Does it Matter Who Wears the Mask Captain America with Jonathan London

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
Does it matter who wears the mask. So we're talking
about legacy characters. A legacy character is a character whose
identity is passed down to them from an older character
in the form of a title, a job, or a
persona for a newer character to assume. And there are
many ways that can come about. Now we are tying

(00:32):
this into Captain America Brave New World, because it's the
idea of Sam Wilson stepping into the role of Captain
America after Steve Rodgers in the Marvel Cinematic universe. But Jonathan,
our guest, I have to throw it to you immediately
out the gate. Yes, we have a guest. Everybody. Why
do you think audiences care so much about who inherits

(00:53):
a mantle like Captain America or even Batman.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
I think the same reason that people loves her realized
content is the familiarity of it. And while they love
the familiarity of it and they love the idea that
when they're going to put down a certain amount of
dollars for a product they want the same quality, they
do also like being surprised, and so you have to
find that balance between the twists and turns of an

(01:18):
engaging storyline that continues, and then the fact that these
characters are all stuck in some form of a second act.
And it gets really really tricky when you pass the
mantle onto a new character or an old character that
you're familiar with but just not in that light. And
they've been handled in a great way, and they've sometimes

(01:39):
been handled you surprisingly, you know, unpredictable way where the
audiences didn't react. But I think we go to comboo
stores and we pick up our comics. We love these characters.
We sit down in our seats with our popcorn for
the familiarity of them, and we also want to get
that jump. It's a hard balance.

Speaker 1 (01:58):
What do you mean by the jump?

Speaker 2 (02:00):
Well, when you start to see a twist and turn right,
like when you have a major character death that you
didn't know about, when you have somebody inheriting a mantle,
when you called into the kill Robin hotline and with
a diverer and it narrowly went a different way and
you end up seeing a Robin get beat with a crowbar.

(02:24):
I mean, Robin's a great character, and I know you
love Robin.

Speaker 1 (02:28):
Actually, when there's n.

Speaker 3 (02:31):
The one who is Robin right now is the worst.

Speaker 2 (02:34):
Well, those are surprises. People were surprised that the DC
actually went through with the Joker beating Jason Todd with
a crowbar in a comic book, and like, thanks, I
mean Frank Miller and Nel Adams, those guys like laid
the groundwork for that. I'm sure Batman that really led
to death in the family. But we now have that

(02:55):
in the Captain America books, where you're going to shoot
Steve Rodgers on the steps of the cap You're going
to have these events happen where Bucky comes back and
he's our Russian asset. And I think that stuff is great,
and this stuff was really surprising, and the sales reflected
it ed Bruce Baker's run on Captain America where you
find out Bucky is the Winter Soldier. Those are the surprises.

(03:17):
That's a careful dance because people held the legacy of
Bucky's death and sacrifice trying to stop Baron's Emo's missile,
like people held that as Cannon is there like biblically,
this is the origin story of Captain America. This is
how he lost Bucky. And so if you don't handle

(03:37):
that perfectly, even though you want to give people a surprise,
even though you want to fully move these characters along
their second acts. Yeah, you can really fumble.

Speaker 1 (03:47):
Well, speaking of fumbles and perfect dances, that's also what
podcasts are doing. So and welcome everybody to Geek History Lesson.
I'm Jason Inman, I'm Ashy Victoria Robinson. Welcome to your
Mind University because you have stumbled onto the podcast where
we take one your construct or idea from popular culture
and beat it to death with the Crowboer in about
an hour, as hosted by a screenwriter from Kansas, that's Jason,

(04:09):
and a comic writer from Canada that's me and another disciplinary,
multi hyphen ish screenwriter who we bully into coming on
and joining us sometimes. Yeah, well, today we're talking about
basically legacy characters. We're talking about legacy characters taking over
new mantles, you know, and really this forming question does
it matter who wears the mask? Does it matter? Is

(04:29):
the title more important? Is the character more important? And again
we're celebrating Captain America Brave New World, one of the
most oppressive and scary titles I've ever heard for a
superhero movie.

Speaker 4 (04:41):
Yeah, I mean, if you've done your Grade ten literature
reading you're like, oh, I see, this is going to
be a real jaunt through the metah dystopia.

Speaker 1 (04:52):
So we have the perfect person to talk about stuff
like this is a good old comic book Nerd of
our our that we known for a very long time.
You've heard him on the this podcast before. I think
you were in the Deadpool episode I believe, but a
couple other episodes beyond that.

Speaker 3 (05:05):
I think Stanley story.

Speaker 2 (05:07):
Stanley's stories in maybe like either a Jarvis or one
of the butlers.

Speaker 1 (05:12):
Yeah, Jarvis, Yeah, you recognize this voice we have. He
is a director, he's the host of the Geekscape podcast,
and he is a writer of a super cool comic
book coming up called Paul London, Hero of the Prophecy
Number one. We're welcome back to the podcast, Jonathan London, sir, welcome.

Speaker 2 (05:28):
I swear to god, if you were going to hand
me the podcast like a mantle, I was going to
be like, I can't.

Speaker 1 (05:34):
So the follow up question I do have for that is,
are you the first Jonathan London or the second? Which one?
Are you?

Speaker 2 (05:40):
Uh? There's a guy who's you'll see him sometimes on benches.
He does real state here in la and he's a
Jonathan London.

Speaker 1 (05:49):
There's a Jason Inman who works for Marvel Commers. I
was going to say for Marvel Studio. Technically I'm the
second Jason Edmond. Yeah, because there is a second ad
who has been on every Marvel movie for almost the
last ten years and is Jason. They fight on the
im Yeah, we flip back and forth. Our star meeters
on IMDb all the time.

Speaker 2 (06:06):
There is a children's book author who does the Froggy
Books whose name is Jonathan London, and he is an
older gentleman and he's really sweet. Because about once every
a couple of months, I'll get an email from a
librarian who wants me to come guests and read.

Speaker 1 (06:20):
Oh, and they thank you.

Speaker 2 (06:21):
They're like, can you please come. They're like, we'd love
to have you as a guest to our school and
read the Froggy Books or one of your books to
the kindergarteners and or the first graders. In the books
are great. The books are great, and I have to
ford them onto him and his publisher and they're really
gracious about that.

Speaker 1 (06:37):
And we talked about you have a w NBA player.

Speaker 4 (06:40):
Yeah, his name is Ashi Robinson. She lives in La
I would like to meet her, So why I'm Ashley
Victoria Robinson. She's bigger than me and could definitely fight
me physically and the SEO battle. So if nyone knows her,
hook us and I follow her on Instagram, she does
not follow me back.

Speaker 3 (06:53):
But when I was.

Speaker 4 (06:54):
A student at the University of Ottawa, I do have
more Instagram follows than her, though just a flexent. When
I was a student at the University of Ottawa, I
also had to make sure that he used my middle
name on my paperwork because there were five other Ashley Robinson's.
So thanks, Mom and Dad.

Speaker 1 (07:10):
Well, see this is where so we all have legacy
characters of our own, we all have doppelgangers out there,
and so we're going to drop into a little bit
of a ten cent origin here of what a legacy
character is. And when I was doing the research for this,
I was shocked at where I found what I think
is the best explanation of what a legacy character is.

(07:31):
It is a quote from a movie, and a movie
you may not expect in Dragons No, So here is
the best explanation from a character talking about inheriting a
mannal and explaining what a legacy character is and I quote,
I'll tell you what the movie is after this quote
and I quote, Roberts had grown so rich he wanted

(07:53):
to retire. He took me to his cabin and he
told me his secret. I am not the dread pirate Roberts,
he said, my name is Ryan. I inherited the ship
from the previous dread pirate Roberts, just as you will
inherit it from me. The man I inherited it from
is not the real dread pirate Roberts either. His name
was Cumberbund. The real Roberts had been retired fifteen years

(08:16):
and living like a king in Patagonia. Then he explained,
the name is the most important thing to inspire the
necessary fear. You see, no one would ever surrender to
the dread pirate Wesley. And that is from The Princess Bride.
Literally the best explanation of legacy characters, I think in
all of media's this.

Speaker 2 (08:36):
Is William Goldman.

Speaker 3 (08:37):
Yeah, one of the finest American writers of ours.

Speaker 1 (08:42):
So again, like just like you know, there's a lot
of tropes when it comes to legacy characters, and in
these explanations I found that a lot of ways that
this can happen. Some of the common tropes are a
mentor can pass their mantle on to their sidekick. A
sidekick is written out of the story and the mentor
chooses a new person to take on the psychic's mantle.
A character learns of their predecessor's legacy and is inspired

(09:05):
to take up the mantle of their own. The character
is a chosen one and a long line of other
chosen ones or the legacy is a title or code
name passed along to every person to hold the position,
regardless of relation, and it becomes the primary identity, similar
to what I was just discovering with the Pirate Roberts.
So we should start off with Captain America. It's being

(09:27):
one of the most prominent ones, Steve Rogers being the
original Captain America. And in the comic books we have
seen Bucky Barnes took up the mantle and Sam Westle
took up the mantle, and now we are in an
era of the MCU where Sam Wilson is now going
to take up the mantle of Captain America. But actually
I want to ask you why why do legacy characters exist?

