October 22, 2025 • 21 mins
Tessa Thompson & Nia DaCosta Talk Power, Perception & the Price of Freedom in Hollywood
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Tessa tops India, the constant in the building in very
high spirits. Yes, yes, tell everybody. Why, oh look at
the book.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
He made this amazing film called Heda and Tessa's the
lead and we have the best time and now we're here,
which is crazy, which is probably true.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
The two of you have this is not new, like
putting out a project, working so long on it, then
releasing it as your baby out to the world and
then doing press. But this, I feel like is different
for you guys, Yes or no. It doesn't all become
like tell me, I think it is.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
I think it is different because you know, we made
Nia's first film together ten years ago.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Wow, it's been ten years and ten years is it
hasn't it?
Speaker 5 (00:53):
I'm so bad at eight.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
I stop saying ten years.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Need to it's close to ten.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Yeah, it's close enough, I guess. But yeah, yeah, that
was a very different experience.
Speaker 4 (01:05):
Very different experience. And then you know us reteeming now
making this thing together. It does feel it does feel different.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Take me back and just tell the story. Tell that
story of these two women eight years ago, not ten
years ago or eight years ago, deciding to do that
first project, like.
Speaker 5 (01:21):
Well, that was actually ten years ago.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
So that was so she was right.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
I'm right for once. I'm right. I never write about dates.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
So because I always wonder this for somebody it was
your first film, Yeah, this was my first film. Yeah yeah,
So I always wonder that, like, when somebody's going out
to do their first film, how do you get people
that buy into she is the one and I am
in and you are already working and I and you know, she's.
Speaker 5 (01:44):
A big part of that.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
I mean we met at the Sundance Director's Lab ten
years ago and basically Sundance the institute shepherds independent film
and independent filmmakers and take it. Accept into that program
is a big sort of vote of confidence and it's
a big, big spotlight on you. So me and the
project had a great, big spotlight on us and that
was really great. But then has to agree to be
(02:05):
in it, and she was blowing the funk up.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Oh no, it's okay, it's allowed. We'll beat it, but
it's still totally allowed. We need a bet button here.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
With my mouth, but be free be it was blowing
up and and that really helped a lot. You know,
she was like instrumental in me getting the money to
get the movie made.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
How amazing is that though, because you know it always
takes like those early believers before you're approven. I mean,
I know you already had some eye both on you
and it was and there was a belief in your
talent at that point. But for somebody to like you know,
those moments are important that I would imagine they bond
you kind of life, right.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
Yeah, yeah, completely. And she she asked me the third
day we were there together, she said, when I make
this movie, will you make it with me? She didn't
say if, she said when, which was monumental.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Manifesto, right, honestly, you got to believe it's gonna get done.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Yeah, amazing. And now here we are all these year
years later, and so how are we back in this.
Speaker 5 (03:02):
Oh that's so crazy. Actually, well ten years.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
Ten years, ten years later, and now you have blown
the up.
Speaker 5 (03:11):
Okay, no, yeah, some things happened you career years.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Give us give us the fast forward reel both of
your lives in the past, Like what have been your
career highlights in the past ten years? To you if
you're looking at your reel like you're sizzle reel.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
I mean I went from that to top Boy, which
is super fun candy Man in the Marvels, and you'd
already done a Marble Cinematic Universe film.
Speaker 5 (03:33):
So I was like, yeah, you did throw Rock.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
I was already in that.
Speaker 5 (03:36):
You already met no.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
No, no no in the past ten years, in the past.
Speaker 4 (03:40):
Ten years, So I did that. See, I'm really bad
at the.
Speaker 5 (03:42):
Time we got Actually it's really crazy. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
So what Tessa was doing was I remember after we
met you, your White People came out that summer, Yes,
and then you had shot Creator Creed came out that November,
and then you shot four and then you did.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
Think Now you watch this evolution like holy Ship.
Speaker 5 (04:02):
I was a plus one to a lot of events
in that period.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
Like, hi, guys, that's true. Actually around with me and
you have You've been the first a lot of things.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Oh yeah, I don't praise you were the first.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
Let's do it.
Speaker 5 (04:17):
Let's do it. Black woman with the number one film
in the America.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
Yeah, okay, then you were the first.
Speaker 5 (04:25):
Black woman to make a Marvel film.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
Okay, talking talking ship.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yeah, uh, black women filmmaker of all time. And I'm
from I'm Jamaican American.
Speaker 5 (04:40):
So there you go. And that's that's the one that
my family is like, that's the most important.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Thing we've given you in the house you.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Come from, Like Jamaican music.
Speaker 5 (04:54):
My mom. Yeah, my mom was in a Rega girl
group called whirl Girl.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
They were the first artist to sing the theme song
for Cool Runnings.
Speaker 5 (05:02):
Okay, that's true.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
I mean today in this little crew right here.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Character in the Marbles and Universe, Hello, the first black
woman in the Marbles and Medic Universe as a lead
I believe who was black?
