August 3, 2025 • 24 mins
This week on Game Time, hosts Vinayakk Mohanarangan and Amit Kamath are joined by Mayank Chaudhary to discuss a possible power shift in women’s chess. For decades, the game has been dominated by Chinese players — but with two Indian women recently battling it out for the World Cup title, while two Chinese players competed for third place, signs are emerging that a new Indian era could be on the horizon. Tune in for insights on what this moment means for Indian chess and how the landscape of the women’s game is evolving.
Produced by Niharika Nanda and Shashank Bhargava
Edited by Suresh Pawar
Produced by Niharika Nanda and Shashank Bhargava
Edited by Suresh Pawar
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hello, everyone, Welcome to another week of Game Time Express
podcast where we discuss the big events in the world
of sport. And for this episode, this is me Vinaik
being joined by Amit and Mayank. And if you guys
have been following the Indian Express sports coverage, by just
listening to those two names, you'd know that we are
going to be speaking about chess.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Amit of course is our main chess.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Guy so to speak, and Mayank has recently joined our
team and they put up some wonderful stories across the
Free Day World Cup, that Women's World Cup that got
over last week with India's Diva deshmuk and Koneu Humpy
fighting it out in an all India final and the
we are the young gun coming out on top, winning
not just the title but also earning the Grandmaster title
(00:48):
to go along with that. So that's going to be
our focus this week. So let's just get straight into it.
Amit to bring you in first. We usually joke when
we do the chess episodes come at ther so we'll
just give you toss, throw the floor to you and
you take it over. But today you have someone to
share the load with. You just tell us First of all,
what is the significance of firstly an Oliday final and
(01:09):
for a youngster like DVR to do what she did
in Georgia.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Right, So, I mean, obviously, if you want to look
at the how much of a big deal this is,
you just look at the fact that thirteen months ago,
sometime in June last year, Devia was playing and winning
the World Junior Championship in the girls category. Thirteen months
hence she has already led the Indian woman's chess team
to a Chess Olympia at gold medal. It's one of
(01:34):
the most prestigious or actually the most prestigious team evendor
is for countries. And since then she's gone on to
win the World Cup, which I mean, I keep saying
this that it's the most treacherous tournament to win. I mean,
the World Championship is the most prestigious, but the World
Cup is a completely different beast because you play six
to seven rounds, depending on whether you get to buy
(01:56):
in the first round or not. Everything is a two
game head to head knockout matches. If those two games
don't decide, then you go into tibreks things like that.
So it is very difficult for anybody to compete for Humpy.
Her age is like she's thirty eight, so to be
at the elite peak for twenty four straight days is
a bit of an ask. But for Diva to have
(02:19):
been at that peak when she had the draw that
she did, like you know, after two rounds. The third
round that she played in a sense technically the fourth
round was against world number six from China, Zoo Junor,
who is tipped to be one of the best very soon.
Then she had Hurrica Ronavali, one of the stars of
Indian chess for a while. Next round she runs into Tanzongie,
(02:41):
who's been one of the only seventeen women's world champions
in history. And after that in the final she runs
into the og Indian chess prodigy I guess among women,
Kuneru Umpy. So for her it was particularly tricky getting
all the way to final and then winning it. For Humpy,
there were different of challenges, but she still made it
(03:01):
to the final and nothing kind of captured this contrast
as to having this sight of Humpy playing de Va
in the final and right next to them there was
another game going on which was two Chinese players tan
Zongi and leading j both of them playing battling for
the third place, right, and both of them had been
defeated by Deva and Humpy, So nothing quite caught that
(03:25):
moment like this, Just for a little bit of context,
the Chinese are the undisputed champion of women's chess at
the moment. Like just today, the ratings list of chess
was announced and if you look at that, the top
five are all women or all women from China, and
the sixth person is obviously Humpy, and Diva is somewhere
in fifteenth. When this tournament started, Diva was I think
(03:46):
the fifteenth best rated player in the field of one
hundred and seven players.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
So she started from there.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
She started from being just an im and I guess
the rest is history.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Yeah, that's as good a summary as we could have.
Surprise from amath mine to bring you in. So tell
us a little bit about Diva for people who are
mute following chess, women's chess, especially, we.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Were discussing this during the tournament.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
She seemed like someone who I don't know if where's
the heart on sleeve is the right expression for chess anyway.
It's not like people are going around banking tables all
the time. It happened only once as far as I know, Sochrice. Yeah,
so it's now a contagious disease. Now everybody's going around
banking tables and chess.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Right.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
People have figured out that that's one way to make
it to the headlines in the chess world. But I mean,
technically speaking, you don't really see people express their emotions
too much during the game. But if we seem like
someone who you could like just by the look on
her face, you could kind of figure out where she
was in a game. Is that like something that she's
always been, Like how she off the board? Just a
little bit about via the player.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
Yeah, hi guys, hi, Hi, thank you for having me
to answer your question.
Speaker 5 (04:53):
I mean, Devia has always been a bubbly kid, a
fun loving you know, like, I don't know how did
she end up becoming a chess player because it's very
serious sport in that way, and her personality obviously does
not suit her game style. She's very very aggressive on
the board, and her personality off the board is totally
opposite to that. She is the one who initiates the
(05:13):
conversation and she's the one who's the lively character on
and off the board. So yeah, it's a big deal
for her to you know, whin this tournament and to
understand what this achievement means for her, we need to
sort of understand the magnitude of this achievement. I mean
to only becoming the fourth female Indian GM and only
the forty fourth female in the world, Like we only
(05:34):
have forty four female Grandmasters in the world, So that
sort of achievement is you know, really big and for
a nineteen year old to do so that's really commendable.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
And just for those were not aware, I mean, she
actually earned her first NORM during the course of the tournament,
and she won the Grandmaster title because she ended up
winning the World Cup. I think that's part of the regulations,
which I think Mike had done a really nice explainer
on it just before the final as well. So I mean,
it wasn't like she was running for the grand Master
title when she came to Georgia. I'd assume it just
(06:05):
so happened that she won the title, and you know,
in one go she became the World Cup winner plus
the Grand Master that's kind of like, yeah, I mean
it's massive, as these guys have put it just in
terms of Chinese domination, the reigning world champions from China.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Ami, where do you see India right now?
