TechStuff Tackles Wikipedia

How did Wikipedia get started? What was the predecessor to Wikipedia? What are the pros and cons of Wikipedia? Learn more about Wikipedia with Jonathan and Lauren.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Get in touch with technology with tex Stuff from how Stuff,
What's dot com either everyone, and welcome to tex Stuff.
I'm Jonathan Strickland and I'm Lauren Vocoma. And today we
wanted to talk a bit about a subject that's kind
of a sore subject among among writers, teachers, teachers especially,

(00:29):
I would say, yeah, sometimes librarians, uh, anyone involved in
heavy research. Yeah. And and it's a matter of some
debate among lots and lots of people online, and there
are good points and bad points. We're going to cover
them all. We are, of course talking about Wikipedia. And
you guys who are longtime listeners of tech stuff might

(00:51):
remember that Chris and I did an episode about wikis
and we touched upon Wikipedia a little bit. But that
was many years ago. Other stuff has happened, as things
are wont to do on the course of time, and
we decided we wanted to really look at what made
Wikipedia what it was and what it is, and how
has it changed over the time that it's existed, and

(01:13):
and some of the reasons why Wikipedia is a very
useful tool and some reasons why people either maybe maybe
not dismiss it, but but but in some ways that
it could perhaps be improved. Yeah, and and reasons why
some people, uh suggest extreme caution before relying too heavily
upon it. Um and and before we get really into

(01:37):
this at all, you know, I used to write for
how Stuff Works dot Com a lot. I occasionally still do,
but I mostly do podcasts now and things like that.
Blogs are about about the writing level juncture, right, But
but I used to write these these a long articles.
And one of the policies and How Stuff Works, UH,
is that you do not use Wikipedia as a source.

(01:59):
And uh, I used to be an editor before I
was a podcaster in social media person. And yes, that
was one of the things that we very firmly enforced
are still do. And and really the reason for that
has nothing to do with whether or not the infant well,
it has something to do with whether or not the
information you find on Wikipedia is reliable. But more importantly,
Wikipedia is a dynamic thing, right. It can be written

(02:21):
and edited by anybody at any time. And so when
you sit there and cite something from Wikipedia, it maybe
the next time someone visits that particular entry, the the
information has changed, and it may be that the information
now is more accurate than it was, or maybe less
accurate at any rate. The things that make Wikipedia a

(02:42):
useful tool in day to day I need to get
this information are the same things that make it a
dangerous tool if you are writing in any sort of
academic or professional capacity. Apacity. Yeah, thank you editor for
giving me the word that I don't have. But but really,
before we get into all the pros and cons that
I've already just touched on, uh, let's talk about the history.

(03:04):
So before there was a Wikipedia, back when there was
just barely a web. Yeah, yeah, it was more more
local networks of computers and some of them could you know,
key into other local networks. Yeah, we we did have
an internet. Uh, and the web was a thing, but
it was very young. But back in so you know,

(03:24):
the web essentially is introduced, right, so web has not
been around for very long. Rick Gates comes up with
this idea. He says, Uh, you know what would be
really super awesome if if we were to build an
encyclopedia that lived on the Internet, and if you made

(03:45):
that encyclopedia something that anyone could contribute to, so that
way you could tap into the world's knowledge and people
who are really experts in whatever field that they're in
they can go in and share that knowledge, right, and
and then you have the hitcharch Guide to the Galaxy, right,
except it's really the Hitchicker's Guide to Earth. Uh. So
it would be more than mostly harmless Earth in a

(04:06):
small amount of the surrounding galaxy. Sure. Yeah, But essentially
the sum total of what human knowledge is could go
on the Internet and be in a database that you
could search, and it would be the world's most complete encyclopedia. Uh.
A fellow by the name of R. L. Samuel came
up with an idea to call it Interpedia, and it

(04:28):
was kind of this interesting point of discussion, but it
never went beyond that. It was just one of those Hey,
any cool, Yeah exactly. Maybe if someone who has more
time and resources could do this, it would be awesome. Uh.
And then in a very important development happened. And I
was amazed that it happened this early because this was
the development of the Wicki platform, and the fact that

(04:52):
it happened in ninety four amazes me because I was
largely unaware of wikis until Wikipedia came along. Yeah as well, So,
I mean I had been on the web since the
early nineties, but I just didn't know about wikis for
many years, I mean almost a decade. Uh, and it
was and when I finally did start to learn about wikis,

(05:12):
they were strange and unusual to me because it was
a different experience than your average website. Right. Yeah, Usually
most websites and most books are based on this idea
that there is one expert who is who is this
terrific expert and is talking to you about this thing. Yeah,
and that's and that's where it starts and stops. You know,
no one's arguing with them, particularly, right. There might be

(05:34):
some form of comment ability on a site where people
can contribute into the discussion, but in general, the content
of the site itself is created by a person or
an organization, but no one else. It's not like, you know,
Bob can just log in and put in Bob's section,
and then Joe over here logs in and puts in

(05:55):
Joe's section. It's Bob and Joe can't do anything because
they can just go and view the site. Well, the
wiki was based on a completely different idea, and it
was designed by a guy named Ward Cunningham and his
first one was First Software Developers. Yeah, yeah, he was.
He worked for a software consulting company that he was
a partner in. It was Cunningham and Cunningham also known

(06:16):
as C two dot com, and he was developing this,
uh this platform for Portland Pattern Repository and he called
it wiki wiki web right, based on the Hawaiian word
wiki or wiki wiki, which means um, quick quick, Yeah.
There's a the wiki wiki Shuttle in Honolulu, which is
an airport shuttle. I've been on the shuttle and I

(06:39):
remember my wife being really amused every time she saw
the wiki wiki shuttle. She just loved wiki wiki. Obviously
I've married the right woman. So, uh so, Ward Cunningham
comes up with this idea for the wiki and essentially
what a wiki is is it's a website that has
collaborative editing tools built into the side itself. So you

(07:01):
you navigate to the site through a browser, and within
the browser you can make changes to the site collaboratively.
So depending upon the level of administrative power you have,
you can you can edit things, you can add things,
you can delete things. And it's since it's all within
the web browser, you're using a basic markup language or

(07:22):
maybe some sort of rich text editor, and it'll let
people collaborate on projects, even if they had different machines. Right,
So if Lauren's using a Mac and I'm using a PC,
not only do we hate each other, but often we
can't work on the same thing because our platforms are
so different. But this is web based, so all we
have to do is use whichever browsers and then we

(07:46):
navigate there and we can make these changes and build
our collaborative I hate you website together and other people
can join in and explain why they hate everybody too.
And I don't know why I'm so negative today, but
apparently that's how this is gonna work. I think Cunningham
develops this wiki technology, which is what makes Wikipedia possible.
But we're not at Wikipedia yet now, right, because yeah,