(09:48):
I mean, I know we jumped into this again, the
idea of like do the masks really matter?

Speaker 4 (09:54):
Captain America is particularly interesting and for another reason that
Jonathan illustrated in the intro, and that is that Captain
America also has a ret con where Steve Rodgers is
a legacy character because Isaiah Bradley, through retcon, is actually.

Speaker 3 (10:09):
The first Captain America.

Speaker 4 (10:10):
And even though Eli is Patriot his grandson, he also
sort of in that Captain America family.

Speaker 1 (10:18):
So it's.

Speaker 4 (10:20):
Yeah, everyone's favorite, ye so, But so with the Bradley's
you get you get both the sort of the family
inheritance line, but then the inheritance of the mantle at
the same time, which is kind of like a unique thing.
Batman does sort of the same thing with bringing in
Damian Wayne and Bruce Wayne with the Robin Mansel. But
legacy characters I think are really interesting in terms of

(10:42):
comic books, specifically because they're a late invention because like,
yeah Robin, yeah, kid Flash, yeah, aqualad. But it's not
until the eighties really when any of those characters step
up and take over. They're all they're all just like
kid kid folks, sidekicks, and what's special about those and
the reason that like Dick Grayson stands the test of

(11:05):
time as one of the breakout favorite characters, and I
still can't believe we don't have a movie about him.
Is because they're easily your audience POV characters. We all
aspire first, hopefully you aspire to be your parents or
some community leader, someone who really puts an impact on
your child. Absolutely and get physically and emotionally abused for
your entire lesson. But then you know later like when

(11:28):
when when you come into comics in like a post
crisis on Infinite Earth's world where like Superman is dying,
so it's like, well, who's going to be Superman? And
like Batman gets his back broken, so who's going to
be Batman? And you're like, oh, you can actually achieve
not only being his best friend, but you can be
the person you know or wonder woman, like with Donna Troy.

Speaker 3 (11:49):
Like, so it becomes this aspirational thing.

Speaker 4 (11:52):
And what I think is important about them sort of
structurally in comic books is it gives us another demarcation
and turning point in the.

Speaker 3 (11:59):
Perpetual side act.

Speaker 4 (12:00):
Because of that storytelling trap, it's hard for characters to
change and mantles and passing on mantles is one of
the only ways to d markeate like time has passed,
you have earned something, you've graduated, because otherwise it's just
like well, I guess they're not married anymore, so like it's.

Speaker 2 (12:18):
Hard Peter Parker, Mary Jane again.

Speaker 1 (12:20):
Yeah, you know. I think one of the most important
mantles though, is uh, Patreon is a patron of a podcast.
That's why you should come over everybody. Yeah, that's a
great transition, right, Like you both looked at me like
this was terrible.

Speaker 2 (12:31):
I came over to your place. Am I paying for
the you are?

Speaker 1 (12:37):
Come over to patreon dot com slash john on that's
JAWII in support the podcast. Get some ad free episodes,
Get a podcast exclusive discord, some bonus podcasts like Titan
Titans where Ashley and Diego are going through the Teen
Titans animated series.

Speaker 4 (12:49):
All legacy characters, all the time. Baby, And we're gonna
have a GHL extra we do every week.

Speaker 1 (12:53):
We're gonna have with Jonathan and we're gonna get some
in I'm just gonna give you the the topic of
this week's episode. It's gonna get some industry talk and
Jonathan has been working in this biz longer than anybody
I have known.

Speaker 3 (13:05):
And has done more varied and interesting and impressive things.

Speaker 1 (13:09):
We're going to hear some very interesting Like I said,
Jonathan is a film director everybody. So we're going to
get some really insightful industry talk here. So come on over,
you know, to Patreon dot com slash jaw and support
the podcast and take up that mantle if you will.

Speaker 2 (13:22):
And bring a piece of paper and a pencil, because
we're gonna be doing storyboards, shats, floor.

Speaker 3 (13:27):
Plans and you will get a great to be all right, So.

Speaker 1 (13:31):
Let's start off in comics here, and I want to
open this to everybody. I have a whole list here
of different characters and their legacy sort of characters that
took up their mantles in comic books, and I just
want to free smash pass yeah, and get.

Speaker 2 (13:45):
Some we're talking about Robin ready, I love sport, right
all right, Steve Rogers, smash your pass, Pass pass, Sam Wilson, smash.

Speaker 1 (14:00):
I'm saying I'm gonna pass.

Speaker 2 (14:01):
I'm gonna pass on you, and like half the people
on Facebook at the.

Speaker 1 (14:04):
Moment, Bucky Barnes, I'm a pass.

Speaker 2 (14:07):
He's I'm a pass, as well.

Speaker 1 (14:08):
Yeah, I'm a pass on for me. Yeah, but okay,
so let's talk about this. Okay, Captain America on Friends,
Captain America. Uh, the mantle of Captain America. Do we
like Sam? Do we like Bucky? I'm sticking to the
comics right now. Who do you think is the better
legacy Captain America of those two? And there is no
right or wrong answer here.

Speaker 2 (14:28):
It depends if your Marxist or not.

Speaker 4 (14:30):
No, let's say I just think the idea of a
national based superhero is reductive.

Speaker 1 (14:40):
Let's say, let's say you don't hang on that one
quarter of Reddit.

Speaker 2 (14:45):
I mean, I saw that. I was on Facebook and
I saw the trailer for Brave New World come up,
and I love it, Like I'm so excited. I love
Sam Wilson as Captain America, and I love the maturation
of the title. I love that it's about the symbolism,
not necessarily the individual, which is also why I liked
those portions of a Falcon Winter Soldier, because it was

(15:07):
that conversation about the responsibility and of course there's a
mention it's like the Captain America. And I was like, Okay,
don't go see the movie. Just don't go see the
movie seven year old guy who took a profile picture
in the front of your truck.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
Like holding a Fish's wrong with a profile picture in
front of a truck. I'm just going, you know, don't
Is it a GMC, then it's a bonus point on
that is Like.

Speaker 2 (15:31):
I think that ultimately Sam is a well first off,
Like people who were watching that trailer and saying, how
can you go a toe to toe with the red
Hook don't know how vibranium works. It's a sto given
by Wakanda. It absorbs the power that the Hulks maxim
with and it's like, okay, let's give it back. Like

(15:51):
that is a robranium suit. It allows him to fly
at mark speeds, do all that stuff. And it's also
a combook movie. Don't be commenting on it, you know,
you old man in front of your truck.

Speaker 1 (15:59):
It's in seeing the thing. And again if that GMS,
if it's GMC, I'm totally fine with that picture.

Speaker 2 (16:05):
In the front seat of their car, like they spent
the night there after having an argument with their wife
after the.

Speaker 1 (16:10):
Pool hall and they they sucked a dart.

Speaker 2 (16:13):
Well, I guess I'll take my own.

Speaker 1 (16:16):
Can you tell that I've been to many of those
pool halls. I know exactly what you're talking about, you know,
as one of the hosts of this podcast, I will
I will, I will check mark the elephant in the room,
because I will say that, like reading the comic books,
I really loved Bucky as Captain America. And I think
the Sam Wilson com of a grun By, I think
it's nix. It's pretty.

Speaker 3 (16:35):
I introduced it.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
Yeah, it's really good. I think it's really hell by
the way, Uh, Sam's costume is flipping awesome.

Speaker 4 (16:40):
Sam SAMs cassumer costume is great, and Anthony Mackie looks great.
It's one of the it's one of the few costumes
that really translates well on screen.

Speaker 1 (16:48):
Yeah, it's the thing, like I will say, is like
seeing the trailer of the movie, I kind of wish
they had stuck with the more white But anyways, whatever,
we nerd stuff figure when I when that moment happened
an end game, when Steve gave when Steve gave his
shield to Bucky, Sam his shield of Sam. Sorry everybody,
I'm noticing a bunch of static on my mic right now,

(17:10):
and so I apologize for this if I sound really crappy,
but I'll finish this. It's just I'll finish this point. Yeah, yeah,
I think giving the mantle to Anthony Mackie Captain America
is the right move in a post twenty twenty world.

Speaker 4 (17:24):
I think because you pose the original question of is
is it in the comic books? In the comic books, absolutely,
Bucky is the superior legacy character and the superior Captain America.
And I'll make fighting words the best Captain America run
as the Bucky run. Bucky is the best Captain in America.

Speaker 3 (17:46):
He has the best Captain America suit. That's a sick
action figure. The helmet looks great. But in the world
of the MCU, the film television.

Speaker 4 (17:55):
I know you're trying to make it a multimedia experience,
but it's a film universe. We just Sam Wilson is
the correct character.

Speaker 1 (18:02):
Have the story journey with Bucky in the movies yet?

Speaker 4 (18:06):
Yeah, And if you if you want to actually me,
I'll actually right back and say, if you watch Captain
America The Winter Soldier, which is the second Captain America
movie within the confines of Steve Rogers, ask Captain America
as an Avenger. Sam Wilson is his ally first. He's
his ally from a very early point in that movie.
It takes Bucky several many more movies to get on

(18:29):
board because yes, he is Steve's ally when they're when
he's Captain America enrolled in the World War. But that's
however many years I don't understand the roving timeline of
the MCU. Everything is apparently in twenty fifteen.

