S1: Remixing Relationships, Sex and Intimacy

Content Warning (sexual violence, rape) In this episode, Natalie and Yolo discuss sex, dating, intimacy and the connection between the harm happening in the culture and our mental health.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
This episode includesthe discussion of sensitive topics
related to mental healthand may be activating for some viewers.
We encourage you to take care of yourself.for support and resources.
For support and resources
Please visitBEAM.COMMUNITY/GETHELPNOW
Hey, what's up, everybody?
I'm YOLO. And I'm Natalie.And this is Black Healing Remix, the podcast.

(00:20):
(music plays)
Well, really,the opportunity is to think about
what does sex and what is intimacydo in a relationship, right?
What does that doto our emotional wellness?
And, you know, obviously we ain’t alwaysdatin’ probably the best people
we should be dating. Speak for yourself.

Natalie (00:36):
Okay, I’m not always...
My statement, I get it. Ok...
Um, you know, I think when we look backat our dating history,
our lovers, the peoplethat we've been intimate with, sometimes
there's a lot of distress that comes outof these unstable relationships.
A lack of communication,a lack of clarity and transparency.

(00:57):
I know that in my early twenties,dating was a hot mess, right?
And as I've gotten older,I've been able to make better choices.
But that doesn't meanthat there's not stuff
that comes up in the context of dating,relationships and sex.
And so, how do we talkabout our mental health in connection
to the lovers we takeI know or the choices we make to not take?

(01:19):
I know I would love to beginthis conversation with thinking about
what are some of the primary factorsthat lead us to choose partners we choose.
I'm thinking about like, you know,from a psychological perspective, right?
Like how we often are attracted to peoplewho often imbue patterns or behaviors
that are similar
to those of the primary caregiverswe grew up around.

(01:39):
Meaning we datin’
the people that are like our family,like our parents, right?
Or other people might bean aunty, might be like an uncle or
Whoever is the people that brought you up
Yeah.
Sometimes that becomesthe comfort, the norm for us.
And if we're not working to unpack that,
then oftentimesit shows up in our romantic relationships

(02:00):
Because we kind of we embodywhat has been modeled for us.
Absolutely
Right, and so we often sometimes will takeon the roles of one of the primary
caregivers. Or sometimes,you know, in different dynamics.
And some of those dynamics, unfortunately,aren't always healthy.
Aren’t always loving.
And if you don't
have the if
you don't have the skills, toolsor resources to be able to discern, like,

(02:22):
why am I attracted to these kindsof people, why am I choosing these people?
It's not an attraction
Because we attracteda whole bunch of people, but who do I choose?
That's the important piece.
And why do I keep choosing them?
And what is that about for me?
And I think the additional layer
and I think, you know, as a, as a personwho has been cultured as a woman,
it's actually not been taught to methat I get to choose.

(02:46):
But that it's actually about mebeing chosen.
And so who likes me best, right?
And so sometimes it's the love bombing,right?
It's the personwho will be obsessed with you,
which we obviously in later years,you realize, like, whoa, that is not it.
Right?
But in my early twenties, in my teens, itwas whoever showed me the most attention.
Then I was like, “Oh,I got to date this person.”

(03:06):
“Oh, they like me.”
I'm obligated to like them backsimply because they like me,
as opposed to what I learned laterwhere I get to choose.
And also,what does that mean, right?
When we do get to chooseand we are aware of that,
what is the societal pressurethat comes with
You better choose the right thing.
Right.

(03:27):
And all of those layers
And it's no different for you as a woman,and me, as a queer person, right?
Like having receiving like zero
to none to zero messaging aroundrelationships and dynamics, right?
Like, I mean,I can look at my relationship history
and see clear delineations connected to,you know, the people who raised me.
I can see how one partner in particular,

(03:50):
you know, I in that relationship,I walked on eggshells around him.
He had an explosive temper,
but that felt familiar to whatI grew up with.
You're like, I know how to navigate this.
And so and also, as in my own little innerchild was deeply in that relationship
because, you know, as a child,I thought I was responsible

(04:11):
for the anger of the people,the adults in my life.
And it was something that I was bad,why they were kind of like explosive.
And so in their relationship,I found myself in this dynamic
with this man where he was explosiveall the time and I felt responsible.
And he,
through his own stuff, made me responsiblefor every explosive moment he had.
And so here I am, caught up in this traumabond, essentially, right?

(04:33):
Where it feels...and I think one thing people talk about, like you can be
in these really, quote-unquote,we could say toxic dynamics.
But they also feel like homeand they feel familiar.
Absolutely.
They feel like the shame you know.They can feel, the unpredictability of them
the way this wavering like is up and down,that even that that wave
can be somethingyou can become very enmeshed in

(04:55):
and like and crave
And give you purpose.
In many ways. If you don't have
other things that feel pressingand important and compelling.
Now this drama
and now this churning in the relationshipbecomes the thing that gives you purpose.
“Oh, well,
I know I have to call them at this timebecause if I don't, they get upset.”
Right?
All of these different pieces whereit's like, “Oh, huh, that's a dynamic.”

