Kenneth Branagh's Frankenstein (1994)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
With the success of Bram Stoker's Dracula in nineteen ninety
two was nineteen ninety four's Mary Shelley's frankensteign an inevitability.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
Patrick thoughts, Oh, a thousand percent. I don't think you can.
I mean, at this point you can't have like one
without the other.

Speaker 1 (00:29):
You can't have a sequel without a sequel without a REBASI.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
Yeah, it's like it's like whenever you're tying in the
universal monsters, they're always trying to pitch all of them together.
Like so you've got your wolf Man, Invisible Man, Frankenstein, Dracula,
like those classic Standler creature of the Black Lagoon. But
it's like, I mean, if if we're going for like
the Big Three, so it's like you have your Dracula,

(00:52):
we have Francis for Coppolo's Dracula, and then I would say,
obviously the next step or the follow up to that
would have been this version of like Mary Shelley's Frankenstein.

Speaker 1 (01:02):
So you're saying, this is the Dark Universe before it, Yeah,
exactly before a universal pitch to the Dark Universe start
with Tom Cruise.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
Yeah, my god, Tom Cruise.

Speaker 1 (01:14):
Depp, Oh boy, what a What a time to be alive. Yeah, well, Patrick,
your answer has induced no injected so much electricity into
this podcast. It's finally alive and it is time to
say hello and welcome to Geek History Lesson. I am
Ashley Victoria Robinson. Welcome to your mind University because you
have stumbled onto the podcast where we take one character

(01:36):
construct or creature from pop culture and teach you everything
you need to know about them in about an hour.
I know, I know, friends, you are used to also
hearing Jason Inman on this podcast. I'm also very sad
he's not here. He's my favorite person in the whole world.
But he has to go and consult with Watson, who
is consulting with Sherlock. So we give over his time

(01:57):
and instead we invite my beautiful sexy friend, writer, podcaster,
movie a ficionado, Patrick McMillan, Sorry about that, to return
to Geek History Listen. I love you so much. I
couldn't say your name.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
Brother. Wow, It's okay. I love you so much. I
also love Jason so much. It's like such big shoes
to fill, so I'm hoping that I can be up
to the task.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
Truly, truly, horrifying to do this alone.

Speaker 2 (02:22):
With all I can only imagine this.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
Is only our second time doing.

Speaker 2 (02:26):
This, So we'll Frankenstein this episode together.

Speaker 1 (02:30):
Ooh, what a good segue. It's almost like you know
what you're doing. I would love to roll into our
meat cute, which we've eliminated a little bit, but we
have not had you on to talk about Frankenstein in
any capacity. So I would love to ask you what
is your relationship with this franchise?

Speaker 2 (02:49):
Like sure, I mean just with the familiarity as a whole.
I mean, I mean we've talked about this endlessly. Yeah,
if you ask my mom, my mom would always tell
you from day one that my favorite holiday was Halloween.
And so it's like classic costumes, like kids want to
be like Power Rangers or Ghostbusters or some kind of

(03:12):
traditional like kid friendly costume.

Speaker 1 (03:16):
Knowing you that is absolutely absolutely not no.

Speaker 2 (03:18):
I literally, I like almost went through like the entire
backlog of like Universal Monsters. I was like Dracula one year.
I was obsessed, obsessed with it, and I remember watching
like the classic like black and white universal movies like Frankenstein, Brider, Frankenstein, Dracula,
The Mummy, so on and so forth like this is

(03:40):
like going into like merchandising, like very like consumer content.
But no, I've always been I think obsessed something about
like this property I think in and of itself, especially
the Frankenstein mythos or like the storytelling was always like
very attracted to me. I think it was you know,
like the the clinging for or like the constant chase

(04:06):
for life or like finding something beyond yourself. But then
also it's like the as I like actually researched the
novel and everything, like when I had to read it
for school or something, and I found out, Oh, it's
actually not about the creature so much, is it. Or
it's like the creature is so much more nuanced than
how you'd been portrayed on film up until that point.

Speaker 1 (04:27):
You can read in fact.

Speaker 2 (04:28):
Yeah, it's like for me incredibly not only physically but
emotionally intelligent, and I was just very much drawn to that.
I remember I had a lively debate in my a
college seminar class where people we watched like I think
the nineteen thirty one original Universal film. Yeah, and then

(04:50):
we had just finished reading the novel in the class
or like exploring it, and I like got on my soapbox,
and I was like, this is such horseh. I was like,
it's like Frankenstein isn't even about like the creature, Like
the creature isn't Frankenstein, which in massive popular media people
only identified it as not Frankenstein's Monster, but like they

(05:13):
associated that name with the creature.

Speaker 1 (05:17):
I am that jerk who's like he's called the creature. Yes,
he's frank Stein's Franks He's not a Boster. He's a writer.

Speaker 2 (05:24):
And I remember my uh my, my professor at the time,
just being like I love like writing on my essays,
just like love the passion. Yeah, maybe like an overuse
of courage when discussing with your classmates.

Speaker 1 (05:40):
Were you one of those kids growing up where you
were told that you were smart?

Speaker 2 (05:43):
Yes, of course.

Speaker 1 (05:44):
I feel like if you were one of those people
who was told you were smart, you're Frankenstein girly.

Speaker 2 (05:49):
A joy to haven't classed, yes, but talks too much.

Speaker 1 (05:52):
But if you were pretty, you're more of a Dracula girly.
Not that I don't enjoy lots of Dracula. I'm actually
reading Dracula right now for the first time. She's a
dry she's dry, really Frankenstein is much more read. It's
very modern.

Speaker 2 (06:06):
Maybe because it was written by a woman.

Speaker 1 (06:08):
Who invented the genre.

Speaker 2 (06:09):
Who would have thought yes and eighteen.

Speaker 1 (06:11):
Look when I when I learned that Mary Shelley was
fully eighteen years old. When I was seventeen and read
frankas I for the first time, I was like, well,
I'll never accomplish it.

Speaker 2 (06:18):
My life is let's pack it up now.

Speaker 1 (06:20):
It's like, did you lose your virginity and a graveyard
to a Gothic poet? No, you'll never be a school with.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
What did I call it?

Speaker 1 (06:29):
What is your favorite of the universal monster movies? It doesn't.
Mine is definitely not Friends minus Creature from the Black.

Speaker 2 (06:35):
Yeah. I would say it's a toss up between wolf
Man and Creature of the Black.

Speaker 1 (06:39):
Yeah. For anybody who doesn't know you, uh, you and I.
One of the first things we bonded over besides Captain
America was teen Wolf. So hearing that it's a wolf Man, yeah,
big were wolf Boy.

Speaker 2 (06:50):
Big uh yeah, Harry wolf Creatures.

Speaker 1 (06:53):
Yeah, tailing on yourself right now. And for Mary Shelley's
frank and sign, which is what this movie's called, but
I always referred to as Kenneth bronas Frank. And before
we get into the movie itself, how did that first
come into your life?

Speaker 2 (07:08):
I think it's like I would have I vividly, like
and viscerally remember seeing this VHS tape as a.

Speaker 1 (07:15):
Kid, really like in a blockbuster.

Speaker 2 (07:17):
In your No, it was in like a family friend
of ours home who we would visit for like holidays.