Speaker 2 (18:41):
Still he also try to kill you know, the star.
He's involved in killing the Starks. He's of yeah, yeah,
I mean he was a Russian asset for the majority
of the time that he existed. And that's why Bucky,
you know, especially when he like raises a gun, a
machine gun. Some of the things that I don't think
are part of the Captain America iconography because the shield
is so important as a sim I'm like, okay, well

(19:02):
Bucky just isn't. And when the same cap.

Speaker 1 (19:04):
And when you and when you think about, like you know,
the movie stuff, the idea of having a Captain America
with wings and a shield is an incredible visual.

Speaker 3 (19:13):
It's so sick.

Speaker 4 (19:14):
But also Bucky's Winter Soldier costume is cooler than every
Captain America costume, so so having that visually, even though
they keep sort of ratcheting back what's interesting visually about
I'm like, just give me the arm and the face paint.

Speaker 3 (19:29):
That's what I want.

Speaker 1 (19:29):
Well, speaking of stuff that's visually and interesting, we're going
to decide who has the better mantle of Spider Man first.

Speaker 3 (19:39):
That's fighting words.

Speaker 1 (19:40):
We got to go to some messages. All right, g JO,
we're back. We fiddled some wires, like Spider Man plays
with those webs and I hope my mic sounds better.
And if it doesn't, well then go to hell. All
you people in those pickup trucks unless you drive.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
A Arnamzola who is riding in.

Speaker 1 (19:54):
The computer, unless you drive a GMC, then I'm fine.

Speaker 3 (19:56):
It does It does feel very trug.

Speaker 4 (19:58):
It does feel very point to Artazola picked the only
veteran to mess with that incontinuity.

Speaker 2 (20:06):
He's tried to get you for the last fifteen years. Yes,
can I just say it's something about the ending of
and game. It's the one thing that sticks with me
in game?

Speaker 3 (20:15):
Okay, So, and they never made a Marvel movie ever again,
And I get and I.

Speaker 2 (20:19):
Get it, and Ashley, you're right, you can't think too
much about it because your brainal crack. But Steve Rodgers
to go back to be with Peggy and live his
life with Peggy. He goes back to a timeline in
which his Steve Rodgers is also trapped in the ice. Yep,
there's is Steve Rodgers there that crashed in the ice.
And Steve goes back knowing where the other Steve Rogers

(20:39):
is frozen for all that time. What did he do
with that Steve Rodgers? I think he dug him out
and fed him to polar bears.

Speaker 1 (20:44):
I was gonna, I think. I think Peggy and Steve
see he has to wait for modern technology to catch up, right,
because he also.

Speaker 2 (20:52):
Is racing up against somebody discovering that Steve. But so
he can't sit too.

Speaker 1 (20:55):
But they're not they're not. They didn't. They didn't make
body sized freezers. I think until about the six he's
so he has to wait like twenty years or he's got.

Speaker 3 (21:02):
To go full like Edgian people.

Speaker 2 (21:04):
Then Sam's like, did you chip it icy with this
freaking shield for like ten years?

Speaker 1 (21:09):
I think I think he was like, yeah, he was
like waiting until the nineteen sixties. He got the recent
sears robut catalog. He was like, bingo, there it is.
He ordered a house, He ordered a house, an eight
foot freezer. Then he went up there, dug himself up,
and then he and then he put that freezer in there.
And then then here's the kicker. I think he waited
until his fortieth anniversary in the nineteen eighties and Peggy's like, oh,
what would you what do you want to do for

(21:29):
a fortieth anniversary, Steve? And he was like, well, honestly,
and here comes Steve number two out of the garage.

Speaker 2 (21:38):
Gift to you, buggy, some weird stuff.

Speaker 4 (21:41):
Look, and we've been hit the haleyat well, I get it.

Speaker 1 (21:44):
And then he had to punch that Steve out and
then go refreezing.

Speaker 5 (21:49):
Because like that at the end of that game, understand
that before it comes back as as Biden's cap, he
looks like he goes back to a timeline that has
a Steve.

Speaker 1 (22:01):
So the real answer I think here is is that
if you have a two, if you have to Steve Rogers,
it's a double smash.

Speaker 2 (22:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (22:07):
And then and then and then only fans got intruders,
and he was like, dang it, we should have held out.

Speaker 1 (22:12):
Not only is he the best captain in America? He's
the best husband.

Speaker 3 (22:15):
He's definitely the best husband.

Speaker 2 (22:17):
Can that be in doomsday?

Speaker 1 (22:19):
I wish you know what, I would buy every Marvel
ticket five times if that storyline shows up.

Speaker 2 (22:25):
I think that's the secret war.

Speaker 1 (22:29):
The two Caps and which cap gets Peggy?

Speaker 2 (22:32):
Wow?

Speaker 1 (22:34):
You know what? I would cause it a multiversal war
over Haley Ott. Well, I'll tell you that right now.

Speaker 3 (22:37):
I was like, we've all seen Haley out well, I
get it.

Speaker 2 (22:39):
And you heard the signed on for that movie anyway,
so we're getting we're getting scene, all right.

Speaker 1 (22:44):
So let's talk about some legacy stuff here. A weird,
interesting character that you would not expect to have a
legacy title is now Spider Man. We now have Peter
Ben Riley.

Speaker 2 (22:53):
Ben Riley had according to the Jackal, we've had a
legacy for a long time.

Speaker 1 (22:58):
Ben Riley is the real Spider Man. Let's just to
be He's the real spot.

Speaker 3 (23:02):
He's may Day's uncle Ben.

Speaker 1 (23:04):
But Miles Morales a completely different Spider Man that is
not related to Peter, not a sidekick, not is a
legacy Spider Man.

Speaker 3 (23:13):
So is Gwenn Stacy and for and for.

Speaker 1 (23:15):
A lot of kids Cindy Moon and a lot of
kids that will play that video game and have seen
Spider Verse, Miles will be their Spider Man, not Peter.

Speaker 2 (23:22):
Yeah, I love it.

Speaker 3 (23:23):
I love it too, so is whoever is a Ronnie?
I can't remember her.

Speaker 1 (23:26):
And I love Peter Parker, but there's there's a part
of me where I'd be, like, you know what, I
would be totally fine if they just retired Peter and
Miles was the only Spider Man.

Speaker 3 (23:33):
No, Peter needs to be Peter B.

Speaker 1 (23:35):
Parker.

Speaker 4 (23:35):
The best person needs to be Spider Man, and Miles
can be like the hot young Here's a Buckshot, but
that's definitely not the world.

Speaker 2 (23:43):
I one best comic on the stands right now. The
best Spider Man comic on the stands is where Peter
is a father.

Speaker 5 (23:47):
Yea.

Speaker 2 (23:47):
It is the ultimate Hickman stuff, and that one is great.
And he has two kids with MJ and they're in
a pocket universe that the maker created and I'm not
love to much with it. It's a lot to cover,
and you know I like that. I love Hickman's ending
in Secret War to what he did with the Ultimate

(24:08):
Universe and everything, So I don't totally love it being revisited,
but I understand why it was again stuck in the
second act, and that's all good. But man, that Ultimate
Spider Man is just well written. I think the stuff
with him and Harry and the Kingpin and the Sinister Six,
and especially the stuff with him and MJ and his kids.
I think that stuff is great. It's the best version
of Peter on the stands right now, best Spider Man

(24:28):
book on the stands.

Speaker 1 (24:29):
But here's another legacy group that a lot of people
don't consider. Green lanterns. Yeah, we have Alan Scott, hal Jordan,
John Stewart, Guy Gardner, Kyle Rayner, just soronic not to
Jessica just good. I can't rememberize that who does?

Speaker 2 (24:48):
Who doesn't accept those? Simon Baz is.

Speaker 1 (24:50):
No, But I've been just saying like it's another one
where it's like it's sort of like it is. It
is like it's a rank. It's just great. Yeah, yeah,
who is? Who's Who's your favorite green lantern? Jonathan?

Speaker 2 (24:58):
I don't know. I'm I am a traditionalist, like I
do like how but if you were.

Speaker 3 (25:03):
A traditionalists, you'd like Alan Scott. I'm actually.

Speaker 2 (25:09):
Smell for me, Alan Scott, smash absolutely Smash. He's handsome
and wow, we all love Tim Sheridan wrote.

Speaker 4 (25:24):
A radio Tim Sheridan Smash.

Speaker 1 (25:26):
Smash Glad nominated Tim Sheridan, Tim Sheridan Smash.

Speaker 2 (25:31):
I talked to Tim yesterday and Smash Times Fun with
Steve Rogers. Multimately, like I would start going towards the
weird green lanterns. I was like, do I have to
pick a green lantern from It's going to be killing
walk great killer, It's gonna be somebody silly.

Speaker 1 (25:50):
Again, listeners, not I have I have a Kyle Rayner
poster in this room. It's a Kyle Rayner for me.

Speaker 2 (25:57):
Way, Yeah, he's great and you're an artist and he's
a artist and sensitive and they have done your time.