(05:18):
And when we look back, there'sprobably a connection between the dynamics
that we're currently experiencingor maybe previously experiencing to our
home life.
Yeah, I mean, like for me,also another dynamic in relationships is
I learned very early on that
to appease and dismiss
my experience in the favor of men's anger.

(05:39):
Right.
That would that
if men were where men were angrythen like it didn't matter what I felt,
it was really what they needed.
I mean, not I hear you on this onebecause for me it's about safety.
If a man gets angry,
what is my physical safety like?
So I just de-escalate to be safeand I circle back when I got to strategy

(06:04):
about how I'm going to do thisand navigate this right.
And so I think many of us are culturedin this way of like
if a man, particularly is upset now becomes a physical threat
and that becomes the dominating thingor the dominating voice
doesn't matter actually,what the logistics of the situation were.
If I'm legitimate in feeling whatever,because we know

(06:25):
our feelings are valid, right?
Even if the dynamics are murky,how I feel is actually valid.
Equally yours too.
But we know that that doesn'talways play out
when we think about gender,when we think about physical size,
when we think about all of inner strengthand all of those different things,
it gets muddy.
It does get muddy.
I think about the ways in which therewere men in my community who

(06:51):
had tempers, which I think connectedto depression and a lot of other things.
that were navigating, right?Pressures in society.
The ways also I was taught
very early on to dismiss and pretendlike it's not as bad as you think it is.
And I see that with a lot of familiesI work with.
The communities we work withis that, it's like you have
it's not even just know as it's a man,it's not his mom, it's whoever.

(07:11):
But thes coping strategy is to pretendthat it's not that bad.
And then like ending up in relationshipswhere you learn to gaslight yourself
the same way you were gaslit by the peoplearound you to be like, It's not that bad
when he or she or they are doing somethingabusive, harmful, hurtful to you.
You know, because it becomesthe threshold and standard.

(07:32):
Right?
And this important piece to today,
when you’re raisedand reared in volatile environments,
your threshold for what constitutes
pain and harm is different from someonewho may not be in the same volatility.
Like if you were raising a family,
or community where people cursingand throwing things is the standard
then like your baselinefor what harm is, is is here.

(07:52):
But if you’re raised in a community where likethat's not the standard, when no one
even yells, then you're completely like,what's going on?
Right.
But if you if you were raised on this thresholdthat you don't even see that as violence.
And you see it's an expectation.That this is the way we communicate.
“Oh, it's finebecause this is the way we communicate”
And I'm like, whoa, But like, what doesthat psychologically do to us over time?

(08:14):
And then also, I think about very oftenwhen you're in your first good
relationship, right, Whatever that is.
But you know, when you're in theirfirst relationship that feels more mature
with a person who can like, appropriatelycommunicate with you is tender
and you have been conditioned to fight.
Yes, come on, say it.
And you're like, “No, but I don't like”

(08:34):
And they're like,“I'm sorry that you feel that way.”
“I'm sorry that I am validating you.”And you're like...
What?
Now what?
Because it's boring.
It's also likebecause you're almost like
not so much of an addiction,but it is almost like you're
you're, you're pulled into the churningand the chaos.
And so when the chaos is not present,you don't know how to relate because

(08:55):
because relating in home and intimacy,the way it was modeled for you
is through that chaos.
And so you just like, “What is this?”
“This isn't real.”
“Y'all can't be real.”
“Y’all fake because this ain’t this”
For me, the first time that happened,I just remembered, like, the anger
and the rage was in my body still.
Even though the conflict was over.

(09:16):
Yeah.
And I was like,“So what am I supposed to do with that?”
Where does this go now?
Because usually where it goesis we go back and forth.
Yep, yep.
And then one of us goes, “I'm tired of this”
You know,whatever the dynamics are, right?
And then it's overbecause someone walked away.
But when no one walks away
and it's over because someone apologized,who, but you still got all this churning

(09:39):
you like and they like, “Are you just,you want to watch a movie now?”
And you’re like, “No, I don't even know howto sit still right now.”
Like, “I don't know how to be with this.”
And I think a lot of times when we'rein our first like adult relationships
and our first, you know, like healingjourney relationships, that is so, so,
so challenging.
Disorienting because allbecause now you have the space.

(10:00):
What happens is
like when you get into a dynamic,whether it's a romantic or even not romantic,
sometimes friendships. You get into a dynamic where like there is
space and tenderness and careand you haven't been to spaces like that.
It's like now all of your stuffhas an opportunity to rise to the surface
and you become more aware like,“Oh wait, I am actually really traumatized
by how much men have lied to me.”

