On today's MKD, Maria is joined by investigator and host of Zone 7 Podcast, Sheryl "Mac" McCollum! We discuss a possible link between the Zodiac Killer and Black Dahlia murder, the disappearance of a Candy heiress, Alec Baldwin's mental health after the 'Rust' Shooting, and Kohberger’s sister's new interview.
Listen to more Mac on MKD:
4/15/24 - Scott Peterson, DUIs, and Cold Cases
7/2/25 - Sniper Kills Firemen, Karen Read Foreman Wants Case Reopened, Diddy Verdict Watch
Follow Mac! Zone 7 Podcast - Instagram (@thecoldcasefoundation // @sheryl_mac_mccollum) // X (@ColdCaseFNDN) // Facebook (@ColdCaseInstitute) // Website (www.coldcasefoundation.org)
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Mother Knows Dad starring Nicole and Jemmy and Maria QK.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hi everyone, welcome to Mother Knows Death and Happy New Year.
Nicole is still on vacation, so today I'm going to
be joined by the one and only Cheryl mac McCollum
to discuss all the latest true crime news. You may
have heard Mac on our show before her hit podcast,
Stone seven, or during one of her appearances on Crime
Stories with Nancy Grace. In addition to her podcast, Mac
(00:41):
is a crime scene investigator, founder of the Cold Case
Investigative Research Institute, and she has a new book called Swanstone,
Swim and a Sewer, Solving the cold case of the
Flint River Killer's daughter coming out this may please welcome
back to the show. Hi, Mac, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Girl. I'm so glad you found called me. I knew
you would ditch that old brawl one day.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I know, Lick, did you forget you had a job.
She's just not coming back, leaving you with all this
work to do. It's kind of rude.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
That is so rude, so rude. But you're gonna be great.
We're gonna have a good time, Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
We are gonna have a good time. We have a
bunch of true crime stories to cover today. First I
have to ask how your trip to Paris was. It
looked unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
The word we all kept using was just magical. Let
me tell you, I had been to Paris in the spring,
but Christmas time is a new level. I have never
just been so blown away by how gorgeous a city was. Ever.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
That's amazing. I saw that you went to Versailles, and
I believe you went to the say of the heist
at the Loof too, So that must have been awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
That was fantastic. Yes, an interesting there's a portrait at
Versailles where the necklace that was stolen is being worn
in the portrait.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Wow, that's incredible.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Yeah. So there was a lot of just connection there.
Obviously the coronation room, so the crown that was stolen
but recovered because they dropped it. Yeah, you know, but
just to think all of that just I mean, you
can't replace any of it, and you know they just
you know, smash and grab. I mean that's all it was.
(02:31):
It's not some complicated Oceans eleven. It was let's go
in on the second story and bust the case and
grab them and go.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
That's definitely not when the password to the security system
is loof so I don't think that any good protection
in place for.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
That, right. But it's also one of those situations where
it is so busy and so congested all the time
that they could easily get that ladder up there. Nobody
would have looked at them twice because from a tourist standpoint,
you don't know who belongs and who does it, and
you would certainly assume with some type of apparatus like
(03:11):
that and dress like construction workers that they were doing
a job that everybody you know was in on. You know,
but it was eight minutes from ground to get away.
Eight minutes, Oh definitely.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
I mean I went there, god probably fifteen years ago now,
and it was so overwhelming. As you know, you've been
there in the spring and now the winter time. I
went in the summer. It was absolutely chaotic, and I
feel like as a tourist are so overwhelmed by the environment,
you wouldn't even think about any shady business anybody was
up to.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
You would look at it twice. I mean, all of
us are used to construction, whether it's on the roadway
or some building. You don't think to go, man, that
doesn't look right at the loop. You would assume that
forty people would have to know that's going on and
have some type of understanding that there's a permit, that
there's the okay, that they've got cameras in security and police.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Oh yeah, but eight minutes crazy. All right, let's start
off with some true crime news. So I want to
start off with this new claim that the Zodiac Killer
is now linked to the Black Dolia murder. So basically,
this fifty year old man, his name's Alex Baber. He
owns the Cold Case Consultants. He's considered an amateur sleuth
(04:26):
and a self taught cryptog cryptography expert. You know, we're
the worst with pronunciations on this show. So he decides
to take a look at this cipher that the Zodiac
Killer set a newspaper in nineteen seventy and try to
break the code. This cipher says my name is blank,
followed by thirteen symbols. So this guy has been spending
twenty hours a day for the past couple of months
(04:47):
trying to decipher this note. He was initially presented with
seventy one million possibilities and eventually narrowed it down to
this name of this guy that was investigated for the
Black Dolia murder, which is kind of and saying connection
to me, But what are your thoughts on this?
Speaker 1 (05:03):
I'm gonna tell you straight out. I say this all
the time. Civilians solve cases all the time we need them.
The first Zodiac puzzle was solved by a guy sitting
in his dining room table. Oh yeah, okay, so it
can be done. It has been done, so I welcome
(05:26):
any I mean, he doesn't have to call himself an amateur.
He can just say, hey, this is what I did,
this is my background. I've spent twenty hours a day
for all these months. Is it just unimaginable that these
two things are connected in a lot of ways. For
me as a crime scene investigator, as a criminologist, they
(05:47):
do not seem connected to me if you're looking at
the murders, So for me, I want to start there
with you. Yeah, when you look at the murders, just
the murders. Forget the you know, the site, the puzzles,
the codes, forget all that for a minute. Forget taunting
the police, because that does have a factor, It does
(06:07):
have a place But for me, the majority of murders,
especially a serial killer like the Zodiac, clearly was your
mo can change your signature, won't. So the reason for
you killing what you do. That's rarely. I don't know
(06:34):
of a case where it really changes. So again, if
I look at the black, do you she's cutting half,
her bloousband drained, she's got blows to the head, right,
she's put out just where somebody can easily find her
by the sidewalk. She's sexually assaulted. He does things to
(06:58):
her that took a lot of time. Maria. So she had,
you know, rode burns on her risted ankle, she had
a tattoo cut off, she had the blood drained. All
of that took a lot of time. That's real personal
to me. Then when you got Zodiac, he shot people,
He stabbed people. These are couples now in like a
(07:21):
lover's lane. Later there was the cab driver, But I'm
saying for the most part, these were people parking making out.
He doesn't sexually assault anybody. He doesn't torture anybody. He
doesn't tie them up, he doesn't drain their blood, he
doesn't cut them in pieces. That doesn't sound like the
same person at all.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
To me, I agree one hundred percent with you, and
I think he did present some compelling evidence in the
sense of when they're looking at this guy named Marvin Margolis,
he when he was investigated for the crime, he had
lived with Elizabeth short before she had been killed, so
you have that personal element to it. But really the
only connection is that he had been frantically or a
(08:03):
person that it was thought to be involved in the
murders had frantically been driving around to motels looking for
a bathtub, and one of those motels happened to be
called the Zodiac Motel, And that this person also handed
down a firearm to his son that had a similar
symbol that the Zodiac used. But I think when you
look at the case of Arthur Lee Allen as the
primary suspect, I think the evidence as much the circumstantial
(08:26):
evidence alone is much more compelling that would point to
him being the Zodiac killer, not this other guy.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Listen, it's hard when you're doing a case with no
physical evidence, which is what we have here. We don't
have it. We don't have a fingerprim we don't have DNA,
we don't have any of that. Why did you know
the avenger use cement sacks. I don't know, why would
he leave them behind? I don't know was he in
(08:53):
that sedan? You know, it certainly seems like a crime
where this person had to have known her. It seems
that personal to me, it does you know, Zodiac, there's
zero connection to those people, you know. But then you
get into the other stuff where you're like, man, how
(09:14):
many killers taught the police through letters and phone calls? None? Hardly.
I mean, I think we've got Jack the Ripper, we
got Zodiac, we got the Black NAULI That's about it.
I mean, in my forty four years, I've never had
one where anybody sent us a letter where anybody called
us taught us. I mean, I hadn't worked it, hadn't
(09:37):
heard it. So that certainly gets my attention. Obviously, what
was written, how it was written, who it was addressed to,
you know, the over posted stamp, you know, yeah, I
mean I can't deny that part. But I'm saying again
people's motivation for killing and the reason they want to
(09:59):
do it, have to do it almost and then the little,
you know, signature type things, that's paramount to me. So
I have to start with that. I mean, I would again,
I would love some physical evidence. I would love for
some fingerprint to be on one of the letters. I
would love for some type of handwriting to come forward, something, anything.
(10:21):
And you know, the other thing that's interesting to me
is the lapse of time. If this person needed attention
so bad and wanted here's my moniker, I want you
to call me this. And in both situations, the person
named themselves. So that tells you there's some ego in it,
there's some pride in it. He just goes silent for
(10:44):
two decades. That seems odd.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Yeah, And I also agree with you about how long
the crime the Black Dahlia took. It was very personal.
