October 31, 2023 • 40 mins
Alumni Michele Terpstra talks with alumni Wendy Jo Carlton about her career writing, producing, and directing award winning LGBTQ themed films. Wendy Jo explains the distribution process for an indie film, why she doesn’t write coming out stories, how to succeed as an independent filmmaker, her thoughts on AI, and why she likes creating web series.
LINKS:
Wendy Jo's Website: https://www.juicyplanetfilms.com/
IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0138238/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/juicyplanetfilms/
Jamie and Jessie are Not Together trailer: https://vimeo.com/58852665
Easy Abby season one: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLc-afh1yK0_SynyZdcVFbGSUQt-n49UlZ
Easy Abby season two: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLc-afh1yK0_RN3oxecHCdLNLZvKDM2cna
Good Kisser: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2x58d9yb88
Hannah Free trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dihna458hkM
To learn about ways you can support GVSU film and video students:
LINKS:
Wendy Jo's Website: https://www.juicyplanetfilms.com/
IMDb: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0138238/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/juicyplanetfilms/
Jamie and Jessie are Not Together trailer: https://vimeo.com/58852665
Easy Abby season one: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLc-afh1yK0_SynyZdcVFbGSUQt-n49UlZ
Easy Abby season two: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLc-afh1yK0_RN3oxecHCdLNLZvKDM2cna
Good Kisser: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2x58d9yb88
Hannah Free trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dihna458hkM
To learn about ways you can support GVSU film and video students:
- The Dirk Koning Memorial Film and Video Scholarship
- The Chuck Peterson Memorial Fellowship
- Morse-Cuppy Film, Video, Animation Study Abroad Endowed Scholarship
- GVSU F/V Alumni: https://www.facebook.com/groups/gvsufilmvideoalumni
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome to Alumni Live (00:03):
The Podcast.
These are conversations with GrandValley State University film and video
graduates about the industry, thefilm, video, major and alumni profiles.
Welcome to the GVSU Film andVideo Alumni Live Podcast.
I'm Michele Terpstra, class of 1995.
Today, we're honored to have with us WendyJo Carlton, a highly acclaimed filmmaker
(00:26):
and alum of Grand Valley State University.
Wendy Jo is a talented writer, producer,director, and community builder who
has produced an impressive body of workthat has been screened internationally.
Her LGBTQ feature, "Good Kisser,"was a Jury Award winner and
is available on Amazon Primeand other streaming platforms.
Wendy Jo also produced the award winningNetflix documentary, "Circus of Books."
(00:49):
As a public speaker and event producer,Wendy Jo founded Chicks Make Flicks, a
media literacy and film mentor program forteen girls, and she has been a panelist
at various film festivals and events.
Wendy Jo is also an experiencededucator and has taught film
production, screenwriting, and mediahistory at several universities.
(01:10):
With her extensive and impressivebackground in the film industry, we
are excited to hear more about hercreative process and experiences.
Welcome, Wendy Jo!
Thank you,
So if you could give us a littlebackground on your career and what
you've been doing since you graduatedfrom GVSU, that would be great.
Since it's been quite a while, whatcould be my bullet point version
(01:32):
of what I've been up to sinceGrand Valley State University.
I think before Grand Valley.
I met folks who were alreadygoing to Grand Valley.
So just to tell this part of the storyI was inspired to quit my job full time
working in a contact lens lab and goto college because of people I met who
were like minded weirdos and artistsand progressives and queer folks and
(01:57):
a combination of all those things.
Like minded folks, we tend to findone another when we need to, and
especially, I was much younger.
So I was happy that GrandValley State was providing the
environment and the educationand the inspiration at that time.
Because this is pre internet, 1991.
Yeah, it existed, but it wasdefinitely pre-Facebook and all
(02:19):
this other stuff that is ubiquitousand people take for granted now.
So it's a lot more hands on andmeet-people-in-person kind of thing.
And so I did cross paths withsome folks like Rose Rosely
and Heidi Mau and Mike Kuhn.
And then I met Deanna Morse ata fundraiser party that the
band I was in played at.
So I was in a band and doing music and Iwas on radio before I quit my job at the
(02:42):
contact lens lab and went to school fulltime at Grand Valley State University.
So what inspired you to enrolland to become a filmmaker?
I think what inspired me towant to make films is that I was
already doing still photography.
I was very drawn to imagemaking, storytelling through
sequences of still images.
(03:04):
naturally I was drawn to that.
My boyfriend at the time, Robertgave me a 35 millimeter camera and
I shot just loved black and white.
I think I was inspired earlyon for whatever reasons.
I don't remember with black and whiteand dreamy storytelling, dreamy images.
Surreal, surrealism.
And so then when I met some folkswho were making films already at
(03:27):
Grand Valley and I saw their work, Ifelt like, "Oh, okay, I can do this.
I'd like to do this."
I'd like to figure out how todo this in terms of equipment.
But also again, when you meetpeople who are doing something you're
relating to and in an artistic way.
So I was already a photographerand loved communications in
terms of radio and photography.
(03:47):
It just was right folksto cross paths with.
In fact, I met Deanna Morris ata fundraising party that the band
I was in and co-wrote songs inand I was the lead singer in at a
fundraiser at Ray Street Gallery.
When I go back and, having thisconversation with you, Michelle,
I'm like, actually, there's a lotof things that are historically
significant in terms of the GrandRapids art scene and filmmaking scene
(04:10):
and progressive folks who are helpingbuild community and create community.
So I feel really lucky that that happenedat that time in my life because I
really was ready for that and lookingfor something bigger than myself,
but also something to be a part of.
And so, as a musician,I became a part of that.
And then, that led to meseeing filmmakers work.
(04:32):
And, and you know, and animations.
Because I love animation.
And want to make more animation, even now.
And I'm like, "oh wow, this is great!
I love this.
This is what I want to do."
That's how that happened.
That's great.
I actually hear some parallelsin what you're saying to how
I got into my career as well.
But you are an independent filmmaker,so what are some of the that you
(04:56):
face as an independent filmmaker?
Well, can I interrupt that trainof thought and ask you a little
bit more about what you're meaning?
I want to hear about you, too.
Well, when I was younger, I always wantedto be a radio DJ that was my dream,
and then MTV came around and I just haddreams of being Martha Quinn, and then
I went to college, and I was going toschool for broadcast and I was going
(05:18):
to go into radio, which I realize now Ididn't have a lot of foresight into the
future of how the media would end up.
And I took some film classesbecause that was part of the program
and man, I loved it immediately.
And I met so many cool peoplewho just gave me this whole new
perspective, these artsy people.
It was life changing.
I could feel that, what you were saying.
(05:41):
Yeah.
And it's no small thing.
It's actually, when you say lifechanging, it's life changing for sure.
It's so enriching.
It's like, you know, it's like you're now,you're now not just at the carnival and
you're having so much visceral engagement,but its also intellectual engagement.
And just watching how other peopleare telling stories and usually that's
(06:02):
reflective of also how they're livingtheir life, even, you know, in, in
your twenties, it's like, honestly,I don't think I've fundamentally
changed that much since I started atGrand Valley State University in the
film program, communications degree.
I mean, thinking about it a lotlately, maybe because of the
pandemic to put kind of a damper onmovie production or my moving about
(06:23):
safely or getting older, obviously.
Makes one see these thingsand make parallels like,
"Oh, what was I doing then?"
And I will just say for the sake of thisinterview with you is I've been thinking
about I'm kind of full circle feeling, Ifeel like the way independent filmmaking
in the United States has regressed.
In my opinion, I mean, the,the state of true independent
(06:45):
filmmaking is pretty dire.
It's so, so arduous to find thefunding to get a project made.
And I mean, as I'm writing it, I'mwriting it with a producer hat on,
it's not some genre film I'm writingthat no one can afford to fund, right?
Or it's full of CGI or something.
So even with that mindset of makingthings to produce, I would say compared
(07:10):
to other countries like Canada, orGermany, or France, or the Netherlands,
the government actually sets aside moneyin the budget to support the arts and
filmmaking It just costs a lot more todo well even in a bare bones way than
something like, say painting or drawingor more 2D stuff that's not time based.
(07:31):
So I will just leave thatright there to say, I think
I've come full circle in that.
And not that really by choice, I wouldso love to say, " well, now I'm with
the CAA in Los Angeles and I'm happy tosay that I'm getting 2 million dollars
for my next feature that I've written."
I am not reporting that, but I canreport that I'm excited about what
(07:53):
I'm working on, and I'm excited tokind of let go of that chasing of
the ideal that is like winning thelottery in terms of statistics.
And I will repeat thisthroughout this podcast.
If anyone's listening who is already afilmmaker and you're doing your thing,
and more power to you if you're getting2 million dollars or a million dollars,
(08:13):
which is considered low budget forHollywood, but not for folks like us.
It's like, go, go, go.
And I'm happy for you.
But for me I just want to keepmaking things before I die.
I want to make more things in differentforms, whether it's animation, feature
rom com, musical, I want to write one actplays for theater because it's cheaper
to do and you can still tell stories.