(08:08):
well go ahead. Oh, I was just gonna say, that's
when we start talking about Jimmy Wales, who is kind
of the face of Wikipedia, right right, Yeah, I was
gonna say that. At the same time around was when
Jimmy Wales had dropped out of college. He he had
started um started a couple months or for a finance

(08:28):
PhD from Indiana University and wound up instead of doing that,
going to Chicago to be a futures an options trader
and supposedly much like Elon Musk, who we have previously profiled,
Jimmy Wales noticed that, you know, Netscape went public and
and what quadrupled in value overnight? Netscape did well, yes,

(08:49):
they did good. Um, and and took note of that
and said, hey, this internet thing that I've been kind
of playing around with for a few years, I think
that this could be a thing. Yeah, this this might
go places. And of course from this is all before
the dot com bubble burst too, so back then it
was all opportunity and wild west and no one was
really sure and bright shining dreams. Yeah it was. It

(09:11):
was interesting. Uh. You know, the the roads weren't paved
with gold, but they were paved with stock options. Uh.
Jimmy Wales has this thought while he's working for a well,
he's part owner of a company called Bomus dot com,
which is a search engine. Yeah, and he owned that
with two other joint owners, Tim Shell and Michael Davis.

(09:36):
Comes up with his version, his idea for a free
collaborative encyclopedia, and he taps a guy named Larry Sanger
to be the project lead for this new encyclopedia. Now
he knew Sanger from mailing lists, because this isn't that
long after the fact that people were just using things
like Usenet and mailing lists instead of the Web. And

(09:59):
uh so he got in touch with saner and and
convinced Singer to head up a project, this this collaborative encyclopedia,
which at that point did not have a name, right right, Yeah,
and you know that they've been thinking, I've read about
open source software and and how open source culture could
also be a thing and and and a beautiful thing

(10:20):
and so and yeah, and that was kind of when
you look back at Tim berners Lee, who's the guy
who essentially created what we know of as the Web.
That was sort of his approach to He thought that
open was the right way to go, that the open
collaborative way would mean that the Internet becomes the world's tool,
not any one company or government's tool. And so, uh

(10:44):
this was sort of the idea of of let's make
an encyclopedia that follows those same kind of philosophies. Yeah,
and so, so Wales and Sanger and a few others
start to form a project that they call new PDA
in U p E. D I A. And this is
a peer reviewed encyclopedia that they were going to put online.
And you know, because they wanted that they wanted that

(11:05):
expert opinion to come in, and they wanted everything to
be as as factual and reliable as possible. Exactly in
fact Singer that was he was passionate about this. He
said that, you know, you could create an online encyclopedia
where everyone just contributes, but if you wanted to be
a reliable resource, you need that peer review step in there.
So and it turned it turned out to be extremely

(11:27):
slow to to a get people to submit anything at all,
because it was it was intimidating and and be to
to you know, find the correct expert to to look
it over. And also, yeah, the review process was, as
Singer would describe later, laborious. Um so two thousand is
when nupedia starts, and it starts in the middle of

(11:48):
two thousand or so, and uh, they had an advisory
board of a sort of a peer review board made
up of PhD volunteers. So these are people who are
not even being paid, theirvolunteering their expertise to review papers
to make sure that they are they're ready for publications.
So this is like if you were to submit a
paper to an academic journal or a scientific journal. You know,

(12:11):
it's something that it's not just automatically going to get published.
It has to be reviewed and pass review. There might
be a lengthy revision process before we'll ever be published.
So there were seven steps in this review process for
new Pedia, and they did. They didn't think that that
it would work. I read somewhere that that Wales really
thought that, you know, it had been in conversations with

(12:33):
people on the internet and had realized that if it's
something that they feel passionate about, that they're usually really
willing to engage in that conversation and to help. Yeah.
So the idea was that, you know, you get people
who are really smart. A lot of really smart people
enjoy spreading knowledge. Not that we would know anything about
wanting to show off knowledge. Yeah, I mean, I'm not
really smart, but I still like to do it. So,

(12:54):
I mean that's why I played trivia is really just
to show off how smart I am. But I know
that ppared to these people, I was and still am stupid.
But anyway, so or at least okay, anyway, thank you,
Everyone's special and nobody is um. So yeah, the seventh
step process to publish to review before you would publish

(13:17):
an article. It turned out that this was a bit
of a bottleneck um and the very first Newpedia article
that was ever published was written by Kristoff Hust and
it was about a tonality and it was published in
the summer of two thousands, so it was early two
thousand when they started working on new Pedia. At that time,
the entire submission and review process was all through mailing lists.

(13:41):
It was. There wasn't a web based version yet, and
so the fairst article publishes in the summer of two thousand,
it was either June or July. According to Sanger, who
wrote about this I found it on slash Dot. He
wrote a two part piece that was essentially about the
whole beginning of Wikipedia, which started with this new Pedia thing. Well,

(14:04):
in January two Sanger and Wales meet up with a
guy named Ben COVID's at the infamous Taco stand meeting.
Taco stand meeting. Yeah, they were in California and they
were at a taco stand. They started talking and COVID's
told Whales and Sanger about Cunningham's wiki Wiki web platform

(14:24):
and they thought about this as being a tool that
would allow for collaborative work and make it much easier
to get articles. And and Sandor was still thinking about
this peer review process, right, right, But they were thinking
that in order to get more submissions, in order to
make it a little bit less intimidating for people to,
you know, to to submit an article to this crazy
peer review thing, yeah, to say, like, don't worry so

(14:46):
much about the quality, just submit stuff. Because it turned
out that, uh, you know that one of the things
they were worried about was that they needed to have content.
And part of the philosophy was that if we can
fix content, if the content it's not perfect, we can
still edit it once we get it. But if we
never get any content, there's no encyclopedia, right, because I

(15:07):
think at the time they had they had maybe twenty articles,
I mean something, you know, a very low number. Yeah,
it wasn't it was. It was twenty five articles by
the winter of two thousand one. So summer two thousand
their first article publishes. More than a year later, they
have twenty articles on new media, which is more articles

(15:27):
than I write in a year. But I mean, there
was fewer than what I wrote in a year. In
a year, I would write around a hundred articles. So
it's it's it's kind of you know, but that's that
shows you there was this bottleneck process and and you know,
you find out that a volunteer might love their field
of expertise, but they're still a volunteer, so there's still

(15:47):
they're still limited by the fact that they have to
do other things, most of them, unless they're independently wealthy,
they have other responsibilities they have to attend to. But
while they were thinking about this, they decided to launch
a wiki for Newpedia. And they launched that wiki on
January two thousand one. So newpedia is still a thing,