I mean, to train somebody of all their blood, carve
a smile into their face, I just think it's I
think it's the opposite. You would progress into doing more
ritualistic acts like that instead of just being like, I'm
going to take the easy route and just shoot somebody.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
And here's the other thing. Most violent people, Let's say
they start fighting and then they graduate to stabbing, then
they graduate to shooting and actually murdering people. If you've
got somebody and the first murder, we know connected to
this person through their own writing and phone calls. They
(11:29):
have bisected this person, drain their blood, beat them, card
that joker smile, cut the tattoo off and inserted it
in her, sexually assaulted her. Then you downgrade you're.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Less violent exactly.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
I mean, I'm not saying shooting ain't violent. Please do
not send me an email saying I said that. What
I am saying is shooting somebody from a distance that
you don't know, that you don't even put your hands
on them. That is less than what the black doll
you avenger did to his victim. And I don't see
(12:11):
anybody going backwards. Usually, once you've got that taste of blood, baby,
that's it, and you're gonna get more violent and more brazen.
Like look at Ted Bundy. Oh yeah, more violent, more brazen.
He went from strangling to beaten to be head.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Oh absolutely. And I just think in this case, you know,
if you're starting off with seventy one million possibilities and
you're narrowing it down, you could probably find anybody in
this country that's gonna fit the narrative for what you're
looking for.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Sometimes, listen, I did a case that was pretty much
all circumstantial, and it's easy to start convincing yourself. Let
me say it this way. We all have one girlfriend
that decided she was so in love with some because
it was faate, right, but she was making the fate fit. Oh,
(13:06):
we met on the third day of the third month
at three o'clock. It's meant to be maybe, or maybe
it was just you know that loser walked in the
bar at three. I mean, I don't know what to
tell you. So sometimes we can make things fit, you know,
and you're like, oh, that's crazy. He drew some woman
(13:27):
and her name was Elizabeth. That has to be the
black Naulia.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Not necessarily no, And I was looking at it. I
do think, you know, he presents a good case, but
I don't think it quite fits. And I can't ignore
all of the circumstantial evidence against Arthur Lee Allen either,
And I guess in both cases they're technically not solved,
so it's hard to say, and they're decades old, so
(13:53):
we'll probably never know at this point. But you never
know what new technology, what they can.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Pay, and you know, well, God loving for tron I
mean twenty hours a day for three months on something
you're not getting paid to do this sitting what you're
doing for a living, nobody is supporting you to do it.
I appreciate all of it. And who knows, there may
be one more thing that's gonna make this whole, you know,
(14:19):
house of cards fall. He may be closer than we've
ever seen. But I'm just saying, if you start with
the murders themselves, I don't see it.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Oh, definitely, all right. So, speaking of another unusual cold case,
I wanted to talk about the disappearance of this candy heiress,
Helen Brock, who went missing forty nine years ago this February.
So in the fifties, Helen had married Frank Brock, who
was the heir to the Brock candy fortune, and they
were together until Frank's death in nineteen seventy. So fast
forward seven years. Then, sixty five year old Helen reportedly
(14:50):
went to a doctor's appointment in Minnesota, got into a taxi,
went to the airport, flew home to Chicago, her housekeeper
saying he picked her up from the airport, she spent
several days at and then he dropped her back off
at the airport so she could go to her condo
in Florida, but she never got to Florida, and her
friends are saying every time they called the house, the
housekeeper was being extremely shady.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Yeah. So this is a woman that capt a real
tight circle. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Right.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
So she didn't have fifteen people in her house. She
didn't have housekeepers and gardeners and pool people that were
there every day. She basically had one person that she
relied on with all of her things. You know. The
first thing that kind of stuck out for me is
not only did he give different stories to every called,
he failed a couple of polygraphs. That's a little concerning, yes, right, So,
(15:44):
I mean I would love to really know more about
why would she go to another state to a doctor
and what kind of doctor? Was that just part of
her I'm eccentric or was that the best doctor in
the country at the time? What would she go? And
four and then Florida? Did he not travel with her?
(16:05):
Did he not help her set that house up? And
I don't see her as the kind of person that's
gonna do a lot of things alone. I feel like
she's that kind of person that coffee's brought to her.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Oh definitely, her.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Going and making it, so again, I don't see her
taking off to Milwaukee and then Florida all by herself.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
I agree with you too, because I believe I was
reading that at the time of her disappearance her net
worth was around forty million dollars, which, if you think
for the seventies, is astronomical. I didn't even do the conversion,
but I can't imagine. But I agree with you. Wealthy
people of this caliber tend to not do anything alone.
They always have a companion, whether it's a friend or
like in this guy's case, somebody that had worked for
(16:48):
her for twenty years, right, But then you start looking
into him being shady, and then her brother gets involved
as well, and oh, by the way, he's set to
get five hundred thousand dollars in hedance if something were
to happen to her. And then all of a sudden
you find out that the housekeeper's buying a meat grinder
and deep cleaning the mansion in her car, and the
(17:09):
brothers burning journals that she wrote, saying that she would
be embarrassed if people found them. I don't think you're
going to those great lengths of your sister's missing.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
Well, the meat grinder alone should stop people in their trust.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Next.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
I mean, if you want to get rid of somebody,
that's one way to do it.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Oh yeah, And it sucks because this lady sounded kind
of cool there said she was known for her luxury
cars that were pink and purple to mimic the candy colors.
I love to hear that. But the unfortunate part of
the story was her body's never been found. She ended
up being legally declared dead in nineteen eighty four, and
then only for these people to still get money from
(17:48):
her and nobody be arrested for her debt. And we
really don't know what happened.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
And here's the crazy thing. When you look at people
that are worth that amount of money, who can they trust? Yeah? Right, So,
like I had one friend from high school that has
done very very well, super famous, I don't know that
she can trust five people that she didn't know before
(18:14):
that happened. It seems like every single person wants something
from her. Does that make sense? Like, whether it's the
accountant or the lawyer or the new neighbors in the
new fancy neighborhoods, everybody wants something from her. So if
you didn't know them prior to you coming into fame
and fortune. I think that would be one of those things.
(18:38):
You know, you don't let a lot of people in
because they're not there for the right reason. So you
would almost think this man that's been with her for
twenty years, especially after her husband's death. But here's the reality,
what does that do to motive? That kind of accelerates.
Hey wait a minute, now that he's deceased, I'm one
death away from coming into money. Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
I mean, my family's irritated with me talking about this
all the time, but I'm in my gilded age phase
right now. So I just read a book about the
Vanderbilt families and the Astor families from that time, sure,
and what I've pulled from it is that having wealth
of that caliber. Of course, people are like poor them
for being billionaires at the time, but it's a very
(19:22):
lonely life and you can't trust people. And something that
stuck out in the Vanderbilt book in particular for me,
was that Gloria Vanderbilt, you know, had been kidnapped as
a child and it was a very sensitive topic to her,
and one of her closest friends ended up taking the
role of her nanny in a movie later in her life,
and that completely broke her trust. And to just think
your closest friend can even not play you in a
(19:45):
fictional depiction of your biggest trauma in your life. It's
so heartbreaking and upsetting.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
It is heartbreaking because again, she didn't have that many
close friends to start with, exactly because again, of course,
everybody wants to go to her birthday powardy because she's
gonna have ponies and balloon rides and you know, fancy
gifts that they give the guests that come. But that's
not a real friend, you.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Know, No, definitely. So another interesting part of this case
that I saw in the article was that in nineteen
ninety they did exume a body that they thought was hers,
but they later determined it not to be. So of course,
her body's never been found, but she has a grave
site next to her husband. But this is just another
one of those cases we're just never gonna really know
what happened, even though we could assume with the meat grinder,
(20:33):
this guy's pretty guilty.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
I mean, I wish that's something they had, if they could,
you know, get a hold of that thing, because there
ain't no way to clean that if it was used
to dispose of a human body, so that would be
a great source of DNA. Let's say, but again, how
do you get somebody out of a mansion? Well, if
you've got a meat grinder, I mean, that's an easy
get little bitty sacks at a time. Nobody's gonna look
(20:57):
at that. The trash man ain't gonna pay attention. I mean,
that's easy. That's not like a body having to be
rolled up in a rug, you know.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
No, we talked about that a lot with Brian Walsh too,
because it's just like, you know, this case, this guy
is just such an idiot, probably the worst killer ever,
but somehow lucked out that they never found her.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
When you look at what he managed to do wrong,
it's mind boggling. I mean it's almost like has he
never watched a crime movie ever? Has he never listened
to one podcast? Does he not even have common sense?
I mean, this man honestly thought, Hey, I'm such a
(21:38):
you know, crime genius. I'm just gonna pay cash. But
there's a video there, and a video there in a
video watch.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Or just even admitting she did die but it was
naturally And I freaked out Okay, well, boom, I could
even understand dumping a body if you're freaking out, but
to go the great lengths to dismember somebody and dump
their part set friend's sites, Okay, we all totally believe
that's what happened, right right right?