Speaker 3 (26:03):
And you're white and he's mixed.

Speaker 1 (26:04):
Friends and I've never lived in North Hollywood and he
lives in North Hollywood.

Speaker 3 (26:09):
You're and I've never been inside a fridge.

Speaker 1 (26:12):
Now, like.

Speaker 2 (26:16):
Jason was going to talk about the lack of cooking.

Speaker 1 (26:19):
Kidding, Actually, who's your favorite green lantern?

Speaker 2 (26:22):
Uh?

Speaker 4 (26:22):
Saronic Nazu probably even though she's been a yellowlantern for
like one hundred years. But Kyle, my favorite orange lantern
is Glomulus, who is a contract of a ring, so
he is definitely hilarious.

Speaker 1 (26:34):
It's a legacy character, all right. So now here's another
character that I'm surprised that we are at with a
legacy in a Mantle Batman. We have Bruce Wayne, Dick Grayson,
Terry McGinnis, and then everyone's favorite Jean Paul.

Speaker 3 (26:47):
I was going to say, don't forget your nineties plays.

Speaker 2 (26:49):
Yeah, and if you go multiverse, Thomas and that is
one word.

Speaker 3 (26:52):
Also, Karen Kelly has been Batman.

Speaker 1 (26:55):
Yes, that is also an interesting one where, you know,
especially in the main universe, each iteration of Batman is
very distinct and almost almost represents like the time period
that they were created. Yeah, you know, like Dick Grayson
is very like twenty ten's Batman. You know, terrym guinness
is a very nineties batch, John Ball Valley is extreme
comics Battle.

Speaker 4 (27:15):
I mean, Terry McGuinness is so Batman created in a
post Matrix universe, it's not even funny.

Speaker 2 (27:20):
I think you get that with Green and Era too.
And I talk about Speedy's addiction.

Speaker 3 (27:25):
Like I think, I think and then and then Connor
Hawk like later.

Speaker 2 (27:28):
Yeah, I think you get that with the Captain Americas too,
And I think ultimately when you, uh man, I'm trying
to avoid politics on this one. The escape is especially
with the Captain America and especially the phases of giving
it to a black man or giving it to a
former Russian asset and trust in the government and John
Walker and the whole thing. But the truth is, like
we started getting these legacy characters when the audience for

(27:51):
comics started aging out of them, and you try to
attract new kids. So as you're moving into like the
Silver age, and you know, once we're in Bronze Age
and you start like snapping Gwen Stacy's neck and stuff
like that, I think that you have at least the
Marvel fans are now in college or in Vietnam. Yeah,
the fans who picked up Fantastic four number one, the

(28:14):
ones who picked up the first Spider Man's there are
now in college or they're in Vietnam. And you needed
to reflect that, and then you also needed to catch
new kids. And so that's when you start seeing these
legacy characters.

Speaker 1 (28:25):
And because yeah, we should stay for listeners, and we
say this, we said this in a previous episode recently
that like comic books used to be designed that it
was like every five years, a new generation of kids,
We're going to read comic books and because the previous
generation had suddenly discovered boys or girls or a second
Steve Rodgers, yeah, and decided that that's what I want
to read or look at now.

Speaker 3 (28:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:46):
Can you imagine a time when like the lesion of
superheroes would have been the most popular, Yeah, on the stands.

Speaker 1 (28:51):
Yeah, that's the seven is Jazam Captain Marvel was the
biggest hero, biggest comic book of the nineteen fifties. It
was Shazam.

Speaker 2 (28:58):
Yeah, like child in powerm yeah, kind of stuff, child
and pairmoun slash engagement. And that has a lot to
do with these mantles changing. Yeah, and we have to
talk about that because that's where Grayson came from originally.
Well that's a super boy.

Speaker 4 (29:13):
Okay, so look at that, But look at the evolution
even of the Teen Titans from like the Teen Titans
of nineteen sixty four are basically like four kids running
around flight Nastaro and then you get the Wolfman Perez,
silver age stuff, bronze age scharting like in the nineteen eighties,
where characters are maturing and they're having intimate relationships and
they are suffering like addiction, and they're like they're having

(29:36):
very it's very like second wave feminism, social uprising, Like
it's very reflective of what America was as it was settling.

Speaker 3 (29:44):
Out of the sixties and seventies.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
Well, let's talk about this, Okay. I just gave you
a whole bunch of examples, and there doesn't it doesn't
have to be any the examples I just gave you.
But of the examples we talked about or when I
did not, is there any of those examples that for
you inherently changed that hero or that antle into kind
of a different character and that you liked or disliked.
I mean, night Wing is the easiest, right, the easiest

(30:06):
because Batman game Happy go Lucky almost in a in
a way.

Speaker 3 (30:09):
No, no, no, I mean like because Dick Grayson becoming night Wing.

Speaker 1 (30:12):
Oh okay, yeah, going from Robin the.

Speaker 3 (30:14):
Nightway, going from Robin to night Wing.

Speaker 4 (30:17):
Like he even gets his own city and he gets
a job, and he gets a whole life an identity
that is, uh, it's not contingental. It's sort of parallel
in compliment to Batman, instead of derived from and then yes,
when he does become Batman, you're inverting the dynamic, right,
which is what Graham Morrison like stated that they wanted
to do with bringing on Damian Wayne the biggest mistake

(30:38):
in all of comic book history.

Speaker 2 (30:43):
He's damaged.

Speaker 1 (30:45):
He's coming up on his like twentieth anniversary, pretty sill.

Speaker 2 (30:48):
In his movie.

Speaker 1 (30:49):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, whole bunch of Oh. I've
been saying that for ten years. Where I was like,
as soon as they introduced Damien, I was like, he's
going to be the next on screen Robin we see,
just because most of the public thinks that Robin is
Batman's son.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
Yeah, And the most important thing is that Robin is
such a reminder of the way Bruce could have gone. Yeah,
the night his father his parents were killed, and and
he's the light and he's the hope and he's the
goodness and Damien it's just so not And of course
is Bruce to be that and we'll see how it is.
I mean, I can't wait. I love seeing I mean,

(31:23):
I told you guys, I watched all the Sony Spider
Verse Spider Liist verse movies. Yeah, and like, I just
keep thinking about being in high school, middle school, wanting
all these characters bey on screen, and I'll buy a
ticket for all of them. I'm that sucker, And whether
I like him or not, I just think it's cool
to see some versions of them on screen. I actually

(31:43):
like parts of almost every one of these movies, even
though sometimes I don't like most of those movies. But
I think it's cool and I can't wait for Damien
on screen. I think Miles Morales for me, changed as
a legacy character, as a character period. I think he
just changed the dynamic of He brought in a whole
younger audience, a new audience, and an audience that wasn't

(32:06):
a white says audience. Uh. He brought in an audience
that like it, spoke to them. It brought Spider Man
into the new century, and it didn't. It did it
without Peter giving up Spider Man, and it gave him
a little bit of a mentorship. Obviously, the Ultimate Spider
Man was killed, that Peter died, but we now have

(32:27):
him and Peter have a relationship now, and you got
him training and now we've got Spider Boy, and we
got different iterations. I think it's also important to think
about replacements on teams, like when she joined the Fantastic
Four when the Thing was a member of it, I
thought that was really cool and important.

Speaker 4 (32:44):
I like also has a whole Fantastic Four team where
the family goes to space.

Speaker 2 (32:49):
And so because my so.

Speaker 1 (32:51):
Drew that run Man Man and then Crystal Humans It's.

Speaker 2 (32:57):
Girlfriend, crystalduced super cool and I had fun with them.

Speaker 1 (33:03):
But Crystal was also in the f F as well. Yeah,
I think there. Doctor Doom technically is an f F member.

Speaker 2 (33:08):
By the way, as well, it goes back to the
Champions and go back to the Defenders. These these revolving
door lineups where it keeps it exciting again. You're going
to keep reading these long comics and these long runs.
You have to change the lineups a little bit. You
have to shift mantles. You've got to have a rotating
door sometimes. Let's keep in mind like Cap isn't on

(33:30):
the first issue.

Speaker 1 (33:31):
Of the Interesting, he doesn't four, he.

Speaker 2 (33:33):
Doesn't get him frozen for a while, and sadly there's
another Katin America in the distance between the Avengers unfreeze them.
Knowing that he came from a future time. I'm kidd
I'm talking about endgaming.

Speaker 1 (33:46):
He's in the freezers.

Speaker 2 (33:49):
Watch an end game. I'm like something, but this is creepy.

Speaker 1 (33:51):
Man.

Speaker 2 (33:53):
Down with this, Sam, don't do it. Don't trust that guy.
He hate the other cat in America. He took his girl.

Speaker 1 (34:01):
Well, something that I am excited about that I want
to throw out to everybody, is that Jonathan you speaking
of a Mantle legacy because you have a book coming
out called Hero the Prophecy. But it's called Paul London,
Hero of the Prophecy. But here are the Prophecy could
be a Mantle It is.

Speaker 2 (34:16):
Tell us about this.

