Best Marvel Comics Stories MEGA EPISODE (Best Wolverine Stories, Best Daredevil Stories, Best Iron Fist Stories, Best X-Men Stories)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
It's podcasting time. Hello and welcome to Geek History Lesson.
I am Ashley Victoria Robinson. Then New Year is right
around the corner, and we can't ring in the New
Year without some Marvel comics. So we thought we did
our best DC Comic Stories mega episode. It is signed
for our best Marvel Comics Stories mega episode here on

(00:21):
Geek History Lesson. This episode is going to feature our
best Wolverine stories, best Iron Fist stories, and best X
Men stories, so that you have some recommendations on what
to read as New Year's Eve creeps on new and
you struggle on this stay awake until midnight so that
we can ring in twenty twenty six the right way possible.
There are great guests on this episode. There are fantastic recommendations,

(00:42):
So without further ado, take it away past Jason and
past Ashley. He's the best at what he does, and
what he does isn't very nice, but some stories are
your Geek History Lesson On the best Wolverine Stories is
now in session. Hello and welcome to Geek History Lesson.
I'm Ashley Victoria Robinson.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
And I'm Jason. The best podcast at what he does,
but what he podcasts isn't very nice inman.

Speaker 1 (01:08):
Well you podcast isn't very nice. Sometimes it's not welcome
to your university. Because this is geek history, lesson everybody,
the podcast where we teach you about one character, one team,
or one book in pop culture and tell you everything
you need to know about them. And today is a
very Canadian episode, you could call it. Today is a
very Northern episode. We are talking about mister Wolverine. That

(01:33):
is his full name, correct, mister Ezekiel Wolverine ezekielo.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
Yes, but Marvel Comics very famous character. We are going
to give you our opinions on what we think are
some of the best Wolverine stories out there. Of course,
like as you know with all of our previous list episodes,
if you've listened before, and if you haven't listened before,
welcome helloon listener. But if you have listened before, we
always talk about our personal favorite story is not the
objective best, so you know, and nobody's opinion is right

(02:00):
and nobody's opinion is wrong. That's how opinions work. And
we are joined today by very very special guest Ashley,
because we're the reason we decided to talk about best
Wolverine Stories is because there is a ram shacking I
don't even know as a word, hood boggle, hood boggling

(02:21):
Marvel Comics event that is all about Wolverine, the X
Lives of Wolverine.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
And or the ten Lives of Wolverine. Oh, that's correct
if we're using Roman numerals, you know, Okay, Let would
I still say X of stories to like whatever I
have heard it said on interviews? It is, and I've
heard our special guests actually say it is ten lives
of war around ten deaths of Wolverine, just like House
of X, Powers of X that Jonathan Hickman Hicksban Event

(02:47):
Hawks Box.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
I kind of like X lies, so do I next test?

Speaker 1 (02:51):
But so let me say his name because current Wolverine
scribe Ben Percy, and x fource scribe and former GHL guest, Yes,
Ben Percy, who's written Wolverdine many mediums, which we'll talk
about more with him, but he is joining us for
the discussion portion. We're super excited. Ben is a very
very talented writer, very very sweet man, so please stick

(03:13):
around and listen. But Jason, before we get to some
tas for this episode of all wait, we should talk
about tas first, Okay, our tas are Adam Eely and
Glenn Shipley. Thank you so much for requesting our best Wolverine.
Can't believe these are These are like old school suggest
Adam Eely, I don't know if it's actually pronounce Eely.
I apologize and mispronounce your last name. This is like
he has a diet in the wall og G. This

(03:35):
is like a tumbler error request GHL. So, but I
want to ask you before we move on, Jason, uh,
do you know you said mister Wolverine is his real name?
What's Wolverine's full name? What's his Christian name? James Hallett,
James Logan? That's right, Yeah, all right, And we have
one more thing we want to tell you all about today,

(03:57):
right Jason, Yes, that's right.

Speaker 2 (03:59):
Everybody out there, as you know you've been a longtime
listener or a brand new listener to this podcast, you
know that I am just a Kansas farm boy who
loves comic books, loves Superman, and basically loves everything that
has to do with the Silver Age of comics. And
for a while now I've been wanting to inject some
more of that love into comic books. And that is

(04:20):
something that has led me to Kickstarter, and that is
why I am proud to announce that Super Best Friend
issue too. The second issue of my superhero series is
coming to Kickstarter February first, you can go to Super
Best Friendcomic dot com. That link will be in the description,

(04:42):
and if the campaign is live, you can get all
kinds of tears as all kinds of cool things. There's
a lot of love of Electric Superman in there, There's
a lot of love of cyborg Superman in there. Basically
all my love of Superman is in Super Best Friend.
We had a very successful first issue and now we
got a second issue coming. But I need everybody that
is listening that can hear this podcast to come on

(05:03):
over to Kickstarter. At super Best friendcomic dot com, there's
a lot of really cool early bird specials and there's
a variant cover by a d C Comics superstar. So basically,
if you haven't heard about this comic book, the elevator
pitch is what if the world's greatest superhero had a
best friend who accidentally live streamed his secret identity to

(05:27):
the entire world And what does that lead to and
what zany exploits is that you know, basically, get up
to or what happened? You know, basically you understand you
understand it? Right, last Ashley, you get this.

Speaker 1 (05:39):
I mean I've read the issue and I know how
spectacular it is.

Speaker 3 (05:42):
That's true, I ever read ahead as well.

Speaker 1 (05:43):
I also want to say, if people want to ferret
out who the DC Superstar guest artist is, I would
look at the jutul archives.

Speaker 3 (05:50):
Didn't make an educated guess.

Speaker 2 (05:51):
There's a yeah, I would say that that is a
very strong guest. But yes, we have a DC comic
superstar who did a variant cover for Super Best Friends.
So come over the help me. It's a forty eight
page comic that you can only get on Kickshare. You
can only get this variant cover on Kickstarter as well,
so come over and check it out. It's going to
be a lot of fun. We're gonna be doing a
lot of live streams Super Bestfriendcomic dot com. Thanks everybody.

Speaker 1 (06:15):
By the way, that's two point four times more pages
than your average.

Speaker 2 (06:18):
That's right, that's right. So there we go, all right cool.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
I want to say before we dive into our list
that if you are a newer listener and you're screaming
but I thought this was a Wolverine episode. Well, my friend,
we have two times as many Wolverine episodes already. Episode
one Fife of Geek History lesson our are two barter
history lessons on Wolverine, and I also want to start
with in the proud tradition of GHL, a caveat. Since

(06:43):
our guest Ben Percy is writing the current and not
yet finished Wolverine, we're not going to be including his
books because the run hasn't ended yet. We're not trying
to spoil anything for anybody who's not super caught up
on contemporary comics, and because I hope that you know
that if we invited him to be a guest on
the podcast, we think his work is pretty awesome. So
his books will be in the recommended reading, but they're
not going to be on any of our list.

Speaker 2 (07:04):
His run is excellent one because he brings that back
my favorite nineties X main character, Maverick. But also, yeah,
Ashley's correct, it would be too soon. Although I'm very
certain that his running added to this list. It's a
little it's it's you know, mister person. We know Ben,
we know Benjamin. We've broken bread, we've drank beer together.

(07:30):
You'll get there in two times.

Speaker 1 (07:33):
If it is your best Wolverine podcast, man, you'd be
number one.

Speaker 2 (07:36):
There you go, all right, Ashley, let's get into this list,
starting at number five, working our way all the way
up to number one. Ashley, what do you think is
the fifth best Wolverine story?

Speaker 1 (07:46):
So I want to say that the title of this
episode and the parameters of this episode are best Wolverine stories. Yes,
not best James Logan Howllett Wolverine stories. Okay, so my
number five best Wolverine is All New Wolverine from twenty
fifteen by Tom Taylor and art by David Lobez.

Speaker 2 (08:05):
Oh, I knew you were in here.

Speaker 1 (08:09):
This is Laura Kenny, like fifteen years after her inception,
finally embracing her destiny being Wolverine, looking hotter in the
costume than Logan ever hoped to look in the costume.
She replaces him as local hero because at this time
in the six one and six he was old Man Logan,
which was like he was dead. Well yeah, but old
Man Logan was.

Speaker 2 (08:30):
It was weird old Man Logan from the alter Yes, yes.

Speaker 1 (08:33):
Laura's Wolverine. It's a really really cool re examination and
reimagination of this character. The creative team takes a really
they take really special care to carve out a unique
identity for Laura, probably because the movie Logan was right
around the corner at Leased in twenty seventeen, so it
would have been filming at this time, so they probably
had some insight on that. Instead of just making her
a carbon copy of Logan, which is something that happens,

(08:56):
and in the great tradition of Wolverine, she strikes up
on her own. She adopts young girls who need a mentor,
and she kicks a bunch of but the whole book
long Also everyone who she mentors are also Wolverine clones,
so a sisterhood gets to develop over the course of
the series amidst dialogue that's like genuinely funny and all
of the violence. And I have really come to respect

(09:18):
this as a good Wolverine story that deserves to stand
in the cannon of Wolverine stories. And just by the
fact that once they sort of took the role of
Wolverine away from Laura, she became a little bit less interesting,
I think proves how great she is in the mantle.
And then also if we can have an early action
figure Spotlight.

Speaker 3 (09:41):
Action figure Spotlight Thank you.

Speaker 1 (09:43):
I have the Laura Wolverine action figure because I couldn't
believe they made it.

Speaker 3 (09:50):
She looks so cool in this.

Speaker 2 (09:52):
And she's we should explain. She's in the classic yellow
home blue.

Speaker 1 (09:55):
The Yellow and Blue. And I think, like Batman and
Jason has made this point for Dick Grayson before, I
think Wolverine as a mentor is his greatest legacy and
what fulfills that more than all New Wolverine And ultimately
it's Wolverine and like you've ever seen it before, So
it's my number five cool and I know that you
like that series as well, but I knew that you

(10:15):
wouldn't put it on your list. That is correct, all right,
So follow the rules properly and tell me what's your
number five best Wolverine stuff.

Speaker 2 (10:23):
So my number five comes from the height of the
New Avengers era, when Wolverine was on the Avengers and
Spider Man was on the Avengers, and then there was
this weird thread at Marvel where they decided that Spider
Man and Wolverine were best friends, which sometimes didn't work
and sometimes really worked well. And this is one of

(10:45):
the stories where it really worked well. I am talking
about the astonishing spider Man and Wolverine limited series by
Jason Aaron and Adam Kubert, who I am going to
put out right now. I think Adam Kubert is the
best artist to ever draw Wolverine.

Speaker 1 (11:00):
Okay, okay, hashtag GHL Wolverine art.

Speaker 2 (11:06):
Yes, I don't know what that means.

Speaker 1 (11:07):
We can do it. Top five Wolverine artists. I mean,
we're top five X Men artists.

Speaker 2 (11:13):
As I've said this many times in the podcast, I
think it's hard to talk about art audio podcast, but sure.
But also Adam Cubert also drew action figure Spotlight Weapon
X the Age of Apocalypse, and that is the only
Wolverine action figure that I own is the recent Marvel

(11:34):
Legends Wolverine. It's so cool because everybody on this listening
this podcast and.

Speaker 1 (11:39):
Know you will have seen that in our and Jason's
Instagram feed about around the time we were recording this episode.

Speaker 2 (11:45):
That's right, actually, no, at the exact day that we
were this episode.

Speaker 1 (11:49):
There you go.

Speaker 2 (11:50):
It's called pre programming your Instagram national. So basically, in
this they they're Avengers at this time and they are
stuck in a weird, wild time traveling adventure. There are
dinosaurs in this, there are cowboys in this, there are
robots in this, there are moon sized villains in this.
It's basically I get the impression that this was Jason

(12:12):
Aaron saying I'm gonna take Spider Man and Wolverine literally
into every corner of the Marvel universe and have fun.
And by all rights, this is a very bombbastic story.
It should not work, but it's the small character moments.
This is, to me, the only story that explains why

(12:35):
these two men would be friends, Because I thank you.
I don't think they would be because I think Peter
Parker would not like Wolverine's killing and draw a hard line.
So it's a little weird that Peter Parker, you know,
the person that's all about great responsibility, would just be

(12:55):
friends with kind of a murder. I mean, look, I
like Wolverine, but he's more anti here than hero. And
I know this is selling you know, crazy here, but like,
let me just give you the opening scene. Okay, The
opening scene is sixty five million years ago. A bearded
Peter Parker looks at the sky through a handmade telescope

(13:15):
and then he eventually goes to a valley and he
meets up with Logan, who also has a long beard
and everything like that, who's now a leader of a
bunch of cavemen. And Peter's like, hey, the asteroid that
killed the dinosaurs, it's a coming see you later. That's
the opening scene, and then you're like, well, how did
they get here? It also has a cliffhanger that I
don't think has ever been addressed in Marvel continuity as

(13:39):
far as I know. Please tell me if I'm wrong
listeners at JHL podcast on Twitter. But I don't think
this cliffhanger, which specifically deals with James Howlett's origin, has
ever been picked up again, and if it has, I
missed it. But anyways, I like this story because it
should not work, and I think it really really does.

(14:00):
And that is my number five.

Speaker 1 (14:02):
Can I have a phone ring? Please?

Speaker 2 (14:04):
Oh you get a I'm not say.

Speaker 1 (14:11):
Deep deep deep de.

Speaker 3 (14:13):
Okay, you need to pick it up.

Speaker 2 (14:17):
Hello zeus.

Speaker 1 (14:18):
Choice of you also offends me.

Speaker 3 (14:20):
I am Logan's best friend. Not it's Pezza Parker.

Speaker 2 (14:23):
Who is this?

Speaker 1 (14:24):
This is Kurtavagnas and kit won Knight's calling you nose
night crawler. Yeah her Vagner, Yeah no, that is Russian.
I am gentman.

Speaker 2 (14:32):
How are the international costs on this call? Pretty Expenser? Huh,
this is the.

Speaker 1 (14:36):
This is twenty twenty two. I am calling you through
a FaceTime on the internet.

Speaker 3 (14:42):
It is free.

Speaker 2 (14:42):
What are you calling about again?

Speaker 1 (14:44):
How dare you pick that Spider Man is Wolverine's best
friend and not me? Look, Kurt, there's Wolverine is my
best friend. There is no I couldn't find. It was
at his wedding. You probably were, I was. I just
read a story. Oh you read your own story? He did.
It's nice. I called my memory remembering sayings reading my story.

Speaker 2 (15:03):
What did you give him as a wedding gift? Kurt?

Speaker 1 (15:05):
Oh? I just gave him my presence and my bluefa.

Speaker 2 (15:08):
Your presence not present?

Speaker 3 (15:10):
My presence is all present?

Speaker 2 (15:11):
Is he pet your belly? So what happens?

Speaker 3 (15:13):
Not to my Betty?

Speaker 2 (15:14):
That's gross?

Speaker 3 (15:15):
But okay, he's got just behind.

Speaker 2 (15:17):
My Well, Kurt, there's no series called Astonishing Nightcrawler and Wolverine.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
Fix that.

Speaker 2 (15:22):
I should fix that. Ah, Okay, you should probably talk
to the Wolverine writer we have on the podcast later.

Speaker 3 (15:28):
I don't thinks have been happened.

Speaker 1 (15:30):
Okay, Well, I'll talk to you later give kisses text texts,
not to here, give kisses to text.

Speaker 2 (15:35):
Okay, all right, by Kurt, All right, there we go.
All right, Ashley, what's your number? Four?

Speaker 1 (15:44):
By number four?

Speaker 2 (15:45):
It's so funny. Apologize it's okay. The sound effects are
not immediate or not, and.

Speaker 1 (15:52):
Only I think it's very evident that only Jason has
control of that, which is why Jason's the only one
who ever calls anyone or text. I'm so sorry for
misnaming text. It's fitting that you bring up origin stories
for Wolverine.

Speaker 2 (16:04):
Oh no, oh no, what, oh no, we'll get into
it if it shows up.

Speaker 1 (16:12):
We'll get into it if it shows up. He has
about one hundred and eighty five of them, Okay, okay,
like all X men. So I really it was really
important to me. In the tradition of Stanley, every comic
might be someone's first comic, and I've noticed that this
does happen. On our best lists to include what I
think is the best and cleanest Wolverine origin story, and

(16:35):
so I include Wolverine Colon Origin twenty thirteen, written by
Paul Jenkins with art by Andy Giver. Why oh no,
I'll let you finish.

Speaker 2 (16:45):
I want to know you'll finish. No, please tell please,
so I will just put this out right now, Ashley.
But I want to hear you finish.

Speaker 1 (16:53):
Do.

Speaker 2 (16:53):
I want to hear what is on the list? I
detest the story.

Speaker 1 (16:57):
I get tell it.

Speaker 3 (16:59):
I didn't know that why.

Speaker 2 (17:02):
I want to hear why you put in the list,
and then I will tell you about this, Okay. I
think for my you're not wrong. You're not wrong.

Speaker 1 (17:06):
I think, for my money, this is the best, cleanest,
clearest Wolverine origin we've ever had.

Speaker 3 (17:13):
Any art looks great like that's art is the best
reason for that story.

Speaker 1 (17:16):
Logan's history up to this point is purposefully vague minus
Weapon X, and that's all kind of muddied in film
and television and comic books. And I admire Marvel or
someone at Marvel coming down and committing to this updated
version of Wolverine's Origin which came out as part of
Marvel Now. And this has pretty much been the story

(17:39):
that they've suck to for this entire point. Paul Jenkins
includes Paul Jenkins is a great writer, but he's a
fantastic writer. He includes all of the greatest hits that
you think of for Wolverine's origin, nineteenth century Canadian origins,
bones Claw, the journey to Metal Clause, the amnesia, and
really perfects it, I think for a contemporary reader set
against a nostalgic Cepiatone backdrop, I just think this is

(18:02):
the best version of the origin story. So I'm truly like,
I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, but I'm like,
truly take it away that you don't like the story.

Speaker 2 (18:11):
I don't like it because they made a big deal
about it when it came out. Yes, of course they did.
And to be honest with you, it's not really a
Wolverine story. It's a story about this kid named James.
And it doesn't even it doesn't even get to weapon
acts Ashley. It gets to he goes to a mine
in Canada. He's being chased by Sabertooth or somebody that

(18:32):
we think is Sabertooth, who's like secretly kind of his
real father. It's never quite or no, it's really his dad,
because Sabertooth. It's here's the reason why I don't like it,
because also it didn't clear up his origin. It's made
it even muddier. And then it just ends with he
doesn't even get the clause. He doesn't even get anything.

(18:53):
You don't get explained about his dad or anything like that.
It's just like, oh, he decides to call himself logan
based on the man who was his fake father, and
then he like walks away.

Speaker 1 (19:02):
Well, I didn't say he got his closes said it
sent him on his way to his clause. Because I
think if you read it his metal, he always a clause.

Speaker 2 (19:06):
But his metal.

Speaker 1 (19:07):
I think if you read this and then you read
like the original Weapon X storyline.

Speaker 2 (19:11):
I think they made a sequel with this too.

Speaker 3 (19:12):
I believe they did. It's not as good.

Speaker 2 (19:15):
No, it's not.

Speaker 1 (19:16):
I think that. I don't know.

Speaker 3 (19:17):
I just I really like my mind.

Speaker 2 (19:19):
My thing is is that. And I in the research
for this podcast, I saw it on a lot of lists. Yeah,
I saw I think I saw it in everything.

Speaker 1 (19:26):
I think the art is what carries this. Yes, the
art is another Kubert by the way. Also the covers fantastic.
I also think it is Cubert.

Speaker 2 (19:34):
Is this Andy? It is Andy? It's because Adam's the
older brother and Andy's the younger brother. Andy's the one
who does the amazing Batman Room with Grant Morrison. Yeah,
you know, Anyways, Adam is the Wolverine guy. Anyways, I
think they do something of this art where they don't
ink it or they they they painted, or they yes,
and so it makes it look even better. But I

(19:55):
just think this is when you talk about unnecessary stories.
This is an unnecessary story. To me, the coolest thing
of Wolverine was that we didn't know his past, and
then when you take that away, he's less interesting. Like

(20:16):
I like the idea that we all I needed from
him was to learn his name, and then to learn
all I ever wanted was Okay, when approximately were you born?
If you tell me eighteen fifties, that's all I need
to know. I don't need to know that he had
a he lived in a mansion, and he went to
a mine in Canada called dog.

Speaker 1 (20:40):
I guess I like this because to me it feels
like a fever dream of who James could have been
Sure if he hadn't become Sure Wolverine. But I don't
disagree with you, though. Do we need a Wolverine origin? Absolutely? Ruly,
but we were never not going.

Speaker 3 (20:58):
To get one.

Speaker 2 (20:58):
Well, the problem is I think with modern what this
happened in mid two thousands, like this was twenty twenty thirteen.
So okay, well, once we got that far like it
was going to happen, I just I think, I just
think it's unncessary. And I also want to apologize. I
I didn't mean to come against you, but like.

Speaker 1 (21:14):
No, that's okay. You just like you've we've never up
to this point where we're almost at four hundred episodes,
we've never in the list looked at each other and
been like, I hardly disagree with this choice. We usually
like I didn't put it on a my list, but
I like, so this was just like a new experience.

Speaker 2 (21:29):
This is this is probably again, and I think there
this is probably my If you were to ask me
what I think is the least best orly that's not
even gored to grammatically, my grammar is terrible.

Speaker 1 (21:39):
The worst would be the Holy Cow It's early Folks, super.

Speaker 2 (21:44):
Best friendcomic dot com ready because I bungled that advertisement.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
Jason is a professional writer in multiple medium.

Speaker 2 (21:51):
Good god.

Speaker 1 (21:53):
This.

Speaker 2 (21:53):
If you were to ask me what I think is
the worst Wolfrain story of all time, I would put
this without it without even hesitating.

Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah, hello wow. And this I want to say also
for listeners, this is the fun thing about having dueling opinions,
and this is how you can disagree respectfully, because I'm
still going to keep it on my list.

Speaker 2 (22:08):
Oh I'm not. I'm not trying to no, no, no, take it.

Speaker 1 (22:10):
No, I know, and I'm not offended by the fact
that you are like, not this one. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:14):
Yeah, I think brought it up because the minute she
mentioned that she could see my face, I was like, oh,
please don't tell me about Yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:20):
I like Origin, man, I think it's a good time.

Speaker 2 (22:22):
I'm glad you want more for you.

Speaker 1 (22:24):
In the honestly great then yeah, more for me in
the pantheon of unnecessary Wolverine stories that actually likes. I
put this right next to the Death of Wreene, which
is unnecessary, but I also liked it. All right, Jason,
what's your number four?

Speaker 3 (22:36):
Will this disappoint me?

Speaker 1 (22:38):
No?

Speaker 2 (22:38):
My number four is one that needs a guitar riff.
It's like, man, now, I'm not now. It is Enemy
of the State by Mark Miller with pencil by John
Rameda Junior in two thousand and eight. Basically, this is
the story that a lot of people called Wolverine versus
the Marvel Universe. It has a basically the opening story

(22:59):
is Logan dies mm hmm. He gets revived by the
Daredevil Ninja cult the Hand, and they send him out
to kill literally everybody in the Marvel universe. He fights Daredevil,
he fights Electra, he breaks into the Baxter Building. Now
it is crazy to me that in two thousand and eight,

(23:20):
up to this point nobody else had pitched what if
Wolverine broke into the Baxter Building. That shocks me. But
it's so cool. It's a really It kind of falls
apart towards the end when it gets more into the
occult Hand stuff. But like for the first six issues,
to me, it is relentless action story at a breakneck pace.

(23:40):
Every issue is Wolverine versus this person, Wolvering versus the
X Men, Wolvering versus Electra, Wolvern versus Daredevil, and it's
just popcorn movie drawn by one of the best artists
that have ever drawn comic books chat He draws a
hell of a Wolverine, And I just think sometimes it's

(24:03):
nice to be reminded that Wolverine is a killer, because
the arc of Wolverine is that he's from killer to hero.

Speaker 1 (24:10):
Right, That's what I do. When I do is some very.

Speaker 2 (24:11):
Nice, Yes exactly, and he's never been able to escape that.
So every once in a while it is nice to
get a story where you're like, oh, this is how
truly dangerous Wolverine is that he could literally fight the
entire Marvel universe and hold his own Like he trounces
the Fantastic Four, he trounces Daredevil very easily, and he

(24:36):
basically takes on the X Men. It's him versus twenty
five X Men, and he almost beats the entire team.
I think the only one he can't stop is Cyclops
or it's like it comes down to him in Cyclops
at the very end.

Speaker 3 (24:49):
Well, now we know all they have to do is
make out and it'd be no problem.

Speaker 2 (24:52):
Well well now we know that off panel that happened
somewhere yea, and that's what cured the brainwash.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
Marvel just put it on panel as oversay. Can I
add this? This is my number one? Whoa, Okay, this
is my number one?

Speaker 2 (25:04):
Come on in there.

Speaker 1 (25:05):
I just I just think this is like the best
version of the Wolverine story. I'm gonna bring up a
story a little bit later that I think lays out
what some of the key elements are in a Wolverine story.
I talked about it when I was talking about like
Laura Kinney's story, and this gives you amnesia, a redemption

(25:28):
arc and a lot of violence, which is all you
really need for Wolverine, and then like sometimes a girlfriend
who dies. And then Mark Miller is great at exploring characters.
He's dressing that up in creative fights, and he's great
at snappy dialogue. Like for years and years I've been like,
this is the like when we couldn't make a Wolverine movie,
I was like, it's enemy of the state. Make enemy

(25:50):
of the state. What is so hard about it? Make
the enemy of the state? Like a long long time
we said, make Superman birth right, what is so hard?
Makes Superman birth? Like? There are some and it's Disney
will never do it because Fox couldn't do it. So
Disney certainly.

Speaker 2 (26:02):
Well, I don't know, man, I'm going to tell you.
I think with the MCU is built out as it is,
this would be a very interesting way to introduce Wolverine.

Speaker 1 (26:11):
You think they're gonna go hard, This would have to
be hard.

Speaker 2 (26:14):
R No, no, no, you could do this pg. Thirty If
you read this story again, Ashley is a PG thirteen
story is not a hard art R. But there's blood
in it. But he doesn't actually stab any of the
Marvel heroes. Not one.

Speaker 3 (26:26):
No, that's true.

Speaker 1 (26:26):
But I mean if you're going to have him do like, well,
that's true.

Speaker 2 (26:29):
It doesn't happen till the end when he starts fighting
all the hand. Ind well, I was gonna say he
slaughters the hand. I mean, look, in any Wolverine story,
you have to accept, especially in comic books, that he's
not going to stab anybody because yeah, they're not going
to have that much blood in comic books out which
is weird, right, because claws are his main weapon. Sure,
swords on his hand are his main weapon. He never
stabs anybody. I think you could do this in the MCU,

(26:51):
and actually, to be honest, you this would be a
very interesting way if you didn't know who Wolverine was
before this, and that's an assassin base. But they're not
gonna make They wouldn't call this Wolverine enemy to state.
They would call this something else enemy to state.

Speaker 3 (27:06):
Yeah, yeah, x men anemey to state her or whatever.

Speaker 2 (27:08):
It would be something like it. I actually think this
would be a very interesting way to introduce him in
the MCU.

Speaker 1 (27:12):
I just think this book is, like, I think it's
super fun and like wolve.

Speaker 2 (27:15):
The arts astounding.

Speaker 1 (27:16):
Wolverine at the end of the day is as an
action hero. He's like James Bond, right, So part of
what you want is to see him beat the holy
living snot out of someone. And that's what I come
to a standalone Wolverine comic. I go to X Men
comics to see Wolverine get explored as a human being,
like in something like House of X and Powers of X.
I think like it is a huge step forward into
such a great service tip of him and Scott. But yeah,

(27:38):
so like when I worked in a comic bookstore and
people came in and said, I love Wolverine or I
loved Wolverine in the movies. This was the book that
I handed them, So just based on that, it had
to be like my number one because it's the easiest,
most accessible, and arguably coolest Wolverine story.

Speaker 2 (27:54):
Yeah, and there's not much to really say about it
because it's it's the plots are pretty straightforward. It's just
him fighting the Marvel universe.

Speaker 1 (28:00):
Yeah, and it was so successful that Marvel then put
out a book called Deadpool Kills the Marvel Universe.

Speaker 2 (28:05):
I tid the didn't they do like Enemy of State too?

Speaker 1 (28:07):
Yeah, there is an Enemy of State too. Yeah, there's
also well what if enemy of the State?

Speaker 2 (28:10):
Oh interesting?

Speaker 1 (28:11):
Yeah? Yeah, no, this is like old Man Logan, which
is not on my list, but also by Mark Miller.
They just kept milking this for all it was worth
because Mark Miller, shocking, the guy who created Kingsmen, understands
cool fights and hyper violence in the ultimately around a character. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. I've heard I've heard it described
by several people, you know, and I like Mark Miller. Yeah,
some people say that, you know, he's an acquired taste
for a lot of people because he's big mombackist, and
I've heard a lot of people describe him as the
Michael Bay of comic books, which I think is under
selling him, but I agree. I've heard it described that
a lot of people think his two best mainstream stories

(28:49):
are these the two Wolverine stories. That's like they're the
best thing he's ever done in the Marvel Universe in
terms of license comics. I definitely think I definitely think
there's an argument. I think that's a very VALI argument. Yeah,
for sure.

Speaker 1 (29:01):
I think it depends on how you feel about ultimates. Anyway,
we are we on number three.

Speaker 2 (29:06):
Number three. My number three, speaking of Mark Miller, is
from Ultimate X Men number forty one. It's new Mutant's
Part two is from two thousand and four. Is written
by Brian Michael Bendis and drawn by David Finch. It
is a one shot. Mark Miller had just left The
X Men and then they gave of course, gave the

(29:28):
title to Brian Michael Bendis, who was writing Ultimate Spider
Man at the time, and this story kind of comes
out of left field. It's a one shot story, and
basically it's a story that focuses only on Wolverine. Now
here's the funny. Here's the interesting thing about the story.
Wolverene is only in about maybe six to seven pages

(29:54):
of this issue.

Speaker 1 (29:55):
Interesting.

Speaker 2 (29:56):
So I'm gonna tell you a little bit of the story, okay,
and I'm basically just gonna spoil the whole thing for
you because it came out twenty years ago. Basically, the
story starts where a kid wakes up in his house.
His mom and dad aren't there. He finds clothes on
the floor, they're clothes, but they're not there. So he
walks to school and he's talking to his kids a class,

(30:18):
and then suddenly the kids a class start screaming and
then they disintegrate. So the kid freaks out. He doesn't
know what's going on. He walks into a cave and
he sits there, and he sits there for like a day,
and then here comes Wolverine walking into the cave with
a six pack and hands him a beer and he

(30:38):
starts talking to the kid, and you find out that
this kid is a brand new mutant and his power
is that he basically disintegrates organic matter. So he killed
everybody in his hometown and he's freaking out and he's
literally fourteen, but he can't kill Wolverine, and yes, and
he can't kill Wolverine. So like Wolverine's like drinking the beer,

(30:59):
and so Wolverine and this kid sort of have a
discussion about life, and the kid is like, I haven't
even kissed the girl and I haven't had sex, and yeah,
this is like rogue to the nth degree. Yes, And
Wolverine's like, yeah, that's going to happen, and the kid's like.
The kid's like what's going to happen? And Wolverine hands
him another beer and says, drink the beer and just goes, well,
nobody's ever going to find out that you killed that

(31:21):
kid or that town, because he's like, if you do,
that means it's over for all mutants, like they will
kill all of us. And the kid just goes so
I'm not getting out of this cave, am I And
Wolverine goes, drink your beer, and then the end of
the story is it's morning and we only see Wolverine

(31:42):
walk out of that cave, and that's the story, and
you find out that Nick Fury sent him there to
basically take care of this kid. It's I like Wolverine
stories where he's a loner. I like Wolverine stories where
he has to make the choice that nobody else can.
That's Wolverine to me. That's Logan to me that he

(32:04):
realizes that, like, yes, I have to make the tough choice.
I have to roll the hard six, I have to
kill this kid. And I just think, to be honest
with you this piece. Whatever you think about Brian Michael Bennison,
he is a great writer as well, but he fits
I think better with characters like Peter Parker. That's why
his Ultimate Spider Man run is so amazing. You know,
he doesn't really fit with characters like the X Men.

(32:26):
But it's so interesting to me that in like one issue,
and I think because he'd like sectioned Logan off by himself. Y, yeah,
really nailed Logan, Yeah, like to a degree. And I
think again, the idea of drink a beer is like
the best, Like, that's what Wolverine decided, Like, this's what
this kid is gonna get on his final night. You're
gonna get a six pack of beer and you're gonna

(32:47):
drink all six kids you're gonna get. I'm gonna make
you heroically drunk. Yeah, and then I'm gonna take care
of you. Yeah, and I'm gonna give But that's also
but also if you think about this story and sort
of a macro level, right, it's also part of the
what is the common theme Ashley that most Wolverine stories
has he has a young.

Speaker 1 (33:06):
Protege or person who needs care yet and this.

Speaker 2 (33:10):
Is sort of that story in a singular issue, you know,
And it's again and like we talk about Batman, it's
very interesting that they give the Harden I think it's
because it's a story of opposites, you know, like you
have the hardened character and you have the young character.
But that's what this is, and it's I think it's
a fantastic issue. And it might be even though Mark
Miller wrote some fantastic issues of Ultimate X Men. Ultimate

(33:33):
x Men number forty one might be the best issue
of the entire series. It almost in my opinion. Well,
there's a couple Ultimate Spider Man's that might come into this,
but this might be the best single issue of the
entire Ultimate Universe. Interesting. Interesting, that is my number three. Okay, Ashley,
what is your number two?

Speaker 1 (33:54):
Well? Can I do my number three first? Oh?

Speaker 2 (33:55):
Sorry, did I just give you a Yeah, we already
did your number one.

