January 7, 2016 • 38 mins
Body language is how you communicate without words. Some say it bears more impact in communication than speaking words. Learn about how you say what you say could mean more than you think.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This episode is brought to you by Square Space. Start
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off square Space. Build it beautiful. Hey, guys, we are
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(00:21):
likely probably yes, from the waist down at least. Right
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I guess I'll never forget. He just wore a shirt
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(00:41):
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(01:02):
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as is our tour. Yes, and uh go check it out, man,
we'll see in January. Right, yes, you got any other tidbits? No? Okay,
welcome to you stuff you should know from House stuff
Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
(01:29):
Josh Clark. It's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. Cherry's in the house.
We're back to basics. Yeah, we're doing a social sciences episode. Man,
I mean we're all right, man, we get to tear
it apart. You you believe in body language? Sure, watch this.
You're winking and shouldering and nodding your head and you're
(01:50):
loosening up and you're doing some weird biting thing. What
did I say? You said, I'm feeling silly. It's exactly
what it is. How about that? Yeah? It said I've
had a diet mountain dew and I'm pepped up. Okay,
that's what I was saying. Now I'm crashing and he's down.
(02:10):
Are you doing good? Yeah? I'm hanging on by a thread.
Are you sure we can make it through this? Man?
You you can do this in your sleep? Okay, don't
go to sleep. Okay, it would be so boring. You
could theoretically do this in your sleep. Yeah, okay, I
got you. Yeah, um, so body language it is a thing.
When I was researching, I was like, this is junk science.
(02:33):
There's no way this is real. And I could not
find anything that just said like, yes, body language is
obviously junk science. Apparently it's very well established and well reputed.
I mean I understand, like, like, yes, there is such
thing as body language included in the evolution. It's basically
evidence of evolution from an animalian ancestor. But the idea
(02:57):
that like you can read somebody, especially like that facial
coding system, it just struck me as really like junkie. Yeah,
well we did Um I could have sworn we had
done this one when I did. Yeah, we did that,
and I think two thousand nine, and I don't remember
how I weighed in on it back then. So I'm
just gonna start a new and maybe it may be
a different take. I have no idea. People grow and
(03:19):
change their opinions evolve, you know. Well here's what I think.
Of course, body language is real and it can tell
you a lot. I can tell you a lot, but
it can also miss you can be misdirected very easily.
And uh, I mean we'll get to it. But I
found some stuff from a former FBI guy. Even uh,
(03:39):
it doesn't say it's junk science, but he's like, you
can fool somebody to if you're a sociopath. You know
this about body language of expressions. Apparently it's a myth that,
uh that's how I get by. Apparently it's a myth
that uh ikon or not having eye contact means deception. Um,
(04:00):
while it can. His whole point is they've done studies
over the years and habitual liars, h and anti socials
in psychopaths have the most eye contact probably because there's
that myth exactly. So it's like a self fulfilling myth. Yeah,
Ted Bundy was probably like, I gotta make great contact
with everyone into otherwise the jig will be up and
(04:22):
I won't get to kill people any longer, my favorite thing.
And then so, yeah, there's a lot of myth. There's that.
There's that one myth also where like you look up
into the right or up into the left of your
lying or recalling Yeah, I can't remember, we don't. We
debunked that and something here they're a while back. Yeah,
I think I think body language is fun to talk
about and study, but when you're convicting someone and as
(04:47):
a jury based on micro expression. Yes, there's where the
junk science comes in from me, it gets a little dangerous,
and not just with body language. Who we need to
do a whole episode on forensics in general and just
how junkie the science that most of it is based on.
It's basically the only thing that's that's less standing is
d n A and even that can be wildly misinterpreted.
(05:10):
And we're using this to like execute people, and there's
a big problem with it. So I think we've arrived
at my problem with it. It's junk science when you
apply it for like law enforcement. Yeah as fact, Yeah, agreed, Okay,
So can we be done. This is the other thing
that got me to um Albert uh Mehrabian. I totally
(05:32):
nailed that guy's name. I bet the h is silent
Arabian Arabian. I bet it's just Arabian, not Arabian anyway.
Uh Dr Arabian back in said that in the first
four minutes of meeting someone, our facial expressions account for
(05:54):
the impression we make. Seven percent of that impression comes
from our actual words, while the remainder of the information
from a tone of voice. Yeah, he does think is
what made me think like, no, this is all Yes, Yeah,
because it sounds who can who can say that? You can't?
Maybe one you could get away with that crap not
in two tho you lived in the past. Uh. Yeah,
(06:17):
Morabian was he's He was probably one of the first
researchers to study this in the nineteen forties out of U. C.
L A and UM. I agree, you can't just break
down percentages. I think what he really means to say,
if I may speak for him, is facial expressions in
tone of voice account for a lot of a lot
(06:39):
of what you're getting out of a person. And I
don't think anyone would disagree with that. And the words
account maybe for even less than those two things combined.
I think people would agree with that too. I think
it's when you quantify it seven. He just said that
just because it sounds authoritative. Yeah, because he like he
fed it into the percentage three maker three thousand and
(07:00):
and it spit it out. Uh. But that is not
to miss the point that communicating UM inadvertently is something
that we all do through body lane. Sure. Yeah, there's
a there's a great quote I ran across on a
psychology today post um it was. The quote comes from
a sixteenth century Scottish mathematician named John Napier, and he said,
(07:23):
if language was given to men to conceal there, oh
you found it too. Hunh. It's about as good a
quote of body language as you can come up with.
You do it, chuck now you you already do better.
Sixteenth century Scottish do Sean Connery reading this, man, if
language was given to men and shield their faults, then
(07:44):
gestures pish was to disclose them. That's perfect, it's not bad.
That was dead on John Napier. It's not as good
as my crystal fault. So Napier makes a pretty good point, like, yeah,
you can. Language has all sorts of str sure and
can be mastered body languages. Much of it is is
(08:04):
just inadvertent and we don't even realize necessarily when you're
picking up on it. You just get this weird gut
feeling that uh no, I don't trust this car salesman,
or I want to give this car salesman all my
money depending on the body language. Yeah, and um, it's
pretty clear that this started a long time ago, like
it predates language because who wrote this By the way,
(08:27):
this is a Patrick Kaiger joint. Oh kaigeru Kaiger says
um rightfully that it took took's age. You didn't have
a lot of time to suss things out, like up
close and personal. You know, once you got close enough
within striking distance, you can be stricken. Yeah, you might
already have that club upside your head or that rock
(08:49):
in your face. Yeah, so you needed to judge someone's
body language as they approach you to survive. Yes, you
know so, so body language makes sense. And you would
also presuppose that since we are descended from animals and
animals clearly do engage in body language. Um, that body
(09:11):
language would be older than language, although this this article
says that language didn't exist until about a hundred thousand
years ago, so it's under dispute. Possibly as much as
a million years ago, people were using some sort of
verbal communication. Yeah, and Neanderthals apparently also head language. Probably interesting,
It is pretty interesting. I'd like to do one on
(09:31):
um animal communication, have we not? I think we touched
on it here and there, But I know there's a
lot of things like cats purring and tails wagging on
dogs that are misinterpreted. Um. Or like a wolf growling.
I think that means compet me. You know, it's often
misinterpreted as a warning, Come take this stink out of
(09:51):
my mouth if you dare. Uh should we take a break?
All right, let's take a quick one, and we're gonna
get back and explain a little bit more about what
one researcher calls thin slices of experience. So Josha said
(10:23):
something about thin slices of experience, And I'm not talking
about the uh the roast beef line at the buffet,
which is great, thin slices. The carving station? Yeah? Yeah,
Have you ever worked at carving station? Have I ever
worked one? Yeah? I've hung around one long enough that
I basically should have been paid, But I was just eating.