Speaker 1 (34:17):
Comic book man, you got coming out, this pro wrestling
fantasy comic book. The art is great, think you It
feels like a nineteen eighties meets Lord meets Conan the
Barbarian meets comic books. But like, tell us about Paul London,
Hero of the Prophecy that you got hitting Kickstarter soon.

Speaker 2 (34:33):
Well, Paul's my brother, my younger brother, Paul.

Speaker 1 (34:35):
The comic book character. Paul is your brother real? Sorry,
I just trying to think. I know, I know your brother,
I met him.

Speaker 2 (34:42):
It gets confusing, and I think it was funny to
me to put Paul London here the Prophecy in the
book and you've read it and you know that like
someone in the book, they refer to the here of
the Prophecy and I throw the logo back in there.
But it's not It doesn't have Paul London on it
because they don't he hasn't come to the planet yet.
But basically it's very Galaxy quest Is Me Goes. It's
a sorry about a pro wrestler from Earth who gets

(35:03):
mistaken as a real fighter offense wrestlers, and and basically
a fantasy world like Krull beast Master Willow, all the
eighties stuff that you reference that I love. Uh. They
see wrestling through a portal and they need to be
freed from an evil wizard, and they summon who they

(35:25):
think is the hero of the Prophecy, who's this pro
wrestler they see wrestling and I think it's real, and
they summoned him and he shows up and he's like, guys,
is not real. You brought me here basically to die.
I don't stay alive. And then you start to think, like,
I don't know. I don't want to throw too much away.
Especially in the first issue. They realize very quickly that

(35:46):
this guy is not a good fighter. He is there
basically narrowly avoiding death. They've summoned this guy who pantomimes
and it's fun. I base it on my brother. It
is my brother. My brother went through and did a
stan Lee style pass on the dialogue and in the
writing to make sure that everything was up to par

(36:06):
and wrestling because my brother is a pro wrestler. He
spent a lot of time in the WWE. He held
their tag team belts.

Speaker 1 (36:13):
Yeah, just listeners, I want to let you know that
I didn't know this, but in terms of doing a
little bit of research for this podcast, Paul London has
a Wikipedia entry.

Speaker 2 (36:20):
Like, Paul has a much bigger fits base than I'll
ever Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean he was on the
one of the biggest wrestling show on TV. I mean
he was on Ron SmackDown for a long time and
again he held the cruiseweight belt. He held the tag
belts twice. He was the longest running tag champ with
Brian Kendrick. Brand New Day. Guys, that's a different title.

(36:40):
Is a tag title, but you can be like no
Brand New Days. The longest running is like, it's a
different title, guys. They changed the names of the titles.
They changed the shows that those titles are on. It's
a different roster.

Speaker 4 (36:49):
I actually love the Jonathan is ready to I'm actually
wresting love.

Speaker 2 (36:53):
The Brand New Day guys, and uh, I don't.

Speaker 1 (36:56):
Really, I'm gonna say I'm gonna say this too. Really,
Brand New Day not terrible.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
Because Paul has been wanting to be a He wanted
to be a pro wrestler since she was what five,
the same way that I got into comics, he got
in pro wrestling and he achieved it. He got into it.
And then as he aged and the business changed, and
you realize cruiser weights and people of his size, they're
not getting the big opportunities in WWE. Not at the

(37:21):
time that he was wrestling, things just started to shift,
whether it was a relationship with vincick Mann or his
relationship with the people who ran the rosters. When he
went from smack down to raw, different things shifted and
there wasn't a place in the company anymore. And I'll
tell you where the origin of this story went. He
moved to LA and then his contract with ww was

(37:42):
done and he didn't know what he was going to
do next. And this is going to really get you
ten years prior, we had lost our older brother Daniel
to a drunk driver and that was the most horrific,
horrible night of my life. And so Paul really is
my everything at this point. And we are walking out
of Mickey Works the wrestler and Paul is sobbing, and

(38:07):
I turned away and said, hey, man, are you okay?
And he said, is that what's going to happen to me?

Speaker 1 (38:12):
Mm?

Speaker 2 (38:12):
He looks, he goes, is this what I am? This
is what's going to happen to me? And Paul's maybe
early thirties at that point, and it clearly isn't. He
now runs a wrestling academy. He still wrestles a lot.
He trains a ton of wrestlers. A lot of wrestlers
you see in Love Paul trained them. He's still very
active in wrestling, and he has a career for himself.
But that that conversation, I went and I wrote a

(38:35):
story that weekend, and I said, what if you're a
hero again? What if I write a story, a love
letter to you where you get transferred to another world
that sees you as a hero. Granted it's mistaken, but
then you have to fill those shoes and it's comedic.
It's Army of dog yea. So I was gonna say, like,
I love all the comedy stuff.

Speaker 1 (38:53):
I do love this stuff again because this is like,
this is an amazing origin story of this. But you know,
just in case the listener is listening and they're like, oh,
the story, the story, the story, like this is a comedy. Okay,
it's but it's a comedy in the same but like
you you take, but they kept.

Speaker 2 (39:10):
The Three Amigos were losers. The Galaxy Quest actors were
doing conventions in like like Alan Rickman's character like he
hates it. These are bitter has been people and they
get a chance to be heroes again and they take it.
It's the same story with here the Prophecy, but once.
But it's like, what does he teach the people around

(39:31):
him who are in this downtrodden kingdom, who are divided
in infighting because this wizard's coming and destroyed everything. Does
he unite them again as a.

Speaker 1 (39:42):
Symbols you got to read the book I've written all
of here of the Prophecy, And then which is how
many issues?

Speaker 2 (39:50):
I think it's going to be six and.

Speaker 1 (39:52):
The kickstarter is for issue number one, right issue.

Speaker 2 (39:54):
Number one, okay, which, guys, you're going to get it
within the monday. This is already ordered the printing, like,
this is someth done. This is something you told me
about paying myself back. I want you to I want
you to tell the listeners to this.

Speaker 1 (40:05):
Okay. So the first issue is is it twenty two pages?
Twenty six pages? Okay? So that's already your better you're
already bed Marvel DC by six pages? And how much?
What price point can I get this issue for? Like
if I go to your kickstarter dollars five dollars everybody,
if you want so printed, like, not only are you
supporting indie comics and an awesome person like Jonathan, five

(40:28):
dollars for twenty six page? Comb of guys?

Speaker 2 (40:30):
Is the second? The second the credit cards clear. I
just want you to have the book. The second the
credit cards clear, it's getting email to you. You're getting
the PDF. The second the credit cards clear, because I
just ordered one hundred and fifty copies of the book
that are coming in next week. It's going in the mail.
I want it in your hands. I don't want.

Speaker 1 (40:48):
He doesn't want in his house anymore. He wants about
I don't want him. I don't blame him. And here's
the thing, I have too many issues a super best
friend of my closet. I don't want him anymore.

Speaker 2 (40:56):
I want it in your hands and like, and if
you order a print copy for ten bucks, Paul out
o sign it, or you can just have Paul sign it.
I know what you really want. And then we went
to Balboa Park last weekend and we shot the photo cover.
There's a if you want to buy two cover, two versions,
they're gonna be the same price, but kickstarted exclusive. It's
a photo cover of Paul with the sword kind of

(41:17):
King Conan's like a John Carter of Mars because it
is John Carter of Mars. Ish it's like Flash Gordon,
John Carter Mars. We shot this. We had them with
his shirt off in Balboa Park with a giant sword
and people were trying to like walk their dogs. That's yeah,
and so people would like come around the bushes. And
my partner in Geekscape and I and who's helped me

(41:40):
with the book, George and I were sitting there taking
photos of my brother holding a sword with his shirt off,
and people are like, what are you doing? And I
just kept telling them we're doing barbarian erotica very successful. Yeah,
that was like, we're filming barbariaan erotica. Paul's just dying aloud.
Don't understand if you get the photo cover, which I
just wanted to cool photo cover, when you get the

(42:01):
if you go to the photo cover and we hit
maybe a stretch goal. I don't know. Maybe you get
yourself a poster. You can put it in the inside
of your locker. Are burying erotic?

Speaker 1 (42:10):
I just want to I also want to say to
our listeners, Paul London smash Jonathan, where where can they
find where's the link where they can find this? We'll
have a link in the description. Actually, please make a
note the way we can write write down.

Speaker 2 (42:22):
But what's the r L hero Theprophecy dot Com hero.

Speaker 1 (42:25):
The Prophecy dot Com All right, every geek cusher lesson listeners.
You know we don't bring you comic books that aren't great.
Aren't great. I've read the issue one, Jonathan sent it
to me. It is a lot of fun. I want
all six issues of this book. Go make it happen.
You're gonna get this book very soon.

Speaker 2 (42:39):
I hope it's sixth issue. Maybe I can write in
five I had to be better.

Speaker 4 (42:42):
You know what.

Speaker 1 (42:43):
Technically, Jonathan is a legacy character to Paul on and
I'm just throwing that out there.

Speaker 2 (42:48):
I was born first.

Speaker 1 (42:49):
Oh well, then, then Paul is the legacy of John.

Speaker 2 (42:52):
I was born first.

Speaker 1 (42:54):
I thought, you know, what's funny, I'd known you for
a long time. I didn't know you were the older brother.

