Today, we are joined by Body Bags host Joseph Scott Morgan to discuss the latest news stories! We get into Joseph's opinion on the Ellen Greenberg case, updates on a fashion billionaire's death, a school employee killed by a student, and a teen who killed his mother's boyfriend and put his brains in a blender.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Mother Knows Death starring Nicole and Jemmy and Maria qk.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hi. Everyone, welcome The Mother Knows Death.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
In addition to the news stories we will be discussing
on today's episode, we also want to welcome back our
friend and host of Body Bags podcast, Joseph Scott Morgan.
You may know Joseph from his frequent appearances on Crime
Stories with Nancy Grace, Court TV and other major news outlets,
or as the author of Blood Beneath My Feet, The
(00:43):
Journey of a Southern Death Investigator. Joseph holds the Masters
of Forensics degree from National University and is a Board
Certified Fellow of the American Board of Medical Legal Death Investigators. Currently,
he is an Associate Professor of Applied Forensics at Jacksonville
State University in Alabama. Joseph started working in forensics in
(01:06):
the eighties, and throughout his career he has been involved
in thousands of medical legal death investigations and autopsies. Hi, Joseph,
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Hey y'all, how are you doing. Thanks for having me back.
I've been hoping I could get back with you guys,
and here I am.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Thanks for being here. We love having you on and
so do our listeners. They're always just like.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
You know that guy.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
I speak.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
I'm like, I'm like, yeah, he was on TMZ this week,
and you know he was on there for good reasons.
Usually people are on there for scandalous reasons, and you
just your face was all over the internet.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Yeah, this one. You know, I don't I don't really
do TikTok that. I can't figure it out. My daughter,
my daughter, My daughter reached out to me though, and
she was like, she calls me Jofas. She was like, Joevish,
you're everywhere. I was like, well, yeah, I am, thanks
to Harvey and so yeah, yeah, I was. I was.
(02:09):
I was floating about and before that, I think it
was Pierce Morgan.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Uh oh, yeah, that was cool too.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Yeah. I did the thing regarding Charlie Kirk's homicide, so yeah,
and caught a lot of flak over that. So because
I you know, I don't like to use the assassination word.
It's one of the one of the problems we got
into with Kennedy. Uh. If they just straight up worked
it as a homicide, Uh, it lends itself, that lends
(02:39):
itself clinically to you clarity, right, when you stick with
the science, and unfortunately you get off on all these
rabbit trails and a lot of stuff that they were
saying early on turns out to not be true now,
so yeah, yeah, surprise, surprise. So people have a lot
of spare time on their hands. But yeah, you got
(03:00):
to look at it, let them work the case.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Yeah, I know that case is really interesting to me.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Of course, it's always compared to the Kennedy assassination, but
it's just so much different because there's so many different
angles of film and witnesses and higher death. It's just
not the zap Ruder film that you're going by frame
by frame, and and you have social media, and don't
you wonder how different it would be if this Kennedy
(03:28):
back then.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Yeah, I keep hoping, you know, someday I did a
big piece on while I've done several particularly on the
anniversary of the assassination sixty year back in twenty three,
and talked about it extensively on a couple of podcasts,
even Take Something with Fox and wound up getting shelved.
(03:49):
But yeah, and you know, so many things went wrong
with Kennedy and I don't want to necessarily again get
off on a go down a rabbit trail with you guys.
But just from a pathology standpoint, people don't really realize
(04:09):
with Kennedy, the first true medical examiner that Dallas ever had,
had just been hired and he was literally standing in
the hallway at Parkland protesting that the body should not
be removed. Doctor Earl Rose, if you get a chance,
check him out. Pretty amazing guy, originally from Iowa and
(04:32):
for his day and time, and he was actually one
of the first people, kind of in that early generation,
the first people that actually were boarded in forensic pathology.
And instead of him doing an examination who had extensive
experience with ballistics, they take the President's body and take
(04:57):
it away and arguably put it into the hands of
two of the most inept pathologists you could ever find
that had never done a forensic autopsy at all. And
so here we are today, all these years later, and
you know, reflecting on Charlie Kirk from that perspective, for me,
(05:18):
is very important to remember that Charlie went to one
of the best state medical examiner offices in the nation
in Utah, and you had a lot of eyes on
his case at that particular time, highly qualified people my stock,
their stock went up with me. And you guys might
(05:39):
find this interesting with the Tammy Dabll case because when
Tammy was buried, she was buried in Utah that had
again an order of exhamation, and they really took their
time with her case because there was you know, a
lot to go over that were missing a lot of things,
and luckily it did stay in Idaho. Her case didn't.
(06:02):
She was buried in Utah and that office you know,
went forward with the exhamation and did a bang a
job relative to her examination. I think the same is
going to apply with Charlie. This is an act of
an active homicide investigation. So for people that are sitting
around hoping that they're going to be getting a lot
(06:22):
of information and not this guy that's accused, you know,
they're going to try to strap him to a chair
and shooting capital punishment. The prosecutor's already said that. So
you know, people can stir the mud all they want to,
you know, muck up the waters if they want to,
but the truth will eventually come out.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
This is a good point that you're bringing up, kind
of and we could go back to the TMZ article
and why you went viral this week in regards to
Ellen Greenberg, we could just talk about that a little
bit before we start the new stories of this week.
But I do I personally know the medical examiner some
(07:05):
of them involved with this case, because obviously I did
my rotations through the Philly mme's office, and I do,
to a certain extent, feel bad that they have to
conduct investigations in this kind of a world now where
everyone's an investigator on social media and just ripping through
(07:25):
the case and maybe not either knowing all the details
or just not even have really examined the body to say,
you know, exactly what happens. So this case, however, is outrageous.
So Ray, why don't you just briefly talk about her
case for a second, just for those who are unfamiliar.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
For Ellen Greenberg.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Yeah, so she was a teacher that this is back
in Philadelphia in two thousand and eleven.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
It was twenty eleven. We talked about this last week
with Jackline too, you know, just going over the basics
of the case, where it was a snow day sent
home from school. She was there with her fiance. He
claims he went to the gym, came back and found
her stabbed to death, and it's just such an unusual
story because it had been determined it as a homicide
(08:16):
and then switched to suicide. Now they've confirmed it to suicide,
and there's just a lot of outrage about that report
that just came out last week.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
So, Joseph your thoughts.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Well, from an administrative standpoint, it's a total train wreck.
This is not the way a medical examiner's office should
be managed, because you know, even in the world priort.
You know, when when Ellen's death ocurred, we were not
as married to social media as we are now. And
(08:55):
I'm not saying it was done in a total vacuum. However,
we have to since that period of time, things have
changed considerably. And then when people take a look at
Allen's case and begin to kind of pick it apart
and see administratively, how many changes took place. I don't
know if Joe talked about this, By the way, one
of my favorite people, Joe, He's a fantastic guy. One
(09:21):
of the things that really struck me was the fact
that they had initially come out with suicide, I mean,
with homicide ruling, and then following this meeting that Osborne
was brought into with the prosecutor and the police. Suddenly
he has a change of heart, changes the manner of
(09:45):
debt the suicide. I've worked a lot of cases over
the course of my career where I had cases that
were initially suicide and then changed the homicide. I don't
remember any case that I had that was initially ruled
a homicide and then went to suicide. And we have
(10:05):
to also remember that for a while they teased out
the idea that they were going to make this an
undetermined They played around with that too. So, guys, we've
only got five minutes of death to choose from, and
you've gone through three of them. This is this is
not an organization I'd have a lot of confidence in
(10:27):
I think, you know, thinking about that, you know, administratively,
I'm not talking about from a practitioner standpoint. I'm talking
about just administratively. You know, how do you leap frog
from these things back and forth and the vacillation that
takes that has taken place with it, so it doesn't
doesn't go a long way to give confidence, I think
(10:51):
to too many people. Uh, you know, anytime you kind
of change change in midstream like this, and such a
and over the top case. I was talking to somebody
the other Day'll just okay, if we had never heard
of Ellen Greenberg, all right, from a media perspective, and
(11:16):
you're in the world of forensic pathology and you work
this case. This is the kind of case that if
you went to a scientific meeting, you know, you can
go to the American Academy of Forensic Science meeting in
the pathology section, and you've got a forensic pathologist that says,
(11:38):
you know, says in the you know, in the in
the program, I'm going to be talking about a case
involving a suicide where an individual has sustained twenty plus
you know, short force injuries. It'd be a packed house
because this is rare's hens teeth. It just doesn't have happened,
(12:00):
you know. I Self inflicted stabbings don't happen very very often.
And in my in just in my experience, I've got
a very small piece of the pie. All right. Here,
there's people that have different experiences all over, But in
my time in New Orleans and Atlanta work too, I
think with a knife. And one of those was a
(12:21):
paranoid schotzphrontic guy that thought he had a microphone in
his forearm, and I've told the story before, people will
have heard it. And he just kind of took a
filet knife and car. I think it was over thirty
individual in sized areas where he was just digging through,
digging through his arm to look for a microphone because
(12:42):
he thought the CIA had put it in. That's not
really suicide, right, you know. The other was a case
of it was an abdominal stable. And there may have
been two. We're talking twenty. We're talking twenty that are
in these kind of desperately different areas. One thing that
(13:04):
really never comes up, you know. You see that that
animation that uh that rendering of of of Ellen, and
I urge anybody go look at it. The attitude of
the blade actually changes in this the You've got different tracks.
(13:27):
They track in different directions. You've got some that are
uh uh more at an angle uh from left to right.
You've got some in the vertical plane that are going
from above to below, from below to above, from straight on.
And the blade itself actually turns. You can see the
(13:48):
attitude of the scene with the insult as it goes
into the body. It will have rotated multiple times. It
was just very very strange to me that that this
could be accomplished by one person and some of them.
You know, admittedly, some of these insults that she sustained
(14:09):
were superficial. Someone says, well, those are, and I think
the latest report she classified those as hesitations, and generally
with hesitations with sharp force injuries. You're thinking about the
cutting of the neck and the cutting of a wrist
(14:30):
with hesitations. Okay, I've never heard of stabbings detailed that
way as hesitations, and which was kind of odd to me.
It's kind of odd phraseology, I don't know, very peculiar.
And you know, she admitted that she discovered more stepwoots,
(14:53):
more stab woings upon her review of the case, and
more contusions she's got. You know, Ellen had this this
really kind of profound contusion on the anterior neck. You know,
if you look at it very closely, almost looks like
(15:13):
a hand. Perhaps impossible to marry that up. But she
had also contusions over multiple locations of her body. I
asked Josh and Sandy early on the Parents, you know,
talking about this case when I was on air with
Nancy Grace said, does she have any kind of equilibrium
(15:35):
issues at all because you know, one of the things
that we do in medical legal debt investigation, if we've
got unexplained injuries, there has to be a scientific explanation
for them, right. I want to know if she had
a big question. I wonder if she had problem with
clotting at all. I want to know if she had
equilibrium issues where like maybe she's unsteady gait, she's bouncing
(15:56):
into walls, you know, bumping into furniture. I wanted to
know if she had drug or alcohol problem. It was
like no, no, no, no, you know. And and that
was a couple of years ago when I first asked
them about that, because they did just know this stuff
really married up and and with contusions in particular, you know,
(16:22):
I want to know what what the status of resolve
was on each one of those. You know, how far
down the down down the road to healing are we
were each one of those contusions insized to get an
idea the level of resolve. So I don't know it
(16:46):
just the whole thing, to me from a medical legal
perspective was just bizarre. Uh, everything from the administrative stuff
to I think and I can't remember, forgive me, I
can't I remember this renowned neuropathologist, Lucy Oh, doctor Rourke. Yeah, yeah,
(17:07):
I mean out of all the people in the world,
out of all the people in the world that you
could say that you've turned tissues over to. And actually
it wasn't just like passively stated in the report. It
was like Osborne saying, a hand delivered this to her,
and you got Lucy Rourke saying, I don't have any
(17:28):
record of this. I'm seeing this.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
I'll tell you.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
I have a theory about that, actually, because I was
at that office around that time period for months and
I know how things roll there, and I also rotated,
so it was the main office was located in West Philly,
and it was in a walking distance of Children's Hospital
and University of Penn, So I was rotating at all
(17:52):
three of those places within the year, and oftentimes if
they wanted to have a neuro path console, they were
able to just walk over to Chop and show Lucy
she was there.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
I met her. She's an amazing woman. Yeah, just awesome.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
So I have a feeling that Marlin, possibly he could
have just totally fudged it, of course, but I also
have a feeling that it's possible that he just walked
over there and said can I show you something? And
that was it. It wasn't like a formal consul. And that's
just one possibility. But I think obviously the big problem
(18:34):
we talked with Joe Jacqueline about was the police investigation
part of it that was completely botched. But also just
think about from a medical examiner's perspective. I knew Marlon
when he was a resident, and I wouldn't say that
he was like a shining star of a.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Doctor, so he gets the case.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
I mean, can some of this be too that there's
just comp like you were saying with JFK, like an
inexperienced person was looking at the autopsy from the beginning.
So now when everybody goes back, including Lindsay, who was
also a resident under me, and she was probably in
her twenties when this happened, she was a resident, she
(19:17):
she wasn't even an attending yet, Like, how are you
supposed to go back and all you have now is
just photographs and they might not even be good photographs because.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Yeah, you're you know, because I've been Lord knows, I've
had to take a look at photos from not just
autopsies from crom saying, so you look at this and you're, yeah,
what what is this? You know, and and particularly when
you're on the the when you're on the technical level,
that path assistance and pathologist are on uh, and you're
(19:55):
lacking clarity and that from a clinical perspective, that's a
train wreck waiting to happen, and you're having to breathe
life back into the scene that occurred. You know how
many other cases have they worked in Philly since that
point in time? I don't know. There's not enough numbers
to count. And yeah, and I don't know if it
(20:18):
was I don't know if it was a perfect storm.
I do really take exception with the idea that he
would walk into a room with police and in a
DA and they're not be a written record of this.
You know what was truly communicated at that point in time. Well,
we're gonna we're going to urge you, I guess, I
(20:42):
don't know, you know who knows what was actually passed
between though, to change this ruling. You understand me, doctor,
We're going to change the ruling. You're going to change
the ruling. And you know, you get hung on that
and you think, wow, that's that's really kind of sinister,
you know when you think about it, because in our world,
I don't. It's not that I don't want to be
(21:03):
associated with police officers, teach cops, you know, love cops,
all right. However, we're an independent voice, you know, we're
you know, I don't. I don't. I'm not. I'm not
in the business of and people take exception me saying this.
I'm not in the business of trying to find justice. Okay,
I'm I want scientific truth. That's enough on my plate.
(21:28):
Let the courts handle the justice part, and the defense
and the prosecution handled justice part. We're not in that business,
all right. We're here to have scientific truth. What is
it that suddenly compelled you to change this ruling from
a hobbicide, which at its basic definition is defined as
(21:51):
death at the hand of another What is it that
got you off of that point to where you're going
to change this to suicide. Now, I would be much
more in clon to say, yeah, you know, well, I'll
roll with undetermined. You know, I'll roll with undetermined at
(22:13):
this point. But that's a big leap. That's a big
leap to say that you know, this didn't, this wasn't
at her own hand, this was, uh, at someone else's hand,
and then go back and say that it was at
her hand over and over and over again.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
It's it's just a very difficult case because there are
there are some if you, I think that a lot
of times when we're talking about this case, we just
leave out all of the things that other things that
were going on, especially psych things that seem to have
been going on. And like you were saying, she has bruises,
and that might very well be possible and even potentially
(22:54):
a sign of abuse. But uh, you know, from the
parents perspective, from every one's perspective, it seemed like they
had a good relationship, although obviously people in abusive relationships
hide that from their loved ones all the time. But
I personally didn't think that they did have a good
relationship because you know, at the time, I was a
(23:15):
woman her age, and I would never call my parents
being with my husband or my fiance at the time
and saying that I wanted to move home because I
was upset about my teaching job. You want to be
with you just want to be with your partner, And
the fact that she wanted to move home makes me
think that things weren't good with him, And then I
(23:37):
thought it was super super weird that she went to
a psychiatrist three times in one week. Unless I don't know,
if they're wealthy and they could just afford to do that.