What do you wait for the next uh roast to
(10:45):
come out so you can get the incut? I know,
I've never been into and cuts, whether it be a
loaf of bread or cut of meat. Oh really like
a prime rib in cut? Yeah? No, daddy, that's good.
Isn't it all salt? Maybe that's why I love it?
You like the salt? Yeah? Yeah. To me, it's like
the closer you get to the middle, the juicy here it, yeah,
(11:08):
and a little a little rarer in the middle obviously. Yeah.
So I think that's my problem with the end of anything.
It's undercooked. You know about White people don't like to
eat the crust because it's called crust, And that might
be part of it. If like a hundred years ago
they named it like the butterfly Yeah, the butterfly slice,
(11:29):
people would have been like fighting for it, like the
butterfly slice is delicious. Yeah. Have you ever heard George
Carlin's little take on that end slice that everybody always
goes past. They're like, I'm not gonna eat that. That's
the poison piece of bread. I'll leave that for my
family to eat. Wait, I guess the NPS didn't called
the crust, so is it. The crust is what's around.
(11:51):
But it's all crust. That's the problem with you know
what I mean, it's nothing but crust. Yeah, not butt crust,
it's nothing but crust. I think the other weird man,
this is a jerus, This is a strange tangent um.
I think the other problem with the bread end pieces
is that eating one end piece with a regular slice
(12:12):
is a little weird, but getting that other slice off
the tail end is not very feasible or efficient to
make two crust pieces. No, but that frequently is the
last sandwich that's made out of the loaf because that
one end piece has been hanging around. And then I
finally mate, yeah, and then you stick some turkey in
(12:34):
it and weep quietly while you eat your terrible sandwich. Man,
thin slices. Where were we experience? Yes, this is a
professor of psychology name uh Nalini Embody and Batty from
Toughs University. Shout out to my buddy Robert Shahade from
(12:54):
high school. He works at tough Speaking of you know,
there's a kid with like a really huge hit single
out right now from your high school. Really, I think
your high school is shown in the music video. It's
um watching Me whip watch Men. It's reed in weird silento.
So I'm no longer the most famous person from high school.
(13:16):
You were until about it six months ago, and I
will be again in another six months. Maybe it's a
pretty pretty catchy single. It's a hot, hot, hot track. Now.
We actually we had several professional athletes that are much
more popular than me. We had a professional punter actually
maybe before Yeah, we haven't. We've had a few. There's
(13:37):
a baseball player, uh in, a puncher. Travis Tritt went
to my high school. Shut up really, see that's a
big nimee, Travis. Yeah, I don't have any like superstars.
Luke Brian went to UMIs High School. Man, you guys,
where'd you go Beverly Hills to uh? Oh boy, here
(14:01):
we go again. Thin slices from tough University. Well, let's
let's talk about the thin slices thing, man, um the
you said earlier that it would be very advantageous evolutionarily speaking,
to be able to read maybe the rough intentions of
some other hunter gatherer a hundred thousand years ago, read
(14:23):
the room like from a distance before they could hit
you with a rock, right, if that was their intent. Well,
just as much you want to be able to like
walk through the world and be threatened by stuff and
to make snap judgments about it based on things like
body language. Same thing, and this this is what the
thin slices has to do with. Yeah, they're just those
(14:43):
first few seconds when you meet somebody. And I mean
some people may just call it a gut instinct about somebody,
but what you're probably doing is reading body language. That's
what that gut instinct is. Yes, and those things are
processed and generated. And I think the Olympic system where
emotions and feelings are processed in the brain. Yeah, Olympics system.
From what I understand, that's right, which um, she thinks
(15:07):
and I agree with her. That might explain why we
have such uh, such like a powerful gut instinct about
some people when we first meet them, because it's tied
to emotion. Yeah. And the whole point is is, uh,
this guy will cut your throat if you turn your
back on him. Right, Probably not, but in our modern
context it's you know, this guy will inflate the price
(15:31):
of the car you want to buy if you if
you're not careful. It's it's this totally different things, but
it's based on the same principle. It's all based on
body language, and we're able to make snap judgments that
we can't even stop and really analyze what it was
that person did or what it was about him. We
just know that we trust him or don't, or we
feel comfortable aroun him or not, we fear them or
(15:52):
we don't, based on this body language. And what this
professor is saying is we have a very ancient part
of our brain that that is responsible for processing this stuff. Yeah,
and I think, um, just for me personally, I think
if you try to focus on that too much, then
you're not doing yourselves any favors. Like let it be anate. Well, yeah,
(16:13):
there's some people who coach this kind of stuff that
apparently say no do all sorts of crazy weird stuff,
which we'll talk about later. Yeah, I agreed. But what
you're looking at, um are There's three different categories I
guess um innate learned and some that are both hybrid. Uh,
(16:33):
expressions and postures and things that you do and like,
for instance, you're born with. Like you can blush, that's
an innate thing. You blush. You don't mean to blush,
especially when somebody's staring at your cheek. Yeah. I don't
think you can make yourself blush. Watch this, So just
think about hot things in your mouth, tighten up your core. Uh.
(16:55):
So that's the innate side. Learned would be things like um,
hanging someone the bird, Yeah, out the car window, because
everyone knows what that means. You're depending on where you
are and you've learned it. Yeah, that's not something you're
born doing like, yeah, I got your typer right here
to a photo of a baby accidentally shooting a bird
(17:17):
is one of the great things can we agree? But
it's accidental, there's no meaning attached to it. That's what
you think. Um. And then there's hybrid hybrid gestures that
are like, um, shrugging is a really good example. It's
something you know you naturally shrug right, right, but it's
it's not contextual until you learn what to attach attach
(17:38):
it to, Like I don't know, you're not born being
like right or you or you you cry, but you've
also learned that crying can uh get you something maybe right,
or to get out of a traffic ticket or something sympathy.
It can chase your parents off to the bar. Yeah, yeah,
one of those. Um. And then Chuck I said something
(18:01):
about how you know, flipping somebody bird? Everybody knows what
that means. It does depend on where you are, because
there is especially with learned. So I think innate body
language is virtually universal stuff that you couldn't possibly control. Like, uh,
I can't remember why I read it. But if you
take a bite of something putrid and you make that
horrible like disgusted face, like oh my god, I'm about
(18:25):
to vomit everywhere everybody's watching you doesn't have to go
give me that and then take a bite and taste
it themselves. They can look at your face and be like,
I'm not going anywhere near that piece of feces that
guy just took a bite of. Or that's how we
all learned not to eat feces. Yeah, but there's also
the human thing where you're like, oh God, smell this, right.
That's the person who wants everyone else to suffer like
(18:48):
they just did. But everybody else has just been communicated
to by that innate face, that nasty face that you
would make when you eat something disgusting. And again that
evolutionarily that protects us than that respect and make stuff.
So that's universal, but it's the learned stuff that's culturally dependent. Yeah, Like,
for instance, they have a few examples in the article,
(19:09):
um uh, smiling in the US might mean in the
United States might mean you're happy, apparently, in Asia it
might say I agree with you. It could also cover
up embarrassment if they're embarrassing for you or something that
you might smile. Um, yeah, is that what everyone's always
smiling at me? They're embarrassed for me. Uh what else?
(19:31):
Ie contact varies from place to place. Uh. Here in
the United States, someone might think you're listening and uh
like very key to into what you're saying. Are you
Ted Bundy or your Ted Bundy? Or if you're in Africa,
maybe it might be disrespectful to look someone right in
the eye. Yeah, And I looked around and find out
what part of Africa because I hate to leave it
like that, you know, on this massive continent, do not
(19:54):
look people in the eyes? Yeah, I couldn't find any,
And everyone said some parts of Africa everywhere I look.