Speaker 3 (42:57):
John literally said that I look I don't.

Speaker 1 (43:00):
Listen to the podcast.

Speaker 2 (43:02):
I look younger, Jason, because I didn't get hit in
face with chairs, sorry, Mark that one. Because I didn't
get hit in the chair in the face with chairs
for shreaking ten years. I didn't land on concrete for
ten years. So I'm sorry. That's why, no offense.

Speaker 1 (43:21):
Paul.

Speaker 2 (43:22):
I love you, but that was a rough road. And
I'm glad you're not working for WW anymore or wrestling
at that frequency anymore. Uh. And you know what, I
don't think I look any younger than you. I love you, man.
You're a good looking dude. You've always been a good
looking dude. And that's why maybe Jason, you think that

(43:43):
ye older?

Speaker 1 (43:44):
All right, everybody, Okay, Hero of the Prophecy dot Com
When from when? When is the Kickstar launch February fourth.

Speaker 2 (43:51):
Okay, guys were a biggest.

Speaker 1 (43:52):
So at the time, when you guys are looking, when
you guys are listening to this episode, the Kickstarter is
live literally right now. So go just go right now,
right now, pause this podcast.

Speaker 3 (44:02):
Oh you can listen to podcast and donate at the same time.

Speaker 1 (44:04):
Oh you can't do that. It's very you can leave
it running and just go to your browser. It's very easy,
all right.

Speaker 2 (44:08):
And I wrote her as a script. Is a film script.

Speaker 1 (44:10):
We filmed something like you're on a script for this thing.

Speaker 2 (44:12):
Only reason I turn it into a comic with you
guys making the comics. Oh, thank you too, you too
making the comics. I'm a legacy of you. Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (44:21):
Wait, so Paul London is a legacy character Jupiter Jet.

Speaker 3 (44:24):
Oh my gosh, that's crossover.

Speaker 2 (44:26):
And now we're going to do the crossover.

Speaker 1 (44:27):
Oh my god, you can ever wait? Wait what's going
on with that?

Speaker 2 (44:32):
Wa?

Speaker 1 (44:32):
Wait, she's too young to be with Paul.

Speaker 2 (44:35):
Paul, she'd be annoying him.

Speaker 1 (44:36):
And yeah, she's like fifteen, she is seventeen, seventeen at
the end of seventeen.

Speaker 2 (44:43):
She's not gonna be with with all their sidekick buddies, Yeah, buddies.
I mean she picks him up and basically drops them
on people.

Speaker 1 (44:50):
She does have a jet back, so she could totally
take it. I'm just gonna throw that out there.

Speaker 2 (44:53):
She takes him up. It just kind of like rocks
some people.

Speaker 3 (44:56):
That's their fastball special.

Speaker 1 (44:58):
All right, So everybody out there here the Prophecy dot
Com also, we gotta we gotta come. There's one legacy thing.
There's a legacy character out there that we have not
talked about King Arthur at all. Technically, yes, a legs
character to.

Speaker 3 (45:11):
King Uther and then Mordred and Merlin.

Speaker 1 (45:14):
But there is a very big movie character that has
a legacy character that we have not even mentioned, James Bond,
and we're gonna talk about him, right Ethan Hawk.

Speaker 2 (45:26):
Hawk.

Speaker 3 (45:27):
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Maya Hawk.

Speaker 1 (45:29):
Okay, let's father of the north Man, Ethan Hawk Legacy. Anyways,
we're gonna talk about this major movie character after these messages.
But we gotta go these messages first. GHL, we're back
talking about legacy characters who should wear the mask. We have,
you know, a bunch of whole but there's a bunch
of movie characters here that we can talk about, but

(45:49):
we're getting towards the end the episode. I mean, obviously,
you know, raise a legacy character to Luke Skywalker with
the Jedi. You know, we also have to mention. I
want to give a nice shout out to Uh. There's
really cool legacy character in one of my favorite movies,
The Mask of Zoro. Alejandro Marierta is the legacy character
of Don Dia Diego de la Vega, who is the
classic original Zoro King. Arthur of course is one. You know,

(46:11):
you have John Blake and the Dark Knight Rises, whose
technically did Grayson. But there is a big character actually
spoiled it before the break.

Speaker 3 (46:18):
I'm sorry.

Speaker 4 (46:18):
I thought I was doing a bit Wesley Crusher James
Bond and you if you.

Speaker 2 (46:24):
Hear folks, it's Alaly going to turn into James Bond
with Jason. He loves it.

Speaker 1 (46:29):
Oh yeah, there is a There is a first print
copy that actually gives me about the Man with the
Golden Gun literally sitting right behind you, Jonathan, right over
on that show.

Speaker 2 (46:36):
Look, because I'm as much of a feminist as your wife.

Speaker 3 (46:39):
The single most expensive book I've ever appreciate.

Speaker 1 (46:41):
You can you can be a feminist and still support
James Bond.

Speaker 2 (46:44):
James thrown out there. Well, maybe it's the Connery that
I have an issue. I have an issue with Connery
as well, gentlemen who doesn't have.

Speaker 3 (46:55):
Anything almost scanned up.

Speaker 1 (46:56):
But we need to talk about James Bond here because
he's an interesting because he's not a traditional legacy character.
But with each new actor there's a new tone, there's
a new era specific personality, almost with the idea that
each new James Bond is a legacy character. Yeah, yeah, Like,

(47:16):
so I want to ask about this, like James Bond
is the legacy character that is the same character but
a new interpretation every.

Speaker 2 (47:25):
Time, supporting cast.

Speaker 1 (47:27):
Yeah, and and you know, yeah, he's supporting casts. But
he so he's the legacy character that doesn't change characters. Yeah,
why does he sort of like, let's talk about this, like,
do you okay, first, do you think this is bunk?
Do you like James Bond not a legacy character at all?
But each new James Bond actor is technically, by strictest definition,
a new mass.

Speaker 4 (47:45):
I think I think the question you need to be
asking is like, he's not in the strictest sense, he
is in the in the in the In the microcosm,
he's not unless you ascribe to the idea that it
is a mantle, that is a code name that's passed down. Yeah,
which is the question is like do you or do
you not ascribe to that? In the macrocosmic view, he

(48:07):
is because he's a fictional character, and every time he
iterates it's it's completely in aw universe. It's just like,
technically there's eighty five different Peter Parker iterations because there's
been so many different you know. It's like the way
that every time a new creat team was onto a
comic book, it's it's a soft reboo, whether or not
it has rebirth, crisis, cataclysm, whatever stamped across the trade dress.

Speaker 2 (48:29):
And the Dane Craig run was so aware that they
tried to cast Conrie in that one role with the
long rife. Yeah, and they tried to get Conrie. He's like, nah,
I ain't doing that. But also they introduced another double
seven when.

Speaker 1 (48:42):
Hitting Daniel craigs last movie.

Speaker 2 (48:43):
Yeah, Craig's last movie, and I kind of want to
see that Double seven. No offense to Bond fans, but
double O seven is the mantle, and I want to
see a continuation of that character, and then I want
to see how mad people on Facebook get about it.

Speaker 1 (48:57):
I would love to see her continue as a double
or get a spin off movie of her. I would
love it. I think Rat super cool.

Speaker 2 (49:03):
And these are the things that in comics are possible. Like,
maybe you're not going to be able to convince Sony
stockholders or Studio stockholders to go behind go with that,
but as a giant far skate fan who only got
four seasons in a movie, seeing Rock and me old
Mannon do a fifth season with Boom Comics was awesome
as a far skate fan and stuff like that, I'd

(49:26):
love to see those continuations. I know, Star Trek's done
it a lot. We're getting that stuff with.

Speaker 1 (49:30):
Well, that's another one. Almost every new Captain could be
considered a legacy character to captains got seventeen spocks at
this point, and you also specifically think about like yeah, yeah, yes,
and also the thing that.

Speaker 4 (49:44):
Technically three because two actors played him, because if you
count the original pilot. Yeah, but you also considered things
like actively drunk for half the episode. But you also
have to consider but you also, I'm just gonna do
saying this that.

Speaker 3 (49:55):
Actually there's four because of the movie, I can.

Speaker 1 (50:01):
Mute every single one. I do you there are multiple enterprises.
The enterprise itself is a ship is a because because
the Cards enterprise is the enterprise D what's Rachel Garrett
the Enterprise C Yeah, and then in Startup Percards season
three we got the Enterprise g on.

Speaker 2 (50:18):
So yeah, guys listening and girls listening. The second death
Star over the Moon of Endor, that's a legacy death Star.

Speaker 1 (50:26):
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2 (50:26):
Yeah, the Superstar Destoryer is a legacy I was like,
how many other.

Speaker 3 (50:31):
Death Stars have there been since?

Speaker 4 (50:32):
Then?

Speaker 2 (50:33):
The Superstar de story that went into the Legacy Star
so awesome watching that as a kid.