Speaker 1 (07:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:24):
Yeah, and me being bored and not interested in like
an amurgeon and talking to the adults. I would just
go plant myself in front of the TV. But I
would like be digging through VHS tapes that were in
the closet or accessible to me, and I because I'm
if I can remember correctly and without looking it up,
it's like, uh, when he's in bed or he's and

(07:47):
he's covering the mouth of like the woman on the cover,
and I just remember like seeing that and just like
being very visibly drawn to that. And so I was like, oh,
this this looks like something like it looks like spooky,
like spooky scary. Like my first like things with Dracula
was like seeing Dracula dead and loving it.

Speaker 1 (08:06):
Leslie Nilson, Okay, good, I was I was going to
be horrified. If it was Bram Stoker's Specula, then I
say it to a film because well, it's a great movie.
It's very sexually charged for a young brain. Like that's
Jason's origin story where he was like really loved that
scene where the bride comes out from between you on Retz's.

Speaker 2 (08:22):
Sleg Yeah, I know, a softer intro, but then like
send me farther down a rabbit hole. So the same
thing with this film as well.

Speaker 1 (08:31):
That's interesting. I feel like dead and loving it is
sort of a piece with Bubba Ho Tep where they
are very silly is probably too soft a description, but
they are a gateway drug for a lot of people
to like get deeper into.

Speaker 2 (08:45):
The Yeah, one hundred percent interesting.

Speaker 1 (08:47):
Okay, So for anybody listening, if you want an overview
on Frankenstein, either in pop culture or in DC comics,
we do have two episodes from twenty twenty four covering those.
So this episode is going to be a discussion specifically
about the nineteen ninety four movie Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, and
so if you want to learn more about the overviews,
go check that out or check out our Franke stegin

(09:08):
Mega episode which preceded this that whacks both of them together.
So we're doing all the hard work for you over
here on GHL. So Patrick, quick overview before we get
into the details. What are your basic thoughts reactions to
Kenneth Browno's Frankenstein.

Speaker 2 (09:25):
I think looking at this film recently, like from a
twenty twenty five lens, because I honestly had not probably
seen this film in maybe over a decade, oh for sure,
saying like since maybe like a preteen, like teenage years, like,
because this was I mean, this was something that I
watched pretty frequently. It's like I would like cycle through

(09:46):
these movies pretty often, and I just remember always enjoying
this film. And I think it was because I mean
it is I don't want to say like for the
most part, like decently accurate too.

Speaker 1 (09:58):
It's yes, it's broadly close broad strokes.

Speaker 2 (10:02):
Yeah, and I.

Speaker 1 (10:03):
Do understand where they expanded, even if I don't always.

Speaker 2 (10:05):
Love the expansions.

Speaker 1 (10:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
I think some of my biggest takeaways, especially after this viewing,
is like amazing set pieces. I mean, with Kenneth Brandna,
you're going to get anything that's like super theatrical.

Speaker 1 (10:20):
He's like this is him like at the height of Us,
he's just done much ado about nothing. He is an
American superstar quantity. He's never looked more like Prince Adam
from Beauty and.

Speaker 2 (10:29):
The Piece literally like long luscious everybody's got long luscious hair,
everybody's everybody's wigs are wagging. No, but it's like incredible
set pieces, either from the laboratory or even just like
the Frankenstein House in Geneva.

Speaker 1 (10:46):
It's like the way the staircare case. I would love
to die falling off of that staircase.

Speaker 2 (10:53):
And it's honestly like and especially because it's like such
a large room that the staircase is obviously like so imposed,
it's got to be.

Speaker 1 (11:01):
Most of whatever airplane hangar, yeah, turned into.

Speaker 2 (11:04):
Like it honestly kind of like felt almost like going
back to like No Speratu, like that early kind of
like horror film. So it's like you're building these landscapes
and even though this is especially in this environment a
some of the only like positive reinforcement or moments that
until like we get into certain segments of film, but

(11:26):
it's like beautiful landscapes.

Speaker 1 (11:30):
There's the sequence where they're going they're running in the
in the Alps, and I swear it's the same Alps
from the sound of music, but it might not. I
didn't check. No, like I to go to go and
harness lightning for the first time, and like it's beautiful
and the music is like bright, and it's kind of
this like lighthearted moment. They're in the daytime and you're like,
this is a monster, and then it so quickly becomes.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yeah, it's like so many things. There are so many
like overlaps with like other media or like things that
I like were felt to me like very very clearly
inspired like other things, like it's very clearly inspired by
like horror movies that like the seventies. I almost got
like almost like a Suspiria vibe with the house at
some point me too. And then but yeah, it's like

(12:16):
or it's like the scenery, like the scenery landscaping shots.
It's like it like felt when we're seeing Geneva. I
guess it felt very Lord of the Rings, like you
get you're getting these sweeping shots or like the sound
of music to your point. And then when we go
to like the school, like when we go when he
goes to the to the university school, medical school, something

(12:41):
and it's just like all these crazy things and then
obviously you have I was like, oh, this feels like
very kind of like Amadeus almost in certain sections. And
then and then you strolled in on screen American.

Speaker 1 (12:53):
Yeah, it was like, there there's the hardest wig in
the movie because he's got a bad hat on. I
have to yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:01):
Or like I was like the opening shot of this,
when they're in the Arctic, I was like, Okay, this
is all like pre Titanic, so it's like, oh, okay, I.

Speaker 1 (13:08):
Wait, I want to drill down to that a little
bit because I really appreciate booke nding this movie with
the captain because that is what the book does narratively.
But immediately after that, we have both a narrator and
we have a text scroll, which are two massive red
flags if this is not Lord of the Rings. And
I completely forgot because I haven't seen this since I

(13:30):
was a teacher. I own this on DVD. I loved
it so much. I'm very much a Kenneth browna girly,
and I learned I'm about to be a Kenneth Brouna
apologist for the next hour or so. But when that happened,
I was like, I don't remember this happening. I think
this is a best sign.

Speaker 2 (13:44):
Yeah. I was like, oh, this is not a good
this is not a good indication. Yeah, but no, it's
like I think it was like a very smart to
your point, like to start and then bookend with the
Arctic scenes.

Speaker 1 (13:58):
I do like the ending.

Speaker 2 (13:59):
I have to say I do too.

Speaker 1 (14:00):
He's a little less successful in the beginning because you're like, wait,
if you're like a nor me and you haven't read
the book and all, and you.

Speaker 2 (14:06):
Don't realize that it's all being told to you from
like he's a recollection from memory.

Speaker 1 (14:11):
Yeah, it's a bit. Yeah, it's a memory play. It's
like Tennessee Williams is calling, and here is your memory play.

Speaker 2 (14:16):
Yeah, here's Tennessee Williams is Kenneth Branda's version of.

Speaker 1 (14:21):
Actually uh. This film actually was sought out by Francis
Ford Coppola, obviously following the success of DRAGONA. He was like,
I'm gonna build my dark universe this. The original screenplay
was written by someone named It's it's spelled STEPH F
S T E p H. I think it's Steve Steve Lady.
I went and looked him up. He has only ever

(14:41):
written this and something called The Golden Hour, so never
never worked again. So he sold it to Copola and
was like, I have a Franken seigin screenplay here' ste
goo and Copla said, fantastic. I will be giving this
to Frank Darren Bant to rewrite. If you aren't familiar
with Frank Darren Bant, you've got a lot of homework.
But most noted, perhaps to this discussion, creator and season

(15:02):
one shirerunner of The Walking down Dead, which I haven't seen,
but I am notably told is the one of the
only good seasons of The Walking Dead, or certainly the best.