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Well, you know, I mean, she died in the bed,
and I just knew y'all weren't gonna believe that happened,
so I'm gonna make it a thousand times worse than
it ever would have been.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Yeah, and then I feel like there was We just
wrote it up for the website a couple of weeks ago,
and there were so many dumb Google searches that I
made a whole separate PDF because for our subscribers, I
was like, you guys really just don't understand how much
of an idiot this guy was.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yeah, ridiculous. I mean, he's sitting in prison like most
people are probably like, oh man, I got called because
I made one mistake. Every single thing he did was
a mistake everything.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Yeah, But luckily in that case, they had enough to
put him away, because if he got away with that,
that was gonna be absolutely ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Oh yeah, I mean there needed to be some type
of public reaction to that if that had occurred.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Oh, of course, this episode is brought to you by
the Grossroom guys. In the last couple of weeks, we
covered the Brian Walls trial and how absolutely insane that
case is. You wouldn't believe how dumb this guy is,
considering he almost got away with it and his wife's
(23:16):
body was never found, So you're gonna want to check
that out. Also, we are returning with YouTube Live this
Friday's normal scheduled programming, so we can't wait to see everybody.
Head over to the grossroom dot com now to sign up.
All right, So, a couple of weeks ago, Alec Baldwin
went on a podcast and explained how he's still struggling
with trauma after he accidentally shot and killed cinematographer Helena
(23:38):
Hutchins on the set of Rust. What are your thoughts
on this case?
Speaker 1 (23:42):
You know, for all the things that people say that
he is, I mean, we've all heard the voicemail. He
loved his daughter and that sort of thing, and maybe
he's got a temper, maybe he's not the most kind person.
He's not a killer. Yeah, I don't know anything in
his bad background where he was ever physically abusive verbally.
(24:04):
I mean again, we heard the voicemail, but he's not that.
And I think for him, the realization that his action,
whether it was on purpose or intentional, he took a life,
and he took the life of somebody he knew it
(24:26):
doesn't surprise me at all. He's not doing well because
it affected every single aspect of his life. Think about
the people that wanted to be next to him, and
then that happened, and the phone call stopped. Your fake
friends go away immediately, and some of those are probably
(24:46):
people he thought were his friends. And then you know,
the career took a hit. He's going to be sued,
is going to be this whole public opinion. He's now
when the paper day, he's a line every day. He's
now on meme. He's gonna be charged. Is he actually
(25:06):
gonna do time? Yeah? I mean stress can kill you,
you know that. Oh yeah, I'm sure that what he's
had to live with was I mean, how do you
even do that? You know?
Speaker 3 (25:21):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
I guess I've been pretty critical of the situation. I
agree with you one hundred percent. I don't think he
intentionally went to work that day, say I'm gonna kill somebody. Sure,
But I guess a lot of my criticism comes from
a I guess I'll start with just what was going
on on set, So just him refusing to take any
(25:43):
responsibility for being a producer and having some responsibility over
the safety on that set. They just had that walk
out that morning. Obviously he didn't load the firearm, but
they also didn't take the proper steps as they should
have for that. And I feel like I started having
a little more sympathy for him after I went to
the RUSS session at Crime Con in Nashville, because the
(26:03):
firearms expert had explained how sometimes with revolvers like that
they could go off a little easier than a regular gun.
If he didn't have good trigger discipline and his finger
was in there and he even pulled back the hammer,
it could have just set it off that easily. So
I feel like when I had a better understanding of
it like that, I felt I definitely started having more
(26:23):
sympathy for the fact. But I guess part B of
this where a lot of my criticism comes in, is
I think, if this happened to somebody, maybe you should
step back from the limelight for a little bit, instead
of then having a reality show on TLC two years
later and showing off your house.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
And they have to now there is that. Yeah, Okay,
let me be really clear. I thought you were literally
just asking about the stress of it. Yeah, and that's
all I was thinking. Oh yeah, I was super critical
when all this first happened. Number one, I mean gun
(27:01):
safety one oh one. You don't point a gun in
another person. That's one. Two. We are told there's no
such thing as an unloaded gun. That's what we're told.
The other thing for me is if you were not
(27:21):
part of the safety like you weren't the armory, you know,
person in charge, you weren't the firearms expert on set,
it's still your job to have them there. And it's
just like whether you're driving a car, you know, through fire.
I mean to me, it seems like you would know
(27:42):
has everything been done, is everything good to go, all
the safety precautions, all the checklists. Well, he didn't do that.
Clearly he didn't do it. Because with a revolver, you
can see whether it's loading yes, so easily, so easily,
So he didn't do that. He did have his finger
(28:03):
on the trigger, he'd pulled the trigger after aiming it
toward that woman, so his action did cause her dead.
Period Again, regardless of his intention, there were mistakes made
to me having live rounds and the blanks next to
(28:24):
each other. Who would do that? And I don't understand
having a live round. I'm just gonna tell you, I
don't understand that at all on set. I don't understand
having live ammunition on the set with a budget actors
for what.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
I cannot believe that happened. I worked on a movie
almost ten years ago in the costume department, and considering
how up our assets they were just about clothing, I
cannot even believe that this was allowed to happen. I mean, clearly,
the armorer was extremely sloppy. There's also questions of about
the supplier of the fake AMMO is so irresponsible on
(29:04):
every single level. But I'm thinking, like, I have a
producer breathing down my neck about bringing a boxing robe
to set, and this guy's a producer on this movie
with firearms, and they're not even being serious about it
at all.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
And I understand there's tons of down time. I understand
y'all want to have some fun, but even I heard
they were, you know, shooting bottles or whatever, like taking
target practice, so they all knew there were live rounds.
Everybody knew it. Well, that's insane to me. Somebody should
have stepped forward and said, wait a minute, y'all, we
(29:39):
actually have live rounds here for what. And to your
point about the wardrobe, there's all kind of rules about dogs,
like you've got to have certain brakes and enough water
and none of them can get hurt. And now they
put that thing. You know, no animals were hurt making
this movie. Well, now you've got this woman shot and
(30:01):
keeled behind a camera over something that should have never
been on set.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
In my opinion, oh one hundred percent. And as far
as his mental health struggle, I completely see how he's
struggling and everything. I just feel like he's open to
criticism because you're you and your wife are all over
television and social media flaunting your lifestyle around and they
have every right to live their life, right, But you're
(30:26):
gonna be open to criticism when you couldn't even take
six months back behind the scenes to try to process
what happened to you and just try to not have
your face all over the news.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
I think it'd be difficult for her husband and child
to watch that child.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Exactly. I don't think it's fair for her family to
have to see that. And obviously we see in many
cases nothing happens to these high powerful people when these
things happen. But I mean, so this lady just gets
no justice because it was negligence. And I'm not even
saying him in particular. I know the armorer had gone
to jail, but I think she's already out. It wasn't
(31:02):
very long. A person is dead, a child doesn't have
his mother. It's terrible.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
No, it's terrible. And again, if you can make me
believe that I'm watching the Titanic sink, certainly you've got
enough talent to make me believe somebody just got shot
without shooting them.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Oh. I don't even understand why they can't figure it
out with CGI today. I mean, I just watched all
the Stranger Things, and they figured it all. They figured
out to make an entire alternate universe. They can figure
out how to make a gunshot go off.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
That's right, absolutely all right.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
So I want to wrap up with this interview by
Brian Coberger's sister. I don't know if you've seen this yet.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
I have not seen it, but hit me, let's talk about.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
It, all right. So the family really hasn't spoken at
all since this happened, but now his sister mel is
talking about what it was like when he was arrested.
So it's kind of insane. She's saying, when she first
heard about the crimes, she went as far to text
him to be careful and was worried about him not
being safe because he wasn't the type of person to
lock his door. And of course he assured her he
(32:12):
was safe because they didn't know he was the person
that did it. So then all of a sudden, the
next month, their other sister calls her and says, yeah,
the police just raided the house and he's been arrested.
I can't even imagine going through this and having it
be my brother who I they couldn't have thought he
was one hundred percent normal. I mean, let's be honest,
(32:33):
but not ye think it's her family member.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Yeah, I think there's already been some statements where the
family knew of certain situations, right, they knew the drug used,
they knew he was unusual, right, I mean, this is
a grown man that has had no significant other. Ever,
that's unusual, and usually there's reasons for that that are
(32:59):
not of your own doing. Right, So they knew how
I think that he was odd. They knew that he
probably said things. And you know, I've said a lot
that you know, for people, what they sometimes tend to
do for a living is because that's what they're fascinated with.
(33:21):
So if you look at somebody that works third shift
of a morgue, not everybody, Please don't email me about
your uncle, earl. But if you are into necrophilia, that's
a good gig. Yes, it's going to give you a access.
If you are a child molester, I'm all Sanna, the
(33:41):
kids are coming to you, Okay. So I'm saying if
you look at what he did, he studied crime. Well
for him, think about what class was like. Listen to
all these different professors, reading all the different books, studying
all the cases that was pouring to him. Literally, I mean,
(34:02):
he couldn't get enough of it. So when you think
of an undergraduate and then a masters and now he's
in this PhD program, he got to think twenty four
hours a day on the thing that fascinated him the most.
