Myths & Legends Begging for a Modern Movie Adaptation

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Why do just some myths get adapted over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Over again, and some never see the light of day.

Speaker 3 (00:19):
Jason, Oh, it's a very specific question to like throw
me in the deep end here, because some are popular
and some aren't.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
Ooh, okay, very sync.

Speaker 3 (00:28):
I liked that. That's the honest answer. If a legend
is popular, it will stay with us. If a legend isn't.
But also it also depends on like the world and
what's going on in the world. If you know, it's
it's like, look at cowboys, biggest genre of the nineteen
fifties and sixties kind of went away in the seventies

(00:49):
and eighties that were embracing a more technology filled world
and existence.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
And I came on the uprise and kind of replaced
it in the sixties.

Speaker 3 (00:57):
And now that we're on the other side of you know,
however you feel about the internet and social media, we're
kind of yearning for the simpler time. So what comes
back cowboys?

Speaker 2 (01:06):
Neo Western's exactly that.

Speaker 3 (01:08):
So it's just it's all popularity in time. It just
like depends on the time and the feeling of people.
This legend might be more popular, and this legend might
be more popular. But also, let's just say this, if
a legend is poorly written and not a very interesting story,
it's never going to be popular.

Speaker 1 (01:27):
Or if we don't have access to a full manuscript.

Speaker 3 (01:31):
And what are you referring to at that?

Speaker 1 (01:33):
Specifically, the Epic of Gilgamesh comes to mind because it's
translated from tablets and some of them are broken, so
we you can find a quote unquote full manuscript, but
it's a broken translation.

Speaker 3 (01:46):
Yeah, I mean I have a deeper theory of Gogamesh
than that, but yeah, yeah, I don't know if I
need to say this something podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:51):
Yeah, we'll all be the hero of this podcast and
say hello and welcome to Geek History Lesson.

Speaker 2 (01:56):
I'm asked to Victoria Robinson and.

Speaker 3 (01:58):
You can be my hero, bab, Welcome to Geek History Lesson.
As Ashley already said, this is the podcast where we
take one subject, one legend, one myth, one hero from
beyond history and tell you a little bit about them
in a little bit less than an hour. And today
it's not just one. It's a whole bunch of them.
It's a whole gaggle, whole cavalcade word of them. As

(02:22):
some would say, if you listen to the last week's episode, yes, exactly.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
So if you don't know this, I'm going to explain
it to you now. Over on our Patreon that's patreon
dot com Sasha one. We do a whole other podcast
called Geek History Lesson Extra, where we talk for longer
about other subjects and change.

Speaker 3 (02:39):
Actually, some would say way too much time. Many people
have been begging us to shut up.

Speaker 2 (02:45):
That'd be so funny if you became a patron just
to be like, please.

Speaker 3 (02:47):
Well you have to stop shut up. I just cannot
stand the sound of your voices anymore.

Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yeah, that's what excess for.

Speaker 1 (02:53):
Uh. And we have been this year soliciting people's prompts
and listener questions and we go a really really good
one from a super friend, Adam Roberson, and so we said, well,
we will simply be making this a whole episode and
saying it out loud with our entire chest. So shout
out to Adam, thank you so so much for this

(03:14):
incredible question.

Speaker 3 (03:15):
And yeah, if you're not we're definitely not telling him
shut up.

Speaker 2 (03:17):
No, absolutely not speak more.

Speaker 3 (03:18):
Actually, do you want this podcast?

Speaker 2 (03:20):
By the way, I mean, Adam does have a great
voice for us.

Speaker 1 (03:22):
First, Yeah, we'll sell you guess your lesson for surprisingly cheap.

Speaker 3 (03:26):
We're not missing legends, No we're not.

Speaker 1 (03:29):
But if you want to have such an important foot
step in gee kiss re lesson, go check out the Patreon.

Speaker 2 (03:35):
It's super super fun.

Speaker 3 (03:36):
So let's talk about Adam.

Speaker 1 (03:37):
Yeah, Adam's question is besides Hercules, great pitch.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
By the way, Jason, what's he talking about? I believe
you're pitch for a Hercules movie?

Speaker 3 (03:45):
Yeah, it is a Patreon episode.

Speaker 1 (03:47):
Want what other stories of mythology would you like to
write or see? Like, do you have any stories from
our Thurian legends that you would like to tell? Also,
would you be willing to tell a story about characters
that don't necessarily get spotlighted all them much? Could you
see yourself or somebody else writing a good Dionysus or
Bacchus story, for example. So we're gonna take this jumping

(04:09):
off question. The idea of a Dionysus story horrifying.

Speaker 3 (04:14):
Petrifying from my mythology.

Speaker 2 (04:17):
I would say, go watch Curligula. That is what a
Dionysus movie would be.