I just feel like regular people don't have access to
a psychiatrist like that unless they're in a crisis.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Yeah. Yeah, and maybe if he hit a critical mass.
I don't know. And there's been a lot made of
things on the h on her vanity in the bathroom
where there was packing going on, and people had talked
about that as well. I think that there's one image
of that floating around out there somewhere where you know,
there's like makeup and all the essentials that ladies need,
(24:17):
you know, when they're leaving, that that was there in place.
I thought that that was kind of interesting as well.
It's certainly something that you know, we would have made
note of. And I'm not saying the Emmy investigator didn't
do a good job at the scene. I think they
did actually a very good job, because their their report
(24:39):
is contained within it's contained within that trunch of documents
that came from the Emmy. I do take exception to
the fact that it seems as though the police were
predisposed to just being suicide at that moment. Tom and
(25:02):
the adages. Uh, you know, every death is a homicide
until proven otherwise. Well, what what proof did you have
at the scene at that moment time that this was
in fact suicide? When you've got this over the top
number of insults to her body, shouldn't give it a pause?
(25:22):
You know, the next day, if I'm remembering correctly, the
scene had already been released.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Oh yeah, they cleaned it up.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Yeah yeah. And that that to me was really bizarre. Uh,
that they were allowed to have access. I think uh,
I think Ellen's uh laptop was removed, you know from scene,
and other items that you know could hold clues perhaps
(25:56):
you know, to state of mind, those sorts of things,
and you know who you know, once something has been
removed from a scene, see, obviously it goes without staying saying,
but it's no longer pristine at that point in Tom,
you have to treat it. I don't care how long
it takes. I don't care what kind of level of
inconvenience it causes somebody. You can't get a suit for
(26:16):
a funeral, I don't know, you know, there's always target.
I don't know what to tell you, because your needs
at that moment in time to have access to personal
items are trumped by the need to perform a thorough investigation.
So it's again, you know, I come back to the
(26:42):
level of trauma she had sustained, and it's so glaring
to me also that you know, I don't know. I'd
love to hear your thoughts on this biomechanically. Do you
think it's even plausible that she could have self inflicted
this many wounds posteriorly? That's one of the things that
(27:06):
you know that has always struck me about this be
able to reach back and facilitate this with this particular knife.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
Well, one of the one of the most because a
lot of the posterior wounds were very superficial. And one
of the one that has been going around that was
that they were saying she would not been able to
stab herself because it nicked. I know that one report
said it nicked a dora matter, but the other one
(27:36):
said that it partially at least put an incision into it.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
But then when I.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
Read the report of that, they said that there was
no hemorrhage around that, so they were saying something about her.
She was already dead at that point. Is it possible,
I'm just putting this out there that that was just
purely an incision made by a scalpabla at this section?
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Oh wow, you know I have not had anybody say
that to this point when and I can't forgive me,
I can't remember the lady's name that you know that
reveals this in this this deposition. I think you referenced
her earlier.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
There's two Lindsay's. So Lindsay Simon is the.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
Current medical experimenter and this was this was revealed by
the other Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Yeah, the neuropath, which she didn't generate a report on.
Apparently that this came out during the deposition. I do
know that. And and she in her statement she's kind
of watling on it. You know, could be this could
be that. So that's not necessarily absolutely positively definitive. Could
(28:47):
it have been nicked at post? Perhaps perhaps it could
have been, you know, and again giving her the benefit
of the doubt, she's looking at these tissues now several
years stamp range from this. Now she's not physically present
for the post. That's it again. This goes back to
(29:08):
an administrative issue, you know.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
So a another thing that I want to say is
that it appears that everything first she stabbed, she stabbed herself,
or she was stabbed in the back posteriorly obviously they said,
Now again this could be wrong too, but the fatal
wound was in the heart, and the knife was in
the heart, so that had to be the last one. Yes,
(29:34):
So if that was true, then you're saying that the
wound in the back, she was already dead. So then
she would have had to someone herself, or someone would
have had to restab her in the back, or anyone would.
And I just think even if it was a homicide
or so obviously if it's a suicide, she wouldn't be
able to do it because she was already dead. But
if it was a homicide, it would be weird to
(29:55):
stab someone in the back a lot, a bunch of
times and then go around the front and and go
to the back again.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Yeah. Yeah, And you've got a lot of movement, a
lot of repositioning. The blood doesn't really extend out any
further than away from that particular station where she was
at the sink. Another uh, you know, odd thing. You know,
she's obviously cutting up fruit, you know, at that at
that position, in order to prepare like fruit salad or
(30:22):
whatever it was she was doing, and she suddenly has
the urge at that moment Tom to take a knife
and self inflict while she's cutting up fruit, you know,
you know, at the kitchen counter. Kind of odd.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
Did they ever consult any psychiatrists about the interaction with
because in that period of time when she had seen
the psychiatrist, I feel like she was she was given
zole off and obviously, like that takes two weeks to work,
and it didn't work quick enough, so then they gave
her xanax, and then she was getting ambying and all.
(31:00):
Did you did they ever talk to anybody to see
if those drug interactions can cause like an acute psychosis
or something.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
I don't know. That is a fantastic question. Now, are
you asking that from the perspective of family or from
UH from the medical legal perspective, because I don't have
an answer for either one of those. I don't know
that the Greenberg's consulted consulted UH somebody that deals in psychopharmacology,
(31:31):
you know, that could give definitive answers about that.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
UH.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
I do know that with certain of these meds, and
it's a it's a real cocktail too, isn't it. You know,
you've got all of the stuff interacting with one another.
I know sometimes you can have people that will have
a break mentally. You know in that you know, and
you you you made the point relative to the zillof
(31:57):
that it does you have to build build that particular
medication in your system for it to begin to work effectively.
I don't have an answer to that, I really don't.
I don't know that they did, and I don't know
that the medical examiner did either. I would imagine that
(32:20):
if this case does in fact move forward in any
civil civil manner, that we're going to hear more about
psychopharmic collegy here though.
Speaker 4 (32:34):
There's another detail from that day I don't think a
lot of people talk about, which is that she called
all of her students' families to make sure they all
got home from school that day, okay, because.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
It was snowing.
Speaker 4 (32:47):
And while that is a sweet gesture, I think it's
kind of unusual.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
I don't know, you know, I talked to Kim, my wife,
who's a retired school teacher, about that particularly and she
she just had you know, I don't know that it's anecdotal,
but you know, she had said that in the past.
You know, in South we don't get much much snow
down down down this way. We do have ice storms,
so and actually I think they're worse than snowstorms many times,
(33:15):
particularly for us that are so handicapped in driving on
any in the South, on any kind of icy surface.
And my wife did say that she had called in
the past, she had a list of student phone numbers, family,
you know, contact information to make sure their kids, you know,
made it home. She had done that in past, particularly
(33:37):
when she was not so much in middle school, but
when she was at the elementary school level, very early
in her career. I do remember having a you know,
you know what my wife and I talked about relative
to this side, I don't know, but uh, you know,
I don't I don't know that that's unreasonable, particularly if
you've got a teacher that's really kind of married to
(33:59):
these kids. She's worried about them, you know, and from
all accounts, you know, she's a pretty good teacher. I
think I haven't heard anybody cast dispersions upon her abilities
as a teacher. From a parental standpoint, you know, she
hor horrible teacher. Wish our kids hadn't been with her.
There's always some of that that goes on in public education.
But you know, yeah, it is a sweet move. But
(34:23):
I also think that, you know, she could be concerned
about our students' welfare as well. And again, you know,
when you're kind of breaking down suicides, that's one of
the things that you look at. Or these behavioral connections
are observable behaviors, you know, how are they manifesting in
(34:44):
a person's life that may have made a choice at
that point in time to end their life. Doesn't necessarily
seem like something that they would do. Someone else might
argue the fact that, well, she's closing all accounts at
that point in time, if she was, in fact so subtle,
So it can be argued both ways.
Speaker 4 (35:02):
I think, yeah, that's interesting to hear because I just
I definitely can pull it back and say that's really
awesome of her and really sweet. But I was thinking
about it with you know, all the medication she was on,
her wanting to quit her job, her wanting to move
out of her house and move in with her parents,
and I just thought it was something that stood out
to me.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
See, it's weird to us because we're from Philly and
we're not nice people. People from the South are very
they're nice and they would do something like that, but
in Philly, it's just it's unusual for a phil We
just like, just like my kids the other day were like,
I was out front and someone just said hi to me,
and I'm just like, yeah, that's they're just being nice.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
They're just saying hi. That that happens, It does in
fact happen.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
And just keep in mind with people in the South
will be very nice to you to your face, all right,
but they're going to talk about you after you walk away.
The cool thing about people in Philly is that if
they want you to go to hell, they're gonna tell
you to get hell to your face. And then there's
no lack of clarity there with the instructions. You know
where you stand all right. In South, you know it
could be questionable.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
It's so true.
Speaker 4 (36:09):
We always talk about this because me and my husband
go to Tennessee a lot and people are always like.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Hi, how you do it? And We're like, what's your ankle?
What do you want?
Speaker 1 (36:17):
What are you trying to get out of me. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4 (36:27):
This episode is brought to you by the Grossroom.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Guys.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
This week's high profile death dissection in the Grosser Room
is on a really interesting case that was presented on
the show Unsolved Mysteries, and in keeping up with our
Halloween theme, we thought what better than a human head
that was found in a wooded area. This case is
super interesting because it's not quite solved yet and it
(36:52):
may not even be a homicide case, So check that
out and we would love to know your thoughts on that.
One of the best parts of the case that many
people describe is that it almost I mean, if finding
a head in the woods is disturbing enough, but it
also has what people have said is a tiger king
like twist in the middle of the story, because you're
(37:15):
just like, is this how people are living right now?
I don't know, it's just it's really nuts. We also
have a really cool case of oh it wasn't cool
for them, but arts and craft projects that have gone wrong.
So all that and more in the gross Room. You
could get in for five ninety nine a month.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
Head over to the Grossroom dot com now to sign up.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
All right, let's move on to some of the stories
going on in the news this week. So the story
about this this Mango founder, I'm curious of your thoughts
of this.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
You want to.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
Talk about it a little bit, Yeah, right, yeah, Race,
talk about.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
It a little bit, just for anyone that's unfamiliar.
Speaker 4 (37:56):
Well, our listeners might remember we covered this case back
in December four where this guy had died and at first, initially,
initially investigator thought it was an accident. So he was
the founder of Mango. His name's Isaac andck. They thought
that he felt three hundred and twenty feet to his
death during a hike with his son and it was accidental.
But now they're investigating the sun for a potential homicide.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
Joseph, how I mean this guy fell equivalent to a
thirty story building over three hundred feet yep. I know,
if people fall from a shorter distance, there might be
a way to be able to tell if they were
if they fell over unexpectedly versus they intentionally jumped or something.
But I mean, if there were no cameras present, how
(38:42):
would this homicide investigation go down?
Speaker 1 (38:45):
I don't know. It has to be some kind of
circumstantial data that would come in unless The only thing
I can think of from a forensic pathology standpoint is
if and this is really a reach, if they found
again going back to hemorrhage versus non hemorrhage, if they
(39:07):
found insults to his body that were that didn't have
any focal areas of hemorrhage, you know, any kind of
continuion I mean, not contusions, but any kind of bloot
force impact that created a laceration perhaps. And I know
that's really a far reach. Uh you know, because I've
worked I've worked cases from great heights, you know, where
(39:28):
people have fallen. Yeah, I've had cases. I had a
couple of jumpers in Atlanta off of I think the Marriott,
which interestingly enough was an interior jump, and I think
that was twenty five stories, jumped into the atrium. Interestingly enough,
(39:51):
it was while the International Olympic Committee was having breakfast
in the foyer, I know. And and then I had
another guy that went through a window at an adjacent
hotel and he fell probably twenty about twenty stories and
landed on the pool house. His brain literally, it wasn't
(40:16):
an extrusion. The brain literally came out of the cranial
vault and wound up in the hot tub and there
were families out there swimming. He had been doing math
for about would two other guys been doing math for
about three days, I think, And he was actually a
substance abuse counselor. I'll never forget that. And he jumped
through one of those windows that's supposed to be in
(40:38):
a hallway in one of these hotels that is you
can't penetrate, and he jumped through it nude. Super bizarre case.
But anyway, I digress. I would think that you would
have to have some kind of circumstantial data to back
this up. Did the sun upon further you know, interview,
(41:01):
Did he say something directly to the police that brought
up suspicions, or has he said something to someone else
at some utterance that he made some spontaneous utterance and
somebody's like, I don't like the way that sounds. One
of the cops, and now they're kind of lifting the
lid back on this thing, you know, and going to
(41:23):
change it from well, in our circumstances, I think that
probably would go from until we had substance proof they
were going to rule it. They might take it off
of backs and go to undetermined toil have enough to
rule it as onsite from a medical legal perspective. But
in this was Spain, correct. Yeah, So in Spain, if
(41:43):
I'm remembering correctly, the forensic medicine people are not separate
from the cops. It's all housed in one. Yeah, it's
not good, So you don't necessarily have an independent investigation.
I might be, you know, stating that wrongly, but I've
had a case out of spending that I've covered in
(42:04):
the media, and it seems like that was the case.
Speaker 3 (42:07):
Yeah, I mean, I see what you're saying though about
the hammers. So you're you're just trying to say that
it's possible that there was some kind of a fight
and he could have or strangulation or anything, that he
could have been dead before he even hit the ground.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
Yeah, that's true. And if you know, that's interesting too
that you mentioned strangulation if it's some kind of a
six year old kind of a VET, But why wouldn't
that not have been noted earlier on, you know, at
the initial post, because that's something that would be obvious.
I'm not saying you couldn't get contact trauma, you know,
from striking the neck or something like that. But I
(42:40):
don't think that anything's really going to mimic strangulation as
opposed to being a blunt for strike, you know, with
you know, coming down the you know, a rock wall,
or you know, bouncing off deciduous rocks, boulders that are
underlying it.
Speaker 4 (42:59):
Seems like this made inconsistent statements, which is why they
want to go look back at it. But they're also
saying in the same breath, we're pretty sure it's not
a homicide, but.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
We're just making sure. But you should have made sure.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
From I mean, the guy's a multi billionaire, so there
is definitely I was actually.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Going to say that because you know this, this this
case is well People magazine is covering it. Yeah, pregnant. Pause, okay,
People Magazine, Daily Mail, your post, not so much post,
but those two entities billionaire, all right, you know, these
(43:40):
same people that have to report every time when of
the Kardashians breaks wind. So I don't know, you know,
if there's money that is involved in it, and I
say money, I'm talking about its salacious. So I don't know.
This kid may have done as a kid, you know,
he's in his forties, but I don't know that he
necessarily did anything at this point in Tom. Yeah, they're
gonna they're gonna say this in order to you know,
(44:03):
sling more ink if you will. Didn't sling ink anymore,
but yeah, yeah, yeah, and running some ice reputation process.
You're absolutely right.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
All right? So what about this? All right? The next story, Ray,
why don't you get into that? All right?
Speaker 4 (44:19):
So, women working at a Massachusetts school for kids with
mental and behavioral problems has died after a fourteen year
old student kicked her in the chest. So it seems
like the kid was trying to leave their dorm room.
