S3 Ep6: So You Want to Learn About Unions

Host Randy Strobl talks with Grand Valley State University alumni Jaz Edwards, Jamie Bartkowicz, and Jim Taylor about their experiences with unions. Jaz explains how she joined IATSE Local 476 in Chicago, Jamie explains why she hasn’t joined a union, and Jim explains what it means to be on the Casual List for a union. 

This episode was recorded prior to the WGA and SAG-AFTRA strikes.

Jaz Edwards links: 
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaz-edwards-05997a176/

Jamie Bartkowicz links: 
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamie-bartkowicz/
https://www.theessentialartdepartment.com/
https://www.tead.blog/

Jim Taylor links: 
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jtaylor49505/
https://elephantav.com/
https://www.instagram.com/elephantav9529/
https://www.facebook.com/Elephantav/

Union resources:
https://iatse.net/
West Michigan: https://www.iatse26.org/

To learn about ways you can support GVSU film and video students:

• The Dirk Koning Memorial Film and Video Scholarship
• The Chuck Peterson Memorial Fellowship
• Morse-Cuppy Film, Video, Animation Study Abroad Endowed Scholarship
• GVSU F/V Alumni: https://www.facebook.com/groups/gvsufilmvideoalumni

Episode Transcript

Welcome to Alumni Live (00:03):
The Podcast.
These are conversations with grandvalley state university film and video
graduates about the industry, thefilm, video, major and alumni profiles.
Today we're talking all about unions.
We got some great guests today.
We got Jim Taylor in from West Michigan.
Hi, everybody.
We got Jaz Edwards from Chicago.

(00:23):
Hi, how's it going?
Jaz is a prop assistant,very excited about that.
And we got Jamie Bartkowicz from LA.
Hello.
All right, so, let's talk about unions.
Let's go around and talk about,which unions you're all in as
a great starting point here.
Jamie, what is your union situation?
So I'm actually not in a union, butI do work with unions on a daily

(00:44):
basis with my job and have had alot of experience working with the
different unions in Los Angeles.
I also teach on the side and a bigsubject that all my students also have,
similar to this podcast subject, ishow to join unions because they can
be very complicated and everything.
Yeah, we're going to definitelyneed to dig into all that.
Jaz, what can you tell us aboutyour experience with unions?
I'm a member of IATSE's LocalBranch 476 out of Chicago and

(01:07):
I joined just under a year ago.
It'll be a year in March.
I'm still very new to the whole unionworld and still kind of learning how
things go about it, but so far it's great.
Great.
Congratulations.
Thank you.
Jim, what can you tell us about yourexperience in unions over the years?
I guess you could call me a casuallist member for IATSE 26 here in Grand

(01:29):
Rapids and I've been doing that forgosh, it always seems like 2 or 3 years,
but it's coming up on 10 years now.
So, finally got the seniority to wherewe're getting some interesting calls now.
Whereas at the beginning, those ofyou that don't know, you're generally
doing the pushing boxes kind ofwork, at least in West Michigan.
Sure.
And I, as your host Randy Strobl, I amin the IBEW in Detroit doing broadcast

(01:53):
work for Detroit Public Television.
Let's start with, what is a union?
What is the difference between, nota union job, a union job what does
it mean to be a part of a union?
I would say that the easiest explanationof it is that it's all started when
entertainment workers wanted to gettogether and make sure that their working
conditions were safe, that their payswere acceptable, that everyone was on the

(02:16):
same page with everything and that theywere being treated right in their jobs.
Especially we know that a lot of jobsin entertainment can be dangerous.
They can be long hours,all these different things.
So, joining the union and whendifferent jobs and locals are unionized
basically just means that these areour working conditions and our terms.
That this group of tradespeople want to agree on and that

(02:38):
productions have to comply with.
You'll hear the termsbrothers and sisters a lot.
When talking about unions, andthat's kind of like the camaraderie
of it is that we are brothers andsisters in a union working together.
We're all on the same page.
We're all here to support eachother and fight for working rights.
Absolutely.
And Jim, you said you'remore of a casual member.
What do you see from that perspective?

(02:58):
What does the union meanto you in Grand Rapids?
Well, it's organized.
Any of major venues and moviesets and things like that in West
Michigan are generally organized.
It's the smaller venues, live music venuesand things like that that are non union.
And what I find is that, theunion really guarantees a
consistent wage base to work from.

(03:21):
The folks that are on what we call the 100list, which would be the folks that are
full time, union is their only gig, theycan make a somewhat middle class living.
The good and the bad, as far as Ican see it, the hard part is just
that the work is not always there.
In a Midwest town like Grand Rapids,you'll have several weeks where everyone's
working these crazy 90 hour weeksand then, a week or two where there's

(03:42):
just nothing and it seems like theschedule ends up coming out that way.
Everyone wants to do theirevents on the same date.
Sure.
Now Jaz, you just graduated fromGrand Valley pretty recently.
You're fresh out into the working world.
How did you decide to join up inChicago and what did your whole
transition into union life look like?
It all kind of happenedjust by coincidence.

(04:03):
It was not something I planned.
It was just, the opportunities werepresented and I was like, well, I have
no reason to not take them, so I did.
But I moved out to Chicago and Istarted as a Health and Safety
PA, which they're not part of anyunion, at least here in Chicago.
I think in LA, the PAs have a union there,but in Chicago, PAs don't have a union.
So, with that, you're typically makingabout minimum wage and if you're

(04:27):
on, a full time big budget show ormovie, they're kind of nice where
they guarantee you 12 hours of pay.
So, it's even if you don'twork the full 12 hours, they
still give you the 12 hours.
But you don't get the benefit ofunions, such as, you don't get the
health insurance that comes with that.
You don't get, like, the jobsecurity that comes with it.
Because with union projects,they say you have to hire union
people first before you can.