(08:34):
And not feel like I'm waiting forpermission from any organization,
or funding group, or investors.
I mean, project by projecthas been mix and match for me.
And I think a lot of independentfilmmakers, it's case by case.
Making "Good Kisser," which is stillon Apple TV right now, Apple TV and
Amazon, and it was on Netflix, and itwas on Hulu for a year and a half, which
(08:56):
is fantastic, I'm very happy about that.
If you go watch Good Kisser now,it's like, that's still under
one hundred thousand dollars.
And that movie, I'm proud to say, madeit . I think because of the overall
quality and that I also wrote it toappeal to not just a queer audience, but
a general audience that could relate tothe theme of a love triangle and also
(09:17):
the main character suffering from selfesteem and we watch her grow and stand
up for herself and her relationshipwhere she's being taken for granted.
So that's a pretty universallove story to write.
I still, to this day, ammotivated by trying to reach
as many people as possible.
My earlier films, for example,were a bit more experimental
narrative that I think there's totalaudience for and appreciation for.
(09:40):
But I just personally feel moremotivated to try to reach more people.
Who maybe aren't like me, quoteunquote, that's for whatever reason,
I've always been driven by that desire,even when I was younger, listening to
the radio and as like you, Michelle,I wanted to be on the radio and
then I went and got on the radio.
And now you're doing this podcast,but we could have our own radio show.
(10:03):
We could.
We could do anything.
You mentioned that budgets are small,and, two million dollars is nothing.
However, there's been major motionpictures shot on iPhone, and people have,
in their phones, you can edit a film.
Are those, more accessible technologieshelping you to get a story produced
faster on a smaller budget as well?
(10:24):
I would say for me personally.
Yeah.
my short film, "Sister Jesus," I shotthat on my iPhone and then I used, an
app that had a filter cause I wantedthe aesthetic of it, to look like Super
8 because the narrator is telling astory about when she was growing up
and in first grade or second grade.
It's like a memory andit's kind of dreamy.
And so that's that 4:3 format.
(10:45):
Everything was not 16:9, right?
That didn't
exist.
4 by 3.
Everything was 4 4:3, right?
So there was something aboutthat that just I wanted to do.
So that's why that short film, " SisterJesus," was, purposely shot it in
that way, using an app via my iPhone.
So I shot all that and edited that myself.
I would like to make a lotmore short films again.
(11:05):
Why?
Because it's fun.
It feeds the soul.
Helps my mental health.
I like that.
Also, it's accessible.
Like you said we didn't havesmartphones that had 1080 let alone
now you can, what is it, 4 or 6Kresolution you can get on an iPhone.
Which is like, wow.
Now, just because you have thetechnology doesn't equal that the
film's going to be super engagingor accessible to a lot of folks.
(11:27):
Depends on what your goal is, right?
Who your audience isand what your goal is.
For me, my current goal is justto make more stuff like I used to.
When I was at Grand Valley,I was so chomping at the bit.
And when I quit my job, seeI started, I was in my 20s.
So I wasn't 18, 19 when I started.
So I had a perspective, I feel that wasslightly more focused than some folks
(11:49):
in the same class as me at Grand Valley.
Because I'd already been workingfull time and I'd been in a band and
I was doing photography on my own.
But I was real ready.
I loved the structure.
I loved Barbara Roos.
cheers to Barbara Roos.
She really was a key figure in my,creative and intellectual development.
I'm gonna start cryingnow that we've lost her.
(12:10):
To change the subject just a littlebit, you previously mentioned that
you had shows playing on Hulu andNetflix and those kind of things.
So, as a filmmaker, how do you navigatethe distribution landscape of your
films and ensure that it reachesthe audience that you intend it to?
For filmmakers listening to this I thinkthe nutshell is again, it's project
(12:30):
by project case by case, You have moreplatforms now to have more control meaning
you could have your own YouTube channel.
So here's the short list of mysuggestions for people who are
maybe not already navigating this.
You now have YouTube and you can createyour own YouTube channel and publish
your work on there, control that.
The more views you get and themore subscribers you get to
(12:52):
your YouTube channel, you canactually start making ad revenue.
Some income.
You're not going to probablypay your rent on that though.
That's kind of reserved for the peoplenot really making aesthetically original,
super original in my experience,short films and feature films.
The folks making a lot of bank on theYouTube route are those who are younger,
(13:13):
they want to be on the camera, so they'remore like spokespeople or models or
they are comfortable being exhibition-yabout their lives and their career.
Develop a persona.
So if you take the persona, personality,20 somethings out on the YouTube and
just think about creative, originalshort films or feature films, you're
probably not going to make, yourrent or your mortgage on that income.
(13:35):
I've done well with my lesbian webseries, "Easy Abby," on not just my
YouTube channel, but it's also madea lot more income because I partnered
with OML TV and their YouTube channel.
And OML TV stands for One More Lesbian.
It's geared toward that audience, butthey had a website first and got a lot
of traffic six, seven, eight years ago.
(13:55):
That audience followed them when theygot their YouTube channel up and running.
They have almost a millionsubscribers on OML TV.
My own personal one, which I haven'tbeen adding new content on recently,
which is, something I can stillexploit that I want to go back to.
But I have 30, 000 subscribers on myYouTube channel, and that's mainly from
"Easy Abby" before I partnered with OML.
(14:16):
So they have a million.
And because they have a millionand they have a lot of content, but
they're not creating their content,they are aggregating and distributing.
So I have my own separate contractwith them that I negotiated myself
for getting most of that ad rev back.
So they pay me quarterly.
So mostly distributors will pay youquarterly, regardless if it's YouTube
(14:37):
or Hulu or another distributor.
So, "Good Kisser," my feature film that'son Apple TV right now, that's through
the distributor called Wolfe, and they'vebeen doing LGBTQ content for 30 years.
So they have all of this Rolodex,all these contacts and relationships
over time before all the new, fasterbroadband and technologies and platforms.
Part of that was, I had to decide totry to go it alone without going through
(15:01):
a distributor with those contacts.
And you can do that now.
At least you have that option now.
Filmmakers have that option now.
There are, I forget right nowthe name of the couple companies
that you pay them flat fee.
So if want to go the route of flatfee, it might be 2,000 dollars,
2,500 dollars, and they will pitchyour movie, like "Good Kisser," to
(15:21):
Netflix, Hulu, Apple, Google Play.
And they'll package it.
Usually the distributors are packaginggenre similar audience films together.
So, they'll be pitching like, here's"Good Kisser" and then here's three more
queer movies, LGBT-identified moviesfor example, or here's other rom coms.
And so they'll pitch for you and theyhave a relationship because those
places don't talk to you directly.
(15:43):
The short answer is they donot talk to you directly.
You can't call them up and say,"Hey, where can I send my .mpeg4."
You need that middleman.
So your choices are middleman, youpay a flat fee, and it doesn't mean you
get in, but you go through the process.
If you get in with that then you keepall your money that comes now that you're
on Apple TV or, let's say, Netflix.
Yay.
That's like winning the lotteryfor an indie filmmaker to
(16:05):
have that kind of exposure.
Now you've paid that fee,but now you're getting all of
the income from those deals.
And with "Good Kisser,"I didn't go that route.
I went with Wolfe, and it'sa little bit of a crapshoot,
because nothing's guaranteed.
there's pros and cons, but what'sin that scenario, I didn't have
to pay the upfront fee, and I gotsome, what they call MG, money
(16:27):
guaranteed, guaranteed upfront money.
But that's really just a upfront that they take some off.
So if you got 10,000 dollars,let's say, and six months later,
your film is on Hulu, Netflix.
The distributor that you hadthat deal with, they're going
to take whatever you agreed to.
They're going to take whatthey've spent in marketing.
You put a cap on that, whatthey've spent on marketing.
(16:47):
They're gonna deduct that, and thenthey're gonna go, "well, we already gave
you ten grand for the first six months.
This film has made ten grand,but we're gonna get half of that.
So we owe you nothing yet."
That's how that works in a nutshell.
It's a big, good argumentis to not go that route.
Especially if you're a littleperson, little person meaning
(17:07):
independent filmmaker that's trulyindependent, and you've cobbled
together the funding all on your own.
No big production company has comein and helped you cover 200 grand
of this or 100 grand of that.
You've done it through Kickstarterand Indiegogo, which I've also
done those a few times in the past.
Does that make sense to you,the scenario I'm painting?
Yeah.
Currently, it's down to, youget someone to pitch for you,
(17:30):
you pay them the upfront fee.
It might be up, you know, threegrand, it might a little less.
Nothing's guaranteed, but hey, that'sthe route I'd like to go next with
my next one, just to be transparent.
And then I'm very grateful and very proudthat "Good Kisser" is on Apple TV and
Amazon, and was on Hulu, but again, you'rewaiting for those quarterly payments that
are going through the distributor, andthey're taking a portion, not just minus
(17:53):
what they gave you up front at the timeof signing of the contract, but what you
agreed to in the contract and often, itcould be 30 to 50 percent of your revenue.
