S4 Ep12: Producing - From Indie Films and Corporate/Commercial Work

Join current student Liliana Bartels, Breana Malloy (2021) and Gillian Noonan (2021), as they dive into the world of film producing— from indie films to corporate commercials. They’ll share career insights, break down the producer’s role, and discuss the challenges of balancing creativity, logistics, and funding.

To learn about ways you can support GVSU film and video students:

• The Dirk Koning Memorial Film and Video Scholarship
• The Chuck Peterson Memorial Fellowship
• Morse-Cuppy Film, Video, Animation Study Abroad Endowed Scholarship
• GVSU F/V Alumni: https://www.facebook.com/groups/gvsufilmvideoalumni

Episode Transcript

Welcome to Alumni Live (00:01):
The Podcast.
These are conversations with GrandValley State University film and video
graduates about the industry, thefilm, video, major and alumni profiles.
Hi, this is Liliana Bartelsand welcome to another episode
of the Alumni Live podcast.
Today we're talking about producingfor independent films and for
corporate commercial work with,Breana Malloy and Gillian Noonan.

(00:24):
So thank you guys so much for coming in.
I appreciate you taking the time.
So just to kind of start out,when did you guys graduate and
what sort of work do you do?
Oh yeah, so I graduated in 2021, andI run the gamut with production work.
I work at a production company, IngallsPictures where I help produce content

(00:44):
and videos, as well as I help runthe company, so I'm their Integrator.
And I also, on the side, doindependent narrative work.
A lot of short films, a couple features,so I kind of just like to do it all.
I've done some music videos yeah,anything producing, I'm probably doing it.
Yeah, I also graduated in 2021.

(01:05):
And I am a Project Manager atIdeology Productions, which is a
production company and creativeagency, also here in Grand Rapids.
So I mostly work in the corporate andcommercial landscape but a lot like
Breana, I've done some short films,a feature film and just really enjoy
the aspect of all the different typesof projects that we get to work on.

(01:26):
What got you guys into film and what hasyour career journey been and really what
kind of started that passion for it?
I got in a little later thanI feel like a lot of people.
Like I didn't realize I wanted to work invideo until my senior year of high school.
I decided to make videos for mysenior AP English class final project.
And I just got hooked from theprocess right then and there.

(01:50):
And from there I had already decided onGrand Valley and I was like, Oh great,
they have a film and video program.
This works out wonderful.
I've figured out what I want to do.
And ever since then I just graduatedand started off at a smaller production
company here in Grand Rapids andthen shifted on over to Ideology.
So I've been very lucky to have theopportunity right here in Grand Rapids.

(02:11):
Yeah, I have a similar timeline,Gillian, with how my stuff got started.
I actually, right out of high school,I was planning to go for psychology.
I was like, I'm gonna go and getmy doctorate and be a therapist.
And then I was like, you know what?
That sounds like a lot.
I have to deal with my ownproblems and help other people.
So it was like, I love helpingpeople, but I don't think this

(02:33):
is what I can do right now.
It was two months before schoolstarted and I was like, what do I do?
I was a theater kid.
I loved singing.
I loved acting.
I used to make up littlemusic videos in my head.
So I was I love movies too.
I could probably do this film thing.
I knew nothing about classic cinema.
I had no past experience, soI genuinely went in with no

(02:53):
idea what I was getting into.
And I got lucky and I loved itand I didn't change my major.
Fast forward, by junior year, Ifound out I liked producing, kept
up with that, and yeah, I justworked a lot, and I got very lucky.
Luck paired with hard work.
I emailed a lot of production companiesand Ingalls Pictures emailed me
back with a very interesting email.

(03:15):
He was like, I have an opportunityfor you, and I was like, I
have no idea what this is.
So I started out as, my boss's assistantand quickly moved into producing.
And then now I'm helping run the company.
I like to say it's luck mixed withtalent and hard work because, it's not
everybody's reality, but I'm very gratefulhow it's all happened, especially because
I thought I was going to be a therapist.

(03:37):
That's a great point.
I think the impostersyndrome is always there.
But then whenever I talk to colleaguesand friends, they're always like, you've
worked really hard for this as well.
And I'm like, no, that's a good point.
We've done both.
I like that.
In the idea of producing, whatdo you guys love about it?
I think my favorite thing from the verystart was that I get to be involved

(03:58):
in every single part of production.
I get to be there when thefirst idea is conceptualizing.
The idea is not evenwritten out as a script yet.
All the way through editingpost production to the premiere.
I don't know, that'sjust the most fun for me.
And then I think the other thingI love about it is that people
at GV know me, I love people.

(04:20):
I love talking.
I love yapping.
so I just love the people aspect of it.
And the fact that not only am I workingwith all of these people, but I can
help foster an environment whereit's not just work, but it's fun.
And I like to say a lot of filmsand I hope all my shorts and
feature sets feel like summer camps.
You're having fun, you're working,you're doing something, you're making

(04:42):
something, but it's also just fun.
So I would say that's my favoritepart, the people and the big picture.
Yeah, literally copy and paste.
That's exactly what it's like to produce.
It's fun to be in a position whereyou get to, like Breana said, work
with everyone and constantly learn,like you're in a spot where you
have to touch every department.

(05:03):
And so you're constantly learning abouthow everything works how to better
support people and just really be theperson and the problem solver that people
can come to at any point throughout preproduction, post production and then
you also get to pick craft services.
So that's another good one.
You get to pick the food.
So you could always potentiallylean into things you might like

(05:25):
in that department as well.
I know that you guys both workfor companies in Grand Rapids, but
you also do indie films, whetherthat be shorts or some features,
maybe some documentaries and stuff.
What are the differences inproducing between, for say, the
summer film project versus likea commercial or corporate work.
Is there a very stark difference?

(05:46):
What do you guys notice from that?
Yeah, I totally, I didn'teven bring up summer film.
Yeah that's a very fun project, and ifstudents are listening, definitely apply.
I just think it's really fun.
And yeah, I think thebiggest difference for me.
I think there's a lot of differences,but it's also very similar.
You still have to be creative evenwhen it's corporate work and a
client is coming to you with an idea.

(06:08):
Maybe they have certain stipulationsyou have to follow or you're like, I
have to sell this product or this thing.
At the end of the day, you'restill trying to convey a story.
So Pear, we're trying to sell this kind ofout of world idea of this guy growing back
, after dying, he's coming back from a peartree so that's what you're selling to an

(06:30):
audience instead of an actual product.
So I think there's a lot of similarities.
I think the biggest difference for meis just, I work different parts of my
brain but they're both creative, butthey're creative in different ways.
I just feel that there's no constraintson creativity when I'm working on an indie
film, because it's just people behind it.
There's no bigger company, there's no oneelse involved in it, it's just you and

(06:53):
the Director talking through this idea,your crew's coming to you with ideas.
Yeah, I think that's the biggestdifference, but I, genuinely like both,
and I'm sure I'm about to agree withwhatever Gillian says on it as well.
No, I agree completely.
I think creative direction is a bigdifference because a lot of times in
corporate commercial you start off withone idea and then their managers and their

(07:15):
lawyers come in and decide how things needto be shifted compared to an independent
where it's just the internal team reallymaking it whatever they want to be.
Budgets are definitely like a bigdifference in the independent world,
you're fundraising or you're findingbackers but in the corporate world,
you're getting paid to do a job.