It's one of those behavioral schools where kids live there.
I of course had to look in to it and
see if it was one of those really problematic ones
that has been coming up a lot, But everything I
(44:42):
read about online seemed that they had a pretty good reputation.
But the kid was trying to leave the dorm room
without permission, and then this staff or along with some
other school employees, were trying to restrain them, and that's
when the kick happened, and the staffer ended up collapsing
and died at the hospital the next day.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
Yeah, what do you say? They had her in Joseph.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
Well, I think that she had a rhythm event and it,
you know, and it caused her to go into a rest.
I think it's that simple. It's almost akin to and
again not know anything about the cardiac pathology. Their rule,
this is a homicide, assuming they hopefully they did an
autopsy and they would have revealed that in the dissection.
(45:24):
I'd like to know what level of occlusion she may
have had in her cordineraty Vessels, see if there were
any other kind of underlying cardiac problems she may have
had that she wasn't aware of. But that's kind of immaterial,
you know, the fact that you've got cause and effect
the question. Had a case many years ago where I
(45:46):
had a young man that my office didn't atlant that uh,
and I used this as illustrating in my classes at
Jackson State. I'm talking to my kids about if the
two two people had never met, would the person that
died have lived to see that the next sun Ross? Okay,
so you have to ask yourself that question of baseline,
(46:09):
if she had not been kicked struck, would she have
seen the next sun Ross? Well? Probably not so, cause
and effect, because this individual struck her. She died, all right,
there's no other way you can explain it.
Speaker 3 (46:27):
But she was going to die anyway. That's like, I
kind of know there's a really really high profile case
that you could say.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
That about too. Yeah, I'm sure you know what I'm
talking about.
Speaker 3 (46:41):
But you're yeah, so you're saying it autopsy like, did
she have you know, coronary artery blockage and three of
her main coronary arteries, and that that just a little
even if it wasn't a super hard kick, that would
have killed her normally, even could have set her into having,
(47:01):
you know, a cardiac event because of that.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
Yeah, and if this thing goes to trial, which I
think the perpetrator is fourteen years old, I'm not mistaken.
I don't know that anything's going to be done to
this person at all. But if it were to go
to trial, simply from a clinical standpoint, I got to
(47:25):
tell you, I'd be fascinated to listen to the cardiopathology
stuff about it. I really would, because that's going to
be a question. You know. It's kind of like, you know,
you know, we work homicides most of the time. When
you cover, when you're talking about homicide people you know,
kind of lean in when the pathologists is sitting there
and they're talking about wound tracks and all that sort
of stuff. In a case like this, yeah, you'd have
(47:47):
the forensic pathologists that did the initial autopsy. I'd be
fascinated to know if they sent this heart to somebody
that specialized in cardiopathology to really, you know, do a
deep dive. Maybe even cardiologists will be consulted. You'll see
them on the stand and so I'm kind of a
nerd like you guys, or you know, it would it
(48:09):
would from that perspective, it'd be certainly engaging, I think.
But yeah, uh, you know we've had this, do you
do you guys remember a few years ago there was
this move to and you still, uh, my grandson plays
baseball and if you're if you're pitching, you know, they
make the kids wear that that productive padding, that sternal
(48:32):
padding thing that they have to wear under their under
their jerseys because these kids were getting hotlined with a
ball and come back. There were a couple of cases
where kids will be destructed in chests and they go
in cardiac arrest. It's kind of the same same mechanism,
I think.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
So medio Cortes.
Speaker 4 (48:49):
Is that what happened with Tamar Hamlin when he got tackled?
Speaker 2 (48:53):
Well maybe, do you mean maybe.
Speaker 3 (48:56):
Because there might be other reasons anyway, is it possible?
Speaker 2 (49:06):
Yeah, it just stop. I guess if.
Speaker 3 (49:13):
She got kicked hard enough. This is just the theory too,
that she could because she was fifty five years old, Like,
there's a possibility she could have had some early osteoporosis
and her bones were a little bit more fragile, and yeah,
she broke a rib or something she could have had
like cardiac TAMPAAD or something like.
Speaker 1 (49:31):
Yeah, yeah, excellent, excellent point. And you know we see
that lots of toms with sternal fractures, but particularly rib
rib issues. I'm doing a gross dissection right now. Now
you I didn't tell you about this. I don't know
if I told you the last time we saw each other,
(49:51):
but I now have a gross lab from my undergraduate
forensic students. So we've actually got cadavers, which is we're
the first school I think in the Southeast that were
undergraduate forensics students have access to bodies. And this first
first individual that we're doing, he had tamponaud which was
my kids got to see.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
That it's so exciting, right.
Speaker 3 (50:13):
That was actually the very first autopsy I did by
myself was a cardiac tamponaud and I was you know,
you never see it yourself. You just hear about it
in books and stuff with them. When you open it,
you're like, oh my god, I know what this is.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
It's so exciting.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
Yeah, it's striking, it really is. And I was trying
to explain. I was trying to explain that to you,
and the kids don't have a front of reference for it.
They're just seeing a decendent. It was like, you need
to take a look at this. This is something that
you know you're not going to see, certainly as investigators,
as police officers, were very fortunate to be able to
(50:48):
see this at this moment in time. And but yeah,
if and again this is a lot of this. First,
there's a couple of things here. Let me let me
back up. I'm going to be interested to see if
there was how long she lasted and the dynamic. Did
(51:09):
she immediately go into cardiocchorist okay as a result of strike,
or was it something where she's short of breath, scrabbing
her chests and I can't breathe, I can't breathe, you know,
like this, and you've got to see kind of rolling
up or did she go into immediate cardiac arrest, which
might be more indicative of like a rhythm event, or
(51:30):
was it you know, slow bleed you know, into the
into the pair cardium. I think that's going to be
very interesting. And to see how how extensive the impact was,
you know, to see how diffuse this was, and any
kind of underlying structural trauma you you had mentioned, uh
(51:52):
well putting words in your mouth. I mentioned Sternham, you
mentioned Ribs. I'd be very interested to see, you know,
kind of the architecture in there, see if it was
disrupted at all.
Speaker 4 (52:02):
And.
Speaker 1 (52:04):
If there were any other associated traumas as well. Uh,
were there any contusions on the head, you know, did
she struck her head when she went back. I'd like
to know about her airway and I'd like to know
about her lungs as well. You let's see if there's
you know, what else is there you know, peripheral to
that to the actual strike. I think that's going to
(52:24):
be important as well.
Speaker 4 (52:26):
I mean, you guys think about all these details because
as a lay person, I'm just accepting it at face value.
She got kicked she died, you know, kicked down then
and the story, Yeah, that's.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
What I got to tell you. I had a guy.
I had a guy one time that uh. And of
course I'm down here in South not saying it couldn't
happen in Philly, but I had a guy that was
kicked in the chest by horse and he died.
Speaker 2 (52:53):
I would definitely be a suicide here.
Speaker 1 (52:58):
Here you go.
Speaker 3 (53:00):
All right, So this this is like a heavy on
the mental health issues episode. This one is that happened
this week is so disturbing.
Speaker 4 (53:09):
Yeah, nineteen year old boy in Staten Island stabbed his
mother's boyfriend to death, sawed off his head, and scooped
his brains out with a spoon and put them into
a blender, and then showed his sixteen year old sister
the scene. I can't imagine walking in on.
Speaker 3 (53:24):
Something so Joseph, obviously, you've seen your fair share of
just the most disturbing things that humans should never witness.
Speaker 2 (53:32):
And I'm sure it.
Speaker 3 (53:34):
You know, you might not think that it takes a
toll on you, but it's still kind of there and buried, right, what,
no hottie you like could you do you ever think
about people who just are not involved in this field
at all. I was just thinking about that when you
were talking about the guy who jumped in his brain
was in a hot tub, and there was people witnessing it,
(53:57):
just regular people that might just be swimmer for a profession,
and then all of a sudden come across this extremely graphic, gory,
disturbing thing.
Speaker 2 (54:06):
How horrible that must be for them?
Speaker 1 (54:09):
Yeah, and it is reflectively. I know. I'll keep going
back to cases I work, but I got let me
just kind of insert this little ditty here. There's case
that I use in my classes. I teach a medical
legal class for undergraduates. And had a guy that was
(54:29):
an autorotic case that had used a dog collar with
a chain tied to a hinge on a door in
a hotel actually a microtel if you've ever heard of those,
and he look, he was on the bathroom door. And
the bathroom in this place is like immediately like when
you open up your door to your hotel room, the
(54:51):
bathroom door can be visualized right there. So there was
this poor sweet little lady that was working as housekeeper
and she had just come to us from Guatemala, this
many many years ago, and that's how she found him.
She was the first person to visualize him. And when
when I got to the seat, she had collapsed onto
(55:14):
the floor, was leaning a back against the wall with
her her knees pulled in and she was holding her
rosary and she was praying, praying the rosary there and
just like vibrating like this. And it was heartbreaking to
see because you know, she's cleaning, cleaning rooms and here
you've got this guy suspended from a hinge behind him
(55:35):
with a dog collar of all things, and he's completely nude.
He's got velchrome straps that he's got. His hands wrist
are literally bound sounds really bizarre, but autootic cases are
bound between his legs so that, you know, not to
(55:56):
be impolite, but just so he could rub him elf
essentially by moving the hands back and forth while he's
deprivating himself with oxygen, depriving himself of oxygen. And that's
what she saw, and I often think about her, and yeah,
I've been around other cases where people have witnessed the
most bizarre things and most horrific things. This type of
(56:18):
thing though, that we're talking about with the blender. I
got to tell you something. Been covering a lot of
cases on bodybags, and my partner and I two years
ago did a special presentation at Crime con on dismemberment.
(56:38):
And the reason we did it is because we were
covering so many dismemberment cases all of a sudden in
the news. It's amazing how flooded the news cycle is
with these cases where somebody is doing something abusive to
a body. These are not postmartem I mean, these are
not need to mortem events. These are post mortem events.
(57:00):
So it's not just the fact that you're committing a homicide.
The remains are desecrated as well. And this is a
this is a different level here, because you don't just
have somebody, you know, taking apart or dissecting out of body.
You've got somebody that's going literally into the cranial vault
(57:20):
and extracting breath and then rendering it down or pulpifying
it or doing you know, however you want to phrase it.
This is a completely different plane of evil at this point, Tom,
I don't know if there's if what I am seeing
is just my own bias view, or if this is real,
(57:43):
because it seems like there has been a pronounced increase
in people that are doing these types of things. It's
almost like it's almost like there's a callous being built
up and people are so desensitized to this point that
they can go to this extent. I think it was
about a year and a half ago. I had a
(58:04):
case that we covered out of Maryland where we had
a grown woman and her daughter that killed the grandmother,
dismembered her, and tried to rend her down on the
gas girl in the backyard. It's like, what the where's
(58:24):
this coming from? You know, a lot of a lot
of these cases involving children killing parents and doing this dismemberment,
you know, and people, the psych people will say, well,
there's a lot of anger and rage you know involved
in this, forgive my friends, but no shit, Sherlock. Yeah,
I know that there is. There's also a lot of
psychothology going on too, and I don't understand how it's
(58:46):
gotten to this point. So yeah, this this case, I
might have to dig into this case on body bags
with your permission. Thanks for bringing it with touch to
my attention, because this is again another one one of
these things that is so super bizarre.
Speaker 3 (59:03):
So I wanted to Compare this to a recent case
that happened when this woman was stabbed to death on
the train, that that video that was going viral for
about a couple weeks before Charlie Kirk was killed. And
with the details of that case, that was a guy
who was diagnosed with schizophrenia as a teenager, and in
(59:27):
that case, his mom was really on top of it
and trying to get him treatment. And it's like the
same exact thing just happened in this case where this
kid was also diagnosed with schizophrenia as a teenager and
his mom was on top of it the whole time.
He was medicated and he was living with it, and
then all of a sudden he turned eighteen years old,
(59:49):
same as the Irena case on the train, and then
the parents have absolutely no control over what happens. So
this particular case, this kid, they the mom said that
he got switched onto another medication this past January, and
nobody would talk to her about it and let her
know what was going on, and she said he changed
(01:00:09):
since then, Like what are we how are we supposed
to function in the same society with people that are
capable of doing something like this and their own mother
doesn't even have any control over them being treated.
Speaker 1 (01:00:25):
Yeah. Well again, I know it's sound like a broken record.
Along with the course it's out there. There are no
longer psychiatric facilities like we used to have, you know.
And if you say that, people say you don't understand
the abuse that went on in these places. Yeah, okay,
(01:00:49):
We've talked about that. It's a new age. Courts need
to look at this differently. But I don't want to
talk about the abuse it might have happened back decades ago.
I want to talk about the abuse that's being perpetrated on,
like this poor Ukrainian girl that's here trying to make
a new life and she subjected to him acting out.
(01:01:14):
And I hate to even use the term acting out
in this case, you know, because it diminishes. This is
a straight up cold blooded homicide that we all saw.
How are we supposed to live with this? I'm not
interested in how they are supposed to live with it.
I'm interested in, you know, because I don't you know,
(01:01:34):
I know that you guys live in Philly, but it's
like I'm not inclined to take my grandkids to any
major city now, you know, to do things because I
don't know, you know, what's lurking around each corner. Is
it really worth the risk to go out and do
these things to make yourself available? And she's just trying
(01:01:56):
to make a living. She's on public transportation, you know,
going back and forth to work. This is what she's doing,
trying to build a new life. And then you mix
that in with you know, the institutionalization piece is gone now,
and even if they are institutionalized, it's for a very
brief period of time. I don't know what the assessment
(01:02:17):
level is to say, Okay, you've ticked all these boxes,
so now you can walk out the doors. It's still
as rigorous as it used to be because the how
the cause of the cost of housing somebody with severe
mental illness is astronomical. Now, so what are you going
to do with them? You know, at that point in time,
I know what we'll do. We'll give them some kind
(01:02:38):
of new cocktail. And obviously they're not being followed. You know,
these drugs are so very powerful, and I know I'm
preaching the choir, you understand this, but these strukes are
so very powerful. You can't predict what they're going to do.
That's why at least, you know, if you're going to
administer some type of powerful medication like this, you need
(01:03:00):
to have them in an observable place for a period
of time to see if what you're giving them is
viable for life on the outside. If it's not viable
in the clinical setting where you're able to assess them
every single day, how are you feeling doing ongoing blood
work all these sorts of things. You're just you know,
(01:03:22):
you're just you know, throwing throwing fuel on the fire
by doing this, because you're giving them this cocktail and
kind of casting them a drift where you know, people
on public transportation are having a blade driven into them.
That's the reality that we're in right now.
Speaker 4 (01:03:37):
I think that the people that push back are just
really uninformed about how dangerous this could be. Did you
read the book Hidden Valley Road?
Speaker 1 (01:03:44):
No? I never have.
Speaker 2 (01:03:45):
No, So this book I.
Speaker 4 (01:03:47):
Encourage everybody to read it. I've talked about it a
lot at the beginning of this year. It's this book
about a family that had twelve children and six of
their sons had schizophrenia, and it is a really great
inside look into how dangerous it could be and just
really good understanding of how these people have no control
of their minds and they just need help, you know
(01:04:09):
what I mean.
Speaker 1 (01:04:10):
Yeah, and you'll see the thread that runs through mass
shooters as well, where you know, many of them are
very powerful medications, or they were previously on very powerful medications.
They're not on them any longer. There's nowhere for them
to be placed where they can be assessed. And I've
(01:04:35):
lost so much faith in the therapeutic model at this
point in time relative to how the mentally ill are treated,
because it just seems as though that, you know, you
just throw chemicals at them essentially and hope you do better,
you know, and sometimes, you know, all the medication in
(01:04:55):
the world is not the answer. As a matter of fact,
it's like you know, playing with the with old dynamite.