Wow.
I had no idea how that all worked.
That's interesting.
I know I hate to bore you with that.
No, no, it's good information to know.
We're taking a short break totell you about the Dirk Koning
Memorial Film and Video scholarship.
Here's Gretchen Vinnedgeremembering Dirk Koning.
(18:15):
The Koning Scholarship enables studentsto get that kind of an education, to be
a good filmmaker, to be able to expresstheir voice and to continue Dirk's dream.
For more information, and todonate to the scholarship, visit
the link in the description.
Now, back to the show.
So what about film festivals?
How does that play into whatyou put into your filmmaking?
(18:38):
Typically, if you're a featurefilmmaker, you can make income
and revenue from screening fees.
And so that's the route, at this stage.
I like making short films, butyou're not going to make income or
screening fees from short films.
They don't pay for short films.
They also won't fly you thereor put you in a hotel for free.
So the feature, that's the perks you getfor that is that you can negotiate, five
(18:59):
to eight hundred dollars a screening.
Plus their sponsors usuallyhave hotel and airfare sponsors.
So you get to fly to Italy orAmsterdam or New York and stay
somewhere that would be expensive andunaffordable for most folks to stay.
That's a big perk.
I love film festivals.
I like watching other people's work.
I like meeting other filmmakers.
it's a rich, relevant world tome that the last few years and
(19:22):
the pandemic, I've sorely missed.
"Good Kisser" premiered at SeattleInternational Film Festival, and then
it was in Toronto, and Los AngelesOutFest, and a few other places including
Chicago and the Cisco theater in Chicago.
And then the pandemic happened and Iwas supposed to go to Italy and Spain
and France and all of that got kiboshed.
That's my own personal disappointment.
(19:43):
But obviously, there are many morethings that happened far sadder
during the pandemic than that.
Let's talk little bit aboutyour film specifically.
You often feature mental health themes,and you have a lot of lesbian characters,
and what draws you to these type ofstories, and also the representation of
these type of characters in the films?
(20:04):
Why is this important in film and media?
Well, I can just speak towhy it's important to me.
It's like I just want to see morecharacters, people, and storylines
that appeal to me and speak to me.
and I still think there's a lotmore content needed with queer
protagonists there just is especiallynot going through the gatekeeping of
(20:26):
Hollywood and multiple people havingto sign off or giving permission.
Even if they're gay themselves, I justfeel like there's a whole other realm
and I guess it's not my life mindset ingeneral to wait for authority figures
or people with bigger pocketbooksto tell me what's okay to make.
I feel like, themes of queer identity, Itypically don't write about coming out,
(20:46):
because I feel like there's plenty ofgreat material out there about identity,
or the fear of coming out, or how tonavigate feeling accepted or not within
a family, like it's all fascinating tome and I'm interested in it, but I'm
not as interested in writing about it.
I like the protagonist being queerbecause there's so many stories to
tell and I'm interested in tellingthe ones that are less available.
(21:09):
And some of those include what it'slike to go to therapy for the first
time, and it's not necessarily aboutbeing queer, but the character is queer.
Or like in my web series, "EasyAbby," her mom is bipolar.
So I wrote in season two mainly, wefinally get to meet her mom and we see
that Abby has a contentious relationshipwith her mom and she's struggling with it.
She feels guilty that she's not beinga more forgiving daughter, but she's
(21:34):
still dealing with resentment towardher mom for things that happened that
she kind of had to absorb and grow uparound that were not psychologically
safe for her and her mom knows that.
So it was important for me to showcomplexity between the mom and Abby.
And Abby happens to be queer.
But I like to write it in, at leastwith Easy Abby, there's a light hearted
(21:55):
tone that I'm threading throughout,because I feel like the closer I get
to writing about things that are hardfor me to write about, it's easier
to write the hard if there's humor.
That make sense.
I think it's easier too foraudiences to really enjoy something
if there's humor involved.
When you're writing something like this,are you thinking about stuff from your
(22:15):
own past or conversations with friends andthings that have happened with friends?
Do you write a lot ofthat into your stories?
That's a good question because it's hardsometimes to cut the wheat from the chaff.
I'm sitting there writing and I tend tolet myself free associate for a while.
I want to write this movie that's aboutbeing a recovering alcoholic, right?
(22:37):
So the current script I'mwriting, the working title of
the movie is Lucy is a Loser.
And that's what I hope toshoot in Chicago this summer.
When I'm thinking of her, I'm beinginformed by people I knew in my childhood,
being a child of alcoholic, my dad.
And also, there's sibling issuesas well within my own life, around
substance abuse and mental illness.
(22:58):
so it's very close to home for surefor me to want to put those stories out
there and it influences me in my heart.
But with a sense of I'm not interestedin writing like Darren Aronofsky type
of "Get down into that and this islike totally relatable, like Black
Swan, but really difficult to watch."
I'm more interested in getting closeto that tone and being honest and
(23:21):
visceral, but I need to have more hope.
And I don't want to write that.
I want to write that there is a placefor this person to be able to go.
We're getting a light at the endof the tunnel, and it's not just
a reflection on how shitty it canfeel sometimes to be hopeless.
It's like, I want to try to representmy version of that, but have a way out.
And I think that's myown therapy, I suppose.
(23:43):
What sort of advice would you give toother filmmakers who want to write stories
or tell stories about underrepresentedcommunities or individuals?
Well, I don't know if I have advice.
I feel like if you identify froma marginalized community and,
like, I can only speak to beingfrom the United States of America.
I feel like there's more forcedmarginalization that's even
(24:06):
happened over the past five years.
But advice I would give, if you'rewriting from your heart and you can
feel it in your body, you're leaningin while you're writing a scene.
What I'll say when I teach toscreenwriting students, I just say,
I'm paying attention usually, towhen I'm literally leaning in, and
I feel kind of energized, becauseI feel like I'm on to something.
(24:26):
I feel like I'm feelingsomething truthful to me.
I don't usually use the word marginalizedmyself because I I'm not a person of
color but I am queer and I'm female.
I think underrepresentedwould probably be a word.
Underrepresented.
Yeah.
There's so much underrepresentedbecause so much that's happening
is again, approved of by multibillion dollar conglomerates.
(24:50):
Right?
and it's so much about capitaland profit and statistics.
So, we got to work againstthat as independent filmmakers
,and artists, and writers.
Because it's important that we do.
And to help inspire others of likemind because I just feel like I've been
around enough to observe that it's alifeline, mass media and accessible media,
storytelling, and filmmaking, especially.
(25:12):
There's something about the moving image.
We're watching another human beingin a scene, living their life, making
decisions, reacting to their circumstance.
And it's really powerful.
Yeah, I don't know if that's advice.
You might have to ask me again.
How do you survive as anindependent filmmaker, I guess?
Well, there's financialand there's mental, right?
(25:32):
I would say, okay, here's the advicethat has to do with making an income:
figure out what skill set to develop andthat you want to develop, that is not
about being a Screenwriter or Director.
So, here's the things I've noticedthat can give you steady income and
stability so you don't go crazy.
An Editor, anything in post.
Sound Design.
(25:53):
Producer, but it's harder to do that.
It's harder to do thingsthat are less specifically.
technically understood, right?
Because there's so many differentthings a producer can do.
But that's a lot of what I've doneas a freelancer is produce as opposed
to being like a full time editor.
When I was younger, I thought thatthat's what I should be doing, right?
Because I was editing all my own work.
(26:15):
And I liked it.
I liked the editing room.
But, there was something about feelingtoo stuck in front of the screen.
I don't know what it is.
But I know lovely editors whoI've worked with, they are totally
into it, and they make good money.
So Editing, Sound Design, ColorCorrection, all that post stuff
that's very skill set driven andyou're needed in more than one major
(26:35):
city so you could work in Chicago.
You could work in Grand Rapids bedoing that for commercials or ad
agencies or, get yourself to a largercity to do stuff that's narrative.
So I would suggest that and then on theproduction side, that would be Director
of Photography, Gaffer, a Sound Mixer.
These are all steady incomejobs within the film industry.
(26:56):
An old friend from Grand ValleyState University, David Bush, he's
in LA for many years now, and he isjust wonderful as a set designer.
And he's worked with David Lynch andDavid Fincher and, he was my first college
roommate and I adore him and he's justdid that thing and kept doing that thing.
And he's making really good money.
(27:17):
I don't know what the figuresare, but nice, steady, creative
income and works really hard.
So those are the things I would suggestand I would strongly suggest to pick
something and go pursue it, becausethat will be the steady income that
you can relax into and still make yourfilms that you're writing and directing.
I kind of been more of a mix and matchas my career and life has gone on.
(27:41):
I think because I'm attracted to alot of different ideas and things.
I lived in LA five years ago, and that'swhen I got the opportunity to be an
associate producer on the documentarythat's, I think, still on Netflix.
It's called "Circus of Books."
And I'm very proud of that.