Speaker 1 (06:20):
I mean that's like the proper challengers for China's domination.
I mean it's probably not going to break anytime soon,
as you mentioned, like five in the top five right now,
but India have emerged as the biggest challenges, especially considering
what happened at the Olympiad and at the World Cup.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
You know, like it's really interesting because sometime between that
final note between on the day of the tie break, right,
So the Fieda broadcast took a break from the matches
because the players were on a break sometime between the
i think game one and game two of the tie breaks,
and that is when Fieda decided to run an interview
with the tan Zongi, who is a former world champion
(06:54):
who Diva had defeated in the semi finals, right, and
she ended up coming third, And when Tani was speaking,
she said, you know, at some point, you know that
the pressure of playing in this competition is really intimidating,
and she was like, I wouldn't mind if lating. She
actually became She won the third place and I'm okay
with that and things like that. On the other hand,
you looked at the two Indians, and I mean, usually
(07:17):
you have that mindset, right, if you are two compatriots,
you would at least smile at each other, acknowledge each
other some sort of you know, familiarity, Kaya you will give. Right,
you look at Deva and Humpy and you will see
that absolute edge that they tried to maintain through everything
that they did. Diva would turn up first for games.
She would sit there by herself, staring away. Humpy would
(07:39):
come but would not sit on the board. She would
walk around in the playing hall, and then when she
got to the board she would like start meditating, no
eye contact at all. The most revealing thing was their
handshakes were literally like finger touches, like it would feel
like as if those you go into a boxing arena
and those boxers when they touch gloves because they know
there is a big fight coming. So it was that
sort of a tension filled thing between them. On the
(08:02):
other hand, I've never seen any Chinese competitor in any
sport talk about pressure and how they are struggling to
cope with pressure and they would rather the other person
win and things like that, you know, so that kind
of tells a little bit about maybe the changing mindset
in a sense. Obviously one player is too little sample space,
but then Tanzongi is somebody who's right now world number four,
(08:24):
so it's not a very indicative thing. The rest of
the five Chinese players, we talk about one of them,
the world number one, who you find is semi retired.
She barely ever plays in one or two tournaments a year,
and that's it. She's now weird into academics. You have
juwe June, who's the world champion. But then the thing
about the candidates that is coming up for which and
(08:46):
Humphy are both qualified, is that that gives them a
shot to challenge Juenguine in the World Championship next year.
And we are won this event. Nobody was expecting it, right,
Nobody was expecting Gouks to win.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
The candidates.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
Then probably a lot of people may not have thought
that you could actually win, even though Ding was looking
very vulnerable. Right, So it's an Indian prodigies world and
we are all just living in it. So, I mean,
I know that this Chinese wall seems impenetrable, great and
all of that, but little little cracks have started to
appear in a sense.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Perfect It's a nice segue into what I was going
to ask next, Mike. Just apart from the also saw
a couple of other impressive performances. I think Harrikatt a
good run. We had four out of the eight quarter
finalists for Indians, and even Wantika had a big win
earlier in the tournament. So just in terms of what
it means for women's chests in India, apart from challenging
the Chinese, I mean, that's obviously the end goal, I guess,
(09:41):
you know, to have an Indian World champion or a
World Championship challenger by winning the candidates. All that is
eventually going to happen at some point. But right now,
from the pool of players that we've seen, especially at
the World Cup, what does it mean for Indian women's
chess just in terms of the depth that is available.
Speaker 5 (09:56):
Yeah, so based on the performances we have had in
the past, as in the silver medal in the Asian
Games and then a gold medal at Budapest Chess Olympaired.
So those sort of performances do indicate that, you know,
Indian womens are here to stay.
Speaker 4 (10:09):
For a long run.
Speaker 5 (10:10):
And as Amid has you know, really nicely put it
that there are cracks which have been appearing in the
Chinese setup. So that way we have a pool of
players like Vaishali is there one Hurricane and Humpy have
been there for ages.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
Now, I mean for the.
Speaker 5 (10:24):
Last two decades we have had two top players running
for the medals and boardium finishes. But now with the
we are the Taiakov They we are one Thicke and
vy Shali. They were actually the one who pushed India
for the gold medal at Budapest. So Humpy, if you remember,
was not the part of Olympied last year. She chose
not to play that event. Even though without our top player,
(10:45):
without the Indian number one, India eventually ended up winning
the gold medal and that was the first time where
both open and women team ended up winning the top
prize at the you know, one of the most.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
Toughest team event in chess.
Speaker 5 (10:58):
So yeah, that way we are sorted for let's say
next two to three years. We are still looking for
our first woman world champion from India. But what Ramesh
told me was also very interesting to uh, you know,
to understand. He said that it's very important for us
to have someone like Devia, a success story of Dewa
because like that is not there as far as the
police concern we have where surely we have one Tika,
(11:21):
we have Devia, but apart from these three, there is
still no one yet who has made it to the
elite of elite. So in that way, we still need,
you know, young girls who takes up the sport seriously
and professionally. And what Devia had done, let's say seven
to eight years back, that was the striking thing which
Ramesh told me that that was different to the via
(11:42):
if he had to compare that with other players. Because
back in twenty seventeen, when the was only twelve and
she had just won the Cadet Championship, that was the
time when Ramish had said that had Dewa have good sponsorships,
she can actually challenge for the world championship, and that
is something, you know, that's a very big statement back
then when she was just eleven. So to predict that
(12:03):
as a trainer, it takes massive courage to say that,
and he was not actually speaking.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Way ahead of his years.
