what thefuture could look like.
It's not like they didn't know,but because of the rhetoric and
the victimization and the stuff, we're able to justify another
path.

Speaker 2 (29:04):
Yeah, Well, and just going back for a moment about
the milk and cream analogy thatyour grandfather used in
Venezuela, because of thismixture of races, you didn't
ever really distinguish who waswhat race because it was just

(29:28):
all a blend, and I rememberbeing so struck by the fact that
racism seemingly didn't exist.
I mean, it had to at some level.
But I was talking to acolleague and it dawned on me He

(29:50):
had blue eyes, dark skin, andit dawned on me oh wow, in the
US you would be considered black, and never even occurred to me
that he was black before Never,And Venezuelans were always so
shocked, as are many countriesthroughout the world, at the
problems that we're stillstruggling with internally

(30:12):
regarding racism.
That was really interesting.
And after Chavez was elected,all of a sudden there seemed to
be this divide that just keptgrowing and growing.
And I remember once in thegrocery store, the woman who was
, because you had to get yourcheese sliced at the deli.

(30:33):
You couldn't just pick upsliced cheese, You had to ask
for it, which was kind ofwonderful because you would
connect with a person and theywould say oh you know, hi,
little Mrs Do you want the samewhite cheese.

Speaker 1 (30:45):
Yeah, give me a half kilo.

Speaker 2 (30:51):
All of a sudden, there was this divide and she
was saying things to people onthe other side of the counter
like I don't have to give you,you know, and it was like whoa
where is?
this coming from, but I thinkyou're bringing up this trauma
that had always been there, thatwas underlying these people who

(31:13):
lived in the poor sections ofVenezuela, like the resentment
they must have felt, and whilewe're on the other side thinking
there's no racism here.

Speaker 1 (31:27):
Well, i think in Venezuela it's more classism
than racism, like that's theprevailing narrative, seems to
be a class conversation.
But you know, i talked to thisabout the people.
a lot is like.
you know, there used to beupward mobility in Venezuela
because the infrastructure wasthere And it wasn't.
you know, obviously Venezuelawould be a completely different

(31:48):
country if the upward mobilitywas at scale.
But you would hear stories ofpeople that were from, you know,
the interior of the country, asmall, small, rural town,
studied, went to Caracas to thecapital, went to university,
became an engineer and thenworked for you know large
company.
And then you know, becausethere was so much opportunity in

(32:09):
Venezuela that you would belike I brought I don't know
zippers from the United Statesand you would sell all the
zippers in the world and you'dbecome extraordinarily wealthy.
So there was like these, thesechaotic shoots of success that
wasn't like systemic success, itwas like individuals having
success and that furtherexacerbates the divide, right,

(32:32):
and if you don't invest in theinfrastructure to make more
people have like a stable growth, then you have this, this
divide or internal resentmentthat can be capitalized on by
somebody of that nature.
You know people say that.
you know people are sointerested in Trump And, like,
chavez and Trump are verysimilar.

(32:52):
They're they're divisive,they're very charismatic.
You know they're very funny.
Like you can't.
Chavez was hilarious.
You would talk for hours and hewould be hilarious.
obviously, you know divisiveand petty and all those things,
but you would just see like thisvictim perpetrator narrative
come up.
So how was, once you identifiedthat, what were the biggest

(33:19):
changes that you saw in thesociety?
Like you're, like these peopleare becoming resentful, or
everybody's kind of becomingresentful.
What did you?
what did you see?

Speaker 2 (33:30):
If I can go back just a little bit to something, that
your grandfather always talkedabout, And that was that
Venezuela prior to the discoveryof oil was a completely
different country.
And that is.
You know, you stick a a spigotin the ground in Venezuela and
out pops oil.
It's such an oil rich countryAnd I really think that was the

(33:54):
biggest blessing and the biggestcurse, because it changed the
mentality of the Venezuelans.
Venezuelans were just reallyhardworking people and they were
all middle, everybody wasmiddle class.
There wasn't this huge divide.
And then along comes thediscovery of oil and it
literally changes Venezuelaovernight And it becomes that
land of opportunity where youcan sell zippers to everybody

(34:18):
and and they invested heavily ineducation.
With that A grand plan, Theymight A grand mariscal day, yeah
.
Exactly, thank you.
So just so many interestingdynamics in in a pretty young
country taking place.
So the, the administration,chavez administration, gets into

(34:41):
power.
The money is there.
I think all these people whohave never had money before,
have never had access to wealthand power coupled with their
trauma, they get into thesepositions and it just takes a
few bad apples to start changingthe mentality and your look,

(35:03):
you're.
you know, you're the, the, the,the, the, the, the, the head of
a, of a, a administration of.
you know, you're in theministry of transportation and,
oh man, so the minister overthere is getting real rich.
Look at the car that they justdrove up and the you know.
and it just pretty quicklychanged the face of the country.

(35:24):
And then Venezuela startedidentifying with other countries
who also, their people, hadexperienced trauma.
So they were doing traumabonding with these countries
that were being led by peoplewho had a kind of ideology where
at some point maybe they didwant to change the country for

(35:44):
the good.
Their intention was good, butthey got into those positions
and there's something to be saidabout wisdom and experience.
And you don't, you don't know,you don't parachute into the
position of being president of acountry without having any
prior experience about howgovernments work.

(36:06):
It's really important And I'mnot saying that it's the only
requisite.
I'm just saying there's alearning curve there And in the
beginning of that learning curve, if you see all these problems
and all this money and you'rebeing contacted by these other
colleagues of yours in othercountries and they're saying

(36:27):
this is how we do it and you andyour influences, your ideology
was maybe tilting.
you know, the relationshipbetween Cuba and Venezuela has
always been really strong.

Speaker 1 (36:37):
But yeah, so you know what's happened.
So the KGB was recruiting outof la Universidad Central de
Venezuela, which is the centralUniversity of Venezuela, since
the 60s, since the 50s, you know, carlos de Jaco, you know all
those guys were, you know therewas, there was deep seeded

(36:58):
already those seeds, deep seededseeds That's not the right, the
right phrase, but like they'realready planted, those seeds of
that ideology or that.
I just, i just think it's avictim perpetrator dynamic.
You know, it's like the that ifyou don't have something,
somebody else has taken it awayfrom you.
And it's not.
You know, it's the systemicdivide of power and those that

(37:23):
are power, the oppressed, theoligarchs, like you started
hearing that language and thoseseeds were planted, the
professors of those guys thatwent to military universities
and were people that wereindoctrinated in some way by
Marxist ideology.

(37:43):
And it's like it's reallyinteresting to see when it
exploded, which really explodedin the 2000s.

Speaker 2 (37:51):
So just kind of a very visual example of that
changes.
There's a big park in Caracasand we were training for a
marathon And so we would have togo.
We would always go to this parkand run, and run, and run And
all of a sudden, after Chavezwas elected, you would see

(38:11):
groups of young people sittingon the grass and these guys
wearing white shirts, whitet-shirts and red bandana or red
berets, which was the symbol ofChavez, of being a chavista.
That was the uniform that youwore.
They were indoctrinating theseyoung people And every week

(38:32):
there would be more and more ofthese small groups.
And in the backdrop is aprivate.
it was a private airport calledLa Cardulota.
It's a private military airportYou would see planes landing and
the planes were full of Cubanscoming in, and so when the

(38:53):
unrest started I think itprobably was difficult to
convince the Venezuelans tocarry out these intimidation
techniques that there was acampaign of intimidation.
One of your sister's friends,their younger brother, was out
playing basketball and just inthe building and he was picked

(39:16):
up and taken away and throwninto the back of a truck with a
whole bunch of other youngpeople Just to threaten me.
He was returned or released orwhatever, but they were just
campaigning.
It was a technique of plantingthe seeds of.
This is what happens if youspeak out.

(39:37):
And then, to come full circle,chavez realized, oh gosh,
information is freedom.
And he brought in a speakerfrom Cuba to go to the Simón
Bolívar University And thespeaker was talking about one of

(39:57):
his Chavez campaign tactics Ican't remember or one of his
promises And he was booed out ofthe stadium And then very, very
quickly, access to internetstarted getting shut down
Because they realized, oops,this is going to work against us

(40:18):
.

Speaker 1 (40:19):
It's so interesting to see that we have a blueprint
that's culturally similar to howthis works.
There's such a red herringaround Venezuela.
You're hearing on Fox Newswhere I was like Venezuela, blah
, blah, blah.
In those three or five secondsound bites they're like

(40:39):
Venezuela, this crap, we're allgoing to end up like Venezuela.
Venezuela is a case study forunderstanding what unresolved
trauma does and how that can beleveraged for power to destroy a
country that was once a reallygreat path.

Speaker 2 (40:56):
And it's also a case study for the importance of
taking care of your democracy,because if you don't turn out
and vote, you get what you get,and even though it was 40 years
strong, it can turn overnight.
So that's a very, verylong-winded answer to your

(41:21):
question.

Speaker 1 (41:23):
I mean, this is the tension of how this works.