I was in LA for a little more thana year and a friend of mine who was
the director of photography on myfeature, "Jamie and Jessie Are Not
(28:03):
Together," which I shot in Chicago.
Gretchen knew this other womanwho was looking for someone who
was a good storyteller and goodwith people and had the chops.
And so that's how I got my foot inthe door there for that project.
That would be my other advice,depends on what you want to do.
Want more steady income?
Figure out what kind of role you couldplay that is needed in a consistent
way within production and post.
(28:25):
Otherwise, have a day job that isn't inproduction, and you're fine with that,
and you can pay your rent with that, andfind your like-minded colleagues to help
you make awesome work that's original.
Yeah, you've actually inspired me.
I have so many ideas that I've writtendown that I'd like to make little
films, but I'm the type of person whowill have to just do the whole thing.
(28:46):
And I'm a perfectionist.
And it's really hard.
Then we have my husband he's downin his studio and he'll just create
a song and a music video and he spitsit out in a day and it's by no means
perfect, but he actually does something.
I don't know if you deal with anyof that perfectionism on your own.
You seem to do a lot though, so I imaginethat you've got a good grasp on that.
(29:07):
How do you deal with that type of thing?
Yeah.
That's why I was saying earlier on inthis interview, that I'm excited to
get back to making more short form workbecause I just know that I'm happier.
I just feel happier when I'm makingmore things more often and it's so time
consuming to try to fund, and shoot, andedit, and everything, a feature length.
(29:29):
Especially if it's under a 100,000dollar budget, which typically just
means you have less money to throw atpeople to help you make things go faster.
Progress over perfection.
Definitely progress.
Make more, I'm happier.
And if you're happy, it soundsto me like Michelle, like you
would like to make more stuff.
So like do an animation andthey have the AI stuff now.
(29:52):
You can do free animation withthe program and do voiceover.
They only have like 20characters So it's not from one
of your own original drawings.
But, I'm working on somethingright now just to have fun.
Make a little animation becauseI like doing character voices
and telling little stories.
Because I've just started a littlechildren's book that I'm working
on that I will find an illustratorand hire an illustrator to do
because I'm not a good drawer.
(30:12):
but it's been a dream of mineto do some children's books.
just do it.
You can do it and sell it on Amazonand not have to go through a third
party other than Amazon platform.
And they're not takingmuch money from you.
You can get an illustrator from, doyou know the website called Fiverr?
I've heard of it.
Yes.
There's a lot of freelancers on there.
We could be on there as freelancersand put your services out there.
(30:33):
I've done some voiceover work for moneyas well, but there's a lot of things you
can do that are multimedia combinations,and you could do an animation just for
yourself or to entertain your family.
Put it on YouTube.
The thing is, when we were at GrandValley in the nineties, right, YouTube
was not up and running and broadbandspeeds were not up and running.
That's all in the past now,so we can do those things.
(30:56):
So it depends on if you're trying to makemoney doing creative work, or your goal is
not to make money with a certain project.
When it comes to making a feature, becausethere's so many moving parts involved,
and other people I need to rely uponand collaborate with, that I need to
feel a little bit more together about.
You were mentioning this AI and at mycompany, we're using an AI writing tool
(31:18):
called Jasper and it's pretty amazing.
You just put in the text andit will rewrite it for you.
But say about 75 percent of thetime, it's really good and factual,
but then some of the time it's not.
But then there's these video programsthat will match move that Steven
Spielberg's got his hand in some now.
And, there's all sorts oflike writing, and video, and
photography, and illustration.
(31:39):
How do you see that changing the landscapeof filmmaking in the next few years?
I'm a skeptic, I'm over on theside, I feel like in my career.
I've not solidly been within one realmor at one company for X amount of years.
I got my MFA in Chicago With theintention of teaching full time,
and I still would like to teach.
I've adjunct taught a lot, butfor some reason I just keep
(32:02):
going in some other direction.
But my point that the AI, I really feellike it's all about context and who are
the makers and who's profiting from it.
So if it's corporate based andit's Hollywood based, there's
so much beauty and talentwithin that, that I appreciate.
But my heart's always with the sidebarpeople, the independent filmmakers
who aren't really interested in usingAI to do a thing, I feel like it's
(32:25):
more like assembly line help and speedand it's all about speed and do more.
And it's a corporate mentalityand a capitalistic, "let's go
faster and do more" mentality.
So, I'm like, "how can Ipersonally use it as an artist?
I'm gonna mess around with thisanimation and have fun with it."
Will I make much money off that?
Me, personally, no.
But folks who are using it,it's a whole other realm.
(32:46):
It's a more of a corporate realm.
I'd heard that some writers areusing it to help flesh out their
stories, and give their charactersbackstory, and that type of thing.
And I think well, that's actuallya really Interesting use of it.
You're using it as a tool, notdoing the work for you, but
helping you to craft the story.
Yeah, cause a lot of what's, the mosttime consuming and more difficult/painful
(33:09):
is blank page versus rewriting.
If the chat AI or AI program is goingto get you to a rough draft sooner.
And filling in some of thestory arc and background stuff,
like you say, I'm all for that.
In fact, what is it called?
Well chat GPT-4 can do that type of thing.
Really?
I guess the interface, I haveto do some practice on how
(33:30):
you're giving them the script.
What you're asking it to do.
It really is impressive
So when are you going tomake a thing that we can see?
I don't know.
I've got so many different things.
My problem is just getting started.
I have the ideas written down andthat's usually as far as I get.
And then if I sit behind the computerand I start working on some animation,
(33:50):
I just end up getting caught up in likethe littlest things and I just get stuck.
That's always been my problem.
Well, maybe think of your story first,is what I would just suggest to anybody.
That's how I remind myself of.
It's like, oh, how do Ithink this is going to end?
What do I think I'm writing about?
What's making me happy or enthused?
Or amused?
it's okay to just dosomething just to be amused.
(34:12):
I find for me, if I know how I want theending to be, what I want to feel at the
ending, what I want to see, what a lastimage might be, and I put that down and
then I reverse engineer it from there.
That is a good idea.
I have never thought of that.
I have all these little vignettes thatI have written that don't really have
much of a point, but they're just,nature-comedy story, like spiders.
(34:33):
Nature.
Wh—Spiders?
Well, so we go walk in the park andat night in the summertime, we'll just
suddenly walk through spider webs,and so I have these ideas that these
spiders are having a good time, justtrying to fling in front of people
and scare people, or annoy people.
I love that.
Silly things like that, ordeer out in the backyard.
There's a lot of nature here, so, theseanimals have little human characteristics,
(34:58):
and they like to play jokes on people.
I love the spider thing.
That'd be a quick, one minute story.
I'm like, that's what I needto do, just one minute, or 30
seconds, just do something.
The form that commercials have become,speaking of, you know, capitalism,
the form is a great model, right?
You can make an impression, or follow aprotagonist in 30 seconds and still have
(35:19):
a button out, you know, have a satisfyingpunch line or point to it, right?
With "Easy Abby," web series, thoseepisodes are eight or nine minutes.
And so I got accustomed to and enjoyedthe episodic nature because I had more
freedom, because episode to episode, Ididn't have to have it be a story world
that was consistent or an aestheticworld that needed to be consistent,
like with lighting or location.
(35:40):
Even the clothes people are wearing.
It's like, "Oh, whatever.
This is two weeks later inher life, or it's 10 days."
If it's important that it's thenext day, then I have to pay more
attention to what she's wearing.
But if not, there's this freedom, right?
With a feature film, you have toknow, is this taking place, when
the movie begins and the movie ends.
Does it take place in a weekend?
Is it two years?
You have to know that with a feature sothere's a consistency and a cohesion.
(36:03):
But with the shorter form,there's so much freedom.
So, that's also why I like short form.
Are there other differences thatyou have with working between web
series and that type of thing?
I think that would be themain difference for me.
Also, there's 14 episodes in season one,14 episodes in season two of "Easy Abby."
Even though that's twofeature film worth of content.
(36:27):
We shot that how I could shootit, meaning, it wasn't 12 days in
a row or 15 shoot days in a row.
Like, typically it's theefficient way to do a feature.
And this was more like,"okay, who's available?
Let's get all the schedulingfor the small cast and crew."
But it could be spread outwhen we shot it in Chicago.
So it's like, " okay, we'regonna do two episodes this week,
we can't do it then others.
Next episode, two weeks after that."
(36:49):
But within reason so it doesn't take youforever to get the whole season shot.
But I had written the whole season,so the episodes were written in
terms of the scripts and each scriptis about eight or nine pages So
eight or nine minutes long, edited.
Nine times out of ten, all yourfootage needed to be shot in one
shoot day it could be contained like,"we're going to get all this today."
(37:09):
We might be in two locations, butalso smarter if you try to keep
it in one location for that day.
That was a pretty efficient model.
And at the same time, it was importantto me to not have it look too stagey.
Or like a black box, right?
I want it to be real locations, areal apartment, a real restaurant,
a real coffee shop, a reallaundromat, a real bike shop.