Speaker 1 (04:23):
Yeah, absolutely great, kind of deep pool with that deity
right there. So we're gonna take that, and we're going
to take some inspiration for the pop culture sphere, and
we're gonna talk to you today about Minston legends because
Jason and I recently watched a movie called The Return,
which is awesome that is based on the Odyssey and.

Speaker 3 (04:42):
Only really the last action.

Speaker 1 (04:45):
Only really the concept of the end of the audist.

Speaker 3 (04:48):
Yes, and it was awesome. It was so awesome. We
should also say this episode was very inspired because you know.

Speaker 2 (04:57):
While I'm getting to the second half of foot.

Speaker 3 (04:59):
I'm sorry, I won't miss up your return.

Speaker 1 (05:00):
Yeah, so let me ask you this, Yeah, Jason, do
you know, to date, at the time of this recording,
how many film adaptations of the Odyssey.

Speaker 2 (05:09):
There have been?

Speaker 3 (05:11):
Okay, are we not counting?

Speaker 2 (05:13):
We're not counting anything coming up finished and released.

Speaker 3 (05:16):
Oh man, I'm this film.

Speaker 2 (05:17):
It's not film and television.

Speaker 3 (05:19):
Okay, So Armanda Sante's Odyssey does not count. Three fifteen
That many? That many Odyssey films?

Speaker 1 (05:27):
Yes, not all of them are in English, to be fair, okay,
but yes, fifteen Wow, and we're getting another one, I
think in two parts by Christopher Nolan.

Speaker 3 (05:35):
When was the last American one. The Return before that
one hold on and I Will turn is technically European in.

Speaker 2 (05:43):
Italian distributed in an America idea.

Speaker 1 (05:46):
Now, some of these, I will say they did count
things that were inspired by the Odyssey. Also Cold Mountain,
which structure is based on the Odyssey.

Speaker 3 (05:56):
That's I don't know if I would include those, but fair.

Speaker 2 (06:00):
Yes, so, uh it does the return.

Speaker 3 (06:04):
Four, I'm actually talking about a real like it's the
actual myth.

Speaker 1 (06:08):
Uh, I'm I can look this up.

Speaker 3 (06:11):
I would rather not. It's not podcast it.

Speaker 2 (06:13):
It's definitely old. It's definitely been out for a while.

Speaker 1 (06:16):
So fifteen and I so in the spirit of leading
up to the Christopher Nolan The Odyssey adaptation, because Jason
and I are all in on it and interested, I
would say cautiously optimistic.

Speaker 3 (06:30):
However, I'm based on cautiously interested. It's that that's it's
a very strange cast.

Speaker 1 (06:35):
Yes, but we're all in on the concept of adapting
the Odyssey. As we've talked about several times.

Speaker 3 (06:40):
I think the Odyssey is due for a big budget
movie version.

Speaker 2 (06:45):
Yes, but there are some casting choices where I'm going
huh wrong.

Speaker 3 (06:48):
The cast is very strange. Yeah, it's it's starting with Odysseus.

Speaker 1 (06:51):
Yes, it's giving the Dune cast where you're like, so,
am I in the Odyssey?

Speaker 3 (06:56):
Is everyone in Hollywood? I feel like everybody is in
the Odyssey? Yes, over bring their grandmother.

Speaker 1 (07:01):
We are going to be because the movie comes out
next year. We're gonna be doing kind of a slow
build up to the Odyssey launching with self launching with
this episode.

Speaker 3 (07:08):
Yeah. Oh oh is this talking about the Greek legends
and stuff?

Speaker 1 (07:11):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (07:11):
Yeah, okay, so we're gonna like start slipping in some
more mythology based episodes in here leading of to mythology
And we haven't confirmed this, but I will throw this
out there, so I will throw this out there if
you want to throw it hashtag Nolan. Yes, if you
would like us to do sort of a return retrospective

(07:36):
on Christopher Nolan going through the movies of his career.
Now we've done Batman begins. I don't know if he
did The Dark Knight or not, I'm uncertain, but we
could go through the Chris Nolan movies and we would
figure out a schedule that would would perfectly stop right
before the Audissey comes out.

Speaker 2 (07:52):
And would sort of culminate in the red so you
could like.

Speaker 3 (07:55):
Watch through all the Christopher Nolan movies with us and
we could talk about them, bring some guests on. So
if you're interested in that, go to our various social
media's hashtag Nolan yes yes, or on our Patreon. Where's
the best place they could do that? On threads.

Speaker 1 (08:08):
I'm gonna say threads is gonna be the best place
you'd do it. Yeah, So what's our threats at key
history lesson? Thank you, because that's what all of our
social media No, I appreciate it. Before we dive into
the list, I also want to add, just for some
like current cultural context, that Malana is an adaptation of
a non Eurocentric piece of mythology, is from Polynesia, and

(08:29):
this year Malana to released and it is one of
the most successful film adaptations of the year. Last year
film adaptations of the year, so we are.