Speaker 2 (41:28):
So things were not looking good in Venezuela, to
say the least, and things werenot looking good for the future
of my marriage.
So I took the test to become aforeign commercial service
officer and I passed.
And my son, you, my daughterand I left Venezuela to go to my

(41:51):
first assignment in Monterrey,mexico, reserved at the
consulate.

Speaker 1 (41:55):
Shout out to Monterrey Mexico.

Speaker 2 (41:57):
Shout out to Monterrey.
It kind of changed thetrajectory of your life because
that's where you discovered thatyou were going to make a very
profound decision to join the USAir Force.
Am I allowed to ask youquestions?

Speaker 1 (42:12):
Can you tell me about ?
I mean, this is kind of.
This is an open format, there'sno rules.
Yeah, of course, you can ask mequestions.

Speaker 2 (42:19):
So tell me about how that decision felt to you when
you were making it and how, nowthat you look back, how it
helped shape your life.

Speaker 1 (42:35):
I took an aptitude test when I was in high school
the rare times that I was thereAnd it said I should have joined
the military.
Yeah, and I always thought theCoast Guard, like I was like I'm
going to join the Coast Guard,i don't know why It seemed cool,
seemed more technical, you know, the Coast Guard seemed very
technical, like they were doingtechnical water operations kind

(42:55):
of thing, and I was like I'mgoing to.
You know, that was a thing.
But then I moved to Monterreyand my best friend was going to
school at UF and he was likedude, come to UF.
And I was like, deep downinside, i was partying so much
in Mexico and just doing Godknows what And if I know, if I

(43:16):
would have gone to UF, i wouldhave lost the plot, you know.
So, deep down is my cousin hadjust joined the Navy And we
literally went to McAllen, texas, and walked into the recruiting
office for the Navy and it wasfull and the Air Force was empty
And the Air Force, the AirForce office, was completely

(43:40):
empty And I was like, i don'tknow, i'm just joined the Air
Force.
So it was.
I knew deep down inside that itwas part of my, it was going to
be part of my story.
But the decision wasn't adecision that was made.
It was made more out ofcuriosity, which is how I make
most of my decisions, just kindof like, oh you know, kind of
bumping into things And I'm like, oh, this was cool.
And then took the test andjoined And you know, i knew,

(44:05):
looking back on, it was the bestdecision that I could ever made
.
They gave me a ton ofresponsibility at a really young
age and gave me the kind of theparental structure that I
needed that I didn't have, youknow, because of the chaos of
growing up.
And you know, i got a ton ofresponsibility and made great

(44:25):
friends And it was the best, youknow, the best decision I could
have made.
And leaving the military alsowas the one of the best decision
I ever made.
It was really tough, but eightyears, you know, was a great run
And I'm, you know, very proudto be a veteran.
So yeah, looking back on, it isone of the best decisions I
ever made And it gave me someinfrastructure and some tools

(44:46):
that I'll use for the rest of mylife.

Speaker 2 (44:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:49):
I agree.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:51):
Monterey was an important place for all of us.

Speaker 1 (44:53):
Monterey was an important place for a lot of us.
I remember and I'll probablyget emotional about this, but I
just remember how welcomingMexicans were for me.
You know They were just greatpeople.
You know I still have lifelongfriends that are there.
So, yeah, it was, it was atumultuous time for me but it
was a very formative time for me.
Like I got accepted into thisgroup of friends that were just

(45:15):
incredible people And they'restill they're still friends of
mine today And they're stillvery close knit And it's very
rare for that, that group orthat society in Mexico to accept
foreigners.
You know, and I was just, ifelt very honored to be part of
that, to that group in somecapacity.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
So, yeah, And I wonder to what extent the fact
that you had lived there, inyour form I mean, you lived
there, we moved there in 1984,85, and you lived there for a
couple of years I wonder ifeverything felt from, even
though the culture in Montereyis quite distinct from where we
lived in Cadejo.

Speaker 1 (45:56):
And I remember flying into Monterey and everything so
sandy.
You remember that it was likeso arid because we were in
Caracas and Caracas is one ofthe greatest cities in the world
, beautiful, tropical, you knowforest City of eternal spring.
Yeah, exactly.
And then we were flying intoMonterey.
I was like, wow, this is sodifferent.

(46:16):
I remember being, i remember itbeing so bright.
Yeah, i remember it being sobright And that was interesting.
Yeah, okay, so Monterey.

Speaker 2 (46:27):
So from Monterey I was assigned to Bucharest,
romania.
Sorry, i was sorry.
From Monterey.
I, in Monterey, i starteddating this guy online And he
was just had the most beautifulheart of anybody I'd ever met in

(46:48):
my life.
He was just a person that younever walked away from him
without feeling better, justbetter, about life.
He was just.
He was the pastor's son, notthe first pastor's son I've
dated.
I dated a few actually.
He was just an incredible humanbeing And we had dated.
You know it was an online Imean a long distance

(47:12):
relationship, but he had been toMonterey.
So I was sent to Washington DCto study Romanian because that
was my assignment And he livedin Baltimore And so our
relationship just got deeper anddeeper.
And then, when I moved toRomania, your sister came with

(47:34):
us, came with me and you wereback in and at that point you
were in.

Speaker 1 (47:38):
England.
I was stationed in England,yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:40):
Which was great, because we're all going to be in
.

Speaker 1 (47:42):
Europe, yeah, yeah, it was wonderful.

Speaker 2 (47:45):
We've done that really well And I was profoundly
in love with this man,profoundly.
And you know, things were alittle messy with his former
life and he was cleaning that upAnd we had kind of talked about
our future.
I was convinced that we weregoing to be married.

(48:08):
And so he came to visit me inNovember and progressed and this
was 18 years ago.
And this was 18 years ago, yes,yeah, and I was going to be for
Christmas that year.
I was going to be by myself,and what was great about him
visiting me was that he meteverybody that I worked with and

(48:30):
everybody just fell in lovewith him And he saw where I
lived and we just had a magicaltime.
I remember it was veryemotional during that when he
was there.
I was just very, very emotionaland I couldn't quite understand
what was going on.
But he said goodbye and flewback And then that Christmas I
was going to be by myself forthe first time since your dad

(48:52):
and I had gotten divorced.
And I was kind of scared And myparents, lo and behold, saw
that And even though my fatherhad Parkinson's at that time,
with early stages of Alzheimer's, they showed up, they upped his

(49:15):
meds and my father was on track.
It was the most beautifulChristmas gift I could have ever
gotten in my life.
We just had such an amazingtime And on December 27th I went
to work.
My parents were still at homeand I went to work and I got a
phone call from my boyfriend Andhe was in a country in Africa

(49:43):
where he had gone to visit hisdaughter who was working as a
volunteer.
She's an incredible human being.
He has four kids and they'reall incredible human beings who
are making the world a betterplace.
And he his crown had fallen off, and I kept saying the prince
needed a new crown.
So he was in the capital cityof this African country and

(50:07):
called me and hey, i'm here withmy daughter, my crown fell off
and we're going to head off tothis refugee camp where she
worked as a volunteer.
And so I said, as I always didokay, great, i remember telling
him how wonderful he was.
It was just like and I had doneit before because I just

(50:29):
couldn't get over the fact howwonderful he was And I was just
saying, you know, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, and then at
the end of the conversation Isaid I love you.
And he missed a beat becausehis daughter was sitting right
there and he was always veryrespectful of that And he said I
love you too.
And he hung up And I went homeand 90 minutes later I got a

(50:51):
phone call from his mom and shesaid we just got a phone call
from the country he was visitingand they think he's dead.
And I said oh yeah, i justtalked to him 90 minutes ago.
Don't worry, there's someconfusion.
She said there was a body withlaying next to the car that he

(51:17):
the Jeep he had rented, and like, don't worry about it.
I got this.
I'm going to make some phonecalls to my counterparts in that
country.
He's not dead.
And lo and behold, he was.
And it sent me into a tailspin,my divorce, because it was the
end of a dream and somethingthat was unacceptable.

(51:41):
In my family You don't getdivorced, no matter what You
stick it out.
That was really really, really,really hard.
This was pain on a differentlevel than I never felt, because
I never lost anybody before andcertainly not lost anybody
suddenly, and there's all sortsof different kinds of grief, and

(52:01):
the loss, the sudden loss, ofsomeone is a completely
different level.
I remember I was pacing thefloor in the living room and my
father and then I finally justkind of collapsed on the couch
And I was holding my head in myhands and I'm going no, no, no,

(52:22):
no.
And my father was standing overme and he's saying sin, don't
worry.
It's not him.
It's not him, it's.
This is somebody.
This is a and my mother, whohad lost her only brother in a
sudden car accident same type ofhead injury.
They also believed that he wasokay, which is what happened to

(52:42):
my boyfriend at the time.
They thought he was okay And hewaved his daughter on because
she had broken her leg and hesaid don't worry, you go ahead.
And then he died.
The exact same thing hadhappened to my mother's younger
brother, had a head injury, wentto the hospital, the hospital
sent my grandparents home and hedied Ding ding, ding.

