January 16, 2012 • 42 mins
What are the benefits of each type of system? What are the drawbacks? Who won the debate? Tune in as Jonathan and Chris explores the respective pros and cons on each side of the great debate between open and closed systems.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(01:03):
com slash tech stuff. Hello, They're welcome to tech Stuff.
My name is Chris Poulette and I am an editor
at How Stuff Works, sitting across from me, debatedbly Is,
as always a senior writer Jonathan st I had the
story bit by bit from various people, and as generally
happens in such cases, each time it was a different story.
(01:27):
So today we're going to have a goofy little debate
about open systems versus closed systems. We just decided that
we're going to experiment with this. We've never done one
of these before, and in fact, we decided on it
about thirty seconds before we started recording, and so to
determine who would represent which side, we did the most
scientific thing we could think of. We flipped a coin.
(01:49):
It's the quarter United States quarter for those of you
who think that matters. Uh. And it turns out that
mint did it come from? Um you know what? I
put it back in my pocket, So I don't know.
But but Mr Chris rigged. Mr Chris Philette will be
representing the open system side and I shall be representing
the closed system side. So I think that proves it
wasn't rigged. Look at the kind of phone I'm using.
(02:13):
So anyway, Uh, I think I think in order to
really understand what we're talking about. First, we have to
establish what we mean by an open versus a closed system.
So let me tell you what a closed system is.
Closed system is quality people. That's what a closed system is.
Closed system is where you create a an infrastructure, uh
(02:34):
an ecosystem, if you will, where you control as many
of the factors as you possibly can, and you don't
allow outside influences to change your system. So an example
of a company that takes the closed system approach is Apple.
That's not to say that Apple only does the closed
(02:54):
off approach. If it did, then you would never be
able to run any other kind of software or app
on Apple products. You would only be able to run
Apple created stuff. But it's an example of a system
because it's more closed than it is open. And there
are various reasons for doing this, but we'll get into
that in the debate. But that that's kind of what
how I define a closed system. It's one where you're
(03:16):
trying to control as much as possible, and it's all
coming from or as much of it as possible is
coming from a single source, and the outside stuff is
shut away. Yes, And and I think as we talk
about this, our listeners will realize that there are few
absolutes in this discussion. Very true. Okay, so open source
(03:37):
information wants to be free, and the ore are computing
devices should too. It's the only way to be, uh,
you know, free to be you and me? Um okay
yea hippy. No, an open system is is something that
is not made for corporate gain. It is out there
(03:59):
for the public to use. Anybody who wants to make
a contribution to it. Can people can use it, uh
if they want to. And there it's it's there as
offered as a public service. Um. And is therefore the
people of the people, by the people, and you closed
system punks should leave us alone because this is the
(04:20):
way it really should be and trying to make a
buck off that is wrong. Yeah. So if you think
of it, uh, an open system is sort of democratic
and that anyone can really contribute to it and and
change it. And also we should point out before we
really get into this debate, uh, that it is possible
to have a a product probably that's for sale, either
that's an open system or a closed system. Open and
(04:42):
closed does not mean that one is free and one
is is you charge for Yeah, I was I I did. Yeah,
that's a good point. I should have pointed out that
sort of the quote unquote ideal version when when a
lot of people talk about open source, right, if you're
going the ultimate open source, like the utopian version of
open source, when you're talking about that's cool, that's cool, Yeah,
(05:03):
because there there really is a spectrum here. But we're
gonna try and be like hardcore. So mal, let me
explain why I think that closed systems are superior to
open systems. So with a closed system and with with
with with everything coming from a single source. So in
this case, let's say it's a company. A company is
creating a product that is closed off, no other outside
(05:26):
influence can can come into this product. It means that
there's an expectation of quality control that you don't have
with open systems. You actually can test everything, make sure
everything works properly on the hardware. So if we're talking
about a computer, we know that the software will work
on the computer because the software and hardware have been
developed together from the ground up. It means that you
(05:49):
don't have to worry about some weird incompatibility issue when
you try and install a program onto this device, because
again everything is coming from the same source and was
made to work together. Now this can go beyond just
a computer. Let's say that you have a computer and
a smartphone and a tablet and they're all part of
the same closed system. It means that you can expect
(06:12):
a fairly uniform experience across these three platforms, and maybe
even be able to port your experience from one to
the other. And what I mean by that is, let's
say I'm watching a movie on my smartphone and then
I decide, you know what, I really want to look
at this on a bigger screen, and I tap it
over to my tablet, and the tablet starts playing the
movie exactly where I left off, and it all works
(06:33):
seamlessly because it's all running on the same platform that's
meant to work together. That is one of the big
benefits of a closed system is that you have a
uniformity in the experience and an expectation of things are
just gonna work because it was all built together and
meant to work together. Why are you taking away my choice?
(06:58):
If I want to have a different video card than
the one you stuck in my computer, I want to
be able to remove it and stick a different one
in there, you know what. And it's and it's frustrating
because any time I want to change a component on
my computer or I want something a little different, UH,
you know, I have to deal with all the complications
(07:19):
that you're closed off. UH system is is taking away
And the problem is that, UH, you're also restricting competition
because in your closed system, there's only one way to
go for a tablet, and there's one way to go
for an MP three player, and there's one way to
go for a smartphone. There's one way to go for
a computer. And I want I want choice. I want
(07:41):
to be able to customize my my computing experience. I
want to be able to buy something cheaper because competition
is driving down the cost of these products. So I
could go to your store and buy the one computer
you've got, or I could go to this store over
here and buy fifty different computers, and all of them
are cheaper than yours, and some of them even outperform yours. Well,
(08:02):
So what do you say to that? Here's what I
say to that. Sure, it might be cheaper, and even
if you have a device, a particular individual device that
performs better than one of my particular individual devices. If
you are trying to have an experience that spans multiple devices,
then you're going to start encountering things where the compatibility
issues come into play, and you may have things like
(08:23):
software crashes because it's not designed to work together seamlessly
like a closed system is. So you might spend less
money initially when you first purchase your vast array of
choice here and you've got let you know, your ultimate
price tag is lower than you would if you have
bought everything from my superior closed system store. But the
(08:45):
amount of frustration you're going to have as that experience
is unsatisfactory because the various pieces are not playing together
properly is far going to outweigh the miniscule additional investment
you would have to make if you had purchased it
all from me in the first place. And yeah, you're
one individual device might behave better or perform better than
(09:05):
why one individual device, but collectively, the experience is much
more satisfying on my end than it is on yours,
because it's yours is piecemeal, and also my system is
designed to just work. Your system is designed to make
me have to have a computer science degree if I
want to figure out how to do the same thing
on one device as I'm doing on another device. Ha superior,
(09:31):
You say, yes, I don't think that word means what
you think. Well, here, let me put it to you
another way. Let's let's let's take a look at the
way a closed system versus an open system attacks the
problem of malware, because they have very different approaches. Right, So,
if we're talking about the perfect closed system, ideally there's
(09:52):
no malware because nothing from outside is being introduced into
the system unless there's some you know, disgruntled employee that
I bullied out of out of their sanity. We don't
have to worry about malware entering into the closed system
because everything is made by this one entity and it's
all made to work together, so you don't have to
worry about some sort of virus perpetuating itself through your system.
(10:15):
Now that's different from the way open systems attack malware. Well,
see the open systems, you could have other people, multiple
people working on solutions to things like vulnerabilities in the
operating system, and people who are working on uh anti
malware software for your system. So the thing is, that's
(10:38):
a small price to pay for the ability to hack
into the system and change whatever you want to change
about the system. If you want to, uh, get into
the operating system and see what makes it tick and
learn more about what what programs and what functions are
going on in the background. For example, you could be
(10:59):
monitoring everything I do, but if you're in your closed system,
I can't get into the background to see that. Then
you know you could be doing this all without my knowledge.
Um So with an open system, I I'm free to
install any software I want to or remove any software
I want to from my device. And I could even
write my own because you know it's open, and uh,
(11:20):
it gives me the opportunity to to hack in and
play with it and make it my own instead of
make it what your vision is. Because what if your
closed vision, you're closed off, walled off, little garden isn't
what I think of as being the best experience for me,
because hey, everybody's an individual, right Well. First of all,
we know what you want, even when you don't see
(11:41):
That's the thing is, we know what you want. You
don't know what you want, but we know what you want.
