Today, we are joined by forensic psychologist and Intentionally Disturbing host, Dr. Leslie Dobson, to discuss Sherri Papini's kidnapping, updates with Hannah Kobayashi, a woman indicted for multiple fake pregnancies, and deceptive mental health information in popular TikTok videos.
Follow Dr. Dobson- IG (@drlesliedobson) // TikTok (@drlesliedobson) // YouTube (@drlesliedobson) // Website - drlesliedobson.com
🎟️ Atlanta Meet & Greet - Click here
Want to submit your shocking story? Email stories@motherknowsdeath.com
Support The Show:
🖤 Sponsors
🔬 Buy Nicole's Book
🥼 Merch
Follow:
🔪 Nicole
🪩 Maria
📱 TikTok
More Info:
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Mother Knows Death starring Nicole and Jemmy and Maria qk.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hi. Everyone, welcome The Mother Knows Death. Today. We have
some great stories we will be discussing with a special guest.
You may have heard of doctor Leslie Dobson, who is
a clinical and forensic psychologist with over twenty years of
experience in severe mental illness, violence, and sexual offenses. She's
been a guest on Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, one
(00:43):
of our faves. She's also author of the book to
Frank Clens and she hosts the Intentionally Disturbing podcast, but
she's probably best known for her viral social media videos. Hi,
doctor Leslie, Welcome The Mother Knows Death.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Hi, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
We're so excited to do this episode with you. We
had a couple stories in the news recently about people
who just faked their kidnapping and things like that, and
we've been saving it aside for you. So you want
to get into the first story.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Yeah, I've been dying to talk about this Sherry Peppini
docu series that came out a couple of weeks ago,
because we've covered the case a lot, and when you
were coming on, I was like, we have to have
to have to talk to doctor Leslie about this. So
for our listeners that aren't familiar with this story, this
happened back in twenty sixteen where this wife and mother
mysteriously vanished. One morning, her husband got a call from
(01:36):
the daycare that the kids never got picked up. When
he got home, she wasn't there. She was missing for
all this time. Her family was pleading on the news
for her to come back or where was she. Nobody
knew what happened. They thought she was abducted. So all
of a sudden, on Thanksgiving, she returns home, her hair'spin chopped,
she has this brand on her back. She claimed that
two Hispanic women had kidnapped her. It ended up turning
(01:59):
out that she was staying with an ex boyfriend at
this time, and she got arrested for faking her own kidnapping.
So now this docuseries has come out where she is
a new side of the story, which I'm gonna argue
is even worse than the original story. I don't know
what do you guys think about this? Like in the docuseries,
she was giving the producers a new story, and by
(02:21):
the end of the four episodes, I feel like they
were calling her out and having even more inconsistencies. And
I realized by the end of it that the only
people that claim she was telling the truth were people
she was paying, meaning her therapist and her lawyers.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Can therapists be paid off like that? I don't, that's
kind of that sounds really unethical.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
There are a lot of stupid therapists, I don't, like,
you know, they can be manipulated. She she comes off
to me like she has some personality disorders, and so
I would imagine, you know, she takes pride in being
referred to as a master manipulator. But yet she has
(03:05):
this meekness to her and this like this youthfulness, and
it reminds me of so many notorious women who were
capable of doing horrible things, but they would kind of
draw you in with this almost like this delicateness. Yes,
(03:26):
and it was like a mask for the maliciousness that
they were capable of. No, I don't. I don't know
what she was doing for twenty two days, but I
believe her boyfriend.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Yeah, it's kind of crazy because our listeners are not
going to believe this. But I've never seen the movie
Gone Girl. I just read the book last week and
I was like laughing to myself at how she seriously,
three years after this book and movie came out, took
every detail from this novel and implemented it in real life.
I mean, she just lost her job, just like the
(04:00):
main character and Gon girl lost her job. She's sitting
around the house with a rocky marriage. She's having this affair.
She meets up with this ex boyfriend who she basically,
in my opinion, sets up to has committed this crime
because she wanted to run away and then in the
middle of it decided she made a huge mistake and returned.
It's exactly the plot of the book.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
It's interesting to me because it's hard to differentiate delusion
from you a purposeful lie. And that's where I would
do so many psychological assessments on her, and oh, I
would just have a field day with her. But you know,
there was a movie that came out with I think
was Channing Tatum and he was drugging people and they
(04:44):
were Blink Twice. Is that the movie? Yeah? Okay, so
so many people have referenced Blink Twice as they as
what they experienced from Seawan Colmbs and they are referencing
it to the tea. And so there are three people
I can think of that have quite a big following
(05:06):
now and have reached out to me, and I've spoken
to them. They are straight ap delusional or they are lying,
and it is because of the similarities and the references
to the movie and the linear fashion of how the
movie played out, and that is how they are saying
their experience was, they weren't trafficked, they never met the
(05:26):
guy they did. These stories aren't true. And so when
it comes to Peppine is a Peppinie, Yes, Pepini, It's
just it's it's too unbelievable to be believable. She's consistently inconsistent,
and so you look for that in psychology, you look
(05:46):
for like the linearity of the story over time and
the elements and the components. If it smells fishy, it's
a fish.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
So wait, so this is for let's go back, because
I'm not sure I understood what you said about the
the p Didty situation, because I haven't heard this yet.
So you're saying that the witnesses that are describing their
stories are describing stories that are similar to a movie
and may not be what they actually experienced.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Not the witnesses in trial.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Okay, so other people though, yes, other other.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
People who have substantial followings and have reached out to
me because they want to be on my podcast or
you know, they want me to advocate for them. And
you know, once I I'm never going to have a
mentally ill, severely mentally ill person on my podcast. I'm
not going to take advantage of that state of mind.
(06:45):
I don't agree with all of the interviews soft White
Underbelly does because he will go out at three am
to Compton offer someone fifty bucks they're on crack, and
he'll interview them. And I think that that's a really
poor use of our platforms. And so people reach out
and I could easily interview someone who says they were
(07:05):
trafficked by Diddy and fully be aware that they're delusional
because they are literally stating seen by seeing the movie
Blink twice. But I just I don't. Ethically, it's just
so wrong to me. So No, the people on the
stand testifying, I truly believe them, and I think that
when when the defense is going at their credibility, I
(07:29):
think that's the only way they they can really fight back.
In this case. But you can't really go against someone's
credibility when they're high as a fucking kite all day
and all night on a million substances as well. So
their lack of consistent memory on the stand in trial
right now, I do not think is a lack of
(07:54):
credibility or truce. I think it's like a substance induced
crazy nightmare they lived.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
It's interesting that you're saying that because I was thinking,
like this Sherry Peppini person has done interviews and it's
like these people, is it that they're lying and they're
just good at lying or do they really believe their stories?
That's like, I guess that's something that you would do
is figure that out.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Yeah, we have a lot of psychological assessments that can
figure that out that look for delusional disorder, paranoia, a
desire to fake good, you want to look more sick
than you are. You know, we can look at all
of that, and we look at that through a variety
of tests that are very different and they're normed on
samples of people just like you and me. So you
(08:41):
look for similar people, same ethnicity, same age, same gender,
and you compare answers and the test will be like, WHOA,
this is like super extreme for somebody like this, this
doesn't make sense and it lines up everything. And then
we have tons of different tests and then I look
at each test and I compare all the results. It's
really really fucking tedious. Sherry is too inconsistent. These stories
(09:09):
are too bizarre and ever changing for me to think
that it would be delusional. It seems a little more volitional,
like she's enjoying the same and the clout from it.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Yeah, I would agree, because you know, obviously everybody has
a right to tell their side of the story. But
they're sitting there criticizing her ex husband for doing the
Hulu documentary about her when she's doing this other documentary
making accusations about him stealing her children away, when I
don't really think it's that far fetched that you know,
she might not have custody after going to prison, So
(09:47):
I think it's I think it's kind of outrageous to
sit there and say that he stole her kids away.
And I mean, I'm not saying he's a perfect guy either.
Clearly their marriage wasn't great. His sister was even in
the docuseries. You know, on Cherry side for most of it,
which I thought was strange. But you know, you did
go to prison, and you did admit that you lied,
(10:07):
and your story continues to be inconsistent. So what I
thought was most pivotal part of the documentary not pivotal,
but a great part of the documentary was it ended
with her asking the production team do you think this
is going to be better or worse for me? And
I would say, as somebody that's followed this case for
almost ten years, I think it's way worse for her.
(10:28):
She seems even more guilty of my opinion.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
I can totally see her branding herself like it's just
I can see her coming up with what she thought
was like this epic story and plan didn't work out, Okay,
go to prison. Oh I've got another one for you.
Here's my news to break and plan. Oh we've got
thirsty producers who need airtime. Okay, they're willing to give
(10:54):
me what fifteen hundred bucks to do? Okay? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Because how is she making money now out of prison?
And exactly like I think she thought she was going
to be this next Gone girl. But the difference between
her and the main character in that book is she
does not have the same intelligence level. And we have
to remember that's a fictionalized book, so she clearly didn't
line everything up as perfectly as she thought she was
going to.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
And intelligence is so interesting, right because it's based on
so many different facets of the mind. So she could
be very very emotionally manipulative and intelligent in that way,
but lack of intelligence with like forethought and future oriented thinking.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Yeah, that's what I was thinking too, Like I'm just like, okay,
I get your plan, but like, what did you think
was going to happen next? There's not like any plan
after week one or something of like how are people
going to look at this and take this and like
what's going to happen next of it? It's really like
it's kind of weird, honestly. Remember that was a girl,
(12:01):
maybe it was like a year or two ago, a
young woman named Carly Russell who did the same thing.
She said that she got She pulled over to the
side of the road because she saw this toddler walking
on the side of the road in a diaper, and
then she she claims she was kidnapped, and then she
ended up at her parents' house like two days later
and it. Obviously the whole story didn't check out. You
(12:23):
don't think from a cops perspective that they're gonna look
into this a little bit and then like what was
the point of that? Like what is going through these
people's minds? It's so weird.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
I mean, I don't know if they couldn't get a
job at Starbucks, people are weird. As a therapist that
I like, I'm always just coming to the conclusion that
people are really weird. If you find good people and
you have a circle of like three friends, that's super amazing. Yeah,
(12:56):
because people have darkness inside them. People have secrets, and
even your closest friend you don't know her dirt. And
being a therapist, I get to find out. But also
being a forensic psychologist, I get to do these psychological
assessments and I get to manipulate these psychopathic people in
(13:18):
order for them to show me higher levels of their psychopathy.
So there's this manipulation present where I get like some
good tea that other people don't get.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
I know, it's so it's so juicy, like I want
to hear. I know you can't talk about patients, but
can are you allowed to like tell general stories? As
long as you don't give away who it is, right
like why why not?
Speaker 1 (13:45):
And a lot of a lot of court cases are
are public, so we all you see my name listed
as the expert or I'm my testimonies out there. But
I've worked with, you know, thousands of the most mentally ill,
severely violent, mostly men. I have to say I don't
have like a huge I don't have a lot of
(14:06):
experience with women because the facilities were largely men, and
I think women are just a little better at getting
away with their crimes. So but yeah, I've I know
where a lot of bodies are buried, you know. I
these men would tell me much more than they were
in for and depending on my role, I could either
(14:29):
report it or I could not. So as a therapist,
you don't unless you're going to kill someone, I can't
tell people that you've killed someone. So there's that the
texture thing. But in forensic psychology, if I'm an expert,
then I would add that to the report. Lawyers just
read it and be like, oh wait, we said there's
thirteen people under the spridge.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Oh my god, that's so interesting, you know what.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Another question that I had is like, we're talking about
this woman's husband, and there's always obvious people have husband's family, Like,
is there a certain type of person that's attracted to
a person like this, because maybe the person that does
these types of things knows that they're manipulative and they
look for a weak or lenk almost because it sometimes
(15:16):
it seems like the family or the husband it happened
with it. What was that woman's name, Susan with the
car with the kids back in the day. Why can't
I think of what her name is right now? You know,
the one that faked that she got carjacked and the
car went into the water with the kids still in
the car, and she she said that she was kidnapped, and.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
I vaguely remember it.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Yeah, well it was like her husband believed her at first.
Like what is it about these family members that are
they're completely just have no idea that their loved one
is is capable of coming up with a lie like this,
Like they believe what they're doing.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
People are ignorant and simple, And you know, I think
the real truth is that we can barely manage our
own lives and to be able to shift our paradigm
and change our perspective of a human being so close
to us. It's cognitively difficult. It takes energy, it takes time,
(16:20):
it takes commitment to shift that mindset. And you know,
who knows if that's happening in the Seawan Colmbs trial
with his kids sitting there watching and talking about Dad
ejaculate or no, he wasn't ejaculating, playing with the jackular.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
That's weird that the children are there and I don't
care what age they are. It's freaking weird.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Yeah, I think it is weird. Are are like, Are
they like, oh we knew about this? Are they going
to shift their paradigm? Do they love Dad less? Because
they should, But it's it takes a while for people
to not be bamboozled, I guess, and it happens in
good ways and bad ways. But also think that you
(17:02):
know narcissistic men, So people with narcissistic personality disorder often
find relationships with women who have borderline personality disorder. And
these women who are faking cases all have this flare
for borderline personality disorder. Now the narcissist sees it as
someone they can easily control, right, and the borderline is
(17:26):
the relationship begins with the borderline being very flattering, right,
they're all in, they're very devoted because a borderline doesn't
have an identity, so they're going to be whatever the
narcissist wants until they're not until they start to fall
apart and become fragmented again, which is their natural state.