(37:29):
You have to find those places,get permission in those places.
Get production insurance for those places.
Especially if you're not paying them,but you can guarantee that you have
production insurance if anything breaks.
That's one model I still want to pursue.
I'd like to do another webseries in that same vein.
It sounds like you have a lot ofideas still and a lot of goals.
(37:50):
I do.
I do.
Someone save me.
A lot of motivation, too.
Alright, well, thank you so much.
This was a lot of fun.
It was really interesting to talk to you.
Thank you.
Yeah, I love talking to you.
Thank you for joining us for thisepisode of Alumni Live: The Podcast.
(38:10):
Subscribe to our podcast, to hear morefrom our alumni across the industry.
Check out Alumni Live onFacebook, Instagram, and YouTube.
For more conversations and networking.
Let us know what topics you wantto hear our alumni talk about the
Grand Valley State University FilmVideo Alumni Network is here for
you, and we're glad that you're here.
The Podcast.
These are conversations with GrandValley State University film and video
graduates about the industry, thefilm, video, major and alumni profiles.
Welcome to the GVSU Film andVideo Alumni Live Podcast.
I'm Michele Terpstra, class of 1995.
Today, we're honored to have with us WendyJo Carlton, a highly acclaimed filmmaker
(00:26):
and alum of Grand Valley State University.
Wendy Jo is a talented writer, producer,director, and community builder who
has produced an impressive body of workthat has been screened internationally.
Her LGBTQ feature, "Good Kisser,"was a Jury Award winner and
is available on Amazon Primeand other streaming platforms.
Wendy Jo also produced the award winningNetflix documentary, "Circus of Books."
(00:49):
As a public speaker and event producer,Wendy Jo founded Chicks Make Flicks, a
media literacy and film mentor program forteen girls, and she has been a panelist
at various film festivals and events.
Wendy Jo is also an experiencededucator and has taught film
production, screenwriting, and mediahistory at several universities.
(01:10):
With her extensive and impressivebackground in the film industry, we
are excited to hear more about hercreative process and experiences.
Welcome, Wendy Jo!
Thank you,
So if you could give us a littlebackground on your career and what
you've been doing since you graduatedfrom GVSU, that would be great.
Since it's been quite a while, whatcould be my bullet point version
(01:32):
of what I've been up to sinceGrand Valley State University.
I think before Grand Valley.
I met folks who were alreadygoing to Grand Valley.
So just to tell this part of the storyI was inspired to quit my job full time
working in a contact lens lab and goto college because of people I met who
were like minded weirdos and artistsand progressives and queer folks and
(01:57):
a combination of all those things.
Like minded folks, we tend to findone another when we need to, and
especially, I was much younger.
So I was happy that GrandValley State was providing the
environment and the educationand the inspiration at that time.
Because this is pre internet, 1991.
Yeah, it existed, but it wasdefinitely pre-Facebook and all
(02:19):
this other stuff that is ubiquitousand people take for granted now.
So it's a lot more hands on andmeet-people-in-person kind of thing.
And so I did cross paths withsome folks like Rose Rosely
and Heidi Mau and Mike Kuhn.
And then I met Deanna Morse ata fundraiser party that the
band I was in played at.
So I was in a band and doing music and Iwas on radio before I quit my job at the
(02:42):
contact lens lab and went to school fulltime at Grand Valley State University.
So what inspired you to enrolland to become a filmmaker?
I think what inspired me towant to make films is that I was
already doing still photography.
I was very drawn to imagemaking, storytelling through
sequences of still images.
(03:04):
naturally I was drawn to that.
My boyfriend at the time, Robertgave me a 35 millimeter camera and
I shot just loved black and white.
I think I was inspired earlyon for whatever reasons.
I don't remember with black and whiteand dreamy storytelling, dreamy images.
Surreal, surrealism.
And so then when I met some folkswho were making films already at
(03:27):
Grand Valley and I saw their work, Ifelt like, "Oh, okay, I can do this.
I'd like to do this."
I'd like to figure out how todo this in terms of equipment.
But also again, when you meetpeople who are doing something you're
relating to and in an artistic way.
So I was already a photographerand loved communications in
terms of radio and photography.
(03:47):
It just was right folksto cross paths with.
In fact, I met Deanna Morris ata fundraising party that the band
I was in and co-wrote songs inand I was the lead singer in at a
fundraiser at Ray Street Gallery.
When I go back and, having thisconversation with you, Michelle,
I'm like, actually, there's a lotof things that are historically
significant in terms of the GrandRapids art scene and filmmaking scene
(04:10):
and progressive folks who are helpingbuild community and create community.
So I feel really lucky that that happenedat that time in my life because I
really was ready for that and lookingfor something bigger than myself,
but also something to be a part of.
And so, as a musician,I became a part of that.
And then, that led to meseeing filmmakers work.
(04:32):
And, and you know, and animations.
Because I love animation.
And want to make more animation, even now.
And I'm like, "oh wow, this is great!
I love this.
This is what I want to do."
That's how that happened.
That's great.
I actually hear some parallelsin what you're saying to how
I got into my career as well.
But you are an independent filmmaker,so what are some of the that you
(04:56):
face as an independent filmmaker?
Well, can I interrupt that trainof thought and ask you a little
bit more about what you're meaning?
I want to hear about you, too.
Well, when I was younger, I always wantedto be a radio DJ that was my dream,
and then MTV came around and I just haddreams of being Martha Quinn, and then
I went to college, and I was going toschool for broadcast and I was going
(05:18):
to go into radio, which I realize now Ididn't have a lot of foresight into the
future of how the media would end up.
And I took some film classesbecause that was part of the program
and man, I loved it immediately.
And I met so many cool peoplewho just gave me this whole new
perspective, these artsy people.
It was life changing.
I could feel that, what you were saying.
(05:41):
Yeah.
And it's no small thing.
It's actually, when you say lifechanging, it's life changing for sure.
It's so enriching.
It's like, you know, it's like you're now,you're now not just at the carnival and
you're having so much visceral engagement,but its also intellectual engagement.
And just watching how other peopleare telling stories and usually that's
(06:02):
reflective of also how they're livingtheir life, even, you know, in, in
your twenties, it's like, honestly,I don't think I've fundamentally
changed that much since I started atGrand Valley State University in the
film program, communications degree.
I mean, thinking about it a lotlately, maybe because of the
pandemic to put kind of a damper onmovie production or my moving about
(06:23):
safely or getting older, obviously.
Makes one see these thingsand make parallels like,
"Oh, what was I doing then?"
And I will just say for the sake of thisinterview with you is I've been thinking
about I'm kind of full circle feeling, Ifeel like the way independent filmmaking
in the United States has regressed.
In my opinion, I mean, the,the state of true independent
(06:45):
filmmaking is pretty dire.
It's so, so arduous to find thefunding to get a project made.
And I mean, as I'm writing it, I'mwriting it with a producer hat on,
it's not some genre film I'm writingthat no one can afford to fund, right?
Or it's full of CGI or something.
So even with that mindset of makingthings to produce, I would say compared
(07:10):
to other countries like Canada, orGermany, or France, or the Netherlands,
the government actually sets aside moneyin the budget to support the arts and
filmmaking It just costs a lot more todo well even in a bare bones way than
something like, say painting or drawingor more 2D stuff that's not time based.
(07:31):
So I will just leave thatright there to say, I think
I've come full circle in that.
And not that really by choice, I wouldso love to say, " well, now I'm with
the CAA in Los Angeles and I'm happy tosay that I'm getting 2 million dollars
for my next feature that I've written."
I am not reporting that, but I canreport that I'm excited about what
(07:53):
I'm working on, and I'm excited tokind of let go of that chasing of
the ideal that is like winning thelottery in terms of statistics.
And I will repeat thisthroughout this podcast.
If anyone's listening who is already afilmmaker and you're doing your thing,
and more power to you if you're getting2 million dollars or a million dollars,
(08:13):
which is considered low budget forHollywood, but not for folks like us.
It's like, go, go, go.
And I'm happy for you.
But for me I just want to keepmaking things before I die.
I want to make more things in differentforms, whether it's animation, feature
rom com, musical, I want to write one actplays for theater because it's cheaper
to do and you can still tell stories.
(08:34):
And not feel like I'm waiting forpermission from any organization,
or funding group, or investors.
I mean, project by projecthas been mix and match for me.
And I think a lot of independentfilmmakers, it's case by case.
Making "Good Kisser," which is stillon Apple TV right now, Apple TV and
Amazon, and it was on Netflix, and itwas on Hulu for a year and a half, which
(08:56):
is fantastic, I'm very happy about that.
If you go watch Good Kisser now,it's like, that's still under
one hundred thousand dollars.
And that movie, I'm proud to say, madeit . I think because of the overall
quality and that I also wrote it toappeal to not just a queer audience, but
a general audience that could relate tothe theme of a love triangle and also
(09:17):
the main character suffering from selfesteem and we watch her grow and stand
up for herself and her relationshipwhere she's being taken for granted.
So that's a pretty universallove story to write.
