Ep. 290 - Design leadership in startups with Hardik Pandya - Audiogyan

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
computer.
Welcome to Audiogan's new series,Designers Digest.
This series is created in partnership withGodrej Design Lab, a platform that
encourages and advances design excellenceand exploration.
Godrej Design Lab believes in power ofdesign to make a meaningful change.

(00:20):
I'm so happy and proud that Godrej DesignLab is supporting the journey of Audiogan.
Designers Digest series is about design asa profession, its daily grind, the secrets
of climbing the design ladder.
and what edge we need to thrive in thiscaptivating world of design.
So let's begin our today's episode.
Today I have a co-host with me, ShreyasSatish.

(00:41):
He's a founder of ownpath.com.
Own Path is a platform for designers toupskill and find community and unlock
exciting opportunities and also helpcompanies grow their design teams.
I had Shreyas as a guest in episode 218when I did a series called Where Are the
Designers?

(01:02):
influential design leaders from India.
So hello, Shreyas.
Welcome back to audio again and welcome asa co-host.
Hi Kedar, really excited to be here.
Awesome.
So as the series is about designers digestand about the daily grinds and stuff, so

(01:23):
we have a special guest, which is from ourdomain, designing digital products, and
also a common friend, Hardik Pandya.
He's a design leader with an innate lovefor building products with good design.
Currently he's a senior vice presidentdesign of the unacademy group.
Previously design lead at Google search, GSuite, Google cloud, Ola, and many more.

(01:48):
And we'll be deep diving into this theme.
So thanks Hardik for giving your time.
It's great to have you.
No, it's pleasure.
Glad we could make it happen.
Awesome.
Yeah.
By the way, Hardik, if you mute, right?
the track is cut off, so you can keep iton.
Oh, okay.
Okay.
So this is a matter of Zoom.

(02:08):
Okay.
So yeah, thanks, Adik for giving yourtime.
It's a pleasure to have you on the show.
No, I'm excited to be here.
I look forward to the conversation and I'mglad we could finally make it happen.
Yeah, absolutely.
So Sreyas, like I'll start off with arapid fire round, which I think you can be

(02:32):
like a guest for that, like an audience.
And Hardik, I don't know whether you sortof these might come across as a surprise
because in typically in audio game, I'mnot like very
into this rapid fire kind of a thing.
In fact, it's low fire.
But yeah, I borrowed few questions fromProst questionnaire, just 10.

(02:54):
And it's just kind of a warmup to startoff the conversation.
Cool.
Yeah, so what's your idea of happiness?
Is that for sure, yes, or me?
Okay.
And what's your idea of misery?
Oh, well, working on something I don'tlike.

(03:15):
Okay.
And what's your greatest fear?
Dying early.
That, okay.
I have a follow up question on that.
Okay.
Which living or dead person do you admirethe most?
of Steve Jobs, cliche.
Okay.
And what do you consider to be the mostoverrated virtue of say humankind also?

(03:41):
I'm trying hard to show everybody who, howgood of a person you are.
I think that's, it's very overrated.
Amazing, amazing.
Most important, now this is my favoriteone out of the 10 is like actually the
second favorite.
Which most important skill or talent orvirtue you think others should have?

(04:03):
Believe in themselves.
Okay.
And who is like looked up?
You said Steve Jock, but any other personin your profession or discipline?
Um, look up to many people.
I think, uh, funnily, I'll give you aslightly non-cliche answer.
I look up to the Japanese craftsmen who,uh, spend, uh, 30, 40 years in, in their

(04:27):
craft, honing, uh, you know, their ownskills and yet don't call them servants
experts in anything.
Right.
And it's like a lifelong pursuit of, uh,expertise and they never end up reaching
their, uh, as, as they claim.
So I look up to that level of obsession.
Amazing.
So Jiro's dream of sushi.
Okay.
Yeah.
What is your most marked characteristic?

(04:51):
Hmm.
Getting told.
Yeah, I would say being boisterous.
I mean, just saying things how they are.
I people kind of associate that with me.
So I like that.
Okay.
Second last one is how would you like todie?

(05:11):
In very old age, having fulfilled all mydreams and stuff that I've wanted to
accomplish personally and professionallyand then peacefully.
Hopefully not, not with a lot of drama.
Nice, nice.
And if you have, if you were to die andcome back as a person or a thing or
animal, I don't know, what would it be?

(05:33):
I would love to come back as an automaticwatch as a as a machinery that kind of
sits there gets passed on from generationto generation, you know, and just starts
coming back to life as soon as somebodyworthy wears it.
So that's a weird answer.
Awesome.
That's quite cool.
Okay, that was it.

(05:54):
Thank you.
Thank you for being a champ and havingthese questions.
Cool.
We'll start off with today's conversationand most of the stuff, I think I'll leave
it to Shreyas.
But I wanted to start with a more basicand fundamental question more of, yeah,
you can go philosophical if you want, butlike, who's a designer according to you

(06:18):
or?
Uh, actually cut.
I asked for all that.
Sorry.
Half piece cut.
Okay.
So I'll start off with the most, um, likeactually like understanding your
background, right?
You have been not, uh, not from a designschool per se.
So how did you get into design and like,what's your thoughts about this lateral

(06:39):
entrant people?
Uh, how are, how are your early days like,and, and kind of, would you also call it?
a similar journey for any lateral entrant.
Maybe that could be the starting point andwe'll see where it goes.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think.
So I'll give you an unconventional answerto this.

(07:01):
I had, I keep saying I had like seven,six, seven years of engineering education.
And honestly speaking, like right in themiddle of my masters, I started realizing
it was not for me.
I mean, I loved I love the subjects.
I love the studying part.
But the job that it had at the end of it,I mean, it was, it was very different from

(07:22):
what I wanted to do.
And you know how like people say, like,you should always have a career where the
world is headed, not where the world hasbeen.
Right.
And I felt like whatever I was learning,like the machineries and antenna systems
and, you know, telecommunication throughlike these, these giant, like, you know,
base stations that, that you would have tokind of go and get placed in.

(07:46):
It would have been a field job.
So I would have been like somewhere inEurope for working for like a telecom
company, you know, like a, like a stationhead, you know, and then that would have
been like a very interesting ladder.
I was like, maybe not, you know, it's,it's cold outside and I don't, I don't
like, I don't like working physicallyhard, you know, and so I started exploring

(08:08):
like computers and internet and stuff.
And I would consider myself lucky that lotof the
sort of market forces and where the worldwas headed aligned well at the time.
For example, like the iPhone had launchedat the time.
I've told you the story before, right?
Like I pestered my dad enough to get me aniPhone 4, you know, and this was the first

(08:30):
smartphone that I've had.
And I still have it with me.
You know, I have that iPhone 4 with me.
I kind of, it's like a nice piece, youknow, where it all started.
And that just fascinated me, right?
Like no new
mode of computing, you know, everythingthat goes, comes with it, like in terms of
history.
And all I wanted to do was have my own appon the phone, because I saw apps.

(08:54):
And I think App Store was already live bythen because I think App Store came up
with iPhone three or something if I'm notwrong.
So I was like, I need an app on the phone,you know, I want an app that that's there
that's that I have created.
So started like learning a little bit ofcoding.
Obviously I was doing like web developmentalready by then, right?
Like designed websites, built websites,HTML, CSS thankfully was easy enough.

(09:18):
And people are like quite okay being handson.
So I started doing that.
Objective C, I started learning that alittle bit, you know, and then that's kind
of what my entry to this entire world of,you know, design was.
If you remember that used to be like somereally popular Mac bloggers, you know, Mac

(09:38):
world, the conference that used to bethere, like the Apple conference.
Like that, that was like, wow.
Like what, what would it be like to kindof be there in, in Mac world, you know?
And, um, I remember following this guy,Marco Armand, who used to have like
Instapaper type apps over the years.
He ended up building a lot of stuff.
Uh, he used to share his Tumblr story.
Um, you know, these all were like apps andpeople making money from apps.

(10:01):
So I was like, yeah, that's.
kind of like the career that I want.
I don't know what to call it, but it doesseem to have design as an element in it.
Right.
So maybe, maybe that's, that's fine.
You know, and then there is somethingthere.
But honestly, like there were manypursuits like that at the time, right?
Like, okay, you can do this, you can dothat.
And then you realize like, okay, most ofthem don't have enough money or longevity

(10:22):
to call it like a career.
So that way I got lucky that at leastwhatever, like 11, 12 years later also
people still are okay paying money.
to whatever skills Shreyas, you and I, weall have, you know, and God knows how long
it goes on for.
But I think it's worked out okay.

(10:43):
So yeah, that's that was my sort of like aside entry to these things, you know, I
think if I hadn't gotten the MacBook fromlike a like a shitty MacBook at the time,
or let's say the iPhone or not, I don'tthink this would have been possible
because you had to really feel
these products in your hands, you know,and then like kind of use them to see how

(11:03):
meaningfully different they were.
And that's when that keyed off like, yeah,maybe, maybe I want to like do something
like this, you know, I want to be theperson who made or had some role in making
this, I want to be that person.
So that's, that's kind of how it started.
How I feel about these people, you know,who have a lateral entry, I think they
take it more seriously, I feel they takethe career more

(11:28):
Uh, what do you call, like, you know, howyou get something that you've always
wished for, but had no hope of getting,like you always cherish that.
You, you feel like, uh, you know, like,like you don't take it for granted, you
know, because it wasn't handed to you.
You kind of had to push your way through.
Um, and I feel, uh, I do feel that as alittle bit, obviously I come from a

(11:48):
privileged background.
I can't say that I didn't have a lot ofthe basics.
I think those are sorted, but more likethe confidence of, hey, I could be a
designer or let's say it is a career thatI can.
plumb my way through that all came justthrough sheer force of will.
And I respect everybody who has tradedthat journey because obviously they have
gone through the same kinds of self doubtand like, whatever doesn't work out and

(12:11):
then they still took the plunge.
So I like the people who come from, youknow, sideways and just break all the
walls and say like, Hey, here I am, youhave to take me seriously.
And I'm not gonna go away.
You know, you can ignore me but
What is that?
Yeah, you can you can I forgot thatphrase, but you can't ignore me rather.
So I like that.

(12:32):
I like that.
A lot of the people who come from designbackgrounds do have like a very different
type of a mindset.
I wouldn't say wrong.
It's just that it places thempsychologically slightly differently
compared to people who feel like they hadto, you know, somehow make it happen.
Because there was no other option.

(12:53):
I think a follow up to that.
What is the first app that you designed?
Very curious to know.
Yeah, I ended up making only one app andthat was a Bitcoin price tracker app.
Coincidentally, I also blew a lot of moneyin crypto over the years, but that time,
back in 2011, 12, was the time I wasactually able to make some money with

(13:16):
crypto and that time I...
I wanted to keep track of like Bitcoinprices because obviously I had, uh, you
know, a sizable amount of investmentthere.
And I was like, uh, yeah, why should Ihave to go to the website?
Uh, there were no apps at the time incrypto.
Like you had to go to that landing page.
You had to like keep refreshing it andthen, you know, the price because it

(13:36):
fluctuated like, you know, so, sofrequently.
So I made a coinometer, a coinometer app.
Uh, I had a case study on it.
Also on my old website, I, I probably havethe sketch file also still, um, that app
basically, uh,
pulled, there was an API, a free API, Ithink by, by some, some kind of a Bitcoin
price server and that pulled every fiveseconds to get the latest price.

(13:59):
And I wrote like a logic like, Oh, if itgoes up, then it should show like the
Delta in green.
If it goes down, should show the Delta inred.
I should have also like the PNL visible tome at all times.
So like from the price at which Ipurchase, how much is it right now?
And like, when can I sell?
Basically my, that's what my intent was,right?
Like
When is it enough money so that I can say,okay, like, let's get out of this.

(14:21):
So it was like literally a two page app,you know, and I was horrible at design
back then.
I mean, I look back at it and I laugh, youknow, but it did teach me basic coding.
I pushed the app live, it was free, stillspend $99 on that app store, developer
account and set up all of that.

(14:43):
But it was fun.
It gave me a lot of confidence that, hey,I, maybe I can also do it, you know, and,
uh, you, you know, that feeling of like,you launch an app and it gets approved for
the first time and it goes live on theplay store.
You know, I was, uh, I was dating my wifeback then, uh, they weren't married and I
sent her the link and she was like, Oh, Ineed to buy an iPhone to download your app
because you know, like, I don't know whoelse will.

(15:08):
So, so yeah, those, uh, fun times.
And so Cognometer is what it was called.
I was horrible at branding clearly.
But yeah, that's
Cool.
And this must have been a time whenBitcoin was 400.
No, you want to take this again?
No, no, you want to take this againbecause I overlapped.

(15:29):
No, no, I just wanted to like give a wholecard, a small piece.
I just wanted to follow up on this entry,which Hardik mentioned about, right?
Like we'll take that later, but youcontinue.
We have to take it here.
Start.
So this must have been a time when Bitcoinwas what?
$700?
Even lower.