(16:08):
but they launch a wiki for it with the idea
of making it this faster way to contribute articles. And
I think it actually goes live on January. If any
of you know about Wikipedia Day and are going like
that wasn't on the tenth, well that's the here's why
the wiki goes live on the tenth. The advisory board says,
I don't want anything to do with that. Like essentially

(16:30):
what happened was the peer review board looked at the
wiki and said, look, we have these other backlog of
articles that we're still reviewing. We cannot deal with this nonsense.
So what happened was the new Pedia Wiki split from
Newpedia and became its own thing, and on January fifteenth,
that became Wikipedia. So Wikipedia began as a branch of

(16:53):
new Pedia where it was all going to be puer reviewed,
but then became its own thing where the peer review
kind of went away. The idea was that the community
would review, and so it wouldn't be peer reviewed in
the sense of an official board of experts. It would
be the community of Wikipedia collectively would be able to
review and edit the content that was being uploaded. And

(17:15):
and that that kind of spread of the workload was
really important, because they had a hundred and fifty entries
by the end of February. Yeah, it was, and it
went really pretty crazy. The according to Sanger, he said
by the end of January two thousand one, there were
six hundred articles on Wikipedia. But that's Singer this and

(17:37):
that was from memory, So you gotta keep in mind
this is Saner writing in two thousand five about what
happened in two thousand one. So Sanger says that by
the end of two thousand one there were six hundred articles,
and by March or by end of January two there
was six hundred articles by marchd by April and by Madred.
So not only were more articles coming online, but it

(17:59):
would growth rate was increasing over time, not exponentially, but
pretty pretty regularly. So it was very quickly becoming popular.
And uh uh. And April two thousand one, that's when
Jimmy Wales decided to to to post a thing where
he defined that the Wikipedia voice was to be one
of neutral point of view or n p o V

(18:22):
and uh. Sancer actually objected to this as well. Not
that he objected to the idea of neutrality, he thought
that was important. He objected to the phrase point of
view because he said that it still means that the
article has a point of view, and it shouldn't Sander
in some of his points. I was reading in this
stuff I saw and slash dot, I was thinking, this

(18:43):
is getting to be a little bit about semantics. Weird,
and yeah, a little bit. I respect a lot of
what he was saying, but I think it's something and
I think that that you know, pedantic has its place
on the Internet, absolutely does. Whenever I'm in a comment, uh,
it's my first weapon of choice. Um. Anyway, So by

(19:06):
the winter of two thousand one, that's when only articles
had published on Newpedia, and the approval process moves so
slowly that even when the tools to review and approve
articles moved from email to web based clients, it just
wasn't doing very well. And because it was such a
slow process, more and more of the people involved in

(19:26):
it began to neglect it and drop off of it.
And Wikipedia, but at that same time, was getting more
and more popular. So yeah, so Sander's responsibilities were starting
to shift more towards Wikipedia than Newpedia, simply because that's
where all the action was. So by two thousand one
and into two thousand two, Newpedia activity had slowed dramatically

(19:47):
and uh and also the the bubble. By then, the
dot com bubble had burst, which really kind of wiped
out a lot of the folks who were contributing in
some way. So that kind of all uh made the
funding kind of dry up for Newpedia. Wikipedia, by the way,
was existing at that time and still is to this

(20:07):
day on donations. UM. So the Newpedia was trying really
hard to redefine the rules that were needed to review
submissions so that they could streamline the process. But by
that time it was it was too little, too late.
Uh and and it gets really sad in another year.
But when I get there, I'll mention it. So um.

(20:30):
Even at this early stage of Wikipedia, Sanger was really saying,
let's pay attention to what experts have to say. Let's
give them special attention and respect, and make sure that
their voices are the ones we pay the most attention to.
Not that we won't accept submissions from the general public,
but that we should pay more attention to things that

(20:54):
are coming from people who are recognized. Because again, this
is this is Sander saying that in order to be
a credible resource for people, you have to have some
form of review or or you know, you have to
have some way of of saying the information here is
from right right, the same way that scientific journals won't
just you know, accept accept research that has not been

(21:16):
checked over by a peer review system because least it's
ideally ideally if you ever hear. In fact, this is
just a little side note. Uh, this is important if
you're reading something on Wikipedia and you look at the references.
It's something that Lauren and I do a lot. Uh,
It's important also to pay to what the references are
because there are scientific quote unquote scientific papers out there

(21:39):
that are actually blogs that aren't scientific papers. So then
you will quote unquote have a paper published in a
scientific journal, but it's not a peer reviewed scientific journal. Correct.
I see this with a lot of free energy papers,
where free energy is one of those things where like,
well it was published in such and such, like, yeah,
I check that out. That's that guy's personal blog. He
called it the Journal of Nuclear Physics, but it's just

(22:02):
live journal. Yeah. Yeah, we we just did an episode
about about nuclear power, not fusion power, and yeah there
was cold fusion and cold fusion and there was a
lot of that, so that that that's stuck in my head. Yes, exactly.
If you do research on cold fusion, you'll find quote
unquote papers, but they are posted on online resources that
turn out to be not an actual scientific journal. That

(22:23):
doesn't necessarily mean that the research is unreliable. It just
means that you don't have that peer review to really
be sure that it's past muster. And and also before
I was an editor here, I was actually an editor
for a medical research journal UM about rheumatism, and so
so I am intimately acquainted with the peer review process. Yeah. Uh, well,

(22:44):
moving on talking about the difference between Wikipedia and peer
review Sanger actually talked about how he had suggested a
rule called ignore all rules, and in his two five
recounting of the beginning of Wikipedia, he said that the
Wikipedia community might be surprised to hear that he was

(23:05):
the one who's who suggested that, because you know, against
Sanger was the one who was all about pure review,
and here he is saying ignore all rules. And his
his philosophy was that again, they wanted to get as
much content on Wikipedia as possible, and if the rules
intimidated someone so that they did not feel like they
were qualified or capable of posting, he wanted to take

(23:27):
that barrier away. But he thought of that as a
temporary measure, something to to get Wikipedia going, to get
the ball rolling, and then nodded something that would wind
up being one of the continuing five pillars, not a
central central tenant of the entire of the entire size. Yeah,

(23:47):
so ignoral rules. He kind of later on said that
I I kind of regret saying that now because he
felt that that was one of the past yeah, of
of him there was a little bit of a falling out,
you know. There's Yeah, Sander Singer definitely, Uh. If you
read his stuff, you see and I mean there's there's
there's a lot of rancor on both parts, right. Uh.