I still, to this day, ammotivated by trying to reach
as many people as possible.
My earlier films, for example,were a bit more experimental
narrative that I think there's totalaudience for and appreciation for.
(09:40):
But I just personally feel moremotivated to try to reach more people.
Who maybe aren't like me, quoteunquote, that's for whatever reason,
I've always been driven by that desire,even when I was younger, listening to
the radio and as like you, Michelle,I wanted to be on the radio and
then I went and got on the radio.
And now you're doing this podcast,but we could have our own radio show.
(10:03):
We could.
We could do anything.
You mentioned that budgets are small,and, two million dollars is nothing.
However, there's been major motionpictures shot on iPhone, and people have,
in their phones, you can edit a film.
Are those, more accessible technologieshelping you to get a story produced
faster on a smaller budget as well?
(10:24):
I would say for me personally.
Yeah.
my short film, "Sister Jesus," I shotthat on my iPhone and then I used, an
app that had a filter cause I wantedthe aesthetic of it, to look like Super
8 because the narrator is telling astory about when she was growing up
and in first grade or second grade.
It's like a memory andit's kind of dreamy.
And so that's that 4:3 format.
(10:45):
Everything was not 16:9, right?
That didn't
exist.
4 by 3.
Everything was 4 4:3, right?
So there was something aboutthat that just I wanted to do.
So that's why that short film, " SisterJesus," was, purposely shot it in
that way, using an app via my iPhone.
So I shot all that and edited that myself.
I would like to make a lotmore short films again.
(11:05):
Why?
Because it's fun.
It feeds the soul.
Helps my mental health.
I like that.
Also, it's accessible.
Like you said we didn't havesmartphones that had 1080 let alone
now you can, what is it, 4 or 6Kresolution you can get on an iPhone.
Which is like, wow.
Now, just because you have thetechnology doesn't equal that the
film's going to be super engagingor accessible to a lot of folks.
(11:27):
Depends on what your goal is, right?
Who your audience isand what your goal is.
For me, my current goal is justto make more stuff like I used to.
When I was at Grand Valley,I was so chomping at the bit.
And when I quit my job, seeI started, I was in my 20s.
So I wasn't 18, 19 when I started.
So I had a perspective, I feel that wasslightly more focused than some folks
(11:49):
in the same class as me at Grand Valley.
Because I'd already been workingfull time and I'd been in a band and
I was doing photography on my own.
But I was real ready.
I loved the structure.
I loved Barbara Roos.
cheers to Barbara Roos.
She really was a key figure in my,creative and intellectual development.
I'm gonna start cryingnow that we've lost her.
(12:10):
To change the subject just a littlebit, you previously mentioned that
you had shows playing on Hulu andNetflix and those kind of things.
So, as a filmmaker, how do you navigatethe distribution landscape of your
films and ensure that it reachesthe audience that you intend it to?
For filmmakers listening to this I thinkthe nutshell is again, it's project
(12:30):
by project case by case, You have moreplatforms now to have more control meaning
you could have your own YouTube channel.
So here's the short list of mysuggestions for people who are
maybe not already navigating this.
You now have YouTube and you can createyour own YouTube channel and publish
your work on there, control that.
The more views you get and themore subscribers you get to
(12:52):
your YouTube channel, you canactually start making ad revenue.
Some income.
You're not going to probablypay your rent on that though.
That's kind of reserved for the peoplenot really making aesthetically original,
super original in my experience,short films and feature films.
The folks making a lot of bank on theYouTube route are those who are younger,
(13:13):
they want to be on the camera, so they'remore like spokespeople or models or
they are comfortable being exhibition-yabout their lives and their career.
Develop a persona.
So if you take the persona, personality,20 somethings out on the YouTube and
just think about creative, originalshort films or feature films, you're
probably not going to make, yourrent or your mortgage on that income.
(13:35):
I've done well with my lesbian webseries, "Easy Abby," on not just my
YouTube channel, but it's also madea lot more income because I partnered
with OML TV and their YouTube channel.
And OML TV stands for One More Lesbian.
It's geared toward that audience, butthey had a website first and got a lot
of traffic six, seven, eight years ago.
(13:55):
That audience followed them when theygot their YouTube channel up and running.
They have almost a millionsubscribers on OML TV.
My own personal one, which I haven'tbeen adding new content on recently,
which is, something I can stillexploit that I want to go back to.
But I have 30, 000 subscribers on myYouTube channel, and that's mainly from
"Easy Abby" before I partnered with OML.
(14:16):
So they have a million.
And because they have a millionand they have a lot of content, but
they're not creating their content,they are aggregating and distributing.
So I have my own separate contractwith them that I negotiated myself
for getting most of that ad rev back.
So they pay me quarterly.
So mostly distributors will pay youquarterly, regardless if it's YouTube
(14:37):
or Hulu or another distributor.
So, "Good Kisser," my feature film that'son Apple TV right now, that's through
the distributor called Wolfe, and they'vebeen doing LGBTQ content for 30 years.
So they have all of this Rolodex,all these contacts and relationships
over time before all the new, fasterbroadband and technologies and platforms.
Part of that was, I had to decide totry to go it alone without going through
(15:01):
a distributor with those contacts.
And you can do that now.
At least you have that option now.
Filmmakers have that option now.
There are, I forget right nowthe name of the couple companies
that you pay them flat fee.
So if want to go the route of flatfee, it might be 2,000 dollars,
2,500 dollars, and they will pitchyour movie, like "Good Kisser," to
(15:21):
Netflix, Hulu, Apple, Google Play.
And they'll package it.
Usually the distributors are packaginggenre similar audience films together.
So, they'll be pitching like, here's"Good Kisser" and then here's three more
queer movies, LGBT-identified moviesfor example, or here's other rom coms.
And so they'll pitch for you and theyhave a relationship because those
places don't talk to you directly.
(15:43):
The short answer is they donot talk to you directly.
You can't call them up and say,"Hey, where can I send my .mpeg4."
You need that middleman.
So your choices are middleman, youpay a flat fee, and it doesn't mean you
get in, but you go through the process.
If you get in with that then you keepall your money that comes now that you're
on Apple TV or, let's say, Netflix.
Yay.
That's like winning the lotteryfor an indie filmmaker to
(16:05):
have that kind of exposure.
Now you've paid that fee,but now you're getting all of
the income from those deals.
And with "Good Kisser,"I didn't go that route.
I went with Wolfe, and it'sa little bit of a crapshoot,
because nothing's guaranteed.
there's pros and cons, but what'sin that scenario, I didn't have
to pay the upfront fee, and I gotsome, what they call MG, money
(16:27):
guaranteed, guaranteed upfront money.
But that's really just a upfront that they take some off.
So if you got 10,000 dollars,let's say, and six months later,
your film is on Hulu, Netflix.
The distributor that you hadthat deal with, they're going
to take whatever you agreed to.
They're going to take whatthey've spent in marketing.
You put a cap on that, whatthey've spent on marketing.
(16:47):
They're gonna deduct that, and thenthey're gonna go, "well, we already gave
you ten grand for the first six months.
This film has made ten grand,but we're gonna get half of that.
So we owe you nothing yet."
That's how that works in a nutshell.
It's a big, good argumentis to not go that route.
Especially if you're a littleperson, little person meaning
(17:07):
independent filmmaker that's trulyindependent, and you've cobbled
together the funding all on your own.
No big production company has comein and helped you cover 200 grand
of this or 100 grand of that.
You've done it through Kickstarterand Indiegogo, which I've also
done those a few times in the past.
Does that make sense to you,the scenario I'm painting?
Yeah.
Currently, it's down to, youget someone to pitch for you,
(17:30):
you pay them the upfront fee.
It might be up, you know, threegrand, it might a little less.
Nothing's guaranteed, but hey, that'sthe route I'd like to go next with
my next one, just to be transparent.
And then I'm very grateful and very proudthat "Good Kisser" is on Apple TV and
Amazon, and was on Hulu, but again, you'rewaiting for those quarterly payments that
are going through the distributor, andthey're taking a portion, not just minus
(17:53):
what they gave you up front at the timeof signing of the contract, but what you
agreed to in the contract and often, itcould be 30 to 50 percent of your revenue.
Wow.
I had no idea how that all worked.
That's interesting.
I know I hate to bore you with that.
No, no, it's good information to know.
We're taking a short break totell you about the Dirk Koning
Memorial Film and Video scholarship.
Here's Gretchen Vinnedgeremembering Dirk Koning.
(18:15):
The Koning Scholarship enables studentsto get that kind of an education, to be
a good filmmaker, to be able to expresstheir voice and to continue Dirk's dream.
For more information, and todonate to the scholarship, visit
the link in the description.
Now, back to the show.
So what about film festivals?
How does that play into whatyou put into your filmmaking?
(18:38):
Typically, if you're a featurefilmmaker, you can make income
and revenue from screening fees.
And so that's the route, at this stage.
I like making short films, butyou're not going to make income or
screening fees from short films.
They don't pay for short films.