(15:50):
Even lesser.
I have seen, I have seen the journey.
I think somebody in Netherlands, you know,my roommate in Netherlands, I used to live
with a five Dutch people, five Dutch guysand me, so there's like six people in a
four bedroom apartment.
Um, they, they told me, Hey, there is thisthing called Bitcoin and like you should
buy it.

(16:11):
I think it was, uh, I remember it was 300because I remember it being going 10X.
So I've lived it from $300 to $3,000.
And I mean, whatever goes 10x in like afew months, nothing, right?
Like, you know, like, there's no, no waythat's possible.
So that's the journey I lived.

(16:33):
And it was, it was crazy, because I wasobviously living on my parents money at
the time, they were paying for fees, and Ithere was no way you could earn in
Netherlands part time income.
So my dad was sending me money, obviously,he didn't know I was actually occasionally
also buying Bitcoin, couldn't even tell itto him.
Thankfully it went 10x not 1 10th.
And so yeah, like that's, so it was way,way earlier.

(16:56):
Yeah.
And I wish I still held them.
I would have not needed to work.
I think at least for two, three years, Icould have been chilling somewhere.
Were you at least able to pay off yourmaster's fees with Bitcoin?
No, no, no.
It wasn't, the master's were way moreexpensive.
I didn't have that many Bitcoins.
But today I would have been able to fundfive different students

(17:20):
You're fighting.
Yeah.
Just crazy story, yeah.
Either you have something or...
No, no, we can continue.
Yeah.
All right.
So, I think I wanted to fast forward alittle bit, right?
I think from those exciting early daystowards sort of becoming a little more

(17:42):
responsible taking more accountability andtowards that journey of becoming a lead
designer.
Right?
I know that you've written an essay onthis and I want to get to that in a bit,
but can you talk to us a little bit aboutthat journey?
Like what were some things that camenaturally to you?
I mean...
from your coinometer story, clearlyinitiative was right up there.

(18:04):
But what were some other things that youhad to like deliberately learn on that
journey?
Yeah.
I think a few things.
I see, I definitely started as like arookie, not knowing enough, you know,
about designing, um, every, all the workthat I've done before Instamojo, right?
Like, which was my first serious quoteunquote job.

(18:25):
Uh, it was, I would say like, uh,
unsupervised, you know, like I was, I wasbuilding things I was designing, but there
was nobody really like guiding me orhelping me with feedback.
I did a few client projects where like theclients would have some things to say
about the designs and then you change themand all but it's never from the point of
view of, oh, let me help you grow.

(18:46):
It's more like no, this is what we need.
This is where you are like just bridgethat gap and give us what we need.
So it was never about my own growth.
Um, but yet, uh, there was plenty ofcontent online.
So like most of my growth just happenedfrom me passively sifting through all of
that, um, you know, the articles andstuff, but obviously I needed like a
serious environment, right?
To get, uh, get actually, uh, growing.

(19:08):
So I remember like, uh, pack my bags.
And when I, when I came to Instamojo, um,this core mongola office, uh, which I live
very close by now and we always like driveby that.
And I remember the memories.
a suitcase and I didn't know where theoffice was.
And I had to call, you know, I think someother said that I forgot.
And I was like, by office kind, like youjust walk.
I didn't have a house or anything.

(19:29):
Right.
Just literally landed after signing theoffer letter.
And I went there and I, I was like, wow,that's, that's what a startup looks like.
You know, people in shorts, people like asa literally, so okay.
Come get ready.
You know, like lying, like, you know, on alaptop on this time, working just like
coding while sleeping.
When I was like, great.
I mean, that's the I guess it starts, youknow, I still have photos from those days

(19:54):
and my files from those days, I have savedall of that, you know, and I realized
that, like, though, I practically knewnothing, nothing about design, you know, I
remember Apur, who was my product partnerat the time, much more senior than I am.
Siddharth, you know, you know, Siddharth,right?
King Siddharth was the first designer Iworked with in a formal setting.

(20:16):
Like, I saw them work and I got thefeedback from Apoor on some of my early
projects.
You know, and I, I was like, yeah, youare, you know, I think I think we made a
mistake.
I don't think you're cut out for this.
So we hope that you would know all ofthis, but you clearly don't.
Um, a lot of newbie mistakes, you know,and, uh, and just, uh, I was full of

(20:38):
myself a little bit like, oh, wow, Icracked this job and all, uh, at least for
the first one or two days and then.
it all vanished like that.
Okay, like I actually don't know anything.
I would have to learn everything fromscratch.
And I think Shreyas to answer yourquestion, I see and this is this has
remained true as a thread, you know, allthroughout last 1112 years is, is that I

(21:02):
did I always told myself that I don't haveanother option.
And I genuinely don't, you know that Ihave to make it work.
And, and it's
It's funny because like even when I joinedunacademy, you know, almost now three and
a half years back, like I've had dayswhere I literally was face-palming and

(21:22):
looking at myself, right?
Like, what the hell did I just say today?
Like that obviously did not make sense.
How did I make this mistake?
And it, I think the secret isn't justrecovering from that.
Like how quickly you recover from that anddon't be, it's funny, right?
Like you also have to be hard on yourself,but actually don't.
Like not, not hard enough that you wouldgive up, you know, so it's like you have

(21:45):
to convert that, uh, that into healthystress or like healthy pressure of
performance upon yourself.
Right.
Like, yeah, I want to expect better out ofme, but I also want to give myself the
time, um, so that, so that I'm able tokind of, you know, get there.
And, uh, Instamojo in a way, they taughtme that, right?
Like I, I had a very candid conversationwith Sampat and Apoor one night, you know,

(22:08):
like, Hey, like I, I don't know if, um,
Am I doing good?
You know, like, do you really see anyvalue you're paying me?
You know, my salary was like 12 lakhs atthat point, right?
Like you're paying me 12 lakhs, right?
Like, I feel that's a lot of money.
Like, do you see value?
And they're like, no, what are you talkingabout?
Like, yeah, I mean, you're doing goodwork.

(22:28):
Like, you're taking feedback well, youknow, you're very open to debates, you're
open to like conversations.
And I like, okay, like,
I think those, those series ofconversations started to make me realize
that, okay, there's more to designing asin there's more to just the design itself,
but also the conversations, also the, theopenness you show in solving problems or

(22:49):
like just being a good team person, right?
Like just being fun to be around somebodythat other people want to work with.
So I was like, okay, maybe those skillsare also important, right?
Like, nobody had showed me the designladder at that point, right?
So I was like, what soft skills, you know?
So, so
So those things started to make me realizethat, okay, I do bring some things of
value.

(23:10):
There are some gaps that I need to fill.
And thankfully through theseconversations, I've realized that there is
luxury of time, right?
Like these people are not going to give upon me.
They're not going to send me back.
It's okay.
I think that I can, I can like kind offigure this out.
So yeah, after that, once I realized thatI had the luxury of time and, and I could

(23:31):
just, you know, like grind, grind my wayout.
things became very clear because I wasgreat at that.
I was great at grinding because allthroughout my school life, that's the only
thing I've done, you know, and this isall, this is also what people kind of hate
me for when I, when I am public with thisopinion of mine that you have to grind.
I mean, not everybody helps to grind.
Okay.

(23:51):
Let's let, let me also not poke the bearright now, but, but I feel that's the only
way it's worked for me.
So like, if I, if I have to give a genuineadvice, like I would say, yeah, you should
grind if you can.
Right.
If you can't figure out the way out.
So, so that's, that's what's kept me keptme going.
You know, so a lot of what Shreyas yousaid, right?

(24:13):
Like how, how did I think of becoming likea lead designer and all like gradually,
like, you know, when you, when you startlike producing some amount of work, you
start to get confidence.
I think this industry is really good atlike, you know, helping you with that,
that confidence and the feedback loops.
And thankfully, I had plenty of that inInstaMojo, right?

(24:33):
Like people
told me objectively, Hardik, like, look,you seem like you're improving.
This is, this project is definitely betterthan like, like your last one.
You know, here you collaborated well, youcommunicated well, uh, you helped out the
engineer, push it through, you know, you,you kind of, uh, you know, you were there
when we needed you.
So I think, uh, that the confidencestarted stacking up and, and that at some

(24:54):
point, uh, made me realize that, okay,maybe, uh, maybe, you know, like I
probably am ready for.
the next phase, all right?
I'm skipping a few steps here, but thepoint was that feeling of like, okay, it's
the third project that is of the exactsame nature.
And I'm kind of starting to get a littlecomfortable or let's say a little more

(25:18):
assured in my ways.
I should probably figure out like aslightly more, slightly bigger challenge
or slightly different environment at thatpoint.
And obviously this can go wrong.
This doesn't always go right.
People make...
poorly timed switches all the time.
Right.
But thankfully, like, I always told thisto my wife, right?

(25:40):
Like I, uh, I'm, I'm four on four on thatfeeling so far in my career, you know,
every time I've felt that, um, it'susually, it turned out okay, uh, for the
better.
Um, and, and that's kind of, uh, how thatwhole lead thing happened.
Right.
Like I, uh, I,
when I felt like I was turning a page atInstamojo, like my thing was like, okay,

(26:04):
what's next?
You know, like, what does bigger work looklike from here?
You know, and Kedar kind of now featuresin the story a little bit because at that
time, like, I was looking at like some ofthe companies I could go and work at, you
know, and obviously, at the time, like,this is what 2015, you know, and you were
looking at

(26:25):
you know, like who are the companies thatare doing the best design work in India,
right?
Or rather in Bangalore.
And like ClearDrip, obviously, the namejust kept coming up.
They were like hard to ignore, as I say.
And I looked up like who works there.
And it was obviously Sunit was there.
Rosh, I think, was still involved atClearDrip back then, you know, and

(26:50):
I remember Sogan, Sogan there was like,like many Sogan, Jaydeep and I think
Nirzar were there.
Yeah.
Nirzar was there.
Yeah.
And Kedar obviously you were there.
I think I was just in awe of like, how,how a company can get everything right in

(27:11):
terms of being like a design and productminded company.
And I just wanted to
like find a way to get to that company.
And I generally remember that day when Iasked somebody in Insta what do you do?
Do you think I can go work at ClearTrip?
Do you think, you know, I'm good enoughnow to get the food in the door?
And they said, yeah.
I mean, I probably asked somebody wrong.

(27:34):
I don't think the office boy was in theright mood that day.
So, but I was like, okay, maybe if he saysyes, maybe there is a chance, you know?
And yeah, I like.
Um, I started exploring a bit.
I think, uh, Sunit was probablytransitioning out at that point.
And, uh, my timeline is a bit hazy at thattime, but, uh, what I do remember is, uh,

(27:56):
I, uh, I pursued a clear trip to becomesome sort of a lead or like a slightly
more senior designer than I was, uh, and,uh, Sunit had started design capital at
the time.
So then basically what I said was like,it's either clear trip or Sunit.
And I preferred to get to know if I get towork with Sunil then that's, that's maybe
better because I would get to grow workingwith him.

(28:19):
And that ended up working out.
I still remember kid that I keep tellingall the team members in my team about that
Sunny Brito design exercise that I haddone.
And I'm sure like some hundred designersin that era all have at some point in
their lives done that, you know, designassignment.
You know, fun times when people didn'tlike write Twitter threads about being

(28:41):
given a design assignment, you know, theyjust went heads down and did them.
So, so I By the way, I still continue thatalarm clock test, which we did.
I still continue and it's a it's a classicdeal breaker for a lot of senior
candidates also still late.
Yeah, I remember.

(29:03):
I remember my conversation.
I think I met you and Subbu in the in the
in that Jainagar or JP Nagar office ofClearTrip, you know, and I, I remember it
was almost, I had goosebumps visiting thatoffice because obviously all this while,
you know, and she has like, see the funnything is somebody coming from Ahmedabad,

(29:23):
which has no tech happening there apartfrom like heavy industries and stock
market.
Like for me, like these offices were like,
Wow.
Okay.
This is exactly where like the innovationhappens.
You know, and I had one more, once more, Ihad that feeling when I was there Bay area
for the first time, right?
Like, so I had similar feeling visitingBangalore, you know, this is Flipkart.

(29:43):
This is like, you know, the, the OGs oflike Indian startup world.
similarly, when I went to clear tripoffice, I was like, wow, this is, this is
like, I booked tickets from clear trip,but I've never actually like seen the
people behind it.
Right.
Like, and it was crazy.
And then I went through that experienceand
Uh, you know, I still remember that officevery visually, you know, like that.

(30:05):
I don't know if you will, but it was twopeople sitting in that office in a clear
meeting room, right?
And I had never had an interview where twopeople were talking to me.
I was always one on one or like, you know,phone call or like very, like distance
enough that you feel comfortable and like,you don't feel intimidated.
And, but this was being like in clear,like, I, I just remember chugging glasses

(30:27):
of water.
I was like, this is calm myself down.
I don't end up saying something that that,you know, starts on the wrong foot.
But it was fun.
I genuinely loved that entire process gaveme confidence.
I even have the offer letter that youwon't believe Sankalp and I were looking
at that offer letter three days ago.
Just searching my inbox like I crackedclear.