Then the narcissists can't handle that person. The borderline starts
(17:48):
to freak out, and then again, you know, disappears for
twenty two and this stamps her back with something. Is
this not diagnosing, just assuming no.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
I understand. I was curious if this is a similar
personality to people who like the Munchausens by proxy or
just Munchausenes in general. We had a story of a
woman last week who faked having sickle cell anemia, and
I know a lot of people do these things because
they think they could get money from it, and I'm
not sure if it's an attention thing all the time.
(18:21):
But also you have stories of people doing this on
their kids. And then we had another story this week
about a woman who faked a pregnancy. It's just very
like it seems like it's all along the same lines
of just very weird things for people to make up
because they could easily be proven wrong.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, I think, well there's a cash grab, right, I
think especially during this well, with this economy, people are terrified,
and they're people are getting more mentally ill because they're
freaking the fuck out, which is understandable, and they're looking
for simple ways to get attention, notoriety, and to get money.
(19:00):
But again they're not they're not thinking it through Munchausen's.
Munchausen's is a very severe disorder and it shows itself
over many, many, many years. So if there isn't a
history of it, I would assume the person is more
borderline or there's a different diagnosis. But with Munchausen's you're
(19:24):
going to see illnesses for a long long time. And
of course we have the most severe case that I
think we've really had televised was oh Gypsy Rose, Yeah right,
and how many years did that go on? That was
her entire life, that her mother had Munchausen's by proxy.
Oh yeah. So if it's just one of these one
(19:45):
off instances, then I would definitely look towards more of
a borderline, psychopathic, manipulative, despontaneous attempt at a money grab.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
Well, I'm curious your thoughts on this other case we
have about Hannah Kabayah. She so we had talked about
her last year. She had flown from Hawaii to lax
She was supposed to take a connecting flight to New York.
She never got on that flight. Her family ended up
declaring her missing, and then her father went to la
to look for her, ended up dying by suicide, only
for her to turn up in Mexico a couple weeks later.
(20:19):
So I think this case is really interesting because she's
not this article saying she's speaking out for the first time,
and she's not really saying much. But it seems like
she just wanted to kind of disappear for a little
bit and didn't realize how damaging it was going to
be to her entire family.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Right, that her dad was gonna off himself.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Yeah, like that's nuts, right, But I understand that as
a parent, Like if my kid was missing, like I
can't even fathom what that would feel like, even if
it was you, Maria, an older kid like it it
would be like the grossest feeling ever I can't imagine.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Yeah, but I it's all bizarre to me because I
would still I would look, I would keep looking right. Yea,
there was no there were no remains found, there was
no proof of death or anything. So it makes me think,
you know, why did he kill himself so quickly? Is
there something he didn't want seen? Was he feeling guilty?
(21:18):
Did he think that he had led to her running away?
Why did she There's so many questions about, well, why
this was so severe in so many ways and drastic?
Speaker 3 (21:29):
Yeah, because her family seeming to say that she was
in some sort of danger, and it's come out that
her and her father had an estranged relationship, So if
they were truly estranged, it is bizarre he would take
such a dramatic step and was he involved in that danger?
Why are they not rushing to clear it up? I mean,
I guess it's kind of none of our business, but
when it reaches the public and people are searching for her,
(21:52):
then it is kind of their responsibility to let us know.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Yeah, I don't with her case, I don't immediately place
blame on her. I'm I'm my lead with curiosity because
of how quickly her father did that. Yeah, so I
think we're I think we're missing a lot and I
would imagine, I would imagine we may never know because
(22:18):
it's her story to tell, you know.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Yeah, And I want to circle back to another story
we have about this fake pregnancy scandal with this Bachelor star.
So I don't know how familiar you are with this case.
I've been following it for over a year, but it's
just been escalating like crazy. So I know, Mom, you're
like not super familiar with because you're not the biggest Bachelor.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
I just don't.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Like she told me about, oh there's this thing that
and I was like, yeah, people have been faking pregnancy
since the beginning of time, like whatever, Like I don't
I think it's it's a little weird. It's weird for sure,
but like I'm just kind of like, to me, I
look at it like, Okay, he's he has money and
he's somebody and she was trying to get money off
of Like That's how I.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Look at it.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
So to give the listeners some background, this guy Clayton
Ecker that was on The Bachelor. He after it was
on The Bachelor started working in real estate. This woman,
Laura Michelle Owens, reached out to him to help with
some real estate. He fully admits that the day they
met up that they hooked up and only had oral sex,
so he was really surprised when eleven days later she
said she was pregnant. So first it started with that
(23:23):
because you know, of course they're the only two people
in the room, he said. She said, we don't really
know what went on, but he is this entire time
maintained they never had vaginal sex at all. So of
course this starts spiraling, and then it starts coming out that,
you know, she was trying to pursue a relationship. He
didn't really want anything to do with that. The story
starts escalating. She says she's pregnant with twins. She's sending
(23:45):
him ultrasounds, she's sending him medical records, she's taking him
to court over custody, wearing a fake pregnant belly in
the court meetings.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Yeah, that's that's weird.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
That's what I'm talking about, Like she's taking it to
the extreme, and then he ends up finding out she's
done it to a couple other guys and now she's
been federally indicted for it.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
It's just nut and she has like a million phone numbers.
He's had to block her. She's full on stocking him.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
Yeah, over five hundred texts and emails from various different accounts.
I mean, we talk about cases where you know, people
have sex and men refuse to admit that the result
of sex could be pregnancy. But if they really didn't
have sex, if they really didn't have sex, and you know,
(24:31):
he's surprised by this in general, and she has a
history of it. I just think it's really bizarre to
take the extra steps. First you're lying, which is just
really weird, and then you're taking the steps to photoshop
fake documents. You're buying a fake belly on Amazon and
wearing it in court meetings. I mean, how do you
think you're getting away with this? She just said, Oh,
(24:51):
I had a miscarriage. No big deal, It's not how
that works. People have to look into everything.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Well, what would really be the point of there being
a fake pregnant belly for sale anyway? Like why will
for movies and stuff? Okay, well that should be like
a movie prop website. Why can you just buy that
on Amazon? That's seriously, like, that's no good's gonna come
with that.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
Well, when I worked on the movie, we had ordered
various pregnant bellies in different skin tones, and textures to
see which one was the most realistic. So I imagine
this woman doing them too for her own personal I'm
assuming she was doing it for financial gain or I
don't know, it's just it's such a I mean, she.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
She seems ill though, I mean, like, how rich is
this guy? What do you get? Like thirty grands?
Speaker 3 (25:37):
Like the low level, That's what I'm saying, Like, well,
I don't think he's that rich if he had to
go into real estate after being on reality television. And
she's the daughter of a famous radio host, so you
want to assume she comes from some wealthy situation. I
don't know if this is just some sick mind games
she likes playing on guys that reject her, or well.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
You know, it's I would say, like a auto manic
delusional disorder, which is stalking. Right. It's a love based,
sex based, infatuation based obsession with somebody, and you can't
they don't know that it's not reality, and there does
come a point where it switches to other people and
(26:20):
other objects, and then oftentimes it switches back, which is scary.
But if they're not stalking you, they're stocking someone else,
so at least you can be relieved that they're stalking
someone else. So if she can move on, he would
probably feel a lot better.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
Oh yeah, I mean there's an entire website devoted to
victims of her. There's multiple guys on there with their
whole stories of which he put them through. And he
was very gleeful when the indictment came through because he
had been living in this absolute hell for I guess
two years now this has been going on.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
It's kind of like Baby Reindeer ish, like, yes, it does.
It gives that vibe of you know, he gave just enough.
He did engage with her, and then that when somebody
is mentally compromised, it doesn't take much for them to
misread signals and cues. And I would imagine he replied
to her at the beginning, you know, he kind of
(27:12):
like he didn't probably set a really firm boundary. He
was probably trying to be kind. It continued, and then
he was like, whoa, my god, this is getting fucking insane.
Just kind of like how Baby Reindeer played out, and
that's how a lot of delusions and stocking scenarios play out.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
It is so scary to think you're just having a
casual hook up with somebody one time, and then it
just ends up following you for the next couple of
years of your life.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
And maybe forever. Right, I mean, she could just continue
to try and find ways unless she's imprisoned. Now.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Thing is so scary, Oh my god. Yeah, Like when
you hear some of the stories about it, it's just
like there was this I think it was on Nancy
Grace was talking about it actually, like an actress that
was having a stalker and stuff and like having your
children involved and just being scared. And I can't even
imagine that. It's like, what causes is it the same
(28:11):
thing you were just talking about, That's what causes people
to do that?
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Yeah, I think they you know, they're not in the
right mindset. They the delusions are false beliefs, but these
people really believe them. We see them as false. These
people believe them to be true. They misconstrue signs or
they're hallucinating signs. So we would look towards something like
schizophrenia where you're having hallucinations visual you know, you think
(28:38):
he's coming to visit you, you know, like auditory hallucinations
where maybe a lot of the times they think they're
getting phone calls from the individual, and then I'll ask
to see the client's phone and there's no phone calls
coming in, and then the delusional belief then plays off
of that, well, you know, I just saw him, he
(28:59):
just called. He must want me to go to his house.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Yeah, no, it's really interesting. So there's so yeah. So
it's almost like, I mean, sometimes you want to just
like make fun of these people and be like, oh,
that chicks, that chicks the psycho. Like, you know, we've
all had a friend that's that had that that. It's
usually it's sometimes a guy, but it's usually a woman
that's like, you know and like you. But then I
(29:25):
feel bad because if they're really like they really think
it's happening, that's kind of scary for them too.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
They think it's happening. I feel bad for a lot
of female celebrities who have had very very severe stocking
cases and what one it's not very recent, but it
was Natalie Portman, and I think the guy thought he
was in the matrix and he like came to her
house so many times, like dressed like Keanu Reeves, and
(29:55):
he had like semi automatic weapons and he took out
her security. I mean, she was utterly terrified. There's like
her nine to one one calls were out there during
the case, and like he was wanting to either take
her life because of some delusional beliefs that it would
free both of them. But I mean he was. He
(30:15):
got armed and ready and this went on for years.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
Yeah, I mean we remember when we covered the doctor
Amy Harwick case. She had been in this really bad
relationship years before. She hadn't seen the ex boyfriend in
a really long time, ran into him randomly at some convention,
and then a week later he murdered her. It just
like set his mind off, and he stalked her, hid
(30:40):
in her house, was lying in wait, and it was horrible.
So it is crazy how these really little encounters can
just trip somebody up and cause them to just go
over the deep ed.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Yeah. When I was driving to my office this morning,
I needed to make a right turn, and I knew
I wasn't gonna make a right time and get past
a car. I had to wait for the light to
turn green in the car to move forward. The person
behind me didn't grasp that. It's it's like eight in
the morning and she's blaring her horn honking at me,
and I'm like, I carry a gun everywhere I go, Like,
(31:16):
you do this to the wrong person, and you don't
know how much pain, how much misery, how much psychosis
this person has. They will justify just turning around and
shooting you in the fucking head. And it's you cannot
never overestimate, I'm sorry, underestimate people's capacity to be triggered
(31:36):
by your behavior. They put the blame on you. They're
not grounded in reality. And at the end of the day,
your life is threatened and your family's life is threatened.
Like we really have to tread lightly right now, especially
with this administration, especially with just how much divisiveness and
contention there is in America and all over the world.
(32:00):
People are carrying this around with them all the time,
and they're more easily triggered. I have more works than
I've ever had before.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Yeah, I think, And I mean, do you think that
that it's got I mean, you're not really that old,
so it's not not let's say, well that's what I'm saying,
Like you're you're younger than me, but you're still like
around my age. But I'm saying, like you haven't been
practicing that long, I should say that there's been a transition.
(32:29):
I'd like to talk to older uh psychiatrists and psychologists
who who have seen the transition before social media versus
after and then even I mean even when Maria was
a teenager, there was Facebook, I guess.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
Right, Ray, I mean I didn't really have Facebook though
until I was like a sophomore or junior in high school. Yeah,
it was just getting it just popular.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
It was just different until because Instagram was even a
certain way, and it started really with like Snapchat problem,
I would say, like with the videos, and then Instagram
started copying all those ideas off of TikTok and Snapchat.