Speaker 3 (05:20):
And Okay, yeah, there's probably more more. I'm sure there's
some things with Creed too that were I felt like
they were first.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
There probably is.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Yeah, I don't know what that when when I saw
you on the screen that first Creed you, I mean
I'd seen you in other things, but I thought, oh,
she must originally be from Philly. This must be a
real Philly girl. Like you really pulled that off. Thank
you so much, such an authentic way.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
Thank you. I had so much fun. I would go
to barbershops and the hair salons and nail salons, and
I've just like really immersed myself in Philly culture and
just hung out real tough. It's so and those films
just have an incredible legacy. I remember walking around with
Sly and someone being like, yo's lie, you forgot about
Philly Mann And he's like, I'm not even from Philadelphia,
but when you make those films, you feel like you
(06:13):
are because the community really invites you in and it
means so much to them and it meant so much
us to.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
It was so it was so amazing how they reimagine
that moment to the return of Rocky, but in this
way with these characters, and it didn't feel it felt authentic.
Speaker 5 (06:26):
Yeah, I just.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Remember hearing Meek Mill music like it felt. And I
didn't really know much about Ryan at that point. I mean,
I knew a fruit bill, but I didn't realize how
important the detail cultural detail, yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
And specificity, and Ryan's big on that. And it's a
similar thing the excitement that I feel around Heada that
I felt with creating a Way, because I think, if
you're going to take anything that's beloved by fans and
you should reinterpret it in a way that feels really
personal to you. For me, there's no other way to
do that, and I think that's when he has done
so brilliantly with Heada for us.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
How do you even begin that process, like is there,
I don't know. I know you have all the accolades already,
but now you're taking something that's like, you know, it's
a thing already.
Speaker 4 (07:09):
You know, first black woman to do a reinterpretation of
Heada Gabler.
Speaker 5 (07:15):
We'll fact check that too.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
No, I mean, honest, I'm pretty sure that I.
Speaker 5 (07:21):
Might be the first black head of on screen on screen.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
Let's make sure that's true.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
I mean, we're gonna do so much fact checking's be
really exciting. But I think, like for me, it was
about being brave, you know, it was about to think,
this is what I see, this is how I felt
when I when I read the original. I want black
women to be in the films that I make and
in the center of the stories I make, so it
does't gonna be black.
Speaker 5 (07:44):
Tessa is gonna be Heada, you know.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
And then some other changes came, like the time period,
the location, one of the characters is a man in
the play, a woman in in the movie, and then
that just made everyone gay basically, so then it was
just super gay as well.
Speaker 5 (07:59):
You know.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
It was just about like following what I thought made sense,
and then what came out was this beautiful, unique thing.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Wow, Wow, what makes you make those decisions? Like what
is the why? Like is it representation? Is it just
wanting to tell a different story or keep it fresh
different story?
Speaker 2 (08:16):
I think, you know, like I try not to be
didactic when it comes to representation and diversity and film.
I really, you know, I'm not like you know, color
blank casting, you know, or I'm not like you know,
I want this to be about the struggles of being
a black person. I'm like, I want black people to
be here in these stories and then represent our lives
as the full human beings that we are, as opposed
to trying to like teach people something about our experience.
(08:38):
I want them to just be inside of our experience.
And so, you know, whether you're a sort of a
very vulnerable, very vicious housewife in the nineteen fifties, like
like an Heda or you know, a singer in Philly,
I think it's important that we keep keep just like
letting people in.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
And then the decision to make the character female instead
of male also same thing, just kind of wanting to.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Do well that was because in the play, I love
the play and I love him in the play, but
he's a bit whiny.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
You know, I don't know all the way you know
my theater, I don't.
Speaker 5 (09:10):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
I don't know the whole story of the play.
Speaker 5 (09:14):
So he says, what's great it has to Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
What's great is that your version will be what my
reference is.
Speaker 5 (09:20):
I love.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
I love. I love that for us.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
I mean, I know the story, but I don't you know,
you know, but no, it's not like something I you know,
I have seen or go back and research.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
And they haven't really put it on in New York
in a while, actually hasn't, and there hasn't really been
a definitive film version. I would say the way they're like,
you know, they're certain well okay, in my opinion, there
has not been a definitive film version. But the switch,
(09:50):
like in the play, his name is I Alert, I
Alert loved Borg and he's he's he's super depressed.
Speaker 5 (09:55):
He's an alcoholic.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
And it's because where he says, it's because you know,
he's so brilliant, but no one pays attention to him.
No one was to his brilliance. And this book he's written,
it's going to be undeniable. And I'm like, bro, what
are you talking about? Like everyone knows you're brilliant, but
if you're a woman, actually I believe you when you
say I'm a brilliant person, and no one listens to
me because I'm a woman, Like I have this these
things to say, and no one will give me to
(10:16):
the time of day because I'm a woman.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
And that good.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
That struggle is real, and that struggle that would push
you to depression and then self healing or self.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
Soothing with I love you call self feeling.