Speaker 5 (12:11):
It eventually is coming through over the years because she's
already what she's nineteen and one thing, he has mentioned
that at this age she has the potential to become
one of the best in the world. He predicts that
Devia can actually reach twenty six hundred fifty ELO rating,
which is the strongest as far as the woman players
her concerned. To give the context, like the as far
as the ELO ratings are concerned, Humpy has tested twenty
(12:33):
six hundred twenty three, so two six two three was
her peak.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
So to judge based.
Speaker 5 (12:38):
On the EL rating, he feels that Devia can actually
become one of the strongest Indian player and he also
believed that like Goukesh, she also has a really good
chance at winning the World Championship in her very first
attempt at candidates. He says that even if she build
on her strength by let's say one hundred more ELO points,
she can have a really good shot and she is
(12:58):
favorite for Ramesh.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
If she reaches twenty six hundred.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
That's a very exciting thing to look forward to as
well in the coming year. Just how I wanted to
casually throw in a flex here since Mike mentioned twenty
seventeen and Ramesh, who is coach arby Rameg part of
Drug's team works in Chennai.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Chess Gurukul.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
I had actually gone there in twenty seventeen for a
story with my previous organization, and so this small apartment
where Ramesh was training them under the apartment, I wasn't
entirely sure if this was a place, and I was
looking around trying to find if there's a boat saying
chess Gurukul or something. Then I look around and there's
a small kid entering the building. He had a little
cell phone in his hand, like one of those really
(13:38):
old like the Nokia Double and Double zero. I think,
I guess just to communicate with his parents or something,
and just he called and said yeah, up a reach
and then he started walking upstairs. And I asked like,
is this says Gurukul, and yeah, come come, I'm going there.
Only that was actually little Prug who was I think
what this was eight years back with barely eleven or twelve,
and Viva was also there day she was I think
(14:01):
I remember speaking to her mother that day. Namata, who's
actually been captured on camera quite a bit during this
World Cup. And Nambata used to say like they traveled
once a month to Chennai from Knackpore for training, and
every time they came, Diva doesn't want to go back,
like she just wants to stay here. She doesn't want
to go back to Knackpore. They actually got an apartment
arranged close by to where the Chessgurukul was, where I
(14:23):
think helped them arrange that, and they used to stay
there every time they came once a month to train.
So yeah, that happened eight years back. I kind of
remembered that last week when I was following this event.
So yeah, casual.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
Flex amit minek this story that you told me. I
think our listeners will be very interested in watching TV
and Prug at that age. So there is a very
fascinating video on YouTube where if you search for this
title that Prugu and div Are play I think chigur
in a chess or something like that. So if you
(14:57):
look at that game, they are both playing against each
other with ten seconds on the clock, both of them,
with every move earning them one one second each. I
think this must be when Devia is around twelve years
and prug is around roughly the same.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
Age or something.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
It's one of the most fascinating things I've seen in
chairs these two kids look like really sweet. Like Prug
is standing up because I think his height was a
little short, so he could not reach the end of
the board, so he needed to stand up. Divi is there,
Divia's father is there in the video, and Prug's mother
is there somewhere in the video also, so really fascinating once,
and I think the YouTube algorithm will keep like pulling
(15:31):
out these videos and throwing them up as the days pass,
because I think the era of DVR is kind of started.
When I could just a small segue before you ask
your next question, I think you spoke about India and China, right,
So I was just looking at, you know, the top
one hundred girls in August twenty twenty five. This is
obviously girls who are under the age of twenty in
(15:53):
that list. In the top twenty five, if you look,
it's obviously dominated.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
By DVA, who's number one.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
But then in the top twenty there are five Indians
as compared to just two Chinese players there. So right
now it might seem like China is the dominant force,
but India is definitely coming up and coming up first.
Speaker 4 (16:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Perfect.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Also that the video thing that you mentioned, I remember
distinctly this. I mean, I don't remember much from that
day of visiting the chessburucule apart from the story I wrote,
but I distinctly remember Plug had this style of folding
his knees on the bench and looking over the board,
like he doesn't sit on the bench with his foot down,
like the feet are up on the bench, and then
(16:34):
he folds them underneath like he's in some yoga position
or something. I distinctly remember that image for some reason.
But yeah, mine, we briefly discussed the big picture there,
where do we go from here?
Speaker 2 (16:44):
And all that.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
The good thing is also the three players that you
mentioned are quite young, right, I mean between the ya
Vaishali and one Thika. So that's one positive thing. So
what do we expect from your conversations? What do we
expect from them next? Like, what would be the natural
progression from here? Since India have two places the candidates already?
So what is it natural progression that you would like
to see from.
Speaker 5 (17:03):
Your own Yeah, so as far as this circle of
the candidates are concerned, because candidates is something which all
the players look forward for, right, So there are eight
places where the winner gets the chance to challenge. The
current world champion in this case, as we've already mentioned,
is Joe Engine.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
So we have two spots.
Speaker 5 (17:21):
We already had two spots last time where we're sually qualified.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
Along with Humpy, but this time we have Humpy and.
Speaker 5 (17:29):
They were but there are a few more spots left
through FIDE circuit points and there is one more spot.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
Reserve for like the average of all the.