(30:50):
You know, and that was a happiest day ofmy life back then, right?
Like the company that tried to sell phonedesign, you know, I, I was good enough.
to get the foot in the door and take itthrough the offer letter.
And yeah, I coincided with Sonit.
I ended up going with Sonit obviously as,as things find out, no regrets.

(31:10):
I think I had a great time working withhim as well.
That was kind of my lead into, sorry, Iwent on a big tangent, but this is the
part of story I didn't actually shareanywhere.
So I was like, maybe we're talking aboutdata.
Cause that was my like pre lead setup.
Shreyas if that helps.
Got it.
Yeah, that's super interesting.
And I think one of the challenges thatwe've seen, you know, designers face,

(31:33):
right, is having a steady hard time toassess where they are right now and where
the gaps are and what are theopportunities for them to grow.
And I think part of this problem isbecause of leadership still emerging in
the ecosystem, right, and compared to saythe West.
And you obviously now are defining thoseframeworks, especially at an academy.

(31:57):
And you've obviously written this essay onwho's a lead designer.
You talk about core competencies such asownership and accountability and so on.
But I found that two by two matrix youdraw at the end, that like really centers
around communication and collaboration.
Right.
I thought that was really interesting.
Can you unpack that for the audience alittle bit?

(32:17):
Yeah.
I think the roots of this go, go back tomy time at Instamojo, right?
I think, I,
remember from that time, like, and see,funny thing is I always remember work
being this way, where every individual isusually high ownership.
They kind of don't require other people towatch over their work or, or kind of

(32:40):
double, double check if they have pickedall the right boxes, like, because I come
from that environment.
And I think this is large parts to theculture at Instamojo, right?
Like they, they were one of the extremelyhigh agency, high ownership cultures.
You know, and people thrive.
I think everybody has done spectacularlyfor themselves who have, who are in, in

(33:00):
strongly in that era.
So I think, uh, because it started offthat way for me, I never actually realized
how different other people have it, youknow, who don't come from similar culture,
which is why like I ended up feeling theneed to write it down because, uh, yeah, I
realized that like a lot of people areactually okay, uh, producing the bare

(33:21):
minimum, uh, I'll be at high quality, butnot doing the legwork.
that comes with design, right.
And nowadays, like, obviously, I realizedwhen I started hiring from different
companies, and I started hiring fromdifferent parts of the countries,
different levels of experience that itdoes not come naturally to people, you
know, and you have to somehow codify thatinto the way your team operates, or the

(33:45):
way you kind of set the culture or likeyou make you draw the line at what's what
counts as complete body of work.
Right.
So that's why
I ended up putting that down, right?
Like, Hey, like if you are a designer,the, the craft itself or the, or the
artifacts of your design, like that's,that's literally the bare minimum that you

(34:07):
need to produce, right?
Obviously like, if that's not there, thenyou shouldn't even be in the company.
But everything above that is what actuallymakes you more effective, a more of a team
player and selfishly be more successful,right?
Because if, if those, those skills are notstacked on top of your craft,
Like you run the risk of actually A beingignored, B your work being packaged by

(34:32):
somebody else, C like not, not getting theright credits, B like not like coming
across as like a complete packageyourself.
Right.
So this is why, like, when we say, when Isay lead designer, right?
Like what I mean is someone who obviouslyis really good at design, right.
Really good at taking feedback, everythingthat comes with craft.

(34:53):
So I won't zoom into that, but.
someone who keeps their stakeholders in,in complete awareness about the state of
the work.
Somebody who collaborated really wellrequire if, if they need inputs, if they
need clarity, they go and seek that out,they go and talk to engineers, right?
Like about feasibility of their designs.
They go and close all the loops that, thatusually are open in a, in a, in a messy

(35:16):
project and all projects are messy instartups, but you kind of have to do that
legwork.
So people who are lead designers, at leastin, in the way I have set up the team.
They cannot afford to kind of just remainor live in Figma a day after day.
They have to get up, they have to talk topeople, they have to present their work,
they have to come to me and get their workreviewed, get the feedback, get that

(35:39):
incorporated in their designs.
They have to ask for clarity, they have tokind of push the work forward.
And I think I met Srinath recently fromSwiggy and we spoke about this at length.
I told him, right?
Funny thing is like...
before your design work meets thecustomer, your design work meets the org,

(35:59):
right?
Like the company itself, right?
Or the people within.
Is there someone carrying that workthrough the multiple layers of hierarchy
or conversations all the way to the finishline?
It doesn't get there by itself.
It doesn't like just carry itself onmerit.

(36:22):
If that was there, then we would all justbe sitting at home.
Nobody would need to come to office.
Hey, there's my Figma file.
Make it live.
Right?
Like there are so many decisions that youhave to take run time.
So many loops that you have to close asthings are getting built, you know, and a
lead designer is always there on thefrontline kind of, you know, helping, uh,

(36:43):
take, take decisions and like, you know,closing these loops.
So I think, uh, in order to make designsuccessful, which is a huge part of design
as a function.
right?
Not the creation, making it success,making your work successful, or, or at
least pushing your work.
Live, right?
That that in itself becomes the role.
So I think that's, that's why I felt theneed to codify that into some objective

(37:06):
pillars that I can evaluate my designerson or other I can like kind of share with
people and say like, Hey, look, if youwant to hire like a good lead designer,
these are things you should look for.
And these are see, these are hard to likeput an objective number to.
You know, like the, I can never actuallyget this out of a resume or get this out
of their portfolio.
I would have to speak to people they haveworked with.

(37:27):
I would have to like do ref checks.
I would have to like, kind of have themtake me through a journey of a project.
But that's also because the ROI of hiringlike a great design lead is that much
higher.
So you, you kind of have to put in thework.
So you have to kind of taste that out ofthem, right?
Like if they did these things and speak totheir partners who worked with them.

(37:47):
But, but if they'd done that, if they havedone this well, I think they would, they
would become like irreplaceable, you know,and, and I have seen very few people who
pride themselves in like doing the dirtywork, uh, well doing the community, like,
you know, I, there, there are, there havebeen days over the last three and a half

(38:08):
years where I've like, uh, you know,admired people for a very well crafted
slack message that.
eliminated five different open points thatwere floating around in the team.
That that answered a few questions thatdrove clarity that kind of brought like a
huge group together and sort of alignedthem.

(38:29):
Right.
Like, and I love that.
I love that.
I feel that's also design, you know, in avery weird sense of the word, right.
Like, like the role of design is to bringclarity out of like a foggy, messy
situation of any kind.
And I feel communication is one of themost important part.
that gets anything done.
Like, you know, so I mean, there was no, Imean, that whole lead designer essay, I

(38:53):
just I couldn't not write it right.
Like I was like, this, this has to be, youknow, written down because, because of how
misinformed people usually are, you know,and then they, then they get disappointed
because they don't grow or they don't getrewarded or they don't become a lead
designer.
And I ended up telling them, right?

(39:14):
Like, are you even reliable?
Right?
Like, are you, are you someone who yourboss can like give a body of work to and
say like, yes, I trust the person to doeverything well, design, collaboration,
communication, delivery, qualityassurance, you know, and pretty much end
to end.
And so, uh, if, if you're not ready to dothat, uh, you know, not really a lead

(39:35):
designer, right?
Like you won't be reliable enough forpeople to take that, uh, take that bet on,
on you for anything of substance.
So yeah.
I think I will follow up there, right?
Sorry, sorry, Shiresh, I was justinterrupting here.
I wanted to add two more small thingsbecause even I noticed it.
Is that Hardik, first of all, like I agreeon both the points for two reasons, which

(40:00):
are slightly different from what you said,is that one is culturally, we are not a
society who does a lot of documentation.
I mean, when...
like I interview a lot of musicians andwriters and different sorts of people.
So I remember clearly, there was a personnamed Pandit Vishnu Narayan Bhatkhande.

(40:22):
And he wrote the first form ofdocumentation for Hindustani classical
music.
And he was actually pushed back becausethis yeah, I mean, when you write it down,
it, it becomes rigid.
Because you're put on a paper while it'svery fluid in our sort of
oral tradition and culture, right?
Uh, but in our world that was back then inthis world, it's very much required.

(40:46):
So a good start to at least document whatis there is I believe strongly in that.
And the second is personally it helped mebecause when I was in clear trip, uh, and
I was as a, I think, uh, the same, uh,time that you mentioned around 2017, 16
kind of a thing, 16, 15, and I was, uh,hoping to start leading the team.

(41:08):
And I think Sunit was there back then.
And I said, like, can I become a leaddesigner or a principal designer?
And he forwarded one career ladder.
I think it was made by Zen Desk orsomething, someone.
And I saw the columns of ownership,authority, org awareness, and bunch of

(41:29):
other parameters there.
And I realized, dude, like I'm a juniordesigner.
I'm just on Figma the whole day, right?
That gave me a lot of perspective as towhat all I need to demonstrate and do in
the coming year So that I'll automaticallymove to a higher position So I think the
ladder whichever shape and form right aslong as there's some documentation and

(41:52):
framework in place I think it's alwayshelpful and now for last five ten years.
It has been really helpful Not just forhiring but also yearly appraisals.
I think this is the time right so Jan,Feb, March will be like
So it's really helpful.
Yeah, I thought I'll share that.
No, it's 100%.
I think the I mean, we can get into likethe whole ladder part, I, I am very

(42:19):
certain that level of clarity about what'sexpected out of people, you know, like
even Shreyas that lead designer post wasjust to, you know, in a funny way, like I
wrote it because I wanted my own teammembers to read it.
But at the same time, I think that clarityhelps, right?
Like, look, this, these aspects of workare also important.

(42:40):
And you can't ignore them and then havethe same expectation of growth, purely
based on the design skills.
Obviously, those need to be there.
But there are a few more things that comewith it.
Yeah.
By the way, I think I really love thisabout you that you write all of this stuff
down and share it.
I really wish more design and productleaders and founders did this.

(43:05):
I definitely would do this more.
But I think in the other posts that youwrite, like in your career conversations
in isolation, I want to quote somethingyou've written.
The way to get to the work you want to bedoing in the future is earning the trust
of your manager.
This is very interesting and reallyresonated with me, at least when I was

(43:28):
thinking back to my career, but, and youwere mentioning obviously Sudhny, then a
bunch of other folks.
Are there any stories, examples you canshare about, you know, earning that trust
really unlocked this opportunity that youwere looking for?
Yeah.
I think this, this is especially true inlarge teams where you would often find

(43:48):
people with similar skills, similar skillsand similar level of agency ownership.
I think what I, what I essentially lookfor is see, obviously in any company,
things get tough, right?
Not all projects are the same.
Sometimes you would have like a very hairyproject that, that you know, will be, will
be messy.
Let's say the leadership is involved.

(44:09):
A lot of opinions are involved.
Somebody who would be the designer forthat project, they would have to be very
resilient, very open to kind of changes indirections and stuff like.
I ended up realizing, you know, ratherlearning after having had so many
designers kind of work with me throughthis role that it's, it's me who should

(44:34):
know, or be on top of like, the uniquenessof every designer, right?
Like who is the best suited for what kindof work, which designer would you task
with for a certain project and stuff, butin that mental work that I do,
in my kind of categorization of all themembers of my team, reliability sits the

(44:56):
highest, right?
Like I can I can accept, let's say, to anextent, right, like not that great level
of execution, you know, as long as itcomes to me, you know, and I have room to
kind of improve it with feedback andstuff.
I can't accept like, let's say, lack ofcare.

(45:18):
I can't accept somebody who cheats theircraft.
I can't accept if somebody does not thinkabout that problem statement
wholeheartedly or does not commit to thatbody of work.
I can't tolerate that.
And that's why I've always even tookexamples within my own team, right?
Like whenever I have picked people for aproblem statement or whenever I'm doing

(45:41):
that matching, like...
It's, it's a, it's a big responsibilitybecause, and I take that very seriously is
because like the cost of failing in doingthat is extremely high for multiple
reasons, right?
Like, a, the project does not ship ontime.
You look bad as a leader.
The designer gets disappointed becausethey, they couldn't somehow make it
successful and I'm sure they partiallyfeel responsible for it that is wasted

(46:04):
time, resources, everything, right?
So that's always a crucial decision-makingfactor.
And I remember.
One incident from my days at I think thiswas in Google admin console team, right?
I used to work in Google cloud for a bit.
And I remember like speaking to my managerabout it, right?
Like they used to do this thing wherelike, you pair people, right?

(46:28):
Like you pair people with another designerand like you just let them kind of see
like how the other designer goes about it.
Like why I liked that was because there islike a running commentary.
from the designer who's going through thisexperience.
And you can ask them questions, hey, like,why did they say that?
Like, why did you get this, oh, okay, whyare you working on this project?
Okay, like, why are we meeting for theseventh time for design review?