Speaker 5 (10:27):
I love the self heal with alcohol work myself.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Exactly, yes, but but yeah, and so I was like,
that makes no sense to me. And so that was
the first thing, Like I necessarily mean to make a
movie with three quirrelmen at the center. But that's what
happened after I made the switch. And and similar to
like you know, when someone making a character who's canonically
white black, it's like I'm not trying to push anything.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
I just you're not trying to be.
Speaker 5 (10:59):
Out yeah, or like you.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Know, it's just oh no, I want we're real, we're here,
we love our lives, and like, let me invite you
into a type of experience. And you know, I like
black black women who behave badly and that's absolutely what
how exciting?
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Yeah, yeah, so how badly are you behaving me?
Speaker 4 (11:19):
Yeah? Oh I'm on my best behavior today. But in
the film, it's a she's a festive lady. She's a
festive lady, and she likes to sometimes move people around
sort of you know, like puppets. Yeah, a little bit, a.
Speaker 5 (11:36):
Little bit where they go place.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
Yeah, and Nia sort of brilliantly says, I've had that
she's someone that wants to see people's animals come out. Yeah.
I think she She really does feel like a little
chaos is good for the gathering. Who doesn't like a
little chaos.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Ending on the day?
Speaker 5 (11:53):
Yes, yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, they have the energy.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
For it, if you have the energy exactly.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
Honestly, there's a tremendous amount of internal chaos that's happening
inside of her. And the truth is typically when we
have unchecked internal chaos, we tend to cause it.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
You know what, does the rest of the cast look like?
Speaker 4 (12:15):
Gorgeous?
Speaker 5 (12:15):
Gorgeous.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
Another change than Nia made in this adaptation that gets
talked about a little less is bufically looking.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
You've had good looking co stars?
Speaker 4 (12:24):
Yeah, it's my writer. No, I do have a great
looking costar and this his name is Tom Bateman and
Nicholas Pinnock. I actually have a look everyone is great
looking image in Poots. It's a gorgeous and my gorgeous
co star Nina Haas. But one of the changes that
Nia made was also making sure that everyone was attractive,
(12:44):
because that's not always the case and had a gabbler.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Right, it's also really.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
But actually in particular there was actually a character for
which the way they looked became something that we talked about.
Speaker 5 (12:56):
Like her husband in the play is like funny duddy
little you.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
Know, only they make him like desperately unattractive, yeah, you know,
and I've seen productions where he's like blowing his nose
a lot, like they try to make him not needlessly unsexy.
And I just remember we were thinking maybe we would
do a version of that, or modernized version but older
than me. You know, a pairing that you see two
people together and you go one thing is not like
the other. And then I remember one day Nia called
(13:23):
me and said, what if what if he's hot?
Speaker 5 (13:27):
And I was like, whoa a hot man?
Speaker 3 (13:32):
What do we think of when we say hot? Like,
what is what is your definition of?
Speaker 4 (13:35):
Well?
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Like I said, and the context of this was like,
what if instead of it being like, oh, it's so
obvious that you know she wouldn't want to be with
him or whatever, what if we gave her like someone
who actually is like attractive and maybe charmless, but not
like the worst person ever.
Speaker 5 (13:50):
And it's really you see a version where they.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Could maybe yeah, they could find something.
Speaker 4 (13:55):
And their marriage is one I think of ambition. They
both are ambitious, and they're both kind of transactional, and
I think a part of that transaction is the way
that they can move through space, and a part of
that is the way that they look.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
How fun is it to do a project like this
after all this year's of friendship in this work and
watching each other like, I don't know, just evolve in
your career, Like yeah, do you show up on set
with like a there has to be some like I
don't know, just an excitement appreciate it? Oh yeah, yeah, silly.
Speaker 5 (14:25):
I think it's less. I mean, I know you take serious,
but it's just like you know, but but but a comfort,
there's probably a comfort fair comforting. Yeah, yeah, I feel
really safe.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Yeah, and I know that when if testas on testas
testas my number one on the call sheet. I feel
I don't have to worry about a lot number one.
Speaker 5 (14:42):
It felt it felt like it's appropriate.
Speaker 4 (14:45):
We've had a couple of moments though. Over interestingly, I
think we were so focused on making the thing while
we were making it that there wasn't always a lot
of space to take in that we were doing this
incredible thing. Yeah, And I think recently now when you
ask like, what's it like? Is it is this like
all of the other press tours? It isn't. Because I
feel like we have moments where we're looking at each other,
(15:09):
we're talking about it together, and it hits us that wow,
we we got to make this thing, and we've gotten
to bear witness to each other over all these years,
and you know, it's it's it's emotional.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
It's like trying not to do like the Wicked Press
where you know, but.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
I could get out of you today a little bit
when I feel like somebody could get choked up because
how did you not?