(04:49):
Hire out.
But when I got into the union, I wasworking on a show called Force, on
their first season, and I just was like,well, I don't wanna be a PA forever,
so let's see what else I can do.
I made friends with the people inthe props department, told them I
was interested and they ended uphaving a spot open up and they're
like, "We don't know anyone who'sfree to work that's in the union.
So we'll put you on the outof work list so that you can

(05:10):
come work a union position."
And then after about 30 days ofworking my prop master, he spoke to
the people who were in charge of, theboard of the union and was like, hey,
we should get her voted and sworn in.
That's really great thatthey took you in like that.
So in that answer, I'm hearingthat there's some things you have
to go through to join the union.
In your experience, whatare the ways to join?

(05:31):
Jim, how did you get into IATSE?
Well like I said, I'mon their casual list.
So I'm not technically a cardholder and there is two levels
as far as the unions goes.
There is the folks that are card holders.
They're paying the union dues every year.
They are part of the structure.
They get to be a voting member.
And then there's a whole ton ofpeople generally, and this differs

(05:51):
in some cities, you may go 30 daysand they'll invite you to join.
Some cities like New York,you might wait years before
you get an invitation to join.
In Grand Rapids, the most likelymethod to enter is asking the union
steward, "Hey, do you want me?"
There's a certain level of having toprove that you can make a full wage
in the union because the dues are, Idon't want to say somewhat expensive.

(06:13):
I think around here, they'reabout 500 dollars a year, and it
can come out to your paycheck.
But, you would just, go to theunion and say, "Hey, I'd like to
become a member" and they'll takeyou through the route to doing that.
Generally, it's going to a meeting andif you're well known enough, they would
give you an up and down vote as towhether or not they want you in the union.
There's very few people that don't getthe vote positively, but it does happen.

(06:33):
We have a couple of people that are stillon our casual list that have asked to
be members and they just don't want themas a voting member for whatever reason.
But for the most part in Grand Rapids,it might be a little easier than.
Say going to New York, youreally have to know a lot of
folks there to get into IATSE 1.
My own experience in Detroit is whenI started working for Detroit Public
Television when they hired me on the firstquestion they asked is, " Do you want to

(06:56):
join and be a member of the IBEW or not?"
So Jamie, I understand Californiais a little bit different.
Could you talk to us about what it'slike working in California where
unions are maybe a little bit stronger?
So first thing to know aboutunions in general, when we're
talking about this is that there'sdifferent divisions across the United
States and also across the world.
So each division might consist of multiplestates and they're going to have their own

(07:20):
set of rules and their own jurisdiction.
So Los Angeles in our district, forIATSE, if you're a union member,
you can't work on non-union shows.
That is the agreement you canonly work in union jobs within
your jurisdiction of your trade.
Not saying that peopledon't sneakily do it.
I have heard of people, Iwouldn't advertise that.

(07:42):
But you're not allowedto work on non-union.
And then similarly to what Jaz wassaying about getting into the union.
If you're a non-union, you can't work ona union show unless you have a permit.
And depending on your union,depending on the show, there's
multiple ways about getting that.
In general, to get a permit for the show,they have to go through everyone on the
roster for that position in the union.

(08:03):
And absolutely everyone has to turnit down before they'll move on to a
non-union person, which is a long list.
I would say, during the pandemic, inthe thick of it, when productions
were starting back up, there wasa lot of productions picking up
and there was a lot of work inLos Angeles and not enough people.
So I think a lot of people got their inon the union in certain unions, because

(08:24):
they were able to call the office andget on the list and then get a permit.
So a lot of people lucked out that way.
But in general, you kind of justhave to know a production that's
looking for a position, kind ofhow Jaz was saying that they didn't
have anyone and she was right there.
So that's how she got thatopportunity to come in.
That's the only way you can get on aunion production is if you have a permit.

(08:45):
It's a weird divide and a big question Ialways get from my students when I teach
is, "Well, how are you supposed to getinto the union if you're not allowed to
work on a union show, but they say youneed 30 union days to be in the union?"
And that is the trick of unions.
And just like anything, it is a network.
Some of the perks, like youmentioned, Jamie, are that, you
are on a list to get jobs, right?

(09:06):
So it sounds like that's,Jim, how you're getting jobs.
Let's talk a little bit about that.
So the union of course isprotective, but let's talk about
it also as away to get other jobs.
Jaz, how does the unionfunction as a network for you?
People told me in college, "Oh, it'sall about who you know," and then
I was like, well, maybe it's not.
And then I got out here and I was like,oh, it really is about who you know.
That's how I was able to getinto the union working in props.

(09:27):
So last season, I worked on TheBear and I didn't know the prop
master through that, like, at all.
But I was recommended to the prop masterbecause she had worked with another
prop master that I had worked with.
And he's like, "Hey, you shouldreach out to this person.
She's looking for on-set people."
And I was like, "Yeah, Idon't have any jobs lined up.
So sure.
Why not?"
A lot of it is through word of mouthbecause people who often branch out and

(09:49):
become their own prop masters themselvesare always connecting with the people
they worked with before and lookingfor help through people that they know.
But you do have that out of work list,which people typically go to that, but
not as often as they do looking throughpeople they know, but it's still great
to have your name on there because thenthey'll look through it if they need it.
They'll be like, "Oh, thisperson is available to work."
When I joined up in the IBEWabout a year ago I was all of

(10:11):
a sudden, on the list serve.
So I started getting text messagesfor things from people I didn't know.
All of a sudden I was getting a textmessage to work at an ABC game for the
University of Michigan football games.
Jim, in your experience, whatdoes that look like for you?
Is it, who you know?
Is it getting text messages?
How are you networking with the union?
Well, I think that the union,in just probably the last five

(10:33):
or six years, has really startedto try and take on technology.
There's an app now that's called CallSteward that shoots us all of our offers.
And I think the reason why GrandRapids might be a little different
than some of the bigger cities is that.
It's a lot more generalized here.
You'll get riggers that work in anarena that go out and also work on

(10:53):
movies, if they come through town.
I'm an audio technician.
I've been in there for 35 years.
And probably the reason why I haven'tbeen a union cardholder is just that most
of my own events and gigs have been selfinitiated or through my own companies,
but about eight years ago, I met up witha woman who I used to work with and she
said, "Why aren't you on the union list?
You would have a lotof seniority right now.