But like the introduction of those other apps I feel
like is when shit started getting really weird. Yeah, and
(33:15):
it's like, so you wouldn't have really, I mean, you've
been practicing really since then. So it's like hard to
see if there's been like a significant transition for older therapists,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Yeah, it would be really interesting to ask a bunch
of them their perspective. And you know, my perspective is
also biased because people can have cell phones in prison,
so a lot of my well, they could that was
just a problem. But they they didn't have access to
(33:49):
the outside world, and so a lot of my training
was not people manipulated by media.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Yeah, that's it. That is interesting. This episode is brought
to you by the Gross Room. Guys, the Gross Room
is on sale for only twenty dollars for the whole
entire year. And we don't do this often, but let
me tell you what you're going to get. I just
(34:18):
look today. We have over three thousand posts in the
Gross Room that date back to twenty nineteen. So if
you're not a member yet, you will have like months
to look through all of this stuff. There's thousands of
pictures videos that go along with all these posts. And
this week our high profile death dissection was on Francis
Glassner Lee. Right, do you want to talk about that
(34:40):
one a little bit.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
Yeah, So Francis Glessner Lee. She is considered the mother
of forensic science. She is this bad ass older woman
that started making these crime scene doll houses to better
educate homicide detectives and death investigators on how to just
really sit there and observe a scene. So in this dissection,
we break down all of her dollhouses, her history, her
(35:02):
contributions to forensics. She is truly the coolest lady.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Of all time.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Yeah, really like way ahead of her time. So check
all that out and more at the Grosser Room.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
Yeah, head over to the grossroom dot com to sign up.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
All right, So there was recently an article out about
this is going on just a totally different topic about
mental health and social media. So it's interesting because that's
kind of your thing. Which it's really interesting that they
did this particular study. So they looked at one hundred
(35:36):
from on TikTok, the top hundred videos that had hashtag
mental health tips, and they got a bunch of psychiatrists
and psychologists to look at these videos and say, hey,
are these accurate or what kind of information are people
putting out? And they found that fifty two of the
hundred videos were actually bad and giving terrible advice. So
(36:01):
I'm just curious what you think about that. Like, my
particular stance on it is that just because a video
has a lot of views doesn't necessarily mean that people
are taking the advice of it. It's just being said
someone had a catchy hook and it got shared and
that could just be it. But also I guess in theory.
So many people are seeing it so they could take
(36:23):
the advice seriously.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
It's terrifying. But no, I do get people coming in
my office and just being like, I've been on TikTok
for a while. I think I have ADHD. I think
on borderline, I think I'm a psychopath. I'm like, wait, wait, wait,
tell me why what are the symptoms? And what they
tell me has absolutely nothing here I have read here
the diagnostic manual. No, you don't all have bipolar. You
(36:52):
don't all have ADHD. It is sexy to think you do.
And no, you're not all autistic right now.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
That's I said, I swear to God. When I was
reading this, I was laughing because I'm like, I just
set my husband like five videos that that said that
I was autistic, so are all of my children, all
three of my children. And he used too, just based
upon all of the things that it was saying.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
And then I was just.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Thinking, like, who, like everyone I know is like this, actually,
Like what's the difference. I don't understand it's it is
And it's always like just a regular person putting out
these videos too. It's not someone like in your field,
for example.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
I don't know, like, I don't find it that surprising
that the information's incorrect, because I feel like once a
week on the show, we have a story about people
doing totally dumb stuff this you know, TikTok and landing
in the hospital or in severe pieces they end up dying,
And it's like, why are we listening to a total
stranger on the internet that says this is a good idea?
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Yeah, well, what was that trend where people were like
breathing in like cocoa powder or something.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Oh yeah, taking spoonfuls of the cinnamon sugar or put
Pa Potter.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Yeah, wait, their'st making them really sick.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
It's every we have. In one of our episodes this week,
we have a social media influencer who was eating cosmetics
on and she's dead. She's twenty four years old and
she's dead. So I'm sure that you have something to
do with one another. Well they're family saying there's no connection,
but we'll talk. We talk more about that on another episode.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
I you know, it's good and bad. TikTok started as
a dance platform, right, but now it's got the strongest
algorithm I've ever seen where if you are depressed, it's
just gonna throw depressing videos at you in all these
different layers and the nuances, and it's timing when you
stay on videos, I mean the natural language processing. There's
(38:50):
so much going on for each video to get to you.
And so if it is interested in mental health with you,
if you're looking for coping skills, you're looking to end
your life, it's going to send you things to continue
watching the video, which is fucking horrifying it. Eventually it
does not become a healthy deep dive right in the algorithm.
(39:15):
So you end up getting coping skills that may be popular,
but they're not going to treat whatever mental health symptom
you are experiencing. Then you're going to be berated with
people who also have whatever mental health symptom you think.
You have to just concritize these views in your mind.
So then you start doing things to treat things that
(39:37):
you don't have, and you're missing what you actually do have,
which means that you just become more ill. It's just
a horrible, a horrible mental health problem with social media.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
I know, and I don't do TikTok. I think that
we have a TikTok, but well we have a TikTok.
But I'm just like I've heard because I've been hearing
these things, and I'm like, I don't need another thing
to give me a problem, you know, in my life,
and another thing to check and all that. But I
do worry. I mean, my kids don't have it, and
(40:11):
I don't plan on ever letting them get social media.
But I worry about young people having to do with
exactly you're just saying, and you hear it with especially
with with with girls. It's worse because of the dieting
and just the unrealistic beauty expectations and the filters and
(40:31):
all this stuff. It's so it's really scary, right.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
It's not healthy if you can try to keep it healthy.
I mean I tell people all the time. You know,
you can restore or refresh your settings to default and
start over on TikTok so that they don't keep building
on negative things you're searching for, because you know, scientifically
we sit on negative videos longer than positive videos, and
so then you're gonna load more and more negative videos.
(40:59):
But if you are going to get medical advice from
social media, get it from somebody who's credible. Get it
from somebody who has degrees and a license and is
referencing there are scientific based articles that they used to
come up with their opinion. Right, So even if somebody
has a doctorate, if they're not referencing actual science, who
(41:23):
knows what, who knows their opinion, they may have lost
their license. They may not actually be a doctor. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
Well, yeah, and that's scary because you don't really know anybody. Yeah,
and it's funny because we had gotten a review a
couple of weeks ago basically saying we were spreading misinformation
about gluten being inflammatory. But the awesome thing about your job, mom,
is that, like you're able to, you know, cite all
the scientific articles. I went right on Instagram and uploaded
(41:52):
like ten papers saying, no, it's actually totally a thing,
you know what I mean, This isn't this isn't some
quack science. I'm trying to say, it's a thing, and
it's you know, I just I get annoyed with the
word misinformation because I think that because there are a
lot of things that people have called misinformation in the
past that aren't and that's throughout time, not just with
(42:15):
social media, but like, well, I thank you forever. So
I think you can argue, like the words narcissism and
psychopath and your field, people just misuse it so often
that it starts taking on a whole new definition and
they don't really understand what the true meaning of it is,
which I think you know.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
What's been interesting for me is that when things are
televised like these trials, everybody wants to diagnose the person,
and you've got people diagnosing the person. One, they've never
met the person, so they're just basing it on what
they're seeing, which is manipulated information from lawyers. And two,
they don't understand diagnosing, Like you can't diagnose someone as
(42:53):
a psychopath. That's not a diagnosis. That's a character trait,
that's a personality disorder. It it has components of what
we would use to diagnose someone. But like what's spreading
around is just people trying to stay relevant and trying
to understand what they're seeing. Like with Sean Colmes, it
is so incredibly bizarre what he's been up to. Let's
(43:17):
say that, and everybody wants to figure out what is
wrong with him, find it, say it for me, but
it's we can't. We don't know enough, so we can't
clearly understand it, and you know, we always have that
hope we have to be okay with also not knowing
and trusting that the process will show itself.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
So let's talk about some of your viral videos that
have gone that you've done, because I know that you
do videos all the time, but obviously, like some of
them catch on and one of them like So let's
talk about this one first. The shopping cart one was
a big one. Tell everybody about that.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
I made a seventeen second video in my car where
I said I wasn't going to return my shopping car
if my kids were in the car and I'd already
gotten my groceries in, and I told the whole world
to fuck off and not judge me. And it was
purposely very sensational provocative because what I fight for is
(44:25):
just building awareness in people, and people are so ignorant
it drives me crazy. People are so unaware of their
surroundings and they don't want to think that they're going
to be harmed. You know, I don't care if you
live in a nice neighborhood. Like a thirteen year old
just used her jiu jitsu and took down a guy
in a parking lot. In Carmel by the Sea, the
(44:47):
most quaint beautiful town in northern California. She broke his
ankle like she's a badass child. Yeah, I loves the sorry,
but like the naivety of people, And so I wanted
to do a video where I was just like, no,
like you aren't choosing, like not being judged by fucking
strangers over your trusting your intuition and being aware of
(45:10):
your surrounding and surroundings and saying, you know, I'm not
gonna turn my cart if potentially there's a threat, if
I see a threat, if I feel a threat, if
I if my kids are in the car, and I
just don't want to risk that safety. It's fucking fine.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
I it's so funny that you're saying this because I
so my kids now are my little ones. Anyway, they're
ten and twelve years old, right, so now they're they're
capable of like being little people. But back in the day,
I mean they're only a year and a half apart.
I would bring both of them to the grocery store
and I'd have like a two and a three year
(45:44):
old or a three and a four year old, like
little kids. And I recall putting them in their seep
in their car seats and being nervous about that not
like I mean, you deal with criminals, so your mind
automatically goes to getting a criminal. But I would think, like,
when I'm pushing this cart back, if some person comes
raging down in the car and runs me over, are
(46:06):
people going to know that my children or there's children
in a car that are strapped in and and the
doors are shut, because I would shut and lock the
doors if I was walking away at least, But then
I'd be like, they're in there cooking because it's it's
the spring or something, you know. Like that kind of
stuff would always go through my head and we really
(46:26):
should not really care what people think of us, Like, Okay,
you think I'm a doucebag for not putting back the car. Okay,
who cares? You know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (46:34):
Yeah? And I you know cartnerks or whoever. This guy
is Sebastian Davis, this guy who can't get an acting job,
did like this extensive video on me, and I was like, thanks,
I got so many legal cases after it. Right, he
put my website out there. I was like, damn, my website.
Look it's good right mates. Yeah, you're like, I merge,
(46:56):
I emerge on it. I think he was trying to
level by using it. It didn't really do much from
because it's not about the shopping cart. There's a greater message.
And when I think another key thing here is that
many men have said the same thing, they've done the
same video, and they don't they didn't get the response
I got. I mean I got death threats. The FBI
(47:18):
is involved, they're still involved, they're following people. I had
some fucking knit with drop off a handwritten letter to
my office saying I don't want to help your algorithm,
but I hate you and I hope you die.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
Well, that's just it's weird because of because you said
you won't put back a shopping cart.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
Like just think about that for a second. Yeah, I
mean I know the hook of fuck you didn't help,
but it helps me, right, all right?
Speaker 2 (47:48):
So what about So the other one you have is
also one that's really good about kids posting pictures of
your kids in like bathing suits and things like that.
Speaker 1 (47:59):
Yeah. Yeah, the shopping cart video, I want to say,
head over one hundred million reshares and reposts. That was
insane and then not putting your children on social media
and understanding the mind of a pedophile and a predator.
I think those videos are thirty forty million shares and
(48:20):
views right now, which is kind of insane because people
people don't like to think about the mind of a pedophile.
How does a pedophile think? How does he groom people do?
Where does it start? Right? It starts online, It starts
by looking at well, I think it starts by looking
at bathing suits and magazines because that's safer for a pedophile.
(48:43):
But the stimulation needs to increase for these individuals. They
want to see live videos, They want to see the
kids dancing. They want to see potentially maybe a glimpse
at some kind of sexualized object or something near the child.
That account with Wren and Jacqueline was horrifying to me.
(49:05):
She was purposely putting her little beautiful girl next to
phallic images and posting those pictures and then comments were
fucking disgusting. Why do a million people need to save
a video of your four year old sucking on a
hot dog? Like? It was just horrible.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
I don't even know about this.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Oh my god, I think well. I think her account
was taken down after I went viral with a video
about that, and she sent me some fake season desist.
I have like seventeen lawyers. I don't know what you're doing, idiot.
Speaker 2 (49:36):
But so was she what was she like? Did she
act like she wasn't purposely doing that or no, she
was just trying to go viral. That's disgusting.