Speaker 5 (17:36):
Performance that like I won't go into details and all
those things, but there is still a good possibility that
one more Indian might qualify for the candidates. But without
you know, heading too much into the future, but speaking
purely on what we have right now, I see three
really good solid players in the via v, Shally and Vantica.
All three are got from nineteen to twenty twenty to
(17:58):
twenty two, so they have a lot of age where
them and they're becoming like stronger every game they're playing.
Speaker 4 (18:03):
Right, So is yet to become a GM among.
Speaker 5 (18:07):
These three, And like as they were it said that
GM title is something which will eventually come. So for
her to become a GM, like it took one of
the massive wood from her because like she was not
actually looking to get that title because it's not something
which you gain from one event. So just to compare,
like i a start from the via first and then
I'll move on to other players, just to compare, you know,
(18:28):
the wess qualities without demeaning her win like from the
male players, from her counterparts from among the Indian prodigies.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
I mean her attitude.
Speaker 5 (18:36):
Like one of the things which we have noticed that
in almost all the equal positions, even though in fear
of the position where she was not having the edge
on the board, she never used to take the draw
off or bait from Tanzongi, bait from Zujin, her way
from Hurrica, bit from Humpty. So that quality, if you
remember during the twenty four World Championship, Goukeish was also
(18:56):
like like, okay, all the Indian players they have that
never gave up attitude, but not to take a draw
from a losing position from an equal position also takes
a lot of gut, right, So in that way, like
she has that belief on her that she has been
doing that for ages that you know, never to take
a draw in an equal position, always grind for the when,
always grind to fight, and all those things are there.
(19:17):
I mean her ultra aggressive approach which we have already discussed,
is something which is very similar to Nihal serin. If
I have to you know, just compare. I mean, if
I also have to compare that, I can compare that
with Humpy. Humpy is also really sharp in terms of
you know, rapid or blitz, shorter time format games. So
those are the things which makes they were really good
(19:38):
at what she does for Vitually, she is a very
momentum friendly player. I mean, if she's winning few rounds,
you will see that she'll end up winning more and
more rounds. This has been her like weakness and strength
at the same time. I mean, if you remember the
candidates last time, the first half was terrible for her
and the second half was really good that she eventually
(19:59):
finished joints A alongside Humpy and third like based on
the tie break points she had. So that way, she
need to just look at her time skill. Time management
is something which has bothered both vasually and one.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
They are both. Yeah, apart from like these three players.
Speaker 5 (20:15):
We can expect them to you know, come into top
ten really soon. Deva has been around, you know, world
number eighteen seventeen, she has touched fifteen. She has already
crossed twenty fifteen during the Budapest Olympire. So world ranking
are not something which they look forward for us to
judge on the metrics or the rise of the Indian women.
I really feel that these three will make into world
(20:37):
top ten really soon.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Lovely think we'll start wrapping up on a final thoughts.
You've been speaking to a lot of people in the
Indian chess community. I know, the men's chess, we've discussed
a lot about, you know, the wide variety of talent
that we've had, the burst of GMS that we keep seeing.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Women's chess.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
On the other end, like you guys have mentioned, which
is the fourth Grandmaster from India, that boom is yet
to happen.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Do you see that happening in the new future?
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Just in terms of the widening of the pool, how
is your outlook on the future for Indian women's test
Just to kind of concluding.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Remark, Yeah, so if you look at this World Cup final, right,
it was one of the most inspirational things to have
happened to women's chess in India because on the one hand,
you have a nineteen year old going on and winning,
and on the other hand, you have a thirty eight
year old whose career is kind of finding a second
wind in a sense, and she's there in the final
after having achieved whatever there is to achieve, taking like
(21:29):
a semi break of sorts because she gave birth to
a daughter. She's come back and she's risen back to
the top. Right, So that kind of sends a message
to the rest of the girls right now that a
you don't have to be too young all too old
to be successful in this sport. There is way too
much longevity. It's not as if it's just a young
person's port. And if you are twenty and you've not
(21:51):
become a grandmaster, that means your best days are behind
you and you have to move on.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
Right.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
So, in Diviya's Rise, there is plenty of takeaways for
India woman. In Humpy's Resurgence, there is again way too
many takeaways for everybody.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Perfect As a fellow thirty something setting, ahmait and I
will vouch for the Humpy bit. It is inspirational to
see what she does as a couple of eighty seven bonds.
I think, yeah, nice to see that she still got it.
I mean, as much as we've spoken about Ive, you
are great achievement by Humpy as well that I found
that symmetry interesting that a nineteen year old took on
a thirty eight year old twice a age in the final.
(22:26):
Just another you know the thing that Amit keeps talking
about writing about the Indian earthquake, Just earthquake, just another
tremor in recent times, so many achievements. We've discussed quite
a few of those.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
This is this you reminding me that I should find
other metaphors for advent, just because I've frankly run out
of metaphors. Yea earthquake is something that Gary kashp for outside.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
I'm sticking with it.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
When a metaphor works, you just, I mean, there's no
reason to change it. But yeah, I mean, of course
that's where it is, right, I think. I mean, in fact,
props to Amu. I'm sure like you guys follow our
chess coverage and all that, but I think the column
on the Indian women's chest, this whole thing women's just
coming together having a sort of at a good time,
came much before the finals and even semi finals. I
(23:08):
think it's just around the round of sixteen that you
had already called it saying great to see these group
of players doing well, so yeah, keep following U chess coverage.
Thanks a lot for your time, Ahmaed and Mike, I
hope you enjoyed your debut as the diva of this podcast.
To the Umpi of me and Ahmad the young one,
thanks for your insights. Hope you guys enjoyed listening to it.