(11:14):
Even if you're not a cardholder, theystill respond to seniority on the list."
And so I went in and put myname in and I worked a couple
of concerts at the local arena.
And it was fun, but I wasn't using itfor much income where nowadays, it does
seem like I'm getting a lot more calls.
I've qualified.
They have a list of skills and you have toqualify either through testing or through

(11:34):
self knowledge and things like that.
Suddenly I can doslightly better rate jobs.
And so I always tell students, no matterwhat you do, go and get on their casual
list, even if you're not a card holder.
Get some seniority going because in 2or 3 years, you're going to get regular
calls where you may not get calls today.
And the other word of advice that Igenerally have for students is that
go and work everything because WestMichigan is so small compared to LA,

(11:56):
or Chicago, or New York, that, you'regoing to meet everyone that is in the
field that you're trying to get into.
And mostly Grand Valley students wantto get into the video side of things.
If you start working shows for theunion, you're going to be talking
to everyone that owns or is aproduction manager for video shoots
that are going on in West Michigan.
It just makes sense, to get outthere and get your name out there
and start interacting with people.

(12:18):
Even if you're only the junior personwho doesn't know anything that's pushing
a box into the room that somebody elseis then using the equipment out of.
Yeah.
and it'll make sure that you're gettinga decent wage for pushing that box.
This is for students.
So let's all think backto when we were students.
Jaz, earlier, you mentioned that youhad started, before you were in the
union, doing some minimum wage work.
I mean, I remember starting in anddoing even less than minimum wage

(12:41):
work, even no wage work, right?
It seems like, when you're a studentor a recent graduate, you're really
vulnerable to getting taken advantageof by producers who don't have funding
or people who realize that studentsare just eager and excited to work.
Sometimes, producers will think ofthat as payment rather than real money.
We're taking a short break totell you about the Dirk Koning

(13:02):
Memorial Film and Video scholarship.
Here's Gretchen Vinnedgeremembering Dirk Koning.
The Koning Scholarship enables studentsto get that kind of an education, to be
a good filmmaker, to be able to expresstheir voice and to continue Dirk's dream.
For more information, and todonate to the scholarship, visit
the link in the description.
Now, back to the show.

(13:24):
Jamie, Jaz, Jim, can you tellus some stories about what it
was like before joining unions?
What it's like out there?
And some of the protections that you mightsee as a young student who's vulnerable?
I think when you're young, and it's noteven just in the film and television
industry, that corporations and businesseswill try to take advantage of students
who are eager to get experience because,when you want to go out and get a job that

(13:46):
actually pays you well, they say, "Oh,you need so many years of experience", but
it's like, well, I just graduated college.
I can't do much.
And I think that if you're goingto hire even interns, experience
is great, but still, you haveto pay people for their time.
Experience isn't going to pay the bills.
And working in production out in Chicago,I've always been in a position where I've

(14:06):
been working on big budget, televisionshows So I've never had to worry about
getting paid less than minimum wage.
I've always gotten paid at leastthe minimum wage, which is,
especially if you're a big budgetshow, what you should be doing.
There's cases where you'rehelping out your friends.
I have a friend.
She's working on her first short film andthey're doing a fundraiser for it and they
didn't raise enough money to pay the castand crew, and she was like, "Would you

(14:29):
still be willing to do it without pay?"
And it's like, yeah, you're my friend.
I'm going to help you out and if Iever need help, I would hope that you
would help me out with a production.
So it's things like that, whereif everyone's trying to make art
with their friends and do theirthing and you may not get paid, but
you're still helping your friendsout, that's totally understandable.
But I think if you're working forproducers who have the money to
pay their people, they should bepaying their people for their time.

(14:52):
Jamie, the protections againststudents getting taken advantage
of, what do you say about that?
Yeah, I was definitely takingadvantage of as a student.
So I look back on that and I'm alwaystelling my students to know your worth.
And when you're first starting out, it'sokay to work on certain things for free.
Like Jaz was saying, if it's studentfilms or small independent films, I
definitely did that, but also, I wishI had set more boundaries with that

(15:14):
because I've worked on a few when Iwas in college or fresh out of college
that was like local independent films.
So they weren't student films but theyhad no budget and so I wasn't paid.
The things I was asked to do and theamount of work I was doing, I look
back and I was like, oh, I reallyshould have been like, " No," but
because I was a student, they knewthat I was just going to be like,
"Yeah, I'm here for the experience."

(15:34):
I have to build my resume.
I'm always saying , yes, if it's asmall project or it's something that
you're really passionate about, orit has really good opportunities for
you to learn and connect, like oneof them that I did work on, I got
to work close with the art director.
I was just hired on as a PAand I was always interested
in working in Art Department.
So, when I got to work with theArt Director, I felt like I learned
so much and they were allowingme to help them build things.

(15:56):
They were showing me their process andthat was really invaluable to me that,
yeah, I walked away from that projectwithout any money, but I learned a lot.
But I was also in a positionwhere I was working another job.
Everyone has a differentsituation financially and
what they're willing to do.
I would just be cautious.
And I totally, totally agree withit, as Jaz says, if it is a big
budget production, you should begetting at least minimum wage.