You think you know what you want, but until you've
actually bought into our our closed system, you really haven't
haven't experienced it, And we're going to go back into
the quality issue. Let's talk about the quality of and
we're talking about computing systems here. Let's talk about the
(12:02):
quality of the programs that you're running on your system. Again,
with the closed system approach, those programs have been built
for a very specific set of hardware, which does not
change from what you know that if I buy my
computer from this closed system and someone else buys their
computer from the same closed system, those two computers are
going to be identical in every meaningful way, So we
(12:25):
know that the software is going to work equally well
on my system as it is on their system. Whereas
if we both just go into a computer store and
we each just buy a computer from various you know, manufacturers,
there's no guarantee that the same kind of software is
going to work just as well in my machine as
it is on their machine, even if the two machines
are running the same operating system, because we have difficulties
(12:46):
introduced by things like device drivers and hardware differences. With
the closed system, you've eliminated that you don't have to
worry about that so much. So that means that the
quality of the experience of the software. Put aside the
quality of the software itself, but the experience of using
it is going to be less frustrating. Uh the you know,
(13:08):
you might say that there's a downside with the whole
choice factor, but at the same time, you don't have
to worry about it crashing all the time or just
not behaving the proper way. I think. Sure, sometimes things happen,
but on a much less frequent basis than on these
these little open systems out there that that just well,
I don't know, they they they just they just are
(13:30):
like every anything goes well with the potential of with
with open source software, you have to potential a limitless
potential of applications that could be run for it. The
more open you become, the greater the possibilities. Um. You know.
So you can have your closed system and have things
(13:51):
that run specifically on that hardware. But you know, programmers
like their choices too, and they're gonna go where where
the wealth of soft where it is, and that's when
you attract more users, and vice versa and versa visa.
And I disagree with that because users, most users don't
want to be curators. And if you are a user
(14:12):
of an open system, you have to be a curator
because there's so much that you're talking about, so much
variety and so much choice, that it's overwhelming to the
average user. You sit down and you see like there's
it's like walking into a library and you have no
idea what book you want to read. You just know
you want to read a book, and you walk into
an enormous library and you have no idea where to go.
(14:34):
It's too confusing. Whereas in a closed system, it's been
curated for you. Your choices are limited, but at the
same time, you don't have to worry about going through
eight thousand different word processing programs in order to find
one that suits your needs. There's really only one choice,
and if it suits your needs, that's awesome. Jonathan, you ignorance.
(14:56):
Ha ha oh Saturday night Life. I bet you they
cut that. Um anyhow, uh well, see, there's one thing
that that you're leaving out here, the market, because what
happens here is the market helps people whittle down their choices.
When you have something the the word processor of choice,
(15:16):
the one that that more people are using than people understand,
it's the best seller phenomenon it's like you look at
the best seller lists and you and you say, you
know what, these books are very popular. I bet you
anything that if I if I read it, I'm you know,
I will at least look at these first because I
know lots of people like them, and that helps people
(15:36):
make choices as far as software is concerned, and you know,
there's always a new programmer coming online to develop new
software and you can always help be the kingmaker for
the next generation of software too. But not in the
closed system where you know your choices are somewhat limited.
I don't know. I'm trying to think of a best
selling open source software example, and it's really hard. Well,
(16:00):
you know, in a lot of cases, open source software
can be free or donationware, and a donationware world, people
pay what they what it's worth to them. And sure
some people are going to pay a quarter, and there
are also people who pay a hundred dollars for the
same piece of software because it means more to them
and it's important to them to donate to the community.
(16:22):
I mean, you know, not found that out? How did
how did Minecraft? Just you know, it's it's a thing. Yeah,
but I still think that the closed system is the
way to go. It's a sustainable business model. It means
that you once you develop your your your line of devotees,
you're good to go. I mean because you you've created
(16:43):
that expectation of that quality of experience that you deliver
upon consistently, and by doing that, you know that you know,
as long as you maintain that level of quality, that
you will have a customer base moving forward. Whereas with
this open source roach, I don't see how you're gonna be,
you know, really making a sustainable business out of that.
(17:05):
And while the ideals are wonderful and fantastic and and
and and and happy and all that mess um, I
just don't see it, you know, perpetuating itself after a
certain amount. You know, eventually a guy's got to eat well.
And and that's why I think, uh, that's why I
think openness is sort of a bell curve. Yeah, because
(17:28):
the one end you have the clothe the the completely
closed off system with fewer fewer users, which you know,
we should point out again there's not really that many.
I can't think of any company that would be that
I could point to that say absolutely is this like
even the systems that we think of as closed like
Apple and Nintendo aren't really that closed. Otherwise no third
(17:50):
party developer would ever be able to create anything for
their platforms. Right. And then at the other side, UM,
I'm trying to think of somebody who is really completely
open as far as open source. But that's as close
as you can get. Yeah. And the thing is, as
Jonathan pointed out earlier, UM, Lennox is free and it's
(18:12):
you know, the sources open, which is in the guts
of the operating system are open for people to use.
And there are distributions of Linux that are completely free
for people to use, and there are others that. Uh.
There is a purchase price because it is tailored two
specific needs and usually has some support level of support
built into that. So if you buy the software, then
you can expect to have someone to call if you've
(18:33):
got a problem. Yeah. Sometimes it's not the software itself
that's that's got the price tag. It's the support. Yeah.
So for example, Buntu is that way you can you
can get a free version of a Buntu and install
it on your computer. By the way, the debate part
of this podcast is over In case you hadn't realized
that We're now getting into the more informational side. Um. Yeah,
the the and I think that went really well. The
(18:54):
but Abuntu, you you can get that for free and
install that on a machine for free. But if you
want to have professional level support, then you can pay
a certain amount of money and then you will have
access to UM support staff, which could be anything from
my computer isn't behaving properly, what is the what is
the source of this problem? How do I fix it too?
(19:17):
I'm running an actual closed network of machines in this
one business, and I need to know how to set
this up so that everything is secure that kind of
it's it's all levels of support. Uh. And and you know,
there are definitely arguments both for and against the closed
and open systems, as we were demonstrating earlier. And it's
not that one system is inherently better or worse than
(19:40):
the other. They're just different philosophies on how to provide
UM goods and services. Yeah. Really there the arguments we
were making. I think, um, you know, there were good
arguments on both sides. I think the it works better.
There are arguments I've heard sort of like the ones
the debate we just had that we're are more heated
(20:01):
than that. You thin get the when you're actually thinking
about both sides and not taking a side, it it
kind of works better because really there are some benefits
with with clothes, you do have things that just work, um,
But with open you do have a lot more choice
and the ability to tinker more with it. And it's
sort of really, I think depends on what you're looking for.
So this is why so many people use Windows because
(20:21):
it's sort of an open closed system. Windows is Windows
the sort of the middle ground. Uh, it's it's it
leans closed. Yeah, it lands closed, but it has a
lot of flexibility for people to build applications that run
on Windows. So in that that sense, it's open in
the in the way that you know, again, third party
developers create the vast majority of software that runs on
(20:44):
Windows based PCs. You know, very a small percentage of
the software that runs on Windows based PCs comes from Microsoft.
There there's there are very important applications that are on
a typical Windows based PC that are from Microsoft. But
you know, if you're like, if you're going to some
video gamers house and you're looking at his rig and
(21:04):
or her rig, I should say because you know, I've
met some lead female video gamers who could wipe the
floor with me in any game I've shows, which is
very they're staring at you now as a matter of fact. Yeah,
well I'll probably end up seeing some of them at
c E s uh, and they'll again I won't challenge
them that I already know how I would turn out anyway.
(21:26):
So you but you go on, you look at the
software on that person's computer, and you're gonna see that
there's a ton of stuff on there that never came
out of Microsoft. Uh. And same, the same sort of
thing applies to Apple. It's not there. It's not as
much software as far as just you know, sheer numbers
as you would find for a Windows based PC. But
you know, even Apple, which we think of as a
(21:46):
really like a walled garden or a closed system, depends
heavily on third party developers. If it didn't, the app
store for the iPhone and iPad and and iPod touch
would be empty. You know, there would be very few
apps that you could run because Apple only provides a few. Um.