Speaker 2 (15:11):
Yeah, I would say, like definitely the front a couple
of seasons.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
And he wrote the second draft, which is more or
less what you see filmed. There are stories, apocryphal or
otherwise about Kenneth brought and making a lot of changes
on set, and I will tell you a little bit
about some of his contentious relationships with the people who
have worked on this film later. But so Steve Lady
and Frank Darren BoNT are the two credited screenwriters of this.

(15:38):
So when I saw Frank Darren BoNT, I was like, oh,
the Walking Dead guy, I had no idea, and it
kind of makes sense to be cutting his teeth on this.
Your writer, yourself screenwriter, what do you think of the script,
at least as we saw it film.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
Yeah, from what I see filmed, I mean they're definite.
I think it's heis and lows. Yeah, definitely hides and lows.
I think it's like, I think it's a lot. It's
a lot to ask for. I think, especially for like
an over two hour film. I thought period of time.

Speaker 1 (16:13):
This was a long movie. Yeah, and it is. We
also quite recently, UH watched Superman Returns and Patrick joined
us for our discussion on that, and I was like,
these two movies, I watched them the same day and
I was like, this is a good chunk of my
day and now out of the way.

Speaker 2 (16:27):
They are long, and I just like, I think that
the script definitely could have used like another pass, just
because there there are very like long scenes that I
could have done some editing or like the things that
they're picking, they're picking and choosing to change from the
original like text or like from the story narrative, whether

(16:47):
that be Frank Derebant, whether that be Kenneth Branna. It's
just interesting choices. A lot of interesting choices were made
on this film, not all of them successful, but but
I mean script wise, because it makes a lot of
sense that this was this was written and then approached to.

(17:07):
For instance, for Copolo, it is very much in line
with the nineteen ninety two Dractula film that he made,
so like very like similar like first acts and then
breaking it down like throughout the story there on. But
it's like, I'm not even necessarily interested in a lot
of the relationships that are happening on screen. So it's

(17:30):
like I would have much rather there, especially within the
Frankenstein like meet those It is because there is such
like a so many of these creatures are so driven
by a character or it's just like it just kind
of not felt performative, but a lot of the pieces
of it felt like very rushed, Like all of it's
like I understand like they're moving through large chunks of time.

Speaker 1 (17:52):
Like years and years.

Speaker 2 (17:53):
Yeah, like literally like yeah, he's a child at a
piano lesson, dancing around his house and then suddenly like
a teenager an early adult, yeah, like like eighteen like
eighteen nineteen.

Speaker 1 (18:05):
Yeah, I will say that I don't think we needed
little Boy Victor. I thought they were well shot and
they're nice in their whimsical And we spend the first
half with very much in Victor's journey, and then we
sort of pivot to the creature's journey in the back half,
which I think is more less successful. Yes, I think
Victor and this incarnation is the more interesting character, whereas

(18:27):
in the Danny Boyle theatrical adaptation with Cumberbatch and Johnny
Lee Miller, I think Victor is less interesting. In the
Creature is more the way that that sort of story
plays out.

Speaker 2 (18:39):
I think. I think with Frainsiegin and out of itself,
it's like, I think the creature is always more interesting
than the doctor.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
He should be, yeah, in my opinion.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
And it's like, I think this movie takes way too
long to actually get to like the minutia of like
him building the laboratory, like exploring for these things, getting
these ideas, teeming up with his instructor. And it's like,
because we're almost like an hour in and over.

Speaker 1 (19:05):
The birth sequence, which I think we'll talk about in
some detail, is like an hour plus an hour fifteen,
And it's like and it's lengthy.

Speaker 2 (19:14):
Especially for audiences that only can associate with Frankenstein the
creature being a green guy. Sein. This is way overbloated.

Speaker 1 (19:24):
So one of the things that's really developed in this
is Frankenstein's family, who is present in the book. We
talked about this before the pod started. His mom dies
of we think it's consumption. We didn't look it up
off screen. Yeah, his father is not a very developed character.
Elizabeth is not a very developed character. I do like

(19:44):
Ian Home as Daddy Frankens. This is two years before
he plays Bilbo, and I think you can kind of
see some shades of like I am the older statesman
to the young hero of them coming through here. I
think he does quite an admirable performance when he can't
save his wife, even though I think that whole storyline
is silly, like when he's coming down the stairs and
he's covered in blood, like, he's a joy to watch.

(20:08):
He's completely unnecessary and could be cut out of the movie,
but he's a ding dang delight.

Speaker 2 (20:12):
Yeah, that's honestly, like one of my least favorite changes
is about the movie. It's just because it's like I
understand that we need to motivate Victor to like want
to pursue this journey to want to leave his house,
create life. Yeah, so on and so forth. But I
don't necessarily think the mom needed to be the catalyst
for that.

Speaker 1 (20:33):
Well, I'm gonna drill down on Elizabeth because I think
there is some good and some bad that comes out
of that character. But it's time to take a break.
So you're alive. Now, you're gonna listen to these adverts.
You're gonna come back, and we're gonna drill down on
the only woman in the universe in this movie. GHL.

(20:53):
We are back talking Kenneth Brown as Mary Shelley's breakast
Dine and as I teased before the break, we have
to talk about the character of Elizabeth as played by
Helena Bonham Carter, very very young Helena Bond Carter. I
like Helena Bonam Carter generally.

Speaker 2 (21:09):
I mean what a face card.

Speaker 1 (21:11):
Oh, I mean unclock and look the costume. The costumes
are something, but her dresses are elite.

Speaker 2 (21:19):
Yeah, beautiful gowns. Face face card, always approving like she
is stunning to look at.

Speaker 1 (21:27):
Yeah, and she has a I love a woman with
a strong jaw who can still look incredibly feminine, like
she's very much like a Gamine type face, Like I
just want to look like her, just want to look I.

Speaker 2 (21:40):
Mean like I just I think, especially like having such
a long period of time away from this film and
then like seeing it and then like having her when
she shows up on screen, I got so excited because
I was just like, oh, like thank God, like breathing
like a fresh air light into this like literally breathing
life into this film. Because I just Elizabeth doesn't have

(22:04):
much to do.

Speaker 1 (22:06):
I mean, they really give her a lot. They merge
her storyline with the Bride of Frankensteience, which I'm gonna
say I don't hate.

Speaker 2 (22:14):
Yeah, I don't. I definitely understand the motivation behind him.

Speaker 1 (22:17):
But there are scenes where Victor goes away. I almost
said to theater school the way to medical school. Look,
I'm going to say this, I probably cried more at
your school than anyone ever cried in medical school. Goes
away to medical school. There's a plank and I think
it's Innsbrook. I will not be looking it up. Yeah.
So she comes to find him because they've been engaged.

(22:38):
She wants him to come home.

Speaker 2 (22:39):
He's not writing to her exactly.

Speaker 1 (22:41):
You know, typical man. Yeah, the little straight white man. Uh,
and and I like that she is motivated enough to
physically go to him, But once she's there, I'm like,
you're it's a bit annoying to have you around if.

Speaker 2 (22:54):
You're just like a liability at this point and.

Speaker 1 (22:55):
Again playing piano all the time. They She's part of
the Ikia storyline in my opinion as well, because she
is and this is book Cannon. She's raised as a
ward very much like like Dick Grace and to Batman
in their house they meet when they're small children, and
then they get engaged.

Speaker 2 (23:13):
Yeah, and uh, obviously it's kind of like not.

Speaker 1 (23:17):
Well they won't they And look, I get it there.
This is both of them at the height of their power.
It's a very attractive I get it, I really do.
But there's a there's a line where it's it's that
keeps getting repeated with like brother and sister, brother and sister,
how to brother and sister?