So you've got to look at that, and you've got
to look at what he did with it. Now the
(34:23):
good thing for us, And people have asked me a
thousand times, don't you think there's more bodies? Don't you
think he's killed you know, twenty people? No, I do not,
And let me tell you why he ain't no good
at it now. Sadly, he was successful in killing four
(34:43):
innocent people his first time out. But I want to
back up before the murders. He used his own phone,
his own car, his own area. His car is caught
on camera. What thirteen times he got a traffic ticket
(35:05):
in the area after midnight for not wearing a seat belt.
I ain't tell you why the seat belt wasn't on him,
because he was getting in and out of the car,
stalking him and he just didn't re engage it because
that's what he was doing. He was single focused on
looking in that window, and I think he parked up top,
walked down where that second level he could see in.
(35:28):
If you look at how we entered that home, what
did he do first, Maria? He went to the third floor.
That was his target period. Oh the other two sadly,
sadly were you know, like collateral damage.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
It's just so unfortunate. And I think the greater point
the sisters trying to make in this article is talking
about the harassment they've faced as being related to him
really not having any understanding that he could do something
like this. And I think she made a good point
that you know, if they had, if she even suspected
(36:06):
it was him, she would have turned him in, which
I think a lot of family members wouldn't do in
a lot of these cases. And talking about how you know,
their mother has the victim's birthdays on a calendar and
praise for them every single day and thinks of them
every single day, but they're still facing the hardship of
separating this relative they had and loved in their house
(36:28):
from this psychotic killer. And I never really thought about that.
I just thought if you found out your family member
acted that way, you would immediately just also think of
them as a monster, not have trouble differentiating between the two.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
You know, it's one of those deals. For me, I
believed when he made the deal it was to protect
his family, meaning they knew something at some point. You're
talking about a grown man whose dad flew out to
(37:05):
drive back home with him in the middle of what
would have been a semester for what. Yeah, I mean seriously,
how many grown men in a PhD program get their
dad to fly out to drive home with them.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
No, it's unusual, and we can't ignore his history of
his addiction issues.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
That's right. So it's not just addiction. He's weird. Yes, Okay,
and listen, I'm not saying anything about unusual people. But
when somebody has that, Look, when somebody cannot connect. They
have no friends, they have no lovers, they have no
(37:46):
significant other, they have no best friend. There's something going
on with that person. And his family knows it. They've
known for a while.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Absolutely, and I think mentally, maybe even if it crossed
their mind mentally, maybe you're like, I just can't go
there that it's him, right, it's right in the area.
The car matches the description, the perpetrator matches the description.
But I just can't mentally go there. And I don't
want to turn my life upside down if I don't
(38:19):
have to. But some people have to be heroes and
turn their relatives in. And I think it's cool that
she pointed out that if she even thought for a
second it was him, she definitely would have said something.
But I do feel bad about the harassment at the beginning,
because she was talking about how she had just got
this new job as a mental health therapist at a
place and the facility was being bombarded with so many
(38:42):
phone calls by the public and the press that she
had to quit her job.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
And their name is odd, it's unusual. So it's not
like Smith, No, you can just move to Montana and
nobody knows. I mean, Coburger that's going to stick out sadly.
But here's the thing. That's the thing about these crimes.
You know, the ripple effect. Every teacher he had, every professor,
(39:09):
everybody that he graded their paper. It affects every person.
Of course, it's going to affect his family. And I'm
not suggested in any way that they should have gone
from Hey, he's pretty odd. He doesn't have any real
close relationships. He talks about crime all the time. He
talks about BTK and Ted Bundy. But that's what he's studying,
(39:32):
so he should to He probably committed these murders. What
I am saying is whatever conversation he and his dad
had about driving back home, him cleaning his car, like
gets God tray's evidence in it, him taking the trash
out with gloves, you know, like your mom knows you. Yeah,
(39:56):
if you call your mom on the phone the way
you say hello, she knows something wrong immediately immediately. I
guarantee you he don't take the trash out. I guarantee you,
he don't clean his car like that. So they had
to think, what is going on because he's a PhD
(40:21):
level criminologist. These four students have just been murdered, and
it's your sister calling you, not you calling her. Going man,
the crime of the centuries just happened in my lap.
I'm gonna study this. You're not studying it. You're not interested.
And that's all you've talked about for a decade, or
(40:42):
serial killers. All you can talk about is doctor Catherine
Ramsling and now you're radio silent.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
That is unusual, And I mean just the thought of
somebody throwing trash out wearing gloves, it's just really weird
to see in general. Especially she was pinny this portrait
of that Christmas time. They were eating cookies, they were
playing games. It seems like they were all really close.
So yeah, I guess the more you think of it,
it's like, how did they not notice he was off?
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Here's the thing. I don't think you would even be
able to allow yourself to go there, But I think
enough would have been concerning. Yeah, I really do. And
I think the four of them talking, you know again,
(41:33):
why is he coming home? Why? Why does he need
his dad? Why are the police stopping them every thirty
minutes on the highway? Why is he scrubbing that car?
Why is he hiding stuff? And hows he on his
phone constantly?
Speaker 2 (41:49):
It is very weird as a thirty year old person
to have your parent fly to drive all the way
back with you. Why couldn't he have flown back? Why
couldn't he drive by himself? I'm sure he made there
back home many other times, exactly. Definitely really weird, I mean,
and to your point with the comparison with my mom, Look,
when I even called her to tell her I was pregnant,
(42:10):
she knew before I said.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
I just said she had the minute she had to know. Sure, yeah, sure,
And you look beautiful, you look so happy. Oh my gosh,
And let me tell you that little man, oh man,
your sisters and your mama and your grandmama. I mean,
he he don't even know what he's in for.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
I have to tell the listeners that I loved the
idea you pitched for Crime cod Weekend, which was I
give birth on stage of my mom marry It's the
old experience.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Is that not solid gold? People? I mean if that
don't happen, I mean, your mom would be fittest. Here's
what's happening right now.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
It would be definitely, I said, when.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
I get a VIP session, I.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
Said, what I've given birth, She's going to be trying
to take pictures and that no privacy at all.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
She could explained, cut the cord is not hurting anybody.
She's not gonna feel it. It'd be fabulous.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
Oh definitely. Well, you have a new book coming out,
so please tell us about it. I cannot wait to
read it.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
Well, now, listen, let me let me just tell y'all
I am not a writer.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
Now.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
I already mentioned Doctor Ramslin. You know she's got like
seventy books. I don't know how in the world this
one about did me in. But I had a case
and Maria you know it. But it was one of
the most unusual cases that I've ever worked in my
entire career, and I thought well, you know, I've just
(43:44):
got to tell people about it. And then I had
person after person after person say, you've got to write
a book. You got to write a book. So I
tried and guide it and it'll be out in May.
But it's called Swans Don't Swim in a Sewer, which
is something I will tell your listeners that came from
Nancy Grace. So back when I was assigned through the
(44:05):
Crime Commission to the Major Case Division, the prosecutor assigned
to us happened to be Nancy Grace. So both of
our you know, we were both in our twenties running Atlanta,
acted like we knew what we were doing, and we
were looking for a victim of a horrific sexual assault
that was also a prostitute, and we thought, if we
(44:28):
do not get her to court, this guy's going to
walk free because she was the only, you know, connection
we had to all of his crimes. And so we
were going to trip house to crack house to trap
house to the cut looking for and finally this rookie
police officer he was kind of sick of being in
these areas and he said, why are we here, Like,
(44:49):
why in the world or we not maybe in buck
cann Or near the governor's mansion, and Nancy said, well,
swans don't swim in a sewer. Where do you think
we're going to go to be able to solve these crimes?
I mean, it's rarely going to be a preacher or
a jewelry salesman. You know. My world, I deal with
hookers and pimps and drug dealers and burglars. I mean,
(45:12):
that's who I work with. So that's where the title
came from. So the story is about a serial killer
whose daughter was murdered not by him, but by someone else,
and he asked for my help in solving her case.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
That's so awesome. I mean, the details you've shared with
us about this case are incredible so far. I think
you're personally one of the best storytellers I've ever met.
So I think the book is going to be fabulous.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
Well, I appreciate that. I hope so, Sugar, because I'll
tell you, it is a great story, and I hope
I didn't screw it up because it is a it's
a crazy case. It's crazy how Carl and I work together,
and we're unlikely partners, but sometimes I I teach at
the police academy. One thing I tell them is go
(46:03):
to the source. I mean sometimes that's who you gotta
deal with. You gotta deal with somebody that was in
the klan, or somebody that was in the mall, or
somebody that was a serial killer, because they know more
than we.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
So well, thank you so much. It's always a pleasure
talking to you. You're so wonderful and we hope to
see you very soon anytime.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
And congratulates us again.
Speaker 3 (46:25):
Huh, thank you, thank you for listening to mother nos death.
As a reminder, my training is as a pathologists assistant.
I have a master's level education and specialize in anatomy
and pathology education. I am not a doctor and I
have not diagnosed or treated anyone dead or alive without
(46:47):
the assistance of a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website,
and social media accounts are designed to educate and inform
people based on my experience working in pathology, so they
can make healthier decisions regarding their life and well being.