Speaker 1 (33:58):
That's way. My number three three is the og Wolverine
story Incredible Hulk number one eighty one from nineteen sixty two,
written by Icon Lenwen and art by Herb Trimpy. And
one of the reasons that I really wanted to talk
about this is because Wolverine is one of the few
comic book characters who comes out fully armed. So I

(34:20):
think because of his legacy with the X Men and
the way he's been utilized in a Postbendis era on
the Avengers. We forget that he's a villain for the
Incredible Hulk. You know literally nothing about him, go. He
just kind of shows up to like be a bad guy.
So he is designed to wield enough power in order

(34:44):
to be a credible threat to the Hulk. And yeah,
in this issue, like Jason mentioned to future Avengers teammates
fight the WND to go. The art is beautiful. It's
totally awesome. Herb Trimmy nails the design, like his design
for Wolverine here basically goes on to be the yellow
and blue suit. When your proportions on it kind of

(35:06):
change depending on who's drawing it. It's the same number
of claus. His speech pattern is imprinted by len Ween
And this it's funny because you've recommended like soft logan
stories and I've recommended Logan slaughters people's stories.

Speaker 2 (35:22):
Well, I guess yeah, because the first issue of Origin,
James literally kills his dad.

Speaker 1 (35:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, So I guess that's how we both
look at this character. But that is who he is
from Jump and you're gonna hear the year nineteen sixty
two and you're gonna be like, oh, like Silver Age,
it's really weird, and it is, but len Ween stories
are highly highly readable, and because this is basically a brawl,

(35:49):
I mean, check out one eighty if you want to
see the little Shadow cameo appearance.

Speaker 2 (35:52):
I guess, oh yeah, yeah. Because there's the big debate
about which issue is more of worth more like.

Speaker 1 (35:58):
That, cameo appearances don't count in my Mary Jane appearing
behind the lamp doesn't count.

Speaker 2 (36:03):
I kind of agree with that, But at the same time,
I for a long time owned the cameo appearance of Apocalypse,
and I was mad that that was in the first
appearance of a podcasting.

Speaker 1 (36:11):
Yea, yeah, genically, but I think you'd find this infinitely readable.
And if you're interested in why Wolverine is the way
he is, when you go and revisit this first story,
you really understand it. And then it makes all the
other stories that we've talked about better through this lens
so interesting. One big brawl, incredible Hulk one eighty one. Also,

(36:32):
if you don't know who the wend to Go is,
this is just like a really fun version of that character.
If you're not going to read Alpha Flight, that's right, Okay,
So now we're on number one. No, no, my number two.
You're number two, yes, and we don't know your number
two either. That's right.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
Yes. So is this a good.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
Point to mention the uh what we got going on
over the Patreon Ashley, we can I was going to
mention it when we had mister Ben person, but we
can do it right now. So we have a Patreon, Yeah,
Patreon dot com slash jawan where we do a bunch
of really fun extra content because if you can't tell,
Jason and I love talking about comic books. We love

(37:11):
the discussion, we love talking about it with you, and
we also love Ben Percy.

Speaker 3 (37:15):
And he agreed to stick around.

Speaker 2 (37:16):
Wh whoa, that's a little forward.

Speaker 1 (37:18):
I love you Ben Percy. Amazing. He's gonna stick around.
We're gonna do more chats with him about his career,
about comics, about his advice on being a creative and
a working creative in this space.

Speaker 2 (37:31):
We're basically gonna ask him how he writes Wolverine and
if you are interested in that process or you read
some of those books, I tell you these are my
favorite conversations because we're gonna talk about his career on
Green Arrow and everything like that we're gonna get inside
his brain because it's where the real juices that we have,
the real like creativity is inside. We're gonna crack him
over like a nut and be like, how did you

(37:51):
come up with green arrow? Good stuff? And he's gonna
conserve his sexy voice a very deep play anyways, So
go check that out patreon dot com slash job on
j A W I I in and throw some support
to the podcast. We do four extra podcasts a month,
and you're gonna want to check them all out. And
we think our super friends that helped support us over

(38:12):
there there you go.

Speaker 1 (38:13):
Okay, Jason, what's your number?

Speaker 2 (38:16):
Was when to go? Your number three? Or you number two?

Speaker 1 (38:18):
Three?

Speaker 2 (38:18):
That was your number three? I think we're off here, Ashley,
because I've already done my number three.

Speaker 1 (38:24):
Then what's your number two?

Speaker 2 (38:25):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (38:26):
Because because you switched the order after I jumped in
with my number one, and we've never recovered from it,
don't happen?

Speaker 2 (38:33):
Yeah, it's okay, astonishing Spider Man and Wolverine was my
number five. Enemy to State was my number four. Ultimate
X Men was my number three. Your number now my
number two? And we have not done your number two? No, Wow,
we're a good professional podcast crushing it and podcast has
been going for eight years now. Holy holy cow. My
number two is a story that I think is on

(38:56):
probably going to be on everybody's list. Well it's not
on your es actually, because Jordy said so. It's old
Man Logan, Mark Miller and Steve Mithan. It's eight issues
that also fun fact tie into Mark Miller's Fantastic four
run and Mark Miller's nineteen eighty five series in kind
of an interesting way. Basically, it's set in an alternate
future where super villains have finally won the day and

(39:19):
miss excuse me. Wolverine find himself tricked into killing his
X Men friends by Mysterio, and he is approached by
a blind Hawkeye with a Spidermobile to basically say hey,
I need to go pick up something. Please come as
my protection, and eventually it leads into a revenge quest
where Wolverine fights the Red Skull dressed as Captain America.

(39:44):
This is another one like Enemy the State, where Mark
Miller is kind of dipping his toes into all this stuff,
like there is a t Rex, there's a venom, there
is a t Rex size venom. There's a girl named
Ashley there is is that the Spider girl. Yeah, there's
a new Spider girl on there. You see the hanging
pin in this, you see all these other things. But
you have to throw this out there because Marvel took

(40:09):
this old man Blank and then ran it into the ground.
Because there's old Man Quill now, and then I think
there's old man Deadpool, and there's old man iron Man.
The like, there's a whole bunch of them now. But
to me, this is the only one that works. And
also you have to realize that one not only is
this based on Clint Eastwood's seminal Western movie Unforgiven. This

(40:32):
is so unforgiven. It hurts so unforgiven, it hurts. Yes,
callin the Wolverine story that is it will be the
Wolverine biography. But this is great. Like I think, I
think this story gets looked down on now, but I
think it gets looked down on because of all the
copies and pretenders. But when this came out, this grabbed everybody.

(40:57):
And here's the other interesting thing about this. This was
not a mini series. This was in the pages of Wolverine,
in the regular Wolverine title, which I remember at the time,
Mark Miller said that he specifically wanted to do He
did not want it to be a mini series, which
enemy to say as well was in the credit. But
also you have to give this for simply because the

(41:20):
Logan movie that Hugh Jackman in twentieth Century Fox were
so inspired by this story that they were like, this
is and remember for the years from this story came
out in I don't know the year it came out,
I would say, look like two thousand and eight would
be my guess, two thousand and nine, and Logan didn't
come out until like twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen.

(41:42):
In there for years people were saying, make this as
a movie, make thousand and eight. I was like, yeah,
there you go. So you have to realize the staying
power of how much this story like grabbed people even
though it is basically an Els World story. And yes
it does have some goofier elements.

Speaker 1 (42:01):
It's gross, it is, there are some really gross things
in this.

Speaker 2 (42:06):
But well, I think you can tell like this is
Mark Miller's Wanted period, which if you've ever read his
series Wanted, that is I would say like one of
his grossest stories, and this is around that exact same time.
I think if Mark Miller were to write this now,
it would be a completely different story, because he is
writing the book right now called King of Spies that
is sort of a version of this, but with James

(42:29):
Bond or a James Bond archetype, and it is very
it's just bloody, it's not gross. But it's also interesting too,
because again, the end of the story, without giving any
spoilers away, because I do think you should read it,
is it's basically Lone Wolf and Cub. It becomes Lone
Wolf and Cub and then and then old Man Logan
shows up in Fantastic four. I'm not kidding, he's actually

(42:52):
in that book. So yeah, I don't know. To me,
I couldn't make it number one, but I thought we
would be so remiss if we did not talk about
this story.

Speaker 1 (43:04):
I think that's fair, So I didn't put on my list.

Speaker 2 (43:07):
That's totally fine, Ashley. What is your number two?

Speaker 1 (43:10):
I guess my number two is a book that I
think probably is in the objective list the best Wolverine story,
but I just think because of its age, it's a
little bit less accessible than Enemy of the State. And
that's just the difference in the time period when it
was written. It is Wolverine from nineteen eighty two. It

(43:31):
is the Chris Claremont and Frank Miller series. You may
know this as Wolverine in Japan, which is the first
five issues of their run.

Speaker 2 (43:39):
It's the first Wolverine series of all time.

Speaker 1 (43:41):
Yeah, so, long time geek history lesson listeners know that
I tend to sing Chris Claremont praises and read Frank
Miller books and go. That was a book that I
understand why it was important, but I did not like it.
And when I revisited this because I read this a
long long time ago, opening page, the very first page

(44:01):
is like an ecu of Logan's face, and I was like,
that's the best thing Frank Miller's ever drawn. I understand it,
Like for me. I know, he's more known for some
of his things that he's penned as well, but like
Frank Miller was born to draw Wolverine. He draws the
hell out of Wolverine.

Speaker 2 (44:22):
Frank Miller is a good artist.

Speaker 1 (44:24):
Frank Miller is an artist whose style is not to
my taste generally, So I was really taken away that
it worked for me. Here I don't think he's untalented,
but like it, just what he does doesn't jam with
what my brain wants except here I thought. Revisiting it,
I was like, Wow, this is great. This is a
legendary series in the X Men Cannon. It introduces Logan's

(44:47):
time in Japan into continuity, and it marries Eastern and
Western traditions around heroism and martial arts and life and
death against like a backspray of sakura blossoms, and these
elements have never left Wolverine's cannon. We made one of
the X Men origins or one of the X Men

(45:07):
Wolverine movies basically tells a worst version of water down
version of this story, the one that I wanted to
leave any won't let me leave the Wolverine.

Speaker 3 (45:17):
We might have reviewed it on this podcast. I don't remember.

Speaker 2 (45:19):
I don't think so.

Speaker 1 (45:20):
But structurally, the series is a samurai story. So if
you're familiar with like samurai ronin tropes, like myself, when
you read this collection, you'll be like, hey, I know
what's happening.

Speaker 3 (45:32):
How cool.

Speaker 1 (45:33):
Oh, now he's going to have a new girlfriend and
now the redemption okay, great. But if you are not
as familiar with it, it will be unlike any Wolverine
story you've ever read before. I can understand how in
nineteen eighty two this blue people's head's open and like
how impactful. WO.

Speaker 2 (45:48):
I could be wrong on this, but I believe it's
one of the very first Marvel limited series or mini series. Now,
I know those are common now, but I think at
the time it was one of the first ones ever.
If not the first one, I.

Speaker 1 (45:59):
Don't know if it's the first one, it's certainly one
of the first ones. And Clairemont is usually if you
do go all the way back and listen to our
X Men Days of Future Past episode that's also written
by Chris Claremont, and we read Days of Future Past
and sometimes Clairemont in X Men is super super wordy,
But in Wolverine, I think because he's writing in Wolverine's

(46:23):
voice as the narrator, there's not a ton of words
on the page, and so you can read these collections
even though this is like Hella Bronze Age, really quickly.
They read like modern comics. It's really only the coloring
that gives us away as being from this time.

Speaker 2 (46:36):
I will tell you as well, just to let you
know everybody that that you said was eighty two eighty two,
the regular ongoing Wolverine book, the one that followed us,
because I know this has never been out of print. No, no,
well they've they've canceled then brought it back. But yes,
didn't start till nineteen eighty eight. There you go, So
it took him that long, even though I know, and

(46:56):
I remember saying that reading that that Wolverine mini series
just talked about was like was sold like crazy.

Speaker 1 (47:03):
Yeah, there's a reason that it's never gone out of print.
It's never gone out. You can still get They make
really beautiful collections of this. I have a great one
to go, and I recommended reading. But I had this
lower on my list initially because I knew that the
Japan story was going to make it in here somewhere,
and then rereading it in preparation for the lesson, I
was like, no, it deserves to be closer to the top.
And having just read Peacemaker from this same time period,

(47:25):
from actually later in the eighties, that has really unfortunate
treatment of Asian characters. I'm not super saying that Chris
Claremont has the best treatment of Asian characters by a
white writer, but nobody's colored orange and nobody is speaking
in pig English. So I really think that for the
time this was it was a very smart decision and

(47:45):
it was very well researched, and you can tell that
it was made with a love for the character and
a love.

Speaker 3 (47:50):
For the situation that they put him in.

Speaker 1 (47:51):
So if you've never checked out this original mini series,
it's like the first collection is five issues. It's not
long at all. I think if you like Wolverine or
even tension interested in him, you owe it to yourself
to check it out. So that's my number two. You
already know my number one. It's Enemy of the State. Jason.
What is your number one best Wolverine story?

Speaker 2 (48:10):
Okay, so the Chris Clairmont Frank Miller Wolverine or it
would be in my honorable mentions. That's fair, totally fair,
because I do what you just said, like, I think
it's a little too dated.

Speaker 1 (48:23):
Now.

Speaker 2 (48:23):
I do respect the game, yep, and I do think
it's very readable. Now, my number one Wolverine story is
a Wolverine story that I don't think a lot of
people have ever read. It is called Wolverine Colin Logan
by Brian ca vaugh with art by Edward Rizzo. It
was published in I believe, two thousand and six. My

(48:48):
favorite Wolverine stories are the Wolverine stories where he is
are ronan.

Speaker 3 (48:51):
Yes, where he's taking off of his tradition, where.

Speaker 2 (48:54):
He is by himself kind of wandering around. And I
do have a fondness for I want Wolverine in two places.
I want Wolverine in Canada or I want Wolverine in
Japan from two thousand and eight. I just doesn't know, okay,
But this was a series that was written post House
of M and House of M of course was an

(49:14):
alternate reality tale, and in that story, Wolverine got all
of his memories back because of the thing. So this
led to him going to some old A lot of
stories that were done very well and a lot of
stories that were done very bad. This is one of
those that were done where very well because this is
Logan returning to Japan to settle an all score and

(49:37):
he returns to Hiroshima. This Ashley is the story that
the Wolverine took for its opening credits.

Speaker 1 (49:48):
Yep, this is, by the way, great opening sequence in
that movie.

Speaker 2 (49:51):
This is a short and so yes, he returns to
Hiroshima and he is intact by an inhuman burning man
in the present day and this sis I'm flashing back
to World War Two where he was imprisoned by the
Japanese and he met an American soldier, a very racist
American soldier named Lieutenant Warren. Through that they plot a

(50:14):
desperate escape. Along the escape, he meets a woman called Atsuko.
I may be saying that wrong, and t Suko, and
then he falls in love with her. And then during
the course of the story, they look up in the
sky and they see the bomb and then their story

(50:36):
goes from there. It is very much a story about
anger and peace where and weirdly, I will tell you
Wolverine is the peace analog in the story. He's not.

Speaker 1 (50:50):
That's a fun flipping of this. Having you talk about this,
I'm like, I got to read this tonight.

Speaker 2 (50:56):
Actually is I will tell you that it is on
my comic Solargy fantastic. I made sure that I reread
it last night because I wanted to have it very fresh.
The art by uh Ed Edward Arizzo is fantastic. It's
really good. It has you've I can tell you've seen
the cover everybody. It's the cover where you know, there's

(51:16):
one of those prisoner holes that you'll see like in
war camps and wol you can see that there are
feet on top of the hole and Wolverine has crouched
over and he's sort of through shadow, but you can
see his eyes, his teeth and his claws and he's
looking right at camera. And then the title just is
logan over it. It's a very soft, a very quiet,
a very simple story, and that's why it feels like

(51:38):
a Western which.

Speaker 1 (51:39):
I also think which also sometimes borrows from the great
tradition of Ronin in samurai story Yes, which which I
also think make for great Wolverine stories. So Wolverine Logan,
if you haven't read it, that is my number one.
What a great suggestion. Yes, and again it doesn't get
the dow that it deserves. I think it is the
best Wolverine ser I wonder if it's very well all

(52:00):
know this way I do the recommend reading. I wonder
if it's not in print or if it had maybe
a similar print rent Like I.

Speaker 2 (52:05):
Said, you can find it on a comicsology. That's where
I found it.

Speaker 1 (52:07):
Well, if we can't, that's the great thing. About living
when we do is if we can't. So those are
our lists.

Speaker 2 (52:13):
It's only six bucks on Comicxology. Every baby we'll go in.

Speaker 1 (52:15):
The recommended reading is obviously going to be everything on
our lists, including Ben's book, plus Ben's Wolverine work. But
the great thing is with Comicxology. Now, if we can't,
I like to recommend physical copies for people. But if
we can't get physical copies, there's always a Comicxology link
to we had, even if it's just a single issues,
even if it's not a collection. That's like a really
fabulous thing. So now that we've done a record, oh.

Speaker 2 (52:38):
What we should say? Everybody, you recommend Renie. If you
want to see you want to get links to all
these choices, especially Wolverine Logan, go to geek history lesson
dot com slash recommend reading. There you go the full
list of every episode we've heard done.

Speaker 1 (52:49):
That's true, it's all on there. And now our discussion.

Speaker 2 (52:54):
All right, everybody, we have a very special guest. He
is the author of Ninth Medal, The Unfamiliar, Your Garden,
and the writer of comics such as Wolverine, the Upcoming Ghostwriter.
He's also a screenwriter of a film that just premiered
at Sundance Summarene and of course the reason we brought
him on the podcast, the upcoming event Ten Lives and

(53:14):
ex Death of Wolverine. Please welcome to the podcast, returning
Gekashisten guest Ben Percy. Ben, thanks for joining us today.

Speaker 4 (53:21):
Hey, thanks so much for having me back on.

Speaker 2 (53:24):
It's so good to hear that deep For any smooth
whiskey voice.

Speaker 3 (53:28):
Or anyone who hasn't listened before, we did tell them
you would have the best voice in podcasting.

Speaker 4 (53:33):
Everybody turned down or up your support for right now.

Speaker 2 (53:40):
Since Ben, we're also talking about, you know, the theme
of the day, Wolverine, and you've been writing Wolverine for
it has been two years yet.

Speaker 4 (53:49):
Well, I mean you can do we count the ply
Starch schedule a little bit if you count the podcast.
So I started off writing you know, Wolverine The Long
Night the audio there was ten episodes. That was followed
up by Wolverine The Lost Trail, and then in the
midst of all that, I started writing X Force, which is,
you know, a Wolverine led series, and then that led

(54:11):
to the mainline comic Wolverine. So it's probably been more
like four years.

Speaker 2 (54:17):
Wow, that's a long Wolverine run. It's a long hard winter.
If someone would say, we want to ask you, since
this is an episode about Wolverine stories, for you, what
have been some touchstone Wolverine stories that you like to
reference or you always come back to when you're focusing
on the character of Logan.

Speaker 1 (54:35):
Sure.

Speaker 4 (54:35):
Well, and I think I've said this before, probably on
this podcast, that Wolverine is my favorite character in comics.
So to be writing him is cheesy as it sounds
a childhood dream come true and funny enough. I jumped
into Wolverine at a strange time. I was reading and
collecting the mainline series when he was Patch, so I

(55:01):
was very confused. I was like, wait, this guy is Wolverine,
but he's also Patch and he's also Logan.

Speaker 2 (55:09):
So when he got rid of the eyepatch, you got angry.

Speaker 4 (55:13):
And he's wearing an eyepatch, but he can see because
he has and he has healing factor. But why is
he wearing a black singlet? And so I was really
confused and chanted at the same time because the character
just spoke to me and and from there I started,
you know, going through bins and finding old issues, and

(55:35):
you know, I was already familiar with the character from
britting an X membit. You know, it probably was more
in high school than I began to sort of concentrate
on understanding his you know, his cannon. And for me,
you know, of course, the signature series are like the
Claremont Miller and BWS really but also you know, Larry

(55:58):
Hama and Silvestri. Those are probably my favorite classic runs.
And you know, what Jason Aaron did was really fantastic.
I think he wrote probably my favorite Wolverine issue of
all time, which is The Man in the Pit or
The Man and the Whole The Man in the Pit.

Speaker 2 (56:16):
I think it's the Man in the Pit.

Speaker 1 (56:18):
I'll google it.

Speaker 4 (56:21):
And yeah, those are really my touchstones when I think
back on like what stories just continue to to you know,
slash and hack their way through my brain?

Speaker 3 (56:34):
Well, you were both corrected, is the Man in the Pit?

Speaker 1 (56:37):
And since Ben you were talking about sort of what
hacks and slashes its way through your brain? I think
that's an interesting turning point to say, what are essential
elements in a successful Wolverine story in your opinion? Because
I think hacking and slashing through brains must be.

Speaker 4 (56:54):
That of course, is an essential part of the character
that he has these primal urges. He has this you know,
perserker quality that takes him over sometime, and we can
all relate to that, not in an aspirational way, but
in a relatable way. Right. That's why the tail of
the werewolf or the tail of Jeckyll and Hide is

(57:16):
one everybody can you know, connect to. But it's, you know,
there's a reason that people want to be vampires and
they're scared of becoming werewolves or even find werewolves somewhat distasteful.
It's because you know, we know that we're all hairy
on the inside, when we have too much to drink,

(57:38):
when we're exhausted, when we're we're pushed to the brink
because of rage or or or whatever circumstance or whatever else. Right,
there's a cage that that that rattles, There's there's a
lock that comes undone and something snarling, you know, just

(57:59):
to blodes out of us. And that is an essential
part of Wolverine. But he has this history of violence
that I think everybody finds especially appealing because he has
been used continuously as a weapon by others. Right, he
whether it's with TMX as weapon X. You know, the

(58:23):
mind wipes, the mind plants have resulted in him being
an instrument of mayhem that serves oftentimes shadowy government ops.
And he's filled a reservoir with blood, and that haunts him.

(58:47):
If you think of him as sort of equivalent to
Clint Eastwood in Unforgiven, you're speaking.

Speaker 3 (58:53):
Jason's language right now, evoking Westerns.

Speaker 2 (58:56):
Yeah, Unforgetting as one of the best westerns. And that's
very much Logan.

Speaker 4 (59:00):
And that was, you know, a really important story to
me when writing Wolverine The Long Night, in that you
find Logan in Alaska sort of hold up and trying
to escape humanity. You know, if you think about Alaska
as the last frontier, that's that's their motto. It's it's

(59:23):
the edge of the map. It's the place where people
go to to run away from the law, from marriages,
from themselves, from the government, whatever. It's where people go
off the grid. So I said it there. But of course,
like Clint Eastwood, you know, he gets drawn back into
the fray. And and this is another signature element of

(59:48):
Logan's character. Not only is he haunted by his past,
but he's motivated to atone for it, you know. He
he especially, you know, sort of feel sympathy for, empathy
for vulnerable populations, and complete distaste for the powerful on

(01:00:10):
how they might you know, damage or take advantage of others.
So he comes out swinging in defense of others, you know,
as a form of compensation for what he's done.

Speaker 2 (01:00:24):
So let's talk about Ten Lives and ex Deaths of Wolverine,
your big event that's coming out. And at the time listeners,
Ten Lives has already been hitting comic book stores and
X Death will be hitting stores the week of this episode,
So we're not going to go too deep into spoilers
because we haven't read it at the time of this recording.
But Ben, when you're coming up with this Wolverine event,

(01:00:47):
is this something that spun out of the current X
Men continuity or did you kind of have this story
before you got in the book and you were just
waiting for the right chance to tell the story. And
then I want to ask with that, but when you're
telling this big Wolverine event, how hard is it to
tell a story about Wolverine that hasn't already been told

(01:01:09):
about him? Because he's basically had a solo series for
thirty years now.

Speaker 4 (01:01:17):
So if you look at the first page of my run,
you can see that this event was set up there
nice the first I don't have it in front of me,
but the first few lines are.

Speaker 1 (01:01:32):
Something like, I actually have it on my tablet. There
you go, Let's see how well Ben Percy can remember it.

Speaker 4 (01:01:39):
Yeah, or maybe Ashley should just do it her best
impression right now.

Speaker 2 (01:01:46):
That would be I'd be down for Ashley's Wolverine impression
right now, my Wolverine impression of my Ben Percy impression,
because those are I think they're one of the same.

Speaker 1 (01:01:54):
I'm like, what's going to embarrass me less? Okay, I'll
leave it to the listeners aside. This is the whole
first page.

Speaker 5 (01:02:03):
Somewhere in Alaska, James Logan patch patches mentioned Weapon X, Wolverine, Canada, Madrepour,
New York, Japan, kracoa name, scramble, times get slippery. My
brain feels bruised black. I don't know when, where, or
even who I am. I mean, that's true, you're not lying.

(01:02:27):
It's right here.

Speaker 4 (01:02:31):
Excellent. I thought I was listening to myself for a
second there.

Speaker 1 (01:02:36):
Oh, thank you, thank you.

Speaker 4 (01:02:41):
You know the idea of this fragmented life, this mosaic life,
the shattered pieces of which come together. He's had so
many identities, he's lived in so many different places. And
as a result of that, right, if you don't know
your history, you don't necess he really know who you are. Fully,

(01:03:02):
and this event, in response to your second question, Jason,
you know it it leans into what comics do. Comics
are all about this, this cycle, right, and oftentimes this

(01:03:22):
cycle is defined by nostalgia. You know, Okay, here comes
Sabertooth again, and here comes Red Skull again, and here
comes Doom again, right, and and people get excited, They're like, oh, yes,
I'm going to you know, check out this run of
Eternals or cap or whatever else because there's this feeling

(01:03:42):
of familiarity. And I'm leading into that by supplying what
I guess you'd call the greatest Wolverine story of all time.
And when I say that, I'm actually tipping my hat
to all the creators who came before me. I'm not

(01:04:06):
trying to herald myself. Instead, I'm saying, I'm writing a
story the Channel's legacy. I'm writing a story that will
pay direct homage to you know, some Hama Silvestri, some
Claremont Miller, some some BWS and and yes, you're going

(01:04:27):
to find yourself in the weaponex Lab during this. Yes,
you're going to find yourself in Japan, You're going to
find yourself in the Old West. You're going to find
yourself in all of these time shredding scenarios because Wolverine
has to save the past in order to protect the future.

(01:04:51):
This spans, you know, centuries of time and it goes
into also future s scenarios that you witnessed in hawks Pox.
So we're going to be dancing through the rain drops
of Wolverine's history. We're going to be telling some stories
around the edges of other stories already told, and everything

(01:05:16):
is at stake in this moment, sort of like the
whole Wolverine canon is at stake if he can't keep
ahead of the timeline threat. So in a way, this
is like my my love story to the character and
to everybody who has been a custodian of the character

(01:05:37):
in the past.

Speaker 2 (01:05:38):
You mentioned some ideas of even future storylines from hawks Pox,
and I want to you know, I know we said
no spoilers at the beginning of this but I'm gonna
spoil it. No, no, no, no no, I'm going to say, Ben,
I'm going to ask you a question and answer however
you may, or however the Marvel lawyers will allow you

(01:05:59):
to answer.

Speaker 1 (01:06:02):
Will we be seeing some old man logan in this storyline?

Speaker 4 (01:06:09):
You are going to see a delineation of story that
works like so, the Ten Lives of Wolverine issues deal
with a threat, a time shredding threat that will take
you throughout Wolverine's history. The X Deaths of Wolverine stories

(01:06:33):
have to deal with a threat from the future. And
right now, it's already been revealed that this character who
you've seen on the cover the Adam Kubert cover of
X Tests issue number one, this character is known as

(01:06:57):
Omega Wolverine. A lot of very spoilery things surrounding him.
Ah and what follows. But I'm excited about the way
that these stories, which at first seemed divergent, will ultimately culminate,

(01:07:18):
will crescendo together.

Speaker 1 (01:07:21):
So because you evoked House of X and Powers of X,
I have to ask what it was like collaborating with
Jonathan Hickman on X Men and on Wolverine.

Speaker 4 (01:07:32):
It was great Hickman.

Speaker 1 (01:07:35):
You nice ben say something mean.

Speaker 4 (01:07:40):
I will say that Jonathan Hickman is sort of delightfully evil.

Speaker 1 (01:07:44):
Oh I like that.

Speaker 4 (01:07:46):
Now. He you know, he reached out to me and said, hey, man,
I think you really killed on Explores.

Speaker 1 (01:07:54):
That is a pretty solid Jonathan Hickman. That's the best
thing ever.

Speaker 3 (01:08:00):
I bought that on my Phone's so great.

Speaker 1 (01:08:05):
It turns out he was right too. Well.

Speaker 4 (01:08:07):
I just took it as you know, literal advice, like, oh,
he wants me to kill it on X Force. Really
it's the murder book.

Speaker 2 (01:08:15):
Well, and I think I believe and this is not
really well spoilers for I think you're almost twenty issues in, Like, yeah,
Professor X dies in the first issue.

Speaker 4 (01:08:24):
With that book. Yeah, I don't even know what issue
just came out. I mean, I'm on like issue number
thirty one right now.

Speaker 2 (01:08:31):
I'm just assuming you're pushing like issue two hundred of
Wolverine already, that you're that far ahead.

Speaker 4 (01:08:36):
I am pretty far ahead. And you know that the
ten Lives x Dess event is really a synthesis of
what's been happening in both series in X Force and
h Wolverine. The threats all and Twine there.

Speaker 2 (01:08:50):
Can we get into some really really quickly nitty gritty.
Can you tell me when when did you actually start
scripting ten Lives in Next Deess of Wolverine?

Speaker 4 (01:08:59):
Do you remember, well in my initial bible that got
made the job, I mentioned it there. So it's been
a glimmer in my eye for some time. And I've
talked it over with Josh Kussar, I've talked it over
with Hickman, I talked it over with Jordan White, I

(01:09:21):
talked it over with Mark Passo, and you know, it
went through then the corporate thresher, and I mean it's
been in development for years. When I started scripting exactly,
I'm not positive, probably a year ago.

Speaker 1 (01:09:36):
I mean, you don't just get to call the Marvel
head office and say I have a great idea for
Wolverine and then you write it the next day. That's
not how it goes.

Speaker 4 (01:09:43):
Not how it goes. I'm just you know, this is
my first big event that I've done on my own.
I've been part of other events, but it's never all
been on me from a writing perspective. The artist obviously
put in god knows how many hours, and you know
put you know, elevate everything, all the all the crappy
dialogue and and and clumsy language that I might put

(01:10:06):
on the page, like Kisara and uh and Federico, like
they are just at beyond a level in this. It's
the best work I know that Josh has ever done.
And anyways, uh, you know Hickman, you know, he's always
been just sort of like, to circle back to that question, uh,

(01:10:29):
he's always just been sort of an advisor, like he
never he's never like a boss. So it was just like, well,
what if we do this or actually he doesn't say
like that.

Speaker 1 (01:10:37):
This is what.

Speaker 4 (01:10:38):
Hickman always does. He goes, here's the bad idea, But
what he actually means when he says here's the bad
idea is you should do this or you're dumb.

Speaker 2 (01:10:51):
So interesting, That's what I've heard. I've heard that statement
in a lot of different writers rooms where people will say, well,
here's the bad pitch, and what they secretly mean is, Okay,
we're now going to spend the rest of the day
figuring out how do we do the bad pitch and
make it work?

Speaker 4 (01:11:04):
Yep. So yeah, so anyways, yeah, it was it was
a great experience of working with them, and he just
you know, he was never he was never doing anything
except sort of acting as a gardener, like he built
Krakoa with hawks box and then he's like, Okay, you

(01:11:25):
take these forty acres, You take these forty acres. You
take these forty acres to all of us and see
what you can grow. So that was fun.

Speaker 2 (01:11:36):
Well, Ben, you have written Wolverine and a couple of
different mediums, according podcasts and you know, of course with comics,
and they're both great runs. And I want to ask you,
what would you say to somebody who asked you what
is the difference between writing logan for a podcast and
writing logan for a comic book.

Speaker 4 (01:11:58):
Will When I first set off to write The Long Night,
I felt like Wolverine had been in the spotlight and
a bit too much. He's becoming warmon Cudley in a way.
And I'm talking about the movies as well as the comics.
And what I wanted people to do is feel afraid
of Wolverine again, because he's a scary dude, and I

(01:12:22):
wanted him to become mysterious again. So I relegated him
mostly to the shadows.

Speaker 2 (01:12:27):
If you.

Speaker 4 (01:12:30):
Actually account for the number of minutes that Wolverine, played
by Richard Armitage, is recorded and actually appears in that series.
Pretty small. It's mostly people hunting Logan and talking about Logan,
and sometimes there are misconceptions of him. You know, he's

(01:12:50):
a suspect in this murder case, and I was trying
to sort of do the Jaws thing, like keep the
shark under the water so that he's a dorsal fin
so there's a shadowy surge of water as long as possible,
and build up his off stage mythology. So that was
the initial intent there, which is completely different than the

(01:13:13):
way you can get away with in a Marvel comic,
where you know you'll get the editorial note immediately like
there's not enough you know, of Wolverine being awesome in
this issue, or Wolverine needs to be bigger on the cover,
you know, like that's a recent note that we got.

Speaker 1 (01:13:31):
That feels like a real note to me, the way
that you said that, it really.

Speaker 2 (01:13:35):
Is a lot of Wolverine was bigger oncover.

Speaker 4 (01:13:38):
Sorry, that's not a Hickman note, that's a that's a
corporate note where yeah, for sure, you know, Adam Cubert
has this incredible cover. I think it's for Wolverine nineteen.
Maybe it came out in December, and it's kind of
like this old woodcut looking thing of an island, and
the island turns out to be if you look beneath

(01:13:59):
the water this month, and Wolverine is swimming towards it
and he's really tiny. And it took a lot of
convincing for that cover to run, and it's it might
be my favorite cover.

Speaker 2 (01:14:09):
It's a great cover. I don't while you were talking here, but.

Speaker 4 (01:14:12):
This is the kind of notes you get from up top,
you know, like make make the hero do something awesome
and make him giant on the cover. So anyways, you know,
when I'm writing the comic, Wolverine has to be the
best there is and what he does, and sometimes, you know,

(01:14:34):
you get to know, like, Okay, Wolverine gets his ass
handed to him here, We're not sure about that. Why
do you want to do that? Maybe we should have
him do something awesome instead. And I'm like, well, you know,
I'll fight back against that kind of stuff. But but
you know, there's definitely like a sort of decree that
you get as to how the characters should be spotlighted

(01:14:57):
that didn't apply to the podcast stuff. So it's able
to be maybe a little bit riskier there. And I
really do think of the podcast as kind of a
prelude or prologue to my run in the comics.

