Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
My next guest, totally unrelated to the spear jam bands
or the Grateful Dead, is on to talk about something
that happened, and in the flurry of activity, this one
slid right past me and I didn't even see it.
On day two of the Trump administration, the FDA withdrew
its proposed menthol cigarette ban, citing enforcement concerns and potential
unintended consequences. And enjoining me now to talk about it
(00:22):
is Brian Knuckles, a Youngian psychotherapist turned journalist and policy
writer and a Young Voices contributor. He just wrote an
op ed about this decision. And Brian, first of all,
welcome to the show. And second of all, you're actually
arguing that this is a victory for harm reduction by
not banning menthol cigarettes. Explain that to me.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Absolutely. Mandy, first of all, a big fan of the show.
I'm so excited to be here, and absolutely I want
to talk about, yeah, how bureaucratic, top down bands often
lead to unintended consequences. If you want to reduce harm,
hitting the FDA and golf is probably the worst thing
you could do. And this Trump's reversal of this band
(01:08):
is a huge win for harm reduction, public health and
agency for people as well.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
I thought this ban when the Biden administration was talking
about banning specifically menthol cigarettes, like, everybody knows that there
is a stereotype exists, and it exists for a reason
that African Americans seem to smoke menthol cigarettes at a
higher rate than white people. And you know what, every
black person, this is anecdotal. Every black person I know
(01:35):
has always smoked Newports if they were smoking. So in
my world, there was some truth to that. And when
I found out Biden was just going to ban menthol cigarettes,
I thought, how patronizing to black people to essentially say
you're making this bad choice, we don't like it, so
we're going to take away what you do like and
hope that you stop. Wasn't that wasn't that kind of
(01:56):
the end game that they were going for.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
I mean, you speak about it being in a buildal
with This was a stated directive coming from the Biden
administration that we can protect we know better than the
black community. They can have the cigarettes because they'll die.
This was stated in the FBA's policy briefs. So you're
absolutely right, and I do agree there, you know, I
explored from a kind of pragmatic lens and the piece,
(02:23):
but I mentioned that at the end, I mean from
a liberty nanny state perspective, these bands are pretty offensive
and to particularly target black people, I agree, it's very patronizing.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
So when you talk about harm reduction when it comes
to smoking, we recently went through this with Zin and
you had the Denver City Council trying to ban flavored
vaping because they're like, oh, the children or whatever. But
the reality is is that those non tobacco methods of
getting nicotine are used by a lot of people to
quit smoking. How is menthol or mental cigarettes? How would
(02:59):
that be used in harm reduction if anyway?
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Well, how I like to think about it is there's
kind of two dimensions to harm reduction. One is we
accept human nature. People like to smoke. Whether you find
it gross or you don't like it, or you wish
your parents didn't smoke, people will smoke. It's part of
accepting human nature. People over the world smoke, So there's
that aspect of it, and so just kind of accepting
(03:26):
that at framing and no matter what Michael Bloomberg or
Joe Biden says, people are probably going to smoke, and
that's the way it is. So that's one dimension. And
then there's also choice based strategies to mental health and
recognizing with innovations, if we get the venture capitalists and
the money behind things, we will innovate. And if you
(03:49):
trust trust the free enterprise method, people don't like to die,
you know, so people will probably people will choose over
time healthier solutions. And so yeah, the metthol My connection
to menthol was just one, people like menthol, so banning
it befo. We're just going to get it ellestively. And
(04:10):
two the mechanism of mental the coolness, yes, love it.
It's yeah, that's something interesting that we can maybe learn
from for safe for alternatives. I got to think that.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
And to your point that there are always going to
be people who are going to smoke, I would say,
at this point in our society right think about it.
We all know smoking is bad for us. We all
know smoking causes lung cancer and emphasema. We know it
causes COPD, we know that it smells, it makes you
look old, it ages your skin. And yet even though
we've raised taxes to where cigarettes last time I looked,
(04:46):
we're like nine to fifty in Colorado, we still have
a percentage of the population that is still smoking.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
So what in the world are.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
You going to do that is going to make that
population stop. They're either going to get sick, they're going
to get broke, right, and that's why they're going to
stop smoking. Those are the only two reasons. So to
act as if somehow more government intervention is going to
get those hardcore I call them lifers right, their lifers,
they're lifetime smokers. It's not going to work. It has
to come from within them, and they're going to work
(05:15):
around the government. I do want to talk to you
about how these menthal bands could potentially create a black market.