Speaker 2 (23:34):
And I'm like you you have to stop, Like we
get it enough.

Speaker 1 (23:40):
It's a very specific adult entertainment category that I am
not interested in it, and it creeps me out. So
even though I'm happy when she shows up because she's
quite good as she brings a lot to a nothing part.
Uh the storyline, it's I'm not rooting for them, and
so then ultimately when she meets her demise later in
the film, I'm not like super sad about it.

Speaker 2 (24:00):
No, I mean the thing is is like, because they
are taking such large gaps of time, there is there
is no foot for us to stand on, because it's like,
how can we root for them because we were not
seeing this relationship Foster, It's just like suddenly they were
children and now they're adults and there.

Speaker 1 (24:18):
And they've spent fun not living together. Yeah, exactly that.
Do you know who the only casting choice in this
movie is that was made by Francis Ford Coppola. He
only cast one person.

Speaker 2 (24:30):
Oh god, I mean, I'm just banging off of like
their prior relationship. I'm going to say it's Robert DeNiro.

Speaker 1 (24:36):
It is. He insisted Robert de Niro play the creature,
which is crazy. It's an unwell session. Apparently other actors
who were part of the discussion were Gerard de Padou, which, uh,
it would have been worka. I love him, he's fantastic,
and Andy Carcia. Oh okay, and I'm like, I have

(24:59):
I have so any notes. Yeah, who was like, I
need a foreign, old, older actor, and they said Robert
de Niro's Italian.

Speaker 2 (25:06):
Right, Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (25:08):
Personally, I think he is the weirdest and worst casting
choice absolutely in the He even and I cannot quite
tell you why, but he even looks out of place.
And I think it's because actors like Kenneth browna Ian Home,
Helena bott A Carter have what I like to call
period faces, yeah, where they look like they belong in
a different era, and Robert DeNiro looks like a guy

(25:30):
from Jersey.

Speaker 2 (25:30):
I mean, I definitely understand, at least conceptually, why they
made the choices that they did. Like to your point,
it is like creating this idea or this concept of
the other. Yes, it's like you have to other him
from society to.

Speaker 1 (25:44):
Like you don't think the facial prosthetics were in Oh.

Speaker 2 (25:46):
Oh no, Okay, well we'll get into that, don't worry.
I definitely have thoughts and opinions on that. But it's like, yeah,
it's like even when he shows up as a townsperson, yeah,
and he's like, oh, I'm not going to let you
give me my vaccine.

Speaker 1 (26:04):
You know, Okay, I not to get too deep into that,
because this is a nonsense podcast not able. But I
had I obviously would have never I didn't even remember
that scene exists. Yeah, I had such a visceral reaction
to that scene, and I was like, Oh, this hits
the way that I don't think anyone could have possibly.

Speaker 2 (26:21):
I was just like, oh, I did not realize that
this is going to be so timely.

Speaker 1 (26:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:27):
Yeah, yeah. And so it's like when you're seeing and
he is just so clearly not cut out to be
He's not in the same orbit of anybody else.

Speaker 1 (26:37):
No, he's a literal and I mean this derogatory, raving
lunatict yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:41):
Yeah, and not in a fun one, no. And then
for him to have to then like additionally put on
all of these prosthetics yeah, and then have to act
around the prosthetics.

Speaker 1 (26:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:53):
And it's just like it's just way too much of
an uplift for him, I think at this time and
then for this specific project, because it is he is
just like on an island of his.

Speaker 1 (27:04):
Own, and he is obviously a wonderful actor, one of
the finest actors of his generation, of all time, et cetera,
et cetera. I just I just don't think he's right
for the Maybe it's the time, and maybe it's just
who he is as an act. Of course, I don't
have a better alt pitch for you, but every time
I've probably watched this movie fifteen times, he always feels

(27:25):
strange to me. And when we pivot to his storyline
in the latter half of the movie, I'm not as
enthused to spend time like this was a I call
these phone scenes now this was a well, I'll be
scrolling and making notes. Oh yeah, during this time period
if I can. And let's talk a little bit about
Tom Holts as Victor's school friend, Henry. So I'm pretty

(27:45):
sure they named him Henry because in the nineteen thirty
one Frankensteign and in Brida Frankenstein, he is not called
doctor Victor Frankstein. He's called doctor Henry Frankenstein, which I
screamed had nauseum about and how irritated I was in that.
So I'm pretty sure that is an intentional reference. The
same way as when we see the creature sheltering with

(28:06):
the family, it's the blind old man, just like in
writer fright Seine it's the blind old man who befriends him,
so I thought that that was an uh. I finally
understood that reference. I did not understand the reference when
I was a teenager watching this for the first time.
I don't think he's living in the same movie as
everyone else. But I don't think he's bad.

Speaker 2 (28:25):
No, I don't. I don't think I don't. I genuinely
don't think he's bad, really honestly, And we talked about
this briefly. It's like literally feels like they plucked him
from Amadeus. Yeah, and then they're just like, we're gonna
put you in a different wig, and then we're gonna
put you here.

Speaker 1 (28:39):
And it is very much a brown version that is
evocative of his wig and ada.

Speaker 2 (28:44):
And then you're gonna do whatever accent you're choosing to
do because there's no consistency.

Speaker 1 (28:50):
It's it's very Yeah, sometimes it's American. Sometimes it's like
a soft RP. Sometimes it feels mid Atlantic, And I'm like,
just bro, if you can't do it, just be Kevin
Coster and Robin Hight just be American.

Speaker 2 (29:01):
But they're just like, you're not the main character, so
like you can just kind of like we just need
you to be in the background while he's like going
crazy and like react.

Speaker 1 (29:09):
Yeah. I like that he can't pass anatomy. I think
that's very funny. Yeah, Like that's a good runner that
we have throughout the movie. Okay, I think we should
talk about the birth scene It's Alive because it is lengthy.
Kenneth Brana is topless. I mean, no notes, b here's

(29:33):
the thing, body thirsty. He must have not drank water
for two whole days. Yeah, but completely unnecessarily.

Speaker 2 (29:40):
Because when he's going when like before the scene is
like starting and he's like he's like walking through the
laboratory or like the attic and he's got I.

Speaker 1 (29:47):
Do like that where he sets it up in the attic.

Speaker 2 (29:48):
He's like, this will do fine, this open robe, and
then he shirks the robe and I said, oh okay, wow.
I was like, this is definitely.

Speaker 1 (29:57):
You can see where they're lifting the sexuality Dracula the
ninety two films. However, even in the book, there is
an inherent sexuality about Dracula and about vampires. Freaks. Site
is not quite a sex seal on the same level,
and they are really pushing for it.

Speaker 2 (30:14):
It's like franking Sin is much more about like the
grotesque nature of like not only humanity, but like human nature.
And so it's like me seeing Kenneth Brenna sweaty with
like washboard.

Speaker 1 (30:28):
Apps and leather pants.

Speaker 2 (30:29):
I mean, I'm not complaining, but I was just like, oh, okay,
all right, I get I definitely understand why like this
is here. It's like getting people to like wake up
on screen and just being like, hey, pay attention to this.
But yeah, I just thought that was crazy.

Speaker 1 (30:45):
I do think it's a fun scene. It's too long,
oh it, it's like a ten minute seat. I appreciate
that he has a lot of energy. He's literally running
around the set, throwing levers, climbing on top of the
big tub.

Speaker 2 (30:58):
I just know that was chancing this.