Speaker 5 (15:36):
I mean do not.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
It's really a beautiful story and it is a testament
to how important it is to have support and to
you know, the things we say. But it's different to
actually see it in action.
Speaker 4 (15:50):
Yeah. I was thinking about that the other day because
someone asked me. You know, that question that we get
asked a lot is like what advice would you give
to your younger self? And I always struggle to answer
that question, and the other day if the answer felt
very clear to me, which is just seek out community,
you know, in the way like Nia is someone that
(16:12):
I feel like I can call and lean on and
ask for advice related not just to my career but
my but my life in a real way. And when
I think about the last ten years not having that
in her, and you know, our friendship became sort of
a blueprint of what I look for. And now I feel.
Speaker 5 (16:31):
Really like I have a community of people.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
But also here it goes here, it goes here, it
goes It's kind of.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
That also make things and are and are you know,
trying to do big things in the world, but also
just want to lift each other up. And she has
been a really has been like a continuous example of
of what that is.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
And you guys, I cannot say enough of the same.
It's been a very because it's also hard. This industry
is really hard. And ma'am, why did you like that?
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Because most people don't know the hell hard.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
And it's just the work is so personal, I mean,
I mean similar for you, like this is your name
on the show, it's about you, and when people talk
about the show, it's talking about you, and it's like
your heart, you know. And it can be a rough ride,
and I think when you have someone who's going through
their own ride and also as kind and generous and
(17:39):
truly selfless as Testa is, it's like and then also
you're like, oh, you're an amazing artist, so we can
actually work together.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
I was curious about that. I was curious about the
actual work, like like, what is what is that experience
like watching her work, because.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
It's really fun. I mean it's I mean, especially if
there was a day it's in the movie actually where
you did this thing, it was like kind of felt
like so new and surprising, and then after the taking
went oh that surprised me, and.
Speaker 5 (18:06):
I said, oh, that's that's great. I love that.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
I love those moments. And so watching it's like a
live Yeah, it's alive exactly, yeah, and that's and that's
what's really fun. But then also I think we had
to find a roadmap because we we we.
Speaker 5 (18:17):
Made a movie together.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Then we just were friends for years and years and
then we're like, oh, now we're Yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:22):
We both grew and changed in our approach to the work.
We gained confidence, and I think sometimes when you have
a long friendship, you're kind of like, oh, I know
what that is, and you have to continuously be relearning
who the person is as they as they grow and change.
And so I think when we stepped onto that set,
we were like, oh, nice to meet you, Like, this
(18:44):
is who I am today working on this thing. And
also I'm I'm now a new person having made this film.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
What do you think makes her great as a director?
Speaker 5 (18:54):
Like, what do you really try?
Speaker 3 (18:55):
And seriously, because the work is different than your friendship
and your support, which is also beautiful, but just as
as an art for I'm like, you know, you both
have high accolades and people, yeah you know, respect, your
talents equal, and I just wonder from your perspectives of
the other, what what makes the other great. I'm not
trying to make a cry.
Speaker 5 (19:15):
I just I just want to be inside.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
I just want to be inside a little bit and
see what she sees.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
I think Heta and what you see on film is
a really prime example of what not just Nia's personal vision,
and she's such a brilliant writer and creator and and
you know, to sort of make a world full stop.
But a part of I think the gift of a
really brilliant director is to hire a bunch of people
(19:42):
that are excellent at their jobs and set them free
to do it and get out of their way actually
and help and help them do it by empowering them.
And I feel like I saw that with Nia time
and time again, where she'll come to the table with
an idea and someone might present her with another one,
and she'll yeah, that's better, let's do this one. And
(20:03):
just like she's probably.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
Gets in the way for some people, which she's.
Speaker 4 (20:06):
So good at doing that. And so what you see
is truly like such excellence on screen in the costume design,
in the in the production design, in this cinematography, and
it is like it is the her and her brilliance
and also her allowing the brilliance of the people around
(20:26):
her to really really shine. And that is such a
true gift. It really is a true gift.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
I am so sold and can't wait to see them.
I am so sold. What do you hope it lands
in the world? What's your hope for your baby?
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Like, oh man, I hope people see it. It's beautiful.
The performances are great, everything's really exciting. I just want
people to to watch it and also just start to
think about their own lives and their own choices and
and and what bits of heada they can relate to
what's in them beautiful.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
I honestly could sit uh, I could sit with each
of you for an hour and.
Speaker 4 (20:58):
Been to the great happened to the greatness because it
happened to her greatness. She's the first black woman to
direct her twenty years later movie.
Speaker 5 (21:09):
Worrious is a true true I mean it's true.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
I mean, well there it is. Well there it is,
ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much. We have to
do it separate and congrats toble to you. I can't
wait to see the movie coming tops.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
It needs as anybody teams on the radio.