No one specifically said. In the Congo, it's um considered
uh impolite or aggressive or something like that to to
maintain eye contact. It's definitely in in um Japan. If
you make eye contact with somebody, you're saying, I'm your superior.
(20:16):
So if you are socially or say business wise and
inferior to somebody, you're you're averting your gaze and it's respectful.
In the US, you shake hands and you make eye
contact and you just you know, climbed a wrong right there,
unless you're prince and then he's like nobody can hide
eye contact with me? Is that for real? Because he
likes to do things that just mess with people for fun.
(20:38):
I think I think of the stories you've heard about
Prince are not true. What about him playing basketball? He's
like a really good basketball player, though, says Charlie Murphy.
I believe that everything. Charlie Murphy says, I found some
more culturally bound stuff. Thumbs up in New Zealand does
not mean like right on? Does that mean like a
(20:58):
thumb up your butt? Pretty much? Really? Yeah, you don't
want to do that. Um. Similarly, when you make like
the peace sign, as long as you're not showing the
people in the back of your hand. Yeah. And in
in Australia, and I believe New Zealand too, like that
movie Bad Taste, the cover of It that I think
Peter Jackson's first or second movie, the cover of It's
(21:21):
like an alien going like that, and I'm like, what's
the what's two? Why was he showing me the number two?
Then as I grew up, I learned to understand what
that was. What else you got? Uh? And some cultures,
nodding means no, like nodding yes actually means no, like
in Grease and Bulgaria getting in trouble. Yeah, and in Mexico, Mexico.
(21:42):
This is what I found. Mexico, Haiti, and Spain. It
is perfectly normal to go to a waiter, which I do.
I don't do it to waiters, but I'm a kind
of person. That's how you call someone over and get
their attention. You may also make kissing noises at them
to a waiter. Yeah. Really Yeah, So I go to Mexico,
(22:04):
I need my check and I go. I guess according
to this thing that I read, which seemed pretty legitimate. Interesting, Yeah,
what was the website? I don't remember. I'll definitely send
it to you to post. But it's it's um, it
was like it was research material to be used by
business people around the world. If it was a hoax,
then they did a pretty good job. Fool in me
(22:25):
got you. All right, let's take another break and we'll
come back and we'll talk about deciphering some of these
nonverbal cues right after this. Alright, So language is a
(22:53):
very precise thing, or it should be or can be. Um,
body language would you would think is just all over
the at, but they're actually uh, some categories that some
brilliant social scientists have come up with yeah, and I
think they make sense. Yeah. Basically they've broken it down
into five categories or five types of nonverbal communication and
(23:16):
body language. Um, there's emblems. It's like hanging a bird, yeah,
or shaking your fist or something like that. Something that
that um is very symbolic of something else that you
can also put into words, right, who shakes a fist
at someone? Some people do, Okay, it's a good it's
a it's a good yeah. Yeah, because it's saying like
(23:37):
that meddle finger and then you're that's that's very aggressive.
That's very aggressive. I'm just kidding. And never flicked someone
a bird? Oh oh yeah, like in a car or something.
No way, Yeah, apparently it's really dangerous. Yeah, and that's yeah,
that's why I do it. I think it's just I mean,
I don't get mad you didn't say things, but I
(23:58):
would never. I don't know who that person is. Yeah,
it could be a psycho. Yeah. Then you're getting chased
or you're getting shot at by someone because you you
just had to shoot a bird. Yeah. We talked about
this in the road Rage episode. Yeah. I wouldn't hang
people to the bird and that's not smart. By the way,
I want to update on that. I've I've been improving
more and more behaviorally even since the road rage episode.
(24:19):
And I was already on the right path then. So
you're doing good behind the wheelers are doing so good.
I feel like I'm about the same. Well, you've always
been that way. I get mad. One time you rode
with me. I think it was the first time you
ever rode with me, and I started yelling at someone.
You're like, really, you seem genuinely surprised, and I remember
(24:39):
thinking like abnormal. Uh, well that was probably because you
were like sending an email with your left hand and
driving with your knee and had a coffee in the
other I've gotten so much better because you value your life.
I do. It's great. UM emblems after emblem illustrators, which
(25:01):
UM like shaking your head to as far as emphasis
if to emphasize something you're saying, like like no, Sure
you can just say no, but the person is like,
it doesn't really mean that until you shake your head
but you say no slowly that you're really saying like
do not ask me again? Yeah, boy, I never thought
(25:23):
about that. The slow one really does mean something. Different.
It does, it adds, it bulks it up, you know,
um regulators. Uh. I think this is in a conversation
to let someone else know that maybe all right, it's
time for you to talk now, or it's time for
me to talk right, or it's time for us to
stop talking. Like looking at your watch and just getting
(25:45):
them walking away. That's yeah, that's body language. I guess
it is. It definitely speaks volumes. Um. There's adapters which
I guess have to do with the person listening, or
I guess anybody either one uh, making themselves more comfortable.
Like you know, when you're in a conversation with somebody
and they just kind of shift in their seat like
settle in. Yeah, now they could be doing it differently
(26:08):
where they're fidgeting, they're shifting in their seat uncomfortably, like
they can't get comfortable. That say something totally different than
somebody who's just like settling in, just making themselves more comfortable.
Or I guess if you like, if you're having a
conversation and someone just sits up on the edge of
their seat, that kind of says we're done here, Sure,
I'm about to get up. Yeah, so please say something enclosure. Yeah,
(26:30):
especially if you sigh while you do that too, you know. Yeah,
and then there's affect displaced. And these are the ones
that most people think of when they think of body language.
These are the ones that, um, you know, like where
you make that that face when you eat something putrid,
or your shoulders go up around your ears when you're
scared all of a sudden, Yeah, if you're mad. It's
emotional based. Yeah, emotion based, yeah, like your your eyebrows furrow. Uh.
(26:55):
There's just so much body language. I came across this
one guy from and m Argyle. No idea what the
M stands for, but in Professor m Argyle, a researcher
of body language, said that there's probably something like seven
hundred thousand words in the body language human body language.
(27:16):
I have no idea how he or she came up
with that seems high, But it's fun to throw out there,
junk science. You could say anything back then. And it's
as far as like social psychology, um, misinterpreting body languages.
We talked a little bit about that. That is very
(27:37):
easy to do. UM. They have one little anecdotal story
about a woman who was a consultant that I think
she was pitching in the CEO of a big company
and um, the guy just sat there basically with his
arms crossed and didn't emote. At the end, was just
like thank you, and she thought, well, I've blown this one.
And turns out that is just the way that guy is.
(27:57):
He loved he loved the jerk, he loved the presentation,
and Uh, if he hadn't liked it, he just would
have left, is what the partner said. I think. Yeah,
so you can easily misinterpret body language. UM, I don't
know if it's I guess it could be dangerous and
that well, I mean that's part of the problem. It
can be dangerous, especially when you apply it to law
(28:18):
enforcement like um. Paul Ekman. We talked about him heavily
in the micro Expressions episode because he basically studied micro
expressions through facial movement, facial muscle movement, and figured out
what each one meant, and he came up with the
Facial action Coding System the f a c S, which
apparently the FBI and other law enforcement agencies used to
(28:41):
tell whether you're lying or you're hiding something in an interrogation.