You're just kind of shacking it up. You don't know
what the hell is going to happen, And we're seeing
this kind of come to fruition. I think ye all
around the.
Speaker 3 (01:05:08):
Country, Joseph, you make a good point, Like, you know,
we live in the burbs outside of the city, and
I used to work in the city and loved it,
and I've been back recently and I'm just like it's
it's different. And my kid is there right now today
as we speak, on a historical Philadelphia walking trip with
her class, and I had that conversation with her this morning.
(01:05:30):
I'm just like, if anyone comes up to you and
starts talking to you or anything, just don't engage with
them at all. It just scares the shit out of
me because she doesn't know how to handle that.
Speaker 2 (01:05:41):
She lives in the burbs like people don't.
Speaker 3 (01:05:43):
With the exception of my neighbor saying hi to the outfront,
they don't have they don't deal with people that are
legit out of their minds, like going up to them
and stuff.
Speaker 1 (01:05:51):
So no, and all you have to do is kind
of you kind of have to and forgive me. I
can't remember the name of this that main drag in
Philly where they have all the zombies, you know, kind
of walking.
Speaker 3 (01:06:01):
Aroundton Yeah, yeah, where that you know, if no one
has seen as videos, you know, do yourself a favorite.
Speaker 1 (01:06:10):
Let's let's go back to something about Philly real quick.
On a lighter note. You know, one of my favorite
historical locations in Philly is what it's not the Liberty Bell.
It's not was it Constitution Hall or the Independence, So
I can't remember the name of it. My favorite spot
(01:06:31):
is I stood on it. Actually had Kim take a
picture of me standing atop of the site of Ben
Franklin's Privy where his outhouse was. I love that spot.
And then they've got the little display over there, you know,
with everything they pulled out, and I was thinking, he's
such he was so brilliant. I'm thinking how much contemplative
(01:06:51):
time did he spend in that privy and what did
he think of when he was sitting there. One of
my favorite, one of my favorite spots in Philly to
go to.
Speaker 3 (01:07:00):
So if when you come visit us, we're going to
go on a tour. We have a lot of things
to see, including Kensington. We could drive through there.
Speaker 2 (01:07:06):
I don't think the.
Speaker 3 (01:07:07):
Videos do it justice, like it's just but but yeah,
we'll go check out. I always used to think that
on my lunch break, I would just want you take
for granted when you live around here. But I would
just walk by, like, oh, this is where the Declaration
of Independence was signed, like just on your way to
lunch every day. It's so it's so crazy, Yeah it is.
Speaker 1 (01:07:24):
It's Philly and Boston are two of my favorite places
to go. Uh, it's just, you know, the history just
kind of leeches out onto you and I I love it.
I love going there and again going back to a
bit more darker things here.
Speaker 3 (01:07:41):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (01:07:42):
My heart breaks over this, you know, because I you know, again,
going back, I'd love you know, I'd love to take
my grandson, and I don't know that I could do
it anymore. I did with my son and ran up
the stairs, you know, at the at the museum. I
don't know if I could do that with my grandson,
but I would love to, you know, be able to
take him there. But now I don't know that I'll
(01:08:04):
ever do that. I really don't. And that's just my
little slife supply. People say, well, you're a coward. No,
I'm not far from it. I'm reasonable at some risks
are just not They're just not worth it now. And
I think that that's a conclusion that many people are
coming to.
Speaker 3 (01:08:22):
I'm like, let's a terrorists when I don't care, I'm
not going I don't want to be in a situation
like that.
Speaker 4 (01:08:28):
People can see it as cowardly, but you also see
a totally different side of the world than most people
don't see.
Speaker 1 (01:08:34):
Yeah, and a lot of that has to do with
my history. And you know, you guys, I've written about
it and talked about my struggles with issues you know
that you know arose and were exacerbated by my practice.
And uh uh yeah, you're you're talking to a guy
that used to tell his daughter, you know, when they
(01:08:55):
were little, and this is absolutely horrible. When we go
out to a meal, I haven't told the story a while,
but we go out to a meal, I would look
at my kids and say, now, sure your food. You
realize I had a case involving a young girl that
choked on a piece of stacker, and you know, kids
are like, you know, sitting there, Oh my god. So
you know, my frame of reference is a little bit different,
(01:09:17):
you know than many people. I know that's horrible, but yeah,
it's kind of kind of the world that I come from.
I don't trust the environment. And listen, you guys might
be from Philly, but I'm from New Orleans and New
Orleans is it's it's rough. I mean, it's a rough place.
It was a great place to learn my trade. As
a young investigator. I saw a lot of stuff Like Philly.
(01:09:39):
It's a port city, you know, and you get all
kinds of stuff that come in off the ships, and
it's a different world, you know, as opposed to other
places like Atlanta. That's just kind of you know, everybody
kind of eggs. It's a city at night kind of
boring compared when compared to New Orleans. You see a
lot of that. But you know, you all you I've
(01:10:00):
gotten old enough now to where my callus is not
a stick to being aware of danger. And I'm older,
so uh, you know, I can sense it, you know,
to a great degree. Maybe I'm overly protective, but I
want to live to see to more. I want my
kids to thrive and live to see the more.
Speaker 3 (01:10:17):
Yeah, And I think that sometimes that these these accidental
deaths or even homicides that are just these freak things
that happen. You you have to wonder that you're just
gonna question if I if I would have just told
them not to do this, maybe this wouldn't have happened.
And you try just so you could live with it
if anything happens.
Speaker 1 (01:10:37):
Maybe I don't know, Yeah, I don't know. I always
look at it like I've been I've been blessed in
one way, because as dark as it is I've been
afforded the opportunity to see a real bleak side and
to see what can happen. Uh, I'm far from Pollyanna
when it comes to the world, you know, just kind
(01:10:58):
of bound said la la la la la. You know,
I'm not like that, And people say, well, you're jaded.
You're damn right. I am because of the things that
I saw. And if I feel like I'm doing people
at disservice, if I don't, you know, pass that on.
They can call me, you know, a mother hen or
they can say, you know, well you're just an old
fuddy duddy or whatever. I don't care. So there you go.
Speaker 2 (01:11:19):
So what are you working on right now?
Speaker 3 (01:11:21):
Do you have any projects you're currently working on that
you want to share with everyone?
Speaker 1 (01:11:25):
Yeah, Body Bags is going to be a television show.
Speaker 3 (01:11:27):
It's easy that when tell us when this is going down.
Speaker 1 (01:11:32):
Waiting, still waiting right now. But yeah, we've been in
the throes of this now for oh lord, it's been
a while. But yeah, we're going to be heading oxygen.
So I'm very, very very excited about that. And out
of all of my friends, I know that you guys
will probably appreciate this more and I hope that I
can honor honor the idea as best I can. I'm
(01:11:59):
going to use it as a tea eaching platform, so
that the way it's going to be structured is that
I'm going just like I try to do the podcast,
and I don't succeed every time, none of us do
right and so every time out. But the premise is
I'm going to take particular cases, current cases, and I'm
(01:12:21):
going to use that as a way to further inform
people about forensic science, all all areas of forensic science.
And the way the way I've kind of viewed this
is that I'm very fortunate in a sense that as
horrible as the things were that I saw in the field,
(01:12:46):
I'm very fortunate in the fact that I got to
seal them right. And a lot of people are really
interested in true crime, they're interested in science, and not
everybody has had the opportunities I've had, and so I
look at it that way that from an instructional standpoint,
I'm going to have an opportunity with experts and this
sort of thing to talk about cases that are in
(01:13:08):
the news that have been adjudicated by the way where
we can run through the forensics. We're not going to
get off into the weeds. There'll be some you know,
talk about relationships and things like that, but that's other
people are doing that. A lot of people are doing that.
Speaker 2 (01:13:25):
So I want to everyone's doing that.
Speaker 1 (01:13:28):
I want to bring it back into the science and
try to explain it as best I can. And you know,
people again, I had, you know, I didn't have any help.
You know, I paid my way through school, you know,
grinding it out just like you did. And you know,
but I've got a master's screen forensic science, and everybody
(01:13:51):
gets that opportunity. And now I've been teaching for twenty years,
so I've practiced for twenty years now. I've been teaching.
Actually it's my twenty first year of teaching in Higher ed.
And I'm very fortunate and not everybody, you know, I
have all these people saying I wish I could come
and take your class. You know, well, come to Jacksonville,
Alabama and you can take my class. You know. It's
(01:14:13):
just I don't do anything really online because it's forensic science.
You need to physically be in classroom, right and so
I'm going to try to open up that door, you know,
to people try to explain some of the finer points
of things, you know, as much as you can on
a television show. But I'm very excited for the opportunity.
And I'll keep you guys, I'll tell you what I'll
(01:14:34):
tell you. I'll make you this promise. When I get
a firm date, I will let you, guys know, and
we'll talk about it and we can talk about what
it's like being involved in a true crime program. And yeah,
I think that'd be interesting because a lot of people
don't get that insight. You know. I've done a lot
of documentaries, primarily working with Katie Studios. You get a
(01:14:55):
chance to check them out. I think three of their
podcasts right now are in the top in cells Pike
and Masker now in cells number one, O one and
uh oh True Crime Tonight. Uh True Crime Tonight, which
I'm on every Sunday night. We do uh uh Science Sundays.
(01:15:16):
It's what it's called up here once a week on
that show. And that's it's interesting because it's broadcast live
on iHeart Radio and then it's pulled over the next
day for you know, for a podcast, that's been a
lot of Yeah, that's been a lot of fun to
do from an instructional standpoint, and we generally have themes
(01:15:37):
going into the revolver around current cases. So Katie Studios
I've been in, I did uh and I urge anybody.
First off, everything esthetically, anything that they film is beautiful
to view. Uh. They've had some really great directors. I've
been involved in a docu series call Murdered and Missing
(01:16:01):
in Montana. It's about the Native American girls that you know,
cases weren't solved, they were just found dead and there's
a lot of this goes on, a lot of human trafficking,
that sort of thing. Then I did the Piked and Masker,
which is cases that are near and dear to my heart.
I was deeply involved in that eight you know, eight
homicides in one night at three separate locations.
Speaker 3 (01:16:25):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (01:16:25):
And then recently I did the Idaho uh the Iaho
case with them cases again with them with Katie Studios,
and it's just been very fortunate to be aligned with them.
They're they're dear friends and have been willing to take
a chance on me. I'm very grateful.
Speaker 3 (01:16:44):
That's so, I'm so happy for you, Like I've been
waiting for this. I feel like you said, I feel
like you did a post a while ago that was like, oh,
good things coming and then yeah, but I didn't want
to ask in.
Speaker 1 (01:16:56):
Case, no, my tomeline, my tomline and anything having to
do in media and entertainment, those two timelines are completely different.
And you know it's I'm an old soldier. I was
in the Army, so you learned early on that uh
you got to hurry up and wait. And I knew that. Uh,
but the Army has nothing on Hollywood. So yeah, they
(01:17:21):
have their own timetable. It's amazing how many vacations those
people take. That's you know, well we're going on summer break,
we're going on Christmas break. You know, we've got Thanksgiving
and you know they'll have some other holiday that they're
going to. We're not looking at anything right now. Production
teams all all missing and so but now you know,
(01:17:41):
a lot of stuff's on the struggle bus right now.
You know, they're they're having to come up with content
because they got to compete with lovely people like y'all.
And you know they're always pushing out content, you know,
and it's the you can you can feel it, you know,
you can feel the competitives coming up because people are
turning to YouTube and people are turning these other platforms
(01:18:02):
to get their podcast and all these different things, you know,
so they they have to be able to come up
with and bring, you know, bring the goods, you know.
So there you go. Maybe there won't be as me
holidays from now. I don't know, right.
Speaker 3 (01:18:15):
I was like, when I got hired as a PA,
I got four weeks vacation, and I thought that that
was I was like, yo, I got a sweet gig.
Speaker 1 (01:18:23):
Ye oh, oh my gosh. Yeah, no kid in four weeks,
holy smokes.
Speaker 3 (01:18:27):
Yeah, and you're like that, oh they take four weeks
every quarter, you know.
Speaker 1 (01:18:32):
But they're uh there, they get it out of you. Though.
You really need to tell people how hard you have
to work the rest of the time you're drowning. Drowning
in cases, spend a lot of time at the scope
and not a not an easy gig at all. Four weeks.
You need that amount of time just to recover, get
your brain resess.
Speaker 2 (01:18:50):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 3 (01:18:51):
Well, thanks so much for being here today, and we
definitely want to have you back when you're going to
announce your show and we can't wait to see it.
Speaker 1 (01:19:00):
Well, thank you for your generosity. We think the world
of you. Kim sins her.
Speaker 2 (01:19:04):
Love hope, We love him. She's the best, and.
Speaker 1 (01:19:06):
She's much better than me. I wish she could sit
here and just chat with you. You guys have a
great conversation.
Speaker 2 (01:19:11):
You know what's funny.
Speaker 3 (01:19:12):
Yeah, I met someone this week that was just like,
and she's in our profession. And she said, you know,
Joseph Scott Morgan And I said, yeah, I was like,
and I his wife is the best.
Speaker 1 (01:19:23):
She is, obviously she is. She puts up with me,
so she took a chance on me. But yeah, she's
an angel, she really is, and a lover to death.
We've We're in our twenty seventh year together.
Speaker 2 (01:19:35):
Now, and I love your relationship. It's so cute.
Speaker 1 (01:19:38):
It just keeps getting better and better. Every day. I'll
wake up and I'm surprised she's still with me, so
oh stop. She has to manage my life for me, though,
and she's really good, and I'm glad she had to
not have to. I'm glad she's retired now because now
she's got more work just keeping me and doesn't have
to worry a bunch of kids in the morning. She
got to worry about one big kid trying to keep
(01:19:59):
my calendar right for me.
Speaker 4 (01:20:01):
She retired me a wonderful book at Crime Con called Chaos.
So I started that last week and it is that fascinating,
incredible recommendation.
Speaker 1 (01:20:09):
Yeah, please do and if you get a chance. The
author can't River's name right now escapes me. Uh uh,
go go watch the interview with she.
Speaker 3 (01:20:20):
She told you to read that book in reference to me.
No oh, I thought it was like, let's we have people.
Speaker 1 (01:20:28):
Oh no, no, no, no, it's nothing like that. Please
but the author of the book. Go check out Rogan's
interview with him. It goes on to a four hour
long interview and it is absolutely mind blowing. Some of
the connectivity with things, uh everything from Charles Manson to
Lee Harvey Haswell, Lee Harvey Oswell uh uh and and
(01:20:53):
countless others. Uh the experiments you know, done with lesurgic
acid by our government and those sorts of things.
Speaker 4 (01:20:59):
Check.
Speaker 1 (01:21:00):
Yeah, do yourself favorite. The book is fantastic. And I
don't read a lot. My oys went great. She read
it to me, I said there, so yeah, yeah, we
uh and we talk we chat over coffee about it.
So yeah, it was I love that fantastic.
Speaker 3 (01:21:16):
Yeah, all right, Joseph, have a good day. We love
you and we'll see it.
Speaker 4 (01:21:20):
It's a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (01:21:21):
Thank you, Oh, thank y'all so much.
Speaker 3 (01:21:27):
Thank you for listening to Mother Nos Death. As a reminder,
my training is as a pathologists assistant. I have a
master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education.
I am not a doctor and I have not diagnosed
or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of
a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, and social
(01:21:51):
media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based
on my experience working in pathology, so they can make
healthier day decisions regarding their life and well being. Always
remember that science is changing every day and the opinions
expressed in this episode are based on my knowledge of
those subjects at the time of publication. If you are
(01:22:13):
having a medical problem, have a medical question, or having
a medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit an
urgent care center, emergency room or hospital. Please rate, review,
and subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube,
or anywhere you get podcasts.