Speaker 4 (21:27):
Baby
Tessa tops India, the constant in the building in very
high spirits. Yes, yes, tell everybody. Why, oh look at
the book.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
He made this amazing film called Heda and Tessa's the
lead and we have the best time and now we're here,
which is crazy, which is probably true.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
The two of you have this is not new, like
putting out a project, working so long on it, then
releasing it as your baby out to the world and
then doing press. But this, I feel like is different
for you guys, Yes or no. It doesn't all become
like tell me, I think it is.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
I think it is different because you know, we made
Nia's first film together ten years ago.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Wow, it's been ten years and ten years is it
hasn't it?
Speaker 5 (00:53):
I'm so bad at eight.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
I stop saying ten years.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Need to it's close to ten.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Yeah, it's close enough, I guess. But yeah, yeah, that
was a very different experience.
Speaker 4 (01:05):
Very different experience. And then you know us reteeming now
making this thing together. It does feel it does feel different.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Take me back and just tell the story. Tell that
story of these two women eight years ago, not ten
years ago or eight years ago, deciding to do that
first project, like.
Speaker 5 (01:21):
Well, that was actually ten years ago.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
So that was so she was right.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
I'm right for once. I'm right. I never write about dates.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
So because I always wonder this for somebody it was
your first film, Yeah, this was my first film. Yeah yeah,
So I always wonder that, like, when somebody's going out
to do their first film, how do you get people
that buy into she is the one and I am
in and you are already working and I and you know, she's.
Speaker 5 (01:44):
A big part of that.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
I mean we met at the Sundance Director's Lab ten
years ago and basically Sundance the institute shepherds independent film
and independent filmmakers and take it. Accept into that program
is a big sort of vote of confidence and it's
a big, big spotlight on you. So me and the
project had a great, big spotlight on us and that
was really great. But then has to agree to be
(02:05):
in it, and she was blowing the funk up.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Oh no, it's okay, it's allowed. We'll beat it, but
it's still totally allowed. We need a bet button here.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
With my mouth, but be free be it was blowing
up and and that really helped a lot. You know,
she was like instrumental in me getting the money to
get the movie made.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
How amazing is that though, because you know it always
takes like those early believers before you're approven. I mean,
I know you already had some eye both on you
and it was and there was a belief in your
talent at that point. But for somebody to like you know,
those moments are important that I would imagine they bond
you kind of life, right.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
Yeah, yeah, completely. And she she asked me the third
day we were there together, she said, when I make
this movie, will you make it with me? She didn't
say if, she said when, which was monumental.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Manifesto, right, honestly, you got to believe it's gonna get done.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Yeah, amazing. And now here we are all these year
years later, and so how are we back in this.
Speaker 5 (03:02):
Oh that's so crazy. Actually, well ten years.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
Ten years, ten years later, and now you have blown
the up.
Speaker 5 (03:11):
Okay, no, yeah, some things happened you career years.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Give us give us the fast forward reel both of
your lives in the past, Like what have been your
career highlights in the past ten years? To you if
you're looking at your reel like you're sizzle reel.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
I mean I went from that to top Boy, which
is super fun candy Man in the Marvels, and you'd
already done a Marble Cinematic Universe film.
Speaker 5 (03:33):
So I was like, yeah, you did throw Rock.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
I was already in that.
Speaker 5 (03:36):
You already met no.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
No, no no in the past ten years, in the past.
Speaker 4 (03:40):
Ten years, So I did that. See, I'm really bad
at the.
Speaker 5 (03:42):
Time we got Actually it's really crazy. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
So what Tessa was doing was I remember after we
met you, your White People came out that summer, Yes,
and then you had shot Creator Creed came out that November,
and then you shot four and then you did.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
Think Now you watch this evolution like holy Ship.
Speaker 5 (04:02):
I was a plus one to a lot of events
in that period.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
Like, hi, guys, that's true. Actually around with me and
you have You've been the first a lot of things.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Oh yeah, I don't praise you were the first.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
Let's do it.
Speaker 5 (04:17):
Let's do it. Black woman with the number one film
in the America.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
Yeah, okay, then you were the first.
Speaker 5 (04:25):
Black woman to make a Marvel film.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
Okay, talking talking ship.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yeah, uh, black women filmmaker of all time. And I'm
from I'm Jamaican American.
Speaker 5 (04:40):
So there you go. And that's that's the one that
my family is like, that's the most important.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Thing we've given you in the house you.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Come from, Like Jamaican music.
Speaker 5 (04:54):
My mom. Yeah, my mom was in a Rega girl
group called whirl Girl.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
They were the first artist to sing the theme song
for Cool Runnings.
Speaker 5 (05:02):
Okay, that's true.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
I mean today in this little crew right here.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Character in the Marbles and Universe, Hello, the first black
woman in the Marbles and Medic Universe as a lead
I believe who was black?
