December 12, 2012 • 34 mins
Who is John McAfee and what did he create? Why are police in Belize searching for McAfee? Who are some other tech geniuses with odd traits? In this episode, Jonathan and Chris explore McAfee's history, innovations and, of course, the recent controversy.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Brought to you by the two thousand twelve Toyota Camry.
Get in touch with technology with tech Stuff from how
Stuff What Stop Coming? Hello again everyone, and welcome to
tech Stuff. My name is Chris Poulette and I'm an
editor here at how Stuff work dot com, say named
(00:21):
crush from me and as always a senior writer Jonathan Strick.
Hey there. So, yeah, there's been some interesting news about
some tech personalities lately as of the time we're recording
this towards the end of November, and um, you know,
we've talked to a lot about people who have very
strong personalities, people like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs and um,
(00:45):
you know, very very powerful personalities there. Uh. They may
be friendly, they may be you know, have thorny anger,
management problems or whatever. But for the most part, you know,
you can see a pretty good picture of the person involved. Um,
and then there are other people who you go, wait what, Yeah,
(01:10):
We've had a pretty big one of those towards the
end of there's a spectrum of of normal, right right,
there's some people who are further out on the edges
of that spectrum. I would say people like Steve Jobs
and Bill Gates are a little further out on that
spectrum than others because they are very They were both
very driven. Of course Steve Jobs unfortunately passed away, but
(01:31):
both very driven individuals who were passionate about their interests
and UM, and both reportedly had times when they were
not the most pleasant of people to be around. So
so yeah, you've got that whole spectrum thing. Well that
we wanted to talk today about some people who kind
of fall outside that spectrum to the point where you'd say,
(01:52):
all right, either this person has something seriously wrong going
on with them, or perhaps the things that are being
reported about this person are putting them in a really
bad light. But in any way, they are clearly they're
they're in a situation that is not normal, and they
themselves may not be what we would call normal. UM.
(02:13):
And the first one we wanted to talk about was
the one who was in the news recently is John McAfee.
And McAfee is a guy who's he's been known as
being an eccentric for uh for more than a decade UM.
But McAfee he was born in England and raised in Virginia.
He went to Roanoke College and got a degree in mathematics.
(02:35):
From that college, UH, he spent time as a programmer
for NASA's Institute for Space Studies. He worked for a
couple of big companies. He worked for Univac, he worked
for Xerox. UH nineteen seventy eight, he joined the Computer
Sciences Corporation, and then he started working for Lockheed. And
while he was working for Lockheed, that's when he started
(02:56):
to develop the software that he has really become known for.
In fact, it shares his name, the McAfee anti virus software.
While at LOCKEED he was he became very interested in
this idea of detecting and removing computer viruses because they
were just really starting to blossom at that time. We're
(03:17):
talking about UM the late eighties, and you know, this
is before we really get into the eras of web.
The Web doesn't really exist yet, actually doesn't exist yet
in the in the eighties UM, and very few companies
have access to some of the other Internet UM functionalities
(03:40):
like file transfer protocols or email, although they do exist
at this time. But he was he could see that
there was this rise in computer viruses and that because
computers followed directions, there are ways of creating directions that
make your computer do things that you don't necessarily want
it to do, whether that's completely filling up a hard
(04:02):
drive with meaningless information and breaking it, or installing some
sort of of of uh trojan program that protects a
nasty piece of malware from being detected. He was very
much dedicated to creating software that would that would find
(04:23):
that and remove it. Now, UM, it's interesting to note
a little bit about his his background and UM I
read not too long ago a piece from released by
Wired called John McAfee's Last Stand by Joshua Davis. They
also have a an e book available on Amazon that
(04:46):
you can purchase. I think it's nine cents and I
think it's a I want to say it's thirteen chapter
something like that. Yeah, yeah, it's it's not a long
long book, but it's you know, more than an article. Yeah,
because apparently this from Wired was there for like six months. Yea. Um,
but yeah, he he had been um, you know, as
(05:07):
he was working for uh, you know, companies like omex
Um in the early nineteen eighties. I mean he was
a pretty heavy drug user. Apparently I used cocaine, coeludes. Um,
you know, he he had been a pretty heavy drinker
before that, even in his college days. It looks like
um and apparently got to a point where he decided,
(05:29):
you know, that was it, he wasn't going to do
this anymore. And he really straightened up, um cleaned up.
And this was you know, this was before he really
got the idea to go in and do this himself,
to launch his own company. Um so. And you know,
it's not that I necessarily want to uh smear mud
on John McAfee so much as I think it provides
some context for for the kinds of things that happened
(05:52):
later on in his life. Sure, and uh he made
some interesting decisions with that software that he created. One
of those was that he decided upon the shareware distribution model,
which ended up being a very effective way for him
to get that software out there on the market. Um So.
In eighties seven he formed McAfee Associates, which was essentially
(06:15):
in charge of creating this MacAfee antivirus software. But it
wasn't that much longer. I mean, it was just in
ninety four when he resigned from the company, and a
couple of years later he sold his his stake uh
in the company entirely and just completely got away from it. Um.
At one point I hear that he was valued at
(06:37):
around a hundred million dollars. He himself stated that due
to the economic depression and downturn and and all these
other issues, that he was reduced too closer to four
million dollars uh after that was all over, although more
recently in two thousand twelve, he said that that was
(06:59):
probably not entirely accurate. He may he may in fact
have had a bit more than four million dollars UM.
And this is where we start getting into some pretty
strange stuff. Um. He one thing was that he was
really interested in this this concept of quorum sensing, now
(07:19):
uh quick. Quarum sensing, especially when it refers to bacteria,
is a way of the bacteria have of reacting in
a certain manner, and that manner is completely dependent upon
how much bacteria is present at that time. So in
other words, if you were to provide a stimulus to
these bacteria, they would provide a response that would be
(07:43):
based mostly upon how many other uh instances of that
bacteria are present. So if there is x number or greater,
it will respond one way, but if it's fewer than that,
it will respond a different way, and uh my Coufee
said that he was doing this in order to try
and develop new anti beyodics, antibacterial treatments, things that could
(08:07):
help humans, uh in a medicinal way. And he relocated
to two Belize, just in Central America. Uh the only
country in Central America, by the way, for which English
is the official language, although from what I understand it
is not the most prevalent language spoken there. It is however,
the official one. Anyway, he moved to Belize, um created
(08:31):
this lab in his home, you know, apparently a pretty
large compound there, but he has a lab at that compound.
