04-16-24 Interview - Mark Meckler - Is A Convention of States the Answer

IS A CONVENTION OF STATES THE ANSWER? A Convention of States can be called when there is a need to make some changes to the Constitution by the people. An Article V Convention as it's called has never happened in the US and many people don't know that The People can demand changes that Congress will not make. The largest push for an Article V convention has been pushed forward by a group that wants a convention to address the following:calling of a convention of the states limited to proposing amendments to the Constitution of the United States that impose fi scal restraints on the federal government, limit the power and jurisdiction of the federal government, and limit the terms of o ce for its o cials and for members of Congress.Seems simple enough and we know Congress will never impose those limits on themselves. Find out about them here and join the rally to get this passed in Colorado on the West Steps of the Capitol on April 25th. Mark Meckler, President and Co-Founder of COS Action joins me today at 1 for a chat. This is a good deep dive into the subject by the Heritage Foundation.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
The Convention of States, an Articlefive Convention of States. If you've never
heard that phrase before today, youare forgiven because a vast majority of Americans
don't realize that one of the mostimportant parts of the Constitution was the section
that gave the people the power toamend the Constitution through a Convention of States.
And this is something that I've knownabout for years, and I'm going

(00:21):
to be perfectly frank. When Ifirst heard about it, I was like,
this is cuckoo for cocoa puffs,Like, who's going to do this?
This is going to be full ofwack of doodle people. It's going
to be out of control. Peopleare going to put all this stuff in
the Constitution. It's going to bea nightmare. But over the last few
years, I have had the opportunityto talk to people involved in the movement
that have slowly moved my opinion,and I've taken the time to educate myself

(00:43):
about what an Article five convention wouldlook like. And I'm pleased to have
president and co founder of the Conventionof States Action Group, Mark Meckler that
joined me today to talk about whatit is, what they do, and
more importantly, what it wouldn't do, which I think is where a lot
of people get hung up. Mark, Welcome to the show. Hey,
thanks for having me. Mandy.That was such a good intro. I

(01:03):
need you to travel and go onthe road with me. That was perfect.
I am a trained professional, solet's be real. But let's start
with you for a moment. Howin the world did you get involved with
a move to do a convention ofstates to amend the Constitution. Well,
it goes back fifteen years to thebeginning of the Tea Party movement. I
was one of the early adopters andco founders of Tea Party Patriots, and

(01:26):
so helped this vast movement. Weswing Congress in twenty ten, and then
by twenty twelve I realized it didn'tdo anything. All those people got eaten
by the swamp. I was readyto just go back to private life and
out of politics because I was sofrustrated. I got introduced to this idea
of calling a convention of state's byGod in the name of Mike Ferris.
He's the founder of the homeschool movementin America. And what he told me

(01:48):
is that I was approaching the problemincorrectly, that I thought that the problem
was a personnel problem only, butthat fundamentally we had a structure problem,
and if we didn't fix the structureof Washington, DC, really didn't matter.
If we kept electing good people,who's going to continue to go down
the drain. He introduced me tothis idea of using Article five to call
a convention to restrain federal power.It took me about an hour of explanation,

(02:09):
and I was in I was lookingfor a way to fix the country.
I'm not a person who wants tocomplain if I can't propose a solution,
and this is the solution that theFramers gave us. Okay, so
let's talk about Article five. Let'sdig deep and have our nerd conversation about
what the Constitution actually provides. Whatis Article five and how does it work?

(02:30):
Yeah, and if people don't knowabout it, I don't blame them.
I'm a lawyer by training. Ididn't know anything about Article five.
Article five is the provision whereby we'regiven the power to amend our Constitution.
It's pretty short provision. There aretwo ways it says we can amend.
One is when two thirds of bothhouses propose an amendment. Then it goes
out to the states for ratification andit takes three quarters to states to ratify.