Speaker 2 (01:15:08):
That's awesome. Well, final question here before we talk about
some of the other work here all this big event.
Every cover I've seen for ten Lives and ex Dess
of Wolverine has a million versions of Wolverine on the covers,
excluding Patch. What is your favorite Wolverine look or costume?

Speaker 4 (01:15:32):
I will say there is some Patch stuff that gets
touched one, but I mean the iconic image is you know,
the Berry windsor Smith weapon X. These strange things dangling
off of them are completely ridiculous, but it's amazing and

(01:15:56):
it captures like that synergy of savagery and and tech
and you know, somebody who has lost his mind and
is being puppeted by others.

Speaker 2 (01:16:08):
It's great.

Speaker 1 (01:16:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:16:08):
And that cover, of course, is is just iconic. It's amazing.
All right, listeners, Well, we want to tell you a
really quick touch on some of Ben's other work right now.
If you are not reading the comic excuse me, the
Comic Cycle trilogy, you're missing out the second book, the
Unfamiliar Garden just came out. I've read the ninth medal

(01:16:29):
last year. It was fantastic, ben, so I highly highly
recommend it. Is there anything you would like to tell
our listeners about The Unfamiliar Garden, which is available right
now on Amazon.

Speaker 4 (01:16:40):
Yeah, I mean just to give you sort of like
a dueling elevator pitch one for the comic cycle on
one for the Unfamiliar Garden, like the when I wrote
the comic cycle. When I pitched the comic cycle, one
of the things I wanted to do was build my
own shared universe. After having been a reader of comics
my whole life, after having written for comics DC or
MAR since twenty fourteen, I wanted, you know, my own sandbox.

(01:17:05):
I guess so. The trigger for the Shared Universe is
an age old sci fi concept. A comment comes streaking
through the Solar System, the planet spins through the debris field,
and in the meteor shower that follows, new elements are
introduced to the world. And these up end the laws
of physics and geology and biology, and they create chaos

(01:17:29):
and the geopolitical theater, and they shake up the weapons
sector and the energy sector, and in a very marvel
sort of way. They create a new dawn of heroes
and villains. So you know every book in the Commic cycle,
and these are standalone novels, you know, in the same
way that you can like read wonder Woman and then

(01:17:51):
read Superman and then read Batman, and they're all part
of the same universe, and they push up against each other,
and you have a more holistic vision of the shared
universe if you're reading all of them. But you can
just read the individual titles in the same way. All
the books in the comment cycle take place at the
exact same time, at different in different parts of the world,
so you can read book two, The Unfamiliar Garden before

(01:18:12):
you read book one. The Unfamiliar Garden takes place in
the Pacific Northwest, Seattle, Puget Sound, the Olympics in particular,
and it has to do with alien plant growth. So
the story kicks off with a vanishing. There's a girl
who vanishes, and she is the daughter of a couple

(01:18:36):
and their marriage is already in a rocky sort of place. Now.
The husband is a mycologist. He works for the University
of Washington as a professor, and he is investigating five
years later, after they've divorced five years after his daughter disappeared,
he's investigating this new plant life, new fungal life that's growing.

(01:18:58):
And then the wife is a detective with the Seattle
PD and she is investigating a series of ritualistic murders,
and their paths converge again. They're brought together professionally before
they're brought again emotionally. And there also is the possibility
that springs up that their daughter might still be alive.

(01:19:20):
So it's very much a family story with all these
wild sci fi shenanigans going on around the margins of it.

Speaker 2 (01:19:26):
That's the thing that I really liked about the first
book is that it does feel like one of these
kind of like a Marvel movie, that there is this
big event that happens, but the big event doesn't take
the foreground. It's more about how the characters are reacting
to the big event, and so it really I thought
grounded it in a really excellent way. And by the way, listeners,

(01:19:48):
if you haven't seen the covers of these books, they
are fanned. They have like probably the best covers of
any prose books I've ever seen, Like these amazing colors,
these amazing shapes. They're very eye catching, but it'll.

Speaker 1 (01:20:00):
Look really good next to all of your Ben Percy comics.

Speaker 2 (01:20:03):
There you go, And we'd be remiss if we didn't
also talk about Man, You're you're not only are you
changing everything Wolverine, you're writing some fantastic novels. You're taking
on ghost Writer. You have a film that just premiered. Correct.

Speaker 4 (01:20:20):
Yeah, talks about summary the Sundance Film Festival. Sadly but understandably,
it got canceled for as an in person event, but
it's happening virtually, so yeah, the virtual premiere Sundance premiere
of Summarine will take place very soon after this podcast

(01:20:40):
has actually aired. And it is a story that I
co wrote with James Ponsel, the director, and in a
way it's it's it's revisionary. You know. I was very
excited to show my daughter all of these movies and

(01:21:02):
share all these books that it influenced me as a kid.
But when I sat down and read her The Hobbit,
she said, you know, this is cool, Dad, but where
are the girls? And I returned to the book and
recognized my blind spots and investigated further. I figured out
the Hobbit actually only has one female pronoun in it,

(01:21:22):
and then you know, there was a similar response to
Stand By Me and to The Goodies and to other
stories that are considered universal but actually, you know, just
focus on dudes. And so I wanted to write a
universal coming of age story that sort of battled back

(01:21:45):
against that. So Summarine is a story that takes place
in the last weekend of summer, and it follows four girls,
and in the opening minutes they discover a dead body,
and that dead body is actually pretty much the only

(01:22:07):
guy in the whole film, because I referred to it
as revisionary, right, And we have moments that feel like Psycho,
We have moments that feel like an episode of CSI.
We have moments that feel like a Halloween movie. We

(01:22:27):
have these moments that are sort of playing around with
and reinventing the way in which women who are oftentimes
you know, in these stories victimized and present mostly to
help a man go on a journey and discover something
about themselves. We're sort of taking these moments and giving

(01:22:49):
them a twist and seeing them through a new lens.
And we hope that the story is you know, one
that sweeps people away, that has universal qualities and that
and that scares you. Scares you because it's you know,
it's a story about growing up. And if you think
about how typically high school is the province of the
horror film, middle school, to me anyway, was a lot scarier.

(01:23:13):
Middle school was when you know, your safe little cocoon
quickly comes unraveled and strange things are happening to people's
bodies and hormones and friendships are fracturing, and you know,
you you really suddenly don't know who you are as

(01:23:34):
you work your way through a maze of fluorescent lit
hallways and become one more anonymous name on a roster,
on a series of interchangeable classrooms. So we wanted to
tap into some of those anxieties. And also, you know,
in a way, it feels like a pandemic movie and
that kids have had to grow up really fast and

(01:23:58):
at the same time they're kind of stuck. They're in
this weird transitory phase. And that's what the movie really
digs its fingers into. It's about, you know, figuring out death,
It's about figuring out how to grow up. It's about
some of the harsh trews that come out as a
summer thematically moves into the raw of fall.

Speaker 2 (01:24:20):
And do you know at this point if it is
going to hit anywhere streaming or be available after Sundance?

Speaker 4 (01:24:28):
Yeah, so we already sold it in and Sony, you know,
are the the producers on it. So it will We
don't know exactly where it will be streaming. We know
it'll a few more film festivals throughout the spring, and
then it'll have a theatrical release in the summer.

Speaker 2 (01:24:46):
Oh nice, that's really good, fantastic all right, So look
forward to Instagram pictures of Ben person and a tucks
on a red carpet very soon. Yeah, really, that's so awesome.

Speaker 4 (01:24:56):
Buffalo plaid.

Speaker 1 (01:24:58):
Oh honestly though, that would be very all right.

Speaker 2 (01:25:01):
Well, listeners, we're gonna have a little bit more with
Ben on our Patreon over at patreon dot com. Slash
John when asking him about his writing process. But Ben
x Lives of Wolverine and the ten excuse me, Lis,
Wolverine and the ex desci Woverene is out in comic
bookshops right now. Is there anything else that you would
like listeners to check out besides the awesome books and

(01:25:24):
the awesome films that we just mentioned.

Speaker 4 (01:25:27):
You know, I always appreciate when the comics readers go
over and check out my pros. That means a lot.
So yeah, if anybody picks up the Unfamiliar Garden, that
would mean.

Speaker 1 (01:25:35):
The world and then tweet it Ben and tell them
that we sent you.

Speaker 2 (01:25:38):
Yeah, please do Here you go, Ben, keep on writing.
Thank you so much for coming back to geek history
lesson enjoining us today. It was fantastic, thanks to you
and all those listeners out there. Well there you have it, folks,
straight from the mouth of the Wolverine writer himself, Ben
percy Man. What a conversation. Thanks for joining us on
the episode. Ben, and you can hear more of Ben.
Like we said over at patreon dot com, lash John

(01:26:00):
on j A w I I in. I guarantee you
we're going to talk to him about his Green Arrow
running because I also think that's fantastic.

Speaker 1 (01:26:06):
Well, I mean, also, how do you not just want
more of that voice in your life? Yeah, he had
a career in radio.

Speaker 2 (01:26:12):
I'm actually it's funny, like I remember when he first
got the Wolverine podcast. I think I sent him a
message being like, are you narrating.

Speaker 3 (01:26:19):
This the Wolverine Podcast by the way.

Speaker 2 (01:26:23):
It's really good.

Speaker 1 (01:26:23):
It's now publicly, but it used to be harder to get.

Speaker 3 (01:26:27):
It is very good. It's really good, very very good.

Speaker 2 (01:26:30):
But thanks Ben. We're so happy to have him return
and hopefully in a couple of years, and we'll just
have you back for whatever else you're writing.

Speaker 1 (01:26:34):
There there you go check out all his books, very
and his prose books as well. We'll throw a couple
of prose books up. Yes, he write some really good
prose books. All right, So let's go into the honor roll.
Actually that is correct, all right?

Speaker 2 (01:26:46):
That the honor roll everybody is where if you go
over to iTunes or an Apple podcasts excuse me, and
you leave us a five star review. We are going
to read your review. Whatever you write, you can literally
give us a dissertation about the economics of Wolvers travels.
Is it affordable for him to go to Japan or
is it not? You could write it into your Apple
Podcasts review and we will read it on the air

(01:27:07):
for thanking you for helping us in the Apple algorithm. So, actually,
who joins the on a roll today?

Speaker 1 (01:27:14):
So we have two people joining us today. The first
is Ali Andreasen, who says incredibly helpful and delightful. I
found this podcast trying to learn more about Oracle slash
Barber Gourdon. I mean, you clearly have excellent taste. When
I watched The Killing Joke for the first time, and
I learned so much more than I ever imagined. Now
my husband and I will listen to different episodes and
tell each other what Jason and Ashley had to say

(01:27:35):
as if they were old friends of ours. We are
ali we are when we watch a new DC or
Marvel project, we say, I wonder what they would say
about this. If you have any basic interest in anything geeky,
take a listen. You won't regret. And they are also
joined by on the Drift, who says, great podcast, been
listening to the show for years, Fun listen, great hosts.

Speaker 3 (01:27:58):
Short and sweet love both options.

Speaker 1 (01:28:01):
We love a short and sweet moment, We love an
emotional man.

Speaker 2 (01:28:04):
Well, thank you so both for writing those reviews.

Speaker 1 (01:28:07):
What's going on in the teacher launch today, Jason.

Speaker 2 (01:28:09):
Well, Professor Howett is teaching wood shop, which not survivalism.
And you have to use your clause your class.

Speaker 1 (01:28:15):
Okay, so you don't have clastal clause.

Speaker 2 (01:28:17):
If you don't have clause, you can't join it. Okay,
that's the rule.

Speaker 1 (01:28:20):
Intern Brego is going to do really well in my class.

Speaker 2 (01:28:23):
Intern Brego has won several trophies in intern cat Crego,
so he's in fact, in fact interim cat Brego is
the only student that Professor Howett likes.

Speaker 3 (01:28:33):
So that's canon two x men two. He does like cats.

Speaker 2 (01:28:36):
There you go, there you go. All right, everybody, don't
forget that you can subscribe and listen to this podcast
everywhere you find podcasts Spotify, Apple, SoundCloud. And if you
really enjoyed this episode and you know somebody out there
that loves Wolverine or is very excited for Xlis Wolverine,
tell them about this episode. That is the best way
that we get this podcast into new listeners. And we

(01:28:58):
love new listeners, Ashley were Can they follow us on
social media?

Speaker 1 (01:29:02):
You can find us at geekhistory lesson dot com. That
is the official website geek historylesson dot com. Slash blog
is where we started a blog this year. People really
really liked our is Andrew Garfield the best spider Man essay,
So more of that type of stuff coming your way
this year. Also find us at Facebook dot com, slash
Geekistory Lesson on Twitter at GHL podcast and on our

(01:29:24):
brand spank a new Instagram at geek History Lesson, but
follow us there we need help.

Speaker 2 (01:29:30):
I'm so proud. There was a meme on there recently
about like convincing people to watch the Expanse, and I'm
so proud of that meme.

Speaker 1 (01:29:37):
Every time somebody says you can't hurt me, I was
watching it before you, or you did hurt me by
recommending it to me, I take that as a badge
of pride.

Speaker 2 (01:29:45):
All right, you can follow me on Twitter and Instagram
at Jawa. That's jawii In guys, Super Best Friend is
coming February first. I really appreciate your support on it.
Go over there, even sharing it would be awesome. Super
best friendcomic dot com. Ashley is at Ashley V. Robinson
on Instagram and Twitter, and she's got a Kickstarter coming
soon too, so you want to make sure you follow

(01:30:06):
her over there as well. And that's it except for
hashtag stick around, where we make sure we give you
a little bit extra nugget of Wolverine information if you
stuck through our plugs. Ashley Jason, what's our hashtag stick around?

Speaker 1 (01:30:20):
So first answer, best answer, Oh boy, favorite Wolverine cartoon.

Speaker 2 (01:30:27):
Well then that automatically includes every X Men cartoon.

Speaker 3 (01:30:29):
Yeah, of course.

Speaker 2 (01:30:30):
Yeah, Yeah, that's rough. I don't know what's your answer
to me? It's the Wolverine that we get in Wolverine
and the X Men.

Speaker 1 (01:30:39):
Ah, I see, even though X Men Evolution is my
preferred X Men cartoon. Yeah, I think that version of
him gives me more of what I'm looking for for
the character.

Speaker 2 (01:30:47):
That's what I was gonna say too.

Speaker 1 (01:30:49):
I mean, if it's easier for you, do you have
like a favorite Wolverine moment from one of the movies
that really stands out to you? Not off the top
of my head, Okay, No, Like I love the moment
in X two where the Ansin is being raided and
he jumps off of the second floor staircase onto all
the all of Brian Cox's soldiers.

Speaker 3 (01:31:07):
I love that a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:31:09):
Uh No, not off the top of my head.

Speaker 1 (01:31:10):
Well, there you go.

Speaker 3 (01:31:11):
Excellent stick around.

Speaker 2 (01:31:14):
I mean, Wolverine the X Men is pretty good. I
wish you to continue.

Speaker 3 (01:31:17):
Nightcrawler is really good in that too, is.

Speaker 2 (01:31:19):
He He doesn't show up for quite a while.

Speaker 1 (01:31:21):
Yeah, but we watched the episode last year where they
rescue him off the boat and Kitty Pride is there.
It's good. All my Claremont faves and all my Lenuin
faves really show out.

Speaker 3 (01:31:30):
In that cartoon.

Speaker 2 (01:31:31):
Oh do they?

Speaker 1 (01:31:32):
Yeah? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:31:32):
Yeah, they love the Uncanny Cast for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:31:35):
I'm going to give Nightcrawler a call, Okay, I hope
he picks up on the next one. Hello, Hi, Kurt?

Speaker 1 (01:31:44):
Who is this?

Speaker 2 (01:31:45):
This is Jason Inman, host of Geek History last night.
Are you Kurt Wagner the Incredible Nightcrawler? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:31:49):
But usually only text calls me on this line. Oh
how did I get on Texas line?

Speaker 3 (01:31:54):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:31:56):
Anyways, that doesn't matter because I want to talk to
you about something completely. What's up? What's your favorite X
Men cartoon that? What's your favorite adaptation of yourself?

Speaker 1 (01:32:04):
So easy? It does obviously as the one that I
am the lead of versus X Men Evolution?

Speaker 2 (01:32:10):
You're the lead of You're not the lead of X
Men Evolution. It's like rogue, dude.

Speaker 1 (01:32:13):
Yeah, I get more solo episodes than any other character.

Speaker 2 (01:32:16):
I expected you to say, Alan Cumming.

Speaker 1 (01:32:18):
Actually didn't you do not specify live action? Well?

Speaker 2 (01:32:22):
Can I say live action?

Speaker 1 (01:32:23):
There's only one option because there's only one live action Nightcrawler.
Ch is Alan Cumming? Well, there's there's only one live
action night the only one live action Nightcrawler.

Speaker 2 (01:32:33):
Kurt, what's your favorite Alan Coming musical?

Speaker 1 (01:32:36):
Oh? Then he was in the revival cast of Cabaret
and von a Tony Award?

Speaker 2 (01:32:40):
Oh, Kurt? Do you sing Cabaret? Can I hear it?

Speaker 1 (01:32:43):
Absolutely not?

Speaker 2 (01:32:44):
Let me hear? Its just a taste.

Speaker 1 (01:32:46):
If you can name any song from Cabaret, I.

Speaker 3 (01:32:48):
Will sing it.

Speaker 2 (01:32:49):
Isn't it Cabaret beyond Venue?

Speaker 1 (01:32:53):
No? The opening song is called Vidcoman.

Speaker 3 (01:32:56):
Did not know it?

Speaker 1 (01:32:57):
If you're not saying for you, I do not sing
for free on the internet.

Speaker 2 (01:33:01):
I just want to hear, like like a little hubble
of bars. How about mine hair?

Speaker 3 (01:33:06):
Why are you googling?

Speaker 1 (01:33:07):
You do not know mine hair?

Speaker 2 (01:33:09):
I do mine hair? I also two ladies?

Speaker 1 (01:33:15):
So funny?

Speaker 2 (01:33:17):
Can I hear a little bit of Alan coming?

Speaker 1 (01:33:19):
Ladies?

Speaker 2 (01:33:19):
Can we hear a little bit? Is Kurt Wagner doing
anion doing? Two ladies Lead?

Speaker 1 (01:33:25):
Two ladies Lead? Two ladies? D D DoD and I'm
the only man? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:33:35):
Well, folks, actual lyrics, ladies?

Speaker 2 (01:33:38):
Who's this? I'm talking to?

Speaker 1 (01:33:39):
Kurt?

Speaker 3 (01:33:39):
Oh, I don't know. I was just hung out for
a second.

Speaker 1 (01:33:41):
Now I'm back, all right, I see you later Kurt
Byelo saying click.

Speaker 2 (01:33:45):
I already coicked up on you.

Speaker 1 (01:33:47):
Click.

Speaker 2 (01:33:47):
I did that's click?

Speaker 1 (01:33:48):
You say?

Speaker 5 (01:33:49):
Click?

Speaker 2 (01:33:50):
Who would have thought that our Wolverine episode would have
ended with a two ladies Kurt Wagner singing cabaret. What
a wolverine app Indeed, all right, everybody, thank you so
much for listening. I'm Jason, too many songs in mine.

Speaker 1 (01:34:05):
I'm ashal Victoria Robinson and Professor Jason. Would you please
dismiss the class.

Speaker 2 (01:34:09):
I'm the best at what I do, and what I
do is ending podcasts. He's the man without fear. But
you do not have to fear, as we have the
best dared level stories that you will want to read
because your Geek History Lesson on the best dared level
Stories is now in session. Hello and welcome to Geek

(01:34:31):
History Lesson. I am Jason Bear without fear in me.
I am Ashley Victoria Robinson. Welcome to the Mind University
because you have stumbled onto the podcast where we take
one character construct or blind hero from popular culture and
teach you everything you need to know about them.

Speaker 1 (01:34:44):
In about an hour. Except this week, what are we
doing this week, Jason?

Speaker 2 (01:34:48):
Well, this week, Ashley, we are stumbling around in the
dark using our radar sense to take down ninjas because
the one place in the world where we know all
kinds of secret ninjas exist york Er Hell's Kitchen, specifically
this little kind of like six block area.

Speaker 1 (01:35:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:35:05):
Yeah, that's right by the Javits. Yeah, right by the
Javit Center with them some really good diners. No, we're
talking about the best Daredevil stories ever. Because Daredevil season
three is on Netflix. It is getting all kinds of
rave reviews. It stars the wonderful Charlie Cox and Vincent
Ininafrio as the Kingpin. And also I love me some Daredevil. Yeah. Also,

(01:35:26):
we have done a dared level full lesson before, which
is where the Bear without Fear out here. We still
get that hashtag on Twitter, which I love when people
discover the episode back in the past. But I don't
remember what episode number it is. But if you're looking
for a full lesson on Daredevil, that's where you can go.
Go Google. We used Google.

Speaker 3 (01:35:43):
We done did it.

Speaker 2 (01:35:43):
We done did it a long time ago because we
weren't very far into this podcast before, I was like.

Speaker 1 (01:35:48):
I think we did it for the first season of Daredevil.

Speaker 2 (01:35:50):
Look, I have a couple favorite Marvel characters. Fantastic four
is number one, dared Devils number two, the Batman of
the Marvel universe. He is the Batman of the Marvel Unions.
I list love Daredevil. So we're gonna talk about the
top five stories of Daredevil that we love that we
think is awesome. And to ease your way into that,
we're gonna do a quick ten cent origin of Daredevil.

(01:36:11):
Just remind you who this guy is real quick?

Speaker 1 (01:36:12):
Oh good?

Speaker 3 (01:36:13):
I hope he wrote it down because I did it.

Speaker 2 (01:36:15):
I did, Ashley. What's the ten cent origin?

Speaker 1 (01:36:16):
The tencent origin is the first part of the podcast
where this week Professor Jason is going to give you
all the basic constructs, creators, and power sets that you
need to know in case you go to a really
cool Defender Steam cocktail party and someone's like, who is Daredevil?
You know?

Speaker 2 (01:36:29):
Of course, Daredevil is a Marvel Comics character. His first
appearance was in Daredevil number one, Pretty Simple and Hey,
I imagine that April nineteen sixty four. He was created
by stan Lee and Bill Everett. His full name is
Matthew Michael Murdoch. He's an MMM in ooh Yeah's yeah MQ.

Speaker 1 (01:36:47):
That's interesting because Stanley has famously stated that the characters
that he likes the most are the ones he gives
a literative names to and I didn't know anyone was
a triple alliteration.

Speaker 2 (01:36:55):
His team affiliations are Shield, the Chase, Nelson and Murdoch,
The Defenders, the Hand, and the New Avengers. His partnerships
have been with Black Widow and Electra. His romances have
been with Black Widow and Electra.

Speaker 1 (01:37:07):
His abilities.

Speaker 2 (01:37:09):
His abilities include he has super human senses, including a
strange radar sense. He is a skilled hand to hand combatant,
one of the best hand to hand combatants in the
Marvel universe, and he loves to use a billy club and.

Speaker 1 (01:37:23):
Directly responsible for the creation of the teenage mutant Ninja Jourtles.

Speaker 2 (01:37:26):
Well partly yeah and in certain versions. Now, before we
get into the main episode, we're going to talk about
today's sponsor, skill Share. It is the Netflix of Learning.
They're very similar to our podcast, except where we teach
you about funny book, you know, fictional characters, they teach
you how to do real things. So you go to
their site. You check out their online learning platform with

(01:37:47):
over twenty thousand classes. They have categories in business, design, technology,
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why going to skill share really helps me. Here's some

(01:38:10):
of the classes they offer and I've been taking and
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(01:38:34):
are just little videos. They kind of tell you how
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(01:38:55):
over twenty thousand classes for just ninety nine cents. So guys,
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share dot com slash geek history. It's a really cool site.

(01:39:18):
Please go check it out. All right, now, let's go
into the top five daredvel stories. Let's do it now.
These are our choices for our favorite dared level stories.
That's not the objective list, and please send us your
top five dared level stories on Twitter and Facebook, Ashley,
where can they do that?

Speaker 1 (01:39:34):
You can do that at Facebook dot com slash geekistory listen,
or on Twitter at GHL podcast. Also, if you want
to make a recommendation or a request for top five stories,
do it in those places.

Speaker 2 (01:39:44):
Yeah, but we're always looking for ideas of like top
five stories, and we've had a lot of fun recently
doing these top five stories. So anybody that you know,
wants to do more rob We were actually talking about
doing some robins. Yeah, okay, So Ashley, let's start us
off real quick. How big of a dared old fan
are you.

Speaker 1 (01:40:03):
I would say I'm a beginner to intermediate Daredevil fan.

Speaker 3 (01:40:07):
Okay, I like the character.

Speaker 1 (01:40:09):
Haven't done a lot of reading, did a lot of
reading before this podcast. Okay, Okay, so you discovered a
lot of your favorite He's a character that I'm interested in,
but I've not done a deep dive on all right.

Speaker 2 (01:40:20):
Cool, I am interested to hear your number five.

Speaker 1 (01:40:23):
I'm gonna be honest. I also half picked these because
I hope to impress you are Yeah, how you're looking?
Please please please don't feel like you ever have to
do that. No, but we we talk about on this podcast.
When we do list like this, we do try to
include a variety of them by different authors, ones that
are iconic, ones that are maybe lesser known, from a
variety of time periods. I didn't want everything that I

(01:40:45):
did to be out of the more modern Daredevil Erak.

Speaker 2 (01:40:47):
I'm gonna tell you Daredevil, he's my boy. I love red,
as I call it my favorite color. He mine too.
I went for the ones that I felt the most.

Speaker 1 (01:40:58):
That's fair. Yeah, okay, so my number five is from
nineteen eighty two.

Speaker 2 (01:41:03):
That's so long ago.

Speaker 1 (01:41:05):
It is for me, and it is what if number
thirty five? What if Electra had lived? Whoa?

Speaker 2 (01:41:12):
What if I made it on this list?

Speaker 1 (01:41:14):
That is so cool? And I'll tell you why I
picked this story because I hate Elektra and I'm happy
that she died. And I saw this issue recommended by
a lot of people and I read it and it
was really good.

Speaker 2 (01:41:25):
Can we explain what ifs are? I don't know if
we ever have.

Speaker 1 (01:41:27):
Sure, I would think it's pretty self explanatory. But a
what if is the same thing as in else Worlds,
which we've talked extensively about this on this podcast. Usually
the way it happens at Marvel is something tragic kind
of happens. The Watchers, who are these big blue guys
who run the universe, show up and they're like, hmm,
this is sad. Let's see what would happen if something
else went down, and you get to see an alternate

(01:41:49):
take on it, like a Usually it's like what if
the Fantastic Four.

Speaker 3 (01:41:52):
Never had their powers or whatever?

Speaker 1 (01:41:54):
Things things like that it's a way to explore other
ideas without ruining continuity. I actually this one there was
a there was an ongoing what if title.

Speaker 2 (01:42:02):
I think it's great used to be when in the
nineties there was I got to like one hundred issues.

Speaker 1 (01:42:07):
I would also think that as a creator, it would
be a really fun way to play. You know. So
in what If Electra Had Lived, as you might suspect,
it begins with Matt.

Speaker 3 (01:42:16):
He's in mourning.

Speaker 1 (01:42:17):
He's very sad because Electronacchios has recently died. Bills I
stuck a side through her heart and so they pop
down with their little blue heads and their weird white hair,
and they were like, what if Electra had lived? So
there's always balance in stories like this. So when Electra lives,
that means that Bullseye dies when he's escaping from prison,

(01:42:38):
which is an event that sort of leads up to
the death of Electra. The Kingpin puts out a hit
on her because he had hired her to kill Foggy Nelson.
She doesn't. She didn't do that in the regular continuity.
She still doesn't do it in what If. So as
a result, he's like, well, if you're not going to
kill for me, then I'll kill you. Ha ha ha.
So her and Matt leave New York and they take

(01:42:59):
on these new identities and they try to build a
new secret life together.

Speaker 2 (01:43:02):
Go to San Francisco.

Speaker 1 (01:43:04):
No they don't.

Speaker 2 (01:43:05):
Is another classic dar at old Town.

Speaker 1 (01:43:07):
Yes, they try to build a new life for themselves
outside of everything that brought them together, but also destroy
their lives in New York City.

Speaker 3 (01:43:14):
To me, this is kind of like you know.

Speaker 1 (01:43:16):
At the end of The Dark Knight returns, where Alfred
goes to? Is it Paris?

Speaker 3 (01:43:22):
Where does he go?

Speaker 1 (01:43:22):
Somewhere in your life, somewhere in euro And you see
that Bruce and Selena have run away together and they
started this new life and they're being happy.

Speaker 3 (01:43:28):
To me, this is a similar exploration of that theme.

Speaker 1 (01:43:31):
It's the only time that I actually buy the romance
between these two characters. I think Electra is very interesting,
very sweet, and very capable here, and I understand for
the first time why Matt likes her, Because for me
and a lot of incardations, I don't understand why Matt
puts up whether I think I's.

Speaker 2 (01:43:47):
A college girlfriend.

Speaker 3 (01:43:48):
Look, you're supposed to grow out of that college girl.

Speaker 1 (01:43:50):
I'm sorry to all of our college girlfriends out there
are people who have college college.

Speaker 2 (01:43:54):
Well it's a college girlfriend. Yeah, a person that you
date in college that you that you super like. You know,
they're a little bad for you. They're a little bit
bad for you. But there's a part of your brain
where your brain goes, oh, this is the person I'm
going to marry.

Speaker 1 (01:44:06):
Yeah, and Matt never gets over her. Yeah. I feel
like you're kind of supposed to go to someone's gonna
tweet us and tell us ay.

Speaker 2 (01:44:12):
Mary, and I hate I hate to interrupt your choice.
I'm sorry, please, you know, because I don't this is
your about your choice. I think more it's about Matt,
just Matt's. Matt's life is about loss. He loses his mother,
he loses his father, he loses this person, he loses stick,
he loses that election. So he holds on so when
one of those people come back, he's like, oh my god.
You know it's it's like I think of Electra as

(01:44:33):
like an extension of the loss of his dad.

Speaker 1 (01:44:35):
Okay, that's fair, and that's interesting, and that's something that
I had never considered before. When you bring it up
like that, I can I can make peace with it.

Speaker 2 (01:44:43):
Even if I normal can hire me to hire it, right,
Darrell anytime.

Speaker 1 (01:44:46):
Excuse me. I can accept that, even if it's still
not something that's to my taste.

Speaker 2 (01:44:49):
Totally. Wait, look, we could just agree on something like that,
don't I don't like I don't I like Electra as
a character. I don't like Electure as a love interest.
That to Matt.

Speaker 3 (01:44:56):
That's fair.

Speaker 1 (01:44:57):
Also I like seeing Matt be happy. Yeah, and this
is a story where, albeit briefly, he does get.

Speaker 2 (01:45:04):
To be happy. So do they just go become a couple?
What happened? Do they just like? Do they shack up
in knit sweaters?

Speaker 3 (01:45:10):
They shack up together and then people come after that?

Speaker 1 (01:45:12):
Oh okay, of course this is dare level and they
can't be happy. And because you might sustain that. Yeah,
it's really good. It is a single issue. It is
a little wordy because it's the eighties, it's Frank Miller.
The art is super, super beautiful story. Yes, it is
written and penciled by Frank Miller. And I'm gonna be honest,
and I think I've said this on the podcast before.

(01:45:33):
Not a Frank Miller fan really like this issue.

Speaker 2 (01:45:35):
He doesn't. When he draws Daredevil that's a rare thing.

Speaker 1 (01:45:38):
Yeah, and he's the story is so like, even though
it is edgy and these people die whenever, it's very
soft for an air level, and it's interesting to see
him do that. Also, the cover is really stunning because
it's in the daylight over a rooftop in New York
City and Matt and Electra or Daredevil that Electra are
standing facing each other, kind of like they're about to
get married, and they're holding their hands together and they're
both so red against this light blue sky. I thought

(01:46:00):
it was really fun. That's great, that's a great choice.
I have never read this issue. You should.

Speaker 2 (01:46:06):
It's really Oh wow. Is it a Marvel U Limited?

Speaker 3 (01:46:08):
Yes, it is, which is where I read it.

Speaker 2 (01:46:10):
I'm gonna throw something out there because again, I love
daredel reads. My boy. I would pay all the money
in the world for Frank Miller to come back and
write what is his Dark Knight returns for Daredevil like
Grizzly Old Matt, Grizzly O Matt Now Brian Michael Bendis
did Daredevil.

Speaker 1 (01:46:30):
The end.

Speaker 2 (01:46:31):
It's okay, but it's more of Ben Yurick story than
it is a Matt Murdock story.

Speaker 1 (01:46:36):
I love best creator, but I want I want to
Matt Yeah, and I want.

Speaker 2 (01:46:41):
I think Frank Miller should do it.

Speaker 1 (01:46:43):
Interesting. Hey, Marvel, I know you're listening. Please make that happen.
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:46:48):
Jason will plot it, he'll cooe pencil, Yeah, sure.

Speaker 2 (01:46:51):
Pencil, Yeah, you can draw you want, I'll draw the
stick figures in the background.

Speaker 1 (01:46:57):
Okay, cool, cool, All right, tell me about your number five.

Speaker 2 (01:47:01):
My number five comes from a dared Level run that
I think a lot of people forget about but was
a great run because it happened in the middle of
the nineties, and it is a run that I think,
sadly should be collected. It's only been collected very briefly.
But a lot of people give the haha Daredevil to

(01:47:22):
Mark Wade. They claim that that's a mark way to mention.
That is incorrect. That is a Carl Kessel invention.

Speaker 1 (01:47:27):
Ah, what a great Harley Quinn series for from say,
Carl Kessel wrote this great story and his did this
big long run of Dared Level in the nineties.

Speaker 2 (01:47:35):
But his best storyline is called the Trial of mister Hyde.
It's in Daredevil number three fifty four to three fifty seven.
Now he's up. Carl Kestle's run is upbeat, but he
also tells noir tales, and this is his first major storyline. Now,
the interesting thing about this is that this is a
storyline about Daredevil being forced in the position of defending

(01:47:57):
mister Hyde. Who is you know, he's see the mister
Hide of Doctor Jekyll, Mister Hide, he wear's a weird
cape or now he has to defend cape.