That was from what he was saying, all about studying
this stuff to try and create better medicines, mostly medicines
that he was looking at. He was looking at a
(08:51):
lot of natural elements, things that were um found out
in rainforests, things like that as the key to these
sort of medicines. That's what he was claiming. Yeah, it
would seem that his his entrepreneurial spirit hasn't completely left
because he's done this. He's also even apparently tried to
(09:13):
come up with a a sport. Yes, when he was
living out in the Southwest and this is before he
moved to Belieze. Um. Apparently, Um, I was listening to
a radio report from someone who had been uh you know,
who had met McAfee more than once, and he said, yeah,
I want you to come out here and check out
this new sport, apparently, narrow trekking. You're supposed to fly,
(09:36):
I don't know, very very close to the ground. Um.
You fly very low to the ground using uh, some
form of aircraft. It might even be a hang glider
with a motor attached to it. But the idea is
that you are flying close to the ground so that
you get that real sense of speed and danger from
being you know, just a very short distance away from
(09:59):
crashing to a potential terrible injury or death. And in fact,
McAfee was involved in a wrongful death lawsuit that was
the result of a person dying from an arrow trekking accident. Um,
So I mean this was you know, he's known as
a daredevil as well as many other things, which will
(10:21):
I guess we can kind of segue into. Now this
is gonna get really weird, folks, because here here's the
thing is that there are a lot of different reports.
There's what McAfee has said through or we presume it's McAfee,
through various blogs and Twitter account Twitter messages, things like that,
there are things that he has said, there are things
that people who know him have have said. There's things
(10:43):
that journalists who have investigated this have said, and honestly
we don't have the whole story. But no matter who's
telling the story, it's weird. UM has known that the
Polize police have visited him on more than on occasion. Yes,
they're their gangs unit actually rated his house in April
(11:06):
two twelve, the Gang Suppression Unit in Orange Walk Down Belize.
They rated his home under suspicion that his laboratory was
actually producing crystal meth. That that was in fact what
he was interested in making and not UM medicine. And
in fact there are there are journalists, they're bloggers who
have said that UM that that McAfee was very active
(11:31):
in online discussion forums that were dedicated to drug manufacturer
like as an illicit drugs or or recreational drugs. UM.
Although there is a woman who UM he talked into
a job offer to come down and work on UH
medicinal drugs as well. So that again this is their
(11:51):
conflicting report, right, So, so they could be that these
reports that he was the one who was on these
recreational drug sites, maybe that wasn't him because there they
were using uh uh pseudonyms, I mean handles, they weren't
It wasn't just him there. But Gismoto published a report
that very much seemed to indicate that he was one
(12:12):
of the people on this recreational drug forum talking about
trying to perfect a typical kind of drug that would,
um well, supposed to enhance his his sexual experiences as
well as give a sense of euphoria and supposedly would
create a very gradual and mellow come down afterward. So uh,
(12:39):
and he the guy who was posting under this name,
posted a lot about this particular kind of drug. Um
Whether or not that was John McAfee, however, is still
a question. Now. One of the things that people have
said is that the drugs that he was talking about
often can create a sense of paranoia in someone who's
using those drugs. Now, again, whether or not McFee was
(13:03):
using those drugs is a is a question that's left open. However,
I think it's safe to say that paranoia is something
he has felt yes, he has. He has demonstrated, UH,
paranoid tendencies. Now again there's always that joke just because
your paranoia doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
But we can't really say that, but we can definitely
(13:23):
say that he has shown some some paranoid tendencies. One
of those is trying to evade the police. Now, as
of the recording of this podcast, which is at the
end of November twelve, he's still on the run from
police and Belize, And the reason why the police are
interested in him is that someone who lived near him,
Gregory Veant Fall, was found shot dead a few several
(13:49):
meters away from UH from McAfee's property and UM. Fall
and McAfee had a history of um H arguments, some
some UH some disagreements, one of which was that Fall
said that McAfee mcfee's dogs, when I think McFee owned
(14:11):
like eleven dogs, but that his dogs were barking all
the time and that was driving Fall crazy. And UH.
One of the other issues that happened recently was that
several of McAfee's dogs, I think four of them died
of poisoning. So the implication here and again this is
all unfolding, so we don't have the full information, but
(14:31):
the implication is that perhaps Fall or someone that Fall knows,
poisoned the dogs, and that perhaps there was an act
of retribution against Fall. So when the news first broke,
it sounded like McAfee was not just a person of
interest but a suspect. Since then the police police have said, no,
he's not a suspect. We just want to talk to
him because we want to find out who killed Fall.
(14:55):
It's possible that perhaps someone around McAfee killed Fall or McAfee,
not necessarily on McAfee's command, because, as it turns out,
McAfee has seemingly started to hang out with some pretty
rough customers in Belize. Yep, the photography that that accompanies
the Wired book includes some people with some very large guns. Yeah,
(15:19):
the stories are essentially I'm sorry, I mean, there's a
guns are pretty heavily restricted in Beliefe. So the story
essentially is that it sounds like McAfee has um formed
relationships with several of the the drug gangs in Belize.
Now it may be that he was doing this in
(15:39):
an attempt to get hold of materials for his legitimate
medical you know, research that could be the case, it
would not be necessarily the wisest move a person has
ever made to get involved with drug boards, but that's
a possibility. Now a lot of other people are saying, no,
what's happening is McAfee got involved in so he could
(16:01):
get the ingredients need to make the recreational drugs that
he was interested in, which again we don't know um so. Anyway,
it's possible that maybe one of these you know, gang
members that he hangs out with committed the murder and
it wasn't McAfee at all. So we don't know if
McAfee shot Fall, or if someone McAfee knows shot him,
(16:23):
or if it was just some random crime that seems
that seems the most unrealistic of the various possibilities, but
we don't know, um so. McAfee has been on the
run and has been posting, or at least there have
been blog posts attributed to McAfee that have posted in
his absence that have made things sound even more strange,
(16:47):
for instance, that McAfee has been using elaborate disguises to
to hide in plain sight. Yes, he appeared as a
German um tourist basically using profanity and just shouting at
people randomly, or tried to uh disguise himself and hunch
over so that he didn't appear as tall as he
(17:07):
normally is, and uh spoken heavily accented English, trying to
sell trinkets to uh he said even or this person
said he even attempted to sell something to an Associated
Press reporter who didn't recognize him, a wooden dolphins. Yes, uh,
that the reporter suddenly had an urgent call to attend to. Yeah,
(17:27):
it's in the blog post McAfee, assuming it is. McAfee
claimed that he nearly sold one of these trinkets before
the AP reporter was called away. Now the police police
have been asking him to turn himself in so that
he can talk about whatever it is that happened to
fall like who who could have possibly killed him, and
to clear his name. McAfee, in turn, has said that,
(17:51):
or at least according to these reports and according to
people who know him who say they've talked to him,
says that he doesn't want to go into police custody
because he firmly believes that the police will kill him
once he's in their custody. Yeah he um he even
reacted to the that's the way he's on the run now.