Speaker 1 (53:06):
Yeah, right Geez.

Speaker 2 (53:08):
Yeah, so I remember my mom in the background pacing
back and forth, and she knew,she absolutely knew.
I didn't know what to do, so Iwent to bed everything on me
hurt, my hair hurt.
I did not know what I was in Mybody physically, was in so much
pain, which I think is theembedded trauma.

(53:30):
I was reliving everything thatmy mother had relived because I
had inherited that trauma in mygenes, in my DNA, and this is
going to sound strange, but I'mgoing to say it anyway, because
this is who I am.
I remember all of a sudden itwas like a gold-spun blanket

(53:53):
came up from the foot of the bedand slowly covered my entire
body until it got up to my neckAnd I sat out loud, tom Wow, and
I went to sleep and I sleptdeeply.
Your sister had sort of been indenial about the divorce and

(54:22):
you had been a bit more vocal inyour pain and she hadn't, which
is sort of true to yourcharacters.
She's since learned tools toutilize.
So we were in Bucharest, i wasa hot mess and she was walking

(54:46):
down the street in front of meand she stopped and she turned
around.
She had big crocodile tearsrunning down her face and I said
are you ready?
And she said yes, she was readyfor therapy.
I'm like okay, clearly I needit.

(55:06):
So I had started with atherapist before this.
My boyfriend died and she wasin therapy.
I was in therapy and as soon asmy boyfriend died and I hadn't
been in that many sessions withthis therapist of mine and I
called him up and he said I saidthis happened and he said how
soon can you get here?

(55:26):
And I said I can't, i can'teven move.
And he said how soon can youget here?
Come now.
And I got in the car and Idrove there, i don't know how,
and he said that's when I knewyou were going to be okay
because you came.
So he said to me there's thiskind of therapy that we're going
to be doing in the mountains,the Carpathian Mountains this

(55:49):
summer, and it lasts 10 days andI think it's going to help you.
And I was in such a bad statethat if he had said to me light
your hair on fire and run downthe street naked, anything, i
would have done literallyanything to feel better, because
I didn't know what to do withthis massive grief that I felt.

(56:13):
And so that summer I went and Ireally I hadn't done any
research on this and what I wasgoing to be doing, I just showed
up.
And so he died in December andthis was in July.
So I show up and there are 33,there are 33 Romanians.

(56:40):
I was the only American.
They had brought in afacilitator from Spain who I
walked in this very large roomand I saw him at the back of the
room and I remember looking upthrough this haze of pain that I

(57:03):
was in, and I saw him and therewas just instant recognition.
There was just an instant.
He saw me, i saw him and thatwas it.
It was just a fleeting moment,and then he proceeded to teach
this group of people how tobecome facilitators in the kind

(57:28):
of therapy that he was going tobe instructing on and the
therapy, that which ultimatelytruly saved my life And of the
group, i believe there were 33of us and three of us were not
therapists.
So if you believe in a knowingfield of consciousness, if you

(57:54):
believe in energy, if youbelieve in quantum physics, if
you believe in what you put out,you get back.
The level of consciousness inthat room, as well as the level
of trauma, was just incredible,because quite often therapists
in their past are trying to healthemselves and they're drawn to

(58:15):
that kind of a career becausethey want the answers.
My mother would have been anincredible psychologist.
She would have been anincredible architect.
She would have been anincredible CEO.
She was a very, very gifted,very, very smart woman.
So those 10 days it was as if welived in this bubble and I

(58:41):
became aware of how intertwinedmy trauma was with my mother's.
So we did a constellation whenit was my turn to do a
constellation.
The facilitator invited me tocome and sit next to him in the

(59:05):
hot seat And at the beginning,you know, i'm looking at this
process and I'm thinking they'reall actors And I couldn't, you
know, i just I didn't, i didn'tbelieve that there was any way
that I could have somehowmysteriously transmitted my
truth to these people.

(59:26):
And until the facilitatorinvited me to represent someone
who was in the hot seat and Ifelt this strange energy and not
very many words were spoken.
But, as the facilitatorinstructed me, if you cannot
resist the urge to go right, towalk to your right within the

(59:51):
confines of the circle and allthe other people present are
sitting around you, if youcannot resist that urge, go
right.

Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
So can I set the stage a little bit?
So it's a ballroom, yes, right,and it's basically an open
floor space and there's 33people sitting in a very, very
large circle, sitting next toeach other, and at the, you know
, at one end is the facilitatorwith an open chair and you're

(01:00:21):
sitting in that chair, in thiscircle, and that circle is
called the knowing field, andsome and some like that's the
terminology that they use isthat this is the knowing field.

Speaker 2 (01:00:33):
Yes, thank you.
No, just some people don't knowwhat family constellations are
in.
So when it was my turn to havemy constellation done, the
number of representatives thathad to be pulled in to the
knowing field, to the circle,was incredible.

(01:00:56):
I think almost every singleperson in the room was part of
my constellation.
It was just a huge, huge, hugecircle of people that were there
supporting me and theinformation that I was
transmitting to them, with very,very few words And the reason

(01:01:19):
and I don't know how much you'vegone into this in past
interviews you've done but weare so loyal to our systems that
we literally can't see patternsand we can't see loyalties that
are deeply embedded in oursubconscious mind that drive us

(01:01:41):
to make choices and to act outthings that aren't necessarily
in correlation with our valuesor who we are.
You know, sometimes you look atfamilies and the same parents
raise three children and onechild is completely opposite

(01:02:01):
from another child and you thinkthey were raised in the same
environment.
How can that happen?
And quite often the explanationare these loyalties They're
adopting something which doesn'tbelong to them.
So I had adopted many thingsthat didn't belong to me and in

(01:02:23):
subsequent constellations thatI've participated in, i've come
to know the truth, and that is,our loyalties are so deep we
will violate ourselves at anycost.
We will die.
some people die out of loyaltyto those systems that we're not

(01:02:46):
even conscious of, and so what aconstellation does is, when
it's your turn to do theconstellation done for you.
you select people in that groupto represent you or to
represent, usually, your familyof origin.

(01:03:06):
you always come in thinking, oh, i'm going to do a
constellation about my boyfriendor my problem at work.
It usually always starts withyour family of origin, but you
could never act out as yourmother.
You could never represent yourmother or your father or even
you in that circumstance becauseof these loyalties.

(01:03:31):
But the people who arerepresenting your family or you,
they don't know anything aboutyou.

Speaker 1 (01:03:39):
It's like the same.
It's like you lose the forestfor the trees.

Speaker 2 (01:03:42):
Yeah, you can't see the forest for the trees Yeah,
you can't see the forest for thetrees.

Speaker 1 (01:03:46):
Or it's like when somebody that's really close to
you says something, like yourspouse says something to you,
you're crazy.
And then a friend that'soutside of the system says
something you're like absolutely, i've been doing that.
It's like a similar energy tothat right.

Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
Yes, yeah, absolutely , and it's something that needs
to be experienced.

Speaker 1 (01:04:05):
Oh yeah, yeah, it's so she.

Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
It needs to be experienced because, as I'm
sitting here talking about it,it just sounds like weirdo,
voodoo, craziness, right.
And that's what I thought WhenI first saw these people laying
on the floor in front of me andI see the facilitator in the
background 18 years ago, and I'mlike what the heck is this?

(01:04:32):
Until I'm in that seat and I'mseeing all of these things
coming together.
Oh, oh so, oh, i okay, okay.
So the person representing mymother is looking down at a
person who's representing herbrother on the ground.

(01:04:56):
The person representing mymother doesn't know what
happened to my mother.
The person on the grounddoesn't know what happened to
her brother, and the person onthe ground representing her
brother says to the facilitatorI feel like I'm two people.
He was representing my mother'sonly brother and he was

(01:05:17):
representing my boyfriend whohad been killed in an accident
of a head injury.
So I'm happy to say I've donemany, many, many constellations
throughout the years and withdifferent facilitators, and I'm
happy to report now, 18 yearslater, there's a lot less people

(01:05:42):
in that circle representing myancestors.

Speaker 1 (01:05:50):
But it never stops.

Speaker 2 (01:05:52):
And I just did a constellation this past summer I
mean not this fall in Chicago,and so that facilitator has
everyone who is present puttheir name in a hat If they want
.
No, even if they don't want toparticipate, if they're there,
their name is going into a hat.

(01:06:13):
And then the people who aregoing to do a constellation a
paper is selected and your nameis read and you're going to do a
constellation And I've said inthe past, i'm not going to do
one, i'm just here to supportthe others.
And the facilitator is like no,if you're here, your name is
going in the hat, because ifyou're supposed to do a

(01:06:35):
constellation, you need to haveyour name in the hat.
And it's going to be drawn Andlo and behold, i was convinced
and I'm like I don't really haveanything to work on.

Speaker 1 (01:06:47):
And now I'm quote unquote healed.
We're all so healed.

