Best DC Comics Stories MEGA EPISODE (Best Batman, Best Alfred, Best Batman Writers, Best Superman, Best Batman v Superman Stories)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Jingle bells, Batman Smells, Robin Late and Egg. Hello and
welcome to Geek History Lesson. I am Ashley, Victoria Robinson.
Christmas is right around the corner. We've had so many
amazing winter festivities. Festivist is right ahead of us as
the Yule Tide comes to a close, And to celebrate
this week, we are putting out our Best DC Comics

(00:23):
Stories Mega episode, featuring some of our past episodes exploring
the best stories from DC Comics. We have for you
best Batman family stories, Best Batman writers of all Time,
Best Superman stories, and top five Batman vs. Superman stories,
all riddled with incredible guests, all featuring myself and Jason Inman,
and all giving you some great story recommendations to check

(00:46):
out from DC Comics on your holiddays off. Whether you
like Batman, whether you like Superman, whether you like Batman
and Superman together, you are gonna get a lot of
fantastic recommendations and a lot of explorations of what it
takes to write these characters right. So, without further ado,
Best DC Comic Stories Mega Episode, Take it Away, Past

(01:09):
Jason and past Ashley.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
For a loner orphan who likes to beat up criminals
in alleyways. The superhero Batman sure likes to surround himself
with partners and sidekicks. He's created his own Batman family
or group of Gotham Knights, if you will, and there
are plenty of comics out there to read in order
to get to know Batman's family and how they view
him and how they manage to stand out from Batman's shadow.

(01:34):
So let's dig into the best Batman family stories because
this Geek History Lesson is now in session. Hello, and
welcome to Geek History Lesson. I am Jason Knightwing is

(01:58):
the best Inman. I am Ashley Victoria Robinson.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
Welcome to your mind University because you have stumbled onto
the podcast where we take one character construct or bat
family member from popular culture and each you everything you
need to know about them in about an hour.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
Except this week because it's a list episode.

Speaker 1 (02:14):
Yes now.

Speaker 2 (02:14):
Gotham Knights is one of the most anticipated superhero games
this year. It draws inspiration from multiple comic books, including
Batman and bat Family comic books, and just in case
you didn't know, the game tells the story of the
bad family dealing with the aftermath of Batman's death in
the Batman Arkhamknight series and the Court of Owls threatening

(02:35):
Gotham City. This game lets players take control of Batgirl,
Robin Knight, Wing, and Red Hood. And so we thought
to kind of, you know, get your hackles up in
anticipation of Gotham Knights. We would tell you the best
Batman Family stories that will, you know, help improve your
experience of Gotham Knights. And we also want to hear

(02:58):
your list of what you think are the best Batman
Family stories and whatnot and actually where can they do that?

Speaker 1 (03:05):
You can do that at Facebook dot com just geek
History Lesson, on Twitter at GHL podcast, or on Instagram
at geek history Lesson.

Speaker 2 (03:13):
Yeay, Now, there are no official rules to this list,
except we just said the stories we picked couldn't just
be about Batman himself. They had to feature him teaming
up with one of his partners or his partners teaming
up on their own. It kind of has to just
be a team up story of evolving Batman characters.

Speaker 1 (03:33):
That's it.

Speaker 2 (03:34):
So that's what we're calling it Batman Family.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
I'm glad you.

Speaker 2 (03:36):
Asked now in case you don't know who the Batman
Family is you know, Ashley. I've prepared a little list here,
a little list. It's actually quite long. I have a
rough list, and I'm certain I'm missing people of who
all was considered to be in the Batman Family in

(03:57):
each era of comic books. Okay, and I thought I
would read these list to you.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (04:00):
Now, The Bad Family, in case you don't know, is
a network of like minded crime fighters who operate in
and around Gotham, with Batman as the leader. In the
Golden Age of comic books, you know, the period from
about nineteen thirty eight to about the early nineteen sixties,
the bath Family was Alfred Beagle, Alfred Beagle, that was

(04:23):
Alfred's original name, Howard Pass, Richard, Dick Grayson, Robin, bet Caane,
the bat Girl, Helena Wayne Huntress, Katherine Kathy Kane, the Batwoman,
Selina Kyle Wayne, Catwoman, What and Bruce Wayne. Yeah, Batman
and Calwoman got married in the original Earth two were

(04:45):
in the Silver and Bronze Ages of Earth one. The
bat Family, of course was Batman, Batgirl, Barbara Gordon, Richard,
Dick Grayson, Robin, Alfred Pennyworth, Jason Todd, Robin bet Caane,
bat Girl, Katherine Kathy Kane, Batman Woman, Ace, the bat Hound,
and bat Might bat Might.

Speaker 1 (05:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:04):
Now, actually you want to explain who Batman is, just
in case Amy doesn't lie. He is a fifth dimensional imp.

Speaker 1 (05:10):
He sucks, that's obsessed with Batman. Yeah, and he's got jokes, jokes, joke.
He doesn't suck, he's he is a very silver age
concept that works in silver age comics and I think
works in contemporary cartoons. But unfortunately people still think he's funny.

Speaker 2 (05:25):
Now post crisis, post nineteen eighty five on the quote
unquote New Earth posts the destruction of the Multiverse, the
members of the bat Family were progressively phased out because,
like Superman, they kind of said, well, Batman.

Speaker 1 (05:38):
Should be alone.

Speaker 2 (05:39):
But then eventually it just got bigger and bigger and bigger,
and I think created the era of the bat Family
that I think Ashley and I love the most. I
was gonna say, you mean, the best era, yees. During
this era, it was Batman, of course, Bruce Wayne Huntress,
Helena Burtnelly, Stephanie Brown Spoiler who would also become Robin,
who would also become Batgirl, Cassandra Kane Batgirl, Timothy Tim Drake,

(06:02):
who became Robin and Red Robin, Barbara Gordon who was
Batgirl and Oracle, Richard Dick Grayson who was Robin Knightwing
and Batman, Selena Kyle who was Catwoman, Alfred Pennyworth, Jason
Todd who was Robin and Redhood, Damian Wayne who became Robin,
Jean Paul Valley who became Ozriel and Batman, Lucius Fox,
and anx Adams anx Adam.

Speaker 1 (06:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (06:25):
Anx Adams is like sort of a Gangstreet Oh yes, yes,
she like is one of his contacts that sort of
like works and it's a it's she is one of
his undercover operators.

Speaker 3 (06:37):
Ya.

Speaker 2 (06:38):
I was like, who is that. She hasn't appeared in
anything recently.

Speaker 1 (06:43):
I believe so.

Speaker 2 (06:43):
And then in the New fifty two Rebirth Era h
this is when in the Bad Family explodes. Yeah, the
Bad Family is Bruce Wayne, Cassandra Kine, Uh Claire Clover,
Gotham Girl, Barbara Gordon, Batgirl, Selena Kyle, Catwoman Julia Penniworth,
the daughter of Alfa Duke, Thomas, Robin Slash, the Signal,
Damian Wayne, Stephanie Brown, Henry Hank Clover Junior, who has

(07:07):
got them Tim Drake, Robin Dick, Grayson, night Wing, Lucius
Luke Fox who's bat Wing, Catherine Kate Kane who is Batwoman, Clayface,
Alfred Pennyworth, Harper Row Slash, Bluebird, Jason Todd, Redhood, Jean
Paul Valley, Asrael David zim zim zimz of Zimbae. I

(07:28):
believe Batwing Mincoa CoA Khan who is ghost Maker and
the last and most controversial member and that is now
considered to be part of the Bat Family. Harley Quinn,
I'm going.

Speaker 1 (07:40):
To give that a big old boo. Do not accepted,
Kennon unaccepted.

Speaker 2 (07:46):
Now, Ashley, I want to ask you, what do you
think makes the bat family so unique?

Speaker 1 (07:51):
Why do people love these.

Speaker 2 (07:55):
I don't want to say weird, but these interesting sidekicks
that seem to love a big bat daddy who doesn't
love them back.

Speaker 1 (08:03):
Yeah, because of what it says about Bruce Wayne Batman,
whom Bruce Wayne gets very little by way of character development,
basically from the age of ten when his parents are
killed until however old you decide when you do your
episode of your Batman chronological timeline, he is if you
remember that episode, Jason and I I think our Batman
is about forty seven years old.

Speaker 2 (08:22):
I believe forty eight is where we landed. And in
the same year actual, yeah, we made Superman forty seven,
we made Batman.

Speaker 1 (08:28):
Forty something like that. But by having by being an
orphan who adopts children, or if not literally adopting them,
then sort of figuratively takes these misfits under his wings,
it tells you a lot about who Bruce Wayne is
in his heart of hearts, and.

Speaker 2 (08:47):
Who is Bruce Wayne and in his heart of hearts
Ashley a little boy who needs a hug.

Speaker 1 (08:51):
Yeah. But actually I think the Harley Quinn season three
episode Ill the Streets that really well, and that is
something that we can all connect to on a really
primal level. And I think it's one of the nicer aspects.
It's one of the nicer things that you can say
about Batman because in the contemporary era, I think we're
a little bit more okay, being like, hey, Batman's not okay.

(09:14):
Bruce Wayne might not be okay, should he be the
person that we idolize as a hero. But doing something
like maintaining a family that is noble and that is
heroic and that's something that we can all understand cause
we'll have families, I think, so thank you for letting
me stand on my soapbucks.

Speaker 2 (09:31):
I also think a big part of it is because
when Robin was originally introduced in the nineteen thirties, Robin
was meant to be us the reader. Yeah, and so
I think anyone that partners with Batman is us because
you know, let's be honest, he actually isn't gonna partner
with anyone. Well, yeah, truely think about who Batman is.

(09:53):
I do think that Batman is very similar to like
sort of the Dark Knight rises Dark Knight Batman begins version,
he will not partner with any I agree, and we
sort of get past that in the metaphysical by having
the partner be us the reader.

Speaker 1 (10:07):
Something that I kind of drag the current Bat family
because also characters like Boys and I You are now
considered part of the bat Family, and there are canon
members of the Bat Family like Kate Kine that, like,
I just don't believe Batman would accept.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
As members of the Bat Family. But that's neither here
nor there.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
What's great about having the Bat Family now extend to
like twenty five characters is the diversity of the types
of characters that are involved, so it is easier as
a reader, it's easier now than ever to see yourself
as worthy of putting on the mantle.

Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yeah, it's notice and that's nice. It's not just a
bunch of small, black haired boys. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (10:40):
Although I do love that sort of retcon of Jason
having red hair, I do too, but I understand like
you can't really do it.

Speaker 2 (10:45):
But yeah, okay, everybody, Now we're going to dive into
the best Batman family stories. We're gonna have a great conversation.
But if you like our conversations and you need more,
I want to remind you this week's geek History Lesson
extra episode on Patreon is who who should be Added
to the Batman Family. We just talked about how big
it is, and now we're going to talk about how
it should be a lot bigger. Those episodes are just

(11:08):
like this, except we sometimes cursing them. So head on
over to patreon dot com slash job one that's jaw
ii in and join us over there to get more
podcasts like Jason and Jeremy John about Justice League, where
we review every single episode of Just League. The animated series,
and you get four bonus episodes of GHL, extra Marvel
Club episodes, and two episodes of the Justice Pod every month.

(11:30):
So go check it out over at patreon dot com
slash John and thanks to all our super friends that
support the podcast over there. All right, Ashley, let's get
into this. I just realized, can I start with an
honorable mention? Sure?

Speaker 1 (11:47):
I have all my honorable mentions for the end, but yes.

Speaker 2 (11:50):
Uh, let's see what Amos was going to have. I
think I have something different. We often talk about it.

Speaker 1 (11:55):
We often talk about also rands, but do you want
to just rattle through them right now? Uh?

Speaker 2 (11:59):
Yeah, I'm gonna be honest here. The reason why I'm
bringing this up is because I realized that I have
six things on my list and that doesn't work. So
my number six is automatically honorable mention. Okay. I also
want to mention that I am automatically for me. This
is just for me, this is not for Ashley. I'm

(12:20):
taking the story Batman No Man's Land automatically off my
list because in our episode GHL episode one, I called
it the greatest comicook event of all time, and I
knew it would automatically trump everything on this list, so
I took it off. I'm gonna tell you that I
did not follow that role. I knew you wouldn't, so

(12:40):
I tried to be. My honorable mention is Robbins, the
most recent twenty two comic by Tim Seely, which has
the former Robins, Dick Grace and Jason Todd, Tim Drake,
Stephanie Brown, and Dami Wayne all teaming up.

Speaker 1 (12:53):
I also had Robinson my honorable mention. I really liked it.

Speaker 2 (12:57):
Maybe in a couple of years it'll make it up. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:59):
Yeah. I also have The Long Halloween in my honorable
mentions because I do think it's a little too Batman
specific focused, but you do see him interacting with a
lot of very cool auxiliary Batman characters, but not as
family character.

Speaker 2 (13:13):
I don't think I would ever call that a bat
family story, but it.

Speaker 1 (13:16):
Is a story that I love, so I was like,
maybe I can wiggle it on here. And then the
other one, which is nothing but team ups. If you've
never checked out Little Gotham Dustin Wins compilation series, it
highlights all of the best aspects of Gotham City, all
the characters that we love the most, from Batman bat
family stories, and it has, with the exception of Damien

(13:36):
my favorite Batman lineup. Nice. So those are those were
my three sort of honorable mentions. Very well, all right, let's.

Speaker 2 (13:43):
Get into the number five, Ashley, what is your fifth
best Batman family story?

Speaker 1 (13:47):
My number five doesn't even have Batman, and it knocks
it up the list. I think it is called and
imagine this in the Farmer's Auto insurance jingle, what it
is we are Robin dun da dun dun dun dun
d That's like my brain always does that when I
say we are Robin. Okay, you know, like the JK.

(14:08):
Simmons commercial. Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. It is a
twenty fifteen series written by leeber Mayhoe with a whole
bunch of artists or Hey Corona, Rob Haynes, Kyrie Randolph,
And this is the story that, for all intents and purposes,
although it's not his official first appearance, introduces Duke Thomas
to the larger comic book reading audience. He is a

(14:30):
victim of the Joker, and we see him searching for
his family and as he is undergoing that, meeting up
with a number of other street kids and misfits in
Gotham City, and together they kind of like the approach
that we see at the end of Spider Verse. They
all say, well, why not us, why not be Robin.

(14:52):
They self fashion in a very teenage mutant Ninja Turtles
esque style, their own Robin costume. Like, my favorite part
about all of you are Robin, honestly is the design element.
So Duke is joined Jackets.

Speaker 2 (15:04):
They're so cool. There's a shame that DC never merchandized those.

Speaker 1 (15:07):
Never merchandize those a merchandized John Kent's Jackets is joined
by Daxon, dre Rico, and Isabella prominently, but also some others,
some of whom die very quickly as they basically form
a vigilante Robin gang. I am not necessarily interested in
advocating for vigilante justice in any way, shape or form,

(15:28):
but in the world of Batman, in the world of
the DC universe, and in the world of Gotham City,
I think this is a a noble aspirational thing to do.
They build their own bat family, they build their own
Robin family, their own found family, which is a theme
that you and I really really.

Speaker 2 (15:42):
Loved and did I remember correctly isn't Alfred secretly just
moving to that.

Speaker 1 (15:47):
And I would say that very early on they are legitimized.
Now it is a quote unquote mystery. I never found
this to be particularly mysterious. It was pretty obvious. Not
as a drag to anyone who worked on this. It's
just hard to pull the wool over my eyes in comics,
and we're reading comics for so long. Now there's a
mysterious benefactor who gives them the nest, which eventually becomes

(16:08):
their base as we head into Robin Wars, gives them
equipment and sort of basic training, and then sort of
acts like an oracle from time to time, and that
is later revealed to be Alfred driving a semi truck,
which is really cool. It's a really great use of
Alfred as well. It's a way to see Alfred step
outside of the Batman family without really doing anything all

(16:31):
that different, at least directly into Robin War which happens
when Damian, Dick, Jason, and Tim kind of come along,
discover these characters, legitimize the ones who are one doing
a good job and two still alive, and then eventually
fold Duke into the Batman family as signal. I don't
think Duke sadly has had much to do past this

(16:51):
and his mini series, and I do think Duke is
a great character. You and I have a gee Kissory
lesson on him. We talk about Duke a lot and
how he should be utilized.

Speaker 2 (16:57):
But Robin War action figure Spotlight Ashley has Ashley has
from a gift for me the Duke Thomas as We
Are Robin, which I was so happy they made that
action figure. Oh would you do my.

Speaker 1 (17:13):
Favorite Make a note and I'll take a picture of
that share on our socials because it is a great,
a great, great action figure, and I never ever thought
we would get a Duke Thomas action figure. But We
Are Robin slash Robin War, I think is some of
the most interesting expansion of the Batman family that we've
had in contemporary comics. And of course I'm super super
biased just because of my love for Robin, but I

(17:34):
think it's really really well done, and I think it
takes the spirit and the ethos of the Batman Family
into something new and different with it.

Speaker 2 (17:40):
So that's my number five.

Speaker 1 (17:42):
We Are Robin did not make my list. I didn't
think it would, but as I was as I was.
I didn't do a ton of research for this. I
pretty much knew it was going to be on my
list from jump because these are my favorite type of
Batman stories, and I knew we are Robin was going
to be on my list. It's how you and I
got connected to Jorge Corona, who drew a backup in
the original volume of Jupiter Jet. We own a page

(18:05):
from Robin Ward that he drew. We do own a
page when we have Robin Yeah, with Damien in it.
So like, this story just means a lot to me,
and I was going to keep it on my list
no matter what. Sure, So Jason, what is your number five?

Speaker 2 (18:16):
My number five is something that you already mentioned. Little
Gotham is my number five. Oh, it's so good. Dustin
Wynn and Derek Fridof's Little Gotham is, in my opinion,
one of the most delightful things to come out of
DC in years. It's a ken friendly title. It's the
title that everybody saw. It's you know, everybody has enormous heads,
they have tiny little bodies and stubby arms. It is

(18:38):
a bat flavored War's Waldough. Every chapter of this book
stands own as a fun one shot adventure, but it
allows anybody that's familiar with the mythology to pick up.
One of the stories I just wanted to talk about
is a story set on Sandwich Day.

Speaker 1 (18:55):
Oh It's so good.

Speaker 2 (18:56):
While the rest of Gotham is preparing for Thanksgiving, Damien
is on the lookout for his escaped pet Turkey. Jerry
and Damien and Batman search for the lost bird as
the young Robin is relentlessly teased by callous Gotham citizens.
These stories are like sweet, and they're very sincere, and
the dialogue is minimal, but they tell like so many

(19:17):
simple and lighthearted stories. And this is a book that
is all about the family aspect. It is probably even
though there was a book called Batman and Robin about
Damien and Batman being father and son, this book is
so much about a boy that actually acts like an
eight year old and his dad and all the various

(19:39):
characters in their family, the weird cousins, the weird step brothers.
It's really special. But a lot of the love here
goes to the art from Dustin Wynn. The book is
beautiful because it's a watercolor painted book. It doesn't pantter
to kids They're not sugarcoated stories, but they're emotionally resonant.
One of the little beats that I really love is

(20:02):
that in this version of the bat Family universe, Damian
is allowed to play video games in the back computer,
which I think is very cute, which is something that
regular universe Bruce would never allow to happen. And it's
just a ton of fun. It's it's the thing that
we love about the Batman family. We get to see
them be a bat family. We get to see them

(20:24):
be a family, but the crime fighting is secondary. I
do think this book is woefully out of print, but.

Speaker 1 (20:31):
It was not that hard though I will say you
can definitely get.

Speaker 2 (20:34):
Copies of it. It was a DC Digital book first
before they print it, so I believe if you do
have the streaming service DC Infinite or DC comicx Infidite, whatever,
I believe it's entirely all this it is. I also
think you can get it through Comicxsology, even though I
know Commosology has become quite difficult. But Little Gotham, to me,
it treats Damien more like a kid than a crime fighter,

(20:56):
and I think that is super charming and it really
let me let you see Batman as a dad, which
is something that the mainstream Batman comics I think hide.

Speaker 1 (21:06):
They're not as interested in that anymore.

Speaker 2 (21:08):
Yeah, I know they don't care about that as well.
So that like Batman Little Gotham is my number five.

Speaker 1 (21:14):
Nice if you like these designs too. Dustin Wynn is
really good about keeping up with his store and he
often releases a lot of art in this style as well. Yeah,
and I just think he doesn't get enough credit. I
think he's really talented. He is really talent. Ashley, what's
your number four? My number four is a book that
I am super super warm on. I know Jason is not,

(21:35):
as it's not as beloved to him, so I felt
confident putting it on my list. It would not be
on Jason's list. Batman Battle for the Cowl, I would
just say Slash Batman Rip a little bit as well.
Written and drawn by Tony Daniel, another very very nice person.
It is the two thousand and nine storyline directly following
the death of Bruce Wayne, where all the members of

(21:57):
the Batman family have to figure out who's gonna who's
gonna step up, who's gonna be in line. I think
who's going to be the next Batman. I don't think
there was ever any doubt how it was going to go, because.

Speaker 2 (22:08):
They released the solicitation, so the cover of Batman Robin
number one, it was already out there.

Speaker 1 (22:12):
How obviously there was going to be Dick. However, what
I really appreciated about this storyline and uh, I was
a teenager when this came out, so I was also
at the height of my asty period. Uh, and this
came out after my dad died, So uh, the like
angst and the feelings and like the fully unhealthy way

(22:33):
that these people are dealing with this incredible loss in
their personal lives, but also in their professional lives and
also in the lives of Gothamites. I found to be
really really resonant and really really honest. I love that
it is one of the last times where I feel
like the brotherly bond that I really like seeing between
Dick and Tim is illustrated in a way that I
like seeing. There's a panel where they're in the bat

(22:55):
Cave and Tim like collapses and Dick just holds him.
I also so think that it really illustrates why Jason
Todd should like absolutely not be a functioning member of
the Batman family because.

Speaker 2 (23:05):
He becomes Evil Batman in the storyline.

Speaker 1 (23:07):
He does, and he uses guns, and I like it.

Speaker 2 (23:09):
It's a cool design, his Evil Batman amazing costume.

Speaker 1 (23:13):
I like Jason Todd as a character. I think Jason
Todd became interesting after he came back from the dead,
but I don't think that he should be wearing a
Batman symbol, and I don't think he should be a
consistent member of the team.

Speaker 2 (23:24):
I agree with you, he's better as a supervillain. I
think or or or.

Speaker 1 (23:27):
And I hate this phrase, you know, I hate this
diter or adds to somebody who like it's my thing
with Harley Quinn, is my thing with Poison Ivy, It's
my thing with Catwoman, someone who strides both sides of
the line. But I do not think any of those
character should be members in the Batman family. And I
will die on that hill.

Speaker 2 (23:44):
Original page Spotlight, Oh yes, Ashley also gave me.

Speaker 1 (23:48):
I gave Ashley from.

Speaker 2 (23:50):
An original Tony Daniel page from this series.

Speaker 1 (23:52):
Which features like I think, almost all of my most
beloved Batman.

Speaker 2 (23:56):
Character features, and this is the reason why I bought it.
It features night in Squire I really love it. Night
it is night Wing, like telling Knight and Squire what
to do, yeah, yeah, yeah, And then I think Tim
Drake pops up on.

Speaker 1 (24:08):
Into he is tens in like I think a panel.
But Battle for the Cowl also starts to introduce this
thing which Morrison picks up and explains a lot more.
But the international Batman, the Batman inc of it all,
which is really interesting. So I have just a very
emotional tie to this story when I read it in.

Speaker 2 (24:24):
My life it is very I mean, every Batman family
character appears in this book and it's only three issues.

Speaker 1 (24:30):
It is it's I just love Tony Daniel's art. I
think it's so beautiful. It captures very much like an
era of Batman comics that I was really invested in
and I really loved. And ultimately I just like, I
love a sad boy and I love a sad bat Kid,
and this is all that this story is, and there's
no Batman in it. Switch for me is an unexpected plus.

(24:51):
So again, when I was making my list, I absolutely
knew that Battle for the Cowl again maybe Slash Batman
Rip was going to appear on my list, and I
felt comf that it wouldn't be on Jason's list.

Speaker 2 (25:02):
Well, it's funny because your two choices so far, like
they are stories that I consider, but both of them
don't end absolutely. Yeah, it just stops and it says,
read Batman and Robin number one, Yes, and then we
are Robin just well, well it goes under if you consider.

Speaker 1 (25:19):
Robin war does have a conclusion, but Duke doesn't get
his due, and then as the protagonist of the.

Speaker 2 (25:24):
Series, and then Robin Warr basically cancels that book.

Speaker 1 (25:26):
Yeah. And then Rico, who is the Asian American Robin,
who's another character that I really love, was in conflict
with Goth. McConney was coming out at the same time
with Maps, and they I really wanted to see more
from that character, but I think they shelved her so
that the Maps and I love Maps, so it can
be wrong, could have a little bit more to do
as well.

Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yes, but so that for me, and I'm not saying
like my list, yeah, I will say I considered both
these choices, but I the reason why my choices went
out was because, like I went for stories that gave
me an emotional conclusion.

Speaker 1 (25:59):
Yeah, I went for stories that I liked that's fine.
That's fine, which is usually my list. So anything more
about Robin sorry sor what col I also think it's
an all time great title. It's a good book. Covers
are amazing. I own the hardcover Dane. Oh yeah, I
mean look, Tony Daniel has has made a huge stamp

(26:21):
on Batman in various different stories. But like anytime Tony
Daniel's on a Batman book, I'm like, this is going
to be a good time. So Jason, then what is
your number four?

Speaker 2 (26:29):
Oh? My number four could also be considered a Battle
for the Cow?

Speaker 1 (26:35):
Nice transition? Yes, because mine if listeners of the longtime
listeners of this podcast, no, I know what you're saying.

Speaker 2 (26:42):
I know. Then I have a conflicted time with this title.
So my number four is Batman prodigal. Yes, I used
to say prodigal. I have a but this is the
first time that Dick grace and puts on the cow
and becomes Batman. This is picking up after the events

(27:05):
of Nightfall. Bruce decides that he needs more time and
maybe some more ladies before he goes back to being Batman,
and he decides to hand the cowl over to Dick
Grayson and This is Dick going through a difficult time
in his life because he feels a bit betrayed because
Bruce handed over the cow to Jean Paul Valley, the
crazy azri Os Bots and you know, this is Dick

(27:28):
Grayson as Batman teaming up with Tim Drake. Is Robin
going through Gotham. This is I believe it's like eight
issues it is. This is Tim and Dick, two brothers
teaming up as Batman Robin. It's really good and there's
a lot of amazing art and a Graham Nolan, one
of who's one of my favorite band artists, like the

(27:50):
the very one of the most famous covers of Tim
and Tim Drake Robin and Batman are is from this
Runts cover.

Speaker 1 (27:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:00):
Now two Vase is also the big villain of this story.
And that's a great thing because if you've ever read
Robin Year one by the great Chuck Dixon and Scott Betty,
you realize that Dick Grayson of course made his biggest
mistake as Robin, which resulted in the death of a judge.

Speaker 1 (28:14):
That is something you.

Speaker 2 (28:15):
See in Robin Year one, such a good book, and
they bring that back because in this Dick must overcome
the memory of that as Batman to bring down two
Face and prove that he's worthy of the cow. Now,
this is written by three legendary Batman writers, Chuck Dixon,
Alan Grant and Doug mouink Moonich. I don't know, I've
never known how to say his last name. But he's

(28:37):
also a great writer, because this ran through all the
three Batman titles the time, very seasoned.

Speaker 4 (28:43):
You know.

Speaker 2 (28:44):
The interesting thing about this is that it would have
been very easy to just put the cow on Bruce
Wayne and you know, put the cow on Dick Grayson,
I mean, and just have him write Dick exactly like Bruce.
But they don't do that because Dick is a smiley Batman, doubts,
he has insecurities, and you know, a lot of the
time Dick leans on Tim and says like, well, how

(29:06):
do you think we should do this? And it's very
interesting because they're much closer in age, and also there
was probably partners here, yes, And the conclusion of this
storyline is Bruce comes back and says, oh, I'm ready
to be Batman again, and Dick confronts him and says,
are you sure, and basically says like I don't know
if I'm going to give up being Batman. And the

(29:28):
great thing about it is you get this emotional catharsis.
And this is the first time in comics that Bruce
and Dick say they love each other. And I think
this is the story too that cements them as father
and son.

Speaker 1 (29:43):
Can you imagine, I bet when that script was submitted.
This is the nineties, we're still people being like, oh,
but the seduction of like can we have them say
I love you? I love you?

Speaker 2 (29:54):
It's like two male that ideas existed in comic books.
But like, you know, as far as I can fine,
and I've always heard this. I remember Wizard Magazine set
this back in the day and I looked again to
try to see, but I believe this. This is one
of the if not the first time on panel these
two characters go I love you, I love you. Yeah,
you know, and even like you know, look, Bruce, Wayne,

(30:15):
he's a detached from his feelings. Even he can't fully
say I love you. He kind of says like, yes,
and you know that I love you most of all,
you know, he doesn't just say I love you. Come on, dude,
just say it. Also feel very strongly for you, Dick Grayson,
my Ward.

Speaker 1 (30:30):
You're like, you're like, come on, dad, you know.

Speaker 2 (30:34):
But the I also have a Prodigal is a great
Even though it is sort of a Batman Robin story,
it is a very much a Batman family story. It's
about a son taking over the father's role, and also
Tim's a huge part of it too. To me, this
story cements a renaissance for night Wing and Dick Grayson
because without Bratman Prodigal, I don't think we get the

(30:56):
Grant Morrison run where Dick Grayson becomes Batman again.

Speaker 1 (30:58):
I'd agree with that for sure.

Speaker 2 (31:00):
They also know post this series was the big uple.
I mean, night Wing solo series was happening, happened right
after this, and I know that Batman Prodigal was a
big reason because they noticed that the sales went up
on Batman Prodigal.

Speaker 1 (31:14):
Yeah, because most people's favorite character is Dick Grayson.

Speaker 2 (31:16):
Yes, and so that was the idea where they were like,
maybe we should give Dick Grayson a solo series, and
thus a couple of years later.

Speaker 1 (31:24):
We had night Wing.

Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yeah yeah, And we've basically had a night Wing solo
series for almost twenty five years. Yeah, yeah, so I
think you could track that all back to Batman Prodigal.
So that's why Batman Prodigal is number By the way,
great trade. They finally print, they finally reprinted, and they probably.

Speaker 1 (31:43):
Been available digitally for a long long time.

Speaker 2 (31:45):
All right, all right now, Ashley, Now it is time
to get to our number three choice of the best
Batman family stories.

Speaker 1 (31:56):
Ashley, let's dive into the brave and the bold.

Speaker 2 (31:59):
Then, oh, good call, who is your number three or
what is your number three best Batman family story? My
number three.

Speaker 1 (32:09):
I resisted putting on my list because I thought it
was too obvious Batman returns. I knew it. I you
and I have put this on a couple other bat
related lists before. But there's a reason, and I think
it's just such a good illustration of this concept Batman.

Speaker 2 (32:31):
Hush oh intro. I considered that interesting interest. I thought
that was for me. I felt it was too much
of a Batman solo story. It is definitely a Batman
solo story. Batman is the POV protagonist character. But when
I worked in comics retail for a really long time,
this was one of the easiest trades to sell people

(32:52):
because it has every member everyone that you know, everyone
that you know about Batman is highlighted here, and it's
highlighted really well. Like in my opinion, like two thousand
to like two thousand and five, Jim Lee and Jeff
Loeb are like at the height of their powers just

(33:12):
for what I like.

Speaker 1 (33:13):
Seeing from what they do. And this book is such
a culmination of this. It's a reflection of my favorite
Batman family lineup. There's no Damien to be seen, spoilers.

Speaker 2 (33:25):
Barely an option.

Speaker 1 (33:28):
You get a lot of good Robin stuff, you get
a lot of good Night Wing stuff.

Speaker 2 (33:31):
Oracle is also at the height of her power.

Speaker 1 (33:34):
Superman's in it, Superman's in it, Catwoman's in it. The
villain in the Mystery of Hush Like it's not a
mystery because they introduce a new guy, so he's obviously
a villain, just like every season of The Flash. But
this is another story that tells you a little bit
more about Bruce Wayne and gives him something almost like
character development.

Speaker 2 (33:53):
And I also want to point out that one of
my favorite members of the Bad Family who doesn't get
a lot of respect, Harold, as appears in this story.

Speaker 1 (34:01):
Harold isn't the story.

Speaker 2 (34:02):
I just want to say, why isn't there a Harald
Action figure.

Speaker 1 (34:07):
That's what I'm through out there.

Speaker 2 (34:09):
I bet there is.

Speaker 1 (34:10):
I don't think there is. I bet there. I bet
you even money there's no. Well, I am not going
to google it, so I'm going to while you continue
to tell us, oh, key do key, why Hush Hush?
Simply because even though Batman is the POV character, it
very clearly illustrates why everybody who was considered a member
of the Batman family at the time, even if I

(34:31):
wasn't as super warm on them as humanly possible, why
they are important, and which aspect of Batman's personality they
either highlight or push against. This is also one of
the very first in canon appearances of Harley Quinn, and
it is like classic Harley Quinn with the Joker at
the Opera House, and I think them as the dark mirror.

(34:54):
Selena is also a dark mirror in this storyline, and
this posits the question and of how close are her
and Batman going to get. I think there's a direct
line between Hush and where these characters are now in
future timelines being married.

Speaker 2 (35:09):
This is the first storyline. This is the storyline where
Katwoman finds out a secret identity. Yeah, and this is
the first like true, like full on, like they're actually dating. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:17):
You and I had a full argument about the Sunky
history lesson in the early year.

Speaker 2 (35:20):
We did because I do, I do believe that Selena
is like his one is his loas, especially when you
just think about the legacy that she appears in Batman
number one in nineteen forty. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:31):
I think I've come around to that more over the years.
I don't know if I ever believe they'd be married,
though eventually I think she sails down. I think he
does too. I mean maybe in like their sixties or something. Yeah,
that's fair.

Speaker 3 (35:42):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:42):
I also Gordon appears in this. I just think that
if you are looking to see the full scope of
the Batman Harvey Dent and Harvey Dent Yes, for good
and for ill, you get to see because I like
every Batman villain appears in this too, Yes, or a
lot of them, a good chunk of them. I think
if you're looking for something that illustrates why the Batman
family works and is a really pristine example of all

(36:07):
of the characters filling their functionalities, I think you can't
get much better.

Speaker 2 (36:11):
Than hush nice.

Speaker 1 (36:12):
But the reason's out of the top of oy list
is because it's very Batman.

Speaker 2 (36:16):
Say, I did some googling. There is no Harold Ashley.

Speaker 1 (36:19):
Okay, well, I owe you nothing. We didn't make a bet.

Speaker 2 (36:23):
Well, listeners, rewind the tape and find out what Ashley
owes me. We didn't make. Email at gmail dot com.
Does actually owe me a Herald Action figure?

Speaker 1 (36:31):
Possibly? Okay, if you make Harold Action figures, you can
email us. Okay, So, Jason, what is your number three?

Speaker 2 (36:39):
Well, actually, when we're talking about the Batman family, you know,
it's pretty limiting, I think. Okay, you know, I mean
it's only.

Speaker 1 (36:47):
Twenty five characters.

Speaker 2 (36:48):
Yeah, it's only twenty five characters related to Batman. So
why have one family when you can have two families?

Speaker 1 (36:57):
Batman's have a superfamily.