Speaker 3 (01:48:05):
You forgot about that?

Speaker 2 (01:48:06):
Now, this is the whole storyline is Matt Murdoch has
to defend this guy. He knows what type of guy
this is, but because of his radar sense, he knows
that mister Hyde is actually innocent of this crime.

Speaker 1 (01:48:19):
But Matt also has such a strong moral code that like,
if he's hired, he'll.

Speaker 2 (01:48:24):
Do the job well. And that's the other thing about
this whole storyline is that Matt has the debate do
I let this guy go to prison because he's a scumbag.
I know he's a scumbag, but he didn't commit this crime.

Speaker 1 (01:48:35):
Just say, it's really interesting to me that you picked
the storyline because at the time of this recording, I
know that you quite recently read a Batman story that
deals with mister Freeze.

Speaker 3 (01:48:42):
A lot of similar themes I really enjoyed.

Speaker 2 (01:48:45):
So it's interesting because again, do I really want to
free of the crime that I know he's gotten away
with other crimes, the world is probably not likely be better. Also,
this has this whole run, the whole car Castle run,
and this is not the entirety of the run. Of course, Yeah,
has amazing art. Harry Nord draws most of the storyline.
Carrie Nord is about to hop onto wonder Woman that
g Willa Wilson. He's amazing, did a big Conan run.

(01:49:07):
Steve Epting drew this, South u Semma, Matt Ryan drew this.
So a lot of this is Misty Night helping Matt
Murdock with the investigation. There's a whole bunch of other stuff.
There's a lot of ties into the Steve Ditko Spider
Man run. There's continuing drama between Matt and Foggy Nelson,
and this is the run that introduced a big part
of the Daredevil mythos. Foggy's mother Rosalind Sharp because this

(01:49:31):
at this point in continuity they are working for her
law firm. And this of course is at the same
time Karen Page is a radio star, which is something
that I think. Yeah, yeah, she's a radio star and
a lot of familiar people call into the radio star.

Speaker 1 (01:49:49):
She like a talk radio host.

Speaker 2 (01:49:50):
Yeah, she's very much like Hellcat in Jessica Jones. I
love which is I'm certain that's yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:49:57):
I love that.

Speaker 2 (01:49:58):
So Carlcastle had a brief run. He had a very
limited run. But this is a classic gem run of Daredevil,
and this is the best storyline from that run that
a lot of people don't know about it, and I don't.
The sad thing about it this matter is Carl Kestle's
whole run is not available on Marvel Unlimited and really
no Marvel and it should be just because of Kerry

(01:50:19):
Nord's art, and it is. I think they only have
like a trade from this entire run out there. They
have never collected the Carl. They need a complete Carl
Kessel Daredevil. Yeah, but Carl Kestle is not a big name.
He is to comic fans, but he's not a big name.
So the Trial of mister Hyde is my number five.
It is to give you a little thing. I love

(01:50:39):
this run so much back in the day. This is
kind of this is the run that got me into
Dared all is the Carl Kestle run. I know that
Carl Kessel made a pitch back in the day, and
he told this to Wizard magazine back in the day.
I remember reading this interview that his ultimate goal of
his run was to make Matt Murdoch Mayor of New York.

Speaker 1 (01:50:57):
That would have been great.

Speaker 2 (01:50:58):
Marvel turned him down.

Speaker 1 (01:50:59):
That would have I am great.

Speaker 2 (01:51:00):
Here's the thing. Guess what Charles sul just did in
Dareduvel did he really?

Speaker 4 (01:51:04):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:51:04):
He did.

Speaker 1 (01:51:04):
He made someone needs to pick that up.

Speaker 3 (01:51:08):
The current clutch so topical just did it.

Speaker 1 (01:51:11):
Well, I'm going to say that Charles still probably do
about that pitch so and probably took the idea from that.

Speaker 2 (01:51:19):
I will say, very nice man. Charles sol absolutely gat
me to the punch because I actually I had had
I had had that in my back pocket.

Speaker 3 (01:51:27):
Yeah, well, you just have to make him a senator.

Speaker 2 (01:51:28):
Well I actually was good. I was. This is a
dream world. If I ever get the chance to work
on Daredevil, I am going to invite Carl Kessel to
co write up an issue with me.

Speaker 3 (01:51:39):
Because I got a Marvel hashtag Jason for Daredevil.

Speaker 2 (01:51:42):
I owe him my love of Daredel was to him. Yeah,
so there's really ye.

Speaker 1 (01:51:49):
So sweet Hay, there is so little motion a big fan.

Speaker 2 (01:51:54):
I just actually bought his Kickstarter books, So there you go,
there you go. All right, there's my number five.

Speaker 1 (01:51:57):
Cool?

Speaker 2 (01:51:58):
What is your number four?

Speaker 1 (01:52:00):
My number four has to do with a team up Now.
I spent a lot of time trying to pick a
Spidey story for here. Interesting, but it's really I love
Spidy and Dartedevil as a pairing. That's actually how I
first came to appreciate and read more Daredevil because they
think the balance each other really really well and their opposites. However,
Spidey tends to take over those stories, but I really

(01:52:21):
wanted to include one where two characters either have to
work together or at odds, and so instead I came
up with the Next Men story. So my number four
is a Wolverine Enemy of the State Part five, which is,
first of all, please request the Wolverine stories because that
would be so much fun.

Speaker 2 (01:52:40):
Ashley and I have talked about many times of our
love Enemy the State on this podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:52:43):
Out of the State is I forgot Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:52:47):
In part five, I'm just going to tell you what
happens to this, because the thing about Wolverine is he's
a character that you just want to see everybody fight, right,
kind of like I think people feel that way about Deadpool.

Speaker 2 (01:52:57):
So that's a whole point of Wolfreine's character is the fight.

Speaker 1 (01:52:59):
Right. So wolver at the time is brainwashed and he's
kind of in this braserk rage by Hydra slash the
government depending on your reading of it or exactly the
narrative at the time. So they send him out to
kill Daredevil and they have this amazing fight and of
course it might it's Mark Miller, so like yeah, and
art by John Remated Junior and Klaus Jensen is also

(01:53:20):
the secondary artist on that. Electra shows up in it,
the Hand shows up, and the usual Daredevil suspects all
kind of show up to fight Logan and it's really like,
I don't know if the narrative is much to speak of,
but like, just read it for the this is the
equivalent of the Hallway fight. Yes, in every season of daredemm.

Speaker 2 (01:53:40):
I remembering it wrong. Does Wolverine like sneak in the
Mats apartment.

Speaker 1 (01:53:44):
And it's cool because you get to see wolverinees, particularly
his sense of scent versus the radar sense, as he's
kind of creeping up on dr Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:53:56):
Like I said, there's maybe not a.

Speaker 1 (01:53:57):
Ton of story for me to see her in his
described you, other than the framing of why they come
into a fight.

Speaker 3 (01:54:04):
Yeah, but it's just really cool.

Speaker 1 (01:54:06):
And it's I don't we all know Dared Nevil's a
really skilled fighter. That's something that you brought up earlier.
I don't think of him as being a vicious person,
and that is driven by that morality. It's driven by
that Catholic guilt. And it's interesting because Wolverine is a
friend and he's an ally and it's interesting to see
how far he pushes Matt before Matt really hits back, because.

Speaker 2 (01:54:26):
They both they both are characters that deal with honor. Yes,
they're both ninjas, Wolverine's and Ninja.

Speaker 1 (01:54:31):
Yeah, yeah, he is. One of his best storylines actually
comes out of Jaman. Please request the top five Wolverine storry.

Speaker 2 (01:54:38):
Oh man, that would be interesting because I would I
would pull some deep cuts because I'm not a huge
Wolverine fan, but like I would go into the weeds
on Wolverine.

Speaker 1 (01:54:46):
Wolverine is a character when he's good he's really good
and enemies. Yes, an enemy of the state is one
of the one of the ones where he's really good.
I would you could just pick up this whole series.
This is towards the end of it, but it's very Yeah. Yeah,
that's great. So there.

Speaker 2 (01:55:01):
I'm sorry.

Speaker 3 (01:55:01):
I didn't have a ton to say about.

Speaker 2 (01:55:02):
It, but it was really it's a fight issue.

Speaker 1 (01:55:04):
Yeah, and I wanted to include it. So tell me
about your number four, Ashley.

Speaker 2 (01:55:08):
Yes, Jason, when you say tell me about your number four,
that should give you a key clue about is.

Speaker 3 (01:55:15):
It fantastic Oh? Yes it is.

Speaker 2 (01:55:19):
It is Fantastic four, number thirty nine and forty called
and a blind Man Shall Leave Them.

Speaker 1 (01:55:27):
That's a great title. Nice little biblical illusion. They are
very clever. I like to call it the Battle for
the Baxter Building. I'd like that even better if you caught.

Speaker 2 (01:55:35):
If you know anything about this podcast, you know that
I love the first hundred issues of Fantastic Four. Is
Stanley Jack Kirby. This is thirty nine to forty. This
is pre galact to showing up. So basically the storyline
of this is that the Fantastic Four have been rendered
powerless by doctor Doom. And read Richards is working on
some ways to like, you know, bring their powers back

(01:55:56):
so they can find crime. But then doctor Doom shows
up to invade and takes over the Fantastic Fours headquarters. Luckily,
the Fantastic Four's lawyer, a little gentleman by the name
of Matt Murdoch, was actually in the building, and so
he slips away, dawns is Daredevel costume and comes back
and stops the invasion of the Baxter building. So Matt

(01:56:20):
turns into Dared Level. He helps lead the fight against Doom,
and he can actually stop Doom because of his radar sense. Now,
there are several points during this storyline where they talk
about like, oh, man, Dared Level, you're quite skilled even
though you don't have superpowers. Even though I consider his
radar sense to be a superpower.

Speaker 1 (01:56:36):
You know, that's interesting and maybe that's maybe that's a
debate that we'll have on a future episode because it
is one of those hotly contested topics. Whereas I would
agree with you, I do think it's obviously a.

Speaker 2 (01:56:49):
Super He is a superpower, like if he was a
skilled ninja, just for the fact that he because he
lost his sight all his other sites are better then
I would say, yeah, he doesn't have suit, but they
invented this, like you know that he can sense people.

Speaker 1 (01:57:03):
Yeah, he can basically see. Yeah, you know with the
radar he can basically We've seen in two different live
action Daredevil incardation.

Speaker 2 (01:57:11):
Yes, yeah, yeah. So basically this is Daredevil fighting Doctor
Doom in the Baxter Building. I gotta tell you this,
it's a classic Kirby story. It's written by Stanley and
Jack Kirby. Are by Jack Kirby and Frank Gillakoia and
Vince Coletta. I'm saying those names completely wrong. It's two
part in part two, basically Daredevel does actually fistfight Doctor Doom. Great,

(01:57:32):
and there's a classic thing Doctor Doom fight in it,
so it's great. I'm pretty certain this is on Marvel Unlimited.
And I just love, I really love the idea that
Matt Murdoch is the superhero lawyer of the Marvel universe.
They've sort of a role they've given the Jennifer Walters
over the last couple ten years or so, but I
like it better that it's Matt Murdoch, That Matt Murdoch

(01:57:54):
is the lawyer on everybody's speed.

Speaker 1 (01:57:56):
Now, Is that just because you like him better than
Jennifer Walters, which is no knock against her character, it's
just your preference.

Speaker 2 (01:58:02):
No, I actually think. I just think because you can
tell that that's what stan Lee wanted, huh huh, And
that's the reason why I think he made him a lawyer,
and they've there's sometimes Darede will get shunted off into
like crime and Norr and King Ben.

Speaker 1 (01:58:17):
I'll tell you what I would like to see Jennifer
Walter's do, even though this is not our shee Hell episode.

Speaker 3 (01:58:21):
We did that many years ago.

Speaker 2 (01:58:22):
I taught it.

Speaker 1 (01:58:22):
You can go check it out at you guess her
lesson dot com. Ug. I would really love to see
her take on a public defender role because that's something
that's very trendy in like media right now. And to
be a good public defender you've got to be kind
of hard and edgy, and I'd love to see her
smack around a couple punk kids and teach them the
right way.

Speaker 2 (01:58:40):
It's interesting because Matt Murdock Currents at the time of
this recording, is now a prosecutor, not a defense attorney. Yeah,
which is something that has twisted around. You know, I
don't know. I mean, to be honest with you, why
not team every lawyer up in the Marvel universe and
make them have their own firm.

Speaker 1 (01:58:57):
Great, and Foggy's the one who's stuck being in charge
because he doesn't have a superhero identity. That's Boston Legal
for superhero. Let's go, you know what. I would read that, Yeah, let's.

Speaker 2 (01:59:05):
Go, because I think there are some other lawyers in
the marvelnis. But I like the idea that Matt Murdoch
is the secret lawyer of the DC unit or that
you me the Marvelnois and the DC universe.

Speaker 1 (01:59:14):
Yes, so I like that.

Speaker 3 (01:59:16):
So yeah, it sounds like I love your I Am
Not Daredevil shirt.

Speaker 2 (01:59:20):
But yes, my number four is the n A blind
Man Shall Lead Them?

Speaker 3 (01:59:25):
Great title.

Speaker 2 (01:59:26):
Yeah, there you go, that's my number four. Cool and
it just actually coincidentally ended up as number four. You
didn't do that. I didn't do that on purpose.

Speaker 1 (01:59:33):
That's funny. Your intro into it was very swell.

Speaker 2 (01:59:35):
I enjoyed it, Ashley. What's your number three?

Speaker 1 (01:59:38):
My number three is another Frank Miller story. It's a
little further down the line. And to be honest, I
mostly picked it for Bilson Kevich's art, no problem with that.
It is called Daredevil, Love and War, and that's the
collection that you can find it. It's part of from
nineteen eighty six. This is the story of If you're
a fan of the Daredevil television show and the will

(02:00:00):
and Fisk Vanessa relationship, then I would really recommend picking
up this story. It deals with Vanessa coming to terms
with who I almost send Vincent Danafre would have been
around the time, so I'm sure he's a lovely human.
But she's coming to terms with who Wilson Fisk really is,

(02:00:20):
what he does, and whether or not she can live
with that. So she kind of wants him to step
away from that. He wants to keep a hold on her,
so he's trying to keep his relations His criminal enterprise
is secret, but he's fighting with this brain surgeon at
the time, so he kidnaps her his wife, and he's
trying to hide it from Vanessa and Daredevil has to
come up and save the day.

Speaker 3 (02:00:41):
There's also a.

Speaker 1 (02:00:42):
Character who is the POV character for a lot of this,
who is a drug addict slash murderer slash autistic person,
and I think they use that as the excuse to
have billson Kevich do some of his most fantastical arting
in this book, because you kind of see it through
his lens and his feelings. A lot of the material
when you go to look at this online describes it

(02:01:04):
as having a dreamlike quality.

Speaker 2 (02:01:05):
I would agree with a lot of Bill Sinkovitch as
are I would describe as that.

Speaker 1 (02:01:08):
I would say this is maybe the closest to something
like Arkham Asylum that you can get from a Daredevil story.
I also am a huge fan of the Wilson Fisk
Vanessa relationships, so I liked going back and seeing how
it begins being seated here and how that influenced the
television show.

Speaker 2 (02:01:24):
Can I see your question?

Speaker 4 (02:01:25):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (02:01:26):
Do you would you prefer Vanessa's alive or dead? Because
I will tell you there are several Daredevil storylines where
we deal with her death and then she comes back,
and then she dies and she comes.

Speaker 1 (02:01:36):
Back, and her death often stay with the Kingdom, but
you have Vanessa often informs why Wilson Fisk is the
way he is.

Speaker 2 (02:01:42):
Do you want Vanessa live or do you want Vanessa
in your perf? You say your perfect Daredevil story in
my perfect Daredevil story. She's alive, and I do like
it the way they've done it on the show, where
she sort of not reluctantly, but she comes around to
his side, Like, I think that's very interesting, and I
think it's interesting that she can ground him in that

(02:02:02):
way because at least so it's portrayed in a more
modern sense, Like I think she's.

Speaker 1 (02:02:07):
Smarter than him. She is smart, and I think that's
very fascinating. So Daredevil, Love and War, it's beautiful and
soft aesthetically, it's not as emotionally beautiful, and it's funny.
Both of the Frank Miller stories I picked are like
Frank Miller versions of love stories. It's not as soft
and wonderful and feeling inducing as what if Electra had lived?

(02:02:28):
But it's a really fascinating examination of the Kingpin. And
I think it's one of the first times, I think,
maybe beginning in the eighties is generally when this was
happening in comics, when we got a chance to actually
look at the Kingpin as a person as opposed to
just like I'm a giant comic book villain rubbing my hand.

Speaker 3 (02:02:47):
Spot of may Yeah, like you see him crushing.

Speaker 2 (02:02:48):
Spider Man the nineteen sixties Kingpin Voice spider Man Skull.

Speaker 1 (02:02:52):
And I that's something that even though I often have
a hard time enjoying a story that's driven by a villain,
I think when it is well done, it is very,
very fascinating. And the impact of this particular storyline, I
mean the reason that I've mentioned the television show several
times in talking about it. You can feel it ripple
through Daredevil's history. So I think it's very important as well.
And I don't think there's enough people appreciating Billson kembich

(02:03:14):
art out in the world, so please go check it out.

Speaker 2 (02:03:16):
It's correct.

Speaker 3 (02:03:17):
Also follow him on Twitter.

Speaker 1 (02:03:18):
He's fun cool. So the Yah Daredevil, love and war.
So Jason, what is your number three?

Speaker 2 (02:03:24):
Yes? My number three was called The Murdoch Papers.

Speaker 1 (02:03:29):
You would like that.

Speaker 2 (02:03:30):
Daredevil Volume two, number seventy six to eighty one. The
Murdoch Papers is the final storyline in Brian Michael Bendis's
very long Daredevil run. It's one of the best Daredevil
runs of all time and basically the beginning of Brian
Michael Bendess's Daredel run. He has a crook exposed Matt
Murdoch's identity to the whole world, and the majority of

(02:03:54):
Matt Murdoch's storyline through Brian Michael Bendis's run is people
being like, you're Daredevil on him and like, no, I'm
not there, You're dared always like no, I'm not. It's
never confirmed. Well, the Murdoch Papers is all about the
Kingpin shows up to the FBI and says, in exchange
for our immunity, I will deliver proof positive evidence papers

(02:04:17):
that say Matt Murdoch is daredebil hence the title the
Murdoch Papers. So the FBI apparently has not been able
to prove it this entire run, so they're going to
take the deal. And this leads to Daredevil on a
chase with his allies Electra and Black Widow, trying to
beat the FBI to whatever.

Speaker 1 (02:04:36):
With his two girlfriends, with his two.

Speaker 2 (02:04:38):
Ex girlfriends, trying to beat the FBI in a race
to solve these papers, to stop these papers. And of
course it comes on this several things because Electra believes like,
just let it go. Who cares be darabile whole time,
and Black Widow's like, no, you need your identity, And
then there's the Kingpin playing this whole kind of game.
It's a brilliant wrap up to this entire run, and
it's really good. And also, this is the storyline. I'm

(02:05:01):
going to spoil the ending for it. This is the
Daredevil storyline that started this recent trend that Daredevil writers
have centered done it. It's sort of become this thing
for Daredevil writers to leave a cliffhanger at the end
of their run say that the other writers have to
solve and generally most of them have done it, like
Mark Wade didn't really do it, and Andy Diggle didn't

(02:05:23):
really do it. Let's say to Brian Michael Bendist do
at the end of his run. So, Brian Michael Bennis's
cliffhanger is probably the ultimate. This is probably one of
the best Daredvel cliffangers of all time. Matt fails. Matt
does not get the Murdoch papers. He is arrested, and
he has taken to prison. That is the last page
of Brian Michael Bendis's run, which leads into the brilliant
Ed brew Baker run, of course, but which I said

(02:05:45):
to fact know Ed brew Baker Daredevil story made it
on my list. I mean yeah, unfortunately, and I like
that run a lot. But the last page is yeah,
Daredevil Ghost to Prison cool, which is a hell of
a cliffhanger. And I don't know if I'm the next
coming in, I might be like, damn it, huh man.
But yeah, So the Murdoch Papers is a really good run.

(02:06:06):
And hopefully if you, I hope you read the rest
of the run. But I didn't want to suggest the
whole like sixty issues. I just wanted to give you, you know,
just the what I think is the best storyline of
the whole run. So there you go.

Speaker 3 (02:06:18):
That is my number three, cool number three?

Speaker 2 (02:06:21):
What's your number two?

Speaker 1 (02:06:22):
My number two is the most modern of my choices.
It is an iSER winning run. It is Daredevil by
Mark Way, the entirety of the run. I'm specifically recommending
volume one, and then I'm mostly going to talk about
issue number seven, which is the one that won the eyes.

Speaker 4 (02:06:41):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (02:06:42):
I just want to point out though, when I do
se Sammy Yes, is it Sammy or Somny Somny Chris insomnia.
If you go to Amazon and you are looking for
Daredevil Volume one by Mark Wade, the description whoever wrote
this description really wild? It says, Mark Wade joins neo

(02:07:02):
legendary artists Paulo Rivera and Marcos Martin for a new
spit on daredbl that will leave you gasping for air
like your role. Marcos Martin was the first art. But yeah,
somebody really loves Marcus.

Speaker 3 (02:07:13):
A really good to see.

Speaker 2 (02:07:14):
Marcos Martin wrote it, it's a really Marcus. Hey, Marcos,
we know you listen, do you were? Do you write
Amazon descriptions?

Speaker 1 (02:07:23):
Now? Your work on Private Eye was really cool. It's
really great. He is doctor Strange. The oath is amazing. Yeah,
I just thought that was really funny and I had
to read it because we of course because we have
our recommend reading Patreo of the Amazon links open and
I just thought that was super, super hilarious. Jason alluded
to it earlier. People think of this as sort of

(02:07:45):
the happy dared vel.

Speaker 2 (02:07:46):
Well, Daredove's always been described as a swashbuckler. Yes, this
is truly swashing, and Mark Wade said in many interviews
when he took this run that he was like, I'm
going to bring the swashbuckler back. But Carl Kessel then
at first Stan Lead it a little bit too.

Speaker 1 (02:07:59):
Yes, another way that I've seen this described as that
he's grinning in the face of hell, which I think
is kind of a cute idea. The fights throughout this
are fun because the Billy Club really gets a lot
of interesting play in a way that it hadn't been
used before. I think that comes out of the idea
san Fran, which is so cool. Of the swashbuckler Yep,
Foggy is a really really big part of this book.

(02:08:22):
The public identity of Daredevil is a really big part
of this book because Daredevil by Mark Wade began.

Speaker 3 (02:08:28):
With Marvel Now.

Speaker 1 (02:08:31):
I think so in Marvel now, like right in that
sort of first couple of years, that first wave of it.
So Mark Wade was able to visit a lot of
even though it was in San Fran, a lot of
familiar trappings, a lot of familiar characters, a lot of
usual suspects, but for this soft new continuity.

Speaker 2 (02:08:47):
But the interesting thing too is that this is comes
post my number three.

Speaker 3 (02:08:51):
Yes it does.

Speaker 2 (02:08:51):
So everybody in the world knows Matt Murdoch is Daredevil, yes,
but for part of.

Speaker 3 (02:08:56):
It he's like, no, I'm not.

Speaker 1 (02:08:58):
Yeah, yeah, Like there is a good amount of denial
in it. And then we put it back in the box,
of course, because this is comics. But what I think
is interesting is that I remember when Daredevil number seven
won the Eisner.

Speaker 3 (02:09:10):
It seemed like a very big deal at the time.

Speaker 2 (02:09:13):
Can I make a guess please? Is this the issue
where he leads the blind kids.

Speaker 1 (02:09:16):
In the snowy so to tell you sort of a
truncated version of what happens school Bush crashes with a
bunch of blind children on it.

Speaker 3 (02:09:25):
Daredevil.

Speaker 1 (02:09:26):
Let's just say that he appears and he has to
save them, but in the end he collapses because he's
probably wearing spandex, and they wind up saving him. It's
a very sweet story. It's a very I'm gonna say,
it's a very Undaredevil story. And maybe that's why people
think it's weird that it won or it's interesting. And
I think it's weird that it won. Do you do

(02:09:48):
you think there are better and more deserving dar Devil stories? Well,
that's a criticized.

Speaker 2 (02:09:53):
I think it's a great, great story, and I see
why it won the Eisner. It doesn't feel like a
Daredevil story to me. I would agree, and I and
I love one of the usual track and I love
Mark Wade, and I think his writing it is fantastic.
And that's why I say this with all respect. A
blind man reading leading a bus of blind children seems

(02:10:16):
a little cliche to me.

Speaker 1 (02:10:17):
Just so fair.

Speaker 3 (02:10:19):
I mean again, it's a great story.

Speaker 2 (02:10:21):
The story is great, and I totally understand why it
won the Eisner. Would I have ever nominated it? No?

Speaker 3 (02:10:28):
Okay, that's fair.

Speaker 2 (02:10:29):
That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (02:10:29):
It's totally fair, and you can still enjoy.

Speaker 2 (02:10:31):
Mark Wade is more successful and more famous than so
you win, Mark, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:10:35):
But that's fine, like you can still hold that point
of the last thing I want to mention about it
is we've mentioned a bunch of the artists that have
worked on it. Mark Wade's Rudd had some of the
most phenomenal artists working on it.

Speaker 2 (02:10:49):
It's a great run.

Speaker 1 (02:10:49):
Mark run is amazing, and it has covers by Mike
and Laura already that are stunning.

Speaker 2 (02:10:54):
If you Mike did a whole issue, I think, yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:10:57):
If you do pick up the omnibus that's out of it,
it's got a all Red's cover which is really really gorgeous. Also,
this is a run credited with first showing us the
three hundred and sixty degree version of the radar sense
and sort of quote reinventing the way we saw the
radar sense.

Speaker 2 (02:11:15):
All right, I guess. I mean, I've read this run
several times and I own it, and then I don't
know if I would have ever credited, but.

Speaker 3 (02:11:21):
Sure, yeah, that's fair.

Speaker 1 (02:11:24):
I don't know if it's the first time it was
seen or maybe the first time in the modern era
that this was seen, but a lot of people like
to point to this as being a really inventive new
way to show the way the radar sense work. Well.

Speaker 2 (02:11:36):
The reason why a lot of people give this run
a lot of credit is because Daredevil post Frank Miller
is kind of like Batman. Every creator post Frank Miller
is chasing Frank Miller is chasing Frank Miller, but also
trying to make like darker. So much guilt sin a
man Murdoch, what do I do?

Speaker 1 (02:11:57):
Like?

Speaker 2 (02:11:57):
It becomes more and more And I remember Mark Wade
sen An you once where he said, how can I
go darker? I can't go darker? And when you think
about it, At Brubaker making him darker and Andy Diggle
to out top At Brubaker had dared ol become a demon.

Speaker 1 (02:12:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:12:12):
Yeah, you know, you can't get much darker than going demon.
So I understand like making the shift and being like,
let's go back, let's go happy, because we haven't seen happy.
I will say this, And I, of course I also
forgot that Mark Wade has been a guest of our podcast,
Mark Wade's first volume. This volume that you're suggesting is
one of the best books to hand somebody that has

(02:12:34):
never read daredel before. I, in fact, earlier this year
gave it to somebody. Als, Hey, you like Daredevil, you
should read that. All you have to know is that
the identity is public. It's a fantastic jumping on point.

Speaker 3 (02:12:44):
So there you go. I think it's great.

Speaker 1 (02:12:48):
And it's also the first Daredevil volume of Daredevil that
I ever read.

Speaker 2 (02:12:52):
Is it really?

Speaker 5 (02:12:52):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (02:12:52):
It is, yeah, like like like a whole volume of
just Daredevil. Sorry, So fact, Jason, what is your number two?
My number two is a Mark Wade story. Hey look
at that, but it is the best Mark Wade story.

Speaker 3 (02:13:05):
Does it have blind children in the snow?

Speaker 2 (02:13:06):
No it does not. It is a storyline called Ikari,
and it is Daredevil volume three, number twenty three to
twenty seven.

Speaker 1 (02:13:15):
This is I'm just gonna put the omnibus on our
recommended reading. Then I have the specific trade for this one.

Speaker 2 (02:13:21):
Okay, so you know, for our listeners that don't have
the money to sholl out this rone on the bus.
So this is the finale of his two years and
basically throughout all of Mark Wade's run, you know, as
you know, there is a mysterious bad guy. We don't
know who the bad guy is, and eventually it's revealed
that it is Bullseye Yes. And the cool thing about
this storyline is that Bullseye has hired this guy named

(02:13:44):
Ikai who has Daredevil's radar set.

Speaker 1 (02:13:48):
It's actually really cool. I can't believe someone didn't do
it before.

Speaker 2 (02:13:51):
And he's stressed in a sort of ninja version of
Daredevil's yellow and red original costume, which is really cool.
So there's a great, great scene where Ikari just keeps
kicking dared Devil's ass, like Matt cannot beat him, and
Matt can't figure out why he can't beat him and
do this stuff like that, and then that's eventually where
leads a relation like, oh he has a radar sense,

(02:14:12):
that's the reason why I can't beat him. So Matt
is like, oh, he's just like me. He's a blind guy,
he's a ninja, he has a radar sense. What's the
one thing that can beat me? A sprinkler system?

Speaker 1 (02:14:24):
The death of electric So it's just.

Speaker 2 (02:14:27):
Like the snowstorm.

Speaker 1 (02:14:27):
It's the reason why the snowstorm because it makes him
blind because he can see all this asthetic he's a static.
So he goes he goes into he goes into this
sporting's good store and he sets off the sprinkler system
and he's like, I have to just trust that he's
as blind as.

Speaker 2 (02:14:44):
I am right now. But he's like, I know he's
coming down this, I know he's there. So Matt, assuming
that he's blind, he's hiding behind a pillar, reaches out
to grab a red baseball bat and or a blue
one or something. It's a color joke. I can't remember exactly,
but he goes out to reach it and hekari goes
grab the red one. Yeah, and so Matt's like, oh crap,

(02:15:09):
he's not blind. Yeah, that's the reason why he's been
able to beat me, because he has one more sense
than I do that I don't have. And that moment
is amazing Ekati is an amazing villain. He's an amazing addition.
I'm always impressed when a writer, especially in modern times,
can create a villain that I think stands equal to

(02:15:32):
some of these characters original villains like Bullseye, like Bullseye,
Like oh, Bullseyes a later invention actually, but I'm talking
about like.

Speaker 1 (02:15:40):
But I mean when you I just think, when you
think of Daredevil's Rogue's Gallery bulls, I definitely come.

Speaker 2 (02:15:44):
Sure sure, and like Kingpin is a big one, but
Kingpin's a Dickcoker. Most of the Marvel characters, I think,
like their best villains all come from the sixties. So
that when you can like make a villain that matches
that and feels iconic like that, I think that is
an impressive thing.

Speaker 1 (02:16:00):
Would you like to see if we got a new
season of Daredvil, would you like to see Akari he shirt?

Speaker 2 (02:16:05):
I mean, I'll be honest with you. We have not
finished Shared Level season three at this time, so a
Cary could show up for all I know. And I
would know because I've been staying like spoiler free because
I want to enjoy that series as much as I
as I love as much as I love it I
don't Jared's reds my boy hashtag reads my boy.

Speaker 1 (02:16:23):
Everyone's going to think you're talking about hell boy.

Speaker 2 (02:16:25):
I don't care. So you know, I want to stay.
So Akari could show up on that show for all
I know. He could be in episode thirteen for all
I know. Do not tweet me spoilers. I will block
you immediately. I block for spoilers, so that's the thing
I balk. So anyways, it's a great culmination of the run.
I know it's problematic that I picked the ending of

(02:16:47):
two great runs.

Speaker 1 (02:16:48):
It's fine also because I picked to the beginning of
this run, so hopefully you guys will be.

Speaker 2 (02:16:52):
At in your Somny's art is amazing market leaders, and
Akari is fantastic. To me, I would have given him.
I would have given Mark Way the Eisner for the
bat moment.

Speaker 3 (02:17:02):
Interesting, like I'd have been like, that's genius.

Speaker 1 (02:17:05):
I'm gonna say one more thing about the Eisner for
issue seven. To me, you can look at that issue
and understand why it won the Eisner in the same
way that you can understand why movies win Oscars.

Speaker 2 (02:17:16):
What's a standal Eisner?

Speaker 3 (02:17:17):
Batty?

Speaker 2 (02:17:18):
Oh yeah, do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (02:17:19):
By that.

Speaker 2 (02:17:20):
Yeah, yeah, all right, and again Mark Wade has more
issers than we are, and he is clearly one.

Speaker 3 (02:17:25):
It's a truly great issue.

Speaker 1 (02:17:27):
We're not criticizing the issue a discussion.

Speaker 2 (02:17:29):
Dear friend Mark, who is not our dear friend, but
we we who has been on this podcast before. We
hope you don't take offense.

Speaker 3 (02:17:37):
No, I don't know why.

Speaker 2 (02:17:38):
We're very worried about how Mark Wae is gonna be
offended by this.

Speaker 3 (02:17:40):
He's clearly we respectable a lot. He's great, he's great.

Speaker 2 (02:17:45):
I mean, we'll be lucky if we have the career
that Mark. Wait, yeah, truly, so there you go. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:17:50):
Maybe it's because he's got red hair like Matt so
he is extra cloud.

Speaker 2 (02:17:53):
Yeah, I don't know. All right, Actually we are here. Yes,
the time has come for the final number number one?
What's your number one? What's your What do you consider
to be the best? This is my favorite, but it's
best to you, Yes, what do you think is the best?

Speaker 1 (02:18:10):
I'm like ninety nine percent sure that you could guess
this if you had a billy clip to your head. Okay,
my number one is by my all time favorite comics
creative team Jeff Lobe and I.

Speaker 2 (02:18:22):
Wonder, I wonder Dared Yellow.

Speaker 3 (02:18:24):
Yeah, of course, ye.