Speaker 1 (31:01):
This had to have been a week long shoot just
this scene. As I was watching it, Jason walked in
at the part where it's everything's burst open and they're
all covered in ky jelly slipping around on the ground,
and Robert de Niro or maybe his double I'm not
quite sure, is nude clearly wearing a sock.

Speaker 2 (31:19):
Yeah, gets like hung in the was like, literally, what.

Speaker 1 (31:22):
Are you watching? And I was like, it's a freak
acide it's obviously frank Obviously I like his choice to
do because of course you do the it's alive. He
doesn't shout it, he whispers it. It's a very uh
I'm about to play Hamlet make the opposite thing. Yeah,
Like it's it's a very theater nerd thing to do.
I think the plot point that we're baking him an
amniotic fluid is disgusting on a level I don't know

(31:45):
whether to be impressed with or cringe. Egg.

Speaker 2 (31:48):
Yeah, I was like, it's not.

Speaker 1 (31:50):
A stupid choice, but it's also a choice clearly made
by a man, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (31:54):
Yeah, And then like we're seeing how like the amniotic
fluid is like is that like retrieved and access And
I'm just like, okay, cool, this is upsetting. It's a choice.

Speaker 1 (32:05):
What do you think about the choice to use electric
eels instead of the thunderstorm?

Speaker 2 (32:11):
I mean, I think I really think it's like playing
on like kind of like almost like a homo erotic
nature or like relationship between like Frankenstein and the creature.

Speaker 1 (32:25):
Definitely supposed to be.

Speaker 2 (32:26):
Yeah, yeah, sure, I mean yeah, it's like you've you're
baking him in yeah, in this little riving stay. Yeah,
and then you've got like these phallic things that are
putting life into him. So it's like I definitely was like, Okay,
that's definitely your choice.

Speaker 1 (32:43):
Yeah, strong choice, especially.

Speaker 2 (32:46):
Since we had already like played around with this concept
of electricity, and I was just like, Okay, cool, this
is how they're going to bring like the lightning bolt,
like the tower into everything. But no, it's like we're
going again the theatrical route of doing the exact opposite thing.

Speaker 1 (32:58):
Yeah. I admire that, I said, don't know if it's
the right, yeah choice. I think the sequence is cool.
I don't think it's perfect. No, if you've never seen
the movie and you're still listening to this, because I
know people do that, you can find just this scene
on YouTube and it's worth the nine and a half
minute watch because it is. It's it's wild.

Speaker 2 (33:17):
I mean, it's entertaining.

Speaker 1 (33:18):
It is a wild and crazy choice. And then after that,
I feel like the movie just disintegrates into the creature
eating garbage with his hands until he confronts Victor.

Speaker 2 (33:30):
Yeah, until he decides what he wants a girlfriend. Yeah,
until he decides Okay, actually this is going to be
a revenge plot. Yeah, I'm going to access my scorpio
nature and then I'm going to take out you and
your entire family.

Speaker 1 (33:43):
Yeah, watch me go. Yeah, tell me your thoughts on
the prosthetics.

Speaker 2 (33:46):
Oh my god. I okay. I watched this now, and
all I could see the entire time was Colin Farrell's Penguin.

Speaker 1 (33:55):
Oh, what a good call.

Speaker 2 (33:58):
It's like from the facial designs, like with discarding.

Speaker 1 (34:04):
And a little kind of hair lip thing.

Speaker 2 (34:06):
Yeah, the hair lip thing, the way that he's like
the mannerisms. I was just like, I cannot not see that.
And I was just like, obviously this like pre dates
and it's like a predecessor to that, But it's just
like there, I don't think there is a significant change
or like a significant manifestation of like of it being

(34:30):
made together by different body parts or like this that
or the other, whereas like that's not necessarily the traditional
way that we're used to seeing Frankenstein, which is not
cohesive with like the book. Yeah, but all I all
I saw was, Oh, this is Robert de Niro pitching
himself for to play oswall A couple.

Speaker 1 (34:51):
Because I like that. We did see him play The
Visit Villager earlier. Yeah, so this is clearly supposed to
be this guy died from the and we've done an
autopsy on him, or we use some medical research and
that's what we're evoking. But I do kind of like
in more modern versions where maybe he has a patch
of different colored skin or a limb that's not going

(35:12):
so I think they well, I hate the green version
and the bolts on the neck unless it's a cartoon
for children, I have absolutely no use of that for
that interpretation. All due respect to Boris car Love in
the original movies, I think it was an over correction
too far. It's trying to make something too ground where
I'm like, you're taking a little bit of dare I say,
the whimsie out of it, of making a patchwork man

(35:35):
like it's just Robert de Niro with And also not
to get too dark about it. If you're giving someone
an autopsy, even at the time, you're not giving a
big gash across their head, my goodness. Like all I
could think too was as an actor, I was like,
he cannot see properly as he's running, because he does
a lot of running through the woods, through the town
into buildings, and I was like, he's blind that.

Speaker 2 (35:56):
Man is blind running around him with the tide cut off.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
Absolutely. Do you like that he goes and basically is like,
make me a girlfriend? Or do we only like it
because we like the Bride so much and we like
the concept of the Bride?

Speaker 2 (36:13):
I think that's part of it. I mean, definitely like
the concept of like, hey, you left around and you
found out, but now you're going to do me a
solid and I will go away forever. That's obviously continuity
to the novel. Yeah, but it's just like and the.

Speaker 1 (36:29):
Novel's much more focused on he wants a relationship with
Victor correct his.

Speaker 2 (36:32):
Father, and and that's why it's like later on in
the film, it's like there's no emotional through line for anything. Yeah,
And so it's like.

Speaker 1 (36:42):
Yeah, you're calling it a revenge quest. I think it's
pretty app Yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (36:44):
Mean the back half of this film is a revenge plot.

Speaker 1 (36:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:50):
But yeah, I liked this interpretation because it's obviously pulling
in other things where they're not necessarily knowing that they're
going to be able to expand upon those things. Yeah,
but also working with expanding upon Elizabeth's character, which I
think is at least a saving Grace because otherwise than
what purposes Helen and bottom Carter have being in this movie.

Speaker 1 (37:10):
That one sex scene that went on for too long
because it wasn't a don't we call it a spicy scene?
When you close the door. Yeah, Like I've said this
on this podcast before, I don't need to watch two
actors not to have sex with each other, just you know,
make out, close the door to the mirror. I know
what's happened this is. This is one of the scenes
that goes on for a little bit. And even though
they are too beautiful people at the height of their powers.

(37:31):
Of course, I don't need to watch you with your
core is it's still on. But I do think the
moment of how the creature comes in and then ripping
her heart out is like one of the genuinely scary
moments of the movie. That's still the effects, the physical
effects are quite quite good, I think, And I don't
I don't love the way Elizabeth looks a little too scary. Yeah,

(37:54):
not that I want her to be prettier, but I
just I find her transition into a Frankensteine creature to
a little too creepy. I think it's because the back
of her head where you can see where like her
skull is on. Yeah, like through that really eekes me out.
But I love when she self immolates at the like
that is epic. It's a great fire effect. Even though

(38:15):
it's very clearly a man in address running down the hall.
I do not care. It is one of the coolest
practical dude in a fire suit scene. Yeah, I have ever.
Like it is for a characters who's kind of nothing,
it's a pretty epic ending to her.