Speaker 2 (01:06:52):
Chokes on me because that constellation turned out to
be the beginning of somethingso incredibly profound, a theme
in our family dynamic that wasso incredibly profound that it
needed to be brought out to thelight.

(01:07:12):
And it was.
And for me, it started me on apath to healing and wholeness
that I literally didn't knowexisted.
I didn't know I had, i hadsuppressed this, this part of me
, so deeply out of loyalty thatI couldn't see it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:32):
Yeah, and there's, there's a book called even if it
cost me, even if it cost me mylife, that worse that the force
of loyalty.
I truly believe that the forceof loyalty is the strongest
force in human connection.
But so, with what that said,you know this isn't the only
type of therapy that you've done.
You've done many modalities oftherapy.

(01:07:52):
Can you go through kind of theones that you have done and yeah
, so I actually started.

Speaker 2 (01:07:59):
I was, i wanted to major in psychology And I think
my father wasn't the first timetold me, no, you will not.
I wanted to major in socialwork.
No, you will not.
I also wanted to go to quitcollege and go to Hollywood
because, again, i wanted to bean actor and he said, no, you
will not.
So when I was in college I tooksome psychology class.

(01:08:21):
I was just intrigued with thetopic and I would volunteer for
any time.
They needed people to come to.
The psych department neededpeople to come in Sometimes.
I remember one time I had to gointo a booth with a camera, with
a camera, point it at my eyesand then talk about a subject
that was heavy on my heart andit I think it was my

(01:08:43):
relationship with my father, andthey would just record my eyes.
So I that's really the firsttime I started delving into
psychology and then a little bitof therapy around our divorce,
but not very much.
And, to be honest, the onlyreason I asked your father to go

(01:09:05):
to this therapist with me wasbecause I knew the therapist was
going to convince him that hewas in love with me and that he
could never leave me.
I knew it And then I did.
I fast forward.
I didn't do therapy for a whileuntil, actually, until my

(01:09:29):
boyfriend died and then I gotinto it in a deep way.
I did therapy when I was inCalgary, canada, my youngest
sister, who was 18 monthsyounger than I am, died a very
quick death.
It was a long, slow, fourmonths from diagnosis to death.

(01:09:53):
Four months transpired And Iliterally felt like someone had
removed a third of my body.
And I remember thinking I can'tdo this, there's no way,
because, really, if you hadasked me, tell me the worst

(01:10:16):
thing that could happen to you,that there's no way you could
survive.
There's three things, and notthis order, but one of them
would have been the death of oneof my sisters because, as my
sister has famously said, myolder sister, sue, we were like
a three-legged stool And, wow,you ripped, literally ripped,

(01:10:42):
one of those legs off and bothof us wobbled for years, for
years.
So this therapist, who is justan amazing human being, she
really, really saved me.
She absolutely saved me fromwhat I thought was going to be

(01:11:03):
the end of me.
I didn't ever think, i didn'tthink, i knew I would never take
my own life.
I always knew that because Iwould never do that, because you
two are the most importantthings that always happen in my
life, but I just didn't know howI was going to live.

Speaker 1 (01:11:20):
But we all know that there's other ways of doing that
.
Yes, you know there's otherways of doing that, and that's
the tough part is that you mightnot physically do it, but there
might be a disease that happensor something that happens, and
then, within, a short period oftime you're gone, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:11:37):
Yeah, and then I got therapy.
When I was in Washington DC.
I found a therapist becausePolish is a really, really,
really hard language to learnAnd I started learning it in
person.
I was assigned to work at theembassy in Warsaw, poland.

(01:11:58):
A lot of people don't like togo to that post because language
is so hard And languagelearning, i've discovered, does
not get easier with age.
So I and it was my full-timejob.
So the US government does anamazing job of training its
foreign service officers to beable to engage in the language

(01:12:20):
of their host nation.
It's one of the things we'reknown for and it makes so much
sense And it puts us in a verydifferent position when we're
engaging with host governments,because it's not just that you
can converse with them.
They you know, let's be honest,most government officials speak
English, certainly in thedeveloped markets, where the

(01:12:44):
federal agency that I worked forare in, but the fact that you
took the time and the governmentprovided resources for you to
understand their language, is itjust you walk in, even if you
just say a few words, and italso helps you understand the
culture?
Yeah, how you know, how can youlive, thrive and strengthen

(01:13:07):
ties in my case, commercial tiesbetween the United States and
the country I'm serving in, if Idon't even speak the language.

Speaker 1 (01:13:16):
Even if you don't have cultural context, it'll be
impossible to connect.

Speaker 2 (01:13:19):
Yeah, Yeah, Lots of lots of US companies blunder big
time Just because of that.
They don't understand theculture of the country that
they're doing business.
They're trying to do businessin.
So I was.
COVID broke out and I wasrelegated to a very, very small

(01:13:40):
apartment in Arlington Virginiaand doing online courses And
very challenging teacher.
Yeah, the world shut down and Iwas by myself in this very small
apartment And remember whenCOVID first started and you

(01:14:02):
would go to the grocery store,you know, mask up, get gloves,
swab the shopping cart down, andthey had arrows on the ground
so that you wouldn't, you know,come face to face with another
shopper.
And when you would turn thecorner and they're a shopper
would be, you know, like youknow, like the invisible terror,

(01:14:22):
exactly.
You would rush home and wipeyour groceries down, and I mean
it was.
It was terrifying because wedidn't know, nobody knew.
We'd never lived through thisbefore, and to say that that was
challenging for me would be anunderstatement.
I am a total extrovert.

(01:14:43):
I live off connecting withpeople and I was desperately,
desperately lonely.
My partner slash boyfriend.
We would talk on the phone afew times a day, but he was
living in another country and Icouldn't see him.
I couldn't see you and yoursister.
I couldn't see my sister.

(01:15:04):
I couldn't see anybody.
There's just no chance forinteracting with people, and I
was.
I was and it's interestingbecause I have all these two.
I really do have knowledge of alot of tools.
So I was doing everything thatI knew I needed to do.
I was getting a lot of sleep, iwas eating really healthy, i

(01:15:25):
went to the grocery store everysingle day, i was meditating and
I either walk, walked or ranevery single day along the river
.
I got outside every single dayAnd even with all of that, i was
struggling.
I was really struggling.
I felt lonelier than I've everfelt in my entire life, and so I

(01:15:49):
found a therapist and we didonline until things started
opening up a little bit more andwe could, at the end, start
meeting in person, and that wasthat was extremely helpful.
And I guess I'm I'munderscoring the importance of

(01:16:09):
what I went through during COVID, because I think part of what
we're seeing play out now on thestreets, with the increased
violence which just it feelssometimes like the world is on
fire, and I think that if peoplewent into COVID kind of
teetering, and they didn't havethe tools that they needed,

(01:16:33):
covid sent a lot of people overthere, people's people.
People died, so many peopledied.
They lost their loved ones andthey couldn't say goodbye to
them in their final moments.

Speaker 1 (01:16:45):
Yeah, it's like the, it's like a forced sadness, it's
like a forced tragedy, it's,it's so yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:16:52):
I mean, we've lived through some of the most
honoring, respectful, beautifulexperiences in saying goodbye to
our loved ones that you couldhave.
I simply can't fathom if mysister had died during COVID and

(01:17:13):
we couldn't usher her out ofthe world in the way that we did
.
I don't.
I can't imagine the level ofpain that I would have right now
.
So and lost jobs, lost incomes,people lost their homes.

Speaker 1 (01:17:27):
You know businesses.

Speaker 2 (01:17:29):
I mean, it changed the world.
It was a huge paradigm shift.
There are many gifts in it.
There are many, many gifts inCOVID, but we're not addressing
the trauma that that cause.
it's just like, okay, we'reback and we're back to the
office and, oh, you don't havechildcare.
Okay, we'll figure it out.

Speaker 1 (01:17:49):
And just get back to the office.

Speaker 2 (01:17:51):
It's not the Department of Commerce.
Our Secretary of Commerce isaddressing that the importance
of having on-site childcare.

Speaker 1 (01:18:01):
So you know what was what's really interesting that
they talk?
so Gabor Monti talks about this, talks about not everybody, so
not every soldier that goes towar comes back with PTSD.
So there's a percentage ofsoldiers that come back with
PTSD and they usually haveunresolved childhood trauma.
And so what I think withadverse events that are later in

(01:18:24):
your life are retraumatizationevents that happen.
So if you're, you know, ifyou're in that place, and
there's so many people out therethat have unresolved trauma
that gets exacerbated duringadverse events, and that's like
such a thing that we don't talkabout.
Everybody says it's like it'sCOVID's fault.
It's like that's not reallyCOVID's fault.

(01:18:45):
Life's going to happen, you'regoing to have something that
unexpectedly happens And if it's, if that core childhood you
know the ACE thing, you know theadverse childhood experience
gets re-triggered, you're goingto be in a really bad place.
And so it's like kind ofunderstanding those dynamics and
understand, like, andunderstanding that at scale,

(01:19:08):
that we really have to have anational conversation about that
.