Actually was because when the when the police showed up,
(18:11):
he thought they were coming to hassle him again. So
he here, that's what he says. Anyway, so he escaped
before they could catch him. He Um. So anyway, he's
saying that the police are definitely going to kill him
if they take him into custody. Uh. He's also at
one point apparently suggested that, uh that fall falls death
was really meant, was that there was a hit gone
(18:34):
wrong that was meant to hit McAfee and instead hit Fallum.
That was one of the other possibilities I heard of
the couple of weeks before we record this podcast. Um.
So it's these are these are definitely tendencies that we
would classify as paranohite. Um. And honestly, again we don't
know all the information. It maybe that perhaps McAfee is
(18:55):
a very eccentric but otherwise mostly innocent. First and now
it's true that his personal life also has some other complications.
Apparently he has several people living at that compound with him,
including several young women with whom he often has sexual relations,
and including one who is identified over and over as
(19:17):
a seventeen year old girlfriend. But then there are other women, uh,
and and at that compound as well, and so I
mean they're they're definitely. So it's kind of this weird,
larger than life, odd David Lynch sort of story thing.
Like if I saw this enough film, I would think
the Cohen Brothers made it. Yeah, it's just it's just
(19:38):
so weird when you think of somebody who has gone
down in history as coming up with a very successful
tech product. Um. You know, you you don't typically think
of that. You think of somebody like Jobs or Gates
or um, maybe Larry Ellison. Uh, you know some some
people who they've got lots of money, they live a
(20:00):
jet setter's lifestyle. Maybe maybe not um, but you don't
really typically think of you know, when you hear something like, well,
John McAfee is a person of interest in this murder case,
and really that's just strange. But but you know the
reason why we wanted to do this podcast was not
just to talk about about McAfee, although that was you know,
(20:20):
the main, the main focus, but also to talk about
some other people in technology who have displayed odd traits. Well, yeah,
that was that was the second thing that came to
my mind was you know, well he's not alone. I
mean I was thinking specifically when I talked to Jonathan
about this about a man named Hans Reiser, who also
whom I read about and wired, uh several years ago, um,
(20:43):
when he was at that point accused of murdering his wife. Um.
And uh, it was just strange to me because he was,
Um he's known for UM, he's not as famous as
as uh John McAfee would be, but he is known
for his riser f s. It's a file system for
(21:05):
for computers to store files and apparently is extremely efficient, Um,
very popular among among a certain crowd, very very popular
in various Linux distributions. Yes, yes, Um. And then you know,
and here again I'm going wait this, this person who's
you know, famous within a certain tech community is um,
(21:27):
you know it's it's wanted for murder. This is so strange. Yeah.
He married a woman named Nina Sharonova. Uh and they
met in Russia, I believe so that and that has
raised questions as to you know, was that an arranged
marriage kind of thing? But whether that is or not,
she turned up missing and uh, eventually I know it's
(21:50):
an odd, odd phrase, right. Uh, But she turned up
missing and then her body was found, and eventually Hans
rise Or was taken into custody, and uh, he was tried,
he was convicted. He ended up um getting a Originally
he was tried under first degree murder, but it was
(22:12):
reduced to second degree murder in a plea deal. But yeah,
that's that goes beyond being odd, I would say. Uh.
But yeah, certainly an example of someone who created something
very influential in technology who ended up having some very
severe problems. Well, he had, um, he had claimed that
(22:35):
she had left the country and gone back to Russia,
and um, you know I had there was nothing, nothing
there untowards of course, UM, the police had, well they
didn't have the body. They didn't know, you know, for sure,
whether she was missing or or dead. And um they
found his car with um, some bloodstains of hers in it,
(22:56):
um and an inch of water on the floorboard apparently.
And he was trying to explain how he you know,
tried to clean out his car with water and how
he was surprised to find out that card manufacturers don't
put a hole in the floor so that water will
drain out and all sorts of things apparently that made
the jury shake their heads. And then finally he just said,
you know, look, this is what happened. Um, but it's
(23:19):
just very very thing, very very weird thing. I should say,
I meant I left out a word there um to
to see something like that happen, and uh, you know
it's strange. If you want to hear about some more
here do some more eccentric ones. These are not nearly
as grim so our buddy Tesla. Oh yes, Nikola, Tesla,
(23:40):
Internet darling Tesla. You guys love Tesla. I just have
to say, whenever we talk about Tesla, we get lots
of emails and messages. Yes, he's right behind Chris his
picture anyway, Um Tesla. Yeah, one of those guys that
everyone on the internet seems to adore. Um. Also kind
(24:00):
of an odd fellow. Had a lot of compulsions that
he would um, he would bow to all the time.
One of them was an obsession with the number three.
Apparently he made it a habit that before going into
a building, he would walk around the block three times
before entering. I've read reports that he would always have
(24:22):
stacks of three stacks of napkins, and the napkins had
to be in a number that's divisible by three, although
the number has changed depending upon which sours I was reading.
There was one that's at nine and one that's at eighteen. Uh.
But you know, he had anything that was that had
(24:45):
the number three, and that that was something that was
very important to him. He wanted to stay in hotel
rooms that are only the room number need to be
divisible by three. Uh. And he lived in a hotel.