(07:36):
So at the end of the day, youare just a service provider.
And so you want to do an amazing job forthe client and keep them coming back.
That's always the goal with corporateand commercial is to have happy clients.
And sometimes that does mean you getto lose the vision that you started
with, not a hundred percent, but justa little bit you'll lose it along

(07:56):
the way, depending on what they wantto do and what they want to say.
Budget is such a great point.
There's a trade up there for sure, butit feels good to me when I can hire my
friends who do a lot of narrative work,like grips and stuff, and I'm like, I
have this really good paying job for you.
And yeah, the money's already there.
Yeah, because a lot of times when you'redoing independent, it is free work, which

(08:19):
we don't want it to be free work ever.
We're always working, Producers arealways trying not to make it free
work, or just low paying work andit's more of a passion project.
And so that's very true in terms ofif you're friends with the Producer
and you get to work on something youreally enjoy, we will 100 percent try
to get you on a higher paying job.
It'll come back around.
And you just have to find the balance asall freelance workers do, no matter where

(08:42):
you're in video or a different industry.
It's just finding whatyou can do and what works.
Looking into the idea of independentwork Breana, I know that you are
well acquainted with Joel and hissummer film stuff, and you do a
lot of other short films and stuff.
Gillian, I'm not entirely sure ifyou do a lot of short film stuff,
so looking into that, from your guysperspective, what does a Producer do

(09:02):
in filmmaking, like in an indie film?
Within independent film,there's also different sizes.
So if it's a smaller set, you'redoing just about everything.
You're budgeting, you'rescheduling, you're casting, you're
crewing, you're scouting you'reordering food and ordering gear.
And then maybe on a bigger project, you'reable to hire people to do certain things

(09:24):
within the producing aspect as well.
But you're pretty much just trying to makethe whole experience as easy and flawless
for all the crew members as possible.
If I had to bring it down to one sentence.
Yeah, I completely agree with that, andI think one thing I try to tell when
I explain it to people who don't knowfilm, I always tell people , being a
Producer is just being a manager, or theperson running the show at a regular job.

(09:48):
You are running this production,so you need to know everything
that's going on, you're involvedin every department in some way and
you need to know what's going on.
Yeah.
Get all the information whetheryou're behind the scenes or in
front of the scenes for sure.
So going into that the differencebetween an Executive Producer and a
Co Producer, because I know that thoseare terms that are widely used, we

(10:12):
see them in the credits of movies.
Breana, you might have more insight, butmy understanding would be an Executive
Producer is someone who has just maybea general overseeing things, they're
donating money to a project, maybe thatmoney comes with a certain amount of
input into the vision and the creativeof what they're doing, and then a Co

(10:33):
Producer is often working more in theproduction, more as a Producer maybe
it's someone that their official titleisn't Producer, but they just had a big
hand in the pre production process doingsomething else, maybe they get a Co
Producer credit That's my understanding.
I haven't had a lot of bigger thingsthat have Executive Producers, other

(10:54):
than, we're doing fundraising, someonedonates a certain amount of money,
they get an Executive Producer credit.
In my experience again, I'mnot an expert on this because
I mainly do indie films here.
But I've worked on a couple withpeople kind of outside of the area and
yeah, Executive Producers, a lot oftimes they're either giving money or

(11:16):
they're some kind of big connection.
A lot of times , actors, they'll givemoney and then they'll have a little
creative input or something like that.
So yeah, Executive Producersare definitely powerful.
But they're not doing the bootson the ground work usually.
They'll oftentimes help, some will helpwith paperwork, those sorts of things.
They're doing very high end things.
And then, Co Producers yeah, sothey're helping with the Producer.

(11:39):
A lot of times they'll have specificportions of a movie they're helping
with, like much bigger sets.
A Producer I worked with, she was on AGhost Story and she was telling me, she's
like, yeah, I ended up starting as anactress and they needed a lot of producing
help and I do a lot of producing so Ijust helped them with this portion of the
film and I became a Co Producer on it.
So yeah, sometimes Co Producersusually helps with producing tasks

(12:01):
and I oversee them so they do alittle bit of everything but I know
on a lot of other films they'll justbe helping with a certain portion.
A movie I did a couple summersago, I helped with the Michigan
portion of the shoot because theyshot in three main locations.
And so I was a Co Producer.
But I only worked on the Michigan part.
That helps me define it.
Thank you so much.
So in thinking about this we knowthat obviously a Producer different

(12:22):
from a Director but to our listenersout there, How is it distinctly
different from a Director?
Yeah, this is my favorite thing becauselove you mom, but she constantly is
like, Oh yeah, Breana's a Director.
And I'm like, I am not a Director mom.
I always say to people that aProducer and a Director relationship

(12:42):
is like a work marriage.
You just need to know each other insideand out, and so they work very closely
together, but I think the main thingthat separates a Producer is just
that they're focusing on logistics.
There's creative elements to it,especially working with a Director,
but you are focused on the logistics,you are focused on all of the minute

(13:04):
details, even sometimes down to, did youguys figure out where to put the trash?
And so I think that's the biggestdifference that separates them is, yeah
they're looking at all of these small,minute details, they're making sure
that this business, each film is likea business, so this business is being
formed, and the Director is just tryingto think about the vision, and talk with

(13:24):
the actors, and focus on these creativeelements Gillian, hit me with more.
My notes that I'm looking at literallysay Director's creative vision
and Producer's logistic vision.
So agreed a thousand percent.
And I think it's always an excitingdynamic when you're working with a
new Director because you get to reallyfigure out what the process looks like.

(13:47):
And that's always a fun time seeinghow different people work together.
And I think that leads into just yourcrew relationships in general, like as
a Producer, you're just looking to alwaysfind what people need in order to do their
job best and a lot of times a Directoryou're trying to separate things from
the Director in terms of problems thatmight come up or things that you can't do.

(14:09):
In pre production
you're being as realisticas possible for sure.
So they're aware of what they can do andhow they want their project to come out.
But then once it hits like productiontime, you're acting as a wall to keep
things away from them, so they can reallyfocus on what matters to them, which
is the creative compared to all the,where the trash goes type of problems

(14:31):
that you have when you go to a location.
So thinking about that you guys mentionedpre production, and thinking about
trying to be as realistic as possible,you tell people yes, you tell people no.
When you get a new project, nomatter if it's like, corporate, or
indie film, or that kind of stuff,what's your first initial thought?
Like, what are, like, Top couplethings that your brain immediately
thinks of okay, let's get this started.