Speaker 2 (01:19:12):
Absolutely Yeah, And I'm kind of a case study or the
poster child for that, because Iwas seemingly, you know this
person, you know I functionedand pretty high functioning and
I made it through life until.
I had a divorce and it was Ispiraled down.
I lost this man that I withwhom I was deeply in love, and I

(01:19:37):
spiraled down.
I lost my sister and I spiraleddown.
And those are like the bigthree that I can think of.
But I've had lots of otherstuff.
And if I didn't have access tothe tools that I do, if these
people because I really am, i'ma deep believer in God and I

(01:19:59):
deeply believe that God doesn'tcause bad things to happen, but
God will use those things tohelp you become who you are
meant to be and to help you heal.
And I would never say, gosh, iwish I that was so great.
I got divorced.

Speaker 1 (01:20:17):
I'm so glad my boyfriend died.

Speaker 2 (01:20:19):
So glad my younger sister died, but oh my gosh, i'm
so incredibly grateful that Igot to have those experiences,
with the help of people who wereplaced in my path, who would
show me this is the lesson thatyou can learn from this.

(01:20:40):
We all have adversity,everybody has adversity, and
it's just what we do with it.
Some people, something tragiccan happen to them and it ends
them.
Other people will look at thattragedy and say, oh my gosh, god
, this was a horrible thing thathappened.
But what's the one grain that Ican take?

(01:21:00):
Can I learn anything from this?
And I think one of the goodthings that came about as a
result of COVID is people aretalking about the fact that they
need help, they are reachingout.
I know people who havesteadfastly refused to get help
their entire lives who aresuddenly saying out loud yeah.

(01:21:24):
My therapist said wow, that'sso awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:21:28):
That's so awesome.
And what I think happened withCOVID, too, is there was an
opening of the system In theconsolation world.
When people are going throughhealing, sometimes they get
really sick.
Right after a big movement, youget really sick And I keep

(01:21:50):
going back to this thought thatthat's what COVID was, because
there is a shifting inconsciousness.
But you know, what tells me morethat there's a shifting in
consciousness Is that there'sthis other, there's this
movement globally.
That is like you're going toown nothing and you're going to

(01:22:12):
like it.
And so there's this oppositeforce, kind of muddying the
water of what the true shiftingconsciousness is, which is that
we're systemically connected asthis one consciousness rather
than being individuals, justkind of living our lives and
going about it without anyunderstanding of our

(01:22:33):
relationship to each other,understanding that there is some
intelligence that's inside thesystem.
And so there's this opposingforce that's saying, like you
know, you're going to like thisCarl Schwab, or what not?
Is it Carl Schwab, the guy fromthere's this Darth Vader dude
that's out in Europe?
that's like you know, speakingabout this new world, you know

(01:22:55):
reimagining of how the world'sgoing to be, and it's like this,
it's like the opposite of whatis actually seems like, what is
actually happening, that there'sthis conscious awakening,
because you see it in culture.
Everybody's starting to talkabout unresolved trauma.
Everybody's starting to talkabout collective consciousness.
Everybody's starting to talkabout these things that you know
the hippies and the crystalsand they've been talking about

(01:23:16):
that for years, but it'sstarting to become part of our
language.
Let's get this fundamentalshift, which is really
interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:23:23):
Yeah, and the merger of spirituality and science.

Speaker 1 (01:23:27):
Yeah, so exciting.

Speaker 2 (01:23:30):
And you know, i, as I said, i'm, i'm, i'm, generally
speaking, an optimistic person.
I've learned to recognize theimportance of of acknowledging
dark, because it's there.

Speaker 1 (01:23:42):
Yeah, And it's, you know, it's part of it's part of
life.

Speaker 2 (01:23:45):
The world is created in perfect balance and like
couldn't exist if there wasn'tdark.
But what I find so fascinatingnow, with each one of these
experiences and and this, thishealing journey that I'm on it,
the coincidences or Godincidences become more and more

(01:24:07):
frequent And it I would neverbecome nonchalant to that
happening, but I can recognizeit now.
So when I get on a plane and Isit down and start talking to
the, the person next to me andher husband is a psychologist
and we're both we're all threeof us are flying out to

(01:24:27):
California and she's the motherof three girls and one of her
daughters is a psychologist Andthe, the husband, is flying out
to California to win an awardfor this trauma center He set up
.
He's a psychiatrist, sorry.
He doesn't believe inmedication, doesn't believe in
giving people medication.
We're traumatized.
He believes in working on theroot cause And I'm like, of
course, like that's so cool.

(01:24:48):
It's so cool.
I never talked to the personsitting next to me because I
don't want to bother them.
Yeah, They kind of test thewaters and if they put their
headphones on, I'm like.

Speaker 1 (01:24:56):
I get it, i'm a chatty person.

Speaker 2 (01:24:57):
I like to talk to people.
Not everybody does, especiallyon a plane, but it it just
absolutely.
it makes me feel humbled whenthat happens because it's like a
hey, pay attention, payattention, plug in and pay
attention.

Speaker 1 (01:25:15):
So there's, um, there's, there's a really
interesting.
So I've, you know, you've heardof the secret, right, the the
secret.
I think that that, in itscurrent interpretation, is
bullshit.
Right, it's like I don't thinkthat you can be like, think your
way to success, you know, like,and then you'll manifest,

(01:25:35):
you'll like change the materialof the world and Like, change
the world in front of you.
Right, that you can't like belike I want a Ferrari, i want a
Ferrari, and then, like,somebody just pulls up with
Ferrari.
You know, i don't think thatthat's the case.
But what I do think is this isthat the world, the reality, is
in a superposition, like inquantum physics.

(01:25:57):
Right, anything can, ispossible in that moment, right
in front of you.
And what trauma does It?
doesn't allow you to see theworld of possibilities and
connect to your intuition.
So you could have been on thatflight And if you would have
been in a different place inyour life, you would have not
talked to them or not seen thepotential paths that could have

(01:26:17):
happened or the potentialrealities that could have
unfolded.
Right, and Every single momentwhere we have these micro
decisions that change the courseof the ship and And suddenly,
20 years later, the ship is in acompletely different place and
a completely different reality.
That is that reality that youmanifested, rather than being

(01:26:38):
down the you know trauma path,right?
So I think that in somecapacity you can think your
future, but it's like you thinkyour future in these micro
moments That changed the courseof your life to that place.
Does that make sense?
You put that beautifully.

Speaker 2 (01:26:55):
Yep, absolutely.
And I think the importance ofsaying yes, thanks mom, the
importance of saying yes, it cannever, never be underestimated.
You know that the the wholenotion of feel the fear and do
it anyway.
It's working, working on yourstuff.
It's hard work, oh it sucks.

(01:27:16):
But the alternative is so muchworse and people don't realize.
And you know I've talked topeople and They're mired in so
much pain and I just want to saywork on your shit.

Speaker 1 (01:27:33):
Work on your shit.
Work on your shit.

Speaker 2 (01:27:39):
Because what lies on the other side is peace and
healing, and you can healbalance and balance, and you can
heal it so that For futuregenerations that's not part of
your legacy.
Yeah, their legacy is gonna.
Your legacy is gonna besomething different.
It's not gonna be perfect whatyou pass on, but it's going to
look quite different than whatyou inherited.

Speaker 1 (01:28:01):
But there's so many people that say that this is
such a like prevalent thought.
They're like, well, i had to gothrough it.
It's like, yeah, you're, you'rebeing loyal to your system,
like there it can be different,it can be completely different.
They can go.
Your kids can have their ownpath without, without all the
traumatic, you know, or like thekarmatic load that you're

(01:28:21):
bringing in from all the traumaof your family system.
So you don't have to, theydon't have to necessarily go
through that.
They can like having an easylife Not an easy life, but a
life that's in flow, that youcan choose to do hard things
Because you're in that state offlow is a great place to be.

Speaker 2 (01:28:37):
Yeah, you know and and to do it naturally.
Yeah without with ease.
And without necessarily beingmedicated.
You know, that that you knowoff the coast of Florida, right
here, if you test the water,guess what you're gonna find.
Yeah, i mean anti-depressantsand ocean and I'm not saying
that Pharmacetical solutionsdon't have a place, because they

(01:29:02):
absolutely do, but I think thatit's it.
It.
I think that big pharma andinsurance are doing a huge
injustice To our system.
We're so focused on treatingpeople instead of preventing
Illnesses, including preventingmental illnesses, because

(01:29:22):
there's a lot of tools that youcan utilize That will help
Minimize the impact of whateveryou're going through, so that
you don't reach a state whereyou're catatonic Because you've
gone through trauma.

Speaker 1 (01:29:35):
So some of these like something you know.
Some of the anti anxietymedications are great for
Somebody that's going through avery intense phase.
Yeah, short, but it's short termand they're very effective to
get somebody off the ledge andthey can get into.
You know traditional therapy ordo some.
You know new modality.
They're very effective for that.
But it's turned into like theshort term is turned into a long

(01:29:56):
term.
It's like you're supposed touse some of these medications
for like four weeks and somepeople have been on them for ten
years.
Just turning that part off oftheir body, like turning part,
that part off of their senses.
They're just shutting, they'redimming the light on such an
important aspect of who they are.
That is really an alarm system,like anxiety is is.