(02:53):
That's thirty eight states to ratify.And the part that we've never used.
All the amendments have come through congressionalrecommendation. The part that we've never
used is where the states call aconvention. It takes two thirds of the
state's to call a convention. Andthen again it's just a suggestion and it
gets put out to three quarters ofthe states for ratification, same as if
Congress proposed it. So where isI think when I first started talking about

(03:15):
this, and I'm not exaggerating,I think maybe six states had passed the
resolution to call for a Convention ofStates. Where are you now? So
currently forty nine states have introduced it, well, nineteen on the Virgia,
twenty states have passed it. NorthCarolina's passed it through their Senate, are

(03:36):
sorry, through their House, andwe're just waiting for Senate passage. That'll
be state number twenty. So we'rewell over halfway to the thirty four number
we need to get to convention.Now this is where it gets tricky.
Okay, this next question I'm goingto ask you because people have this idea
that if we called the Convention ofStates, we were basically be crapping all
over the Constitution and we would justbe a free for all, and you'd

(03:58):
have the abortion wing and they'd beover there to caudify abortion into the Constitution,
and you'd have you know, lawenforcement advocates trying to do this,
and you'd have these people over heretrying to do this, and it would
just devolve into chaos. How doesthe process work so that doesn't happen.
Yeah, it's pretty simple. Andat first I got to say, if
it were that way, the HeritageFoundation wouldn't have endorsed us, and you

(04:20):
mentioned that before got on there.There's a great Heritage Foundation article about this
why they're in favor of Texas PublicPoliciason favor, Ben Shapiro, Mark Levin
was one of the original movers inthe movement. Obviously, none of those
guys would be open for just crackingopen the Constitution. The way it works
is thirty four states have to agreein advance unlimited subject matter for the Convention,

(04:41):
and they've done so so far.Almost twenty states have said we can
talk about term limits for Congress andother federal officials. We can talk about
fiscal restraints on the federal government thatwould include things like a balanced budget amendment.
And we can talk about restricting thescope and power of the federal government,
meaning things like no more Department ofEducation, no more Department of Energy,
no more National Institute of Health orDepartment of Health and Human Services.

(05:04):
Specific restrictions on federal government authority thatI should have been there in the first
place. So when you go intoconvention, two thirds of the states have
already agreed on those limitations in advance. They will commission their delegates or commissioners
to the convention. Each of themwill have limited authority based on that application.
And then it's important to remember andto me, this is absolutely the

(05:26):
most important part. No matter whatcomes out of convention. It's just a
suggestion, and it takes a supersuper majority or thirty eight states to ratify.
So you would essentially have to convinceand I am on board with all
of these things that you mentioned onehundred percent. You would essentially have to
come up with these literal constitutional amendments, and then they still have to go
through the ratification process in each state. So let me ask you this question.

(05:50):
If the states that don't pass theConvention of States, what is it
a request a petition? What doyou actually call that? It's called resolution,
thank you. Technically speaking, theycall it a resolution. So let's
just say California does not pass theresolution. Do they still get to seat
delegates at the Convention of States.Yeah, this is what's called a general

(06:12):
convention, and it means all ofthe states would be invited to convention.
So we don't expect all thirty usare more than thirty four states to pass
the resolution. We get to thirtyfour, that's what's going to start the
convention, But all the states whodon't pass it, they're going to come
anyway. And I'm fine with that. I mean, I want everybody to
have representation. If we're talking aboutthe people getting together to amend the Constitution,

(06:33):
but when you then have to sendit back in California, would have
the right? Would it go tothe voters to ratify it? Would it
goes through the legislatures? Yeah?There are two ways specified in the Constitution.
One says it can be done bylegislative ratification. The second says by
state ratifying conventions. We're all twentyseven minutes we have, We've used legislative

(06:57):
ratification and its Congress will decide whichone advanced and the state ratifying conventions.
Really it's whatever the state decides thoseare. So either way, the state
legislature will be in control of ratification. So will they also decide who to
send, like who the representatives areto How does that process work? Because
I got to tell you right now, in Colorado it's such a dumpster fire