Speaker 2 (36:58):
Oh no, Nonumber three is Superman Batman number five by
Jeff lob and Ed McGinnis. Because the bat Family and
the Superman family team up. Baby, it is a It
is you know, part five of the public Enemy storyline.
At the beginning of this series and Superman Batman was
the very bombastic sort of Michael Bays series where it

(37:20):
was just the Adventures and this was them. This is
the period of time when Lex Luthor was President of
the United States. Don't worry about it, but he was
evil and Superman and Batman have said, to hell with
American democracy. We're basically going to impeach him by punch
him in the face, which is, you know, the most
superhero thing.

Speaker 1 (37:37):
Is the most American thing you can This.

Speaker 2 (37:39):
Has one of the coolest combook covers I've ever seen
in my entire life. And you know this cover. It
is an Ed McGinnis cover of night Wing at the
front with Cassandra Kine, Supergirl, Superboy, Keelix, Robin Steel, Huntress, Crypto,
and Batman and Superman at the back. It is a
badass cover. The only problem with it is that I

(38:02):
have a problem with is that the Supergirl that is
in that picture was the Supergirl of the time, and
she was the daughter of Lois Lane and Clark Kent
from the future. So it's not the classic. It's it's
not cars Arel, no, it is you get it. It's
Leis and Clark's daughter from the future. And she only
existed for like one arc, but actually had a cool costume.

(38:22):
Though she does she looks like Lewis the Blacks. But
it doesn't matter because like this is the cover is cool.

Speaker 1 (38:28):
I've always looking at.

Speaker 2 (38:29):
I've always wanted this cover on.

Speaker 1 (38:33):
You know, on a poster anyways.

Speaker 2 (38:34):
So basically the issue is Superman and Batman are missing
and because they were, had the kibosh put on them
the previous issue. So the Superman and the Batman families
decide that they need to figure out where their their
their daddy's are, So they decide to break into the
White House because they know it's about and confront Lex
Luthor about where they are. So here's the plan. The

(38:57):
Superman family just bust down the front door so that
all the Secret Service and all the Superpower people come
right for them at the same time, while the Batman family,
the quote unquote stealth team sneaks in the vents and
gets into the old Office, which I think is very
Superman and very Batman. In fact, there's even a joke
where like Tim Drake is like complaining about something where

(39:19):
he's like, why couldn't we help Connor, and Nightwing has
to go, we're the stealth team. And then it all
climaxes in where Nightwen gets into a fistfight with Lex Luthor.
Of course he loses, because that's the secret of the
story is that Lex Luthor's secretly has superpowers, and that
goes into the other issue. But I won't tell you

(39:39):
the ending. I will say that their retrospective daddies Superman
and Batman are alive and they do get to rescue
their their their little Chitlin's, their their you know, their proteges.
But again, when I was thinking about what Batman for
family stories, I was like, I have I have this
cover lives rent free in my brain. And the fact

(40:01):
that it's like the Superman family and the Batman family.
I know it's only one issue, but at the time
I was reading this series like I was getting this
series every month. It's similar to Hush Superman Batman. Especially
the first twenty issues, was everything about Superman and Batman
stuffed in and passed in a really cool bo and

(40:23):
the fact that they were like, Hey, let's have the
families team up on an adventure. And to be honest
with you, I can't tell you hardly any other stories
post this where that has happened. I almost think this
is close to a singular event. So anybody out there
that's going to write for DC Comics in the futures,

(40:45):
pitch another Batman Superman family storyline.

Speaker 1 (40:48):
Let's do it.

Speaker 2 (40:49):
These characters all know each other, and let's have them
rescue their superpower daddies.

Speaker 1 (40:54):
So two things, cause I'm looking at the cover right now. Yes, One,
Crypto's on the cover. Oh I mentioned Crypto. Two the
lats on night waing, Oh yeah, in this cover, like,
I don't even know what what exercise you would do
to get them that defined.

Speaker 2 (41:11):
I'm also going to point out there is one disappointing
thing on that cover and then this issue. I'm going
to give this a you know, a negative mark. Keelix
is on this cover and does not appear in these
not appear on the issue. I was gonna be like.

Speaker 1 (41:24):
Huntresses on the cover and not an Oracle. Yeah, I'm
not a Huntress Scalp.

Speaker 2 (41:28):
Well, the Huntress was in the Justice League at this time,
I understand, So that's the reason why she's there. It
is very much a story of when it was published,
which I think was like two thousand and five six,
somewhere in there.

Speaker 1 (41:41):
Somewhere in there. My preferred Huntress is just like Earth
two hundreds. That's all mine too, but there you go.

Speaker 2 (41:48):
So yeah, Superman Batman number five, good choice, my number three.

Speaker 1 (41:52):
It's a story that I think a lot of people
have forgotten. It's a great series too. It doesn't get enough,
it doesn't enough flowers.

Speaker 2 (41:57):
It's good serial flowers.

Speaker 1 (41:58):
Yeah, like you know, that's an expression because you give
flowers to something, when someone when you've done a good job,
it is celebrating it.

Speaker 2 (42:04):
I mean it still holds up, I think, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
all right, Ashley, what's your number two? My number two is.

Speaker 1 (42:11):
A storyline that Jason said he wasn't going to put
on his list. Cousin didn't count Batman, No Man's Land.

Speaker 2 (42:17):
How did this not make your number one? You'll see?
Okay again, I called this the best comic book crossover
of all time.

Speaker 1 (42:25):
I think I did too. Yeah, it was number one.

Speaker 2 (42:28):
So that's why. That's why I like that. It's fine,
this is Ashley. I know I'm talking about it.

Speaker 1 (42:34):
You can you could absolutely.

Speaker 2 (42:36):
The reason I didn't put it on my list is
because this is the ultimate bad family cross again.

Speaker 1 (42:40):
This is my this is my favorite version of the
Batman family. This is Sandra Kyine's introduction, This is Harley
Quinn's first in Cannon introduction.

Speaker 2 (42:48):
This is Harley Quinn's introduction too this.

Speaker 1 (42:51):
Does everything that I told you that Hush did.

Speaker 2 (42:53):
And Lockout's introduction that Batman to the animated series Villain
a thousand times Everyone's favorite person.

Speaker 1 (42:59):
Like all of these characters are like so cool and
so interesting, and they're put under these extreme situations that
were not used to seeing. In the Nightwing proposes.

Speaker 2 (43:10):
To Oracle, does that not happen?

Speaker 1 (43:15):
It does not happen?

Speaker 2 (43:16):
Just kidding.

Speaker 1 (43:19):
You also get to see what each of these characters
does on their own, under their own power, because even
though Gotham has been broken up into these respective territories
and everyone is trying to hold different areas, the Batman
family is present in all of these different areas doing
all of these different things. So you get to see

(43:40):
what each and every one of the characters does well
as a singular practitioner or sometimes working in a small
tag team, and then also what they're able to accomplish
when they all come together to make their big Army
v Army stand towards the end of the event.

Speaker 2 (43:54):
It's very much Batman as the General and the Bad
Family are her soldier. Yeah, and he sends them into
different areas of the city and did to accomplish things.

Speaker 1 (44:03):
And I really think that No Man's Land deserves a
ton a ton of credit because it was. If it
wasn't the first, because I'm not going to pretend that
I read every Batman story ever to have done this,
it's the first to have done this with this level
of quality, which speaks to the editorial team that put
this all together and all of the creative teams, because

(44:25):
this book happened across every title in the Batman family
for a year, for quite a while year.

Speaker 2 (44:31):
Yeah, the entire year, I believe it his ninety eight
to ninety nine.

Speaker 1 (44:35):
I will tell you it was ninety nine, Okay, so
for all of ninety nine January December nineteen and nine. Yeah.
It is a lot of different people, all working towards
a single goal behind the scenes to tell the story
about a lot of people working to win the single
goal on panel and I, in my opinion, it is
the best execution of this that we've ever Leslie Tompkins

(44:57):
has a great storyline in this.

Speaker 2 (45:00):
Gordon has a great story, a great story lane, Superman's.

Speaker 1 (45:04):
In it, Superman is in it.

Speaker 2 (45:06):
What is your favorite little arc in this giant, massive,
year long storyline.

Speaker 1 (45:11):
Uh, Barbara signing off on Cassandra being part of the team. Okay, absolutely,
Barbara accepting Cassandra as backgirl. I really like that because
Barbara is kind of hard about it, which I think
is both true to her character as the daughter of
Jim Gordon and also as sort of a spiritual daughter
to Bruce Wayne Batman. And this is the first time

(45:34):
that she's asked to give up this legacy in this way,
and we know that she lost being back girl in
a really awful way. And I think it's a really
mature but it's not a warm acceptance. And the scene
where they're in quote unquote the Watchtower together, it's my
favorite scene. And the whole thing. What moment stands out
for you the death of Sarah Essen. Yeah, so sad.

(45:57):
They're kind of a hard couple to root for, Jim
and Sarah. Oh yeah, because of the circumstances on how
they get together.

Speaker 2 (46:04):
Well, yeah, they get together and Batman your one. Yeah,
like that's.

Speaker 3 (46:10):
One.

Speaker 1 (46:10):
I don't love that. But they are a couple that
really makes sense. Yeah, they do her kind of dirty
actually think, and the death is very very sad, but
I just don't think you get I think you get
a real I don't know if you get a better. Yeah,
that's very very true. I think this is the best
execution of this contract early Quinn season two, and I think, yeah,

(46:32):
that's very true. And I also think a lot of
major bat events and a lot of major DC events
have been aping this. I agree since the year two thousands, a.

Speaker 2 (46:41):
Lot of recent Batman events have tried to do like
their version of Noman, and they've been able.

Speaker 1 (46:48):
To pull it off. The idea of pseudo militarizing the
Batman family I think works under the circumstances post cataclysm.
It doesn't work, I think as well. In mainstream we
are citizen of the world city. It's also the thing.
And you know that's why this is my number two,
because my number one is in regular Gotham.

Speaker 2 (47:06):
It's also the thing too, where recently I have found
that there have been a lot of more recent Batman
storylines where the entire city gets taken over by something
and every month. Yeah, and now it seems like it's
every month, right, And when you think about No Man's Land,
No Man's Land was the first, and then also No
Man's Land, what.

Speaker 1 (47:24):
Did it because of the earthquake.

Speaker 2 (47:26):
You. You know, it's much harder when like if you're reading,
like let's say you're reading issue five and Gotham City
is normal, and then you read issue six and then
suddenly Gotham City is controlled by the Joker for some reason.
You're like, wait a minute, what what happened? Yeah, I
don't believe he could take over an entire city in
between issues e.

Speaker 1 (47:43):
Yeah. And the other thing about No Man's Land is
it earns this like this is an event spinal to
other events, Like this is a year's long proposition. It's
not a story that only lasted six weeks. So yeah,
So I didn't follow your rules and I said, this
is going on.

Speaker 2 (47:59):
That's why again, I just didn't put it on my
list because I knew it'd be number one.

Speaker 1 (48:03):
You are so fine, all righty, Jason, tell me what
is your number two?

Speaker 2 (48:07):
My number two is a story about all the Robins
teaming up, and it is called Robin Rises. It is
the Batman storyline by Peter Tomassi and Patrick Gleeson and
Andy Kubert. It was published in the Batman and Robin
Knew for the two series between the Hunt for Robin

(48:27):
and superpowers, and then they did. It's it's about resurrecting
Damian Wayne because Damian Wayne died in Batman, Inc. And
this is the storyline about Batman bringing him back. And
it has a lot of you know, i'm gonna say
convenience in it, but because it has all of these

(48:49):
characters teaming up as Robin's, I give it a pass.
It's like it's a bunch of robins taking care of robins.
So basically, you know, Bruce finds out that he has
a mother and he can go to Apocalypse and Damien
sarcophagus was stolen to Apocalypse by Glorious Godfrey. Why don't
worry about it? So he decides to go there, and

(49:11):
he thinks, basically, with a bunch of Apocalypse and technology,
that he can resurrect Damien. So Batman leaves all the
sidekicks behind. It's Batgirl, Tim Drake, and Redhood because at
this time, Grayson, Dick Grayson is in the series Grayson
and everybody thinks he's dead. He's pretending to be a spy.
So Batgirl comes up with another plan. She's like, I'm

(49:32):
gonna call up Cyborg because Cyborg at this time has
a mother box in his body. Yes, and he can
activate a boom tube and we can go help Batman,
and Alfred calls them aside and gives them all suits
that will help them survive on Apocalypse.

Speaker 5 (49:48):
Because he's like, oh, Cools, you know this the host
smoke and the Covarius calls m ginergyes and the suits
are all Robin suits. This is the very famous cover
you've seen where it has back Girl, Robin, and Red
Hood and they're all wearing like sort of this vest
and they all have the Robin R on their chest,
which I think actually looks really cool on Backgirl for

(50:09):
some reason. So they activate the boom tube, they go
to Apocalypse, and of course there are some great character moments,
and they eventually resurrect Damium. But like it is this
idea of this sort of like Robin armor all trying
to resurrect a Robin. To me, that is why, and
of course spoilers, it culminates with them resurrecting the Robin

(50:33):
in a very lovely moment.

Speaker 2 (50:35):
Where Bruce Wayne Huggs's son. It's a great storyline. And
also I've said this before, I think Batman and Robin
is the best series of the New fifty two hands down.
So there's a reason why I own the omnibus of
it because it is solid and this storyline I think
is the best storyline of the entire run, just because
it is the Batman family resurrecting one of their own.

(50:59):
So that's why Robin and Rises is my number two.

Speaker 1 (51:02):
Interesting.

Speaker 2 (51:03):
Now, Ashlely, it is time to get to our number
one choice of the best Batman Family stories. All right, Ashley,
we need to find out. Everybody has been waiting this
entire podcast. They need to know what is your number
one over Batman No Man's Land in best Batman Family Stories.

Speaker 1 (51:28):
It's so sorry that crawls right out of No Man's Land.
It is so It's no Manland part. It is a
title that was specifically designed to team up Batman with
members of the Batman family. That was the ethos of
this title. They have a cover where they mock up
Batgirl's first appearance where she has the batperse. One of
my all time favorite o G Batman covers.

Speaker 2 (51:47):
It's Batman Gotham Knights, which part of bathamangaan Gotham Knights.

Speaker 1 (51:50):
Well, I'm gonna count all of it, Okay, all forty
something issues. It starts out being penned by Devin Grayson.

Speaker 2 (52:00):
Ashley, what, my number one is also Batman Gotham Knights,
not we had no crossover a tut number one. My
number one is also Batman Gotham Knights. Okay, but I
specifically said issues one to twelve one is all for
the best, but they definitely are.

Speaker 1 (52:20):
It starts up being penned by Devin Grayson, who is
a writer who I would say, in the last five
years is finally starting to get her freaking due, and
they are finally starting to collect and publish a lot
of her works because of the icky personal reasons of
politics that weren't for a really really long time, so
you can actually get physical and digital versions of these
collections now. They're really really lovely and she is deaf.

(52:44):
I'm not sure exactly how long her run is. She's
definitely on the first twelve, which I think is one
of the reasons why they are so good. When we
get to issue like twenty five and later we tie
into Bruce Wayne Murderer Koomb Bruce Wayne Fugitive, which is
another event that I like a lot. So this series
touches on two of my most favorite Batman events from
around this time. I also think this is the style

(53:06):
of book that you and I talk about this all
the time, that that DC should actively be publishing, Like
there should be a Batman family book. I mean, Gotham
Knight's like, I get it. It's like an edgier title
than Batman.

Speaker 2 (53:18):
Well, they took it. They took it for the game
exactly and the TV show. Yeah, I thought it was funny.
Again Yeah, there's a new TV show too, Like, yeah,
I thought it was funny that talking. Basically, we're like, oh,
we're gonna do this for Gotham Knights. And then when
I was doing my list, I was like, oh, the
Gotham Knight storyline is the number one.

Speaker 1 (53:31):
Well, and this is this is also inspired by like
Shadow of the bat did this for a really long time,
was kind of more of the team up stories. Detective
Comics has been that from time to time as well.
I just think, for my money, Gotham Knights does it
the best. Uh yeah for me.

Speaker 2 (53:48):
The reason why I picked specifically one to twelve is
because it's there's like a little storyline in it called Transference. Yeah,
that's I believe that's what the first collection is called yes,
even though it's like only like part of that, but
it's it's basically answering the question. Like the whole storyline
is does Batman prefer to work alone? And because it
starts off with the crime of two parents dying in

(54:09):
front of their little boy, and the bat family are
all very concerned about whether Bruce should be investigating this
murder or not whether he'll be able to handle it.
So Oracle calls in the Bat family and night Wing
comes into the back. This is the first issue of
God the Knights. Nightwing comes into and he's like, I'm
gonna take the case over from you, and Bruce is
like no. And for the next six issues it's like

(54:29):
Nightwing be like, you ready to give me the.

Speaker 1 (54:31):
Cave and Bat's like no.

Speaker 2 (54:33):
And there's such little beats in this, Like there's one
point where night Wing comes in the Bat cave, Alfred
gives him a sandwich. He eats one of his lovely
cucumber sandwiches and Alfred excuse me. Nightwing wipes his face
with his glove and Alfred goes master Dick. It's like,
how damn you, you know, but it's funny. There's a
great line in this where Alfred says in the storyline

(54:55):
and he goes, oh, nothing ever really changes. He says, Bruce,
Master Bruce is t tendency towards autocracy is like Master
Dick's tendency towards mutiny. Oh interesting, you know, but yes,
I agree with you. Like the whole series is great,
but it's the first I would say, like twenty five
issues are like the good stuff, because then it just
becomes a regular Batman title. But in the beginning it

(55:17):
was very much It's Batman Family. They should have just
called it. I mean, Batman Gotha Knight's a better title,
but this is the bat Family book. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (55:24):
So I did some quick a giggling, and Devin Grayson
is on it until issue thirty two, and then on
thirty three Scott Baty takes over. Scott Beaty also a
great writer. Yes, yes, yes, I also want to shout
out there's a later storyline that I think Devin Grayson
wrote called twenty four to seven, and it's it's basically
the ticking clock episode of mash issue where you see
a day in the life of Batman, and the small

(55:46):
details about what Batman gets up to at that time
are are very interesting. I encourage you if you've never
read it, like at least check out that issue.

Speaker 2 (55:55):
I think, and I could be wrong about this, but
I think in the last couple of years they have
reprinted fine, only the first twelve issues of this.

Speaker 1 (56:02):
Uh So I actually have the answer to that. Okay,
So as of February twenty twenty one, we have the
full Devin Grayson run. So we have two collections that
have up to issue thirty two printed. Nice, so the
good stuff, the good stuff. Yeah, yeah, I'm assuming that

(56:23):
the sales did not do well enough to justify doing
the last version, but it seems also very strange that
we would not have done the last version.

Speaker 2 (56:30):
By the way, listeners, I just want to tell you
if if there is a series out there that Marvel, DC,
Image dark Horse have printed into trade and you know
it's going to take several trades to collect the entire series,
you have to order and pre order the trades as
soon as they announce.

Speaker 1 (56:46):
Because that's how collected editions work. That's how they know.

Speaker 2 (56:48):
And it's one of the reasons like SAMN Mystery Theater
Yea by DC has never been completely collected because it
takes like eight trades to collect the entire series, and
they've never gotten I think past five.

Speaker 1 (57:00):
There were also some sort of weird choices where like
issue thirteen isn't included in the collected editions because it's
in Batman Officer Down. Issues twenty five to thirty one
are collected in Bruce Wayne Murderer.

Speaker 2 (57:10):
They just displayed like put them all in there.

Speaker 1 (57:12):
Yeah, so there are strange they're sort of strange choices
like that being made. But you got them Nights, and
I want to I want to give credit to Joseph Illage,
the editor, because he edited both Gotham Knights and Batman
No Man'slah so one of the big architects and editors
in general don't get enough credit. So you got chut
out to you, Jet all right, number one. Wow, that's great.

(57:33):
Now I read this series because very early in geek
History Lessons History, you encouraged me to read this series.
We got a secondhand copy at the Iliad shout us
to the Iliad in Los Angeles, and that is how
I first read Got Them Knights. Nice, So thank you
Jason's past Jason.

Speaker 2 (57:47):
All right, let's get into the recommended reading. What is
that Ashley that is.

Speaker 1 (57:50):
Where if you go over to Geekistory lesson dot com
slash recommended Reading, we have really handy little widget you
go buy this in the format of your choice. We're
not picky, we're not a judgy, and you can read
anything that we talked about that you're interested in, and
your purchase helps support the Mind University so we can
keep the lights on in the back hep we built
under the school.

Speaker 2 (58:07):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (58:08):
Obviously, goth and Knights will be on there. Everything from
our list will be on there this week.

Speaker 2 (58:11):
Yeah, yeah, I shul put that new there's a new
no Man's Land Omnibus.

Speaker 1 (58:14):
Oh, I know, there you go, and the also rans
will I'll put Robins on there.

Speaker 2 (58:25):
Young Men with a mind for revenge need little encouragement,
They need podcasts, and they need a butler for Today
is the time to discuss the best Alfred Pennyworth stories
for your ghl on Alfred Pennyworth Stories is now in session.
Hello and welcome to Geek History Lesson. I am Jason
Cucumber Sandwiches in the.

Speaker 1 (58:46):
I am Ashley Victoria Robinson. Welcome to your Mind University
because you have stumbled onto the podcast where we take
one character construct or Butler from popular culture and teach
you everything you need to know about them in about
an hour. Jason the opening line, they need podcasts. Yeah,
really sent me.

Speaker 2 (59:05):
It's from Batman Forever. I know it's so, it's from
Batman Forever.

Speaker 1 (59:11):
If you're a troubled teen and we helped you through that,
I'm glad's part of it.

Speaker 2 (59:16):
Troubled times you need you know, if your parents were
killed by two Face in Gotham City, sometimes you need
a podcast. Absolutely, we are talking about the best Alfred
Pennyworth stories. It's we're kind of in a Batman month
here because of Gotham Knights and also season three of Pennyworth. Yes,
the Origin of Batman's Butler or whatever terrible subtitle they

(59:37):
have is slated to premiere on October six on HBO Max.
You know, there's all kinds of hous so we thought
to celebrate that, we of course would give our favorite
Alfred Pennyworth stories. Now we have already done an Alfred
Pennyworth full geek history lesson back.

Speaker 1 (59:54):
In the in like the early early days of three
hundred episodes ago.

Speaker 2 (59:58):
It was GHL one oh nine. We'll hear the full lesson.
On Alfred Penniworth with microphones that probably don't sound as good.
Please go check that out. And in case anybody doesn't
know who Alfred Penniworth is, listeners actually just keeps staring
at inturn Cat brego off camera.

Speaker 1 (01:00:16):
I don't know what is going on. He is a
podcast in his water dish, and I am perplexed by
this behavior.

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
Okay, all right, Ashley. In case anybody doesn't know who
Alfred Penniworth.

Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
Is, you do know who Alfred Pennyworth is.

Speaker 2 (01:00:29):
Well, please explain to our listeners then.

Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
So Batman right, He's got a butler. His name is
Alfred Pennyworth. The most important thing about Alfred is he's
actually Bruce Wayne's father, not bi biologically, but like he's
his dad. He does all the emotional lifting of being
both father and mother to Bruce Wayne. He is the
most unsung and underappreciated member of Batman family, and I'm

(01:00:53):
really excited to see.

Speaker 2 (01:00:54):
What stories we come up with to talk about how
great he is. And just to give some very specific details,
his full name is Alfred Thaddeus Crane Pennyworth. He first
appeared in Batman number sixteen in April nineteen forty three
when he was Alfred Beagle. He was created by Don
Cameron and Bob Kane, and then he later was changed
into Alfred Pennyworth and that was by Bill Finger and

(01:01:15):
Jerry Robinson. Before we get into our full list, Ashley,
I want to talk about what makes Alfred so unique.
Why in every version of Batman do we always get
some version of Alfred? Because that is not the case
for every other hero. I mean, think about it. We

(01:01:37):
just did you know Spider Man in the MCU and
they didn't even show us and Uncle Ben.

Speaker 1 (01:01:43):
I mean same thing with Tony Stark. We don't get
Jervis in the MCU.

Speaker 2 (01:01:47):
That's fair, or you know, with not every version of
Superman do we say.

Speaker 1 (01:01:50):
Ow tweet me. I know Jervis as the name of
the AI. I don't care.

Speaker 2 (01:01:53):
Not every version of Superman do we see Krypton. So
why with every version of Batman always see Alfred?

Speaker 1 (01:02:01):
I actually think there's a direct correlation between how good
a Batman on screen, be that animated or live action adaptation,
is to how good the Alfred is and how good
the relationship, how well the relationship between Bruce and Alfred
is crafted in that story because even if you strip
Batman down to his batmanist Batman parts, where it's just

(01:02:23):
the Batman story, the bat nuts and bolts exactly, Bao
bat Nuts.

Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
That's a great serial title copy, Riky, a great Doult film,
The bat Nuts.

Speaker 1 (01:02:32):
Oh boy, this is marked for everyone because if you
strip Batman down to his component parts, even if you take.

Speaker 2 (01:02:45):
Away slide down the bat pole, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:46):
Exactly, if you take away all of the complexities and
his toys and his bat toys, myriad toys, I can't
do this anymore. You No, you might find some cable
and grappling hooks and some leather and laid eckx. Yeah,

(01:03:10):
inside his quote unquote cave dungeon. There's always Alfred. Alfred
above all else is Batman's only personal relationship who's always represented.
And I think for me personally, versions and adaptations of
Batman that I do not enjoy don't give due respect

(01:03:30):
to Alfred interesting and some of my favorite things to try,
I know, we'll talk about today. Really, if they don't
treat Alfred like a fully fledged character, which often doesn't happen,
and he's very much a supporting character, you understand the
necessity of him and that speaks, I think, to the
value of the character adaptation. But because above all, he's

(01:03:50):
always Batman's family member, He's Batman's dad. He's there even
before Robin comes along. He is paramount. Alfred is paramount.

Speaker 2 (01:03:58):
Actually I don't know if he's ahead of No, he's
not ahead of Robin Robin.

Speaker 1 (01:04:02):
I only mean in terms of if we're doing the chronologue,
not in terms of publication history, but in terms of
the chronological life of Bruce Wayne.

Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
Sorry sorry, sorry, there is first Alfred publication history. Robin
of course, yes.

Speaker 1 (01:04:12):
There's about twenty years and then uh, and then Dick
comes along, Oh yes, yes, yes, or or if we're
going to continue the game, let's move on. I see.

Speaker 2 (01:04:23):
My explansion is very simple. Is because you know, Batman
in a lot of ways is a Sherlock Holmes analog,
and Alfred is the Watson.

Speaker 1 (01:04:31):
You think, so, oh one interesting, Alfred is Watson? All right, now, everybody,
before we get to our list, and we want to
hear your lists over on our social media where is
that Ashley? That is at Facebook dot com slash geekistory Lesson,
on Twitter at GHL podcast, and on Instagram at geek
History lesson.

Speaker 2 (01:04:48):
We just want to let you know that this week's
Geek History is an extra episode on Patreon is we're
going to rank every version of Alfred in other media,
ranked from worst to best. So if you want to
hear our listen what Who's Alfred we think is the best,
come over and listen to that. You can head on
over to patreon dot com slash John and jawii in
where you're gonna hear lots of Michael Caine impressions. And

(01:05:08):
you can also join to get more podcasts like Jason
and Jeremy Join about Justice League, where we review every
episode of Justice League, the animated series, so you'll get
four bonus episodes the GHL extra, you get some Marvel
Club and two episodes at Justice Pod every month. And
I just want to let all our listeners know this
is the final month of Marvel Club.

Speaker 1 (01:05:29):
Over at the Patreon. This is the last chance to
sign up for the special offer and get the Sarah
Louver art print that completes the try image art print
of Doctor Strange Jane Foster Thor and the last one
is Miles Morales Spidey put him side to side. It
makes one big image. So if you sign up on
the Patreon only in the month of October. At Marvel Club,

(01:05:50):
it's the only way to get that image and to
complete that image. And of course if you're a level
above Marvel Club you get that too. So it's all good.
So come and check it out.

Speaker 2 (01:05:58):
All the fun at patreon dot com. Last job on
this jwi in and I want to thank all the
super friends that support us over there.

Speaker 1 (01:06:05):
I just want to say, Jason is a really good
Michael Caine impression, so you definitely want to come over
and hear it.

Speaker 2 (01:06:08):
Sure, Okay, Ashley, is what is your number five? And
if you can a vamp for a little bit longer
than that, because I didn't write down the.

Speaker 1 (01:06:20):
Title of my number five, Yes, somehow I got.

Speaker 2 (01:06:23):
Deleted, So Ashley, will you please tell us your number five?

Speaker 1 (01:06:29):
So my number five is a story that I really like,
but it is an alternate version of Alfred, so I
didn't feel comfortable putting it higher on my list than
number five. And that is Batman Earth one. I almost
said you that that's a second, like a second lesson
recent memory that you've put Batman Earth one on there.

Speaker 2 (01:06:51):
Yeah, I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:06:51):
Batman Earth one is really good. Batman Earth one pause
its that what of Alfred was not a stuffy older
man but a harder older man. What if instead of
Michael Caine we had James Bond as Batman's butler Koom
nasally Sean Connor, Yeah, adopted father figure. He is bald,

(01:07:16):
he is buff, and he is hard and I mean
that probably physically and emotionally as well. He is a
colleague of Bruce's parents and becomes guardian to Bruce Wayne
when his parents die. And he is not the soft version.
No matter how hard Batman becomes in the comics and

(01:07:38):
almost all of his origin stories, Alfred is there to
be like mosta Wayne, look after your feelings? Musta Wayne?

Speaker 2 (01:07:45):
Do you really need to push yourself this hot? And
this version.

Speaker 1 (01:07:47):
Of Alfred is like hey kid, rub some dirted in
but in a British accent. The look of this character
that we see introduced here is lifted directly for be
where the Batman, which came out not long I believe
around the same time as the second volume, pretty close
to this. Yeah, and I just like the exploration of
some of Alfred's ret cond skills on display from Jump,

(01:08:11):
so it is retcond later and I'm sure in some
stories that we're going to touch on that Alfred is
secret service, or that Alfred is a surgeon, or that
Alfred has some kind of martial arts training, and this
very much leans into this. And also this version of
Alfred also went on to directly influence Pennyworth, which is
which is coming out right now, which is very much
Tenny the Batman and the Batman and a lot of

(01:08:34):
other contemporary versions of Alfred. Reading the first volume when
it came out in twenty twelve, it was really cool.
This was an interesting reinvention of this character, and for
my mind, when I think about Alfred across comics publication history,
this is one of the first times the character got
a really major ret con, because even though we had

(01:08:55):
crises upon crises upon crises, events upon events upon events,
deaths upon death upon deaths, up to this point, Alfred
was fairly consistent in both his appearance and his portrayal,
both on panel and on screen. And I just thought
this was such a fun upgrade, and obviously everybody else
thought too, because this is slowly creeping over to become

(01:09:15):
the defining Alfred, but it became to life in these
pages and what I also admire about Jeff John's writing here.

Speaker 2 (01:09:24):
Is when when Jeff Johns is on, he is.

Speaker 1 (01:09:27):
Really on, and he does a good job at proving
that this character is hard and is a badass. But
there's a lot of love for Bruce here, and that
is a hard thing to execute well, and for me,
it explains how Bruce goes on to act as a
father to his adopted children later on. So that's my
number five Batman Earth one, volume one, But also there's
only three volumes. There's not that much of it if

(01:09:48):
you want to read it at all. Jason, Uh huh,
what is your number five?

Speaker 2 (01:09:54):
My number five is from writer Alan Grant and artist
Brett Blevins. It's Batman Shoutout of the Bat Volume one,
number thirty one. I see Batman Shout Out of the
Bat is an issue that takes place in the middle
of an event that I love called zero Hour, which
is the actual true sequel to Crisis and infinitoris. I agree,

(01:10:14):
even though there are multiple other k crisis calling crisis
or final crisis or infinite crisis or crisis on crisis
on Crisis of Butler's whatever you want to call on
Infinitor Butler.

Speaker 1 (01:10:26):
Where's Butler? Crisis man?

Speaker 2 (01:10:28):
I read it.

Speaker 1 (01:10:29):
So Zero Hour was the ten year anniversary, and through that.

Speaker 2 (01:10:32):
It was like a lot of stuff from the Golden
Age and the Silver Age of DC Comics was interacting
with our quote unquote modern age of courses around nineteen
eighty Yeah, Badman and Robin Tim drag of Force, return
Master Robin. They returned to the bat Cave, and inside
the bat Cave they see Alfred. Hey, Alfred, Yes, but

(01:10:53):
his name is Alfred Beaker. He's at he's mad, and
who talks kind of like these you know, Alfred, I'm Alfred.

Speaker 1 (01:11:01):
I am Alfred Master, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:11:04):
Not my Alfred. So he, of course was the original Alfred,
and that's what Alfred was in the Golden Age. He
was an overweight, balding man who was a klutz and
his name was Alfred Beagle. And now during this time
in modern continuity, this was the period of time after
Nightfall and Night Quest, when Alfred had said, Bruce, I

(01:11:24):
am done with you. You broke your back and then
you're still gonna be Batman.

Speaker 1 (01:11:29):
I don't want to work for you. I can't be
party to this, and so he leaves and luckily you know,
a year or two later Nightleen goes over.

Speaker 2 (01:11:36):
And goes, Alfred, you're my second dad, please come back,
and he's like, all right, I win. But this had
not happen yet. So this is very much an adventure
of the modern Batman and Robin teaming up with the
original Alfred Alfred Beagle. During the storyline Batman and Robin,
they tracked down a grip of hypnotists who are hypnotizing
criminals into giving them their loop. And although the dynamic

(01:11:58):
duo defeat all the hypnoie thugs, they are also injected
with the hypnotic serum themselves, and the criminals intend to
make Batman and Robin jump off the top of a
building to kill themselves. And one thing that a lot
of people need to know about Alfred Beagle, you see,
is part of the reason why they got rid of
Alfred Beagle, was because Alfred Beagle was a joke. Alfred

(01:12:20):
Beagle wanted to fright crime with Batman and Robin. Yes
he was too, and so this Alfred Beagle had followed
Batman and Robin and because of that, his inadvertent clumsiness
distracts the criminals along long enough so that Batman is
able to shake the effects of the serum and he's

(01:12:40):
able to free himself and Tim Drake. So this Alfred
Beagle saves them and as he begins to disappear back
into the timeline, he bids the Phroes farewell. This is
an old favorite of mine. The cover is amazing because
it's a perfect example of a modern cover aping a

(01:13:01):
classic cover, and it plays along with the nice Zero
Hour theme of random mist time. Dominally's you know it's
it's it's funny because again, this is a storyline of
the entire story is basically Bruce and Tim saying, man,
I miss our our Alfred Pennyworth. Yeah, really, I mean
we'll take if you got to make us some cucumber

(01:13:23):
subject sandwiches, mister Beagle, you can, but like are Pennyworth is?

Speaker 1 (01:13:26):
Really that's the guy we really.

Speaker 2 (01:13:28):
Miss And I have always remembered this as an Alfred story.
This is one of my favorite Zero Hour storylines. And
again the cover is fantastic. Actually, may I'm you know
so we can share that cover on our career. But
Batman Shadow of the bat Volume one, number thirty one,
starring Alfred Beagle, the original Alfred is my number five, Alfred.

Speaker 1 (01:13:50):
It's so funny because every time you say Alfred Beagle,
I just imagined Snoopy. Alfred the most prominent beagle in all.

Speaker 2 (01:13:57):
Snoopy has more faculties than Alfred Beagle.

Speaker 1 (01:14:00):
You're probably right. I also meant to say, I have
this in my notes about Batman. You're one if you
are particularly fond of the meme where Batman is slapping Robin,
Alfred slaps Persuain in that one. So that's that's satisfying. Okay, yeah,
all right, Ashley, what's your number four?