(14:51):
Like, what do I need to checkoff in my mental checklist
before we get into this project?
For me, it's often locations.
Because having availabilityof what you're trying to do.
Film is a visual medium and so the storythat you're telling heavily relies on
where you're recording and there's oftena lot of constraints in independent

(15:11):
filmmaking on budgets to rent locations.
Budgets to pay for travel to locations,budgets to get art and production design
for the locations that you're in sothat's always where I like to start.
When I'm reading a script or workingwith someone new, working on a new
project is where are we going to be?
And is that as crucial to the storyas the Director may think, or is

(15:34):
there certain ways to work aroundwhat they're looking to shoot?
Yeah, and then you said justlike when you're even thinking
about joining a project, right?
Like What are the first things?
Yeah, I'm going to do this projector if the project's just started and
someone's given it to you what dowe need to immediately think about
before we really dive into like,hey, what's the vision of this?
yeah I think for me similar thing toGillian is like I of course always ask

(15:57):
for the script before you sign on toa project Unless like Joel I've worked
with enough times like, cool, I'm in.
But I think my main thing is, yeah,I get a script, I read through it,
and when I'm reading through it, Iread through it once just to be like,
Let's figure out what this is about.
Let me see how I feel about it andthen the second time I read through it
I usually do it on my ipad because Ican take quick notes and i'll note out

(16:18):
specific locations or weird props thatwe might need and I I usually am like
what is the hardest part to do is itthis weird machine that we need to build?
Is it they want to film in theTaj Mahal I'm like what is going
to be the hardest thing to figureout and can I figure it out?
And if not is the Directorgoing to budge on it at all?

(16:40):
How can we get creative?
And then I go back to the Directorand I just talk with them.
And i'm like what is this relationshiplike because to me no matter how cool
a project is if I don't mesh wellwith the maybe other producers on
board or with the director themselves.
It's not going to be beneficial foranyone because as a Producer, I need

(17:01):
to know that I am going to have agood relationship with all of the
people working side by side with me.
So that way the people under me,that I am helping make this project,
are taken care of and they feel likethey have a good team above them.
So yeah, I've definitely said no toprojects before because I think the
people are great, but I'm like, theway you want to make this movie is

(17:24):
maybe different than how I would doit, and I don't want us to waste time.
Yeah.
I think that's a great point.
Filmmaking, as we all know,is very, cohesive and it
relies heavily on teamwork.
And I could not agree more thatyou have to enjoy the people you're
doing it with and enjoy the processbecause at the end of it, you
won't be as happy with the product.
Even if it's beautiful, even if it'sstunning, even if, you're super proud

(17:46):
of it in terms of how it turned out,you want to have the good memories
because at the end of the day,you're with the same people for 12
to 14 hours for however many days.
So that's a great point.
Yeah, because you can love the people ona project or be best friends with someone,
but if you don't work well together, thisprobably isn't a great idea for everyone.
Yeah, and so many film friendshipsare both personal and professional.

(18:08):
So it's, you're always riding the balanceof understanding what people have going
on in their personal life and how you'reasking them to work on professional
things and juggling the emotional aspect?
I don't know if that's the right word,but you're always in this middle ground
and that's actually, Breana, consideringyou said you wanted to work in therapy

(18:29):
and things like that there you go.
You're kinda a little bit ofbalancing and juggling how everyone's
communicating and what can getdone based on what people can do.
I have to agree with that as well becauseit's not only boundaries, but it is
really even if you want to work with yourfriends, they could be your best friends.
They could be like, just, Oh my gosh,I love hanging out with these people.
But the second that you get on setand you need to like, get a lighting
set up, you need to get the cameraready and people are barking orders.

(18:50):
That is what it's like on set, andsometimes people will mesh together
really well and understand theurgency at hand to get the shot.
And sometimes it just doesn't mix welland I feel like that is really good to
know because you could really want to workwith your friend group, and I've had this
happen to me myself where we had a filmthat we were shooting, it was a little
passion project, and on day two was great.
Day one, we messed around for about twoand a half hours, and the director got

(19:12):
really mad at us because she was like,you need to stop dilly dallying, and I was
like, okay, we need to focus and lock in.
So there's definitely a really goodaspect of that to just keep in mind
between sets as people go through.
So in thinking about that Breana,I know that you mentioned when we
talked about you looking over a scriptand wondering, Hey, is the director
going to push and pull on this?
Are they going to be willing to budge?
Because we know someone can be reallycreative, but sometimes an idea

(19:35):
isn't always immediately feasible.
So with that how do you go aboutbalancing creative visions with
financial and logistical constraints,because we know that financial stuff,
specifically during indie filmmaking,can really make or break something.
Yeah, I think my biggest thing is, outof school it was just the aspect of never

(19:56):
just saying no, which sounds horrible.
You can't just say yes to everything.
I'm not a yes woman by any means,but if you can't do something in
your head, you're like, no, we can'tdo that, which is probably true.
You probably can't do it.
But it's I don't seehow this is plausible.
This is what I think we could do.
What are you envisioning becausesometimes a director already
has an idea for how to do it.

(20:18):
When I was working on my first featurewith Brennan Huizenga, the dude gave
me a script based in the 1960s and Iwas like, We have no money, Brennan.
How are we going to makea complete period piece?
And he was like, Oh, Ialready got it covered.
My grandpa's got a classic car.
I'm really good at VFX.
I can do this and this.
And I was like, all right, cool.

(20:40):
And so there were things he had tocompromise on and I would be like.
We can't do that because it will cost10, 000, but maybe we could do this.
And so yeah, it's not saying no outright.
It's what if we did this insteador tried this come with solutions.
Even if you're like, it's probablynot a great idea, at least give
them something to brainstorm off of.
Yeah.
And I think that's just like a goodthing to learn for film and for just

(21:04):
any professional career, honestly, isthat as you move into a real job, you
never want to just have a problem.
You're always looking to bringsolutions to conversations.
And that's a really good point.
That's just a great thing to learnwhether you want to be a Producer
or a DP or an audio engineer.
You got to have your backups onbackups ready to go so you can always

(21:26):
perform to the best of your abilitywhen you're working on something.
Yeah, this reminded me it's reallyeasy to constantly be reactive,
but you have to remind yourselfto be proactive, never reactive.
So it's like, coming up with thosesolutions as being proactive, trying to
figure it out instead of just reacting.
Yeah, the more you produce, the moredetails you learn I don't have a

(21:49):
really specific checklist, it's allup in the noggin these days, but if
Producers were to truly write outevery detail that you have to be aware
of for a shoot, it's a lot pages longand it's just constantly getting into
the practice of thinking about allthe little details and like Breana
said being as proactive as possible.
So you don't come into a situationwhere you have a big problem.

(22:12):
. In thinking of stuff with pre productionthis is such a big question that I
swear everyone struggles with keyfactors that go into funding for films.
Where does money come from, what'slegal, what's not, maybe strategies
for marketing, perhaps, just, becausewe don't want to gamble to earn money.
Oh no, I guess I'll start.

(22:32):
I will say as a Producer, crowdfundingis my least favorite part.
Money stresses me out.
So if it stresses you out,just remember, almost every
Producer is stressed out by it.
But yeah, I think the biggestthing I learned when I was leaving
college, is there is a big differencebetween something like GoFundMe
and a crowdsourcing platform.
I've only used Seed and Spark.