(01:30:17):
You know, being grateful toanxiety shows you where to heal.
Being grateful to depressionsays there's some stuff that you
have to look at here That's on.
That's hidden under all thiscrap that will make your life
better.
On the other side, where's like, oh, i'm gonna turn that off.
You know, take this pill andlet's turn that thing off.
Not to say that taking the pillto To temporarily get you out

(01:30:41):
of really dark places areextremely effective and
important tool.
But man, long term He's likeyou gotta look at this really
ugly stuff.
I.

Speaker 2 (01:30:51):
Think what's happening in the field of
plant-based medicine is just soincredibly Exciting, and I think
that's the future.

Speaker 1 (01:31:00):
That's why it's so important to protect the Amazon.
Yeah, yeah, it's reallyexciting, and you mean like
ayahuasca.

Speaker 2 (01:31:07):
Yes, i was good Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:31:10):
Yeah, i mean, how do you, how do you square that?
How do you square that like,how do you come to terms with
that?
Because constellations isalready like people are right,
like what.
I thought you guys were in acult.
When you guys first Talked totalk to me about constellations,

(01:31:31):
i was like, oh, my mom and mysister in the cult now.
So they're crazy people andthey're gonna go to drink the
Kool-Aid and you know new Guineaor whatever.
And You know like then I sawconstellations.
I'm like, wow, this is a thing.
Then I had to technicallyanswer the question, which I did
.
See Rupert Sheldrake, see, youknow Morphic residency, quantum

(01:31:54):
entanglement, see all thosethings.
That's kind of like thetechnical side of it.
But, um, how do you like?
so Constellations is a step farlike way out of people's
comfort zones.
How do you get to the place oflike Doing ayahuasca, like how
does that?
how do you get to that place?

Speaker 2 (01:32:15):
So the way that I look at constellations in
ayahuasca, constellation helpsPut in alignment the hardware
Okay, and ayahuasca helps put inalignment the software Wow.
So you marry the two and it's,it's the perfect combination for

(01:32:38):
a whole and healed person.

Speaker 1 (01:32:42):
That's a very good way of putting it.

Speaker 2 (01:32:45):
The reason that I was attracted to ayahuasca was
because you and your sister, iyou brought it to me and I Saw
changes taking place.
I saw a piece, an insight thatI Was attracted to and I wanted
to learn more about it.

(01:33:06):
Um, ayahuasca, i don't know.
If you want to explain.
Yeah a little bit, i don't know.
I mean, i know that the Indiansin Peru have been for a
thousand years Mixing the barkof the tree with something else
and diluting it down, dilutingit down.

Speaker 1 (01:33:22):
Um, there's a whole theory.
First There's theory I Can't Ithink it's like Dennis McKenna
This stone-daked theory thatsays that how lower primates
like how monkeys and stuffBecame, their brains grew to
humans was through psychedelicexperiences.
There's a whole theory.
And then there's another theory.

(01:33:44):
There's a guy named GrahamHancock That was saying that I'm
not, i'm paraphrasing this andI'm just kind of loosely basing
it, so don't take it to the bank.
But um, there's this othertheory that says that
potentially all religiousexperiences are experiences that
come from psychedelics.
That you know, theinterpretation of the burning

(01:34:05):
bush, the interpretation of the,you know, like the of the, many
of the stories of the bible,are these profound insights that
come from the realm of.
You know psychedelics.
So it's like And after goingthrough those experiences,
you're like oh well, that makessense.
You know like, that's a, that'sa thing, so.
But you know, people have beentaking this medicine for many,

(01:34:27):
many years and it is medicine.
It's not a fun thing to do It'sa therapeutic process.
It's not a, you know.
It's not a like oh, i'm gonnago party and do this like I
would prefer to do a millionth.
I prefer to get a root canalthan to do that.

Speaker 2 (01:34:44):
There's zero chance you're gonna become an addict.

Speaker 1 (01:34:46):
Yeah exactly It's like if you're addicted to that
like man, you're a gland forpunishment, but it's it's
extraordinarily useful and Kindof uncovering, like a, like a
shock to the system kind of, orlike a restructuring of the
system that really brings out acompletely different perspective

(01:35:07):
.
If consolation does that forthe here and now, which is the
kind of the, the known realm, itdoes it for the unknown realm,
which is really interesting tosee.
It's like people lose fear ofdeath and you know they lose
fear of and they get to know Anentity of some people call god.
They get to know, go to thekind of um, you know vast

(01:35:32):
unknown of the universe orconsciousness, and it's Really
powerful.
Use correctly, you know somepeople won't, you know, kind of
Make it cool and that's not theway to.

Speaker 2 (01:35:43):
To me That's that doesn't seem like a good use of
the tool, but if usedappropriately it's, it's very
powerful so for me, the examplethat I go back to is I knew
through constellation work theimportance of honoring my mother
and my father And throughtraditional therapy.

(01:36:04):
I've done a lot of work aroundmy relationship with both of my
parents and I thought that I wasat peace with my mother Until I
did an ayahuasca ceremony.
I've done a few now.
My last ayahuasca ceremony Ijust had this opportunity to see

(01:36:27):
my mother in all of her glory,the, the magnificent woman that
she was, and to honor her And Ijust and I like I have this
connection ever since thatceremony.
I have this I'm profoundly Inlove with my mother To the point
where now, every morning when Iget up, there's a picture of

(01:36:50):
her I have on my area where I doprayers and meditations and I
light a candle And I feel inhonor of my mother.
It's just and now you know whenyou were, you were going back
full circle to the meditation Westarted with at the beginning
feeling her over my shoulder, ijust feel love.
I feel love and connection toher where in the past, my mom

(01:37:16):
Loved me.
She loved all three of us, butshe learned when she was nine
years old and her brother diedinstantly in a car crash, that
you can only extend love topeople outside of your immediate
circle because they'll be takenfrom you.
I knew that intellectually, butI never.

(01:37:37):
I I felt loved.
Psychologists once told me itdoesn't matter where you get
your feeling of love from, aslong as you feel it from one
person, you're gonna survive.
I was loved by my sister Sue.
She my Unconditional love myentire life from my sister Sue
and my sister Belinda.
Those were the people thatloved me.

(01:37:58):
I knew my parents loved mebecause you know they kind of
had to because I was their kid.

Speaker 1 (01:38:04):
But now legally required to.

Speaker 2 (01:38:06):
I feel a deep and profound love from my mother And
I don't think that if I haddone, not done ayahuasca, i
don't think that I would Feelthat peace and, most importantly
, that support.
It makes me be A better human.
It makes me be a more presentmother.

(01:38:28):
Oh, yeah, yeah then if I didn'thave that.

Speaker 1 (01:38:32):
So there's this.
I've been kind of wrestlingaround with this concept.
You know it's like the there's,there's, i think there's two of
us There's a physical us andthen there's like a spiritual us
And or, you know, some peoplecall it like the meta.
You know, like the meta motherright, so it's like your mother

(01:38:52):
in and, and I feel this, youknow, and, and some, some people
have the blessing to have boththat are aligned, like the
spiritual side and the physicalside are aligned, but some
people don't.
And I think that You know whenwe do that meditation, the
meditation, you know, for peoplethat that haven't listened to
the meditation, the meditationis like you close your eyes,
take these deep breaths And youimagine your mother behind your

(01:39:15):
left shoulder and your fatherbehind your right shoulder, and
then your grandparents behindthem and their great
grandparents behind them, and soon, until You know all.
You see all your ancestors Andwhat.
What you're really connectingto is like the meta mother right
, the meta father, the spiritualOf those people, the spiritual
representations in your ancestryof who those people are, and

(01:39:36):
those people are perfect andwhole and complete, and not The
embodied pain that they are inthis realm, and so like, if you,
if you're able to align thosetwo people I think that's what
healing is is that you align thespiritual and the physical.
To say The physical, thesethings happened or weren't

(01:39:57):
available or whatever that lookslike But the spiritual is whole
and I'm connect, deeplyconnected with that.
Even if you didn't know theperson, even if they, even if
they were abusive, if they'reyou know, if there was sexual
abuse, if there was anything,even any of those things, you
can still connect with the metaSpirit of that.
Does that make sense?
makes perfect sense, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:40:19):
Yeah, so profound And it's so exciting.
It's so exciting that there's apath.
There's a way forward that wedon't just, we're not just born
into the world and then weconsume a bunch of stuff and we
suffer a lot and then we die.

Speaker 1 (01:40:35):
Oh my gosh, oh my gosh, wow, yeah, and even people
that were adopted you can go to.
Everybody has a mother andfather, biological, like
everybody has two people.

Speaker 2 (01:40:46):
You're on birth through something, something,
and that could have been.