(46:52):
Right, like, does that person not trustyou?
Or like, yeah, you already saw thatfeedback.
You already resolved it, right?
Like, could this not be async?
Like, through those conversations, yourealize that there is, the manager
operates so differently with differentdesigners, right?
Like the one I was speaking to, right?
Like they actually,
had more number of reviews.
They actually had faster feedback cycles.

(47:14):
They actually had like a very differentnature of feedback altogether to this
designer than to others.
And then I realized that, okay, maybe likethe manager calibrates their style to
people.
Right.
And then later, obviously the designerwouldn't have told me that, Hey, that's
because I'm more reliable, right?
Like that's not something you just say.
I ended up learning by observing theirtrajectory and the other designer's

(47:37):
trajectory that person that I was kind of.
shadowing or talking to just got the jobdone all the time.
So they kept getting like anytime therewas a project that the manager would look
for a suitable designer for like itinvariably more often than not landed up
to that person.
And that started to tell me like, okay,maybe, maybe it's because like in a, in a

(48:00):
similar spectrum of craft, like you wouldpick the best, most reliable person,
especially when there is a, there is aproject that, that has high stakes.
Right.
And I have a, I have a different essay,uh, shares where I say something very
opposite, right?
Like when you have the luxury of time, youlook to grow the team.
When you don't have the luxury of time.
And when things are on fire, you look tothe most capable person to get the project

(48:23):
done and don't optimize for team growthbecause you can't, you don't have that
luxury, right?
So there's like wartime method andpeacetime method.
Like peacetime method is sure.
I would love to bring the averagecompetency level of the team up.
So I would push any project, which has theluxury of time.
to the junior most designer, who'sprobably barely suitable to do this
project.
Because through this project, I would helpelevate them, which would raise the bar on

(48:46):
average.
But if I don't have the luxury of time,the stakes are high, I can't do that.
Because I know everybody would end uplooking bad, right?
And it's in nobody's interest.
So then I end up doing, which is exactlywhy in a lot of wartime companies, or
rather a lot of companies where most ofthe work is fast, high stakes, you know,
no room for failure,

(49:08):
breeding ground for internships or itmakes for terrible breeding ground for
like junior designers coming into theculture because there is no room to fail.
And you whenever I mean in order to havegrowth happen, you need to have room for
failure, right?
Like that's just how growth happens.
So there are both, both those extremesthat kind of exist and having seen both in
some, some shape and form I, but I meangenerally speaking like the reliability

(49:34):
pillars stands pretty strong.
Yeah.
Help explain.
Yeah.
And I think we should definitely link toyour essay in the show notes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Love that.
Can I go next?
Yeah, please.

(49:55):
Ganesh, I have a pause here and there.
This is for my editor.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, Hardik, like great, great to sort ofget these nuances and a lot of food for
thought for me also, because I'm workingin a very different kind of a culture now.

(50:16):
So, so setting those expectations upfrontand like
setting the whole culture of gettingfeedback and pushing the boundary of
design really helps.
But just I'm trying to connect the dotsnow that you are kind of a leader.
And you're heading teams.

(50:37):
And you started off as a lateral internwhere you were kind of skeptical.
So I'm sure you must have worked on yourcraft a lot.
and then like other skills as youprogressively glue.
Now, how does the day look like, right?
I mean, this is especially because a lotof designers think or have a rosy picture,

(51:00):
which you had when you entered a cleartrip, we knew the inside stories.
But like, how does your day look like andhow much of you are still hands-on just to
set the benchmark or you like, how does ithappen with the
leads that you're working with and then tothe junior most designer?
Yeah, yeah.

(51:20):
No, I mean, a great question, right?
I think, see, like when people say like,what's the secret to growing fast?
Or what's the secret to kind of getting tolike leadership and all?
And I, I usually just look back and I findthat there was there was nothing really
extraordinary, right?
Like that you had to do, I think, juststicking to getting

(51:44):
continually good at designing itself is itcan take you very far.
You know, you're like, you keep working onyour taste, you keep working on your own
skills and ability or your articulation offeedback to your team, right?
I think, like, there is nothing new thathas happened in like 1520 years, right?
Like you would know, right?

(52:04):
Like back in, it's not like we used to doanything different.
I mean, it's the same thing, right?
Like you design, you create like a handofffile,
you involve everybody whose opinionmatters and kind of have a skin in the
game.
And like, you just kind of take thingsforward.
That alone hasn't really changed at all.
I think our interpretation has required tobe fancier, which I don't understand.

(52:27):
Right?
Like everybody expects key like, Oh no, ithas to be more than that.
Right?
Like, there must be something special.
Yeah.
There must be something.
Like, what are frameworks?
This like, no, really.
Right.
Like it's, it's just loving the boringparts.
Right.
Like I show up every day.
Like what the day looks like is usuallythere are two or three really big, high
importance projects ongoing at any giventime.

(52:49):
Right.
And there are two or three mid to smallsized projects ongoing, right.
In a team of our size.
Usually I have a couple of reviewsscheduled.
Usually I have like a couple of apps, apptesting sessions that are scheduled.
We do daily standups on like the highstakes projects.
So we kind of meet as a team every day.
You know, we resolve decisions, we kind ofanswer any open questions that are there.

(53:12):
presence helps, right?
So so Kedar to answer your question, a lotof the times leadership is just about
being there.
Right?
Like it's I equated to parent parenting alot, right?
Like although obviously there are cleardifferences, but as a parent, right, like
you are doing half the job if you're justthere, first of all, right, because most
of the problems arise when you're not eventhere.
So I think as a leader, right, like youbeing there is a sign of just the team

(53:38):
feeling more relaxed, the team knowingthat hey, like
We have the person, we can always go forhelp.
Like everything's fine, right?
So you lead a lot by your body language.
You lead a lot by your presence, evenbefore, much before you lead by your words
or actions.
Right?
Like, so I try to never miss like a day inan office, right?

(53:59):
I'm literally sitting in office right now,right?
Like I would find like reasons to kind ofjust go to office, you know, be there for
the team.
And I've, in my three and a half years, Iwould have...
all in all worked for like whatever 10days from home.
And I hated every bit of it.
I love my family.
It's just that I hate working from home isbecause I don't get to see my team.

(54:20):
I don't get that energy, you know, thatthe office has.
So like, yeah, showing up, you know,that's what my day is all about.
And just being available for the team,right?
Like, and recently I've started to kindof, you know,
dabble into this whole like, Shreyas wouldlove this, right?
Like this, this whole notion of, uh,absent leadership, right?

(54:44):
Like a lot of the times you kind of haveto let the team fight their own battles.
You don't have to always like babysitthem.
You don't have to always solve theirproblems for them, but there is always
this like the duality, you know, it's avery whole another topic on itself.
But, uh, Boz Boz, uh, Tang from Facebookhas written about this, right?
Like he calls this, I think.

(55:05):
vacation leadership or something.
I'll find the exact term.
But what he basically says is that likeyou've done no job well as a leader if you
actually are able to take vacations andlike the team would just be fine.
Nice.
Trust me, I've done that also.
And things are always fine.
Like I'm thankfully I have like reallymature designers.
I'm blessed with like a great team.
But I just cannot like, this is more likea personality thing, right?

(55:30):
Like I just can't not be there.
Right.
And I love my work so much.
I love my
team so much.
I love what I do.
You know, you could, you could tell melike, Hardik, I want us to design an app
that would never ship.
We will never have budget for it.
And I would still have fun designing itlike, sure, why not?
Like, let's, okay, then all the morereason to design it because there are no

(55:51):
constraints.
Right.
So I think, like the act of loving the actof design is what keeps me going to keep
bringing me to office and just helps me
tune out the noise, right?
Like because I've kept it simple.
Like it's almost like saying, I mean, wedraw a lot of analogies in sports, but I
love it when people say like I'm playingbecause I love it.

(56:13):
I even after like 25 years of doing it, Istill love it because I mean, I still do
it because I love it.
Like every time I step on the field, itstill has the same goosebumps.
Like I, in a very weird way, like that'swhat I feel right.
Every time I get to the office, I feellike, wow, a day full of possibilities, a
day full of like, like those ideas.
We can explore with the team, you know,like, and, uh, it's just been that over

(56:38):
like a decade, right?
I loved my day in Insta Mojo.
Hola Google, an Academy, cheesy thingswill get tough, easy layoffs.
No, you know, salary hike.
No, no, no

(57:02):
That's all I asked for.
You know, I mean, leadership, managing,if, if I get to be a designer, you know,
and that's, that's good enough for me.
And I think, uh, this simple, notcomplicating it more than this has just
kept things like very, uh, it's allowed meto focus on longevity.

(57:23):
Right.
Okay.
Care.
You told you to Charlie Salvi.
That's it then.
Hey, it's been, it's been to not go later.
And I could share it.
Okay.
What other levels are there to chase?
Like if I realized that even afterbecoming an SVP fundamentally, your job
still remains that of designing goodquality stuff.
So what other surprises are in there forme?

(57:47):
Okay.
So like even the people who I idolize,they were doing the same thing.
They were designing with the team.
They are getting to do the same thing.
I consider it as a privilege.
And, and.
The fact that like you get paid good moneyand you get to work with talented people
who you also can keep learning from.
And I think you can go very, very far.
And I don't think I'll be like, if you askme today, like how do you, what would need

(58:09):
to change?
Okay.
So what does growth look like?
Yeah.
Growth looks like I probably just work onslightly different product or I don't
know, like maybe a different domain, butwould they, today look different?
No, they put it to yoga.
You know, so, and I think being okay withthat or other actually,
Cherishing that.
Yeah, I love the monotony of how amazinglypredictable my day looks like.

(58:36):
I love that, you know, because your designproblems have enough surprises.
Your day shouldn't have that.
I mean, you know, it's like the same team,mostly the same members, same kind of
work, same kind of day schedule.
In fact, nowadays, I even keep most of myschedule also open.
I don't keep any meetings.
I have one or two meetings.
Rest all is just I'm sitting in a room andlike people keep coming and going to get

(58:58):
to know how to get discussed if I have anidea I call them in like we do a
whiteboarding session.
It's mostly that you know, so yeah, Ithink terribly simplified.
But but if it's working, why change?
Yeah, no, great.
I completely resonate with it becauserecently I've started running also right

(59:18):
so it doesn't have to do anything but run.
I mean, you do 21k or like 42k
same drill that you have to do over andover again.
10,000 hours of practice.
Like everywhere the same is said.
I wanted to borrow in fact Abhinit'swords, which you said, right?
Like Hardik about you're doing the mundanebut you're just like that's why you can do

(59:41):
it for a very long period.
And I think he very nicely said in one ofthe other episodes that you're out of the
box.
To do it, you have to make a box first.
So you have to do boring work first.
Right?
I love the analogy there.
No, I think, see, novelty is overrated.
I feel, the careers require, long careersrequire consistency of any shape and form.

(01:00:07):
If you come every day and say that today,see, something is going to happen,
something new happens, somethingdifferent, something different, you know,
like, it brings excitement.
You have to enjoy the mundane things.
That's true for life.
That's true for everything.
Right?
Like that's true for everything.
Long lasting.
Everything long lasting does have cyclesof repetition.

(01:00:27):
And if you don't like those cycles, likeif you say no, how is that?
Like, you know, like how, like that's nothow any, anything gets stronger or more
refined.
You only get refined through repetitioncycles of consistency.
And if you keep chasing the novelty, whichis why a lot of people like change.
Uh, I mean, what is that proxy?

(01:00:49):
Team changes, no company changes, youknow, the environment will change.
Like yes, but that novelty, you know, likewhat do you think?
Then let's go key environment.
But again, the fourth day, yeah, what hecan't even, I'm up it would have said
different, but up to be poor.
I'm like, give away team members.
I have a way to mark.
I have a way hand off.
We engineering.
We started same problems.

(01:01:11):
So say people used to ask me what lifelooked like at Google.
And I was like, nothing different.
I mean, that in the 90% of it is the same,right?
Like, yeah, I just didn't pay for food.
But everything else was literally thesame.
Like, there were PMs, there wereengineers, designers, right?
Like there were hard days, good days, youknow, but bulk of your work, which is why

(01:01:32):
like I advise people to not optimize fornovelty.
I think I opted you have to optimize forsomething higher or like something more
meaningful than novelty, you know, andotherwise, like you will, you will start
to like, you know, like
The power of novelty also wears off.

(01:01:54):
If you keep exposing yourself to noveltyevery six months, right?
Uh, like, uh, and, and this is somethingwhere great mentorship helps, right?
Like sure.
Yes.
You, you do talk about a mentorship a lot,right?
I think, uh, it's not about design design.
It's like, uh,
Um, you know, like in my conversations, Ihave um, as my mentor was a SVP

(01:02:17):
engineering at an academy, right?
Like he and I share so much FaceTime everyday in office, you know, he shows up every
day is very present, very available.
And I attribute a lot of my leadershipparts of the learnings to my conversations
with him and he said that, right.
Like I asked him, uh, so he became SVPbefore I did.
And, uh, we were like just having casualconversation.