Speaker 2 (38:28):
And then like here's the thing. It's like, if Helena
bottom cart is gonna do anything, she's gonna look great
doing it, and she's gonna play crazy. Well. Yeah, so
it's like one be a bit scary once you like
give gave her the opportunity in the back half of
the film, certainly within like the last twenty twenty five minutes, Yeah,
for her to kind of play within that realm. That's
when we're really starting to get an inkling of like
what the later half of her career would ultimately start becoming.

(38:52):
When she's like, yeah, a character actress, but it's like
she otherwise like she's just been here to be like
a pretty on a shelf and she's like, no, actually,
there's much more nuance to me and this performance. But
then also, like with Elizabeth, it's like giving the giving Elizabeth,

(39:13):
I think the uh at least the illusion of.

Speaker 1 (39:16):
Choice, the autonomy.

Speaker 2 (39:17):
Yeah, yeah, whereas like she had never had anything decided
for everything had been decided for her up into that
lively plucked from her killed parents. Yeah, in the streets,
placed with his family family, is controlling everything and.

Speaker 1 (39:34):
Engaged to her brother. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (39:36):
And then he's like, oh, I'm just going to ditch
you and only focus on my work. Like she's not
making any kind of choices. She even has that conversation
with Justine Yeah the Maid the Maid later on in
the film, in the middle of the film where she's like, look.

Speaker 1 (39:49):
Writing, that's actually a very well acted scene. It's the
only h it does not pass the Bechdel test, but
it's the only scene between two women in.

Speaker 2 (39:57):
And she's like, you get so much more. She wants
to her character because she's like, I've been writing these
letters the entire time, because she.

Speaker 1 (40:03):
Cares about the family enough to write the letter. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:06):
And then Justine's like, oh, okay, well if that was my man,
I wouldn't.

Speaker 1 (40:10):
She is right, though I would have done been there.

Speaker 2 (40:12):
I wouldn't even be here, he wouldn't be having these conversations.

Speaker 1 (40:15):
Yeah. So I my actually, my favorite scene that Elizabeth
has in the whole movie is when she's been reanimated
and she has to choose between the two of them,
and it's a nonverbal scene and it's just Helena A.
Bottom Carter reacting, which is the I mean, you know,
this is the hardest thing to do as an actor.
And then when she when she sort of makes the

(40:35):
connection and you see her and it's just with her
hands in her body like she's trying to blame, like
you did this to me. She's trying to accuse Victor,
but she can't decide, and she then she ultimately decides
that she doesn't want to live in herself. Yeah, not that,
not the Love is Blind. She's my deep teeth reference.
But I think that and it's maybe I don't know,
the whole thing is maybe three minutes long. Yeah, but

(40:58):
I think it's some of her I think it's her
best performance in the whole movie.

Speaker 2 (41:00):
Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 1 (41:02):
So did you know that this movie, despite making more
than double its budget, was universally maligned.

Speaker 2 (41:10):
That is well, the fact that he made double its
punche of that.

Speaker 1 (41:14):
More than double.

Speaker 2 (41:14):
It's crazy.

Speaker 1 (41:15):
Okay, I'm going to read a couple of quotes to you.
So Steph Lady or Steve Lady, who wrote the first
drafted screenplay, said, and I quote, the film was a
shocking disappointment, a misshapen monster born of Kenneth Brana's runaway ego.
He took a poignant, thought provoking tragedy and turned it
into a heavy metal monster movie. The casting of Robert
de Niro as the monster was beyond inexplicable. So when

(41:38):
I read this a couple of days ago as I
was prepping, and the way my little seventeen year old
heart broken half that be played this, Yeah, and then
like again, I love Kenneth Brana. I'm a Kenneth Broughna apologist.
I was devastated to learn that everyone was mad at
him and that it was probably his fault. Because if
one person says you're bad, maybe there's a misunderstanding of
multiple people say you're bad, you're probably bad. And multiple

(42:01):
people said he was bad, even by bad, I mean
was kind of a dick about him. Yeah, So I
was shocked by that. I also have a quote by
Frank Darren Bant. But I've got to slip back into
my amniotic fluid or I won't be able to finish
this podcast. So we're going to take a quick break
and we'll be right back to hear what mister Walking
Dead had to say about Kenneth Brown. Is Frank, it's

(42:24):
dye ghl. We are back talking Kenneth Brown, as Mary
shows Rake. It's tye that'll never not be funny to me.
I teased before that we were going to hear from
Frank Darren Bant, so we know that the person who
wrote the original draft of the screenplay didn't like this.
Here's what Frank Darren Bond had to say. It's quite

(42:45):
a long quote, so strap him. The best script I
ever wrote and the worst movie I've ever seen. There's
a weird doppelganger effect when I watched this movie. It's
kind of like the movie I wrote, but not at
all like the movie I wrote. There's no patience for subtlety.
It has no so patients for quiet moments. It has
no patience period. It's big and loud and blunt and
rephrased by the director at every possible turn. Keth bron

(43:08):
directed this as well. Cumulatively, the effect was a totally
different movie. I don't know why Bronna needed to make
this big, loud film. The material was subtle. Shelley's book
was way out there in a lot of ways, but
it's also very subtle. I don't know why it had
to be an operatic attempt at filmmaking. Shelley's book is
not operatic. It whispers at you a lot, which is

(43:28):
a very intelligent observation. The movie was a bad one.
That was my waterloo. That's where I really got my
ass kicked most as a screenwriter. Bronna really took the
brunt of the blame for that film, which was appropriate.
The movie was his vision entirely. If you love that movie,
you can throw all your roses at Ken Bron's feet.
If you hated it, throw your spears there too, because
that was his movie. I have never heard anyone saying

(43:51):
this much baddestuff about Kenneth Braud and like my Little
Hamlet Loving Heart was like, oh no, because I also
I have a lot of love and respect for and
reverends for Frank Darren Bott. I would I love to
see the phone call where these two were screaming at
each other because you go it, yeah, you know it happened.

(44:11):
I do like this movie so almost like.

Speaker 2 (44:12):
It will through my roses, yeah feet, I mean it's
not a bad movie. No.

Speaker 1 (44:17):
I also think it's very funny through the long lens.
As you've said before from twenty twenty back to nineteen
eighty four, I don't find this movie particularly loud or
heavy metal or opera ratic, like in the World of
the MCEU, it was like, I actually think I don't
think the movie's really subtle in anyways, but I think
it's solid and dramatic.

Speaker 2 (44:38):
Also the fact that he would go on to later
create The Walking Dead, which is yeah, yeah, so I
think it's like okay, the pot Calleen kettle Black.

Speaker 1 (44:47):
But I will say I would love to read what
these two iterations of the screenplay looked like.

Speaker 2 (44:52):
That is interesting because.

Speaker 1 (44:53):
We'll never we'll never get it. This was before every
screenplay ever was online. But I would love to see
like also, so to see like, is it as subtle
as your claiming it is, because we have no choice
but to believe these quotes. Yeah, And am I defending
a movie because I kind of like it and one
of my pet actors, isn't it Yeah, totally, that's my production.

Speaker 2 (45:13):
Sure. But I think it's like we're also able to
like look at this objectively because of time.

Speaker 1 (45:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:19):
And it's like we didn't work on it, and we did,
we didn't work on it. And also it's like we've
seen a breadth of other work from Kenneth Browna and
is like, sure, is it a little self serving for him?
Of course?

Speaker 1 (45:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:31):
But that being said, it's like like Kenneth Browna didn't
get to make the choice for the creature. No, It's
like he didn't have like other choices that he was
able to either make or sign off or contribute on.
But it's like I don't necessarily think the ways out
the means out weigh the like the pros, wait the cons?