(10:21):
And Gaslit me.
And now I'm starting to look for ways inwhich gaslighting and lying are happening
in your behavior.
I'm starting to even like because that'sabout our brain, that's our fear response,
trauma response. Our brains are literally, like, “This feels familiar.”
So, you know, like,so it starts looking for the alert.
And sometimes what happens with trauma,as we know, is it distorts our vision.

(10:41):
So we start seeing things throughthat lens and we're looking at like,
“Oh, that hat is purple.”“Like girl, that's a pink hat.”
But you see purple like, “No, it's purple.”
“I know it's purple.”
Then you find out it’s pinkand you feel like, “Oh my goodness.”
Right.
Because you've been conditionedin an environment
where lying and and dishonestyand betrayal
and all those things are so enmeshedthat this feels foreign

(11:03):
And that oftentimes we're not naming itthose things,
We’re naming it as a culture like“This is what the way things are,” right?
We just say like, ”Oh he ain’t shit.” Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We're like, “Oh, I'm off that.”Or we just name it some like phrase,
but we don't say like,I actually felt betrayed.
Yeah, right.
Right. Like I think about cheating culture,right?
And how often peopleare cheating on each other and breaking

(11:23):
the kind of trust and agreementsthat they made with each other
and people, we just go like, “Oh, you know, that that's how that is.”
I hear women say all the time,“I expect to be cheated on.”
“I just don't want to be embarrassed.”
“But I expect to be cheated on.”
And I'm like, well, yeah,if this is what we got to expect, like,
It's like, we can't expect.

(11:44):
It's almost as if we don't.
We believe that the expectationthat someone would communicate to me
their sexual needs, to communicate to mewhat they need or what they want
that is so unrealisticand “wow” that I have to custom myself
to betrayal and dishonesty,which is always been a big thing for me.
Because I'm just like, “Oh,that’s a struggle for me.”
Like, you know, because I'm always like,Look, I've been in relationships.
I'm like, If I want to have sex with somebody else,

(12:05):
I'll have a conversation with you.
Let you know, “Hey, look,we might need to break this off.”
Here's like, because, like, because to me,relationships are contracts.
Yeah.
So just like any other contract,you put in the clauses that you need
for your well-being.
And if somebody don'twant to sign a contract, don't sign on.
If my contract says, guess what,“I am in a poly dynamic, I'm monogamous”
or whatever, or “I need to have a weekendin Rio for” or whatever.

(12:27):
Like I would ratherhave the upfront honesty,
then live my life under the high bloodpressure, producing anxiety, depression,
producing sneakiness of hiding and lyingand pretending
like it's not than being dishonest.
Because that destroys families.
And I think what pisses me offa lot about that,
the cheating culture thing isI have so many people
I know I see on Twitter
and social media, talk all this shitabout care, about mental health.

(12:48):
I see there are few things
that destroy people's self-esteem, a senseof self-worth, than betrayal,
than dishonesty, than like manipulation.
And on one hand you say, “Oh, I'm going to help.”
But everything you are doing otherwiseis about this level of dishonesty.
It's not encouraging men, women, all ofus, to be like, “Say it with your chest.”

(13:09):
“And live it with your chest.”
And living it with our chest is hard if ain’t done no work.

Yolo (13:15):
That's true. Natalie
You get in these dynamics and I thinkabout that as it relates to sex, right?
One of the things that I establish pretty early on in my like sexual
life was having a pre and postsex conversation.
And almost 99%
of the people that I have slept withshout out to you all,

(13:35):
You're winning.
But but, but in all seriousness,
99% of people are likeyou want to talk about it before
and then you also wantto talk about it after.
Like “What are we going to talk about?”
And I'm like, “Pleasure. What you like.”
And for me, I'm like,if you can't articulate

(13:57):
what feels good to you, what consent means.
If you can't, like, communicatethose things,
then how do I know thatI'm actually holding you in dignity?
How do I actually know at the end of this
that this has beena pleasurable experience?
Or do we just do whatever our bodies do?
And then we did and just go, “Well,it was what it was, what it was.”
And I think for me, I'm like,I'm not satisfied with that low bar.

(14:21):
I'm like, I want a full experience.
I want to forget aboutall the other things that's happening.
I want to be like, “Oh, yes, this was the thing I wanted to do today.”
And if I don't feel like that,I'm kind of like,
“Okay, I guess” like if we can't lock in, what are we doing?
Yeah, no, I'm with you.
I think like dating black gaymen and quer men

(14:41):
that has been rough, right?
Because I feel like a lot of black men,so much of the self esteem is built on sex
Like you may not be
you may not be, you may not have a job,you may not have the money.
But I can lay it down.
And we're all saying
that people say they can lay it down
but I got some receipts that say other thingsYolo: I'm telling you.

(15:02):
So...but that's the whole thing.A lot of black men.
So like but what ends up happeningis the reason you don't want
they won’t ask the questions
Because they don’t want to findthat they actually can’t lay it down
because your self-esteem is built onthis kind of like, shaky system
of not asking, assuming like,you know, all the performative orgasms,
you know, I mean, like
because I perform some orgasms, tell ‘em like, “Bruh, this needs to be over.”