(24:09):
Sander has a lot to say about the direction that
Wikipedia took and uh, and it it's pretty clear that
he feels that it's not ideal. I mean, he doesn't
outright come out and say that this is uh, it's
it's useless or anything like that, but he has a
lot of criticisms. Meanwhile, the Wikipedia community, in turn, has
a lot of criticisms that they direct to Singer, and

(24:30):
they both sides have relevant points. So even though I'm
talking a lot about Singer, it's mainly because that's that's
the account I went with, uh for the history. Yeah,
it's not that It's not that I necessarily side with Singer.
I'm not that far to that extreme. Uh. Anyway, a
lot of the the policies of Wikipedia actually came out

(24:54):
of the community. It became sort of communal decisions of
how the site should work, which was kind of interesting
because they had originally thought of it being sort of
again an extension of New Pedia but this became more
of the open communal approach to the Internet, which again
is more of the Tim Burners Lee approach, which makes
it a lot harder to direct. You know, you can't
you know, when you've got a group of fifty people

(25:16):
who have all decided they want to go left, it's
really hard to make them go right, you know, when
you're one guy. Yeah, yeah, And you know, and there's
there's voting systems in place, there's you know, even back
in those days, there were a lot of a lot
of ways for people to communicate with each other. These
ideas that they had for the community. Uh, they had
decided that that Wikipedia content would always remain free for

(25:39):
others to read and edit, uh, meaning that there would
never be a point where there'd be a paywall or
subscription for Wikipedia. And uh they also, you know, we're
putting in those policies that allow people to publish rough
drafts or rough ideas that could be polished over time,
either by themselves or by other people. And then Google
started to include Wikipedia and its search results for different topics,

(26:04):
which meant that there was suddenly a huge rush of
news people. Yeah, and and Sanger noticed like as more
people were coming to visit Wikipedia more than we're getting
involved as editors and contributors. So that meant that even
that as the Wikipedia traffic was increasing, so was the content.
You were suddenly seeing even faster growth as far as

(26:26):
how much information was being contained within Wikipedia. Um and
the summer of uh, well, one of the before I
get to the summer two thousand one one thing Sander
didn't note was that even in those early days that
he was starting to notice that people who were difficult
and who were persistent, Uh, we're sometimes irritating very valuable

(26:50):
members of the Wikipedia community. And the valuable members were like,
I don't need this, never mind, I'm a volunteer sia,
and they just left. And then uh, so that meant
that you started to have more of the persistent, difficult
type and fewer of the valuable expert types. Uh. And
Sender saw that as another kind of downfall of Wikipedia,

(27:11):
and there there was there wasn't really any way to
counteract that without essentially violating kind of those philosophies that
Wikipedia was founded upon, right, and you know, one of
those philosophies is definitely that the editors and contributors should
be polite to each other, which happens sometimes, but yeah, exactly,

(27:31):
you know, it's human error. Yeah, I mean the vast
majority I think. I think the vast majority of people
who are regular contributors to Wikipedia are in general very courteous.
But all it takes are a few trolls to really
stir things up. And uh and trolls who are particularly

(27:52):
effective can cause huge amounts of frustration in a community.
Um and in fact, that's that's why they do it right.
With a little effort, they make a big impact. And
uh boy, we did a whole episode on how trolls work.
It was a great one. You guys should go back
and listen to that one. But in summer of two
thousand one, someone ended up using the editing tools to

(28:14):
vandalize the front page of Wikipedia, because that was one
of the ones you could edit back in those days.
And uh, and so they vandalized it, and then someone
tried to archive the vandalized page, so Singer when end
deleted the archive. So then they kind of reposted the
archives somewhere else and Singer went in and deleted that,
and this became a big kerfuffle between Singer and the community.

(28:35):
The community not the entire community. But there were sections
of the community that said, you are overstepping your balance, right,
this is not yours to do this with your abusing powers. Yeah,
the fact that you have the ability to do that
doesn't mean that you are that you should do that.
Like you, you are capable of doing that, but you
should not do it and uh and Singer was like,

(28:57):
this is kind of silly. The whole point of this
is that we don't want the vandalized version of Wikipedia
to be a representation of Wikipedia. We don't want that
to come up in search because it hurts the community.
I don't see where the problem is. And others were saying, no,
no, no no, that's beside the point. It doesn't matter what
the content is. It is the matter. The matter is
that you've deleted it. You've overset. If you start deleting,

(29:17):
then where does it end. Right, You've bypassed the whole process,
and by bypassing it, you've rendered the process meaningless. And
it went from kerfuffle to shenanigans. Well in uh in
two thousand two. February two thousand two, Singer is laid
off of Wikipedia. At that point, the dot com bubble
bursting had really started to take its effect. Newpedia essentially

(29:40):
was petering out at that point, and uh and at
first Singer was had his had his salary reduced a
couple of times I think, and then he was laid off.
He continued to work in a volunteer capacity for a
little while. Also in February two thousand two, the Spanish
language version of Wikipedia forked off of the main version

(30:01):
and became Encyclopedia Libre. And the reason for the split
was that the the people working on the Spanish side
were worried that there was going to be problems with censorship,
I think, things like Saner deleting stuff. And also there
was worry that Wikipedia would soon start to institute advertising

(30:23):
on its site to monetize Wikipedia, and that there was
a worry there that by monetizing Wikipedia, you would compromise
the site's integrity, which is something that Saner was saying
didn't exist because of the lack of peer review. So
it's kind of this interesting like you're you're you're going
to ruin the integrity of the site, and Sanders like
what integrity? Uh So that was an interesting discussion, and

(30:45):
in August of two thousand two, Jimmy Wales said that
Wikipedia would never run ads on its site, and in fact,
that's also when Wikipedia dot com became Wikipedia dot org
as sort of an an example of this is this
is who we are. We are not We're not a
we're not a company, We're an organization. Uh. In December

(31:07):
of that year, in two thousand two, they launched wctionary,
which is kind of funny because there was a whole
page on Wikipedia about how Wikipedia is not a diction dictionary,
so they did dictionary. Now, Lauren, let me ask you this.
Do you think now I can understand the value of
an open source, crowdsourced encyclopedia because there are huge disciplines

(31:31):
of knowledge out there. There are people who are experts,
and there are people who have experience with it, their
researchers who really know what they're doing when they're looking
into that sort of stuff. And the more minds you
bring into an encyclopedia, the better chance you have of
getting a fuller picture of whatever it is. Right, do
you see the same thing being valuable in the dictionary? Well, okay,

(31:54):
the thing about dictionaries I think now that you ask me,
is that, um, you know, there are these really terrific,
very thorough sources like the Oxford English. It's probably the
pinnacle of English dictionaries. If if I'm allowed to make
that kind of qualitative statement right now, American heritage myself.
But you know, well I said that about you, John,
I support my I support my country. Why do you

(32:15):
hate America? Lauren? What do you hate America? But well,
because okay, so so they're they're the there are these
large resource dictionaries that have a terrific wealth of historical
information behind them. Um, however, they are a little bit
slow on the uptake of new words, I see. So
you would see the value of dictionary being something that
could incorporate words that are entering the lexicon that would

(32:38):
maybe take five to ten years to start at at
the at the fastest speed possible, five to ten years
to be incorporated into a dictionary classic dictionary. Right And
also you know, to to do it in a way
that is that is, you know, a not branded because
because as as as much as I as much as
I do love very specific dictionaries, they're their brands, their companies.