Always remember that science is changing every day and the
(47:08):
opinions expressed in this episode are based on my knowledge
of those subjects at the time of publication. If you
are having a medical problem, have a medical question or
having a medical emergency. Please contact your physician or visit
an urgent care center, emergency room, or hospital. Please rate, review,
(47:29):
and subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube,
or anywhere you get podcasts. Thanks
Mother Knows Dad starring Nicole and Jemmy and Maria QK.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hi everyone, welcome to Mother Knows Death and Happy New Year.
Nicole is still on vacation, so today I'm going to
be joined by the one and only Cheryl mac McCollum
to discuss all the latest true crime news. You may
have heard Mac on our show before her hit podcast,
Stone seven, or during one of her appearances on Crime
Stories with Nancy Grace. In addition to her podcast, Mac
(00:41):
is a crime scene investigator, founder of the Cold Case
Investigative Research Institute, and she has a new book called Swanstone,
Swim and a Sewer, Solving the cold case of the
Flint River Killer's daughter coming out this may please welcome
back to the show. Hi, Mac, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Girl. I'm so glad you found called me. I knew
you would ditch that old brawl one day.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I know, Lick, did you forget you had a job.
She's just not coming back, leaving you with all this
work to do. It's kind of rude.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
That is so rude, so rude. But you're gonna be great.
We're gonna have a good time, Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
We are gonna have a good time. We have a
bunch of true crime stories to cover today. First I
have to ask how your trip to Paris was. It
looked unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
The word we all kept using was just magical. Let
me tell you, I had been to Paris in the spring,
but Christmas time is a new level. I have never
just been so blown away by how gorgeous a city was. Ever.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
That's amazing. I saw that you went to Versailles, and
I believe you went to the say of the heist
at the Loof too, So that must have been awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
That was fantastic. Yes, an interesting there's a portrait at
Versailles where the necklace that was stolen is being worn
in the portrait.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Wow, that's incredible.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Yeah. So there was a lot of just connection there.
Obviously the coronation room, so the crown that was stolen
but recovered because they dropped it. Yeah, you know, but
just to think all of that just I mean, you
can't replace any of it, and you know they just
you know, smash and grab. I mean that's all it was.
(02:31):
It's not some complicated Oceans eleven. It was let's go
in on the second story and bust the case and
grab them and go.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
That's definitely not when the password to the security system
is loof so I don't think that any good protection
in place for.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
That, right. But it's also one of those situations where
it is so busy and so congested all the time
that they could easily get that ladder up there. Nobody
would have looked at them twice because from a tourist standpoint,
you don't know who belongs and who does it, and
you would certainly assume with some type of apparatus like
(03:11):
that and dress like construction workers that they were doing
a job that everybody you know was in on. You know,
but it was eight minutes from ground to get away.
Eight minutes, Oh definitely.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
I mean I went there, god probably fifteen years ago now,
and it was so overwhelming. As you know, you've been
there in the spring and now the winter time. I
went in the summer. It was absolutely chaotic, and I
feel like as a tourist are so overwhelmed by the environment,
you wouldn't even think about any shady business anybody was
up to.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
You would look at it twice. I mean, all of
us are used to construction, whether it's on the roadway
or some building. You don't think to go, man, that
doesn't look right at the loop. You would assume that
forty people would have to know that's going on and
have some type of understanding that there's a permit, that
there's the okay, that they've got cameras in security and police.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Oh yeah, but eight minutes crazy. All right, let's start
off with some true crime news. So I want to
start off with this new claim that the Zodiac Killer
is now linked to the Black Dolia murder. So basically,
this fifty year old man, his name's Alex Baber. He
owns the Cold Case Consultants. He's considered an amateur sleuth
(04:26):
and a self taught cryptog cryptography expert. You know, we're
the worst with pronunciations on this show. So he decides
to take a look at this cipher that the Zodiac
Killer set a newspaper in nineteen seventy and try to
break the code. This cipher says my name is blank,
followed by thirteen symbols. So this guy has been spending
twenty hours a day for the past couple of months
(04:47):
trying to decipher this note. He was initially presented with
seventy one million possibilities and eventually narrowed it down to
this name of this guy that was investigated for the
Black Dolia murder, which is kind of and saying connection
to me, But what are your thoughts on this?
Speaker 1 (05:03):
I'm gonna tell you straight out. I say this all
the time. Civilians solve cases all the time we need them.
The first Zodiac puzzle was solved by a guy sitting
in his dining room table. Oh yeah, okay, so it
can be done. It has been done, so I welcome
(05:26):
any I mean, he doesn't have to call himself an amateur.
He can just say, hey, this is what I did,
this is my background. I've spent twenty hours a day
for all these months. Is it just unimaginable that these
two things are connected in a lot of ways. For
me as a crime scene investigator, as a criminologist, they
(05:47):
do not seem connected to me if you're looking at
the murders, So for me, I want to start there
with you. Yeah, when you look at the murders, just
the murders. Forget the you know, the site, the puzzles,
the codes, forget all that for a minute. Forget taunting
the police, because that does have a factor, It does
(06:07):
have a place But for me, the majority of murders,
especially a serial killer like the Zodiac, clearly was your
mo can change your signature, won't. So the reason for
you killing what you do. That's rarely. I don't know
(06:34):
of a case where it really changes. So again, if
I look at the black, do you she's cutting half,
her bloousband drained, she's got blows to the head, right,
she's put out just where somebody can easily find her
by the sidewalk. She's sexually assaulted. He does things to
(06:58):
her that took a lot of time. Maria. So she had,
you know, rode burns on her risted ankle, she had
a tattoo cut off, she had the blood drained. All
of that took a lot of time. That's real personal
to me. Then when you got Zodiac, he shot people,
He stabbed people. These are couples now in like a
(07:21):
lover's lane. Later there was the cab driver, But I'm
saying for the most part, these were people parking making out.
He doesn't sexually assault anybody. He doesn't torture anybody. He
doesn't tie them up, he doesn't drain their blood, he
doesn't cut them in pieces. That doesn't sound like the
same person at all.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
To me, I agree one hundred percent with you, and
I think he did present some compelling evidence in the
sense of when they're looking at this guy named Marvin Margolis,
he when he was investigated for the crime, he had
lived with Elizabeth short before she had been killed, so
you have that personal element to it. But really the
only connection is that he had been frantically or a
(08:03):
person that it was thought to be involved in the
murders had frantically been driving around to motels looking for
a bathtub, and one of those motels happened to be
called the Zodiac Motel, And that this person also handed
down a firearm to his son that had a similar
symbol that the Zodiac used. But I think when you
look at the case of Arthur Lee Allen as the
primary suspect, I think the evidence as much the circumstantial
(08:26):
evidence alone is much more compelling that would point to
him being the Zodiac killer, not this other guy.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Listen, it's hard when you're doing a case with no
physical evidence, which is what we have here. We don't
have it. We don't have a fingerprim we don't have DNA,
we don't have any of that. Why did you know
the avenger use cement sacks. I don't know, why would
he leave them behind? I don't know was he in
(08:53):
that sedan? You know, it certainly seems like a crime
where this person had to have known her. It seems
that personal to me, it does you know, Zodiac, there's
zero connection to those people, you know. But then you
get into the other stuff where you're like, man, how
(09:14):
many killers taught the police through letters and phone calls? None? Hardly.
I mean, I think we've got Jack the Ripper, we
got Zodiac, we got the Black NAULI That's about it.
I mean, in my forty four years, I've never had
one where anybody sent us a letter where anybody called
us taught us. I mean, I hadn't worked it, hadn't
(09:37):
heard it. So that certainly gets my attention. Obviously, what
was written, how it was written, who it was addressed to,
you know, the over posted stamp, you know, yeah, I
mean I can't deny that part. But I'm saying again
people's motivation for killing and the reason they want to
(09:59):
do it, have to do it almost and then the little,
you know, signature type things, that's paramount to me. So
I have to start with that. I mean, I would again,
I would love some physical evidence. I would love for
some fingerprint to be on one of the letters. I
would love for some type of handwriting to come forward, something, anything.
(10:21):
And you know, the other thing that's interesting to me
is the lapse of time. If this person needed attention
so bad and wanted here's my moniker, I want you
to call me this. And in both situations, the person
named themselves. So that tells you there's some ego in it,
there's some pride in it. He just goes silent for
(10:44):
two decades. That seems odd.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Yeah, And I also agree with you about how long
the crime the Black Dahlia took. It was very personal.
I mean, to train somebody of all their blood, carve
a smile into their face, I just think it's I
think it's the opposite. You would progress into doing more
ritualistic acts like that instead of just being like, I'm
going to take the easy route and just shoot somebody.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
And here's the other thing. Most violent people, Let's say
they start fighting and then they graduate to stabbing, then
they graduate to shooting and actually murdering people. If you've
got somebody and the first murder, we know connected to
this person through their own writing and phone calls. They
(11:29):
have bisected this person, drain their blood, beat them, card
that joker smile, cut the tattoo off and inserted it
in her, sexually assaulted her. Then you downgrade you're.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Less violent exactly.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
I mean, I'm not saying shooting ain't violent. Please do
not send me an email saying I said that. What
I am saying is shooting somebody from a distance that
you don't know, that you don't even put your hands
on them. That is less than what the black doll
you avenger did to his victim. And I don't see
(12:11):
anybody going backwards. Usually, once you've got that taste of blood, baby,
that's it, and you're gonna get more violent and more brazen.