Speaker 2 (01:22:33):
Thanks
Mother Knows Death starring Nicole and Jemmy and Maria qk.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hi. Everyone, welcome The Mother Knows Death.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
In addition to the news stories we will be discussing
on today's episode, we also want to welcome back our
friend and host of Body Bags podcast, Joseph Scott Morgan.
You may know Joseph from his frequent appearances on Crime
Stories with Nancy Grace, Court TV and other major news outlets,
or as the author of Blood Beneath My Feet, The
(00:43):
Journey of a Southern Death Investigator. Joseph holds the Masters
of Forensics degree from National University and is a Board
Certified Fellow of the American Board of Medical Legal Death Investigators. Currently,
he is an Associate Professor of Applied Forensics at Jacksonville
State University in Alabama. Joseph started working in forensics in
(01:06):
the eighties, and throughout his career he has been involved
in thousands of medical legal death investigations and autopsies. Hi, Joseph,
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Hey y'all, how are you doing. Thanks for having me back.
I've been hoping I could get back with you guys,
and here I am.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Thanks for being here. We love having you on and
so do our listeners. They're always just like.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
You know that guy.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
I speak.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
I'm like, I'm like, yeah, he was on TMZ this week,
and you know he was on there for good reasons.
Usually people are on there for scandalous reasons, and you
just your face was all over the internet.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Yeah, this one. You know, I don't I don't really
do TikTok that. I can't figure it out. My daughter,
my daughter, My daughter reached out to me though, and
she was like, she calls me Jofas. She was like, Joevish,
you're everywhere. I was like, well, yeah, I am, thanks
to Harvey and so yeah, yeah, I was. I was.
(02:09):
I was floating about and before that, I think it
was Pierce Morgan.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Uh oh, yeah, that was cool too.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Yeah. I did the thing regarding Charlie Kirk's homicide, so yeah,
and caught a lot of flak over that. So because
I you know, I don't like to use the assassination word.
It's one of the one of the problems we got
into with Kennedy. Uh. If they just straight up worked
it as a homicide, Uh, it lends itself, that lends
(02:39):
itself clinically to you clarity, right, when you stick with
the science, and unfortunately you get off on all these
rabbit trails and a lot of stuff that they were
saying early on turns out to not be true now,
so yeah, yeah, surprise, surprise. So people have a lot
of spare time on their hands. But yeah, you got
(03:00):
to look at it, let them work the case.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Yeah, I know that case is really interesting to me.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Of course, it's always compared to the Kennedy assassination, but
it's just so much different because there's so many different
angles of film and witnesses and higher death. It's just
not the zap Ruder film that you're going by frame
by frame, and and you have social media, and don't
you wonder how different it would be if this Kennedy
(03:28):
back then.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Yeah, I keep hoping, you know, someday I did a
big piece on while I've done several particularly on the
anniversary of the assassination sixty year back in twenty three,
and talked about it extensively on a couple of podcasts,
even Take Something with Fox and wound up getting shelved.
(03:49):
But yeah, and you know, so many things went wrong
with Kennedy and I don't want to necessarily again get
off on a go down a rabbit trail with you guys.
But just from a pathology standpoint, people don't really realize
(04:09):
with Kennedy, the first true medical examiner that Dallas ever had,
had just been hired and he was literally standing in
the hallway at Parkland protesting that the body should not
be removed. Doctor Earl Rose, if you get a chance,
check him out. Pretty amazing guy, originally from Iowa and
(04:32):
for his day and time, and he was actually one
of the first people, kind of in that early generation,
the first people that actually were boarded in forensic pathology.
And instead of him doing an examination who had extensive
experience with ballistics, they take the President's body and take
(04:57):
it away and arguably put it into the hands of
two of the most inept pathologists you could ever find
that had never done a forensic autopsy at all. And
so here we are today, all these years later, and
you know, reflecting on Charlie Kirk from that perspective, for me,
(05:18):
is very important to remember that Charlie went to one
of the best state medical examiner offices in the nation
in Utah, and you had a lot of eyes on
his case at that particular time, highly qualified people my stock,
their stock went up with me. And you guys might
(05:39):
find this interesting with the Tammy Dabll case because when
Tammy was buried, she was buried in Utah that had
again an order of exhamation, and they really took their
time with her case because there was you know, a
lot to go over that were missing a lot of things,
and luckily it did stay in Idaho. Her case didn't.
(06:02):
She was buried in Utah and that office you know,
went forward with the exhamation and did a bang a
job relative to her examination. I think the same is
going to apply with Charlie. This is an act of
an active homicide investigation. So for people that are sitting
around hoping that they're going to be getting a lot
(06:22):
of information and not this guy that's accused, you know,
they're going to try to strap him to a chair
and shooting capital punishment. The prosecutor's already said that. So
you know, people can stir the mud all they want to,
you know, muck up the waters if they want to,
but the truth will eventually come out.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
This is a good point that you're bringing up, kind
of and we could go back to the TMZ article
and why you went viral this week in regards to
Ellen Greenberg, we could just talk about that a little
bit before we start the new stories of this week.
But I do I personally know the medical examiner some
(07:05):
of them involved with this case, because obviously I did
my rotations through the Philly mme's office, and I do,
to a certain extent, feel bad that they have to
conduct investigations in this kind of a world now where
everyone's an investigator on social media and just ripping through
(07:25):
the case and maybe not either knowing all the details
or just not even have really examined the body to say,
you know, exactly what happens. So this case, however, is outrageous.
So Ray, why don't you just briefly talk about her
case for a second, just for those who are unfamiliar.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
For Ellen Greenberg.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Yeah, so she was a teacher that this is back
in Philadelphia in two thousand and eleven.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
It was twenty eleven. We talked about this last week
with Jackline too, you know, just going over the basics
of the case, where it was a snow day sent
home from school. She was there with her fiance. He
claims he went to the gym, came back and found
her stabbed to death, and it's just such an unusual
story because it had been determined it as a homicide
(08:16):
and then switched to suicide. Now they've confirmed it to suicide,
and there's just a lot of outrage about that report
that just came out last week.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
So, Joseph your thoughts.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Well, from an administrative standpoint, it's a total train wreck.
This is not the way a medical examiner's office should
be managed, because you know, even in the world priort.
You know, when when Ellen's death ocurred, we were not
as married to social media as we are now. And
(08:55):
I'm not saying it was done in a total vacuum. However,
we have to since that period of time, things have
changed considerably. And then when people take a look at
Allen's case and begin to kind of pick it apart
and see administratively, how many changes took place. I don't
know if Joe talked about this, By the way, one
of my favorite people, Joe, He's a fantastic guy. One
(09:21):
of the things that really struck me was the fact
that they had initially come out with suicide, I mean,
with homicide ruling, and then following this meeting that Osborne
was brought into with the prosecutor and the police. Suddenly
he has a change of heart, changes the manner of
(09:45):
debt the suicide. I've worked a lot of cases over
the course of my career where I had cases that
were initially suicide and then changed the homicide. I don't
remember any case that I had that was initially ruled
a homicide and then went to suicide. And we have
(10:05):
to also remember that for a while they teased out
the idea that they were going to make this an
undetermined They played around with that too. So, guys, we've
only got five minutes of death to choose from, and
you've gone through three of them. This is this is
not an organization I'd have a lot of confidence in
(10:27):
I think, you know, thinking about that, you know, administratively,
I'm not talking about from a practitioner standpoint. I'm talking
about just administratively. You know, how do you leap frog
from these things back and forth and the vacillation that
takes that has taken place with it, so it doesn't
doesn't go a long way to give confidence, I think
(10:51):
to too many people. Uh, you know, anytime you kind
of change change in midstream like this, and such a
and over the top case. I was talking to somebody
the other Day'll just okay, if we had never heard
of Ellen Greenberg, all right, from a media perspective, and
(11:16):
you're in the world of forensic pathology and you work
this case. This is the kind of case that if
you went to a scientific meeting, you know, you can
go to the American Academy of Forensic Science meeting in
the pathology section, and you've got a forensic pathologist that says,
(11:38):
you know, says in the you know, in the in
the program, I'm going to be talking about a case
involving a suicide where an individual has sustained twenty plus
you know, short force injuries. It'd be a packed house
because this is rare's hens teeth. It just doesn't have happened,
(12:00):
you know. I Self inflicted stabbings don't happen very very often.
And in my in just in my experience, I've got
a very small piece of the pie. All right. Here,
there's people that have different experiences all over, But in
my time in New Orleans and Atlanta work too, I
think with a knife. And one of those was a
(12:21):
paranoid schotzphrontic guy that thought he had a microphone in
his forearm, and I've told the story before, people will
have heard it. And he just kind of took a
filet knife and car. I think it was over thirty
individual in sized areas where he was just digging through,
digging through his arm to look for a microphone because
(12:42):
he thought the CIA had put it in. That's not
really suicide, right, you know. The other was a case
of it was an abdominal stable. And there may have
been two. We're talking twenty. We're talking twenty that are
in these kind of desperately different areas. One thing that
(13:04):
really never comes up, you know. You see that that
animation that uh that rendering of of of Ellen, and
I urge anybody go look at it. The attitude of
the blade actually changes in this the You've got different tracks.
(13:27):
They track in different directions. You've got some that are
uh uh more at an angle uh from left to right.
You've got some in the vertical plane that are going
from above to below, from below to above, from straight on.
And the blade itself actually turns. You can see the
(13:48):
attitude of the scene with the insult as it goes
into the body. It will have rotated multiple times. It
was just very very strange to me that that this
could be accomplished by one person and some of them.
You know, admittedly, some of these insults that she sustained
(14:09):
were superficial. Someone says, well, those are, and I think
the latest report she classified those as hesitations, and generally
with hesitations with sharp force injuries. You're thinking about the
cutting of the neck and the cutting of a wrist
(14:30):
with hesitations. Okay, I've never heard of stabbings detailed that
way as hesitations, and which was kind of odd to me.
It's kind of odd phraseology, I don't know, very peculiar.
And you know, she admitted that she discovered more stepwoots,
(14:53):
more stab woings upon her review of the case, and
more contusions she's got. You know, Ellen had this this
really kind of profound contusion on the anterior neck. You know,
if you look at it very closely, almost looks like
(15:13):
a hand. Perhaps impossible to marry that up. But she
had also contusions over multiple locations of her body. I
asked Josh and Sandy early on the Parents, you know,
talking about this case when I was on air with
Nancy Grace said, does she have any kind of equilibrium
(15:35):
issues at all because you know, one of the things
that we do in medical legal debt investigation, if we've
got unexplained injuries, there has to be a scientific explanation
for them, right. I want to know if she had
a big question. I wonder if she had problem with
clotting at all. I want to know if she had
equilibrium issues where like maybe she's unsteady gait, she's bouncing
(15:56):
into walls, you know, bumping into furniture. I wanted to
know if she had drug or alcohol problem. It was
like no, no, no, no, you know. And and that
was a couple of years ago when I first asked
them about that, because they did just know this stuff
really married up and and with contusions in particular, you know,
(16:22):
I want to know what what the status of resolve
was on each one of those. You know, how far
down the down down the road to healing are we
were each one of those contusions insized to get an
idea the level of resolve. So I don't know it
(16:46):
just the whole thing, to me from a medical legal
perspective was just bizarre. Uh, everything from the administrative stuff
to I think and I can't remember, forgive me, I
can't I remember this renowned neuropathologist, Lucy Oh, doctor Rourke. Yeah, yeah,
(17:07):
I mean out of all the people in the world,
out of all the people in the world that you
could say that you've turned tissues over to. And actually
it wasn't just like passively stated in the report. It
was like Osborne saying, a hand delivered this to her,
and you got Lucy Rourke saying, I don't have any
(17:28):
record of this. I'm seeing this.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
I'll tell you.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
I have a theory about that, actually, because I was
at that office around that time period for months and
I know how things roll there, and I also rotated,
so it was the main office was located in West Philly,
and it was in a walking distance of Children's Hospital
and University of Penn, So I was rotating at all
(17:52):
three of those places within the year, and oftentimes if
they wanted to have a neuro path console, they were
able to just walk over to Chop and show Lucy
she was there.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
I met her. She's an amazing woman. Yeah, just awesome.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
So I have a feeling that Marlin, possibly he could
have just totally fudged it, of course, but I also
have a feeling that it's possible that he just walked
over there and said can I show you something? And
that was it. It wasn't like a formal consul. And that's
just one possibility. But I think obviously the big problem
(18:34):
we talked with Joe Jacqueline about was the police investigation
part of it that was completely botched. But also just
think about from a medical examiner's perspective. I knew Marlon
when he was a resident, and I wouldn't say that
he was like a shining star of a.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Doctor, so he gets the case.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
I mean, can some of this be too that there's
just comp like you were saying with JFK, like an
inexperienced person was looking at the autopsy from the beginning.
So now when everybody goes back, including Lindsay, who was
also a resident under me, and she was probably in
her twenties when this happened, she was a resident, she
(19:17):
she wasn't even an attending yet, Like, how are you
supposed to go back and all you have now is
just photographs and they might not even be good photographs because.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Yeah, you're you know, because I've been Lord knows, I've
had to take a look at photos from not just
autopsies from crom saying, so you look at this and you're, yeah,
what what is this? You know, and and particularly when
you're on the the when you're on the technical level,
that path assistance and pathologist are on uh, and you're
(19:55):
lacking clarity and that from a clinical perspective, that's a
train wreck waiting to happen, and you're having to breathe
life back into the scene that occurred. You know how
many other cases have they worked in Philly since that
point in time? I don't know. There's not enough numbers
to count. And yeah, and I don't know if it
(20:18):
was I don't know if it was a perfect storm.
I do really take exception with the idea that he
would walk into a room with police and in a
DA and they're not be a written record of this.
You know what was truly communicated at that point in time. Well,
we're gonna we're going to urge you, I guess, I
(20:42):
don't know, you know who knows what was actually passed
between though, to change this ruling. You understand me, doctor,
We're going to change the ruling. You're going to change
the ruling. And you know, you get hung on that
and you think, wow, that's that's really kind of sinister,
you know when you think about it, because in our world,
I don't. It's not that I don't want to be
(21:03):
associated with police officers, teach cops, you know, love cops,
all right. However, we're an independent voice, you know, we're
you know, I don't. I don't. I'm not. I'm not
in the business of and people take exception me saying this.
I'm not in the business of trying to find justice. Okay,
I'm I want scientific truth. That's enough on my plate.
(21:28):
Let the courts handle the justice part, and the defense
and the prosecution handled justice part. We're not in that business,
all right. We're here to have scientific truth. What is
it that suddenly compelled you to change this ruling from
a hobbicide, which at its basic definition is defined as
(21:51):
death at the hand of another What is it that
got you off of that point to where you're going
to change this to suicide. Now, I would be much
more in clon to say, yeah, you know, well, I'll
roll with undetermined. You know, I'll roll with undetermined at
(22:13):
this point. But that's a big leap. That's a big
leap to say that you know, this didn't, this wasn't
at her own hand, this was, uh, at someone else's hand,
and then go back and say that it was at
her hand over and over and over again.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
It's it's just a very difficult case because there are
there are some if you, I think that a lot
of times when we're talking about this case, we just
leave out all of the things that other things that
were going on, especially psych things that seem to have
been going on. And like you were saying, she has bruises,
and that might very well be possible and even potentially
(22:54):
a sign of abuse. But uh, you know, from the
parents perspective, from every one's perspective, it seemed like they
had a good relationship, although obviously people in abusive relationships
hide that from their loved ones all the time. But
I personally didn't think that they did have a good
relationship because you know, at the time, I was a
(23:15):
woman her age, and I would never call my parents
being with my husband or my fiance at the time
and saying that I wanted to move home because I
was upset about my teaching job. You want to be
with you just want to be with your partner, And
the fact that she wanted to move home makes me
think that things weren't good with him, And then I
(23:37):
thought it was super super weird that she went to
a psychiatrist three times in one week. Unless I don't know,
if they're wealthy and they could just afford to do that.