Speaker 2 (02:18:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:18:27):
It's part of their Marvel Color series, along with Spider
Man Blue and the other two titles that we don't
talk about spoilers.

Speaker 2 (02:18:32):
Dared Wiello not on my list.

Speaker 1 (02:18:35):
You know what, I am not surprised by that. I
really enjoy it. I also think it's a good I
think it's a good introduction to the character because it
is a year one style story. It reintroduces you to
all of the classic trappings of Daredevil.

Speaker 2 (02:18:52):
Can I ask you a question, yes, do you like
the darede Yello costume?

Speaker 1 (02:18:55):
No?

Speaker 2 (02:18:55):
I hate it? I love it.

Speaker 1 (02:18:56):
I hate it.

Speaker 3 (02:18:57):
The yellow looks stupid.

Speaker 2 (02:18:59):
Actually knows as we because there is a Walgreen.

Speaker 1 (02:19:00):
Why don't you call it Dared Nevil Red.

Speaker 2 (02:19:02):
There's a Walgreens exclusive figure where he's in the yellow costume,
And there's been many times where I've debated by it.

Speaker 1 (02:19:07):
Someone wants to send it jouin po box one six
four two nine and Sino California nine one four one
six thank your box up. Yeah, well, I don't even
know what thank you. It's like you have a radar
sound for numbers. There you go.

Speaker 2 (02:19:22):
So Darrel. So you don't like the yeah, but why
do you love this story?

Speaker 1 (02:19:25):
Okay? I like the yellow suit only for this story, sure,
because yellow is a color that deals with cowardice, and
it is his dad's colors. Though it was his dad's colors.
But this is Matt learning how to not be afraid,
because like Spider Man Blue, this is an emotionally driven
story and a lot of it has to do kind

(02:19:46):
of like in Spider Man Blue, Peter is talking to Gwen,
Matt is talking to Karen Page, who has recently died,
and he kind of recounts.

Speaker 2 (02:19:56):
Which happened in the Kevin Smith Guardian Devil story.

Speaker 1 (02:19:58):
There you go so tweet Kevin's about that. He goes
through his childhood. He tells you about how he became
blind looking up to his father, who was a boxer,
not a good one intentionally or unintentionally, and how his
grief had the death of his father shaped him not
only as a man, but as a hero. And when
you see him at Doctor's first Daredevil costume, instead of

(02:20:20):
that sort of ninja trapping, it is based on his
father's boxing collars and I like that. I like the
way it deals with him becoming brave. I think that's
interesting because I think that that's something that we often
lose along the way when we write about superheroes, is that,
even though it's a completely insane thing to do and
no one should do it in real life, to put

(02:20:41):
yourself out there in that way, it's kind of like being,
in my opinion, for the rules of that universe, it's
like being a soldier or a service member. You have
to be incredibly brave to do that. And Daredevil's is
a character who we don't often look at. We examine
his foibles through the lens of Catholicism, but we don't
ever think of Matt being that scared little boy, and

(02:21:01):
a lot of this deals with that. And also, Karen's
got yellow hair, kind of like when Stacy does in
this issue. So I think the dueling. I like the
yellow theme. Tim Sales art is just my favorite art
in the universe.

Speaker 2 (02:21:15):
He has one female face though, so.

Speaker 1 (02:21:18):
Yes, but you know who else has one female face,
Jack Kirby, Sure, so he also has one male face too.
He's not like three male face but one of them
is the Hulk. So I just think I think Daredevil
yellow is really singular. I think it's really special and
I think it stands on its own and if you
like it, you're gonna like other dart old things. And

(02:21:39):
there's pretty much no way going into this. I was
not going to put it in my number one. Maybe
that's predictable, and if that bothers you, I don't care.

Speaker 2 (02:21:46):
Well, no, it's not predictable. It's fine. You're you loved
him sale and this is what he was lovely, but yeah,
he was lovely. I consider putting this on my list.
I knew you wouldn't, and then I said, no, yeah,
there's actually one, and we'll talk about it in our
Patreon episode on patreon dot com. Slash Joman our Guess

(02:22:07):
shows an extra this week. Our extra podcast will be
honorable mentions or like, I have a big list of
Daredevil storylines and I'm going to ask your opinion on that.
But I'm going to reveal the storyline that all I
almost gave a tie to five, okay, because I felt
that this storyline should be on air, but I eventually
knocked it out.

Speaker 3 (02:22:24):
That's totally fair.

Speaker 1 (02:22:25):
I don't know if it has necessarily anything new to
say about Daredevil, but I think I think the retelling
of the classic tropes is good. Tell me what's your
number one? As our resident Daredevil expert, my number one
is the end all be all Daredevil storyline. It is
the storyline that when you ask people what is the
greatest dared level storyline of all time, this is the

(02:22:46):
most common answer, and rightfully so, because it comes from
the greatest dared level writer during the greatest run. And
it is the Daredevil run that everybody was like, when
is the show gonna do this? It is Born Again
Daredevil number two twenty seven to two thirty three. It

(02:23:07):
is the greatest dared level storyline of all time. I
am not the only person to say that. Look, Frank
Miller reshaped dared Uvel, just like he reshaped Batman, and
like he reshaped many other characters. And this is the storyline.
When people think of the classic Darrevel storyline, this is
the storyline they think of.

Speaker 2 (02:23:23):
It's this storyline. It is so well known that it's
almost cliche now, like so many other characters have stolen
from this storyline. So this storyline. Miller was working with
David Maskelli, who is also the guy who drew Batman
year one and also his editor in the series was
Denny O'Neil, so some heavyweights made this storyline. So this

(02:23:46):
is the storyline that when Matt Murdoch's former secretary, Karen
Page's former level of life, who had left the series
to become an actress, is now a drug addicted porn
star and desperate for drugs, she sells at Murdoch's secret
identity to the drug dealer and eventually it finds his
way to Wilson Fisk, and the Kingpin uses this information

(02:24:10):
to destroy every aspect of his life. He gets them disparred,
he freezes his bank assets, and then eventually, in one
of the best cliffhanger Darrel cliffickers all time, he blows
up Matt's brownstone home, blows it up right in front
of him.

Speaker 3 (02:24:26):
Very iconic panel. You've probably seen it before.

Speaker 2 (02:24:28):
Yeah, And it's the cliffhanger of the issue because Matt
is looking at the building and it's at this moment
up in the storyline that Matt didn't know who was
screwing with him. And then eventually when the building brew up,
there's this kind of inner monologue thing where Matt is like, oh,
you signed your you signed your handiwork Fisk now I
know who it is.

Speaker 1 (02:24:46):
I'm gonna be honest. Of course, is an inner monologue.
It's Frank Miller. That's one of his good tricks.

Speaker 2 (02:24:52):
So Matt has lost everything, he lost the woman he loved,
he's lost his law, he lost his he's lost his money,
he's lost everything's own, so he basically has to be
born again. So Kingpin soon counters a Daredevil that is meaner,

(02:25:14):
more ruthless, and stops at nothing to beat him. And
there's another iconic scene where the Kingpin is working out,
Oh yes, the television show is lifted, yes, and he
realizes the inner monologue. He's like, oh, what's the deal? Like,
Daredevil's never acting like this way before, and he realizes
that by taking everything away from Matt Murdoch, Kingpin says,

(02:25:38):
I have truly created a man without fear.

Speaker 3 (02:25:42):
Hashtag Bear without Fear.

Speaker 2 (02:25:43):
Yes, So it is these two epic titans perfectly. Literally,
Frank Miller took every analogy, every metaphor of Daredevil and
basically cranked it up to eleven and made the story.
Also in the storyline, ben Yurik has a tremendous arc
in this thing because he knows that something is up

(02:26:05):
and he is brutalized by King Kingpin's henchmen even they
try to beat him up to find out who daredebl
is and he will not reveal who Daredvel is even
though he knows that Matt Murdock is Daredevil. But there's
a great Ben bravery scene. I will not give it away,
But there's a reason why everybody talks about this storyline.
There's a reason why, you know, Season three of Daredevil

(02:26:26):
Netflix is basically kind of doing Born Again like an
aspect of it, like a twist of it. And this
is the Daredevil storyline, Like everybody thinks about this, creating
the Man without Fear and the Kingpin knowing Matt Murdock's
identity comes from this storyline. It is kind of a
we kind of just assume it in the comic books.
And Brian Michael Bendis like his earlier storyline Underboss Deals

(02:26:50):
is a direct result of this storyline.

Speaker 1 (02:26:52):
Yeah, so to me, when you're talking about the best
Dared novel storylines of all time, you have to include
the one that ever one copies.

Speaker 2 (02:27:00):
Yes, you have to include the not the one there,
but yeah, you have to include the one that that
that everyone copies. So yeah, that is why this is
born again my number one.

Speaker 3 (02:27:11):
That is a great choice.

Speaker 1 (02:27:13):
And of course people can find these and all of
our recommended reading over at geek History Lesson.

Speaker 3 (02:27:19):
Yes, Colm Slash recommended reading before I had read.

Speaker 2 (02:27:21):
Before we get into that real quick, we have to
talk about our next sponsor. Our next sponsor is Lisa,
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(02:27:44):
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Speaker 1 (02:27:46):
Doctor?

Speaker 2 (02:27:47):
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Speaker 1 (02:29:23):
See you and dream lot and clear clear go eh Steve,
what kind of met do you have?

Speaker 2 (02:29:29):
You know what kind of bet? I have a Lisa Mattress. Yes,
you are having named for my ex girlfriend that we
do not talk about. Clear you know about that? You
know about her?

Speaker 5 (02:29:41):
Correct?

Speaker 1 (02:29:43):
I don't know, Stevie.

Speaker 2 (02:29:44):
I think you should tell me he was the girlfriend
that was consumed Buddy Dark Magic. But you love me more, right,
we'll talk about it later.

Speaker 4 (02:29:55):
Click.

Speaker 3 (02:29:56):
All right, small little guest appearance.

Speaker 1 (02:29:59):
There by that's straight.

Speaker 2 (02:30:01):
Yes, our recommended reading here is going to be the
top three of both of our lists, and by there,
any of those stories interest you and do that stuff
like that?

Speaker 1 (02:30:08):
Please let us know too, especially when we do these
top fives. If you do, go and check out any
of our recommendations, because it's fun for us to know.

Speaker 2 (02:30:14):
Oh yeah, yeah, if you pick up some of our
recommended reading, you're not only supporting your show, but yeah,
like tweet us, tweetus and be like I just got
my copy of Born Again and let us know what
you think and this was terrible, or or pick up
that Mark Wade storyline and be like, I don't know
if they should have won the Eisner.

Speaker 1 (02:30:31):
Mark Wade's going to be so bad at you? Oh man,
I didnot anyways, just kidding. So let's go to the
last section of our podcast, the on our roll, where
if you go over to iTunes or Slash, Apple Podcasts,
slash whatever they're calling in now and you leave us
a five star review on this podcast, not only do
you help this podcast get into the search algorithms, but
we're going to read your review out loud Ashley who

(02:30:54):
left us a five star review and insulted us anybody.
Our first, our first amazing student joy the honor roll
is ny S Techmo, who says great podcasts subscribe now.
I was at a snazzy cocktail party when a buddy
of mine told me about this podcast, and I have
been playing it ever since. I've told multiple people about it.
Is what I listened to on my commute home from work.

(02:31:17):
I even enjoy it with my son just parked after
watching the movie of that episode. I'm a huge, unabashed
Marvel fan and when I and what I did was
go a la carte with the episodes with relevant or
interesting titles. But when I was done, I ended up
listening to them all haha. I love their theme I
love their theme song, and the podcast structure should also
be commended a thousand thanks from a fellow illegitimate skunk

(02:31:38):
bear any s Tech of.

Speaker 2 (02:31:41):
Course our joke of course to the Wolverine episode of
all his illegitimate children.

Speaker 4 (02:31:47):
Bear.

Speaker 3 (02:31:47):
I think it's amazing that you listen with your son.

Speaker 2 (02:31:50):
Yeah, that's cool. I want to know what his favorite
episodes are.

Speaker 1 (02:31:52):
Please follow up and let us know on Twitter at
Gail podcast joining the Also joining is Bama Shocks.

Speaker 2 (02:32:00):
Pretty sure I nailed that it's for Alabama.

Speaker 1 (02:32:03):
I am not America's reference who says do thumbs up
with no less than three exclamation points. This is absolutely
one of my favorite podcasts of all time. They spend
around an hour giving us all the juicy tidbits of
one team character or construct from comics in it easy
to understand and friendly manner. Thank you. I want to
put that on a business card?

Speaker 2 (02:32:24):
Is a business card something you said today?

Speaker 4 (02:32:25):
Say that?

Speaker 3 (02:32:26):
No, that's what I said?

Speaker 1 (02:32:28):
Much?

Speaker 2 (02:32:28):
Is that part of the review?

Speaker 1 (02:32:30):
So Bama Shocks and nes Techmo, welcome to the teachers Lounge.
Jason will tell you which food item you cannot touch
in the fridge.

Speaker 2 (02:32:38):
You cannot touch the rice pudding that belongs to mister Schrader.
What does mister Schrader teach again firearms safety? Jesus, Look,
we're in an American score.

Speaker 1 (02:32:49):
It very important talking about blind characters.

Speaker 3 (02:32:53):
Jesus. All right, don't forget guys.

Speaker 2 (02:32:55):
You subscribe and listen to this podcast on Stitcher, Spotify,
all the place you listen too. You can follow me
on Twitter at job on jw ii in, follow Ashley
on Twitter and Ashley V. Robinson, and follow the podcast
on Twitter at GHL podcast. Don't forget our Patreon Patreon
dot com. Slash job on jaw ii n is where
you can listen to all our extra podcasts. We do

(02:33:16):
movie commentaries. We just did just leave the flashpoint paradox,
and you can listen to our gee hit us an extra,
which is ten more minutes on dart level stories that
almost made this list but didn't. Ashley the last section
of the podcast hashtag stick around, where we force people
to listen through our plugs for a little bit more conversation.
What'd you learn about Daredevil or any stories that surprise
you for my list or your list? Just daredvel surprises.

(02:33:39):
Let's call that.

Speaker 1 (02:33:40):
I learned that not all Frank Miller's stories are angry stories.
That's true im and I was pleasantly surprised by that,
because when you do often consult lists like these, there's
a lot of Frank Miller Daredevil recommendations. And then I
actually thought you're mister Hyde recommendation was really interesting.

Speaker 2 (02:34:00):
And the crosscsts runs so good.

Speaker 3 (02:34:02):
Think I'm going to go read that so good.

Speaker 2 (02:34:03):
I don't know if it's on Marvel about it.

Speaker 3 (02:34:05):
Oh, you know what, I guess I'll find it somewhere else.

Speaker 2 (02:34:08):
Some of his run is on Marvel Unlimited, but it's
not complete, like it's like random issues, a little skip
like three or four or whatever. I think he only did,
Like I don't understand why Marvel does that.

Speaker 1 (02:34:17):
You have the whole damn catalog, just digitize it.

Speaker 2 (02:34:19):
I think he only did like a year or two years,
Like he didn't do a long run. Yeah, Like it
was such a good run that I was like, ah, man,
you I.

Speaker 1 (02:34:25):
Went by modern standards, that's a pretty long run. We're
a little with the exception of some people, we're a
little past the five ten year run on a character.
I feel like people are lucky to get more than
twelve issues. Sometimes I agree. I actually think I actually
and I think that's good and bad. Yeah, we are
in a weird world of comic books where you're lucky

(02:34:47):
to get twelve issues. I mean unless you're writing Batman
or Spider Man.

Speaker 2 (02:34:50):
Yeah, and it's hard now because I do think that's
a missing fact where it's hard for writers now to
do these long setups to where you can like set
something in like your issue five and then paying it
off and like issue eighty.

Speaker 1 (02:35:02):
Yeah, unless you're a Dan Slaughter, Tom King, it's hardly
a yeah, it's it's it's rare.

Speaker 2 (02:35:07):
I mean even Tom King's hundred issue run, his hundred
issue run is going to beat Scott Snyder's.

Speaker 1 (02:35:12):
Right, Well, this double shipping helps as well.

Speaker 2 (02:35:14):
Sure, sure that does help, but it's interesting it is. Yeah,
you're are correct. I don't know, like I do think
that that does detract, But I guess it's just part
of the market now. Where you think about Daredevil is
one of the exceptions because you think about it, like
Mark Wade got a two year run, Charles Soul's been
going for about like two to three years now.

Speaker 1 (02:35:35):
On dared level, I think Charles Sol yeah out strips
Mark Wade, I think so.

Speaker 2 (02:35:40):
I think he's had a longer run I think he's
had a little bit of longer run. Ed Brubaker had
like a two year, three year run, Brian Michael Bennas
had like a five year run.

Speaker 1 (02:35:47):
Is there someone that you would really like to see
take on Dared level? Oh, besides yourself? Of course, it's.

Speaker 3 (02:35:52):
Okay if you don't know if the time of your head.

Speaker 2 (02:35:54):
I don't know, because I've been surprised by Daredevil. Like
I would have never told you in a million years
that Mark RK. Wade. I would agree with that Mark
Wade was a weird choice. I thought he was a
weird choice for Dared almost, but now I just goes
to show me that Mark Way can write anything. Mark Wad,
He's written so many characters that I to be honest you,
at this point, I'd love to see Mark Wade do
an Aquaman run because I think that I think it's

(02:36:14):
such a weird character and I think he could knock
it out of Placeman and his JLA just sleep stuff. Yeah. Yeah,
that's why I think I'd be interested to give him
full like go crazy like I mean, my obviously answer
would be say Jefflemere, Sure, I just gonna think Jeff
Mamere is a great writer.

Speaker 3 (02:36:32):
Great, that's a perfectly fine reason to pick someone.

Speaker 2 (02:36:35):
I don't know. I always think like somebody that does
crime should do a great run. Ed brew Baker has done,
already done his great run, so you know what to
be honest with. Let's give it to his Gotham Central partner,
Greg Rucca.

Speaker 3 (02:36:46):
Love it.

Speaker 2 (02:36:47):
Let's give Greg Rucker a run on as drawn by
Nicholas gott Oh. Hell yeah, let's do that. Or Michael Lark, Yeah,
both of his, both of his comic good trip. I
think Michael Lark drew a lot of Ed Bruce Baker,
did he, Yeah, because he was listened to be type
like quickly good. Because remember edbrew Baker and Greg Rucca
teamed up on Gotham Central and brew Baker got Daredevil

(02:37:10):
right after Gotham Central, so he has.

Speaker 1 (02:37:13):
He drew some Daredevil aearting to.

Speaker 2 (02:37:14):
Wikipedia, I think he brought Michael Lark with him. So yeah.
And the reason I say Michael Lark is because.

Speaker 1 (02:37:19):
Gregible volume two sorry guys, number eighty two to one
oh five all the way up to one nineteen and
then five. So from two thousand and six two niney
drew a bunch of Ed Baker, right, so yeah, let's
so let's make it. And he did some of the
Pulse as well. He a parent page had lived make
Greg Rucca, Nichola Scott the art's on Daredevil.

Speaker 2 (02:37:38):
Let's do that. Cool?

Speaker 1 (02:37:39):
Yeah, she draws very beautiful men. I don't know, is
there any writer you think would do a kick ass
Dared Olver run. I mean, I think pulling Greg Rucca
is a really really great.

Speaker 2 (02:37:47):
I just think somebody with a crime background should do it.

Speaker 1 (02:37:49):
Yeah, I see, I see why you're leaning that way.
I mean, I do think Tom King and Mitch Garrett's
can probably take on any character and do it really
really great. Yeah, I'd have to sit. I would love
to see Tamasi and Gleason because they they would draw

(02:38:10):
an amazing, amazing radar sense and when they come into
a character and when they're given time.

Speaker 3 (02:38:17):
They really.

Speaker 1 (02:38:20):
Expand and explode the world in an interesting way. So
it's I think they'd be great. Ye, you are correct.

Speaker 2 (02:38:25):
Their long run on Superman was great, They're a long
run on Batman and Robin was great. And Tamasi is
getting ready to do a super deep detectivey Batman run.
Can't wait, so he already has the crime background, and
he lives in New York. He loves in New York.
If you go read his book The Bridge, his independent
graphing Noll, what's great. Yeah, that would be a great
That would be a good Dared Levil, a really good

(02:38:47):
Dared level. I was trying to think about a lady.

Speaker 1 (02:38:50):
Well, we had, we got Nicola in there at least.

Speaker 2 (02:38:52):
No, I mean, like a lady writer.

Speaker 1 (02:38:55):
But I can't think of one. I can't think of
one that I think would knock Dardel out of the park.
The Benson sisters come to mind for me because they
did a lot of crime detective stuff in their Birds
of Prey sure, and they are more dialogue heavy writers.

Speaker 3 (02:39:09):
So for the lawyering, I think that would be good
oky cool.

Speaker 2 (02:39:11):
I think that's good choices right there, you know, a
little little bit into the weeds, and don't forget hashtag
Rid's my boy. And also, you know, should Mike Wade
have got that ice there? I think so maybe? I
don't know. For Gee kiss with Lusson, I am Jason
Bear without fear in mind, I.

Speaker 1 (02:39:29):
Am Ashley Victoria Robinson and Professor Jason Will you please
dismiss the daredevils.

Speaker 2 (02:39:34):
Excuse me, I'm still trapped in your studio and I
can't find the door. If only I had a ride
off sense. Great leaders seek answers. By getting an answer,
you increase your understanding. Seek answers, and I will provide

(02:39:55):
those answers about iron Fist as this Geek History Lesson
is now in set. Hello, and welcome to Geek History Lesson.
I am Jason che in Men.

Speaker 1 (02:40:05):
I am Ashley Victoria Robinson. Welcome to your Mind University,
because you, dear friend, have stumbled onto the podcast where
we take one character construct or Iron Fist, from popular
culture and teach you everything you need to know about
them in about an hour. Now. If you are a
long standing member of the Line University, you might be saying,
but wait, Professor Jason and Ashley.

Speaker 3 (02:40:24):
You already talks about iron Fist. Jason loves iron Fist.

Speaker 1 (02:40:27):
What's happening?

Speaker 2 (02:40:29):
Rady N made tweet right now to tell you that
you have already don iron Fist, and I think that
you have made a mistake because you are repeating episode
two hundred and twenty six times.

Speaker 1 (02:40:39):
OD oh my gosh, can you imagine it only took
us two hundred and twenty six times to mess.

Speaker 3 (02:40:42):
Up this bat.

Speaker 2 (02:40:43):
That's right. I'm actually surprised that we haven't repeated in
the episode. But no, today is about iron Fist because
I wanted to talk about what I think are some
great Iron Fist stories that you should read in case
you're inn iron Fist mood, and we're talking about that
because Iron Fist Season two with some Typhoid Mary, with
some Daughters of the Dragon with Colleen Wing is right
around the corner, or it might be just right in

(02:41:03):
front of your eyeballs right now, in case you're listening
to this from the future.

Speaker 1 (02:41:07):
Fun fact, two out of three of those characters Jason
just named, we already have geek history lesson.

Speaker 2 (02:41:11):
That's what I am a big fan of iron Fist,
and so that's why I wanted to talk about iron Fist.
But actually this top five it's gonna be a little
bit different than our normal top fives.

Speaker 1 (02:41:22):
Why is that, Well, that is because I've read exactly
one Iron Fist story, which one of you read. I've
read the first volume of the map Fraction Run, maybe
the second one, the one where he goes to.

Speaker 3 (02:41:33):
The Seven Cities and face the guy that's the second one.

Speaker 1 (02:41:35):
I read that one. I read the first two leading
up to the Iron fift series, and then I got
mad at the series and stuff.

Speaker 2 (02:41:41):
So I thought that because I love Iron Fist so much,
that I would talk to you. I would tell you
what I think my five choices, my top five Iron
Fist stories that you should read, are and through each
one of them, hopefully by the end of this podcast,
convince you to read one of them. You by the
end of this podcast, hopefully kind of like what we

(02:42:02):
did in the Vulturon episode. Hopefully by the end of
this podcast, I will convince you. I will bring you
into the Iron Fold, into the temple of Kun Lun,
show you the ways of the Dragon and the chie,
and that you will open your mind and decide to
put on a yellow banana.

Speaker 1 (02:42:18):
Listeners can't see this with Jason is doing pseudo kung
moves and also, listeners, this is gonna be a little
interactive to if you like the idea of structuring list
episodes like this trying to convince the other debate not
really a debate, I guess, but it's kind of like
what if our list episodes, in our discussion episodes had
a baby.

Speaker 3 (02:42:39):
And you like the idea, and then let us know
and we'll consider.

Speaker 2 (02:42:48):
Let us know.

Speaker 1 (02:42:49):
Will your crib or it will hit you like god Tube.

Speaker 2 (02:42:56):
That's the best, that's the best. That's not I want
to be hippy, but yeah, let us know and we'll
we'll they do do more.

Speaker 3 (02:43:02):
Of these in future.

Speaker 2 (02:43:03):
We're on social media. Could they do that?

Speaker 1 (02:43:04):
Actually, oh, you could do that at GHL Podcasts. Also,
please direct all of your requests there, y s. It's
hard to have to dig through different streams. Oh yeah.
Sometimes people will just tag us individually, which is very sweet,
and we try our best. But if you tag JHL Podcasts,
then when we go and do our massive sweep, it's
just easier.

Speaker 2 (02:43:24):
Yeah, that is the place where we check. And we've
been seeing a lot more people just tag us randomly,
which is fine. That's totally cool. Glad you Glad you
enjoyed the podcast. But if you definitely want your suggestion in,
you have to tag one of the GHL podcast social
media's or we might never add it to the list.

Speaker 3 (02:43:39):
Might be going to the ether. Yeah, there you go.

Speaker 2 (02:43:41):
So before we get to the five stories, Ashley, just
to remind you about iron Fist and the listeners I
wanted to repeat the ten cent origin of good.

Speaker 3 (02:43:49):
I thought you were going to ask me what I
remembered about the lesson.

Speaker 2 (02:43:53):
I will now, I'm going to now, but I wanted
to repeat the tencent of iron Fish, just so we're
all on the same page in case you don't know
who iron Fist.

Speaker 3 (02:44:00):
I think that's a fabulous idea.

Speaker 2 (02:44:01):
So what is the tencent origin?

Speaker 1 (02:44:03):
Danny Rand is, no, no, no, what is the What
is the tentsent origin of our podcast? Actually, the ten
cent origin is the first part of the podcast that
I'm completely aware of, and I've done two hundred and
twenty six lin where Confessor Jason is gonna give you
the cliff notes, all the basic do dads ginis and
who has about iron Fist that you need to know?

(02:44:24):
In case you go to a really cool Heroes for
Hire a cocktail party and soone asks you, what's up
with that?

Speaker 2 (02:44:28):
Danny Rand, guy, welcome to pod Save America, everybody. I'm
your host. Jason Niman, all right, save cun Lund. So,
Iron Physic Course is a Marvel Comics character. His first
appearance was in Marvel Premiere number fifteen in May of
nineteen seventy four. He was created by Roy Thomas and
Gil Cain. His full name is Daniel Thomas rand Or

(02:44:51):
sometimes depending on in cun Land, they add parts.

Speaker 1 (02:44:53):
To your name.

Speaker 2 (02:44:53):
He's known as Daniel Thomas rand Kai. That's kind of
been dropped off more recently, an honorifical well, yes, sometimes
in some stories Ironfist stories you'll see him called rand Kai.
They'll just say rand Kai and it'll be like, what
is that. That's it's the honorary cun Lund name cool.
His tim affiliations have been the New Avengers, the Heroes
for Hire, the Defenders, the Immortal Weapons, and the Thunderbolts.

(02:45:17):
His favorite, I love the Thunderbolts. His partnerships have been
Luke Cage, Misty Knight, Colleen Wing, Daredevil and Master Iso
and a Notable aliases have been The Young Dragon, The
Living Weapon and Daredevil. Why was he Why is he
known as Daredevil? Ashley? Do you remember that from his lesson?

Speaker 1 (02:45:35):
Because in Civil War Matt Murdoch was not Daredevil and
they wanted to still think that there was a Daredevil.
So Danny was like, I'm a good guy, unlike what
you might know from Netflix. I'll take one for the team.
He dressed up in Charlie Cox's cool costume.

Speaker 2 (02:45:47):
Yeah, it's when Matt Murdoch's identity was out into.

Speaker 1 (02:45:50):
The public, so they were attempting to reestablish his exactly.

Speaker 2 (02:45:53):
Yes, his abilities are. He's a skilled martial artist in
several forms of all kinds of martial arts.

Speaker 3 (02:45:58):
Inclating ones we've probably never heard.

Speaker 2 (02:46:00):
And he utilizes concentrated's chi into his fist that is
called the Iron Fist. That makes him a living mystical weapon.

Speaker 3 (02:46:08):
Cool.

Speaker 2 (02:46:08):
So, now before we get to our full list, we
have to think our sponsor. Do you find yourself getting distracted? Well,
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(02:46:29):
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(02:46:52):
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(02:47:14):
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S a dot com slash geek history. Okay, let's start

(02:47:50):
off this list here. It's only my list Ashley again,
at any moment, feel free to ask me. Some of
these stories are more clear in my brain currently because
I've read them more recently, and some of them aren't,
so I might mix up details. Please forgive me. But
these are the stories that I think, in my personal opinion,
not objectively, but my personal opinion, are the five best

(02:48:11):
Iron Fist stories.

Speaker 1 (02:48:11):
Ah, And there might be a difference between an objectibilist
and a personal opinion, and they're both great.

Speaker 2 (02:48:16):
So set me up on this, Ashley. Let's start off.

Speaker 1 (02:48:19):
Let's start off. Well, Jason's going to talk about his
number five choice. I don't know what it is, but
number five is a great numbers.

Speaker 2 (02:48:25):
That's all. I'm looking for the numbers. That's all I'm
looking like. You just go and number five.

Speaker 3 (02:48:30):
And take two.

Speaker 2 (02:48:31):
Welcome to POD's America.

Speaker 1 (02:48:33):
Jason, Please tell me about your number five really quickly.
I don't remember Iron Fist episode, but did I have
a Danny Ran voice?

Speaker 2 (02:48:39):
I don't remember.

Speaker 1 (02:48:40):
No. We may, yes, as we were trying to do
the Iron Chef or in Futurama, Iron Cook and some
people didn't like that.

Speaker 2 (02:48:48):
Yeah, oh that's right, Iron Fist, That's right, that's what
it was all right. My number five is a good
place to start for Iron Fist. It is the first
Iron Fist story, called The Fury of the Ion Fist.
That's a great title, Marvel Premiere number fifteen and sixteen.
It's a two part tail. Wait what so basically it

(02:49:09):
is the origin story. It's back to back stories that
basically tell you about his transformation. You get to see
his origin in it, and also you get to see
him fighting a little kung fu tournament. I'm going to
give you a little taste of the amazing Roy Thomas Gilkane.
I believe Roy Thomas Gilkane.

Speaker 1 (02:49:26):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (02:49:27):
Dialogue from the very first page, the very first caption
box of the very first Iron Fist story. Oh please
do hear it?

Speaker 1 (02:49:35):
Is?

Speaker 2 (02:49:36):
You are the Iron Fist. You stand tensely, too tensely,
aware of their eyes on you. You t the hood
excuse me, you t the hooded ones and his four
dragon Kings and facing you, four others edged closer, searching
for an opening, A moment of weakness, careless flickering of

(02:50:02):
an eyelid. That is the opening caption box of the
first Ironfist story. Now tell me that that does not
sound like the most badass Brucely movie you've ever seen.

Speaker 1 (02:50:11):
I was gonna say, I find that very evocative of
like a lot of Asian movies of the time. I
think that's so like, it's very kung Fu would be
very cool, Like you can hear the gong that would
be playing underneath it as it finishes.

Speaker 2 (02:50:24):
So that is from a scene where you see Iron
Fist and he is still doing his training to prove
himself as worthy. Ut is the leader of the city
of kun Lun. Uh huh. Now in these two books
again we see the origin of Iron Fist. His father
is betrayed, he's thrown off a mountain by Mecham. His
mother sacrifices herself to a bunch of wolves to allow

(02:50:45):
Danny to run into kun Lun across the safety of
the bridge, which is pretty freaking amazing. It's probably there's
a very thin bridge over a chasm. Wolves are chasing them.
She realizes that they're not both gonna make it, so
she tells him to go on, and she jumps into
the wolves and tries to wrestle them and keep them
from getting to him because he's about eight. Because I
think all child superhero orphans are about eighty. So in

(02:51:08):
the second issue, Danny once he becomes worthy of being
the Iron Fist, and it's and again. These stories are
are told two fold, like you're seeing his sort of
origin story. In the first issue, you're seeing him fighting
to be worthy, told against intercutting to his origin with
his mom and his mom dying. The second issue is
you see him in New York and fighting some crooks.

Speaker 3 (02:51:29):
I mean, where would it be but New York, and.

Speaker 2 (02:51:31):
Intercut with him getting ready to leave Kunlan for the
first time since he'd ever arrived there to leave his
new home.

Speaker 1 (02:51:38):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (02:51:39):
Now, the interesting thing in the storyline, and the reason
why it's so important to me and why I would
put this on the list, is because this is something
that's kind of forgotten in modern Ironfist stories is that
Danny's only home for the last ten years has been
kun Lun. Kun Lund saved him, ut saved him. The
portal to Cunline, a mystical city, only connects to Earth

(02:52:00):
once every ten years, and if you walk outside it,
you cannot come back to kun Lun for another decade.
Now here's the other interesting fact that it's kind of
forgotten and modern Iron Man Iron Fist story excuse me
and Iron Fist Netflix show. If you live in kun Lan,
you're immortal. What time does not pass in kun Lan
the same way that it passes in the modern world.

Speaker 1 (02:52:23):
Oh so it's like Narnia, Like they live an entire
adult life, they have children in Narnia, but when they
go back, there's still eight ten.

Speaker 2 (02:52:29):
It's actually opposite. Oh really, kun lun time is slower.
Ut is sometimes they say ut is like thousands of
years old to Earth time. Yes, yeah, yeah, you know.
But he's a normal man and the thunderer, the big
kilogogue of kun Lan. Yes, it's the best descriptor of him.

Speaker 3 (02:52:49):
That's a good.