Natalie (15:23):
Awards.
I'm about to give you..I've got Soul Train awards It was like “best performance
of a fake ass orgasm with thistriflin’ n...” Yolo
Like, you know what I mean?Like, literally, like, literally.
I was up there with Ashanti like
What up?? Natalie: Oh, my God,
Not with Ashanti,but she got a Soul Train award.
But no, I think that, like, you know,it's interesting even talking about that.
Like, I remember even in my early sex life,

(15:45):
like I'm short, I'm like,you know, moderately light skinned.
I know whatever,whatever you want to call it.
Depends on what color, I be like, right?
And, you know,
really being pushed into being like, “Oh, you must like receptive anal sex.”
And that was really and really being likeand me being like, “I don’t know if I like it”
I don't know yet that.
But gay culture
That’s what y’all tell me.
Gay culture being like
“This is what you will like,this is what you will enjoy.”

(16:07):
And I remember like having sex and being like, “This kind of wasn't, this wasn’t it.”
But I rememberthis is such an interesting intersection.
I think we talked about before, oneof my good girlfriends, straight woman,
I remember telling her I was like,“Hey, look, I had sex
with this dud and I didn't like it that much.” She said, “Oh, you're not supposed to like it.”
“You like it because he likes it.”
“That's how penetration is.”
And I was like, “Oh shit.”

(16:28):
And I'm in college thinking thisand thinking that, and for years
thought I was like, “Oh yeah, youjust like it, they like it.”
And you ain’t supposed to like it. You supposed to like cus they like it.
I know, it’s so deep, right?
Because then you think about like straightwomen orgasms and the levels
the low levels of straight womenwho actually have orgasms.
Right?Natalie: Low.
And then you're thinking about the waysin which also women and receptive

(16:51):
sexual partners are conditioned
to not really like what's happening,but to just give pleasure to whoever,
But also because no one is talkingand that no one I know these are,
you know what I'm saying?
But like, how many peopleare actually talking about
and can say, this is what feels pleasurable to my body?
I like this kind of touch.

(17:11):
And equally, if you shared that withyour partner, would they be receptive?
Yeah, because I've shared with partners.
“Hey, I don't really like when you do X,y, z, like the intensity
or I don't like this thing or whatever”and they like, “That's what I do.”
And I'm like, “Oh,well then you got to do it
with somebody else”because this ain't, this ain't that.
I don't want that.

(17:32):
And now we are an impassebecause what you thought was a vibe
I now have feedback for.
(music plays)
You know, it's so interesting causeI don't think that I think across
like sexual orientationin the black community
and gender identity,many of us just don't get...
So we learn about how to have sex from porn.
Oh, right.
And what sex should look like from porn.If we're honest...

(17:54):
It is a video shoot.
They try to get the best lightingAnd the best...
It's not about pleasure.
But what happens
is everyone's trying to, a lot of people
are trying to get into that performative ritual.
I can tell you how many times I'm like,you know, had casual intimacy with people.
I'm like, You can feel the script.Okay, I'm doing this.
To the left. To the right.
Like, you can feel the omnipresent camerathere because we're doing the script

(18:15):
and we're not actually honoringwhat we like.
We're not communicating.
We haven't even explored it.
We haven't explored it.
And I think that like there'sa lot of fear about talking about that.
But I be like, “So tell me,how was that for you?”
“Oh, Why you want to talk about it?”
I'm like, “Wait, what?”
Like, let's just have a conversation.
Because I think once again,sex is a very like a lot of folks
hold a lot of shame around sex,a lot of fear of hearing things about sex,

(18:37):
you know, and so, like,it's tricky for people.
Oh, of course.
And not to say that it is not trickyfor us.

Yolo (18:44):
Right. Right. Yes, right. Natalie
A lot of my sexual historyis tainted by sexual violence.
Right?
That at a very early age, that was my introduction to pleasure.
Right.
Is being molestedas a young person. Right?
I'm thinking about the many, many timesthat has happened in adulthood, right.

(19:05):
Where I'm like, “I did not say, yes,this was this is not what was happening.”
And now you put mein this awkward ass position to have to either
physically fightyou or to take the L and be like,
“Here we go again.”
With another person whois not trying to be present
understand, isn’t like, I'm I'm an object.

(19:28):
I'm not a whole human. Right?
I ain't got no heartbeat.
I'm just a thingfor you to be experiencing right now.
And I think about how
how I've had to work throughso much of that trauma around
like some of those sexual experiencesbeing violent
and others being thingswhere it's like slealthing, right?
Where it's like we agree to use a condom.