He didn't, you know, have an apartment or a house
or yeah. He Uh. He also was a germophoe and um,
he hated the thought of anything dirty. He didn't you know,
he was extremely uh obsessed with cleantliness. Not necessarily a
(25:09):
bad thing until it goes a little too far. He
apparently hated jewelry and round the objects. Grant if you're
if you're creating a tesla coil, round up objects might
kill you. So maybe that's why. But um, but yeah,
there was just these weird little things and and of
course his eccentricities became more and more pronounced as he
(25:30):
got closer to his death. He kind of had a
pretty sharp decline, and part of that was probably brought
on by the stress and anxiety he felt by you know,
feeling like legitimately so, but feeling like he had been
um cheated out of his spot in the limelight for
quite some time when other other people were getting patents
(25:56):
on inventions that he felt he was the rightful inventor
of and therefore he should be the one holding the
patent um. Kind of a tragic life really when you
when you look at the whole story. Although he did
some amazing things I mean alternating current and Tesla Coil's
radio I mean again radio is one of those big
ones where he originally had the patent and then the
(26:16):
patent office famously reverse their decision on his patent and
gave it to Marconi, and that was there was a
big slap in the face. But he's not the only
famous tech guy who had some weird personality quirks. Samuel
Morse another one, Yes, Morris, this is an unpleasant one
(26:37):
to talk about. He's known for his involvement with the telegraph.
Ye patent did the telegraph. He also he also built
I didn't realize this in my research, I found out
he had built a marble cutting machine like to cut
slabs of marble into three dimensional sculptures. He was not
able to get a patent on it because there was
a patent for a previous device that did essentially the
(26:58):
same thing, but he did in at one UM. So
he was paranoid as well, you know, he was, you know,
like McAfee, very paranoidal. But his paranoia was was painted
against very broad groups um, notably the Catholics. He was Protestant,
and he believed that Catholics were going to wipe out Protestants. UM.
(27:21):
He also apparently thought that the nation of Austria was
dedicated to destroying Protestants. And he even ran for the
mayor of New York City under the Nativist Party. And
the Nativist Party was an anti immigration party. They didn't
want any immigrants coming into the United States. Um and
and his his prejudices went well beyond Catholics and and Austrians.
(27:46):
He also uh seemed to hold several, uh pretty strong
negative opinions about people who are Jewish as well as
he defended, um the institution of slavery. Now you gotta
remember the only Morse is active in the mid nineteenth century,
so this is even before the Civil War. But he
what he defended slavery, saying essentially that it was it
(28:09):
was part of the divine plan. And so you know,
he created something that ended up being instrumental in our
communications network and really laid the foundation for what would
become later on our our telephone network, and then even
beyond that, the Internet itself. You're talking about this is
(28:29):
like the beginning of all of that. Uh. And yet
also held these these beliefs, and uh seemed to have
some pretty crazy ideas. I mean, the idea that that
there was this this organized conspiracy to wipe out a
certain segment of the population was a little odd. Uh.
(28:51):
And then I've got one. This one's more fun or
weird and less again grim or gloomy. But h and
again this this was something I read on a blog
post that was about people who showed odd tendencies, you know,
people in technology so um. But it was about Yoshiro Nakamatsu,
(29:13):
who was the guy who held the most patents ever,
like three thousand. UM. He invented compact discs, digital or DVDs.
He also did uh, digital watches, UM, lots and lots
of stuff. Apparently, his little excentristy is that he writes
(29:33):
down everything he eats, he he makes a record of it,
and he has a specific goal, a very particular goal,
to live to be one hundred and forty four years old.
And uh, the the thing that makes up the majority
of his diet is what the blog called yummy New
(29:53):
Tree Brain food, which was a combination of seaweed, cheese, yogurt, eel, eggs, beef,
and chicken liver. And also he had a very interesting
way of inspiring himself to get new ideas ideas for inventions.
He would submerge himself in a tub of water and
then hold his breath until he could not possibly hold
(30:17):
his breath a moment longer, to the point where he
said that he was a half second away from drowning
and says it was the depletion of oxygen that is
integral for the act of inspiration. HM. So that's interesting.
I do not recommend that. In fact, I would like
to currently say, with all sincerity, don't do that. There
(30:43):
are better ways of coming up with good ideas well.
The longevity argument that he makes sort of reminds me
of Ray Kurtzweil, whom we've talked about before and who
believes that we are reaching the point at which the
singularity is very likely to occur, the point where you know,
basically people will be able to, you know what technological
(31:05):
help become immortal essentially, and um uh. You know he
has been on a very strict diet for quite some
time and taking certain vitamins and things any occidants that
that he hopes will preserve his physical body until the
point where it can be transferred I guess to a
(31:27):
uh cybernetic state. But you know, that's one of those
things where you think of Cursewile and all these things
that he's done in in terms of um uh, learning
technologies and music, and you know, you hear something else.
You go, wow, that's that's kind of unusual. But you
know again, that's that's more of a that's sort of
(31:49):
fun and not so not so deep. Jonathan's got an
unusual look on his face. And do you find something else?
I was just looking at some other things Nat has done.
Apparently he has a million dollar toilet room made completely
out of gold that helps him think better help, And
he has a vertical moving room in his house which
(32:12):
you must not call an elevator. Yeah. Yeah. Also a
lot of his inventions are kind of those wacky inventions,
like the patent stuff that he's got. Not all the
patents are necessarily things that you would think of as
being actually useful, so you know, it's kind of the
(32:35):
Mr Pope Heel of Japan apparently pocket Fisherman anyway. So clearly, uh,
genius can sometimes come with some some little weird quirks,
sometimes quirks that can lead to pretty tragic outcomes. Hopefully
(32:56):
we'll see more of the fun weird quirks than the
ones that are going to create a dark news items goodness,
I certainly don't want any more of those, but and
that kind of wraps up our discussion here. There are
plenty of other examples, and I'm sure they're They're probably
(33:16):
giants in the technology industry out there whom I have
personality issues or personality traits that we would find endlessly fascinating,
but we don't know about them because they've kept them
under wraps. That's my goal, keep all of my personality
quirks under reps. And good luck with that. Yeah, I
guess I shouldn't posted Twitter all the time. Um, but
(33:37):
that wraps up this discussion. And if you guys have
any suggestions for future episodes of tech Stuff. I highly
recommend you get in touch with us. Send us an
email or address as tech stuff at Discovery dot com,
or drop us a line on Facebook or Twitter are handled.