Speaker 2 (01:14:15):
My number four?

Speaker 1 (01:14:17):
I didn't do this in our last list, so I
had to do it in this list. Is when I
think Jason's gonna call a cheat. Okay, let's see. When
I think of Alfred Pennyworth, I think of one very
specific moment, and it is the draw you a bath gag.
So I am saying Batman the animated series is my

(01:14:39):
number four choice.

Speaker 2 (01:14:44):
I don't know if we can allow this, Ashley. We
didn't say other media. You didn't specify, not other media,
not best Alfred comics.

Speaker 1 (01:14:53):
I mean, this is the best Alfred story.

Speaker 2 (01:14:56):
I will allow it, but I think this is we
all listen listeners have done over four hundred episodes.

Speaker 1 (01:15:01):
We know what we mean when we say stories. You know, uh,
I guess this, But this, for me is the definitive.
This is Alfred. This is the definitive Alfred scene, This
is the this is the most memable Alfred. This is
the driest, funniest Alfred that we've ever had.

Speaker 2 (01:15:21):
There's a lot of arguing Alfred across the entirety of Batman,
the animated series. I am, I think that's quite a stress. Well,
I'm doing it. Okay, that's not really a story that's
like best Alfred's series.

Speaker 1 (01:15:36):
Okay, I will say, because you know, Jason and I
do research. We look at a lot of other lists
and compilations and things like that. A lot of people
had all of Gotham on their list. Alfred is good
in Gotham, so I felt, Jean pertwe I felt, I
was like, yeah, related to one of the doctors. I
believe he's the son of the third Doctor. Yes, and
his betrayals also based on the very much the Alfred

(01:15:57):
of Earth one. But Mattman the animated series Alfred, I
think did more to popularize and put Alfred in the
larger lexicon than any other version of Alfred that we've
ever seen before Michael Caine came along. And I think
this is the character for contemporary readers that instilled a
lot of the humor into Alfred in the dry wit

(01:16:18):
versus the more bumbling portrayals that you're talking about deriving
from the Alfred Beagle version. And also that Man the
Animated series version of Alfred never outsteps his bounds. He's
never interested in going out in the field or becoming
a superhero, which is always kind of something that Batman's
stories inevitably get around to trying to touch on. And

(01:16:41):
Batman the Animated Series all he does is execute his
job to the best of his abilities. But he won't
tell you that you're a dumb dumb to your face.
He'll tell you behind your back. I also think this
is the funniest version of Alfred that we've ever had,
and it's the version that continues to contribute to meme
content on the Internet. And it's honestly, my friends, it's

(01:17:02):
very hard to find good Alfred story.

Speaker 2 (01:17:04):
No, it's not very hard to find good disagree.

Speaker 1 (01:17:07):
And I think that Batman the Animated Series is the
gift that gives again and again and again and again.
I'lfred even get some tear jerker moments in the Batman
the Animated series. So that is why that is my
number four choice. Best offers doors all of Batman the
Animated sares you're one to three have got to be amazing.
If they all beat the entirety of Batman the Animated

(01:17:27):
I mean I think they are Okay, that is a
very high barred across my list. It's an opinion. It
can't be wrong. That's fair.

Speaker 2 (01:17:35):
But like, I mean like because at this point I
could put the Dark Knight trilogy on my list than
like you could if you wanted to.

Speaker 1 (01:17:41):
I mean, I definitely would have allowed that.

Speaker 2 (01:17:43):
Oh boy, all right, what.

Speaker 1 (01:17:45):
Is your number four? Jason?

Speaker 2 (01:17:47):
Well, all the rest of the mine are definitely comic stories.
So my number four is Batman. I am Gotham because
there is a gag a lot of Batman stories where Alfred,
you know, then this is the classic Alfred Pennyworth the Butler,

(01:18:08):
where he has to go out and save Batman's life,
and usually he puts on a Batman costume or some
versions have him wear basically a butler outfit with a
hat and he wears a Domino mask, which you know,
I'm not opposed to, but I kind of feel it
gives away his identity eating anyways, but this is a

(01:18:30):
story where Batman is confronting basically two superpowered, mentally unstable heroes,
and they are trouncing Batman pretty good. So Alfred Pennyworth
puts on the batsuit or at least the cow over
his face and gets behind the seat of the Batmobile.

(01:18:52):
He races into Gotham City and he unleashes the full
capabilities of the Batmobile against him. It's a sort of
tactic that requires a lot of automotive skill, but it
also proves that Alfred is a good driver, because that's
the main function of his job. He drives that car around,
he drives the car that has Bruce Wayne in. But
it actually starts out with a really good way because

(01:19:15):
like he basically runs this hero known as Gotham over
and you know, it's we don't really get to see
Alfred in many heroic places. I think it has become
a thing that has become more and more recently where
you would see Alfred as a full on hero, and
I think this is a great way to do it,
where I think Alfred would be a hero behind the

(01:19:37):
seat of the batmobile or behind the seat of the batplane.
But I don't really buy Alfred going out and like
punching people in the face. I don't think he does that.
I do believe the idea that Alfred was a soldier.
That is my preferred Alfred. But if you go read this,
it's very funny to see Alfred in a batsuit, or
at least in a bat cow wearing a suit underneath,

(01:20:00):
using the powers of the batmobile to take down this
hero Gotham, and I will say, like he does actually
legitimately save Bruce Wayne in the storyline, so I think
it is a great Alfred moment. There's a lot of
Alphred moments where it's just Alfred using a shotgun to
save his young son, but this is the one I

(01:20:21):
allowed myself one of those moments in this list where
you know, Alfred's gonna dress up like a batman and
do a say the thing. Yeah, I will say, I
do have another moment in this list or another story
where he does dress up as a batman, but it's
for a more heartwarming reason than it is.

Speaker 1 (01:20:35):
Okay, this is the h This is.

Speaker 2 (01:20:37):
The Alfred being a badass moment that I allowed in
my list.

Speaker 1 (01:20:41):
Interesting, I don't know if I have any of those
on the.

Speaker 2 (01:20:43):
List, So that is my it is. It specifically happens
in Batman number five, but it's in the Batman I
Am Gotham storyline by Tom King.

Speaker 1 (01:20:50):
Yeah, I like I Am Gotham as sorry, I.

Speaker 2 (01:20:52):
Do too, I do too. So that is my number four.
All right, Ashley, Now it is time to get to
our number are three choices of best Alfred stories? Okay, Ashley,
what is your number three best Alfred story? My number

(01:21:16):
three best Alfred story is a Nightwing story.

Speaker 1 (01:21:23):
Yay, it's my I think it's my only single issue
on here, and it is Nightwing number one oh six.
If you're familiar with this cover. It's got the discoing.
It's part of night Wing year one and he's kind
of jumping at the camera and he's kicking out. It

(01:21:43):
has a lot to do with doctor Leslie Tompkins in
sort of the main narrative. What's fun about it is
Alfred disguises himself as two Face and he goes under
cover and he does a lot of reconnaissance for the
bat Family at the time, but what's really important is
this is the costume. This is the issue where the
disco Wing costume debuts. And what's important about this is

(01:22:06):
that Alfred made this costume for Dick Grayson and it
kind of sets this precedent within the Batman family that
whenever Dick gets a new costume, Alfred makes it. It's
been it's been dropped a lot since the early aughts.
What's been dropped a lot, this tradition of Alfred making
the costumes. But that's that's okay, just because he's had

(01:22:31):
a lot of costumes since then. But I really like
the idea that when it is time for night Wing
to grow up, and this is a ret con of course,
that Alfred is the one who designs this costume, and
he designs a lot of the future versions of the
night Wing costume.

Speaker 2 (01:22:47):
The line in the storyline something like where he was like,
night Wing's original costume has like black and blue, and
you learned that that Alfred is the one that put
the yellow stripes in exactly it. He was like, oh,
I think it's a it's a shame it doesn't have
the row in yellow.

Speaker 1 (01:23:00):
That's right, or something like that. And I like that
and It's one of the things, like I'm a big
fan of the nineties blue stripe costume, I.

Speaker 2 (01:23:07):
Think, which Alfred also makes. I think the simpler the costume.

Speaker 1 (01:23:11):
The better.

Speaker 2 (01:23:12):
I like the disco wing suit though, but I like the.

Speaker 1 (01:23:15):
Discoing suit too. But I do think there is something
missing in the idea, that there's not a nod to
the Robin in it. But I also understand that is
the point of the night wing costume he grows up,
is that it is Dick stepping out of that shadow
colors now and physically redefining himself as an adult. I
just think it's so special that Alfred and you can

(01:23:35):
look at Alfred as either Dick's like another surrogate father
or a grandfather.

Speaker 2 (01:23:41):
I always kind of like to look at him as
a grandfather. I'm you know, I'm going to say, this
is going to it. This sounds strange. I almost see
Alfred as his mom is mom, Yeah, yeah, because well
he's the one who's emotionally available.

Speaker 1 (01:23:51):
Yeah. It's certainly conversion to Bruce. So this is an
issue that, like, on its surface, is Alfred being a badass.
As Jason and was talking about Alfred going out in
them streets doing what a vigilante in Gotham does, taking
up a trope that we've seen all members of the
bat Family take up, where you pretend to be one

(01:24:12):
of the members of the criminal gang, and then we
reveal like halfway through that it's not actually you in
this big fighting fighting, But this emotional moment, this, to me,
is when Alfred is at his best. Is when Alfred
cracks the core of who the Batman family is and
Dick Grayson. Dick Grayson is the populist heart of the
Batman family, but Alfred, I think is actually the heart

(01:24:33):
of the Batman family because he is the one that
everybody turns to when they need someone the most. He's
the non betrayer in a lot of ways. You said
something when you were doing your Jason Read's comics that
when Alfred cries, everyone cries, or when Alfred cries, the
bat family cries, and that has stuck with me for

(01:24:54):
years and years and years and years, and I think
that at night we want to six really illustrate that
and a really really beautiful way. It's growth for Alfred
and its growth for Dick, and Alfred doesn't get a
ton of character development. Most supporting characters don't, but also
because Alfred has to remain stalwart in order to serve
his purpose within the larger bat family. So I mean,

(01:25:15):
all of night Wing Year one is gold, but this
specific issue is a really really important Alfred issue and
I just loved so much and so I had to
include it at my list. So that's my number three.
Even though it's a retcon, it's a really really good ratcon. Jason,
what is your number three best? The Alfred story mine
is a one shot.

Speaker 2 (01:25:36):
It is called Batman Gotham Adventures Number sixteen by Scott
Peterson and Craig Rousseau. This is the tie in to
Batman and the anime series, but specifically the fourth season
of Batman the animated series, because previously DC had Batman Adventures,
then they had Batman and Robin Adventures, then they had
Batman Gotham Adventures because the title sold really well and

(01:25:59):
they're all one shot, amazing stories drawn in the style
of that Bruce tim artwork. Now, the basic story of
this is this is another Alfred being a badass story,
but it's Alfred being a badass with his mindoo. So
the basics synopsis is Alfred Pennywort's been kidnapped, but Batman
doesn't seem that concerned, and knight Wing, Batgirl, and Robin,

(01:26:23):
who are trying to find Alfred, are wondering constantly why
Batman doesn't seem that bothered about Alfred being kidnapped. So
this takes the trope of Alfred being captured and it
puts it on its head. So basically the storyline is
Alfred is kidnapped off camera at the beginning of the
story by a group of others, and he gets the
kidnappers to let the other people go. He's in a

(01:26:44):
group and he gets the kidnappers to let the other
people go by basically being like mister Wayne pretends to
simply be a sophisticated playboy without a care in the world,
but the reality is far far different. His life would
forever change with this secret to get out, and the
kidnappers suddenly like, oh, what does this butler have on
Bruce Wayne's treasure? That must be the other thing like, okay,

(01:27:06):
we'll let the other people go, So he gets the
other people to go. Meanli We cut back to knight
Wing and Robin and Backer and they're freaking out. They're
really worried. They're they're saying to themselves, they're gonna kill Alfred.
We've got to find Alfred. What is gonna happen? And
as we cut back, you know, we come back several
times to Alfred tied to this chair and the kidnambers

(01:27:27):
being like, I don't know what you're gonna tell us,
Like you better tell us, come on, man, and Alfred
keeps telling them other things and other things, and we
keep cutting back to night Wing and Robin and Backrel
freaking out like, oh, Alfred's not in this building. Alfred's
not in this building. Alfred, We're not gonna find Alfred.
Finally we get to the climax. We cut back to
Alfred and the kidnappers are saying, if this secret isn't

(01:27:47):
all it's cracked up to be, you've got one minute
to live, and Alfred goes, oh, it's fine, come close.
I'll tell you this secret, and he says the secret
about Bruce Wayne is that Bruce always cries when Krakey
Ventures is over. Krockey Adventures is a sitcom animated series
that it's within the animated version of Batman animated series.

(01:28:09):
And because the Thief came close Alfred is able to
punch the guy and knock him out because Alfred was
stalling time so they could pick his cuffs. So Night Wing, Batgirl,
and Robin crash in the window, and when they do,
the thieves are all cuffed to the chairs and Alfred

(01:28:29):
is sitting there at the table playing solitaire, and Batman
finally shows up, and Alfred says, I've already been such
a nuisance, so I apologize, and Batman says, not to me,
but perhaps to your rescuers, although I doubt they had
to do much, not if you handled this the last
way you did the last twenty seven times you've been kidnapped.

Speaker 1 (01:28:54):
And only twenty seven times.

Speaker 2 (01:28:56):
And Alfred simply walks out and goes Bruce Wayne's butler
must always be ready for anything. So my saviors, we're
actually quite helpful. It is not the fault that my
kidnappers were once again stupendously incompetent. So I love this
idea that, of course Alfred gets kidnapping Batman comic books
all the time. But I love the idea that the

(01:29:18):
kids of the bat family, as were talking about last week,
we're so worried about their dad, and Batman is like, no, no, no, no, Alfred.
I'm not worried about him at all. We can handle
other crime in the city. That's why I think this
is easily and it's a one shot. It's brilliant and
one issue. In twenty two pages, we learn everything we
need to learn about Alfred. And not only is it

(01:29:39):
a great Alfred story, not only does it tell you
everything about the character, but it's so enjoyable by taking
a trope that we assume and twisting on its head.
So that's why Batman got them Advengers number sixteen. By
the way Batman got them Avenger's number sixteen was published.
There is an Alfred collection, there's like a best Alfred Stories.
Batman got them Invasures. Number sixteen is in that collection.

(01:30:00):
There you go, So, there you go. That is my
number three, Ashley, what's your number two? Is it better
than that?

Speaker 1 (01:30:08):
The entirety of Batman the animet My number two is
actually something that was also on my list last week.

Speaker 4 (01:30:16):
Done dun Dunn?

Speaker 2 (01:30:18):
Well, okay, and that I don't remember any specific Glford stories.

Speaker 1 (01:30:23):
That's okay. I gotta pull another red alert on you. No,
I don't think so something that I think Alfred is
very good at but he's not given a ton of
credit for is his ability to foster talent. Alfred often
like for example, when Tim Drake comes onto the scene
and breaks into Bruce Wayne's house and demands to be

(01:30:45):
made Robin. Alfred is often the one who believes in
a lot of the characters who become bat Family characters
and sees their potential before Bruce does, or before Bruce
is willing to admit that, and Dick to a lesser extent,
depending on how old at the time DC editorial has

(01:31:05):
decided that he's going to be. So that's why I
think Alfred has a really shining moment in We Are Robin,
because we have I think at one point seven characters
led by Duke Thomas, who are all taking up the
mantle of Robin and the Batman family, and they are
not doing.

Speaker 2 (01:31:24):
A good job. I believed during this time Bruce Wayne
is thought to be dead the.

Speaker 1 (01:31:28):
Time he is thought to be dead, yes, And as
a result, Dick and Jason and Tim and Damien are
not at all warm at what these characters are doing
because they think it's too dangerous, which is like hilarious
because they're like the same age as Tim at the time. Granted, Duke, Daxondre, Rico,
Isabella at all like have a lot less training, they

(01:31:49):
have no guidance, and Alfred really quickly understands that all
they need is a little push in the right direction
and they can be just as valuable, just as skilled,
and just as useful to the like I guess, the organization,
if you want to take that macrocosmic view, or the
bat family as anybody else. He's the first and only
character who believes in them until the events of Robin
warre kind of like force because the Court of Appills

(01:32:10):
step in force the rest of the boys and girls
to embrace Duke and his troop. And like I said
in last week's episode, it's not it's played as a mystery,
it's not really a mystery that it's Alfred who's the
one who is really supplying them with sort of the
basic information that they need to get started. But for
Alfred to go against Bruce, or for Alfred to go

(01:32:30):
against Dick, it says a lot about him because he
doesn't do that very often. Alfred is the character who
if he is insulted, or if he is questioned, or
if he's pushed aside, he will demure in that sort
of English way, he will cast his gaze downward, he'll
leave the room.

Speaker 2 (01:32:48):
He'll he'll leave a trite.

Speaker 1 (01:32:49):
Comment if this is Batman, the animated series, and he'll
move on from there. And we are Robin. He is
taking actionable steps to make sure that more of Gotham
is able to look after itself than just the people
who happen to live under its roof. And I really
admire this because on the surface, it's an active defiance
and it's an active convenience because we have to in

(01:33:10):
some way make sure that all of these characters don't die,
and we have to tell the audience that they are
good enough to at least deserve the basic respect of
the rest of the Bat Family. But Alfred legitimizes them
in this really, really real way, and he keeps a
whole bunch of them from dying. And then ultimately he's
the one directly responsible for ushering Duke into the Bat family.
And if we're still going by that Scott Snyder issue,

(01:33:32):
he is embracing the future Robin before anybody else in
the whole Bat family is willing to. And I think
that's us a lot about his instincts, which obviously have
been honed for a long time since Bruce Wayne came
into his life. So we are Robin once again making
it onto my list as I think an all time
great Alfred story even though he's not on panel I
think until the third or fourth issue, but his presence

(01:33:53):
is very much felt throughout. So, Jason, what is your number? Two?

Speaker 2 (01:33:59):
Two? Is going to need some help from you, miss
Ashley of your French roots. Wait now I look this
name up, but I'm going to ask you on the
air how to pronounce it. It is a French name,
M L L E.

Speaker 1 (01:34:15):
Oh it's okay, So that is the abbreviate, you know
how like m R asked a short for missus.

Speaker 2 (01:34:19):
Yes, Mademoiselle, Ah, Mademoiselle. Okay, thank you, thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (01:34:24):
Welcome.

Speaker 2 (01:34:25):
So my number two is detective comics number five oh
one and five oh two. Who shot Mademoiselle Marie? Yeah,
I thought it was a name. I thought it was
her first name. So there you go. I think that
is a perfectly reasonable jump to have made.

Speaker 1 (01:34:39):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:34:39):
It was written by Jerry Conway, penciled by Don Newton,
inked by Dan Atkins and so on. This is a
two part storyline. This is also the very famous storyline
to introduce Julia Pennyworth. I like Julia now. This all
starts where Bruce Wayne notices that Alfred Pennyworth has got

(01:35:00):
some letters from France. It's pretty upset and he doesn't
pay much attention to it until he comes home from
his daily patrol and finds that Alfred is gone. Batman
reads the contents of the letter and learns that Alfred
has been summoned to Paris to solve a murder mystery,
basically the murder of Mademoiselle Marie. So eventually in the

(01:35:21):
course of the story, this lady named Julia Remarque and
her friends have captured Batman and they've tied up Batman
because of courses of the Bronze Age, and they are
there because they're saying Alfred Pennyworth murdered Marie. We know
he did it, and the people listen to the testimony
of Julia. This is very much a kangaroo court as well,

(01:35:44):
because Marie disappeared and the girl Julie, claims that Marie
was shot by an unknown person and that afterwards she
remained in a catatonic state and tell her death, muttering
the name over and over and over. Alfred now Marie eventually,
of course, before that, gave birth and whatever, and the
baby was named Julia and was giving through Jacquez Remac,

(01:36:06):
a friend of Marie, and he looked over as Julia
was his own daughter. Now, of course, during the course
of the storyline, I don't want to tell you all
the elements of it, Batman solves the murder and eventually
finds that Alfred is innocent. But the mystery is that
Julia keeps saying to herself, why did my mother kept
calling for Alfred?

Speaker 4 (01:36:25):
Why?

Speaker 2 (01:36:26):
And in the final and this is to me is
why it comes into the number two spot because there
is a scene where Alfred is talking to Jacques and
he says, I'm fine to help you. I'm fine to
keep giving you money on the condition that Julia must

(01:36:48):
never know who I am and what my relationship to
Marie is. You know, how can I ever tell Julia,
because I don't want to disrupt her life? How can
I tell her how much I've loved her? From afar?
And Jacques says, some perhaps you are right to my friend.
Someday I hope you will know a change on mind?
Why why is the Italian.

Speaker 1 (01:37:10):
In the caption box by the amazing Jerry Conway. Uh
has all these silent images, and it says Alfred Pennyworth
smiles wistfully and gently shakes his head, watching Jacques remarc
return to Julia's side. Alfred brushes a hand across a cheek,
suddenly wet. But it's only the rain that miss his eyes,
he tells himself, only the rain as he gets on

(01:37:33):
the plane, and it ends with a shot of Julia
looking back at Alfred of wondering who is this man?
I know that Mademoiselle Marie is meant when she's dying
to be like hell for it's because she loves him,
I know. But can you imagine if she was just
like Alfred? Alfred Alfred, I'm just like really fast over
you get I don't find that very funny?

Speaker 2 (01:37:52):
Well, it's funny and more most modern pop culture. Julia
would be like, is that the name of your sled?

Speaker 1 (01:37:57):
Anyways?

Speaker 2 (01:37:57):
El l But there, this is very much a story
of its time, and also I think it's very much
I'm going to say a more intelligent way to tell
this story because it doesn't flat out and tell you
that Alfred is her father.

Speaker 1 (01:38:15):
Yeah, they do that later, they explicitly tell you later. Yes,
but this story is later the story that details are
all there. You understand, you're like, oh, Alfred is paying
for this girl, but there's nowhere in this story is
there a scene where Alfred's like, I am your father.
They also imply that Alfred is only mostly sure that
this is his daughter. And it's very interesting when you

(01:38:37):
look at it through the lens of how he, for
all intents and purposes except legally adopts Bruce Wayne, like
he just places a lot of his fatherly emotions onto
Bruce and the rest of the back kids.

Speaker 2 (01:38:50):
But that it's just it's a beautiful like this is
to me. And also it's something that would only happen
in the seventies and eighties. And again, I do I
just think the storytelling is better than now. Is the
idea of like, we know that Alfred has a daughter
out there, but we're not going to introduce her into
the bad family.

Speaker 1 (01:39:06):
Well we will in about twenty to upset the Apple party.
She's out there, and that's all we need to know.
I just think a lot of modern franchises could learn
from this example, because it's a way to have your
cake and eat it too, without like completely destroying what
makes the character great. And I'm not saying that Alfred
being a biological father destroys the character. I'm just saying

(01:39:26):
I think it's a more subtle and more entertaining and
more eloquent way to tell this story by leaving it
up to the reader the line of again, they're not
even telling us that he's crying.

Speaker 2 (01:39:38):
They're telling us that it's the rain. It's only the rain.

Speaker 1 (01:39:42):
Yeah, well, it's also be used in the seventies and
eighties men couldn't have emotions. Well, but it's to me,
it's a beautiful bit of writing. It's eloquent. It's so eloquent,
and it's so beautiful, and that is why it is
my number two. All right now, Ashley, it is time
to get to our number one choice, yep of the
best Alfred stories. Okay, Ashley, we are here, the number

(01:40:07):
one best Alfred Pennyworth stories. And no, you cannot say
all three seasons of Pennyworth.

Speaker 2 (01:40:14):
I was gonna sail three seasons of pennywork.

Speaker 1 (01:40:17):
Choice, but he can't say it. First of all, before
I tell you what it is, I want to drag
DC Comics a little bit for this. Y'all need to
fix your SEO because I had to ask Jason what
this was called because I couldn't remember the title. And
I couldn't remember the title of this book. I haven't
read it in eight years from me number one choice,
number one choice. I couldn't google it from events in

(01:40:37):
the plot. So you need to like get much better
at making your Alfred plots Google a bowl, Ashley.

Speaker 2 (01:40:44):
I'm gonna say, I don't know if this story. I
know what your number one is. I don't know if
this story has been reprinted in anything recently.

Speaker 1 (01:40:54):
It is available digitally, okay, but I also think I
this you better tell.

Speaker 2 (01:41:00):
The listeners we're talking, you know, they need to know
what we're talking about.

Speaker 1 (01:41:02):
I also will say the reason that I said earlier
that it was hard to come up with this list
is because very little of the descriptions of these issues
have the name Alfred in them. You have to know
the subplots, and none of people are writing best Alfred
story So like, come on, comic journalists, like get on.
My number one is night Wing Cole and Alfred's Return, which,
like my number one choice last week, is a book

(01:41:25):
that Jason recommended to me, recommended that.

Speaker 2 (01:41:27):
I really it's about the first time that Alfred left.
It is is what batman about five or six times
now since then? You know what though, I mean, this
was the first time that he did it.

Speaker 1 (01:41:36):
You know, if again, if our Batman is forty seven
forty eight, then that means that Alfred has been with
him for about forty years.

Speaker 2 (01:41:43):
Well, Alfred has to be at least sixty five, you know,
the man could use a gd vacation. Alfred should retire, Yes,
So he goes to the Bahamas, which is Trey James
bond of him. Oh, yes, to take a vacation.

Speaker 1 (01:41:57):
Then he goes on an antarctric cruise, which is very
a man over sixty five, very wider thing of him
to do wider, goes to on an answer to cruise.

Speaker 2 (01:42:06):
He goes to Alaska and his retirement years. That is
literally the opposite of the antargis icy place on a boat.
Miss lady who selected the animated series the entirety number four,
your number four.

Speaker 1 (01:42:19):
I should have just made it the meme of him
being like, I'll draw you about justice. Your explainer canceled
the podcast. This also, like Your Number two, is a
very romantic, wistful portrayal of Alfred, because the story opened
on Alfred waiting outside of a theater in London with

(01:42:39):
some flowers for his ex fiancee, not Mademoiselle Marie, but Joanna.
And this is where you learned for the first time
that Alfred used to be an actor, which is in
the Royal Shakespeare Company. Yes, which is a big deal.
Which is on the one hand, just such a tropey

(01:43:01):
thing to do to make the brit a Shakespeare actor,
like really like use a little bit more imagination, I
completely However, However, on the other hand, it's a really
interesting and smart choice because it means that Alfred this

(01:43:22):
is why he is good at stealth and impersonations and
a lot of the skills that we have seen him
execute very subtly as I mean Batman's butler, yes, but
as Batman's entire support system this aside from his service
in the marginally secret service of the UK Government, explains

(01:43:43):
where a lot of these skills come from. There's a
specific moment in the story where he lets you know
that he learned how to sew and Stitch, And when
you think about all the times he's redesigned night Wings costume,
all the times he's repared the bat costume, all the
times he's sown stick, and obviously he has some medical
training from his time as a spy. Little details like

(01:44:04):
that it reveals it goes from being the really obvious,
lazy American choice to a really smart, subtle choice. And
it reveals a little bit more of Alfred's romantic nature.
And I mean romantic not only in his longing for
Joanna and his question of like is he the father
of Joanna's son Derek, but his romantic nature in the

(01:44:25):
sense that, like he's willing to support vigilantes and superheroes,
he's willing to take in orphans off the street. Everything
that you love about Alfred is fostered and brought to
light and explored in a really interesting way in Alfred's
return Blow for blow. This is one of the first
time he gets anything like character development up to this
point in his history. Like it starts with the series
that Jason was just talking about in the eighties, This

(01:44:45):
is a story in the early nineties. This was when
we started to let Alfred be a real person. For
the first time, which directly bleeds into what I love
about him in Batman the animated series, because obviously that
was influenced by making him deeper and more interesting. This also,
this story really explores his relationship with Dick Grayson, because
night Wing comes from America to find him in London

(01:45:07):
and to beg him to come back.

Speaker 2 (01:45:10):
Yeah, and again, the story takes place during the time
period from Mine number five they zero hour, Yes exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:45:18):
There's a lot of great stories about how Batman needs
a Robin. Tim Drake has a lot of great monologues
about that as he's becoming Robin for the first time.
This is a great thesis on why Batman needs an
Alfred and why the entire Batman family needs Alfred. It
is confirmed that Derek is not his son, just if
anyone was familiar with that. It's a trick he's sort

(01:45:42):
of led to believe, and he is absolutely willing to
look after this little boy. He's very sad so then
that that's not the case. But it's also a great
mirror storyline to him realizing that Dick Grayson, this young
man who followed him across the world, is one of
his real children and it's the person that he needs
to go back to. So he goes back do Bruce
and Dick, his sons. And there's a great quote, men

(01:46:03):
whose emotions serve their reasons is a quote that he
uses to describe Bruce and Dick. But that's also who
Alfred is too, so for me, like I said, I
read the story seven or eight years ago, I've never
I've never read a better Alfred story. This is my favorite,
like hands down, best Alfred story ever.

Speaker 2 (01:46:20):
Think it might be collected in the night Wing volume one.

Speaker 1 (01:46:23):
It is, there is an old, old collection of this,
but these have been available digitally as well for a
long long time. So again, thank you Jason for putting
this in my hands. So now I gotta ask, what's
your number one?

Speaker 2 (01:46:37):
My number one is the most recent story on my list.
It is I just think Batman Annual number three by
Tom Taylor and Otto Schman. Oh, that's a good one.
So if you don't know this issue, it is basically
it is begins with another recounting to the Wayne murders,
but from Alfred's point of view, and it's about him

(01:46:58):
coming to pick up Bruce Wayne at the scene of
the crime, and then we cut to another night and
get another call, but this time it's from Batman, leading
to the idea that like Alfred's life is basically that
he gets kind of these terrible calls all the time.
Now it's call Father's Day. This is a storyline, so
it's a bit of a spoiler to the ending, but
I'm gonna tell you anyways, this is basically a love

(01:47:20):
letter to the relationship between Batman and Alfred. It's pretty
simple story. It's about Batman leaping from one crisis to
the next. There's a new villain, and you know, it
follows Alfred's life of like, he gets up, he gets dressed,
he descends into the bat cave waiting for Batman to

(01:47:41):
come in from the night, and it's Alfred being steady
and calm and reliable as Bruce is basically driven mad
by the crisesase of every single night. Now, the villain
is pretty forgettable in this issue. He's just a villain
that is orchestrating chaos and he's just causing a lot

(01:48:01):
of problems for Batman. Basically, Batman is not sleeping because
he's trying to hunt down the sky and Alfred can
foresee that an ultimate crash and burn is going to happen.
So Batman of course has to leave at three am.
At one point goes out to face this nameless villain

(01:48:21):
that does not need to be remembered, and because of it,
he's able to defeat the villain, but Batman gets pretty injured.
This is so similar to a scene we've seen and
Batman begins and a lot of other things like that.
So it leads to a scene where basically Alfred has
to go out and rescue Bruce. And this is what
I was leading to earlier. Alfred puts it on, of course,
the bat cow and runs out and goes and goes
and gets his boy. Yeah. See, he brings the boy back,

(01:48:45):
and of course, you know, calls on Leslie Tompkins, the
famous doctor, to heal him. And you know, during this conversation,
Leslie basically says, you know, what are you doing, Alfred?
Like this kid goes out and gets injured every night.
She's like, we could have been married by now, we could.

Speaker 1 (01:49:01):
Yeah, there were. There are lovers. They're my favorite of
all of al Alfred has a couple of late she's
my favorite of his ladies.

Speaker 2 (01:49:08):
I agree, And Alfred has a very and this is
I think was really this is the reason why his
most recent story popped at the top of my list.
Tom Taylor great writer, by the way, Yeah, as a
really great way of sort of getting to the heart
of characters that have been published for eighty years. And
he has this conversation between Leslie and Alfred, and Alfred says,

(01:49:33):
you know, every time I walk through Gotham, I see
people with family, with friends and lies. And he's like,
I know those people wouldn't be around without Batman. Mmmm,
and he goes, I'm just happy to jump when he calls.
He goes, every time I pick up the phone and
I hear his voice, it's a relief. That's a great line,

(01:49:57):
and so it's it falls immediately to this next scene
where Leslie comes in and of course talks to Bruce alone,
and Leslie is basically like, you need to give him.

Speaker 1 (01:50:05):
A day off.

Speaker 2 (01:50:06):
Yeah, yeah, tired, yeah yeah, And he's like he's ancient,
You're like aar be old. And the story ends where
Alfred falls asleep and then Alfred awakes and he's like,
oh no, I've slept the entire day. Oh no, oh no, no,
no no, and Bruce comes in and goes, don't worry

(01:50:26):
about it. I came in and I took your alarm
clock and Bruce and Alfred says, how did you do? Oh,
of course you're in ninja.

Speaker 1 (01:50:34):
That's how you did it.

Speaker 2 (01:50:35):
And Bruce goes, I wanted you to have the day off.
I didn't want you to worry about today, and Alfred goes, really,
what's so special about today? And Bruce looks at him
and just smiles and goes, get some rest, Alfred. And
that's seeing the story. And of course the story is
called Father's Day, and the day, of course is Father's Day.

(01:50:55):
This is a story to me that if it doesn't
tug at your heartstrings, you don't have a pulse.

Speaker 1 (01:50:59):
One of my favorite Batman family tropes is somebody falling
asleep and like the other person being like, oh you rest,
he worked really hard.

Speaker 2 (01:51:07):
Yeah yeah. But this to me is, you know, for
lack of a better we We've talked about a couple
of times about how some of these Alfred stories is
about Alfred just being like I'm.

Speaker 1 (01:51:18):
Out, yeah, yeah yeah, John with you, Bruce, which is
also a very dick ray something to do.

Speaker 2 (01:51:23):
It's nice to have a story that explains why Alfred
stays yeah, and that and that Bruce loves him. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So that is Father's Day Batman Annual number three is
my number one Alfred Pennyworth's story. All right, so let's
get to the recommended reading. That's where if you go
over to geek Houster for US and dot com slash
recommended Reading, you can find a lot of our choices

(01:51:46):
and you can click on them and get a little
widget take you over to Comicxology or Amazon you can
buy a copy of each of these stories.

Speaker 1 (01:51:53):
But after that, let's talk about the honor roll.

Speaker 2 (01:51:55):
What is that, Ashley?

Speaker 1 (01:51:56):
That is where if you go over to Apple podcast
and you us five stars, we'll read whatever you write.
And let me tell you we picked one that makes
absolutely no sense this week, just to prove it. And
if you are a nice internationalistre please take a screenshot
and email it to geek history Lesson at gmail dot com,
because one, you can't see your ample podcasts in two
we want to know where you're from, so please also
let us know where you're frooms. We have two nice

(01:52:18):
people joining the Honorable today and who are they? Thank
you for asking. The first is day Naro three sixty five,
who says hello, great podcast with four exclamation points and says,
I used to think I could not go on and
life was nothing but an awful song.

Speaker 2 (01:52:33):
I think it's not supposed to be a song.

Speaker 1 (01:52:35):
But now I know the meaning of true love. I'm
leaning on the everlasting arms. If I can see it,
then I can do it. If I disbelieve it, there's
nothing to it. I believe I can fly. I believe
I can touch the sky.

Speaker 2 (01:52:47):
Oh yeah, oh, I believe they just wrote the lyrics
to I.

Speaker 1 (01:52:53):
Just got a.

Speaker 4 (01:52:57):
Bracket.

Speaker 2 (01:52:58):
Yes, I want to take your love and something fly
fly Away.