Speaker 3 (08:39):
Was Monit also based on or I guess they're talking
about Maui Malai.

Speaker 1 (08:44):
And Tafiti and like like it is, it is based
on myths and legends, so I'm sure too was even
even further adaptation than the first movie was. But I
just want to I want to get people in this
mindset that even though myths and legends are dated and
they come through the long lens of history, there's still
pulp culture and they're still very very relevant. Not even
modern myths like Cowboys and comic books like Wana. Those

(09:08):
those myths are like ancient history before writing. Sometimes ancient history.

Speaker 3 (09:12):
Well it's you were talking about. You brought up Yogamesh
of it all? And also, I'll just say it with
my full chest because you brought the ma Wana piece out. Yeah,
I actually think Yogamesh would make an epic movie.

Speaker 1 (09:23):
Great, then let's launch it to that because Gilgamesh is
on my list.

Speaker 3 (09:26):
Okay, then I'll save it.

Speaker 1 (09:28):
Okay, then we can save it, okay before we completely dive.
And I do have an important question, because it's going
to revise some of the truth.

Speaker 3 (09:34):
I have an important answer.

Speaker 2 (09:36):
Do you count cryptids as myths and legends?

Speaker 3 (09:41):
I don't, But if you have one that you would
like to bring up in your in your list of curiosities,
I would love to hear it. I have.

Speaker 2 (09:47):
I have two pitchures. Let's go for it, then, Lockness monster,
what are you laughing at me?

Speaker 3 (09:56):
I don't know why. I just didn't expect that one.

Speaker 1 (10:01):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (10:02):
I guess maybe it was like the Jersey Devil. It's
gotta be big. It's a cube of camera. No, it's
gotta be big.

Speaker 1 (10:08):
But you didn't think that the Scottish Cryptid was not
the most Ashley charge.

Speaker 3 (10:12):
I know it is it very much? Is I just
Lockness Monster was the last thing I thought was just
really surprised. I what do you think this is? It's
gonna be a movie like shirt Nado though, right?

Speaker 2 (10:23):
No, no, no, no, no, no no.

Speaker 1 (10:25):
I absolutely have a full pitch for the Lockedness Monster,
as in did you have full pitches for all of these? No?
As an animated Land Before Time style story of a
young child dinosaur who gets lost in the lock and
travels through like a vortex and comes up into Yeah,

(10:46):
as voice probably by my beloved Billy Boyd.

Speaker 3 (10:49):
You know what, boy? Yeah, it's gotta be a girl,
don't you think? Or woman?

Speaker 2 (10:52):
Because it's nessy?

Speaker 3 (10:53):
Yeah, a man.

Speaker 2 (10:54):
Gender is a construct, that's true.

Speaker 1 (10:56):
It could be whoever or but you could also do
you wanted to do this.

Speaker 3 (11:00):
Game with roads Rose Leslie, Rose, Rose Leslie, are you available?
I like how I.

Speaker 1 (11:04):
Pitched my Scottish crush and then you pitched your Scottish.
You could also do the thing where you could have
every time Nessie pops up out of the lake and
checks in on humans. Something else is like William Wallace
could be there, Like we could go through Scottish, his
mel Gibson.

Speaker 2 (11:19):
Not not mel Gibson, William.

Speaker 3 (11:21):
Wallace, Robert the Bruce, the Bruce. Yeah, and that same.

Speaker 1 (11:24):
Guy can play him, that guy who's played him like
three or four times.

Speaker 3 (11:28):
A gentleman who's also on Horizon.

Speaker 2 (11:29):
Yes, yeah, yeah, he's a great actor. He's great on Horizon.

Speaker 3 (11:31):
He's a really good actor.

Speaker 2 (11:32):
Okay, okay, so you laughed at me.

Speaker 1 (11:34):
My second pitch was like a Bigfoot koom yetti because
yedies actually do exist in if.

Speaker 3 (11:40):
I'm there is a Bigfoot movie's definitely animated movie.

Speaker 1 (11:44):
Yeah, but I also think you could if you didn't,
you could. Yeah there's Aleiko one Weere, Hugh Jackman, the
Missing Link.

Speaker 3 (11:50):
Yes, yeah, it was certain there was a Bigfoot enemy.

Speaker 2 (11:53):
I'm certain there's many big footed I mean.

Speaker 3 (11:54):
Everybody remembers Harry and Henderson's.

Speaker 2 (11:56):
But I do think you could a.

Speaker 3 (11:58):
Movie called Son of Bigfoot. They came out in twenty seventeen.
And there's a movie called Bigfoot Junior.

Speaker 1 (12:03):
I definitely think you could do something like any if
anyone's seen the Netflix movie The Ritual with Dan Stevens,
where it deals with Welsh mythology on carriag dress and
it's very scary in somebody's fingers going to meat grinder.