(01:02:37):
I told him like, um, you know, like, youmust be feeling like.
uh, feeling amazing, right?
Like a high position, right?
Like the first product intake SVP in thecompany.
And he was like, no, it's justrecognition.
So it's still an acknowledgement of what Iwas already doing.
So, uh, it feels good, but like, uh, thereis, there is not enough goodness feeling

(01:03:03):
that I can ride on for months.
Well, feeling like mine, a spike.
Right.
So I can't ever.
ask for promotion because the high of thatpromotion will carry me forward.
Like if that's what you need to carryyourself forward.
Like, I need that recognition otherwisehow can I push myself forward?

(01:03:24):
Then you won't be able to do it becausethere would be times when for months and
months and years, you won't getrecognition.
The title will be upgraded.
It's possible that you won't even get themoney.
Right?
Like, that's one of my fears, right?
Like, you can't get it.
Would you be okay going?
pushing further then also that's when youare really, that's when you really love

(01:03:45):
what you do.
And the only thing you have to ensure islike there is a meaningful career in it.
But there is no one who is going to payfor it.
Bigger or not, it's different.
So I think a boring consistency is aweapon.
Like if you end up like really enjoyingthat, oh, that you become like lethal.

(01:04:07):
Right.
And
Uh, and I compare that with, uh, I used towork with a lot of people I looked up to.
I was like, yeah, I have to run fast.
I have to grow quickly.
When will I ever get to the levels wherethey are?
And I realized that, uh, it was, it wasall about just being relevant.
This is what you're saying, Kedar, that in2015, maybe we knew each other and here

(01:04:31):
almost 10 years down the line, we stillknow each other.
And I know those are the same thing in 45.
It's because I know.
because I know that I'm doing more or lessthis, unless like a industry changing
event happens that puts me out of job.
Someone will push me out and say, Hardik,they'll take your laptop.
No, you can't design.
It's all gone.
It's over.
Like that's the only way I'll not be doingthis basically.

(01:04:55):
Right.
So, um, so if, if you have that level ofclarity and tenacity, I think, um, you can
keep going.
You can keep going for a long, long time.
And, uh, if you just are there longenough,
you would get better.
You would get wiser, you know, and, andhopefully you would end up doing
financially well also, you know, if themarket keeps growing as well.

(01:05:19):
So, yeah, yeah.
No, no, brilliantly, brilliantly put.
I want to change gears a bit.
And like talk about, I mean, what you saidjust now about why Karna Hai, it's at a
very bigger, like zoomed out or a macroarc.
career like nuances may like junior toAlacca senior to Alacca leader to Alacca

(01:05:41):
challenges correct.
Obviously that will be covered in theframework and the career ladder.
But just trying to understand like infact, I did a series complete 12 part
series called where are the designerswhere I spoke to Shrinath Shreyas Harish
credit say Fatima from Gojek a lot ofpeople and trying to understand that

(01:06:06):
How do we hire?
Like it's a very, very big challenge,especially where I come from.
Because if I join a company, typically,yeah, 17, 18 years of experience, and then
the junior or the person who's joining,even if they're senior, it's still like
five to six years of experience.
So the delta is very big, right?
Six years and like 15 years, right?

(01:06:28):
Almost 10 years, 11 years difference.
So I need needed that middle layer.
And that's why I said like, where arethese lead designers, right?
And what I'm observing, I could be wrong,but once you grow in that ladder, you
become comfortable, you have a family, youhave a work life balance.
And that's why these people are sitting insay, Intuits or, or like more MNCs kind of

(01:06:49):
a thing than the daily startup world.
Right.
So yeah, I even I took a tangent, butlike, how do you, how do you generally
hire?
Right.
And since you are coming from a non
design school background, which I amthat's why I'm stressing so much.
How do you like spot talent?
Like, you said reliability is oneimportant parameter.

(01:07:11):
But that once they come in, right?
Like that's, that is established throughsome exchange, or it will take some time
to establish that.
But just as like spotting a talent andthen like, doing that bet, do you think
it's a gamble?
Like if you can speak a little bit abouthiring and like, how does it happen?

(01:07:32):
For sure.
I have two, three things, right?
So speaking of when you said a lot ofpeople go sit at Intuit and at Flask and
all, I think there are only two ways youcan hire easily or rather easy is a bad
word, but it's more like you can hire in asimpler way.
One is either you are exemplary enoughthat people want to work with you.

(01:07:58):
Individually, you are exemplary enough andthey can look past everything else.
and just say, Hey, just because I want towork.
And thankfully our domain also providesthat level of visibility to good
designers, you can create that kind of asetup around you publicly that people just
seek you out.
That's one.
So either you hire because it's you whopeople want to work with, or you work at a

(01:08:22):
company where a company car brand isstrong enough that you don't need to do
any work.
So basically in Google, Google never has aproblem of hiring designer.
because everybody wants to work at Google,right?
So like, and that's where like thechallenging part comes a lot of people, a
lot of good design leaders go to companieswhere they have to establish a culture.
That's like the hardest, right?
Like, because if the company brand is notthere, you know, and, and they themselves

(01:08:44):
haven't really put enough work in, like,showing that they are a great designer, a
design leader that other people can workwith.
It's like you don't have the rightingredients.
So you're now going to have to cook up arecipe with like very poor quality
ingredients, and it's going to take a longtime.
So if you are like a design leader withlike no visibility, not real work out
there or not having done like the legworkupfront, and also you are in a company

(01:09:09):
where company also does not have that kindof a brand, then you will take you like
three, four years to kind of, because thenyou have to do it the hard way.
There is no cheat code.
But if you have any of the previous twoingredients that I spoke about, right?
Like you have it better than most otherpeople.
Right.
And,
Again, this was like an advisor who gaveme, right?
Like he said, like hardly click the onlyway to become exemplary forget design any,

(01:09:33):
in any domain is be an exceptional, uh,exceptionally accomplished person yourself
first, right?
Like people only want to work withsuccessful leaders.
They don't want to work with a leader whohas not had like a successful trajectory
themselves, right?
So have one yourself first.
So, so like have a very high bar for whereyour own career is headed.

(01:09:54):
Right?
Like, and, uh,
how much of a, what's the level of thoughtclarity and like the level of craft and
stuff that you are able to establish thatother people want to kind of get up to,
right?
So if you have done that work, like youalready have become like, you're already
in that zone where people kind of seekout.
Like, why did I go chase Sunit?

(01:10:16):
Is because everybody I asked in 2015 who Ishould work with said like, hey, Sunit is
the best guy, right?
Like, I mean, you...
If you want to grow in your career as adesigner, like he's the person.
So I, and then, then I, I sent my email tohim, right?
Like, Hey, I would love to work with you.
How do we, how do we make it happen?
Tell me and I'll do it.
You know, I'm so happy that now, like, Ido have a fair bit of inbound now.

(01:10:41):
Like, like my own inbound, like peoplereach out through email, people reach out
because as Shreyas mentioned, right?
Like a lot of the writing essays that theysee, no, that working with me article that
I wrote, I completely wrote it out ofjust, you know, like
let's just share this, right?
Like I'm sure this has to be on thewebsite.
So by the way, yes, we'll get into thewriting part, but I use my website as my

(01:11:02):
own personal note.
So I actually, uh, a lot of times there isno intent of sharing it publicly, but to
like, where else could it be?
Yeah.
So it just allows me to share the linkwith people though.
So that's why I put it there.
But when I did that, right?
A lot of people said like, wow, thissounds like an environment I want to work
in.
So, so I think my, my first advice isalways to create your own inbound.

(01:11:23):
Right?
Like have an exemplary self that youportray out there through your work.
Not don't fake your brand.
Obviously that's hard to do.
And, and you shouldn't because that's in away being not genuine.
But like, if you're doing great work, liketalk about it.
If you're doing great work, show it,right?
Like show what went be what, what goesinto good quality work, right?

(01:11:44):
Like, uh, and, uh, put yourself out there,uh, you know, like, uh, offer help because
you know, in your domain, there is notenough help.
Right?
So that's what I kept doing.
Like, why do I go to meetups?
Why do I go to like, why do I lend my timefor like coffee conversations as much as I
can, obviously with family, it gets hard,but as much as I can, like doing that

(01:12:07):
makes you top of mind in other people'sheads.
Right?
Like if they ever, I know for a fact thatthere are conversations that happen in
Bangalore or generally in designcommunities where something I wrote
or something I would have said getsbrought up.
Right?
And it's not because I brag about it.

(01:12:27):
It's because I know that I'm doingsomething of value.
I'm adding some kind of a value, right?
I'm helping people with some level ofclarity.
Now that's how they remember me.
Like, okay, if I work with this person,like I would have probably the same level
of clarity in my career.
I would get that same kind of feedback.
You know, I would have similarconversations.

(01:12:47):
Great.
That's all I needed.
Where do I want to go work next?
that person.
Right.
So, so it's, it's me having done that workallows me to have that inbound.
And that makes hiring easy because atleast I have, I don't have to ever look at
an empty sheet and say, our pipeline hasnever been made.
Candidates copy.

(01:13:07):
Like that's rarely happened.
Like every time we sit down, we'll needlike a couple of designers.
Where do we start?
We have a sheet because everybody whoinbound had reached out, we have put them
in a sheet and like we kind of, we talk.
So I think that that's the first thing.
Second, I think, see there is, nobody hasformalized how design hiring should be

(01:13:29):
done.
We all know how bad a lot of companies doit, or sometimes like some companies do it
differently.
But I think, and this is something that myteam came up with, the idea for an academy
debut, right?
Like literally just why not make it fun,right?
Why not make design hiring fun?

(01:13:50):
Thankfully, when you are a design leader,you have the ability to do that.
I couldn't have done it in Google becauseGoogle has their own way of hiring.
So obviously, there are, there arecompanies where you can't do this, but if
you are in a startup, if you are buildingyour own culture, you can, who decides how
you should hire.
As long as you hire a good candidate.
I mean, for all, you know, I would just goput up like a, put up like a sketching

(01:14:13):
stall, you know, in a design meetup andlike, you know, start hiring there.
Like, why not?
So I think people.
don't put enough thought into like, youcould do it differently.
You could, you don't have to like do theboring interviews.
You don't have to do like a productmanager round and engineering round and
like whiteboarding session.
Like these are just, um, you know,attempts that other people have made, but

(01:14:34):
why not do something differently?
So we did that design debut was like justa fun challenge.
You know, we gave people like, uh, funnyquestions to answer and like a couple of
things to solve for, um, you know, andpeople loved it.
Like, um, from, I think just a few tweets.
We got 200 candidates with assignmentsfilled.
Right.
Like, and that level of inbound is insane.

(01:14:56):
Right.
Like, and, uh, I mean, call it power ofbrand, call it like just the exercise
being fun, I like to think that it wasmore to do with the exercise.
Right.
And you know what we promised at the endof it, we just said, everybody who gets
rejected, we'll get a feedback call.
We will not reject you on your facewithout explaining it.
And
Everybody, I think we had an acceptancerate of I think 5% we ended up hiring 11

(01:15:19):
people from it.
And, uh, which means we had like some, uh,a hundred plus people to reply to and do
the calls for.
I mean, our team, I didn't do any of thosecalls.
Our team members who were leading theproject, they went through this entire
process for a month and a half, they were45 days.
They were doing these calls, justice,giving people feedback.
Hey, you could have included this, and

(01:15:41):
rejected people have written us emailsaying thank you because that was the
first feedback they ever got in theirlives on their work.
Right?
Coming, bringing this back to Instamojodays, right?
Like the fact that I joined the companywas the first time I actually got any
feedback.
So I think this is the this is the realityof design world right now not having

(01:16:02):
enough leadership brings lack of feedbackbrings lack of objective measure for how
good people actually are.
And that's, that's why like whateverlittle companies like ours are doing or
other companies are doing in a, in a, Ithink Razorp ended up doing a similar
exercise, like when you do something likethis, people just flock.

(01:16:23):
So it's, it's a, it's in a way it's sad,but it's a, it's also power is with people
like us who are now thankfully sitting at,at least that level of authority where you
could bring change.
Right.
And, and, uh, I'm, I'm very proud of thoseefforts also that the team pulled off.
I mean, I honestly, I can't take anycredit for it because I mean, it was

(01:16:47):
entirely the team.
We just discussed the idea briefly andthey, uh, took it all the way to the
finish line, but why did the idea evencome about?
It was because this was always in theconversations in our company.
Right.
Like how do we, like, I don't, I don'twant to be a team that cries about the
problems.
Let's, let's try to solve it.
Right.
Like why am I writing is because I don'twant to cry about, Oh, nobody writes.