I just feel like regular people don't have access to
a psychiatrist like that unless they're in a crisis.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Yeah. Yeah, and maybe if he hit a critical mass.
I don't know. And there's been a lot made of
things on the h on her vanity in the bathroom
where there was packing going on, and people had talked
about that as well. I think that there's one image
of that floating around out there somewhere where you know,
there's like makeup and all the essentials that ladies need,
(24:17):
you know, when they're leaving, that that was there in place.
I thought that that was kind of interesting as well.
It's certainly something that you know, we would have made
note of. And I'm not saying the Emmy investigator didn't
do a good job at the scene. I think they
did actually a very good job, because their their report
(24:39):
is contained within it's contained within that trunch of documents
that came from the Emmy. I do take exception to
the fact that it seems as though the police were
predisposed to just being suicide at that moment. Tom and
(25:02):
the adages. Uh, you know, every death is a homicide
until proven otherwise. Well, what what proof did you have
at the scene at that moment time that this was
in fact suicide? When you've got this over the top
number of insults to her body, shouldn't give it a pause?
(25:22):
You know, the next day, if I'm remembering correctly, the
scene had already been released.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Oh yeah, they cleaned it up.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Yeah yeah. And that that to me was really bizarre. Uh,
that they were allowed to have access. I think uh,
I think Ellen's uh laptop was removed, you know from scene,
and other items that you know could hold clues perhaps
(25:56):
you know, to state of mind, those sorts of things,
and you know who you know, once something has been
removed from a scene, see, obviously it goes without staying saying,
but it's no longer pristine at that point in Tom,
you have to treat it. I don't care how long
it takes. I don't care what kind of level of
inconvenience it causes somebody. You can't get a suit for
(26:16):
a funeral, I don't know, you know, there's always target.
I don't know what to tell you, because your needs
at that moment in time to have access to personal
items are trumped by the need to perform a thorough investigation.
So it's again, you know, I come back to the
(26:42):
level of trauma she had sustained, and it's so glaring
to me also that you know, I don't know. I'd
love to hear your thoughts on this biomechanically. Do you
think it's even plausible that she could have self inflicted
this many wounds posteriorly? That's one of the things that
(27:06):
you know that has always struck me about this be
able to reach back and facilitate this with this particular knife.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
Well, one of the one of the most because a
lot of the posterior wounds were very superficial. And one
of the one that has been going around that was
that they were saying she would not been able to
stab herself because it nicked. I know that one report
said it nicked a dora matter, but the other one
(27:36):
said that it partially at least put an incision into it.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
But then when I.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
Read the report of that, they said that there was
no hemorrhage around that, so they were saying something about her.
She was already dead at that point. Is it possible,
I'm just putting this out there that that was just
purely an incision made by a scalpabla at this section?
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Oh wow, you know I have not had anybody say
that to this point when and I can't forgive me,
I can't remember the lady's name that you know that
reveals this in this this deposition. I think you referenced
her earlier.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
There's two Lindsay's. So Lindsay Simon is the.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
Current medical experimenter and this was this was revealed by
the other Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Yeah, the neuropath, which she didn't generate a report on.
Apparently that this came out during the deposition. I do
know that. And and she in her statement she's kind
of watling on it. You know, could be this could
be that. So that's not necessarily absolutely positively definitive. Could
(28:47):
it have been nicked at post? Perhaps perhaps it could
have been, you know, and again giving her the benefit
of the doubt, she's looking at these tissues now several
years stamp range from this. Now she's not physically present
for the post. That's it again. This goes back to
(29:08):
an administrative issue, you know.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
So a another thing that I want to say is
that it appears that everything first she stabbed, she stabbed herself,
or she was stabbed in the back posteriorly obviously they said,
Now again this could be wrong too, but the fatal
wound was in the heart, and the knife was in
the heart, so that had to be the last one. Yes,
(29:34):
So if that was true, then you're saying that the
wound in the back, she was already dead. So then
she would have had to someone herself, or someone would
have had to restab her in the back, or anyone would.
And I just think even if it was a homicide
or so obviously if it's a suicide, she wouldn't be
able to do it because she was already dead. But
if it was a homicide, it would be weird to
(29:55):
stab someone in the back a lot, a bunch of
times and then go around the front and and go
to the back again.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Yeah. Yeah, And you've got a lot of movement, a
lot of repositioning. The blood doesn't really extend out any
further than away from that particular station where she was
at the sink. Another uh, you know, odd thing. You know,
she's obviously cutting up fruit, you know, at that at
that position, in order to prepare like fruit salad or
(30:22):
whatever it was she was doing, and she suddenly has
the urge at that moment Tom to take a knife
and self inflict while she's cutting up fruit, you know,
you know, at the kitchen counter. Kind of odd.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
Did they ever consult any psychiatrists about the interaction with
because in that period of time when she had seen
the psychiatrist, I feel like she was she was given
zole off and obviously, like that takes two weeks to work,
and it didn't work quick enough, so then they gave
her xanax, and then she was getting ambying and all.
(31:00):
Did you did they ever talk to anybody to see
if those drug interactions can cause like an acute psychosis
or something.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
I don't know. That is a fantastic question. Now, are
you asking that from the perspective of family or from
UH from the medical legal perspective, because I don't have
an answer for either one of those. I don't know
that the Greenberg's consulted consulted UH somebody that deals in psychopharmacology,
(31:31):
you know, that could give definitive answers about that.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
UH.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
I do know that with certain of these meds, and
it's a it's a real cocktail too, isn't it. You know,
you've got all of the stuff interacting with one another.
I know sometimes you can have people that will have
a break mentally. You know in that you know, and
you you you made the point relative to the zillof
(31:57):
that it does you have to build build that particular
medication in your system for it to begin to work effectively.
I don't have an answer to that, I really don't.
I don't know that they did, and I don't know
that the medical examiner did either. I would imagine that
(32:20):
if this case does in fact move forward in any
civil civil manner, that we're going to hear more about
psychopharmic collegy here though.
Speaker 4 (32:34):
There's another detail from that day I don't think a
lot of people talk about, which is that she called
all of her students' families to make sure they all
got home from school that day, okay, because.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
It was snowing.
Speaker 4 (32:47):
And while that is a sweet gesture, I think it's
kind of unusual.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
I don't know, you know, I talked to Kim, my wife,
who's a retired school teacher, about that particularly and she
she just had you know, I don't know that it's anecdotal,
but you know, she had said that in the past.
You know, in South we don't get much much snow
down down down this way. We do have ice storms,
so and actually I think they're worse than snowstorms many times,
(33:15):
particularly for us that are so handicapped in driving on
any in the South, on any kind of icy surface.
And my wife did say that she had called in
the past, she had a list of student phone numbers, family,
you know, contact information to make sure their kids, you know,
made it home. She had done that in past, particularly
(33:37):
when she was not so much in middle school, but
when she was at the elementary school level, very early
in her career. I do remember having a you know,
you know what my wife and I talked about relative
to this side, I don't know, but uh, you know,
I don't I don't know that that's unreasonable, particularly if
you've got a teacher that's really kind of married to
(33:59):
these kids. She's worried about them, you know, and from
all accounts, you know, she's a pretty good teacher. I
think I haven't heard anybody cast dispersions upon her abilities
as a teacher. From a parental standpoint, you know, she
hor horrible teacher. Wish our kids hadn't been with her.
There's always some of that that goes on in public education.
But you know, yeah, it is a sweet move. But
(34:23):
I also think that, you know, she could be concerned
about our students' welfare as well. And again, you know,
when you're kind of breaking down suicides, that's one of
the things that you look at. Or these behavioral connections
are observable behaviors, you know, how are they manifesting in
(34:44):
a person's life that may have made a choice at
that point in time to end their life. Doesn't necessarily
seem like something that they would do. Someone else might
argue the fact that, well, she's closing all accounts at
that point in time, if she was, in fact so subtle,
So it can be argued both ways.
Speaker 4 (35:02):
I think, yeah, that's interesting to hear because I just
I definitely can pull it back and say that's really
awesome of her and really sweet. But I was thinking
about it with you know, all the medication she was on,
her wanting to quit her job, her wanting to move
out of her house and move in with her parents,
and I just thought it was something that stood out
to me.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
See, it's weird to us because we're from Philly and
we're not nice people. People from the South are very
they're nice and they would do something like that, but
in Philly, it's just it's unusual for a phil We
just like, just like my kids the other day were like,
I was out front and someone just said hi to me,
and I'm just like, yeah, that's they're just being nice.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
They're just saying hi. That that happens, It does in
fact happen.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
And just keep in mind with people in the South
will be very nice to you to your face, all right,
but they're going to talk about you after you walk away.
The cool thing about people in Philly is that if
they want you to go to hell, they're gonna tell
you to get hell to your face. And then there's
no lack of clarity there with the instructions. You know
where you stand all right. In South, you know it
could be questionable.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
It's so true.
Speaker 4 (36:09):
We always talk about this because me and my husband
go to Tennessee a lot and people are always like.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Hi, how you do it? And We're like, what's your ankle?
What do you want?
Speaker 1 (36:17):
What are you trying to get out of me. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4 (36:27):
This episode is brought to you by the Grossroom.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Guys.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
This week's high profile death dissection in the Grosser Room
is on a really interesting case that was presented on
the show Unsolved Mysteries, and in keeping up with our
Halloween theme, we thought what better than a human head
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super interesting because it's not quite solved yet and it
(36:52):
may not even be a homicide case, So check that
out and we would love to know your thoughts on that.
One of the best parts of the case that many
people describe is that it almost I mean, if finding
a head in the woods is disturbing enough, but it
also has what people have said is a tiger king
like twist in the middle of the story, because you're
(37:15):
just like, is this how people are living right now?
I don't know, it's just it's really nuts. We also
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Head over to the Grossroom dot com now to sign up.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
All right, let's move on to some of the stories
going on in the news this week. So the story
about this this Mango founder, I'm curious of your thoughts
of this.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
You want to.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
Talk about it a little bit, Yeah, right, yeah, Race,
talk about.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
It a little bit, just for anyone that's unfamiliar.
Speaker 4 (37:56):
Well, our listeners might remember we covered this case back
in December four where this guy had died and at first, initially,
initially investigator thought it was an accident. So he was
the founder of Mango. His name's Isaac andck. They thought
that he felt three hundred and twenty feet to his
death during a hike with his son and it was accidental.
But now they're investigating the sun for a potential homicide.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
Joseph, how I mean this guy fell equivalent to a
thirty story building over three hundred feet yep. I know,
if people fall from a shorter distance, there might be
a way to be able to tell if they were
if they fell over unexpectedly versus they intentionally jumped or something.
But I mean, if there were no cameras present, how
(38:42):
would this homicide investigation go down?
Speaker 1 (38:45):
I don't know. It has to be some kind of
circumstantial data that would come in unless The only thing
I can think of from a forensic pathology standpoint is
if and this is really a reach, if they found
again going back to hemorrhage versus non hemorrhage, if they
(39:07):
found insults to his body that were that didn't have
any focal areas of hemorrhage, you know, any kind of
continuion I mean, not contusions, but any kind of bloot
force impact that created a laceration perhaps. And I know
that's really a far reach. Uh you know, because I've
worked I've worked cases from great heights, you know, where
(39:28):
people have fallen. Yeah, I've had cases. I had a
couple of jumpers in Atlanta off of I think the Marriott,
which interestingly enough was an interior jump, and I think
that was twenty five stories, jumped into the atrium. Interestingly enough,
(39:51):
it was while the International Olympic Committee was having breakfast
in the foyer, I know. And and then I had
another guy that went through a window at an adjacent
hotel and he fell probably twenty about twenty stories and
landed on the pool house. His brain literally, it wasn't
(40:16):
an extrusion. The brain literally came out of the cranial
vault and wound up in the hot tub and there
were families out there swimming. He had been doing math
for about would two other guys been doing math for
about three days, I think, And he was actually a
substance abuse counselor. I'll never forget that. And he jumped
through one of those windows that's supposed to be in
(40:38):
a hallway in one of these hotels that is you
can't penetrate, and he jumped through it nude. Super bizarre case.
But anyway, I digress. I would think that you would
have to have some kind of circumstantial data to back
this up. Did the sun upon further you know, interview,
(41:01):
Did he say something directly to the police that brought
up suspicions, or has he said something to someone else
at some utterance that he made some spontaneous utterance and
somebody's like, I don't like the way that sounds. One
of the cops, and now they're kind of lifting the
lid back on this thing, you know, and going to
(41:23):
change it from well, in our circumstances, I think that
probably would go from until we had substance proof they
were going to rule it. They might take it off
of backs and go to undetermined toil have enough to
rule it as onsite from a medical legal perspective. But
in this was Spain, correct. Yeah, So in Spain, if
(41:43):
I'm remembering correctly, the forensic medicine people are not separate
from the cops. It's all housed in one. Yeah, it's
not good, So you don't necessarily have an independent investigation.
I might be, you know, stating that wrongly, but I've
had a case out of spending that I've covered in
(42:04):
the media, and it seems like that was the case.
Speaker 3 (42:07):
Yeah, I mean, I see what you're saying though about
the hammers. So you're you're just trying to say that
it's possible that there was some kind of a fight
and he could have or strangulation or anything, that he
could have been dead before he even hit the ground.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
Yeah, that's true. And if you know, that's interesting too
that you mentioned strangulation if it's some kind of a
six year old kind of a VET, But why wouldn't
that not have been noted earlier on, you know, at
the initial post, because that's something that would be obvious.
I'm not saying you couldn't get contact trauma, you know,
from striking the neck or something like that. But I
(42:40):
don't think that anything's really going to mimic strangulation as
opposed to being a blunt for strike, you know, with
you know, coming down the you know, a rock wall,
or you know, bouncing off deciduous rocks, boulders that are
underlying it.
Speaker 4 (42:59):
Seems like this made inconsistent statements, which is why they
want to go look back at it. But they're also
saying in the same breath, we're pretty sure it's not
a homicide, but.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
We're just making sure. But you should have made sure.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
From I mean, the guy's a multi billionaire, so there
is definitely I was actually.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Going to say that because you know this, this this
case is well People magazine is covering it. Yeah, pregnant. Pause, okay,
People Magazine, Daily Mail, your post, not so much post,
but those two entities billionaire, all right, you know, these
(43:40):
same people that have to report every time when of
the Kardashians breaks wind. So I don't know, you know,
if there's money that is involved in it, and I
say money, I'm talking about its salacious. So I don't know.
This kid may have done as a kid, you know,
he's in his forties, but I don't know that he
necessarily did anything at this point in Tom. Yeah, they're
gonna they're gonna say this in order to you know,
(44:03):
sling more ink if you will. Didn't sling ink anymore,
but yeah, yeah, yeah, and running some ice reputation process.
You're absolutely right.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
All right? So what about this? All right? The next story, Ray,
why don't you get into that? All right?
Speaker 4 (44:19):
So, women working at a Massachusetts school for kids with
mental and behavioral problems has died after a fourteen year
old student kicked her in the chest. So it seems
like the kid was trying to leave their dorm room.
It's one of those behavioral schools where kids live there.
I of course had to look in to it and
see if it was one of those really problematic ones
that has been coming up a lot, But everything I
(44:42):
read about online seemed that they had a pretty good reputation.