(19:49):
And then I discover, Oh, you, you actuallytook it off in the midst of this.
And now I'm left unprotected, number one.
And number two, like, I can agree to this.Now you done created a whole...
Now I got to get the plan B. I got to...
Now you've made my lifeso much more complicated.
And are you willing to take responsibility for that?
For that, that's what happened.

(20:10):
And I think in the experience of likehaving this experience of being self,
I went back to him and I was like,
Hey, so I just want to like checkin the next day.
And I said, you know, I said,“What was the experience like for you?”
And he was like, “This is amazing.”
“And I'm so excitedand so glad we're dating.”
And I was like, “Well, I have to be honest,that was not my experience at all.”

(20:31):
And he was like, “What do you mean?”
And I was like,
“Well I agreed to have sex with a condom”
and later discovered thatthat's not actually what happened fully.
And so, like, “that's not okay with me.”
And he's like, “Well,what are you trying to say?”
And I was like, “Exactly what I said”
that, like, “the agreement was broken”

(20:52):
and now you've put me in a riskthat I was not willing to have
and now have put me in a positionto potentially be pregnant,
to be potentially exposed to STDs,to be potentially all kinds of things.
Are you prepared to be responsiblefor whatever comes from that decision?
And he was like,“Well, I'm not one of those dudes.”
No one's ever said thatI am, I'm that kind of person.

(21:14):
And I said, I recognize that, like,we have a culture
that says the dude who rapes peopleand the dude who is somebody else.
And sir, today that somebody is you.
And so just because nobody elsehad the bravery to have this conversation with you
It's actually happened to me so many times
that I am now brave enough to sayyou have absolutely violated me.

(21:37):
You have absolutely
absolutely put me in a positionthat I did not desire to be in.
And we gon' talkabout responsibility now.
And it was like this whole momentwhere I said, “this doesn't have to be”
“a ruined experience.”
“It could be an experiencethat we learn and grow through.”
“But are you ready for that?”
He ain't ready for that.
But that was the opportunity, right?

(21:58):
I was like, “You're in therapy.”
“I want to encourage you to talkto your therapist about this experience.”
What's the point of having a therapist
if you're not really willing to talk aboutwhat's actually happening?
Ain't going to be no actual growth here.
And this delusion that we arenot the people that we actually are.
That ain't real.
And at what point do we getwith the reality and also stop

(22:18):
harming other peoplein the midst of our own dysfunction?
Yeah, and it's it's
first of all, like, you know, you sharingthat it's like brings up so much, right?

Natalie (22:29):
Yeah.
Because it's like so many experiencesand so many women tell the stories
and not even just women, people, peopletalking about those experiences.
And as so many thingsI'm thinking about thinking about
the ways in which we have
normalized for
black women, men and black women,that that is to be expected.
Absolutely. That that is acceptable as a norm.

(22:51):
Mm hmm.
That like I remember,I have a friend years ago
who told me she was like,I didn't realize, when she started dating women
She talks about this experienceand not to say that women are
better than men or whatever. She says...
There was a way that I didn't realizemen were related to my body, that I didn't
realize how disturbing it was until I waswith a woman who was loving to me.
And I was like, Whoa.

(23:13):
Mm hmm.
And I think about that
because I think about the mental healthand wellness of black women
and how the ways in which black men andanybody who's having sex with black women
relates to black women's bodies.
And it's deeply misogynistic, deeply
alienating, deeply disrespectful way
Just entitled.
Entitlement, entitled like

(23:36):
what if I don't want to be devoured?
What if I actually want tenderness?
Mm hmm.
What if I actually want love?
You got that?
Or you just only got your machismo,your machismo?
You'll I'm about to prove.
So I'm a like all the ways that we talkabout sex, right?
I'm about to tear itup, and I'm about to, and I'm like,

(23:58):
What? Natalie: Yeah.
So, like, are you 13?
Like, can you come with something morethan that was a way to dating the guys.
It was so weird too, dating the guys.
that were like when they starttalking about sex, they revert to 12.
You be like,why do you revert to 12 years old?
Like, like, Oh, pussy, huhhh!
Okay. Wow. What just happened?
What the fuck just happened?
Why did you become 16 all of...again?
You are a 40 year old manor we can't name genitalia

(24:19):
what they're actually named, right?
There's this whole thing that happens
that we need to get caught inat some point, right?
Where we have to, like, interrogate like,
“Oh, is this actually the kind of experiencethat I want to be having?”
Is this...?
And I think about as people transitioninto like an age or a time in their life
when they, like, want to be marriedand are going to have sex
with the same personpotentially for many, many years. Right.

(24:40):
That changes the waysin which you ‘finna navigate this.
When you start having kids.
Oh all thiswe bout to it down for you.
Okay. Right.
With your two year old
Like you know what I mean?
It's like, where is the practical versionof intimacy?
Not just sex, but intimacy.
And do we only see as penetration?
Do we see it as porno style?