Speaker 1 (01:53:02):
I'm not gonna sing all of this, but I appreciate
you join taking the full character living.

Speaker 2 (01:53:09):
We're gonna play basketball against aliens. I don't know if
I've ever seen these words.

Speaker 1 (01:53:15):
He's gonna have some fun. I'm very if I can fly.

Speaker 2 (01:53:19):
Bill Murray's in that movie. So is Wayne Knight.

Speaker 1 (01:53:23):
Oh aknew way I was in that movie.

Speaker 2 (01:53:24):
So was Bill Murray's older brother.

Speaker 1 (01:53:27):
Like Steve Murray or something. He's got a name like that. Yeah,
you know that actor. So thank you Danaro three sixty
five for committing to this bit. They are also joined
today by eight Ball Cool, who says episode one eighty
twenty two fifty four, it would be like communist Germany?
What does that mean? Wa? Wait?

Speaker 2 (01:53:46):
What is what does that mean? In the I don't
understand it?

Speaker 1 (01:53:49):
Says episode one eighty twenty two fifty four, it would
be like communist Germany? What does that mean? And eight
Ball Cool let me tell you, it's been a long
ass time since we did episode one eighty. I don't
know what it means.

Speaker 2 (01:53:59):
But thank you so much for listening. Thanks for those
five star reviews, Bothy.

Speaker 1 (01:54:05):
So, thank you for illustrating. We want that if you
go by, stars will read whatever you're right?

Speaker 2 (01:54:10):
All right, cool?

Speaker 1 (01:54:11):
So, eight Ball Cool and Denaro three sixty five, Welcome
into the teacher's lounge. Professor Jason who is in here today?

Speaker 2 (01:54:18):
Baccobacco, Hey, I wanted to make as much sense as
their reviews and what do they teach? Scooby?

Speaker 1 (01:54:24):
I honestly, if people want to, if people like, if
someone wants to, you can rickroll us. I don't care
if you gus bly stars, we will read whatever you write.
We did like look and like I said, they come
into the honor, they're gonna need to learn my damn
it there we go yep, which I think is it's
lovely top by Blimit Scooby Doobity, Yeah exactly. I think
we made as much sense as their reviews and they
read them on the air. So I do admire the

(01:54:45):
commitment to the bally I do all. I send part
of the song. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (01:54:49):
Don't forget to follow and listen to this podcast everywhere
you can find it online. Hey, if you really like
this podcast, please tell your friends about it.

Speaker 1 (01:54:55):
Ashley.

Speaker 2 (01:54:56):
Where can we find GHL in the podcast? On social media?

Speaker 1 (01:55:00):
You can find us at geekstory lesson dot com. If
you put a slash blog on the end, you get
to see all the new posts that we have going
up every Thursday. We've got lots of fun stuff going
up there and compliment to these episodes each and every week.
You can also find us at Facebook dot com slash
geek History Lesson, on Twitter at GHL podcast, and on
Instagram at geek History Lesson. You can find Ashley on

(01:55:21):
Instagram and Twitter at Ashley V.

Speaker 2 (01:55:22):
Robinson. You can find me on Instagram, Twitter at John
on jw in and don't forget about the Patreon Patreon
dot com slash jomenhere, we're gonna rank all of the
Alfreds in other media. We have wrapped up. Now we're
hashtag stick Around. We've wrapped up our stick around contest.
We're not looking for any more entries, but we have
another entry here from Nate Olsen, who submitted this sound

(01:55:48):
effect for hashtags stick Around. It peaks a little bit,
so it's a little bit too loud. I apologize, everybody, class, class,
settle down. It's time for hashtags around.

Speaker 1 (01:56:02):
I appreciate the kids in the background. I like the
rhyme and the sound design.

Speaker 2 (01:56:07):
All right, we're hash This week's hashtags stick Around very
similar to last week's hashtags stick Around.

Speaker 1 (01:56:13):
Ashley.

Speaker 2 (01:56:13):
Yeah, who in the bat family do you think is
Alfred's favorite? Bruce?

Speaker 1 (01:56:21):
Bruce one percent, no question, no question. Bruce is his son.
So he loves Bruce above everybody else.

Speaker 2 (01:56:27):
I think, so, I really do.

Speaker 1 (01:56:29):
And how do you explain that he just leaves Bruce.
He's like, I'm out, Yeah, he also eats a lot
of crow from Bruce. Ah, it's the same thing as Damien,
the things that Bruce, the way Bruce gets away with
treating Alfred, and Alfred keeps coming back like that is
nothing but blind dedication in love Hondro person, What are
you gonna say, Dick Grayson again? No, I think it's
Barbara Barbara. Why do you say Barbara?

Speaker 2 (01:56:50):
Because I think Barbara's the most outside of the family.
Uh huh, So he's willing to like I think every
I bet they have a book club. I also think
that the thing he yes, they have a book club,
of course. And I think because Barbara's a librarian. When
you look at Barbara in other future histories, she always

(01:57:12):
leaves being backgirl and she goes on. She easily becomes
becomes the police commissioner, she becomes the mayor. And I
think Alfred admires that because I think that's exactly what
Alfred wants Bruce to do, and he knows that Bruce
will never move on from being Batman. Interesting, you know, like, like,
let's be honest with you, Bruce Wayne should be like

(01:57:34):
mayor of Gotham City, or he should be like the
Elon Musk of Gotham City they.

Speaker 1 (01:57:40):
Built by tah. Yes, but I should have picked a
better example. But you understand what it is instead of
being Batman, that's what Alfred wants. That's that's the whole
arc of Dark Knight rises about, and I think he
admires like Barbara's like, oh, hey, I went to grad school.
And I think he's like, oh, that's so lovely, Bruce.

Speaker 2 (01:57:57):
Have you thought about U? You know, you never really
finished call.

Speaker 1 (01:58:00):
I don't know. Does Bruce even have a degree. Technically
he does, but it degree is not a marker of
intelligence by any means.

Speaker 2 (01:58:07):
Yes, it depends on what version of continuity is.

Speaker 4 (01:58:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:58:10):
Man, the most versions he leaves college.

Speaker 1 (01:58:12):
Because definitely in my chronological timeline he did not even
go to college. Yes, but obviously highly educated, very smart
in most versions.

Speaker 3 (01:58:20):
I know.

Speaker 2 (01:58:20):
The way it's kind of portrayed is that he kind
of went into criminology, but he thought it was like
dumb and so he didn't complete it. Yeah, or he didn't.

Speaker 1 (01:58:27):
He was like, he's like, that's not justice.

Speaker 2 (01:58:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:58:29):
Justice is punging por people in the face and an alleyway. Yeah,
so that's the way he did it.

Speaker 2 (01:58:34):
Okay. They typed Vengeance, They wrote The Night. They are
the writers of Batman, and on this podcast we're going
to decide who are the best Batman writers of all time?

Speaker 1 (01:58:54):
Hello, and welcome to geek History. Lesson.

Speaker 2 (01:58:57):
I am Jason Fast with a typewriter like a bat I.

Speaker 1 (01:59:00):
Am Ashley Victoria Robinson. Welcome to your Mind University, because
you have stumbled onto the podcast where we take one
character contruct or specific superhero writer for popular culture and
teach you everything you need to know about them in
about an hour listeners. When Jason read his intro, I
almost broke because the one that I was prepping in
my mind was like, holy Batman writers, Batman.

Speaker 2 (01:59:22):
Oh, is that what you want to get? I would
love to hear your intro. We should make a note
before we were going to record this podcast, we did
not have an intro, and we were which happened some time,
and we both wrote one, would you like to do
yours right now?

Speaker 3 (01:59:33):
Sure?

Speaker 1 (01:59:34):
So I was going to say, holy Batman writers, Batman,
that's right, we're talking about Batman writers.

Speaker 2 (01:59:39):
Gee whiz.

Speaker 1 (01:59:39):
Because you're yes, Reis, my.

Speaker 2 (01:59:41):
Mind immediately went to that Kevin Conroy quote of I
am Vengeance, I am the Night, and so I was
immediately like, yes, I wanted to do some more like
I typed Vengeance, I scribbled the Night. Yeah, I am
a Batman writer, you know. So Anyways, everybody that's what
we're talking about today, the best We're going to decide
who are the best Batman writers? Now, specifically, we're going

(02:00:03):
to talk about the comic books. We're going to lean
into the comboos because Batman is a comic book character.
And this is all in celebration of the forthcoming movie. Uh,
The Batman, the not Batman or nor nor Batman begins
The Batman. Hey U, Matt Reeves, can I give you
cand of give you one note.

Speaker 1 (02:00:24):
About your things? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (02:00:25):
I love it. Drop they just call it Batman just Facebook. Well,
I don't think that you know that was my best
just to I don't think that.

Speaker 3 (02:00:34):
You know that.

Speaker 1 (02:00:36):
I do have no idea.

Speaker 2 (02:00:36):
It's just a Matt Reeves impression that I'm doing right
off the top of my head. I'd actually have never
heard him out loud. You know, I made movie three.
I made a trilogy about apes you did with Andy Serkis.

Speaker 1 (02:00:46):
Yeah, that was quite good.

Speaker 2 (02:00:47):
I almost wanted to call them the Rise of the Planet,
the Planet of the Apes, That Dawn of the Planet,
the app and the War.

Speaker 1 (02:00:55):
Of the Planet Abes. Well, you know, articles are not
necessarily director, thank you very much, are necessarily the strongest choice.
He's calling me Matt Reeves because I'm gonna be honest
with you at the matt Reeves. Yes, I am quite,
it's actually Matt Reeves film. I'm prolific on Twitter. Actually
I tweet a lot. You do, You do the Twitter,
but you know that when your film is categorized, whether

(02:01:17):
that's on a shelf or in someone's digital collection, it
will be filed under B for Batman, not T for
the No. No, no, I'm going to change the laws
of that.

Speaker 2 (02:01:25):
I don't think you know how retail works. I have
been writing the email to the Congress.

Speaker 1 (02:01:32):
Is he American?

Speaker 5 (02:01:33):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (02:01:34):
I believe Matt Reeves is American. We all. We've also,
by the way, at this point, lost all our listeners.
If you have not listened to our Best Batman Artist
that is episode two ninety two with Jase My Lamb.
We also have an eleven minute YouTube video from a
couple of years ago called Best Batman Stories.

Speaker 4 (02:01:50):
If you.

Speaker 1 (02:01:53):
Want a longer form version of that topic, you can
request that. If you want just best Batman Stories, not
best Artists or best writer, you can do that. Hit
us up at GHL podcast.

Speaker 2 (02:02:03):
We almost did that for this episode. But we decided
to go into a longer form of talking about the
men and women who have shaped Batman behind the keyboard,
if you will, We thought this would be better also fun,
fat guys, if you don't know this at this point,
and you know, we have a Patreon Patreon dot com
slash jawin and over there for this week's GHL extra

(02:02:23):
is gonna be really fun episode. We're going to briefly
talk about the best Batman screenwriters, real Lucy Goosey like
of all time. So if you go over there at
Patreon dot com slash johm Andy listen to that episode.
You want us to expand that episode because I do
think there have been a lot of great Batman screenwriters,
and mister the Matt Reeves is going to join that
lexicon very very soon, well actually tendently, he's already joined it.

(02:02:45):
The script has already written.

Speaker 1 (02:02:46):
Well we haven't seen it yet, so we won't be
speaking on it because we can't.

Speaker 2 (02:02:50):
We don't want to. No, no, no, the script has
definitely been written because they I both know they shoot
whole movies with no or little script. I know some
of your favorite franchises in fact, yes, so you know
you can go over there and listen to that. And
also there is we just wrapped up the season finally
of Jason and Jeremy John about Justice League. The season
one family of Justice League Animated is over there as well,

(02:03:12):
and Ashley, there is also something very special and very
cool and longtime listeners are going to be excited about
over there as well.

Speaker 1 (02:03:18):
Yeah, so, if you the month, this is released in
February of twenty twenty, if you hop your hot little
hands over to patreon dot com slash jawin, we are
sending the first of our exclusive set of geek history
lesson prints out to our secret mail level patrons. They
are all drawn and commissioned in partnership with Brian Lopez.
His handle on Instagram and on his own Patreon is

(02:03:41):
b two ore Ia NLS, fabulous artist who has collaborated
with Jason on Super Best Friend. He drew the foil
cover for issue one. He drew my bookmark on my
very first aroa. So go and check those out.

Speaker 2 (02:03:53):
It's going to be a doctor strange tastic time. Yeah,
you can find that all over at patreon dot com
slash jobmen, and thank you to our super friends that
are over there all right, Ashley, Yes, it is time
to get into this. We're looking for the best Batman writers,
comics writers of all time, Ashley, who is numeral sinkle sinko,

(02:04:16):
sinkle tinkle? What's in French sink sink noumero?

Speaker 1 (02:04:22):
Do you know what it is in Chuman?

Speaker 4 (02:04:23):
No?

Speaker 2 (02:04:24):
I don't fomthomomth Oh. Okay, well what's your number five?
What's your number five?

Speaker 1 (02:04:29):
My number five is someone who right before we started
this podcast, Jason said I almost put them on my lip. Yeah,
you said that, and I was like, I'm panicking. It's Pauldini. Oh, mister, amazing,
amazing Paul Deini. I'm putting him at number five instead
of putting him a little higher because I think in
the pop culture zeitgeist, in the larger lexicon, we would

(02:04:50):
consider his influence to be more animated than comic books.
But he has written some pretty long Batman runs. However,
every I will say this, every Pauldini comic, period comic book,
no matter who it's about, is solid. Yeah, it's true,
solid to very good. But he's never written a bad comic.

Speaker 2 (02:05:08):
In my opinion.

Speaker 1 (02:05:09):
Many of the stories that he wrote or introduced in
the Batman animated series. Episodes were adapted to the comic books,
either as Batman Adventures or with a more mature twist,
brought to them in the mainstream DC Comics universe continuity,
usually in Detective comics, because he had a long run
on the day.

Speaker 2 (02:05:24):
If I may, and Paul actually wrote some issues of
Batman Adventures, Yes he did.

Speaker 1 (02:05:28):
Yeah, but I mean, like, so, there's the there's the thing.
The Batman Adventures are in the exact same tone as
the show because it's the adaptation of the show. But
then he also wrote like mainstream Batman comics, where he
took things like the Joker Christmas episode and just brought
him right into Batman continuity for for a slightly older,
slightly less afraid audience. He co invented Harley Quinn for

(02:05:51):
goodness sake, for better or worse, That character is the
single most popular contemporary addition to the Batman mythos.

Speaker 2 (02:05:59):
That's no, I think there's no doubt about that.

Speaker 1 (02:06:01):
I mean yeah, I mean she's iconic, and he is
part of that, and he is part of bringing her
from television to comics, and he brought contemporary pop culture
sensibilities to Batman across two mediums. So for me, he
definitely deserves to make it onto this list. And if
you are sleeping on Batman Adventures, I can't encourage you
enough to check them out. They're really great comics that

(02:06:23):
we recently got full collections of. I think he's less
known for that final batch of them. I know they're
so good. The Superman Adventures comics are so good. I
haven't collected the whole batche of them. Well, uh, DC
comics collections. I know at least some people who work
or have worked for you listen to this collect them
for Jason. Please. Yeah, I know, no, it'll happen. We'll

(02:06:44):
never get impulse. But okay, Jason, who is that a Paulini?

Speaker 2 (02:06:49):
That's my Paldini?

Speaker 1 (02:06:50):
Who is your number?

Speaker 2 (02:06:53):
Fomth my numero Sinko. In terms of the best Batman writers,
is a gentleman that I don't think is highly regarded
in modern fandom, and I think should be, and that
is mister Steve Inglehart. Now you might be saying to yourself,
who the hell is Steve Inglehart? And if that's the case,
then go by yourself. The Tales of the Dark Knight

(02:07:14):
by Steve Inglehart. I think there's a hardcover collection. I
might not multiple, that might not be the exact title,
but they just released it last year. Steve Inglehart wrote
Batman in the seventies and eighties and with artists Marshall
Rogers and Terry Austen and other people like this. He
is one of the writers. He's not the main writer,
but he's one of the writers that is responsible for

(02:07:35):
returning Batman back to a pulpier, visceral and darker Batman.
But the real reason I put Steve on here is
because Steve is I'll get to why he did to Batman,
which is very interesting Ashley, and you might be surprised
that he did this to Batman. But Steve is responsible

(02:07:57):
for the homicidal.

Speaker 1 (02:07:58):
Joker really so interesting.

Speaker 2 (02:08:03):
The Joker when he first appeared in his first golden age,
was about like I'm going to murder this person and
I'm gonna come out of a radio and get He
would announce on the radio, right and I got fishies
and then they turned him silver and Goofy. Steve is
the writer responsible for taking the Joker back to homicidal
maniac instead of Goofy, and he is said in several
interviews that he was like, that was my whole goal,

(02:08:23):
because he said the Joker at that time was considered
to be very family friendly, and he's like, I.

Speaker 1 (02:08:28):
Didn't like that.

Speaker 2 (02:08:29):
But also that's not out. That's not all Steve did.
Steve also is the one responsible he brought back Golden
Age villain doctor Hugo Strange and introduced him as the
scary therapist Doctor Strange, who is famous in the Arkham Games.

Speaker 1 (02:08:45):
That's Stevie.

Speaker 2 (02:08:45):
Yeah, I don't like him because he's scared. Yeah, but
also you mentioned it very briefly just a second ago.
Steve Inglar is the writer of the Laughing Fish storyline
with the Joke. It's my favorite Joker story of all time,
the Laughing Fish. It's the very famous cover that we
should share on the GHLFO.

Speaker 1 (02:09:02):
We will share it where the Joker is holding. It's iconic.

Speaker 2 (02:09:05):
He also wrote the Sign of the Joker. But I
want also the reason why Steve gets on here is
not only was he integral to read introducing these villains,
but Steve was very much at the time when he
took over Batman, and he said this in several interviews
that he's like Bruce Wayne wasn't a person when I

(02:09:27):
took over Batman m hm, and so he said to himself,
he was like, well, he was like, Bruce Wayne is
a millionaire playboy. He's running a million dollar industry. He
would have hot girlfriends, he would have a sex life,
he would have all these things. Steve Ingelhart is sort

(02:09:47):
of responsible for making Bruce Wayne sort of the international
hopping James Bondi and playboy that we have kind of
come to know. And he basically made Bruce Wayne a
fully rounded person because kind of like as it happens
to Clark Kent, Bruce Wayne was basically ignored. And Steve

(02:10:08):
Inglehart is this one that I that really introduced well,
I think we see very excellently and Batman begins the
Bruce Wayne, you come to my party, you drink my booze.
That's Steve Engelhart. Do you also think that there's a
direct line between what he started with a Joker and
the Joker the Joaquin Phoenix movie. Very much so, very
much so. But lastly, I want to give a little

(02:10:30):
winky wink to one of my favorite Bruce Wayne Paramore's.
Steve Inglehart is the creator of Silver Saint Cloud. I
knew you were going to say, and I love Silver
Saint Cloud. So that is why Steve Englehart is my
number five Batman writer. Underrated genius. I will say I
did not put him on my list because I was
pretty sure you was. Yeah, yeah, Steve Englehart. There are

(02:10:52):
some comic book writers that are still alive to this day.
Steve Engelhart, Bell Mantlow is one of these writers that
I think do not get their due, and I think
modern fandom doesn't realize how much they owe, how much
they owe to these creatives. Yeah, yeah, Ashley, who is
your h Let's go through all the languages again. Who's
your number four? Your new motto quetro? What is in French?

Speaker 1 (02:11:13):
And what's in German? Fear? Fear?

Speaker 2 (02:11:20):
I got him mixed up.

Speaker 1 (02:11:20):
I think four and fear is five?

Speaker 2 (02:11:22):
Oh boy, all our German listeners have signed on, sorry fear.
What's what's our number four? What's our number four? What's
the number four? Nine? Number four?

Speaker 1 (02:11:32):
The German Batman losses? What's the number four? Is? When
I did my first pass at this list, everyone I
had has written a comic in the last twenty years,
most of them, in my.

Speaker 2 (02:11:43):
Defense, fund back. Steve Engelhart did a Batman mini series
is about ten years ago.

Speaker 1 (02:11:48):
But in my defense, most of them started in the
seventies and eighties, so they're not super super contemporary writers.
But I wanted to make sure that I went back
and looked at some of the OG's so that we
gave credit where credits due. That's something that we really
try to do here on the podcast. So my number
four is the ogist og Oh, I think I know
you're finger Bill Finger I the creator of Robin, the creator.

Speaker 2 (02:12:10):
Of everything you really like from Batman that got expanded
on by the other.

Speaker 1 (02:12:14):
People we're talking about today and The Joker and the
Joker and Catwoman and the origin of Batman and the Batmobile.
I love the og batmobile. It's so silly, but yeah,
that's what honestly, that's why in The Batman I'm very
into the Batmobile design because, in my opinion's fair riffs.

Speaker 2 (02:12:31):
Yeah, I like Ogibat. That is one of the things
I do dig for the design of that movie is
that like it's it kind of looks like it's an
old Mustang or a charger.

Speaker 1 (02:12:38):
Yeah, yeah, which I think is cool. I think that's
what the movie anyway, I really don't know if there's
anything I can add to the Bill Finger discourse. Over
the last twenty five years twenty years or so, I
feel like he's really started to get his due in
a big way.

Speaker 2 (02:12:52):
Do you want to explain just in case anybody that's listening,
in case they don't know, like who is built, because
like if they're saying they're listening to this right now
and they're saying, all I know is Bob Kane, who's
this Bill Finger?

Speaker 4 (02:13:02):
Guy?

Speaker 1 (02:13:03):
Bill Finger is the other writer. Basically he was kind
of the ghostwriter, yes, because he's not credited on everything
that he worked on. Kind of like probably more famously
in a contemporary since we know that Greg Capulo drew
a bunch of issues with Spawned that he was not
originally credit for, but now that now we know that
he didn't, he has his credit. Bill Finger was the

(02:13:25):
same way. Bill Finger is responsible, like we said, for
adding most of the things that we think of as
being cool about the larger Batman mythology that went on
to be expanded by and because he was not as
cutthroat as Bob Kane, and I don't Bob Kane got
his credit and he.

Speaker 2 (02:13:40):
Did what he needed to do he just didn't have
a good good of lawyers.

Speaker 1 (02:13:43):
Or a state later or in a state later on
who followed up. And so it's been a really big part.
And Kevin Smith is actually his podcast Batman on Batman
is what brought Bill Finger, to my knowledge, really responsible,
I think for popularizing the discourse of giving Bill Finger
his credit both.

Speaker 2 (02:14:01):
It's a great documentary about Bill Finger on Hulu.

Speaker 1 (02:14:03):
Yes, there is both both on paper and in the zeitgeist.
So if you don't know who he is, maybe also
google it. He was a man ahead of his time,
in my opinion, with a sense of which point of
view Batman the character in pop culture needed, and it
left him. Bill Finger's work is the reason why Batman

(02:14:25):
is the most popular and most famous superhero of all
times and almost one hundred years he set those building blocks.
So for literally inventing my favorite character of all time,
having all the characteristics in place for everything cool about
Batman almost a century ago at this point, I think

(02:14:46):
he deserves credit for being the originator and for understanding
that Batman it was okay to change things and for
Batman to get updates, because that is something that contemporary
comics try to do. But also get stuck in. So
Bill Finger thetionary is my number four. Nice, who is
your number four?

Speaker 2 (02:15:04):
My number four is going to be a person that
definitely changed Batman in a lot of ways, for ill
and for.

Speaker 1 (02:15:13):
Good, both ways actually, which often happens.

Speaker 2 (02:15:15):
But I think a lot of fans listening to this
will say that this gentleman is way too low. But
I think there are people that change Batman even more,
that are that are coming.

Speaker 1 (02:15:27):
These are just our opinions, folks.

Speaker 2 (02:15:28):
Oh yeah, we don't as well. These are our choices.
These aren't objective, as we say. My number four is
Frank Miller not on my list, So I put Frank
Miller on here, the great writer of Batman Year one
and the Dark Knight Returns, and whatever you think about
Frank Miller and his stories, those two comics changed Batman forever.

(02:15:49):
You're absolutely right think about Batman before nineteen eighty five,
even though we had some people like Steve Engelhart and
various other writers, and Len Ween and Marve Wolfman are
sort of taking Batman darker. Batman still has a blue cape.
He still has bright yellow you know, a bury yellow belt.

Speaker 1 (02:16:09):
Robin.

Speaker 2 (02:16:09):
They're bouncing around, they're like ha ha ha ha Batman,
Let's go around the Rooftman Japanese sounds like speed racer.
Hullo Robin, Let's go ah ah.

Speaker 1 (02:16:21):
You know, man, if you want to request the speed
racer ghlo.

Speaker 2 (02:16:26):
And Frank Miller wrote this iconograph novel The Dark Knight
Returns in nineteen eighty six, by the way, also one
of the very first prestige format mini series that were
given the direct market. And Batman's cape got black, he
got angry, and he got shorty little ears and it
was also you think about this is one of the

(02:16:49):
first Batman stories that grounded the DC universe. In reality,
Gotham City became like the Dilapida New York City.

Speaker 1 (02:17:01):
Of the eighties. Yeah, yeah, you know.

Speaker 2 (02:17:04):
Also before Frank Miller, Batman and Superman were always the
best of friends, you know. And Frank Miller is the
one that really introduced this is a person that who
dresses up in a bat costume and spins his evenings
punching criminals in the face might not be the most
sanest individual around him. He said, what if they hit

(02:17:25):
each other? Well, I know what I'm saying is that
nand what if Batman was crazy? Is what this guy says.
Bruce Wayne is mentally ill. He is mentally ill. He
needs Leslie Tompkins. Yes, So you know it's interesting that
with this story that darn't returns. Frank Miller said, I'm
going to tell you the ending of Batman. Yeah, and

(02:17:47):
then right after that he created Batman Year one, which,
by the way, DC is still people are still doing
like Year ones, Year two's Year threes forty years later.

Speaker 1 (02:17:58):
I'm also going to give you, guys, little spoiler guy
Scales non binary pals for a future episode. I'm gonna
be talking a lot more about Batman You're One here
in a few weeks.

Speaker 2 (02:18:07):
Okay, But also I was gonna say these Batman You're
One to me is the definite Batman.

Speaker 1 (02:18:13):
I Batman You're One is my favorite Frank Miller Batman,
and it is my Batman origin. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:18:17):
Also, you have to think about it. Batman You're One
is not only just a Batman origin, it's a Jim
Gordon origin.

Speaker 1 (02:18:23):
It's a green Arrow the origin. What I mean because
because You're One heavily inspired Batman Begins, which heavily inspired
the Aerow Pilot. Oh okay, I was a c Okay,
I know, I understand. I was like, there is a
green arrow, Selena Kyles, and it's a woman origin. It's
a catwoman origin. But when you look at Batman begins.

(02:18:47):
When you look at I guarantee that Batman is going
to be influenced by this as well like it is.
I mean, look at the trailer.

Speaker 2 (02:18:53):
I mean they even made an animated movie Batman. You're what,
but Frank Miller, there is a before Frank Miller Batman
in an after Frank Miller. Patt absolutely also This Batman
story basically kicked off what now people call the dark
Age of modern of comics for the next ten years,
where every comic was like racing to be like the

(02:19:15):
grittiest and the hardest comic it could be.

Speaker 1 (02:19:18):
Yeah, it kind of closes off the bronze age, which
we'll we'll do our Batman bronze age eventually. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:19:25):
But that's why Frank Miller is my number four because
he definitely changed Batman. He changed him a lot, but
he also puts some there's some stuff that we're still trying.
You can there are certain writers here and there that
will still write a Frank Miller Batman and you're like,
we're past the Frank Miller Batman guys, and but he
definitely definitely changed the game.

Speaker 4 (02:19:46):
He he.

Speaker 2 (02:19:48):
This is the Citizen Kane of basically Batman comic books.
Is that Dark Knight Returns.

Speaker 1 (02:19:52):
There's no a sled in it.

Speaker 2 (02:19:56):
No, but there is a horse, that's true. There's lots
of horse true, there are always so yeah, there you go.
You know, we brought up real quick that after Frank Miller,
Superman and Batman, we're best friends anymore. But I can
tell you, friends that if you are looking for a
story about best friends over on Kickstarter, write this very

(02:20:18):
second at super Best Friend comic dot com. Is my
new forty four page comic book, Super Best Friend, which
stars the sidekick of the world's greatest superhero, Matty Moore
and his best friend, Captain Terrific. And let me tell you, friends,
Mattie Moore accidentally broadcast the secret identity of Captain Terrific

(02:20:38):
to the entire world. And that's right, and they have
a battle royale just like Batman and Superman in the
Dark Knight Returns. Except it isn't with this, it's with words.
It's a really great comic book that I've had a
lot of time working on and this is the second
part of the three part Super Best Friend trilogy. It's
a forty four page independent comic book. I'm happy to

(02:21:01):
announce a Dan Jurgens variant cover. Former GHL guest and
creator Booster Goal Dan Jurgens has a variant cover over there.
The campaign is already funded, so we're pushing towards stretch goals.
That just means that this is a pre order campaign
for Super Best Friend Too. And I hope you go
over there and check it out because it is a
comic book that's filled with love of all of my superheroes.

(02:21:21):
If you like anything I've said about superheroes on this podcast,
I guarantee you you're gonna enjoy it. And there's lots
of cool tiers, like where you can have a zoom
call with me. You can get your scripts reviewed by me.
You know, you can pick some of my brain because
I've been working for CBS Television now for the last
four years, and you can pick my brain on some
of that knowledge and put it tiers towards your scripts.
And there's all kinds of funny things. But please go

(02:21:42):
over and check it out or share it online. Because
independent comic books are nothing but a laborer. Love, my friends,
you have to really love comic books to start a
comic book.

Speaker 1 (02:21:51):
I'll just tell you that.

Speaker 2 (02:21:52):
So come on over to super best Friend comic dot com.
The campaign will end on March third, don't miss it.
And I appreciate everybody that's supported, and uh will support
and just come get to some good Jason m Incong books.

Speaker 4 (02:22:06):
There you go.

Speaker 1 (02:22:08):
Everyone's going to know the identity of Captain Terrific, not
just me.

Speaker 2 (02:22:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:22:14):
Wow, they knew that with issue one.

Speaker 2 (02:22:16):
Actually it's called acting Jason, I don't know. Okay, let's
get to numeral trace.

Speaker 1 (02:22:23):
What is it in French? Okay? Do you are you
certain about the German this time?

Speaker 2 (02:22:27):
Yes, it's die die What is a numeralde dry d
r E?

Speaker 1 (02:22:33):
I try, I don't know. I speak friend, I speak
German with a French accent, so uh my, uh, numeral
dry is is not German. But is a man that
Jason and I once stood in line to meet and
he drew a batman for Jason. Even though he's a writer,
he's also a pretty good artist.

Speaker 4 (02:22:52):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (02:22:53):
And it is mister Grant Morrison. And by mister I
mean a non binary. That's right, he is not among
human people. Grant Morrison Objectively, I think Morrison is probably
the best writer in terms of prose and quality of
storytelling of everyone who has ever written Batman, even over
Neil Gaman. Yes, okay, oh for me, Yes, this is

(02:23:16):
it's my opinion.

Speaker 2 (02:23:18):
No, no, no, I just you know, you know then,
mister Neil gam has written some pretty interesting prosbars. I'm
just saying I agree with you.

Speaker 1 (02:23:24):
I just wanted to bring that up. I think they
have pushed the character further. I think they have challenged
what a Batman story is more than any other writer. However,
they haven't always written stories that I have loved or
added things to mythology that I have loved about the character.
So I'm putting them in the middle because this is
my list. God damn it.

Speaker 2 (02:23:40):
Well, I will say this everybody. As you know, longtime
listeners of this podcast know, Ashley is a huge fan
of Grant Morrison's Robin Damian Way. She loves him to
She has so many Damian Wayne action figures it's ridiculous.

Speaker 1 (02:23:55):
I will say this. What I do like about Damian
Wayne is I like that he's half Middle Eastern Yeah,
I think that's very depending on who draws him. No,
that's an object that's an objective fact. I agree, it
depends on who draws well, it depends on the color. Look,
I know genetics are what they are, but I think
I think find the new young hot dev Fotelle if
you're going to insist on putting him in live action anyway,

(02:24:18):
Grant Morrison, embrace all the continuity, all the all the
rainbows and all the silliness that Jason was talking about
having kind of been wiped away by Englehart and Miller
up to this point, and he presented readers. They presented
readers with the idea of bat God and of what
it would mean coming out of something like a Frank

(02:24:39):
Miller story to have Batman go toe to toe with
godheads like wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter and Superman dark
Side and dark Side and again, I guess you could
say for good or for ill, that's become a really
important part of Batman in the larger continuity in terms
of like the DC universe at large. Check out their
work super Gods if you want to know more about that.

Speaker 2 (02:25:03):
Poster Spotlight Ay Now, listeners actually talked a little bit
about meeting Grant Morrison. I just want to say that
in the GHL studios because I noticed it in the
reflection of the mirror behind Ashley. We have the Grant
Morrison designed map of the DC multiverse, and when we
met mister Grant Morrison, we got him to sign it them.

(02:25:24):
Oh sorry, I apologized, then they and they got them.
We got them to sign it, and we'll share a
picture of that online. That's pretty cool, Yes, we will.
I didn't mean your repet but I clocked that in
the front of my eye and I said, oh, yeah,
that's right.

Speaker 1 (02:25:37):
The only other thing that I want to say is
that they opened up the character as a modern myth
in a way no one else has before since ever
managed to do so. Grant Morrison was definitely going to
find their way onto my list, and I said, number.

Speaker 2 (02:25:50):
Three is a good spot.

Speaker 1 (02:25:51):
Okay, interesting, So we're we're about halfway through our list, Jason.
This is your number three.

Speaker 2 (02:25:58):
My number three is the right that I think, more
than any other writer has defined the modern Batman family,
and that.

Speaker 1 (02:26:06):
Is Chuck Dixon. He is my number three.

Speaker 2 (02:26:11):
This is the man that wrote detective comics, Robin Nightwing
and Catwoman all at the same time in their separate books.
He is the writer that basically established what we think
of as the modern identity in the modern story of

(02:26:32):
Tim Drake and Dick Grayson Knightley, it is Chuck Dixon.
He's easily, easily one of the most prolific Batman writers
of all time. Like, I don't know how many issues
of Batman this gentleman has written, but I would be
blown away if any other writer comes close to his

(02:26:52):
number of issues, because again, he was writing at one
point almost every Batman title all the same time, which
is one, how do you How did you do it?

Speaker 1 (02:27:04):
Chuck?

Speaker 2 (02:27:04):
And then two like Dear Lord the the the amount
of ideas coming out of this man at one point
was insane, And to be honest with you, most of
his stuff is so good, and that's what's so impressive
with him. In nineties he created like all these he's
like kind of the Batman event writer. He co created, uh,

(02:27:25):
the Nightfall Night Quest Night's End trilogy, which is where
you know, Asrael Batman took over as you know as Batman. Uh,
that's where he co created Baine, the very first famous villain.
Now he created Contagion he created legacy. I mean, most
people would say that his most powerful legacy to Batman

(02:27:46):
is Bane, who was by this point, crazily enough, has
appeared in two Batman movies. Now, yeah, you know, but
I kind of think about that. Chuck Dixon has like actually,
in my opinion, contributed to a lot of other great
stuff to Batman. And you know, it's a lot of
it is that Chuck rights the person behind the mask

(02:28:08):
first and not the mask itself, Like he is one
of these writers where to me, there is no distinction
between Bruce and Batman, Like it is not the mask
argument like we like some people try to make it
like Frank Miller loves to do where the three different people. No,
Chuck is like, that is just a dude, and that
is just a costume. You know, It's interesting because a
lot of it is just like Bruce is struggling. There's

(02:28:31):
a lot of stories where Bruce is unsure if he'll
even like take up the cow again, and basically his
stories are about Batman is suffering and then deciding to
stay Batman and what that ultimately means. There is one
storyline I'm leaning off of this and it was kind
of the crescendo in the end of Chuck Sixon's long,
long run on Batman. But Chuck Dixon also contributed to

(02:28:55):
one of my favorite Batman storylines of all time, No
Man's Land.