But you know, they they they lean very heavily on
third parbaty developers. Not at the same time, third parbaty,
(22:08):
developers have to go through a very rigorous UH routine
in order to submit an app and have it featured
in the App Store, And of course if it's not
in the App Store, technically you can't load it on
an Apple device unless you've gone through the process of
jail breaking it. But using it unaltered an unaltered Apple device,
you can only load things that are through the the
(22:31):
Apple's official App Store, So in that sense it's closed
off because if it's not approved, then it doesn't go
on the same thing with Nintendo. You know, they would
certify the games that would go on their systems, and
if it didn't get Nintendo certification, it didn't it didn't
get made, didn't become available on the Nintendo. So uh,
that's a closed way of looking at And again that
(22:53):
goes to that sort of quality control argument where the
closed the company perpetuating this closed system could argue that
this means that we only have applications of a certain
quality that we know are going to run properly on
our hardware. They're not going to cause any problems with
anything else running on our hardware, and they're going to
(23:15):
deliver an experience that we you know, it reaches a
certain level that we have come to expect with our
our products. Um, whereas if you go with an open system,
it's more like we want anyone to be able to
potentially run anything on this system that's been designed for it,
and we don't want to limit that at all. We
don't want to put our biases against certain kinds of applications,
(23:39):
are certain ways of creating stuff in play. We want
it to be an open playground for everybody. Yeah. Yeah, well, uh,
you know, for for Windows, you can argue, you can
make the hardware argument, well, I can go and build
my own system from the components that I can get
in my my corner electronics store, and I can make
my own system and install Windows on it, and it's
gonna work. Of course, chances are that the there are
(24:02):
drivers for the video card and there are drivers for
all the devices that you're going to do it because
you're running Windows on it, And you would also have
to take considerations like, uh, which kind of motherboard are
you using? Because only certain motherboards will support certain processors
but not other processors. So yeah, you've got limitations on
on you know, It's not like even building a PC
(24:23):
from scratch is not totally open because some components are
going to limit which other components you can actually put
into your machine. In other words, not everything is compatible
with everything else, which is uh for for people who
are interested in dabbling with Lenox. That can be frustrating because, um,
the drivers come around some some component manufacturers will write
(24:46):
a driver for Lenox for their card or or device,
but not all of them will, and so it relies
on the community to put one in there. And for
people who go, you know what, I really want to
try one to or you know Lenox meant or you know,
any of the others, and I want to try this out.
So they put it the disk in there, they reboot
their machines, and they'll find out that parts of their
(25:07):
system don't don't quite work. Yeah, and the more the
more frustrating for people who are just playing around. Yeah,
the more obscure the elements are inside your machine, the
less likely you're gonna find support just off the top
of the bat. I mean, if it's something that's a
really popular component, then you can it's a pretty safe
bet that someone out there has created a driver for
(25:28):
it for an open source operating system, just because you
know law of averages. You've got a lot of people
who are using the same kind of hardware, then there's
a good chance someone has designed something so that that
hardware will work properly with an open source operating system.
But if you've got, you know, some cheap sound card
that you found that it's made by someone that hardly
anyone knows about, it may not have the support there
(25:51):
in an open source operating system. But then you know,
the same thing is true with if you if you
upgrade a Windows based PC and you go to the
newest form of Windows, often you will find that one
of the big problems is that you'll lose um support
for certain kinds of peripherals. The drivers will not update
(26:12):
or they aren't compatible with the new operating system, and
sometimes they gets patched, or sometimes the device manufacturers will
release a new driver that works specifically with a new
operating system. But you can get stuck that way too,
so it's not like it's only with open source. In fact,
that was one of the big problems that people were
reporting with mac Os ten Lion, was that you know,
(26:33):
if you upgraded that which is a closed system, you
know what you're talking about a known quantity with Apple hardware.
But if you upgraded, there were certain peripherals that they
didn't have driver support anymore, and you know, or certain
software that had no no longer had support, and it
was software that was designed to run on the Mac
operating system and yet could not run this newest version
(26:55):
of the OS. UH. So it's not like it's a
problem that's unique to open source. It can also happen
in a closed system. UM. You know, the people who
create closed systems would probably argue what happens less frequently,
or that you might not have to wait as long.
But that's you know, kind of splitting hairs. Yeah, that's um.
That's another thing too for for operating systems that are
(27:17):
designed by the community. UM, there's you know, it may
be difficult to find a particular driver or piece of
software simply because somebody may not necessarily be working on it.
Depending on if there are vulnerabilities in the operating system
the UH generally something like that is going to draw
the attention of the community and will be fixed more quickly.
Apple gets criticized from time to time when they find
(27:37):
vulnerabilities in the operating system that could open the machine
up to UH uh possible attack. UM you know, for
not acting on it as quickly as Microsoft does with
its patches. UM. You know. So there's there's a trade
off there, UM, but there is I think there is
some benefit in a way of being that more hybrid
(27:58):
system because um, you know, that attracts the most users.
I want some flexibility, but I want most mostly I
want it to work. UM. So you get that sort
of combo uh system. And that's really sort of what
Android is really when you get down to it. Because
Android works on a multitude of different phones, whereas iOS.
(28:21):
Apple's iOS system works on Apple branded phones and those
only UM and some of the others due to the
the web os worked on the on the Palm phones,
UM you know, those are those are closed systems. UM.
Windows works on a on a variety of different phones.
But the problem is for developers, and they find this
with a variety of systems too, that um uh closed
(28:44):
system is an easier target for them to hit. UM.
One of the complaints I've heard from Android developers is that, uh,
they have difficulty writing software that will work with all
the different versions of the operating system they're out there,
and all all these different phones with all the different
hardware components, the thing being a part of the problem
being the carriers, because they're not the ones not pushing
(29:06):
out the operating system updates for the different phones. Some
of the older updates are just lingering on. I'm not
looking at you people who won't update my phone months
after Jonathan's gotten his anyway, um anyhow, Yes, I'm beating
the desk of my can because I'm angry with them.
But yeah, I mean that's a it's a problem for
developers a closed system. Hey, you know you have a
(29:27):
specific range of components. You know what kind of processor
in general is going to be in there. You have
a pretty good idea what the operating system entails. You know,
it's it's an easy target to hit. But the problem
with in the Mac cases, fewer people are using it,
so it's less it's a less desirable target hit because
there are fewer dollars to be made by writing software
for it. Trade off. Getting back to the idea of
(29:49):
the clothes versus open and operate system updates, uh so,
let's let's go ahead and we'll talk about Apple versus Google,
because that's that's pretty easy. And even then again, Apple
is not totally a close stem and Google. Google is
certainly not totally an open system. But it's a different approach, right,
Like you were saying, Uh, the iOS is only going
to appear on iPhones, You're not going to find that
(30:10):
another hardware. Um, it's because the iPhone was designed to
do it. That That's the way Apple once it done,
it's and that's how it's intended. So yeah, sticking with
phones because that makes it it makes illustration, makes illustration.
Uh So then on the Android side, Android can theoretically
be added to Like a manufacturer can choose to partner
(30:31):
with Google and create an Android phone. It's free, it's
pretty system is free. They can they can just build.
All you have to do is build hardware that is
capable of supporting Android, and then they are allowed to
have Android as the operating system for that smartphone. So
two different approaches. Um. Now with Apple, when there's an
OS update for iOS, Apple can push that out to
all the different devices that can still support that iOS.
(30:54):
But there's still going to be some that get left
behind eventually, just because the physical limitations of hardware will
be reached, you won't be able to go beyond this.
So if you have a first generation iPhone, it's only
going to run iOS up to a certain point, and
after that you're never gonna get an update again, because
you've reached the capacity of what that hardware is capable
of achieving without having a completely unsatisfying experience using that iPhone. Well,
(31:18):
they could just never make a newer one, except then
everyone would have what they were going to buy and
there wouldn't be any reason for them upgrade. So anyway,
Uh but yeah, But but if you have a fairly
recent like usually it's within for the last three generations,
the latest one, the one right before that, and maybe
(31:38):
the one before that, you typically are able to get
the latest um software upgrade. You might eventually get left behind,
like the three GS is probably getting pretty close to
its upper limits right now. But uh, you know, meanwhile,
when you go over to the Android side, you have
all these different carriers and they're all having they all
have handsets with different capabilities, and uh, you know, some
(32:02):
of those handsets might be able to run the latest
version of Android and some of them might not, you know,
or if they were to run the latest version of Android,
the handset might get really hot and the battery might
drain really quickly, so you would have a very unhappy
experience u seeing it, even if you had the lace version.
You're like, well, I've got the lace version, but my
phone lasts for two hours, then it's dead, and at
(32:22):
the whole time it feels like it's gonna set my
pants on fire. Um, make all the excuses you want,
they still haven't pushed it out to my phone. Okay,
Well for some people, like Chris setting your pants on fire,
apparently it's a feature, not a bug. Um, but what
kills there? You go, Okay, well we've all learned something
new about christa. Um. So yeah, the the that is
(32:44):
that is one of the downsides. Now again, like Chris
was saying, you've got a lot more choice with the
open system. So if you want a phone that has
a certain processor in it or has a certain kind
of camera in it, you've got a lot more choice
than you would if you are on the other side.