(25:02):
Yeah. Yeah.
Let me tell you,
Like one of my biggest beefs,and I know the gays gonna to get on me
I absolutely loathe and detest,
and I struggle with the ways in which gaymen particularly have been taught
to like socialize sexuality into bottomand top. Because when somebody is like,
I'm a top or bottom, that tells me shitabout what you like.
It tells me nothing about whatyou sexually enjoy

(25:23):
and like it unlike
and like the idea that I had to center,my whole sexuality around this act,
just the one thing,the one thing it's always been like I do
a lot of other things in sexthat I don't, aren't related to.
So, why I got to, I don’t call myself
I've built an identity around my nipplelicking - that's not happening.
Well, you know what I mean? Like, I'm being, I'm going to be honest.
I'm going to say the things. Natalie: There was a man who
Ok, Ok...

(25:45):
but I was like, okay, but for me,it's like I want to create space
where it's like,
I get to know your body and get to knowyou and I want you to know me sexually.
But like sometimes these rigid labels,
which are really transactional,they're really for transactional intimacy.
But I can just get this what I want,which is fine.
So but I loath...
There's a place for that. Yolo
how they're being connected to gender.And like all these assumptions about you,

(26:06):
like it's like alsoyou like to use your penis in sex.
That means you are blah, blah, blah,which often aligns with dominant hetero
centric you a masculine personand the other way and vice versa.
Right?
And they're like all the ways in whichthat because I think about the ways in
which when I was like really havingmore receptive intimacy, the ways in which
it was so deeply alignedwith like deeply misogynistic

(26:27):
thinking that black women were all adhering to
It was just like, it was like the samenarratives I would get like about shame.
Like, okay, like if I have like, you know,if you want why you let them run up in you?
Lke, you know?I mean, like all this stuff.
It was like, wait a second.
Like, what if I, like, can’t I like, sex, right?
Can I enjoy sex?Can I be an agent in sex?
You know what I mean? No, no voice,No voice.
Just doing what?Just give the quote give them a way...

(26:49):
Give away something to someone. Right.
As opposed to like, well,I'm getting something too, that I want.
Right?
Even on that framework,it's just like it's so deeply
not about building connectionand building trust,
because I think when you build connectionand trust, intimacy,
you've got questions that go beyondthose labels and those layers.
Way beyond that.
You got lot of the thought to go there.
But I think there's a lot of fearand anxiety around that, like I said,

(27:11):
because I think a lot of black menand black women,
the self esteem is built aroundthe idea of how I am is sex.
I got, I got I can throw it down.
And if you and if you question it, theneverything else falls apart around it.
But I also think in hetero relationships,I think that for women,
I think the same thing is true.
We need to be pretty and open towhatever you want to do.

(27:32):
Otherwise we get traded in for the newest model
and you know I'm bi,so I have the experience of,
of having experiences with both and,you know, with men and women.
And, you know, I really resonatewith this idea of like that sex
with women is totally different and like,it is a whole experience.
It...for me it is a whole experience.

(27:53):
It is loving.
And it's not just about specific body parts.
It's about the whole human.
And I think that there's something to mereally delicious
about the tendernessand the expansiveness of that
that I wish more straightmen would like be open to having
because there's something you're missingwhen you're just “P in the V! P in the V!”

(28:15):
Yeah. Oh, we're just like,in the mirror, like, doing thing.
It's like, I don't know, bro.
Like,I just feel like I want more for you.
I want more for you.
It's like a goal basedand a performance based sex.
When the goal of the sex is to performand like be “Grrr” for something as opposed
to be present, be connected, be intimate,be listening, listen to your body.
Listen to each other's bodies. Right.

(28:37):
And I think that that's not the normfor what we
because I mean, think about a music welisten to every day
It's all about like dominationor the performance of domination,
which I want to nameis different from domination, Right? Yeah.
I think there's I think we often getconfused in our culture.
We think that like,oh, like domination is rape.
The performance of domination.
If I perform an act with youin the act of performing this domination,

(28:58):
that's different.
That's a performance.That is a consent based, that is acting.
Yeah.
And I think that like a lot ofn...runnin’ around here thinking like,
Oh, no, no, no, no, no.
There's a difference. Natalie: You're acting.
We're acting and I'm acting for youto make you feel a certain kind of love.
Some folks rape people, but also
Some rape people, yes.
There's also, like acting, right?
You know?
and I think making those distinctionsis something
we don't see happen in the cultureand in conversation.

(29:20):
Like even myself, like,you know, as a survivor, you know,
I think about when I told people,when I told other black gay men or black
gay men about being sexually assaulted,it was kind of shrugged off.
I'm like and I remember being so
the culture, there'sthis kind of underlying thing with gay men

(29:42):
in particular where it's like,all men want sex, so you can't be raped.
And you can see it plays outin all different kind of ways.
Things I hear gay men say.
I'm like, wait a second, what?
You know?
And so when you say that, like, oh,
like even like going to clubs in spaceslike, I like as a shorter person,
I've had that experience in the pastwhen like, you know, men
roll up on you and want to be aggressivewith you and...