Tell me about that.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Well, there's a lot of evidence that this happened. So
this national ban isn't coming out of nowhere. It's been
tried in California and Massachusetts, and the evidence is clear
people did not stop smoking month als cigarette. So the
illicit markets emerged, you know, like they often do when
(05:46):
you ban something that people like, Unlicit markets emerged and use. Actually, ironically,
in Massachusetts, the stated intention, like you mentioned earlier, was
to prevent black people from smoking mental slightly, very slightly
less than one percent decrease in overall or use of menthols,
(06:06):
but among black women and kick there there's like a
forty percent increase and they're still trying to figure that
one out.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Well, I think that becomes a status symbol. It's kind
of like people who for years and years and now
it's not as much a big deal because Cubas opened
up a little bit. But man, I lived in Southwest
Florida and there were men who had boxes of Cuban
cigars that I mean, they walked around with these things
under their arm like they were like a trophy, and
there was a trophy aspect to it, because then it
(06:33):
becomes contraband, right, so now you've made it cool. You've
made it like rebellious to have a pack of Newports,
which is so ridiculous. But I always think of Eric Garner,
and I don't know if you remember Eric Garner in
New York City, but Eric Garner was selling, as they
call him, in New York loosies because cigarette taxes in
New York are so oppressive. I think cigarettes there are
(06:55):
like twelve to fifty a pack. So it created this
black market where people would stand and sell loose cigarettes
and ended up with him being taken to the ground
in by police and a choke cold in him dying.
And so that's the kind of unintended consequences that you're
talking about. And I think that anytime you tell grown
ass adults who should be able to make their own choices,
(07:15):
that we're not going to let you have something, it
just makes it more popular than it did before.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Yeah, it's a great it's a very incisive point. You
make an idea about the Eric partner. I actually hadn't
put that together, but great point. A death another death
that we can attribute to the state. Absolutely, I have
to admit that when if the state tells me how
to do something, I am very myself very likely to
start doing it. I think the red rulves amongst us
(07:42):
will find that appealing.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Well, you know, I hope everybody stops smoking. I'm a
former smoker, so I you know, I always hope that
people decide to spend their money on something more worthwhile,
like anything else. But ultimately, as a libertarian, small libertarian,
I'm gonna I'm gonna fight for you're right to continue
to smoke.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
I really am. I hate it. I hate the.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Habit, but people should be allowed to make their own decisions.
Brian Knuckles is my guest. Thank you so much for
making time for me today.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Brian absolutely, Mandy, it's a pleasure. In good luck, I'll
see you soon
My next guest, totally unrelated to the spear jam bands
or the Grateful Dead, is on to talk about something
that happened, and in the flurry of activity, this one
slid right past me and I didn't even see it.
On day two of the Trump administration, the FDA withdrew
its proposed menthol cigarette ban, citing enforcement concerns and potential
unintended consequences. And enjoining me now to talk about it
(00:22):
is Brian Knuckles, a Youngian psychotherapist turned journalist and policy
writer and a Young Voices contributor. He just wrote an
op ed about this decision. And Brian, first of all,
welcome to the show. And second of all, you're actually
arguing that this is a victory for harm reduction by
not banning menthol cigarettes. Explain that to me.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Absolutely. Mandy, first of all, a big fan of the show.
I'm so excited to be here, and absolutely I want
to talk about, yeah, how bureaucratic, top down bands often
lead to unintended consequences. If you want to reduce harm,
hitting the FDA and golf is probably the worst thing
you could do. And this Trump's reversal of this band
(01:08):
is a huge win for harm reduction, public health and
agency for people as well.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
I thought this ban when the Biden administration was talking
about banning specifically menthol cigarettes, like, everybody knows that there
is a stereotype exists, and it exists for a reason
that African Americans seem to smoke menthol cigarettes at a
higher rate than white people. And you know what, every
black person, this is anecdotal. Every black person I know
(01:35):
has always smoked Newports if they were smoking. So in
my world, there was some truth to that. And when
I found out Biden was just going to ban menthol cigarettes,
I thought, how patronizing to black people to essentially say
you're making this bad choice, we don't like it, so
we're going to take away what you do like and
hope that you stop. Wasn't that wasn't that kind of
(01:56):
the end game that they were going for.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
I mean, you speak about it being in a buildal
with This was a stated directive coming from the Biden
administration that we can protect we know better than the
black community. They can have the cigarettes because they'll die.
This was stated in the FBA's policy briefs. So you're
absolutely right, and I do agree there, you know, I
explored from a kind of pragmatic lens and the piece,
(02:23):
but I mentioned that at the end, I mean from
a liberty nanny state perspective, these bands are pretty offensive
and to particularly target black people, I agree, it's very patronizing.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
So when you talk about harm reduction when it comes
to smoking, we recently went through this with Zin and
you had the Denver City Council trying to ban flavored
vaping because they're like, oh, the children or whatever. But
the reality is is that those non tobacco methods of
getting nicotine are used by a lot of people to
quit smoking. How is menthol or mental cigarettes? How would
(02:59):
that be used in harm reduction if anyway?