(23:28):
We'll be back soon with another episode and hopefully we'll
have me heat us Auta back as well for that one.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Thanks a lot for listening.
Speaker 6 (23:35):
You were listening to Express Sports by the Indian Express.
This week's show was edited and mixed by Sosh Pawar
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(23:58):
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Speaker 4 (24:00):
Eight
Hello, everyone, Welcome to another week of Game Time Express
podcast where we discuss the big events in the world
of sport. And for this episode, this is me Vinaik
being joined by Amit and Mayank. And if you guys
have been following the Indian Express sports coverage, by just
listening to those two names, you'd know that we are
going to be speaking about chess.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Amit of course is our main chess.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Guy so to speak, and Mayank has recently joined our
team and they put up some wonderful stories across the
Free Day World Cup, that Women's World Cup that got
over last week with India's Diva deshmuk and Koneu Humpy
fighting it out in an all India final and the
we are the young gun coming out on top, winning
not just the title but also earning the Grandmaster title
(00:48):
to go along with that. So that's going to be
our focus this week. So let's just get straight into it.
Amit to bring you in first. We usually joke when
we do the chess episodes come at ther so we'll
just give you toss, throw the floor to you and
you take it over. But today you have someone to
share the load with. You just tell us First of all,
what is the significance of firstly an Oliday final and
(01:09):
for a youngster like DVR to do what she did
in Georgia.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Right, So, I mean, obviously, if you want to look
at the how much of a big deal this is,
you just look at the fact that thirteen months ago,
sometime in June last year, Devia was playing and winning
the World Junior Championship in the girls category. Thirteen months
hence she has already led the Indian woman's chess team
to a Chess Olympia at gold medal. It's one of
(01:34):
the most prestigious or actually the most prestigious team evendor
is for countries. And since then she's gone on to
win the World Cup, which I mean, I keep saying
this that it's the most treacherous tournament to win. I mean,
the World Championship is the most prestigious, but the World
Cup is a completely different beast because you play six
to seven rounds, depending on whether you get to buy
(01:56):
in the first round or not. Everything is a two
game head to head knockout matches. If those two games
don't decide, then you go into tibreks things like that.
So it is very difficult for anybody to compete for Humpy.
Her age is like she's thirty eight, so to be
at the elite peak for twenty four straight days is
a bit of an ask. But for Diva to have
(02:19):
been at that peak when she had the draw that
she did, like you know, after two rounds. The third
round that she played in a sense technically the fourth
round was against world number six from China, Zoo Junor,
who is tipped to be one of the best very soon.
Then she had Hurrica Ronavali, one of the stars of
Indian chess for a while. Next round she runs into Tanzongie,
(02:41):
who's been one of the only seventeen women's world champions
in history. And after that in the final she runs
into the og Indian chess prodigy I guess among women,
Kuneru Umpy. So for her it was particularly tricky getting
all the way to final and then winning it. For Humpy,
there were different of challenges, but she still made it
(03:01):
to the final and nothing kind of captured this contrast
as to having this sight of Humpy playing de Va
in the final and right next to them there was
another game going on which was two Chinese players tan
Zongi and leading j both of them playing battling for
the third place, right, and both of them had been
defeated by Deva and Humpy, So nothing quite caught that
(03:25):
moment like this, Just for a little bit of context,
the Chinese are the undisputed champion of women's chess at
the moment. Like just today, the ratings list of chess
was announced and if you look at that, the top
five are all women or all women from China, and
the sixth person is obviously Humpy, and Diva is somewhere
in fifteenth. When this tournament started, Diva was I think
(03:46):
the fifteenth best rated player in the field of one
hundred and seven players.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
So she started from there.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
She started from being just an im and I guess
the rest is history.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Yeah, that's as good a summary as we could have.
Surprise from amath mine to bring you in. So tell
us a little bit about Diva for people who are
mute following chess, women's chess, especially, we.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Were discussing this during the tournament.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
She seemed like someone who I don't know if where's
the heart on sleeve is the right expression for chess anyway.
It's not like people are going around banking tables all
the time. It happened only once as far as I know, Sochrice. Yeah,
so it's now a contagious disease. Now everybody's going around
banking tables and chess.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Right.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
People have figured out that that's one way to make
it to the headlines in the chess world. But I mean,
technically speaking, you don't really see people express their emotions
too much during the game. But if we seem like
someone who you could like just by the look on
her face, you could kind of figure out where she
was in a game. Is that like something that she's
always been, Like how she off the board? Just a
little bit about via the player.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
Yeah, hi guys, hi, Hi, thank you for having me
to answer your question.
Speaker 5 (04:53):
I mean, Devia has always been a bubbly kid, a
fun loving you know, like, I don't know how did
she end up becoming a chess player because it's very
serious sport in that way, and her personality obviously does
not suit her game style. She's very very aggressive on
the board, and her personality off the board is totally
opposite to that. She is the one who initiates the
(05:13):
conversation and she's the one who's the lively character on
and off the board. So yeah, it's a big deal
for her to you know, whin this tournament and to
understand what this achievement means for her, we need to
sort of understand the magnitude of this achievement. I mean
to only becoming the fourth female Indian GM and only
the forty fourth female in the world, Like we only
(05:34):
have forty four female Grandmasters in the world, So that
sort of achievement is you know, really big and for
a nineteen year old to do so that's really commendable.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
And just for those were not aware, I mean, she
actually earned her first NORM during the course of the tournament,
and she won the Grandmaster title because she ended up
winning the World Cup. I think that's part of the regulations,
which I think Mike had done a really nice explainer
on it just before the final as well. So I mean,
it wasn't like she was running for the grand Master
title when she came to Georgia. I'd assume it just
(06:05):
so happened that she won the title, and you know,
in one go she became the World Cup winner plus
the Grand Master that's kind of like, yeah, I mean
it's massive, as these guys have put it just in
terms of Chinese domination, the reigning world champions from China.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Ami, where do you see India right now?