Closestem You've got you know, with the closestem you essentially
have the latest version of it, and usually the one
(33:05):
directly before it, and maybe the one before that. And
uh yeah, I mean you have all the people that
have adopted and and Android numbers that we've that have
been coming out as of about the time that we're
recording this in very very late. Um, Android numbers are
taking off. I mean they're far outstripping apples iPhone new
(33:29):
customers even as fast as the iPhone sales. And I
think there are two big reasons. But I'm sorry, go ahead,
Well I was gonna say, is that, well, go ahead, Well,
the two big reasons I see is one, there's way
more choice. Yeah, right, so you've got like all these
different options. And two there are a lot more lower
cost options out there, Like with the iPhone you've got
(33:51):
you know, you've got the latest version, which is going
to be pretty expensive, and then the older version, which
is slightly less expensive. But you're not gonna find any
like bargain bin types off you're not gonna come across.
I don't know if anyone who's ever offered like a
free iPhone with a two year contract, but there have
been Android phones, the older ones. Yeah, um, actually low
(34:12):
cost I guess maybe not free. Um. Well, that the
thing is that now that that Android is becoming the
big target for developers in its class. Um, you know,
there are all kinds of apps that are out there
and available for it. Um. They're also all kinds of
app stores that you can use to You don't have
to go through just the Google Marketplace if you don't
(34:33):
want to, although you do have to change a setting
on your phone in order to be able to access them.
That that's correct. Um. The thing is, though, the bigger
the target, the more people the developers of all kinds,
including malware developers, It attracts that um not you know,
this has nothing to do with the quality of the
operating system or the security measures inherent in the operating system.
(34:54):
It's just a bigger target and therefore it's a um,
a juicier place to strike for the person and even
the legit people too. I mean, hey, I can I
can sell my app in this app store and reach
five thousand people. I can sell my app in this
app store and reach five million people itself far more
over here. The thing is, though, and also UH and
(35:15):
I would argue that this is the case for any
tech that has reached that kind of UH adoption rate,
that it also inspires a lot of junk. I mean,
we saw it with Attari when opened up the platform
and allowed other people to write software for it. They
were all kind of that's what caused the video game crept,
which is where I was getting into the whole curation
(35:36):
argument in the debate. If you are using an open system,
then you're gonna have a lot more choice with when
it comes to not just you know, options, but but
apps that you can run. But that also means that
with the good comes a lot of bad, not that
the closed systems necessarily you know, it's not that Apple
is free of bad apps. There are plenty of bad
apps in the Apple App Store, So I don't mean
(35:58):
to say that, but no, no, it because that there's
not necessarily like there's no qualifier to create an app
for Google, and you can submit to the Google Marketplace,
or you can even host it somewhere else if you
want to and not even go through the the process
of submitting it to Google market and people can still
find it and download it to their shorts or tablets,
you know, mobile devices. Um, but yeah, that curation becomes
(36:22):
a problem because then if you've got that much choice
and there's no like, there's no one out there who's
kind of curating this for you, it all falls on
your shoulders. And uh, that can just get exhausting. I mean,
I mean looking through just the list of applications, uh,
just you know, going page by page. You sit there
and think, well, I could look at the ones that
(36:43):
are the most popular and use that as kind of
a guide of curation. But it may very well be
that the app that really meets my needs is eight
pages down. And you know that gets kind of frustrating
after a while. Um. Yeah, And it's it's It's funny
too because one of the things that to some people
have said against Lenox. I mean, I've I've used a
(37:04):
couple of different flavors of Linux. I really like the
operating system. I Um, I don't like that there are
fewer people writing software for it, but I still I
love the idea, and I like the operating system an
awful lot um and the more I play with it,
the more I've enjoyed using it. But the thing is,
some people have said that the fact that it's free
(37:24):
is a problem because it sort of encourages people to
think that it's not actually worth anything. Right, it should
have money. It gives it gives a It gives some
people the feeling that, well, if it's free, it must
not be very good. Because yeah, because you know, if
it were good, I'd have to pay money for it,
which is untrue. Which is funny because if you had
to pay money for it, people will be trying to
(37:45):
find a way around having to pay money for it.
Now you're you're making my brain hurt. Here's the crazy Okay,
stereotypical computer user, stereotypical Internet savvy computer user. All right,
if something doesn't cost money, then it's not worth having.
If it's If something costs money, it's worth having, but
you shouldn't pay for it. Yeah, like you are a
messed up person. Typical computer user. You need to re
(38:08):
examine your priorities. Yeah, yeah, well I think And by
the way, I was once like you, well, I think yeah,
ideally to me anyway, And I think it does come
down to personal choice. I think ideally, Um, I do
prefer a hybrid. I do want I don't want to
have to. I like the idea of being able to
hack into things and being able to make choices and
(38:29):
fool around with stuff, but I want it at the end,
I wanted to be able to work. I don't want
to spend all my time hacking with it. I was like, Okay,
I'm done now. I want to close the hood and
play on it, and I can't. Kind it broke. And
we both own devices that run Android, and we both
own devices that run Apple operating systems, so we both
own Windows computers. Yeah, so I mean, it's it's not
(38:51):
like it's not like we're saying this as fanboys of
one system versus another, even though we played that in
the debate. Um, I mean I I own an Android phone.
My wife has an iPhone, and we are both very
happy with our devices for very different reasons. It meets
exactly what she wants in a smartphone, but for me
it would probably be it's a beautiful device and it
has a great interface, but it probably would be more
(39:13):
frustrating to me than my Android phone, which meets my needs.
Whereas the Android phone, I know for a fact, would
annoy and irritate my wife because she used to have
one and she doesn't anymore and she never will again
because she's very happy with her iPhone. So again, it's
too just two different people and two different uh preferences
(39:35):
for the operating system. It's it's not that one is
inherently better or worse than the other. It's just that
it suits mine you know, one suits my needs and
one suits sers. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's it all comes
down to the stuff that matters to the individual. Um.
And in the end, I think it's it's uh, most
people sort of go for the mix of things. Well,
I want this part to just work, but the rest
(39:56):
of it I want to be able to fool around with.
And I think that's another one of the appeals of Windows.
It's it's sort of that middle ground. Um. You know, like,
like I said, we all own the various devices, and
we all see the value and and the limitations of
each system. Um. I think I think it really you know,
if if, however you're going about it, if you're dedicated
(40:16):
to making the best possible product or service that you
that you possibly can, whether it's as a member of
the community of the open source world, or if it's
you know, a closed system, I think that is what's
most important to me. The whole open versus closed is
just a general philosophy that guides your your development process.
It's not something that you know, I should definitely be
(40:39):
you know, uh endorsed or or or scorned. Well, it
frustrates me listening to people talk about it and seeing
comments online from people who are so devoted to one
side or the other that they will scream and call
names and use profanity to definite side and going. But
I mean, I see, I see arguments for both sides,
(40:59):
and yeah, I think there are valid points for both ye.
And it's it is a dangerous thing because once you
get once you become a fan of a certain way
of doing things, then it almost feels like if someone
else praises a different way of doing it, that it's
somehow an Yeah, it's an attack against what you like,
which isn't necessarily the case. It's yeah, no, it's definitely
not fair. But it does happen all the time. I
(41:20):
see it all the time where someone will praise one
system and someone else takes that as hey, you're saying
that the system I like sucks, And no, that's not
what I said. I just said that this system was
also good. I didn't even mention your system. Please don't
yell at me trolls. So if you want to know
more about that, listen to our podcast on how trolls
work East Jonathan Strickland in the operating system you like stinks? Right? Yeah, Okay, Well,
(41:47):
that that's a good summary. This was fun. I don't
know that will necessarily do any more debates, but this
was we just decided, like I said off the top
of the bat, yeah, maybe we'll do another one where
we'll do a very specific debate and how to pick
two different things that that clearly have a divider between them.
In fact, we get a third person in here. We
(42:08):
could do the Xbox versus PlayStation versus Nintendo throwdown, which
would be a blast. We have one person just crying
in the corner and say alright, so guys, if you
have any suggestions for future debates or other podcast let's know,
let's go on Facebook or Twitter. Are handled. There is
tech stuff hs W and Chris and I will talk
(42:30):
to you again really soon. This episode of tech Stuff
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(01:03):
com slash tech stuff. Hello, They're welcome to tech Stuff.