(30:03):
Like, what the fuck is happening right now?
Like roll up and you're like,“Yo, you are too close”
What's happening?
Too much is going on and ain’t nobody said they wanted any of this.
But those act, those acts
and those things are seen as like,desirable people to find that attractive
you ‘posed to find that like you ’posedto want that. you feel chosen.
You feel chosen.
You feel chosen. And once again, like, Oh,you chose me.
You know.
Of all the people in this club,I'm the one that you want to roll up on.

(30:26):
You chose me over the sockyou had under your bed last night.
let's keep it 100, like,you know what I mean?
Like, you know, like this.
This way, this culture of, like, it'sjust a culture of disconnection.
Yeah.
It's not a culture of intimacy.And it's the desire for connection.
Yes, Yes. Without the bravery.

Yolo (30:43):
Oooh, come on now
To do the work to be connected.
And that is what is so unappealing to me,because I'm like,
if we doing this human shit, let's do it.
Yeah. What's all the stuff?
Let's bump up against each other.
You know I think that like having datedso many people, I mean, and like,
So many people,so many people
Oh, Lord Jesus. I've dated...actually I have not dated...

(31:04):
I have not dated that many.
I feel like the number,there’s numbers
but I actually feel like I don't...actuallyI say that I've dated people,
but I feel like one thingI'm not very good at dating
because I tend to be likeand I think we have this in common.
I could spend 10 seconds with youand I'm like, Nope.
And like, and like, I also I don't need tolike, I'm not that person that I admire,
people who, like,I want an exploration with someone.
And, you know, I used to be that here.
I'm like,I got to be in it for the story, right?

(31:25):
Number one.
And number two, I used to be like, Well,maybe I'll have time.
And what I realized about thatmaybe is it's bullshit, no bullshit.
And number two,it doesn't ultimately serve me
if I'm compromising from the jump
at the door of
meeting you, I'm going, Well,maybe I didn't like this thing,

(31:46):
but maybe if this and and it's like,all this, that, that, that.
And now I don't beat myselfout of what I actually want.
What I actually feel. Right?
Because what do I feelwhen I'm in your presence?
Oh, what do I feel when I'm around you?
Do I feel integrity, Do I feel connected?
Do I feel alignment?
Do I feel nourished and supported?
And honestly, that's likeit’s not goin to be the same way all the time.
But

(32:06):
if I don't feel some dimension of that,why am I engaging you so like one thing?
I mean, one of my friends critiqued meabout it's like you don't do just random dates.
I'm like, one at one.
I also struggle with this with like,gay men in particular, is like my standard
of human engagement is so highfor most gay male cultures or something
because I feel like you're just like, “Hi,are you a person?”
“I would like to talk to youand it's know you.”
They're like, “Oh,you must be in love with me.” No, no, no.
That's just a different standardthan what you all

(32:28):
Because you all don't treat each otherlike human beings.
You just like sacks of meat,
and then what happens is somebody comes inis is kind to you as a human being.
You think I'm in love with you?
I'm like, actually, listen, that that's just like.Natalie: .I just said Hello.
I just said hello.I said, How you feeling?
I expressed interest in youas a human living being
and the culture of pain,I think as so many queer
communities is so deep, so much trauma,so much sadness, so much depression

(32:52):
that is masked as fabulousas masked as “mean girl-ness”
And it's like hiding all this,all this stuff
that shows up and how the sexand the intimacy doesn't show up.
Craving the intimacy.
And so you become big and boldand beautiful
to attract something that feels like something.
But it makes me think about somethingI really made a choice in my life

(33:14):
a long time ago. I was like,I used to be so attracted to the image,
the image of like,you know, the Instagram, the Instagram,
Facebook post and but I had the InstagramFacebook post and it felt like hell.
And then I started being like,Oh, I want to have a relationship
that feels good, that feels good, like,I don't care how it looks to you.
I don't care if it doesn't

(33:35):
look like it could be on the cover of Ebonyand Jet magazine.
I don't care because it feels good to me.
I mean, I also do want it to be like,okay, look, okay.
I mean, it can be cute,but I'm saying like, not recognizable.
It might not be recognizable to you
and the way in which you understanddynamics of relationships,
but I want to feel good because I've liveda hell of trying to pretzel myself
into the image of some manor whoever else wants me to be.

(33:55):
Yeah. Been there.
Glad to not be there anymore.Yolo: I'm into that.
Glad to not be there anymore.
(music plays)
I'm curious, as we close out,
What's your take away?
What's the mantra?
Affirmation that you are remindedof that you are calling for

(34:17):
as it relates to your sexual wellness,to relationships, to love?
Oh, such a good question.
What am I calling for?
I think for myself, I feel grateful to saythat I'm in a part of my journey
where I'm able to engage intimacyand having intimacy
that feels more connectedand true to me than ever

(34:38):
because I feel like if one of the biggestI'm not a, I'm not, the biggest lie
that I've told the people I have dated,have been romantic with and I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
Has been mostly around the intimacy andthe level of enjoyment actually had of it.
Because I think for a long timeI lied to people please
Because like, I didn't
think that I'd have the courage to saythis is what I want and what I enjoy.