Misreading that that's dangerous, that's when it becomes dangerous for sure. Yeah,
this dude, I was talking about Joe Navarro, who was
a twenty five year vett of the FBI. He's written
a lot about body language, and he's one of the
ones that warns about the myths and misreading things. But um,
(29:03):
his uh. He wrote a whole article on shoulders and
he said everyone's always talking about the face and facial expressions.
He thinks you can read a lot into the shoulders
of a person, whether it's slumping or bowing up or uh.
And then he actually talked to criminals over his entire
career and said, what do you look for in a victim?
So if you're looking to not be victimized, you might
(29:26):
want to avoid these things looking frail or weak or
not athletic, work out, yeah, or just you know, try
and carry yourself like you're not frail or weak, you know.
And I think there's a lot to do with the shoulders. Um.
Situational awareness, which is a big one. If you just
look like your have your head in the clouds, that's
(29:46):
a target what you're in your head about something? Yeah? Uh.
And then um, the way someone swings their arms, um
like vigor vigorously or real subdued, not at all like
on on episode. Yeah, that was it was that Roquel Welch. No,
it was um well yeah I ended up as Rockel Welts,
(30:07):
but it was Molly Shannon. Oh yeah yeah, yeah you
remember she like swept, Yeah, Elaine's desk just clean. Yeah, Shannon,
and she's one of my favorites. She's fantastic. Um so
what was Yeah, the arm swing and basically what these
criminals would say to him over and over. As you know,
(30:30):
their silver Backs don't go after other silver Backs. They
go after the weak ones. And they said, it's the
same with criminals. So I keep those shoulders straight. And uh,
I was like, what the silver Back? I forgot? It
sounds like a criminal corporate buzz speak. Yeah, you know
silver Backs. It's the local soccer team. How do you
not know what that is? Is it? Sure? That's what
(30:52):
I thought? Yeah? All right? Uh? What else we got? Oh?
These uh, these people that try and coach you. We're
gonna mention that not jobs. I don't think they're not jobs, dude. Okay.
The one, the one person who emerges as the hero
from this article says, be very careful in trying to
pay attention to your body language and speak consciously through it,
(31:15):
because you're going to you're gonna have massive problems. That's
not what body language is intended for. So the people
who say no, master your body language and use it
to communicate, You're gonna come off as a creep, an aggressive, weirdo,
corporate creep if you do that. Well, yeah, I mean,
(31:35):
if you're making a presentation, it's hard enough to get
the words right. So if you start thinking like about
every single movement you make and what that conveys, don't
I agree. I don't think you're doing yourself any favors.
Or Like, if you go to again a car sales
car lot, right, and you're like, I'm going to make
sure I look very defensive and aggressive, so I'm going
to go rigid and my shoulders are gonna go up.
(31:58):
The car sales is going to be like that. That
guy's walking like a robot, I'm gonna take him for
a ride. You know, there's you, You just you could
conceivably speak through your body language more. I don't dispute
that you can become more aware of your natural body
language too. I don't dispute that either, but when you
focus on it and use it as a technique to
manipulate other people, I have issues with that. Well, here
(32:22):
was one idea didn't think was terrible, like if you're
if you do a lot of public speaking, then um,
maybe watching yourself with the sound off. Sure. I didn't
disagree with that one. That's not a terrible idea, I
think as a matter of fact, I was like, maybe
maybe I should try that. Uh. The other technique that
was brought up was called mirroring. That means, and this
(32:42):
just sounds crazy to me. This is when you actually
try and mimic the person you're talking to, mimic their
body language and expressions too, I guess, to make them
feel more comfortable to you. People are attracted to themselves
as the basis of it, so when you uh mimic them,
they feel more relaxed around you. Like I really like
(33:03):
that person. I like the cut of their jib. I
don't know, I can't put my finger on it. But
they're actually mimicking your own body language. If you're leaning
leaning against the wall, they're they're gonna lean against the
wall too. That's disconcerting, it is, that's that's nuts. You
shouldn't do that to people. That's manipulative and weird, and
it just be yourself. How about that? Yeah, I think
(33:23):
this quote sums it up. I'm trying to learn. I'm trying. Sorry,
Trying to use body language by reading a body language
dictionary is like trying to speak French by reading a
French dictionary. So you can list off all the nonverbal
cues in the world. But if you try and learn
the body language quote unquote because of that, then you're
just gonna end up confused or you're gonna miss something
(33:44):
actually said. Yeah. And plus also context is huge to Like,
if you're just watching somebody's body language like a hawk
and a conversation, you don't necessarily know that person's baseline.
So what is by definition is body language dictionary. A
red flag doesn't necessarily mean it's a red flag with
that person, you know, like if they're yawning, are they
(34:04):
bored or are they nervous? Right, you gotta have context
and you can't just you can't just read people like that.
It's stupid go with your gut um, But I don't
think you should actively try to read it. If you
want to go ahead, I don't care I'm not going
to I did read an article with one um woman
who was an expert supposedly, and she did talk a
(34:27):
lot about the baseline. She's like, that's the most important
thing is you don't know. You gotta know how someone
normally is. Are they twitchy? Then? Uh, if you're they're
twitching a conversation, that's normal for them, right, So it
doesn't mean that you can't trust what they're saying, right then,
it just means that they're a little awkward. Yeah, like me,
You're not awkward. Do you got anything else? Nope? Friends,
(34:50):
that is body language, and if you want to know
more about it, you can type these words body language
into the search bart how stuff works dot com. And
since I said friends, it's time for a listener mail. Uh,
this is from this is a question actually I said
we'd answer on the air. Hey, guys, been listening for
quite a few years, and you've seen me through a
(35:11):
lot of years of growth out of high school and
into my own as an adult. Of a question that's
been a challenge for me recently, I'm studying permaculture quite intensively.
In parts of the study are pretty depressing. My climate
change species lost in unfair trade. I try to reflect
positives only to my clients who are trying to grow
(35:31):
their own food, because they'd rather encourage them to sustain
themselves physically and emotionally than feel guilted or trapped into
changing a lifestyle. Realize that having the opportunity in time
to focus on ethical choices the luxury, and want to
avoid shaming people. I think this approach is good for
my own well being because tackling issues bigger than myself
seems more harmful than productive. But like you, part of
(35:52):
my job uh is education. Um So the question is
how do you guys deal with darker topics that you cover.
I really appreciate the way you do it some uh
and it would like some insight and advice. How prevent
these topics from weighing too heavily on you and still
live a life of enjoyment yet conveying topics honestly? And
that is from Annales in Australia. UM. I think my
(36:18):
answer is like when we cover something like dementia or
HIV like we recently did, we're always going to have
humor in there, respectfully and in the right ways because
that's what we do. Plus also it helps when we're
getting this stuff across. It's not like it's not like
we're causing dementia. We're just saying, like, here's all the
(36:38):
information that that we found on this, here's everything you
need to know about dementia. And I think the thing
that that allows us to go from you know, lighthearted
topic to a very dark topic to whatever is that
we're we're putting it out there as objectively as possible,
as unbiased as possible, trying to we're not passing much
(36:59):
judgment on it depending on the topic, but for the
most part, we don't really pass too much judgment on it,
and I think that that allows us to talk about anything. Yeah,
and as far as taking it home, Um, if we
do something that's a big bummer that it really impacts me,
it'll bump me out for sure. But I'm just like
anything else, I think knowledge is is key to Uh.
The more you know about something, less um scared you
(37:22):
might be of it. Yeah, you just go work it out,
you know. Definitely. Yeah, that's great answer you too. If
you want to get in touch with Chuck for me
or Jerry or anybody who we could conceivably pass a
message along too. All right, Yeah, you can. You can
tweet to us at s y s K podcast. You
(37:44):
can join us on Facebook dot com slash stuff you
Should Know. You can send us an email to Stuff
podcast the house. Stuffworks dot com and has always joined
us at our home on the web, Stuff you Should
Know dot com. For more on this and thousands of
other topics, visit how stuff Works dot com. M
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we're like reverse Donald Ducks. Yeah, are we going topless?