(22:54):
But the biggest thing islike GoFundMe, you are not
supposed to provide incentives.
That's like a whole different legal thing.
There's a couple ofdifferent ways you can do it.
But I think the biggest thing is justhaving really good visuals, a good
pitch, explaining your story, and reallytelling people why it matters at all.
The newer generations, they careabout meaning and that what they're

(23:16):
doing is going towards something.
And so it's really talking to thepeople you're asking money from
and telling them where the money'sgoing and why it should matter.
And yeah, incentives are a big part ofthat, oh, you can get a copy of the movie,
or sometimes people are just like if youdonate more than ten dollars, one of the
dollars goes to this fund that's relatedto the movie, that'd be a cool idea.

(23:37):
Maybe you're not getting allthe money, but that's cool.
But there's also a way you canget 501c3 so that way, they
can write it off on their taxes.
I did not do this for Collins Film.
And another movie I was on had it nonprofit status, but I didn't do it.
But you can do that.
There are multiple different companiesthat are 501c3s that you basically,

(23:58):
from what I know, you apply to them.
If they accept your script, the moneyhas to go through them and they do
somewhat monitor how the money is spent.
So you have to keep up on your receipts,but you should be doing that anyways.
But that is a really cool way if youare planning ahead to, have a bigger
incentive for people to donate, especiallylarger sums of money because they're
like, I can write this off of my taxes.

(24:19):
That's a big part about moving intobigger producing work is like accounting
and taxes and things like that.
Which is just a whole nother discussion.
But yeah, we used for my last featurefilm, "Walter Grace and the Submarine",
we had a donator that went through theGotham that collects the money and
then sends it back and then they getthe tax write off so it is possible.

(24:42):
I think in person eventsoften get people excited.
For my last short film we did like aEuchre tournament because we're all
Michiganders at the end of the day, right?
So why not have a Euchre tournament?
Half the money goes to the winners.
Half the money goes to the production.
We did a fundraiser concert.
That one, fair warning, if you'reproducing a film and then you also choose

(25:05):
to produce an entire concert, you're kindof like really adding to your workload.
So keep that in mind,learned that the hard way.
But it was a fun event where we got peopleto come out to a bar and basically charge
admission that then went to the film.
If you have any, artist friends, Iknow a lot of people will do, art
auctions through social media, but,you have to think about getting the

(25:26):
art to people, like, basically everyidea you have, even if it's a great
idea, it's gonna come with more work.
So the first chunk of producingwill really just be fundraising,
like Breana mentioned, I also reallydon't like fundraising because it
is a little stressy and it feels alittle weird to ask people for money.
So you have to balance this thing wemight not totally enjoy, but at the end

(25:48):
of the day, all that work will pay offbecause we'll have the funds to do what
we really want to do, which is workon the creative and the production.
So you can get creative with it.
There's different ways to do it.
It's just finding the balancebetween the time you have and
how much money you need to make.
Yeah, what you guys didfor that short was so cool.
I was very impressed.

(26:10):
Because not only were you raisingmoney for your film, but you were
also showcasing and highlightingartists in the community, which I
just think is the coolest thing youcould do because it's just one art
form raising up other art forms.
Thank you.
That's really sweet.
Yeah, it was for our film.
Breana mentioned Seed and Spark, afteryou guys did Seed and Spark for the
Collins film, I jumped on and then didit for Walter Grace and the Submarine.

(26:32):
So you're really just like buildinga community here and figuring out
what works for the people and howyou can try to emulate that because
everyone is really hard workers.
The Michigan film scene's really cooland it's cool to be a part of the boots
on the ground community around here.
Gillian, I know that youmentioned the idea of accounting.
Which probably sends a chilldown a lot of people's spines.

(26:54):
We're film majors.
Not all of us are goodat math and that's okay.
But with that, would you say that is oneof the biggest challenges, getting into
larger scale productions as a Producer?
And if there are any other big challengesthat you guys are thinking of, we
throw those on the table because Iknow that keeping receipts is not fun.
Yeah, I think the key is always thesecond a receipt is in your hand,

(27:17):
you take a picture of it immediately.
Because the way I always do receipts isI just have an ongoing spreadsheet that
lists, the date, who bought it, whereit came from, a link to the receipt,
what it's going to be used for andthen you just build it out day by day.
Having someone potentially maybe likea PA or someone on set that can maybe
be doing that if you're off doingother things, because you put it off

(27:40):
for a day or two, or you put it offall the way until post production.
And that's a very scary thing.
So constantly keeping up on receiptsand, where money is being moved.
Like I always know if any money is comingout of the account, I'm listing what
exactly it was for and where it wentbecause next thing you know it's February
and it's tax season and you're tryingto get your account all the information

(28:03):
and if you're trying to recall whenyou filmed six months ago, bad news.
I think I had that happen recentlyon a production where we had just
wrapped on filming, and two days laterI get a receipt for 50 dollars and
reimbursement, and then also, the nextday, another one for 30 dollars for
reimbursement, and I was like, oh crap.
So I definitely feel that.

(28:24):
Breana, do you have any insights on thatfor any sort of big challenges if it is
receipts, that's perfectly fine as well.
Yeah, this is definitely themost fun part of producing.
Hands down that was sarcasm guys.
It's not but it's a necessary evil.
I will say I got really luckybecause I made a friend in
college who is an accountant.
And they do not specialize in filmaccounting, but they taught me a lot.

(28:46):
And so I'm very grateful for them.
There are services you can use to helpyou, but if you don't have the money
to pay for that, there's definitelyways to get around it for free.
But.
Yeah, I would say the biggest thingthat's helped recently is we started
implementing this at Summer Film.
I didn't even make it.
It was Jenna who works at GrandValley, but we have a Summer Film

(29:06):
card binder because, Gillian, I don'tknow if you've experienced this, but
someone always ends up losing the card.
And half the time they find it,but they always end up losing it
and they're like, where's the card?
I have a friend who PAs a lotand the card fell in the crevice
between my car door and my seat andit took me 20 minutes to find it.
And so we have a card binder.

(29:27):
I think it's here right now.
Cause we're about to start Summer Film,but, yeah, it's like a little binder.
It has the card, any pertinentinformation that you might need on it.
We don't usually keep the pin in therejust in case if you lost the whole binder.
I don't want people using thecard because they know the pin.
Granted you could still probablyuse it, but one safety factor.
But it's got the card in it.

(29:48):
If you're having problems, call thisnumber, which is usually just me.
This is the zip code and then thingsyou can't purchase on it because
there's sometimes restrictionsdepending how big the company is.
But then it also has a log.
So whoever checks it out hasto sign that they took it out.
They write what they were getting,the time, and it's genuinely so
helpful because you know how muchharder it is to lose an entire binder.