Speaker 1 (02:28:58):
Yes, I believe he was. He's kind of considered to
be the architect of No Man Say. And he didn't
write every issue, but I'm not sure if he wrote
the issue where Harley Quinn is introduced into mainstream continuity,
but that is the storyline where Harley Quinn is introduced
into maindream.

Speaker 2 (02:29:12):
I believe he left Batman in the middle of No
Mansley if I remember. But there is also another contribution
that he gave to the bat universe besides all these
characters and and again, he is the first writer of
a Robin solo series. Yep, the first Robin Tim Drake
Socio and the Nightling solo series. But I was talking

(02:29:34):
about the mini series.

Speaker 1 (02:29:35):
Oh yeah, that's true.

Speaker 2 (02:29:37):
Well, but you are correct. Yeah, so he's the first
night Wing. I think Alan Grant wrote the night Wing
mini series before that. But anyways, but I understand your own.

Speaker 1 (02:29:44):
The ongoing night Wing.

Speaker 2 (02:29:46):
Yeah, he also wrote the first Catwoman meaning Alan Going series.
But he created a character that I know Ashley is
not a big fan of, but this character has stuck
around and is a big fan of. And I bet
we will see in some live action version truck Dickson
create is Stephanie Brown.

Speaker 1 (02:30:03):
We are going to see Stephanie Brown. Stephie Brown is
in Batwoman. There you go, There you go? So yeah,
I and I'm surprised at that look. I like her
as as spoiled. I like her kind of outside of
the Bat Family. I don't like her being embraced by that.
That's really where you like her best than Tim Drake's
series issue I do. I like her as like Robin's
weird me too. I don't like her as Robin. Sorry, yeah, sorry, yeah,

(02:30:25):
but and like that's a pretty big I mean, Stephanie
Brown's been around for thirty years now. She is an
important look for all for my feelings about the character.
She's an important female character in the bat Family. Yes,
a great backgirl costume. I actually agree with that too,
great backrol cos if I'm may Chuck Dixon was my
number one. Oh okay, because this is my favorite era

(02:30:46):
of Batman. So that's how I fixed my Do you
want to wait or do you want to kick? Into it.

Speaker 2 (02:30:51):
I think I'll just kick it because you've already mentioned
my one of my number two, my number two, and
I but I decided to wait.

Speaker 1 (02:30:56):
Oh I know, I'm always like, let me just stick
my nose in right now? Do you want to do?

Speaker 2 (02:31:00):
We can wait until you want to give it a
given end.

Speaker 1 (02:31:02):
Or okay, okay, find them, We'll wait, Yeah, cool, fine.

Speaker 2 (02:31:04):
Give people anticipation. Okay, all right, cool, all right, let's
go Ashley. Then have we we have done your number
two yet we have not done my number two.

Speaker 1 (02:31:13):
We've done your number? Nume?

Speaker 2 (02:31:14):
Dos do do you?

Speaker 1 (02:31:16):
In French? And then what is it in German?

Speaker 2 (02:31:19):
Viva?

Speaker 1 (02:31:21):
Who's your number two? Jeff Low? Jeff Flow? Okay, Jeff
Flow with the funny spelling, it's not funny, it's just
a typical spelling of the name. Jefflow penned my very
favorite Batman story of all time, Batman The Long Halloween,
and he wrote, in my opinion, he writes the best
standalone Batman because he embraces Batman as a detective. He

(02:31:46):
also wrote the if you know someone who likes Batman
who doesn't know comics, you go to the comic store,
you say, gimme Batman Hush because it's never gone out
of print. Uh and Jeff Loowe wrote that it is
the most accessible. Her is everyone that you know and
love from the Batman story. It has been adapted into film,
animated films, It has influenced live action films, it is

(02:32:11):
influencing stories going forward like those two for those two
books alone, and he hasn't written a ton a ton
of Batman, but for those two books alone. And then
he also wrote Dark Victory, which, like Long Halloween, he
wrote with Tim Salle, who's one of my favorite Batman artists.
That's my favorite Dick race in origin story. So Jeff
Lob for me, just presents Batman in a way that

(02:32:33):
really clicks in my mind. And I like the way
that he's able to bring out what is scary about
Gotham without making the books dark. Long Halloween is and
I'm not even just talking about in terms of like
a color palette or the way that the art is
rendered out.

Speaker 2 (02:32:49):
It's scary.

Speaker 1 (02:32:50):
The falconies are scary, and the villains are scary, but
it doesn't feel like the Batman might reach through the
panel and punch your teeth in like Miller's Batman feeling Miller,
you know what I mean. So I understand there's just
no way I couldn't put him on the list. I
like that he also pulls a lot of silly Silver
Age Batman characters into the modern age, like calendar Man,

(02:33:13):
like calendar Man, like Mad Hatter, and does new and
interesting twists with them. But ultimately it's because he chooses
to play on Batman's intellect and intelligence and his deductive reasoning.
I love Sherlock. Batman is ultimately a Sherlock archetype, and
I think that Jeff Low more than any other writer,
at least when I was coming to make up this list,

(02:33:34):
illustrates why he is the world's greatest detective, why Rasalgoul
calls him the detective. And those three of the three
volumes that I mentioned Long Halloween, Dark, Victory, and Hush
are because they are stand alone, like the accessibility in
them is out of this. You can't give a Grant
Morrison Batman to a casual fan on the street.

Speaker 2 (02:33:56):
I think you could give Batman and Son his first arc,
but you couldn't just pick anyone. And Jeff Flobe has
three that you.

Speaker 1 (02:34:03):
Could give to anyone. And in the I was gonna
say in the Jack Kerby and the stan Lee sense
of I know that's morrible. Every comic is someone's first comic,
and now that we have the direct market, every collection
is someone's first collection, and I think there's a great,
great value in that. Yeah, I knew Jeff Low was
going to be near the top of my list because
I just love what he does the Batman. I will

(02:34:24):
tell you he is not on my list. I didn't
think he would be.

Speaker 2 (02:34:27):
I knew, I knew.

Speaker 1 (02:34:29):
He'd be on your list.

Speaker 2 (02:34:30):
I mean, Batman Long Halloween is one that deserves and
Batman Hush is a lot stronger than people give it.

Speaker 1 (02:34:36):
Hu Hush and Long Halloween are two of Matt reeves.
He's stated in multiple interviews and on Twitter, those are
two of his heavy influences for the Batman.

Speaker 2 (02:34:44):
I mean, every Batman writer since The Long Halloween has
come out has stated that the Long Halloween is an influence.

Speaker 1 (02:34:48):
Yeah, that's how good it is.

Speaker 2 (02:34:49):
Even Christopher Nolan in The Dark Knights directly homages it.

Speaker 1 (02:34:53):
Yes, he does.

Speaker 2 (02:34:54):
Yeah, and the Rooftop, So you get a yeah, it's
about as close as we've gotten so far.

Speaker 1 (02:34:57):
Uh huh. I know we'll never get a direct adaptation.

Speaker 2 (02:35:00):
I bet we will. I bet we will someday take
that when we already got the animated movies. So that's true,
that's true. But I bet you I have no doubt
we'll have a live action someday. They're never going to
stop making Batman movies. That's the sad fact about this world.
Just do long Halloween. But put Robin and is all
the hard. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (02:35:18):
So Yeah, Jeffalob is my number Jason, who is your
number duo in Spanish usutus.

Speaker 2 (02:35:29):
My number two is a writer that we have mentioned
for it is Grant Morrison. I knew you put them
higher on your list. Grant Morrison can be summed up
and why he's on this list in a simple one
page that he introduced at the beginning of their series
Batman and Robin, where it's Batman and Robbing crashing through

(02:35:50):
a skylight and Robin yells, Batman and Robin will never die.

Speaker 1 (02:35:57):
That is the.

Speaker 2 (02:36:00):
Entirety of their Batman and Run because it's all about
the idea that Batman and Robin can never die, that
they are an idea that is so powerful. And you
know he has Batman and Son, which I said, I
think is the one that you give you love the resort.
I bought these single issue this. I will state this.
I have one writer higher than Grant Morrison. I think

(02:36:25):
the Grant Morrison run of comics, which goes across multiple titles,
which started in Batman, went to Final Crisis, went to
Batman and Robin a new series, then went to Batman
and Ink. So it's a it's a three arc series.
Is the best run of Batman comics of all time.

Speaker 1 (02:36:45):
I think it's this.

Speaker 2 (02:36:46):
I think it's this run because it has Batman and
somewhere introduces Damien as the resurrection of ros al Ghoul
and has the Black Glove, or it leads to like
Batman fighting this demonic Batman creature. And then also you
got to realize grand Marrison also wrote Arkham Asylum, the
graphic novel from the late eighties.

Speaker 1 (02:37:04):
I was, I say, decades before, which is still iconic,
still still in print.

Speaker 2 (02:37:08):
It's also it heavily influences the Arkham video game one
hundred percent responsible for those video games. But read with
your intoxicant of choice. Yes, Morrison, his stories are there layered,
they're complex, they depend on the interrelationships between characters. He's
it's so funny because you can tell the three arcs

(02:37:31):
of his story because he starts his Batman off very
much like James Bond, like I talked about the way
stevele Inglehart rather where he's like a jet setting playboy,
and then he gets he gets dumped with the son,
and so now he's like, oh crap, I'm a father.
How do I deal with this? And then that leads
into this whole idea where basically Batman has to fight

(02:37:52):
death itself in the form of dark side, the form
of dying, in the form of dying, and then the
second part of his storyline begins, well how does Batman
exist if Batman is dead? And then it all becomes
the storyline of Dick Grayson, the first Robin, Batman's first brother,
Jason's first character, Jason's favorite character, my favorite character in

(02:38:15):
all of comic books, has to pick up the mantle
and figure out how to be Batman and also has
to figure out how do I raise the son of
my father.

Speaker 1 (02:38:26):
You know, it's wild that a Scottish wizard understands American
comics better than anyone and.

Speaker 2 (02:38:34):
Also action figure spotlight. Dick Grayson has a very specific
Batman costume. Oh yeah, he has two scallops on his
gauntlets and he has a big Batman bechel. And I
waited years for them to make an action figure of
that Batman costume. And I have that action figure and

(02:38:56):
we'll share it on our twe you have the Batman
black and white too of that costume. I do think
miss Ashley Victoria Russ, right. But then his third art
goes into Batman Incorporated. And that's where it brings in,
like the Batman of All Nations, and it's this idea
of bat Wing, of bat Wing. That's where bat Wing
is introduced. And it's this idea where Bruce Wayne is like, well,

(02:39:16):
if I'm gonna be Batman and that's my life, then
I'm gonna make it work. I can't believe that WB
hasn't been like, this is how we do our.

Speaker 1 (02:39:25):
Big universe Batman Incorporated. Well, because obviously they did it
with you know, they tried it with the Justice League
and it worked out the way it worked out. But
they were like, everybody loved Batman. We've got eighty five
Batman books of DC here, right, Well, here's what if
we put a billion Batman in the movie.

Speaker 2 (02:39:40):
Here's the fun, here's the fun, here's the fun thing.
And it's so weird. The first writer after Grant Morrison
deleted Batman Incorporated. Yeah, but then here's the weird thing.
The current writer of Batman brought it right back. So
Batman in Corporated is Weirdly, it depends on the writer
about whether they wanted to exists or not. I think

(02:40:01):
it's such a genius idea that I would say it's
always out there, the ex corporations.

Speaker 1 (02:40:05):
I like the idea of it. If I were writing Batman,
I would not be interested in writing about it. Oh hell,
I would be like if if I was on Batman, plea,
don't hire me to write Batman, Please hire me to
write Robin, I would say, why don't we have a
Batman inc. Title where that exists? And someone else takes
that on? Because I think it's a smart idea.

Speaker 2 (02:40:24):
Yeah, but Grant Morrison again, they made their Batman fight
a god and transcend it. And also I think there's
something so genius in the moment. This is a slight
spoilers Final Crisis, a storyline that came out fifteen years ago.

Speaker 1 (02:40:40):
I was like, twenty.

Speaker 2 (02:40:43):
Batman shoots dark Side with the gun and says got you.
And I always remember Grant Morrison saying that they were
like that is like Batman saying got you to crime
and it's the time he broke his of not killing.
But the reason why Grant Morrison got this high on

(02:41:04):
my list is because I found this quote about Grant
Morrison talking about writing Dick Grayson as Batman, and this
is what he said. Grant Morrison ni quote by giving
him his own definite Robin in Damien. Yeah, I think
it actually elevated Grayson into being the real Batman. He
rose up to that role. I kind of always saw

(02:41:26):
him as the quintessential superhero. He's the first ever sidekick.
He's the first one to have grown up, and he's
actually pretty relaxed. He's handled his trauma in a way
that Batman never has.

Speaker 4 (02:41:41):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (02:41:41):
Here's a fun fact. Jason gave a very similar answer
in his audition to.

Speaker 2 (02:41:45):
Be on the DC ALEXA. Yes, and I guys, if
you want to go listen to our nightly episodes. Very
early on, I've always said the reason why Dick Grayson
is my favorite psychic of all is because he is.
When he was introduced he was the comic reader, he
was us, he is. We got to see him grow up,
and he has led the Justice League. So Batman will

(02:42:06):
never defeat crime. I say this all the time. Batman's
greatest success is Dick Grayson. That Dick Grayson grew up
to be a functioning human being. That Batman took this
scared and broken ten year old boy just like him
and somehow actually wrote raised him right somehow while fighting
crime and taking on calendar Man and kite Man. Somehow.

(02:42:30):
I mean, we probably could put a lot of this
at Alfred's feet, but somehow, twenty five percent of it
was Bruce Wayne and Dick Grayson, in my opinion, the
greatest superhero in the DC universe. That's right, better than
Superman because he's fully functional, he's an actualized human being,
and he's the greatest superhero and I mean best booty
in the game of course grade as all right, so

(02:42:56):
the children, that's why that has come on. I still
pg no worse than a moral movie.

Speaker 1 (02:43:01):
That's true.

Speaker 2 (02:43:02):
That's America's ass.

Speaker 1 (02:43:03):
That is America's ass.

Speaker 2 (02:43:04):
See, so there you go. This is Gotham's ass right here.
This is comics best ass. Anyways, So That is why
Grant Morrison and I own all the hardcovers of Grant
Morrison's run because I do believe it is the greatest
Batman run of all time. But well, I can't wait
to hear number one is gonna be.

Speaker 1 (02:43:23):
My number one? I think?

Speaker 2 (02:43:25):
Actually, well wall wait, there you go. But all right,
so there you go. Actually we here we are Numero Uno.
I know we already talked about your numero. We're a
little bit, but let's hear the full spiel again. French again.
I'm not even try Germans you and ein sin Yeah, okay,

(02:43:45):
what is your numero? Un know? Chuck Dixon?

Speaker 1 (02:43:47):
Of course we Knowed Dixon's the architect of my favorite
era of the Batman family in the entire history of
comic books. So like, why does he deserve you? Why
does he deserve your number one spot? So I have
all of these points that you are. He invented Bay,
He wrote the first Robin mini series and solo series.
He folded Birds of Prey into the larger Gotham city landscape.

(02:44:07):
He wrote Nightwings, first ongoing solo series. He oversaw the
introduction of Cassandra Kane bat Girl my favorite Batgirl, into
the bat Family. He made Oracle the most powerful character
in the DC universe. He oversaw the event where Harley
Quinn was introduced into matri continuity. Of all the writers
who have ever touched Batman, Dixon does what I want

(02:44:28):
to see in a Batman story best, which is the
Batman family. There's a very famous quote, hurt people, hurt people.
And I like the idea that by channeling his trauma
through Batman, which is not healthy, and I do not
advocate for Bruce, Wayne manages to avoid that. He manages
to take his hurt and to help people, and the

(02:44:52):
best way to do that. And it's why you'll never
convince me on Damian Wayne, even though I have enjoyed
stories with Damian Wayne in it is that he is
a an adopted father to these this island of misfit toys,
and it's nice that an orphan adopts orphans. It is
and Drake was not an orphan. Well, he became game
an orphan Wayne. He perfected the network of the Batman family.

(02:45:18):
He presents Batman as an imperfect father and honestly, it's
some of the closest thing to emotional development we had
in the modern age. Of comics for Bruce Wayne, who,
in my opinion post nineteen eighty five has pretty much
arrested in his development up to that point. And what
I like best about Dixon comic books is that they

(02:45:39):
can be for everyone. And this is something that Miller
introduced and we are deep in right now at the
time of this recording. In mainstream comics comics are not
for everyone. Batman comics are certainly not for everything.

Speaker 2 (02:45:51):
That's very true. You you can't hand mainstream Batman to
a little kid. You're a five year old, maybe a
ten year old, depending on where their emotional development.

Speaker 4 (02:46:00):
Like.

Speaker 1 (02:46:00):
There's stuff that I couldn't have handled it ten years old.
And ironically, the best the highest sales of comic books
is for an all ages market or a middle grade market.
And I think what's so special about Dixon's run is
that you could give those stories to everyone. I started
reading those books as a child in quarterbins, and they

(02:46:21):
usually work as a standalone issue and then if you
can get you know, if you have like five and
eight and ten, you can kind of figure out what
the ongoing arc is. That's how we used to read
comics kids before the internet. He hits the tone that
I like best in comics. So yes, he's prolific and
introduced a lot of really important things that we are
still seeing play out in modern comics. But he just

(02:46:42):
gives me the feeling from a Batman story that I want.
And I know that's not a super great answer, and
I know that is intangible, but it's true. So Jack Dixon,
no doubt was going to be my number one. Jason,
who is your number one?

Speaker 2 (02:46:54):
And did I spoil it?

Speaker 4 (02:46:56):
No?

Speaker 1 (02:46:56):
I don't think so. Okay, good, who's your number one?

Speaker 2 (02:46:58):
How did you think he spoiled it?

Speaker 1 (02:47:00):
I just didn't know if it was someone that I
had already, like, I spoiled your grandmore so, oh, as
I put him low right.

Speaker 2 (02:47:03):
Now, I've been intentionally not saying this gentleman's name. Okay,
we lost this gentleman over the pandemic. Ah, I'm talking
about the late great Dennie O'Neil. He is easily number
one as the greatest Batman writer of all time. If
you don't know who Denny O'Neil is, he's a journalist.
He was a novelist. He eventually came to DC where

(02:47:27):
he write Jla and Wonder Woman. But is when he
partnered with an artist called Neil Adams on Batman, and
you know, he really changed the entire game fun factor.
He also would become the group editor of the Batman
titles and would basically guide the Batman titles from nineteen
eighty six to two thousand.

Speaker 1 (02:47:47):
So can you really quickly, just in case anyone doesn't know,
just explain what the group editor is versus like a
specific book editor.

Speaker 2 (02:47:52):
So basically he would have been in charge of hiring
all the artists and writers and determining saying yes or
no to all the storylines would have happened. So that
means that Denny O'Neill is responsible for hiring Chuck Dixon
and Jeff Lowe. So about half the writers on our

(02:48:12):
list would have been hired by this gentle. So that
also puts him up here in like in number one.
The reason why Dannie O'Neill is number one is not
only is the co creator ros Al Goouhl one of
the best Batman vilams of all time, uh, but he

(02:48:33):
also is the whole reason why certain Frank Miller drew
his first Batman story. Frank Miller's first Batman story was
drawn for the writer Danny O'Neil. So also Dannie O'Neil.
Danny O'Neil responsible for the Dark Knight returns. But here
is the real reason why Denny O'Neill is the number

(02:48:55):
one Batman writer. He also with kind of Stephen Hart,
they were working at the same time, But it was
Denny that really made the shift of Batman from the
nineteen sixty six series to a darker detective adventurer. When

(02:49:15):
Grant Morrison is aping sort of the James Bondian Batman,
it is a combination of the Denny O'Neil and Steve Inglehart.
Steve Engelhart like leaned more into the villains, whereas Denny
leaned more into Batman. His like sort of humanist, darker
adventure Batman that's still a human being is the Bruce

(02:49:37):
Wayne of Batman, the animated series. The Batman. The Bruce
Wayne that you know in Batman anime series is the
Denny O'Neil back.

Speaker 1 (02:49:44):
So, now that you say that, I'm like, yes, yeah, absolutely,
particularly with the timeless quality that the animated series has.

Speaker 2 (02:49:51):
Yes, it is absolutely right, Denny O'Neil. They were aping
Denny O'Neill back the entire tone of Batman the ame
series is Denny O'Neill's Batman. Now again, it's one of
these things where like you may not have read it,
but like now that I say that, I hope you realize,
like that is we Ohe basically all modern Batman to

(02:50:14):
Denny O'Neill, to this single, from Frank Miller to Chuck
Dixon to Batman the anime series, it was all filtered
through Denny O'Neill. He is, without a doubt, and I
don't think he'll ever be beaten. He is, Like I
don't think I think nobody's given even that long a
run on the con I don't think I don't even

(02:50:34):
anything anybody has even shaped the character as much as
he has influence the character. Like, I don't think anybody
will ever beat Denny O'Neil in terms of the greatest
Batman writer. But here's the other kicker of that. You know,
I talk about Batman anime series. Guess who wrote the
two part episode of Batman anime series which introduced Rosall
goul Oh, really, Jenny O'Neill, And I've seen that episode

(02:50:56):
of this is a great two bar Yes.

Speaker 1 (02:50:58):
It's like one of the best two parts of that
entire series. You and I have watched that together several times.
We might watch it today, honestly would love to.

Speaker 2 (02:51:08):
But the great thing about Dannie O'Neil is that, again
you know, this tone is that like his Dark Knight,
unlike Graham Morrison, you know, was not perfect. He wasn't
bat God. He was a great crime fighter, he was
a talented superhero, but he was also a human being.

Speaker 1 (02:51:29):
You know.

Speaker 2 (02:51:30):
He would worry about Robin, he would worry about his girls,
he would worry about Alfred. He wasn't quite the closed
off super dick Batman, I don't care about you anymore.
He was still of human being. But I think primarily
because he was a journalist. I think this is the

(02:51:50):
reason why Denny like really injected a lot of humanity
into Dennie O'Neill is also very responsible for the Bruce
Wayne that we know, and it's my favorite Bruce Wayne
where we've all seen these Batman stories where Bruce meets
this mook or this henchman on the side of the
road and they're like, oh, Batman, I'm sorry. I was

(02:52:12):
just trying to pay for my kids, and Batman hands
them accard and says, go talk to Lucius Fox at
Wayne Enterprise and he'll get you a job.

Speaker 1 (02:52:19):
That's Danny O'Neil. He's the first Batman writer to do
that well because Batman, like I I'm very interested as
an adult in Batman as a community leader and exploring
that because that's what the way, what his parents, like
the Wayne Foundations trying to do and doing things like
that is that's mutual It's not mutual aid, but it's closer.

(02:52:41):
That's grassroots activism. Yeah, it's like giving someone a job
who needs a job.

Speaker 2 (02:52:44):
Well, it's the line. It's like the line from the
Dark Knight Rises movie where Alfred always says, where he's like, well,
why don't you give all your money to the police,
because they could do more good than Batman ever could.
And to be honest with you, that's one hundred percent true.
Although there is a long line in the comic books.
You've seen lots of story. He's in the comic books
where frust Wing does give lots of money.

Speaker 1 (02:53:02):
Or he hosts the gallat or raise money for but that.

Speaker 2 (02:53:05):
Is the actual like all the money that he spends
on Batman would better serve his community if he's spending
on his community instead of him. Yeah, he could just
build some apartment buildings. But as as we've established, he's
not the sanest of people, and he's he has a
lot of trauma that unlike Dick Grayson, perfect baby boy
with a great ass, you know, he hasn't dealt with it,

(02:53:29):
and the only way he deals with it is by
bunching poor people in the streets. But Dennie O'Neill at
least tried to alleviate that. You address it, yeah, because
in the Denny O'Neil runs, you could really see that
Batman loved Dick Grayson and cares for him when he
saw him as a goal he likes. There's a lot
of God, I can't remember the name of it. There's

(02:53:50):
a Christmas story that Dennie O'Neil wrote where it is
very much about a person or a Santa Claus trying
to rob a place and Batman is like, and Batman
helps the man instead of basically punching him the face
and sending him to jail. I'm trying to find it.
I don't know if you're gonna find it with googling.
So it's fine, but every listeners go out there and
you can figure it out. There is a very famous
as an annual. It's a Batman Christmas story where Batman

(02:54:13):
is like chasing an evil Santa Claus. It's not Wanted
Santa Claus Detteroral Alive.

Speaker 4 (02:54:18):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (02:54:18):
I can't tell you. If I saw the comic, I
would I would know it.

Speaker 2 (02:54:21):
So it does. It doesn't matter, but it's out there.
Dennie O'Neil wrote a humanist Batman.

Speaker 1 (02:54:27):
It was called Wanted Santa Claus Detoral Alone or there. Yeah,
I just found Uh.

Speaker 2 (02:54:31):
It's an amazing story. But also Dennie O'Neill influenced almost
at Superman. Actually did We talked about this earlier when
we did Superman the Bronze Age last year.

Speaker 4 (02:54:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:54:46):
Dannie O'Neil wrote Superman Kryptonite No More. Remember that's a
great issue. Yeah, and they gave him that story, by
the way, because of the way he had revitalized Batman,
so they thought he could revitalize Superman too, and he
was okay, he was miley successful. But when it came
to the Batman's Danny O'Neil influenced Batman more than any

(02:55:09):
other person I think in history more than Bob Kine,
more than Bill Fanger. You know, uh, Dannie O'Neil, without
a doubt to me, the greatest Batman writer of all time. Wow,
so there you sty.

Speaker 1 (02:55:24):
Should call you up for that, because the state should
call you up.

Speaker 2 (02:55:28):
Let me give thank you so much. I'm only like,
I'm it's funny. I actually like it's one of the
things where we both worked in DC at the same
time and I never got.

Speaker 1 (02:55:36):
To meet him. Well, you'll meet him in the next
go around.

Speaker 2 (02:55:39):
Yeah, there you go.

Speaker 1 (02:55:40):
I mean that's how I try to think about things.

Speaker 2 (02:55:42):
Were So there you go, everybody out there on GHL podcast,
on our Facebook where Ashley I faced.

Speaker 1 (02:55:50):
A commis ge gistry lesson I was. I almost went
or on Twitter at GHL podcast new Instagram geekist you lasson.

Speaker 2 (02:55:57):
Please let us know who you're lists are. Who do
you think are the top love reading five Batman comic
book writers? And don't forget, We're going to do top
five Batman screenwriters over on our patroon and Patreon dot
com slash Jonin.

Speaker 1 (02:56:12):
But I'll tell you what.

Speaker 2 (02:56:12):
If the patrons love the episode, we'll expand that there's
a lot of great Batman screenwriters let's go into the
recommended reading.

Speaker 1 (02:56:17):
Ashley so at geek History Listen dot com slash recommended reading,
where you can click on the widget steal from daddy
bezos and give them money to us. We're going to
have at least one example from everybody who was mentioned
here today.

Speaker 2 (02:56:29):
Are we going to have a pick or excuse me, yeah,
a pick? A recommended reading pick of something with the
Gotham's best ass on it.

Speaker 1 (02:56:38):
I'm going to say yes and probably forget about it
all right, yes, solutely?

Speaker 2 (02:56:43):
Have you learned anything about this lesson?

Speaker 1 (02:56:44):
Everybody?

Speaker 2 (02:56:45):
I just need you to know that Dick Grayson is
the best ass and the DC in the comics multiverse.

Speaker 1 (02:56:51):
It can stop traffic. Anyways, Do you want to run
down any also rands before we move on to the
honor roll?

Speaker 4 (02:56:57):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (02:56:57):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, I'm trying to think
about There were a couple also written.

Speaker 1 (02:57:04):
Is there anybody that pops in your head real quick?
So I spent a lot of time trying to not
put five white guys on my list, and Gret Morrison
is not a guy, so I'm considering that a win.
But unfortunately, well, Gret Morrison's not a guy. Yeah, Yeah,
they're all white assigned mail at Verse people. Unfortunately, Batman
has not had a huge diversity and people who have

(02:57:25):
written the mainstream title, And as you can tell, we
tried to do people who had written at least detective comics,
if not Batman itself versus like a one off here
and there. I want to give a special shout out
to Devin Grayson because I think Devin Grayson is an
amazing writer. I think she is really underrated.

Speaker 2 (02:57:41):
She has written Batman, She's written more night Wing the Batman,
but yes, yep.

Speaker 1 (02:57:46):
She's written more Golf Knights by the way, freaking great.
She has written more night Wing. She's done some great
stuff on Titans. So I didn't feel like her body
of work on Batman specifically was enough to put her
on the list, but I did want to make sure
that I gave her a shout out.

Speaker 2 (02:57:57):
She's also a lovely Twitter follows. I almost put Bill
Finger on my list. I almost put Paul Deini on
my list. I almost put Peter Tamasi on my list.

Speaker 1 (02:58:11):
I almost put Pete on my list.

Speaker 2 (02:58:13):
Yeah, because his run on Batman and Robin astounding.

Speaker 1 (02:58:16):
Yeah, very good.

Speaker 2 (02:58:17):
And he's also just got off a great run on
Detective Comics as well.

Speaker 1 (02:58:20):
That's right, that did just that.

Speaker 2 (02:58:22):
So you know, Norm Brave Fogel almost popped in there
real quick. I'm just like going throw on the down
list real quick of like other people. But uh yeah,
this was I don't know. I really wanted to go
for like people that popped and pushed the character, because
a lot of writers will come on Batman will tell stories,
but I don't think the character changes at all or there,

(02:58:44):
you know, And and to me, I'm like, you gotta
you got to push. Then there's so much Batman out
there now that you got to push the needle.

Speaker 1 (02:58:52):
I tried to look at the overall quality of their
run as well, versus there are some writers who've written
like one volume that I really like, and then I
think the rest of their run is just kind of okay.
I tried to pick people where I thought they were
consistently of a certain quality level across their word.

Speaker 2 (02:59:07):
Yeah, there you go.

Speaker 1 (02:59:09):
Yeah, and then obviously nobody who's writing Batman right at
this time, because that's not fair, you are kind.

Speaker 2 (02:59:13):
No, no, no, you can't judge anybody that's currently writing
Batman because we can't tell exactly so you know we'll
learn that in the future.

Speaker 1 (02:59:19):
Yeah, there you go.

Speaker 2 (02:59:20):
All right, Hello and welcome to Geek History Lesson. I
am Jason from Smallville Inman. I am Asha Victoria Robinson.

Speaker 1 (02:59:31):
Welcome to your Mind University because you have stumbled onto
the podcast where retake one character construct or list from
popular culture and teach you everything you need to know
about it in about an hour. And it's list time again.

Speaker 2 (02:59:44):
Yes, and this is going to be a really good
one because everybody that listens to this podcast know that,
as a boy from small town, Kansas, how much I
love Superman. And we have the CW Superman and Lowis
that is soon to be incoming. So we decided that
this was a great week to talk about the best
Superman stories, and for that list, we decided to bring

(03:00:05):
in a very special guest. He is the current Not
Bitter writer's assistant on Superman and Lois. He is the
writer of the Crisis on Infinite teen dramas, and he
is the author of Michael Effingbay Plus. He writes a
little blog that you might have heard about for years
if you were in sort of the Hollywood circles, the
Bitterscriptreader dot blogspot dot com He is Adam Mallinger. Welcome

(03:00:29):
to the podcast, sir.

Speaker 4 (03:00:31):
Thank you guys for having me on. This is gonna
be a fun one.

Speaker 2 (03:00:33):
I think, I really think this is going to be
a good one because you know, and we'll talk about
this more that from your Twitter, I followed you for
several years. You are a big Superman fan. Can I
ask you where did your fandom with Superman start?

Speaker 4 (03:00:49):
I don't actually know, Uh, it's that long. Like I
know that my first introduction was not the Christopher Ree film.
I think it must have been the super Friends cartoon
and the Superpower's action figures, because I have a very
vivid memory of watching the Christopher reefilm for the first
time while playing with the Superman action figures. And so

(03:01:12):
I also have a comic book from nineteen eighty three
that I'm pretty sure is my first comic book ever.
So I would have been three then, So I'm guessing
somewhere around the time I was three, I was watching
cartoons and it started with like the old super Friends show,
but very quickly that spread to chrispher Reeve. And then
around nineteen eighty six was when I was started getting
the comic books regularly and pretty much bought the comics regularly,

(03:01:36):
Like as we'll talk probably later, there's a point where
like the books were coming out almost every week and more.
The very famous Triangle, the Triangle era, Yeah there is.
My aunt had gotten me the John Byrne relaunch in
nineteen eighty six. She bought me the Man of Steel
mini series that relaunched. I got all of that at once,
and so that was like a perfect starting point. And

(03:01:56):
then for like the next two years after that, whenever
I could convince my parents to buy me as stray
issue here or there, I would pick it up. And
the storyline that was the turning point for me where
like I was finally able to buy it week to
week is a storyline at the start of nineteen eighty
nine called Exile, and from that point on until the
New fifty two in twenty eleven, I bought every mainline
Superman comic between there. So that's the fandom that we'll

(03:02:21):
bring into the backwalk here.

Speaker 1 (03:02:22):
I just want to say that that is such a
pure and sweet and like too good for this world
origin story for you in Superman, and I think very
appropriate for this hero.

Speaker 2 (03:02:31):
Well, that just means that we're going to have a
very awesome conversation. I think I love that especially. I
love that you are a true blue fan, and also
you are assisting the writing staff, and I believe you
even got to write a script yourself of the newest
iteration of Superman.

Speaker 1 (03:02:45):
So that's going to be really great. That's right.

Speaker 4 (03:02:47):
I am writing an episode and literally like I was
working on the script today for the episode.

Speaker 2 (03:02:54):
Oh man, if you would have told me you were
on script today, I would have said that, you know,
we can delay this.

Speaker 1 (03:03:00):
Oh no, no, no, no, no, no no.

Speaker 4 (03:03:01):
This is this was perfect after the week that has
been going on here, that was nice to kind of
you know, I'm glad to finish my day job with
Superman so I can hop on the internet and talk
about Superman. Great.

Speaker 2 (03:03:11):
All right, well this is gonna I think this is
going to be a great episode. All right, listeners. As
you know with our previous lists, this is everyone's personal favorites,
not the objective best. And also, don't forget to tell
us your top five Superman stories on our social media's
Ashley where can they do that?

Speaker 1 (03:03:27):
In case they forgot, they can do that at geekistory
lesson dot com, Facebook dot com, slash geekistory lesson or
on Twitter at GHL podcast because geekstory lesson was too
many letters. All right, so here we go.

Speaker 2 (03:03:38):
We're going to start with our number five's best Superman story.
Ashley went on, do you kick off this list?

Speaker 1 (03:03:45):
So my number five, I'm going to give you the
official title, and since you two are the Superman stands
of this show, I want to see if either of
you knows what the storyline is. It is Superman Annual
number eleven from nineteen eighty five.

Speaker 2 (03:04:01):
Is that the US Everything?