There is tech Stuff H. S. W and Chris and
I will talk to you again really soon. For more
(33:58):
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Brought to you by the two thousand twelve Toyota Camry.
Get in touch with technology with tech Stuff from how
Stuff What Stop Coming? Hello again everyone, and welcome to
tech Stuff. My name is Chris Poulette and I'm an
editor here at how Stuff work dot com, say named
(00:21):
crush from me and as always a senior writer Jonathan Strick.
Hey there. So, yeah, there's been some interesting news about
some tech personalities lately as of the time we're recording
this towards the end of November, and um, you know,
we've talked to a lot about people who have very
strong personalities, people like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs and um,
(00:45):
you know, very very powerful personalities there. Uh. They may
be friendly, they may be you know, have thorny anger,
management problems or whatever. But for the most part, you know,
you can see a pretty good picture of the person involved. Um,
and then there are other people who you go, wait what, Yeah,
(01:10):
We've had a pretty big one of those towards the
end of there's a spectrum of of normal, right right,
there's some people who are further out on the edges
of that spectrum. I would say people like Steve Jobs
and Bill Gates are a little further out on that
spectrum than others because they are very They were both
very driven. Of course Steve Jobs unfortunately passed away, but
(01:31):
both very driven individuals who were passionate about their interests
and UM, and both reportedly had times when they were
not the most pleasant of people to be around. So
so yeah, you've got that whole spectrum thing. Well that
we wanted to talk today about some people who kind
of fall outside that spectrum to the point where you'd say,
(01:52):
all right, either this person has something seriously wrong going
on with them, or perhaps the things that are being
reported about this person are putting them in a really
bad light. But in any way, they are clearly they're
they're in a situation that is not normal, and they
themselves may not be what we would call normal. UM.
(02:13):
And the first one we wanted to talk about was
the one who was in the news recently is John McAfee.
And McAfee is a guy who's he's been known as
being an eccentric for uh for more than a decade UM.
But McAfee he was born in England and raised in Virginia.
He went to Roanoke College and got a degree in mathematics.
(02:35):
From that college, UH, he spent time as a programmer
for NASA's Institute for Space Studies. He worked for a
couple of big companies. He worked for Univac, he worked
for Xerox. UH nineteen seventy eight, he joined the Computer
Sciences Corporation, and then he started working for Lockheed. And
while he was working for Lockheed, that's when he started
(02:56):
to develop the software that he has really become known for.
In fact, it shares his name, the McAfee anti virus software.
While at LOCKEED he was he became very interested in
this idea of detecting and removing computer viruses because they
were just really starting to blossom at that time. We're
(03:17):
talking about UM the late eighties, and you know, this
is before we really get into the eras of web.
The Web doesn't really exist yet, actually doesn't exist yet
in the in the eighties UM, and very few companies
have access to some of the other Internet UM functionalities
(03:40):
like file transfer protocols or email, although they do exist
at this time. But he was he could see that
there was this rise in computer viruses and that because
computers followed directions, there are ways of creating directions that
make your computer do things that you don't necessarily want
it to do, whether that's completely filling up a hard
(04:02):
drive with meaningless information and breaking it, or installing some
sort of of of uh trojan program that protects a
nasty piece of malware from being detected. He was very
much dedicated to creating software that would that would find
(04:23):
that and remove it. Now, UM, it's interesting to note
a little bit about his his background and UM I
read not too long ago a piece from released by
Wired called John McAfee's Last Stand by Joshua Davis. They
also have a an e book available on Amazon that
(04:46):
you can purchase. I think it's nine cents and I
think it's a I want to say it's thirteen chapter
something like that. Yeah, yeah, it's it's not a long
long book, but it's you know, more than an article. Yeah,
because apparently this from Wired was there for like six months. Yea. Um,
but yeah, he he had been um, you know, as
(05:07):
he was working for uh, you know, companies like omex
Um in the early nineteen eighties. I mean he was
a pretty heavy drug user. Apparently I used cocaine, coeludes. Um,
you know, he he had been a pretty heavy drinker
before that, even in his college days. It looks like
um and apparently got to a point where he decided,
(05:29):
you know, that was it, he wasn't going to do
this anymore. And he really straightened up, um cleaned up.
And this was you know, this was before he really
got the idea to go in and do this himself,
to launch his own company. Um so. And you know,
it's not that I necessarily want to uh smear mud
on John McAfee so much as I think it provides
some context for for the kinds of things that happened
(05:52):
later on in his life. Sure, and uh he made
some interesting decisions with that software that he created. One
of those was that he decided upon the shareware distribution model,
which ended up being a very effective way for him
to get that software out there on the market. Um So.
In eighties seven he formed McAfee Associates, which was essentially
(06:15):
in charge of creating this MacAfee antivirus software. But it
wasn't that much longer. I mean, it was just in
ninety four when he resigned from the company, and a
couple of years later he sold his his stake uh
in the company entirely and just completely got away from it. Um.
At one point I hear that he was valued at
(06:37):
around a hundred million dollars. He himself stated that due
to the economic depression and downturn and and all these
other issues, that he was reduced too closer to four
million dollars uh after that was all over, although more
recently in two thousand twelve, he said that that was
(06:59):
probably not entirely accurate. He may he may in fact
have had a bit more than four million dollars UM.
And this is where we start getting into some pretty
strange stuff. Um. He one thing was that he was
really interested in this this concept of quorum sensing, now
(07:19):
uh quick. Quarum sensing, especially when it refers to bacteria,
is a way of the bacteria have of reacting in
a certain manner, and that manner is completely dependent upon
how much bacteria is present at that time. So in
other words, if you were to provide a stimulus to
these bacteria, they would provide a response that would be
(07:43):
based mostly upon how many other uh instances of that
bacteria are present. So if there is x number or greater,
it will respond one way, but if it's fewer than that,
it will respond a different way, and uh my Coufee
said that he was doing this in order to try
and develop new anti beyodics, antibacterial treatments, things that could
(08:07):
help humans, uh in a medicinal way. And he relocated
to two Belize, just in Central America. Uh the only
country in Central America, by the way, for which English
is the official language, although from what I understand it
is not the most prevalent language spoken there. It is however,
the official one. Anyway, he moved to Belize, um created
(08:31):
this lab in his home, you know, apparently a pretty
large compound there, but he has a lab at that compound.