Speaker 1 (49:48):
It's disgusting. And so you've got people purposely using phallic
images like she would have her do with the straw test,
where she would suck on different straws to guess the
flavor of the drink, like everything was a phallic image,
or it was her, you know, sitting crisscross apple sauce
in a skirt with her body showing and this is
(50:09):
this is a baby, this is a toddler horrifying. But
so my videos where I'm really explaining that, you know,
I've talked to pedophiles, I've worked with them. I gauge
their violence risk, I assess them, I keep them locked up,
I keep them away from all of you. I can
speak to how they are looking at you as prey,
(50:31):
how they are picking children, how they're standing outside of
schoolyards hoping that somebody does something on the monkey bars.
That's stimulating to them.
Speaker 3 (50:41):
You know.
Speaker 1 (50:41):
They take this masturbatory stimulation from images on the internet
that you're providing from kids they see in grocery stores everywhere.
They take it home. They masturbate. What's next. The next
thing is that they want a real life child, They
want to do it, and then they focus on getting one.
Speaker 2 (51:03):
Yeah, that's and I'm glad that these videos that you're
doing are going viral because really I know people that
do this all the time, and you know what, I'm like,
shout out to my mom. She's been on this from
day one, which and she isn't in any field or
anything like that. She just always would be like so
(51:23):
and so is posting pictures of their kids, like in
their bathing suit and in their in their dance class
and this and that, and it is it is interesting
that my mom would always just be like, I think
that somebody's going to be a pervert and look at this,
like you shouldn't post pictures like that. And I think
this is a.
Speaker 3 (51:41):
Really important conversation to have because we're often talking about
safety on the show with you know, so everyone I
know that's just bought a house posts the front of
their house with their address, and all you have to
do is screenshot at Google re versus and it's right
there on Zilo right, So I think it's dumb. We've
also recently talked about how people are live posting when
they're on vacation, and it just it's either like you're
(52:03):
not at home so I could rob you, or I
could follow where you are. I know exactly where you are.
But as somebody that's like, you know, thinking about hopefully
going into motherhood soon and everything, I do think these
videos are important because I'm sitting here questioning am I
gonna upload any pictures of my children on the internet,
because I feel it is so unsafe anymore in this environment,
(52:25):
and everyone is refusing to accept that because it doesn't
fit their perfect little Facebook page with their perfect little
family photos. I think it's not smart to show kids'
faces anymore.
Speaker 1 (52:36):
And you know, I hate to say it. You know
I would post my kids on my private account all
the time, and I only had like a handful of
a few hundred friends followers. Everyone I knew, everyone I
had spent time with. One of the guys is in
prison for loot and Lusavia's acts against a twelve year
old and I he liked every single picture of my
daughter I posted. I knew him. I worked with him
(52:59):
day in and day out four years, and I didn't
know it like I. That horrified me. So you've got
that aspect, then you've also got you know, hackers can
see your private accounts. They can access your accounts and
get images of your children, even if your account is
set to private. It's not common, but it only takes
(53:20):
one time. Yeah, you know, ude, it only takes one
time for that to be morphed into some kind of
deep fake on AI and put on porn hub. And
now you're sixteen year old. Now you're I don't know,
a ten year old looks like she's in a sex tape.
That's what's happening.
Speaker 3 (53:38):
It's really horrible. I mean, we even had a story
a couple months ago where they were considering making child
size sex dolls for pedophiles to use, and how horrific, Like,
in my mind, that's a horrific idea because they're always
going to want to escalate from that exactly, And some
dumb fucking politician was trying to push that forward, saying
(53:59):
that that would that.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
Lady so bad. Yes, it was like like it's going
to appease them. No, it's not. Hello, look at Sean
Coln's nothing appeased as a sex drive. It builds it,
it grows it. They hone their interest, they hone their crime,
just like a serial killer. They get cleaner, they get
better at it, they streamline what they want to do.
Speaker 3 (54:19):
Well, how do you feel about people using the term
maps to try to make pedophilia sound better?
Speaker 1 (54:26):
Well, I mean some of it, some of it I understand,
like we want to be able to say these things
so that we can say it on social media and
people can learn, So there's a positive side to it. Also,
the people who are like super rigid about diagnosing pedophilia
has very specific criteria, right, So it has to be
(54:48):
a pre pubescent child, there has to be a theme,
it has to be six months. And so if we
want to get away from the very uh rigid criteria
of pedophilia, I don't. We do need other terms, right,
we need, but what we need to say is a
paraphilic disorder. We need to say that somebody is a
(55:10):
predator towards the youth, right, we can't make it sound nicer.
Speaker 3 (55:17):
Yeah, that's my problem with it because you know, we
have somebody we know in our life that truly thinks
that's a way to put it, because she believes it's
a sexual preference, which extremely is bothersome to me because
to me, it's like, why are we sugarcoating what it is?
Because when we stop addressing it like it's something that's bad,
(55:38):
that's when it starts becoming something that's more acceptable and
our kids get hurt more. And I just can't be
okay with that.
Speaker 2 (55:45):
You know, Well, I think it could be both like
it is it is. I think that more people need
to realize that it is a sexual preference. So like
the way I want to have sex with my husband,
like these people feel like they want to have sex
with children, Right, It's kind of it's kind of like
an attraction, but it's not like it's not good. It's
(56:06):
nothing that we should ever try to be like, oh, well,
they're sick. It's kind of I don't know, like I
look at it like they're sick and they need to
be eliminated off the planet kind of thing, because I
just I can't tolerate that. But I think it could
be both.
Speaker 1 (56:20):
Yeah, I wouldn't say it's a like a sexual preference, though,
because that implies positivity and choice. I think it's a
pathologically deviant, disturbing, sadistic form of stimulation and entertainment for
individuals who are sick in the head, right, And so
(56:40):
that's what I do a lot when I testify to
juries is yeah, lawyers, lawyers are bashful when it comes
to a grown male's erect penis went into a two
year old vagina and led to this tearing. And here's
the imagery, and let's talk about what like, lawyers get
bashful a lot of the time, and they don't want
then they don't want the jury to hear that. But
the reality is that these are sadistic, fucking crimes. They
(57:04):
are horrifying, and they are brutalizing children. And the images
of the children after these men have harmed them, I'll
never get them out of my mind. I never want
anyone to ever have to endure that, to find their
child like that, to sit through a court case having
to talk about this and see these images. Why not
(57:26):
just prevent it? Is there?
Speaker 2 (57:28):
Do you think that there's a way, Like, so you're
saying it's not a sexual preference, So so is there
a way that these people have like they're married and
they have like normal kind of sex lives with I
don't want to say normal, but they have like a
normal kind of sex life with their husband their wife.
And then yeah, and then is that what you're saying
(57:50):
that they could like have that, but then they also
just have this deviant behavior as well, Like it's like
are they are if they're attracted? I want to do
this to children, like do they have attraction towards adults too?
Speaker 1 (58:03):
Or no?
Speaker 2 (58:05):
Do they enjoy having normal, like like adult sex.
Speaker 1 (58:11):
I think they. I think there's a beginning to it
where there's a confusion. You know, I have these desires,
do I act on them? Because they are illegal and
horrendous and so there is an element where it becomes
a choice. They choose to act on the disordered thinking.
I like to I like to explain it like a
(58:35):
grown man has a grown man's sex drive, but an
attraction emotionally and intellectually to a child. So you know,
what is what is it like talking to a six
year old right or a four year old? They're really
they make you feel good, They're really happy. You know
that they're happy little beings and they think you're funny,
(58:56):
and you can do very little to make them a gigle. Right,
That's what the pedophile is misconstruing as this child is
interested in me, and then they're overlaying now with this
adult sex drive and deluding it to think like, okay,
they want me to have sex with them.
Speaker 2 (59:16):
Do you think that there's any like this is your
honest opinion, Like, do you think that there's a way
to fix these peoples that thought that's in their head
that makes them act on that.
Speaker 1 (59:28):
Consequences? I think keeping them away from what they want
is the only thing that we can do.
Speaker 2 (59:36):
Because that's I mean, that's scary because when someone gets
accused of it, obviously they don't really a lot of
them don't get that much punishment, and they are able
to do it again. So what's the solution Just to
put them on an island somewhere where they just can
never have I mean, it's just.
Speaker 1 (59:56):
Well, people like to make fun of California, of course
everyone does, But in California, we have a Welfare and
Institution Code where sexually violent predators are held as patients.
They are held they're civilly committed, and they're held in
a place called coalinga state hospital and other places. But
(01:00:17):
the whole thing with that is that unless they engage
in treatment in a meaningful way and change is seen,
they can't get out. So they don't have a prison time.
There's no clock ticking. It's a life sentence unless they,
as a patient improve and no one does. So we're
(01:00:38):
not killing them all. We can't. Right in California, I
think we figured out a pretty good way to lock
them up for life.
Speaker 3 (01:00:46):
That is really interesting. I was going to make a
bad joke that was like, that's how we should have
transformed Pedophile Island, perhaps instead of another hotel conglomerate buying
it to make your resort on. But I think that's
really interesting you guys do that in California because we're
always talking about how, you know, these people get convicted
of these horrific rapes and they're only going to jail
(01:01:06):
for four years, and we always are arguing that that's
just as bad as killing somebody. You're taking their entire
life emotionally, and there's only so much work a victim
could do to get over that, and a lot of
victims are able to move forward and everything, but it's
still always there, so why aren't these people getting convicted
as such?
Speaker 1 (01:01:25):
Right? And so, like, you know, I have a case
right now of a very similar case. Will he become
a sexually violent predator or not? It takes extensive psychological testing,
so much collateral information. How is he in group therapy
when he's in the state hospital? Is he engaging in
a meaningful way? How do you gauge that? Like, there's
(01:01:47):
so many different components. What's their violence, what's their sexual
violence recidivism rate? We use all these statistics. There's so
much that goes into it. But when you just lock
a guy up with the sentence and then he gets
out and has to register as a sex offender, I
don't think it's enough.
Speaker 3 (01:02:03):
No, I agree one hundred.
Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
Do they when you talk to them, do they feel
bad about this about themselves? Do they wish they weren't
like this? Or do they not think that there's anything
wrong with it?
Speaker 1 (01:02:19):
I think I'm I'm biased because I do work with
the most severe, But I think there are individuals early
on who still have that insight and that cognitive dissonance
where they know it's wrong and they don't want to
have this this drive, and they if they do act
(01:02:42):
on it. Sometimes there is a bit of remorse, but
usually it is so exhilarating for them that they continue
to act on it, and they lack insight, they lack remorse,
they lack the ability to do they don't care for
the most part. But there's that small percentage people message
me on Instagram or even TikTok just saying, like, you know,
(01:03:05):
I really like anime, I really like the youthful characters
in anime. Does that mean I'm in danger of being
a pedophile? And my response is always go see a therapist.
You know, I'm not your therapist. If you're questioning if
you're going to be a pedophile, go see a therapist,
get help, get support, prevent it. And it's wonderful that
(01:03:27):
they are even questioning it because maybe we have a
chance at intervention at that point before it becomes an
all encompassed view of sexuality for them.
Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
Yeah, it's it's kind of cool that people feel comfortable.
I mean, they should get a therapist, but it's cool
that they feel comfortable like emailing you to question something
that they feel they may not have ever thought of
if you didn't bring it up.
Speaker 1 (01:03:52):
I know, I get so much hate, but also I'm
actually quite helpful. Guys.
Speaker 3 (01:03:58):
You have an awesome sweatshirt too that says I'm not
your fucking therapist, which.
Speaker 1 (01:04:02):
Is yeah, that's my liability.
Speaker 3 (01:04:05):
No, that's it's an awesome sweatshirt. It's like a beautiful
black sweashirt with this hot pink writing. It's very dainty, bright,
and I love it.
Speaker 2 (01:04:12):
Yeah, no, it's so great.
Speaker 3 (01:04:14):
Well, on this dark note, I guess it's doctor Leslie.
Please tell everybody where.
Speaker 1 (01:04:19):
They could find you. Oh gosh, I'm everywhere. So doctor
Leslie Dobson mostly on Instagram and TikTok is kind of
where I put my efforts in where I will respond
to your messages and comments. My website is doctor Leslie
Doobson dot com. If you need me as an expert,
as an expert witness, you can reach out that way.
(01:04:40):
And then I have a group of assistants that will
respond to you. You know, I do get a lot
of crazy messages, so there's a team behind me. And
then the new podcast is intentionally disturbing with iHeartRadio and
that's everywhere you listen to podcasts, right, I don't really
even know. And on my YouTube if you want to
(01:05:01):
see the people I'm talking to.
Speaker 3 (01:05:04):
Thank you so much for coming on. This is an
awesome conversation. I think our listeners are really gonna love it.
Speaker 2 (01:05:09):
Yeah, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (01:05:10):
Thanks for having me. I'm glad we we covered quite
an array of topics.
Speaker 2 (01:05:19):
Thank you for listening to Mother nos Death. As a reminder,
my training is as a pathologists assistant. I have a
master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education.