Speaker 4 (03:04:04):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (03:04:05):
Yeah, I thought I was being real cute and real clever.
So when we were when we decided to do this list,
this was immediately on my shortlist. This is for the
Man who Has Everything, written by Alan Moore with art
by Dave Gibbons. Most people are probably familiar with it
from the two thousand and four Justice League, the animated
series adaptation also titled for the Man Who Has Everything,

(03:04:26):
which kind of takes the storyline given to Superman and
expands it out to some up the rest of the
Justice League and then CW Supergirl also did a version
of the story, which I thought was really really cool.
They did, Yes, they did This is the story of
the Black Mercy, which TLDR is an alien plant bad
guy who comes and imprints itself in Superman's chest. They

(03:04:46):
develop a symbiotic relationship and Superman lives out in Elseworld's
tale for all intentsive porpoises of what it would have
been like if it'd stayed on Krypton, and we get
to engage in that thought experiment, and because it is
Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons, it is one of the
most beautiful and I mean that emotionally and graphically versions
of what if kal El had stayed on Krypton that

(03:05:08):
we get to see. There are super babies, there are
headbands everywhere, and then Superman has to reconcile with what
that knowledge is going to be carried forth as he
continues on on Earth as the last son of Krypton.
And when you read this issue, when you revisit this issue,
like I did for this lesson, it's definitely eighties is
all get out. It is very of the time, but

(03:05:30):
it still transcends, and I think it is the quintessential
version of this thought experiment. So I had to put
it on my list, and I decided to kick off
my number five. But the story that's older than I am.
I think that's a great choice. It definitely deserves recognition
in a top five percent. Adam, all right, we're gonna

(03:05:52):
we're gonna kick it off to your number five now, Okay.

Speaker 4 (03:05:55):
So I do want to quickly explain my methodology and
my five picks, because I have a bone to pick
with a lot of best of lists for characters where
people tend to pick out of continuity stories and it
always leaves the impression that, like, the good stuff can't
be done in the weekly or the ongoing storyline reach.
So I limited myself to one out of mainline continuity

(03:06:18):
pick and that is my number five. And it is
a graphic novel that started as a mini series called
Superman's Secret Identity, written by Kurt Busick. Beautiful art by
Steve Imminin, and it almost looks painted. It's a really
different technique they've got for the art here. And the
hook for this story is, if I can sound a

(03:06:38):
little like Patrick Stewart on extras, what if this was
the real world. What if Clark Kent existed in the
real world, not in the comic book world, but the
real world, And This is a guy growing up in
Kansas named Clark Kent in a world where Superman is
a fictional character, so essentially our world. And when he's
a teenager, he wakes up one day and he discovers
he has powers. And it's all about how you become

(03:07:02):
Superman in a world where everyone knows Superman is a
fictional character and your name is Clark Kent, so you've
been teased about it your entire life. And it is
a beautiful emotional story that takes us through about four
stages of this guy's life. Chapter one is him as
a teenager. We see him as an adult meeting a
woman named of course Lois, and you know, later in

(03:07:22):
life as he becomes a parent, and then as a
much older man, and it's really got the spirit of
Superman in it, even though it's not the real Superman.
I understand that Busic was very much inspired by super
Boy from Earth Prime, who is a part of Crisis
and who since the story has come out, has kind
of gone crazy and it's a bad guy. But it's
a really beautiful story kind of about like one man

(03:07:45):
and him as a parent. Him is you know, how
he impacts the world because he eventually starts operating as Superman,
usually in secret. He kind of becomes like an urban myth.
And I would recommend this almost just on the basis
of the art alone, but the story is fantastic and
I think it's honestly my favorite thing Krip Music is written.

Speaker 1 (03:08:02):
I'm so glad that you put this on your list,
because this was on my initial list and then I
bumped it, so I'm glad that it is getting some love.
We have talked about this a lot on the podcast.

Speaker 2 (03:08:11):
This is on my list, but I won't say where
are you?

Speaker 1 (03:08:13):
Okay, Okay, Well, in the spirit of keeping cryptic, Jason,
what's your number five?

Speaker 2 (03:08:19):
My number five is a story that I think a
lot of people don't know about, and Adam, I thought
that's a very fair choice. I too, I wanted to
think about stories, especially for Superman, that really represented what
I feel about the character, and for me, Superman is
always very inspirational and very uplifting, and so I was

(03:08:42):
trying to go for a lot of stories like that.
So I'm sorry, and no knock on either one of
you in if you have Superman red Son, but Superman
red Sun is not on my list because you know,
it's not very uplifting to me. So number five for
Me is an issue from nineteen fifty five. It is
Superman number ninety six, The Girl who Didn't Believe in Superman,

(03:09:06):
And this is written by Batman co creator Bill finger Icon.
The artist is Wayne Boring, and this is basically the
story about Alice Norton, who is a young blind girl.
She's younger than ten years old. I think she's eight
is what they say in the story. But she doesn't
believe that Superman exists because she cannot see him. So

(03:09:29):
he does it's this all, this the whole story. So
he flies her around and she's like, that could just
be a fan, and he bids he binds things up
and she's like, well, that could be a trick. She
thinks everything he does is a trick. So he goes
through like all of his superpowers and everything, and then
finally Superman sort of gets a little frustrated because he's like,
I don't know how to prove to this girl that

(03:09:50):
I'm real and that I can do these things, and
I want to help her. And then the X Raiser
and he realizes that he may know a way to
store her sight and so of course, the solution he
comes up with, which I don't want to give away
here in case anybody wants to read this story, is
the solution that only silver age Superman would come up with.

(03:10:12):
But this leads to this epic story of Alice Norton
becoming famous in the paper of the Daily the Daily Planet,
and all the Daily Planet readers sending her people or
suiting her family money and her mother money, and they
become famous, and it basically changes Alice's life for the

(03:10:32):
for the better in ways that you will never predict.
And I just love it because it's this charming little
tale about faith and healing and growing up. And yes,
it has very religious overtones, but that's fine because, like
I always think that Superman is the dream of all
of us. He's our dreams and our inspirations, and I
love that Superman, no matter what, will never stop trying

(03:10:55):
to help us. And that's everything in this story, and
I just think it's kind of great that it's written
the co creator Batman wrote one of the best Superman stories.
I was going to say religious overtones in a Moses
analog never but Superman number ninety six from nineteen fifty
five The Girl who Didn't believe in Superman is my
number five.

Speaker 1 (03:11:15):
And I'm just pointing this out because I can see
Jason's notes. He even did the research where you can
find this story in print. Yeah, a shout out to that.

Speaker 2 (03:11:21):
Well, it's only ever been reprinted in Superman in the fifties,
which is completely out of print right now.

Speaker 1 (03:11:27):
But it does exist. It does exist.

Speaker 2 (03:11:29):
So Ashley, this is this is already a better list
than I thought I was going to be. What is
your number four?

Speaker 1 (03:11:35):
Well, I'm so glad that you started the Superman being
good to children because for me, that's definitely a trend
after the Black Mercy story in a lot of my picks,
and I think that is one of the reasons why
he resonates. And I picked a digital first issue from
twenty fourteen written by somebody who has become a friend
of ours that Jason I have referenced ad Nauseaum. In fact,

(03:11:56):
if you go back to the first year of geek history,
lesson and check out our if we can DC Comics,
I believe we put him as the head of the
Bat family, and that is Dear Superman written by Josh
Elder with art by Victor Ivanez. I apologize for my
anglicized pronunciation of your name. And it is a story
where Superman fights Matallo and Metropolis who get the fighty fighty.

Speaker 2 (03:12:18):
But it is about.

Speaker 1 (03:12:19):
Children in a cancer ward and their letters to Superman,
and it is about Superman trying to do his best
by each and every one of them. It is the
first Superman story that ever made me cry. It's one
of the first Superman stories I ever read, because I
was an avowed Superman is lame comic book reader until
I met Jason Inman and then he proved me wrong,
I'm happy to say. And it is the Superman story

(03:12:43):
that to me is quintessentially Superman, because yes he does
the big fighting fighting, yes he does the punch him ups,
but he is here to help the people who need
the help most as personified by children. And when you
know that Josh Elder did battle cancer himself, I think
it makes a story even more touching and even more appointing.

(03:13:03):
It It's a story that I would love to see adapted,
I think into like an animated episode. I think it
would be really beautiful there and I would have been
remiss if just with my own relationship with the character
if I didn't add that to this. And I also
think it speaks to the fact that sometimes when you
look at publishing from the Big two, I think we
like to poo poo digital first stories and this goes

(03:13:24):
I think up there with all a lauded stories and
should we celebrated. So Dear Superman is my number four.

Speaker 2 (03:13:30):
It's such a great choice. This almost made my list.
This is from the Adventures of Superman digital series. Adam.
I don't know if you've Oh, okay, it's really good.
They reprinted it. It's and they're sort of bringing that back.

Speaker 4 (03:13:41):
It's got a.

Speaker 1 (03:13:42):
Great Sean Galloway whose name is Cheeks. His artist same
of Cheeks.

Speaker 2 (03:13:46):
It's got great coverage, and I want to let the
listeners know. Fun fact, the reason why we're now friends
with Josh Elder is because I read the USA Today
article that was covering the story. I read the story.
I was so moved by this story that I emailed
Josh blind and just compliment and was like, this is amazing.
Stuff like that, and that struck up the friendship and

(03:14:07):
we're still friends with him to this day. But Dear
Superman is almost if I were to do a number six,
This would be my number. Yeah, yeah, it's really really good.
All right, Adam, what is your number four?

Speaker 1 (03:14:19):
Okay?

Speaker 4 (03:14:20):
I wanted to pick something that was representative of the
Rebirth era in twenty sixteen when they sort of relaunched,
And this is an arrow of stories for those who
don't know, with Clark and Lois and their ten year
old son John Kent living in Smallville. And so the
issue I've picked is Superman seven from twenty sixteen. So
if you're looking on Comixology, look for like the twenty

(03:14:41):
sixteen date, and it's an issue called Our Town and
it's a simple one where Clark wants to take the
family to the fair to do some family time and
he has made a deal with Leis he is not
going to turn into Superman no matter what happens. And
so it's a fun little character issue with the Kent family,
you know, going to to the fair, riding the rides,

(03:15:02):
interacting with the residents of Smallville, and towards the end,
some shenanigans happened with some criminals and Superman. Clark has
to slip away and be Superman without being Superman. And
it's I'm making it sound like maybe the most boring
thing in the world. But I just love that Superman
is a character where you can do these kind of
one off issues that don't have to have a villain,

(03:15:22):
and that you can kind of do these family stories,
these heartwarming stories, and it doesn't feel out of place,
Like I sort of struggle to imagine a writer who
would be able to do that with Batman and not
have Batman fans coming after them.

Speaker 1 (03:15:34):
And this I just I love it.

Speaker 4 (03:15:36):
It's my favorite issue of Rebirth, and I think it's
really representative of kind of like the family style that
Rebirth opened up when you give Clark and Lois a kid,
and the TV show Superman and Lois, we're not doing rebirth,
but I feel like there's a lot of similar DNA
in there. The kids are older, we have two kids
on our show. Like, it's not the exact same thing.
So don't want to leave people with no I'm just

(03:16:00):
I'm very very careful that nothing I say here will
be news to anybody. It might be well, if you're
following everything, nothing I say will be news. I might
say something that's been reported, but it's been out there.

Speaker 2 (03:16:11):
If they were Jonathan and Jordan like it was reported
when they were cass.

Speaker 1 (03:16:14):
Yeah, oh yeah, we do have.

Speaker 4 (03:16:17):
We have sort of that kind of DNA in the show.
And I think if you're a fan of rebirth, you
probably will enjoy some of the stuff we're doing. But
I don't want to give the impression that like what
we're doing is specifically based on rebirth, but it does have.
It is the kind of story that I enjoy and
the kind of thing when we were in the room,
I would always be pushing for, can we do something
like this issue? So that is my number four right there?
Superman seven, So if.

Speaker 1 (03:16:38):
I may please, my entire number three is basically the
Tamasi Gleason Superman rebirth.

Speaker 2 (03:16:45):
Oh you in my own family.

Speaker 1 (03:16:46):
Yeah, But I specifically in my notes mentioned this issue,
So when Adam brought it up, I was like, I've
got to just tack onto it because it's gonna be
my next choice anyway. And one of the best things
I think about super Man, and it's something that everyone
in fandom loves to discuss, is that I believe he
is clerk Kent. I believe that it is his true identity.

(03:17:08):
I have different feelings about Batman and marrying him and
giving him a child with something that I didn't know
that I needed. But literally the second I saw the
original concept art of Jonathan Ken, I was like.

Speaker 2 (03:17:17):
I love this boy.

Speaker 1 (03:17:18):
I don't know who he is, he's perfect. I love
supersuns and I think that the Tamasi and Gleason run
in particular is really powerful, and this issue sums up
what is so special about him and why I think
he's still relevant to a modern crowd, because Superman can
definitely feel like a character with one foot in the
past from when he was created. And a fun fact,

(03:17:40):
mister jasonmon know it's a piece of original art from
the Superman Rebirth run. Well that's only because it was
a gift from you, That's right, But.

Speaker 2 (03:17:49):
I thank you for that. You know, I want to Superman.
The Superman Rebirth run is not on my list, but
you guys, how dare you?

Speaker 4 (03:17:57):
Well?

Speaker 2 (03:17:59):
You know what, I just feel lucky that Superman has
such a bountiful number of great stories that I actually
had to be very choosy about what made on this list,
and this one was another one that almost made it
on there. And Adam, I want to go back to
your point, because there is another standalone series or stand alone.
A couple of issues in that run that I love
as well. I love the one where they go on

(03:18:20):
the field trip and they go to the Civil War cemeteries. Yes, yes,
and that's the one that really hit to me. But
you're if I were to name like a specific point
out of that entire run, like Superman seven, especially how
it ends on the Ferris Wheel, is so genius with that.
Jorge him and his art especially he drew that. The

(03:18:41):
art and the entire run is fantastic. That was, Yeah,
I was remiss in not giving the credits.

Speaker 4 (03:18:46):
I should say it was Pete Tomasi and Patrick Leeson
writing and Jorge, I mean as on art and he's
great with facial expressions. I'm looking at that page right
now where they're on the roller coaster, and what happens
is there's over the loud speaker they're hearing about that
something was swarted by some guy in costume, and Lois
is realizing that Superman, you know, broke his promise, and

(03:19:07):
Clark is kind of getting like this embarrassed, like, oh,
I've been caught. Look, and it's a progression of panels
that I wish I could show the picture up there
right now, but it's it's great. I'm sorry, I'm sidetracking us.

Speaker 1 (03:19:18):
I will grab it and I will definitely put it
on the social media. But I also believe this was
one of Jorge and Menez's first forays in DC rebirth,
because he was drawing supersions and supercents kept get getting
pushed back. So this was like one of his first
times I believed drawing one of the regular series. And
now he's like the King of Superman.

Speaker 2 (03:19:35):
In again because yeah, because he was the villain. It
was him and Doug Monkey in the film. Another icon
when Patrick couldn't draw the issues. Yeah, great, great, I.

Speaker 1 (03:19:44):
Believe that rounds out to being Jason's number four.

Speaker 2 (03:19:47):
Isn't next? Now we need to learn yes, my number four,
because we already know what.

Speaker 1 (03:19:49):
Your number three is. Correct.

Speaker 2 (03:19:51):
Ye, my number four is front of from one of
my favorite Superman ongoing series of all time, and I
think an underrated super ongoing series, and that is specifically
Superman Adventures number forty one. This is a story called
twenty two stories in a single bound.

Speaker 4 (03:20:12):
Now.

Speaker 2 (03:20:13):
Superman Adventures is one of DC's tie in books. It
tightens specifically to the Bruce Tims Superman the animated series,
and this was, you know, an all ages book. Every
issue was a done in one and a lot of
people don't know this, but Mark Miller, writer of the
Ultimates and later kick Ass and Hack Gritty Colic book writer,

(03:20:35):
his first DC work is writing for Superman Adventures and
this was his final issue on Superman Adventures. And so
what he decided to do is he did a clever
collection of one page stories drawn by a variety of
different artists, including Darwin Cook of DC New Frontier, who

(03:20:55):
also designed the title sequence for Batman.

Speaker 3 (03:20:57):
Bey.

Speaker 2 (03:20:57):
Yes, so it really comes a sweet and hopeful collection
of basically the secret weapon of Superman's storytelling, and that
is the secret oapmon of the Superman storytelling, I think
is his supporting cast and the city of Metropolis. There
every supporting cast member gets a page, including Lobo. You
have the story of Jimmy Olsen facing down one of

(03:21:19):
his fears. And then the page that put this on
the list for me was the page that perfectly defined
Superman to me. The last page of the issue. This
is slight spoilers for an issue that came out in
the year two thousand, but the final page shows the
dreams of everyone in the Superman supporting cast, like Jimmy
is dreaming that like he's rich and him and Superman

(03:21:39):
are having the best day ever. And when it cuts
to Superman, they show an empty bed and the curtain
moving like he Superman just flew out the window to
go save somebody, because at midnight he's he's not dreaming,
he's out helping us. And so that's for me, everything
you need to know about Superman. And that's why twenty
two stories in a single bound never been collected. As

(03:22:01):
far as I know, Superman Adventures number forty one is
my number four. Also, I mean to be very debatable
whether Superman needs to sleep or not.

Speaker 1 (03:22:09):
Oh that's fair. You know, that's another ongoing I think
geek debate. That's fair. Okay, So for number three is mine,
I already said is like rebirth Superman the glease into
mossy stuff. So I think that punts it back to Adam.

Speaker 4 (03:22:22):
Okay, So what we've got here is if you follow
me on Twitter, I'm big about like the individual episode
as being something that we're slipping away from, like doing
a standalone episode. So I want to I'm with you,
brother had the whole standalone issues, and so I had
the last one, and this one is possibly my favorite

(03:22:42):
Superman standalone issue. It is Superman sixty four from the
cover night of February ninety two, but it came out
in December of ninety one. And this is an issue
about Superman answering his fan mail on Christmas Eve every year.

Speaker 2 (03:22:59):
You know this, Oh, it's so good Man.

Speaker 4 (03:23:01):
He's written by Dan Jurgons, who I've tried to verify
this fact some official way, and I can't do the
exact numbers on this, but as far as I can tell,
and I even asked Dan himself, I think Dan has
written more Superman stories than anybody alive. So written by
Dan Jurgens, art by Jackson Geice, who must be filling
in because Dan was usually the artist on this book.

(03:23:23):
Dan must have been doing something else at the time.
But it's every year Superman goes to the Metropolis Post
Office and letters from fans and there's a lot of
they not and they're like, some of these people are
people who just want, you know, him to go look
for bury treasure.

Speaker 1 (03:23:37):
Some get rich quick.

Speaker 4 (03:23:38):
But the heart of the story is the difference that
Superman can make for individual people. Like he gets a
letter from a boy who his father needs a heart transplant,
and you know, the doctors say there's no chance will survive,
but I know that Superman can save him. And it's
Superman going and having to talk to this boy and
talk about what he can and what he can't do,
and doing a couple other like good deeds or warming

(03:24:00):
holiday deeds, all the stuff you would expect out of
a holiday story. But I think it's it's the perfect
Superman story again without a villain, because it speaks to
him as an inspirational figure, and it's about the good
you could do in this world if you were Superman,
beyond just punching villains. And it's also a special one

(03:24:20):
because what I did for the Superman and Lewis writing
staff this Christmas is I got copies of this issue
for everyone, and Dan Jurgens was very nice enough that
I mailed it to him and he signed and personalized
each of those copies for the writing staff and the
supporting staff on Superman and Lois, so everybody got a
nice little Christmas gift.

Speaker 2 (03:24:42):
I ask you a follow up qush on that, yes,
because I know Dan lives in Minnesota or Michigan, Minnesota, Minnesota.
So how when did you When did you mail those
off to him? I sent that to him.

Speaker 4 (03:24:58):
It was like the first week in November. I had
the idea that Clover and yeah, yeah, no, I had
the idea in October and I emailed him and I said, hey,
I had this idea, Dan, could if I sent these
to you, would you would it be you know, too
much trouble to do? This is no, absolutely, And so
then I went on eBay and fortunately there were exactly

(03:25:18):
the same number of copies between eBay and Amazon of
this issue that I needed for everyone. Like I was,
I ended up with one extra cost, like a Christmas miracle.
It was a Christmas miracle. And so then I was
waiting miracle exactly. And so for the next two weeks
I was just waiting for these to come in from
various places. And once I had him, I just box
him up and sent him to Dan and he was,

(03:25:38):
you know, nice enough to do that, and he sent
it back to me with more than enough time. And uh,
the staff all got a very nice unexpected gift this year.

Speaker 1 (03:25:46):
I know. I saw that on Twitter, and I and
I and I and I thought it was a genius gift.
I also want to say that, like long term listeners
of The Kiss Realisa know that we also had Dan
Jurgens lending his talents and his time to Our Joes
charity drive for service members this year, and like he's
truly a good hearted sweet man. So there's no wonder

(03:26:07):
that he has made such an imprint I think on Superman.
Dan Jurgen's actual Superman. I'm saying it right now.

Speaker 2 (03:26:13):
I believe it.

Speaker 1 (03:26:14):
Have you ever seen him in the seventh place? I haven't,
now that you mention it, No, but nicest guy in
the world.

Speaker 4 (03:26:21):
Dan is fantastic and he was one of the first
people to congratulate me when I got hired on Superman.

Speaker 1 (03:26:25):
Actually, oh, that's really cool.

Speaker 2 (03:26:27):
All right, So I believe Adam, that was your number three?

Speaker 1 (03:26:29):
Correct? That was number three?

Speaker 4 (03:26:30):
Correct?

Speaker 1 (03:26:31):
All right? Cool?

Speaker 2 (03:26:32):
Now we move to my number three. This is the
most recent addition in the chronology of Superman stories on
my list. This is a story that I read last year,
and especially in the terms of twenty twenty. And you know,
twenty twenty, I think was a difficult year for every
single person in the world, But this was a story
that put a smile on my face. This was a

(03:26:52):
story that made me cry. And this story is Superman
Smashes the Klan. This is by Jean Luyn Yang and
a name that it's going to be very difficult for
me to pronounce, but I'm going to try it anyway. Guhiru,
I think it's Guri Hero. Guri Hero longtime a collaborator
of Jeans. Actually they did the Avatar books together. Yes,

(03:27:13):
this is the Harvey Award winner for Best Children or
Young Adult Book of last Year. Basically, it is the
year as nineteen forty six, and teenagers Roberta and Tommy
Lee have just moved with their parents from Chinatown to
the center of Metropolis, the home of the famous superhero Superman,
and Tommy makes friends quickly while Roberta pines for home.
And then one night, the family awakens to find their

(03:27:34):
home surrounded by the clan of the Fiery Cross. Superman
leaps into action, but his exposure to a mysterious green
rock has left him weak, and can Roberta and Tommy
help him smash the clan. When I first heard about
this book, this book actually made my list as Best
Comic Book for last year on a previous podcast and

(03:27:54):
I did not expect this book to emotionally affect me
as much as it did. But I think this is
one of those books that is like the right time
and the right place because the ending with Roberta and
Superman brought tears to my eye. And this is one
of the best because I honestly, when I first heard
about this book, I thought they were just going to

(03:28:14):
kind of retell the story of the radio plays, of
the Superman radio plays where they revealed all the secrets
of the Ku Klux Klan. And Gen Yang is a
brilliant writer, and he's a brilliant children's writer, and he's
a brilliant Superman writer, and of course he took it
to another level. He made it to a level that
made Superman timely, It made Superman with an emotional punch.

(03:28:35):
And also, this really does feel like the nineteen thirties
nineteen forties Superman, but it doesn't feel dated at any point,
and that is why it easily climbed to the top
of my list for best Superman stories. And Adam, if
you have not read this book, I highly recommend it immediately.

Speaker 4 (03:28:52):
I read it within the last two months. Because our
writer's pa is a massive Superman nerd like me, and
he said, You've got to read this story, and so
I made a point of checking that one out. Everything
you said is true. It is a great story.

Speaker 2 (03:29:07):
Nice all right, Ashley, We're down to the number two.

Speaker 1 (03:29:11):
This is a book that I read literally yesterday because,
as I mentioned on the podcast previously, I am in
a book club that focuses on reading things for social
justice and for awareness, and so my turn to pitch
something to read is coming up.

Speaker 2 (03:29:30):
I got March on the.

Speaker 1 (03:29:32):
Ticket last year, and so I said, well, you know,
Jason's Superman Smashes the Client is really good, so I
should probably read that. I'm also just like a diehard
Genyang fan, so there was no way. I also want
to say that I am a huge fan of the
DC Kids line, Jason. I've been saying for a while,

(03:29:53):
and it's some of the most exciting comics consistently coming
out of DC right now at the time of this recording,
and I will say that I disproportionately see women reading it.
But when this book came out, every grown man I
know who loves Superman took to the internet to say
I was in actual tears.

Speaker 2 (03:30:11):
This book is amazing.

Speaker 1 (03:30:13):
Please read it. Like this book of everything that I'm
going to recommend, I think transcends the most and it
made me cry, which is no great feat because literally
everything in the world makes me cry. But this is
I think Superman Smashes the Clan is a book that
is going to be lauded for a long long time.
It's a very special book. I don't have a ton

(03:30:35):
to add besides what Jason already said, So I'm really
glad that between Jason and Adam, they've done some heavy
lifting for me in terms of my description. So I'm
just gonna fold here and ask our great guest what
his number two is?

Speaker 4 (03:30:48):
My number two is? Okay?

Speaker 2 (03:30:49):
This we have the main events Superman Smashes the Clan, not.

Speaker 4 (03:30:53):
Superman Smashes a Plan.

Speaker 1 (03:30:55):
No.

Speaker 2 (03:30:57):
I told you.

Speaker 4 (03:30:58):
I wanted to showcase the Regular Continent. This is the
ultimate epic of the continuity I grew up with. I
am picking Reign of the Superman A Superman, which is
the mega Return of Superman epic from nineteen ninety three.
It spanned issues I've got this in front of me
Action Comics six eighty seven through six ninety two, Man

(03:31:19):
of Steel twenty two through twenty six Superman seventy eight
through eighty two Adventures of Superman five oh one to
five oh five currently available. The part of the story
is it's in two trades. One is named Rain of
the Superman, one is Return of Superman. They're both the
story that was originally published as Reign of the Superman,
and this is how Superman comes back to life after

(03:31:41):
he dies in Doomsday Excuse Me Sorry, written by Roger Stern,
Dan Jurgens, Louis Simonson, and Carl Keesel art by Dan
Jurgens and Brett Breeding, Tom Grummand and Doug Hazelwood, Jackson Guyson,
Dennis Rodier, John Danov and Dennis Jenky. Okay, but this
is what kicks off with the story start Superman's dead.

(03:32:04):
There are four guys running around Metropolis, each laying claim
to his legacy in some way. There's a cyborg that
seems to be Superman rebuilt. There's a brutal vigil ante
type who tends to be know like the last son
of Krypton. There is a teenage clone called Superboy, and
there's a guy in a steel suit. And this storyline

(03:32:25):
as we go through in the revelations of which one
is Superman, Where Superman is, where he's coming back, who
they're fighting, builds on so much continuity that had been
accumulating in the books for the previous five years. It
was like watching a season six finale and realizing that
the first five seasons had dropped all the pieces that
made this possible. And then it becomes the launching point

(03:32:45):
for so much more of the continuity in the nineties,
as Steel and Superboy spin off into their own titles.
I think it's the defining book of the nineties for Superman.
I think it is this writer artist team at their best.
There's some wonderful misdirects here to keep us from the
real thing, and it's a story that reminds us why
Superman is important by taking him away from us for
the first half, and then he comes back and reclaims

(03:33:08):
his mantle and takes out somebody who has tarnished his name.
Let's say so, it's.

Speaker 1 (03:33:14):
All to say. Because it's also so iconic. They made
it into an animated movie, which is great more than once. Yes,
that's true, very true.

Speaker 4 (03:33:24):
I haven't seen the second one. The first one was
such a loose adaptation that I'm like, it's almost even.

Speaker 2 (03:33:29):
Really, I go to convince you to watch the second
one right now, because they did it and as a
two parter they did it as a Death of Superman
and Reign of the Superman. Death of Superman is written
by Peter J. Tomassi. It's excellent. And then Rain of
the Superman is written by Tim Sheridan, who has worked
on a bunch of the other animated shows, and he
wrote recently that nwis I think Superman for Tomorrow Man
of Tomorrow?

Speaker 1 (03:33:49):
Yes, yes, I.

Speaker 2 (03:33:53):
Quite liked the remake sort of animated sequels than the
original one.

Speaker 1 (03:33:57):
But man, you're correct. This is.

Speaker 2 (03:34:02):
That storyline has probably defined Superman more so in the
last thirty years than any other storyline.

Speaker 1 (03:34:09):
It also spins out a bunch of great characters who
should always have their own books, like Steel.

Speaker 4 (03:34:14):
Yes, and you're a Steel fan, huge John Not John Kent,
gonna murder me, John Henry Connor Kent fan.

Speaker 1 (03:34:22):
I do love John Kent.

Speaker 4 (03:34:23):
Don't kill me for that either, But like I love
the Leather Jacket super Bowl, I love Connor Kent, and
I'm glad that Bend has brought him back lately.

Speaker 1 (03:34:30):
But yeah, this is for me.

Speaker 4 (03:34:31):
This is everything that a Superman story was in my
teenage years. This was, you know, the perfect Superman story
with some of the greatest art teams I think that
have ever been on Superman.

Speaker 2 (03:34:41):
And if you buy the Omnibus, it can be used
as a weapon against criminals you break into your house.

Speaker 1 (03:34:45):
That's definitely. It is heavy.

Speaker 2 (03:34:47):
That's the only reason I have a body because it
is large well.

Speaker 4 (03:34:51):
And there are some printings of the Omnibus that are
missing issues, yes, and missing pieces of issues, so I
think they fixed it in the latest printing of it,
where wh that you finally do truly have everything. But
the version I have is I have all five trades
where they've got Doomsday and one funeral for a friend
which also almost made this list, and another the two
parts here Reign of the Superman and Return of Superman

(03:35:13):
and sort of Doomsday as like the epilogue too, and
they have a.

Speaker 2 (03:35:16):
Cool like doesn't if you line them up on yourself.

Speaker 1 (03:35:18):
I think they make the s shield and the spine right.

Speaker 4 (03:35:20):
They do the Bleeding s shield from the Doomsday storyline,
the Bleeding Ish.

Speaker 1 (03:35:24):
If you own the original copies of this, don't take
them to a comic bookstore.

Speaker 2 (03:35:29):
That's the end of my PSA. They're not worth anything.
They printed so many of them. I will say that. Luckily,
a couple of years ago we because I mentioned it
on a podcast talking about this storyline, and I, luckily
very kind. I cannot remember who I think it was,
mister Tom trainor I could be wrong. A great listener
of this podcast. He sent me a signed Dan Jergens

(03:35:50):
Brett breeding signed Superman seventy five. We have to see
that's something. Yes, yes, it's worth I.

Speaker 4 (03:35:56):
Have three of those.

Speaker 2 (03:35:57):
Ahright, Let's go to my number two, and I adam
I didn't know about the incontinuity rules that my other
two are out of continuity, but I don't care.

Speaker 1 (03:36:09):
I don't care.

Speaker 4 (03:36:10):
I'm worried I'm going to break one of your rules
with my number one.

Speaker 1 (03:36:13):
So it's all good.

Speaker 2 (03:36:14):
It's all good suggestions, they're not really my two. Number
two is all Star Superman, and the reason why it's
my number two is well, let's first this is this is,
of course, Grant, Morrison and Frank Quietly's brilliant vision of
the Man of Steel. Of course, the the credits for
this are inked by Jamie Grant, letter by Phil Bowsman

(03:36:37):
and Traus Lanham and the Colors with Jamie Grant, and
this is sort of an out of continuity, incontinuity Labors
of Hercules of Superman as he sort of reinstates all
the bonkers silver age super paraphernalia, the multiple reboots, the
multiple crisis is this is Grant Morrison doing the thing
that he does all the time, where basically it's like

(03:36:58):
everything that ever happened into Superman, including Electric Superman, gets
referenced in this story and it's like it all happened
to Superman. And this story starts out with the single
best recap of Superman's origin that has ever been done.
It was done so well that it was basically lifted

(03:37:19):
word for word in the Man of Steel movie, and
that is doomed Planet, desperate scientist, last Hope, kindly couple.
But Grant Morrison has said across many interviews that this
was the labors of Hercules through Superman. This was Superman's
last twelve labors. Because of course Superman flies too close
to the sun, he finds out he's dying. It's weirdly

(03:37:40):
a death of Superman story, and it walks Superman through
basically him wrapping up all the loose sins, we get
another callback to Smallville, we get another callback to Lois
Lane and Jimmy Olsen, until we learn the ultimate destiny
of Superman in the story, which I will not spoil
in case any out there has not read an All

(03:38:01):
Star Superman, but I kind of love this story. I've
kind of loved this ending for Superman, and it's even
referenced if you've read other Grant Morrison's works. He ties
into this in his very famous Justice League one million storyline,
and this was also made into a I think, in

(03:38:21):
a brilliant, brilliant animated feature written by the late great
Dwayne McDuffie. And you know, I don't know if I've
told the story on the podcast before or not, but
one of the first things I ever did in Los
Angeles when I moved out here almost ten years ago,
was I was able to go to the Pailey Fest
event for All Star Superman, and I was able to

(03:38:44):
meet Dwayne McDuffie. And that event was three weeks before
he died, and I still have the copy of the
Blu Ray that I got him to sign, because they
gave out copies of Blue Rays to everybody that attended
that event and it's like one that, so this my
color perception. But even without that, I still think this
is one of the greatest Superman stories of all time.

(03:39:05):
And this is also, I think a pretty reader friendly story.
I think if you don't know a lot about Superman,
I think you can read this and get into it.
But I think it definitely hits more if you know
the history and you know all the references that Grant
Morrison is making. But All Star Superman is my number two.

Speaker 1 (03:39:23):
Okay, so it's time for the Ultimate Choices. It's time
for all of our number ones. And you know, Jason,
it's interesting that you said that you think this is
pretty new reader friendly, because I think this was the
I think All Star Superman was the first like complete
Superman story that I ever read, because you gave me
this single issue.

Speaker 2 (03:39:43):
I think because when we first met you were not
keen on Superman, and I said, read the first five
issues of All Star Superman and if you don't want
to read the second, No, you made me read the
first six. Yeah, if you didn't want to read the
first six, then I was like, then you'll never like
anything Superman. Yeah, So All Star Superman is.

Speaker 1 (03:39:59):
My number one and it's specifically exacally All Star Superman
number six because that's the issue where uh, spoiler alert
that Jason wasn't gonna spoil, but I'll spoil Paw can't
dies what I know what spoiler alert Ashley this old man,

(03:40:21):
and it really touched me because my father is also
passed away and there is something about Dead Dad's Club
where you just understand each other. And it was a
great in for this character for me because this issue specifically,
and it's a lot like Dear Superman. It does have
a big punchy punchy fight him up moment, a courtesy
of a character from the Reign of the Superman, but

(03:40:43):
it focuses on and I said that I love Clark
Ken and Clark kent to me is the true identity.
It focuses on Clark's relationship to Jonathan and how powerless
Superman is when Paw is felled by.

Speaker 2 (03:40:56):
A heart attack.

Speaker 1 (03:40:57):
And if you've ever had anyone in your life, dive
but specif a parent, your parents are your heroes, you
think they're infallible to me, this issue really ties up
what those feelings are so eloquently, even against the backdrop
of the DC universe, which is very extravagant, and it
is theatrical, and Superman is completely theatrical in that costume.