(30:10):
It's still possible, but you can findit, and so that helps a lot there is a
pocket for receipts, but I totally agreewith Gillian as soon as you get those
receipts back, take pictures because tothis day, sometimes I'll be like, for
my own personal freelancing stuff, I'llbe like, yeah, I like do this later.
I don't.
So do it when you have it.
Don't listen to yourself.
You might be wrong.
But yeah, the other thing I noted wasif you're doing it especially like a

(30:32):
big feature, be separating out thoseexpenses in the moment, because when it
comes to tax season, your accountantswill want you to have separated things
in different categories, like equipmentversus meals versus like pay if you're
paying people, so you need to have thosethings categorized already and I know
all of this sounds really stressful,but genuinely, It is okay to reach out

(30:55):
to people who are already doing this Idon't want to speak for Gillian, but I'm
assuming if you reached out to eitherof us, we would be happy to give you
some notes anything that we already had.
Anyone in Michigan, most of us,we want to share knowledge because
that's how we learn things.
So don't be afraid to ask people andmaybe make a friend in accounting,
while you're at Grand Valley.
Yeah, spreadsheetexamples are super useful.

(31:19):
And you can make them pretty.
That's one fun thing aboutaccounting is the spreadsheets.
You can make them super cute.
You can add colors.
You can do whatever you want with it.
And so then maybe when you'reopening up and you're putting in
receipts and you're not having themost fun, you're in an environment
where you're enjoying the visuals.
And that makes it just alittle bit better every time.
Cause you gotta do it either way.
So might as well make it look good.

(31:41):
Feels a lot better knowing that,you know, it could be nine in the
morning and you could be putting innumbers over and over again, but your
spreadsheet could be pink and thatjust makes things a little bit better.
You could add a little bit of glitterjust in case, I feel like that's really
lovely to think about and it's reallygood to think about because quite
often as students, I know that we don'talways think about the idea of taxes
and tax season in the film industry.

(32:01):
For people, especially who are lookingfor freelance work and are looking for
those passion projects to be like, thisis something to consider is you will
have to do a little bit of what we mightcall busy work and it's not really bad.
But it is just something that'spart of the overall process.
So to wrap up on the idea oftalking about Indie filmmaking
and passion projects and stuff.
Do you guys have a best moment froman indie film or moments, perhaps.

(32:27):
Every time you do a project you have likenew favorite moments because it's just
always so great working with the people.
But my most recent one is with, The shortfilm, It Might Get Weird, is that it
was a one shot, it was a ten minute oneshot, so it was a lot of rehearsal and a
lot of everyone crossing their fingers.
And it was also a night shoot,it was an overnight shoot.

(32:49):
And so one of my favorite moments, onset was when we finally got the take
and we were like, yes, we did it.
Like five minutes after we'relike, like clanking champagne
glasses, the sun is rising.
So we're like, thank God, becausethe lighting would have been messed
up if we did that one more time.
And then.
We were shooting on a cabinup north and it was on a lake.

(33:11):
And so then the whole crew justwent out and watched the sunrise
and drank champagne and just liketalked about all the hard work we
just put in the last three days.
And it's really moments like that, whereyou get through it and you're really
happy with the product and you get tocelebrate with the people that made it
possible because every single personon set does a really important job.

(33:31):
So those are always my favorite moments.
It's like there's somany good moments on set.
I will say that like I could probablyjust talk for hours about all the
people and how much fun we had thefirst thing that came to my mind
was just like working on indie sets.
You're not always stayingin the nicest places.
But the people are always great.
And so yeah, the film I worked on a couplesummers ago that I was co producing on.

(33:55):
We ended up filming in Marquette andI almost forgot it's been too long.
But our makeup artist came from Germanybecause she was friends with the Director.
And so she flew out from Germany.
There's people from all over the place.
The other Co Producer, she was stayingin Chicago at the time, but lived in
California and now lives in London.

(34:15):
And a little over a year ago, I planneda trip, and I'd never been out of the
country, flew to London, met up withEmily, the Co Producer, and then hung out
in London for a week, and then we bothflew to Germany, and hung out with Yanina,
the makeup artist in Berlin for a week,and that's just genuinely one of the best
moments ever, because we were all justworking on this movie, became friends and

(34:40):
now have a whatsapp group chat and I flewacross the ocean by myself because I just
love them so much now and I think that'sone of my best moments is just all the
friendships that come from these sets.
Those are all wonderful moments.
Oh my goodness.
That actually, that is so lovely to hear.
And especially again, like the peoplethat you meet and the friends that you

(35:02):
can make from these types of things,it isn't necessarily yes, it is work,
but like it's a community of people.
And it just, it feels so good to knowthat out there are people and filmmakers
who not only are passionate about thework that they do, but they're really
passionate about the relationshipsthat they create with others.
And that we all come together becausewe want to make something great.
And it's wonderful to hear.

(35:22):
So to turn from that a littlebit, we're going to get into
corporate and commercial producing.
Which, depending on how youlook at it, could be the more
or less fun subject of this.
So it really is just subjective onto that.
We're gonna go through a couple of thesame questions that we had beforehand.
Just thinking about the differencebetween producing for corporate
commercial work versus indie if younotice any stark differences between

(35:46):
the two other than, getting paid fora job instead of crowdfunding for
it, but anything else that you mightthink of just like right off the bat.
I don't want to say the level ofprofessionalism because you're
always professional on set.
But in terms of how you're communicatingwith clients is obviously very
different than a passion project.
You're trying to help them reach theirgoal, and it's often a little less

(36:09):
cohesive than an independent project.
And you're often on tighter deadlines.
I think, yeah, one of the biggest thingsis when I first came out of college,
like I didn't take Producing for Clients.
For what reason?
I don't know.
I learned a lot about just, like,even writing emails like I said, I
like to talk, so my emails were verylofty and one of the first things my

(36:32):
boss taught me was, get to the point,so a lot of it's just structure like
that, that maybe you're not used to.
I think with commercial work, likeyou were saying, Gillian, is just
working with the client so closely andreally keeping up that relationship.
Also, I don't know about on your end,but for me, often clients do not respond

(36:52):
if they're busy because this is just onething on their plate but this is my entire
job and I'm like I need you to give methe notes on this video so like a big
difference there is it's like you're ona deadline and you're also waiting for
someone else and it can be very stressfulbecause it's not just a filming day and
then you're in post production for awhile and there's no firm deadline per se.
You are on a deadline and half thetime you're not even waiting on you.

(37:14):
It's the client and I totallyunderstand they are working on a
million different things and youare just one of their priorities.
But yeah, that's a big difference.
Sometimes I'm like, I've emailedthem twice and they haven't answered.
Yeah, no, I agree 100 percent and likegiving a lot of grace to clients as well
because Breana mentioned like this is ourwhole world so we're constantly thinking

(37:35):
about all that stuff, but on their endthey're thinking about what they do
and this is just a little part of it.
So always finding the right balance ofgiving them all the information they
need to make their best decisions.
But then also never overflowingthem with information they
don't really need to know.
And so the email point is exactlythe same, whether it's an email
or whether it's in person, you'rejust trying to figure out the right

(37:56):
balance of information constantly.
. I think when you work on narrativefilms, everybody knows what's going
on, everybody's got the same idea, orsimilar plans, but yeah, with client
work, you are the expert in this.
Sometimes you have to explain howa production day is going to go.
Or you have to explain the processto them at the beginning a lot
of times if it's a new client.