Speaker 3 (05:20):
And Okay, yeah, there's probably more more. I'm sure there's
some things with Creed too that were I felt like
they were first.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
There probably is.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Yeah, I don't know what that when when I saw
you on the screen that first Creed you, I mean
I'd seen you in other things, but I thought, oh,
she must originally be from Philly. This must be a
real Philly girl. Like you really pulled that off. Thank
you so much, such an authentic way.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
Thank you. I had so much fun. I would go
to barbershops and the hair salons and nail salons, and
I've just like really immersed myself in Philly culture and
just hung out real tough. It's so and those films
just have an incredible legacy. I remember walking around with
Sly and someone being like, yo's lie, you forgot about
Philly Mann And he's like, I'm not even from Philadelphia,
but when you make those films, you feel like you
(06:13):
are because the community really invites you in and it
means so much to them and it meant so much
us to.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
It was so it was so amazing how they reimagine
that moment to the return of Rocky, but in this
way with these characters, and it didn't feel it felt authentic.
Speaker 5 (06:26):
Yeah, I just.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Remember hearing Meek Mill music like it felt. And I
didn't really know much about Ryan at that point. I mean,
I knew a fruit bill, but I didn't realize how
important the detail cultural detail, yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
And specificity, and Ryan's big on that. And it's a
similar thing the excitement that I feel around Heada that
I felt with creating a Way, because I think, if
you're going to take anything that's beloved by fans and
you should reinterpret it in a way that feels really
personal to you. For me, there's no other way to
do that, and I think that's when he has done
so brilliantly with Heada for us.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
How do you even begin that process, like is there,
I don't know. I know you have all the accolades already,
but now you're taking something that's like, you know, it's
a thing already.
Speaker 4 (07:09):
You know, first black woman to do a reinterpretation of
Heada Gabler.
Speaker 5 (07:15):
We'll fact check that too.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
No, I mean, honest, I'm pretty sure that I.
Speaker 5 (07:21):
Might be the first black head of on screen on screen.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
Let's make sure that's true.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
I mean, we're gonna do so much fact checking's be
really exciting. But I think, like for me, it was
about being brave, you know, it was about to think,
this is what I see, this is how I felt
when I when I read the original. I want black
women to be in the films that I make and
in the center of the stories I make, so it
does't gonna be black.
Speaker 5 (07:44):
Tessa is gonna be Heada, you know.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
And then some other changes came, like the time period,
the location, one of the characters is a man in
the play, a woman in in the movie, and then
that just made everyone gay basically, so then it was
just super gay as well.
Speaker 5 (07:59):
You know.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
It was just about like following what I thought made sense,
and then what came out was this beautiful, unique thing.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Wow, Wow, what makes you make those decisions? Like what
is the why? Like is it representation? Is it just
wanting to tell a different story or keep it fresh
different story?
Speaker 2 (08:16):
I think, you know, like I try not to be
didactic when it comes to representation and diversity and film.
I really, you know, I'm not like you know, color
blank casting, you know, or I'm not like you know,
I want this to be about the struggles of being
a black person. I'm like, I want black people to
be here in these stories and then represent our lives
as the full human beings that we are, as opposed
to trying to like teach people something about our experience.
(08:38):
I want them to just be inside of our experience.
And so, you know, whether you're a sort of a
very vulnerable, very vicious housewife in the nineteen fifties, like
like an Heda or you know, a singer in Philly,
I think it's important that we keep keep just like
letting people in.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
And then the decision to make the character female instead
of male also same thing, just kind of wanting to.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Do well that was because in the play, I love
the play and I love him in the play, but
he's a bit whiny.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
You know, I don't know all the way you know
my theater, I don't.
Speaker 5 (09:10):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
I don't know the whole story of the play.
Speaker 5 (09:14):
So he says, what's great it has to Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
What's great is that your version will be what my
reference is.
Speaker 5 (09:20):
I love.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
I love. I love that for us.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
I mean, I know the story, but I don't you know,
you know, but no, it's not like something I you know,
I have seen or go back and research.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
And they haven't really put it on in New York
in a while, actually hasn't, and there hasn't really been
a definitive film version. I would say the way they're like,
you know, they're certain well okay, in my opinion, there
has not been a definitive film version. But the switch,
(09:50):
like in the play, his name is I Alert, I
Alert loved Borg and he's he's he's super depressed.
Speaker 5 (09:55):
He's an alcoholic.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
And it's because where he says, it's because you know,
he's so brilliant, but no one pays attention to him.
No one was to his brilliance. And this book he's written,
it's going to be undeniable. And I'm like, bro, what
are you talking about? Like everyone knows you're brilliant, but
if you're a woman, actually I believe you when you
say I'm a brilliant person, and no one listens to
me because I'm a woman, Like I have this these
things to say, and no one will give me to
(10:16):
the time of day because I'm a woman.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
And that good.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
That struggle is real, and that struggle that would push
you to depression and then self healing or self.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
Soothing with I love you call self feeling.