(03:41:17):
But it broke my heart. And the cover with Superman
and the Best Boy next to Pause Grave makes me
so sad. I think it's the best cover that entire series. Yeah,
I mean, it's definitely in contention, but for me, this
is Superman. And we've said before that if Grant Morrison
decides to start a religion someday that we will be

(03:41:39):
the first followers, And this just lays out what I
think Grant Morrison does so very very well. Obviously complimented
by amazing art from Frank Quietly, but that is not
only does he take I'm sorry, they just came out
as gender fluid, so I'm sorry I'm correcting my pronouns.
Not only did they take some of the best and
kookiest aspects from Superman's history, including some wild Jimmy Olsen stuff.

Speaker 2 (03:42:04):
You mean some great Jimmy Olsen stuff. I didn't say
it wasn't great, but it's wild.

Speaker 1 (03:42:08):
Well weirdly think. Also it relates back to Adams Number two.
Doomsday is an All Stars super yah. Lois Lange also
gets Superpowers, Like, we get some silver age stuff going
on here, but it all feels significant, it all feels
worthy of the universe. And then to tie it up
with the stakes of an epic of Greek mythology, like

(03:42:31):
that's what comic books are. And it's so ironic to
me that comic books are a truly American art form
and that Superman may be the most American superhero, in
my opinion, is best rendered by a Scottish person. So yeah,
it's just the Superman story that makes me feel the most.
So of all the placements on this list, I always
knew A Star Superman was going to be number one,

(03:42:52):
and I knew Jason was going to ruin it and
put it lower down on the list. So sorry, all right,
So Adam, tell us why All Star Superman is your number?

Speaker 4 (03:43:02):
I actually very specifically was like, they're going to pick
All Star Superman. Yea, I'm not going to waste to
pick there. And I do want to back up really
quickly because one thing I wanted toss in about Rain
of the Superman is there is a really terrible, wretched
video put out by screenwriter whose name I'm not going
to say, yes that alleges that this whole First of all,
there's factual stuff that's completely wrong, like objectively factual stuff

(03:43:24):
like he gets issued numbers wrong. But it alleges that
whole thing was just a sales stunt.

Speaker 2 (03:43:29):
It was not.

Speaker 4 (03:43:30):
It was storyline driven. And so if anybody ever tells
you that Rain of the Superman was just done by
DC as a stunt, you can tell them that that
guy has no idea what he's talking about and does
not understand Superman, as evidenced by everything he has ever
had to say on the character. That's the last thing
I will say about that guy.

Speaker 2 (03:43:46):
By the way, Adam, if I'm right or wrong, please
correct me. I always understood that the reason why they
did Death of Superman was because they wanted to marry
Lois and Clark. But the series Superman, The New Adventures
of Lowis and Clark wanted them to hold on that,
so they decided, let's just kill him.

Speaker 1 (03:44:03):
That's exactly it.

Speaker 4 (03:44:04):
I've heard this story from multiple people, and I've read
it and many interviews. Have no reason to doubt it.
Like seventy five was earmarked for the wedding, there's some
actually there's some discrepancy whether it was seventy five, or
it was Adventures of Superman five hundred, which was about
two months later, but either way, they were building towards
a wedding in those issues and they got told no,
the TV show's coming, can you delay this? And everybody

(03:44:27):
seems to remember this differently. I think the consensus is
it was Jerry Ordway who piped up in the room
and said, why don't we just kill him? And you know,
they all had a good laugh because I guess that
was a running gag at the super summits when they
would be planning the stories, and someone said, Okay, what
if we did do that? And they started thinking through, yeah,
we haven't done a death of Superman story yet, Let's
do that and treat it as if it was real,
like how does it affect the world. And that was

(03:44:48):
what led to Doomsday, which became this much bigger phenomenon
than they anticipated at the time, and their plan to
bring him back was originally what you see in Adventures
of Superman five hundred, where it's just John Kent dragging
him back from the afterlife, and once they saw the
hype that Doomsday was getting, they realized they needed a
much bigger epic to bring him back. And so the

(03:45:10):
result was Rain of the Superman. But it wasn't like
sales driven by any means. It was story driven. It
was the writer's going, Okay, this epic story needs an
epic ending.

Speaker 1 (03:45:20):
Basically, well, in each and every one of us has
lived through several comic book sales driven events from many
different companies, from independent companies, you can always tell those stories,
and those stories don't last. Rain of the Superman lasts
and has had the impact it has because it's an
incredible story.

Speaker 2 (03:45:37):
Correct, correct, All right, So Adam, let's find my number one?

Speaker 1 (03:45:41):
What is your number one?

Speaker 4 (03:45:42):
My number one? Apparently, since we were taking Superman stories,
there was nothing that said specifically comic books. And so
I think if I was to go with my north
star for Superman, it all has to go back to
the first Christopher Reeve film, directed by Richard Donner. That is,
I think that really defined Superman so strongly that to

(03:46:06):
this day a lot of people still think of Christopher
Reeve as like the quintessential Superman. And beyond that, we
would not have any of these super hip films we
would have today if it wasn't for that movie because
that movie is the Citizen Kane of comic book movies
right there. Christopher Reeve is the best person who has
ever been cast as a comic book superhero. And there

(03:46:27):
are things in that movie that people don't realize we're
not in the comic book and it is. They accept
it as part of the lore, not realizing that it
was done er inventing that, like the conception of Krypton
had never been done that way before, the idea that
there were crystals that carried, you know, all of this
knowledge and everything that's unique to the movie. The idea
that the fortress looks like that is unique to the movie.

(03:46:48):
And there are people the comic sense have picked this
up and assimilated some of it and all of that,
but there is so much there that originates. So much
of that movie originates that becomes mainstream part of Superman
that you cannot talk about the history of Superman without
talking about what Richard Donner and uncredited writer Tom Akowitz

(03:47:08):
did on that film. And so that for me is
why it had to be number one, because it defines
so much of the last forty years of superhero films.

Speaker 1 (03:47:16):
And of the character.

Speaker 2 (03:47:18):
I also believe from everything that I understood that that
is also the first mention of Smallville, Bean, Kansas.

Speaker 4 (03:47:26):
I've heard that I'm not enough of the historian of
the Silver Age to save certainly, but I have seen
that fact cited elsewhere.

Speaker 2 (03:47:33):
I've heard that as well, because like it's hard, it's
also a fact that's very hard to confirm unless you
literally read every Superman comic book that was ever published
in the seventies or six.

Speaker 1 (03:47:42):
I believe you two can manage it.

Speaker 2 (03:47:43):
Oh lord, yes, our infinite free schedules. Yes, But that's
what I've always heard is that it was Donner in
the script that said it's in Kansas, because before then
a lot of people thought it was on the East coast.
And Adam I also apologized Superman the movie excellent choice.
You know, we were thinking more comic books. But you

(03:48:03):
know what, it definitely deserves a mention, so we will
allow it. You are the guests, and you gave a
great defense. You gave a great defense. So number one,
you said Superman Stories, not Superman. Hey, you're right, you're
absolutely your honor. I should have been more clear.

Speaker 1 (03:48:16):
You are correct.

Speaker 2 (03:48:17):
Now, I'm now I'm a little.

Speaker 1 (03:48:19):
Bit offended that I didn't think to look up the cereals,
so Superman the animated show would have made it on
some of mine. Yeah, hey, Jason, now you're going to
tell us why All Star Superman is actually your number one? No,
my number one actually is was Adam's number five.

Speaker 2 (03:48:34):
My number one is Superman Secret Identity written by Kurt
Music and art which by Stuart Emmaman, And like he
said before, it is a clever tit twist on Superman's
origins where basically the main character is a Kansas farm
boy who just happens to be named Clark Kent. He
lives in Kansas, He's the butt of many Superman related jokes,
but then he soon discovers that he has the ability

(03:48:57):
to fly. And in one of the versions of this
story where they repackaged it and made it a trade,
Kirk Music said that this was a leftover tail from
the nineties that he wanted to do about Superboy Prime,
as Adam mentioned earlier, and that was when DC was like, no, no, no, no,
we did Crisis on infinite earths. There are no Superboy Primes.
You need to slow your role. Kurt Music, Yeah, final

(03:49:19):
crisis or infinite Crisis isn't coming for a little while, yeah,
and so he pitched it as an elseworld And I
actually avoided this storyline for a long, long long time
because I was like, I don't care about some kid
who you know, figures out that he's Clark Kent. But
I think the humanity and the heart in this story

(03:49:40):
is so strong that this character that is not the
Superman that we know classically, to me, so embodies the
morality and the emotions and the themes of Superman more
so than some of the other Superman stories that I've mentioned.
That that's why this became my number one. You know,

(03:50:02):
it's a very naturalistic story. The colors are very rustic.
It's almost muted. It's like the most muted Stewart immment
has ever been. And it really allows you to focus
on Clark. And you know, when I think about best
Superman stories, as I said very early on when I
started the list, I'm always looking for the story of
a boy who's just trying to make the world better.

(03:50:24):
And that's what Superman Secret Identity is for me. It
is this ultimate story about this guy who gets the
powers of Superman. Is like, well, I'm going to live
like Superman and I'm going to do everything I can
to make the world a better place. And I also
deny any of our listeners or anybody that listens to
the podcast in the future. When you get to the
scene where we finally get the big reveal about his daughters,

(03:50:46):
I was going to say, if you didn't mention that,
I love that, I deny. I don't think you're human
if your heart doesn't grow two sizes. So Superman Secret
Identity is my number one because like it just so
embodies Superman to me, and that is all of our
best Superman stories.

Speaker 1 (03:51:02):
Everybody not as much crossover.

Speaker 2 (03:51:05):
As I thought.

Speaker 1 (03:51:06):
There was a movie and oh my gosh, can you
believe rad Sun to make the list? Someone is screaming
at their iPhone.

Speaker 2 (03:51:13):
Well, everybody out there listening again, send us your list
and if you want to hear more Superman talk with Adam,
we are going to have an episode of geekishel Us
an extra on our Patreon over at patreon dot com
slash Jamin. We're going to be asking Adam some of
his favorite Superman things. Is gonna be conversation all Superman
that you can only hear over there. If you go
support the podcast over on Patreon, and we want to

(03:51:35):
thank all our super fans that do that already. You
heard Adam's list, you know that's going to be a
great conversation. All right, So let's move into the recommended
reading Ashley very briefly, what is that for anybody listening.

Speaker 1 (03:51:46):
So if you have enjoyed this and you want to
read any or all of the things that we have suggested,
if you go to geekistory lesson dot com slash recommended reading.
We have cool little Amazon widgets. You go and buy
them in the format of your choice, and you steal
money out of Jeff Bezos's pocket and put them back
in on That's right.

Speaker 2 (03:52:00):
The top three choices of all three of us will
be available on there. You can click on it and
pick it up immediately, So make sure you go and
do that. Adam, You've been an amazing guest, sir, and
please tell everybody out there that is listening to this
podcast where they can find you online and if you
have any projects that they should check out.

Speaker 4 (03:52:21):
Well, let's see. You can find me online at my blog,
the bitterscript Reader at the Bitterscriptreader dot blogspot dot com.
I'm on Twitter as the betterscript reader. My handle because
bitterscript reader is too long for that is b I
T t R S c R P t R E
A d R. But if you just search for betterscript reader,
I'll pop up. As far as projects, I have an

(03:52:45):
episode of Superman and lois appearing sometime. I can't say
which episode it is, but you'll see it at some
point after it premieres this season.

Speaker 1 (03:52:54):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (03:52:55):
And what's expiring actually probably within minutes right now is
Crisis on Infinite teen Dramas, which was massive crossover I
wrote between all team dramas. We put it out there
as a live read for charity. I don't know if
this is the last time we'll put it out, you know,
just keep your eyes out if we ever put it
out again. We seem to have bad luck because we

(03:53:15):
put it out the week of the election and decided
that the holiday time until now would be the perfect
time to just drop it on people who missed it,
and the last week of things has not been the
best time to be pushing your own material. That's great,
So that's that's really all I have to plug at
the moment. But yeah, you can always just find me
my bloger on Twitter and.

Speaker 2 (03:53:36):
Go find his book Michael Elton Bay on Amazon. Everybody,
we will all.

Speaker 1 (03:53:42):
Be reading.

Speaker 2 (03:53:42):
It'll be in the recommendment reading as well. Don't forget
everybody to follow and subscribe and click download on this podcast.
Everywhere we listen to the podcast. That's on Spotify, that
is on iHeartRadio, It's on a multitude of places.

Speaker 1 (03:53:54):
Click follow.

Speaker 2 (03:53:55):
And if you're listening to this podcast and you know
somebody out there that's a huge Superman fan, then just
this podcast to him. Tell him, Hey, if you cash Lisson,
three awesome people did three awesome lists, you should check
it out.

Speaker 4 (03:54:06):
Well.

Speaker 2 (03:54:06):
Thank you for helping to grow our listener base. Don't forget.
You can follow me on Instagram and Twitter at jawan
that's a at jawi in. You can follow Ashley on
Instagram and Twitter at Ashley V. Robinson. And now we're
at hashtag. Stick around the last section of our podcast
where we make sure you stuck through all the plugs. Adam,
We're going to ask you a question really briefly here,

(03:54:27):
what if you had to think you did talk. I
have a feeling that I might be able to guess
your answer, but I won't if you had to say
favorite Superman writer, Who would you choose if somebody asked
you that question, I.

Speaker 4 (03:54:42):
Think I'd have to say Dan Jurgens, because he's had
such influence on the character you for over thirty years.
At this point, I think his first Superman story is
in nineteen eighty eight. He was on the regular books
starting in nineteen eighty nine and was writing it through
nineteen ninety nine, and then he came back with Birth
for what was essentially four years worth of stories compressed

(03:55:03):
into two years. And so I think nobody has had
their hands on as many Superman stories I've loved as
Dan Jurgens, And I think in terms of really understanding
the character, there are certainly a lot of great writers
who have touched him over the years, But I think
just in terms of the sheer number of great stories,

(03:55:24):
it'd be crazy to say anyone beat Stan at that point,
I would have to agree with you that.

Speaker 2 (03:55:29):
I mean, when I think Superman, I always think about
the image I see in my head is the Dan
Jurgens art of Superman from the nineties, and I think
you're absolutely correct. Like I think, if just for terms
of creation of Doomsday, the creation of John Kent, all
these different things. He has impacted the Superman so much. Actually,
if somebody would asking you favorite Superman writer, what would

(03:55:51):
your answer be?

Speaker 1 (03:55:52):
Well, I don't have the wealth of reading knowledge that's
iView do. But I mean I would want to say
Grant Morrison just because they wrote my favorite story. But
I mean, if you're looking at in terms of overall impact,
there's no debate that it's it's Dan with John Byrne.

Speaker 3 (03:56:10):
I guess as a close second. You know who else
I would throw out there, Louise Simonson. I was like,
this is the creators. I was gonna say Simon, I
was wrong.

Speaker 2 (03:56:23):
Yeah, there's That's a great thing is that there have
been a lot.

Speaker 1 (03:56:26):
I mean, Tamasi and g Lison are definitely going to
be up there in the coming years. I think when
Superman's good, he's excellent. You know. That's the thing.

Speaker 2 (03:56:33):
Like Superman is one of those characters I find that
like his stuff is either like rocking and rolling like
it's volcano lava, or it's just like so it's over there.

Speaker 1 (03:56:42):
Oh. If I can also throw out a team that
I generally think is very good but underrated is the
Action Comics. Aaron Krudi, Greg pac Tima, Oh agree, I
think they did some really special stuff and shut up
for creating Baca the little Blue guy, who I love.

Speaker 2 (03:56:57):
All Right, everybody, thank you so much for listening to
this episode of Geek History Lesson. Adam, thank you so
much for joining us again. Thank you guys for having me.

Speaker 4 (03:57:04):
This was a blast.

Speaker 2 (03:57:04):
It was an absolute pleasure to have you. Thank you
so much for listening.

Speaker 1 (03:57:07):
Everybody. I am Jason still from Smallville Inman. I am
Ashley Victoria Robinson and Professor Jason. Would you please dismiss
the class. Class is now super dismissed. Hey, Ashley, Yeah,
do you know what movie comes out this week?

Speaker 3 (03:57:25):
No?

Speaker 2 (03:57:26):
Batman v. Superman Down of Justice.

Speaker 1 (03:57:29):
Oh well, I really like to see that, but I
don't know anything about Batman or Superman. Boy? Are you
and luck?

Speaker 2 (03:57:35):
Because this week on Geek History Lesson, we're gonna tell
you the top five Batman v. Superman stories away. Hello,
and welcome to Geek History Lesson. I'm Ashley Victoria Robinson
and I'm Jason v in the Men. Welcome to your
Geek History Lesson because it is time for the Dawn
of Justice to down all over this podcast. Because yeah,

(03:58:00):
we got some theme music on, and it's time to
talk about some Batman the Superman stories, because that movie
is dawning all over us and we're ready for it,
and we're ready to turn on that bat signal and
light up that Kryptonite and jump in our invisible jets
and make this happen. Now, the title of this episode,
I said, Batman v. Superman stories, the top five Batman v.

(03:58:22):
Superman stories. Now we want to put out a little
caveat right at the top, caveats. What I know, I
know and on some people. I know, some people on
Twitter complain about our user of caveats, but damn it,
it's a down of justice and we're ready for it.
So what I want to say is that even though
in the title of our episode it says Batman the Superman,

(03:58:42):
not every one of these stories are a fight.

Speaker 1 (03:58:45):
Are they, Ashley? No. In fact, I would say most
of mine are not some of mine are.

Speaker 2 (03:58:50):
So we don't mean the top Batman Superman fight each
other's storylines. We're talking about the best Batman Superman storylines
that we think you should all read. Ashley has a
list of five. I have a list of five, and
we're just going to drop right in this list. Now,
I will say some of mine have fights, some of
mine have some really some of mine.

Speaker 4 (03:59:11):
So there you go.

Speaker 1 (03:59:11):
So so our titles have true so we're all good
and these we're looking for material that celebrates both of
these characters exactly.

Speaker 2 (03:59:20):
And the the other point of this podcast is that
if you go see Batman v. Superman and you like
that move and you're like, boy, I really would love
to read some more Batman v. Superman storylines, well, guess
what this podcast is perfect for you. I'm also going
to hazard a guess that they're not fighting for the
entire like two and a half hour long movie. Well,
you know what, somewhere somewhere during that movie that Justice
has to dawn and so you know, Justice sunrisees. So

(03:59:46):
we can't be fighting during the dawn. That's that's just
that's bad form.

Speaker 1 (03:59:50):
That's like some Dawn of the Planet of the Apes form.

Speaker 2 (03:59:52):
There you go. All right, let's hop into the list.
We're going to do this back where we're going to
start a five and go to one. So this is Ashley.
What is your number five of the top five Batman
be Superman stories?

Speaker 1 (04:00:02):
My number five is a little story that you can
get in a trade paperback that some might call an
Elks World. Story is written by Mark Miller with art
by Dave Johnson. It is Superman colon Red Sun.

Speaker 2 (04:00:15):
Red Son.

Speaker 1 (04:00:16):
I'm gonna do that for every title. Okay, cool. So
here's the synopsis. Imagine a reality where the world's in
this powerful Superman does not grow up in Smallville, Kansas,
or even America for that matter. Superman red Son is
a vivid tale of Cold War paranoia that reveals how
the ship carrying the infant that would later be known
as Superman lands in the midst of the nineteen fifties

(04:00:37):
Soviet Union.

Speaker 2 (04:00:38):
Wait can you do that sentence again except in a
nineteen thirty's old timey radio voice. Superman red Son. It's
a vivid tale.

Speaker 1 (04:00:48):
Of gold paranoia. Bring me pictures off, Superman, I need
them yesterday. There's like three more paragraphs explaining what happens
in the story, but that's basically it. It's what if
Superman landed in Cold War Russia? And I really like
this particular story because this is one of the first
Superman stories I read where I was like, oh, look,
Superman is not a boring character and you can do

(04:01:11):
That's heresy.

Speaker 2 (04:01:11):
Don't say that dynamic.

Speaker 1 (04:01:15):
Heresy. I know, I know, but it is interesting.

Speaker 2 (04:01:18):
It is both.

Speaker 1 (04:01:19):
It is both an exemplifies nature and nurture because it
shows you that cal L the little boy from Krypton,
is a really good, like pure hearted individual who just
wants to do good.

Speaker 2 (04:01:31):
But when it's interesting, go ahead, Sorry, finished spots.

Speaker 1 (04:01:34):
But when when your version of like doing good is
keeping the proletariat down and working under you know, very
strict disguised under the guys of communists, kind of like oligarchy,
it's interesting to see what measures this version is willing
to go do versus the guy that we know who
grew up in Smallville.

Speaker 2 (04:01:50):
Can I ask you a question, you can why did
you decide to put this on a Batman v. Superman list?
Because for me it's funny. So I was just going
to get to that Batman is well, I'm perfect set up.
Then mat Man is a very minor part of the
storyline to me. And when I think of Superman red Son,
I kind of almost think about this more as a
Superman Luther story.

Speaker 1 (04:02:10):
Well, I thought of this one first because I would
say that in almost all of my other ones, they
don't fight. I thought I should probably have one where
they actually fight. I'm not a huge fan of the
exploration of Batman's character in this because it's basically just
like grumpy old man Bruce Wayne.

Speaker 2 (04:02:25):
Well. You also like the because the Batman cost him.
This has ear muffs.

Speaker 1 (04:02:28):
Well, he wears the fuzzy Russian hat like that exactly
what you're imagining right now with the ear flaps and everything,
and he's kind of like bat He had.

Speaker 2 (04:02:35):
An action figure of it, did they really? They did?

Speaker 1 (04:02:37):
Yeah, red Son. If someone has one, I would like
to send it to me up on Twitter.

Speaker 2 (04:02:41):
There's a Batman red Son. I've never seen. I've seen Superman.
I've never mad red Son. They made Superman, they made Batman,
they made a wonder Woman, and they made Green Lanter.
But this is this version of Batman red Son.

Speaker 1 (04:02:54):
Batman is Batman at the height of his dickery, and
it's the only time where Superman beats the crap out
of him, and I think that Batman deserves it, this
particular version of Batman. So that was one of the
reasons why I wanted to include it, and also because
this is the story that I think diverges from the
classic ideas of both of the characters the most interesting
and it's a good time and it's like one hundred pages. Great,

(04:03:15):
you know you're not Denic getting too much time to
red Son.

Speaker 2 (04:03:17):
Sorry, all right, cool?

Speaker 1 (04:03:19):
What is your number five?

Speaker 2 (04:03:21):
My number five is a continuation of a somewhat I
would say popular. I mean I would say it was popular.
Sure television series though, was on the CW that ran
for ten years, that started every.

Speaker 1 (04:03:34):
Week with Somebody Save Me.

Speaker 2 (04:03:37):
I can't do that high note me. I don't even
know how that song goes. So it's like, Okay, that
Smallville season eleven. Detective is what I'm talking about. I
apologize for my bad singing. Written by Brian Q. Miller,
who actually worked on Smallville. Now, if you don't know,
it's a digital comic continuation of the small oil series.
These issues would show up online in Comicxology and then

(04:04:00):
would eventually collect him into issues and trades. Now, the
interesting thing about and the reason why I picked this
storyline that it's called detective, is because Batman never showed
up in all ten seasons of Smallville, but in the
comic books, he showed up in this arc for the
first time in an art called detective. Now, the reason
why I put this on there is because this is
a very interesting Batman. This is not a Batman that

(04:04:21):
we're used to, kind of like yours. I think it's
both interesting that we went for alternate Batman. His armor
is very close to being a real world suit of armor.
It has like pads, you can see seams. He actually
paints the bottom of his face, so he paints his
face this he well, no, no, he paints his mouth
black so it blends in with his cow Oh, that's cool.

Speaker 1 (04:04:42):
He has Barbara Gordon as his psychic. His psychic called.

Speaker 2 (04:04:45):
Nightwing, and it has a really cool costume. Now, basically
the story is that Batman comes to the Metropolis hunting
for the criminal known as Joe Chill Ashley. We all
know who Joe Chill is, right.

Speaker 1 (04:04:55):
He's the dude what killed Batman's parents.

Speaker 2 (04:04:57):
Now, Superman shows up when Batman bashes in, some the
criminals heads and Batman for a time is actually kicking
Superman's butt because he has red sunlight gloves and his
chest display is bat beams red sunlight. Oh, that's really cool.
And Batman reveals that he figured out that Superman's chest
symbol is Kryptonian because of several events in the show. Now,

(04:05:20):
in previous seasons of Smallville, there was one season season
nine where a group of Kryptonians showed up from the
Phantom Zone. They were led by Zod, by Young Zod,
and they burned the Kryptonian symbols into certain buildings and
at one point they took over a good chunk of
the world. Well, Batman, that's how he figured out the
Superman was Kryptonian from all the symbols left over from
that story event interesting. So it's interesting and ties back

(04:05:41):
into Smallville, yet moves story forward. Eventually, Superman defeats Batman
and Batman reveals that it was all just a distraction
for Nightwing to break Bruno Mannheim out of jail so
that they could question him about where the location of
Joe Chill is, which I again think is such a
Batman move that the fight was meaningless to him. He
was just like, I'm just gonna as a tool. Yes,

(04:06:03):
And actually, when Superman finds out that this is all
about the death of Batman's parents, Superman actually wants to help,
of course, And that's another reason why I decided to
include this arc in here, is because I think the
best Superman Batman fights are where they fight and then
they help each other out and become good friends, which

(04:06:24):
is what happens in the Smallville series. If you keep
reading about this, Batman and Clark become friends. But again,
one of the most interesting interpretations of Batman I've ever seen,
and one of the few times that I actually have
been able to believe that Batman could actually beat Superman,
but he has the appropriate tools to help him out.

Speaker 1 (04:06:46):
Well, that's that wasn't the point.

Speaker 2 (04:06:48):
The point is is that I feel that most times,
I'm sorry, I love Batman, Superman could beat him in
five seconds.

Speaker 1 (04:06:54):
Yeah, but you're saying, at least it seems like you're
saying that he could beat him because he's got all
these other things in play.

Speaker 2 (04:07:01):
They exactly, you can't just punch them into oblivioa. Well,
they set up the idea that in the series that
Batman has been studying Superman for quite a while and
he had Yeah, you're right, he has all the appropriate tools.

Speaker 1 (04:07:12):
So he can do it.

Speaker 2 (04:07:14):
And when Batman doesn't have the tools, I'm sorry, Superman
bits beats him in five seconds.

Speaker 1 (04:07:17):
I'm sorry. You can love Batman.

Speaker 2 (04:07:19):
Everyone screaming into their iPhone. Well, good, go for it,
But I'm sorry, this is a guy who can punch
the moon out of orbit. Batman poses no problem to him.
So there you go. But that if you've never read
Small Ol season eleven, I think you're really gonna like
it and give it a shot. It's one of the
best Superman I believe. I gave you the Supergirl storyline.

Speaker 1 (04:07:38):
I was just going to say that I'm not terribly
familiar with the Small Vil TV series, but I can
vouch for that comic series. I read the Supergirl volume
and it was really good, Yes, like surprisingly really good.
Ryan Q.

Speaker 2 (04:07:49):
Miller is a is a great writer. Well done. Yes,
there you go. That was my number five, Ashley, What
is your number four for the best Batman be Superman stories?

Speaker 1 (04:07:59):
My for is a little story called Kingdom Come.

Speaker 2 (04:08:06):
By. Uh, you're gonna do it.

Speaker 1 (04:08:08):
In the voice Kingdom Come I feel like I'm playing
a street fighter written by Mark Wade with art by
Let Them Fight with the amazing Alex Ross, very painterly.
Set in the not so distant future, the DC universe
is spinning inexorably out of control. The new generation of
heroes has lost their moral compasses, becoming just as reckless

(04:08:30):
and violent as the villains they fight. The previous regime
of heroes. The Justice League returns under the most dire
of circumstances, setting up a battle of the old Guard
against the uncompromising Protectors, in the battle that will define
what heroism truly is. Man whoever wrote that copy dat
a heck of a job.

Speaker 2 (04:08:46):
Can I point something out please? We are two for
two with you of picking elseworld stories now. I want
to if you don't know what in Elseworld's is Elseworld's
worthy type of stories that DC told mainly in the nineties,
sometimes in the two thousands, where they were just alternate timelines,
like sort of like what ifs, like yeah, exactly, like
what so this one is what if in the future

(04:09:08):
Superman retired and then all the superheroes got real old. No,
all the superheroes that we're currently operating just decided to
murder criminals, forcing Superman to come out of retirement. And
Superman's like, you can't do it. I'm gonna Lucky in prison,
and Batman's like, you can't lock heroes in prison, and
then they fight.

Speaker 1 (04:09:23):
Yeah, And it's also because Superman is kind of the echelon,
the man standing on top of the obelisk that all
the other heroes are holding themselves in comparison to, and
when he steps away from superheroics, there's kind of at
least the way that it's presented in this story. Of course,
arguably there's nobody else for them to compare themselves into
kind of set their moral compass by. And I really

(04:09:46):
like Batman and Superman stories where you get to see
their relationship as it develops through different points in their lives,
because usually you see them like twenties, thirties, forties, kind
of depending on what the current continuity is. And by
this time I would say they are easily in their sixties. Yes,
Batman is wearing an exoskeleton. He looks very much like
an old man. Clark basically looks the same. He's just

(04:10:07):
got some gray on his temples.

Speaker 2 (04:10:09):
You know what I always thought was one of the
smartest things about Kingdom Come Nope, that in the future
at the end of the storyline, which this is not
spoilers for anything, but at the very end of the storyline,
these two men go to the jobs of their fathers. Yes,
I was actually just becomes a farmer and Bruce becomes
a doctor, yeah, which I always love that beat.

Speaker 1 (04:10:31):
And the thing that I think is probably the most
romantic part of the story is when you meet Superman
here for the first time you see him and he's
like a workhorse. He's tilling a field and it's like
it's such a beautiful image and it's a plow that's
like one hundred feet tall.

Speaker 2 (04:10:46):
Huge.

Speaker 1 (04:10:47):
Yeah. Yeah, but yeah. The idea that that they go
back and they honor the men who shape them the most,
but who they couldn't have been trying to be the
more opposite of.

Speaker 2 (04:10:56):
Well, actually, if you if you go by that respects,
then then Bruce should have became an amazing butler.

Speaker 1 (04:11:02):
Well yeah, this looks how good I do?

Speaker 2 (04:11:05):
Guys, look at how good I dust.

Speaker 1 (04:11:07):
But again, this is kind of this is kind of
your classic Batman Superman story where like they're at odds
for whatever reason, there's a fight, but then in the
end they come together because they realize that even though
they're different, they're better together. And plus this is probably
of my suggestions of the most beautiful book to look at.

Speaker 2 (04:11:23):
Oh, the arts amazing, Alex Ross is amazing and throughout
also because it's written by Mark Wade.

Speaker 1 (04:11:28):
There's about one hundred thousand Easter eggs to the DC
and Vertigo universes up to this point.

Speaker 2 (04:11:33):
We'll watch my Easter egg that's worth looking out for me.
We'll throw this out there. This is something that not
many people know. The Easter eggs are Alex Ross, not
Mark Wade. Oh really, and to be actually and Kingdom
Come is more Alex Ross than Mark Wade. And the
fact is is because the project, the outline was written

(04:11:54):
before Mark Wade ever came out on the project by
Alex Ross. I didn't know that James Robinson almost wrote
king to Come. Oh that would have been so. But
Mark Wade gets so much credit, and I.

Speaker 1 (04:12:03):
Actually it's also Mark Wade as a writer has a
reputation that sees him Alex Ross.

Speaker 2 (04:12:08):
And he did a great job. Doesn't have a writerly
the genesis of Kingdom Come and the basic spine is Alex's.

Speaker 1 (04:12:15):
Well, Alex Ross, thank you so much, so so anything
you give.

Speaker 2 (04:12:18):
I feel like Alex deserves more of the credit than Mark.
But Mark did an amazing job. Yes, the dialogue is
all Mark, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:12:24):
Yeah, yeah. Also, this is one of the few early
appearances of the classic Red Robin with the cowl costume.
It was the first appearance it' it was it is Grayson,
not Tim Drake inside the costume. But I think that's
for me. That's a little tidbit that's worth knowing. It
is that you could see Red Robin costume here.

Speaker 2 (04:12:40):
You know, I designed that costume Alex Alex Ross.

Speaker 1 (04:12:43):
You know Alex Ross.

Speaker 2 (04:12:44):
And if you go back and read Kingdom Come, you
can see this. The great thing about if you ever
buy the absolute or one of the deluxe editions Came
to Come, there's a whole appendency where they like Alex
Ross shows you his Easter eggs, because Alex Ross says
that it takes him so long to paint this stuff
that he for him, the fun stuff is to put
stuff in right. Read the Red Robin cowl came from
painting a Michael Keaton batman cowl and then erasing the years.

(04:13:07):
I didn't know that. And if you look at the
first appearance of Red Robin and came them Come, it's
so Michael Keaton's cowl.

Speaker 1 (04:13:13):
You're just like, oh yeah, Well, as soon as we're
done this podcast, I'm going to have to go and
take a look at that and then I will try
to remember to put a picture on the internet. There
you go.

Speaker 2 (04:13:22):
What is your number four? Maybe one of the geek
facts on the geek History Lessons Tumblr. We'll see, there
you go. My number four is a story that was
a prelude to Infinite Crisis and Ashley, what is infinite Crisis?

Speaker 1 (04:13:38):
My favorite question to ask Infinite Crisis is the one
where Superboy Prime gets really mad and punch as a
hole in reality and then they stick them in a wall.

Speaker 2 (04:13:49):
No, I don't know where you get the stick and
stick them in a wall?

Speaker 1 (04:13:52):
Well, stick them in the source wall? No, no, why
do I think that?

Speaker 2 (04:13:55):
I have no idea?

Speaker 1 (04:13:57):
They stick them in a prison cell in Oa. At
the end.

Speaker 2 (04:14:00):
Oh, I always thought that they sticker in the law.
But this is where the Earth to Superman, the original
Superman comes back from the past. But anyways, there was
a there were several storylines that built up to that. Yes,
and there is a story arc that was published in
the main titles of Superman and Wonder Woman that was
called Sacrifice and Sacrifices my number four, And actually it
took place in Superman number two ninety one, Action Comics

(04:14:23):
number eight twenty nine adventures as Superman number six forty
two and Wonder Woman number two one nine. Now, the
storyline of this is after hacking the Bat computer discovered
the weaknesses of the Justice League members, Maxwell Lord, who
was a member of the Just League International but kind
of became a bad guy also a Supergirl villain right
now on the TV show, he mind controls Superman, trigging

(04:14:46):
the Kryptonian into fighting his fellow Just League team members,
believing that he's actually battling his greatest enemies like dark Side. Now,
in this storyline, Superman and Bush's a completely unprepared battle
Man in the Batcave and blindsided by the all powerful
Superman who believes in a life or death battle with

(04:15:06):
dark Side to protect his friends. Batman almost dies from
the beating. Wow. Now, the interesting about the story is
that most of this fight takes place off camera, with
Superman believing that he's punching the crap out of dark Side,
so you mainly see him fighting dark Side, and it's
not till the end of the storyline that you realize
that he's been fighting Batman. But for me, the aftermath

(04:15:29):
of Superman standing over his friend's lifeless body basically at
the point, and how bad it makes him feel comes
off as very a visceral. Listen to this quote from
Superman standing over Batman's bed, Okay, I'm listening to him.
The sound of his ribs crushing in when they should
be moving out, the drip of an IV leaking plasma

(04:15:50):
into his veins, the sound of my friend refusing to surrender.
They tell me I did this to him. They tell
me I tried to kill him. It's a very sad Superman.
It is sad, and so for me.