(38:17):
So yeah, it's fun that you're theexpert and you get to teach them about
filmmaking, and usually it's reallyfun for them because a lot of them
are in corporate work, and when wehave clients on set, they're like,
Oh, do we get to use the slate today?
So yeah it's a lot more communicationat times, or you explain things
that maybe are just inherent to youat this point, but it's also fun.

(38:37):
You get to see filmmaking, and makingvideos through someone else's eyes.
Yeah, we work in a very cool industry,and I personally forget it, and then
it is like getting to work with peoplethat are new to it, when you're like,
oh no, this is really cool, and I'm verylucky, and it's great to get to spread
that with new people, whether they'reclients, whether they're new people to
the film world, and often, clients don'tknow exactly what they're looking for

(39:02):
because they don't know the process.
So you're always a littlebit of a guiding light.
And then you wait for awhile for them to respond.
But when they do, we'rehopping back in immediately.
We're taking a short break totell you about the Dirk Koning
Memorial Film and Video scholarship.
Here's Gretchen Vinnedgeremembering Dirk Koning.
The Koning Scholarship enables studentsto get that kind of an education, to be

(39:24):
a good filmmaker, to be able to expresstheir voice and to continue Dirk's dream.
For more information, and todonate to the scholarship, visit
the link in the description.
Now, back to the show.
What skills do you guys think Producersare required to have to go into
commercial slash corporate producing.

(39:45):
Definitely organization a goodopen communicator because you have
to communicate with the client.
Usually a lot of times, like I'mthe point of contact for the client.
And so I also have to communicateall of that with the crew
also on the business end.
And so, yeah, you have tobe a good communicator.
But I guess my other one will say thatit's really important to me is that you

(40:07):
are a people person slash team player.
Yeah, no, that's definitely a big one.
It's a full ego aside type scenario.
And that's for commercialand for freelance.
Like, it's just always beingas empathetic as possible.
And that's just a good humanthing, but to each their own.
I would say.
Oh project management.
I'm a project manager comparedto a producer and there are

(40:29):
definitely some differences.
But with producing, you have multipleprojects going on and they're all
at different stages of production.
And so whether you're using a specificsoftware, whether you make your own cool
spreadsheet, like however you want to doit works great, but you definitely need
to have, I would say, and I think it'sreally important to have a good system for

(40:49):
organizing your thoughts and what needs toget done and to do's for different things.
Because you got a lot of details to keeptrack of and you forget one little thing
you, miss responding to one email, likethree days go by, like in the corporate
world, three days is a long time.
And so preparing best as possible.
So you always know where everythingis at, no matter what project you're

(41:10):
talking about is really important.
Gillian, I had no idea whenI graduated, like I know now,
what the true difference betweenproducing and project management is.
I think you should give, a quickexplanation to people because I think it
would have helped me so much if I knew.
For sure.
I would say I know all companies worka little differently but I'll just talk
to how like Ideology works specifically.
We have Project Managersand we have Producers.

(41:33):
The process starts off with a PM anda Producer and a Creative Director
working together to see what theclient wants to do, having that
kickoff meeting, Creating the budgetwriting the estimate, things like that.
And then as it shifts into preproduction, the Producers, they're
doing the scheduling, they're payingto film, they're gathering crew

(41:54):
and cast and all of those things.
And then they are the onesactually on set filming.
And the Project Manager is just supportingwhatever possible and then once we get
into post production the Project Managerwill often take more of a bigger role
because that's when I would say like aschedule really sits in, in terms of you
have three rounds of revisions a lot ofclients require compliance files, whether

(42:19):
that be like audio descriptions or VTTso you're planning for things like that,
you're getting those things, once thevideo's wrapped, and then you're also
double checking paperwork because youhave talent releases, VO releases, music
license, stock licenses, like you're justtouching all of the extra details that
comes to wrapping up a project in thecorporate world and different clients all

(42:42):
require different things, so often you'refiguring out what each person requires for
archiving, I imagine different companiesdo it differently, but Producers, mostly
pre production, a little bit of post,and Project Managers handling the
support and making sure everything'sgetting checked off along the way.
Do you guys have any stories ofyour biggest challenges working with

(43:05):
commercial producing, or best moments?
I think working in spaces that arepublic spaces, or there's other people
around, is always an interesting one.
I am mid twenties now, but ifI'm working on an independent
project and we're filming inpublic, we're student filmmakers.
Cause people are justmore lenient with that.
Obviously rights and usage are one thing.

(43:26):
But if you're just in an areathat flies that's a good thing.
But then with client work, you have toshoot everything that you need to shoot.
They're paying for a production day.
And if you miss something infreelance work, you could potentially
add an extra quarter day or halfday or shift some things around.
And so making sure that whereveryou're filming, you can get through

(43:47):
what you need to get through.
There can be people around,there can be a lot of noises,
there can be a lot of traffic.
So paying attention to how a shootmight be held up when you're scouting
or when you're planning you canget yourself in trouble there.
Yeah, scope of work is superimportant in pre production for sure.
Because sometimes the clientswill even come with big ideas and

(44:09):
you're like, this is a great idea.
Our current scope andbudget allows for this.
If we wanted to do thisis how much it would cost.
So I guess I couldn't think of like aspecific example off the top of my head.
I'll think of it laterand be like, dang it.
But that's honestly, I wasn'tsomeone who was always super
comfortable talking money.
And so that was a challenge atfirst be like very upfront about

(44:29):
costs and how to communicate thateffectively and professionally.
And so that was definitely a challenge.
But one really fun moment I didhave on set was we were doing
a commercial for a company.
They needed clips for the Today Show.
And they were like, maybewe'll use it in future things.
And so we were like, okay.
And they wanted dogs in it.

(44:49):
And it was really last minute.
And so I was like, we can use my dog.
He's smart.
He can roll over.
And the guys were like, all right, cool.
So we get this location this house.
It has an upstairs, but it's all just oneroom and yeah, we were just hanging out,
upstairs getting ready for a shot andI was like, my dog will just hang out.
No, have someone there towatch the dog at all times.

(45:11):
Because it had a half wall for where thestairs were, and my dog just thought it
was a really big ledge he could walk on.
So he jumped over the ledge andflew down the flight of stairs.
And it was fine, but it was stillto this date the craziest thing
that's ever happened on a set.
I didn't think he would jump over arailing and fly down to the bottom

(45:31):
of the stairs and then just get up.
But yeah, it was prettyfunny once he was okay.
That's great.
That's amazing.
Just thinking about differences betweenbeing a freelance Producer, being an
employee Producer, this does lend itselfto the idea of again, indie filmmaking
versus corporate work and stuff like that.
Do you guys see any differences?
Because I know that you do botha little bit of freelance work.
A lot of us probably coming ofthose who are graduating, we're

(45:54):
probably going to be in post gradand looking for freelance work.
Is there anything that you noticed withinyour first couple of years of being
in the industry that might have been abig difference between those two roles.
Yeah, I moved right into employeework after college and I think that
was extremely useful for my freelancebecause I actually got first hand

(46:18):
experience of how to solo produce aproject under the umbrella of safety and
learning of professionals in my company.
And so I think that was a reallycool experience because when
you're freelance producing, likeyou're tippity top, you are client
connection, you are doing everything.
And so you really got to have agood gauge on how to do things.