Speaker 1 (06:20):
I mean that's like the proper challengers for China's domination.
I mean it's probably not going to break anytime soon,
as you mentioned, like five in the top five right now,
but India have emerged as the biggest challenges, especially considering
what happened at the Olympiad and at the World Cup.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
You know, like it's really interesting because sometime between that
final note between on the day of the tie break, right,
So the Fieda broadcast took a break from the matches
because the players were on a break sometime between the
i think game one and game two of the tie breaks,
and that is when Fieda decided to run an interview
with the tan Zongi, who is a former world champion
(06:54):
who Diva had defeated in the semi finals, right, and
she ended up coming third, And when Tani was speaking,
she said, you know, at some point, you know that
the pressure of playing in this competition is really intimidating,
and she was like, I wouldn't mind if lating. She
actually became She won the third place and I'm okay
with that and things like that. On the other hand,
you looked at the two Indians, and I mean, usually
(07:17):
you have that mindset, right, if you are two compatriots,
you would at least smile at each other, acknowledge each
other some sort of you know, familiarity, Kaya you will give. Right,
you look at Deva and Humpy and you will see
that absolute edge that they tried to maintain through everything
that they did. Diva would turn up first for games.
She would sit there by herself, staring away. Humpy would
(07:39):
come but would not sit on the board. She would
walk around in the playing hall, and then when she
got to the board she would like start meditating, no
eye contact at all. The most revealing thing was their
handshakes were literally like finger touches, like it would feel
like as if those you go into a boxing arena
and those boxers when they touch gloves because they know
there is a big fight coming. So it was that
sort of a tension filled thing between them. On the
(08:02):
other hand, I've never seen any Chinese competitor in any
sport talk about pressure and how they are struggling to
cope with pressure and they would rather the other person
win and things like that, you know, so that kind
of tells a little bit about maybe the changing mindset
in a sense. Obviously one player is too little sample space,
but then Tanzongi is somebody who's right now world number four,
(08:24):
so it's not a very indicative thing. The rest of
the five Chinese players, we talk about one of them,
the world number one, who you find is semi retired.
She barely ever plays in one or two tournaments a year,
and that's it. She's now weird into academics. You have
juwe June, who's the world champion. But then the thing
about the candidates that is coming up for which and
(08:46):
Humphy are both qualified, is that that gives them a
shot to challenge Juenguine in the World Championship next year.
And we are won this event. Nobody was expecting it, right,
Nobody was expecting Gouks to win.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
The candidates.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
Then probably a lot of people may not have thought
that you could actually win, even though Ding was looking
very vulnerable. Right, So it's an Indian prodigies world and
we are all just living in it. So, I mean,
I know that this Chinese wall seems impenetrable, great and
all of that, but little little cracks have started to
appear in a sense.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Perfect It's a nice segue into what I was going
to ask next, Mike. Just apart from the also saw
a couple of other impressive performances. I think Harrikatt a
good run. We had four out of the eight quarter
finalists for Indians, and even Wantika had a big win
earlier in the tournament. So just in terms of what
it means for women's chests in India, apart from challenging
the Chinese, I mean, that's obviously the end goal, I guess,
(09:41):
you know, to have an Indian World champion or a
World Championship challenger by winning the candidates. All that is
eventually going to happen at some point. But right now,
from the pool of players that we've seen, especially at
the World Cup, what does it mean for Indian women's
chess just in terms of the depth that is available.
Speaker 5 (09:56):
Yeah, so based on the performances we have had in
the past, as in the silver medal in the Asian
Games and then a gold medal at Budapest Chess Olympaired.
So those sort of performances do indicate that, you know,
Indian womens are here to stay.
Speaker 4 (10:09):
For a long run.
Speaker 5 (10:10):
And as Amid has you know, really nicely put it
that there are cracks which have been appearing in the
Chinese setup. So that way we have a pool of
players like Vaishali is there one Hurricane and Humpy have
been there for ages.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
Now, I mean for the.
Speaker 5 (10:24):
Last two decades we have had two top players running
for the medals and boardium finishes. But now with the
we are the Taiakov They we are one Thicke and
vy Shali. They were actually the one who pushed India
for the gold medal at Budapest. So Humpy, if you remember,
was not the part of Olympied last year. She chose
not to play that event. Even though without our top player,
(10:45):
without the Indian number one, India eventually ended up winning
the gold medal and that was the first time where
both open and women team ended up winning the top
prize at the you know, one of the most.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
Toughest team event in chess.
Speaker 5 (10:58):
So yeah, that way we are sorted for let's say
next two to three years. We are still looking for
our first woman world champion from India. But what Ramesh
told me was also very interesting to uh, you know,
to understand. He said that it's very important for us
to have someone like Devia, a success story of Dewa
because like that is not there as far as the
police concern we have where surely we have one Tika,
(11:21):
we have Devia, but apart from these three, there is
still no one yet who has made it to the
elite of elite. So in that way, we still need,
you know, young girls who takes up the sport seriously
and professionally. And what Devia had done, let's say seven
to eight years back, that was the striking thing which
Ramesh told me that that was different to the via
(11:42):
if he had to compare that with other players. Because
back in twenty seventeen, when the was only twelve and
she had just won the Cadet Championship, that was the
time when Ramish had said that had Dewa have good sponsorships,
she can actually challenge for the world championship, and that
is something, you know, that's a very big statement back
then when she was just eleven. So to predict that
(12:03):
as a trainer, it takes massive courage to say that,
and he was not actually speaking.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Way ahead of his years.