Speaker 2 (02:52:49):
Desertion is the same thing, like he is hundreds of
years old. So by Danny leaving kun Lan, he's giving
up his immortality. Immortality very very arwin even Star move in. Lord,
by the way, is what he fought for for the
last ten years.

Speaker 3 (02:53:07):
It was the right to immortality, right.

Speaker 2 (02:53:08):
To immortality, the right to be the utter champion of
this city. So for him to leave is a huge decision.
That he's so obsessed with the revenge, that's what he is.
They pray.

Speaker 1 (02:53:22):
Danny is very angry. He's so upset with his revenge
that he has to leave. He spits. He spits in
the eye of immortality. That's I think spits in the
face might be more accurate. But let's say the eye.
They have a big eye right in the center your cyclops.
They have intermition virtual eye of Immortality. I think it's interesting,

(02:53:43):
obviously having not read this, that you would classify Danny
as an angry character because he is so commonly teamed
up with Luke Cage, who, particularly in his origin and
in his original incarnation, was very angry.

Speaker 3 (02:53:54):
Care and he starts off.

Speaker 2 (02:53:56):
He's very angry because he's almost Bruce Wayne levels where
he's like, I have to well, because the guy that
threw his dad off the side of the mountain, Harold Meecham,
is still alive, Yes, and he takes over Rand's company,
so that's why he's That's where you can Yes, that's
where you can see the Netflix series. The Netflix takes
a lot of names from this first art. Yes, it does,
although they're not quite the same.

Speaker 1 (02:54:17):
I also think it's sort of fascinating that his introduction
is twofold. It's a two story arc, which was something
that you saw a little more from Marvel during the
Silver Age. But it's not just because he only had
a brief appearance in the first R first issue and
then had a more fuller flushing out in the second
kind of like Mary Jane Watson or Wolverine. Like they
actually when they conceived this character, gave him a two

(02:54:39):
story arc, like they thought he was that interesting and
that good. I think that's very fascinating.

Speaker 2 (02:54:44):
All right, let's move on to the number four.

Speaker 1 (02:54:46):
Yes, Jason's number four for his best Iron Fest stories.

Speaker 2 (02:54:50):
This one's called Fist of Iron, Heart of Stone. I
love that power Man and Iron Fist number fifty. So
in nineteen seventy eight, right, we've moved four years ahead
from the last story that I just told you about.
Both of these gentlemen's comics were gonna be canceled. Yeah,
they weren't selling well well, both of them were based

(02:55:11):
on stereotypes, yeah, and maybe you didn't resonate with their
target audience. So instead of canceling both books, they combined
them like a green arrow, Green lantern style, and it
sort of became this weird mixture of street level toughness
and kung fu movies, and I actually think created one
of the greatest Marvel Comics duos of all time.

Speaker 1 (02:55:32):
Yeah, because we've talked about this on a couple of
the different lessons. But just in case anyone doesn't know,
the only reason Danny and Luke were teamed up was
because editorial was like, well, we either put them in
the same book where we cancel them and cut our losses.

Speaker 2 (02:55:45):
Which is actually safe. It actually worked, which is even
more in say yeah, the fact that it worked.

Speaker 1 (02:55:52):
And remains they've remained one of the most iconic duos.
I actually don't think they made our Marvel Comics duo's lists.

Speaker 2 (02:55:58):
No, they made mine. Oh there you go. I think
they were like number three or number four of Minds.

Speaker 3 (02:56:01):
I don't remember.

Speaker 1 (02:56:02):
It's been so long since then, but when you think
of classic pairs, they they come to mind now and
they're paired up in the Netflix shows as well.

Speaker 2 (02:56:11):
One hundred percent Now this story, of course shows uh
Luke Cage, how Luke Cage meets Iron Fist. Is Luke
Cage bursts into the home of Danny Rand to kidnap
Misty Knight, who at this time, oh yeah, Danny Rand's
partner and their detective.

Speaker 3 (02:56:23):
Agency we talked about are Missy episode.

Speaker 2 (02:56:25):
And they of course fighty fighty fighty and Luke Cage
eventually comes to his senses and he finds out that
he's been blackmailed by the villainous bush Master. Now, of
course Bushmaster has some of his close friends. His hostage
is threatening to kill them if Luke doesn't bring Misty
Night to him, and of course Iron Fist is like,
you ain't doing that, man, Misty's my friend. So Iron
Fist and Misty decide to help out Luke and they

(02:56:46):
embark on a mission to bush Master's layer in Seagate Prison.
Why Skate Prison important, Ashley, Well, that's.

Speaker 1 (02:56:52):
Where Luke Kate used to be locked down.

Speaker 3 (02:56:53):
He's got some feelings about us.

Speaker 2 (02:56:55):
Also where you got his powers.

Speaker 3 (02:56:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:56:56):
Yeah, and interesting enough, by the end of the day,
they save Misty, they save all the friends, they save
Luke's friends, and these two form a new alliance and
go on to become what I think is Marvel's greatest romance.

Speaker 1 (02:57:09):
Ah that's do you think that that's cute?

Speaker 2 (02:57:11):
Yes? I agree, although I if you go off duo
as I think Spider Man and Human Torture higher. Yeah,
but it's interesting because I think that Luke Cage and
Iron Fist are one of those dues that they only
work together. I agree, they're more probably kind of like
we make the argument where we feel that Wonder Woman
is stronger in the Justice League and Katain America is
stronger when he's in the Avengers tale instead of a
solo tale. I agree on both these. I think none

(02:57:33):
of their solo tales match the power of their together tales.

Speaker 1 (02:57:37):
They're also unintentionally but fascinatingly two of those characters that
make up a whole version when they're together, like Sherlock
and Hulk and Watson. Yeah. Also, this issue is probably
pretty important for where it just stands in the history
of Misty Knight and Danny Rand. People who only know
them for the Netflix shows might not know that, you know,
Misty and Danny actually have a really miss character relationship.

(02:58:02):
They get it. They kind of get engaged for a bit.

Speaker 2 (02:58:05):
She's dated both of them, Yeah, she dded Luke and Iron, and.

Speaker 3 (02:58:09):
She's much more of Danny's I think of her more
as Danny's.

Speaker 2 (02:58:11):
Misty and Danny are together, yeah yeah in most of
the comic yes.

Speaker 1 (02:58:15):
Yeah, you know, and if this is sort of they're
all their first big outing together, I think that's interesting.

Speaker 2 (02:58:21):
You know why Danny is so attracted to Misty because
she's got a sweet fro. No, because she's basically girl
Luke Cage. She really is.

Speaker 1 (02:58:30):
Because she has a bonic arm. So they both have
crazy arms. Yep, oh, he's an arm fetish.

Speaker 2 (02:58:35):
There it is.

Speaker 3 (02:58:37):
That's I didn't think about it that way. That's very fascinating.

Speaker 1 (02:58:40):
I mean, her and Luke are very similar, and that
was probably due to the lack of diverse African American
characters that came out of the Silver Age of Marble.
But you know that when you look at the implication
for Danny as a character, it's very interesting. You know.

Speaker 2 (02:58:54):
It reminds me this Luke and Misty, and I mean
Danny and Misty and Dan and Luke remind me of
There's that Flight of the Concord song where Jermaine sings
a song to Bratt and at one party goes.

Speaker 1 (02:59:06):
Ooh if one of us would lady and I was
your man, I was your man, and we'd be something like.
I think that where trying to help Brat get his
confidence back. Yeah, and he basically turns the song into
how he's gonna kiss Bratt.

Speaker 2 (02:59:17):
Yeah, I think that of Danny and Luke, although Danny
is definitely the lady in that in that situation, but
I think that I think they would date if one
of them was a lady. And that's that's Misty at
her base call Misty l Night is a great character.
I don't mean it to mean anything about that character,

(02:59:38):
but when you look at her objectively, especially back for creation,
he's basically girl who cage look.

Speaker 1 (02:59:44):
And we've had a lot of there's a lot of
female characters that were only created to be female versions
of male characters that have surpassed them, and that doesn't
change the truth of their origin, you know, we don't.
She's become a much better character in modern times. Yes,
And I think especially with the TV show, Oh She's
great the T show. If anyone wants to request a
Flight of the Concords episode that was at GHL podcasts.

(03:00:05):
If one of us was a lady, one of us
is and one of us talking into a microphone.

Speaker 3 (03:00:10):
Jason would mostly just sing the songs.

Speaker 2 (03:00:11):
I would sing a lot. So if you like the city,
I want a talent show singing a Flight of the
Concord song.

Speaker 1 (03:00:18):
Once I knew that about you, you know, it was
a business time. The classic yep, classic one. I lays
go to our number three, Ashley, how about that that
is the third number on the splitt explain one of
the numbers. Well, you really threw me to the walls
like I was Danny Rand's mom with number five. So
I'm just trying to tread water here until the door
is to cut line open up again.

Speaker 4 (03:00:39):
All right?

Speaker 2 (03:00:40):
My number three choice is a recent story or recent
recent more than the other ones I've been talking about.
The Restless list is going to be very modern because
Iron Fist does not have a lot of great stories
pre two thousand.

Speaker 1 (03:00:54):
I hate to say it, but you mean where all
he was doing was running around punching people with no
emotional depth basically, or just it's a perfectly fine way
to write.

Speaker 2 (03:01:01):
I'm getting paychecks with Luke. Basically. There's a Heroes for
Higher series that was in the nineties. That's pretty good.

Speaker 1 (03:01:06):
Also, Luke really steals the thunder when he went to
collect money from doctor Doom and said give me my money, honey.

Speaker 3 (03:01:16):
And Danny's just not that cool man.

Speaker 2 (03:01:17):
I am Doom.

Speaker 4 (03:01:19):
What do you?

Speaker 2 (03:01:21):
Why are you here? I'm hearing my money, bitch. Well,
we just got an explicit day. You can say, you
can say that word on network television. It's all good.

Speaker 3 (03:01:31):
We're on network television.

Speaker 2 (03:01:33):
Wow, we are so the most recent stories and does
not have Doctor Doom in it, but it is bad.
It is written by Dwayne Swarzinsky and it follows It's
the story that immediately follows the Matt fraction Ed Brew
Breaker run on the series. Now it's called The Mortal
Iron Fist, and the reason why it's called that is
because one day, while studying the Book of the Iron Fist,
Danny notices something. Every single Iron Fist except for his

(03:01:57):
immediate present predecessor Orson, has has died at the age
of thirty three. And right out of that discovery, Luke,
Colleen and Misty entered the room wishing him a happy birthday,
a happy thirty third birthday story yes, And soon afterward
he's attacked by a servant of chin Lin and defeated easily,
and he claims that this chin Lin has claimed that

(03:02:19):
he has killed every Iron Fist previously, and it's all
in an act to try to get to the dragon
that benefits that gives kun Lun and every Iron Fist
its power. This storyline also has the reveal of what
is the eighth city of Heaven. Now, if you're like,
what does that mean?

Speaker 3 (03:02:36):
In what does that mean?

Speaker 2 (03:02:37):
In Iron Fist lore, kun Lun is one of the
seven Cities of Heaven mystical cities that are all connected
to Earth mystical cities that all focus chi around a
different body part or a different style iron fists. But
one of those cities, and it had been rumored in
previous stories that there was an eighth city. This storyline
reveals the eighth city. It's actually a prison city.

Speaker 1 (03:02:59):
Can I tell you a fun fact about the number eight?

Speaker 2 (03:03:02):
Okay? In Uch the actual number eight, the eighth.

Speaker 1 (03:03:06):
The actual number eight, Okay, So in Eastern mysticism and numerology,
eight is a very lucky number. If you're reading The
New Superman or The Superman of China's storyline, his s
shield was originally inside an octagon because the octagon is
eight sided and it I believe it has to do
with the full balance of your chi and achieving your

(03:03:28):
full potential. So that might have been why they decided
to expand it to eight. But that's just a fun
fact I know about the number eight.

Speaker 2 (03:03:34):
Yeah, but that doesn't really jibe with the eighth city
being a prison zone.

Speaker 1 (03:03:37):
No, but that might be why they decided, oh, let's
do eight instead of because you know lucky number seven,
that's a very Western concentration.

Speaker 2 (03:03:43):
Well, for me, the reason why I put the story
is my number three is because I think it was
a great idea that Dwayne Swernsky realized that there was
no way he was going to beat the Matt fraction
at Brubaker Run. So what he did is he expanded
on a twist in the run by being like, Oh,
my story is going to be about the eighth of Heaven.
And I like the idea of a hero facing his

(03:04:04):
mortality that he turns thirty three and he's like, oh crap,
this is the last year of my life? What do
I do about that? Now? I want to ask you ashually,
now do you think the and I just told you
the idea of this story. Does this sound interesting?

Speaker 3 (03:04:17):
Or I've read this story, you've read the story.

Speaker 2 (03:04:19):
What do you think about the story?

Speaker 3 (03:04:20):
I actually think.

Speaker 1 (03:04:23):
I don't know if it might be my favorite iron
Fist interesting. I really like this story. It's very sweet,
it's very bittersweet. We don't get to see a lot
of birthdays in comic book storytelling. No, because it dates
your characters, because we exist in this weird sort of
Simpson's continuity where everyone is a certain age for so long,
and I'm not advocating for every character to have a

(03:04:44):
birthday story every year, so you know, don't tweet me.
But I think it's By the way, you can find
the don't at Me shirt at the My Gentleman t
Spring story, yes, which you can get linked through Geekister
for lesson dot com if you click on t shirts.

Speaker 2 (03:04:58):
Yeah, throw that out there.

Speaker 3 (03:05:01):
Yes it is.

Speaker 1 (03:05:03):
But I think as a device it can be used
very well, and I think as a framing device here,
I think it's really sweet.

Speaker 3 (03:05:10):
I also another one I also really like.

Speaker 1 (03:05:12):
Another birthday story I like is the beginning of the
Teen Titans Rebirth where Damien turns thirteen. Oh yeah, I
don't like David.

Speaker 3 (03:05:20):
I think that's a good framing advice.

Speaker 2 (03:05:22):
Let's not unless I derail this Iron Fist episode with
a Damian Wayne die I'm talking about Tim Drake. If
you will, no, please don't.

Speaker 1 (03:05:28):
I do like this story a lot, and I think
it's a clever way to leave your mark on a
character in the wake of a really monumental run. Yeah, yeah,
it's a great run. So let's go to my number two,
not number one, but like almost as good. No, it
might be kind of weird that my number two is
called the Last Iron Fist story.

Speaker 3 (03:05:49):
That is really weird. Jason's why have you done this too?

Speaker 2 (03:05:53):
But this is the story that made Iron Fist like
green Lantern And you might be like, what, but this
is the story. This is the beginning of the ed
Brew Baker Matt Fraction run where it is revealed for
the very first time that there are other Iron Fists
besides Danny, that it is a lineage that has passed
on generation to generation degeneration.

Speaker 1 (03:06:13):
See, I didn't realize that that was a modern construct
until you told me that quite recently.

Speaker 2 (03:06:17):
It is a monocrossic. It did not exist before that storyline.

Speaker 3 (03:06:20):
For a long time, it was just Danny.

Speaker 2 (03:06:22):
This is Danny.

Speaker 1 (03:06:22):
That was it.

Speaker 2 (03:06:23):
That's it.

Speaker 1 (03:06:23):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (03:06:24):
Yeah, can you imagine. So Danny meets his predecessor Orson Randall,
who has been on the run for many years, and
after accidentally killing another one of the Immortal Weapons or
I explained what it is and fleeing the city of
Kun lun with the Book of the Iron Fists, which
is basically the Iron Fist Bible. It tells you like, wow,
this is how you wash behind your ears, and this
is how you do your chief for your arm and

(03:06:44):
and always always listen to Flight of the Concords. But
basically he fled the city of kun Land because he
suffered trauma during the First World War. And you find
out that basically it flips everything about iron fist, and
really it's the same as Green Lantern with the Green
Lantern power core, where it's one of those things where like, man,

(03:07:05):
how did it take somebody twenty how did it take
thirty years to come up with this? Like this seems like,
you know, think about it a little bit and boom
there it is. Yeah, like that there would be other
colored lanterns, and the fact that there would be other
iron fists, the fact that there would be other immortal
weapons like iron fist. I'm actually surprised that actually they
weren't all iron. Something that they weren't all iron fist,

(03:07:27):
iron foot, iron staff, iron sword.

Speaker 3 (03:07:30):
Iron shoulder blade, you.

Speaker 2 (03:07:31):
Know something like that iron elbow, you know, iron.

Speaker 3 (03:07:34):
Coozy, iron turtleshell.

Speaker 2 (03:07:37):
Yeah, I just with that, but Also, this has a
really cool thing of it has an iron Fist Arson
Randall shooting iron Fist chi bullets through pistols, which I
think is the coolest visual of all time.

Speaker 3 (03:07:48):
That is really cool.

Speaker 2 (03:07:50):
This actually really was my gateway into loving an Iron Fist,
and because of this run, I went back and reread
past Iron Fist and loved Danny rand It's this storyline
called the Last Ironfift Story.

Speaker 1 (03:08:02):
If you if you don't remember, it's okay, But I'm
just curious. Was there something that in particular that inspired
you to pick up this Iron Fift story when you did, Like.

Speaker 3 (03:08:10):
Had you seen it talked about?

Speaker 2 (03:08:12):
I'd seen it talked about online where everybody was talking
about how good it was. Yeah, I didn't read it
until trade. Of course I didn't read it by any issue,
but that I remember everybody talking about it. I want
to ask you, Ashley, so this was a huge retcon
to Iron Fish. Yeah? Do you like generally? Do you
like big retcons to establish characters or not big redcons
to established characters? Because Green Lantern got a big one.

(03:08:35):
I'm trying to think of some other characters. Wonder when
all of.

Speaker 1 (03:08:38):
Them Batman, you know it's tough. You know, when characters
are around for more than about ten years, you get
into ret coon territory, and the minute you invite other
creative teams on it, you get into ret coon territory.
And there are some wonderful retcons. I think this one,
for example, great one is so good. I also, I'm

(03:09:00):
a big mythology person. I love to obsess on things
and lot as much as I can about them, and
this to me really brings in a mythology that if
you're going to base something out of an Eastern magical tradition,
I think it deserves and you know the thing about
the dragon like, that's a good step in that direction,
but flushing it out more like this is fascinating. Overall,

(03:09:20):
I tend to say I don't want any red cons
because when you get a character like Black Canary who
gets all these retcons that are not needed all over
the place, it gets really frustrating.

Speaker 2 (03:09:31):
Although some retcons are good because they fixed past inconsistency.

Speaker 1 (03:09:35):
Yeah, so I think you have to take the good
with the bad, and I think in this case, Danny
Rand was very fortunate to get the retcon that it
could have been so much worse.

Speaker 2 (03:09:44):
Well, Edvery Bacon was writing this at the same time
that he's writing Winter Soldier.

Speaker 1 (03:09:48):
Ah, God bless and maybe the best, maybe the best
retcon of all time Winter Soldier.

Speaker 2 (03:09:55):
And is Winter Soldier is not really a ret coon now,
but because Winter Soldiers does not exist as a character
before that storyline.

Speaker 3 (03:10:01):
No, that's true, but it's kind of a retcon.

Speaker 1 (03:10:05):
It's a resetting of expectations, right, because the expectation was
You're never going to bring Bucky Barnes back. He's a
character who's always going to be dead, and brew Baker
did it and made him more interesting than America. So
maybe not maybe not a record in the traditional sense,
but an update certainly. Yeah, so softy as soft They're fine.

Speaker 2 (03:10:29):
All right. So now we're going to move on to
h one number Ashley.

Speaker 1 (03:10:33):
Jason's literally holding his finger up at me as if
I could have forgotten we're having number five obviously to.

Speaker 2 (03:10:40):
Pod Save America. Why do you keep doing because I
don't know if you know a podcast.

Speaker 1 (03:10:46):
I didn't know if that was a Pod Save America
joke that I was not privy to. We are, of
course at number one, the best, not the last, is
this one called the best Iron Fist story.

Speaker 2 (03:10:58):
Well, in my opinion of this, no, this one is
called the Seven Capital Cities of Heaven, or as I
like to call it, Iron Fist Mortal Combat.

Speaker 3 (03:11:07):
I know this one too, more to combat the moment
and then or is that the other fighting.

Speaker 2 (03:11:16):
Game street Fighter, same thing, Raal Julia's last movie, Thank
you very much. Look he deserved better than that. Look
here's here's a crazy thing I can. I can quote
you the Street Fighter movie. You want to know why
because perhaps watched it one hundred times. No, actually I didn't.
I've only watched it like three or four times. Maybe.

Speaker 1 (03:11:32):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (03:11:32):
The VHS was out the local gas station where we're
in a videos and I watched it. But Rale Julia says,
what I think is a genius piece of dialogue and
a really bad movie. And I know this has nothing
to do with Iron Fish. Go with us. So part
of the movie is about chun Lee getting to oh god,
what's his name the colonel that rab Julia flies, I
can't remember. Sure he's the big colonel guy. Sure anyways,

(03:11:56):
roll Julie completely miscasts with that part. But anyways, so
Chunley gets there and and attacks him, and you're like
He's like, I'm here to kill you, go to kill
my village blah blah blah blah blah. And she's like,
you remember, and he goes for you. That was the
most important day of your life. For me, it was
just another day. And I was like, whoa that is like,

(03:12:19):
talk about a mic drop for a villain. Damn, that
is cold. I don't want cold mofo.

Speaker 3 (03:12:24):
But she beats him right.

Speaker 2 (03:12:26):
Uh No, I don't remember. I think John Clone Vendam
punches him the face and that's the end of the movie.
Speaking of stuff that's not John Cla Vendam, let's talk
about a kung food tournament that has to do with
iron fists. Yeah, I know this one. Yes, this is great.
This is I think the best iron fist story of
all time is again it's Iron Fist Mobile Commut. So
it's all about the Kung Fuo Tournament that occurs every
eighty eight years and is held to determine which mystical

(03:12:48):
city would appear on Earth every decade. Each city's immortal
weapon is required to participate. This is where Danny learns
about the other weapons the other cities, and only one
of them at a time can touch Earth. During the turn,
Danny meets his six mystical counterparts and he loses the
first round of the tournament, but he discovers a secret
doorway between Earth and Cunlan that allows passage without the

(03:13:09):
mystical connection every decade. This is everything you want and
need in an Iron Fist story because it's the best
Iron Fist story because it has a fistfight, it goes crazy,
it expands the mythology, it's about mysticism, and it's epic
as hell. Drawn by David Aha, who is a genius artist.

Speaker 3 (03:13:28):
Love him.

Speaker 2 (03:13:29):
Uh, you have read this. What do you think about
this storyline?

Speaker 1 (03:13:32):
I think it's great and I think you don't.

Speaker 2 (03:13:34):
Think it's the best because you like number three the best.

Speaker 1 (03:13:37):
Yeah, but that story is more sentimental, which is what
I like about it. Danny doesn't get a lot of
moments to be soft and have feeling.

Speaker 2 (03:13:43):
This true. The story is very much about Danny. This
story is about the world. Yeah, this story is truly
what an Iron Fist movie should be. H and what
the first season of this effing show should have been
this No, No, I agree with you on that. I
think season one of Iron Fish should have been the
last Iron fish story and to the one that's about
to come out should be just built to this.

Speaker 1 (03:14:03):
Yeah, it's very cinematic. It's kind of like.

Speaker 2 (03:14:06):
Or this could be like what the Second Defenders could
be about.

Speaker 1 (03:14:09):
Yeah, yeah, but it's kind of like Birthright is maybe
not the best Superman story, but Birthright is a really easy,
accessible Superman and this is this is sort of that
version for Iron Kiss. Like there are better stories I
think about Danny Ray and the character, but like, this
story is epic, and I think this is I understand

(03:14:29):
why you would put this at the top of your list.
Having read this, you know you cast Donny yan Inett
and Daniel Wu and every.

Speaker 2 (03:14:39):
Other great again, by the way, would make an he's
a little old now who cares, But he would make
an amazing Danny Wren.

Speaker 1 (03:14:47):
He'd be great. He'd be so good at it. Yeah,
he's he has a little so good because they want him.
They want Danny to be younger per the Netflix show. Well,
Danny needs to be a great thunderer. Oh yeah, he
would be a great thunder be a great steel serpent. Yeah. Oh,
he'd be a great steel serpent. Yeah. Yeah, this story's
really cool. Do you think this is where they got

(03:15:08):
the idea in Green Arrow to do the different weapons clans.

Speaker 3 (03:15:13):
Yes, yes, that just occurred to me. I was like,
they're very similar.

Speaker 2 (03:15:18):
Well, because the weapon clans didn't happen until about two
thousand and thirteen, yeah later, And this story is somewhere
around two thousands e eleven. No, no, this is like
two thousand and five or fourish is when this story. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
this story is over a decade old. Now, whoa, which
is crazy old? Ten years so old?

Speaker 1 (03:15:40):
Yeap.

Speaker 3 (03:15:41):
So there you go.

Speaker 2 (03:15:41):
That is my list. That is the end of the list,
just to go for the recommended reading for these stories.
They a lot of these stories are out of print.
But what they've done is my one, my one, and
my two are collected in the same collection collection. Yeah,
it's there's iron face to have a collection number one,
and then my numbers three is collected in Iron Epic

(03:16:02):
collection number three. Yes, number four is very hard to find,
but number five is in an epic premiere. So those
are be the choices. That'll be the three recommended readings
My one, my two, my three, and my five.

Speaker 1 (03:16:12):
Yes, and you can get all of those at geek
history Lesson dot com. Slash recommended reading. We have these
amazing little widgets and you click on those and you
purchase the story of your choice. A little bit of
support comes back our way to help us feed the
dragon who lives beneath the Mind University empowers everything.

Speaker 3 (03:16:26):
That we do here.

Speaker 2 (03:16:27):
I'd like you we have a dragon under there.

Speaker 1 (03:16:29):
We do a new retcon and thank you so much.
Thanks to the assistance of a bunch of our tas,
we now have the full list. Yeah, it's been up
there in a little while now, so you can find
all of our recommended reading ever. All right, so this
can be a little bit shorter than a normal episode,
but it's we've had some longer ones recently. That's just fine.

Speaker 2 (03:16:45):
Oh yeah, we've had some hour and a half ones recently.
Let's go into the last section of the podcast, the
Honor Roll.

Speaker 1 (03:16:51):
Yeah, the honor Roll is where if you are an
amazing human being who clicks over to iTunes gives us
a five sub review and writes literally anything, we'll read it.

Speaker 2 (03:16:58):
Yep, And we're getting to that. We're getting we're way
behind on these like these. The two that I'm reading
today are from March. So we're going through a list.
We're getting through it as soon as we can.

Speaker 1 (03:17:06):
And bless everyone who checks in, but please just bear
with us.

Speaker 2 (03:17:09):
Yeah, we're going through it. So whenever you read this
on iTunes and Apple podcasts, This first one comes from
Aaron Nabus, who says, I bet even Utaho listens to
Geek History Lesson. He says, Geek History Lesson is an
essential podcast for me, whether I'm grocery shopping, hiking, weightlifting,
or working on projects. Until three M hosts Stephen Strange
and Cleia I mean Jason him In and Nash of

(03:17:31):
Victoria Robinson do an amazing job each episode with the
amount of research they do factor in their quirky yet
very endearing way of teaching. And I bet even Utah
the Watcher can't remain impartial and is also an avid listener. Hmm, Utah,
I'd like to request a lesson on him. Thanks for
consistently keeping me informed, entertained, and keep on keep up
the good work. Aaron Nabis is we know him the

(03:17:53):
whole h. So here I was going to say, yeah,
he has The Hall h Show is a great podcast
you should go listen to that.

Speaker 1 (03:17:58):
They very generously had us on and we'll hopefully have
us on in future.

Speaker 2 (03:18:01):
Great idea actually for an episode is I don't even
I know. We've complained that several times about how to
say that name. Utao wat Wat was probably watching I
don't know. That's actually a great idea for a lesson.
If you want to teach a baby, we'll do it.
The best person's going to enter the honor roll is
US Israel, who says this podcast is awesome.

Speaker 1 (03:18:20):
They say this podcast is great to listen to while
studying or on a long bus ride. You won't find
a better superhero history podcast. So US Israel and Aaron Nabus,
thank you so much you joined the honor roll. There
are bagels in.

Speaker 2 (03:18:31):
The fridge, and do not touch the Popular Mechanics magazine
in the corner of the teacher's lounge. That is mister Johnson's.
He is reading it and he put he folded the
pages when he got to you know the thing about
cold fusion. Do not ruin that for mister Johnson.

Speaker 1 (03:18:47):
What does mister Johnson teach again? What does mister Johnson
teach again?

Speaker 2 (03:18:51):
Home?

Speaker 1 (03:18:51):
Meck great, I love that we are defined gender stereotypes.
That our homemack teacher is. I'm assuming a man since
they go by mister Yep. All right, so head over
to iTunes, Apple Podcasts and listen to the show Don't Forget.
You can find us on Spotify, Soundclouds, ditch, all kinds
of places anywhere you can listen to podcasts. You can
find us over there.

Speaker 2 (03:19:12):
We have a Patreon Patreon dot com slash John and
jaw I I in. It helps keep our dragon that
we now have underneath the school alive. We feed him
with dragon kibble bits. Through your support over at the Patreon,
it keeps the podcast alive. We also give you extra
stuff liking you can watch the after show to the
Saturday Morning after show. Also, we do an extra podcast
called Geek History Lesson Extra and this week is going

(03:19:34):
to beat out. Should Iron Fist have been a movie?
We're talking about that.

Speaker 1 (03:19:39):
Yeah, Ashley Jason. Do you like Iron Fist's costume? Which
one any of them? No?

Speaker 2 (03:19:47):
Why? Which? My headdress is stupid? You think the little bit?

Speaker 1 (03:19:50):
Damn? I hate it?

Speaker 2 (03:19:51):
What would you have a wear it?

Speaker 1 (03:19:53):
I don't know. I e iron.

Speaker 2 (03:19:55):
I have my favorite Iron Fist costume over here in
the corner. It is from the Edwary Baker Matter Fact
and Run.

Speaker 3 (03:20:00):
I've never met an iron Fist costume.

Speaker 2 (03:20:02):
I liked how do you talk to an iron Fist
consume with.

Speaker 1 (03:20:07):
A lot of talking down my nose. I've quite a
long nose to feel like it gives me an air
of superiority. I don't know, I get it's just a
stylized ninja suit. I don't know if I want it
to look more like a gee. But I just don't
think it's very impressive. But I know you have a
lot of feelings about which Iron Fist costumes are good

(03:20:28):
and bad? Yes, which ones do you not like? The
one where it's white is stupid? Why don't you like
the white gold?

Speaker 2 (03:20:34):
It doesn't look it looks Look he's a gritty character
on the streets of New York. He's gonna get that uniform. So,
but you like the green I love the green. I
actually kind of sort of like the new track suit
sort of thing that they've given him. They've sort of
given him Maybe.

Speaker 3 (03:20:50):
I like the tracks they sort of a tracksuit can stay.

Speaker 2 (03:20:52):
Yeah, it's kind of a combination of the Daniel Daniel
David Aha costume with like stripes and stuff like that.
I like that costume, But the David Aha costume where
they just make it simply, what do you call martial
arts uniform? I forget a gee gee.

Speaker 1 (03:21:07):
That's what it's called in karate. I'm sure it's different.
They literally just make it a green tight gee.

Speaker 2 (03:21:11):
That's it. But the seventies one with the big collar
in the chest, some weird shoulder blade, it's.

Speaker 1 (03:21:18):
Mainly going on.

Speaker 2 (03:21:19):
It's look, it's a it's a thing of the past.
I hated it when Marshall Manhunter had it as well.
When you have the big collar that furs up, yeah,
it looks. It only works on doctor Strange.

Speaker 1 (03:21:28):
I mean, how many characters have suffered a bad caller Nightwing?
Lots of them.

Speaker 2 (03:21:33):
Now he pulls it off, does he?

Speaker 1 (03:21:35):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (03:21:36):
He did?

Speaker 1 (03:21:36):
Does he?

Speaker 4 (03:21:37):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (03:21:37):
He is.

Speaker 3 (03:21:38):
If you are pro disco Wing, let us know on Twitter.

Speaker 2 (03:21:41):
Yeah, all right, I think that's good enough for this
podcast of ion Fist. I have been Jason the dragon Inmate.
I have been Ashley, Victoria Robinson and Professor Jason. Will
you please dismiss the class? This class is dismiss. I'm
singing a song. This is a callback back to the
flat of the good joke.

Speaker 1 (03:22:04):
The X Men are dedicated to protecting mankind, even those
who hate and fear.

Speaker 2 (03:22:09):
That that's right, and we are going to determine today
the top five X Men stories because your Geek History
Lesson is now in session. Hello, and welcome to Geek
History Lesson. I am Jason Homo superior Inman.

Speaker 1 (03:22:23):
I am Ashley Victoria Robinson. Welcome to the Mind University
because you have stumbled onto the podcast where we take
one character construct or mutant team from popular culture and
teach you everything you need to know about them in
about an hour. Except this week we're doing one of
our classic list episodes. Jason, what are we talking about
this week?

Speaker 2 (03:22:42):
X Men Stories?

Speaker 1 (03:22:43):
Yes, I can't wait to dive into the Dark Angel saga.
Everyone's favorite the Dark Angel saga. Yeah, twenty eleven bad,
it's an alternate reality age of Apocalypse retelling of the
Dark phoedix saga.

Speaker 2 (03:22:53):
Oh that's from X Force, right, Yeah it's bad. Yeah,
I get that's all good.

Speaker 3 (03:22:58):
That's cool. Yeah, that's the boiler alert. It's not on
our life.

Speaker 2 (03:23:01):
This list, of course, is not an objective list. As
we say, this is our favorites, the ones that connect
to the most with us and ones that we think
you should really check out. I can guarantee you right now,
nobody is going to predict my number one at all.
I've been hinting at Ashley for a while that she
would never be able to guess my number one. But
we're talking about this because there's a little movie that

(03:23:22):
came out that very few people saw.

Speaker 1 (03:23:25):
According to Box Office, Dark Fei.

Speaker 2 (03:23:28):
Which is about a bunch of Homo Superior characters yelling
Jeane because Gene is blowing stuff up.

Speaker 3 (03:23:33):
Yeah again.