(16:18):
No one should be shortchanging you.
And I think it's really importantfor students to do their
research on what rates are intheir area for certain things.
Knowing what your rateis is very important.
That's a question that you're goingto be asked when someone hires you.
A lot of times they'll askyou "What's your day rate?"
And I remember not knowing whatmy day rate is and I probably
low balled myself a lot.

(16:40):
And so just doing research online and seeing what, typically,
a Production Assistant gets paidin West Michigan or Chicago.
Production Assistants aren'tunion, so different productions can
really pay you whatever they want.
And depending on the type ofproject, it will pay differently.
So just knowing based on your experience,but also always aiming higher because
they can always come down lower.
It's a tricky one.
I guess the short answer of all thisis that when you're starting out,

(17:03):
you might be doing free or low paywork, but don't get stuck in that.
It's okay to do a few to make someconnections, if it's good opportunities,
but don't think that it's okay to do that.
And even now, years later in mycareer, I had a friend 2 years ago,
who's putting on a Halloween show andthey were like, "This is my budget.
It's not your rate,obviously to build a set.

(17:23):
Would you still be interested?"
And I was like, yeah,this is a passion project.
This is my friend starting a newcompany and they want to start a show.
And I'm really supportive of that.
And if this was a stranger,I would say absolutely not.
But I want to support each other,you know, artists supporting
artists in this industry.
You just have to weigh your options andalso, big advice for students if they're
like, "I really don't know if I shouldtake certain jobs," is try and reach

(17:45):
out to alumni or people in the industry.
Or if you have a mentor and belike, "Is this a good opportunity?"
I have students coming to me all thetime being like, "This is an opportunity.
This is the pay.
Should I do it?"
And sometimes I'm like,"Oh, yeah, that's fine."
Or " Absolutely not,tell them to go away."
Jim, this question of knowing yourworth and wages and making sure that
you're paid for the work you do.
What is the framework, theprotections, that a union affords to

(18:08):
know that you are going to be paid?
Does a union help you atall know what your worth is?
Well, I'll come around tothat in a circular way.
As a professor and a researcher,one of the things that I looked at
was creatives and their pay rates.
And one of the most secret, obtuse thingsabout being a student is, when you get out
in this field, very similar to things likegraphic design and sometimes folks that

(18:31):
are in the seamstress field and thingslike that, you're working by yourself.
You are a gig economy worker.
You don't know, until you've gotsome experience under your
wings, what the right rate is.
I've got about 35 yearsin as an audio engineer.
And I, honestly, I can make a lot moreoutside of the union than I can as a
union person, but that's because I'vedeveloped reputation and people call

(18:53):
me for things around West Michigan.
What the union does is it basicallysets out the minimum viable product.
For being a person that's in thisindustry and then you can go from there.
If you want to work a non-unionjob, depending on your union
rules and your individual union,in some cases that's possible.
You should be making a bunch more moneyif you're not getting the benefits

(19:15):
and the wages and the things thatthe unions guarantee, whereas the
union, they're going to guarantee thatyou've got a baseline, livable wage.
It's much more than minimum wage, butat the same time, in Grand Rapids, it's
probably not what it should be comparedto work for the folks in Chicago.
And we make a lot more on thingslike Lollapalooza gigs than we do
here at the arena in Grand Rapids.
But the union at least can give youa sense of what the right rate is.

(19:37):
I have beginner workers that workfor my company, and I always tell
them, "You're at least two or threebucks above what the union pays,"
because that's what I feel is right.
There's not a lot ofcompanies that are that way.
They would much rather pay somebody 10or 12 bucks an hour than go up to that
20-25 dollar an hour rate, which shouldbe expected at the minimum for anything
that's college education related.

(19:59):
And if you're accepting somethinglike 17 or 18 dollars an hour,
that's McDonald's wages now.
So if you've gone through a fouryear degree, and you're making that,
unless you are, like Jamie said,working on a passion project, which
is a whole different situation, youshould be having some kind of minimum.
It should be 20 bucks or abovebecause you're working as a
knowledgeable, technical worker.

(20:20):
Absolutely.
Sounds like our best advice that we'rethinking is for students to think
about what their hourly rate is and tocompare that across other industries.
The benefit of a union is what'scalled collective bargaining, right?
Where, lots of people together cansay, "We're either going to take
this deal or not take this deal."
And so in that contract and thatcollective bargain, is guaranteed pay
increase for however many years you work.

(20:41):
That's also a great way to understandyour worth, to know what's in those
contracts that unions can put together.
Outside of just the pay, let's talka little bit about what it's like
working in a union environment.
Jamie, you had mentionedknowing some boundaries.
What are some boundaries in place?
Some guarantees where if you're ona union set or environment, you will
start to realize or be protected around.

(21:03):
The biggest one would be yourhours that you're working.
Many people might have remembered the bigIATSE strike that was impending last year.
And a lot of that had to do with what wecall "Fraturdays," which are Fridays that
are late shoots that go into Saturday.
And so you're not getting your fullturnaround before the Monday workday.
That was a big issue productionswould kind of cheat that because

(21:24):
there are certain rules aboutwhat your turnaround time is.
What is a turnaround time?
Oh, yes, so turnaround time is whenyou end 1 workday and when the next
workday is allowed to start for you.
And that also changes based on ifyou're a local hire or non-local hire.
And that's a whole nother thing.
And what your contract says about,does your day end when you leave set?
Or when you get home from set ifthere's driving time and stuff?