(01:17:09):
Lick the coffin.
You want writing and do you know, oh,nobody hires.
I mean, everybody asked for like shittyexercises or like whiteboard sessions and
chit chat round of interview.
No, there is a better way to do it.
Or those 11 people.
I don't think there was a single error ofjudgment in the hiring, you know, and many
of them are still with us.
And many of them will end up having likeexceptional careers, just because of that

(01:17:32):
dedication and all that they showed.
So I think that that's the end.
The final thing I want to say about hiringis
spotting talent early.
Right.
I think this is something Keith Raboi alsotalks about.
It's there's no secret to this.
It's just that if you spot talent early,you get them as a pure craft person.

(01:17:54):
And there's a beauty in that because youcan mold them through your culture.
However you want them to be.
Right.
There is, there is, there is almost noentitlement.
There is a lot of humility.
There is a lot of sincerity that comeswith it.
And there is a lot of.
self-inflicted pressure of, yeah, I needto take this opportunity.
I need to make it count.

(01:18:15):
And I love that.
These are the right ingredients that thepeople would move mountains in order to be
successful in your setup.
So if you spot them early and give them achance, provided that they're good, you
end up hitting jackpot more often thannot, because then your culture will do the
work.

(01:18:35):
Your culture will end up molding them.
Your culture will end up kind of
you know, like coaching them just throughthe sheer power of presence.
I believe a lot in that power of presence,right?
Like if, if you bring them into the systemand, and if they have the right
ingredients in Saturday to learn and allof that, great, bravo.
I mean, as a leader, you've done your job.
Who's good, bad, your team will take careof them.
You know, so I think this is how I kind ofthink about it.

(01:18:59):
Design lead hiring is a whole anothertopic shares.
We've spoken about this, right?
Like there are obviously challenges there.
Um, but yeah.
generally these factors still remain true.
You could still create a gradient boundfor leads also, you know, you know,
because even they want to grow.
I mean, as long as you show them thatthere is enough delta and that they still
can grow in your setup, even most of thiswould still be true for them.

(01:19:21):
There are a few extra pieces you have todo.
Oh, yeah, I mean, yeah, totally makessense.
A lot of a lot of
Yeah, actually have ocean one cut Korea.
Oh, no, make sense.
I have a follow up here.
Yeah, good.
Yeah.
So I think I really love that you broughtup this topic of spotting talent early,

(01:19:45):
right.
And something I've been thinking about ishow a lot of hiring conversations tend to
be very backward looking, right?
Like the work people have done or thescenarios they've been in and so on.
And this is especially true with earlytalent spotting, but I believe the real
alpha here.
from especially a company's point of viewis being able to gauge what can they do in

(01:20:06):
the future?
Right?
Like take a more forward looking approachto hiring and not just look at what
they've already done.
What is your sort of perspective on this?
And how do you, you know, identify thatpotential in designers?
See, and sorry, if I can also just appendto that same question is that then, like,
do you spot that in say, portfolios?

(01:20:28):
Or do you spot that in?
interpersonal communications like justlike beyond the regular interviews.
Yeah.
Not only I think, great.
So I'll answer this, this whole thing.
As if I was about to say, right, like if Iwere doing, if I had the luxury of, you

(01:20:49):
know, doing something else at this veryinstant, I would do something similar to
what you are doing.
And I'll tell you why.
It's because there is
Speaking of alpha, there is an insaneamount of alpha in spotting talent right
in the universities.
You know, and if I was if I was doing whatyou're doing, I would actually work in

(01:21:11):
semi formal way with a few universitieswho have a great track record of
producing, producing the right kind oftalent, you know, with the good intent and
all.
See, the point is, you want to pick peoplefrom environments that have already
nurtured them.
in some way or shape and form.

(01:21:31):
Right.
Like, so if certain universities do have arecord of producing really good talent,
that means it's also highly likely thatthey'll continue doing so.
Right.
Like cultures don't just switch overnight.
So I would look at them.
I would partner with them and say, like, Iwill want your best 10 people.
I will make sure that they get placed atthe right, exactly in your model.

(01:21:52):
Right.
And I would, I don't know, I wouldprobably even codify that in some kind of
a contract or something.
Right?
Like I want your 10 best rankers fromthese streams, you know, and I'll do like,
let's say one round of conversation orsomething, right?
Like just, just a basic level of screeningthat they also want to do this.
And I would get them and I would be thetop of the funnel for the companies.
And I'll sit in the middle, but at thesame time, I will not waste their time.

(01:22:17):
the students time.
So basically in whatever overlap they havein the last six months of their university
before they get their degrees, I'll makesure the transition to getting to a good
companies as smooth as it can be.
And that way I win on both sides becausehere I as long as I maintain the steady
flow of talent, I am in the in the, youknow, speed dial off like all the best

(01:22:39):
companies, you know, who constantly needlike good, good talent influx, right?
And the funny thing is like top of thefunnel, like I used to actually have a
very different point of view on this, butnow I've learned the other way around is
true that top of the funnel talent.
Top of the funnel is a great problem tooperate at, which is also why, like, I

(01:23:01):
know there are people who have verydifferent opinions about 10 K design and
all, but I still feel that it is actuallyhelping some designers get a sense of
where the industry is and what it entailsto kind of, um, and what it takes to get
it in.
Right.
So because in an industry deprived ofliterally everything, you have to

(01:23:22):
celebrate efforts that do at least alittle bit.
Right.
So, so I think I would do that.
And so that's my take on like the alphapart, right.
I think universities are the right place.
Right.
And that's just hedging yourself becauseyou have a higher likelihood of finding
the right people.
Other than that, I think.
What was the question you were asking,Kedar?

(01:23:44):
How do you spot that thing?
Like, I mean, you took a differenttrajectory, but like, generally, when
hiring, like, what do you expect in kindof portfolios?
Or, or like, how does you how do you takethat bet?
I would, I have a very interesting ideahere that I've been thinking about haven't
actually shared with anyone yet.
But I used to always remember, in at leastin my engineering days, there used to be

(01:24:10):
tech fests.
And there were
I don't know if somebody has tried this.
Obviously I've not done my research, but Iwould at least want to actually do a, do a
sort of a design festival, you know, athree day design festival in, uh, like a
giant university where you it's like, youhave other, uh, students from all over

(01:24:34):
India, from other universities coming intothis university.
And there is like a design fest.
There are like talks happening fromindustry leaders that are like, uh,
fun exercises happening that are likecompetitions happening.
And obviously, I mean, not to make designcompetitive.
It's more like it is just a filter togauge interest.
Right.
So I wouldn't actually rely on aportfolio, but I would rely on like, what

(01:24:57):
is the level of participation who areactually interested in these, this kind of
a career, right?
Like who are at least like, I mean, atthat point, you're only engaging for that,
like that way too young to have anymeaningful body of work.
What they will probably show you, likelogos they're made for tech fest.
Right.
Like that's how kind of most
a designer's careers start, right?
But have that, right?
Like have poster writing competition, havelike AI competition, right?

(01:25:19):
Like generative AI, are like students ableto use generative AI and create like a
meaningful presentation for like a foodbrand.
Let's say that's a competition you run andyou judge and give feedback and like you
kind of give them a taste of like what itlooks like.
You do like a design shark tank, right?
Like why not?
So I think that's kind of what I would do.
I would generally just create excitementaround design in colleges.

(01:25:42):
It and why is that is because the currentworld of design startups is so far removed
from like the academia or, or like that,that entire university culture is that
just bringing them two together itself, itcould be a huge win.
You know, and like I've, I've been leadingdesign for whatever last four, five years,

(01:26:05):
like not once have I actually gotten aninvite for like a design fest speaker or
like
because there are not many happening, Ithink.
And so I would love to see this happen,you know, like a design up or like one of
our big brand conferences actually doingit at a university, ensuring tickets are
cheap, ensuring participation is easy,ensuring companies put in money to sponsor

(01:26:27):
this conference so that they can kind ofmake it happen for you can't sell like an
8000 rupee ticket to like collegestudents, right?
Like they can't afford that.
But but
are they not interested in attending if itwere to happen in the campus?
100% they would attend, you know, like youwould get engineers attending these, you
know, if they could like present your casestudies there, present your like day in

(01:26:47):
the life of a designer to them, you know,and then look how excited they get.
So I think top of the funnel excitementneeds to be created.
And then let's see maybe 2025, we can makesomething happen.
Yeah, great idea.
Because in fact, it's a sad situation andalso
For me, it was very pleasant.
So I was invited as a speaker in, and Ithink Shriti Janan also from PTM at

(01:27:12):
Ahmedabad Design Week.
So I think there are a couple of weeks, Ithink there's Hyderabad Design Week and
Ahmedabad and Care Life.
I'm not right.
Yeah, so there are a couple of, yeah.
Couple of design weeks which happened.
And I was there as a, so this year, theyear which I gave a talk, they,

(01:27:33):
the theme of the festival was design fordefense.
And our India's highest order army personwas there.
And he came and he said, like, listenstudents, like I can hear half of the
people, like almost all the people hereare designers, all the students are
designers.

(01:27:53):
And we need water 10,000 feet high.
and it gets frozen in the pipes because ofthe temperature.
Why can't you design better pipes?
Why can't you design like, yeah, I mean,you can design an EK57 also, whatever, but
it was a very different theme altogether.
And the sad situation was when I wasaround, those who knew me were coming and

(01:28:15):
saying, sir, UIUX, like, we have to come.
I was like, man, here, the world, like,it's a different world altogether.
You are so exposed to so many differentthings.
But,
You can have like a, um, employer brandingteam in your org who has to work 24, seven
continuously to do all of this, or youjust do one of these, right?

(01:28:38):
You know, and, and you are set.
I mean, you, you don't have to continuebuilding the team throughout like a three
year period.
Yeah.
You build a team once then like a fewmonths down the line, you have to like
replenish it with new talent and all, butlike, so you, you can be set for a while.
If you do this once and really well,right.
Give you one example, like companies likePixel Space, right?

(01:28:58):
Like who's building satellites out ofIndia, like an Indian startup or Atomberg
who makes like fans, like literally fan,right?
Like now, now how many designers aretoday?
Like, you know, jumping through hopes toget to those companies, like not many
ether, right?
Like I told Tarun many times, right?
Like, um, like if you just go and showlike, yeah, we make fans, like our startup

(01:29:20):
is, but like, uh, our approach is sodifferent and we put so much design
thinking.
You can't write a blog post, you can'tpush out case studies and all, but like
someone gave a talk.
Right?
You think five people won't be interestedfrom that university to work at that
company?
100%.
Absolutely.
And it's not more than that.
Like most companies look to fill onlythose many positions, right?

(01:29:43):
It's not 50, designers never hired inbulk.
Right?
So, so it's a, it's a craft position wherelike, uh, where you have to like, just get
the intent right and like just show, Hey,like we have a design lab in our company
where we design.
fans on like a giant table.
There is an industrial design lab in ourcompany where you'll be like wire, solar.
It's like, it's a fun hobby project, butyou're building products for people.

(01:30:05):
Wow.
That just sounds like an extension of myuniversity where I go to the lab and do
the same things, but I get paid for it.
Sign me up.
You know, so I think like just, just showwhat that career looks like, you know, in
very different, different types ofcompanies would alone be worth it.
You know, you know, for,

(01:30:26):
just, just bringing these two academia andindustries together.
Yeah.
Interesting.
So how long do we have, by the way?
I think I mean, I can continue, but maybewe can just have last two questions.

(01:30:53):
One was around
I have a question about mentorship.
No, no, so you can go with that.
And then last I can conclude by probablyjust like, what's going on in the world of
AI and like, what skill sets are therenow?
Like what are your thoughts?
If you want to skip that, we can skip itbecause actually I have nothing on that.

(01:31:16):
Okay, so let's skip that.
Then I can ask with a very last trivialquestion.
Professor, I'll call it trivial sayingthat
then who has been your best hires and fromwhich background.
Your team will be happy too.
And like people like that, there will be abit of a thought type branding of a lot of
people.
If you can call out names, if you arecomfortable, if they are people.

(01:31:38):
So you can do with mentorship and thenI'll conclude with that.
Does that sound good?
Yeah.
Shreyas?
Yes, sounds good.
Okay.
Let's continue.
Yeah.
So Hardik, I also love that you brought upmentorship a little earlier in this
conversation.
And I keep going back to your notessection, but you have clearly written

(01:31:59):
about mentorship and how it's differentfrom coaching, right?
In this essay called small slopementorship.
So I want to start there where can youtouch upon about what small slope
mentorship is and maybe I can ask afollow-up on that.
Yeah, sure.
Small.
Uh, so by small slope, I only meanproximity.
I think, uh,

(01:32:19):
it's because our domain, the reason why,uh, that, that is even there.
The context behind that is our industrymoves really fast.
I think, uh, a lot of fundamentals stillremain the same.
Um, but yet, uh, the type of, let's say,uh, industries that come up, you know, the
types of domains that we, the best designsare actually working in shifts every four

(01:32:39):
to five years, right?
So, uh, what ends up happening is that if,let's say I have a mentor who's 15 years
older or like 10 years older, or even
seven to eight years older to me.
Like a lot of the advice that they wouldgive me has a higher likelihood of not
being useful to me, then if I'm advised bysomeone, let's say it was three to four

(01:33:00):
years ahead of me, you know, so three tofour years, I feel is like a sweet spot
where advice, the relevance of the adviceis very high, but it starts to decline
after that.
So by small slope, what I meant is that,uh, if, if this is how the growth happens,
like you want to look no further than
three to four years ahead of you and justconstantly tag along almost.