My name is Chris Poulette and I am an editor
at How Stuff Works, sitting across from me, debatedbly Is,
as always a senior writer Jonathan st I had the
story bit by bit from various people, and as generally
happens in such cases, each time it was a different story.
(01:27):
So today we're going to have a goofy little debate
about open systems versus closed systems. We just decided that
we're going to experiment with this. We've never done one
of these before, and in fact, we decided on it
about thirty seconds before we started recording, and so to
determine who would represent which side, we did the most
scientific thing we could think of. We flipped a coin.
(01:49):
It's the quarter United States quarter for those of you
who think that matters. Uh. And it turns out that
mint did it come from? Um you know what? I
put it back in my pocket, So I don't know.
But but Mr Chris rigged. Mr Chris Philette will be
representing the open system side and I shall be representing
the closed system side. So I think that proves it
wasn't rigged. Look at the kind of phone I'm using.
(02:13):
So anyway, Uh, I think I think in order to
really understand what we're talking about. First, we have to
establish what we mean by an open versus a closed system.
So let me tell you what a closed system is.
Closed system is quality people. That's what a closed system is.
Closed system is where you create a an infrastructure, uh
(02:34):
an ecosystem, if you will, where you control as many
of the factors as you possibly can, and you don't
allow outside influences to change your system. So an example
of a company that takes the closed system approach is Apple.
That's not to say that Apple only does the closed
(02:54):
off approach. If it did, then you would never be
able to run any other kind of software or app
on Apple products. You would only be able to run
Apple created stuff. But it's an example of a system
because it's more closed than it is open. And there
are various reasons for doing this, but we'll get into
that in the debate. But that that's kind of what
how I define a closed system. It's one where you're
(03:16):
trying to control as much as possible, and it's all
coming from or as much of it as possible is
coming from a single source, and the outside stuff is
shut away. Yes, And and I think as we talk
about this, our listeners will realize that there are few
absolutes in this discussion. Very true. Okay, so open source
(03:37):
information wants to be free, and the ore are computing
devices should too. It's the only way to be, uh,
you know, free to be you and me? Um okay
yea hippy. No, an open system is is something that
is not made for corporate gain. It is out there
(03:59):
for the public to use. Anybody who wants to make
a contribution to it. Can people can use it, uh
if they want to. And there it's it's there as
offered as a public service. Um. And is therefore the
people of the people, by the people, and you closed
system punks should leave us alone because this is the
(04:20):
way it really should be and trying to make a
buck off that is wrong. Yeah. So if you think
of it, uh, an open system is sort of democratic
and that anyone can really contribute to it and and
change it. And also we should point out before we
really get into this debate, uh, that it is possible
to have a a product probably that's for sale, either
that's an open system or a closed system. Open and
(04:42):
closed does not mean that one is free and one
is is you charge for Yeah, I was I I did. Yeah,
that's a good point. I should have pointed out that
sort of the quote unquote ideal version when when a
lot of people talk about open source, right, if you're
going the ultimate open source, like the utopian version of
open source, when you're talking about that's cool, that's cool, Yeah,
(05:03):
because there there really is a spectrum here. But we're
gonna try and be like hardcore. So mal, let me
explain why I think that closed systems are superior to
open systems. So with a closed system and with with
with with everything coming from a single source. So in
this case, let's say it's a company. A company is
creating a product that is closed off, no other outside
(05:26):
influence can can come into this product. It means that
there's an expectation of quality control that you don't have
with open systems. You actually can test everything, make sure
everything works properly on the hardware. So if we're talking
about a computer, we know that the software will work
on the computer because the software and hardware have been
developed together from the ground up. It means that you
(05:49):
don't have to worry about some weird incompatibility issue when
you try and install a program onto this device, because
again everything is coming from the same source and was
made to work together. Now this can go beyond just
a computer. Let's say that you have a computer and
a smartphone and a tablet and they're all part of
the same closed system. It means that you can expect
(06:12):
a fairly uniform experience across these three platforms, and maybe
even be able to port your experience from one to
the other. And what I mean by that is, let's
say I'm watching a movie on my smartphone and then
I decide, you know what, I really want to look
at this on a bigger screen, and I tap it
over to my tablet, and the tablet starts playing the
movie exactly where I left off, and it all works
(06:33):
seamlessly because it's all running on the same platform that's
meant to work together. That is one of the big
benefits of a closed system is that you have a
uniformity in the experience and an expectation of things are
just gonna work because it was all built together and
meant to work together. Why are you taking away my choice?
(06:58):
If I want to have a different video card than
the one you stuck in my computer, I want to
be able to remove it and stick a different one
in there, you know what. And it's and it's frustrating
because any time I want to change a component on
my computer or I want something a little different, UH,
you know, I have to deal with all the complications
(07:19):
that you're closed off. UH system is is taking away
And the problem is that, UH, you're also restricting competition
because in your closed system, there's only one way to
go for a tablet, and there's one way to go
for an MP three player, and there's one way to
go for a smartphone. There's one way to go for
a computer. And I want I want choice. I want
(07:41):
to be able to customize my my computing experience. I
want to be able to buy something cheaper because competition
is driving down the cost of these products. So I
could go to your store and buy the one computer
you've got, or I could go to this store over
here and buy fifty different computers, and all of them
are cheaper than yours, and some of them even outperform yours. Well,
(08:02):
So what do you say to that? Here's what I
say to that. Sure, it might be cheaper, and even
if you have a device, a particular individual device that
performs better than one of my particular individual devices. If
you are trying to have an experience that spans multiple devices,
then you're going to start encountering things where the compatibility
issues come into play, and you may have things like
(08:23):
software crashes because it's not designed to work together seamlessly
like a closed system is. So you might spend less
money initially when you first purchase your vast array of
choice here and you've got let you know, your ultimate
price tag is lower than you would if you have
bought everything from my superior closed system store. But the
(08:45):
amount of frustration you're going to have as that experience
is unsatisfactory because the various pieces are not playing together
properly is far going to outweigh the miniscule additional investment
you would have to make if you had purchased it
all from me in the first place. And yeah, you're
one individual device might behave better or perform better than
(09:05):
why one individual device, but collectively, the experience is much
more satisfying on my end than it is on yours,
because it's yours is piecemeal, and also my system is
designed to just work. Your system is designed to make
me have to have a computer science degree if I
want to figure out how to do the same thing
on one device as I'm doing on another device. Ha superior,
(09:31):
You say, yes, I don't think that word means what
you think. Well, here, let me put it to you
another way. Let's let's let's take a look at the
way a closed system versus an open system attacks the
problem of malware, because they have very different approaches. Right, So,
if we're talking about the perfect closed system, ideally there's
(09:52):
no malware because nothing from outside is being introduced into
the system unless there's some you know, disgruntled employee that
I bullied out of out of their sanity. We don't
have to worry about malware entering into the closed system
because everything is made by this one entity and it's
all made to work together, so you don't have to
worry about some sort of virus perpetuating itself through your system.
(10:15):
Now that's different from the way open systems attack malware. Well,
see the open systems, you could have other people, multiple
people working on solutions to things like vulnerabilities in the
operating system, and people who are working on uh anti
malware software for your system. So the thing is, that's
(10:38):
a small price to pay for the ability to hack
into the system and change whatever you want to change
about the system. If you want to, uh, get into
the operating system and see what makes it tick and
learn more about what what programs and what functions are
going on in the background. For example, you could be
(10:59):
monitoring everything I do, but if you're in your closed system,
I can't get into the background to see that. Then
you know you could be doing this all without my knowledge.
Um So with an open system, I I'm free to
install any software I want to or remove any software
I want to from my device. And I could even
write my own because you know it's open, and uh,
(11:20):
it gives me the opportunity to to hack in and
play with it and make it my own instead of
make it what your vision is. Because what if your
closed vision, you're closed off, walled off, little garden isn't
what I think of as being the best experience for me,
because hey, everybody's an individual, right Well. First of all,
we know what you want, even when you don't see
(11:41):
That's the thing is, we know what you want. You
don't know what you want, but we know what you want.