(21:48):
So there's a lot of different thingsbased on where you're at, what your
show is, but turnaround time in generalis, you are guaranteed a certain
amount of hours based on your union
of when you have rest period between yourwork days and then also on weekends that
you get so many hours on the weekend tofully recharge before the next work week.
Fraturdays were an issue in thatbecause they were Fridays, but they were

(22:10):
going to Saturday early mornings, sonow your Saturday's cut off, but then
they'd want you there back on Monday.
So that was on the list of thingsthat impending IATSE strike that
they were trying to argue for.
Another thing was their wages for thebelow the line, the lower tiered people
in positions such as the coordinators andstuff saying they deserve a higher rate.
Their job is very important.
Let's stop treating them likethey are minimum wage workers.

(22:32):
They should be moving up on thepay scale, just like everyone else.
Boundaries that the union does protectyou from do need to be reevaluated
from years to years, which is whythat happened last year is that they
were reevaluating their contract.
I think you're veryprotected with your hours.
That's the biggest one I always seebetween non-union and union jobs is that
you're only allowed so many hours on set.

(22:53):
You have your guaranteed turnaroundwhere, when you work in non-union, there's
really nothing protecting you from that.
You can work super long 14 hour daysand then asked to be back, hours
later, which is very dangerous,especially if you're driving home.
That's like a whole thing.
When I talk to people in unions, that'salways the biggest thing is your hours
that you're on set and your turnaroundtime, because it is a very big deal

(23:14):
when you're in big productions too,especially if you're not on locations
and everything is that when you'reworking 12 hour days in entertainment,
the last thing you want to do is haveto be back at work six hours from now,
On one of my first shoots in theunion, I'd been working non-union
and also working my own companyfor about 15 years before joining.
And so I remember it wasone of our first big shoots.

(23:35):
I was on the set, I was excited toshow what I can do and all that,
I was working, working, working.
And all of a sudden, a producercame up to me and said, "Hey,
you need to go take a lunch."
And I was like, "Oh, I'll work.
And they were like, no,no, you gotta go take a
You got to take that lunch.
"Like I will get in troubleif you don't take a lunch."
And I was like, "Really?
I get just 45 minutes off?"
Like I had never experienced that before.
Jaz, was there anything thatsurprised you when you joined up?

(23:57):
Anything that you, were like,"This is a great benefit here."
Yeah, in terms of the lunchthing, if union productions don't
break you after 6 hours from calltime, they have to pay a penalty.
I believe it's every 15 to 30minutes that they don't break you.
And when you're a PA working on theproduction, you don't get the extra
money that comes from penalty with that.
You're still not breaking the sametime as everybody else, but you don't

(24:20):
get the extra little benefit of cash.
You may think, "Oh, once or twicea week, it's not that much."
But if it happens every day for a5 to 6 day work week, which I've
been on, it actually adds up andit shows up in your paycheck.
So that's definitely a benefit of it.
But another thing with the strikethat was possibly going to happen
last year, producers want totake away that sort of penalty.

(24:41):
So everyone would take their ownhalf hour lunch, which would just
make things way more chaotic,especially for camera operators.
They have to be on their feet all thetime, because it's not like they can
just take a rest whenever they want.
Someone has to be operating the camera.
Having that sort of penalty,it's like, "No, you have to
give us a half hour break.
You cannot work us for a full12 hours without a break."

(25:01):
That's so important to have.
12 hours to a half hour break stillisn't quite enough in my opinion.
Jim can you talk to us about somethings that you felt protected
around on set, whether safety orbreaks or, what do you see out there?
Well, honestly, that's been the role thatI've taken on in the last year or two.
Now that I've got seniority,I end up taking jobs that are

(25:21):
what they call Head Audio.
And so I'm in charge of everybody that'son the deck of a stage, whether it's
a Broadway musical coming into GrandRapids, or sometimes, I work at Meijer
Gardens, so it's an outdoor concert.
And that puts me in my own mind asthe head of safety in that area.
I have seen in some unions the headswill kind of just sit in their chairs
and not do a lot, but I tend to be rightin the mix of things I'm getting old.

(25:44):
So I call everybody kids, now, andthey say, "Come on, kids, you gotta
get some extra people on that."
Safety really has to be the forefrontbecause all of these productions,
whether it's live stage productions, ormovies, or musicals, or anything that's
involved with mostly union production,there's going to be dangers there.
We're running temporaryequipment everywhere.
There's cables on the ground,there's heavy duty electricity,

(26:07):
there's really heavy stuff upabove our heads all the time.
And so if you're not watching thesafety, you're going to run into issues.
And what I find is that the union is farbetter about making sure everybody walks
off the set without injury at the endof the day, than an independent will be.
Because, if you go back towards thepassion projects and independent films,
the producers on those, their brainsare wrapped around so much more because

(26:30):
they're trying to do more with less,that they're not going to pay attention
if there's a cable that's got 480 volts,and somebody is going to put it right
in the middle of a puddle or something.
They don't have the bandwidth to do that.
And so, I find that non-union,especially when we're talking about
video production, that tends to be amuch less safety-oriented spot to begin.

(26:50):
You have to really push a lotharder to make sure safety is okay.
Whereas with the unionfolks, they understand it.
Especially in things likearenas or Broadway musicals and
things, if you yell, "Stop!"
The whole deck stops.
That's the way it should bebecause everyone has to look
up and say, "What's going on?
What's unsafe?"
There is like the stereotype that likenon-union is less safe than union.
And I think what Jim says isright is why we think that.

(27:12):
But , I would also say that that'snot the case across the board.
I don't want people to think that everytime they go onto a non-union set,
they're just like doomed for death.
That is not the case.
And I know that's what Jim was getting at.
I think the layer to that of why wealso say that union sets have another
step in priority for safety, not becausenon-union don't care about your life.
It's because when you're in anunion, you're represented and you

(27:33):
have representation from your union.
So if anything is unsafe on your setand you're non-union, you can go to
your producer and the people in chargeof that project and say, "We feel
unsafe," but there's a huge gray area.
When there is something that's unsafe ona union project, you go to your union rep.
If nothing's getting done, theunion rep shuts up, shows up and
the production can get shut down.