(07:18):
here that if the governor were tosend people to the Convention of States,
they would literally be useless, asyou know, tits on a workhog.
I mean, it's just not it'sjust not. It would not be productive.
So how are those people sent?Yeah, you know, I think
that's true. Plenty of states.My former home state of California is the

(07:39):
same way New York, New Jersey. The way it works, though,
is the legislature chooses them. Governorhas nothing to do with it. That
doesn't give us any more comfort.In states like California or Colorado right now,
legislature will choose, They'll choose themhowever they want to choose them.
They'll send as many or as fewas they want. Each state gets one
vote. That's really important. Coloradohas the same amount of votes says Texas

(08:00):
or New York. But I thinkwhat's really important to understand is at convention,
the process is not going to haveroom for the crazies. And what
I mean by that is when youhave thirty four states that all have all
agreed in advance, what the potentialframework of the convention is those three areas
I discussed. It doesn't matter ifCalifornia or Colorado or whomever sends crazy delegates

(08:24):
and they want to try to doother stuff that's just not available procedurally within
the Convention. So this texture onour text line said, I don't trust
the Convention of States to preserve theSecond Amendment. And this is exactly the
same issue that I talked about atthe beginning of this. People don't understand
that the Second Amendment is not onthe table in any way, shape or

(08:45):
form. Correct, the Second Amendment'snot on the table. It doesn't fall
within the application. But I wantto give the Texter even more confidence about
this, and this is important.As conservatives, people who love the Constitution,
we have to be rational about stuff. I think we are the rational
side, and so I want youto look at it like this. Currently,
there are twenty nine states, Floridabeing the latest, that have constitutional

(09:09):
carry. It means you can carryyour gun with no permit. There are
twenty four states where you actually cancarry your firearm in the state capitol.
I've done it in a lot ofwhere you're allowed to do it. There
are fourteen states where you're allowed totake a long gun loaded into the state
capitol, slinging it across your backand sit in the gallery and watch the
process. There's absolutely no way,no matter what, you can get thirty

(09:30):
eight states to ratify anything that woulddo away with the Second Amendment. That's
just ridiculous. People say this allthe time. It's really bad. It's
fear mongering. Where that came from, this is super important. It came
from the radical left. This isthe radical left's way of trying to get
us to not call a Convention ofStates. This is the way to use
the Constitution to save the Constitution ifthey can make us afraid to do it,

(09:52):
afraid to use the tool that theframers gave us. Well, look,
the left already amends the Constitution allthe time, through the law and
through the way the courts interpret thelaw and the way the Supreme Court as
over one hundred and fifteen years.We need to use the method that the
Framers gave us, and there's noreason to be afraid of it. So
I'm going to continue to play Devil'sadvocate because I just got another text that
said, there goes our second Amendment. So people really are not getting what

(10:15):
you're saying, Mark, So let'sjust say we're at this convention. I
am playing the role of Colorado becausein Colorado right now, our legislature is
trying to pass some of the mostrestrictive gun laws in the country. We
are going to be disarmed here inColorado if they are successful. So we've
got our idiots from Colorado at theConvention of States and they raise their hand
and they're like, I want aconstitutional amendment about making the Second Amendment not

(10:39):
a thing. What happens. Soif you picture the way a legislature works,
and most of your listeners will knowthis, So there's going to be
somebody up at the front of theroom who was elected by the majority of
the states that are there. Themajority of the states will be Republican states,
because by far that's the majority ofthe states. The President and or

(11:00):
the parliamentarian will gabble that person outof order and then we'll say this is
not germane to this convention, andthey'll move on to recognizing the next person.
It's that simple. Let's just sayI'm wrong and that didn't happen.
I mean, people do crazy thingssometimes. Then you would have to get
the majority of states to agree tothat, to vote it out of the

(11:22):
Convention, and to send it outto states for ratification. That takes twenty
six states. Remember I just saidright now, in the United States of
America, there are twenty nine statesthat have constitutional carrier. How are you
going to get twenty six states tovote it out of convention when twenty nine
states will allow you to carry ahandgun without a permit, Fourteen states allow
you to carry your handgun or yourloaded long gun into a state legislature.