But the kid was trying to leave the dorm room
without permission, and then this staff or along with some
other school employees, were trying to restrain them, and that's
when the kick happened, and the staffer ended up collapsing
and died at the hospital the next day.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
Yeah, what do you say? They had her in Joseph.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
Well, I think that she had a rhythm event and it,
you know, and it caused her to go into a rest.
I think it's that simple. It's almost akin to and
again not know anything about the cardiac pathology. Their rule,
this is a homicide, assuming they hopefully they did an
autopsy and they would have revealed that in the dissection.
(45:24):
I'd like to know what level of occlusion she may
have had in her cordineraty Vessels, see if there were
any other kind of underlying cardiac problems she may have
had that she wasn't aware of. But that's kind of immaterial,
you know, the fact that you've got cause and effect
the question. Had a case many years ago where I
(45:46):
had a young man that my office didn't atlant that uh,
and I used this as illustrating in my classes at
Jackson State. I'm talking to my kids about if the
two two people had never met, would the person that
died have lived to see that the next sun Ross? Okay,
so you have to ask yourself that question of baseline,
(46:09):
if she had not been kicked struck, would she have
seen the next sun Ross? Well? Probably not so, cause
and effect, because this individual struck her. She died, all right,
there's no other way you can explain it.
Speaker 3 (46:27):
But she was going to die anyway. That's like, I
kind of know there's a really really high profile case
that you could say.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
That about too. Yeah, I'm sure you know what I'm
talking about.
Speaker 3 (46:41):
But you're yeah, so you're saying it autopsy like, did
she have you know, coronary artery blockage and three of
her main coronary arteries, and that that just a little
even if it wasn't a super hard kick, that would
have killed her normally, even could have set her into having,
(47:01):
you know, a cardiac event because of that.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
Yeah, and if this thing goes to trial, which I
think the perpetrator is fourteen years old, I'm not mistaken.
I don't know that anything's going to be done to
this person at all. But if it were to go
to trial, simply from a clinical standpoint, I got to
(47:25):
tell you, I'd be fascinated to listen to the cardiopathology
stuff about it. I really would, because that's going to
be a question. You know. It's kind of like, you know,
you know, we work homicides most of the time. When
you cover, when you're talking about homicide people you know,
kind of lean in when the pathologists is sitting there
and they're talking about wound tracks and all that sort
of stuff. In a case like this, yeah, you'd have
(47:47):
the forensic pathologists that did the initial autopsy. I'd be
fascinated to know if they sent this heart to somebody
that specialized in cardiopathology to really, you know, do a
deep dive. Maybe even cardiologists will be consulted. You'll see
them on the stand and so I'm kind of a
nerd like you guys, or you know, it would it
(48:09):
would from that perspective, it'd be certainly engaging, I think.
But yeah, uh, you know we've had this, do you
do you guys remember a few years ago there was
this move to and you still, uh, my grandson plays
baseball and if you're if you're pitching, you know, they
make the kids wear that that productive padding, that sternal
(48:32):
padding thing that they have to wear under their under
their jerseys because these kids were getting hotlined with a
ball and come back. There were a couple of cases
where kids will be destructed in chests and they go
in cardiac arrest. It's kind of the same same mechanism,
I think.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
So medio Cortes.
Speaker 4 (48:49):
Is that what happened with Tamar Hamlin when he got tackled?
Speaker 2 (48:53):
Well maybe, do you mean maybe.
Speaker 3 (48:56):
Because there might be other reasons anyway, is it possible?
Speaker 2 (49:06):
Yeah, it just stop. I guess if.
Speaker 3 (49:13):
She got kicked hard enough. This is just the theory too,
that she could because she was fifty five years old, Like,
there's a possibility she could have had some early osteoporosis
and her bones were a little bit more fragile, and yeah,
she broke a rib or something she could have had
like cardiac TAMPAAD or something like.
Speaker 1 (49:31):
Yeah, yeah, excellent, excellent point. And you know we see
that lots of toms with sternal fractures, but particularly rib
rib issues. I'm doing a gross dissection right now. Now
you I didn't tell you about this. I don't know
if I told you the last time we saw each other,
(49:51):
but I now have a gross lab from my undergraduate
forensic students. So we've actually got cadavers, which is we're
the first school I think in the Southeast that were
undergraduate forensics students have access to bodies. And this first
first individual that we're doing, he had tamponaud which was
my kids got to see.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
That it's so exciting, right.
Speaker 3 (50:13):
That was actually the very first autopsy I did by
myself was a cardiac tamponaud and I was you know,
you never see it yourself. You just hear about it
in books and stuff with them. When you open it,
you're like, oh my god, I know what this is.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
It's so exciting.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
Yeah, it's striking, it really is. And I was trying
to explain. I was trying to explain that to you,
and the kids don't have a front of reference for it.
They're just seeing a decendent. It was like, you need
to take a look at this. This is something that
you know you're not going to see, certainly as investigators,
as police officers, were very fortunate to be able to
(50:48):
see this at this moment in time. And but yeah,
if and again this is a lot of this. First,
there's a couple of things here. Let me let me
back up. I'm going to be interested to see if
there was how long she lasted and the dynamic. Did
(51:09):
she immediately go into cardiocchorist okay as a result of strike,
or was it something where she's short of breath, scrabbing
her chests and I can't breathe, I can't breathe, you know,
like this, and you've got to see kind of rolling
up or did she go into immediate cardiac arrest, which
might be more indicative of like a rhythm event, or
(51:30):
was it you know, slow bleed you know, into the
into the pair cardium. I think that's going to be
very interesting. And to see how how extensive the impact was,
you know, to see how diffuse this was, and any
kind of underlying structural trauma you you had mentioned, uh
(51:52):
well putting words in your mouth. I mentioned Sternham, you
mentioned Ribs. I'd be very interested to see, you know,
kind of the architecture in there, see if it was
disrupted at all.
Speaker 4 (52:02):
And.
Speaker 1 (52:04):
If there were any other associated traumas as well. Uh,
were there any contusions on the head, you know, did
she struck her head when she went back. I'd like
to know about her airway and I'd like to know
about her lungs as well. You let's see if there's
you know, what else is there you know, peripheral to
that to the actual strike. I think that's going to
(52:24):
be important as well.
Speaker 4 (52:26):
I mean, you guys think about all these details because
as a lay person, I'm just accepting it at face value.
She got kicked she died, you know, kicked down then
and the story, Yeah, that's.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
What I got to tell you. I had a guy.
I had a guy one time that uh. And of
course I'm down here in South not saying it couldn't
happen in Philly, but I had a guy that was
kicked in the chest by horse and he died.
Speaker 2 (52:53):
I would definitely be a suicide here.
Speaker 1 (52:58):
Here you go.
Speaker 3 (53:00):
All right, So this this is like a heavy on
the mental health issues episode. This one is that happened
this week is so disturbing.
Speaker 4 (53:09):
Yeah, nineteen year old boy in Staten Island stabbed his
mother's boyfriend to death, sawed off his head, and scooped
his brains out with a spoon and put them into
a blender, and then showed his sixteen year old sister
the scene. I can't imagine walking in on.
Speaker 3 (53:24):
Something so Joseph, obviously, you've seen your fair share of
just the most disturbing things that humans should never witness.
Speaker 2 (53:32):
And I'm sure it.
Speaker 3 (53:34):
You know, you might not think that it takes a
toll on you, but it's still kind of there and buried, right, what,
no hottie you like could you do you ever think
about people who just are not involved in this field
at all. I was just thinking about that when you
were talking about the guy who jumped in his brain
was in a hot tub, and there was people witnessing it,
(53:57):
just regular people that might just be swimmer for a profession,
and then all of a sudden come across this extremely graphic, gory,
disturbing thing.
Speaker 2 (54:06):
How horrible that must be for them?
Speaker 1 (54:09):
Yeah, and it is reflectively. I know. I'll keep going
back to cases I work, but I got let me
just kind of insert this little ditty here. There's case
that I use in my classes. I teach a medical
legal class for undergraduates. And had a guy that was
(54:29):
an autorotic case that had used a dog collar with
a chain tied to a hinge on a door in
a hotel actually a microtel if you've ever heard of those,
and he look, he was on the bathroom door. And
the bathroom in this place is like immediately like when
you open up your door to your hotel room, the
(54:51):
bathroom door can be visualized right there. So there was
this poor sweet little lady that was working as housekeeper
and she had just come to us from Guatemala, this
many many years ago, and that's how she found him.
She was the first person to visualize him. And when
when I got to the seat, she had collapsed onto
(55:14):
the floor, was leaning a back against the wall with
her her knees pulled in and she was holding her
rosary and she was praying, praying the rosary there and
just like vibrating like this. And it was heartbreaking to
see because you know, she's cleaning, cleaning rooms and here
you've got this guy suspended from a hinge behind him
(55:35):
with a dog collar of all things, and he's completely nude.
He's got velchrome straps that he's got. His hands wrist
are literally bound sounds really bizarre, but autootic cases are
bound between his legs so that, you know, not to
(55:56):
be impolite, but just so he could rub him elf
essentially by moving the hands back and forth while he's
deprivating himself with oxygen, depriving himself of oxygen. And that's
what she saw, and I often think about her, and yeah,
I've been around other cases where people have witnessed the
most bizarre things and most horrific things. This type of
(56:18):
thing though, that we're talking about with the blender. I
got to tell you something. Been covering a lot of
cases on bodybags, and my partner and I two years
ago did a special presentation at Crime con on dismemberment.
(56:38):
And the reason we did it is because we were
covering so many dismemberment cases all of a sudden in
the news. It's amazing how flooded the news cycle is
with these cases where somebody is doing something abusive to
a body. These are not postmartem I mean, these are
not need to mortem events. These are post mortem events.
(57:00):
So it's not just the fact that you're committing a homicide.
The remains are desecrated as well. And this is a
this is a different level here, because you don't just
have somebody, you know, taking apart or dissecting out of body.
You've got somebody that's going literally into the cranial vault
(57:20):
and extracting breath and then rendering it down or pulpifying
it or doing you know, however you want to phrase it.
This is a completely different plane of evil at this point, Tom,
I don't know if there's if what I am seeing
is just my own bias view, or if this is real,
(57:43):
because it seems like there has been a pronounced increase
in people that are doing these types of things. It's
almost like it's almost like there's a callous being built
up and people are so desensitized to this point that
they can go to this extent. I think it was
about a year and a half ago. I had a
(58:04):
case that we covered out of Maryland where we had
a grown woman and her daughter that killed the grandmother,
dismembered her, and tried to rend her down on the
gas girl in the backyard. It's like, what the where's
(58:24):
this coming from? You know, a lot of a lot
of these cases involving children killing parents and doing this dismemberment,
you know, and people, the psych people will say, well,
there's a lot of anger and rage you know involved
in this, forgive my friends, but no shit, Sherlock. Yeah,
I know that there is. There's also a lot of
psychothology going on too, and I don't understand how it's
(58:46):
gotten to this point. So yeah, this this case, I
might have to dig into this case on body bags
with your permission. Thanks for bringing it with touch to
my attention, because this is again another one one of
these things that is so super bizarre.
Speaker 3 (59:03):
So I wanted to Compare this to a recent case
that happened when this woman was stabbed to death on
the train, that that video that was going viral for
about a couple weeks before Charlie Kirk was killed. And
with the details of that case, that was a guy
who was diagnosed with schizophrenia as a teenager, and in
(59:27):
that case, his mom was really on top of it
and trying to get him treatment. And it's like the
same exact thing just happened in this case where this
kid was also diagnosed with schizophrenia as a teenager and
his mom was on top of it the whole time.
He was medicated and he was living with it, and
then all of a sudden he turned eighteen years old,
(59:49):
same as the Irena case on the train, and then
the parents have absolutely no control over what happens. So
this particular case, this kid, they the mom said that
he got switched onto another medication this past January, and
nobody would talk to her about it and let her
know what was going on, and she said he changed
(01:00:09):
since then, Like what are we how are we supposed
to function in the same society with people that are
capable of doing something like this and their own mother
doesn't even have any control over them being treated.
Speaker 1 (01:00:25):
Yeah. Well again, I know it's sound like a broken record.
Along with the course it's out there. There are no
longer psychiatric facilities like we used to have, you know.
And if you say that, people say you don't understand
the abuse that went on in these places. Yeah, okay,
(01:00:49):
We've talked about that. It's a new age. Courts need
to look at this differently. But I don't want to
talk about the abuse it might have happened back decades ago.
I want to talk about the abuse that's being perpetrated on,
like this poor Ukrainian girl that's here trying to make
a new life and she subjected to him acting out.
(01:01:14):
And I hate to even use the term acting out
in this case, you know, because it diminishes. This is
a straight up cold blooded homicide that we all saw.
How are we supposed to live with this? I'm not
interested in how they are supposed to live with it.
I'm interested in, you know, because I don't you know,
(01:01:34):
I know that you guys live in Philly, but it's
like I'm not inclined to take my grandkids to any
major city now, you know, to do things because I
don't know, you know, what's lurking around each corner. Is
it really worth the risk to go out and do
these things to make yourself available? And she's just trying
(01:01:56):
to make a living. She's on public transportation, you know,
going back and forth to work. This is what she's doing,
trying to build a new life. And then you mix
that in with you know, the institutionalization piece is gone now,
and even if they are institutionalized, it's for a very
brief period of time. I don't know what the assessment
(01:02:17):
level is to say, Okay, you've ticked all these boxes,
so now you can walk out the doors. It's still
as rigorous as it used to be because the how
the cause of the cost of housing somebody with severe
mental illness is astronomical. Now, so what are you going
to do with them? You know, at that point in time,
I know what we'll do. We'll give them some kind
(01:02:38):
of new cocktail. And obviously they're not being followed. You know,
these drugs are so very powerful, and I know I'm
preaching the choir, you understand this, but these strukes are
so very powerful. You can't predict what they're going to do.
That's why at least, you know, if you're going to
administer some type of powerful medication like this, you need
(01:03:00):
to have them in an observable place for a period
of time to see if what you're giving them is
viable for life on the outside. If it's not viable
in the clinical setting where you're able to assess them
every single day, how are you feeling doing ongoing blood
work all these sorts of things. You're just you know,
(01:03:22):
you're just you know, throwing throwing fuel on the fire
by doing this, because you're giving them this cocktail and
kind of casting them a drift where you know, people
on public transportation are having a blade driven into them.
That's the reality that we're in right now.
Speaker 4 (01:03:37):
I think that the people that push back are just
really uninformed about how dangerous this could be. Did you
read the book Hidden Valley Road?
Speaker 1 (01:03:44):
No? I never have.
Speaker 2 (01:03:45):
No, So this book I.
Speaker 4 (01:03:47):
Encourage everybody to read it. I've talked about it a
lot at the beginning of this year. It's this book
about a family that had twelve children and six of
their sons had schizophrenia, and it is a really great
inside look into how dangerous it could be and just
really good understanding of how these people have no control
of their minds and they just need help, you know
(01:04:09):
what I mean.
Speaker 1 (01:04:10):
Yeah, and you'll see the thread that runs through mass
shooters as well, where you know, many of them are
very powerful medications, or they were previously on very powerful medications.
They're not on them any longer. There's nowhere for them
to be placed where they can be assessed. And I've
(01:04:35):
lost so much faith in the therapeutic model at this
point in time relative to how the mentally ill are treated,
because it just seems as though that, you know, you
just throw chemicals at them essentially and hope you do better,
you know, and sometimes, you know, all the medication in
(01:04:55):
the world is not the answer. As a matter of fact,
it's like you know, playing with the with old dynamite.
You're just kind of shacking it up. You don't know
what the hell is going to happen, And we're seeing
this kind of come to fruition. I think ye all
around the.