Speaker 3 (12:18):
Zakiolfan Akis was the voice of Bigfoot in that Link movie.
Oh I thought hu Jack Hugh Jackman I think was
the adventurer that came to find him.

Speaker 2 (12:24):
Oh, well, it should have been Hugh Jackman.

Speaker 1 (12:26):
I think you could do a serious, scary Bigfoot style movie,
but I think I think you've decided that's too silly
and we're gonna move on from there.

Speaker 3 (12:38):
There is actually a pretty scary Bigfoot horror movie. Give
me a second. I'll tell you the name of it.

Speaker 2 (12:43):
Is Okay Doki, because otherwise, you know cryptids.

Speaker 1 (12:47):
You do get down to things like Mothman and the
Jersey Devil, and I personally think, and I love a
Mothman story, Don't get me wrong, I think that strays
a little bit more into science fiction than fantasy and
what I think the point of a myth and legend.
Myth and legends are is that their fantasy stories. I'm sorry.
In my research I found a twenty eighteen movie starring

(13:07):
Sam Elliott called The Man Who Killed Hitler and Then
The Bigfoot Aiden Turner Sam Eliot, Aiden.

Speaker 2 (13:16):
Turner waits your whole Dark Aiden Turner, Yes, Yes.

Speaker 3 (13:23):
Decades after ending World War Two by assassinating Adolf Hitler
in an undercover operation, unsung hero Calvin Barr is called
upon by the government to hunt down the fabled Bigfoot,
the carrier of a deadly plague that could destroy humanity.

Speaker 1 (13:40):
My brain hurts, yeah, uh, then Bigfoot is this streaming?

Speaker 2 (13:47):
It sure is fantastic. Okay.

Speaker 1 (13:50):
So since you've nay say that, let's start with a cryptids. Yeah,
crypt no more, Jason, you heard it first.

Speaker 3 (13:59):
I think the the idea of this is that myths
and legends to me says that there is already a
story sort of construct baked in. Yeah. Yeah, and with myths,
with cryptids, there aren't really like you have to invent
the story whole clock and to me, like, myths and
legends are cool because they are stories that we have

(14:20):
passed through this center, like it is when you actually
think about it, Let's you know, go back to the Odyssey, right,
It is a miracle that the Odyssey is still in print. Yes,
that one of the oldest and Gilgamesh is the oldest
known story. Yeah, And the fact that we even know

(14:40):
the word Gilgamesh is kind of a miracle. And it's
kind of also astounding. And I also think it bakes
into us how much the humanity is just a story
based creature. We learn lessons and themes and pass on
knowledge through story. Yeah. It's the reason why we have

(15:04):
so much pop culture.

Speaker 1 (15:05):
That's the reason why I like music.

Speaker 3 (15:07):
Yeah. Yeah, So, so I think that's let's go, let's
let's lean away from those cryptids aren't really legends.

Speaker 2 (15:14):
Okay, well you brought up the Odyssey.

Speaker 1 (15:16):
The Odyssey is actually kind of a sequel to the
story of the Iliad, which is the story of the
Trojan War. So I want to dive into the world
of the Trojan War, and I want you and I
to time I think of all the wars. Yeah, if
I was the one one moreal co sign if.

Speaker 3 (15:34):
With Trojan War, if we were to do an episode
of top ten wars, I think Trojan War be number one.

Speaker 2 (15:38):
Bro, do you think you could even come up with
ten more?

Speaker 1 (15:41):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (15:41):
Would they all be fictional?

Speaker 3 (15:43):
Oh, I could throw If I can throw fictionals on there,
I could do twin well.

Speaker 1 (15:46):
The Tropan War is fictional. Troy was a fishing village
in Persia. Says you, says I, indeed, says says I just.

Speaker 3 (15:53):
Said, tell you about a time machine. It's it's a
real war.

Speaker 2 (15:56):
I mean, co sigde. The Trojan War is a real war.

Speaker 1 (15:59):
I also want you and I to tell a particular
story about our most recent experience with an adaptation.

Speaker 2 (16:05):
Of this story. But we're gonna do that right after this.

Speaker 1 (16:10):
We are back on geek history lesson. We are getting
so history, we're getting ancient. We're getting and.

Speaker 2 (16:16):
It's not prehistory. It's definitely post his Strics. It was
written down. We're getting pre common era, and we are
talking about all things.

Speaker 1 (16:22):
The Trojan War aka the War Jason's favorite favorite real
war ten out of ten. Hey, if you're going to
build a giant, big.

Speaker 3 (16:30):
Horse and sneak its out of a base, you're my
favorite war.

Speaker 1 (16:32):
If you have a giant and a demigogue on your side,
and the other guy that you're going to fight is
a real dummy with an older brother who aris puts
all his powers into I'm interested.

Speaker 3 (16:43):
The real question is is they were on a beach.
Where did they get all that wood to build that
giant horse?

Speaker 2 (16:48):
They broke about their ships. They built it out of
their ships.