Speaker 1 (01:40:50):
It could have been the worst scenarios, but you're
still here for something and youcan honor that connection at
least.
And like one thing that'shappened to me, a lot is like
like I'm starting to look atreligion from like tradition,
not from, you know, not with allthe judgment, you know, like
there's a lot of judgment inreligion.
People look at religion likeyou know.

(01:41:11):
So Bert Hellinger, the guy that, the gentleman that started
family constellations, somebodywas saying at a workshop they
were saying are you, are you,are you religious?
And she said no, i'm spiritual.
And he said, oh, worse, becausethere's this implicit judgment
in religion.
Right, it's like it's so, it'slike you're, you're judging

(01:41:33):
tradition.
And I think religion, forwhatever, for whatever reason,
is a, is just a momentum ofstories and truths that we've
had over a long period of time.
And that story and those truthshave stuff in it, right, that's,
that may be accurate andthere's influence and all those

(01:41:54):
things, right, but it does havethese profound truths in it.
So you take the religious piece,you take the consolation piece,
you take the ayahuasca piece,you take the spiritual,
psychedelic piece, you take allthese things together And they
all have like a, like aconnecting narrative about
honoring your ancestry, aboutconnecting with your, with your
lineage, about, you know, beingat peace and in balance, about

(01:42:18):
right sizing things, aboutdiscovering the trauma, about
sacrifice and and going through.
You know, the story of Christ isa story of sacrifice.
It's like you know, father, whyhave you forsaken me?
is this, you know, trauma, loadright, it's like you have.
You can see it from thatnarrative And like there's these
the story of Cain and Abel isthe story of the victim and the

(01:42:38):
perpetrator, and that story of,and that narrative of the victim
and the perpetrator is anarrative that we have in all of
our society and we all havethat battle within.
So it's like how can you denythe incredible insight that
religion has And some peoplejudge it from that perspective?
So I think there's like thisgrand connecting conversation

(01:43:01):
that is really interesting thatwe're like just now starting to
to explore.

Speaker 2 (01:43:07):
Yeah, and I personally am thrilled to hear
that you've included thereligion piece, because that's
you, you, you.

Speaker 1 (01:43:13):
You came full circle on that, Yeah, yeah that was,
that was tough.

Speaker 2 (01:43:17):
But I honored the fact that you didn't just
blindly accept.
It means so much more to youbecause you went down that path
of exploration And I I reallyrespect that.

Speaker 1 (01:43:28):
Yeah, that was tough, that was.
it's been full circle And youknow, i know people have a lot
of issue with them, but I doJordan Peters and really helped
me with that.
Like I know some people likebut I don't like.
I think there's profoundinsight in what he says.

Speaker 2 (01:43:42):
Take what works and leave the rest.
Yeah, exactly, nobody's perfect.

Speaker 1 (01:43:45):
Nobody's perfect right, but I think there's
there's some really profoundthings that that talks about
everybody's.
All the above.
You know everybody's.
You know D all the above.
You're even the worst people inhistory.
Were all the above Right?
Yeah, and there's.
Everybody has some good, youknow, and some people have

(01:44:07):
profound pain and they create,you know, catastrophic scenarios
.
But you know, if we judge others, it's how judge, how harshly we
judge ourselves.
I read that in the Bible.
Yeah, right, i mean, exactlyLike you talk about.
You know people talk about.
I was having this conversation.
So I was at the beach and I dothese.
You know I do the guidedmeditations on the beach And

(01:44:30):
these guys came up to me and wewere talking about religion And
he was like you know, it says inthe Bible we can judge other
Christians.
I'm like that wasn't saying likea good idea.
Man, judgment is between Godand that person.
We're no one to judge.
We're no one to judge becausejudge entangles, entangles us.
To the person, right, we cansay you know like, and even in

(01:44:52):
society, i think our legalsystem there's a big, bold
statement, but I think our legalsystem is, is incorrect in that
capacity that we have judgesthat that you know, castigate
people.
I think it should be.
You know, like I'm almostthinking that there should be
arbiters that are saying likemore referees that are saying,

(01:45:14):
hey, you know, i've beenassigned to, this is what the
agreements of our society is Andyou broke in that agreement And
if you break that agreementthere's consequences, right?
Because I think judgment hassuch a like, like a moral
implication to it that we, thearbiter, might be a better,
better structure, saying you've,we all agreed as a society that

(01:45:37):
you have to drive 55 miles anhour and you were going 75,
you've broken that agreement Andwe've all agreed that if
somebody breaks that agreement,that these are the consequences
that you do, you take yourlicense away, whatever.
That is right.
I think just judgment has somuch entanglement.
And then forgiveness has thesame thing.
People talk about forgivenesslike we're no one to forgive.
Forgiveness is between theperson and their creator or

(01:46:00):
aliens, or you know the, the,the virtual reality, or you know
the, the simulation, orwhatever.
That is because forgivenessalso entangles us to people,
because first we have to judge.
You said you've wronged me Andthen I have the power to absolve
you of that wrongdoing.
There's so many in our, in ourlanguage, in our culture.

(01:46:21):
There's so many just in likestructures that are very old,
that entangle us to everything.

Speaker 2 (01:46:27):
And I think people confuse having an opinion and
judging, and it's you absolutelyhave to have an opinion.
It's what keeps us safe.
You know, I I think that thisman is dangerous is my opinion
And I'm going to stay away fromthis man.
It becomes judgment when I sayI think this man is dangerous

(01:46:52):
and I think I'm better than heis.
Yeah, Yeah, And I think that'ssomething that people confuse.
It absolutely is critical tohave opinions.
You don't always have to sharethem with people?

Speaker 1 (01:47:04):
Yeah, But opinions have flexibility.
You know, in the perfect worldand a perfect world, opinions
have flexibility.
Judgments are rigid andentangle you to the person.
I think that's such a profound.
That is perfect, but that wasAlberto, alberto saying that.
right, that was the firstfacilitator that we came across
And I was so blown away by thatstatement.

(01:47:24):
There's been two statements inthe constellation mode that have
blown my mind that, like wecannot, we're no one to forgive,
first we're no one to forgive,and the other one is assumption
of responsibility.
What does it mean to assumeresponsibility?
Like, really think of aassumption of responsibility.

(01:47:45):
And I've gone, i've beenaccused of being going overboard
with assumption ofresponsibility.
I think everything's my fault,you know, like in some way It's
like, but something to look into, oh yeah, shit.
But like I think the rightsizing of that is important for
me.
But like, and I thinkresponsibility for me has

(01:48:06):
shifted a little bit from andMichelle talks about this
another dear friend andfacilitator is like,
responsibility is the ability torespond, because trauma keeps
you frozen in the pattern.
It's good, right, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:48:25):
Well, and with children.
You know, boy, i think the verydefinition of maturity is when
people and people maybe a 60year old people when they learn
to assume responsibility for thechoices that they've made Yeah.
Like, your life is anaccumulation of the choices
you've made.
Yeah, period, that's thatdefines maturity.

Speaker 1 (01:48:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:48:49):
I mean, stuff happens to us, of course, that we have
no control over, but how do wechoose to respond to what's
happened to us?

Speaker 1 (01:48:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:48:57):
That's what we have control over.

Speaker 1 (01:48:59):
Yeah, so there's a big thing that I want to talk to
you about.
Tell me about the last leg ofyour career as a diplomat.
What was that like?
So, as I mentioned, I wastalking about victims and
perpetrators.

Speaker 2 (01:49:13):
Yes, I was assigned to a Warsaw Poland I.
This was I.
You have mandatory retirementwhen you turn 65 and I turned 65
.
I was supposed to have leftWarsaw in March of 2022.
And they extended meadministratively, so I ended up.

(01:49:36):
My last date in Warsaw was July30th And on February 24th, and
I had my plan.
I had all the places in Polandthat we hadn't yet visited that
we were going to visit, and Iwas going to.
You know, just really enjoythis last chapter.

Speaker 1 (01:49:58):
So were you thinking like oh you know, i'm at the
last leg, i'm, you know, shorton retirement, i'm just going to
coast and this thing?

Speaker 2 (01:50:05):
No, i never thought that, not for a minute Have you
met me?
But I knew what it was going tolook like.
I knew in my mind what it wasgoing to look like.
And then February 24th happened, and I remember sitting on the
couch in my living room and Iwas crying because I never

(01:50:28):
thought that I would see a warnext door in my lifetime never
And saying to God because I wastired.
I was tired.
I'm a really hard worker and Iwas tired and I worked really,
really hard in Poland And I wasready to pull up roots and come
back and reconnect with myfamily, my grandkids, my friends

(01:50:51):
.
And so February 24th takesplace.
I'm on the couch realizingwhat's happening, and I start
crying.

Speaker 1 (01:51:00):
So for people that don't have full context, what
happened February 24th?