Like look at Ted Bundy. Oh yeah, more violent, more brazen.
He went from strangling to beaten to be head.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Oh absolutely. And I just think in this case, you know,
if you're starting off with seventy one million possibilities and
you're narrowing it down, you could probably find anybody in
this country that's gonna fit the narrative for what you're
looking for.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Sometimes, listen, I did a case that was pretty much
all circumstantial, and it's easy to start convincing yourself. Let
me say it this way. We all have one girlfriend
that decided she was so in love with some because
it was faate, right, but she was making the fate fit. Oh,
(13:06):
we met on the third day of the third month
at three o'clock. It's meant to be maybe, or maybe
it was just you know that loser walked in the
bar at three. I mean, I don't know what to
tell you. So sometimes we can make things fit, you know,
and you're like, oh, that's crazy. He drew some woman
(13:27):
and her name was Elizabeth. That has to be the
black Naulia.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Not necessarily no, And I was looking at it. I
do think, you know, he presents a good case, but
I don't think it quite fits. And I can't ignore
all of the circumstantial evidence against Arthur Lee Allen either,
And I guess in both cases they're technically not solved,
so it's hard to say, and they're decades old, so
(13:53):
we'll probably never know at this point. But you never
know what new technology, what they can.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Pay, and you know, well, God loving for tron I
mean twenty hours a day for three months on something
you're not getting paid to do this sitting what you're
doing for a living, nobody is supporting you to do it.
I appreciate all of it. And who knows, there may
be one more thing that's gonna make this whole, you know,
(14:19):
house of cards fall. He may be closer than we've
ever seen. But I'm just saying, if you start with
the murders themselves, I don't see it.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Oh, definitely, all right. So, speaking of another unusual cold case,
I wanted to talk about the disappearance of this candy heiress,
Helen Brock, who went missing forty nine years ago this February.
So in the fifties, Helen had married Frank Brock, who
was the heir to the Brock candy fortune, and they
were together until Frank's death in nineteen seventy. So fast
forward seven years. Then, sixty five year old Helen reportedly
(14:50):
went to a doctor's appointment in Minnesota, got into a taxi,
went to the airport, flew home to Chicago, her housekeeper
saying he picked her up from the airport, she spent
several days at and then he dropped her back off
at the airport so she could go to her condo
in Florida, but she never got to Florida, and her
friends are saying every time they called the house, the
housekeeper was being extremely shady.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Yeah. So this is a woman that capt a real
tight circle. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Right.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
So she didn't have fifteen people in her house. She
didn't have housekeepers and gardeners and pool people that were
there every day. She basically had one person that she
relied on with all of her things. You know. The
first thing that kind of stuck out for me is
not only did he give different stories to every called,
he failed a couple of polygraphs. That's a little concerning, yes, right, So,
(15:44):
I mean I would love to really know more about
why would she go to another state to a doctor
and what kind of doctor? Was that just part of
her I'm eccentric or was that the best doctor in
the country at the time? What would she go? And
four and then Florida? Did he not travel with her?
(16:05):
Did he not help her set that house up? And
I don't see her as the kind of person that's
gonna do a lot of things alone. I feel like
she's that kind of person that coffee's brought to her.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Oh definitely, her.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Going and making it, so again, I don't see her
taking off to Milwaukee and then Florida all by herself.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
I agree with you too, because I believe I was
reading that at the time of her disappearance her net
worth was around forty million dollars, which, if you think
for the seventies, is astronomical. I didn't even do the conversion,
but I can't imagine. But I agree with you. Wealthy
people of this caliber tend to not do anything alone.
They always have a companion, whether it's a friend or
like in this guy's case, somebody that had worked for
(16:48):
her for twenty years, right, But then you start looking
into him being shady, and then her brother gets involved
as well, and oh, by the way, he's set to
get five hundred thousand dollars in hedance if something were
to happen to her. And then all of a sudden
you find out that the housekeeper's buying a meat grinder
and deep cleaning the mansion in her car, and the
(17:09):
brothers burning journals that she wrote, saying that she would
be embarrassed if people found them. I don't think you're
going to those great lengths of your sister's missing.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
Well, the meat grinder alone should stop people in their trust.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Next.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
I mean, if you want to get rid of somebody,
that's one way to do it.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Oh yeah, And it sucks because this lady sounded kind
of cool there said she was known for her luxury
cars that were pink and purple to mimic the candy colors.
I love to hear that. But the unfortunate part of
the story was her body's never been found. She ended
up being legally declared dead in nineteen eighty four, and
then only for these people to still get money from
(17:48):
her and nobody be arrested for her debt. And we
really don't know what happened.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
And here's the crazy thing. When you look at people
that are worth that amount of money, who can they trust? Yeah? Right, So,
like I had one friend from high school that has
done very very well, super famous, I don't know that
she can trust five people that she didn't know before
(18:14):
that happened. It seems like every single person wants something
from her. Does that make sense? Like, whether it's the
accountant or the lawyer or the new neighbors in the
new fancy neighborhoods, everybody wants something from her. So if
you didn't know them prior to you coming into fame
and fortune. I think that would be one of those things.
(18:38):
You know, you don't let a lot of people in
because they're not there for the right reason. So you
would almost think this man that's been with her for
twenty years, especially after her husband's death. But here's the reality,
what does that do to motive? That kind of accelerates.
Hey wait a minute, now that he's deceased, I'm one
death away from coming into money. Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
I mean, my family's irritated with me talking about this
all the time, but I'm in my gilded age phase
right now. So I just read a book about the
Vanderbilt families and the Astor families from that time, sure,
and what I've pulled from it is that having wealth
of that caliber. Of course, people are like poor them
for being billionaires at the time, but it's a very
(19:22):
lonely life and you can't trust people. And something that
stuck out in the Vanderbilt book in particular for me,
was that Gloria Vanderbilt, you know, had been kidnapped as
a child and it was a very sensitive topic to her,
and one of her closest friends ended up taking the
role of her nanny in a movie later in her life,
and that completely broke her trust. And to just think
your closest friend can even not play you in a
(19:45):
fictional depiction of your biggest trauma in your life. It's
so heartbreaking and upsetting.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
It is heartbreaking because again, she didn't have that many
close friends to start with, exactly because again, of course,
everybody wants to go to her birthday powardy because she's
gonna have ponies and balloon rides and you know, fancy
gifts that they give the guests that come. But that's
not a real friend, you.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Know, No, definitely. So another interesting part of this case
that I saw in the article was that in nineteen
ninety they did exume a body that they thought was hers,
but they later determined it not to be. So of course,
her body's never been found, but she has a grave
site next to her husband. But this is just another
one of those cases we're just never gonna really know
what happened, even though we could assume with the meat grinder,
(20:33):
this guy's pretty guilty.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
I mean, I wish that's something they had, if they could,
you know, get a hold of that thing, because there
ain't no way to clean that if it was used
to dispose of a human body, so that would be
a great source of DNA. Let's say, but again, how
do you get somebody out of a mansion? Well, if
you've got a meat grinder, I mean, that's an easy
get little bitty sacks at a time. Nobody's gonna look
(20:57):
at that. The trash man ain't gonna pay attention. I mean,
that's easy. That's not like a body having to be
rolled up in a rug, you know.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
No, we talked about that a lot with Brian Walsh too,
because it's just like, you know, this case, this guy
is just such an idiot, probably the worst killer ever,
but somehow lucked out that they never found her.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
When you look at what he managed to do wrong,
it's mind boggling. I mean it's almost like has he
never watched a crime movie ever? Has he never listened
to one podcast? Does he not even have common sense?
I mean, this man honestly thought, Hey, I'm such a
(21:38):
you know, crime genius. I'm just gonna pay cash. But
there's a video there, and a video there in a
video watch.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Or just even admitting she did die but it was
naturally And I freaked out Okay, well, boom, I could
even understand dumping a body if you're freaking out, but
to go the great lengths to dismember somebody and dump
their part set friend's sites, Okay, we all totally believe
that's what happened, right right right?
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Well, you know, I mean, she died in the bed,
and I just knew y'all weren't gonna believe that happened,
so I'm gonna make it a thousand times worse than
it ever would have been.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Yeah, and then I feel like there was We just
wrote it up for the website a couple of weeks ago,
and there were so many dumb Google searches that I
made a whole separate PDF because for our subscribers, I
was like, you guys really just don't understand how much
of an idiot this guy was.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yeah, ridiculous. I mean, he's sitting in prison like most
people are probably like, oh man, I got called because
I made one mistake. Every single thing he did was
a mistake everything.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Yeah, But luckily in that case, they had enough to
put him away, because if he got away with that,
that was gonna be absolutely ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Oh yeah, I mean there needed to be some type
of public reaction to that if that had occurred.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Oh, of course, this episode is brought to you by
the Grossroom guys. In the last couple of weeks, we
covered the Brian Walls trial and how absolutely insane that
case is. You wouldn't believe how dumb this guy is,
considering he almost got away with it and his wife's
(23:16):
body was never found, So you're gonna want to check
that out. Also, we are returning with YouTube Live this
Friday's normal scheduled programming, so we can't wait to see everybody.