Speaker 1 (45:53):
Yeah, yeah, the ways justify the means. Yeah. And then
the last quote that I have is from Roger Ebert,
Let's critic, who gave it two and a half stars okay,
and said, I admired the scenes with Robert de Niro
as the creature so much, I'm tempted to get so
much I'm tempted to give Mary Shelly's Franket sign a
favorable verdict, but it's a near miss. The creature is
on target, but the rest of the film is so frantic,
so manic, it doesn't pause to be sure its effects

(46:15):
are registered. So I found this really interesting because, like you,
in my opinion, the creature is the worst person part
of the film. So I went and looked at a
lot of other critiques from the time, and I don't
know what was in the water in nineteen ninety four,
but everyone notes Robert de Niro as being the highlight
of this film and all the Victor stuff as being
the detractor, And I was like, I think the complete inverse.

(46:37):
I really like watching him come into his hubrisk with
the unnecessarily topless shots, and then once it's the creature's
revenge quest, I'm having a less good time.

Speaker 2 (46:47):
Yeah, I think. I think a lot of this. I
think too, is like kind of like that larger conversation
of you have actors and you have movie stars one
hundred percent, whereas like this time not to say that
Robert de Niro is in an act.

Speaker 1 (47:00):
No, but by now he is in his movie start.

Speaker 2 (47:01):
But this is literally like the peak, like the post
Godfather posts a raging Bull.

Speaker 1 (47:07):
And before he becomes a meme because he's got too
many divorces and takes everything Yeah, comes his way yeaheah.

Speaker 2 (47:12):
And so it's like this is like the height of
Robert Jannairo's career. Of course he's going to be more
favorable in the limelight of like mass media or like
especially like US publications. Yeah, but he's not bad. He's
not bad. He's just not it's bad casting for this
what this is?

Speaker 1 (47:32):
Yeah. And then lastly, I want to tell you that
Mary Shelley's Frangans Sign came second at the box office's
opening weekend nineteen ninety four. Can you guess what movie
it came second to. It's a it's a genre movie.

Speaker 2 (47:47):
Uh. I was gonna say, you probably don't know, like
what nineteen eighty four.

Speaker 1 (47:52):
Yeah, I know that's early for us.

Speaker 2 (47:56):
Yeah, I mean I'm probably still like three years old.

Speaker 1 (48:01):
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:01):
No, I was like, we're babies, yeah, toddlers nineteen four
h and No, No, I mean I'm just selfishly, I
don't even think this is the same year. I'm going
to say a interview with the Vampire.

Speaker 1 (48:14):
No. Good guess though? It was Stargate Wow, which is
crazy because I was going to Stargate. It was like
a mixed bag.

Speaker 2 (48:22):
Yeah movie, and.

Speaker 1 (48:22):
It's only gone on to success because of the television shows.
But I was fascinated that it would that it was
beaten by Stargates. So Stargate was number one and Mary
Shelley's frankan'sign was number two, and so much of my
personality that would come is derived from those two of basis.

Speaker 2 (48:35):
That's fascinating.

Speaker 1 (48:36):
Yeah, yeah, all right, as we are wrapping up our discussion,
it's time to do our various ratings. So Patrick, I'm
going to ask you the best actor, the best scene,
one to five bregout rating, and then the impact on
pop culture. Would you like to answer first? Would you
like me to answer, well, don't. We'll go one at
a time.

Speaker 2 (48:55):
Sure, we'll go one at a time. I can. I
can answer first.

Speaker 1 (48:59):
Alrighty, who do you think is the best actor in
Kenneth Brown? Is Mary Shelley's frank Side.

Speaker 2 (49:05):
Who do? Okay, I think there's a difference for me
at least for the best actor, and like who my
favorite person in the movie?

Speaker 1 (49:12):
Give me them both.

Speaker 2 (49:13):
So I think probably Ian Holm is my favorite person
in the movie, just because I think it's kind of
not necessarily like a throwaway part, but I think it's
just could have been a lesser actor exactly. I think
he's so endearing and charming and it's like I genuinely
believe what he's like portraying on screen, and then probably

(49:34):
the best actor. I mean, like Kenneth browna has to
has to hold up so much of so much of
the movie.

Speaker 1 (49:40):
I don't think it's I don't think it's genuinely fair
to give it to anyone other than Kenneth Brown because
you love all the criticisms you wanted him, and many
of them are correct. He does not give a bad
performance as Victor Fraggots side.

Speaker 2 (49:52):
I mean, it's like what we a lot of what
we've already disclosed, It's like this this movie, parts of
this movie feel like very theatrical. Yeah, and it's like
he's gonna get view like a really good theatrical performance.
And like the fact that a lot of the criticisms
are saying that there's no subtleties, there's no like I'm like.

Speaker 1 (50:09):
I'm like, oh, just you wait, sweetheart, It's gonna get
so much.

Speaker 2 (50:12):
Yeah, it's it's gonna get so much worse than it
is at this current.

Speaker 1 (50:17):
Suited dead see how you feel about the sun the
subtlety in this. But I also think what you're speaking
to is what you and I and I know Jason cheers.
It's why we like the first Thorn movie. He brings
a scale and an epic quality to Thor that I
think all future Thorn movies are left. Yeah, and I
think it's one of the only movies that Chris has
with this ever delivered a believable performance.

Speaker 2 (50:38):
Yeah, And I think that's because he can get those
performances out of actors.

Speaker 1 (50:43):
Shakespeare will do that. For you, friends, what do you
think is the best scene? And I'm okay if we
want a table that it's alive scenecause I think even
though it's too long and it's flood, it's certainly the
most iconic scene in any friends.

Speaker 2 (50:54):
Sure, sure, I mean, like I think, I think that
is like that has to be like a placeholder, like
in and of itself. It has to be like an
island on its own. I think the best scene for me,
I I on I.

Speaker 1 (51:10):
It's difficult because there there's a bunch that are pretty good.
There's a couple that are very good.

Speaker 2 (51:15):
And there's a couple that are like I really enjoy
the like when he's at medical school.

Speaker 1 (51:21):
That's what I was in the sequence where he's like
debating everyone and grading and yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:26):
It's like when you're first like seeing him kind of
like in his element. Yeah, he's like talking about like,
oh what about all of these philosophers and like he's
arguing with the guy from the school, and then that
leader like gets him in his relationship with John Cleese
and so it's like we're actually like learning more actively
about like how research Chile will develop, but then also

(51:46):
how othered yeah he is from all of his other
fellow classmates.

Speaker 1 (51:51):
Yeah, because they call him out immediately and they're like
they're basically like, uh, this guy.

Speaker 2 (51:55):
They're like, oh, bro, you're like you're a witch.

Speaker 1 (51:57):
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:58):
No.

Speaker 1 (51:59):
It's also a very romantic idea I think of what
go of what higher education is supposed to be. I
think even though obviously there's a bunch of stuff in
it where you're like that we know, now that's not
how medical science is because it's a period piece, but
that's the that kind of debate and passion is what
you hope you get from going to college. Or university
or whatever spoiler word, not always.

Speaker 2 (52:18):
But just trauma.

Speaker 1 (52:19):
Yeah yeah, just a lot of crying is what we've
done today. But I think it if you're if you're
like a smart kitterer, academically minded, you're like, yeah, that's
what I That's what I wanted it to be. Uh.
In a rating of one to five, Brego's one being
the worst, five being the best, where do you place
Kenneth Brown as Mary Shelley's Frankuets side, I'd.

Speaker 2 (52:38):
Probably do it solid two and a half Bregos front half,
front half.