I am not a doctor and I have not diagnosed
or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of
a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, and social
(01:05:43):
media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based
on my experience working in pathology, so they can make
healthier decisions regarding their life and well being. Always remember
that science is changing every day and the opinions expressed
in this episode are based on my knowledge of those
subjects at the time of publication. If you are having
(01:06:05):
a medical problem, have a medical question, or having a
medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit an urgent
care center, emergency room, or hospital. Please rate, review, and
subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or
anywhere you get podcasts.
Speaker 1 (01:06:25):
Thanks
Mother Knows Death starring Nicole and Jemmy and Maria qk.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hi. Everyone, welcome The Mother Knows Death. Today. We have
some great stories we will be discussing with a special guest.
You may have heard of doctor Leslie Dobson, who is
a clinical and forensic psychologist with over twenty years of
experience in severe mental illness, violence, and sexual offenses. She's
been a guest on Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, one
(00:43):
of our faves. She's also author of the book to
Frank Clens and she hosts the Intentionally Disturbing podcast, but
she's probably best known for her viral social media videos. Hi,
doctor Leslie, Welcome The Mother Knows Death.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Hi, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
We're so excited to do this episode with you. We
had a couple stories in the news recently about people
who just faked their kidnapping and things like that, and
we've been saving it aside for you. So you want
to get into the first story.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Yeah, I've been dying to talk about this Sherry Peppini
docu series that came out a couple of weeks ago,
because we've covered the case a lot, and when you
were coming on, I was like, we have to have
to have to talk to doctor Leslie about this. So
for our listeners that aren't familiar with this story, this
happened back in twenty sixteen where this wife and mother
mysteriously vanished. One morning, her husband got a call from
(01:36):
the daycare that the kids never got picked up. When
he got home, she wasn't there. She was missing for
all this time. Her family was pleading on the news
for her to come back or where was she. Nobody
knew what happened. They thought she was abducted. So all
of a sudden, on Thanksgiving, she returns home, her hair'spin chopped,
she has this brand on her back. She claimed that
two Hispanic women had kidnapped her. It ended up turning
(01:59):
out that she was staying with an ex boyfriend at
this time, and she got arrested for faking her own kidnapping.
So now this docuseries has come out where she is
a new side of the story, which I'm gonna argue
is even worse than the original story. I don't know
what do you guys think about this? Like in the docuseries,
she was giving the producers a new story, and by
(02:21):
the end of the four episodes, I feel like they
were calling her out and having even more inconsistencies. And
I realized by the end of it that the only
people that claim she was telling the truth were people
she was paying, meaning her therapist and her lawyers.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Can therapists be paid off like that? I don't, that's
kind of that sounds really unethical.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
There are a lot of stupid therapists, I don't, like,
you know, they can be manipulated. She she comes off
to me like she has some personality disorders, and so
I would imagine, you know, she takes pride in being
referred to as a master manipulator. But yet she has
(03:05):
this meekness to her and this like this youthfulness, and
it reminds me of so many notorious women who were
capable of doing horrible things, but they would kind of
draw you in with this almost like this delicateness. Yes,
(03:26):
and it was like a mask for the maliciousness that
they were capable of. No, I don't. I don't know
what she was doing for twenty two days, but I
believe her boyfriend.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Yeah, it's kind of crazy because our listeners are not
going to believe this. But I've never seen the movie
Gone Girl. I just read the book last week and
I was like laughing to myself at how she seriously,
three years after this book and movie came out, took
every detail from this novel and implemented it in real life.
I mean, she just lost her job, just like the
(04:00):
main character and Gon girl lost her job. She's sitting
around the house with a rocky marriage. She's having this affair.
She meets up with this ex boyfriend who she basically,
in my opinion, sets up to has committed this crime
because she wanted to run away and then in the
middle of it decided she made a huge mistake and returned.
It's exactly the plot of the book.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
It's interesting to me because it's hard to differentiate delusion
from you a purposeful lie. And that's where I would
do so many psychological assessments on her, and oh, I
would just have a field day with her. But you know,
there was a movie that came out with I think
was Channing Tatum and he was drugging people and they
(04:44):
were Blink Twice. Is that the movie? Yeah? Okay, so
so many people have referenced Blink Twice as they as
what they experienced from Seawan Colmbs and they are referencing
it to the tea. And so there are three people
I can think of that have quite a big following
(05:06):
now and have reached out to me, and I've spoken
to them. They are straight ap delusional or they are lying,
and it is because of the similarities and the references
to the movie and the linear fashion of how the
movie played out, and that is how they are saying
their experience was, they weren't trafficked, they never met the
(05:26):
guy they did. These stories aren't true. And so when
it comes to Peppine is a Peppinie, Yes, Pepini, It's
just it's it's too unbelievable to be believable. She's consistently inconsistent,
and so you look for that in psychology, you look
(05:46):
for like the linearity of the story over time and
the elements and the components. If it smells fishy, it's
a fish.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
So wait, so this is for let's go back, because
I'm not sure I understood what you said about the
the p Didty situation, because I haven't heard this yet.
So you're saying that the witnesses that are describing their
stories are describing stories that are similar to a movie
and may not be what they actually experienced.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Not the witnesses in trial.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Okay, so other people though, yes, other other.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
People who have substantial followings and have reached out to
me because they want to be on my podcast or
you know, they want me to advocate for them. And
you know, once I I'm never going to have a
mentally ill, severely mentally ill person on my podcast. I'm
not going to take advantage of that state of mind.
(06:45):
I don't agree with all of the interviews soft White
Underbelly does because he will go out at three am
to Compton offer someone fifty bucks they're on crack, and
he'll interview them. And I think that that's a really
poor use of our platforms. And so people reach out
and I could easily interview someone who says they were
(07:05):
trafficked by Diddy and fully be aware that they're delusional
because they are literally stating seen by seeing the movie
Blink twice. But I just I don't. Ethically, it's just
so wrong to me. So No, the people on the
stand testifying, I truly believe them, and I think that
when when the defense is going at their credibility, I
(07:29):
think that's the only way they they can really fight back.
In this case. But you can't really go against someone's
credibility when they're high as a fucking kite all day
and all night on a million substances as well. So
their lack of consistent memory on the stand in trial
right now, I do not think is a lack of
(07:54):
credibility or truce. I think it's like a substance induced
crazy nightmare they lived.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
It's interesting that you're saying that because I was thinking,
like this Sherry Peppini person has done interviews and it's
like these people, is it that they're lying and they're
just good at lying or do they really believe their stories?
That's like, I guess that's something that you would do
is figure that out.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Yeah, we have a lot of psychological assessments that can
figure that out that look for delusional disorder, paranoia, a
desire to fake good, you want to look more sick
than you are. You know, we can look at all
of that, and we look at that through a variety
of tests that are very different and they're normed on
samples of people just like you and me. So you
(08:41):
look for similar people, same ethnicity, same age, same gender,
and you compare answers and the test will be like, WHOA,
this is like super extreme for somebody like this, this
doesn't make sense and it lines up everything. And then
we have tons of different tests and then I look
at each test and I compare all the results. It's
really really fucking tedious. Sherry is too inconsistent. These stories
(09:09):
are too bizarre and ever changing for me to think
that it would be delusional. It seems a little more volitional,
like she's enjoying the same and the clout from it.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Yeah, I would agree, because you know, obviously everybody has
a right to tell their side of the story. But
they're sitting there criticizing her ex husband for doing the
Hulu documentary about her when she's doing this other documentary
making accusations about him stealing her children away, when I
don't really think it's that far fetched that you know,
she might not have custody after going to prison, So
(09:47):
I think it's I think it's kind of outrageous to
sit there and say that he stole her kids away.
And I mean, I'm not saying he's a perfect guy either.
Clearly their marriage wasn't great. His sister was even in
the docuseries. You know, on Cherry side for most of it,
which I thought was strange. But you know, you did
go to prison, and you did admit that you lied,
(10:07):
and your story continues to be inconsistent. So what I
thought was most pivotal part of the documentary not pivotal,
but a great part of the documentary was it ended
with her asking the production team do you think this
is going to be better or worse for me? And
I would say, as somebody that's followed this case for
almost ten years, I think it's way worse for her.
(10:28):
She seems even more guilty of my opinion.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
I can totally see her branding herself like it's just
I can see her coming up with what she thought
was like this epic story and plan didn't work out, Okay,
go to prison. Oh I've got another one for you.
Here's my news to break and plan. Oh we've got
thirsty producers who need airtime. Okay, they're willing to give
(10:54):
me what fifteen hundred bucks to do? Okay? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Because how is she making money now out of prison?
And exactly like I think she thought she was going
to be this next Gone girl. But the difference between
her and the main character in that book is she
does not have the same intelligence level. And we have
to remember that's a fictionalized book, so she clearly didn't
line everything up as perfectly as she thought she was
going to.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
And intelligence is so interesting, right because it's based on
so many different facets of the mind. So she could
be very very emotionally manipulative and intelligent in that way,
but lack of intelligence with like forethought and future oriented thinking.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Yeah, that's what I was thinking too, Like I'm just like, okay,
I get your plan, but like, what did you think
was going to happen next? There's not like any plan
after week one or something of like how are people
going to look at this and take this and like
what's going to happen next of it? It's really like
it's kind of weird, honestly. Remember that was a girl,
(12:01):
maybe it was like a year or two ago, a
young woman named Carly Russell who did the same thing.
She said that she got She pulled over to the
side of the road because she saw this toddler walking
on the side of the road in a diaper, and
then she she claims she was kidnapped, and then she
ended up at her parents' house like two days later
and it. Obviously the whole story didn't check out. You
(12:23):
don't think from a cops perspective that they're gonna look
into this a little bit and then like what was
the point of that? Like what is going through these
people's minds? It's so weird.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
I mean, I don't know if they couldn't get a
job at Starbucks, people are weird. As a therapist that
I like, I'm always just coming to the conclusion that
people are really weird. If you find good people and
you have a circle of like three friends, that's super amazing. Yeah,
(12:56):
because people have darkness inside them. People have secrets, and
even your closest friend you don't know her dirt. And
being a therapist, I get to find out. But also
being a forensic psychologist, I get to do these psychological
assessments and I get to manipulate these psychopathic people in
(13:18):
order for them to show me higher levels of their psychopathy.
So there's this manipulation present where I get like some
good tea that other people don't get.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
I know, it's so it's so juicy, like I want
to hear. I know you can't talk about patients, but
can are you allowed to like tell general stories? As
long as you don't give away who it is, right
like why why not?
Speaker 1 (13:45):
And a lot of a lot of court cases are
are public, so we all you see my name listed
as the expert or I'm my testimonies out there. But
I've worked with, you know, thousands of the most mentally ill,
severely violent, mostly men. I have to say I don't
have like a huge I don't have a lot of
(14:06):
experience with women because the facilities were largely men, and
I think women are just a little better at getting
away with their crimes. So but yeah, I've I know
where a lot of bodies are buried, you know. I
these men would tell me much more than they were
in for and depending on my role, I could either
(14:29):
report it or I could not. So as a therapist,
you don't unless you're going to kill someone, I can't
tell people that you've killed someone. So there's that the
texture thing. But in forensic psychology, if I'm an expert,
then I would add that to the report. Lawyers just
read it and be like, oh wait, we said there's
thirteen people under the spridge.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Oh my god, that's so interesting, you know what.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Another question that I had is like, we're talking about
this woman's husband, and there's always obvious people have husband's family, Like,
is there a certain type of person that's attracted to
a person like this, because maybe the person that does
these types of things knows that they're manipulative and they
look for a weak or lenk almost because it sometimes
(15:16):
it seems like the family or the husband it happened
with it. What was that woman's name, Susan with the
car with the kids back in the day. Why can't
I think of what her name is right now? You know,
the one that faked that she got carjacked and the
car went into the water with the kids still in
the car, and she she said that she was kidnapped, and.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
I vaguely remember it.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Yeah, well it was like her husband believed her at first.
Like what is it about these family members that are
they're completely just have no idea that their loved one
is is capable of coming up with a lie like this,
Like they believe what they're doing.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
People are ignorant and simple, And you know, I think
the real truth is that we can barely manage our
own lives and to be able to shift our paradigm
and change our perspective of a human being so close
to us. It's cognitively difficult. It takes energy, it takes time,
(16:20):
it takes commitment to shift that mindset. And you know,
who knows if that's happening in the Seawan Colmbs trial
with his kids sitting there watching and talking about Dad
ejaculate or no, he wasn't ejaculating, playing with the jackular.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
That's weird that the children are there and I don't
care what age they are. It's freaking weird.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Yeah, I think it is weird. Are are like, Are
they like, oh we knew about this? Are they going
to shift their paradigm? Do they love Dad less? Because
they should, But it's it takes a while for people
to not be bamboozled, I guess, and it happens in
good ways and bad ways. But also think that you
(17:02):
know narcissistic men, So people with narcissistic personality disorder often
find relationships with women who have borderline personality disorder. And
these women who are faking cases all have this flare
for borderline personality disorder. Now the narcissist sees it as
someone they can easily control, right, and the borderline is
(17:26):
the relationship begins with the borderline being very flattering, right,
they're all in, they're very devoted because a borderline doesn't
have an identity, so they're going to be whatever the
narcissist wants until they're not until they start to fall
apart and become fragmented again, which is their natural state.