Head over to the grossroom dot com now to sign up.
All right, So, a couple of weeks ago, Alec Baldwin
went on a podcast and explained how he's still struggling
with trauma after he accidentally shot and killed cinematographer Helena
(23:38):
Hutchins on the set of Rust. What are your thoughts
on this case?
Speaker 1 (23:42):
You know, for all the things that people say that
he is, I mean, we've all heard the voicemail. He
loved his daughter and that sort of thing, and maybe
he's got a temper, maybe he's not the most kind person.
He's not a killer. Yeah, I don't know anything in
his bad background where he was ever physically abusive verbally.
(24:04):
I mean again, we heard the voicemail, but he's not that.
And I think for him, the realization that his action,
whether it was on purpose or intentional, he took a life,
and he took the life of somebody he knew it
(24:26):
doesn't surprise me at all. He's not doing well because
it affected every single aspect of his life. Think about
the people that wanted to be next to him, and
then that happened, and the phone call stopped. Your fake
friends go away immediately, and some of those are probably
(24:46):
people he thought were his friends. And then you know,
the career took a hit. He's going to be sued,
is going to be this whole public opinion. He's now
when the paper day, he's a line every day. He's
now on meme. He's gonna be charged. Is he actually
(25:06):
gonna do time? Yeah? I mean stress can kill you,
you know that. Oh yeah, I'm sure that what he's
had to live with was I mean, how do you
even do that? You know?
Speaker 3 (25:21):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
I guess I've been pretty critical of the situation. I
agree with you one hundred percent. I don't think he
intentionally went to work that day, say I'm gonna kill somebody. Sure,
But I guess a lot of my criticism comes from
a I guess I'll start with just what was going
on on set, So just him refusing to take any
(25:43):
responsibility for being a producer and having some responsibility over
the safety on that set. They just had that walk
out that morning. Obviously he didn't load the firearm, but
they also didn't take the proper steps as they should
have for that. And I feel like I started having
a little more sympathy for him after I went to
the RUSS session at Crime Con in Nashville, because the
(26:03):
firearms expert had explained how sometimes with revolvers like that
they could go off a little easier than a regular gun.
If he didn't have good trigger discipline and his finger
was in there and he even pulled back the hammer,
it could have just set it off that easily. So
I feel like when I had a better understanding of
it like that, I felt I definitely started having more
(26:23):
sympathy for the fact. But I guess part B of
this where a lot of my criticism comes in, is
I think, if this happened to somebody, maybe you should
step back from the limelight for a little bit, instead
of then having a reality show on TLC two years
later and showing off your house.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
And they have to now there is that. Yeah, Okay,
let me be really clear. I thought you were literally
just asking about the stress of it. Yeah, and that's
all I was thinking. Oh yeah, I was super critical
when all this first happened. Number one, I mean gun
(27:01):
safety one oh one. You don't point a gun in
another person. That's one. Two. We are told there's no
such thing as an unloaded gun. That's what we're told.
The other thing for me is if you were not
(27:21):
part of the safety like you weren't the armory, you know,
person in charge, you weren't the firearms expert on set,
it's still your job to have them there. And it's
just like whether you're driving a car, you know, through fire.
I mean to me, it seems like you would know
(27:42):
has everything been done, is everything good to go, all
the safety precautions, all the checklists. Well, he didn't do that.
Clearly he didn't do it. Because with a revolver, you
can see whether it's loading yes, so easily, so easily,
So he didn't do that. He did have his finger
(28:03):
on the trigger, he'd pulled the trigger after aiming it
toward that woman, so his action did cause her dead.
Period Again, regardless of his intention, there were mistakes made
to me having live rounds and the blanks next to
(28:24):
each other. Who would do that? And I don't understand
having a live round. I'm just gonna tell you, I
don't understand that at all on set. I don't understand
having live ammunition on the set with a budget actors
for what.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
I cannot believe that happened. I worked on a movie
almost ten years ago in the costume department, and considering
how up our assets they were just about clothing, I
cannot even believe that this was allowed to happen. I mean, clearly,
the armorer was extremely sloppy. There's also questions of about
the supplier of the fake AMMO is so irresponsible on
(29:04):
every single level. But I'm thinking, like, I have a
producer breathing down my neck about bringing a boxing robe
to set, and this guy's a producer on this movie
with firearms, and they're not even being serious about it
at all.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
And I understand there's tons of down time. I understand
y'all want to have some fun, but even I heard
they were, you know, shooting bottles or whatever, like taking
target practice, so they all knew there were live rounds.
Everybody knew it. Well, that's insane to me. Somebody should
have stepped forward and said, wait a minute, y'all, we
(29:39):
actually have live rounds here for what. And to your
point about the wardrobe, there's all kind of rules about dogs,
like you've got to have certain brakes and enough water
and none of them can get hurt. And now they
put that thing. You know, no animals were hurt making
this movie. Well, now you've got this woman shot and
(30:01):
keeled behind a camera over something that should have never
been on set.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
In my opinion, oh one hundred percent. And as far
as his mental health struggle, I completely see how he's
struggling and everything. I just feel like he's open to
criticism because you're you and your wife are all over
television and social media flaunting your lifestyle around and they
have every right to live their life, right, But you're
(30:26):
gonna be open to criticism when you couldn't even take
six months back behind the scenes to try to process
what happened to you and just try to not have
your face all over the news.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
I think it'd be difficult for her husband and child
to watch that child.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Exactly. I don't think it's fair for her family to
have to see that. And obviously we see in many
cases nothing happens to these high powerful people when these
things happen. But I mean, so this lady just gets
no justice because it was negligence. And I'm not even
saying him in particular. I know the armorer had gone
to jail, but I think she's already out. It wasn't
(31:02):
very long. A person is dead, a child doesn't have
his mother. It's terrible.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
No, it's terrible. And again, if you can make me
believe that I'm watching the Titanic sink, certainly you've got
enough talent to make me believe somebody just got shot
without shooting them.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Oh. I don't even understand why they can't figure it
out with CGI today. I mean, I just watched all
the Stranger Things, and they figured it all. They figured
out to make an entire alternate universe. They can figure
out how to make a gunshot go off.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
That's right, absolutely all right.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
So I want to wrap up with this interview by
Brian Coberger's sister. I don't know if you've seen this yet.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
I have not seen it, but hit me, let's talk about.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
It, all right. So the family really hasn't spoken at
all since this happened, but now his sister mel is
talking about what it was like when he was arrested.
So it's kind of insane. She's saying, when she first
heard about the crimes, she went as far to text
him to be careful and was worried about him not
being safe because he wasn't the type of person to
lock his door. And of course he assured her he
(32:12):
was safe because they didn't know he was the person
that did it. So then all of a sudden, the
next month, their other sister calls her and says, yeah,
the police just raided the house and he's been arrested.
I can't even imagine going through this and having it
be my brother who I they couldn't have thought he
was one hundred percent normal. I mean, let's be honest,
(32:33):
but not ye think it's her family member.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Yeah, I think there's already been some statements where the
family knew of certain situations, right, they knew the drug used,
they knew he was unusual, right, I mean, this is
a grown man that has had no significant other. Ever,
that's unusual, and usually there's reasons for that that are
(32:59):
not of your own doing. Right, So they knew how
I think that he was odd. They knew that he
probably said things. And you know, I've said a lot
that you know, for people, what they sometimes tend to
do for a living is because that's what they're fascinated with.
(33:21):
So if you look at somebody that works third shift
of a morgue, not everybody, Please don't email me about
your uncle, earl. But if you are into necrophilia, that's
a good gig. Yes, it's going to give you a access.
If you are a child molester, I'm all Sanna, the
(33:41):
kids are coming to you, Okay. So I'm saying if
you look at what he did, he studied crime. Well
for him, think about what class was like. Listen to
all these different professors, reading all the different books, studying
all the cases that was pouring to him. Literally, I mean,
(34:02):
he couldn't get enough of it. So when you think
of an undergraduate and then a masters and now he's
in this PhD program, he got to think twenty four
hours a day on the thing that fascinated him the most.
So you've got to look at that, and you've got
to look at what he did with it. Now the
(34:23):
good thing for us, And people have asked me a
thousand times, don't you think there's more bodies? Don't you
think he's killed you know, twenty people? No, I do not,
And let me tell you why he ain't no good
at it now. Sadly, he was successful in killing four
(34:43):
innocent people his first time out. But I want to
back up before the murders. He used his own phone,
his own car, his own area. His car is caught
on camera. What thirteen times he got a traffic ticket
(35:05):
in the area after midnight for not wearing a seat belt.