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welcome to you stuff you should know from House stuff
Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
(01:29):
Josh Clark. It's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. Cherry's in the house.
We're back to basics. Yeah, we're doing a social sciences episode. Man,
I mean we're all right, man, we get to tear
it apart. You you believe in body language? Sure, watch this.
You're winking and shouldering and nodding your head and you're
(01:50):
loosening up and you're doing some weird biting thing. What
did I say? You said, I'm feeling silly. It's exactly
what it is. How about that? Yeah? It said I've
had a diet mountain dew and I'm pepped up. Okay,
that's what I was saying. Now I'm crashing and he's down.
(02:10):
Are you doing good? Yeah? I'm hanging on by a thread.
Are you sure we can make it through this? Man?
You you can do this in your sleep? Okay, don't
go to sleep. Okay, it would be so boring. You
could theoretically do this in your sleep. Yeah, okay, I
got you. Yeah, um, so body language it is a thing.
When I was researching, I was like, this is junk science.
(02:33):
There's no way this is real. And I could not
find anything that just said like, yes, body language is
obviously junk science. Apparently it's very well established and well reputed.
I mean I understand, like, like, yes, there is such
thing as body language included in the evolution. It's basically
evidence of evolution from an animalian ancestor. But the idea
(02:57):
that like you can read somebody, especially like that facial
coding system, it just struck me as really like junkie. Yeah,
well we did Um I could have sworn we had
done this one when I did. Yeah, we did that,
and I think two thousand nine, and I don't remember
how I weighed in on it back then. So I'm
just gonna start a new and maybe it may be
a different take. I have no idea. People grow and
(03:19):
change their opinions evolve, you know. Well here's what I think.
Of course, body language is real and it can tell
you a lot. I can tell you a lot, but
it can also miss you can be misdirected very easily.
And uh, I mean we'll get to it. But I
found some stuff from a former FBI guy. Even uh,
(03:39):
it doesn't say it's junk science, but he's like, you
can fool somebody to if you're a sociopath. You know
this about body language of expressions. Apparently it's a myth that,
uh that's how I get by. Apparently it's a myth
that uh ikon or not having eye contact means deception. Um,
(04:00):
while it can. His whole point is they've done studies
over the years and habitual liars, h and anti socials
in psychopaths have the most eye contact probably because there's
that myth exactly. So it's like a self fulfilling myth. Yeah,
Ted Bundy was probably like, I gotta make great contact
with everyone into otherwise the jig will be up and
(04:22):
I won't get to kill people any longer, my favorite thing.
And then so, yeah, there's a lot of myth. There's that.
There's that one myth also where like you look up
into the right or up into the left of your
lying or recalling Yeah, I can't remember, we don't. We
debunked that and something here they're a while back. Yeah,
I think I think body language is fun to talk
about and study, but when you're convicting someone and as
(04:47):
a jury based on micro expression. Yes, there's where the
junk science comes in from me, it gets a little dangerous,
and not just with body language. Who we need to
do a whole episode on forensics in general and just
how junkie the science that most of it is based on.
It's basically the only thing that's that's less standing is
d n A and even that can be wildly misinterpreted.
(05:10):
And we're using this to like execute people, and there's
a big problem with it. So I think we've arrived
at my problem with it. It's junk science when you
apply it for like law enforcement. Yeah as fact, Yeah, agreed, Okay,
So can we be done. This is the other thing
that got me to um Albert uh Mehrabian. I totally
(05:32):
nailed that guy's name. I bet the h is silent
Arabian Arabian. I bet it's just Arabian, not Arabian anyway.
Uh Dr Arabian back in said that in the first
four minutes of meeting someone, our facial expressions account for
(05:54):
the impression we make. Seven percent of that impression comes
from our actual words, while the remainder of the information
from a tone of voice. Yeah, he does think is
what made me think like, no, this is all Yes, Yeah,
because it sounds who can who can say that? You can't?
Maybe one you could get away with that crap not
in two tho you lived in the past. Uh. Yeah,
(06:17):
Morabian was he's He was probably one of the first
researchers to study this in the nineteen forties out of U. C.
L A and UM. I agree, you can't just break
down percentages. I think what he really means to say,
if I may speak for him, is facial expressions in
tone of voice account for a lot of a lot
(06:39):
of what you're getting out of a person. And I
don't think anyone would disagree with that. And the words
account maybe for even less than those two things combined.
I think people would agree with that too. I think
it's when you quantify it seven. He just said that
just because it sounds authoritative. Yeah, because he like he
fed it into the percentage three maker three thousand and
(07:00):
and it spit it out. Uh. But that is not
to miss the point that communicating UM inadvertently is something
that we all do through body lane. Sure. Yeah, there's
a there's a great quote I ran across on a
psychology today post um it was. The quote comes from
a sixteenth century Scottish mathematician named John Napier, and he said,
(07:23):
if language was given to men to conceal there, oh
you found it too. Hunh. It's about as good a
quote of body language as you can come up with.
You do it, chuck now you you already do better.
Sixteenth century Scottish do Sean Connery reading this, man, if
language was given to men and shield their faults, then
(07:44):
gestures pish was to disclose them. That's perfect, it's not bad.
That was dead on John Napier. It's not as good
as my crystal fault. So Napier makes a pretty good point, like, yeah,
you can. Language has all sorts of str sure and
can be mastered body languages. Much of it is is
(08:04):
just inadvertent and we don't even realize necessarily when you're
picking up on it. You just get this weird gut
feeling that uh no, I don't trust this car salesman,
or I want to give this car salesman all my
money depending on the body language. Yeah, and um, it's
pretty clear that this started a long time ago, like
it predates language because who wrote this By the way,
(08:27):
this is a Patrick Kaiger joint. Oh kaigeru Kaiger says
um rightfully that it took took's age. You didn't have
a lot of time to suss things out, like up
close and personal. You know, once you got close enough
within striking distance, you can be stricken. Yeah, you might
already have that club upside your head or that rock
(08:49):
in your face. Yeah, so you needed to judge someone's
body language as they approach you to survive. Yes, you
know so, so body language makes sense. And you would
also presuppose that since we are descended from animals and
animals clearly do engage in body language. Um, that body
(09:11):
language would be older than language, although this this article
says that language didn't exist until about a hundred thousand
years ago, so it's under dispute. Possibly as much as
a million years ago, people were using some sort of
verbal communication. Yeah, and Neanderthals apparently also head language. Probably interesting,
It is pretty interesting. I'd like to do one on
(09:31):
um animal communication, have we not? I think we touched
on it here and there, But I know there's a
lot of things like cats purring and tails wagging on
dogs that are misinterpreted. Um. Or like a wolf growling.
I think that means compet me. You know, it's often
misinterpreted as a warning, Come take this stink out of
(09:51):
my mouth if you dare. Uh should we take a break?
All right, let's take a quick one, and we're gonna
get back and explain a little bit more about what
one researcher calls thin slices of experience. So Josha said
(10:23):
something about thin slices of experience, And I'm not talking
about the uh the roast beef line at the buffet,
which is great, thin slices. The carving station? Yeah? Yeah,
Have you ever worked at carving station? Have I ever
worked one? Yeah? I've hung around one long enough that
I basically should have been paid, But I was just eating.