(01:33:23):
You know, like if I want to be mentored bysomeone, I'll just be tagged.
I'll tag along with them and like I'll, Iwill share experiences.
We will share learnings, you know, they'llopen up their, their personal journal to
me.
Right?
Like almost that, Hey, like this is whatI'm going through.
These are my observations, my learnings.
Like hopefully if you read, you will atleast know that whatever you are going

(01:33:44):
through.
Most people go through the same things,right?
Less it's more like it builds compassionand stuff.
So I think that the compassion, therelevance, the likelihood of it being
useful, all decline, the higher the Deltagets, right?
Because obviously their lived experienceswould be of a slightly different time,
purely because of speed of tech.
If there was, let's say like a differentdomain, right?

(01:34:05):
Like for example, cricket, right?
Like in cricket, I don't think, I mean,everybody could still take mentorship from
Sachin, even though he's been retired forover 10 years now.
But let's say in a slightly differentworld of design, that'll be hard to do.
Or even tech, right?
A lot of how people used to do webdevelopment, like a lot of that is now

(01:34:27):
outdated, right?
Like web development now happens verydifferently in companies, right?
Like a lot of new roles have come up andstuff.
So I think this is just to respond withthe way the world is evolving.
Like you ought to look no further thanthat.
But I've seen anomalies.
Obviously there are outliers, right?
have mentors who are 12 years older thanme, 10 years older than me, still
providing spot on advice, but also someadvice does become timeless.

(01:34:51):
As I said, right?
Like consistency showing up, just beingsincere and all of that.
So like, it's not the end of the world.
If you have someone much older, you know,I put myself in that bucket.
Now having designers who are 22, 23 in myteam.
But, but you can see the difference,right?
Like I can't give them the same advice asa mentor shares, you know, like if,

(01:35:12):
Like I wouldn't give them the same advicethat I would give to, let's say someone
like Sankalp, who's like literally threeyears behind me, in age, right?
Like I think he's, he's a much betterdesigner than I am, but, but someone who's
12 years younger and I have them, right?
So very, it's a, you know, messes withyour brains, but, but I can't, I can't.

(01:35:32):
So, so then I start to learn to kind ofhave isolated conversations, you know,
like this, these people, like you kind ofgive them slightly different type of
advice.
The younger Janta, like you, you tell themvery different things.
So you have to kind of compartmentalize.
And that's what I meant there.
The cricket team now probably should talkto a hard to come here.

(01:35:54):
It's rough.
You know, like sign like a brand deal, youknow,
But there's something that's, you know,obviously been very valuable to me as well
in my journey as an entrepreneur and I'vewritten about this topic, right?

(01:36:15):
Like for me, Sidhu and Abhinit, forexample, have been like super helpful in
my journey.
And I really feel like we should really,you know, mention names of people who
really helped us on that journey.
I think in general in the industry.
Can you sort of, you know, talk about afew people who've been...
very influential in the journey, obviouslymentions who need the measure, but are

(01:36:37):
there any other folks you want to mentionwho have really helped you along the way?
I think I've, I've had like many long, youknow, like elaborate conversations with
Harish, you know, and like in my momentsof like self doubt or in my moments of

(01:36:58):
like, what is even all of this, you know,like I think he ends up being
someone I admire a lot and like derive alot of energy from, right?
The guy is literally like leading a team,almost a co-founder, right?
And has a music band, travels all aroundthe world playing.
He ends up being one very, very strongmentor.

(01:37:20):
And I'm fortunate that, that I, you know,he's always afforded time.
Another one is Apur.
Apur Pandit who was a
you know, the head of products at Instamo,you know, we have still kept in touch, I
still ping him for like, any randomquestion I have without context, and he
would kind of take time out, you know, tojump on a call or like answer or like help

(01:37:43):
out with a like very thoughtful note.
You know, and like, the funny thing islike every time I feel I've become smart,
and I've become like a visor, you send
like the situation to them and you explainyour actions, they would reply with
something, some perspective that youactually never had.
And you're like, Oh, God, how did I missthis?

(01:38:05):
Yes, it makes so much sense.
Right.
And like, so you always get, you know,wised up by somebody, you know, and then
you are thankful because, like you, it'shard without without, you know, like, like
it's so lonely.
Otherwise.
Right?
Like you can't talk to you, talk to yourteam about your problems.

(01:38:25):
You can't talk to your founders all thetime about your problems.
Uh, you know, because those relationshipsare not meant to be that.
So it's only, it's only these people, youknow, like who you can continue, uh, going
back to, you know, I have, uh, there'sthis friend of mine.
I mean, you can derive mentorship frompeople younger than you also, right?
Like there's no age, uh, age factor, uh,here, uh, friend I consider, uh,

(01:38:52):
You know, as a mentor is Mohit who runshis own startup now, you know, investment.
Mohit is now someone who always bringsthat validation that I oftentimes need.
Everybody needs validation.
Right?
Like, Hey, like you see how far you'vecome, you know, like every time I kind of

(01:39:12):
crib about like, yeah, it's not goingwell.
It's not going well.
Like, what's the point?
You know, like,
a B a B I thought I had sorted everythingout and now it's all crumbling down again.
And then he's like, him being a founder, Ibecome a sounding board for him also,
because he brings similar problems also.
So it's kind of like a feedback loop thatis that is vital because see, oftentimes,

(01:39:33):
like you can't, I mean, your spouse willnot be of the same domain sometimes,
right?
Like they, it's very hard to have theseconversations at home all the time.
Right?
So you need this, this outlet where peoplewho either have had similar experiences,
or
or kind of can completely call out your BSon some of them.
Right?
Like, oh, man, who takes stress on this?

(01:39:54):
You know, like, so these are the people,you know, Apur, Mohit, Harish.
These are people I consider.
And then obviously there are there aremore.
Deepak Abbott has always offered a helpfulword whenever I've needed one.
You know, like, you see, I think thepowerful thing here is like, imagine how

(01:40:14):
impactful it can be when someone soaccomplished.
you know, who you speak to just says this,you'll be fine.
I know you will be fine.
You know, and that honestly is some days.
That's all you need.
You know, to keep going because you know,you're capable.

(01:40:34):
You know, you'll solve it.
You know, no one else is going to come.
You have to solve it.
You have to push it.
You have to make things happen.
But that belief keeps going up and down.
You just need to say that someone refuel.
Bro, this belief has decreased a little,fill it up.
So it's just a, it's just a fuel pump thatyou have, right?

(01:40:56):
That bro, go and, you know, fill up somepetrol so that you can go back to, go back
to work the next day.
So I'm happy to have like some seven,eight people now, you know, in different
contexts, but a few have remained constantover the last decade.
Yeah.
That's awesome.
Nice.
Cool.
I think, yeah, this is a long conversationand I wish we can continue.

(01:41:20):
Maybe we'll connect back again for aseparate episode.
To talk about something else.
But just to conclude, I wanted to asklike.
Actually, I'm not the best hires.
Your point is second seat at the table.
Let's do it on that because that's a moreinteresting question.

(01:41:41):
Okay.
Yeah.
So, Hardik, I wanted to conclude with ourmost buzzword, right?
Seat at the table.
A lot.
And you started in earlier references.
You said that when you hire someone junioror someone like fresh,
that there's no sense of entitlement.
While I have seen like a lot of designers,there is a baggage of, yeah, I don't know,

(01:42:08):
maybe coming right from Steve Jobs to theindustry so far.
So a lot of people think we already have aseat at the table, right?
And you have written an article about italso.
So can you just elaborate more on that?
Like how, is it earned?
Is it kind of?

(01:42:30):
some mentors, some founders really valueit.
How does these dynamics play and whatadvice slash tip would you give to young
designers when they say that, I don't haveanyone listening to me.
Yeah.
No, I think it's a very simple answer thatsome places have it, some places don't.

(01:42:50):
Right.
And I obviously have been very fortunatethat Unacademy has never had that problem.
Part of the reason why I took the job wasalso
because it was made very clear at thetime, right?
I think places that don't have them,right?
They become very challenging, right?
It's, I mean, even Brian Chesky had saidthat recently, right?
Like you can't make a company designoriented later, right?

(01:43:12):
Either you are design-minded from theget-go or you are not.
And there are no...
single ways to become successful also.
It's not that a design company not designminded would actually fail.
Like you can succeed through many othermeans also.
It says that design is a specific way ofbuilding and empathizing with users and

(01:43:35):
all.
That way is in many contexts slightly morelikely.
So, but again, like this, by the way, thisis still a choice.
A lot of founders still end up making achoice where like as a function, they
don't want to give
design as a function or seated at thetable, right?
Like they just operate in a way where likethe design decision-making see the design

(01:43:58):
happens, whether a designer is involved ornot.
Right?
Like that's, that's what we say.
Right?
Like, so even if a designer is notinvolved, some design work happens,
decision-making happens, user-basedthinking happens, right?
Like poor or not, at least you don't havethat barometer because a designer formally
did.

(01:44:19):
So what ends up happening is that's achoice.
A lot of founders say that I'm okay,taking the costs of not having a designer,
but I don't want to benefit that come withit, or rather they see them as oftentimes
costs also, right?
Like I don't want the burden of having adesign function because they might slow us
down or they might have opinions or theymight not have objective ways of deciding
whatever would be the reason.

(01:44:39):
Now, what could you, so, so point is thatmore or less this decision is already
taken at a company level.
Right?
Like it actually is not, I mean, whenpeople say, how can I have seated the
table?
No, you, you either already have it or youdon't.
Right.
If you have it, if your function has aseat at the table, then the only next
question you can ask is whether you willever get a chance to sit on it or somebody

(01:45:02):
sits there on your behalf, right?
Like your manager or boss or leader orsomeone else.
Right.
So the point is that design, this decisionis kind of decided much, much earlier in
the formative days of the company.
And later.
The actual question is, what are you doingwith it?
What are you doing with it?
And this is what my point of that articlealso was.

(01:45:25):
Most of the work we do is untethered.
And when I say untethered, most of thedesign work we do is untethered is we
don't actually connect it to, mostly wedon't end up connecting it to outcomes.
And it's changing, by the way.
So I'm noticing a shift in companies wherethe maturation is happening.
This was more.
true, let's say over the last four or fiveyears, then it is today, 2020, three,

(01:45:49):
four, like as designers started to as theaverage seniority level in companies of
designers started to rise up, they havestarted taking more ownership, they have
started being more accountable foroutcomes.
So this is changing.
But but it's not yet a fully solvedproblem.
Like, right, like for a product manager,the their entire work starts with

(01:46:11):
accountability, right?
For a designer, it's
it's oftentimes an afterthought or it'sattached later.
I think when designers start their workwith accountability, that's what it means
to have a seat at the table because younow are invested in the success or failure
of this.
Like you have a skin in the game.

(01:46:34):
This is also why a lot of the times like
people who outsource work or people whowork as a team who's outsourced a design
team, even despite they're on the payrollof the company, right?
Like they feel like we operate like anagency.
We sit in the corner, we get projects fromhere, we work and give them.
After that, when did it happen live?
Did it happen on live time or not?
Because of our design choices, timelinesmessed up.

(01:46:58):
We have no say in that or we actuallydon't take ownership of any of that.
That's honestly not what seated the tablelooks like.
Did you start with a problem statement?
Did you involve or not?
Did you do initial whiteboarding with theteam?
Did you show a direction?
Did you show a range of possibilities?
Did you end up, you know, participating intaking important decisions that led to

(01:47:21):
design before it even got to the pixels?
Right.
So is your involvement, the on-feedinvolvement of yours, is that already
there before?
So it's, it's literally like a, if youzoom out the, the
the ownership or design, see that thetable looks like this, right?
Like you're part of the formativeconversations.
A lot of them are still words in the air,right?

(01:47:42):
Debates, words, discussions, pros andcons, market analysis.
It's all verbal.
Then there is like planning, which isstill again, verbal.
Then there is actual design work, which isthis slice.
And after that, there is the entireexecution work or production work.
Right?
So.
For this, if you, if you sit here, if younever leave these walls, right?

(01:48:05):
Like you would have no right to complainabout.
I don't have a seat at the table andstuff.
Right.
And honestly, oftentimes, you need adesigner.
Don't even have a choice.
They, they, they somehow have to remainconfined in this, but the lead designers
or the design managers and all, they haveno reason to remain confined to this.
They have to operate in the margins.
Right.
And in order to operate in the margins,you have to talk sense.