Speaker 5 (12:11):
It eventually is coming through over the years because she's
already what she's nineteen and one thing, he has mentioned
that at this age she has the potential to become
one of the best in the world. He predicts that
Devia can actually reach twenty six hundred fifty ELO rating,
which is the strongest as far as the woman players
her concerned. To give the context, like the as far
as the ELO ratings are concerned, Humpy has tested twenty
(12:33):
six hundred twenty three, so two six two three was
her peak.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
So to judge based.
Speaker 5 (12:38):
On the EL rating, he feels that Devia can actually
become one of the strongest Indian player and he also
believed that like Goukesh, she also has a really good
chance at winning the World Championship in her very first
attempt at candidates. He says that even if she build
on her strength by let's say one hundred more ELO points,
she can have a really good shot and she is
(12:58):
favorite for Ramesh.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
If she reaches twenty six hundred.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
That's a very exciting thing to look forward to as
well in the coming year. Just how I wanted to
casually throw in a flex here since Mike mentioned twenty
seventeen and Ramesh, who is coach arby Rameg part of
Drug's team works in Chennai.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Chess Gurukul.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
I had actually gone there in twenty seventeen for a
story with my previous organization, and so this small apartment
where Ramesh was training them under the apartment, I wasn't
entirely sure if this was a place, and I was
looking around trying to find if there's a boat saying
chess Gurukul or something. Then I look around and there's
a small kid entering the building. He had a little
cell phone in his hand, like one of those really
(13:38):
old like the Nokia Double and Double zero. I think,
I guess just to communicate with his parents or something,
and just he called and said yeah, up a reach
and then he started walking upstairs. And I asked like,
is this says Gurukul, and yeah, come come, I'm going there.
Only that was actually little Prug who was I think
what this was eight years back with barely eleven or twelve,
and Viva was also there day she was I think
(14:01):
I remember speaking to her mother that day. Namata, who's
actually been captured on camera quite a bit during this
World Cup. And Nambata used to say like they traveled
once a month to Chennai from Knackpore for training, and
every time they came, Diva doesn't want to go back,
like she just wants to stay here. She doesn't want
to go back to Knackpore. They actually got an apartment
arranged close by to where the Chessgurukul was, where I
(14:23):
think helped them arrange that, and they used to stay
there every time they came once a month to train.
So yeah, that happened eight years back. I kind of
remembered that last week when I was following this event.
So yeah, casual.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
Flex amit minek this story that you told me. I
think our listeners will be very interested in watching TV
and Prug at that age. So there is a very
fascinating video on YouTube where if you search for this
title that Prugu and div Are play I think chigur
in a chess or something like that. So if you
(14:57):
look at that game, they are both playing against each
other with ten seconds on the clock, both of them,
with every move earning them one one second each. I
think this must be when Devia is around twelve years
and prug is around roughly the same.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
Age or something.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
It's one of the most fascinating things I've seen in
chairs these two kids look like really sweet. Like Prug
is standing up because I think his height was a
little short, so he could not reach the end of
the board, so he needed to stand up. Divi is there,
Divia's father is there in the video, and Prug's mother
is there somewhere in the video also, so really fascinating once,
and I think the YouTube algorithm will keep like pulling
(15:31):
out these videos and throwing them up as the days pass,
because I think the era of DVR is kind of started.
When I could just a small segue before you ask
your next question, I think you spoke about India and China, right,
So I was just looking at, you know, the top
one hundred girls in August twenty twenty five. This is
obviously girls who are under the age of twenty in
(15:53):
that list. In the top twenty five, if you look,
it's obviously dominated.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
By DVA, who's number one.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
But then in the top twenty there are five Indians
as compared to just two Chinese players there. So right
now it might seem like China is the dominant force,
but India is definitely coming up and coming up first.
Speaker 4 (16:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Perfect.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Also that the video thing that you mentioned, I remember
distinctly this. I mean, I don't remember much from that
day of visiting the chessburucule apart from the story I wrote,
but I distinctly remember Plug had this style of folding
his knees on the bench and looking over the board,
like he doesn't sit on the bench with his foot down,
like the feet are up on the bench, and then
(16:34):
he folds them underneath like he's in some yoga position
or something. I distinctly remember that image for some reason.
But yeah, mine, we briefly discussed the big picture there,
where do we go from here?
Speaker 2 (16:44):
And all that.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
The good thing is also the three players that you
mentioned are quite young, right, I mean between the ya
Vaishali and one Thika. So that's one positive thing. So
what do we expect from your conversations? What do we
expect from them next? Like, what would be the natural
progression from here? Since India have two places the candidates already?
So what is it natural progression that you would like
to see from.
Speaker 5 (17:03):
Your own Yeah, so as far as this circle of
the candidates are concerned, because candidates is something which all
the players look forward for, right, So there are eight
places where the winner gets the chance to challenge. The
current world champion in this case, as we've already mentioned,
is Joe Engine.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
So we have two spots.
Speaker 5 (17:21):
We already had two spots last time where we're sually qualified.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
Along with Humpy, but this time we have Humpy and.
Speaker 5 (17:29):
They were but there are a few more spots left
through FIDE circuit points and there is one more spot.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
Reserve for like the average of all the.
Speaker 5 (17:36):
Performance that like I won't go into details and all
those things, but there is still a good possibility that
one more Indian might qualify for the candidates. But without
you know, heading too much into the future, but speaking
purely on what we have right now, I see three
really good solid players in the via v, Shally and Vantica.
All three are got from nineteen to twenty twenty to
(17:58):
twenty two, so they have a lot of age where
them and they're becoming like stronger every game they're playing.