That was from what he was saying, all about studying
this stuff to try and create better medicines, mostly medicines
that he was looking at. He was looking at a
(08:51):
lot of natural elements, things that were um found out
in rainforests, things like that as the key to these
sort of medicines. That's what he was claiming. Yeah, it
would seem that his his entrepreneurial spirit hasn't completely left
because he's done this. He's also even apparently tried to
(09:13):
come up with a a sport. Yes, when he was
living out in the Southwest and this is before he
moved to Belieze. Um. Apparently, Um, I was listening to
a radio report from someone who had been uh you know,
who had met McAfee more than once, and he said, yeah,
I want you to come out here and check out
this new sport, apparently, narrow trekking. You're supposed to fly,
(09:36):
I don't know, very very close to the ground. Um.
You fly very low to the ground using uh, some
form of aircraft. It might even be a hang glider
with a motor attached to it. But the idea is
that you are flying close to the ground so that
you get that real sense of speed and danger from
being you know, just a very short distance away from
(09:59):
crashing to a potential terrible injury or death. And in fact,
McAfee was involved in a wrongful death lawsuit that was
the result of a person dying from an arrow trekking accident. Um,
So I mean this was you know, he's known as
a daredevil as well as many other things, which will
(10:21):
I guess we can kind of segue into. Now this
is gonna get really weird, folks, because here here's the
thing is that there are a lot of different reports.
There's what McAfee has said through or we presume it's McAfee,
through various blogs and Twitter account Twitter messages, things like that,
there are things that he has said, there are things
that people who know him have have said. There's things
(10:43):
that journalists who have investigated this have said, and honestly
we don't have the whole story. But no matter who's
telling the story, it's weird. UM has known that the
Polize police have visited him on more than on occasion. Yes,
they're their gangs unit actually rated his house in April
(11:06):
two twelve, the Gang Suppression Unit in Orange Walk Down Belize.
They rated his home under suspicion that his laboratory was
actually producing crystal meth. That that was in fact what
he was interested in making and not UM medicine. And
in fact there are there are journalists, they're bloggers who
have said that UM that that McAfee was very active
(11:31):
in online discussion forums that were dedicated to drug manufacturer
like as an illicit drugs or or recreational drugs. UM.
Although there is a woman who UM he talked into
a job offer to come down and work on UH
medicinal drugs as well. So that again this is their
(11:51):
conflicting report, right, So, so they could be that these
reports that he was the one who was on these
recreational drug sites, maybe that wasn't him because there they
were using uh uh pseudonyms, I mean handles, they weren't
It wasn't just him there. But Gismoto published a report
that very much seemed to indicate that he was one
(12:12):
of the people on this recreational drug forum talking about
trying to perfect a typical kind of drug that would,
um well, supposed to enhance his his sexual experiences as
well as give a sense of euphoria and supposedly would
create a very gradual and mellow come down afterward. So uh,
(12:39):
and he the guy who was posting under this name,
posted a lot about this particular kind of drug. Um
Whether or not that was John McAfee, however, is still
a question. Now. One of the things that people have
said is that the drugs that he was talking about
often can create a sense of paranoia in someone who's
using those drugs. Now, again, whether or not McFee was
(13:03):
using those drugs is a is a question that's left open. However,
I think it's safe to say that paranoia is something
he has felt yes, he has. He has demonstrated, UH,
paranoid tendencies. Now again there's always that joke just because
your paranoia doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
But we can't really say that, but we can definitely
(13:23):
say that he has shown some some paranoid tendencies. One
of those is trying to evade the police. Now, as
of the recording of this podcast, which is at the
end of November twelve, he's still on the run from
police and Belize, And the reason why the police are
interested in him is that someone who lived near him,
Gregory Veant Fall, was found shot dead a few several
(13:49):
meters away from UH from McAfee's property and UM. Fall
and McAfee had a history of um H arguments, some
some UH some disagreements, one of which was that Fall
said that McAfee mcfee's dogs, when I think McFee owned
(14:11):
like eleven dogs, but that his dogs were barking all
the time and that was driving Fall crazy. And UH.
One of the other issues that happened recently was that
several of McAfee's dogs, I think four of them died
of poisoning. So the implication here and again this is
all unfolding, so we don't have the full information, but
(14:31):
the implication is that perhaps Fall or someone that Fall knows,
poisoned the dogs, and that perhaps there was an act
of retribution against Fall. So when the news first broke,
it sounded like McAfee was not just a person of
interest but a suspect. Since then the police police have said, no,
he's not a suspect. We just want to talk to
him because we want to find out who killed Fall.
(14:55):
It's possible that perhaps someone around McAfee killed Fall or McAfee,
not necessarily on McAfee's command, because, as it turns out,
McAfee has seemingly started to hang out with some pretty
rough customers in Belize. Yep, the photography that that accompanies
the Wired book includes some people with some very large guns. Yeah,
(15:19):
the stories are essentially I'm sorry, I mean, there's a
guns are pretty heavily restricted in Beliefe. So the story
essentially is that it sounds like McAfee has um formed
relationships with several of the the drug gangs in Belize.
Now it may be that he was doing this in
(15:39):
an attempt to get hold of materials for his legitimate
medical you know, research that could be the case, it
would not be necessarily the wisest move a person has
ever made to get involved with drug boards, but that's
a possibility. Now a lot of other people are saying, no,
what's happening is McAfee got involved in so he could
(16:01):
get the ingredients need to make the recreational drugs that
he was interested in, which again we don't know um so. Anyway,
it's possible that maybe one of these you know, gang
members that he hangs out with committed the murder and
it wasn't McAfee at all. So we don't know if
McAfee shot Fall, or if someone McAfee knows shot him,
(16:23):
or if it was just some random crime that seems
that seems the most unrealistic of the various possibilities, but
we don't know, um so. McAfee has been on the
run and has been posting, or at least there have
been blog posts attributed to McAfee that have posted in
his absence that have made things sound even more strange,
(16:47):
for instance, that McAfee has been using elaborate disguises to
to hide in plain sight. Yes, he appeared as a
German um tourist basically using profanity and just shouting at
people randomly, or tried to uh disguise himself and hunch
over so that he didn't appear as tall as he
(17:07):
normally is, and uh spoken heavily accented English, trying to
sell trinkets to uh he said even or this person
said he even attempted to sell something to an Associated
Press reporter who didn't recognize him, a wooden dolphins. Yes, uh,
that the reporter suddenly had an urgent call to attend to. Yeah,
(17:27):
it's in the blog post McAfee, assuming it is. McAfee
claimed that he nearly sold one of these trinkets before
the AP reporter was called away. Now the police police
have been asking him to turn himself in so that
he can talk about whatever it is that happened to
fall like who who could have possibly killed him, and
to clear his name. McAfee, in turn, has said that,
(17:51):
or at least according to these reports and according to
people who know him who say they've talked to him,
says that he doesn't want to go into police custody
because he firmly believes that the police will kill him
once he's in their custody. Yeah he um he even
reacted to the that's the way he's on the run now.