(01:48:26):
You have to bring value.
Why?
I'll give you an example.
Let's say a company is creating a zero toone product, right?
And, and they are create, they havecreated a team of product manager,
designer, engineering, staffing is done.
It's an invested project.
Should we launch, let's say, in multiplecountries?

(01:48:47):
Should we launch in, let's say, India andSoutheast Asia?
Now this question comes up.
You think a designer should not or cannotadd value to this?
100% they can.
What does it take?
You have to go research.
What are other products, similar productsin the other markets?
How successful have they been?
What was the role design played in theirsuccess?
You can give four inputs, right?

(01:49:08):
The other thing could be, let's say,
How long should, like what should be ourMVP?
Right?
What should be our MVP?
We have taken so many frameworks onDelight as an industry of, as a cohort of
designers.
It's not your responsibility to helpthere.
To how, what a good MVP should be.

(01:49:30):
What should be the first product that welaunch?
Your copies of the notification.
It's so much of a mess.
As a designer, your responsibility is notto own the product communication.
At least I have a say or a perspectiveabout it.
How will your product be marketed?
Did you make a launch video about it?
Did you make like an influencer videoabout it?
Did you launch it in like a different way?

(01:49:50):
Is, are you not, are you not invested inthat problem statement?
Are you not invested in the packaging ofthe product?
Brand of the product?
Tone and voice on social media for theproduct?
So I think it's, it's about
See, I mean, the funny thing withownership is that, uh, it honestly doesn't
stop anywhere.
For all you know, I could also like, uh,say, why are there lights in the office?

(01:50:12):
Why are you turning off the lights atnight?
There's no end to ownership.
So I feel, uh, we see it's, it's very, uh,we, we like complaining, honestly, as a,
as a species.
And I think, uh, a little bit of this ismore for us.
It's also because pixels are verycomforting.
People are hard.
Right.
So I'm always.

(01:50:32):
a easy problem.
Yeah.
They pixel to solve.
Oh, it's like that.
Now pixel to solve.
Okay.
So back there.
Baka ka come to look.
They clean it.
Are they were they clean it.
As a ownership.
Neha Tina.
I'll go.
I get, I get.
I love you.
You would have to expand your horizons ofownership.
That's, that's what I'll tell you.
Like I have seen two or three actualexamples of designers being invited to.

(01:50:53):
Preemptive conversations about a new ideaor a new problem statement, just because
they previously added value in acompletely unrelated context.
because people don't forget they needhelp.
They want, they want more diverseperspectives, at least early on.
Disagree and

(01:51:32):
you have to ask for the right thing andthen justify it.
And you have to, like, you would get likea few moments here and there.
Correct.
You have to win those in order to say, no,okay, I think he got it right.
Bring him to the next meeting.
I will ask him four questions and ask forhis opinion.
Because how else would people know thatyou know so much?

(01:51:55):
Yes, I won't know by looking at your face.
You must have said something if you hadactually exhibited.
some signs of value to see it at thetable.
Cause like honestly in our company, wehave never once discussed it at the table.
Never once.
And yet every time Gaurav has an idea.
I'm the first person he pings.

(01:52:15):
Even till date.
Yeah.
To voice note.
Yeah.
To a greater note.
I got a note.
Cause screenshot.
I got a, what do you think?
And then we jam, we jam.
Usme mera conversation kabhi design pehota bhi nahi hai.
In that conversation.
It's all about like.
I got all this may work because XYZ thismay not work because that's a stickiness
me retention.
Me up I acquire.
How can we do it?

(01:52:35):
What will be high?
LTV will not be available.
Who told me to talk about these things bymetal designer.
No, but you helped eliminate the cloud.
You help bring clarity in some shape andform.
Well, I think a common, if we consider it,if we consider the whole thing as a common
purpose and we kind of apply ourselvesmore than just the pixels.

(01:52:56):
I think ownership is possible.
And by the way, I don't think designerstoday need to do anything different.
I think what already horror in a good way,things are moving in the right direction.
But it's just that, um, like, uh, this iswhat, uh, the culture of where seat has
already been awarded looks like, you know,a good seat would have been sitting Uh,
you know, help, uh, truly help out, youknow, feel them like when things aren't

(01:53:20):
going well, feel the pain, right?
Like, yeah, charge, charge solution.
You can offer it, think about it.
Oh, man, retention is not increasing.
Okay.
What have we done about it?
Have you thought about it with somedesign?
Or he will also think the same and tellyou and you will be only clear on the
seat.
So, that's a decision making table whereyou are asking for a seat.
That is not a debate table where I willjust listen.
I had to come as an audience.

(01:53:42):
Most people who ask for a seat at thetable, ask because they think that the
show is going on there.
We want a seat to watch.
No, you don't want a seat to watch.
You would have to come there and sign ondecisions yourself with your own.
pride with your own merit.
So you're going there to act.
You have to add value.
You're going there to add value.
If you're not, then the second meeting.

(01:54:03):
I've seen people getting kicked out ofmeetings from second time onwards.
If first time they did not add any value,that's how fast the feedback loops often
get.
The faster you get the seat, the faster itgoes.
That no, man, you're not getting your workdone.
Let it go.
So that's yeah.
long run, but no, no.
Yeah.

(01:54:24):
It completely makes sense.
And you, you touched a lot of points aboutlead designers working on those margins.
In fact, I add it from my side that therecould be like, this is what I tell my
designers is that irrespective of whatlevel you are, assume you're a senior or
junior designer, I think the mostfundamental value you can add is help

(01:54:44):
visualize, right?
Like the first phase you said, like wherethe verb
words chal rahe hain, I think you can justsketch, right?
Like, I mean, you know, the best practicesand you know, a little bit of hierarchy,
you know, a little bit of developerguidelines, just like sketch it out and

(01:55:05):
help like what it will be thrown away,right?
But you know how fast shapes and visualshelp close decisions is much faster than
words.
People are extremely visual.
We are visual as a species, right?
Like we
We are, it's very difficult for groups ofleaders to process words.

(01:55:26):
There are very few companies that operatethat way.
Amazon is a great example, but most othercompanies, they, they operate on like
visual, like show them this is why charts,graphs, visuals, uh, infographics.
Right.
Have a lot of value because they show themagnitude of everything.
Right.
So, uh, because our brains can't processnumbers well, our brains can't process.

(01:55:47):
If, if I were to describe a design,
in a room full of leaders from sales,marketing, product, everybody's imagining
something different.
So how do you bring them together is like,just put it on the TV.
Like, Hey, this is how I imagine thisexperience could look like.
What do you all think?
Oh wow.
Huh?
Makes so much sense.

(01:56:08):
Nice.
That's, that's like five minuteconversation.
Like that's, that's what I say.
Prototype skill meetings, right?
Like prototype skill meetings because
meetings then no longer are required.
You know how many product ideas we wouldhave killed in an academy before they even
went to engineering just because afterdesigning we realized this would not work.

(01:56:33):
So design ended up, I will write it in myperf, I ended up saving so much cost, you
know, we could have failed after buildingso much, we failed already on design.
Is that failure of design?
No, that's actually a great use of designto show why something is a bad idea.
You know, so like when you, when you, uh,when you give shape to an idea, and I

(01:56:54):
think this is something, uh, these guys atBasecamp, I think Ryan Singer is a, is a
great, uh, designer works at, uh, Basecamphas written about this, right?
Like when you give shape to your, uh, toyour ideas, you truly put them to test,
right?
You're like, okay, wow.
It becomes much, much easier to, uh,assess the merit of an idea when it takes

(01:57:17):
shape.
It's hard because words don't have shapes,right?
Like shapes have shapes.
So I think, um, that's, that's why thatand, and I think, uh, on Academy may it's
become one of the most critical functionsof our team.
We spend so much time in designing, um,you know, artifacts that are explorations

(01:57:38):
of imaginary concepts.
Only 20% of our actual work ships, by theway, rest 80%
actually is just for our internalcommunication and conversations.
You know, so it's, it's mostly for us toassess.
Like I would have designed like Sankalpknows, right?
Like we would have designed four or fivefully full fledged apps over the last

(01:58:01):
three, four years, never to write a lineof code about them.
Why after designing, this won't work.
You know, it's not because design is bad.
It's because the idea was bad.
But how did we know the idea was bad?
Because we gave it shape.
We gave it something tangible to kind ofassess it with.

(01:58:22):
Yeah.
No brilliant.
Uh, yes, you have any sense of, no, it'sjust so valuable to have that shared sense
of reality, right?
Um, and designers have that super power toactually materialize that.
Yeah.
But, but ideas like, I think it is a nineyears after the ball, okay.
By our, as a, as a group, I'm making agoal, decide, get the retention.

(01:58:45):
Is the retention improve?
No, it won't happen.
So then we are wasting time on ideas.
The idea will be great.
I am not denying it.
But does it help us as a team to win?
Design won't win in isolation.
Why should an engineer work on this idea?
Tell me one reason.
Again, if that idea is not connected tothe single goal we agreed on, why should a
developer waste a day on this?

(01:59:06):
They shouldn't.
So as soon as you create that singleevaluation, that everyone has to do this,
everybody has to do it and everybody has arole to play.
That's the only thing.
That's the only way people will feel thatshared sense of purpose and that usually
takes care of the seat.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, we'll do a separate topic, separateepisode just on this, but taking

(01:59:29):
researchers because those are furthersiloed.
Like they are like in different world.
But anyway, okay, I think I'm kind of notdone with my question, but in the interest
of time, we can wrap up this episode.
Shailesh, you wanted to add anything elsethat I've missed or you think we should
have?
No, I think this was amazing.

(01:59:50):
And maybe we can do this in person nexttime.
Given Hardik enjoys that format a lotmore.
Yeah, thank you, Hardik.
Yeah, thank you.
Thank you, Shailesh for being a co host.
And many, many thanks to Hardik for beingon the show.
It was lovely lot of, I can see how manyreels are going to be made.

(02:00:11):
So thank you.
Thanks a lot.
Thanks for being extremely patient with myrants and, uh, get a great conversation.
As I said, right.
Like these are all my favorite topics.
So I, I never get tired of talking aboutthese.
So thank you for keeping it super in depthand engaging.
Awesome.
Cool.
I will exit in out trouble.

(02:00:33):
Okay.
Uh, that's it from today's GAN session.
Uh, I once again, thanks Hardik andShreyas definitely for you to you for
being a course, uh, we should do this moreoften.
and maybe one more in the series,definitely.
Thank you all the listeners and viewersfor listening till the end.
Hope you have reached this end.
Now we are also on YouTube format, so youcan check that out.

(02:00:55):
I wish to once again thank Godrej DesignLab for bringing you this episode.
GDL, Godrej Design Lab, is an initiativeby Godrej and Bois launched in 2014.
Today, GDL continues with the intention ofmaking life brighter and better.
through exploring how design impacts ourlife and how can it make better, how can
make it better.

(02:01:16):
The team at Godrej Design Lab is focusedon engaging and engaging the community
through thought provoking events,supporting upcoming talent and showcasing
how design innovations can create betterproducts and systems.
Do follow us on Instagram at Godrej DesignLab and at AudioGAN podcast or check out
AudioGAN podcast on YouTube.

(02:01:36):
Shares on path ka plug.
Yeah, if you're, if you're a designerlooking to upscale, you should definitely
check it out.
Or if you're a design leader or productleader looking to hire, please reach out
to us we'd love to help you.
Awesome.
How did you want to have?
Are you hiring?
Are you like, whatever, like any plug thatyou want?

(02:01:59):
No, I wish I was I would I would just plugthe team though.
I think the three and a half years wouldnot have been so much fun.
so productive, if not for the phenomenalteam members, the support they have shown
and the dedication they bring is, it justmakes it a hundred times worth showing up
every day, right?

(02:02:19):
So I'm super grateful in that to them,right?
And especially the design leads that Iworked with, right?
Christian, I'll start to like, like someof them have left.
So obviously they now have their own
career trajectories, but had great fun.
Charmy who recently left a phenomenal jobthat she did here.
Sankalp who's still with us is doing greatnow leading the entire test prep.

(02:02:43):
So quite a big charter.
I'm super happy for him.
Anupati everything creative you see inour, in our products, right?
Like it's all been her ever since Ijoined.
So she's had it as many years alsophenomenal work.
Prithvi Rishi used, who's been like theR021 champs all throughout, right?
Like now they've completed like.
four and six years respectively.

(02:03:03):
So quite crazy.
So I think yeah, I could go on but thepoint stands, right?
I think it's, it's been, it's beenremarkable and one of the better team
setups that I have personally witnessedand, you know, happy to have been a
catalyst for all of this.

(02:03:24):
So I hope long, it may continue.
Great, great.
All power to you.
And yeah, look to having both of you againon audio again very soon.
Thanks.
Take care.
Bye.
Thank you.
Stop recording.

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Ep. 290 - Design leadership in startups with Hardik Pandya

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 290 - Design leadership in startups with Hardik Pandya