They also won't fly you thereor put you in a hotel for free.
So the feature, that's the perks you getfor that is that you can negotiate, five
(18:59):
to eight hundred dollars a screening.
Plus their sponsors usuallyhave hotel and airfare sponsors.
So you get to fly to Italy orAmsterdam or New York and stay
somewhere that would be expensive andunaffordable for most folks to stay.
That's a big perk.
I love film festivals.
I like watching other people's work.
I like meeting other filmmakers.
it's a rich, relevant world tome that the last few years and
(19:22):
the pandemic, I've sorely missed.
"Good Kisser" premiered at SeattleInternational Film Festival, and then
it was in Toronto, and Los AngelesOutFest, and a few other places including
Chicago and the Cisco theater in Chicago.
And then the pandemic happened and Iwas supposed to go to Italy and Spain
and France and all of that got kiboshed.
That's my own personal disappointment.
(19:43):
But obviously, there are many morethings that happened far sadder
during the pandemic than that.
Let's talk little bit aboutyour film specifically.
You often feature mental health themes,and you have a lot of lesbian characters,
and what draws you to these type ofstories, and also the representation of
these type of characters in the films?
(20:04):
Why is this important in film and media?
Well, I can just speak towhy it's important to me.
It's like I just want to see morecharacters, people, and storylines
that appeal to me and speak to me.
and I still think there's a lotmore content needed with queer
protagonists there just is especiallynot going through the gatekeeping of
(20:26):
Hollywood and multiple people havingto sign off or giving permission.
Even if they're gay themselves, I justfeel like there's a whole other realm
and I guess it's not my life mindset ingeneral to wait for authority figures
or people with bigger pocketbooksto tell me what's okay to make.
I feel like, themes of queer identity, Itypically don't write about coming out,
(20:46):
because I feel like there's plenty ofgreat material out there about identity,
or the fear of coming out, or how tonavigate feeling accepted or not within
a family, like it's all fascinating tome and I'm interested in it, but I'm
not as interested in writing about it.
I like the protagonist being queerbecause there's so many stories to
tell and I'm interested in tellingthe ones that are less available.
(21:09):
And some of those include what it'slike to go to therapy for the first
time, and it's not necessarily aboutbeing queer, but the character is queer.
Or like in my web series, "EasyAbby," her mom is bipolar.
So I wrote in season two mainly, wefinally get to meet her mom and we see
that Abby has a contentious relationshipwith her mom and she's struggling with it.
She feels guilty that she's not beinga more forgiving daughter, but she's
(21:34):
still dealing with resentment towardher mom for things that happened that
she kind of had to absorb and grow uparound that were not psychologically
safe for her and her mom knows that.
So it was important for me to showcomplexity between the mom and Abby.
And Abby happens to be queer.
But I like to write it in, at leastwith Easy Abby, there's a light hearted
(21:55):
tone that I'm threading throughout,because I feel like the closer I get
to writing about things that are hardfor me to write about, it's easier
to write the hard if there's humor.
That make sense.
I think it's easier too foraudiences to really enjoy something
if there's humor involved.
When you're writing something like this,are you thinking about stuff from your
(22:15):
own past or conversations with friends andthings that have happened with friends?
Do you write a lot ofthat into your stories?
That's a good question because it's hardsometimes to cut the wheat from the chaff.
I'm sitting there writing and I tend tolet myself free associate for a while.
I want to write this movie that's aboutbeing a recovering alcoholic, right?
(22:37):
So the current script I'mwriting, the working title of
the movie is Lucy is a Loser.
And that's what I hope toshoot in Chicago this summer.
When I'm thinking of her, I'm beinginformed by people I knew in my childhood,
being a child of alcoholic, my dad.
And also, there's sibling issuesas well within my own life, around
substance abuse and mental illness.
(22:58):
so it's very close to home for surefor me to want to put those stories out
there and it influences me in my heart.
But with a sense of I'm not interestedin writing like Darren Aronofsky type
of "Get down into that and this islike totally relatable, like Black
Swan, but really difficult to watch."
I'm more interested in getting closeto that tone and being honest and
(23:21):
visceral, but I need to have more hope.
And I don't want to write that.
I want to write that there is a placefor this person to be able to go.
We're getting a light at the endof the tunnel, and it's not just
a reflection on how shitty it canfeel sometimes to be hopeless.
It's like, I want to try to representmy version of that, but have a way out.
And I think that's myown therapy, I suppose.
(23:43):
What sort of advice would you give toother filmmakers who want to write stories
or tell stories about underrepresentedcommunities or individuals?
Well, I don't know if I have advice.
I feel like if you identify froma marginalized community and,
like, I can only speak to beingfrom the United States of America.
I feel like there's more forcedmarginalization that's even
(24:06):
happened over the past five years.
But advice I would give, if you'rewriting from your heart and you can
feel it in your body, you're leaningin while you're writing a scene.
What I'll say when I teach toscreenwriting students, I just say,
I'm paying attention usually, towhen I'm literally leaning in, and
I feel kind of energized, becauseI feel like I'm on to something.
(24:26):
I feel like I'm feelingsomething truthful to me.
I don't usually use the word marginalizedmyself because I I'm not a person of
color but I am queer and I'm female.
I think underrepresentedwould probably be a word.
Underrepresented.
Yeah.
There's so much underrepresentedbecause so much that's happening
is again, approved of by multibillion dollar conglomerates.
(24:50):
Right?
and it's so much about capitaland profit and statistics.
So, we got to work againstthat as independent filmmakers
,and artists, and writers.
Because it's important that we do.
And to help inspire others of likemind because I just feel like I've been
around enough to observe that it's alifeline, mass media and accessible media,
storytelling, and filmmaking, especially.
(25:12):
There's something about the moving image.
We're watching another human beingin a scene, living their life, making
decisions, reacting to their circumstance.
And it's really powerful.
Yeah, I don't know if that's advice.
You might have to ask me again.
How do you survive as anindependent filmmaker, I guess?
Well, there's financialand there's mental, right?
(25:32):
I would say, okay, here's the advicethat has to do with making an income:
figure out what skill set to develop andthat you want to develop, that is not
about being a Screenwriter or Director.
So, here's the things I've noticedthat can give you steady income and
stability so you don't go crazy.
An Editor, anything in post.
Sound Design.
(25:53):
Producer, but it's harder to do that.
It's harder to do thingsthat are less specifically.
technically understood, right?
Because there's so many differentthings a producer can do.
But that's a lot of what I've doneas a freelancer is produce as opposed
to being like a full time editor.
When I was younger, I thought thatthat's what I should be doing, right?
Because I was editing all my own work.
(26:15):
And I liked it.
I liked the editing room.
But, there was something about feelingtoo stuck in front of the screen.
I don't know what it is.
But I know lovely editors whoI've worked with, they are totally
into it, and they make good money.
So Editing, Sound Design, ColorCorrection, all that post stuff
that's very skill set driven andyou're needed in more than one major
(26:35):
city so you could work in Chicago.
You could work in Grand Rapids bedoing that for commercials or ad
agencies or, get yourself to a largercity to do stuff that's narrative.
So I would suggest that and then on theproduction side, that would be Director
of Photography, Gaffer, a Sound Mixer.
These are all steady incomejobs within the film industry.
(26:56):
An old friend from Grand ValleyState University, David Bush, he's
in LA for many years now, and he isjust wonderful as a set designer.
And he's worked with David Lynch andDavid Fincher and, he was my first college
roommate and I adore him and he's justdid that thing and kept doing that thing.
And he's making really good money.
(27:17):
I don't know what the figuresare, but nice, steady, creative
income and works really hard.
So those are the things I would suggestand I would strongly suggest to pick
something and go pursue it, becausethat will be the steady income that
you can relax into and still make yourfilms that you're writing and directing.
I kind of been more of a mix and matchas my career and life has gone on.
(27:41):
I think because I'm attracted to alot of different ideas and things.
I lived in LA five years ago, and that'swhen I got the opportunity to be an
associate producer on the documentarythat's, I think, still on Netflix.
It's called "Circus of Books."
And I'm very proud of that.
I was in LA for a little more thana year and a friend of mine who was
the director of photography on myfeature, "Jamie and Jessie Are Not
(28:03):
Together," which I shot in Chicago.
Gretchen knew this other womanwho was looking for someone who
was a good storyteller and goodwith people and had the chops.
And so that's how I got my foot inthe door there for that project.
That would be my other advice,depends on what you want to do.
Want more steady income?
Figure out what kind of role you couldplay that is needed in a consistent
way within production and post.
(28:25):
Otherwise, have a day job that isn't inproduction, and you're fine with that,
and you can pay your rent with that, andfind your like-minded colleagues to help
you make awesome work that's original.
Yeah, you've actually inspired me.
I have so many ideas that I've writtendown that I'd like to make little
films, but I'm the type of person whowill have to just do the whole thing.
(28:46):
And I'm a perfectionist.
And it's really hard.
Then we have my husband he's downin his studio and he'll just create
a song and a music video and he spitsit out in a day and it's by no means
perfect, but he actually does something.