(34:58):
I did feel like I was worthy of even havingwhat I want.
I feel very pushed and molded.
This is what yougon’ like and just endure it.
And so I think that
affirmation for me is that like, you know,I can have the pleasure that I desire,
I can have a connection that I desire.
I would rather have a quantity, qualityover quantity.

(35:21):
I would have one quality connectionand have 15 terrible
dismissive connectionNatalie: Or just shallow.
Shallow, right?
And so for me, it's affirming.I can have a place that I desire.
I can feel nourished in my sexand my sex sexual intimacy.
I can perform consensually,I can engage in all these different ways,

(35:41):
and I can do that with integrity.
And that will conversationwith communication that's possible
for my sexuality.

Natalie (35:48):
I love that.
I, I think for me
I am holding a vision
for a love that is rich,
that is kind and that is on purpose,
that is about choosing each other
and being aligned because we want to be,

(36:10):
not because we just don't have shit elsegoing on.
Right?
And that,that is the vision I'm holding for myself
and wish that for everybodyreally is a love
that feels good for real
in the best and worst of days,
that we have a love that holdsus, that sees us fully.

Yolo (36:30):
I love that. I love that.
That's the affirmation.
That's the call.
Like, you know, it's aI think they like to our people
who are watching or listening,I hope that like, you know,
hearing our stories, which are, you know,our realities are truths
helping you to reflect upon your own truthand call into yourself to say
you can have a different kind of intimacythat feels good for you.

(36:52):
You can expand the intimacy thatyou already have that feels good to you.
I want to invite you
to reimagine and think,How could my body feel differently?
How can I find more joy, more pleasure,more orgasm, whatever that is you need
or you want in a way that is loving,in a way that is in integrity.
I want to invite all of all the folkswho are less to remix,

(37:12):
to remix and reimagine sexualityand sex for yourself
and think about how you can do that
and a healing justice frameand in a loving frame.
I love that.
Well, we're excited for the journeywe're all on and right.
We love you. We're rooting for you.
Hot girl summer! I'm sorry.Natalie: It's a mild girl summer over here.
But we'll see you next time.

(37:34):
(music plays)
Hey, what's up, everyone?
This is Yolo, and I'm back
with another practicethat you can use on your healing journey.
Today I want to do something a little simplethat you can carry with you
wherever you are,and it is a practice called box breathing.
So to frame this practice,imagine a square

(37:58):
and on each side of that squareis the number four, right?
What we will do,we will inhale deeply for 4 seconds,
then hold for 4 seconds,
then exhale for 4 seconds,and then repeat.
This is a simple practiceand our breath is the most powerful tools
that we have to help ourselvesregulate and manage our nervous systems.

(38:20):
Right.
And so I want to invite you to practiceand try this with me, okay?
Now, a couple of tips here.
When you inhale,
I want to invite you to inhalethrough your nose and feel your belly.
And then when you exhale, wantto invite you to sell through your mouth
and make as much noise as you need,as you push out that air
or maybe even metaphoricallyand think we need to release.

(38:42):
Okay? So want to try it together?
Simple practice, right?
So first thing we'll do,we'll start with inhale.
I will count one, two, three, four and I willinstruct you and we'll go from there.
All right.
So when you're ready, wherever you are,want to start with a deep breath.
Inhale into our nose for one,

(39:04):
two, three, four.
Holding.
two, three, four.
Exhaling.
two, three, four,
Put a pause right there.
Give yourself a moment to feel how that felt.

(39:26):
Sometimes when we’re new to breath work,we can feel a little different.
So I'm going to invite you to be presentwith that and want to do it one last time.
Right.
Once again,reminding you that when you inhale what
and how deep through our nose,feeling our belly
and then we want to exhalethrough our mouth, making as much noise
as we would like.
All right?
So now we'll get started again.

(39:48):
Inhale through your nose.
One, two, three, four.
Hold your breath
two, three, four.
Exhale.
Two, three, four.
Simple, sweet.

(40:09):
Don't cost you nothing.
You can cash app me.
No, but it doesn't cost youanything to practice with your breath.
So think about that in your momentswhen you may be experiencing stress.
Think about thatjust in your everyday life.
How can I take a moment to just breathe?
Because often times
we’re not present in our bodiesand our breath helps us get back here
when we're disconnected. Right?
So try it, check it out.

(40:29):
And if it doesn't work for you,that's good.
There's lots of other practicing toolsyou can try as well.
I’m Yolo and thank you again for joining me.