Speaker 1 (50:39):
So I want to before we get to the final ask,
I have to do a little bit of self promotion
here because there is another legacy character out there that
many people don't consider to be a legacy character, and
that is doctor John Watson. That's true, who is technically
a legacy character to Sherlock Holmes, especially if you watch
Watson on CBS Sundays, on CBS After Track or on
Paramount Plus. Because this is the whole shows about doctor
John Watson picking up the legac of Sherlock Holmes and

(51:01):
being a detective on his own while he serves solves
medical mysteries.

Speaker 2 (51:05):
The main mystery what happened to Sherlock Holme or do
we know?

Speaker 1 (51:08):
No, you'll know that. In the pilot this is the
show is actually a lot about how John is like,
how do I put my life together now that I
and I'm on my own, now that I don't have
my best friend and he and the show is a
lot about him being like, well, I'm a doctor. I'm
just going to go back to being a doctor. But
the physician Hill thyself exactly. But because he's so much
in the world of Detective E stuff, the Detective E

(51:28):
mystery sort of follow him.

Speaker 2 (51:30):
We love a good distraction with our superheroes where it's
like I really should be a lawyer, but I want
to be a blind vigilant.

Speaker 4 (51:36):
Yeah, that's that's very much Watson want to be the
as Jason describes them, the manbow of the marpl University.

Speaker 1 (51:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there's a lot of moments where
Watson is very There are a lot of characters in
Watson CBS is Watson where they're very much like, hey,
you know, we got patience, and he's like, but I
got a mystery.

Speaker 2 (51:53):
It's like me playing Zelda.

Speaker 3 (51:55):
I think I think people.

Speaker 4 (51:57):
Will also be pleasantly surprised to find other Homesian legacy characters.

Speaker 1 (52:03):
Spring throughout this. There's a lot. Yeah, so I wanted
to throw out that legacy. And then I also had
King Arthur on the list. Yeah, King Arthur is very
much a legacy character, and who the man who will
be King or who?

Speaker 4 (52:12):
I was a bit taken by your initial definition in
the intro where you were sort of talking about legacy
characters because we we we the conceit of this episode was,
of course like masks, superheroes, comic books, and the way
you threw it out there, my brain is like, oh,
I would have never considered King Arthur a legacy character, and.

Speaker 2 (52:29):
Then consider the King James Bible a bunch of well,
but my.

Speaker 4 (52:34):
Brain immediately went like, from my purely fictional no offense
meant standpoint, Jesus is a legacy like Moses, yeah, and
like Shiva and like all the gods got and like
like aries and like my brain was spiraling and I
was like, how do how do I bring this idea up?

(52:55):
Just as a storytelling thought.

Speaker 1 (52:57):
It never stops, It never stops.

Speaker 2 (52:59):
Everything is We're still trying to understand the fire in
the sky has involved parasites on a molten rock flight
through vacuum. We're still trying listeners, We're trying to figure
this out.

Speaker 1 (53:11):
So I want to end up here with the Final Ask,
a new segment that we have on this podcast. Now
that by the way, we're still looking for a sound effect.
Gie he show us at a gmail dot com. Please
anybody that is a good sound engineer make us a
sound effect for the Final Ask. We've joked that it
could be with the final countdown, but we don't want to.
We don't want to anchor the copyright gods. So the question,
we're all creators here, and I want to ask that

(53:32):
we have a lot of times when we get legacy characters,
like we talked about a little bit of Sam Wilson,
I brought up Ray and Star Wars all these other characters,
there's a lot of backlash. So I want to ask
you what is some of the biggest challenges creator's face
when trying to create a brand new legacy character. And

(53:54):
in that question, I would love you to answer, what
do you think makes a great legacy character or a
bad legacy character. H Jonathan, would you do you mind?
Or actually let's go for you, we'll finish. I guess Ashley,
what what would you say as a creator yourself in
an answer to that question.

Speaker 4 (54:08):
It's it's sort of the same debate that you have
whenever you're talking about creating a new series in a franchise,
because you have to fit a very specific ven diagram.
When you're creating a legacy character or developing a legacy character,
you have to appease the elder gods who are your
hardcore audience, the people who have shaped and influenced the

(54:32):
tone and the mantle as it has become. But you
also have to do something new, Like if we just
had Bruce Wayne, Like to me, this is what's not
interesting about Damien is like, he's just.

Speaker 2 (54:46):
Bruce Wayne.

Speaker 4 (54:47):
Yeah, yeah, so I get it. I'm wrong because that
character has persisted.

Speaker 1 (54:52):
But whereas like Terry McGinnis is like Peter Parker basically
being Spider.

Speaker 4 (54:56):
Man yea, or basically or Dick Grayson is like the
hopeful well the same tragedy through a lens of hope.
So the challenge is to do the same but different.
And I think where characters succeed is where they can
do the same but different.

Speaker 3 (55:09):
And I think where they fail, and.

Speaker 4 (55:12):
I would argue that Ray fails is where they're just
the same, but you've dressed them up in a female
body or a gay body or a different rate. Like
you're just you're changing the dressing, but substantively they're just
copy paste.

Speaker 1 (55:27):
You're going to get so many emails in favor of
what you said, in so many emails against you from
guys and pickups.

Speaker 3 (55:32):
That's right. Look, you can email me and say whatever
you want. You can say whatever you wants to me
on social media. My only rule is you have to
follow me.

Speaker 1 (55:39):
Okay, cool, see whatevery one.

Speaker 3 (55:41):
As long as you follow me, what would you say?

Speaker 2 (55:44):
Like most times when I guess on this podcast, I'm
going to agree with Ashley one hundred percent. And that's
the tricky dance I talked about at the beginning of
the episode. And the problem was never Ray. The problem
was that we didn't see the things that made Ray ray,
and they didn't deviate too much enough from the New Hope.
So I think if you're a creator out there and

(56:06):
you're contemplating a story, and you did this. You did
a variation of Superman Jason in his relationship with Jimmy Olsen,
and the idea was you actually threw them a situation
that was so difficult for their friendship and for them
as a secret identity character. I think violently breaking a
lot of it is almost necessary. And that's the one thing.

(56:28):
I'm not a fan of the sequel trilogy. I'm a
fan of the swings, and I love it when creators swing,
and right now, I was skeptical of the Absolute DC stuff,
but I love the Batman book. I love Diana being
raised in Hell with the Absolute Wonder Woman book. And
those are massive deviations from those characters.

Speaker 3 (56:48):
And to what people like about red Son.

Speaker 2 (56:51):
And that's what people love about Red Sun. They love
about these things, and I think you've got to do
that stuff, and guys, we need to do that, keep
it just fresh. We all exist in a multiverse, you know,
the we all got mad about the Clone saga in
the nineties, but that was a big swing.

Speaker 3 (57:08):
And here's a multiverse for Jonathan's the younger brother.

Speaker 2 (57:10):
There's a there's multiverse. There's multiverses for everything.

Speaker 1 (57:16):
But but the truth is, if you if you're not
going bold, what's the point, what's the point?

Speaker 2 (57:21):
Why did you make this? And I remember just sadly
watching that first sequel movie and just thinking like, Okay, well,
this is a desert planet. It's looking a little too familiar,
and we have a a character that's orphaned. I would
have liked to see a little bit more time with
her experimenting with the force, not knowing what she's doing necessarily,

(57:44):
but maybe in like a princess mononocha, not a princess monarch,
but nowsica value of the wind style.

Speaker 1 (57:48):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (57:49):
There were cool visual influences from uh Miyazaki in those movies,
and especially because you know that first one, and I'd
been like, cool, she's gonna just she's exploring the giant
dead Start destroyer. If she drops from a rope, I'd
like to see her use a little bit of force
to land, you know, and like stuff like this where
she it's inherent, she's learning it, but she doesn't have

(58:12):
a form to the function yet, and then then when
she starts getting to this adventure. I'd like to have
not seen any of the legacy Star Wars characters until
the second film, you know, I would like to see
something fresh. And I gotta tell you, I'm enjoying. I
enjoy stuff like Skeleton Crew where we're not getting any
legacy characters. I enjoy the Star Wars stuff where don't
get legacy characters because it comes with incredible expectations and

(58:32):
you're not going to meet them. You know. If we
fall in love with these characters first, and then you
start bringing in some of the legacy hint characters and
they're like, okay, cool. Now we bring in the Han
and we bring in Leah and Luke and we feel it.
But they're not the stars. They're not the stars of this.
If you put them in the first movie, they're going
to take over immediately. We love them. We couldn't wait
to see them again. They're our old friends. There are

(58:54):
warm blankets. That's so dangerous. I'm excited to see Sam
Wilson as Captain America.

Speaker 1 (59:00):
Me excited.

Speaker 2 (59:00):
And we have uh, you know, Steve Rodgers in this movie.

Speaker 1 (59:05):
Same.

Speaker 2 (59:06):
I am excited to see Bucky on a team dysfunctional team.
I'm excited to see them for the characters they are.
And so you just have to concentrate on that stuff.
And I think the success of this the Snyder Batman
right now is you have an Alfred who is, like,
you know, trying to figure out this new Gotham city

(59:27):
and who the bad is and his mission is to
infiltrate it. You've got a Thomas Wayne death that created
a dynamic with Bruce and I think he just changed
enough of it to be super cool and I'm into it.
Diana being raised in hell in the Absolute Wonderman book
is like awesome and she's like pulling out demons and stuff.
I think it's great. You can't give us the same stuff.