You think you know what you want, but until you've
actually bought into our our closed system, you really haven't
haven't experienced it, And we're going to go back into
the quality issue. Let's talk about the quality of and
we're talking about computing systems here. Let's talk about the
(12:02):
quality of the programs that you're running on your system. Again,
with the closed system approach, those programs have been built
for a very specific set of hardware, which does not
change from what you know that if I buy my
computer from this closed system and someone else buys their
computer from the same closed system, those two computers are
going to be identical in every meaningful way, So we
(12:25):
know that the software is going to work equally well
on my system as it is on their system. Whereas
if we both just go into a computer store and
we each just buy a computer from various you know, manufacturers,
there's no guarantee that the same kind of software is
going to work just as well in my machine as
it is on their machine, even if the two machines
are running the same operating system, because we have difficulties
(12:46):
introduced by things like device drivers and hardware differences. With
the closed system, you've eliminated that you don't have to
worry about that so much. So that means that the
quality of the experience of the software. Put aside the
quality of the software itself, but the experience of using
it is going to be less frustrating. Uh the you know,
(13:08):
you might say that there's a downside with the whole
choice factor, but at the same time, you don't have
to worry about it crashing all the time or just
not behaving the proper way. I think. Sure, sometimes things happen,
but on a much less frequent basis than on these
these little open systems out there that that just well,
I don't know, they they they just they just are
(13:30):
like every anything goes well with the potential of with
with open source software, you have to potential a limitless
potential of applications that could be run for it. The
more open you become, the greater the possibilities. Um. You know.
So you can have your closed system and have things
(13:51):
that run specifically on that hardware. But you know, programmers
like their choices too, and they're gonna go where where
the wealth of soft where it is, and that's when
you attract more users, and vice versa and versa visa.
And I disagree with that because users, most users don't
want to be curators. And if you are a user
(14:12):
of an open system, you have to be a curator
because there's so much that you're talking about, so much
variety and so much choice, that it's overwhelming to the
average user. You sit down and you see like there's
it's like walking into a library and you have no
idea what book you want to read. You just know
you want to read a book, and you walk into
an enormous library and you have no idea where to go.
(14:34):
It's too confusing. Whereas in a closed system, it's been
curated for you. Your choices are limited, but at the
same time, you don't have to worry about going through
eight thousand different word processing programs in order to find
one that suits your needs. There's really only one choice,
and if it suits your needs, that's awesome. Jonathan, you ignorance.
(14:56):
Ha ha oh Saturday night Life. I bet you they
cut that. Um anyhow, uh well, see, there's one thing
that that you're leaving out here, the market, because what
happens here is the market helps people whittle down their choices.
When you have something the the word processor of choice,
(15:16):
the one that that more people are using than people understand,
it's the best seller phenomenon it's like you look at
the best seller lists and you and you say, you
know what, these books are very popular. I bet you
anything that if I if I read it, I'm you know,
I will at least look at these first because I
know lots of people like them, and that helps people
(15:36):
make choices as far as software is concerned, and you know,
there's always a new programmer coming online to develop new
software and you can always help be the kingmaker for
the next generation of software too. But not in the
closed system where you know your choices are somewhat limited.
I don't know. I'm trying to think of a best
selling open source software example, and it's really hard. Well,
(16:00):
you know, in a lot of cases, open source software
can be free or donationware, and a donationware world, people
pay what they what it's worth to them. And sure
some people are going to pay a quarter, and there
are also people who pay a hundred dollars for the
same piece of software because it means more to them
and it's important to them to donate to the community.
(16:22):
I mean, you know, not found that out? How did
how did Minecraft? Just you know, it's it's a thing. Yeah,
but I still think that the closed system is the
way to go. It's a sustainable business model. It means
that you once you develop your your your line of devotees,
you're good to go. I mean because you you've created
(16:43):
that expectation of that quality of experience that you deliver
upon consistently, and by doing that, you know that you know,
as long as you maintain that level of quality, that
you will have a customer base moving forward. Whereas with
this open source roach, I don't see how you're gonna be,
you know, really making a sustainable business out of that.
(17:05):
And while the ideals are wonderful and fantastic and and
and and and happy and all that mess um, I
just don't see it, you know, perpetuating itself after a
certain amount. You know, eventually a guy's got to eat well.
And and that's why I think, uh, that's why I
think openness is sort of a bell curve. Yeah, because
(17:28):
the one end you have the clothe the the completely
closed off system with fewer fewer users, which you know,
we should point out again there's not really that many.
I can't think of any company that would be that
I could point to that say absolutely is this like
even the systems that we think of as closed like
Apple and Nintendo aren't really that closed. Otherwise no third
(17:50):
party developer would ever be able to create anything for
their platforms. Right. And then at the other side, UM,
I'm trying to think of somebody who is really completely
open as far as open source. But that's as close
as you can get. Yeah. And the thing is, as
Jonathan pointed out earlier, UM, Lennox is free and it's
(18:12):
you know, the sources open, which is in the guts
of the operating system are open for people to use.
And there are distributions of Linux that are completely free
for people to use, and there are others that. Uh.
There is a purchase price because it is tailored two
specific needs and usually has some support level of support
built into that. So if you buy the software, then
you can expect to have someone to call if you've
(18:33):
got a problem. Yeah. Sometimes it's not the software itself
that's that's got the price tag. It's the support. Yeah.
So for example, Buntu is that way you can you
can get a free version of a Buntu and install
it on your computer. By the way, the debate part
of this podcast is over In case you hadn't realized
that We're now getting into the more informational side. Um. Yeah,
the the and I think that went really well. The
(18:54):
but Abuntu, you you can get that for free and
install that on a machine for free. But if you
want to have professional level support, then you can pay
a certain amount of money and then you will have
access to UM support staff, which could be anything from
my computer isn't behaving properly, what is the what is
the source of this problem? How do I fix it too?
(19:17):
I'm running an actual closed network of machines in this
one business, and I need to know how to set
this up so that everything is secure that kind of
it's it's all levels of support. Uh. And and you know,
there are definitely arguments both for and against the closed
and open systems, as we were demonstrating earlier. And it's
not that one system is inherently better or worse than
(19:40):
the other. They're just different philosophies on how to provide
UM goods and services. Yeah. Really there the arguments we
were making. I think, um, you know, there were good
arguments on both sides. I think the it works better.
There are arguments I've heard sort of like the ones
the debate we just had that we're are more heated
(20:01):
than that. You thin get the when you're actually thinking
about both sides and not taking a side, it it
kind of works better because really there are some benefits
with with clothes, you do have things that just work, um,
But with open you do have a lot more choice
and the ability to tinker more with it. And it's
sort of really, I think depends on what you're looking for.
So this is why so many people use Windows because
(20:21):
it's sort of an open closed system. Windows is Windows
the sort of the middle ground. Uh, it's it's it
leans closed. Yeah, it lands closed, but it has a
lot of flexibility for people to build applications that run
on Windows. So in that that sense, it's open in
the in the way that you know, again, third party
developers create the vast majority of software that runs on
(20:44):
Windows based PCs. You know, very a small percentage of
the software that runs on Windows based PCs comes from Microsoft.
There there's there are very important applications that are on
a typical Windows based PC that are from Microsoft. But
you know, if you're like, if you're going to some
video gamers house and you're looking at his rig and
(21:04):
or her rig, I should say because you know, I've
met some lead female video gamers who could wipe the
floor with me in any game I've shows, which is
very they're staring at you now as a matter of fact. Yeah,
well I'll probably end up seeing some of them at
c E s uh, and they'll again I won't challenge
them that I already know how I would turn out anyway.
(21:26):
So you but you go on, you look at the
software on that person's computer, and you're gonna see that
there's a ton of stuff on there that never came
out of Microsoft. Uh. And same, the same sort of
thing applies to Apple. It's not there. It's not as
much software as far as just you know, sheer numbers
as you would find for a Windows based PC. But
you know, even Apple, which we think of as a
(21:46):
really like a walled garden or a closed system, depends
heavily on third party developers. If it didn't, the app
store for the iPhone and iPad and and iPod touch
would be empty. You know, there would be very few
apps that you could run because Apple only provides a few. Um.