Speaker 1 (04:16:04):
This is why this is one of my best Batman v.

Speaker 2 (04:16:07):
Superman storylines, even though it's basically, if you want to
put down the crux of the story, it's Superman beating
Batman off camera. But I think the moments of Superman
over his let's just go and say it, best friend's
death bad are very sad. Now, of course, if you
don't know, this storyline all leads to Wonder Woman snapping
Max Lord's neck on national television and leading to the

(04:16:28):
breakup of the Trinity for a while. But I still
think it's a damn cool story, even though Batman's a
small part of it and the most impactful moments of
this storyline are Batman between Batman and Superman. And it's
a plus that Wonder Woman's in it because then in
the hit that helps out with Batman v. Superman don
Justice anyway, So there you go. Have you ever read Sacrifice?
I've not. It's the art's kind of shady because it's

(04:16:52):
a different artist every year. Yeah, yeah, which is tough
for events. But I think the storyline is pretty good.
The only part of the storyline I don't really like
is part one, you know, like, so fight through part
one for the rest of it. Yeah, Part two, Part three,
and part four are great. Part four is the Max Lord.
Part Part two is where he beats scrap out of Batman.
Part three is where he mourns, you know. So that's
why I think it's good. That's why it is mine

(04:17:13):
number four batmanvy Superman storeline. Cool. There you go, Ashley.
What is your own number three for the Dawn of Justice?

Speaker 1 (04:17:20):
Well, I kind of like to take the Grant Morrison
approach to stuff sometimes, where you have to go back
and revisit everything where it started and that everything that
came along the way has value.

Speaker 2 (04:17:29):
Well, you have to realize, yeah, like he always says,
the thing that whenever he gets on a character, he
studies their original appearance because there has to be something
in that original issue that's carried throughout to explain why
they've carried so long. Yes, yeah, so I went and
read me some Superman volume one, number seventy six. I
don't know where you're going with.

Speaker 1 (04:17:49):
This, which has a really great cover of a lady
in a green dress standing on top of a building
on fire and Batman and Superman both trying to save her,
and neither they both kind of have their hands very
threateningly shoved towards her face. This is, of course, the
first adventure of Batman and Superman, and it is awesomely
golden age. Batman and Robin show up to Metropolis to

(04:18:09):
do some super heroics and then Batman basically abandons Dick
and he's just like, go and don't die, And so
then he learns about a diamond thief and he follows
a diamond thief onto a cruise to try to stop him.
But who else is also on those cruise while one
mild mannered Clark Kent disguise pretending that he's not Superman.
So while they are there having a chit chat they

(04:18:30):
figure out each other's secret identities, and they figure out
that they're both looking for the diamond Thief, and they
don't want to help each other look for the diamond Thief.
But Gollieg it's the Golden Age. So on the very
next page, we're going to work together and get the
diamond thief and say the lady from falling off the building.

Speaker 2 (04:18:44):
I think I find it very funny that you left
out to me, what is the most important part of
this story the fact that Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent
show up at the last minute and that there's only
one cabin left on the ship. Ye, and they have
to share the cabin. And there is actually a scene
in it where they sleep in the same bed and
they fight for the covers.

Speaker 1 (04:19:04):
Because I was gonna I was gonna screencap that this
is where fan fiction was more in people. Yeah, right,
the really silly and the really dated elements aside, Again,
this is like what I was talking about in Kingdom
Come Like, this is the basis for kind of your
classic Batman and Superman don't want to work together, but
then they figure out that they're stronger together, and then
they come together in the end. It is very silly,
but it is classic storytelling obviously, because we're still repeating

(04:19:26):
the same basic plot years later.

Speaker 2 (04:19:29):
You can find it all over the internet.

Speaker 1 (04:19:31):
It's really accessible because DC does a really great job
with their backlog of digital comics, and yes they do.
I think that there is enough just like really genuinely
fun stuff there that like, go and take a look
at it.

Speaker 2 (04:19:43):
By the way, if you don't want to go back
to the past, Joe Kelly did a Superman Batman annual
that kind of.

Speaker 1 (04:19:51):
Retold that telling.

Speaker 2 (04:19:52):
I didn't know that. Yeah, it's not as good. I
think the original is better, but it is the same storyline.
It's it's Clark and Bruce meeting for the first time
on a cruise, having to share the bed, fighting for
the covers, and it's drawn by Ed McGinnis. Oh is
it really? But I think in that storyline, death stroke
is the villain, not Oh, I think you're right. I
think you're right.

Speaker 1 (04:20:12):
So so yeah, So I'm really looking forward to the
day when somebody takes my screencap of them in bed
together and puts it on a T shirt. Man, how
awesome would it be if we saw that in Batman v. Justice,
which we haven't seen by this point. By the way,
I will, I will stand up, applaud and cheer loudly
in the theater. I can't believe, Mike, I was so
excited by the prospect of that, and if that in
fact happened. Batman, the Superman Fight of the covers, Hey man,

(04:20:35):
it'll be like a wall of Jericho thing like Ben
Affleck and Henry Keviler, good looking guys. There you go.
So I watched them fight, Yeah, over the coverlet them
let them fight.

Speaker 2 (04:20:45):
What else have you got for us? For Batman? My
number three choice? Yes, well, my number three choice, of
course is a nickname that has been given to let's
say the top three heroes of the d C and novs,
and that is Trinity and no real quick. This is
not the weekly Trinity series by Kerb Music. This is

(04:21:05):
the Awesome Batman, Superman, wonder Woman Trinity, which was a
three issued comic book limited series published by DC in
two thousand and three, written and drawn by Matt Wagner
of Mage Fame Maige the Hero Discovered Now. This series
focuses on the first meeting in the alliance between the
DC Trinity of Superman, Batman, and wonder Woman. So in

(04:21:27):
the storyline, Batman and Superman have already met. They sort
of know each other, they're not really friends, and it's
them meeting Wonder Woman for the first time. Now, basically
the storyline is a group called the Purge still some
Kryptonid from Metropolis. They free a creature known as Bizarro,
and then they hire an Amazonian woman with red hair
who's also from Themiscara, but for some reason tells everybody

(04:21:49):
that her name is Diana. And the reason why this
storyline is my number three Batman v. Superman storyline is
because there are so many great character beats in it.
Have you read the story I have not. In this
story in the first issue, when Batman discovers the Kryptonite
has been stolen from Metropolis, he gets in his car

(04:22:09):
has Alfred driving Metropolis and he meets up with Clark
and he discovers that Clark was in the Fortress of
Solitude the ninth Kryptonite was stolen. So actually Batman kind
of disapproves.

Speaker 1 (04:22:20):
He's like, you were you were only out that night, right,
And Clark said, yeah, I just went out of night
and he's like, are you sure, And so he's like yeah,
and so there's a funny beat. Clark thinks to himself
in caption boxes, I know what he's thinking. Crime never
takes a vacation. But there's no beautiful sunsets way down
in that cave. Bruce, I feel like you're showing off
doing your Superman voices because I can't do a Batman

(04:22:42):
or a Superman voice.

Speaker 2 (04:22:43):
Oh, I'm just I'm just doing a Clark voice. I'm
just teasing you. I feel quote when I do quotes,
I think it sounds dumb. If I just read him,
I'm like, I think he's down there taking a vacation. No,
it's like Superman gravitas. I haven't done my Batman voice yet. Well,
I'm looking forward to it. No, you do my Batman voice? Yes?

Speaker 4 (04:22:59):
Why?

Speaker 1 (04:22:59):
I do a sho bil Batman voice, which is which
is of course is where's that rag r? Which is Batman?

Speaker 2 (04:23:04):
But I have a voice that if I ever got
cast as Batman, I would say, oh okay, let me
let me try to figure out something. I would say, dude, Clark,
what do you think you're doing?

Speaker 1 (04:23:18):
Come over here.

Speaker 2 (04:23:20):
You're only taking a vacation tonight, right, I'm Batman. That
would be the voice that I would use as my Batman.

Speaker 1 (04:23:30):
I think that was a great audition and we look
forward to welcoming you onto the project.

Speaker 2 (04:23:34):
You'll see me next year in Batman and the Wildcats. Clark,
he's kind of like this, He's Clark. There you go
story Trinity. So after that moment, of course, Wonder Woman
their first meeting with Batman, she sees Bruce terrorizing a
criminal and she tells him that you have to be

(04:23:55):
merciful to them, and Batman replies, oh, here's a Batman line.

Speaker 1 (04:23:57):
Here you go, Okay, I don't have time for mercy.

Speaker 2 (04:24:02):
That is such a Batman line.

Speaker 1 (04:24:06):
So again, it's the character beats.

Speaker 2 (04:24:08):
The art's amazing, and it's funny like when Superman first
meets one woman he kind of flirts with there, and
Batman's of course, like, I don't have the time of
day for you, Like I'm busy. I'm a businessman, I'm
a billionaire.

Speaker 1 (04:24:20):
I have stuff to do.

Speaker 2 (04:24:23):
That that's a bad man. So this is why I
think it is. If you're going to read a Batman v.
Superman storyline, a Batman Superman storyline, Trinity has to be
one of your top choices. It was, it was just
released in a deluxe Hardcover's awesome, So I think Ashley,
you should definitely check it out. Great character beats and

(04:24:44):
they fight Bizarro, rosal Ghoul and another. Amazon It's awesome.
Can I borrow your copy of it?

Speaker 1 (04:24:49):
Sure?

Speaker 2 (04:24:49):
Cool? Then I'll read it. Cool. Done, sold, sold Caryptonian.
All right, Ashley, And again, as I said that Batman,
he doesn't have time for mercy, but mercy, how about
giving us some mercy over at patreon dot com slash jowin.
If you don't know what that is, or if you
don't know what mercy is, they'll then let us give
you a lesson. Well, first off, Mercy is actually a

(04:25:11):
Superman the animated series character who is the assistant of
Lex Luthor, and there's strong rumors that she's going to
up here and Batman v. Superman Donald Justice. See this
all ties together. But if we're talking about the mercy kind,
like the support that you give to artists of stuff
that you like, like geek history lesson and all the
videos we do over at YouTube dot com slash jawen,

(04:25:32):
you can go to Patreon dot com slash jawin and
give any monetary amount that you deem worthy every month.
That's right.

Speaker 1 (04:25:40):
We're not asking for a thing for everything we do.
We're not asking for a thing for everything that we think.

Speaker 4 (04:25:45):
Give me.

Speaker 2 (04:25:45):
Do you understand me? Why is it always called a thing?

Speaker 4 (04:25:47):
Jim?

Speaker 2 (04:25:48):
Why is it always called a thing?

Speaker 1 (04:25:49):
Jim? Ah?

Speaker 2 (04:25:49):
But we only ask for an amount once per month
to help us out with this lesson, and we also
give you cool things like for three dollars a month,
you get the Geek History Lesson episodes early. For five
dollars a month, you get the Patreon exclusive Geek History
Lesson Extra podcast. Now, we will never upload that podcast
to anywhere else. It will only exist on Patreon. So

(04:26:11):
if you're a fan of Geek History Lesson, you're only
getting half the experience. I'm just telling you right there.
So if you like mercy, like I said, it helps us,
helps keys the lights on, and it goes to keeping
server costs down and everything like that around the Mine University.
Thank you all to everyone who supports us over there
Patreon dot com, slash Jawan. Back to the lesson of
Batman vs. Superman, Done of Justice, Ashley Dundun. Yeah, I

(04:26:35):
am Batman. What is your number two?

Speaker 1 (04:26:38):
Well, my number two and I guess i'd have to
be Kerry Kelly because this is about as deep as
my voice robb F. Yeah, my number two is was
originally an animated series episode.

Speaker 2 (04:26:52):
I was gonna say movie, but that's a lie. I
think the first time, if if I believe what you're
talking about, can I go ahead and say your choice?

Speaker 1 (04:27:00):
And later became an issue of the Batman and Superman
Adventure comic book written and it's written by like six people.
What is your choice?

Speaker 2 (04:27:07):
You haven't said that yet, World's Finest Thank you. I
believe the first time it was broadcast, it was broadcast altogether,
and I think later it was broken up into three episodes, yes,
because it is a whole two hour long event. But
the one that I'm specifically thinking about, I believe is
the part is part of part two but begins at
the end of part one.

Speaker 1 (04:27:27):
Well, it just call the whole thing, but specifically, like
I want to call this out for the scene where
Batman and Superman meet for the first time, because there's
all this delivery stuff that's going on.

Speaker 2 (04:27:36):
There's Joker stuff, there's Lowest stuff.

Speaker 1 (04:27:37):
Well, well basically this story Lane, if I remember right,
is Joker still's kryptonite, which causes Batman to follow Joker
to Metropolis, and then Joker works with Lex Luthor and
then Batman Superman team up and Bruce almost gets Lowest
to leave. Clark. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a big Yeah,
there's a big deal where like Bruce seduces, Bruce seduces

(04:27:58):
that's my new band's name, Lois, and Clark is not
terribly happy about how are you doing, Lois?

Speaker 2 (04:28:05):
Hey, Clarik, what can I do for you? I'm not Clark,
I'm Bruce, Hi, Bruce.

Speaker 1 (04:28:10):
But I'm actually I just I just default assume that
you're playing Superman because that's that's how high I think
of you. All right, Oh god, I almost dropped my timer.
So basically what happens is Batman shows up in Metropolis
after Bruce Wayne has been there for a while because
you know, they're always showing up in the same place,

(04:28:32):
and then he is interrogating this thug and Superman shows
up and he doesn't really like what Batman's doing because
he's a little extreme, and then Batman kind of kicks
his butt a little bit, which is really cool, and
he peeks under Batman's mask and he figures out that
it's Bruce Wayne and having Matt Bruce Wayne before and
given that their interaction wasn't uh too friendly, differently, uh

(04:28:55):
you know, this is kind of a big deal and
he's not too happy about that. And then Batman and
of course has some Kryptonite with him, and he kind
of tells Suberman what's happened. And then there's a scene
later where Superman goes back to his apartment and Superman
in the animated series is like a really cool nineteen
fifties art deco apartment.

Speaker 2 (04:29:13):
All in Metropolis is a cool and nineteen fifties are
deca I.

Speaker 1 (04:29:16):
Know, but I'm just like man like that. I know
your journalists, but like, how do you make them much?

Speaker 2 (04:29:20):
There's no way he can afford it.

Speaker 1 (04:29:21):
It's money. And then it's well, he's in his really
cool ninety fifty star deco apartment. Of course he sees
that Batman has figured out who he is as well,
and then after this, Superman kind of grows this grudging
respect for Batman, even though he doesn't like Batman's methods
and he doesn't really like Bruce Wayne. But they do

(04:29:42):
it so simply, and I think because it was developed
for animation and then even when they kind of migrated
that over into.

Speaker 2 (04:29:49):
The comics, it's just they do it.

Speaker 1 (04:29:50):
It's it tells you, like the way they discover each
other's identities tells you about their strength. It tells you
about how good they are at their jobs, and the
fact that they can take that information and get beyond
it to come together and work as a deem for
the greater good. I just think is a lot of
very subtle storytelling that kind of gets missed when you're
doing your dark and gritty comings.

Speaker 2 (04:30:08):
Well, I'm gonna put this out there for me. This movie,
this animated episode is the best meeting of Batman and
Superman ever.

Speaker 1 (04:30:22):
And you told me once that you thought that they
should basically just lift the scene. Yes, because of the
scene where.

Speaker 2 (04:30:30):
Superman, like I said, you kind of undersold a little bit,
because Superman finds a tracking device on his cape and
it's shaped like a and he he tracks. He looks
out his window and he's with his telescopic vision. You
see the camera zoom, zoom and zoom to this building
that you think is probably over a mile away, and

(04:30:51):
you see Batman sitting on top of that and he's
looking with binoculars and then he sees that Superman sees him,
and he puts down the binoculars, smiles and waves and
jumps off the building. Yeah, you know, and you're like,
that is so brilliant.

Speaker 1 (04:31:05):
You know again, like that moment, no dialogue, very simple
storytelling devices. But that's like so Superman and so Batman
like exemplifies both of them to a t. So yeah,
World's Finest Download the movie. Download all three of the
episodes on Amazon Prime. It is or go go dig
up the comic book out of a quarter bin somewhere. Yay, yay.

Speaker 2 (04:31:29):
And your number two, number two, number two. My number
two is actual number two. My number two. I am
not a number. I am a man.

Speaker 1 (04:31:39):
I am a free man.

Speaker 2 (04:31:40):
That's a reference to the presenter. But you're welcome. My
number two is actually a number three, and by that
I mean it is Superman The Man of Steel number three,
written by John Byrne and drawn by John Byrn. Now,
if you don't know, this was John Byrn's Man of
Steel mini series reboot for the Man of Steel after

(04:32:00):
the Crisis on Infinite Earths. Now, by the time that
DC debuted Superman and the Man of Steel again in
nineteen eighty six. Superman and Batman had already teamed up
countless times over the years. However, this story was all
about updating Superman's origin story, bringing him into the modern age.
And of course this was a very young Superman, so
this was the new way of how Superman met Batman. Yes,

(04:32:22):
in issue number three, Superman Batman fresh on the job,
and Superman randomly flies over at Gotham and catches Batman
in the middle of an act of beating a criminal up. Now,
he grabs Batman's grappling hook and starts dragging him to
taking him to the police. He's like, I'm going to
rush a vigil annie and Batman basically stops him with

(04:32:44):
a bluff. Nowman, Batman's like, hey, look at me, and
Superman looks at him, and he sees that Batman has
an electromagic field around him, and Batman tells Superman that
if Superman touches him again, he will break the circuit
of the field, and an innocent member of Gotham's that
he will die from a bomb that Batman placed on them.

(04:33:04):
Batman's a dick. So Superman is so shocked by this
that Batman's like, look, let me continue with my investigation
and then I'll happily turn off the bomb.

Speaker 1 (04:33:15):
You gotta let me do it.

Speaker 2 (04:33:16):
So this Superman's like, fine, but grudgingly, whatever this guy.
So him and Batman team up and they take down
the really ridiculous Superman villain Magpie, and then at the
very end they put her in jail, and Superman's like, wow,
you actually did a pretty decent job there, Batman. We

(04:33:37):
got to talk about this bomb though, because I'm still
pretty pissed at you about this. Yeah, And Batman reveals
he takes this little piece of this little fiber or whatever,
this little machine out of his belt, and he reveals
that the bomb was on him the entire time, and
because he wasn't going to risk anybody's life, and he
figured that Superman with his supersensus, could tell if he

(04:33:58):
was lying or not. So he was like, I threatened
myself and I figured you'd buy the bluff. Interesting, and
so Superman was like, huh, okay, I admire you, but
I don't really like you. See you later, buddy, and
flies off. Now, I think that that let John Burn
set the stage for many adventures to come, and I

(04:34:18):
think it let readers catch a hint of where this
relationship was going to be in the post crisis world.
And also it immediately set up that this wasn't the
same like, gee, Willikers, let's play baseball with Robin, world's
finest duo that we'd seen for fifty years. Yeah, yeah,
you know that's why I like it. Is definitely my
number two great art by John Byrn for me. You
can't beat the John Byrn drawn Superman.

Speaker 1 (04:34:40):
And and and the fact that that is such a
daring bluff on Batman's part, that Batman's like I'm gonna
kill somebody.

Speaker 2 (04:34:47):
Tells you a lot about thatman. Yeah, you know, like
you're gonna let me do my thing, and then you
find out that the person that he's gonna kill was
gonna be himself. Also side bart, there's nothing wrong with
playing baseball with Robin.

Speaker 4 (04:34:57):
No.

Speaker 2 (04:34:57):
But but I'm just saying, like I know, I'm past
the ge Willickers, got another strike Batman by war Bonds.
Yeah all right, Ashley, all right, Jason, we're at the moment,
the moment where the justice is going to dawn Dona DNA.
What is your number one Batman the Superman story.

Speaker 1 (04:35:19):
Well, I would hazard that there is almost no justice
being wrought in my number one.

Speaker 2 (04:35:23):
There's no Donnie, there's no Donna. There's no justice there
is is there any of those?

Speaker 1 (04:35:28):
There's baseball? What the hell did you pick?

Speaker 2 (04:35:33):
Im? Vicked?

Speaker 1 (04:35:33):
Of course, if you know me and you know my
Batman taste, I had to go Jeff Low to missale
joint on this. And there was this little book called
Superman Slash Batman Colon Secret Files two thousand and three,
and the third story in that is a little thing
called When Clark Met Bruce Colon a tale from the
days of Smallville, and the synopsis is many years ago,

(04:35:55):
Alfred Pennyworth drives young Bruce Wayne across the country. The
car breaks down the smallfield Kansas, and Alfred makes repairs.
In a nearby field, Clark, Kent and beat Ross play baseball.
They noticed the sad looking Wayne child in the window
of the car just as it drives away, and Clark
wonders if perhaps they should have asked him to play
ball with them. I really like this story because it

(04:36:19):
makes me feel things, and I also want to know
why Batman and Alfred or Bruce Wayne, like baby Bruce
Wayne and Alfred are driving through Kansas, like where are
they going to some weird training facility for Bruce to go?
Sometimes I find that Master Bruce locks to look at
the cows. It makes him not think about his mommy

(04:36:40):
and daddy being in the gray. Nice.

Speaker 2 (04:36:44):
Why there you go off official Alfred reasons. I am
surprised that you pick this why. I know that you
like Tim Sale, I know that you like Jeff Low.
I'm actually surprised that you didn't pick the Greg Pack
redo of this.

Speaker 1 (04:37:02):
Well.

Speaker 2 (04:37:02):
I was going to bring that up as well.

Speaker 1 (04:37:04):
I like that version way better. I was gonna say,
I do think that the Greg Pack and of course can't.
I'm not certain whether it took place in actual comics
or Batman Superman.

Speaker 2 (04:37:12):
I can't remember. It's action comics.

Speaker 1 (04:37:14):
Okay. I do think the redo is better because you
actually get to see them interacting, which I think is
a little.

Speaker 2 (04:37:21):
Bit more interesting. But this was the first one, so
that's why I picked it.

Speaker 1 (04:37:28):
That's a fair point.

Speaker 2 (04:37:29):
But in the redo, I like it better, I guess
for me because in that Bruce does get out of
the car and they play baseball. Yeah, and and and
Bruce plays baseball and they and Clark gets a home run.
But then Bruce like Karate chops the crap out of
Clark and completely like doesn't expect it. And then the
thing that brings a tier to my eye in that

(04:37:51):
story in the in the Redo is Jonathan kenn at
one point walks over to Alfred and says, the cars fixed,
what are you doing? And Alfred says, I haven't seen it,
Bruce smile in years? Can you just have another thirty minutes?

Speaker 1 (04:38:08):
Yeah? I liked The thing that I liked about the
original with him not getting out of the car is
for me, them looking at each other through the window
is very much a metaphor of the wall that Batman
always has around everyone, even Superman, and it is that
it closes with Clark being like, I should have done better.

Speaker 2 (04:38:25):
And it is yeah, so it fits both of them
that Batman won't let them be in and then Clark's like,
oh I could have done more. It is very I
will say that I love these little stories and stuff
like that. It is completely coincidental that they would have
ever met. Yeah, I mean this is.

Speaker 1 (04:38:40):
Very much almost in ELT's world's stories.

Speaker 2 (04:38:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:38:43):
Yeah, But it's one of those things where like, maybe
it doesn't live in my head canon. If I was
going to sit down and map out what I thought
all these characters' lives were. But it's such a sweet
idea and these characters, and again, this is a great
more something like superheroes are American gods or as close.

Speaker 2 (04:38:57):
As we have to like mythology, Yes, they are American mythology.

Speaker 1 (04:39:01):
And the idea that like they're going to take these
two gods and fantilize them, put them in the Midwest,
like the American heartland, and have them interact or even
if it's you know, through distance over a game of baseball,
Like I think from that kind of meta storytelling perspective
is really nice. And you like the art and I
like the art choice. It's solid choice, and it's like

(04:39:21):
five pages long, so it's the easiest story to read. Yeah,
that's why you should read it. That's why what's your
number one Batman v?

Speaker 2 (04:39:31):
Superman story? When I thought about this list as a
Batman v. Superman list, for me, there was no other
choice to put it a number one. Then the Dark
Night returns. Of course, this is the best Batman v.

(04:39:54):
Superman storyline? Is Frank Miller's the best thing Frank Miller
has ever drawn, the best thing he's ever written. It
has an amazing movie adaptation by Bruce tim And if
you don't know what this is, basically, Bruce is an
old man in the future and he had been in
retirement for ten years Gotham City. He's gone to Hell.
He comes back out of retirement, gains a new Robin

(04:40:15):
called Kerry Kelly, and after taking control of Gotham with
Marshal Law the President who now presidents, and Superman, who
now works for the government to stop him. After the
superheroes have been outlawed, Batman tells Superman to meet him
in Crime Alley, and Superman and him showdown in Crime Alley,
and you find out again that it is a stalling

(04:40:35):
tactic for Batman to position Superman at the right place
so that Green Arrow can hit him with the Krypton
I arrow that Bruce synthesized. Now again, the armor that
Ben Fleck is wearing in Batman v. Superman is the
armor from the Dark Knight returns. There's a lot. I
guarantee you there's gonna be a lot of homages in
that movie to this and again, so many great lines

(04:40:59):
of dialogueespecially from Batman, because the whole thing is told
from Batman's perspective. You hear his caption boxes and he
fights Clark and beats him, and he says this line
in the book. And I'm putting money right now. I
could be completely wrong. I bet it's in Batman v. Superman,
he says, when he kicks Superman in the face and

(04:41:20):
beats him, he says, I want you to remember the
one man that beats you. That's going to be in
the movie.

Speaker 1 (04:41:27):
I guarantee you.

Speaker 2 (04:41:28):
And like I said, I hope they have Afflecks say
it because it's so iconic, it's so rememberable to me. Again,
for me, the Dark Knight Returns is the greatest Batman
storyline of all. And I remember reading this as I
think I was like twelve or eleven. I saw it
as an old weird triber paperback in an old weird
story called a store called on Cue. If you remember

(04:41:49):
those stories, shout out to me on Twitter if you
remember what on Cues are. They don't exist anymore. They
went bankrupt. That's where I got my comics nice and
I remember reading that and until that point, somewhere in
the I'm in nineties, I had never considered Batman and
Superman fighting each other interesting, and so for me, this

(04:42:10):
was the first time I ever saw them fight. And
also for me, it's one of the best justifications because
and now, I think because the Dark Knight Returns, it's
very easy to make Batman and Superman fight each other.

Speaker 1 (04:42:24):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (04:42:26):
But I don't think any story has done it as
well as The Dark Knight Returns. I also think, again,
one of the only times that I believe that Batman
could actually beat him.

Speaker 1 (04:42:36):
I think that's interesting because it is arguably an Elseworld story.

Speaker 2 (04:42:40):
Oh, it's totally an Elseworld story. So I think it's
interesting that that's kind of your number.

Speaker 1 (04:42:44):
One, although it's so weird that recently, especially in the
New fifty two, they have done a lot of winks
and nods towards it. I'll tell you exactly why. It's
because all the people who grew up reading that are
right in.

Speaker 2 (04:42:55):
The guns are right in the Yeah. But yeah, my
number one best Batman v. Superman storyline is the Dark
Knight Return. You went very v on that, Yes, I did.
You went like the opposite of mine.

Speaker 1 (04:43:07):
Yeah, all right.

Speaker 2 (04:43:08):
So, of course, while we were debating our list, we
couldn't put everything in the five and we knew that
we were going to leave some stuff off. I know
there's some people out there that are yelling us about
what about those one and what about that? When Ashley,
do you have any honorable mentions? What almost made it
onto your list?

Speaker 1 (04:43:23):
I don't have a lot of honorable mentions because this
was a really hard list for me to make interesting
because just to be completely honest, I haven't read a
ton of Superman stuff, and I didn't just want to
pick like a Justice Lee story. Yeah tell me, you know,
I wanted it to be like very focal to these characters.
I came very close to picking JLA New World Order.

(04:43:43):
I'll just say that, because there's some great Batman Superman
moments at I thought about putting The Dark Knight Returns
on my list, but I don't like that.

Speaker 2 (04:43:52):
I know you don't like that story.

Speaker 1 (04:43:53):
I don't think there's anything wrong with it, it's just
not to my taste. And then then again, yeah, like
I really struggled to find stories where they fought, and
I was like, I don't know, No, so I don't
have any. Also, Rent, I have two, Okay.

Speaker 2 (04:44:06):
The first honorable mention is Batman Hush, written by Jeff
Loeb and Jim Lee's twelve issues where Batman is investigating
the mystery of this villain named Hush, and in like
the fourth or third issue I can't remember, he goes
to Metropolis. He fights Superman in the sewers. He punches
Superman in the face with the Krypton nine yeah ring
and the only thing Superman's possessed by poison ivy and

(04:44:28):
the only thing that stops him is he threatens to
throw Lowest Lane off the side of the building. Now,
the reason why I didn't pick it is because I
also like Batman Superman storylines to have consequences, and to me,
they just did that for the one issue. Now it's
a great storyline, but for me, not my top sick,
not my top five. Another one that I thought about
was Batman in Game. The very opening issue is the

(04:44:50):
Just Leagues possessed by the Joker and Batman fight Superman
a giant suit of Batman armor. I didn't like that
the Joker possessed Superman. I don't buy that. I agree,
and it rings untrue for me for some reason. So
that's the reason why I knocked that off. THO, there's
my two women.

Speaker 1 (04:45:05):
I lied. I almost put Composite Superman on here because
I almost because I really wanted to. It was really
important to me to have because obviously like a Golden
Age yet to have a Golden Aage story, or at
least a celebrated story, because that's why I put Man
of Steel on here, or the John Burns storyline. Yeah,
because so much of my reading is just obviously like
nineties or like even eighty five forward.

Speaker 2 (04:45:24):
Well now especially too, it's very in to make Batman
Superman fight, which of course it all started from Dark
Knight Returns, but then because of the video game Injustice, yeah,
now it's super popular.

Speaker 1 (04:45:35):
And I haven't read any of the Injustice ty in comics.
They're supposed to be great, but I would assume that
there's some good Batman v. Superman action in there. But
the reason I left off Composite Superman and I decided
to just stick with the classics story is because Composite
Superman is like really silly.

Speaker 2 (04:45:53):
It is.

Speaker 1 (04:45:54):
It is very like it's kind of everything good and
terrible about the Golden Age, whereas I feel like, even
though there's there's goofy stuff that happens in Superman seventy six,
for the most part, you can just kind of go
with it and it still holds up as a solid
Batman Superman story.

Speaker 2 (04:46:08):
So I did.

Speaker 1 (04:46:09):
I almost had composite Superman.

Speaker 2 (04:46:10):
There you go. Well, those are our lists, and just
let you know that all of our choices in whatever
form you can get them, you can find on geekishry
lesson dot com, slash recommended Reading, or go to gekishe
lesson dot com click on recommended reading. They're all there
and you click on them the image of the story
that you want to read, and they'll take you to
Amazon and you can see that book. You can purchase
that book, and a percentage of your purchase will come

(04:46:32):
back to the Mind University and help us all out.
And guess what, it will give you the perfect story
to read after you walk out of Batman v. Superman,
right after.

Speaker 1 (04:46:41):
You go to the midnight showing at three o'clock in
the morning, you can pick up Red Sun and go
from there. Wait, how is the midnight showing at three
o'clock in the morning. Well, it'll be over at three
o'clock in the morning. O, Sinny, gotta drive home talk
to your friends about it.

Speaker 2 (04:46:50):
Yeah, you got you got a periscope and do all
that stuff like that. All right, guys, so you may
be wondering, Okay, why did we decide to do Batman v.
Superman stories for the week that bat Man Superman came out? Well,
because we had to do a couple podcasts that required
a lot of research. Wait, w yeah, that's right, because
I want to announce Ashley. Next week you are doing

(04:47:14):
a geek history lesson on what character that we talked
a lot about in this podcast, Batman. Say that again
in case that you couldn't hear the Whisperman. That's right,
Ashley is finally doing the geek history lesson on Batman bracket. Well,
we'll save that for later. I have to find out

(04:47:35):
what that. There is a bracket.

Speaker 1 (04:47:37):
There's caveats.

Speaker 2 (04:47:37):
Yep, we love caveats. And the next week after that,
I will be doing a geek history lesson doing the
voice on Superman. So there you go.

Speaker 1 (04:47:48):
Two weeks.

Speaker 2 (04:47:49):
We're gonna have three weeks of Batman and Superman. Goodness,
I think you're gonna love these lessons, but they required
a lot of research.

Speaker 1 (04:47:55):
And before everyone gets all up on arms about it
on Twitter, wonder Woman has come closer to her movie.
There you go.

Speaker 2 (04:48:02):
We decided to save the Wondrous wonder Woman, So there
you go. Those are coming in the next two weeks.
So we hope you enjoyed our top five list.

Speaker 1 (04:48:10):
Head on to recommended reading, get all that reading, Read
all the Batman's and the Superman's as you can.

Speaker 2 (04:48:14):
And then imagine Batman in this voice every time you
hear it.

Speaker 1 (04:48:19):
Batman, Hey, DC animated, I want that Batman rashtag Jason
for Batman Robin. Yes, you doing okay, everybody?

Speaker 2 (04:48:27):
So if you want to suggest that, if you like
this top five list, you want to suggest future top
five lists for us? Actually, where can they do that?

Speaker 1 (04:48:34):
Well, you can go to geekistory lesson dot com or
Facebook dot com slash geekistory lessons. All the appropriate conduists
to talk to us are open.

Speaker 2 (04:48:41):
You'd love to hear, like what your ideas are, like,
Maybe we should do a top five suicide squad movie
or stories that would be interesting. I think I'd have
to do so much research.

Speaker 1 (04:48:49):
We have to probably we probably have to do it.
We probably do it together. Yeah, yeah, I think it's
probably what I was like.

Speaker 2 (04:48:53):
Are there even five susides CLO stories? I think so yes, okay, yea, yeah,
I think there totally is five. Well I've read exactly zero,
so here's what I know.

Speaker 1 (04:49:00):
All right, don't forget guys.

Speaker 2 (04:49:02):
You can find this podcast on iTunes, Stitcher, and SoundCloud
at SoundCloud dot com, slash geek History Lesson and if
we would do us a favor, please go over there
and leave us a rating in a review because it
lets other listeners find the podcast. It's the perfect way
to let this podcast grow. We need you to go
over there and give us a star rating because that
way you can be awesome, and that way we won't
come after you with like like the V and blank

(04:49:24):
V blank Dona Justice, we won't don adjustice you.

Speaker 1 (04:49:28):
So there you go.

Speaker 2 (04:49:29):
You can find me on Twitter at John if you
want to complain about any of my voices, and you
can find Ashley on Twitter at Ashley V.

Speaker 1 (04:49:35):
Robinson.

Speaker 2 (04:49:36):
If you think that when Clark met Bruce is not
a real bad NV Superman story, I'm not saying that,
but somebody on Twitter might.

Speaker 1 (04:49:43):
Well you can just take that tweet and not send
it to me, just like the don Justice. All right,
all right, super friends, go on out there to the
Hall of Justice. Enjoy your movies, read you some books.
I'm Jason Vanman. I am actually Ashley V. Robinson. You're
Ashley as versus the Robinson. I was born that way.
We don't create the dawn of justice. I'm probably the

(04:50:05):
Robinson part because that's the shoutier part of.

Speaker 2 (04:50:07):
My nice Well, Professor Ashley, would you please close out
this Hall of Justice? Amazing top five list of a podcast.
Hey Batman, what class is dismissed?

Speaker 4 (04:50:20):
Robin?

Speaker 1 (04:50:23):
Be quiet, Robin

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