Then the narcissists can't handle that person. The borderline starts
(17:48):
to freak out, and then again, you know, disappears for
twenty two and this stamps her back with something. Is
this not diagnosing, just assuming no.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
I understand. I was curious if this is a similar
personality to people who like the Munchausens by proxy or
just Munchausenes in general. We had a story of a
woman last week who faked having sickle cell anemia, and
I know a lot of people do these things because
they think they could get money from it, and I'm
not sure if it's an attention thing all the time.
(18:21):
But also you have stories of people doing this on
their kids. And then we had another story this week
about a woman who faked a pregnancy. It's just very
like it seems like it's all along the same lines
of just very weird things for people to make up
because they could easily be proven wrong.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, I think, well there's a cash grab, right, I
think especially during this well, with this economy, people are terrified,
and they're people are getting more mentally ill because they're
freaking the fuck out, which is understandable, and they're looking
for simple ways to get attention, notoriety, and to get money.
(19:00):
But again they're not they're not thinking it through Munchausen's.
Munchausen's is a very severe disorder and it shows itself
over many, many, many years. So if there isn't a
history of it, I would assume the person is more
borderline or there's a different diagnosis. But with Munchausen's you're
(19:24):
going to see illnesses for a long long time. And
of course we have the most severe case that I
think we've really had televised was oh Gypsy Rose, Yeah right,
and how many years did that go on? That was
her entire life, that her mother had Munchausen's by proxy.
Oh yeah. So if it's just one of these one
(19:45):
off instances, then I would definitely look towards more of
a borderline, psychopathic, manipulative, despontaneous attempt at a money grab.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
Well, I'm curious your thoughts on this other case we
have about Hannah Kabayah. She so we had talked about
her last year. She had flown from Hawaii to lax
She was supposed to take a connecting flight to New York.
She never got on that flight. Her family ended up
declaring her missing, and then her father went to la
to look for her, ended up dying by suicide, only
for her to turn up in Mexico a couple weeks later.
(20:19):
So I think this case is really interesting because she's
not this article saying she's speaking out for the first time,
and she's not really saying much. But it seems like
she just wanted to kind of disappear for a little
bit and didn't realize how damaging it was going to
be to her entire family.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Right, that her dad was gonna off himself.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Yeah, like that's nuts, right, But I understand that as
a parent, Like if my kid was missing, like I
can't even fathom what that would feel like, even if
it was you, Maria, an older kid like it it
would be like the grossest feeling ever I can't imagine.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Yeah, but I it's all bizarre to me because I
would still I would look, I would keep looking right. Yea,
there was no there were no remains found, there was
no proof of death or anything. So it makes me think,
you know, why did he kill himself so quickly? Is
there something he didn't want seen? Was he feeling guilty?
(21:18):
Did he think that he had led to her running away?
Why did she There's so many questions about, well, why
this was so severe in so many ways and drastic?
Speaker 3 (21:29):
Yeah, because her family seeming to say that she was
in some sort of danger, and it's come out that
her and her father had an estranged relationship, So if
they were truly estranged, it is bizarre he would take
such a dramatic step and was he involved in that danger?
Why are they not rushing to clear it up? I mean,
I guess it's kind of none of our business, but
when it reaches the public and people are searching for her,
(21:52):
then it is kind of their responsibility to let us know.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Yeah, I don't with her case, I don't immediately place
blame on her. I'm I'm my lead with curiosity because
of how quickly her father did that. Yeah, so I
think we're I think we're missing a lot and I
would imagine, I would imagine we may never know because
(22:18):
it's her story to tell, you know.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Yeah, And I want to circle back to another story
we have about this fake pregnancy scandal with this Bachelor star.
So I don't know how familiar you are with this case.
I've been following it for over a year, but it's
just been escalating like crazy. So I know, Mom, you're
like not super familiar with because you're not the biggest Bachelor.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
I just don't.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Like she told me about, oh there's this thing that
and I was like, yeah, people have been faking pregnancy
since the beginning of time, like whatever, Like I don't
I think it's it's a little weird. It's weird for sure,
but like I'm just kind of like, to me, I
look at it like, Okay, he's he has money and
he's somebody and she was trying to get money off
of Like That's how I.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Look at it.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
So to give the listeners some background, this guy Clayton
Ecker that was on The Bachelor. He after it was
on The Bachelor started working in real estate. This woman,
Laura Michelle Owens, reached out to him to help with
some real estate. He fully admits that the day they
met up that they hooked up and only had oral sex,
so he was really surprised when eleven days later she
said she was pregnant. So first it started with that
(23:23):
because you know, of course they're the only two people
in the room, he said. She said, we don't really
know what went on, but he is this entire time
maintained they never had vaginal sex at all. So of
course this starts spiraling, and then it starts coming out that,
you know, she was trying to pursue a relationship. He
didn't really want anything to do with that. The story
starts escalating. She says she's pregnant with twins. She's sending
(23:45):
him ultrasounds, she's sending him medical records, she's taking him
to court over custody, wearing a fake pregnant belly in
the court meetings.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Yeah, that's that's weird.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
That's what I'm talking about, Like she's taking it to
the extreme, and then he ends up finding out she's
done it to a couple other guys and now she's
been federally indicted for it.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
It's just nut and she has like a million phone numbers.
He's had to block her. She's full on stocking him.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
Yeah, over five hundred texts and emails from various different accounts.
I mean, we talk about cases where you know, people
have sex and men refuse to admit that the result
of sex could be pregnancy. But if they really didn't
have sex, if they really didn't have sex, and you know,
(24:31):
he's surprised by this in general, and she has a
history of it. I just think it's really bizarre to
take the extra steps. First you're lying, which is just
really weird, and then you're taking the steps to photoshop
fake documents. You're buying a fake belly on Amazon and
wearing it in court meetings. I mean, how do you
think you're getting away with this? She just said, Oh,
(24:51):
I had a miscarriage. No big deal, It's not how
that works. People have to look into everything.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Well, what would really be the point of there being
a fake pregnant belly for sale anyway? Like why will
for movies and stuff? Okay, well that should be like
a movie prop website. Why can you just buy that
on Amazon? That's seriously, like, that's no good's gonna come
with that.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
Well, when I worked on the movie, we had ordered
various pregnant bellies in different skin tones, and textures to
see which one was the most realistic. So I imagine
this woman doing them too for her own personal I'm
assuming she was doing it for financial gain or I
don't know, it's just it's such a I mean, she.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
She seems ill though, I mean, like, how rich is
this guy? What do you get? Like thirty grands?
Speaker 3 (25:37):
Like the low level, That's what I'm saying, Like, well,
I don't think he's that rich if he had to
go into real estate after being on reality television. And
she's the daughter of a famous radio host, so you
want to assume she comes from some wealthy situation. I
don't know if this is just some sick mind games
she likes playing on guys that reject her, or well.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
You know, it's I would say, like a auto manic
delusional disorder, which is stalking. Right. It's a love based,
sex based, infatuation based obsession with somebody, and you can't
they don't know that it's not reality, and there does
come a point where it switches to other people and
(26:20):
other objects, and then oftentimes it switches back, which is scary.
But if they're not stalking you, they're stocking someone else,
so at least you can be relieved that they're stalking
someone else. So if she can move on, he would
probably feel a lot better.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
Oh yeah, I mean there's an entire website devoted to
victims of her. There's multiple guys on there with their
whole stories of which he put them through. And he
was very gleeful when the indictment came through because he
had been living in this absolute hell for I guess
two years now this has been going on.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
It's kind of like Baby Reindeer ish, like, yes, it does.
It gives that vibe of you know, he gave just enough.
He did engage with her, and then that when somebody
is mentally compromised, it doesn't take much for them to
misread signals and cues. And I would imagine he replied
to her at the beginning, you know, he kind of
(27:12):
like he didn't probably set a really firm boundary. He
was probably trying to be kind. It continued, and then
he was like, whoa, my god, this is getting fucking insane.
Just kind of like how Baby Reindeer played out, and
that's how a lot of delusions and stocking scenarios play out.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
It is so scary to think you're just having a
casual hook up with somebody one time, and then it
just ends up following you for the next couple of
years of your life.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
And maybe forever. Right, I mean, she could just continue
to try and find ways unless she's imprisoned. Now.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Thing is so scary, Oh my god. Yeah, Like when
you hear some of the stories about it, it's just
like there was this I think it was on Nancy
Grace was talking about it actually, like an actress that
was having a stalker and stuff and like having your
children involved and just being scared. And I can't even
imagine that. It's like, what causes is it the same
(28:11):
thing you were just talking about, That's what causes people
to do that?
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Yeah, I think they you know, they're not in the
right mindset. They the delusions are false beliefs, but these
people really believe them. We see them as false. These
people believe them to be true. They misconstrue signs or
they're hallucinating signs. So we would look towards something like
schizophrenia where you're having hallucinations visual you know, you think
(28:38):
he's coming to visit you, you know, like auditory hallucinations
where maybe a lot of the times they think they're
getting phone calls from the individual, and then I'll ask
to see the client's phone and there's no phone calls
coming in, and then the delusional belief then plays off
of that, well, you know, I just saw him, he
(28:59):
just called. He must want me to go to his house.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Yeah, no, it's really interesting. So there's so yeah. So
it's almost like, I mean, sometimes you want to just
like make fun of these people and be like, oh,
that chicks, that chicks the psycho. Like, you know, we've
all had a friend that's that had that that. It's
usually it's sometimes a guy, but it's usually a woman
that's like, you know and like you. But then I
(29:25):
feel bad because if they're really like they really think
it's happening, that's kind of scary for them too.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
They think it's happening. I feel bad for a lot
of female celebrities who have had very very severe stocking
cases and what one it's not very recent, but it
was Natalie Portman, and I think the guy thought he
was in the matrix and he like came to her
house so many times, like dressed like Keanu Reeves, and
(29:55):
he had like semi automatic weapons and he took out
her security. I mean, she was utterly terrified. There's like
her nine to one one calls were out there during
the case, and like he was wanting to either take
her life because of some delusional beliefs that it would
free both of them. But I mean he was. He
(30:15):
got armed and ready and this went on for years.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
Yeah, I mean we remember when we covered the doctor
Amy Harwick case. She had been in this really bad
relationship years before. She hadn't seen the ex boyfriend in
a really long time, ran into him randomly at some convention,
and then a week later he murdered her. It just
like set his mind off, and he stalked her, hid
(30:40):
in her house, was lying in wait, and it was horrible.
So it is crazy how these really little encounters can
just trip somebody up and cause them to just go
over the deep ed.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Yeah. When I was driving to my office this morning,
I needed to make a right turn, and I knew
I wasn't gonna make a right time and get past
a car. I had to wait for the light to
turn green in the car to move forward. The person
behind me didn't grasp that. It's it's like eight in
the morning and she's blaring her horn honking at me,
and I'm like, I carry a gun everywhere I go, Like,
(31:16):
you do this to the wrong person, and you don't
know how much pain, how much misery, how much psychosis
this person has. They will justify just turning around and
shooting you in the fucking head. And it's you cannot
never overestimate, I'm sorry, underestimate people's capacity to be triggered
(31:36):
by your behavior. They put the blame on you. They're
not grounded in reality. And at the end of the day,
your life is threatened and your family's life is threatened.
Like we really have to tread lightly right now, especially
with this administration, especially with just how much divisiveness and
contention there is in America and all over the world.
(32:00):
People are carrying this around with them all the time,
and they're more easily triggered. I have more works than
I've ever had before.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Yeah, I think, And I mean, do you think that
that it's got I mean, you're not really that old,
so it's not not let's say, well that's what I'm saying,
Like you're you're younger than me, but you're still like
around my age. But I'm saying, like you haven't been
practicing that long, I should say that there's been a transition.
(32:29):
I'd like to talk to older uh psychiatrists and psychologists
who who have seen the transition before social media versus
after and then even I mean even when Maria was
a teenager, there was Facebook, I guess.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
Right, Ray, I mean I didn't really have Facebook though
until I was like a sophomore or junior in high school. Yeah,
it was just getting it just popular.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
It was just different until because Instagram was even a
certain way, and it started really with like Snapchat problem,
I would say, like with the videos, and then Instagram
started copying all those ideas off of TikTok and Snapchat.