(11:43):
Twenty four states allow you to carryyour gun inside the state legislator or your
pistol. It's just ridiculous and absurdto think that we're going to lose the
Second Amendment. And if you needproof on our website, you can look
up Chuck Cooper. Chuck Cooper spentdecades as the attorney for the NRA suing
on Second Amendment issues on behalf ofthe people, on behalf of gun owners,
and he says, we have waymore to fear from the Supreme Court

(12:07):
in regard to the Second Amendment thanwe do ever to have fear from a
Convention of States. So I wantto be clear again because now I'm getting
questions from people on our text linethat say, will the out of control
judiciary be addressed at all? Theyhave the cond they have been the conduit
of the most non constitutional things we'reenduring. Let me read what the petition
actually says. I have the languagein front of me. If you sign
this petition, this is what you'resupporting. I support Convention of States,

(12:31):
a national movement to call a conventionunder Article five of the United States Constitution,
restricted to proposing amendments that will imposefiscal restraints on the federal government,
limit its power and jurisdiction, andimpose term limits on its officials and members
of Congress. Those are the thingsthat are going to be addressed, right

(12:52):
absolutely. And so where the Court'sfit in that, I think is in
a couple of places. One isin the term limits. They most people
don't think about this. Federal judgesare appointed for life. Every study shows
that the longer that they're in office, the more likely they are to rule
in favor of a bloated and expansivefederal government. Makes sense. Their federal
employees, their staff are all federalemployees. They work in federal buildings,

(13:16):
and so we want to do Ithink we should impose term limits on federal
judges, and that includes in someway on justices of the Supreme Court.
So that's one thing we could do. The second thing it says scope and
jurisdiction. We could literally limit thejurisdiction of the federal courts to things that
we think they should be involved inand cut certain things out of their jurisdiction.
There's precedent for this most people aren'taware of. The Eleventh Amendment was

(13:39):
intended to cut the Supreme Court's jurisdiction. It did so. That was shortly
after the Bill of Rights, soit was very early in our history.
If we think the courts are overstepping, a Convention of States is the way
to rein them in. Mark Beckleris my guest. He is the founder
and president of the Convention of StatesAction Committee, and I put a link
to his website, so if youwant to sign on to this, and

(14:01):
more importantly, I put a linkto a great, great, great white
paper by the Heritage Foundation that answersso many questions about this because I find
it interesting. Mark and I believethat the left would be the ones to
kind of seed the doubt that thiswould get out of control and that we
would lose all of our rights thatwe have, and we'd lose the right
to free speech and the right toassemble or whatever else it is. But

(14:24):
none of that is on the table, and that needs to be clear.
So if you want more information abouthow this would work, I know that
there's been a simulated Convention of Statesthat took place in Williamsburg, Virginia,
which is a perfect place for it. But if you want more information,
educate yourself about this, because Iwill be the first to admit I dismissed
it out of hand for a longtime. But what else are we going

(14:45):
to do. We keep electing peoplethat go to DC and promise to change
things, but then to Mark's point, they just become part of the swamp,
and then they think that the swampis a hot tub, right so
we can change the people going inand out, but the system is set
in their favor. It is setin the favor of corruption, it is
set in the favor of the longeryou're there, you're going to be Nancy

(15:07):
Pelosi, so called public servant,who's worth two hundred and twenty million dollars
on a congress person salary. Imean, that's that's If that doesn't motivate
you, I don't know what is. And they will never pass these limits
on themselves. They will never dothis. They will never restrain themselves fiscally,
they will never restrain the size ofthe federal government. They will never
pass term limits. So this isthe only shot, the only shot we've

(15:31):
got. I mean, is thatfair? Mark? Oh? I think
that's absolutely true. Look, thereare other things we have to do.
We do have to continue to electthe best people we possibly can. We
should be fervently in prayer for thecountry and trying to return the country to
its foundational roots of Judeo Christian values. All of those things are important.
But if we don't find a wayto address the structural problems, we're still

(15:52):
going to lose the fight into peoplewho oppose this. I often ask what's
your solution? Yeah, well youproposing. Usually I get deer in the
headlights, or they say more educationor let good people. My answer is,
well, how's that working for you? And the answer is, well,
it's not. It's not the solution. You can't keep doing the same
thing and expect a different result.We all know that's the definition of insanity.