What do you wait for the next uh roast to
(10:45):
come out so you can get the incut? I know,
I've never been into and cuts, whether it be a
loaf of bread or cut of meat. Oh really like
a prime rib in cut? Yeah? No, daddy, that's good.
Isn't it all salt? Maybe that's why I love it?
You like the salt? Yeah? Yeah. To me, it's like
the closer you get to the middle, the juicy here it, yeah,
(11:08):
and a little a little rarer in the middle obviously. Yeah.
So I think that's my problem with the end of anything.
It's undercooked. You know about White people don't like to
eat the crust because it's called crust, And that might
be part of it. If like a hundred years ago
they named it like the butterfly Yeah, the butterfly slice,
(11:29):
people would have been like fighting for it, like the
butterfly slice is delicious. Yeah. Have you ever heard George
Carlin's little take on that end slice that everybody always
goes past. They're like, I'm not gonna eat that. That's
the poison piece of bread. I'll leave that for my
family to eat. Wait, I guess the NPS didn't called
the crust, so is it. The crust is what's around.
(11:51):
But it's all crust. That's the problem with you know
what I mean, it's nothing but crust. Yeah, not butt crust,
it's nothing but crust. I think the other weird man,
this is a jerus, This is a strange tangent um.
I think the other problem with the bread end pieces
is that eating one end piece with a regular slice
(12:12):
is a little weird, but getting that other slice off
the tail end is not very feasible or efficient to
make two crust pieces. No, but that frequently is the
last sandwich that's made out of the loaf because that
one end piece has been hanging around. And then I
finally mate, yeah, and then you stick some turkey in
(12:34):
it and weep quietly while you eat your terrible sandwich. Man,
thin slices. Where were we experience? Yes, this is a
professor of psychology name uh Nalini Embody and Batty from
Toughs University. Shout out to my buddy Robert Shahade from
(12:54):
high school. He works at tough Speaking of you know,
there's a kid with like a really huge hit single
out right now from your high school. Really, I think
your high school is shown in the music video. It's
um watching Me whip watch Men. It's reed in weird silento.
So I'm no longer the most famous person from high school.
(13:16):
You were until about it six months ago, and I
will be again in another six months. Maybe it's a
pretty pretty catchy single. It's a hot, hot, hot track. Now.
We actually we had several professional athletes that are much
more popular than me. We had a professional punter actually
maybe before Yeah, we haven't. We've had a few. There's
(13:37):
a baseball player, uh in, a puncher. Travis Tritt went
to my high school. Shut up really, see that's a
big nimee, Travis. Yeah, I don't have any like superstars.
Luke Brian went to UMIs High School. Man, you guys,
where'd you go Beverly Hills to uh? Oh boy, here
(14:01):
we go again. Thin slices from tough University. Well, let's
let's talk about the thin slices thing, man, um the
you said earlier that it would be very advantageous evolutionarily speaking,
to be able to read maybe the rough intentions of
some other hunter gatherer a hundred thousand years ago, read
(14:23):
the room like from a distance before they could hit
you with a rock, right, if that was their intent. Well,
just as much you want to be able to like
walk through the world and be threatened by stuff and
to make snap judgments about it based on things like
body language. Same thing, and this this is what the
thin slices has to do with. Yeah, they're just those
(14:43):
first few seconds when you meet somebody. And I mean
some people may just call it a gut instinct about somebody,
but what you're probably doing is reading body language. That's
what that gut instinct is. Yes, and those things are
processed and generated. And I think the Olympic system where
emotions and feelings are processed in the brain. Yeah, Olympics system.
From what I understand, that's right, which um, she thinks
(15:07):
and I agree with her. That might explain why we
have such uh, such like a powerful gut instinct about
some people when we first meet them, because it's tied
to emotion. Yeah. And the whole point is is, uh,
this guy will cut your throat if you turn your
back on him. Right, Probably not, but in our modern
context it's you know, this guy will inflate the price
(15:31):
of the car you want to buy if you if
you're not careful. It's it's this totally different things, but
it's based on the same principle. It's all based on
body language, and we're able to make snap judgments that
we can't even stop and really analyze what it was
that person did or what it was about him. We
just know that we trust him or don't, or we
feel comfortable aroun him or not, we fear them or
(15:52):
we don't, based on this body language. And what this
professor is saying is we have a very ancient part
of our brain that that is responsible for processing this stuff. Yeah,
and I think, um, just for me personally, I think
if you try to focus on that too much, then
you're not doing yourselves any favors. Like let it be anate. Well, yeah,
(16:13):
there's some people who coach this kind of stuff that
apparently say no do all sorts of crazy weird stuff,
which we'll talk about later. Yeah, I agreed. But what
you're looking at, um are There's three different categories I
guess um innate learned and some that are both hybrid. Uh,
(16:33):
expressions and postures and things that you do and like,
for instance, you're born with. Like you can blush, that's
an innate thing. You blush. You don't mean to blush,
especially when somebody's staring at your cheek. Yeah. I don't
think you can make yourself blush. Watch this, So just
think about hot things in your mouth, tighten up your core. Uh.
(16:55):
So that's the innate side. Learned would be things like um,
hanging someone the bird, Yeah, out the car window, because
everyone knows what that means. You're depending on where you
are and you've learned it. Yeah, that's not something you're
born doing like, yeah, I got your typer right here
to a photo of a baby accidentally shooting a bird
(17:17):
is one of the great things can we agree? But
it's accidental, there's no meaning attached to it. That's what
you think. Um. And then there's hybrid hybrid gestures that
are like, um, shrugging is a really good example. It's
something you know you naturally shrug right, right, but it's
it's not contextual until you learn what to attach attach
(17:38):
it to, Like I don't know, you're not born being
like right or you or you you cry, but you've
also learned that crying can uh get you something maybe right,
or to get out of a traffic ticket or something sympathy.
It can chase your parents off to the bar. Yeah, yeah,
one of those. Um. And then Chuck I said something
(18:01):
about how you know, flipping somebody bird? Everybody knows what
that means. It does depend on where you are, because
there is especially with learned. So I think innate body
language is virtually universal stuff that you couldn't possibly control. Like, uh,
I can't remember why I read it. But if you
take a bite of something putrid and you make that
horrible like disgusted face, like oh my god, I'm about
(18:25):
to vomit everywhere everybody's watching you doesn't have to go
give me that and then take a bite and taste
it themselves. They can look at your face and be like,
I'm not going anywhere near that piece of feces that
guy just took a bite of. Or that's how we
all learned not to eat feces. Yeah, but there's also
the human thing where you're like, oh God, smell this, right.
That's the person who wants everyone else to suffer like
(18:48):
they just did. But everybody else has just been communicated
to by that innate face, that nasty face that you
would make when you eat something disgusting. And again that
evolutionarily that protects us than that respect and make stuff.
So that's universal, but it's the learned stuff that's culturally dependent. Yeah, Like,
for instance, they have a few examples in the article,
(19:09):
um uh, smiling in the US might mean in the
United States might mean you're happy, apparently, in Asia it
might say I agree with you. It could also cover
up embarrassment if they're embarrassing for you or something that
you might smile. Um, yeah, is that what everyone's always
smiling at me? They're embarrassed for me. Uh what else?
(19:31):
Ie contact varies from place to place. Uh. Here in
the United States, someone might think you're listening and uh
like very key to into what you're saying. Are you
Ted Bundy or your Ted Bundy? Or if you're in Africa,
maybe it might be disrespectful to look someone right in
the eye. Yeah, And I looked around and find out
what part of Africa because I hate to leave it
like that, you know, on this massive continent, do not
(19:54):
look people in the eyes? Yeah, I couldn't find any,
And everyone said some parts of Africa everywhere I look.