(32:59):
They're they're out there to make a profit. Um at
the end of the day, and so so having an
open source one is a really terrific idea, and having
one that's perhaps better policed than, for example, Urban Dictionary.
I think I think it's a good a good thing
to do. Okay, although to be fair, it's still community police.

(33:19):
Well it is, but I would say that the quality
of policing on Wictionary versus Urban Dictionary is um, that's fair.
That's fair. I I can I can agree to that
because I don't know if any policing that happens on urbans,
I don't think that that's a thing. So June two
thousand three, Whales announces the Wikimedia Foundation, which is a
nonprofit that administrates Wikipedia, And in September two thousand three,

(33:43):
Nupedia's servers crash and it never comes back. Yeah, it
just shuts down. The computer failed. So we're just gonna
believe it. I don't think it ever really got more
than those articles. That was I think that was about it,
kind of the peak. Yeah. Wow, So new Pedia was
a failed experiment. Wikipedia, the what was originally going to
just be a little offshoot of Newpedia was already a

(34:06):
rousing success. Yeah. Yeah. There were many other non English
sites that were that were launching around that time, I
think that not all of them had officially split off yet,
but there were there were at least seventeen different languages
being worked on within Wikipedia. Well, We've got a lot
more to talk about with Wikipedia, but before we do,
let's take a quick break to thank our sponsor. Alright,

(34:26):
now back to Wikipedia. Okay, So we just talked about
two thousand three. Do you have anything between two thousand
three and two thousand five, because otherwise I'm just going
to skip around ahead. Um. I believe that in two
thousand four, Wikia was founded, which is which is the
for profit uh kind of branch of Wikipedia that um,
that maintains a whole bunch of of entertainment mostly related wikis. Um.

(34:47):
I think I think that the the Wikipedia is among
them stuff like that. Okay, And you know, those are
the wikis that I've recently become more and more familiar with,
because you know, pretty much any kind of entertainment thing
out there has its own wiki, to the point where
I'm like, I can't believe this has a wiki. I
can't believe tech stuff doesn't anyway, But so so in

(35:11):
these these are ads supported, um, however, they're still community
run and uh, you know, yeah, right right, so so similar.
But again this is following moral on the Wiki lines
of philosophy rather than the Wikipedia one. Because again, one
of the things Stanger also said in his in his
talks or in his writings was that, um, you know,

(35:31):
he he saw that the Wicki philosophy was kind of
counter to that of an encyclopedia, like the two did
not did not move, you know, I didn't mention a
very very seamless way, and that uh, that that was
a concern to him, but that he felt that because
Wikipedia was specifically supposed to be an encyclopedia, it helped

(35:52):
guide the policies, uh, for better or for worse. So
it's the community on Wikipedia is not exactly the same
as what you would find on your average wiki because
the process is slightly different because it has a very
specific purpose to be an encyclopedia. Well. Uh. In two
thousand five, Wired published a report that said that Jimmy

(36:16):
Wales had done something that's generally frowned upon within the
Wikipedia community, and that is to edit your own page
eighteen times. Apparently, and supposedly the edits that were made,
um were removing things like, uh, like Sander's involvement in
the early genesis of Wikipedia. Yeah, essentially, there was there

(36:38):
was a charge that Wales had removed a sentence that
had referred to Sander as a co founder of Wikipedia. Um.
And then there were other things as well. That's that
Wales said was it was just an attempt to remove
some inaccuracies. It wasn't. He wasn't trying to white washing
anything or cleaning it out according to what he was
saying anyway, but still defends this, by the way, right

(37:00):
in general, that that's considered bad form on Wikipedia. It's not.
It's not explicitly against the rules. If you're not, you're
generally I mean you're you're generally if if you find
it an accuracy about something that concerns you due to
an end they have an acrony important and all. Um Uh.
It is the conflict of interest a bit of it

(37:22):
that that, Yeah, that you're supposed to submit it to
an editor who can then make a non conflict of
interest judgment call about whether or not that it needs
to be made. That's interesting that particular sequence is going
to play an important part towards the end of this
timeline conversation, definitely, because it turns out some people have
taken advantage of that particular approach to the point where

(37:42):
they have been able to inserta misleading information or at
least leaving out important truths in the process of quote
unquote correcting or adding to an article. But we'll get
to that in a moment. Yeah, so Wales ends up
getting heat for this. Uh, even though to this day

(38:03):
he says that it wasn't it was not a big deal.
It's not that he doesn't even say he didn't do
anything wrong. He's like, I don't understand what the big
deal is here was fixing errors? He's He's like, yeah,
I did it. There was nothing wrong with what I did,
So calm down. But then, you know, other people would say, well,
if you had just gone through the regular channels, then
it would have been another story. Uh. May of two

(38:24):
thousand five was when we had uh an anonymous user
who was later identified but I'm not going to say
the name here, but he posted comments in an article
about Segon Dollar, John Seon Dollar, saying that he was
a suspect and the assassinations of both John and Robert Kennedy.
Segon Dollar as a journalist and was a friend to

(38:46):
Robert Kennedy actually one of his palm bearers. So Segon
Dollar said that this amounted to Internet character assassination. The
comments were a hoax. It was supposed to be a joke,
although I don't know who would find this particularly Yeah,
but the hoax. It was made in May, but it

(39:07):
wasn't discovered until September of two thousand five, and then
the mainstream media caught hold of the story and began
to cover it. And this ended up being a big
black eye on Wikipedia because everyone ran with the story saying,
how can you trust a resource that anyone can go
into and change and vandalize or create a hoax like this,

(39:29):
create a joke, Yeah, insert completely false information, or delete
something so that whatever is left is not an accurate
portrayal of the actual subject. Crow the entire side is useless. Yeah,
you know what, the facialist media is kind of right, right.
It definitely escalated to from hey, sometimes you can't trust

(39:49):
what's on Wikipedia to Wikipedia is bad because people are
evil and they will mislead you. Uh. And and by
the way, I don't really think either extreme is healthy.
While I often will dismiss Wikipedia in any sort of
academic approach. I am not one to say that it's all.