(46:39):
Producing throughout college and thenseeing how you can assist and learn from
other professionals will benefit you a lotwhen you start building connections enough
to just get your own freelance projects.
Yeah.
I've been all over the place.
When I first started atIngalls, I was just helping out.
I was very open to beingable to do my own projects.
And so I was a freelancer originally 1099.

(47:02):
But as I started doing more workI became an employee just because
a big factor of that is if, areyou working there long term?
Is it taking up a majority of your time?
Like there are, legal stipulationsto those things that you can
look up if you're ever in asituation where you're like.
Should I be an employee?
Blah blah blah.
In my opinion now, thisis totally my opinion.
I didn't find it was worth it to befreelance on commercial work unless I knew

(47:28):
I was making more than like 100k a year.
Just because the taxes are a lot whenyou're a 1099 worker, you have to
save like 25 percent of your income.
So if you're making100k, you gotta save 25%.
And I know a lot of Cam Ops and DPs, it'sreally good for them because they can
make a lot of money around here doing it.
And then they can write off alot because they have a lot of

(47:50):
equipment and things like that.
But for a Producer, , Idon't need a big camera.
Like, I can't write that off.
What am I gonna write off?
I could get a new computer, but Idon't need a new computer all the time.
And so the taxes were just abysmal.
They were killing me.
I don't recommend it if you'retrying to have stability.
Also because if you're a 1099,employee, which is, freelancing,

(48:12):
you usually don't get healthcare.
You have no true protection.
Liability is a big factor.
If you are a freelancer, theliability is usually mainly on you.
Because companies will protectthemselves and they, especially big
companies, will not protect you.
So with that, if you're going to be afreelancer, it is a very good job as well.
Especially if you are smart it'sa very good way to make money.

(48:35):
But be smart, read your contracts.
Even as an employee, readyour fricking contracts.
I don't read the terms and conditionswhen I agree to whatever Apple asks me.
And that's fine.
No one does.
But read your contracts whenyou're signing away your labor.
And yeah, just be aware of whatyou need to do to protect yourself.
Because as a freelancer, youare a business, you are a

(48:57):
product and it's important.
It's giving you the stability.
Even just the smallest things of likewhen you're filling out paperwork to
give to a company, you can get an EIN,which is an employee identification
number, and it's protecting you fromputting your social security number
on all of these pertinent documents.
A lot of times you need it to start abusiness banking, I'm probably butchering

(49:22):
this someone who talks about this fora living was probably like girl what but
genuinely it's creating you as a business,and it's gonna make your life easier.
If you were to get sued if you arekeeping your finances separate for your
business from your personal like gettingpaid you get paid through the business
account and then you pay yourself.
I think that was absolutely wonderful.
I agree a hundred percent.

(49:42):
And I'm also learning every time, everyfreelance job, you learn more and more
about how to better handle things.
So it's accepting that, that learning isgoing to come throughout the years anyway.
So you just got to be excited to,to take every day by day for sure.
I feel like that's really helpfulfor a lot of our listeners out there
who are like getting into stuffbecause I know a lot of people who

(50:04):
are interested in freelancing, butit's also you're basically starting
your own business for yourself.
So it is something to take into account.
Not trying to deter anyone from doingthat at all because if you have the
ambition for it, 100 percent go for it.
But it definitely is somethingto take into consideration both
the pros and cons that come withemployment versus freelance.
It can be a two in one if you would like.
You can have a corporate joband you can do content creation

(50:26):
on the side if you really want.
If you make monetary value of it good job.
Yeah, I think ambition is a really goodword to use because when you're working
freelance, you are hunting for your work.
You're building connections, you'reusing networks, you're in a lot of
Facebook groups, you're on a lotof job websites where people put up
open positions for freelance work.

(50:48):
And so it's just understanding that everyday you're making your own schedule and
you're deciding today, these are the tasksI do, and this is what I have to do in
order to make money to survive basically,which I know a lot of people thrive on
that, and it is a great way to go, andyou can often make a lot more money but
if you are someone who likes stabilityand just feeling a little more secure

(51:10):
in what you're doing, an employee routemight make a little more sense for you.
Yeah, and keep in mind guys, whoever'slistening I think both of our experience
is mainly based in Michigan, specificallyGrand Rapids, so it could be totally
different elsewhere, but as a Producerspecifically, just keep that in mind.
It could be totally different,especially in a film hub area.
Yeah, I think producing freelance rightout of college is gonna be a little

(51:34):
more difficult than trying to likecam up and grip and things like that.
So it's just understandingwhere you thrive and how
much time you want to put in.
But I know many Producers that startoff working for a company and then once
they build their repertoire and theyknow their shit, if you will, they'll go
freelance because they're ready for it.
So it's always, you can alwaysgo back and forth as well.

(51:56):
Like the world's your oyster, we're stillyoung, who knows what we're gonna do.
For real.
No, I agree with that 100%.
So lean into that.
I know that we've looked at a lot ofdifferent things to think about whether
going freelance or employee with that,just for overall advice for anyone
who wants to get into producing, whothat might be, it might be something
that kind of interests them, butthey're not really sure what to start

(52:18):
focusing on, specifically in learning,whether that's teaching themselves via
the internet or taking classes at GV.
I know that we have Producing for Clientshere, of course, but what skills do you
think that people might need for thisand what things should they focus on?
Accounting 101.
And that can even be likea community college class.

(52:38):
You can go home for the summer and justdecide to take whatever your local CC
is just to get a general understanding.
And also while you're in college, you'rein Fiction one, you're in Fiction two,
you're around these people every day.
Start building your network, startfinding out how you work, how other
people work, who you work well with,build your boundaries that you know

(52:59):
that you're going to have in yourprofessional life, because now is really
the time to start connecting with people.
And then once you all graduate, youall start taking different paths.
People work for a company, some peoplego freelance, people move to Chicago,
to LA, to New York, some people stayhere, and it's just a great time to
start really building your network,when it comes down to it, because it's

(53:20):
built in, like everyone's there, somight as well use it while you have it
compared to graduating and then feelinglike you're starting completely anew.
Yeah, I love what you said aboutnetworking this is, shameless plug,
but Grand Rapids Film Society has asubstack, and we write for it, and
I ended up writing something aboutnetworking, when you're networking, I
would say the biggest thing is do notjust meet with someone because you're

(53:42):
like, they're gonna give me a job.
If that's all you're thinking out of it,It's not going to be a great connection.
When I network, I'm like,these people are in my field.
Like it could lead to something, butI'm just there to get to know them
as people because oftentimes yourconnections, it's not going to be
one meeting and then you get a job.
It's I met you a year ago andnow you have me in mind for this
job because you liked who I am.