No one specifically said. In the Congo, it's um considered
uh impolite or aggressive or something like that to to
maintain eye contact. It's definitely in in um Japan. If
you make eye contact with somebody, you're saying, I'm your superior.
(20:16):
So if you are socially or say business wise and
inferior to somebody, you're you're averting your gaze and it's respectful.
In the US, you shake hands and you make eye
contact and you just you know, climbed a wrong right there,
unless you're prince and then he's like nobody can hide
eye contact with me? Is that for real? Because he
likes to do things that just mess with people for fun.
(20:38):
I think I think of the stories you've heard about
Prince are not true. What about him playing basketball? He's
like a really good basketball player, though, says Charlie Murphy.
I believe that everything. Charlie Murphy says, I found some
more culturally bound stuff. Thumbs up in New Zealand does
not mean like right on? Does that mean like a
(20:58):
thumb up your butt? Pretty much? Really? Yeah, you don't
want to do that. Um. Similarly, when you make like
the peace sign, as long as you're not showing the
people in the back of your hand. Yeah. And in
in Australia, and I believe New Zealand too, like that
movie Bad Taste, the cover of It that I think
Peter Jackson's first or second movie, the cover of It's
(21:21):
like an alien going like that, and I'm like, what's
the what's two? Why was he showing me the number two?
Then as I grew up, I learned to understand what
that was. What else you got? Uh? And some cultures,
nodding means no, like nodding yes actually means no, like
in Grease and Bulgaria getting in trouble. Yeah, and in Mexico, Mexico.
(21:42):
This is what I found. Mexico, Haiti, and Spain. It
is perfectly normal to go to a waiter, which I do.
I don't do it to waiters, but I'm a kind
of person. That's how you call someone over and get
their attention. You may also make kissing noises at them
to a waiter. Yeah. Really Yeah, So I go to Mexico,
(22:04):
I need my check and I go. I guess according
to this thing that I read, which seemed pretty legitimate. Interesting, Yeah,
what was the website? I don't remember. I'll definitely send
it to you to post. But it's it's um, it
was like it was research material to be used by
business people around the world. If it was a hoax,
then they did a pretty good job. Fool in me
(22:25):
got you. All right, let's take another break and we'll
come back and we'll talk about deciphering some of these
nonverbal cues right after this. Alright, So language is a
(22:53):
very precise thing, or it should be or can be. Um,
body language would you would think is just all over
the at, but they're actually uh, some categories that some
brilliant social scientists have come up with yeah, and I
think they make sense. Yeah. Basically they've broken it down
into five categories or five types of nonverbal communication and
(23:16):
body language. Um, there's emblems. It's like hanging a bird, yeah,
or shaking your fist or something like that. Something that
that um is very symbolic of something else that you
can also put into words, right, who shakes a fist
at someone? Some people do, Okay, it's a good it's
a it's a good yeah. Yeah, because it's saying like
(23:37):
that meddle finger and then you're that's that's very aggressive.
That's very aggressive. I'm just kidding. And never flicked someone
a bird? Oh oh yeah, like in a car or something.
No way, Yeah, apparently it's really dangerous. Yeah, and that's yeah,
that's why I do it. I think it's just I mean,
I don't get mad you didn't say things, but I
(23:58):
would never. I don't know who that person is. Yeah,
it could be a psycho. Yeah. Then you're getting chased
or you're getting shot at by someone because you you
just had to shoot a bird. Yeah. We talked about
this in the road Rage episode. Yeah. I wouldn't hang
people to the bird and that's not smart. By the way,
I want to update on that. I've I've been improving
more and more behaviorally even since the road rage episode.
(24:19):
And I was already on the right path then. So
you're doing good behind the wheelers are doing so good.
I feel like I'm about the same. Well, you've always
been that way. I get mad. One time you rode
with me. I think it was the first time you
ever rode with me, and I started yelling at someone.
You're like, really, you seem genuinely surprised, and I remember
(24:39):
thinking like abnormal. Uh, well that was probably because you
were like sending an email with your left hand and
driving with your knee and had a coffee in the
other I've gotten so much better because you value your life.
I do. It's great. UM emblems after emblem illustrators, which
(25:01):
UM like shaking your head to as far as emphasis
if to emphasize something you're saying, like like no, Sure
you can just say no, but the person is like,
it doesn't really mean that until you shake your head
but you say no slowly that you're really saying like
do not ask me again? Yeah, boy, I never thought
(25:23):
about that. The slow one really does mean something. Different.
It does, it adds, it bulks it up, you know,
um regulators. Uh. I think this is in a conversation
to let someone else know that maybe all right, it's
time for you to talk now, or it's time for
me to talk right, or it's time for us to
stop talking. Like looking at your watch and just getting
(25:45):
them walking away. That's yeah, that's body language. I guess
it is. It definitely speaks volumes. Um. There's adapters which
I guess have to do with the person listening, or
I guess anybody either one uh, making themselves more comfortable.
Like you know, when you're in a conversation with somebody
and they just kind of shift in their seat like
settle in. Yeah, now they could be doing it differently
(26:08):
where they're fidgeting, they're shifting in their seat uncomfortably, like
they can't get comfortable. That say something totally different than
somebody who's just like settling in, just making themselves more comfortable.
Or I guess if you like, if you're having a
conversation and someone just sits up on the edge of
their seat, that kind of says we're done here, Sure,
I'm about to get up. Yeah, so please say something enclosure. Yeah,
(26:30):
especially if you sigh while you do that too, you know. Yeah,
and then there's affect displaced. And these are the ones
that most people think of when they think of body language.
These are the ones that, um, you know, like where
you make that that face when you eat something putrid,
or your shoulders go up around your ears when you're
scared all of a sudden, Yeah, if you're mad. It's
emotional based. Yeah, emotion based, yeah, like your your eyebrows furrow. Uh.
(26:55):
There's just so much body language. I came across this
one guy from and m Argyle. No idea what the
M stands for, but in Professor m Argyle, a researcher
of body language, said that there's probably something like seven
hundred thousand words in the body language human body language.
(27:16):
I have no idea how he or she came up
with that seems high, But it's fun to throw out there,
junk science. You could say anything back then. And it's
as far as like social psychology, um, misinterpreting body languages.
We talked a little bit about that. That is very
(27:37):
easy to do. UM. They have one little anecdotal story
about a woman who was a consultant that I think
she was pitching in the CEO of a big company
and um, the guy just sat there basically with his
arms crossed and didn't emote. At the end, was just
like thank you, and she thought, well, I've blown this one.
And turns out that is just the way that guy is.
(27:57):
He loved he loved the jerk, he loved the presentation,
and Uh, if he hadn't liked it, he just would
have left, is what the partner said. I think. Yeah,
so you can easily misinterpret body language. UM, I don't
know if it's I guess it could be dangerous and
that well, I mean that's part of the problem. It
can be dangerous, especially when you apply it to law
(28:18):
enforcement like um. Paul Ekman. We talked about him heavily
in the micro Expressions episode because he basically studied micro
expressions through facial movement, facial muscle movement, and figured out
what each one meant, and he came up with the
Facial action Coding System the f a c S, which
apparently the FBI and other law enforcement agencies used to
(28:41):
tell whether you're lying or you're hiding something in an interrogation.
Misreading that that's dangerous, that's when it becomes dangerous for sure. Yeah,
this dude, I was talking about Joe Navarro, who was
a twenty five year vett of the FBI. He's written
a lot about body language, and he's one of the
ones that warns about the myths and misreading things. But um,
(29:03):
his uh. He wrote a whole article on shoulders and
he said everyone's always talking about the face and facial expressions.