(40:11):
There's some things about Wikipedia that I find genuinely amusing,
and there's some things I find genuinely helpful. But but yeah,
I would never go so far on either side. It's
good to know. So April two thousand six, we have
another scandal. A guy from Glasgow whose name I will

(40:31):
not be able to say, Alan mickel Wraith, mickil Wraith.
It's gonna be mckil wrath. Have it in front of me.
That's it's got to be mickil rayth m c I
l w R a I t H mckill wraith. So
he created a Wikipedia entry about himself that betrayed him
as a decorated army officer, something that he was not.

(40:54):
And again the mainstream media picked up on this and said, like,
here's a guy who was promoting himself. Uh, created a
false identity for himself and uh, and this shows that
you can't trust what's on Wikipedia. Yeah. Meanwhile, all this
bad press was not particularly affecting the growth of Wikipedia.

(41:15):
By by mid two thousand six, I think that they
had five million articles. Yeah, this is they went from
uh they had one million in English. But probably five
million I think total total. Yeah, so right, right, yeah,
there's a little bit of debate about well yeah, because
I got confused. I saw at one point, like in
two thousand four they hit one million articles, and then
I read later like in two thousand and six they
hit one million articles again, and then I realized, oh wait,

(41:38):
the first one two thousand four was one million articles
total across all languages. Two thousand six was one million
in English. But it was the growth was incredible. Uh.
And in two thousand seven we have another scandal. This
is when it was discovered that a Wikipedia editor who
was using a handle called s J E S. S

(41:59):
J A Y was discovered to have also created a
false identity. In this case, s J had been uh
posing as someone who held a PhD uh in uh
in theology, I assume, because he was saying that he
was a tenured professor with an expertise in Kennon law,

(42:21):
and in reality he was a twenty four year old
guy who had been to several colleges in Kentucky. An
expert perhaps, but objectively speaking, he was saying that he
had created this identity in order to give himself a
buffer so that people who disagreed with him would not
be able to attack him personally. So, in other words,
he was just creating a handle. It's just a little

(42:42):
bit more, uh more involved than just a handle. But
here's the problem. He was also using his fake credentials
to back up his arguments whenever he was making edits. Yeah,
that's that's that, that's going beyond. He's saying, like, because
of my expertise in this field, I know that this
particular thing should be worded this way rather than that way.

(43:03):
And he didn't hold those credentials. So the New Yorker
writes about Wikipedia, and they write about s J before
finding out that s J is not who he claims
to be. Then the information breaks that s J is
actually someone else, and the New Yorker ends up writing
a pretty strongly worded response to that, and again mainstream

(43:27):
media blows up, and online it blows up. The community
begins to sift through all the edits that s J
made on Wikipedia, particularly in the places where he was
using his false credentials to bolster his arguments, because now
the community has the responsibility to fix this, or if
if in fact needs to be fixed, they have to
address it. So that they can again show that Wikipedia

(43:51):
is something you can rely upon at least or that
it's at least useful and not just be raised to
the ground. Yeah, it's not just a database of information
you cannot really be sure is accurate or not. Uh,
it was, you know, it was fighting a powerful perception problem,
right right right? That was also, did did you? Uh?

(44:12):
That was also the year two thousand and seven that
Virgil griff Griffith released wicket Scanner. I don't know about
this one, okay, so so so Wicker Scanner Um was
this you know, terrific little program that he wrote that
whenever an unregistered anonymous user edits Wikipedia entry, the site
logs the user's IP address, and and this can come
in terrifically handy because you know, it's not not all

(44:35):
the problems are with people pretending to be who they aren't.
When an anonymous user can log in and talk about
anything that they want to, you know, for the kind
of things that we're coming out of this Wicker Scanner
business were facts like people from Apple I p addresses
had been editing Microsoft pages on Wikipedia and vice versa,

(44:55):
which is another reason why we find Wikipedia. It's it's
one of those reas. Why it's hard to trust stuff
because sometimes people with an agenda will go in and
adjust a uh AN entry, either to make one party
and it look better than than it would otherwise have
looked or look worse, depending upon the person's agenda. Sure, yeah, yeah,

(45:17):
I member, you know, and and Democratic Party member's IP
address was traced to edits about Rush Limbaugh that we're
extremely unflattering. Yeah, this is This has happened any election year.
This stuff runs rampant, to the point where sometimes Wikipedia
will lock down a particular page about a subject in

(45:37):
order to avoid the crazy number of edits that different
sides of a debate will will put onto a page
in order to support their side. I mean, then think
about it. This is kind of crazy, right. It's like
if I if I have a disagreement with Lauren about
a particular subject, and then I go to Wikipedia and
edit a page so it supports my argument, and then
I cite Wikipedia as a support for my argument. That's

(46:01):
it's pretty insidious. That's dirty pool, that's what that is.
And I don't want to say that all anonymous Wikipedia
editors are are bad or doing nefarious thing, not at all.
For example, A couple of the other things came out
of this is that they found out that a UM
someone from the CIA contributed a really long entry about
lightsaber combat, UM someone from DARPA had written fairly extensively

(46:23):
about Schila booth. I mean, you know, it's it's just stuff.
You know, it's not always bad, right, Yeah, But and
we don't mean to suggest that it's always bad or
that this happens all the time. It's the fact that
it happens that's the problem. And you don't, you know,
unless you are actually adept at looking at the edits
page and understanding what that means, you may not be

(46:43):
aware of something that's going on that's not quite right.
And so uh. While while the odds of that actually
happening on any given page on any given day maybe low,
because you're talking about lots and lots of people using
this resource and lots of opportunities to fiddle with it,
it does happen. That's that's why you're like, you know,

(47:03):
the answ are with you that you're going to be
fine whenever you use Wikipedia, but they're still there are
like thousand regular contributors and seventy seven thousand regular editors
on Wikipedia as so, and after that whole UH, that
whole problem with Seagan Dollar where the the quote unquote
the joke about him being a suspect in the assassination

(47:24):
of the Kennedy's UH, Wales had instituted a new policy
saying that unregistered users can no longer post new articles
at all, because that was that he wanted to head
off that problem, and then by registering he hoped that
that would UH create more accountability. Now, of course the
s J issue showed that there were other problems, and
Wales came down pretty hard on that to Once all

(47:46):
the facts came out in two thousand nine, the Arbitration
Committee had to restrict access to its site from the
Church of Scientology I p addresses and also banned several
anti Scientologists edits because the two sides were both manipulating
the same articles to either post Scientology and a positive

(48:06):
or a negative light. Obviously when that that was around
when UH Anonymous I believe was really involved in in
their crash campaign, so that the thing that was coming
up into question was the neutral point of view here,
and both sides were trying to use Wikipedia to bolster
their own arguments. Uh, and whether you side with one

(48:27):
or the other, it was clear that both sides had
agendas and uh, you know, some of those people may
have been trying very hard to create an objective post,
but there were a lot of people who really weren't.
And that's where the banning and the and the IP
address blocking came in. And that same year, Wikipedia became
licensed under a Creative Commons right yeah, yeah, UM, which

(48:49):
which basically just means that it's it's licensed under their
UM share and share like yeah. So in other words,
you don't have to worry about, uh, get ing chased
down by lawyers when you're reusing this material and another
and you cannot, like a person who contributes to Wikipedia
cannot claim that work to be their own at all.