(54:03):
I told you a story, we talked, we had fun.
So yeah, a lot of it's just networking.
Making work friends.
Don't go into it with I'm gonna meet withyou and then you're gonna give me a job.
And then what Gillian's sayingis, take all those classes.
When I was in school I took so manydifferent classes like I was taking
women and gender studies classes justcause I almost minored in it and then
I was like, ugh, then I'd have totake a lot of hard classes on, my last

(54:24):
semester but I took a lot of those.
I took a business class, but it didn'treally help me because I was already
managing a coffee shop and I was like,okay, so I already do all of this.
We were doing simulations andI was like, this is my job.
And then I took philosophy classes.
, I took Script two.
Joel was like, Breana,why are you in this class?
He was happy I was there, buttell us why you're in this class.
And I just said, because as aProducer, I work with every department.

(54:48):
And if I am supposed to be readinga script and helping with the
creative and doing all thesethings, I need to know what every
department does and how to do it.
Even if I'm a bad script writer,I should know how a script
works and how to write it.
So yeah, take a lot of classes, learna lot of things about life, because
film like, we're in an art form.
We're talking about it a lot aswork, because that's what producing
is, but film is an art form.

(55:10):
Toni Perrine who used to teachat Grand Valley always said film
imitates life and life imitates film.
And that's true.
So when you're making something,although you might think it might not
affect people or real life, it does.
And if you're making a storyabout a woman, taking that
WGS class could really help.
Yeah, all those different things.
Just learn about life.
You only got one.

(55:30):
So yeah, end of monologue.
Take a lot of classes, learna lot of things because we are
making art at the end of the day.
Yeah.
And like you've mentioned, you'vedone a lot of student films,
quote unquote, but student filmsare films like you are doing it.
You are making something.
You are creating something thatyou're proud of that you can submit to
festivals, take that seriously becauseit feels just like a class project,

(55:55):
but it's really your opportunityto learn and to figure things out.
So take those things seriously andenjoy it because you'll come to a
point where, you don't have to makethose things and you're maybe going to
miss the opportunity you had to spendtime with other filmmakers like that.
I love that.
It reminded me when I was a seniorin college, I was telling Joel,
like, when I become a Producerand he was like, stop right there.

(56:17):
And I was like, Oh no, what did I do?
And he was like, you are a Producer.
Hold yourself to that value and valueyourself because you are a Producer,
you've done it, you can do it.
So yeah, I love that.
I feel like those areall really good things.
And especially, in thinking of,people get a little confused sometimes
when I tell them that I'm taking alighting class and a sound design
class and I'm also producing and I'malso taking this film studies course.

(56:41):
And they're like why areyou doing all these things?
And why did you only take script one?
And I'm like, again, youtouch every department.
So I feel like you should at least,you don't need to be an expert, but you
should at least know how that departmentworks and have a good gist of it that
like if something happens, it's not goingto go completely haywire because you're
like, no, I know how to go about this.
So I feel like that isreally good to think about.
And definitely, like you said, Breana,thinking about the sense of it is really

(57:04):
important to take those women in genderstudies class because to be able to
apply that to again, whether it's indiefilmmaking or it's a corporate commercial
or something like that, just being ableto think about it from that perspective,
I feel like is something that is, itreally does make those stories pop
and it really brings out the humanityin us as filmmakers and shows, life
through our eyes, which is really cool.
And just a beautiful thing to think about.

(57:25):
I love seeing that.
It's one of the reasons why Ilove watching GV student films.
It's I love going to showcase.
So I really do, I only have, I gotone last question for you guys.
So in thinking about this, whatexperiences did you have while
you were in school that havereally helped you in your career?
I was a very active member of GVTVand I really think that is the main

(57:47):
reason I'm where I'm at now becauseyou're able to join at any year, but if
you join as a freshman you're gettingto work on sets like, whenever you
start making projects, you can getin there right away on GVTV sets.
And it's a cool opportunity to feel outdifferent roles because in class, you're
often assigned a certain role once youget to a certain point in the program.

(58:09):
So you can still switch things up in GVTVand for producing specifically, like I
was able to join a show my freshman yearand become the Producer my sophomore year.
And I was able to join eboard.
I was on eboard for all threeyears and moved up from Social
Media to VP to President.
And those are just experiences whereyou're getting to lead people and

(58:30):
work with people and learn aboutfilmmaking, but also learn about a
leadership style and things like that.
So I'm super pro GVTV, check it out.
They always have cool stuff going on.
They have a really big discordof a lot of things happening.
It's a great community.
Of course I haven't been in therein five years, so I can't attest
to exactly how it's going now.

(58:50):
But my time there was, Isuper, super enjoyed it.
And my network of filmmakers andhonestly, my network of friends is still.
pretty much based on who I met in sodon't be afraid to look outside of class
as well to start gaining experience.
Now, thinking about it, I don't knowif it's specifically an experience,
but something that I always think I,didn't value as much as I could have was

(59:13):
honestly just having all that equipment.
I know sometimes, as a student, you'relike, this is all scratched up, or
doesn't work as well as I think it could.
But, when you get out, youhave to pay for equipment.
And you just have all of theseitems and tools at your disposal,
which you wouldn't have otherwise.
You don't have Premiere.
You don't have all these things.
So it's, really the experience that Iwould say is just having all of those

(59:37):
materials at my disposal and really takingadvantage of them because once you're
out you don't have those things and it'sso much harder to make a short film.
You don't even have to do it for class Ifyou want to make something make it because
all of those materials are free for youto use especially editing software, script
writing software those aren't thingsyou just inherently have after school.

(01:00:00):
And so I think that reallyhelped me it was much harder
without it to get things made
Renting is a very expensive thing.
I would say, currently on a projectthat I'm working on, we're actually
like, Yeah, let's rent a monitor.
And I'm like, how much doesit cost to rent a monitor?
Oh, yeah, insurance.
That's another big learning curve whenyou get out is insurance on things.
Joel has actually been tellingus about that more recently,

(01:00:21):
where hey, insurance is a thing.
You can get it for like a temporary thing.
You probably should because, if youbreak something in an Airbnb, you
don't really want to be sued, soit's, yeah, that is really good.
Thank you so much for all of the insight.
I appreciate all of your guys insightand experience on these types of things.
This will be helpful for alot of people, including me.
Yeah, that was really awesome.

(01:00:42):
And shout out the GR Film Societyand everything Breana does with them.
They're an amazing group right herein Grand Rapids, tons of events, the
newsletter, a super cool community,going to watch films, discussing films.
So another suggestion if you'rehere figure out who the people are
outside of school as well, becausethere's a really cool community and
the film society is one of them.

(01:01:03):
Oh thank you.
I did not petition heror pay her to say that.
It's because I love it.
I love going to events.
That's for the film society,
Yeah, I really enjoyed talking with you.
I learned stuff from Gillian today.
And yeah, even Gillian and I don'tget to work with each other a lot.
I don't know if we ever even have.
Thank you guys so much for coming.
Again, I appreciate you taking your time.
It was a pleasure to meet you guysand hopefully our listeners will
appreciate everything that you guyshad to offer and all your advice.

(01:01:25):
Yeah, it was awesome.
It was great speaking with you both.
Yeah.
Thank you for joining us for thisepisode of Alumni Live: The Podcast.
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(01:01:48):
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