But like the introduction of those other apps I feel
like is when shit started getting really weird. Yeah, and
(33:15):
it's like, so you wouldn't have really, I mean, you've
been practicing really since then. So it's like hard to
see if there's been like a significant transition for older therapists,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Yeah, it would be really interesting to ask a bunch
of them their perspective. And you know, my perspective is
also biased because people can have cell phones in prison,
so a lot of my well, they could that was
just a problem. But they they didn't have access to
(33:49):
the outside world, and so a lot of my training
was not people manipulated by media.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Yeah, that's it. That is interesting. This episode is brought
to you by the Gross Room. Guys, the Gross Room
is on sale for only twenty dollars for the whole
entire year. And we don't do this often, but let
me tell you what you're going to get. I just
(34:18):
look today. We have over three thousand posts in the
Gross Room that date back to twenty nineteen. So if
you're not a member yet, you will have like months
to look through all of this stuff. There's thousands of
pictures videos that go along with all these posts. And
this week our high profile death dissection was on Francis
Glassner Lee. Right, do you want to talk about that
(34:40):
one a little bit.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
Yeah, So Francis Glessner Lee. She is considered the mother
of forensic science. She is this bad ass older woman
that started making these crime scene doll houses to better
educate homicide detectives and death investigators on how to just
really sit there and observe a scene. So in this dissection,
we break down all of her dollhouses, her history, her
(35:02):
contributions to forensics. She is truly the coolest lady.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Of all time.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Yeah, really like way ahead of her time. So check
all that out and more at the Grosser Room.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
Yeah, head over to the grossroom dot com to sign up.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
All right, So there was recently an article out about
this is going on just a totally different topic about
mental health and social media. So it's interesting because that's
kind of your thing. Which it's really interesting that they
did this particular study. So they looked at one hundred
(35:36):
from on TikTok, the top hundred videos that had hashtag
mental health tips, and they got a bunch of psychiatrists
and psychologists to look at these videos and say, hey,
are these accurate or what kind of information are people
putting out? And they found that fifty two of the
hundred videos were actually bad and giving terrible advice. So
(36:01):
I'm just curious what you think about that. Like, my
particular stance on it is that just because a video
has a lot of views doesn't necessarily mean that people
are taking the advice of it. It's just being said
someone had a catchy hook and it got shared and
that could just be it. But also I guess in theory.
So many people are seeing it so they could take
(36:23):
the advice seriously.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
It's terrifying. But no, I do get people coming in
my office and just being like, I've been on TikTok
for a while. I think I have ADHD. I think
on borderline, I think I'm a psychopath. I'm like, wait, wait, wait,
tell me why what are the symptoms? And what they
tell me has absolutely nothing here I have read here
the diagnostic manual. No, you don't all have bipolar. You
(36:52):
don't all have ADHD. It is sexy to think you do.
And no, you're not all autistic right now.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
That's I said, I swear to God. When I was
reading this, I was laughing because I'm like, I just
set my husband like five videos that that said that
I was autistic, so are all of my children, all
three of my children. And he used too, just based
upon all of the things that it was saying.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
And then I was just.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Thinking, like, who, like everyone I know is like this, actually,
Like what's the difference. I don't understand it's it is
And it's always like just a regular person putting out
these videos too. It's not someone like in your field,
for example.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
I don't know, like, I don't find it that surprising
that the information's incorrect, because I feel like once a
week on the show, we have a story about people
doing totally dumb stuff this you know, TikTok and landing
in the hospital or in severe pieces they end up dying,
And it's like, why are we listening to a total
stranger on the internet that says this is a good idea?
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Yeah, well, what was that trend where people were like
breathing in like cocoa powder or something.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Oh yeah, taking spoonfuls of the cinnamon sugar or put
Pa Potter.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Yeah, wait, their'st making them really sick.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
It's every we have. In one of our episodes this week,
we have a social media influencer who was eating cosmetics
on and she's dead. She's twenty four years old and
she's dead. So I'm sure that you have something to
do with one another. Well they're family saying there's no connection,
but we'll talk. We talk more about that on another episode.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
I you know, it's good and bad. TikTok started as
a dance platform, right, but now it's got the strongest
algorithm I've ever seen where if you are depressed, it's
just gonna throw depressing videos at you in all these
different layers and the nuances, and it's timing when you
stay on videos, I mean the natural language processing. There's
(38:50):
so much going on for each video to get to you.
And so if it is interested in mental health with you,
if you're looking for coping skills, you're looking to end
your life, it's going to send you things to continue
watching the video, which is fucking horrifying it. Eventually it
does not become a healthy deep dive right in the algorithm.
(39:15):
So you end up getting coping skills that may be popular,
but they're not going to treat whatever mental health symptom
you are experiencing. Then you're going to be berated with
people who also have whatever mental health symptom you think.
You have to just concritize these views in your mind.
So then you start doing things to treat things that
(39:37):
you don't have, and you're missing what you actually do have,
which means that you just become more ill. It's just
a horrible, a horrible mental health problem with social media.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
I know, and I don't do TikTok. I think that
we have a TikTok, but well we have a TikTok.
But I'm just like I've heard because I've been hearing
these things, and I'm like, I don't need another thing
to give me a problem, you know, in my life,
and another thing to check and all that. But I
do worry. I mean, my kids don't have it, and
(40:11):
I don't plan on ever letting them get social media.
But I worry about young people having to do with
exactly you're just saying, and you hear it with especially
with with with girls. It's worse because of the dieting
and just the unrealistic beauty expectations and the filters and
(40:31):
all this stuff. It's so it's really scary, right.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
It's not healthy if you can try to keep it healthy.
I mean I tell people all the time. You know,
you can restore or refresh your settings to default and
start over on TikTok so that they don't keep building
on negative things you're searching for, because you know, scientifically
we sit on negative videos longer than positive videos, and
so then you're gonna load more and more negative videos.
(40:59):
But if you are going to get medical advice from
social media, get it from somebody who's credible. Get it
from somebody who has degrees and a license and is
referencing there are scientific based articles that they used to
come up with their opinion. Right, So even if somebody
has a doctorate, if they're not referencing actual science, who
(41:23):
knows what, who knows their opinion, they may have lost
their license. They may not actually be a doctor. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
Well, yeah, and that's scary because you don't really know anybody. Yeah,
and it's funny because we had gotten a review a
couple of weeks ago basically saying we were spreading misinformation
about gluten being inflammatory. But the awesome thing about your job, mom,
is that, like you're able to, you know, cite all
the scientific articles. I went right on Instagram and uploaded
(41:52):
like ten papers saying, no, it's actually totally a thing,
you know what I mean, This isn't this isn't some
quack science. I'm trying to say, it's a thing, and
it's you know, I just I get annoyed with the
word misinformation because I think that because there are a
lot of things that people have called misinformation in the
past that aren't and that's throughout time, not just with
(42:15):
social media, but like, well, I thank you forever. So
I think you can argue, like the words narcissism and
psychopath and your field, people just misuse it so often
that it starts taking on a whole new definition and
they don't really understand what the true meaning of it is,
which I think you know.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
What's been interesting for me is that when things are
televised like these trials, everybody wants to diagnose the person,
and you've got people diagnosing the person. One, they've never
met the person, so they're just basing it on what
they're seeing, which is manipulated information from lawyers. And two,
they don't understand diagnosing, Like you can't diagnose someone as
(42:53):
a psychopath. That's not a diagnosis. That's a character trait,
that's a personality disorder. It it has components of what
we would use to diagnose someone. But like what's spreading
around is just people trying to stay relevant and trying
to understand what they're seeing. Like with Sean Colmes, it
is so incredibly bizarre what he's been up to. Let's
(43:17):
say that, and everybody wants to figure out what is
wrong with him, find it, say it for me, but
it's we can't. We don't know enough, so we can't
clearly understand it, and you know, we always have that
hope we have to be okay with also not knowing
and trusting that the process will show itself.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
So let's talk about some of your viral videos that
have gone that you've done, because I know that you
do videos all the time, but obviously, like some of
them catch on and one of them like So let's
talk about this one first. The shopping cart one was
a big one. Tell everybody about that.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
I made a seventeen second video in my car where
I said I wasn't going to return my shopping car
if my kids were in the car and I'd already
gotten my groceries in, and I told the whole world
to fuck off and not judge me. And it was
purposely very sensational provocative because what I fight for is
(44:25):
just building awareness in people, and people are so ignorant
it drives me crazy. People are so unaware of their
surroundings and they don't want to think that they're going
to be harmed. You know, I don't care if you
live in a nice neighborhood. Like a thirteen year old
just used her jiu jitsu and took down a guy
in a parking lot. In Carmel by the Sea, the
(44:47):
most quaint beautiful town in northern California. She broke his
ankle like she's a badass child. Yeah, I loves the sorry,
but like the naivety of people, And so I wanted
to do a video where I was just like, no,
like you aren't choosing, like not being judged by fucking
strangers over your trusting your intuition and being aware of
(45:10):
your surrounding and surroundings and saying, you know, I'm not
gonna turn my cart if potentially there's a threat, if
I see a threat, if I feel a threat, if
I if my kids are in the car, and I
just don't want to risk that safety. It's fucking fine.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
I it's so funny that you're saying this because I
so my kids now are my little ones. Anyway, they're
ten and twelve years old, right, so now they're they're
capable of like being little people. But back in the day,
I mean they're only a year and a half apart.
I would bring both of them to the grocery store
and I'd have like a two and a three year
(45:44):
old or a three and a four year old, like
little kids. And I recall putting them in their seep
in their car seats and being nervous about that not
like I mean, you deal with criminals, so your mind
automatically goes to getting a criminal. But I would think, like,
when I'm pushing this cart back, if some person comes
raging down in the car and runs me over, are
(46:06):
people going to know that my children or there's children
in a car that are strapped in and and the
doors are shut, because I would shut and lock the
doors if I was walking away at least, But then
I'd be like, they're in there cooking because it's it's
the spring or something, you know. Like that kind of
stuff would always go through my head and we really
(46:26):
should not really care what people think of us, Like, Okay,
you think I'm a doucebag for not putting back the car. Okay,
who cares? You know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (46:34):
Yeah? And I you know cartnerks or whoever. This guy
is Sebastian Davis, this guy who can't get an acting job,
did like this extensive video on me, and I was like, thanks,
I got so many legal cases after it. Right, he
put my website out there. I was like, damn, my website.
Look it's good right mates. Yeah, you're like, I merge,
(46:56):
I emerge on it. I think he was trying to
level by using it. It didn't really do much from
because it's not about the shopping cart. There's a greater message.
And when I think another key thing here is that
many men have said the same thing, they've done the
same video, and they don't they didn't get the response
I got. I mean I got death threats. The FBI
(47:18):
is involved, they're still involved, they're following people. I had
some fucking knit with drop off a handwritten letter to
my office saying I don't want to help your algorithm,
but I hate you and I hope you die.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
Well, that's just it's weird because of because you said
you won't put back a shopping cart.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
Like just think about that for a second. Yeah, I
mean I know the hook of fuck you didn't help,
but it helps me, right, all right?
Speaker 2 (47:48):
So what about So the other one you have is
also one that's really good about kids posting pictures of
your kids in like bathing suits and things like that.
Speaker 1 (47:59):
Yeah. Yeah, the shopping cart video, I want to say,
head over one hundred million reshares and reposts. That was
insane and then not putting your children on social media
and understanding the mind of a pedophile and a predator.
I think those videos are thirty forty million shares and
(48:20):
views right now, which is kind of insane because people
people don't like to think about the mind of a pedophile.
How does a pedophile think? How does he groom people do?
Where does it start? Right? It starts online, It starts
by looking at well, I think it starts by looking
at bathing suits and magazines because that's safer for a pedophile.
(48:43):
But the stimulation needs to increase for these individuals. They
want to see live videos, They want to see the
kids dancing. They want to see potentially maybe a glimpse
at some kind of sexualized object or something near the child.
That account with Wren and Jacqueline was horrifying to me.
(49:05):
She was purposely putting her little beautiful girl next to
phallic images and posting those pictures and then comments were
fucking disgusting. Why do a million people need to save
a video of your four year old sucking on a
hot dog? Like? It was just horrible.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
I don't even know about this.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Oh my god, I think well. I think her account
was taken down after I went viral with a video
about that, and she sent me some fake season desist.
I have like seventeen lawyers. I don't know what you're doing, idiot.
Speaker 2 (49:36):
But so was she what was she like? Did she
act like she wasn't purposely doing that or no, she
was just trying to go viral. That's disgusting.
Speaker 1 (49:48):
It's disgusting. And so you've got people purposely using phallic
images like she would have her do with the straw test,
where she would suck on different straws to guess the
flavor of the drink, like everything was a phallic image,
or it was her, you know, sitting crisscross apple sauce
in a skirt with her body showing and this is
(50:09):
this is a baby, this is a toddler horrifying. But
so my videos where I'm really explaining that, you know,
I've talked to pedophiles, I've worked with them. I gauge
their violence risk, I assess them, I keep them locked up,
I keep them away from all of you. I can
speak to how they are looking at you as prey,
(50:31):
how they are picking children, how they're standing outside of
schoolyards hoping that somebody does something on the monkey bars.
That's stimulating to them.