(16:14):
This is what the Framers gave us. This is what the left is
trying to stop us from using.We've had hit pieces in every leftist publication
over the last year. They're scaredof us. They know this can reign
in the federal government. That's whythis is something we need to do.
I think this speaks to the helplessnessthat most people feel. It's why people
don't think their vote matters, becausethey truly don't see it mattering in the

(16:36):
grand scheme of things. This isa way to make your vote matter in
a big way. So I wouldurge people to at least look at it,
think about it. There is arally on the west steps of the
Capitol on April twenty fifth, Mark, or you're going to be testifying at
the committee hearing. I told Markhe's going to be test testifying at the
kill committee. I'll be surprised ifthey've listen to you. If they don't
just put their heads down on thedesk map while you're while you're talking,

(17:00):
that's how bad it is here.So my co founder Mike Ferris, will
be testifying there. Look, Itestifying from the hostile committees all the time.
I love doing it. It's achallenge, it's enjoyable. Usually they
grill us in some way. Soyeah, I'll be there. I don't
care whether it's a kill committee ornot. Look, we have seen this
resolution move forward in legislatures where youcan't believe it. It move forward in

(17:22):
Hawaii through committee this year. Wehave five Democrat sponsors. There's no Republicans
in the Hawaii Sanate. We hadfive Democrat sponsors. We came out of
that committee. We came out ofcommittee in Massachusetts, actually two committees where
it was thirteen to two Democrat toRepublican. Because people are realizing across the
aisle, DC's out of control,and it's out of control whether we have

(17:45):
a Republican administration or Democrat administration.I say that as a true blue conservative.
The federal government grows under every singleadministration. Regardless of who's running it,
it's going to be up to wethe people to restrain it. So
I will be at the rally that'son the twenty fifth at eleven am on
the West steps of the Capitol.So come on out, learn more,
meet me. I'm happy to seeeverybody there again. That's the twenty fifth

(18:07):
on the West steps of the Capital, eleven am. Mark Meckler. I
appreciate your time today and I appreciatewhat you're doing, and hopefully the movement
continues to grow. Thanks for havingme. All right, that's Mark Meckler
with the Convention of States, andyou can find out more information on the
blog today. And like I said, I was so skeptical of this for
so long, but y'all, whenare we just going to recognize they're never

(18:30):
going to fix it. And ifyou want to know why we have inflation
that is out of control, it'sbecause we're running deficits of one point one
one point two trillion dollars like it'snothing, nothing, and we're talking about,
well, we got to sit anotherforty million, forty billion to Israel,
gots in another forty billion to Ukraine. My god, we're bankrupting this

(18:53):
country. And this is the onlychance we the people have to make this
happen. Because it doesn't matter whowe elect, they are never going to
institute these changes on themselves because Congressuses our money to buy themselves votes,
Congress uses our tax code to buythemselves votes. Congress uses insider trading to

(19:15):
make themselves rich. And I,for one, am over it. I'm
sick of it. I'm tired offeeling like nothing I say, or think
or do matters. So think itover and when we get back, I
will make a point. I justsaw this question. The difference between an
Article five Convention of States and aconstitutional convention are completely different. This is

(19:37):
just about proposing amendments, not trashingthe constitution, so totally different. Hi,
Mandy. If we term limit,do we also reduce their lifetime benefits?
Well, we could make that happenat a Convention of States, Texter,
we could do that. Let's makeit happen together now when we get
back. I got a couple oflocal stories. Doug Co and El Paso

(19:59):
County are suing this state. AndDenver Public Schools superintendent forgot that the middle
name there is public and he worksto hide stuff from the rest of us.
We'll talk about that next