I don't know if you deal with anyof that perfectionism on your own.
You seem to do a lot though, so I imaginethat you've got a good grasp on that.
(29:07):
How do you deal with that type of thing?
Yeah.
That's why I was saying earlier on inthis interview, that I'm excited to
get back to making more short form workbecause I just know that I'm happier.
I just feel happier when I'm makingmore things more often and it's so time
consuming to try to fund, and shoot, andedit, and everything, a feature length.
(29:29):
Especially if it's under a 100,000dollar budget, which typically just
means you have less money to throw atpeople to help you make things go faster.
Progress over perfection.
Definitely progress.
Make more, I'm happier.
And if you're happy, it soundsto me like Michelle, like you
would like to make more stuff.
So like do an animation andthey have the AI stuff now.
(29:52):
You can do free animation withthe program and do voiceover.
They only have like 20characters So it's not from one
of your own original drawings.
But, I'm working on somethingright now just to have fun.
Make a little animation becauseI like doing character voices
and telling little stories.
Because I've just started a littlechildren's book that I'm working
on that I will find an illustratorand hire an illustrator to do
because I'm not a good drawer.
(30:12):
but it's been a dream of mineto do some children's books.
just do it.
You can do it and sell it on Amazonand not have to go through a third
party other than Amazon platform.
And they're not takingmuch money from you.
You can get an illustrator from, doyou know the website called Fiverr?
I've heard of it.
Yes.
There's a lot of freelancers on there.
We could be on there as freelancersand put your services out there.
(30:33):
I've done some voiceover work for moneyas well, but there's a lot of things you
can do that are multimedia combinations,and you could do an animation just for
yourself or to entertain your family.
Put it on YouTube.
The thing is, when we were at GrandValley in the nineties, right, YouTube
was not up and running and broadbandspeeds were not up and running.
That's all in the past now,so we can do those things.
(30:56):
So it depends on if you're trying to makemoney doing creative work, or your goal is
not to make money with a certain project.
When it comes to making a feature, becausethere's so many moving parts involved,
and other people I need to rely uponand collaborate with, that I need to
feel a little bit more together about.
You were mentioning this AI and at mycompany, we're using an AI writing tool
(31:18):
called Jasper and it's pretty amazing.
You just put in the text andit will rewrite it for you.
But say about 75 percent of thetime, it's really good and factual,
but then some of the time it's not.
But then there's these video programsthat will match move that Steven
Spielberg's got his hand in some now.
And, there's all sorts oflike writing, and video, and
photography, and illustration.
(31:39):
How do you see that changing the landscapeof filmmaking in the next few years?
I'm a skeptic, I'm over on theside, I feel like in my career.
I've not solidly been within one realmor at one company for X amount of years.
I got my MFA in Chicago With theintention of teaching full time,
and I still would like to teach.
I've adjunct taught a lot, butfor some reason I just keep
(32:02):
going in some other direction.
But my point that the AI, I really feellike it's all about context and who are
the makers and who's profiting from it.
So if it's corporate based andit's Hollywood based, there's
so much beauty and talentwithin that, that I appreciate.
But my heart's always with the sidebarpeople, the independent filmmakers
who aren't really interested in usingAI to do a thing, I feel like it's
(32:25):
more like assembly line help and speedand it's all about speed and do more.
And it's a corporate mentalityand a capitalistic, "let's go
faster and do more" mentality.
So, I'm like, "how can Ipersonally use it as an artist?
I'm gonna mess around with thisanimation and have fun with it."
Will I make much money off that?
Me, personally, no.
But folks who are using it,it's a whole other realm.
(32:46):
It's a more of a corporate realm.
I'd heard that some writers areusing it to help flesh out their
stories, and give their charactersbackstory, and that type of thing.
And I think well, that's actuallya really Interesting use of it.
You're using it as a tool, notdoing the work for you, but
helping you to craft the story.
Yeah, cause a lot of what's, the mosttime consuming and more difficult/painful
(33:09):
is blank page versus rewriting.
If the chat AI or AI program is goingto get you to a rough draft sooner.
And filling in some of thestory arc and background stuff,
like you say, I'm all for that.
In fact, what is it called?
Well chat GPT-4 can do that type of thing.
Really?
I guess the interface, I haveto do some practice on how
(33:30):
you're giving them the script.
What you're asking it to do.
It really is impressive
So when are you going tomake a thing that we can see?
I don't know.
I've got so many different things.
My problem is just getting started.
I have the ideas written down andthat's usually as far as I get.
And then if I sit behind the computerand I start working on some animation,
(33:50):
I just end up getting caught up in likethe littlest things and I just get stuck.
That's always been my problem.
Well, maybe think of your story first,is what I would just suggest to anybody.
That's how I remind myself of.
It's like, oh, how do Ithink this is going to end?
What do I think I'm writing about?
What's making me happy or enthused?
Or amused?
it's okay to just dosomething just to be amused.
(34:12):
I find for me, if I know how I want theending to be, what I want to feel at the
ending, what I want to see, what a lastimage might be, and I put that down and
then I reverse engineer it from there.
That is a good idea.
I have never thought of that.
I have all these little vignettes thatI have written that don't really have
much of a point, but they're just,nature-comedy story, like spiders.
(34:33):
Nature.
Wh—Spiders?
Well, so we go walk in the park andat night in the summertime, we'll just
suddenly walk through spider webs,and so I have these ideas that these
spiders are having a good time, justtrying to fling in front of people
and scare people, or annoy people.
I love that.
Silly things like that, ordeer out in the backyard.
There's a lot of nature here, so, theseanimals have little human characteristics,
(34:58):
and they like to play jokes on people.
I love the spider thing.
That'd be a quick, one minute story.
I'm like, that's what I needto do, just one minute, or 30
seconds, just do something.
The form that commercials have become,speaking of, you know, capitalism,
the form is a great model, right?
You can make an impression, or follow aprotagonist in 30 seconds and still have
(35:19):
a button out, you know, have a satisfyingpunch line or point to it, right?
With "Easy Abby," web series, thoseepisodes are eight or nine minutes.
And so I got accustomed to and enjoyedthe episodic nature because I had more
freedom, because episode to episode, Ididn't have to have it be a story world
that was consistent or an aestheticworld that needed to be consistent,
like with lighting or location.
(35:40):
Even the clothes people are wearing.
It's like, "Oh, whatever.
This is two weeks later inher life, or it's 10 days."
If it's important that it's thenext day, then I have to pay more
attention to what she's wearing.
But if not, there's this freedom, right?
With a feature film, you have toknow, is this taking place, when
the movie begins and the movie ends.
Does it take place in a weekend?
Is it two years?
You have to know that with a feature sothere's a consistency and a cohesion.
(36:03):
But with the shorter form,there's so much freedom.
So, that's also why I like short form.
Are there other differences thatyou have with working between web
series and that type of thing?
I think that would be themain difference for me.
Also, there's 14 episodes in season one,14 episodes in season two of "Easy Abby."
Even though that's twofeature film worth of content.
(36:27):
We shot that how I could shootit, meaning, it wasn't 12 days in
a row or 15 shoot days in a row.
Like, typically it's theefficient way to do a feature.
And this was more like,"okay, who's available?
Let's get all the schedulingfor the small cast and crew."
But it could be spread outwhen we shot it in Chicago.
So it's like, " okay, we'regonna do two episodes this week,
we can't do it then others.
Next episode, two weeks after that."
(36:49):
But within reason so it doesn't take youforever to get the whole season shot.
But I had written the whole season,so the episodes were written in
terms of the scripts and each scriptis about eight or nine pages So
eight or nine minutes long, edited.
Nine times out of ten, all yourfootage needed to be shot in one
shoot day it could be contained like,"we're going to get all this today."
(37:09):
We might be in two locations, butalso smarter if you try to keep
it in one location for that day.
That was a pretty efficient model.
And at the same time, it was importantto me to not have it look too stagey.
Or like a black box, right?
I want it to be real locations, areal apartment, a real restaurant,
a real coffee shop, a reallaundromat, a real bike shop.
(37:29):
You have to find those places,get permission in those places.
Get production insurance for those places.
Especially if you're not paying them,but you can guarantee that you have
production insurance if anything breaks.
That's one model I still want to pursue.
I'd like to do another webseries in that same vein.
It sounds like you have a lot ofideas still and a lot of goals.
(37:50):
I do.
I do.
Someone save me.
A lot of motivation, too.
Alright, well, thank you so much.
This was a lot of fun.
It was really interesting to talk to you.
Thank you.
Yeah, I love talking to you.
Thank you for joining us for thisepisode of Alumni Live: The Podcast.
(38:10):
Subscribe to our podcast, to hear morefrom our alumni across the industry.
Check out Alumni Live onFacebook, Instagram, and YouTube.
For more conversations and networking.
Let us know what topics you wantto hear our alumni talk about the
Grand Valley State University FilmVideo Alumni Network is here for
you, and we're glad that you're here.
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