Speaker 3 (50:41):
You know.
Speaker 1 (50:41):
They take this masturbatory stimulation from images on the internet
that you're providing from kids they see in grocery stores everywhere.
They take it home. They masturbate. What's next. The next
thing is that they want a real life child, They
want to do it, and then they focus on getting one.
Speaker 2 (51:03):
Yeah, that's and I'm glad that these videos that you're
doing are going viral because really I know people that
do this all the time, and you know what, I'm like,
shout out to my mom. She's been on this from
day one, which and she isn't in any field or
anything like that. She just always would be like so
(51:23):
and so is posting pictures of their kids, like in
their bathing suit and in their in their dance class
and this and that, and it is it is interesting
that my mom would always just be like, I think
that somebody's going to be a pervert and look at this,
like you shouldn't post pictures like that. And I think
this is a.
Speaker 3 (51:41):
Really important conversation to have because we're often talking about
safety on the show with you know, so everyone I
know that's just bought a house posts the front of
their house with their address, and all you have to
do is screenshot at Google re versus and it's right
there on Zilo right, So I think it's dumb. We've
also recently talked about how people are live posting when
they're on vacation, and it just it's either like you're
(52:03):
not at home so I could rob you, or I
could follow where you are. I know exactly where you are.
But as somebody that's like, you know, thinking about hopefully
going into motherhood soon and everything, I do think these
videos are important because I'm sitting here questioning am I
gonna upload any pictures of my children on the internet,
because I feel it is so unsafe anymore in this environment,
(52:25):
and everyone is refusing to accept that because it doesn't
fit their perfect little Facebook page with their perfect little
family photos. I think it's not smart to show kids'
faces anymore.
Speaker 1 (52:36):
And you know, I hate to say it. You know
I would post my kids on my private account all
the time, and I only had like a handful of
a few hundred friends followers. Everyone I knew, everyone I
had spent time with. One of the guys is in
prison for loot and Lusavia's acts against a twelve year
old and I he liked every single picture of my
daughter I posted. I knew him. I worked with him
(52:59):
day in and day out four years, and I didn't
know it like I. That horrified me. So you've got
that aspect, then you've also got you know, hackers can
see your private accounts. They can access your accounts and
get images of your children, even if your account is
set to private. It's not common, but it only takes
(53:20):
one time. Yeah, you know, ude, it only takes one
time for that to be morphed into some kind of
deep fake on AI and put on porn hub. And
now you're sixteen year old. Now you're I don't know,
a ten year old looks like she's in a sex tape.
That's what's happening.
Speaker 3 (53:38):
It's really horrible. I mean, we even had a story
a couple months ago where they were considering making child
size sex dolls for pedophiles to use, and how horrific, Like,
in my mind, that's a horrific idea because they're always
going to want to escalate from that exactly, And some
dumb fucking politician was trying to push that forward, saying
(53:59):
that that would that.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
Lady so bad. Yes, it was like like it's going
to appease them. No, it's not. Hello, look at Sean
Coln's nothing appeased as a sex drive. It builds it,
it grows it. They hone their interest, they hone their crime,
just like a serial killer. They get cleaner, they get
better at it, they streamline what they want to do.
Speaker 3 (54:19):
Well, how do you feel about people using the term
maps to try to make pedophilia sound better?
Speaker 1 (54:26):
Well, I mean some of it, some of it I understand,
like we want to be able to say these things
so that we can say it on social media and
people can learn, So there's a positive side to it. Also,
the people who are like super rigid about diagnosing pedophilia
has very specific criteria, right, So it has to be
(54:48):
a pre pubescent child, there has to be a theme,
it has to be six months. And so if we
want to get away from the very uh rigid criteria
of pedophilia, I don't. We do need other terms, right,
we need, but what we need to say is a
paraphilic disorder. We need to say that somebody is a
(55:10):
predator towards the youth, right, we can't make it sound nicer.
Speaker 3 (55:17):
Yeah, that's my problem with it because you know, we
have somebody we know in our life that truly thinks
that's a way to put it, because she believes it's
a sexual preference, which extremely is bothersome to me because
to me, it's like, why are we sugarcoating what it is?
Because when we stop addressing it like it's something that's bad,
(55:38):
that's when it starts becoming something that's more acceptable and
our kids get hurt more. And I just can't be
okay with that.
Speaker 2 (55:45):
You know, Well, I think it could be both like
it is it is. I think that more people need
to realize that it is a sexual preference. So like
the way I want to have sex with my husband,
like these people feel like they want to have sex
with children, Right, It's kind of it's kind of like
an attraction, but it's not like it's not good. It's
(56:06):
nothing that we should ever try to be like, oh, well,
they're sick. It's kind of I don't know, like I
look at it like they're sick and they need to
be eliminated off the planet kind of thing, because I
just I can't tolerate that. But I think it could
be both.
Speaker 1 (56:20):
Yeah, I wouldn't say it's a like a sexual preference, though,
because that implies positivity and choice. I think it's a
pathologically deviant, disturbing, sadistic form of stimulation and entertainment for
individuals who are sick in the head, right, And so
(56:40):
that's what I do a lot when I testify to
juries is yeah, lawyers, lawyers are bashful when it comes
to a grown male's erect penis went into a two
year old vagina and led to this tearing. And here's
the imagery, and let's talk about what like, lawyers get
bashful a lot of the time, and they don't want
then they don't want the jury to hear that. But
the reality is that these are sadistic, fucking crimes. They
(57:04):
are horrifying, and they are brutalizing children. And the images
of the children after these men have harmed them, I'll
never get them out of my mind. I never want
anyone to ever have to endure that, to find their
child like that, to sit through a court case having
to talk about this and see these images. Why not
(57:26):
just prevent it? Is there?
Speaker 2 (57:28):
Do you think that there's a way, Like, so you're
saying it's not a sexual preference, So so is there
a way that these people have like they're married and
they have like normal kind of sex lives with I
don't want to say normal, but they have like a
normal kind of sex life with their husband their wife.
And then yeah, and then is that what you're saying
(57:50):
that they could like have that, but then they also
just have this deviant behavior as well, Like it's like
are they are if they're attracted? I want to do
this to children, like do they have attraction towards adults too?
Speaker 1 (58:03):
Or no?
Speaker 2 (58:05):
Do they enjoy having normal, like like adult sex.
Speaker 1 (58:11):
I think they. I think there's a beginning to it
where there's a confusion. You know, I have these desires,
do I act on them? Because they are illegal and
horrendous and so there is an element where it becomes
a choice. They choose to act on the disordered thinking.
I like to I like to explain it like a
(58:35):
grown man has a grown man's sex drive, but an
attraction emotionally and intellectually to a child. So you know,
what is what is it like talking to a six
year old right or a four year old? They're really
they make you feel good, They're really happy. You know
that they're happy little beings and they think you're funny,
(58:56):
and you can do very little to make them a gigle. Right,
That's what the pedophile is misconstruing as this child is
interested in me, and then they're overlaying now with this
adult sex drive and deluding it to think like, okay,
they want me to have sex with them.
Speaker 2 (59:16):
Do you think that there's any like this is your
honest opinion, Like, do you think that there's a way
to fix these peoples that thought that's in their head
that makes them act on that.
Speaker 1 (59:28):
Consequences? I think keeping them away from what they want
is the only thing that we can do.
Speaker 2 (59:36):
Because that's I mean, that's scary because when someone gets
accused of it, obviously they don't really a lot of
them don't get that much punishment, and they are able
to do it again. So what's the solution Just to
put them on an island somewhere where they just can
never have I mean, it's just.
Speaker 1 (59:56):
Well, people like to make fun of California, of course
everyone does, But in California, we have a Welfare and
Institution Code where sexually violent predators are held as patients.
They are held they're civilly committed, and they're held in
a place called coalinga state hospital and other places. But
(01:00:17):
the whole thing with that is that unless they engage
in treatment in a meaningful way and change is seen,
they can't get out. So they don't have a prison time.
There's no clock ticking. It's a life sentence unless they,
as a patient improve and no one does. So we're
(01:00:38):
not killing them all. We can't. Right in California, I
think we figured out a pretty good way to lock
them up for life.
Speaker 3 (01:00:46):
That is really interesting. I was going to make a
bad joke that was like, that's how we should have
transformed Pedophile Island, perhaps instead of another hotel conglomerate buying
it to make your resort on. But I think that's
really interesting you guys do that in California because we're
always talking about how, you know, these people get convicted
of these horrific rapes and they're only going to jail
(01:01:06):
for four years, and we always are arguing that that's
just as bad as killing somebody. You're taking their entire
life emotionally, and there's only so much work a victim
could do to get over that, and a lot of
victims are able to move forward and everything, but it's
still always there, so why aren't these people getting convicted
as such?
Speaker 1 (01:01:25):
Right? And so, like, you know, I have a case
right now of a very similar case. Will he become
a sexually violent predator or not? It takes extensive psychological testing,
so much collateral information. How is he in group therapy
when he's in the state hospital? Is he engaging in
a meaningful way? How do you gauge that? Like, there's
(01:01:47):
so many different components. What's their violence, what's their sexual
violence recidivism rate? We use all these statistics. There's so
much that goes into it. But when you just lock
a guy up with the sentence and then he gets
out and has to register as a sex offender, I
don't think it's enough.
Speaker 3 (01:02:03):
No, I agree one hundred.
Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
Do they when you talk to them, do they feel
bad about this about themselves? Do they wish they weren't
like this? Or do they not think that there's anything
wrong with it?
Speaker 1 (01:02:19):
I think I'm I'm biased because I do work with
the most severe, But I think there are individuals early
on who still have that insight and that cognitive dissonance
where they know it's wrong and they don't want to
have this this drive, and they if they do act
(01:02:42):
on it. Sometimes there is a bit of remorse, but
usually it is so exhilarating for them that they continue
to act on it, and they lack insight, they lack remorse,
they lack the ability to do they don't care for
the most part. But there's that small percentage people message
me on Instagram or even TikTok just saying, like, you know,
(01:03:05):
I really like anime, I really like the youthful characters
in anime. Does that mean I'm in danger of being
a pedophile? And my response is always go see a therapist.
You know, I'm not your therapist. If you're questioning if
you're going to be a pedophile, go see a therapist,
get help, get support, prevent it. And it's wonderful that
(01:03:27):
they are even questioning it because maybe we have a
chance at intervention at that point before it becomes an
all encompassed view of sexuality for them.
Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
Yeah, it's it's kind of cool that people feel comfortable.
I mean, they should get a therapist, but it's cool
that they feel comfortable like emailing you to question something
that they feel they may not have ever thought of
if you didn't bring it up.
Speaker 1 (01:03:52):
I know, I get so much hate, but also I'm
actually quite helpful. Guys.
Speaker 3 (01:03:58):
You have an awesome sweatshirt too that says I'm not
your fucking therapist, which.
Speaker 1 (01:04:02):
Is yeah, that's my liability.
Speaker 3 (01:04:05):
No, that's it's an awesome sweatshirt. It's like a beautiful
black sweashirt with this hot pink writing. It's very dainty, bright,
and I love it.
Speaker 2 (01:04:12):
Yeah, no, it's so great.
Speaker 3 (01:04:14):
Well, on this dark note, I guess it's doctor Leslie.
Please tell everybody where.
Speaker 1 (01:04:19):
They could find you. Oh gosh, I'm everywhere. So doctor
Leslie Dobson mostly on Instagram and TikTok is kind of
where I put my efforts in where I will respond
to your messages and comments. My website is doctor Leslie
Doobson dot com. If you need me as an expert,
as an expert witness, you can reach out that way.
(01:04:40):
And then I have a group of assistants that will
respond to you. You know, I do get a lot
of crazy messages, so there's a team behind me. And
then the new podcast is intentionally disturbing with iHeartRadio and
that's everywhere you listen to podcasts, right, I don't really
even know. And on my YouTube if you want to
(01:05:01):
see the people I'm talking to.
Speaker 3 (01:05:04):
Thank you so much for coming on. This is an
awesome conversation. I think our listeners are really gonna love it.
Speaker 2 (01:05:09):
Yeah, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (01:05:10):
Thanks for having me. I'm glad we we covered quite
an array of topics.
Speaker 2 (01:05:19):
Thank you for listening to Mother nos Death. As a reminder,
my training is as a pathologists assistant. I have a
master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education.
I am not a doctor and I have not diagnosed
or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of
a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, and social
(01:05:43):
media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based
on my experience working in pathology, so they can make
healthier decisions regarding their life and well being. Always remember
that science is changing every day and the opinions expressed
in this episode are based on my knowledge of those
subjects at the time of publication. If you are having
(01:06:05):
a medical problem, have a medical question, or having a
medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit an urgent
care center, emergency room, or hospital. Please rate, review, and
subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or
anywhere you get podcasts.
Speaker 1 (01:06:25):
Thanks
Elvis Duran and the Morning Show ON DEMAND News
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.