(27:53):
They take it more seriously becauseyou have that representation and
that protection from the unionbecause you're part of that.
That's why unions take their safetymore seriously because they don't
want to get shut down and theyknow that they can be shut down.
Absolutely.
I think a lot of that protectioncomes from also not being able to
just be fired for any reason, right?
If you blow a whistle and you say, "Hey,this needs to stop" on some sets, it

(28:15):
could be totally fine for you to getfired, especially if you're a freelancer.
But if you're in the union, there hasto be significant reason to fire you.
Have you seen any of those protectionsin place where people are protected
from getting thrown out for any reason?
I'll speak to that.
And I will say that that can go both ways.
Sometimes, some of the folks that I'veseen working on various shows—I want

(28:36):
to say this very delicately— they canbe very high on the seniority list
and still be uninformed on safety.
I think the one thing that the unionhas is that, technically there's
no bosses until you get to theproducer level or the folks that are—
sometimes with us, it's all roadshows.
So we say the road guys are the bosses.
And that can be good and bad, but , youjust have to be aware of the safety,

(28:57):
because not everybody is going to beas conscientious as everybody else.
That's the one good thing about theunion, is if a guy is being a complete,
unsafe tornado, you can say, "Hey,they need to be not here today."
And so there is a way to removethem, maybe not get them fired,
but get them off that particularshow or that particular day.
And then maybe they'll rethink theirideas to be back in a more safe

(29:19):
way or a more constructive way.
Certainly.
Our industry is made up of individualsand individuals have biases.
Do you see any protections for people whomight be vulnerable, who are minorities?
Do you see any protections specificallyfor women or for different races?
I have these like, union pamphletsstanding by just to reference.
So for the audio listener, she's holdingup five different colored pamphlets.

(29:42):
I know in one of these, it's probablyin the constitutions and bylaws.
I'm sure.
. When you apply for a job, they say,they legally cannot discriminate race,
gender, color, sexual orientation.
And the same goes with unions.
You're not allowed todiscriminate when hiring people.
Especially living in Chicago and workingthere, because Chicago is such a diverse
area, when I showed up on my 1st day ofproduction, compared to living in West

(30:04):
Michigan and going to Grand Valley,
I was like, "Oh my gosh."
so many other people look like me."
There's women, and there's women ofcolor, and there's men of color, and
there's people who are non-binary.
And so to see that, and, know thatthe union is like, "We will not let
productions discriminate againstpeople working for them who are not
just straight, white, cisgender."
And the same with unions, like, wewill take anyone who is willing to

(30:26):
work, no matter what they look like.
So I think that's a greatthing for them to have.
And thankfully, I've always been in aposition where my friends that I see
on set are women and people of color.
Like I said, I've only been doingthis for about, a year and a half.
I've been here a short time, so Ihaven't personally seen discrimination.
I can't say it's not happening, becausenot everything is going to be on the open.
There's always things that are swept underthe rug, but I personally have always felt

(30:49):
safe here as a woman and a woman of color.
Yeah, I would say that I've hadbad situations and good situations.
Jaz worded it very well, is that theunion has their standards and they
are not going to discriminate andthey won't stand for discrimination.
That doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
And so sometimes you're goingto get some bad eggs of just
people that are really crappy.

(31:10):
But I would say that they don'tturn a blind eye to it, at
least in my experience, and toreiterate, I am not in a union.
I work with a lot of unions.
I send out a lot of union contracts,but I am not in the union, but I would
say that it's a situation I thinkis getting better over the years.
There's been a lot of things like theMe Too movement and everything that's
really, have people be more outspoken,I think, newer generations of people

(31:32):
coming into Hollywood, specifically sayingthat we're not going to stand for this
and that we do want more diversity andinclusion and everything is helping.
That doesn't mean that it'sall rainbows and sunshines.
An interesting topic got broughtup at work, actually, that's
on the same topic of this.
When we're talking about diversityin working, there were statistics

that we saw (31:49):
"How many people of color or women are hired on to
films in certain higher positions?"
Statistics are kind of low and weask, "Well, why aren't we hiring
more women or people of color inproducer roles or director roles?"
And that conversation switched back overto the unions and saying, " How many women
and people of color are in those unions?"

(32:10):
Because if we have to hire unionworkers, and this is our pool of people,
there's only so much that we can doas a company in a studio for hiring.
And I was really proud of our statistics.
We were on the higher end of thosestatistics, but, the discussion
was, "We can do better, but whyisn't there more diversity in
those unions for us to hire from?"
Not saying that the unions arepurposely not hiring those people,

(32:30):
but it all goes back to schooling andback to your younger age of feeling
comfortable as a woman in the film major,because I was one of the very few.
I'm sure Jaz can feel the same way,and seeing the diversity of acceptance
from that lower level, because that'sgoing to carry on through the industry
and bring up those people in theindustry, but if there's no one there
from the lower level of wanting tojoin the industry from the beginning

(32:53):
section, how are we going to have morediversity and inclusion higher up?
Because slowly people will leavethe industry, or they won't
continue on that career path.
So then the pool justgets smaller and smaller.
Absolutely.
I think mentorship is somethingthat is pretty important.
Jim, do you see any mentorshiphappening in and around unions?
It's interesting that you say thatbecause I think that the union in

(33:14):
West Michigan for a long time wasless diverse than it could be.
And just in the last few years,I've seen a lot of movement towards
diversity, which is a really good sign.
The current president ofthe union is a female.
There's 2 differentsetups in the IATSE world.
One is just a referral center.
And the other one is more of theidea of the traditional union where
you're an apprentice, and then you'rea journeyman, and then a master.