Actually was because when the when the police showed up,
(18:11):
he thought they were coming to hassle him again. So
he here, that's what he says. Anyway, so he escaped
before they could catch him. He Um. So anyway, he's
saying that the police are definitely going to kill him
if they take him into custody. Uh. He's also at
one point apparently suggested that, uh that fall falls death
was really meant, was that there was a hit gone
(18:34):
wrong that was meant to hit McAfee and instead hit Fallum.
That was one of the other possibilities I heard of
the couple of weeks before we record this podcast. Um.
So it's these are these are definitely tendencies that we
would classify as paranohite. Um. And honestly, again we don't
know all the information. It maybe that perhaps McAfee is
(18:55):
a very eccentric but otherwise mostly innocent. First and now
it's true that his personal life also has some other complications.
Apparently he has several people living at that compound with him,
including several young women with whom he often has sexual relations,
and including one who is identified over and over as
(19:17):
a seventeen year old girlfriend. But then there are other women, uh,
and and at that compound as well, and so I
mean they're they're definitely. So it's kind of this weird,
larger than life, odd David Lynch sort of story thing.
Like if I saw this enough film, I would think
the Cohen Brothers made it. Yeah, it's just it's just
(19:38):
so weird when you think of somebody who has gone
down in history as coming up with a very successful
tech product. Um. You know, you you don't typically think
of that. You think of somebody like Jobs or Gates
or um, maybe Larry Ellison. Uh, you know some some
people who they've got lots of money, they live a
(20:00):
jet setter's lifestyle. Maybe maybe not um, but you don't
really typically think of you know, when you hear something like, well,
John McAfee is a person of interest in this murder case,
and really that's just strange. But but you know the
reason why we wanted to do this podcast was not
just to talk about about McAfee, although that was you know,
(20:20):
the main, the main focus, but also to talk about
some other people in technology who have displayed odd traits. Well, yeah,
that was that was the second thing that came to
my mind was you know, well he's not alone. I
mean I was thinking specifically when I talked to Jonathan
about this about a man named Hans Reiser, who also
whom I read about and wired, uh several years ago, um,
(20:43):
when he was at that point accused of murdering his wife. Um.
And uh, it was just strange to me because he was,
Um he's known for UM, he's not as famous as
as uh John McAfee would be, but he is known
for his riser f s. It's a file system for
(21:05):
for computers to store files and apparently is extremely efficient, Um,
very popular among among a certain crowd, very very popular
in various Linux distributions. Yes, yes, Um. And then you know,
and here again I'm going wait this, this person who's
you know, famous within a certain tech community is um,
(21:27):
you know it's it's wanted for murder. This is so strange. Yeah.
He married a woman named Nina Sharonova. Uh and they
met in Russia, I believe so that and that has
raised questions as to you know, was that an arranged
marriage kind of thing? But whether that is or not,
she turned up missing and uh, eventually I know it's
(21:50):
an odd, odd phrase, right. Uh, But she turned up
missing and then her body was found, and eventually Hans
rise Or was taken into custody, and uh, he was tried,
he was convicted. He ended up um getting a Originally
he was tried under first degree murder, but it was
(22:12):
reduced to second degree murder in a plea deal. But yeah,
that's that goes beyond being odd, I would say. Uh.
But yeah, certainly an example of someone who created something
very influential in technology who ended up having some very
severe problems. Well, he had, um, he had claimed that
(22:35):
she had left the country and gone back to Russia,
and um, you know I had there was nothing, nothing
there untowards of course, UM, the police had, well they
didn't have the body. They didn't know, you know, for sure,
whether she was missing or or dead. And um they
found his car with um, some bloodstains of hers in it,
(22:56):
um and an inch of water on the floorboard apparently.
And he was trying to explain how he you know,
tried to clean out his car with water and how
he was surprised to find out that card manufacturers don't
put a hole in the floor so that water will
drain out and all sorts of things apparently that made
the jury shake their heads. And then finally he just said,
you know, look, this is what happened. Um, but it's
(23:19):
just very very thing, very very weird thing. I should say,
I meant I left out a word there um to
to see something like that happen, and uh, you know
it's strange. If you want to hear about some more
here do some more eccentric ones. These are not nearly
as grim so our buddy Tesla. Oh yes, Nikola, Tesla,
(23:40):
Internet darling Tesla. You guys love Tesla. I just have
to say, whenever we talk about Tesla, we get lots
of emails and messages. Yes, he's right behind Chris his
picture anyway, Um Tesla. Yeah, one of those guys that
everyone on the internet seems to adore. Um. Also kind
(24:00):
of an odd fellow. Had a lot of compulsions that
he would um, he would bow to all the time.
One of them was an obsession with the number three.
Apparently he made it a habit that before going into
a building, he would walk around the block three times
before entering. I've read reports that he would always have
(24:22):
stacks of three stacks of napkins, and the napkins had
to be in a number that's divisible by three, although
the number has changed depending upon which sours I was reading.
There was one that's at nine and one that's at eighteen. Uh.
But you know, he had anything that was that had
(24:45):
the number three, and that that was something that was
very important to him. He wanted to stay in hotel
rooms that are only the room number need to be
divisible by three. Uh. And he lived in a hotel.