But you know, they they they lean very heavily on
third parbaty developers. Not at the same time, third parbaty,
(22:08):
developers have to go through a very rigorous UH routine
in order to submit an app and have it featured
in the App Store, And of course if it's not
in the App Store, technically you can't load it on
an Apple device unless you've gone through the process of
jail breaking it. But using it unaltered an unaltered Apple device,
you can only load things that are through the the
(22:31):
Apple's official App Store, So in that sense it's closed
off because if it's not approved, then it doesn't go
on the same thing with Nintendo. You know, they would
certify the games that would go on their systems, and
if it didn't get Nintendo certification, it didn't it didn't
get made, didn't become available on the Nintendo. So uh,
that's a closed way of looking at And again that
(22:53):
goes to that sort of quality control argument where the
closed the company perpetuating this closed system could argue that
this means that we only have applications of a certain
quality that we know are going to run properly on
our hardware. They're not going to cause any problems with
anything else running on our hardware, and they're going to
(23:15):
deliver an experience that we you know, it reaches a
certain level that we have come to expect with our
our products. Um, whereas if you go with an open system,
it's more like we want anyone to be able to
potentially run anything on this system that's been designed for it,
and we don't want to limit that at all. We
don't want to put our biases against certain kinds of applications,
(23:39):
are certain ways of creating stuff in play. We want
it to be an open playground for everybody. Yeah. Yeah, well, uh,
you know, for for Windows, you can argue, you can
make the hardware argument, well, I can go and build
my own system from the components that I can get
in my my corner electronics store, and I can make
my own system and install Windows on it, and it's
gonna work. Of course, chances are that the there are
(24:02):
drivers for the video card and there are drivers for
all the devices that you're going to do it because
you're running Windows on it, And you would also have
to take considerations like, uh, which kind of motherboard are
you using? Because only certain motherboards will support certain processors
but not other processors. So yeah, you've got limitations on
on you know, It's not like even building a PC
(24:23):
from scratch is not totally open because some components are
going to limit which other components you can actually put
into your machine. In other words, not everything is compatible
with everything else, which is uh for for people who
are interested in dabbling with Lenox. That can be frustrating because, um,
the drivers come around some some component manufacturers will write
(24:46):
a driver for Lenox for their card or or device,
but not all of them will, and so it relies
on the community to put one in there. And for
people who go, you know what, I really want to
try one to or you know Lenox meant or you know,
any of the others, and I want to try this out.
So they put it the disk in there, they reboot
their machines, and they'll find out that parts of their
(25:07):
system don't don't quite work. Yeah, and the more the
more frustrating for people who are just playing around. Yeah,
the more obscure the elements are inside your machine, the
less likely you're gonna find support just off the top
of the bat. I mean, if it's something that's a
really popular component, then you can it's a pretty safe
bet that someone out there has created a driver for
(25:28):
it for an open source operating system, just because you
know law of averages. You've got a lot of people
who are using the same kind of hardware, then there's
a good chance someone has designed something so that that
hardware will work properly with an open source operating system.
But if you've got, you know, some cheap sound card
that you found that it's made by someone that hardly
anyone knows about, it may not have the support there
(25:51):
in an open source operating system. But then you know,
the same thing is true with if you if you
upgrade a Windows based PC and you go to the
newest form of Windows, often you will find that one
of the big problems is that you'll lose um support
for certain kinds of peripherals. The drivers will not update
(26:12):
or they aren't compatible with the new operating system, and
sometimes they gets patched, or sometimes the device manufacturers will
release a new driver that works specifically with a new
operating system. But you can get stuck that way too,
so it's not like it's only with open source. In fact,
that was one of the big problems that people were
reporting with mac Os ten Lion, was that you know,
(26:33):
if you upgraded that which is a closed system, you
know what you're talking about a known quantity with Apple hardware.
But if you upgraded, there were certain peripherals that they
didn't have driver support anymore, and you know, or certain
software that had no no longer had support, and it
was software that was designed to run on the Mac
operating system and yet could not run this newest version
(26:55):
of the OS. UH. So it's not like it's a
problem that's unique to open source. It can also happen
in a closed system. UM. You know, the people who
create closed systems would probably argue what happens less frequently,
or that you might not have to wait as long.
But that's you know, kind of splitting hairs. Yeah, that's um.
That's another thing too for for operating systems that are
(27:17):
designed by the community. UM, there's you know, it may
be difficult to find a particular driver or piece of
software simply because somebody may not necessarily be working on it.
Depending on if there are vulnerabilities in the operating system
the UH generally something like that is going to draw
the attention of the community and will be fixed more quickly.
Apple gets criticized from time to time when they find
(27:37):
vulnerabilities in the operating system that could open the machine
up to UH uh possible attack. UM you know, for
not acting on it as quickly as Microsoft does with
its patches. UM. You know. So there's there's a trade
off there, UM, but there is I think there is
some benefit in a way of being that more hybrid
(27:58):
system because um, you know, that attracts the most users.
I want some flexibility, but I want most mostly I
want it to work. UM. So you get that sort
of combo uh system. And that's really sort of what
Android is really when you get down to it. Because
Android works on a multitude of different phones, whereas iOS.
(28:21):
Apple's iOS system works on Apple branded phones and those
only UM and some of the others due to the
the web os worked on the on the Palm phones,
UM you know, those are those are closed systems. UM.
Windows works on a on a variety of different phones.
But the problem is for developers, and they find this
with a variety of systems too, that um uh closed
(28:44):
system is an easier target for them to hit. UM.
One of the complaints I've heard from Android developers is that, uh,
they have difficulty writing software that will work with all
the different versions of the operating system they're out there,
and all all these different phones with all the different
hardware components, the thing being a part of the problem
being the carriers, because they're not the ones not pushing
(29:06):
out the operating system updates for the different phones. Some
of the older updates are just lingering on. I'm not
looking at you people who won't update my phone months
after Jonathan's gotten his anyway, um anyhow, Yes, I'm beating
the desk of my can because I'm angry with them.
But yeah, I mean that's a it's a problem for
developers a closed system. Hey, you know you have a
(29:27):
specific range of components. You know what kind of processor
in general is going to be in there. You have
a pretty good idea what the operating system entails. You know,
it's it's an easy target to hit. But the problem
with in the Mac cases, fewer people are using it,
so it's less it's a less desirable target hit because
there are fewer dollars to be made by writing software
for it. Trade off. Getting back to the idea of
(29:49):
the clothes versus open and operate system updates, uh so,
let's let's go ahead and we'll talk about Apple versus Google,
because that's that's pretty easy. And even then again, Apple
is not totally a close stem and Google. Google is
certainly not totally an open system. But it's a different approach, right,
Like you were saying, Uh, the iOS is only going
to appear on iPhones, You're not going to find that
(30:10):
another hardware. Um, it's because the iPhone was designed to
do it. That That's the way Apple once it done,
it's and that's how it's intended. So yeah, sticking with
phones because that makes it it makes illustration, makes illustration.
Uh So then on the Android side, Android can theoretically
be added to Like a manufacturer can choose to partner
(30:31):
with Google and create an Android phone. It's free, it's
pretty system is free. They can they can just build.
All you have to do is build hardware that is
capable of supporting Android, and then they are allowed to
have Android as the operating system for that smartphone. So
two different approaches. Um. Now with Apple, when there's an
OS update for iOS, Apple can push that out to
all the different devices that can still support that iOS.
(30:54):
But there's still going to be some that get left
behind eventually, just because the physical limitations of hardware will
be reached, you won't be able to go beyond this.
So if you have a first generation iPhone, it's only
going to run iOS up to a certain point, and
after that you're never gonna get an update again, because
you've reached the capacity of what that hardware is capable
of achieving without having a completely unsatisfying experience using that iPhone. Well,
(31:18):
they could just never make a newer one, except then
everyone would have what they were going to buy and
there wouldn't be any reason for them upgrade. So anyway,
Uh but yeah, But but if you have a fairly
recent like usually it's within for the last three generations,
the latest one, the one right before that, and maybe
(31:38):
the one before that, you typically are able to get
the latest um software upgrade. You might eventually get left behind,
like the three GS is probably getting pretty close to
its upper limits right now. But uh, you know, meanwhile,
when you go over to the Android side, you have
all these different carriers and they're all having they all
have handsets with different capabilities, and uh, you know, some
(32:02):
of those handsets might be able to run the latest
version of Android and some of them might not, you know,
or if they were to run the latest version of Android,
the handset might get really hot and the battery might
drain really quickly, so you would have a very unhappy
experience u seeing it, even if you had the lace version.
You're like, well, I've got the lace version, but my
phone lasts for two hours, then it's dead, and at
(32:22):
the whole time it feels like it's gonna set my
pants on fire. Um, make all the excuses you want,
they still haven't pushed it out to my phone. Okay,
Well for some people, like Chris setting your pants on fire,
apparently it's a feature, not a bug. Um, but what
kills there? You go, Okay, well we've all learned something
new about christa. Um. So yeah, the the that is
(32:44):
that is one of the downsides. Now again, like Chris
was saying, you've got a lot more choice with the
open system. So if you want a phone that has
a certain processor in it or has a certain kind
of camera in it, you've got a lot more choice
than you would if you are on the other side.