Speaker 2 (03:23:35):
Now, actually, before we jump into our best x Men stories,
our top five x Men stories according to us, what
is your connection to X Men? Actually? Are they one
of your favorites one of your least favorites? How do
you feel about this?

Speaker 1 (03:23:47):
For a long time, X Men were the only Marvel
book I read, oh really like for probably like maybe
eighteen years.

Speaker 2 (03:23:54):
They were they the first They were the first Marvel
comic you ever read too, Yes, okay, do you remember
what was?

Speaker 5 (03:24:00):
No?

Speaker 1 (03:24:01):
Okay, I don't. I like many people got in through
the nineties cartoon. Although X Men Evolution is my X
Men cartoon love, we do have a request to teach
the history of the X Men cartoons, which would kind
of be like our Pixar It would be like a
little more real world based. Sure, perhaps we'll get to that.
We probably have to divide that pers series.

Speaker 2 (03:24:22):
I think. I think so a fun documentary series. But
if that's something you guys think sounds cool, let us
know it might be something we could do, like Crisis Club. Yeah,
where could they where coul they Let us know.

Speaker 1 (03:24:31):
Oh, you can do that at Facebook dot com, slash gee,
kiss Lesson, geekistory lesson dot com, on Twitter, at GHL
podcast or if you're a patron, you know, there's a
bunch of ways that you can contact us there with
those those are the best ways to be in.

Speaker 2 (03:24:43):
Touch with that'd be an interesting thing to conquer over
a year, similar to our book club stuff. Yeah. Yeah,
like once a month we check in, like what's the
next X Men cartoon?

Speaker 1 (03:24:51):
Mm hmm. So the X Men cartoons were my first
in Nightcrawler and Wolverine are my X Men loves.

Speaker 3 (03:24:58):
I love them so much.

Speaker 1 (03:25:00):
And then I was pretty young when the first couple
X Men movies came out, so they've always been a
big part of my life. And they were the first
and like I said, for a while, the only Marvel
comics I read regularly.

Speaker 2 (03:25:11):
Sure, how about you. I first got into X Men
right before the Giant Age of Apocalypse storyline. The X
Men were fine to me. I enjoyed them. I actually
did have a subscription to Uncanny X Men for quite
a while when it was like the big it was
post Age of Apocalypse pre onslought, when it was Joe

(03:25:32):
Mondera and scottland Dell writing, which I think, to me
is like key X Men, like it's perfect, like right
in there x Men. And you know, the X Men
are a group of characters that I love sometimes and
then I hate sometimes, and then I love sometimes and
then I hate sometimes. I've never consistently loved the X Men.

(03:25:53):
I've always fallen out of love with them, and then
I've re got back into them, and then I've fallen
in love with them, and then i hate them again.
So I guess just like teenagers. Yeah, in a lot
of ways. Yeah, there you go. You know, I would
not call X Men my favorite Marvel thing, but I
do think there is something compelling to those stories, and
we might talk some more about that in our g
Caitus and Extra. There's some stuff I want to get

(03:26:13):
into specifically about the X Men, but that's not here.

Speaker 3 (03:26:17):
Can I ask you a quick question?

Speaker 1 (03:26:18):
Sure, if people just aren't familiar, if they're newer listeners,
Who are some of your favorite X Men characters?

Speaker 2 (03:26:23):
Cyclops? Cyclops is my favorite X Men character. I love Cable,
I love X Man. Just looking at the action face, Yes,
I have an X Man. I don't have that many
X mex fiars. I do like Magneto, I like Charles Xavier,
I like Mystique. Thinks she's really cool. You know, I

(03:26:47):
don't know. I'm very much into the Summer's clan.

Speaker 1 (03:26:49):
Yeah, just so people kind of have maybe a point
of view of where our opinions. Ayeah, you're Nightcrawler right, yeah,
all the way. Yeah, that's why he's one of ze
on the character voices I do and just show I
would be careful about Nightcrawler because if there's a special
friend that always calls in every time that Nightcrawler appears, Yeah,
Nightcrawler might stay in bed for most of this episode.

Speaker 3 (03:27:08):
Maybe he'll pop up for the action show.

Speaker 2 (03:27:10):
Yes, our special friend Tex Willerman has a sixth sense
when Nightcrawler appears, and he may show up. And I
don't think this is a proper text. Willerman.

Speaker 1 (03:27:19):
One of my goals for down the line is to
have a tex Willerman Pigley Wiggly T shirt made.

Speaker 2 (03:27:26):
Wiggly Yes, all right, let's drop into this list. Of course,
we're gonna do it from five to one. Again, this
is not objective. This is our favorites. These are ones
that we think are best. So there's no right, there's
no wrong. Ashley, what's your number five?

Speaker 1 (03:27:40):
My number five is a single issue. All the rest
of mine are runs or they are collections.

Speaker 2 (03:27:46):
Minor all runs. I don't think I have a single issue.

Speaker 3 (03:27:48):
This is a single issue. It is from nineteen sixty three.

Speaker 1 (03:27:51):
It is the X Men number.

Speaker 2 (03:27:54):
One on Canny x Men number one?

Speaker 1 (03:27:56):
Is it x Men one called the x Men number one?
It's the original first time intro to X Men. And
I don't generally include in these lists a lot of
their og original origin story because I think down the
way it gets revisited or re examined in a better way.
But the X Men are one of the only teams

(03:28:18):
where their origin is basically the same and baked in stone.
Even when we see this origin revisited in something like
All New X Men, and that Brian Michael bendis kind
of launched the Marvel now Wave with it's all the
same players, it's all the same beats, and everything that
we love from the movies is right here in this

(03:28:39):
first issue. And if you examine something like Avengers number one,
which Jason has read ad nauseuma we've talked about on
the podcast before, there's a lot of changes that the
Avengers undergo, including the Ultimate Universe to get to the
versions that we love and we're familiar with cinematically.

Speaker 3 (03:28:53):
But the X Men number one, it's all there.

Speaker 1 (03:28:57):
Professor X is there, Cyclops, beast Iceman, an Angel, and
Jean Gray, who is Marvel Girl at the time in
Magneto and Magneto is set up as their villain. Also
Marvel Girl. My favorite Jean Gray costume. It's so cute.

Speaker 2 (03:29:10):
I love you. Like it where they hide her head,
I like it.

Speaker 1 (03:29:13):
I like it with her really big dumb I'm acting
it out and podcasting a famously visual medium with the
Domino mass it has the really high points and the
dress like for me, it's a perfect sixties comic book
girl costume.

Speaker 2 (03:29:26):
That costume comes later, by the way, it's not in
that first issue.

Speaker 3 (03:29:30):
Oh, is this the one where her head is completely covered?

Speaker 1 (03:29:31):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (03:29:32):
Oh, I think of Yes, it's okay. That costume is great.
That you're talking about the green and yellow costumes. She
has the point I thought that was the original, but
you're right. It actually number one. They're all in the
blue and yellow. You all have those cows like cyclops,
which it's a little weird for her, but I don't know.
That's why I was asking. I was like, oh, you
like the cow.

Speaker 1 (03:29:48):
Sorry, my mistake. I also saw a picture of that
very recently. I also really like this first issue because
when you go and revisit, you can find it online.
You can find out Marvel and Limited. This is a
very easy issue to get your hands. Even if your
hands a reading copy. You can get like a reading
copy of this for a fairly reasonable price. Okay, if
you want a good copy of it, it's very expensive,

(03:30:08):
but you can get a reading copy for a decent price.
Even in this first issue, you get the civil rights allegory.
It's baked in here. Maybe the Malcolm X doctor Martin
Luther King junior analysis is something that gets fully formed
a little bit later, but you can see how much
of the social justice undertones are here. And what I

(03:30:31):
really admire about this team is this is nowhere near
the first copy book team ever to happen Justice League,
it happened by this just Society Point teen Titans is
just around the corner. Even in those weird cowls. All
of these characters are pretty unique, and their powers aren't
necessarily complimentary, Like we don't have a fire and Ice,

(03:30:51):
we just have Iceman. They all do something very different.
You have your muscle, you have your intellect, you have
your leader, you have your stealth. And even though we
don't and have like you think of maybe Storm, Nightcrawler,
Kitty Bride, and Wolverine as being integral members of the
X Men, their inclusion and every X Men team going
forward is based off of this. I think this is
one of the most fully formed first issues in intros

(03:31:15):
to a super team, so I wanted to include it
in my list.

Speaker 2 (03:31:17):
Interesting.

Speaker 1 (03:31:18):
Yeah, so, Jason, what is your number five?

Speaker 2 (03:31:22):
My number five is the updated version of what you
just say.

Speaker 3 (03:31:26):
Look at that.

Speaker 2 (03:31:27):
Mine is Ultimate x Men number one through six, the
storyline called the Tomorrow People. Now in the year two thousand,
the X Men titles were very impossible to read and
they were so much continuity, so of course Marvel brought
in the great DC writer Grant Morrison to reboot the series,
but at the same time, they decided to reboot another

(03:31:49):
X Men series in this new universe called the Ultimate Universe,
which was basically like what if the X Men were
created in the two thousands, And this was written by
Mark Miller, and I believe it was drawn by the
Cubert brothers. I think they traded off. Now this has
the same stuff. It has the Mutants being recruited. I
believe the first issue is about recruiting Iceman, and it's

(03:32:10):
about the team fighting Magneto and his brotherhood of Mutants. Now,
the interesting thing about this is that the entire team
has black and yellow costumes inspired by the movie. Because
it's post two thousand. Wolverine shows up the very end,
and it's a mix of the team. It's not the
classic team, but the classic team are all there. Now.
The interesting thing about that is that this is all updated.

(03:32:35):
And also this book is a little meaner, which I
like because I think the X Men book should be
a little meaner, especially since they're dealing with social issues
and with racism and bigots and stuff like that. Like
that's a little bit, you know, stronger than normal comic
book I'm Gonna Punch a Thief in the face. There

(03:32:57):
there are moments where Jean Gray actually activates her love
relationship with Wolverine. She hops into bed, Magneto terrorizes President Bush,
and it is President Bush on the White House lawn.
Magneto's invasion is actually successful. But the reason why I
really dig this is because this comes off like an
X Men movie, and it feels like the most streamlined

(03:33:17):
version of The X Men I ever could have come
up with, and that's why I was really attracted this.
Wolverine joins the X Men in this to assassinate Charles Xavier.
He is a plant by Magneto. And then when Wolverine
and Jean Gray sleep together, Cyclops leaves the X Men

(03:33:38):
and joins the Brotherhood of Mutants. So there's all these
little turns where this feels like it is the Netflix
series of The X Men, and I think it is
really held up. And I also think that this is
one of the best entry points for anybody reading The
X Men because you do not need to know anything, and.

Speaker 1 (03:33:56):
Which is not something you can say about most X
Men stories. I mostly steeped in conginuity and nonsense. Most
of them you cannot hand to people. Yeah, yours just
you just said. And I think this one is I
love this again.

Speaker 2 (03:34:08):
I this was the comic that brought me back into
comics because I left because I had noticed women, and
I had noticed other things that had intrigued my life
more than comic books. And this was the comic where
I was like, Hey, Wolverin has a soul patch is
literally clawing the street. He's moving so fast. The first
cover Ultimate X Men is Wolverine is moving so fast

(03:34:31):
and his claws are scratching along the highway and the
sparks are flying, and you're like, wow. I was think
the Ultimate X Men logo is really really cool, and
I think most of their costumes are really really cool.
Now Mark Miller goes on to create a pretty solid
thirty issue run, and if all you read is the

(03:34:51):
first thirty issues of Mark Miller's run of this run,
it's solid.

Speaker 4 (03:34:54):
Now.

Speaker 1 (03:34:54):
Brian Kavaughan goes on Due Run, Robert Kirkman goes on
Due Run.

Speaker 2 (03:34:57):
Eh makes Bag. But the first thirty issues of Mark
Miller's run are very solid. They established Magneto as some
possible threat. Magneto is a murderer, and also this was
where the first version of Magneto is the person who
causes Charles Xavier's wheelchair problems because Magneto in this version

(03:35:18):
shoves as the first Class Jason No, first Class gets.

Speaker 1 (03:35:21):
It from this hich Jason also loves I love first Class.
But this is ultimate X Men. A lot of people
probably it is Michael Bay X Men, but I know
that that's not selling it well. But it is so
action movie X Men. It's action movie x way birthright
is that for Superman?

Speaker 2 (03:35:39):
Sure? Exactly, But there's soap operas and I think the
characters are so well. The twists and turns in this
are amazing. And also I'm going to give mad credit
to Mark Miller for making Colossus LGBTQ.

Speaker 1 (03:35:53):
Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 2 (03:35:54):
I think that's one of the best changes they made.
They they completely they because Kitty Pride is so much younger. Yeah,
so they pair off Kitty probably with Iceman because Iceman
is younger. It's weird for Colossus, who's in his twenties
to be fixated on a fourteen year old Chris Claremont.

Speaker 1 (03:36:09):
It's not like that hasn't stopped comics in the past.
Bold the entire Japanese market.

Speaker 2 (03:36:14):
Ultimate X Men. It's called The Tomorrow People. It's the
first six issues. That is my number five X Men story.

Speaker 1 (03:36:21):
I like that as a subtitle for an X Men story,
The Tomorrow People. That's very cool.

Speaker 2 (03:36:25):
All all of Mark Miller subtitles are amazing. His finale,
the finale arc of his run not without no spoilers,
called Return of the King love It.

Speaker 3 (03:36:40):
Did Mark Miller write that spider Man Max series?

Speaker 2 (03:36:45):
I mean he wrote a spider Man Max series. It's
Did he write the book called Down Amongst the Dead Men?

Speaker 3 (03:36:50):
Is that the one with all the villains? Yes, that's
interesting because.

Speaker 1 (03:36:52):
There's a Terry Dotson, there's a classically straight character who
gets an LGBT twist in that as well.

Speaker 2 (03:36:57):
Yeah, yeah, I have that question as well. Yeah, that's great.
I read it because you gave it to me. I
have no apologies. I am. I am a Mark Miller fan.
Mark Miller has no reason.

Speaker 1 (03:37:06):
Mark Miller has bad storylines, but I find generally he
pushes the medium in good ways.

Speaker 3 (03:37:13):
I agree. I would agree with that.

Speaker 2 (03:37:14):
So there you go. That's my number five. Cool, Ashley,
what's your number four?

Speaker 1 (03:37:18):
My number four comes about thirty years after my number
five smack down in kind of like the Bat Family time,
both the best and worst X Men era the nineties. Okay,
it is X Men Age of Apocalypse.

Speaker 2 (03:37:35):
All right, I am going to punt this because it
is on my list.

Speaker 1 (03:37:39):
Is it higher up? It's higher up. I could talk
about it. We can, we can pin it for then
if you want. No, it's all good, it's all good.
You can go ahead and talk about it. So X
Men Age of Apocalypse the book is truly so wonderful.
Don't let the title it shares with the movie keep
you from checking this out. It's a tire crossover. It
is it crossed is over? So the Age of Apocalypse

(03:38:03):
world encompasses X caliber Gambit in the external exter can.

Speaker 2 (03:38:08):
I try to name?

Speaker 3 (03:38:09):
Okay? Yeah, go for it.

Speaker 2 (03:38:10):
Okay, Okay, so you said X Caliber Gambit. Okay, there's
X Man, yes, Okay, there's astonishing X Men. Yes, there
is what's the other X Men? There?

Speaker 1 (03:38:20):
They both have different subtitles. Is it sensational X Men? No,
it's another a adjective. I don't know that is amazing
amazing X Men? Okay, then there's factor X yes, there is,
Oh good lord, I've forgotten them. Okay. Also Generation X yes,
Generation next, and then missing two.

Speaker 2 (03:38:41):
Oh I'm missing two. One is can you give me
a hint? So you said weapon X. Yes.

Speaker 1 (03:38:47):
The other one, it's a synonym for a weapon, starts
with an F.

Speaker 2 (03:38:52):
I mean I already said factor X.

Speaker 1 (03:38:53):
You did not say factor X. Oh, yeah, I did, okay,
factor X, And then you're missing one. I need a
hint on this.

Speaker 3 (03:38:57):
Then it also starts with an X.

Speaker 2 (03:39:00):
That doesn't not help me.

Speaker 3 (03:39:01):
It's it's a.

Speaker 1 (03:39:02):
It's a. It's a synonym for what do you call?
So right, there's the Earth, and then there's a solar system.
What's that universe? Yes? Okay, that and then there's two
one shots x Men Alpha and x Men Omega. That
book cand it?

Speaker 3 (03:39:15):
You name them all?

Speaker 2 (03:39:15):
X Men Alpha begins it and x Men Omega in
is it? And then when they go back to the
regular universe x Men Prime, we should probab explain what
the age of post rights.

Speaker 1 (03:39:23):
I'm also just if you're interested, there's an x Men
animated series two part episode that does this in very
broad strokes called One Man's Worth that came out around
the same time. So why you should read this is
because everything that's currently going on kind of deals.

Speaker 3 (03:39:43):
With this like it starts with Legion.

Speaker 1 (03:39:46):
This was the first time I'd ever met Legion, and
then I promptly forgot about him because I think he's
dumb until he had truly the worst haircut. So he's
a Professor X's son from the future. He comes back
in time because he wants to kill Magneto, but he
winds up killing Charles, and as a result, apocalypse invades

(03:40:08):
earlier ten years early, so he.

Speaker 2 (03:40:10):
Kills So he's not from the future. He's actually from
our present day and he travels. Oh well, the notes
I have and he travels back to the nineteen sixties.

Speaker 3 (03:40:21):
But in the future of that event exactly and here right.

Speaker 2 (03:40:24):
He meets Charles Xavier and Magneto in their twenties, yes,
and he tries to kill Magneto because he's like, my
dad doesn't like me, but my dad will like me
if I kill his mortal enemy.

Speaker 1 (03:40:34):
And in the fray, Charles jumps in front of the
shot and dies. And because of this, there are no
X Men. Charles never makes the X Men to fend
off the Horsemen, and so they start this new universe
slash timeline slash eight, Apocalypse takes over the world and
then the US North America. Bishop winds up getting sent

(03:40:58):
back in time to protect Professor Exie.

Speaker 2 (03:41:01):
That's an interesting a judgment re.

Speaker 1 (03:41:02):
Establish the present daytime, Yes, sort of, Okay, So Bishop,
I'm trying to like broadstrokes.

Speaker 2 (03:41:10):
This is I know, I want to get I want
to get in the weeds on this web.

Speaker 1 (03:41:14):
This just tells you this is like a classically complicated
X Men story, and it's truly one of the best
x Mens.

Speaker 2 (03:41:18):
Bishop is one of the x Men that is sent
back in time to the sixties to stop Legion, so
save Exavier from being kid exactly exactly. But he's not
sent back into the Age of pot.

Speaker 3 (03:41:29):
So he's no, he's sent back into like the prime.

Speaker 2 (03:41:32):
So when Legion kills Xavier and the timeline flips, yeah,
Bishop is the only one who remembers the old timeline.
So Bishop has to suffer through twenty years of the
Age of Apocalypse until he meets Magneto in his X Men.
And Bishop has to convince Magneto in his x Men

(03:41:55):
because in this universe, Magneto forms the x Men in
honor of Charles Yep and Magneto Mary's rogue, and there's.

Speaker 1 (03:42:01):
All it is. Yeah, talking about men who are too
old to be messing around with the winds.

Speaker 2 (03:42:06):
And Bishop has to convince Magneto to rewrite his universe,
and Magneto has a son named Charles. Yes, so but continue.
I'm sorry, I just love the Age. I'm gonna get rid,
want to go.

Speaker 1 (03:42:16):
I think that was about as far as my explanation
of this could go without totally spoiling it.

Speaker 3 (03:42:22):
It's completely amazing.

Speaker 1 (03:42:24):
This is what's interesting about Age of Apocalypse is it
kind of sets the bar for a lot of time travel,
alternate universe nonsense, Like it is, in one hand, the
very best at this kind of X Men nonsense. But
because this was so loved, so revered, and so popular,

(03:42:45):
you get so many Craddy reduxes of this. So this Earth,
the Age of Apocalypse Earth is Earth two nine to five.
It shows up in the in the twenty fifteen Secret Wars. Yes,
because what they've decided to do is that there is
an alternate world where.

Speaker 2 (03:43:02):
That actually happened and it was never uned. But in
the main continuity of the X Men. Then we have
to talk about and actually I'm just going to reveal
Angel Pocolos is my number three.

Speaker 3 (03:43:11):
Wow, okay, well four and three.

Speaker 2 (03:43:13):
That's it's my number three.

Speaker 1 (03:43:15):
The reason why it's my number three is because one,
I'm going to say it right now, this is the
height of art on the X Men. Joe Madurera, There
is Joe Moderera, Chris Boccolow, Steve Epting, Andy Kubert, Adam Kubert,
all working on X Men books at the same time.

Speaker 3 (03:43:33):
Because actually, can I read you the full list?

Speaker 2 (03:43:36):
Yeah, there's probably more. I'm probably missing Yah, Roger.

Speaker 1 (03:43:38):
Cruz, Steve Epting, Joe Maderera, Andy Kubert, Tony Daniel Salvador Laroka,
Chris Boccalo, Adam Kubert, Ken Lashley.

Speaker 3 (03:43:44):
Steve Scrous, Steve Scross.

Speaker 1 (03:43:45):
Harry Dodson, Ian Churchill, Carlos Pacheco, and Joe Bennett, which
is not counting any alternate cover artist, pin ups or colors.
That is just the pencil that is murder, Jason Rowe,
Jason name especially for the time. I mean, these are
still phenomenal. All these guys are amazing. And it's because
Jason mentioned there's like ten books that cross over. I

(03:44:07):
mean the writers too. It's Scott Libdell, Mark Waid, Fabian Niza,
John Francis Moore, Larry Hamelf, Laura Ellis, Jeff Lob, Howard Mackie,
and Terry Kamanah.

Speaker 2 (03:44:17):
Now we have to talk about the reason why this
this crossover is so huge is that this is pre Internet. Yeah,
this is almost pre I don't think I think this
might even be Wizard a little bit. I don't know,
but Wizard wasn't this five four? I thought it was, Well,
the Internet says ninety five ninety six. Oh, I thought

(03:44:39):
it was an I'm very certain it's ninety four. But anyways, whatever,
this stopped every X Men title. So what happened is
is that they had like ten X Men titles at
the time. They stopped publication of every X Men title,
and then for the next four months, these titles were
renamed like you know again, X Factor became Factor x Uncanny,

(03:45:02):
X Men became Astonishing x Men, X Men became Amazing,
x Men, Cable became x Men, and they were published
under these manners for four months, four months.

Speaker 1 (03:45:12):
Which in publication time, especially having worked in a comic
book store, is an etern Nation's huge. And they I
don't think they gave anybody warning that this was going
to happen.

Speaker 2 (03:45:21):
It was changing.

Speaker 1 (03:45:23):
This is the reason why I bought these X Men
comics was because I was like, what is going on?

Speaker 2 (03:45:27):
What is happening here?

Speaker 1 (03:45:29):
Is? This is also well before we had a new
event every month, every success, it was this was earth
I wasn't even reading like new comics at the time.
But when you do any research about this or you
listen to any of the career like, this was truly
like earth shattering.

Speaker 2 (03:45:44):
The reason why this event is still talked about today
and still in print and still in print is because
Number one, I'm gonna say right now it is I
think I don't know if we did this episode already
or not. I think we did. This is the best
Marvel crossover. It is we did, but I don't I
don't remember when anyways. And the other reason is because

(03:46:05):
this is a storyline for all the mumbo jumbo that
we talked about. It is very simple to understand because
it is Lord of the Rings with a time travel twist.
Apocalypse is saarn, yeah, and we need to get Bishop
to the time portal which is controlled by Apocalypse to
reset the timeline. So X Men can we get Bishop there?

Speaker 1 (03:46:27):
I don't know it feels epic in that way because
X Men deals in a very moral gray area, which
is what's very cool and unique about the X Men.
But a lot of their villains are often not true villains,
like Magneto for example, like various X Men who've turned
bad vice versa. Emma Frost is allowed to be a
good guy. Now whatever Apocalypse is just a bad dude.
And this is also a world where the Mutants won. Yeah,

(03:46:48):
the Mutants are the top class and they call humans
flat scans.

Speaker 2 (03:46:53):
Yeah. I love this crossover. I think it is so good.
And the reason why it is my three is because
it is It is hard to talk about great X
Men stories without talking about this, right, And you.

Speaker 1 (03:47:08):
Know we're gonna have and I think we'll discuss as
we're I'm suspecting we are going to leave the same
pretty major X Men event off of our list because
we do not like it.

Speaker 2 (03:47:17):
Okay, let's just let's just drop it right now.

Speaker 3 (03:47:19):
Dark Phoenix is not on either of our lists.

Speaker 1 (03:47:20):
Dark Phoenix is not on my list because we don't
like Phoenix well, and because I think the Dark Phoenix
saga has arrested the X Men. I agree, we keep
going back to it. It wasn't good, And Jason actually
has a really interesting theory that the only people who
like it are the people who experienced it in real time.

Speaker 2 (03:47:39):
I think when you experienced it in real time, because
I think one, the X Men dealing with a cosmic
space entity that looks like a bird is ridiculous. Two,
I'm not a huge fan of the X Men and
being in space.

Speaker 1 (03:47:53):
I don't like X Men and space.

Speaker 2 (03:47:54):
I don't like the X Men in space. And then three,
they have tried to replicate the Phoenix storyline so many
times with diminishing returns every single time. I think also
that's the reason why they've tried to make it in
a movie twice and it hasn't worked either time. Both
times failed both times.

Speaker 1 (03:48:11):
In our Jean Gray episode, which I taught as well,
Jean Gray's died and come back like seven times. And
that's another reason why this is kind of what dark
pinus Saga's what set the bar for that, and that's
why it's cheap and it doesn't every time it happens
where like, I don't care she's gonna but Age of apocaly.
Age of Apocalypse is lauded and it is renowned an

(03:48:35):
action figure line of Age of Apocalypse. Back in the nineties,
they made a movie as loosely as you want, they
quite not even close. They titled it because it's so lauded.
I will say right now, that's why we like it.
They should have done Age of Apocalypse as a movie.
Think about this absolutely.

Speaker 2 (03:48:54):
X Men trilogy Movie one is Legion, Yeah, blah blah
blah blah blah. The cliff is he resets the timeline
movie too. Age of Apocalypse. It is the ultimate timeline.
Apocalypse has taken over America. Magneto's in charge of the
X Men. At the end of that movie, we change
it back and then we and then the third movie
is like we're back to normal, you know, and we

(03:49:16):
the timeline has changed. Maybe blah blah blah blah. But
Agent of pot they should have just they should have
just made an Age of Apocalypse trilogy.

Speaker 1 (03:49:23):
Yes, And my other hot take is that Apocalypse should
have gone away after Age of Apocalypse because he is
another character that they keep bringing back because.

Speaker 2 (03:49:33):
This was so huge and this is a storyline.

Speaker 3 (03:49:35):
And it's diminishing returns as well.

Speaker 2 (03:49:37):
I agree. I will say the Apocalypse that's in this
storyline is not quite the Apocalypse that shows up later
at a different times. Also, there's an Apocalypse child, yes
that's later on that has nothing to do with this.

Speaker 1 (03:49:49):
No no, no, no no. But I mean like there are
other versions of Apocalypse.

Speaker 2 (03:49:52):
But I will say this too as a person who
was reading this live and was picking this off the
stands live, it was also cool to see the packed
from this because Bishop remembers the Age of Apocalypse and
that becomes an ongoing X Men storyline where X Men
villains figure out that there was this other timeline. Even
Apocalypse figures it out and it's like, oh, how do
I get back to that? And then characters like Nate Gray,

(03:50:14):
the alternate cable survives X Men, gets the sixth issue
and and goes on for seventy five issues. Yeah, that's
astounding that it was the best one. It was the
best one.

Speaker 1 (03:50:27):
I also think Age of Apocalypse is a good mix
between on sort of the action movie X Men version
that I think you were leaning toward with your Mark
Miller choice and the very like intellectual we are teaching
a lesson version that I was leading toward by picking
the X Men number one. Well, like I said, like,
it's a good marriage of those two. And yes, an
age of apocalypse seems dangerous.

Speaker 3 (03:50:48):
That's what it does.

Speaker 2 (03:50:48):
Yeah, that's what I'm gonna keep saying. Like, to me,
the X Men are dangerous. There's they should have this
danger in this life and death feeling to it that,
you know, because people fight eating for their very well being.
The Avengers do not do that.

Speaker 1 (03:51:03):
Yeah, They're literally fighting for their lives and their rights.

Speaker 2 (03:51:06):
And yeah, there you go.

Speaker 1 (03:51:07):
So that was my number three. It was your number
umber four. So Jason, what's your number four?

Speaker 2 (03:51:13):
My number four is I think is easily the best
Chris Claremont story that he has ever written, and it
was the Ending of the John Byrne Chris Claremont run,
which many people think is the greatest X Men run.

Speaker 1 (03:51:24):
I would argue it. It's definitely up there.

Speaker 3 (03:51:26):
Days of Future Past. That's my number three.

Speaker 2 (03:51:28):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (03:51:29):
So we just swapped to them.

Speaker 2 (03:51:30):
That's so funny, Kenny, X Men number one for one
to one forty two.

Speaker 1 (03:51:35):
Which, by the way, we have a very early OGGI
history lesson where we read and reviewed because of the
movie was coming.

Speaker 2 (03:51:41):
By the way, I want to talk about that. It's
interesting that you and I for our threes and fours
put these alternate timeline X Men stories. They're alternate timeline xps.
Yeah yeah, which The X Men, by the way, has thousands. Basically,
the storyline of this is an older kiddy Pride is
sent back in time to prevent an assassination that leads
to the rise of the Sentinels and the beginning of

(03:52:01):
enslavement for all mutants. Now these are only it's only
two issues off the hoy is it wording? It got
a whole movie based around it. It's at the classic
scene where Wolverine gets incinerated by Sentinels. I think the
reason why this is one of the greatest X Men storylines,
this is my number four, and the reason why I
put it lesser than Angel Poclast is that I think

(03:52:24):
the idea is more important than the execution. But also
I have a hard time thinking about this. I don't
know if there's another alternate timeline comic book storyline that
I can think off off the top of my head
before this or that hits as hard as this home.

Speaker 3 (03:52:40):
I mean, they're very well could be.

Speaker 1 (03:52:42):
I certainly don't have There's a good chance Fantastic forwarded
some version.

Speaker 2 (03:52:46):
We all know the two covers for these issues. The
Sentinel about to fry Wolverine, and then I'm standing in
front of the picture hoster slain murdered, missing, slain, murdered, mess.

Speaker 1 (03:52:58):
And truly, every every major independent comic has done a
parody of that, Every Marvel title has done a parody
of that cover is iconic. The reason for me that
I put this above Age of Apocalypse is because it
has two of my favorite characters in it, Like it
just circles around two characters that I love more so,
very very interesting. We'll both put it on hers.

Speaker 2 (03:53:22):
It's good, it's It's my favorite Chris Claremont story is
Days of Future Past because I think it's so short,
it's very quick to the point, but yet it's very
very powerful.

Speaker 1 (03:53:31):
I think this is the first time, too, that you
get a sense of what a real that Kitty Pride
is a badass, because Kitty Pride is very much introduced
to be like a young Angenoux. Wolverine's kind of young
girl I'm taking under my wing sidekick, and she's kind
of whiny in her original, and this is the first
time you get to see her really common to her own.

Speaker 3 (03:53:50):
She's really powerful.

Speaker 1 (03:53:51):
There's a cool moment where so she's mostly known for
the phase powers, right, she learns that she can make
her molecule so light that she can walk on air.
It's really really cool and it's nice to see her
play a more powerful role which X Men, even though Jean.

Speaker 3 (03:54:07):
Gray is not my favorite character.

Speaker 1 (03:54:08):
X Men has always done a good job at having
a powerful, uh female who is able to take advantage
of the fact that people underestimate her. I understand why
in the movie they sent Wolverine back instead of Kitty Pride,
but I kind of wished it had been Kitty Pride
because like, that's the classic one.

Speaker 3 (03:54:26):
Well, I wish it was played by a different person.

Speaker 2 (03:54:29):
Why I would.

Speaker 1 (03:54:31):
I would have liked to have seen the classic execution
of it. I also think Days of Future Pass is
a really great title. Great title, well, Agrian PoCA is
a great title. Is it's a really intelligent use of Wolverine.
Because once Wolverine was invented, Thank you, Lenuain, May you
rest in power? Uh, they shove Wolverine and everything. Wolverine

(03:54:51):
is often not well.

Speaker 2 (03:54:53):
Used like the most popular X Men, So yeah, I
get it.

Speaker 1 (03:54:56):
This is an intelligent use of Wolverine in both the
comic book and and the movie adaptation, and it makes
but it makes sense. What he's the one who survived
this long as well come here to like Cyclops and Storm,
we've all been brutally murdered.

Speaker 2 (03:55:08):
Yeah, it's interesting too. I want to say, like, the
other impressive thing about Day's Future past is that, again,
no warning, they just done it. If you're reading in
the next you're reading that book in the nineteen eighties
and then suddenly your next issue is all the X
Men are dead, You're like, what, Yeah, what happened here?
So just like Age of Apocalypse, no warning.

Speaker 1 (03:55:25):
Well, you know what, I'm sure previews was not a thing,
and neither was the Internet, so they could truly do
whatever they wanted to. Okay, so that's my number four,
and no, your number.

Speaker 2 (03:55:37):
Day's Future passes my number four. It's my number three,
and Age of Apocalys is my number three. You're number four.

Speaker 3 (03:55:43):
Great, so we're doing really good at numbers.

Speaker 2 (03:55:45):
Ding ding dong. Hey, Ashley, I think we have a
guest at the door.

Speaker 1 (03:55:48):
Ding dong, ding dong.

Speaker 2 (03:55:49):
Oh, Okay, I'm going to answer the door, uh huh,
and I'm gonna go to the bathroom and then I'm
gonna let her guest.

Speaker 1 (03:55:54):
Then, okay, okay, I will wait here. Jason is leaving.
We're waiting for whoever it comes. Hi.