(49:10):
They have they have essentially signed off right right, you know,
it's the content UM is still technically owned by the contributors,
but it is freely reproducible and distributable. Yeah, and when
anyone can go in and edit it. Actually, that was
one of those things that people worried about early on
in Wikipedia said, wait a minute, I'm an awesome writer.
I write awesome things. My officer of credit for my

(49:31):
awesome things or or I even if I don't get credit,
I certainly shouldn't be subjected to seeing other plebeians coming
in and editing my awesome prose where I wrote this
amazing piece on Optimus Prime and his importance to Western culture,
and some idiot came in and said that he turned
into this model of of a of a Semitruck, when

(49:52):
clearly it was this other model of Yeah, that's that.
That was like an actual argument that happened on Wikipedia, early, early, early,
early on. Um. But people have to let go because
that's kind of the way Wikipedia works. And as a writer,
I can completely understand what the people who get really
antsy about that. Although I would often turn my writing
assignments into Chris and then never see them again until

(50:14):
they were published on the page, and I was all
right with it. Uh, you learned to let go here
and how I learned to let go? And I learned
that this way, I don't have to look at those
red marks all over my paper because Chris just fixed
it himself. It was awesome. It made me feel like
I was a better writer than I actually was. Uh.
In two thousand and twelve, do you have anything between
actually we're going to wrap up the timeline pretty soon.

(50:36):
The two thousand and twelve the big story I have was,
of course that Wikipedia took place in the blackout day
on January And yeah, Pippa, Sorry, it's fine, you haven't.
You haven't been through the whole ordeal of talking about
Sopa and Pippa. I called it Pipa for about three
weeks until everyone else in technology just consistently called it Pippa.

(50:58):
And it's alright, final, I'm been wrong this whole time.
But yeah, Sopa and Pippa. Those were, of course the
online Piracy Acts that were in consideration in Congress in
the United States, and several sites ended up doing blackouts
to protest this proposed legislation, UH, to bring more attention
to it, and say, these the way these these laws,

(51:19):
or these these potential laws are worded, they could seriously
harm the operation of the Internet and and cause trouble
to lots of people and lots of organizations, and they
should not be turned into law. UH. And then in
two thousand thirteen, Oh but but before before we leave,
two important cultural note. That is the year that Encyclopedia
Britannica ceased publishing on paper after two hundred and forty

(51:43):
four years of doing so. You know, it's also kind
of interesting. There was I remember, and I didn't write
this down in my my research because it didn't actually
it didn't occur to me while I was researching it.
But I remember specifically there was a time when Wikipedia
was starting to consider looking for experts to send in articles,
just like the old New PDIA days. They were they

(52:04):
were actually thinking about going to experts to get expert
subject matter experts to write information for Wikipedia. At the
same time, Britannica was looking at the possibility of crowdsourcing articles.
So it looked like for a moment that these two
models were about the flip flop that didn't actually happen
that way, but I remember hearing about that or my

(52:25):
brain just inventedive one of the two. Also interesting cultural
point in between two thousand eight and two thousand twelve,
this kind of dead space that that we have created,
first of on our timeline here, um, the Wikimedia Foundation
total assets went from five point six million to about
forty nine point three million. And again it's existing on
donations and donations only and and so, and that's that's

(52:45):
fabulous for the concept of shared knowledge, I think. Right,
that also really interesting to see what kind of I
mean to know exactly what they mean when they when
they have those giant banners every year to beg for money, right, Yeah,
when you see Jimmy Wells face on their saying every page, yeah,
give money so that this can continue to exist. I mean,
and not that you shouldn't donate. I just you know,

(53:06):
I just think that it's it's an interestingly, it's it's
a really cool number. Yeah, And I think it's it's
it's cool that they took that approach. I mean, it
definitely gives them the benefit of saying, look, we're not
beholden to any organization or company. We are accepting their
nation crowd crowd source, and this this is really meant
to be a tool to enrich the human race. Really,

(53:29):
it's it's meant to really make things better for everybody.
And it's not meant to be the platform for one
company to say, hey, by our stuff instead of that
other guy's stuff. One two the teams speaking about companies.
So that's this year. Earlier this year a story broke
that British Petroleum or BP, I should say BP. The

(53:53):
Brits hate it when I say British Petroleum, because they said, look,
you don't bring us into this fault. The story was
that BP had edited its own Wikipedia page. Uh, maybe
rewriting up to the content in order to make the
environmental impact at the oil spell Yeah, the deep water
horizon and the Gulf to make that seem less bad.

(54:19):
Maybe it's kind of hard to word this properly, but
essentially that they had sort of whitewashed the disaster and
the follow up to it. Uh. And here here I'm
quoting this directly from c NET, which reported on this.
BP is not directly editing its page, but instead has
apparently inserted a BP representative into the editing community who

(54:44):
provides Wikipedia editors with text. The text is then copied
as is onto the page by Wikipedia editors, while readers
are none the wiser that sections pretending to be unbiased
information are in fact vetted by higher ups at EP
before hitting the page. BP's image clean up cleverly skirts

(55:05):
Wikipedia's editorial rules, wherein Wikipedia editors are using text that
VP posts on Wikipedia itself as the source, although the
text is not published on BP's website. This way, the
significant involvement of BP in its own entry is completely
hidden from Wikipedia readers, while Wikipedia editors, as usual argue

(55:25):
and attack each other over editorial policy, while BPS favorable
pr editing continues, right and uh, alright, so so there
there's really one person who was submitting these changes. Uh,
someone by the name of Arturo silver Silva pardon me, um.
He was from the corporate communications department in Houston and um,
and he was actually going through the correct channels to

(55:48):
submit these changes. He he suggested the changes to editors.
He identified himself as a BP employee to those editors.
So essentially what was happening was that he was playing
by the rules. It was technically in good faith, aside
from the part that that you know, it was still whitewashing,
whitewashing the whole, the whole situation. Right. So so these