Closestem You've got you know, with the closestem you essentially
have the latest version of it, and usually the one
(33:05):
directly before it, and maybe the one before that. And
uh yeah, I mean you have all the people that
have adopted and and Android numbers that we've that have
been coming out as of about the time that we're
recording this in very very late. Um, Android numbers are
taking off. I mean they're far outstripping apples iPhone new
(33:29):
customers even as fast as the iPhone sales. And I
think there are two big reasons. But I'm sorry, go ahead,
Well I was gonna say, is that, well, go ahead, Well,
the two big reasons I see is one, there's way
more choice. Yeah, right, so you've got like all these
different options. And two there are a lot more lower
cost options out there, Like with the iPhone you've got
(33:51):
you know, you've got the latest version, which is going
to be pretty expensive, and then the older version, which
is slightly less expensive. But you're not gonna find any
like bargain bin types off you're not gonna come across.
I don't know if anyone who's ever offered like a
free iPhone with a two year contract, but there have
been Android phones, the older ones. Yeah, um, actually low
(34:12):
cost I guess maybe not free. Um. Well, that the
thing is that now that that Android is becoming the
big target for developers in its class. Um, you know,
there are all kinds of apps that are out there
and available for it. Um. They're also all kinds of
app stores that you can use to You don't have
to go through just the Google Marketplace if you don't
(34:33):
want to, although you do have to change a setting
on your phone in order to be able to access them.
That that's correct. Um. The thing is, though, the bigger
the target, the more people the developers of all kinds,
including malware developers, It attracts that um not you know,
this has nothing to do with the quality of the
operating system or the security measures inherent in the operating system.
(34:54):
It's just a bigger target and therefore it's a um,
a juicier place to strike for the person and even
the legit people too. I mean, hey, I can I
can sell my app in this app store and reach
five thousand people. I can sell my app in this
app store and reach five million people itself far more
over here. The thing is, though, and also UH and
(35:15):
I would argue that this is the case for any
tech that has reached that kind of UH adoption rate,
that it also inspires a lot of junk. I mean,
we saw it with Attari when opened up the platform
and allowed other people to write software for it. They
were all kind of that's what caused the video game crept,
which is where I was getting into the whole curation
(35:36):
argument in the debate. If you are using an open system,
then you're gonna have a lot more choice with when
it comes to not just you know, options, but but
apps that you can run. But that also means that
with the good comes a lot of bad, not that
the closed systems necessarily you know, it's not that Apple
is free of bad apps. There are plenty of bad
apps in the Apple App Store, So I don't mean
(35:58):
to say that, but no, no, it because that there's
not necessarily like there's no qualifier to create an app
for Google, and you can submit to the Google Marketplace,
or you can even host it somewhere else if you
want to and not even go through the the process
of submitting it to Google market and people can still
find it and download it to their shorts or tablets,
you know, mobile devices. Um, but yeah, that curation becomes
(36:22):
a problem because then if you've got that much choice
and there's no like, there's no one out there who's
kind of curating this for you, it all falls on
your shoulders. And uh, that can just get exhausting. I mean,
I mean looking through just the list of applications, uh,
just you know, going page by page. You sit there
and think, well, I could look at the ones that
(36:43):
are the most popular and use that as kind of
a guide of curation. But it may very well be
that the app that really meets my needs is eight
pages down. And you know that gets kind of frustrating
after a while. Um. Yeah, And it's it's It's funny
too because one of the things that to some people
have said against Lenox. I mean, I've I've used a
(37:04):
couple of different flavors of Linux. I really like the
operating system. I Um, I don't like that there are
fewer people writing software for it, but I still I
love the idea, and I like the operating system an
awful lot um and the more I play with it,
the more I've enjoyed using it. But the thing is,
some people have said that the fact that it's free
(37:24):
is a problem because it sort of encourages people to
think that it's not actually worth anything. Right, it should
have money. It gives it gives a It gives some
people the feeling that, well, if it's free, it must
not be very good. Because yeah, because you know, if
it were good, I'd have to pay money for it,
which is untrue. Which is funny because if you had
to pay money for it, people will be trying to
(37:45):
find a way around having to pay money for it.
Now you're you're making my brain hurt. Here's the crazy Okay,
stereotypical computer user, stereotypical Internet savvy computer user. All right,
if something doesn't cost money, then it's not worth having.
If it's If something costs money, it's worth having, but
you shouldn't pay for it. Yeah, like you are a
messed up person. Typical computer user. You need to re
(38:08):
examine your priorities. Yeah, yeah, well I think And by
the way, I was once like you, well, I think yeah,
ideally to me anyway, And I think it does come
down to personal choice. I think ideally, Um, I do
prefer a hybrid. I do want I don't want to
have to. I like the idea of being able to
hack into things and being able to make choices and
(38:29):
fool around with stuff, but I want it at the end,
I wanted to be able to work. I don't want
to spend all my time hacking with it. I was like, Okay,
I'm done now. I want to close the hood and
play on it, and I can't. Kind it broke. And
we both own devices that run Android, and we both
own devices that run Apple operating systems, so we both
own Windows computers. Yeah, so I mean, it's it's not
(38:51):
like it's not like we're saying this as fanboys of
one system versus another, even though we played that in
the debate. Um, I mean I I own an Android phone.
My wife has an iPhone, and we are both very
happy with our devices for very different reasons. It meets
exactly what she wants in a smartphone, but for me
it would probably be it's a beautiful device and it
has a great interface, but it probably would be more
(39:13):
frustrating to me than my Android phone, which meets my needs.
Whereas the Android phone, I know for a fact, would
annoy and irritate my wife because she used to have
one and she doesn't anymore and she never will again
because she's very happy with her iPhone. So again, it's
too just two different people and two different uh preferences
(39:35):
for the operating system. It's it's not that one is
inherently better or worse than the other. It's just that
it suits mine you know, one suits my needs and
one suits sers. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's it all comes
down to the stuff that matters to the individual. Um.
And in the end, I think it's it's uh, most
people sort of go for the mix of things. Well,
I want this part to just work, but the rest
(39:56):
of it I want to be able to fool around with.
And I think that's another one of the appeals of Windows.
It's it's sort of that middle ground. Um. You know, like,
like I said, we all own the various devices, and
we all see the value and and the limitations of
each system. Um. I think I think it really you know,
if if, however you're going about it, if you're dedicated
(40:16):
to making the best possible product or service that you
that you possibly can, whether it's as a member of
the community of the open source world, or if it's
you know, a closed system, I think that is what's
most important to me. The whole open versus closed is
just a general philosophy that guides your your development process.
It's not something that you know, I should definitely be
(40:39):
you know, uh endorsed or or or scorned. Well, it
frustrates me listening to people talk about it and seeing
comments online from people who are so devoted to one
side or the other that they will scream and call
names and use profanity to definite side and going. But
I mean, I see, I see arguments for both sides,
(40:59):
and yeah, I think there are valid points for both ye.
And it's it is a dangerous thing because once you
get once you become a fan of a certain way
of doing things, then it almost feels like if someone
else praises a different way of doing it, that it's
somehow an Yeah, it's an attack against what you like,
which isn't necessarily the case. It's yeah, no, it's definitely
not fair. But it does happen all the time. I
(41:20):
see it all the time where someone will praise one
system and someone else takes that as hey, you're saying
that the system I like sucks, And no, that's not
what I said. I just said that this system was
also good. I didn't even mention your system. Please don't
yell at me trolls. So if you want to know
more about that, listen to our podcast on how trolls
work East Jonathan Strickland in the operating system you like stinks? Right? Yeah, Okay, Well,
(41:47):
that that's a good summary. This was fun. I don't
know that will necessarily do any more debates, but this
was we just decided, like I said off the top
of the bat, yeah, maybe we'll do another one where
we'll do a very specific debate and how to pick
two different things that that clearly have a divider between them.
In fact, we get a third person in here. We
(42:08):
could do the Xbox versus PlayStation versus Nintendo throwdown, which
would be a blast. We have one person just crying
in the corner and say alright, so guys, if you
have any suggestions for future debates or other podcast let's know,
let's go on Facebook or Twitter. Are handled. There is
tech stuff hs W and Chris and I will talk
(42:30):
to you again really soon. This episode of tech Stuff
is brought to you by Hover dot com. However his
domain name registration and management. That's simple. Upgrade to a
premium domain and trade in your old clunkers. Visit hub
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(42:51):
reinvented two thousand twelve camera. It's ready, are you
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