Speaker 2 (03:56:02):
Hello, I'm looking for hope. My name is Charles Xavier.

Speaker 1 (03:56:07):
Oh my gosh, thank you so much for joining us
for a top five X Men story.

Speaker 2 (03:56:10):
You're welcome, of course, I'm who the X Men are
named after. Yes, Ashley, correct, I know that I read
your mind.

Speaker 3 (03:56:20):
Well, that was really polite to me to ask. That's
really sweet.

Speaker 1 (03:56:22):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (03:56:23):
I'm looking for hope in your brain? It's yes. Did
you know that I can help you make a professional website?

Speaker 3 (03:56:33):
Whoa with your brain?

Speaker 2 (03:56:35):
But no, not no, not with my brain. That's not
how websites work. I can help you make a professional
website with weeks.

Speaker 3 (03:56:45):
Whaah, that's wix.

Speaker 2 (03:56:47):
Yes, wi X. You can start and publish your website
for free. We can scroll through the five hundred studying templates.
Maybe we can find one that creates hope. We can
add our own texts and images and videos of myself
Eric Lencher a standing on a boat, fishing, video backgrounds, galleries, menus, forms,

(03:57:15):
and I could give you a social bar that would
take you straight to my Instagram, where there are many
pictures of me in a bathtub.

Speaker 1 (03:57:21):
Ooh, I'm here for it.

Speaker 2 (03:57:23):
Yes, So Ashley, does that sound impressive to you?

Speaker 3 (03:57:27):
Well, professor, I think by reading my mind you can tell.

Speaker 1 (03:57:30):
That it does.

Speaker 2 (03:57:31):
I did, and I can. And please stop thinking about
me in the bathtub.

Speaker 1 (03:57:36):
Oh well, and please get started now by going to
wis dot com. That's wix dot com slash podcast to
get ten percent off your Wix website. You can improve
your current website by going to wix dot com slash podcast.

(03:57:57):
Did you know it's hassle free? I didn't. Yes.

Speaker 2 (03:58:00):
So you're saying, oh wait, hold on the picking upside
from your brain. You want to create a website without
limits of me in a bath will pitch polsh Actually,
I don't know if that's appropriate. I'm a professor of
small children. But eighteen, it's time for me to go.
I'm just going to walk out. You're going to walk out,

(03:58:22):
I'm I'm walking Charlie. Oh hey, I'm back. Now you
missed this weird bald guy. Yeah, he kind of smelled
like bubbles.

Speaker 1 (03:58:32):
Yeah, he was very he was very charming.

Speaker 3 (03:58:37):
I would describe him as groovy.

Speaker 4 (03:58:39):
Oh.

Speaker 2 (03:58:39):
He had had a very groovy mutation did okay? Well,
speaking of groovy, I think we are in to uh
a top two yes of our X Men list? Ashley, Yeah,
very intrigued. I'm very intrigued to find out what your
top two X Men stories are. What's your number two?

(03:59:00):
What's y'all no.

Speaker 1 (03:59:01):
Two. I'm going to say this. I suspect that this one,
number two may also be on your list.

Speaker 2 (03:59:12):
Let's find out New x Men, New x Men what.
There's lots of titles called New x Men.

Speaker 1 (03:59:18):
Specifically the Grant Morrison Kum Frank quietly kum all of
the backup artists?

Speaker 2 (03:59:22):
Are you talking about New x Men? One?

Speaker 3 (03:59:26):
Fourteen to one sixteen E is for extinction?

Speaker 1 (03:59:30):
That is the name of the first story. R Yes, Yes,
that's yes, That's what I'm talking.

Speaker 2 (03:59:36):
That is also my number two.

Speaker 1 (03:59:37):
Hey, look at that. I was really worried it was
going to be your number one, because I was pretty
sure that this was going.

Speaker 3 (03:59:41):
To be on your list.

Speaker 2 (03:59:42):
You will never predict my number one.

Speaker 1 (03:59:45):
I think you might be able to predict my number one.
Maybe we'll try and see you for psychics something with
Niccrawler number one.

Speaker 3 (03:59:53):
I just want to say that I knew this was going.

Speaker 1 (03:59:54):
To be on Jason's list because Jason owns the complete
run in the fancy hardcovers I do. I specifically read
the es for Extinction arc in preparation for this list
because I know it is lauded. I know it is celebrated,
and I had easy access to it. It's also on
Marvel Limited, right, I mean most of these are all

(04:00:16):
of these are all of these because all of them
so far barring our number one, my number one is
on Marvel Limited. Are very key, very important. Mine is.

Speaker 2 (04:00:26):
I'm pretty certain Mind's on Marvel Limited. I think all
of these are on Marvel Limited.

Speaker 1 (04:00:30):
Yeah, great, they'll also I'll be on our recommended readings.
So for Extinction me, you just read it. Why did
it mark so high for you? Because for Extinction? I
love almost everything Grant Morrison has done. I love most
of his superhero stuff, haven't read all of it. But
what I like about his superhero stuff, and we've said
it before and I will say it again, is it

(04:00:53):
very much deconstructs and embraces everything that is great about
a storyline or a character or a t or their themes,
and then sort of rejiggers it with his weird Scottish
magic and then interprets it for a modern age. E
Is for Extinction introduces Cassandra Nova, who is Charles Xavier's.

Speaker 2 (04:01:14):
Sister weird evil twin.

Speaker 1 (04:01:16):
Yeah, she's not like quite his sister okay if you
haven't read it, sister who he killed in the womb,
but sister weird evil twin. And what I like about
this is something that you and I talked about when
we started doing X Men Geek history lessons, is that
Charles Xavier is kind of evil, yes, and Charles Xavier
is very much a puppet master, and Charles Xavier only

(04:01:37):
tells you as much as you need to know. And
Is for Extinction is very much his children having to
pick up the pieces of his maybe not lies, but
definitely lying by omission. And it's really interesting to watch
them all have to fill those roles because it comes
at a point in X Men continuity where they're also

(04:01:59):
falling apart. Like Gotten Gene are married. At this point,
the marriage is in a really bad place. He kind
of reinvents the wheel by bringing Emma Frost onto the
team for the first time, which is hilarious because now
she's like a staple of the X Men like she's
in all of the X books. He really I don't
think he introduces it here, but he really embraces the
idea of secondary mutations. This is where this is the

(04:02:19):
first time that ever happened. Great, then he invented it,
of course he did. He's a god because Beast gets
Jason's favorite update that Beast does everything and yeah, which
and me is iconic for her, so I can't imagine
it's that modern.

Speaker 2 (04:02:32):
They kind of abandoned that after the storyline. Nobody else
really does secondary mutations, which well, you know what, when
you think about mutations, it would, but not.

Speaker 1 (04:02:41):
All of them, and they keep changing what I secondary
mutation for me is a very like dangerous idea from
a writer's standpoint, and I'm glad because there's an alternate
universe where people rely on it too much and then
everyone suddenly gets these new random like everyone becomes Rogan
Scarlet Witch who just always have new powers because of reasons,
and that to me is deeply annoying. Whereas like the

(04:03:03):
Emma idea and the Beast idea are really intelligent, really
well thought out. My only real argument with it is
I hate Emma Frost as a character and they give
her just the grossest, most cheese gakiest, most disrespectful of
the fact that she is a woman costume and I understand.

Speaker 2 (04:03:20):
That Emma costume doesn't work with gravity.

Speaker 1 (04:03:22):
I mean they literally, they literally draw the outline of
her volva in her shorts. And to me, that's just
icky because X Men should also, I think, be accessible
to young people because of the subject matter it deals
with them. For me, like, I have weird feelings about that.
And Emma Frost is also a character that I in
no way do I believe that she's above using her
sexuality to get what she wants. But there's a way

(04:03:43):
to do that and still be respectful, and unfortunately I
don't think that that restores that embraces it. There's also
like Frank Quietly's design of Scott Summers, which is not
my favorite Scott Summers I've ever seen, but you kind
of explained it to me, and he's embracing the idea
that he's slim. It's called slim and that is like
an og from the X Men number one, nineteen sixty
through like original cyclops idea. So even though there's a

(04:04:05):
lot of really heady ideas here. When you step back
and look at it, it's all a celebration of why
we love the X Men, and that's why I think
it resonates with people, and that's why I think it
still stands up as one of the best storylines. And
then the idea of the YOU Men is so true
to what would happen if mutants were real it frightens me.
So why don't you tell me a little bit about

(04:04:26):
why you love He is for Extinction aka The New
X Men.

Speaker 2 (04:04:30):
Like, one of the best things that Graham Morrison does
is he updates tired concepts. At this point, the X
Men were dying because of their continuity, they were buried
under alternate timeline hell because of Age of Apocalypse. Everybody
tried to replicate that storyline. There were so there were
hundreds of thousands of mutants in the world because every

(04:04:52):
writer introduced any mutant, and it kind of got lost
about like, what the hell is the point of the
X Men? And Grant Morrison embraced the thing that the
movie did best. It's like, oh, they're a school. Before
this run, the school was empty. The school was just
a house where the X Man lived. Grant Morrison put

(04:05:13):
that back in the comic books they are teachers. Yeah,
first and foremost they are kids, and this is an academy.

Speaker 1 (04:05:19):
There are actually repeatedly because Charles outs them at one
point to the.

Speaker 2 (04:05:23):
Media, and that's the first storyline that happens.

Speaker 1 (04:05:25):
Where they are coming, the reporters are coming and they're
asking them, isn't this an army? Isn't he building an army?
In Jean's like no, it's a volunteer organization. We offer aid. Like,
we are not an army, We are not militants.

Speaker 2 (04:05:37):
I've heard it described as that Grant Morrison is the
writer who drug the X Men kicking and screaming into
the modern era, and I kind of think, but that
is true because they were kind of buried underneath Chris
Claremont and like nobody could escape Chris Claremont storytelling, and
Grant Morrison gave them what I think is the best
X Men costume of all time that day. Gelo jacket

(04:05:59):
is so awesome. And that's the only thing I was
exciting me about Dark Phoenix is that they adapt to
those jackets because they look cool and they had these
black leather, you know, little things, and I like the
idea the logo and the new X Men.

Speaker 1 (04:06:12):
I like the idea.

Speaker 2 (04:06:13):
He was like, no, this is new X Men. This
is new, Like this is all different, and the idea
is that they're battling it. This is like a superhero book.
This is a soap opera book. This is a relationship book.
It's very much a soap and it's a science fiction book.
And I think by doing that and making it up
aut everything, it really harkens back to the best X
Men stories we ever know, but yet updates it. I

(04:06:33):
think Frank Quitely's art is amazing. The biggest downside about
Grant Morrison's whole run is that the art is not consistent.
But this is about fighting the future. This is about
our legacy, and this is about like why are the
X Men needed in the world? And one of the
best things I think two there's two things this run
did amazingly. One is it invented the X Corporation YEP,

(04:06:56):
which is where mutants make embassies across the world to
help humans.

Speaker 1 (04:07:01):
Which is interesting because that's also a concept that you
really like about the Amazons. On the DC side, you
like when Diana goes and participates in the embassy.

Speaker 2 (04:07:09):
Yes, And I also like when Grant Morrison basically copied
himself for Batman Batman clipt basically you could tell that
he got that idea from this. But the thing about
this is that I think that this is actually the
most forethinking, amazing, and probably the best Cyclops story of
all time, because this is the storyline that lets Scott

(04:07:29):
move past Charles Xavier and past being just the character
goes boy, I love Gene. Yeah yeah, and he moves
past both things. And again, Ashley has not finished this
entire right now, and I'm specifically just talking about the
first you know, beginning the E for Extinction Storylan, which,
by the way, great title and again seems dangerous, right

(04:07:50):
Grim Morrison in his first issue destroys Genosha Yes, yeah,
like murders one hundred thousand mutants in the first issue
and makes their enemy seem dangerous the X Men.

Speaker 1 (04:08:00):
Savory's inside cerebra and he beholds it, Yes, exactly.

Speaker 2 (04:08:03):
Now, when you finish the Grant mores run, if you
make it all the way through his forty to thirty
five issues, I think his last scene is one of
the most powerful scenes in X Men history. And I
said this several times that for me, it's almost the
ending of the X Men, like you can be like,
that's it, that's where the story ends.

Speaker 3 (04:08:23):
He also kind of writes the last Superman.

Speaker 2 (04:08:25):
Story, and he also sort of writes the last Batman story.
He likes to do like permanent, like what could be
considered the last ending of Yeah, but for Extinction, that
is my number two. I'm surprised I made it so high. Yeah,
I think it's really great. Also, I was reading this
the other day. By the way, I own a zorin
action figure.

Speaker 1 (04:08:40):
By the way, this is the first time that I
understood that the X Mansion is shaped like it X
and I felt really stupid. Hey, look at that sky shot. Wow. Yeah, yeap,
all right, actually the time has come. Yes, what is
y'all number? Are you gonna do? You want to guess
that you want to try to be psychic?

Speaker 2 (04:09:00):
Oh, I don't know. Hmmm, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (04:09:04):
I don't When you joked something with Nightcrawler and like,
you're not wrong.

Speaker 2 (04:09:06):
I mean, it's gonna be something with Nightcrawler, but it's
hard to think about like Nightcrawler's storyline, I don't know.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (04:09:12):
Honestly, it's not EXCaliber that I'm sure, I know that. Sure,
we'll run into our also rands and I definitely thought
about EXCaliber. Mine is what is now known as All New,
all Different X Men, and it debuted in Giant Size
X Men number one. And this is the beginning of
the Claremont era of X Men. Not, okay, you talk

(04:09:36):
about the one shot. This is the one shot that
leads into that era. That's Lenwen.

Speaker 3 (04:09:42):
Well, not according to the thing that I had.

Speaker 2 (04:09:46):
I'm very certain it's Lennuien. I'm sorry, I'm sorry to
correct you on air, but but yes, it leads into
the Claremont run.

Speaker 1 (04:09:51):
Yes, because up to this point, up to this point,
the X Men had been canceled, that book was driven
into the ground, and there was no new stories for
five years. So in nineteen seventy five, this is what
introduced this new team.

Speaker 2 (04:10:09):
Yes, written by Len Ween, illustrated by Dave Cochran.

Speaker 1 (04:10:13):
I wan to say Claremont takes over and writes the
regular se Very series. I will, I will, I will
look that up to find out when Claremont jumps off.
That's totally fine. Clearly my source he corked me a
couple of times, was in very no It's all.

Speaker 2 (04:10:26):
The only and the only reason I apologize interrupt you,
and I don't want the listeners to think this is
to be constantly correcting you. But len Ween is one
of the greatest commagends of all time, created Nightcrawler and Wolverine. Yes, yeah,
but Wolverene is a whole character, and len Ween wrote
that issue.

Speaker 1 (04:10:42):
No, I know, I know, but I just think it's
interesting because Wolverine is not was not created as a character.

Speaker 2 (04:10:46):
Actually, the whole reason why Wolverine is in this issue
is because LENNI was like, oh I put this guy
in Hulk.

Speaker 1 (04:10:51):
Yes, So Lenuien wrote giant size X Men. He introduced
these characters. But this is what people think of as
Claremont era X Men. This brings on board to the
team night Crawler, Colossus, Storm, and Wolverine, who for for me,
I think for everyone who engaged with the X Men
after nineteen seventy five or met them for the first

(04:11:14):
time after nineteen seventy five, those are like o g
original X Men.

Speaker 3 (04:11:20):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (04:11:21):
Chris Claremont came on board with the X Men ninety
four and left the title in nineteen ninety one.

Speaker 3 (04:11:28):
He wrote the ob basically all the eighties, he wrote.

Speaker 2 (04:11:30):
That, so he took off You are correct on that
this let off the Chris Claremont run, because that issue
that you talk about, Giant Size X Men comes out
in nineteen seventy five, and Claremont takes over X Men
in May of nineteen seventy five because he had expressed
his enthusiasm for what Lennwen and Dave Cochran had created.
Oh there you go, so they gave him the book.

(04:11:50):
I share Claremont's enthusiasm. But why this issue? Why is
this the greatest X Men story of all time?

Speaker 1 (04:11:57):
Well, it's not specifically this issue, but it's like this era,
which in their collections is called all New, all different
x Men.

Speaker 2 (04:12:05):
There is at all difference. It's so confusing Marvel, I know.

Speaker 1 (04:12:09):
You'll often find it under like you can also find
these in a bunch of Marble masterworks. This for me
as an issue like Gians X Men number one because
it introduced my x Men. Everything that I love about
the X Men comes from this issue. And then the
sort of broader run the Claremont era, because if you

(04:12:31):
read the X Men before Claremont comes on board, it's
very much a team book. It's very much an action.
Claremont introduces the interpersonal dynamics and the soap opera aspect
that you've been bringing up.

Speaker 2 (04:12:45):
And the subplot. He's the master of.

Speaker 1 (04:12:47):
The su is, both to the betterment and detriment when
it's handled by lesser writers, or honestly, when Claremont picks
it up again later on, Like, I have so much
respect for Chris Claremont operating during this era, and I
think they should just pay him to retire.

Speaker 2 (04:13:00):
He returned to The X Men twice after he ended
his run in one. He returned somewhere in the late
nineties and then again somewhere in the mid two thousands,
and both times it was not the same. It was
not because he still wrote the comics like there was
still nineteen ninety two.

Speaker 3 (04:13:21):
Yes, and it is just not.

Speaker 1 (04:13:22):
It's just not, And that's fine, and that happens to
a lot of creators when they're invited back. But at
his best. Claremont added that last little thing that for
all of younger and more contemporary readers, people who kind
of met the X Men after him, we think of
as being quintessential.

Speaker 2 (04:13:41):
But let me talk about this, okay, So because I'm
gonna so what are you counting as the best X
Men storyline because you you named great x you name
Giant Size X Men number one, not written by Claremont.

Speaker 1 (04:13:54):
Or so the collection, the one that I'm going to
put on our recommended reading, is called All New, All
Different X Men, and it begins with Giant Sized X
Men number one.

Speaker 2 (04:14:02):
And how far into the Claremont run does it go.

Speaker 1 (04:14:05):
There're several volumes, but it collects all of the Claremont
run through nine.

Speaker 2 (04:14:08):
But it's like the first of what happens in the
original and like this stuff or like I'm like, what
about what happens in the storyline that makes you say,
like this is the greatest storyline? Is it just because
it's the beginning of Claremont.

Speaker 1 (04:14:18):
It's because it's the beginning of this era. It's because
this is when they introduce all of these new characters,
and they made the X Men more of an international
team like Nightcrawler, Colossals and Storm are all kind of diversity.

Speaker 3 (04:14:31):
Highers on this team too.

Speaker 2 (04:14:33):
Yes, I saw the bunch.

Speaker 3 (04:14:36):
She's fine.

Speaker 2 (04:14:37):
Gets over here.

Speaker 1 (04:14:38):
Here's a reason he's not as iconic as the rest
even well, there's a reason he was in X Men
first class. Yeah, he's he's barely adequate in first class.

Speaker 2 (04:14:46):
That's true.

Speaker 1 (04:14:47):
They're all diversity hires because they're opening the X Men
beyond New York City for the first time, they're dealing
with these characters and giving them real personalities. They're putting
them in conflict. This is also one of the first
times that the g x Men get to graduate. We
get to say Jean and Scott and Hank, they leave
the team, leaving the team, becoming adult and kind of

(04:15:09):
getting more complex personalities. This is when X Men became
about people instead of becoming about an idea, which is
difficult because X Men started being about an idea. But
this is where everything I love comes from. In our
Nightcrawler episode, we talked about the Nightcrawler origin where he's
chased out of the tiny town in Germany, like for

(04:15:30):
the first time, they're flying the Quinjet all over the
world to collect people, Like they're taking on responsibility in
a way that we'd never seen them do before. And
I think that this is another place where everything that
we love about modern X Men and about X Men
adaptations comes from. Is it your argument that Chris Claremont
is the greatest X Men writer, Yes, I would absolutely,

(04:15:50):
I would absolutely make that statement interesting, and because I
think when you go back and revisit them, I always
make the joke that they're very wordy, but they're still great.
They still feel relevant and contemporary in a way that
the Stanley stuff doesn't, and that's because it's the difference
of thirty years versus fifty years. They recolored the night

(04:16:10):
Crawler origin and put it in the back of one
of the oh, the big X Men ones where they
retold all the history. It doesn't matter the ed Pisker thing.

Speaker 2 (04:16:22):
X Men Grand Design.

Speaker 3 (04:16:23):
They put it in the back of Grand Design.

Speaker 2 (04:16:25):
Giant size X Men isn't the first.

Speaker 1 (04:16:26):
And they recolored it and that's and it still holds up.
And when it's recolored, it actually feels much more modern.
So yeah, everything I love about the X Men comes
from this era. So for me, it had to be
my number one all right, Jason, Yes, now your time
has come. Okay for what what is your number one
X Men story?

Speaker 2 (04:16:47):
My number one X Men story doesn't even have X
Men in the title. There is not x Men in
my title. Okay, I'm going to say a word that
I think many fans have forgotten about, but is the
greatest X Men story of all time. X Statics is
the greatest X Men storyline of all time, and by

(04:17:09):
that I am opening into the Pete Milligan and Mike
Alred run that includes X Force and X Statics. Now,
what many people don't realize is that when Grant Morrison
took over New X Men at the very same time,
they rebooted every other X Men title, and they gave
Peter Milligan X Force, which he rebooted into a brand

(04:17:30):
new team with brand new characters that had never existed before.
No longer were the members of X Force, you know,
like gun toting, gritting grim and gritty people. This is
actually about a rowdy crew of mutants who were fame
hungry celebrities. And the thing about this book is that
there were almost a character death every issue. There's a

(04:17:53):
revolving door of cast members and they're super familiar and
I think super relatable characters, including people like Orphan, who
is aka Mister Sensitive. He's the team's de facto leader,
a mutant with purple skin and two antennae. There's El Guappo,
a sexy male mutant with a sentient flying skateboard there

(04:18:14):
is you Go Girl, who is the blue skinned and
redheaded narcalliptic teleporter who is once romantically linked to Zeitgeist
and has a secret origin, and then of somebody who
Ashley loves who comes in the series as well, the
green floating spheroid ghost called Doupe Pope.

Speaker 1 (04:18:30):
Can I tell you something fun about do?

Speaker 2 (04:18:32):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (04:18:32):
In E for Extinction, m Gene is watching television and
stuff is floating around her and she has a Dupe keychain.

Speaker 2 (04:18:41):
Yeah. I believe there's an issue of New X Men
you will see where they are watching ecstatics.

Speaker 1 (04:18:46):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (04:18:47):
And also Wolverine in his frank quietly costume shows up
in X Force and ex Status several times because you
learn that Dupe and Wolverine are best friends and Wolverine
owes Dupe favors Now is low key one of my
favorite X well. The funny thing, too, is that Dupe
does not speak in human language. He has his own

(04:19:08):
language and that and Peter Milligan has given him a cipher,
like there is a cipher you can't decipher all his berballoons.
It is my estimation that Dupe sounds.

Speaker 1 (04:19:17):
Something like like he said like that. I also love
that he operates much like The Droids and Star Wars.
You just have to assume everyone understands yes, and.

Speaker 2 (04:19:29):
You also have to assume that he's ultimately powerful, like
he's unstoppable. We don't even know what his meat and
powers are, but we can also at the same time,
he knows he's in a comic book. Oh Dupe can
see beyond Reality. Now. The reason why this is my
number one X Men title of all time is because

(04:19:49):
because it gets out of the superheroics and becomes about people.
It literally takes head on this idea that this group
of people are different from other people and really examines this. Now,
these are people that have been hurt by their mutation.

(04:20:10):
These are people that cannot live with their mutation. These
are people that are not good people because of their mutation.
They are suffering the effects because they are mutants. They're
just something that we hardly ever see in regular X
Men titles, and it is something that would actually happen
if you have mutations. You feel a little bit with Rogue,

(04:20:30):
but it gets a little tired, and every once in
a while you get a scene when niccol is like, Oh,
I'm sad, I'm blue, but he can teleport, whereas like
characters in Ecstatics, you know, like there's one character that
vomits acidic acid. That's his mutant power.

Speaker 1 (04:20:44):
Angel does that, who's also introduced in New Yes.

Speaker 2 (04:20:48):
That's a dangerous mutant power. But to be honest with you,
there would be more mutants like that than there would
be like Psyclops with cool powers exactly. Now, the reason
again is that this whole book is satirical. I think
it has as a level of style that's very interesting.
It is a cynicism towards being superheroes. It like talks

(04:21:10):
actively about how being superheroes are stupid. And I'm gonna
tell you what. The first issue of X Force of
this title, all the main characters are killed off. They're
killed off in the first issue, and then you are
reintroduced to brand new characters in the second issue. And
fun fact, there is a recurring joke throughout the entire

(04:21:30):
series because it goes X Force for like twenty issues
and then it's renamed Ecstatics. But you can find this
in collections called Ecstatics. There are characters in the series
who lament that they want their X Force back, and
they keep it keeps coming back. Where they're like, where's
my X Force? But this book was so well received,

(04:21:51):
and part of the reason is that the art in
this book, unlike Grant Morrison's, is consistent. There are three
art There are multiple artists in this book, but there
are three guys who carry the most load. Mike Allred,
Paul Pope, and Darwin Cook draw.

Speaker 1 (04:22:07):
This book, all very different styles, all highly styla. Yes,
there's none of this Jim lee House style going on
to me.

Speaker 2 (04:22:14):
Ecstatics proves the concept of the X Men franchise more
so than any X Men storyline up ever throw because
they basically let Pete Melligan do whatever he wants. And
I dare you to read the story of You Go
Girl and her secret mutant Power, which I will not spoil.
All I will say is it has something to do
with a child that she cannot raise herself because of

(04:22:35):
her mutant power, and I dare you to read that
issue and not cry. It is more profound than any
other X Men story I've ever read. And I think
the reason it's profound is because sometimes when you jump
into satire, you become more real than an actual dramatic storytelling.
And that's why ecstatics. I think the greatest X Men
story of all time. Nice, So there you go. I

(04:22:58):
told you you'd never predict my number one. Nope, So
there you go. Our recommended reading, of course Ashley can
be found where.

Speaker 1 (04:23:04):
At Geekistrelsson dot com slash recommended.

Speaker 2 (04:23:08):
Read it and it'll be our top three of each
of our lists.

Speaker 1 (04:23:10):
I mean, since we have so much crossover, it'll probably
just be everything on our list.

Speaker 2 (04:23:13):
Well, there you go. It'll be pretty easy, all right.
So let's move into the final section of our podcast,
the GHO on aorall which of you go over to
Apple Podcasts and you leave us a review or Apple
Music and you lose a five star review. You can
write anything you want, but for helping us in the
Apple podcast algorithm, we'll read your review on the show.
I hate to say, I'm sorry our foreign listeners were

(04:23:35):
only checking the American Apple podcasts.

Speaker 3 (04:23:38):
Look, whill we catch up.

Speaker 2 (04:23:40):
We'll go over to the well, I don't know, maybe
since it's now Apple Podcasts, they'll all be filtered together.

Speaker 1 (04:23:44):
I don't know, and I don't know.

Speaker 2 (04:23:46):
We're in a post iTunes world now, people, and I
have no idea how I.

Speaker 1 (04:23:49):
Will say I sincerely hope that they do integrate everything,
because we very much love and appreciate our foreign listeners.

Speaker 2 (04:23:54):
Yes we do.

Speaker 1 (04:23:55):
Okay, so the first person we have two people, The
first of two joining ow we're on a world today
is Jenna v B, who says, listen for a good time.
This is, without a doubt, my favorite podcast. Every week
I tune in and it's as though I'm sitting around
listening to my friends discuss and or debate their favorite things.
You can tell every character, constructor a thing from pop
culture that is discussed on this podcast has been thoroughly researched.

(04:24:18):
My favorite episodes are the one that highlight Jason and
Ashley's favorite characters or topics because it makes me that
much more excited to go read about them. Oh that's
really cute. I've learned a lot about characters and topics
I only knew by name, and found new favorites just
by hearing their histories. They've convinced me to branch out
and read or watch new things, and thanks to their
recommended reading section, my list has tripled in size.

Speaker 3 (04:24:37):
Yeah, long story short.

Speaker 1 (04:24:38):
If you're looking to expand your knowledge or just curious
about something, you've never had the time to read before.
This is the podcast for you. I promise you won't
be disappointed.

Speaker 2 (04:24:47):
Cool. Thanks about you.

Speaker 1 (04:24:48):
Thank you, Jenna VB. That's very kind and joining. I'm
assuming her if not, sorry to make an assumption about
your gender. Is Breeze Nicole, who says a must for
anyone who loves comics and the characters in them. GHL
is one of my favorite podcasts to listen to. Well commuting.
As someone who grew up loving the characters in comic
books and watched a ton of animated series, including Justice

(04:25:09):
League and Superman, I developed a love for all things
comic books. The problem is that I didn't actually grow
up with access to comics, though I just started reading
them now. GHL is perfect for the geek who loves
the universes of DC, Marvel and more and wants background
knowledge without having to catch up on decades of continuity.
Give GHL a try. After one, you'll be hooked. Thank
you so much for your kind words and your amazing reviews,

(04:25:32):
Breeze Nicole and Jenna VB. Professor Jason will wel you,
welcome you. She's the teachers.

Speaker 2 (04:25:37):
We welcome to the teachers Lounge over Here is a dartboard
from mister Hunter and you can play at any time
you like.

Speaker 1 (04:25:44):
What does mister Hunter teach again.

Speaker 2 (04:25:45):
Mister Hunter teach his European medieval fighting tactics.

Speaker 3 (04:25:50):
Ooh, I so trades and all that stuff. Trying to
build a t shap.

Speaker 1 (04:25:56):
You can.

Speaker 2 (04:25:56):
You can build as many tribute ches as you like. Wow,
he loves it. Put them on the football field. Wow,
the football team gets angry.

Speaker 1 (04:26:02):
We don't have a football team at the Mind University.

Speaker 2 (04:26:04):
Do we have a football team? Polo team and we
have a pole We have both and we have underwater
horse polo as well. We have that as well. Yeah, look,
don't be, don't be. Don't limit our students. They can
do anything they want with their mind.

Speaker 1 (04:26:19):
Okay, as long as they're doing it with our minds.
So thank you so much for reading those reviews. Over
an Apple podcasts. If you want to join the onorall,
please do the same. It really helps us. Uh, don't
forget to subscribe and listen to this podcast and download
this podcast everywhere. You can find podcasts on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
We're on Stitcher, We're on all kinds of stuff. iHeartRadio.

(04:26:40):
You can find us over there, and don't forget to
follow the podcast where Ashley on Twitter. You can contact
us at on Twitter at GJL podcast, at Facebook dot com,
slash geekistry lesson, or at geekstory lesson dot com. There's
a whole bunch of ways to contact us in all
of those places.

Speaker 2 (04:26:55):
Cool.

Speaker 1 (04:26:55):
You can follow us on Twitter at John and jw
i N. You can follow Ashley on Twitter at Ashley V.

Speaker 2 (04:26:59):
Robbinson. She already said we can follow the show hashtag
stick around real quick. We have a Patreon, Patreon dot com,
slash John with jwii N. They were going to be
talking about, you know, why is it so hard to
write a good X Men story? That's what we're gonna
be talking about. So for hashtag stick around and see
if you followed us through all the plugs, Ashley, what
did you almost put on your list? What almost made

(04:27:20):
it on there?

Speaker 1 (04:27:21):
So I made a list of just X Men stories
that I think are great, and I sort of tried
to go and find what they're appropriately called because some
of them, who knows, some of the ones that didn't
make it onto my list are x Men Grand Design,
which I can never remember the name of the all
new X Men, but I would have had to put
a huge caveat about only certain volumes that you can

(04:27:42):
read X Men read, but that's only one volume. I
thought about Wolverine Volume one, Old Man Logan, and Enemy
of the State, but I wanted to pick stories that
sort of more fully embraced all the X Men, and
ex Caliber was also on my short list. A lot
of great X Men stories, but also a sea of
bad ones. Jason, what were the ones that you considered?

Speaker 2 (04:28:05):
I mean, the only one that I ever considered putting
on this list was God Loved Man Kills, which is
the graphic novel that Chris Clarmont did, So I didn't
have any I kind of knew what this list was
going out the gate. Yeah, and I'm not a big
I know a lot of people out there probably screaming,
where is Astonishing X Man by JOSSH. Whedon? I have
found on subsequent readings that does not hold up at all.

Speaker 1 (04:28:27):
My hot take is volume two is terrible.

Speaker 2 (04:28:29):
I just think when the X Men are fighting a
giant bullet in space, it's not that interesting.

Speaker 1 (04:28:35):
What people like about Astonishing X Men. The art is
the art is that splash page of Kitty and Colossus.

Speaker 3 (04:28:42):
It's gorgeous.

Speaker 2 (04:28:43):
I mean, the art is amazing, but I don't think
the art a good story makes so for me.

Speaker 3 (04:28:48):
It doesn't with comics now.

Speaker 2 (04:28:49):
Yeah, But other than that, Like, no, I didn't have
any other outliers on here. I mean I considered there's
a Magneto web sery or means using mini series Colin Bunterry. No,
it's called The Magneto Last Will and Testament, and it's
the origin of Magneto first Class. Stole a lot of
it or used a lot of it, and it's about
Magneto surviving the camps. That's a very interesting storyline, but

(04:29:11):
it's not really an X Men story. It's just a
Magneto being in you know, Germany. So there you go.
Sure didn't think it was that much of X I
really wanted titles and storylines that promoted I Also, I.

Speaker 1 (04:29:26):
Also thought about putting X two on there.

Speaker 3 (04:29:28):
Because.

Speaker 2 (04:29:30):
I would have called Shenanigan's on you on that one.

Speaker 1 (04:29:32):
Well, we've included TV episodes in the past, but I
thought about that because I feel like that's when they
broke really big in the larger pop culture spectrum, was
with that movie. But then but then I didn't, so
that was a thought.

Speaker 3 (04:29:48):
I had that thought, all right.

Speaker 2 (04:29:49):
Thanks so much for listening. This has been geek history lesson.
I am Jason, Homo superior M.

Speaker 1 (04:29:55):
I am Ashley Victoria Robinson and Professor Jason. Would you
please dismiss the class?

Speaker 2 (04:30:00):
I was dismissed.

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