(33:36):
And right now we're working towardsbeing a training-based union where
there is some levels of seniority.
But also levels of competence involved.
It's the hardest thing to seewhen you get a new union member,
who's got a ton of experience,but they're very low on the list.
So they don't get the propercalls that they should get.
And so we're trying to work thatto where if someone has the right
experience and can test up, that theydon't necessarily have to wait till the

(33:59):
end of the list to get all the calls.
And I think that's been afunction of the diversity and the
diversification of this union.
I think we're getting to the point whereit's probably about 40 percent women.
We could definitely use some morepersons of color in the union.
I think traditionally thisproduction world has been an old
white guys last bastion of that,"Only guys can move heavy stuff,"

(34:19):
kind of feeling that used to exist.
But I think as we realize what diversitydoes for us, even the union says, "Yes,
we should be much better at that."
And it's really at the core oftheir principles is that equality
and egalitarian kind of conceptwhere we all can do the job.
And if you can do the job,you should do the job.
That's beautiful.
Hey, I think we're getting prettyclose to wrapping up here.

(34:40):
Do y'all have otherthings you want to say?
Anything we missed about your unions?
I think the big conversation of this wholething has been, " Should I join a union?
Should I not join a union?"
That's a question I geta lot from students.
I have always been non union.
I've always worked non union jobs,and I think , the reason why is
because of the type of job I wasdoing either wasn't unionized, so

(35:00):
there wasn't a union for me to join,or that was just how my life took me.
There were opportunities for me topotentially join Local 44, which
is the set decorator union, But,based on my wants, my needs, my
preferences, I've worked freelance,I've worked corporate for studios.
I have chose to do non-union.
That does not mean that I amagainst unions by any means.
I am a full supporter of the unions.

(35:20):
And I think when students are debatingwhether they should join a union or not.
It's not a black and white answer.
I think everyone hasdifferent preferences.
There are people who go theirwhole careers not being union.
There are people whojoin unions right away.
Jim and Jaz are perfect examples of that.
It's not an easy answer.
And I know it's one that really, reallyeats away at students, especially
when I graduated from Grand Valley.

(35:41):
I didn't know anything about unions.
When I moved out to Los Angeles,all of a sudden, people were talking
about unions and I felt very lost.
And I was like, "Cool.
How do I join one?
Like, do I just put myname on a list and stuff?"
And then I learned, the processesand it seemed very confusing
and I was very overwhelmed.
Just know that it is an overwhelmingthing specifically if you're in Los
Angeles or places like New York.

(36:01):
But, the best, thing to do is just go withyour career, take the jobs that you want
to take, see where your path leads you.
If it leads to a unionjob, like Jaz's path.
Great.
And if that's what youwant, that's perfectly fine.
If you're taking jobs andyou're not interested in joining
the union, that's fine too.
There's no right or wrong.
You're not a better person.
If you're one or the other.

(36:22):
People have different preferences.
And I just think that's very importantfor students to know, because you can
kind of get caught up in the whole unionthing and thinking that you have to
join to mean something in the industry.
And that's not the case.
It's just depends on whereyour career takes you.
I took a 6 year career shift.
I'm back in film now, but I wasworking for theme park design.
So I was working for UniversalStudios Hollywood where I was
designing the theme park attractions.

(36:43):
That's not unionized.
So there was no option to be union.
And then coming out of it, I couldhave decided, "You know what, I want to
start going back to union and try andget on Local 44 or something like that.
So I just think it's important tonot stress over it and just kind
of know that these are 2 options.
They have their pros and cons.
Everyone has a preference.
Jazz, do you have anything tosay about wrapping up here?
First, I just want to say themepark design sounds amazing.

(37:07):
So that sounds like a great career shift.
But yeah, I joined the union maybeafter about four months of working.
Well, I was voted in about fouror five months after moving out
to Chicago, which is very quick.
Like, I've had people say it's takenthem years to get into the union.
So I definitely feel very lucky.
And I'm glad I did join.
Like Jamie said, there is no rightor wrong way because everyone

(37:28):
has a different lifestyle andcareer options that they want.
So if you like the idea of doing morefreelance, where you can kind of be your
own boss and set your own schedule That'sgreat and you can kind of do the same
with the union, but you have to agreeto that collective bargaining power.
A thing that I really appreciate aboutthe union is not necessarily just the
pay, is they have a lot of educationalopportunities and they help provide

(37:50):
things like insurance that you don'talways get when you're working on low
budget or indie productions, but theyalso provide educational assistance.
So, if you are going to go back toschool, if you have a spouse or child
that's going to school that theycan offer educational assistance.
And they also just offer classes like476, they offer CPR certification.
They have basic construction classes.

(38:11):
You can get forklift certified.
So they do offer a lot oftraining outside of being at
work physically, which is great.
If you have some time when you'renot working and you still want to
learn and improve your skills, that'salways a great option that they
have those skills for you to learn.
And also just networking, becauseI didn't know anyone out here
really when I moved to Chicago.

(38:32):
I think if I hadn't joined the union,and I decided to still be a PA, I
definitely wouldn't meet the peoplethat I work so closely with now
and have the same opportunities.
I would still just be telling peopleto put on masks and make sure they get
their COVID test, which, a job is a job.
No shame to that.
But I definitely am glad I did because itis providing me with more opportunities.

(38:54):
Yeah.
Jim final thoughts here about unions?
I would build on what boththe ladies have said here.
I think that the union is a choiceyou can make in West Michigan.
I tell students if you want to bein production in West Michigan,
if you're not going to move outof town, at least go get your name
on what they call the casual list.
And that way you can getreferrals to different union
jobs that might need your skills.