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Well, how I like to think about it is there's
kind of two dimensions to harm reduction. One is we
accept human nature. People like to smoke. Whether you find
it gross or you don't like it, or you wish
your parents didn't smoke, people will smoke. It's part of
accepting human nature. People over the world smoke, So there's
that aspect of it, and so just kind of accepting
(03:26):
that at framing and no matter what Michael Bloomberg or
Joe Biden says, people are probably going to smoke, and
that's the way it is. So that's one dimension. And
then there's also choice based strategies to mental health and
recognizing with innovations, if we get the venture capitalists and
the money behind things, we will innovate. And if you
(03:49):
trust trust the free enterprise method, people don't like to die,
you know, so people will probably people will choose over
time healthier solutions. And so yeah, the metthol My connection
to menthol was just one, people like menthol, so banning
it befo. We're just going to get it ellestively. And
(04:10):
two the mechanism of mental the coolness, yes, love it.
It's yeah, that's something interesting that we can maybe learn
from for safe for alternatives. I got to think that.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
And to your point that there are always going to
be people who are going to smoke, I would say,
at this point in our society right think about it.
We all know smoking is bad for us. We all
know smoking causes lung cancer and emphasema. We know it
causes COPD, we know that it smells, it makes you
look old, it ages your skin. And yet even though
we've raised taxes to where cigarettes last time I looked,
(04:46):
we're like nine to fifty in Colorado, we still have
a percentage of the population that is still smoking.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
So what in the world are.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
You going to do that is going to make that
population stop. They're either going to get sick, they're going
to get broke, right, and that's why they're going to
stop smoking. Those are the only two reasons. So to
act as if somehow more government intervention is going to
get those hardcore I call them lifers right, their lifers,
they're lifetime smokers. It's not going to work. It has
to come from within them, and they're going to work
(05:15):
around the government. I do want to talk to you
about how these menthal bands could potentially create a black market.
Tell me about that.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Well, there's a lot of evidence that this happened. So
this national ban isn't coming out of nowhere. It's been
tried in California and Massachusetts, and the evidence is clear
people did not stop smoking month als cigarette. So the
illicit markets emerged, you know, like they often do when
(05:46):
you ban something that people like, Unlicit markets emerged and use. Actually, ironically,
in Massachusetts, the stated intention, like you mentioned earlier, was
to prevent black people from smoking mental slightly, very slightly
less than one percent decrease in overall or use of menthols,
(06:06):
but among black women and kick there there's like a
forty percent increase and they're still trying to figure that
one out.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Well, I think that becomes a status symbol. It's kind
of like people who for years and years and now
it's not as much a big deal because Cubas opened
up a little bit. But man, I lived in Southwest
Florida and there were men who had boxes of Cuban
cigars that I mean, they walked around with these things
under their arm like they were like a trophy, and
there was a trophy aspect to it, because then it
(06:33):
becomes contraband, right, so now you've made it cool. You've
made it like rebellious to have a pack of Newports,
which is so ridiculous. But I always think of Eric Garner,
and I don't know if you remember Eric Garner in
New York City, but Eric Garner was selling, as they
call him, in New York loosies because cigarette taxes in
New York are so oppressive. I think cigarettes there are
(06:55):
like twelve to fifty a pack. So it created this
black market where people would stand and sell loose cigarettes
and ended up with him being taken to the ground
in by police and a choke cold in him dying.
And so that's the kind of unintended consequences that you're
talking about. And I think that anytime you tell grown
ass adults who should be able to make their own choices,
(07:15):
that we're not going to let you have something, it
just makes it more popular than it did before.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Yeah, it's a great it's a very incisive point. You
make an idea about the Eric partner. I actually hadn't
put that together, but great point. A death another death
that we can attribute to the state. Absolutely, I have
to admit that when if the state tells me how
to do something, I am very myself very likely to
start doing it. I think the red rulves amongst us
(07:42):
will find that appealing.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Well, you know, I hope everybody stops smoking. I'm a
former smoker, so I you know, I always hope that
people decide to spend their money on something more worthwhile,
like anything else. But ultimately, as a libertarian, small libertarian,
I'm gonna I'm gonna fight for you're right to continue
to smoke.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
I really am. I hate it. I hate the.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Habit, but people should be allowed to make their own decisions.
Brian Knuckles is my guest. Thank you so much for
making time for me today.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Brian absolutely, Mandy, it's a pleasure. In good luck, I'll
see you soon
The Mandy Connell Podcast News
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.