He didn't, you know, have an apartment or a house
or yeah. He Uh. He also was a germophoe and um,
he hated the thought of anything dirty. He didn't you know,
he was extremely uh obsessed with cleantliness. Not necessarily a
(25:09):
bad thing until it goes a little too far. He
apparently hated jewelry and round the objects. Grant if you're
if you're creating a tesla coil, round up objects might
kill you. So maybe that's why. But um, but yeah,
there was just these weird little things and and of
course his eccentricities became more and more pronounced as he
(25:30):
got closer to his death. He kind of had a
pretty sharp decline, and part of that was probably brought
on by the stress and anxiety he felt by you know,
feeling like legitimately so, but feeling like he had been
um cheated out of his spot in the limelight for
quite some time when other other people were getting patents
(25:56):
on inventions that he felt he was the rightful inventor
of and therefore he should be the one holding the
patent um. Kind of a tragic life really when you
when you look at the whole story. Although he did
some amazing things I mean alternating current and Tesla Coil's
radio I mean again radio is one of those big
ones where he originally had the patent and then the
(26:16):
patent office famously reverse their decision on his patent and
gave it to Marconi, and that was there was a
big slap in the face. But he's not the only
famous tech guy who had some weird personality quirks. Samuel
Morse another one, Yes, Morris, this is an unpleasant one
(26:37):
to talk about. He's known for his involvement with the telegraph.
Ye patent did the telegraph. He also he also built
I didn't realize this in my research, I found out
he had built a marble cutting machine like to cut
slabs of marble into three dimensional sculptures. He was not
able to get a patent on it because there was
a patent for a previous device that did essentially the
(26:58):
same thing, but he did in at one UM. So
he was paranoid as well, you know, he was, you know,
like McAfee, very paranoidal. But his paranoia was was painted
against very broad groups um, notably the Catholics. He was Protestant,
and he believed that Catholics were going to wipe out Protestants. UM.
(27:21):
He also apparently thought that the nation of Austria was
dedicated to destroying Protestants. And he even ran for the
mayor of New York City under the Nativist Party. And
the Nativist Party was an anti immigration party. They didn't
want any immigrants coming into the United States. Um and
and his his prejudices went well beyond Catholics and and Austrians.
(27:46):
He also uh seemed to hold several, uh pretty strong
negative opinions about people who are Jewish as well as
he defended, um the institution of slavery. Now you gotta
remember the only Morse is active in the mid nineteenth century,
so this is even before the Civil War. But he
what he defended slavery, saying essentially that it was it
(28:09):
was part of the divine plan. And so you know,
he created something that ended up being instrumental in our
communications network and really laid the foundation for what would
become later on our our telephone network, and then even
beyond that, the Internet itself. You're talking about this is
(28:29):
like the beginning of all of that. Uh. And yet
also held these these beliefs, and uh seemed to have
some pretty crazy ideas. I mean, the idea that that
there was this this organized conspiracy to wipe out a
certain segment of the population was a little odd. Uh.
(28:51):
And then I've got one. This one's more fun or
weird and less again grim or gloomy. But h and
again this this was something I read on a blog
post that was about people who showed odd tendencies, you know,
people in technology so um. But it was about Yoshiro Nakamatsu,
(29:13):
who was the guy who held the most patents ever,
like three thousand. UM. He invented compact discs, digital or DVDs.
He also did uh, digital watches, UM, lots and lots
of stuff. Apparently, his little excentristy is that he writes
(29:33):
down everything he eats, he he makes a record of it,
and he has a specific goal, a very particular goal,
to live to be one hundred and forty four years old.
And uh, the the thing that makes up the majority
of his diet is what the blog called yummy New
(29:53):
Tree Brain food, which was a combination of seaweed, cheese, yogurt, eel, eggs, beef,
and chicken liver. And also he had a very interesting
way of inspiring himself to get new ideas ideas for inventions.
He would submerge himself in a tub of water and
then hold his breath until he could not possibly hold
(30:17):
his breath a moment longer, to the point where he
said that he was a half second away from drowning
and says it was the depletion of oxygen that is
integral for the act of inspiration. HM. So that's interesting.
I do not recommend that. In fact, I would like
to currently say, with all sincerity, don't do that. There
(30:43):
are better ways of coming up with good ideas well.
The longevity argument that he makes sort of reminds me
of Ray Kurtzweil, whom we've talked about before and who
believes that we are reaching the point at which the
singularity is very likely to occur, the point where you know,
basically people will be able to, you know what technological
(31:05):
help become immortal essentially, and um uh. You know he
has been on a very strict diet for quite some
time and taking certain vitamins and things any occidants that
that he hopes will preserve his physical body until the
point where it can be transferred I guess to a
(31:27):
uh cybernetic state. But you know, that's one of those
things where you think of Cursewile and all these things
that he's done in in terms of um uh, learning
technologies and music, and you know, you hear something else.
You go, wow, that's that's kind of unusual. But you
know again, that's that's more of a that's sort of
(31:49):
fun and not so not so deep. Jonathan's got an
unusual look on his face. And do you find something else?
I was just looking at some other things Nat has done.
Apparently he has a million dollar toilet room made completely
out of gold that helps him think better help, And
he has a vertical moving room in his house which
(32:12):
you must not call an elevator. Yeah. Yeah. Also a
lot of his inventions are kind of those wacky inventions,
like the patent stuff that he's got. Not all the
patents are necessarily things that you would think of as
being actually useful, so you know, it's kind of the
(32:35):
Mr Pope Heel of Japan apparently pocket Fisherman anyway. So clearly, uh,
genius can sometimes come with some some little weird quirks,
sometimes quirks that can lead to pretty tragic outcomes. Hopefully
(32:56):
we'll see more of the fun weird quirks than the
ones that are going to create a dark news items goodness,
I certainly don't want any more of those, but and
that kind of wraps up our discussion here. There are
plenty of other examples, and I'm sure they're They're probably
(33:16):
giants in the technology industry out there whom I have
personality issues or personality traits that we would find endlessly fascinating,
but we don't know about them because they've kept them
under wraps. That's my goal, keep all of my personality
quirks under reps. And good luck with that. Yeah, I
guess I shouldn't posted Twitter all the time. Um, but
(33:37):
that wraps up this discussion. And if you guys have
any suggestions for future episodes of tech Stuff. I highly
recommend you get in touch with us. Send us an
email or address as tech stuff at Discovery dot com,
or drop us a line on Facebook or Twitter are handled.
There is tech Stuff H. S. W and Chris and
I will talk to you again really soon. For more
(33:58):
on this and bausands of other topics, visit hastaff Works
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