Speaker 1 (16:50):
Oh man, that's what happens in the Iliad that But
then what disease take back to go to back to
There is presumably.

Speaker 3 (16:58):
Wood in Troy, not that much.

Speaker 2 (17:01):
But just think about it. So many people died during
the Trojan War, so many.

Speaker 3 (17:05):
Greeks they died. They as many boats to go.

Speaker 2 (17:11):
They went back in the one day anymore because everyone died.
That doesn't happen in every war.

Speaker 3 (17:16):
No, no, no, no, not all of them.

Speaker 1 (17:18):
No, no, no, for for for people of a certain age,
for people who are are peers of Jason and I.
I think we can all remember the healcyon days of
the movie Troy, starring Brad Pitt And let me tell you, friends,
Troy is a.

Speaker 2 (17:32):
Movie because Jason, I are you watched New Years?

Speaker 3 (17:35):
It's a movie.

Speaker 1 (17:36):
Troy illustrates that no matter how ancient your story and
how interesting it.

Speaker 2 (17:40):
Is, you can still adapt it super poorly.

Speaker 1 (17:44):
Uh. And as we watched it and screamed throughout the
whole entire thing. We did talk about how the Iliad
and the Odyssey might be stymied by a traditional film adaptation,
which is what's so interesting about this Christopher Nolan movie,
and they might benefit from a longer form adaptation. You
and I like specifically brought up things like HBO, which

(18:06):
would be a great host.

Speaker 3 (18:07):
To do like a mini soign. I think what you're
trying to say is that they should be mini series.

Speaker 2 (18:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's exactly what I'm trying to say.

Speaker 3 (18:12):
Yeah, because it's going to be The Odyssey is going
to be three hours minimum, and even at three hours,
it's going to be a tough translation to put into
three hours.

Speaker 1 (18:20):
Yeah, because there's a lot of things that happen in it.
And what's interesting is, in addition to the Christopher Nolan movie,
there is an additional adaptation of the Odyssey and an
additional adaptation of the Iliad that are in development. I
don't know how far. I think they're quite early in development.

Speaker 3 (18:33):
I mean, somebody else is also making an Audissey movie.

Speaker 1 (18:35):
Well, they are making a movie that is adapting Circe
Oh the book. Yeah yeah, yeah, and by Madeleine Mercer.

Speaker 3 (18:43):
We should give her credit and uh.

Speaker 1 (18:45):
Now I can't remember what the Iliad one was because
I can't remember her name. Son of Achilles, the Son
of Achille, Song of Achilles, which is all told from
Patrick Cless's point of view. So it's going to be
interesting because if the Iliad movies, the Odyssey movie succeeds,
I guarantee you this Audissey movie only happened because of
the uptic of I and I think they're sort of
he was like one of the biggest books of a
couple of years ago. Yes, Madeline Miller, Madelon Miller, which

(19:09):
is a great book. Those fantastic Also, if you are
interested in the Odyssey, the most recent translation has been
done by a woman and it's considered to be very
very good. So, Jason, would you like to see a
modern adaptation of the Trojan War story slash the Iliad
that I'm not Troy.

Speaker 3 (19:26):
If they're smart, they will. If they're smart, they will
make it a prequel to Christopher Nolan's Odyssey movie because
Christen Olan won't make it. Yeah, and they will take
a couple of those actors universal will and put them
in the war.

Speaker 1 (19:40):
Because this is the thing that I think folks don't
always understand, is in chronological order, it goes the Iliad,
then the Odyssey, because the Odyssey is the odyssey home
from Troy to Ithaca. The Aniad, which was to be fair,
written by Virgil. So the Iliad and the Odyssey were
written by Homer. Yeah, and the Aeniod was written I
think maybe a couple hundred years later by virtual in

(20:04):
Latin first, which is why if you have a classical
education in Latin, if you're a nerd like me who
takes it in high school, you are often excuse me,
forced to memorize pages and pages and pages of the
Aniad like I can still do the first page in
Latin from high school. The Aniad is about a Naus

(20:24):
who escapes who is a character in the Iliad. So
the Aniad happens concurrent to the Odyssey. But if I
were adapting it, I would do Iliad Odyssey Anian. That's
how I would do it. Do you agree with that
even though the last two are concurrent?

Speaker 3 (20:39):
Tell me, tell me no, they're going with the Odyssey
because it is the biggest one.

Speaker 1 (20:42):
Oh, I understand, but I'm saying I was adapt sure.

Speaker 3 (20:45):
I just think because you have to realize that even
though Troy was twenty years ago. It was a stinker, yes,
but it was a movie that a lot of people saw. Yeah,
so I think you have to avoid that connection.

Speaker 2 (21:02):
I agree.

Speaker 3 (21:02):
So I think it is the smarter choice to go
Odyssey first. I understand, is the best character of all
three of those stories. I know you don't agree with that,
but I'm sorry. Like I think, I think most English professors.