Speaker 3 (01:05:08):
Country, Joseph, you make a good point, Like, you know,
we live in the burbs outside of the city, and
I used to work in the city and loved it,
and I've been back recently and I'm just like it's
it's different. And my kid is there right now today
as we speak, on a historical Philadelphia walking trip with
her class, and I had that conversation with her this morning.
(01:05:30):
I'm just like, if anyone comes up to you and
starts talking to you or anything, just don't engage with
them at all. It just scares the shit out of
me because she doesn't know how to handle that.
Speaker 2 (01:05:41):
She lives in the burbs like people don't.
Speaker 3 (01:05:43):
With the exception of my neighbor saying hi to the outfront,
they don't have they don't deal with people that are
legit out of their minds, like going up to them
and stuff.
Speaker 1 (01:05:51):
So no, and all you have to do is kind
of you kind of have to and forgive me. I
can't remember the name of this that main drag in
Philly where they have all the zombies, you know, kind
of walking.
Speaker 3 (01:06:01):
Aroundton Yeah, yeah, where that you know, if no one
has seen as videos, you know, do yourself a favorite.
Speaker 1 (01:06:10):
Let's let's go back to something about Philly real quick.
On a lighter note. You know, one of my favorite
historical locations in Philly is what it's not the Liberty Bell.
It's not was it Constitution Hall or the Independence, So
I can't remember the name of it. My favorite spot
(01:06:31):
is I stood on it. Actually had Kim take a
picture of me standing atop of the site of Ben
Franklin's Privy where his outhouse was. I love that spot.
And then they've got the little display over there, you know,
with everything they pulled out, and I was thinking, he's
such he was so brilliant. I'm thinking how much contemplative
(01:06:51):
time did he spend in that privy and what did
he think of when he was sitting there. One of
my favorite, one of my favorite spots in Philly to
go to.
Speaker 3 (01:07:00):
So if when you come visit us, we're going to
go on a tour. We have a lot of things
to see, including Kensington. We could drive through there.
Speaker 2 (01:07:06):
I don't think the.
Speaker 3 (01:07:07):
Videos do it justice, like it's just but but yeah,
we'll go check out. I always used to think that
on my lunch break, I would just want you take
for granted when you live around here. But I would
just walk by, like, oh, this is where the Declaration
of Independence was signed, like just on your way to
lunch every day. It's so it's so crazy, Yeah it is.
Speaker 1 (01:07:24):
It's Philly and Boston are two of my favorite places
to go. Uh, it's just, you know, the history just
kind of leeches out onto you and I I love it.
I love going there and again going back to a
bit more darker things here.
Speaker 3 (01:07:41):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (01:07:42):
My heart breaks over this, you know, because I you know, again,
going back, I'd love you know, I'd love to take
my grandson, and I don't know that I could do
it anymore. I did with my son and ran up
the stairs, you know, at the at the museum. I
don't know if I could do that with my grandson,
but I would love to, you know, be able to
take him there. But now I don't know that I'll
(01:08:04):
ever do that. I really don't. And that's just my
little slife supply. People say, well, you're a coward. No,
I'm not far from it. I'm reasonable at some risks
are just not They're just not worth it now. And
I think that that's a conclusion that many people are
coming to.
Speaker 3 (01:08:22):
I'm like, let's a terrorists when I don't care, I'm
not going I don't want to be in a situation
like that.
Speaker 4 (01:08:28):
People can see it as cowardly, but you also see
a totally different side of the world than most people
don't see.
Speaker 1 (01:08:34):
Yeah, and a lot of that has to do with
my history. And you know, you guys, I've written about
it and talked about my struggles with issues you know
that you know arose and were exacerbated by my practice.
And uh uh yeah, you're you're talking to a guy
that used to tell his daughter, you know, when they
(01:08:55):
were little, and this is absolutely horrible. When we go
out to a meal, I haven't told the story a while,
but we go out to a meal, I would look
at my kids and say, now, sure your food. You
realize I had a case involving a young girl that
choked on a piece of stacker, and you know, kids
are like, you know, sitting there, Oh my god. So
you know, my frame of reference is a little bit different,
(01:09:17):
you know than many people. I know that's horrible, but yeah,
it's kind of kind of the world that I come from.
I don't trust the environment. And listen, you guys might
be from Philly, but I'm from New Orleans and New
Orleans is it's it's rough. I mean, it's a rough place.
It was a great place to learn my trade. As
a young investigator. I saw a lot of stuff Like Philly.
(01:09:39):
It's a port city, you know, and you get all
kinds of stuff that come in off the ships, and
it's a different world, you know, as opposed to other
places like Atlanta. That's just kind of you know, everybody
kind of eggs. It's a city at night kind of
boring compared when compared to New Orleans. You see a
lot of that. But you know, you all you I've
(01:10:00):
gotten old enough now to where my callus is not
a stick to being aware of danger. And I'm older,
so uh, you know, I can sense it, you know,
to a great degree. Maybe I'm overly protective, but I
want to live to see to more. I want my
kids to thrive and live to see the more.
Speaker 3 (01:10:17):
Yeah, And I think that sometimes that these these accidental
deaths or even homicides that are just these freak things
that happen. You you have to wonder that you're just
gonna question if I if I would have just told
them not to do this, maybe this wouldn't have happened.
And you try just so you could live with it
if anything happens.
Speaker 1 (01:10:37):
Maybe I don't know, Yeah, I don't know. I always
look at it like I've been I've been blessed in
one way, because as dark as it is I've been
afforded the opportunity to see a real bleak side and
to see what can happen. Uh, I'm far from Pollyanna
when it comes to the world, you know, just kind
(01:10:58):
of bound said la la la la la. You know,
I'm not like that, And people say, well, you're jaded.
You're damn right. I am because of the things that
I saw. And if I feel like I'm doing people
at disservice, if I don't, you know, pass that on.
They can call me, you know, a mother hen or
they can say, you know, well you're just an old
fuddy duddy or whatever. I don't care. So there you go.
Speaker 2 (01:11:19):
So what are you working on right now?
Speaker 3 (01:11:21):
Do you have any projects you're currently working on that
you want to share with everyone?
Speaker 1 (01:11:25):
Yeah, Body Bags is going to be a television show.
Speaker 3 (01:11:27):
It's easy that when tell us when this is going down.
Speaker 1 (01:11:32):
Waiting, still waiting right now. But yeah, we've been in
the throes of this now for oh lord, it's been
a while. But yeah, we're going to be heading oxygen.
So I'm very, very very excited about that. And out
of all of my friends, I know that you guys
will probably appreciate this more and I hope that I
can honor honor the idea as best I can. I'm
(01:11:59):
going to use it as a tea eaching platform, so
that the way it's going to be structured is that
I'm going just like I try to do the podcast,
and I don't succeed every time, none of us do
right and so every time out. But the premise is
I'm going to take particular cases, current cases, and I'm
(01:12:21):
going to use that as a way to further inform
people about forensic science, all all areas of forensic science.
And the way the way I've kind of viewed this
is that I'm very fortunate in a sense that as
horrible as the things were that I saw in the field,
(01:12:46):
I'm very fortunate in the fact that I got to
seal them right. And a lot of people are really
interested in true crime, they're interested in science, and not
everybody has had the opportunities I've had, and so I
look at it that way that from an instructional standpoint,
I'm going to have an opportunity with experts and this
sort of thing to talk about cases that are in
(01:13:08):
the news that have been adjudicated by the way where
we can run through the forensics. We're not going to
get off into the weeds. There'll be some you know,
talk about relationships and things like that, but that's other
people are doing that. A lot of people are doing that.
Speaker 2 (01:13:25):
So I want to everyone's doing that.
Speaker 1 (01:13:28):
I want to bring it back into the science and
try to explain it as best I can. And you know,
people again, I had, you know, I didn't have any help.
You know, I paid my way through school, you know,
grinding it out just like you did. And you know,
but I've got a master's screen forensic science, and everybody
(01:13:51):
gets that opportunity. And now I've been teaching for twenty years,
so I've practiced for twenty years now. I've been teaching.
Actually it's my twenty first year of teaching in Higher ed.
And I'm very fortunate and not everybody, you know, I
have all these people saying I wish I could come
and take your class. You know, well, come to Jacksonville,
Alabama and you can take my class. You know. It's
(01:14:13):
just I don't do anything really online because it's forensic science.
You need to physically be in classroom, right and so
I'm going to try to open up that door, you know,
to people try to explain some of the finer points
of things, you know, as much as you can on
a television show. But I'm very excited for the opportunity.
And I'll keep you guys, I'll tell you what I'll
(01:14:34):
tell you. I'll make you this promise. When I get
a firm date, I will let you, guys know, and
we'll talk about it and we can talk about what
it's like being involved in a true crime program. And yeah,
I think that'd be interesting because a lot of people
don't get that insight. You know. I've done a lot
of documentaries, primarily working with Katie Studios. You get a
(01:14:55):
chance to check them out. I think three of their
podcasts right now are in the top in cells Pike
and Masker now in cells number one, O one and
uh oh True Crime Tonight. Uh True Crime Tonight, which
I'm on every Sunday night. We do uh uh Science Sundays.
(01:15:16):
It's what it's called up here once a week on
that show. And that's it's interesting because it's broadcast live
on iHeart Radio and then it's pulled over the next
day for you know, for a podcast, that's been a
lot of Yeah, that's been a lot of fun to
do from an instructional standpoint, and we generally have themes
(01:15:37):
going into the revolver around current cases. So Katie Studios
I've been in, I did uh and I urge anybody.
First off, everything esthetically, anything that they film is beautiful
to view. Uh. They've had some really great directors. I've
been involved in a docu series call Murdered and Missing
(01:16:01):
in Montana. It's about the Native American girls that you know,
cases weren't solved, they were just found dead and there's
a lot of this goes on, a lot of human trafficking,
that sort of thing. Then I did the Piked and Masker,
which is cases that are near and dear to my heart.
I was deeply involved in that eight you know, eight
homicides in one night at three separate locations.
Speaker 3 (01:16:25):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (01:16:25):
And then recently I did the Idaho uh the Iaho
case with them cases again with them with Katie Studios,
and it's just been very fortunate to be aligned with them.
They're they're dear friends and have been willing to take
a chance on me. I'm very grateful.
Speaker 3 (01:16:44):
That's so, I'm so happy for you, Like I've been
waiting for this. I feel like you said, I feel
like you did a post a while ago that was like, oh,
good things coming and then yeah, but I didn't want
to ask in.
Speaker 1 (01:16:56):
Case, no, my tomeline, my tomline and anything having to
do in media and entertainment, those two timelines are completely different.
And you know it's I'm an old soldier. I was
in the Army, so you learned early on that uh
you got to hurry up and wait. And I knew that. Uh,
but the Army has nothing on Hollywood. So yeah, they
(01:17:21):
have their own timetable. It's amazing how many vacations those
people take. That's you know, well we're going on summer break,
we're going on Christmas break. You know, we've got Thanksgiving
and you know they'll have some other holiday that they're
going to. We're not looking at anything right now. Production
teams all all missing and so but now you know,
(01:17:41):
a lot of stuff's on the struggle bus right now.
You know, they're they're having to come up with content
because they got to compete with lovely people like y'all.
And you know they're always pushing out content, you know,
and it's the you can you can feel it, you know,
you can feel the competitives coming up because people are
turning to YouTube and people are turning these other platforms
(01:18:02):
to get their podcast and all these different things, you know,
so they they have to be able to come up
with and bring, you know, bring the goods, you know.
So there you go. Maybe there won't be as me
holidays from now. I don't know, right.
Speaker 3 (01:18:15):
I was like, when I got hired as a PA,
I got four weeks vacation, and I thought that that
was I was like, yo, I got a sweet gig.
Speaker 1 (01:18:23):
Ye oh, oh my gosh. Yeah, no kid in four weeks,
holy smokes.
Speaker 3 (01:18:27):
Yeah, and you're like that, oh they take four weeks
every quarter, you know.
Speaker 1 (01:18:32):
But they're uh there, they get it out of you. Though.
You really need to tell people how hard you have
to work the rest of the time you're drowning. Drowning
in cases, spend a lot of time at the scope
and not a not an easy gig at all. Four weeks.
You need that amount of time just to recover, get
your brain resess.
Speaker 2 (01:18:50):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 3 (01:18:51):
Well, thanks so much for being here today, and we
definitely want to have you back when you're going to
announce your show and we can't wait to see it.
Speaker 1 (01:19:00):
Well, thank you for your generosity. We think the world
of you. Kim sins her.
Speaker 2 (01:19:04):
Love hope, We love him. She's the best, and.
Speaker 1 (01:19:06):
She's much better than me. I wish she could sit
here and just chat with you. You guys have a
great conversation.
Speaker 2 (01:19:11):
You know what's funny.
Speaker 3 (01:19:12):
Yeah, I met someone this week that was just like,
and she's in our profession. And she said, you know,
Joseph Scott Morgan And I said, yeah, I was like,
and I his wife is the best.
Speaker 1 (01:19:23):
She is, obviously she is. She puts up with me,
so she took a chance on me. But yeah, she's
an angel, she really is, and a lover to death.
We've We're in our twenty seventh year together.
Speaker 2 (01:19:35):
Now, and I love your relationship. It's so cute.
Speaker 1 (01:19:38):
It just keeps getting better and better. Every day. I'll
wake up and I'm surprised she's still with me, so
oh stop. She has to manage my life for me, though,
and she's really good, and I'm glad she had to
not have to. I'm glad she's retired now because now
she's got more work just keeping me and doesn't have
to worry a bunch of kids in the morning. She
got to worry about one big kid trying to keep
(01:19:59):
my calendar right for me.
Speaker 4 (01:20:01):
She retired me a wonderful book at Crime Con called Chaos.
So I started that last week and it is that fascinating,
incredible recommendation.
Speaker 1 (01:20:09):
Yeah, please do and if you get a chance. The
author can't River's name right now escapes me. Uh uh,
go go watch the interview with she.
Speaker 3 (01:20:20):
She told you to read that book in reference to me.
No oh, I thought it was like, let's we have people.
Speaker 1 (01:20:28):
Oh no, no, no, no, it's nothing like that. Please
but the author of the book. Go check out Rogan's
interview with him. It goes on to a four hour
long interview and it is absolutely mind blowing. Some of
the connectivity with things, uh everything from Charles Manson to
Lee Harvey Haswell, Lee Harvey Oswell uh uh and and
(01:20:53):
countless others. Uh the experiments you know, done with lesurgic
acid by our government and those sorts of things.
Speaker 4 (01:20:59):
Check.
Speaker 1 (01:21:00):
Yeah, do yourself favorite. The book is fantastic. And I
don't read a lot. My oys went great. She read
it to me, I said there, so yeah, yeah, we
uh and we talk we chat over coffee about it.
So yeah, it was I love that fantastic.
Speaker 3 (01:21:16):
Yeah, all right, Joseph, have a good day. We love
you and we'll see it.
Speaker 4 (01:21:20):
It's a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (01:21:21):
Thank you, Oh, thank y'all so much.
Speaker 3 (01:21:27):
Thank you for listening to Mother Nos Death. As a reminder,
my training is as a pathologists assistant. I have a
master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education.
I am not a doctor and I have not diagnosed
or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of
a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, and social
(01:21:51):
media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based
on my experience working in pathology, so they can make
healthier day decisions regarding their life and well being. Always
remember that science is changing every day and the opinions
expressed in this episode are based on my knowledge of
those subjects at the time of publication. If you are
(01:22:13):
having a medical problem, have a medical question, or having
a medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit an
urgent care center, emergency room or hospital. Please rate, review,
and subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube,
or anywhere you get podcasts.
Speaker 2 (01:22:33):
Thanks
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