(39:14):
And I think the idea of trainingis a fantastic one as well.
The union here has gonefull scale into training.
So yeah, get that Hi-Lo license,get certified as a rigger, even if
you don't intend to stand on thetop of buildings and pull chains.
Do all that stuff.
I'm just about to teach an audio classfor a bunch of folks in the union, because
we need more people that can at leastdo the basic working of audio equipment.

(39:36):
And I think any of those opportunitiesare not going to be there if you're
completely in the gig economy,and you're doing your own thing.
Which for some works, I've seenstudents at Grand Valley leave and do
fantastic work directly out of the gate.
But then there's a lot of folkswho are like, " Not exactly sure
what I'm doing with this degree.
I know all this technical stuff now, butI can't put it to use because I just don't
know who to call to make that happen."

(39:57):
And in that case, you can use the unionand meet some people without necessarily
getting the card and joining fully.
Not that I would say anythingagainst that as well.
I probably get a card this year, finally,because they're pressuring me, "Hey, if
you're going to be a boss, you shouldprobably have a card in your hand."
it's a different decision for everyone.
I went 35 years without having unionbacking, but I've really enjoyed

(40:17):
the last eight or nine of them, justlearning the system of the union
and getting in and doing gigs withthose folks, because there's some
fantastic people and some fantasticcontacts that I've made through it.
Absolutely.
And, built a network, a structurefor wages, talking about insurance
and classes and all of that worksbecause, people come together and
fight for each other's rights.
I always like to end these podcastswith just like a really high note here.

(40:39):
So if we could just go around and talkabout something you're really proud
of in your career, something you justdid recently, a problem you solved.
Something that you tackled, put together.
Let's start with Jaz.
What is something you'rereally proud of recently?
I've only worked on 3 TV showssince being in the union.
Most recently The Bear came out andthey're starting season two now.

(41:01):
I'm not working on season two,but I worked on season one, and
that was a very food heavy show,because it's about a restaurant.
The cool thing with props isyou're doing so many different
things, depending on the show.
So the fact that I was workingon a show, so food heavy.
I think actually taught me how to bea better cook a little bit, I guess.
I really enjoyed being on thatshow and I'm like, "Oh, I didn't

(41:21):
know you could do this with food.
I guess it's not really a careerhighlight, but I don't know, working
on that show definitely was like, "Oh,maybe I should try this when I'm cooking.
That might be fun."
and also the fact that it gota Golden Globe nomination.
An awesome show.
But as soon as you said it earlier,I was like, "Oh, I love that show."
Yeah, but even working on the othershows that I worked on, like with
Force, we do a lot of things with guns.

(41:43):
And so I knew nothing aboutguns before going on the show.
Going on, working on that showdefinitely is teaching me a lot of
things that I don't already know.
Learning how to make fakedrugs, I guess, is cool too.
You just pick up a lot of different skillsthat I didn't know I would need in life.
Jim, what's something you'rereally proud of recently?
Well, 2 things , I had taught atDavenport for about 10 years in the

(42:03):
business department, so I am about ayear and a half into teaching at Grand
Valley and teaching both the audio andsome of the video classes and that's
been like a dream come true for me.
I really enjoy giving back and teachingstudents that the one thing I felt
like in my undergrad that I didn'thave was "How do you figure out what
you want to do when you grow up?"
Just talking with the studentsin a direct way and saying,

(42:24):
"Hey, don't worry about it.
Here's some tips that maybe I didn't getas an undergrad," is really fantastic.
And then the other weird little thingwas, this fall, through the Local 26
union, I got certified as a rigger, whichis something I never thought I would do.
But the opportunity came up and Ithought, I just want to see what it's like
for those crazy people who go up in theceiling of these arenas, 80 feet up and

(42:44):
pull motor chains and things like that up.
And they're a whole differentbreed to be able to do that.
And it still scares the hell out ofme, but it's fun to have the knowledge
and it's part of safety as well.
I can know when things are sketchynow that I wasn't aware of before.
It's been a really a new thing.
I've walked the beam a couple of times andit's scary and thrilling at the same time.
So I feel like I'm still challengingmyself as an old guy, which is good.

(43:05):
That's so cool.
At next concert, I'll look upand maybe I'll see you up there.
Jamie, take us out of here.
I'm going to bounce off what Jimsaid, because 2 years ago during
the pandemic, me and a colleaguestarted our own online school
called The Essential Art Department.
And we just celebrated 2 years.
So, very proud that it's beengoing strong and we've been
growing as an online school.
We teach online classes aboutworking in the art department.

(43:27):
We started it as similar to whatJim said just being direct with
students of things you might not havelearned in a traditional classroom.
And, how do you get yourstart in the art department?
And some things that you need to know?
We made it online cause it was a pandemic.
So we're reaching people all overthe world, which is really cool.
So very proud of that.
Starting a business is hard.
I never thought I'd be ateacher, but here we are.
And then second one, with my current job,we just wrapped "Kingdom of the Planet of

(43:50):
the Apes," which was shot in Australia.
It was my biggest film that I've workedon since being at Disney and 20th Century.
It was a very complicated shoot.
I was here in Los Angeles whileit was going on and the time
difference between Australia andLos Angeles is quite a challenge.
And so dealing with such a big production,but not being there physically on
set was really hard and I'm just veryproud that it just recently wrapped.

(44:11):
Wow.
Well, hey, thanks to allthree of you for joining us.
Thank you so much.
Thank you guys.
Yeah, thanks.
This was very great to learn frompeople who have way more experience
than I do to hear your guys input.
Thank you for joining us for thisepisode of Alumni Live: The Podcast.
Subscribe to our podcast to hear morefrom our alumni across the industry.

(44:32):
Check out Alumni Live on Facebook,Instagram, and YouTube for more
conversations and networking.
Let us know what topics you wantto hear our alumni talk about.
The Grand Valley State UniversityFilm Video Alumni network is here for
you, and we're glad that you're here.
Thank you for listening.