Speaker 1 (21:19):
Surely, from an intellectual perspective, he is. I have a
hard time with character in the In the Iliad too,
I have a hard time with the Odysseus because he
is He's the words I want to use to describe
him or swear words.

Speaker 3 (21:33):
He's problematic, but he's a.

Speaker 1 (21:35):
Very competic I like I like Hector more because Hector is.

Speaker 2 (21:37):
More of a classic here.

Speaker 3 (21:38):
The difference is that because your heroes of the Iliad
are Achilles and it's Hector, and Hector is not that interesting,
and Achilles is a jerk, is a twenty one year
old butthole giant butthole jerky.

Speaker 2 (21:57):
The most interesting thing about Achilles is Patrick Lis.

Speaker 3 (22:00):
And Odysseus is problematic. Yeah, but Odysseus is a real man.

Speaker 2 (22:05):
My other big thing about Odysseus is he cheats on
his wife, and.

Speaker 3 (22:08):
I have a hard time with that. That's why I
said he's problematic.

Speaker 1 (22:10):
Yes, but I think Odysseus, if you look through the
long lens of classical literature, we're obviously going to look
at some of that here. I think Odysseus is the
earliest example of a writer grappling with PTSD.

Speaker 3 (22:21):
Yeah, I said that.

Speaker 2 (22:23):
I'm not saying it's well done, but I think that
that is what is going on here.

Speaker 3 (22:26):
I've written this into many projects that I've written myself,
and it hasn't made it into things. Odysseus is the
greatest war veterinory, yes, of of all of pop culture
and all of literature. It's Odysseus because it is.

Speaker 2 (22:36):
And that's what's great about the return and the return.

Speaker 3 (22:38):
Which is why I highly recommend that movie with Ray
Fines is because a lot of the return plays with
this idea that maybe the Odyssey didn't happen, Maybe he
was scared. And the reason why this man has been
gone for twenty years is because he literally just couldn't
grapple with all the murder and terror that he saw

(22:59):
and rot and that he did himself. And that is
a very interesting postmodern reconceptization of the Odyssey, to take
a hero and do that way a hero even And
that's why Christopher Nolan's not going to give us that.
I bet you christ En Noland does lean it a
little bit into the PTSD of it all, but I
bet you we're only going to see that in the beginning. Yeah,

(23:21):
And I bet you he's going to pepper in that
that all this insanity is happening on top of the war.
But yeah, no, Odysseus is the greatest war veteran of
all time. And and and I'm not saying this to
forgive his sins, because his sins are plentiful, but there
is a part of it. And this is something that
they do great in the return. Is that the idea
that like he does those sins because he's so broken

(23:42):
from the war.

Speaker 1 (23:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, let me ask you one
final thing about the Trojan War specifically, and then we'll
move on to other legends unless you have something else
that you want to bring up.

Speaker 2 (23:52):
And that is, if you were tasked with adapting the
Trojan War.

Speaker 3 (23:57):
Uh huh, wow, that's a heart that's a hard I'd
be one. I'd be like, that's a hard job.

Speaker 1 (24:01):
Yeah, but you'd you'd be up for it.

Speaker 3 (24:02):
I guess sure.

Speaker 2 (24:03):
And you have to pick a POV character. Are you
picking Odysseus for the Trojan War?

Speaker 1 (24:08):
Uh?

Speaker 3 (24:08):
Huh?

Speaker 2 (24:09):
No, who are you picking? You really need one in
each camp? I understand that.

Speaker 3 (24:13):
Yeah, I mean it's probably Patrick cliss He's the most fascinating. Yeah,
although I don't I've never liked Achilles. I don't like Achilles.
I don't think he's interesting.

Speaker 2 (24:23):
You like Achilles until you turn twenty five in your
frontal lobes of.

Speaker 3 (24:27):
To be honest with you, I can't pull the name
off the top of my head because I don't know. Yeah,
I honestly think you might be better served by being like,
who is a character that is an Agamemnon's camp that
is not Agamemnon, like.

Speaker 2 (24:40):
The well, that's interest because that's where Odysseus is, like the.

Speaker 3 (24:43):
Second or third person down? Yeah, like who? No, I'm who?
I'm who? Like is works for Agamemnon? Yeah, because that
would be the person that like works under the general
because Odysseus is not really an Agamemnon's camp. Odysseus is
a Odysseus.

Speaker 2 (24:58):
You have to look at all his first general is
men Alaus, who's his younger brother.

Speaker 3 (25:02):
Yeah, it's I think you have to go.

Speaker 2 (25:05):
But I'm just saying it is technically allow him.