Speaker 1 (52:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, fron half.

Speaker 2 (52:44):
I think there's a I think there are like a
really there's a lot of good things here, like like
I could wax on about like the beautiful sets, Like
I was really entrapped by a lot of the set
pieces here.

Speaker 1 (52:58):
I was like, I we also just don't do that anymore.

Speaker 2 (53:00):
No, and like we don't see that anymore. And I
think what we talked about too is like all the
practical elements. Yeah, it's like you have real sets. You
have It's like it felt very again, very theatrical, very tactile,
but it's like getting to like run around these spaces,
but also like use and optimize these spaces to the fullest.
Like that was so attractive to me and I was

(53:21):
I was really like, wow, I miss this. I like
miss when like movie making was about this.

Speaker 1 (53:28):
They don't make them like they use to. I think
I'm going to be a little bit more generous than
you and give it a three because I would recommend
people watch this. Yes, it's not perfect, no, but I
would say, like, if you are looking for something to
watch during spooky season, if you like anything about the
Frankenstein mythos, if you like Kenneth Brana, I don't think

(53:48):
i'd recommend it to Robert de Niro fan No, I
would probably also if you like Helena Bottom Carter, I'd
be like, it's a really interesting early like evolution into
as you, as you said so eloquently earlier, who she's
about to become.

Speaker 2 (54:00):
Certainly you can definitely see the steps.

Speaker 1 (54:02):
Yeah, but she's still she's still beautiful enough in that
classic way to be playing the young ingenu Yeah, like
it's so wild when you you know I I knew
her from that that redacted show, that redacted series where
that kid went to wizard School. Trying much to say
it anymore, because also it sucks. That's what I knew
her from first, and I think a lot of other

(54:23):
people it's interesting to see her play like just the
young pretty girl. Yeah, because you're like, but she's the
she's a scary lady, and I like her more as
a scary lady, and she was good to be scared
playing the scary lady. Yeah. Yeah, And I'm also she's
still the pretty girl, but she's also the scary lady.

Speaker 2 (54:35):
But it means way more fun in this. She hats
to do both. She has to be the pretty girl
and then in the.

Speaker 1 (54:39):
Scary lady and has the best death in the whole movie. Feakly,
what do you think the impact on pop culture is?
That is that's not a great sentence. What impact do
you think this movie has a pop culture?

Speaker 2 (54:50):
I definitely think at the time, I understand like as
we've kind of like talked about, it's like I understand
like not that they're soft booting like a dark universe here,
but it's like I think.

Speaker 1 (54:58):
Leaning in that direction.

Speaker 2 (54:59):
Certainly, definitely leaning in that direction. I think it was
trying to bring home the idea of like the Frankenstein
meet those and like what it actually is rather than
getting away from it being about like a bumbling green
makeup creature.

Speaker 1 (55:16):
Yeah, an igor Yeah, and all of those trappings that
we know from the Sillier version.

Speaker 2 (55:21):
And so I appreciate in that aspect. I think this again,
this movie is only able to ride the cotails from
Frankie four Coppola's Dracula.

Speaker 1 (55:32):
So far, Yeah, so far.

Speaker 2 (55:34):
And so it's like whenever I feel like these are discussed,
it's like ultimately tossed up between the two, and one
far exceeds the other.

Speaker 1 (55:42):
I think it also, I think weirdly and we hit
on this earlier. Its impact is we've seen them try
to reboot either the Universal Monster movies or the Hammer
Monks because it's all the same canon, I don't know,
ten times now and they're doing it again.

Speaker 2 (56:01):
Yeah, we're right now.

Speaker 1 (56:03):
Yeah. And I think the lesson and the impact that
we should take from the nineties early nineties version of
that is it can't be done the early films of
the twentieth century. I would say between the thirties and
the fifties, we're so much lightning in like the fact
that Invisible Man is as good as it is. I mean,

(56:23):
James Will obviously is the reason why. But a lot
of that happened because it was weird. Nobody cared, and
they just did their own little thing, and they were
only tied together in the most ancillary ways. This isn't
an MCU where you're getting a lot of crossball, like
we didn't get Keanu Reeves didn't show up in this movie,
you know what I mean, which is what would have
happened if this was being made right now. These were aller,

(56:45):
our younger contemporary movie stars. But I think the lesson
to be taken away is that it doesn't You don't
have to remake something with the intention of it all
tying together. Doesn't all have to be a shared universe.
And when something is is lightning in a bottle like
that's the same thing with Lord of the Rings. Leave
it alone. You're never going to be able to make

(57:05):
as much I think. I think this movie is better
than nineteen thirty one's Frankenstein, Yes, but it will never
share the cultural impact because of when it came along,
no matter how far you exceed it. And my number
one fear with the success of Wicked is that in
two thousand and thirty nine, one hundred year anniversary we're
going to get a Wizard of Oz reboot.

Speaker 2 (57:25):
Oh, it's inevitable.

Speaker 1 (57:26):
The Wizard of Oz does not need to be rebooted. No,
And even if that movie is good, which it won't be,
it will never be nineteen thirty nine Wizard of No.

Speaker 2 (57:36):
I mean, like, it's just I think it's hard because
it's like you said, the Lightning and the bottle thing.
It's like they hit so hard the first time that
they tried to do something and that is.

Speaker 1 (57:47):
What and then Frankstin did it again with Bride.

Speaker 2 (57:49):
Yeah, and so it's like then they were able to
like double down on it. So it's like, for however
long media goes, Yeah, that will be the only thing
that will be associated with like that title.

Speaker 1 (58:03):
Yeah, you'll never surpass that. If you would like to
see more Frankenstein, if you would like to watch any
of the movies that we referenced here, or read the
original book, you should. It's imminently readable. We have a
cool website page. It's geekistory, lesson dot com, slash recommended Reading.
You can pick all of those up in your format
of choice, so go over there for our full kind
of brought us Mary Shelley's Frangstein recommendations, Patrick, where can

(58:26):
people find you all over the internet? Where can they
follow you? Where can they come and fight you? And
where can they give you money?

Speaker 2 (58:32):
Sure, if you're wanting to discuss you know how we
can of finding a little creature together or the like.
You know, I'll help you, We'll figure it out. You
can reach me on Instagram or Twitter. I refuse to
call it x P E mcmill. That's p E m
c m I L L.

Speaker 1 (58:53):
And what have we learned today? Well, today we have
learned that the only possible way you can improve on
Frankenstein is by taking Victor's shirt off. If you want
to hear more with Patrick, be sure you are visiting
us over on Patreon. That's Patreon dot com, sash Jwi
and Patrick is joining us this week for geek History
lesson extra and giving his spooky season horror recommendation my God,

(59:16):
I can't wait, Family Friendly and otherwise, And also if
you want to hear him talk some superheroes, he joined
us for our most recent Movie Club on Superman Returns.
And that is almost two hours of Patrick being the
champion for Brandon Ralth against My Hatred Hey, Ralph.

Speaker 2 (59:31):
I love Superman Returns. I love that, so it's always
a fun time to talk about it.

Speaker 1 (59:36):
It was so much fun. You can follow the podcast
everywhere on social media at geek History Lesson. I'm gonna
encourage you to follow us on threads because threads is nice.
It's twenty eleven Twitter that we all miss, oh god much.
You can find me all over social media at Ashley V. Robinson.
You can find Jason at jowin jaw i n but
you already know that. Patrick, Thank you so much for

(59:59):
joining us, Thank you much for having me. Class is
now dismissed.

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