Speaker 2 (01:51:05):
The invasion, russia invaded Ukraine once again, and
so I'm crying and I'm talking toGod and I'm saying I, god, i
don't think that I can do this,because I knew once it started.
I knew because I've beenthrough traumatic scenarios

(01:51:29):
happening before in Venezuelawith flooding.
I've lived, i was in Mexicowhen there was a massive
earthquake.
I know what happens in thesescenarios And I've been in the
embassy structure for 24 years,so I knew immediately what was
going to happen within what'scalled the country team of the

(01:51:49):
embassy, which is the ambassadorat the helm.
The ambassador is the directconnection to the president of
the United States.
He speaks for the president ofthe United States.
I knew that everyone on thatcountry team was going to have
their responsibility.
So the military attache prettyobvious, what they're going to
be doing, the public affairspeople, pretty obviously, what

(01:52:10):
they're going to be doing withmessaging and the US position.
So we all knew what was goingto take place And I knew what
our agency, the small team thatI led, we were going to be
responsible for connectingcompanies and people who wanted
to make donations ofhumanitarian aid, whether it was

(01:52:31):
to the refugees coming intoPoland or directly to Ukraine.
I knew instantly that that wasgoing to be our role.
What even ever gone into theembassy for our first big sit
down?
you guys are going to be doingthis.
I'll do this.
I knew it.

Speaker 1 (01:52:47):
So just in context, why is Poland positionally?
what is Poland in thatstrategic kind of play, in that
theater?
What is Poland?

Speaker 2 (01:52:59):
So if you look at a map and I highly encourage you
all to do that look at the mapand look at where Poland sits
geographically.
Poland is a member of the NATO.
They are one of our strongestallies in the world, and this
was true even before Russiainvaded Ukraine.

(01:53:21):
So I'll get into that in alittle bit.
But so I'm sitting on the couchwith the realization of what is
about to take place And I'mcrying and I'm talking to God
And I'm saying God, i don'tthink I can do this.
And God's response was itwasn't a question.

(01:53:50):
Everything in my life led me tobe in that position in time to
be doing exactly what I wasdoing.
And I'm not saying that I wasirreplaceable.
I'm not saying that all of thisincredible stuff would have
happened if I hadn't been inthat position, but I knew that I

(01:54:14):
was going to be facilitatingsome things, and I needed to put
on my big girl pants and stepinto that leadership role and
get my team to refocuseverything that they've been
doing some of them for 30 years,30 plus years and learn how to

(01:54:40):
ensure that the much neededsupplies and donations got to
their intended destination.
And we did that every singleday for weeks on end.

Speaker 1 (01:54:57):
So the first wave was holy crap, this just happened.
And the whole world's responseis how can we help?
And there wasn't infrastructure, there wasn't country team,
there wasn't the military, therewasn't the UN, there was no one
.

Speaker 2 (01:55:16):
So there were certainly yes, parts of that are
true.
There were certain military,certainly military.
The military infrastructure wasincredible.

Speaker 1 (01:55:25):
But at the beginning it was like who do we call?

Speaker 2 (01:55:28):
I thought, when there was natural disaster or war
broke out, i thought that therewas just going to be this huge
team of people that showed upfrom all these international
relief organizations, Butcertainly there were some people
on the ground that playedabsolutely critical rules that

(01:55:50):
saved many, many, many, manylives.
But it takes time to mobilizethe Red Cross at the United
States, All of theseorganizations, global
organizations.
It takes time.
What resource you don't want tojust have thousands of people

(01:56:10):
show up with.
And I'll tell you that therewas one instance early on of a
medical donation that a companysent just an incredible,
incredible, generous gift of $3million of much needed medicine.

(01:56:31):
There was no label on it, Itwas put on a plane that arrived.
It went away.
It needed to be refrigerated,it went away.
So that was new information tome, because the team we're like
everybody's looking around goingwell, who's going to do this?

(01:56:52):
And the Ukrainian embassy inPoland was a skeletal staff.
I mean, they had no idea.
So it was the honor of alifetime to be in that role And
I could talk about this for along time, but I won't To see.

(01:57:16):
I think the thing that touchedme the most out of all the
things that I saw was the waythat the Polish people opened
their doors, their hearts, theirhomes to 4 million Ukrainian
women and children, because 95%of the women streaming across
the border, of the peoplestreaming across the border,
were women and children, becausefrom 16 to 60, men weren't

(01:57:40):
allowed because they needed themto fight the war.
And if you're interested,poland's history is just
absolutely fascinating Thehistory between Ukraine and
Poland.
There was bad blood And itdisappeared Overnight.
It disappeared And certainlyrelief shelters were set up, but

(01:58:02):
what Poles did was invitepeople into their home,
strangers, for weeks on end.
I didn't know anybody thatwasn't in some way helping the
Ukrainian refugees.
I didn't know a single person,whether they had them living
with them, whether they weresponsoring them to live in a
hotel down the street, whetherthey were doing food drives or

(01:58:24):
clothing whatever.
People just changed overnightAnd Warsaw, the city that I
lived in, you, within days, allof a sudden, you would see these
people who kind of look likePoles, but they were Ukrainian
women and children and theywould be carrying their
suitcases behind them And youcould see from the time they

(01:58:49):
first arrived until they hadstarted becoming assimilated
into the culture.
You would see these people,these women and the children,
who were just shell-shockedbecause what they saw and, as
the war grew on, what they livedwas just undescribable.

(01:59:11):
It was just undescribable inthis day and age that this is
taking place And it's takingplace right next to Poland.
And in the early stages itwould read the news and there
would be some oh this isn'treally, and why is the?
you and I'm like you have noidea what you're talking about.
Read other news sources,because the news that you're

(01:59:33):
reading could not.
I've seen it with my own eyes.
This is the truth, and I was so.
I mean, the outpouring ofgenerosity from companies all
over the world was incredible,but the outpouring from US
companies and US individuals wasjust it leaves me speechless.

(01:59:54):
What people were willing to do,it's just.
I saw the face of evil.
I was once at a conference inRomania and I saw the president
of Russia walk down the hall andnow I know what oozed from him
is trauma.
What I thought at the time itwas evil.
I now know it was trauma AndI've also seen the goodness of

(02:00:21):
people.
I believe that people are good.
They are inherently good.
Some of them have had a lot oftrauma layered on top of that
goodness.
But God created us and we aregood.
We are inherently good people.

Speaker 1 (02:00:38):
Isn't there a story that I don't know if it's true,
obviously you know he's an agentof, you know of, of he's a
product of his environment,obviously.
But you and I talked about thisduring this time that you know
there's a story that he tellsthat the president tells that
his you know that he was walking, that his father was on leave

(02:01:02):
or something from the war theWorld War II, then Russia got,
was just through 25 millionRussians at the Nazis, basically
And that he saw a pair of shoesand then he pulls his mother
you know, it was a bear up, itwas a pile of bodies.
And he sees this pair of shoesthat he recognizes and pulls his

(02:01:26):
mother's body from a pile ofbodies.
Then she's still alive.
He realizes that she's stillalive And he nurses her back to
life And then that's from what Idon't know if he'd already been
born or he had not been born.
But and some people say it'snot true- right.

Speaker 2 (02:01:45):
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1 (02:01:46):
Some people say it's not true and that's okay, you
know, it's okay, whatever, likethat's fine, right, but the
narrative exists And I think inthat story there's a profound
truth and there's profoundinsight in that story is that,
out of the rubble of pile ofbodies, that, if you translate
that and I'm not trying to, youknow, psychologically, you know,

(02:02:07):
cross examine this guy, but ifyou look at that story and if
that story resonates and that ifthat's a narrative, maybe
that's a narrative and his inhis orbit, it really talks about
the trauma of disaster, of whatthat was, really puts things

(02:02:27):
into context and saying, ifyou're willing to nurse out of
the rubbles of destruction yourmother, the motherland, your
country, whatever that is,you're willing to do whatever it
takes, including becoming aperpetrator in somebody else's
story.
So it's like I think there'sthese narratives that really put

(02:02:49):
into context who we are and canreally provide insight into the
power of what stories andpatterns are in our family or in
our systems and our largersystems, and how we may be the
victim in our story but then theperpetrator in somebody else's.

Speaker 2 (02:03:09):
Wow, Yeah, isn't that a profound truth that's
difficult for many people toaccept?
We are both.

Speaker 1 (02:03:17):
We are both.
Yeah.
Well, I think we're going toleave it right there.

Speaker 2 (02:03:28):
I can I just have to take a moment I'm going to try
really hard not to cry Just tellyou how incredibly proud I am
of you And, wow, to see thehealing that has taken place in
you and your sister and yourspouses and your families and
your orbit, the people who, somany people that surround you.

(02:03:48):
It is profoundly moving Andjust as I knew when I was
sitting at that couch thateverything in my life had
brought me professionallyspeaking, had brought me to that
place in time, everything in mylife, personally speaking, has
brought me to this place in timeto be your mother and see the

(02:04:13):
work that you and your sisterhave done, the profound ways
that you are healing yourselfand healing the world.
I couldn't be more proud of you, thank you too,

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The Path of Resilience and Growth: Cindy Biggs Discusses Life's Unexpected Turns and Spiritual Healing

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