I ain't tell you why the seat belt wasn't on him,
because he was getting in and out of the car,
stalking him and he just didn't re engage it because
that's what he was doing. He was single focused on
looking in that window, and I think he parked up top,
walked down where that second level he could see in.
(35:28):
If you look at how we entered that home, what
did he do first, Maria? He went to the third floor.
That was his target period. Oh the other two sadly,
sadly were you know, like collateral damage.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
It's just so unfortunate. And I think the greater point
the sisters trying to make in this article is talking
about the harassment they've faced as being related to him
really not having any understanding that he could do something
like this. And I think she made a good point
that you know, if they had, if she even suspected
(36:06):
it was him, she would have turned him in, which
I think a lot of family members wouldn't do in
a lot of these cases. And talking about how you know,
their mother has the victim's birthdays on a calendar and
praise for them every single day and thinks of them
every single day, but they're still facing the hardship of
separating this relative they had and loved in their house
(36:28):
from this psychotic killer. And I never really thought about that.
I just thought if you found out your family member
acted that way, you would immediately just also think of
them as a monster, not have trouble differentiating between the two.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
You know, it's one of those deals. For me, I
believed when he made the deal it was to protect
his family, meaning they knew something at some point. You're
talking about a grown man whose dad flew out to
(37:05):
drive back home with him in the middle of what
would have been a semester for what. Yeah, I mean seriously,
how many grown men in a PhD program get their
dad to fly out to drive home with them.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
No, it's unusual, and we can't ignore his history of
his addiction issues.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
That's right. So it's not just addiction. He's weird. Yes, Okay,
and listen, I'm not saying anything about unusual people. But
when somebody has that, Look, when somebody cannot connect. They
have no friends, they have no lovers, they have no
(37:46):
significant other, they have no best friend. There's something going
on with that person. And his family knows it. They've
known for a while.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Absolutely, and I think mentally, maybe even if it crossed
their mind mentally, maybe you're like, I just can't go
there that it's him, right, it's right in the area.
The car matches the description, the perpetrator matches the description.
But I just can't mentally go there. And I don't
want to turn my life upside down if I don't
(38:19):
have to. But some people have to be heroes and
turn their relatives in. And I think it's cool that
she pointed out that if she even thought for a
second it was him, she definitely would have said something.
But I do feel bad about the harassment at the beginning,
because she was talking about how she had just got
this new job as a mental health therapist at a
place and the facility was being bombarded with so many
(38:42):
phone calls by the public and the press that she
had to quit her job.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
And their name is odd, it's unusual. So it's not
like Smith, No, you can just move to Montana and
nobody knows. I mean, Coburger that's going to stick out sadly.
But here's the thing. That's the thing about these crimes.
You know, the ripple effect. Every teacher he had, every professor,
(39:09):
everybody that he graded their paper. It affects every person.
Of course, it's going to affect his family. And I'm
not suggested in any way that they should have gone
from Hey, he's pretty odd. He doesn't have any real
close relationships. He talks about crime all the time. He
talks about BTK and Ted Bundy. But that's what he's studying,
(39:32):
so he should to He probably committed these murders. What
I am saying is whatever conversation he and his dad
had about driving back home, him cleaning his car, like
gets God tray's evidence in it, him taking the trash
out with gloves, you know, like your mom knows you. Yeah,
(39:56):
if you call your mom on the phone the way
you say hello, she knows something wrong immediately immediately. I
guarantee you he don't take the trash out. I guarantee you,
he don't clean his car like that. So they had
to think, what is going on because he's a PhD
(40:21):
level criminologist. These four students have just been murdered, and
it's your sister calling you, not you calling her. Going man,
the crime of the centuries just happened in my lap.
I'm gonna study this. You're not studying it. You're not interested.
And that's all you've talked about for a decade, or
(40:42):
serial killers. All you can talk about is doctor Catherine
Ramsling and now you're radio silent.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
That is unusual, And I mean just the thought of
somebody throwing trash out wearing gloves, it's just really weird
to see in general. Especially she was pinny this portrait
of that Christmas time. They were eating cookies, they were
playing games. It seems like they were all really close.
So yeah, I guess the more you think of it,
it's like, how did they not notice he was off?
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Here's the thing. I don't think you would even be
able to allow yourself to go there, But I think
enough would have been concerning. Yeah, I really do. And
I think the four of them talking, you know again,
(41:33):
why is he coming home? Why? Why does he need
his dad? Why are the police stopping them every thirty
minutes on the highway? Why is he scrubbing that car?
Why is he hiding stuff? And hows he on his
phone constantly?
Speaker 2 (41:49):
It is very weird as a thirty year old person
to have your parent fly to drive all the way
back with you. Why couldn't he have flown back? Why
couldn't he drive by himself? I'm sure he made there
back home many other times, exactly. Definitely really weird, I mean,
and to your point with the comparison with my mom, Look,
when I even called her to tell her I was pregnant,
(42:10):
she knew before I said.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
I just said she had the minute she had to know. Sure, yeah, sure,
And you look beautiful, you look so happy. Oh my gosh,
And let me tell you that little man, oh man,
your sisters and your mama and your grandmama. I mean,
he he don't even know what he's in for.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
I have to tell the listeners that I loved the
idea you pitched for Crime cod Weekend, which was I
give birth on stage of my mom marry It's the
old experience.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Is that not solid gold? People? I mean if that
don't happen, I mean, your mom would be fittest. Here's
what's happening right now.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
It would be definitely, I said, when.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
I get a VIP session, I.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
Said, what I've given birth, She's going to be trying
to take pictures and that no privacy at all.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
She could explained, cut the cord is not hurting anybody.
She's not gonna feel it. It'd be fabulous.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
Oh definitely. Well, you have a new book coming out,
so please tell us about it. I cannot wait to
read it.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
Well, now, listen, let me let me just tell y'all
I am not a writer.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
Now.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
I already mentioned Doctor Ramslin. You know she's got like
seventy books. I don't know how in the world this
one about did me in. But I had a case
and Maria you know it. But it was one of
the most unusual cases that I've ever worked in my
entire career, and I thought well, you know, I've just
(43:44):
got to tell people about it. And then I had
person after person after person say, you've got to write
a book. You got to write a book. So I
tried and guide it and it'll be out in May.
But it's called Swans Don't Swim in a Sewer, which
is something I will tell your listeners that came from
Nancy Grace. So back when I was assigned through the
(44:05):
Crime Commission to the Major Case Division, the prosecutor assigned
to us happened to be Nancy Grace. So both of
our you know, we were both in our twenties running Atlanta,
acted like we knew what we were doing, and we
were looking for a victim of a horrific sexual assault
that was also a prostitute, and we thought, if we
(44:28):
do not get her to court, this guy's going to
walk free because she was the only, you know, connection
we had to all of his crimes. And so we
were going to trip house to crack house to trap
house to the cut looking for and finally this rookie
police officer he was kind of sick of being in
these areas and he said, why are we here, Like,
(44:49):
why in the world or we not maybe in buck
cann Or near the governor's mansion, and Nancy said, well,
swans don't swim in a sewer. Where do you think
we're going to go to be able to solve these crimes?
I mean, it's rarely going to be a preacher or
a jewelry salesman. You know. My world, I deal with
hookers and pimps and drug dealers and burglars. I mean,
(45:12):
that's who I work with. So that's where the title
came from. So the story is about a serial killer
whose daughter was murdered not by him, but by someone else,
and he asked for my help in solving her case.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
That's so awesome. I mean, the details you've shared with
us about this case are incredible so far. I think
you're personally one of the best storytellers I've ever met.
So I think the book is going to be fabulous.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
Well, I appreciate that. I hope so, Sugar, because I'll
tell you, it is a great story, and I hope
I didn't screw it up because it is a it's
a crazy case. It's crazy how Carl and I work together,
and we're unlikely partners, but sometimes I I teach at
the police academy. One thing I tell them is go
(46:03):
to the source. I mean sometimes that's who you gotta
deal with. You gotta deal with somebody that was in
the klan, or somebody that was in the mall, or
somebody that was a serial killer, because they know more
than we.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
So well, thank you so much. It's always a pleasure
talking to you. You're so wonderful and we hope to
see you very soon anytime.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
And congratulates us again.
Speaker 3 (46:25):
Huh, thank you, thank you for listening to mother nos death.
As a reminder, my training is as a pathologists assistant.
I have a master's level education and specialize in anatomy
and pathology education. I am not a doctor and I
have not diagnosed or treated anyone dead or alive without
(46:47):
the assistance of a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website,
and social media accounts are designed to educate and inform
people based on my experience working in pathology, so they
can make healthier decisions regarding their life and well being.
Always remember that science is changing every day and the
(47:08):
opinions expressed in this episode are based on my knowledge
of those subjects at the time of publication. If you
are having a medical problem, have a medical question or
having a medical emergency. Please contact your physician or visit
an urgent care center, emergency room, or hospital. Please rate, review,
(47:29):
and subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube,
or anywhere you get podcasts. Thanks
Elvis Duran and the Morning Show ON DEMAND News
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