Speaker 3 (25:07):
It's not him because he's the guy. But what I'm
saying is that you have to look at the Trojan
war as that it is all these different brigades, Yeah,
from different islands. Yeah, like Ajax for example, They're all
coming under the command of Agamemnon. Like Agamemnon is the
number one general. And the reason why Odysseus, I think
is the most interesting character is because Odysseus is the

(25:27):
only other one of those brigade generals that basically will
tell Agamemnon off. Yeah, yeah, orders, yeah, I'll go back
to my goats.

Speaker 2 (25:36):
Yeah, I want to go back to be the king
of Goat Island.

Speaker 3 (25:39):
Whereas everybody else is like, oh, yes, Agamemnon, you are right,
you are you know, and and and Odysseus keeps sticking
at to Agamemnon by going too Achilles and be like, hey,
you thought about pulling this off, and then really make
Agamemmo mad at Achilles, like I like making people mad Yeah,
I just love.

Speaker 2 (25:52):
The idea of Odysseus being like, I want to go
back to my goats.

Speaker 3 (25:56):
Yeah, you want want to go back to my goats?

Speaker 2 (25:58):
Also like a like witches.

Speaker 1 (25:59):
How if we talked about which is I'm really into witch?

Speaker 3 (26:01):
I love goat cheese and witches and which is and not?
My son.

Speaker 1 (26:06):
And Weaving?

Speaker 2 (26:07):
Have you ever seen Penelope Weave?

Speaker 3 (26:09):
I'll tell you what if I watch a woman weaes
am I right?

Speaker 2 (26:14):
Which that through me?

Speaker 1 (26:15):
Because I thought his name was Telemachus, that the disperate pronunciation.

Speaker 3 (26:19):
Talk about some other missing ledges. I feel like we've
only talked about one. I know. The problem is is
you and I.

Speaker 1 (26:23):
Can talk about uh, the Trojan War and the Odyssey.
Let's Hercules in the Twelve Labors. You talked about this
more exclusively on a previous episode.

Speaker 3 (26:33):
An amazing movie movie?

Speaker 2 (26:34):
Are maybe serious?

Speaker 3 (26:35):
Both would? It would be perfect for both you. You'd
the biggest problem with that adaptation. And I think I
said this on the Patreon episode. You have to make
Hercules sympathetic Hercules. Here's the real thing. Most of the
characters in especially Greek mythology, but most mythologies are kind
of problematic. Yeah, but why is that. It's because they're

(26:56):
dealing with a different moral code because they lived five
thousand years ago. Yeah don't, we don't. They would have
no clue what the internet is. They actually would probably
think that most of us are slaves. Let's throw that
out there. If Odysseus or Hercules saw modern society, yeah,
you know what they would say. They'd be like, wait
a minute, let me get this straight. You spend most

(27:17):
of your lives getting in a tiny metal horse to
drive to a job, to sit there for ten hours,
to drive back in your metal tiny horse to go
back to your wife or your husband, and only get
to see them for every two hours at night, and
then repeat the same thing. You are a slave.

Speaker 2 (27:33):
So they would view us working for money as indentured servitist.

Speaker 3 (27:37):
Yes, they would see us all like they like most
of those heroes. And let again, and I only bring
this up just to say that, like, that is just
a different viewpoint.

Speaker 2 (27:46):
So these are ancient heroes we're talking about.

Speaker 3 (27:48):
To go back to that, you would just have to
find a way to make Hercules the heroic Hercules and not.
And they made that Dwayne Johnson movie a couple of
years ago, and I thought it was terrible. Yeah, you can't.

Speaker 1 (28:00):
It says something.

Speaker 2 (28:00):
On the best Crcule's adaptation we've had is the Disney musical.

Speaker 3 (28:03):
It says something when I actually disagree with that. It
says something when the best Circles adaptation we've ever had
is the one with Kevin Sorbo.

Speaker 1 (28:10):
I've not seen it, and I'm sorry, I'm certainly not
going to start now. I would recommend that I feel
I feel like I would be disappointed. But it's the
best Circles adapt It's better than that Disney music, it
really is.

Speaker 2 (28:22):
But did he put the Gladden Gladiator?

Speaker 3 (28:24):
Yeah? He did. Have you seen his yellow vest?

Speaker 1 (28:26):
No? Maybe? I don't think it's suposed to be yellow.
I think its supposed to be like tan, right, like
it's suposed to be like skin.

Speaker 3 (28:31):
It is bright yellow? Oh really, it is bright neon yellow.

Speaker 1 (28:35):
All right, So we're yes on hercules. Okay, I'm going
to take us to a completely different cannon.

Speaker 3 (28:40):
Finally, let's go.

Speaker 1 (28:42):
Celtic mythology is a particular pet project of mine, something
I'm super super interested in. I would call this an
adaptation of the Morgan, but it's more accurately the adaptation
of the Irish epic I certainly cannot pronounce it, but
it to English is the Cattle Raid of Kohli, which
is about the hero Cuck Culinoy. So if you're not

(29:06):
familiar with Celtic mythology, you should be. It's really interesting.
The Morrigan is one of the more interesting goddesses. She
is the goddess of death. If you know any witchy
people in your life, or if you've ever been to
like a witchy store, you haven't see statues of her.
And she's surrounded by crows or ravens because a lot
like Odin.