(56:08):
are like when we were talking about earlier about how
you know, Jimmy Wales had edited his own, uh, his
own article, and that he should have gone through the
proper channels. These are those channels that we were talking about.
This is what the VP person was doing, but it
was still putting in possibly you know, you might say
biased information is clearly clearly biased. It's from the company

(56:31):
that the page is about, So you can't you know,
there's no way it could be unbiased. If I write
my own Wikipedia page, that's going to be biased. Even
if I think I'm being objective, I'm still going to
talk about how freaking awesome I am. You know, so right,
But you know, I don't know, like like at that point,
I would personally, and this is speaking as an editor,
so I might be a little bit upity about it.
I would blame the editors at that because because if

(56:53):
they're not if they're not going like, yeah, this is
maybe not the right source to trust this information from
UM and this is going beyond a factual a clearly
factual change. They're not showing good editorial judgment. Correct, Yeah,
I I agree with that. And uh and so you know,
Jimmy Wales actually came down again and said that that

(57:13):
while BP is saying essentially that they totally played by
the rules, he said, that's not what the rules are
there to protect. The rules are there to protect against
the kind of stuff that this this company is pulling.
It's just this company is pulling the tricks within the
context of the rules, which either means that the rules
themselves are faulty or the people who are who are

(57:33):
in charge, like the editors like you were saying, Lauren,
are faulty at any rate. This is something that if
I you know, I don't want to put words into
wales His mouth, but I assume from what he has
said he would not want this to have happened. Um So, anyway,
all of that being said, there's an awful lot of
information on Wikipedia, and a lot of that over two

(57:54):
million articles in two languages in fact, and that there's
stuff on there. It's incredibly useful. I mean I I
use Wikipedia casually all the time, probably every day. It
is incredibly useful. Um But because of what we've talked about,
that's why a lot of teachers and and publications like

(58:17):
How Stuff Works say you cannot use Wikipedia as a source.
And it's because of the reasons we've listed. It's not
that it's a bad thing. I actually think that Wikipedia
is an amazing idea and it's it's actually phn novel
to me that's worked as well as it has, right, right,
you know, considering that that certain certain portions the Internet
can definitely be a wretched have of scummon villainy, right,

(58:37):
if you look at YouTube comments and then you think,
this is the same This is the same world that
we live in where we can go to Wikipedia and
read an article about something, you know, something really technically advanced,
and get a really good understanding of it. Uh, and
it's this is a collaborative effort on the part of
possibly hundreds of people. And then you go to YouTube

(58:59):
and you read the comments and you think, how is
this the same world? How what happened? Uh? So you know,
it's amazing. But there are also some things that you
can poke some fun at, like, uh, there was a
I wish I could remember which web comic this was,
and listeners, if you happen to know what I'm referring to,
if you've been reading web comics forever and the strikes
a chord, let me know. But I remember reading a

(59:20):
web comic ages ago where was a whole series about Wikipedia,
and one of the things they pointed out, very snarkily
was if you were to assume that the the the
entries that have the most words are the most important
to the human race, then Optimus Prime would be way
more important than Neighbraham Lincoln. I feel like that was

(59:43):
Penny Arcade somebody, somebody, please please write in and tell
me that. I can tell you it was not Penny Arcade. Well,
I mean, Penny Arcade very well may have made that
same joke, but I don't read Penning Up Penny Arcade,
so I know it wasn't Pinning Arcade. All right, Well
that's fair. I'm not I'm not criticizing p Look, I
don't read any web comics anymore. I just don't have
the time. But I used to read a lot of them.

(01:00:05):
I recall. I recall seeing that that as well. At
any rate, whoever created it, somebody, somebody writing and tell
us because it's gonna bug otherwise. I used to. You
know what's worse, I used to have these pinned up
in my cubicle. They're not up there anymore, but I
used to. I can't even remember, but I used to
have them. There's a whole bunch of them. Um. But anyway,
that's one of those things. That's one of those things

(01:00:26):
that you could joke about, is that that seemingly irrelevant
things would get a huge amount of attention because they
were they were interesting that, you know, especially stuff in
geek culture that people are really really passionately uh, interested
in like you know, which again shows you why they're

(01:00:46):
these wikis now that exist all around these properties, right right,
and that's a perfect format for that kind of level
of minutia of interstory detail. I mean, it's ridiculous when
I can look up a comic book character and see
every single iteration of that comic book character, and then
I look up and someone who was fundamentally important in

(01:01:07):
some huge moment in history and they have a fraction
of that Not that you not that you couldn't cover
the important contributions of that person in that amount of space.
You might be able to, but it just gives you
this weird feeling like if I were to put these
in scales, this one so heavy. Any But yeah, and
you know what Wikipedia is as as of January, fifth

(01:01:30):
most popular website in the world, behind only Google, Yahoo, Microsoft,
and Facebook, and in fact ahead of Amazon, Apple, and eBay.
So I yeah, I mean they're doing and again there's
a lot of valuable stuff on there. So I know
that we definitely kind of criticized Wikipedia quite a bit
in this this podcast, but keep in mind we're talking

(01:01:52):
about specifically in the use for things like academic like
academic research, and I do want to say what we
do what Jonathan and I both do. I think, um,
we'll did we say this already? We we we we
go to Wikipedia and we go straight to the resource section.
You look at the references and you take a look
and take a look and see like because there you
can learn more about you know, go to the places

(01:02:13):
where the people who have written the article on Wikipedia,
where they got their information from. Because I mean that
also allows you to remove the interpreter as well, right,
because anytime you're reading an article in Wikipedia, you're reading
an interpretation of someone else's stuff. Because you know, that's
another thing we didn't mention on Wikipedia. You do not
publish primary information. You don't publish information for the first

(01:02:35):
time Wikipedia specifically against the rules. Yeah, you have to.
You have to. If you're going to present a fact
that someone could look up and verify or reject, you
have to be able to cite it. And you cannot
just do primary publication right there. You know, it can't
be like this is this is original research and publishing.
You can't do that. Um. And so it's in theory,

(01:02:59):
everything that's verifiable fact within a Wikipedia entry should be
referenced somehow. This can also get kind of ridiculous when
you start reading things that are, you know, demonstrably true
and everyone knows it, and then at the very end
of the sentence you see site yeah, like like need citations?
Know that the sun, the sun exists. I know that

(01:03:19):
we don't need a citation. Yeah, And sometimes I wonder
if that's just trolling as well. Sometimes I'm sure editor
trolling where it's like, could you can you provide me
with a site citation to prove that this thing that
everyone knows is actually a thing. Anyway, So that's our
discussion about Wikipedia. Uh. If you guys have suggestions for
topics we should cover in future episodes of tech Stuff,

(01:03:41):
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(01:04:08):
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