Speaker 5 (10:27):
I love the self heal with alcohol work myself.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Exactly, yes, but but yeah, and so I was like,
that makes no sense to me. And so that was
the first thing, Like I necessarily mean to make a
movie with three quirrelmen at the center. But that's what
happened after I made the switch. And and similar to
like you know, when someone making a character who's canonically
white black, it's like I'm not trying to push anything.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
I just you're not trying to be.
Speaker 5 (10:59):
Out yeah, or like you.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Know, it's just oh no, I want we're real, we're here,
we love our lives, and like, let me invite you
into a type of experience. And you know, I like
black black women who behave badly and that's absolutely what
how exciting?
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Yeah, yeah, so how badly are you behaving me?
Speaker 4 (11:19):
Yeah? Oh I'm on my best behavior today. But in
the film, it's a she's a festive lady. She's a
festive lady, and she likes to sometimes move people around
sort of you know, like puppets. Yeah, a little bit, a.
Speaker 5 (11:36):
Little bit where they go place.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
Yeah, and Nia sort of brilliantly says, I've had that
she's someone that wants to see people's animals come out. Yeah.
I think she She really does feel like a little
chaos is good for the gathering. Who doesn't like a
little chaos.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Ending on the day?
Speaker 5 (11:53):
Yes, yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, they have the energy.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
For it, if you have the energy exactly.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
Honestly, there's a tremendous amount of internal chaos that's happening
inside of her. And the truth is typically when we
have unchecked internal chaos, we tend to cause it.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
You know what, does the rest of the cast look like?
Speaker 4 (12:15):
Gorgeous?
Speaker 5 (12:15):
Gorgeous.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
Another change than Nia made in this adaptation that gets
talked about a little less is bufically looking.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
You've had good looking co stars?
Speaker 4 (12:24):
Yeah, it's my writer. No, I do have a great
looking costar and this his name is Tom Bateman and
Nicholas Pinnock. I actually have a look everyone is great
looking image in Poots. It's a gorgeous and my gorgeous
co star Nina Haas. But one of the changes that
Nia made was also making sure that everyone was attractive,
(12:44):
because that's not always the case and had a gabbler.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Right, it's also really.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
But actually in particular there was actually a character for
which the way they looked became something that we talked about.
Speaker 5 (12:56):
Like her husband in the play is like funny duddy
little you.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
Know, only they make him like desperately unattractive, yeah, you know,
and I've seen productions where he's like blowing his nose
a lot, like they try to make him not needlessly unsexy.
And I just remember we were thinking maybe we would
do a version of that, or modernized version but older
than me. You know, a pairing that you see two
people together and you go one thing is not like
the other. And then I remember one day Nia called
(13:23):
me and said, what if what if he's hot?
Speaker 5 (13:27):
And I was like, whoa a hot man?
Speaker 3 (13:32):
What do we think of when we say hot? Like,
what is what is your definition of?
Speaker 4 (13:35):
Well?
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Like I said, and the context of this was like,
what if instead of it being like, oh, it's so
obvious that you know she wouldn't want to be with
him or whatever, what if we gave her like someone
who actually is like attractive and maybe charmless, but not
like the worst person ever.
Speaker 5 (13:50):
And it's really you see a version where they.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Could maybe yeah, they could find something.
Speaker 4 (13:55):
And their marriage is one I think of ambition. They
both are ambitious, and they're both kind of transactional, and
I think a part of that transaction is the way
that they can move through space, and a part of
that is the way that they look.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
How fun is it to do a project like this
after all this year's of friendship in this work and
watching each other like, I don't know, just evolve in
your career, Like yeah, do you show up on set
with like a there has to be some like I
don't know, just an excitement appreciate it? Oh yeah, yeah, silly.
Speaker 5 (14:25):
I think it's less. I mean, I know you take serious,
but it's just like you know, but but but a comfort,
there's probably a comfort fair comforting. Yeah, yeah, I feel
really safe.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Yeah, and I know that when if testas on testas
testas my number one on the call sheet. I feel
I don't have to worry about a lot number one.
Speaker 5 (14:42):
It felt it felt like it's appropriate.
Speaker 4 (14:45):
We've had a couple of moments though. Over interestingly, I
think we were so focused on making the thing while
we were making it that there wasn't always a lot
of space to take in that we were doing this
incredible thing. Yeah, And I think recently now when you
ask like, what's it like? Is it is this like
all of the other press tours? It isn't. Because I
feel like we have moments where we're looking at each other,
(15:09):
we're talking about it together, and it hits us that wow,
we we got to make this thing, and we've gotten
to bear witness to each other over all these years,
and you know, it's it's it's emotional.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
It's like trying not to do like the Wicked Press
where you know, but.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
I could get out of you today a little bit
when I feel like somebody could get choked up because
how did you not?