Speaker 3 (59:49):
Guys, Jason, you've really driven this episode.

Speaker 4 (59:52):
So is there anything that you want to add as
we're wrapping up about what's necessity?

Speaker 3 (59:56):
Necessity? What's necessary?

Speaker 1 (59:58):
The a legacy character's best when you're trying to make
an old character relevant.

Speaker 3 (01:00:04):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (01:00:05):
So how do you make Chances Bond relevant?

Speaker 1 (01:00:07):
I mean, well, here, here it is, and they they
backed away from it right in the script, in the
original script of Casino Rale that you can find online,
when there's a scene the first scene that you see
Daniel Craig is James Bond with a lady. Oh yeah,
in the screen he is performing. I'll just say sexual

(01:00:27):
pleasure on her and her alone, and that is in
the script.

Speaker 3 (01:00:32):
And then they changed it in the edit, and they.

Speaker 1 (01:00:34):
Changed it in the edit and and that is not
what it is. But they intentionally did that to be
like your daddy Bond. Yeah, yeah, and then they took
it out. There was also Harley Quinn did the same thing.
Harley Quinn series had a scene where Batman was giving
sexual pleasure only to Catwoman.

Speaker 2 (01:00:50):
And I get where those giant corporations are coming with
that stuff. But if you're an indie creator and you
do not have a bunch of stockholders asking for that
breathing down your necks, you gotta go for it or
you're not gonna find your lane.

Speaker 1 (01:01:07):
Yeah, because again, I know it's funny like this, The
same thing, like the thing I will say about James
Bond is the same thing about is what everybody thinks
about Captain Kirk. Everybody thinks that's fantastic for well, no, no, no,
everybody thinks that Captain Kirk is just an ultimate womanizer. Sure,
and when you actually watch the original series, that's not
who he is. And James Bond, yes, the womanizing is

(01:01:30):
a big part of his character. The actual thing to me,
that is very appealing about James Bond is that if
you read the books of James Bond and you watch
those movies, James Bond is not a smart guy, and
he's not smart.

Speaker 3 (01:01:44):
And the womanizing is a tool in his belt. It's
not the he is, just the films have made it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:49):
He is a really good people reader.

Speaker 2 (01:01:52):
He and he's a good Jack Reacher is what Jack
Reacher well, like you know, Jack Reacher is kind of
like he's solving crimes, but he's a blunt for soul.

Speaker 1 (01:02:00):
Yes, yeah, James Bond is just like he never gives
up and he's really he's a good pogirl.

Speaker 3 (01:02:04):
He knows exactly what tells me.

Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
He knows how to read people. So that's why he's
a womanizer, because he's like, hmm, if I sleep with
this lady, she'll probably give me all the Russian secrets.

Speaker 2 (01:02:12):
We need to have it at one where he's like,
if I sleep with this dude.

Speaker 1 (01:02:15):
Yes, yes, yes, And that that is exactly how I
would make James Bond relevant. Because spies of the twentieth
century they sleep with people left right in the center. Yes, yeah,
So that's how I make James Bond relevant, and they
got close to that in Skyfall. There's a line in
Skyfall where he says, what makes you think this is
my first time with a guy woo? And that's as
close as they've gotten to. So that's how I'd make
But so so to me, it's like it's all about

(01:02:36):
keeping characters relevant because otherwise it's without a big push,
like what you said, it's just pure nostalgia and it's
boring and we and.

Speaker 3 (01:02:44):
We've unfortunately seen that yeah a lot recently.

Speaker 1 (01:02:47):
So there we go. That's the final ask everybody. Jonathan,
thank you so much for joining us on this episode
of Gee Kischer Lesson Real Quick, Hero of the Prophecy
dot com. The Kickstarter is live right now. Go get
Jonathan's comment, but I am fully giving it the geek
history Lesson endorsement here real quick.

Speaker 2 (01:03:03):
Final thing you calling me and telling me you enjoyed
the book. Maybe my day, dude, because honestly.

Speaker 1 (01:03:08):
I did enjoy the book.

Speaker 2 (01:03:08):
That's a lot I do not even try without you
guys paving the way for me and like telling me
I can do this and showing me that I could
do this with the success of your books, like that
was so big for me.

Speaker 1 (01:03:19):
Well, hopefully by the time listeners you hear this and
you go check out the Kickstarter, it's already fully funded
and you're on the like fourth or fifth stretch.

Speaker 3 (01:03:26):
F definitely fully funded, but I'm hoping that it's steam
rolls our highest numbers.

Speaker 1 (01:03:30):
I'm going to get the photo cover for That's what
I'm getting for. Yes, that's what I'm going to getting
that photo cover. Guys, I just want you're gonna have
it as a big poster? Can I have it as can?
I put it over my freezer where the secret rogers.

Speaker 2 (01:03:41):
I will send you the Barbarian Erotica package believe you know.

Speaker 1 (01:03:47):
Stretch. By the way, By the way, you need to
have that as a tier. That needs to be the
title of one of your tiers needs to be the
Barbarian Erotica. BA want you to be.

Speaker 2 (01:03:57):
More Kickstarter than having erotica.

Speaker 1 (01:04:00):
Yes, Jonathan, where else can they hero the Prophecy dot com?
Please go check out the book. We got a link
in the description. Everybody where else can they find you online? Jonathan?

Speaker 2 (01:04:08):
I like to talk on the Geekscape podcast. I've been
doing that since two thousand and six. And here's the thing,
Like now, it's a network. We have forty plush shows.
But I don't know. I like talking everywhere. I was
thinking about starting a sub stack. Maybe it started by
the time you guys talk.

Speaker 1 (01:04:25):
Now, I was thinking about starting subsects.

Speaker 2 (01:04:26):
I like going in there and like subscribing to my
friends seeing what they're sharing. I like the community aspect
of it, and I love reading a lot of diverse
journalists from really cool places talking about informed things and man,
it's a fun place. And I don't know a blue
sky and all that stuff. Not not really. I think
I diacted it in my ex many times ago. So

(01:04:50):
I don't know. Guys, you don't need to follow me,
Just find me.

Speaker 1 (01:04:54):
Support us. Come, we're saying, just find it in Los Angeles.

Speaker 2 (01:04:57):
I love following around.

Speaker 1 (01:04:59):
You don't have to follow it to say, Hi, Ashley,
where can they find the podcast out on the various
social media.

Speaker 4 (01:05:03):
You can find it everywhere at geek history, lesson and Ashley,
you are Ashley B.

Speaker 1 (01:05:09):
Robinson on threads, in Blue Sky everywhere.

Speaker 3 (01:05:11):
Don't give Jonathan your followers give.

Speaker 1 (01:05:12):
As that's right. I'm jaw On j w i n
on Instagram and threads, and I'm Jason Inman for the
first time ever.

Speaker 2 (01:05:20):
Come, that's the first time you've gotten there.

Speaker 1 (01:05:22):
The whole reason jahwan exists.

Speaker 3 (01:05:23):
Oh that's not true. Oh you're Jason author on TikTok.

Speaker 1 (01:05:27):
I'm Jason Author. So the the whole reason why jaw
one existed is because all the social media platforms I
could not get Jason Imman. Blue Sky is the very
first time I got. I got there early enough because
a couple of years ago, when Blue Sky first existed,
I was like, I'm gonna go up there and snatch
Jason m and I got it.

Speaker 3 (01:05:42):
Yeah, because you had to get when you had to
have the blue Sky referral links.

Speaker 2 (01:05:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05:46):
Yeah. So like that's why I'm saying come over to
Blue Sky, because it's the first time that I'm actually
meverely disappointed. It's probably it's probably.

Speaker 3 (01:05:56):
There is there is someone that has its, not you.

Speaker 2 (01:05:59):
Yeah, yeah, beaver Fur.

Speaker 1 (01:06:01):
It's probably the reason. Like it's for the reason why
I have barely any followers over there, because I'm just like, look,
I don't care, I'm moving on. It's I'm Jason him
and I want to be me. So everybody, Okay, well everybody,
what have we learned today? Well, we've learned that the
mask is only as good as the person wearing it,
whether it's Captain America shield or Zorro's mask. For unless
you're James Bond, then just wear a tucks. And we

(01:06:23):
also love the fans love legacy character unless they realize
it's not their hero or they drive a pickup truck
que the Twitter outrage and Legacy characters are like group projects.
If it works, everybody's happy, and if it doesn't, you'll
never hear the end of it unless you have Steve
Rogers in your freezer. Smash smash, definitely smash. All right, everybody,
this has been geeksher lesson. I'm Jason in mister.

Speaker 3 (01:06:44):
Victory Robinson and Professor Jason. Would you please disist?

Speaker 1 (01:06:47):
Well, I wanted to think our guests one last time.
I just think I don't care. I'm gonna think. I'm
gonna thank him. You don't.

Speaker 2 (01:06:53):
I'm good.

Speaker 1 (01:06:56):
There you go. That's all you need to say.

Speaker 3 (01:06:58):
Okay, now will you dismiss the clubs?

Speaker 2 (01:06:59):
No E in the

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