He thinks you can read a lot into the shoulders
of a person, whether it's slumping or bowing up or uh.
And then he actually talked to criminals over his entire
career and said, what do you look for in a victim?
So if you're looking to not be victimized, you might
(29:26):
want to avoid these things looking frail or weak or
not athletic, work out, yeah, or just you know, try
and carry yourself like you're not frail or weak, you know.
And I think there's a lot to do with the shoulders. Um.
Situational awareness, which is a big one. If you just
look like your have your head in the clouds, that's
(29:46):
a target what you're in your head about something? Yeah? Uh.
And then um, the way someone swings their arms, um
like vigor vigorously or real subdued, not at all like
on on episode. Yeah, that was it was that Roquel Welch. No,
it was um well yeah I ended up as Rockel Welts,
(30:07):
but it was Molly Shannon. Oh yeah yeah, yeah you
remember she like swept, Yeah, Elaine's desk just clean. Yeah, Shannon,
and she's one of my favorites. She's fantastic. Um so
what was Yeah, the arm swing and basically what these
criminals would say to him over and over. As you know,
(30:30):
their silver Backs don't go after other silver Backs. They
go after the weak ones. And they said, it's the
same with criminals. So I keep those shoulders straight. And uh,
I was like, what the silver Back? I forgot? It
sounds like a criminal corporate buzz speak. Yeah, you know
silver Backs. It's the local soccer team. How do you
not know what that is? Is it? Sure? That's what
(30:52):
I thought? Yeah? All right? Uh? What else we got? Oh?
These uh, these people that try and coach you. We're
gonna mention that not jobs. I don't think they're not jobs, dude. Okay.
The one, the one person who emerges as the hero
from this article says, be very careful in trying to
pay attention to your body language and speak consciously through it,
(31:15):
because you're going to you're gonna have massive problems. That's
not what body language is intended for. So the people
who say no, master your body language and use it
to communicate, You're gonna come off as a creep, an aggressive, weirdo,
corporate creep if you do that. Well, yeah, I mean,
(31:35):
if you're making a presentation, it's hard enough to get
the words right. So if you start thinking like about
every single movement you make and what that conveys, don't
I agree. I don't think you're doing yourself any favors.
Or Like, if you go to again a car sales
car lot, right, and you're like, I'm going to make
sure I look very defensive and aggressive, so I'm going
to go rigid and my shoulders are gonna go up.
(31:58):
The car sales is going to be like that. That
guy's walking like a robot, I'm gonna take him for
a ride. You know, there's you, You just you could
conceivably speak through your body language more. I don't dispute
that you can become more aware of your natural body
language too. I don't dispute that either, but when you
focus on it and use it as a technique to
manipulate other people, I have issues with that. Well, here
(32:22):
was one idea didn't think was terrible, like if you're
if you do a lot of public speaking, then um,
maybe watching yourself with the sound off. Sure. I didn't
disagree with that one. That's not a terrible idea, I
think as a matter of fact, I was like, maybe
maybe I should try that. Uh. The other technique that
was brought up was called mirroring. That means, and this
(32:42):
just sounds crazy to me. This is when you actually
try and mimic the person you're talking to, mimic their
body language and expressions too, I guess, to make them
feel more comfortable to you. People are attracted to themselves
as the basis of it, so when you uh mimic them,
they feel more relaxed around you. Like I really like
(33:03):
that person. I like the cut of their jib. I
don't know, I can't put my finger on it. But
they're actually mimicking your own body language. If you're leaning
leaning against the wall, they're they're gonna lean against the
wall too. That's disconcerting, it is, that's that's nuts. You
shouldn't do that to people. That's manipulative and weird, and
it just be yourself. How about that? Yeah, I think
(33:23):
this quote sums it up. I'm trying to learn. I'm trying. Sorry,
Trying to use body language by reading a body language
dictionary is like trying to speak French by reading a
French dictionary. So you can list off all the nonverbal
cues in the world. But if you try and learn
the body language quote unquote because of that, then you're
just gonna end up confused or you're gonna miss something
(33:44):
actually said. Yeah. And plus also context is huge to Like,
if you're just watching somebody's body language like a hawk
and a conversation, you don't necessarily know that person's baseline.
So what is by definition is body language dictionary. A
red flag doesn't necessarily mean it's a red flag with
that person, you know, like if they're yawning, are they
(34:04):
bored or are they nervous? Right, you gotta have context
and you can't just you can't just read people like that.
It's stupid go with your gut um, But I don't
think you should actively try to read it. If you
want to go ahead, I don't care I'm not going
to I did read an article with one um woman
who was an expert supposedly, and she did talk a
(34:27):
lot about the baseline. She's like, that's the most important
thing is you don't know. You gotta know how someone
normally is. Are they twitchy? Then? Uh, if you're they're
twitching a conversation, that's normal for them, right, So it
doesn't mean that you can't trust what they're saying, right then,
it just means that they're a little awkward. Yeah, like me,
You're not awkward. Do you got anything else? Nope? Friends,
(34:50):
that is body language, and if you want to know
more about it, you can type these words body language
into the search bart how stuff works dot com. And
since I said friends, it's time for a listener mail. Uh,
this is from this is a question actually I said
we'd answer on the air. Hey, guys, been listening for
quite a few years, and you've seen me through a
(35:11):
lot of years of growth out of high school and
into my own as an adult. Of a question that's
been a challenge for me recently, I'm studying permaculture quite intensively.
In parts of the study are pretty depressing. My climate
change species lost in unfair trade. I try to reflect
positives only to my clients who are trying to grow
(35:31):
their own food, because they'd rather encourage them to sustain
themselves physically and emotionally than feel guilted or trapped into
changing a lifestyle. Realize that having the opportunity in time
to focus on ethical choices the luxury, and want to
avoid shaming people. I think this approach is good for
my own well being because tackling issues bigger than myself
seems more harmful than productive. But like you, part of
(35:52):
my job uh is education. Um So the question is
how do you guys deal with darker topics that you cover.
I really appreciate the way you do it some uh
and it would like some insight and advice. How prevent
these topics from weighing too heavily on you and still
live a life of enjoyment yet conveying topics honestly? And
that is from Annales in Australia. UM. I think my
(36:18):
answer is like when we cover something like dementia or
HIV like we recently did, we're always going to have
humor in there, respectfully and in the right ways because
that's what we do. Plus also it helps when we're
getting this stuff across. It's not like it's not like
we're causing dementia. We're just saying, like, here's all the
(36:38):
information that that we found on this, here's everything you
need to know about dementia. And I think the thing
that that allows us to go from you know, lighthearted
topic to a very dark topic to whatever is that
we're we're putting it out there as objectively as possible,
as unbiased as possible, trying to we're not passing much
(36:59):
judgment on it depending on the topic, but for the
most part, we don't really pass too much judgment on it,
and I think that that allows us to talk about anything. Yeah,
and as far as taking it home, Um, if we
do something that's a big bummer that it really impacts me,
it'll bump me out for sure. But I'm just like
anything else, I think knowledge is is key to Uh.
The more you know about something, less um scared you
(37:22):
might be of it. Yeah, you just go work it out,
you know. Definitely. Yeah, that's great answer you too. If
you want to get in touch with Chuck for me
or Jerry or anybody who we could conceivably pass a
message along too. All right, Yeah, you can. You can
tweet to us at s y s K podcast. You
(37:44):
can join us on Facebook dot com slash stuff you
Should Know. You can send us an email to Stuff
podcast the house. Stuffworks dot com and has always joined
us at our home on the web, Stuff you Should
Know dot com. For more on this and thousands of
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