Speaker 5 (15:36):
I mean do not.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
It's really a beautiful story and it is a testament
to how important it is to have support and to
you know, the things we say. But it's different to
actually see it in action.
Speaker 4 (15:50):
Yeah. I was thinking about that the other day because
someone asked me. You know, that question that we get
asked a lot is like what advice would you give
to your younger self? And I always struggle to answer
that question, and the other day if the answer felt
very clear to me, which is just seek out community,
you know, in the way like Nia is someone that
(16:12):
I feel like I can call and lean on and
ask for advice related not just to my career but
my but my life in a real way. And when
I think about the last ten years not having that
in her, and you know, our friendship became sort of
a blueprint of what I look for. And now I feel.
Speaker 5 (16:31):
Really like I have a community of people.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
But also here it goes here, it goes here, it
goes It's kind of.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
That also make things and are and are you know,
trying to do big things in the world, but also
just want to lift each other up. And she has
been a really has been like a continuous example of
of what that is.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
And you guys, I cannot say enough of the same.
It's been a very because it's also hard. This industry
is really hard. And ma'am, why did you like that?
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Because most people don't know the hell hard.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
And it's just the work is so personal, I mean,
I mean similar for you, like this is your name
on the show, it's about you, and when people talk
about the show, it's talking about you, and it's like
your heart, you know. And it can be a rough ride,
and I think when you have someone who's going through
their own ride and also as kind and generous and
(17:39):
truly selfless as Testa is, it's like and then also
you're like, oh, you're an amazing artist, so we can
actually work together.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
I was curious about that. I was curious about the
actual work, like like, what is what is that experience
like watching her work, because.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
It's really fun. I mean it's I mean, especially if
there was a day it's in the movie actually where
you did this thing, it was like kind of felt
like so new and surprising, and then after the taking
went oh that surprised me, and.
Speaker 5 (18:06):
I said, oh, that's that's great. I love that.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
I love those moments. And so watching it's like a
live Yeah, it's alive exactly, yeah, and that's and that's
what's really fun. But then also I think we had
to find a roadmap because we we we.
Speaker 5 (18:17):
Made a movie together.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Then we just were friends for years and years and
then we're like, oh, now we're Yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:22):
We both grew and changed in our approach to the work.
We gained confidence, and I think sometimes when you have
a long friendship, you're kind of like, oh, I know
what that is, and you have to continuously be relearning
who the person is as they as they grow and change.
And so I think when we stepped onto that set,
we were like, oh, nice to meet you, Like, this
(18:44):
is who I am today working on this thing. And
also I'm I'm now a new person having made this film.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
What do you think makes her great as a director?
Speaker 5 (18:54):
Like, what do you really try?
Speaker 3 (18:55):
And seriously, because the work is different than your friendship
and your support, which is also beautiful, but just as
as an art for I'm like, you know, you both
have high accolades and people, yeah you know, respect, your
talents equal, and I just wonder from your perspectives of
the other, what what makes the other great. I'm not
trying to make a cry.
Speaker 5 (19:15):
I just I just want to be inside.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
I just want to be inside a little bit and
see what she sees.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
I think Heta and what you see on film is
a really prime example of what not just Nia's personal vision,
and she's such a brilliant writer and creator and and
you know, to sort of make a world full stop.
But a part of I think the gift of a
really brilliant director is to hire a bunch of people
(19:42):
that are excellent at their jobs and set them free
to do it and get out of their way actually
and help and help them do it by empowering them.
And I feel like I saw that with Nia time
and time again, where she'll come to the table with
an idea and someone might present her with another one,
and she'll yeah, that's better, let's do this one. And
(20:03):
just like she's probably.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
Gets in the way for some people, which she's.
Speaker 4 (20:06):
So good at doing that. And so what you see
is truly like such excellence on screen in the costume design,
in the in the production design, in this cinematography, and
it is like it is the her and her brilliance
and also her allowing the brilliance of the people around
(20:26):
her to really really shine. And that is such a
true gift. It really is a true gift.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
I am so sold and can't wait to see them.
I am so sold. What do you hope it lands
in the world? What's your hope for your baby?
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Like, oh man, I hope people see it. It's beautiful.
The performances are great, everything's really exciting. I just want
people to to watch it and also just start to
think about their own lives and their own choices and
and and what bits of heada they can relate to
what's in them beautiful.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
I honestly could sit uh, I could sit with each
of you for an hour and.
Speaker 4 (20:58):
Been to the great happened to the greatness because it
happened to her greatness. She's the first black woman to
direct her twenty years later movie.
Speaker 5 (21:09):
Worrious is a true true I mean it's true.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
I mean, well there it is. Well there it is,
ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much. We have to
do it separate and congrats toble to you. I can't
wait to see the movie coming tops.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
It needs as anybody teams on the radio.
Speaker 4 (21:27):
Baby
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