Speaker 4 (18:03):
Right, So is yet to become a GM among.
Speaker 5 (18:07):
These three, And like as they were it said that
GM title is something which will eventually come. So for
her to become a GM, like it took one of
the massive wood from her because like she was not
actually looking to get that title because it's not something
which you gain from one event. So just to compare,
like i a start from the via first and then
I'll move on to other players, just to compare, you know,
(18:28):
the wess qualities without demeaning her win like from the
male players, from her counterparts from among the Indian prodigies.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
I mean her attitude.
Speaker 5 (18:36):
Like one of the things which we have noticed that
in almost all the equal positions, even though in fear
of the position where she was not having the edge
on the board, she never used to take the draw
off or bait from Tanzongi, bait from Zujin, her way
from Hurrica, bit from Humpty. So that quality, if you
remember during the twenty four World Championship, Goukeish was also
(18:56):
like like, okay, all the Indian players they have that
never gave up attitude, but not to take a draw
from a losing position from an equal position also takes
a lot of gut, right, So in that way, like
she has that belief on her that she has been
doing that for ages that you know, never to take
a draw in an equal position, always grind for the when,
always grind to fight, and all those things are there.
(19:17):
I mean her ultra aggressive approach which we have already discussed,
is something which is very similar to Nihal serin. If
I have to you know, just compare. I mean, if
I also have to compare that, I can compare that
with Humpy. Humpy is also really sharp in terms of
you know, rapid or blitz, shorter time format games. So
those are the things which makes they were really good
(19:38):
at what she does for Vitually, she is a very
momentum friendly player. I mean, if she's winning few rounds,
you will see that she'll end up winning more and
more rounds. This has been her like weakness and strength
at the same time. I mean, if you remember the
candidates last time, the first half was terrible for her
and the second half was really good that she eventually
(19:59):
finished joints A alongside Humpy and third like based on
the tie break points she had. So that way, she
need to just look at her time skill. Time management
is something which has bothered both vasually and one.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
They are both. Yeah, apart from like these three players.
Speaker 5 (20:15):
We can expect them to you know, come into top
ten really soon. Deva has been around, you know, world
number eighteen seventeen, she has touched fifteen. She has already
crossed twenty fifteen during the Budapest Olympire. So world ranking
are not something which they look forward for us to
judge on the metrics or the rise of the Indian women.
I really feel that these three will make into world
(20:37):
top ten really soon.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Lovely think we'll start wrapping up on a final thoughts.
You've been speaking to a lot of people in the
Indian chess community. I know, the men's chess, we've discussed
a lot about, you know, the wide variety of talent
that we've had, the burst of GMS that we keep seeing.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Women's chess.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
On the other end, like you guys have mentioned, which
is the fourth Grandmaster from India, that boom is yet
to happen.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Do you see that happening in the new future?
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Just in terms of the widening of the pool, how
is your outlook on the future for Indian women's test
Just to kind of concluding.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Remark, Yeah, so if you look at this World Cup final, right,
it was one of the most inspirational things to have
happened to women's chess in India because on the one hand,
you have a nineteen year old going on and winning,
and on the other hand, you have a thirty eight
year old whose career is kind of finding a second
wind in a sense, and she's there in the final
after having achieved whatever there is to achieve, taking like
(21:29):
a semi break of sorts because she gave birth to
a daughter. She's come back and she's risen back to
the top. Right, So that kind of sends a message
to the rest of the girls right now that a
you don't have to be too young all too old
to be successful in this sport. There is way too
much longevity. It's not as if it's just a young
person's port. And if you are twenty and you've not
(21:51):
become a grandmaster, that means your best days are behind
you and you have to move on.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
Right.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
So, in Diviya's Rise, there is plenty of takeaways for
India woman. In Humpy's Resurgence, there is again way too
many takeaways for everybody.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Perfect As a fellow thirty something setting, ahmait and I
will vouch for the Humpy bit. It is inspirational to
see what she does as a couple of eighty seven bonds.
I think, yeah, nice to see that she still got it.
I mean, as much as we've spoken about Ive, you
are great achievement by Humpy as well that I found
that symmetry interesting that a nineteen year old took on
a thirty eight year old twice a age in the final.
(22:26):
Just another you know the thing that Amit keeps talking
about writing about the Indian earthquake, Just earthquake, just another
tremor in recent times, so many achievements. We've discussed quite
a few of those.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
This is this you reminding me that I should find
other metaphors for advent, just because I've frankly run out
of metaphors. Yea earthquake is something that Gary kashp for outside.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
I'm sticking with it.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
When a metaphor works, you just, I mean, there's no
reason to change it. But yeah, I mean, of course
that's where it is, right, I think. I mean, in fact,
props to Amu. I'm sure like you guys follow our
chess coverage and all that, but I think the column
on the Indian women's chest, this whole thing women's just
coming together having a sort of at a good time,
came much before the finals and even semi finals. I
(23:08):
think it's just around the round of sixteen that you
had already called it saying great to see these group
of players doing well, so yeah, keep following U chess coverage.
Thanks a lot for your time, Ahmaed and Mike, I
hope you enjoyed your debut as the diva of this podcast.
To the Umpi of me and Ahmad the young one,
thanks for your insights. Hope you guys enjoyed listening to it.
(23:28):
We'll be back soon with another episode and hopefully we'll
have me heat us Auta back as well for that one.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Thanks a lot for listening.
Speaker 6 (23:35):
You were listening to Express Sports by the Indian Express.
This week's show was edited and mixed by Sosh Pawar
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get to know about us. You can also tweet us
at Express Podcasts and write to us at podcasts at
(23:58):
Indian Express dot com.
Speaker 4 (24:00):
Eight
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