Speaker 2 (29:24):
They're her main animal that she works with.

Speaker 1 (29:27):
And during the Cattle Raid of Kouhli, she kind of
serves an aries style role where she goes and she
puts all of her power and all of her magic
behind the hero cu Culin But she does this in
kind of a tricksy way because she's a goddess of death.
So like on the battlefield when he sees a wolf,

(29:47):
it's actually the Morgan and she's there trying to suss
out what's happening, and she's trying to help him give
I think she's a more interesting POV character into the
world of Celtic mythology than the hero because cuck Culin
just kind of does exactly what Henry the Fifth does,
and every other story you've heard about a guy who
is kind of famous and becomes a king by winning

(30:08):
a war like that is, it's that hero's journey trajectory.
So I would be like, let's get down on what
is death like in Celtic mythology.

Speaker 3 (30:15):
Is the Morgan in an emmy or an ally?

Speaker 1 (30:17):
No? She well, she's an ally, but she's tricksy because
all Celtic gods. The idea of fairies comes from Celtic mythology,
right and fairies.

Speaker 3 (30:24):
But she helps him become king.

Speaker 2 (30:26):
Well, she helps him win the war.

Speaker 3 (30:29):
See it's interesting because to me, I'm automatically like, she
can't be the POV character. She's the antagonist. Ooh interesting,
she's low key.

Speaker 2 (30:38):
Yeah, she's a bit loki asque.

Speaker 3 (30:39):
That's me. Did I say that?

Speaker 1 (30:42):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (30:42):
Oh, that's it's so funny.

Speaker 2 (30:44):
I don't speak Irish, please.

Speaker 3 (30:45):
I have watched there's a movie. I cannot remember what
it is, and I do not think it's about the Morgan,
but there is a character in it called Couculon and
I and I always was like, what an interesting.

Speaker 1 (30:54):
Nay, yeah, he's this big irish Yeah it makes sense.

Speaker 3 (30:57):
No, it has to be.

Speaker 1 (30:58):
It has to be from his She'll often like she
often will crop up like someone will be like, oh,
it's the eve of battle and I'm real nervous and
there's some crows that.

Speaker 3 (31:08):
Are hanging and get a wife at some point.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
I don't know her name off the top of minee because.

Speaker 3 (31:12):
Okay, so here's my real thing. The POV character is
his wife.

Speaker 2 (31:16):
Is she a god? Is she a priestess?

Speaker 1 (31:18):
No?

Speaker 3 (31:19):
Just make her a normal lady. But you you to me,
the story is is that you know, it's always like, well,
how did you become king? How did you you were
nobody or nothing? And then he's like, oh, don't worry
about it, don't worry about it. And then she encounters
him talking to these like creatures.

Speaker 2 (31:33):
Yeah, it's this uneasy truce that they have.

Speaker 3 (31:36):
It's it becomes the story about sharing your loved one
with somebody else. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:40):
So like on the on the night of battle, if
a soldier's nervous and they see like a crow or
a raven or sometimes it's a wolf, it's just a
crow raven Sometimes it's a cat, it will shift into
the Morgan and she'll be like, you're nervous because you're
gonna die tomorrow. Yeah, Like she's not a nice but
it's like she'll die and the Morgan takes you.

Speaker 2 (31:58):
It's scary.

Speaker 3 (31:58):
Yeah, and but he also has like sort of a
devil's bargain with her, so yeah, king yeah, see that's it.
It has to be. It has to be either him
or the wife.

Speaker 2 (32:06):
Okay, I buy that.

Speaker 1 (32:07):
But I just think she's a really interesting figure because because.

Speaker 3 (32:11):
If you think about it interesting, like think about like
an a two four movie like that would be really
interesting because.

Speaker 1 (32:17):
Women are never the patron saint or the goddess of death,
because women bring you into the world. I think it's
so interesting that in Celtic mythology specifically, a woman takes
you out of the world and she's scary, like it's
almost antithesis of what a mother is. And I think
that's why I find her very compelling. But that was
my pick, was that sort of the cattle ray of

(32:38):
COOLi and Ku Coulan's ascension to fame. Okay, this one
I picked. I've picked two more Greek myths specifically because
They've already been adapted into other pop culture, but not movies.
In films Persephone and Hades, which is the basis of
Laura Olympus.

Speaker 3 (32:53):
Yeah. Yeah, also in Hercules, the Disney movie.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
And Orpheus, which is the Hades Town musical. Oh man,
I think Orpheus is so boring.

Speaker 3 (33:03):
I agree with you. I don't think Orpheus would make
an interesting movie or TV show.

Speaker 2 (33:08):
Yeah, I think I think it's an interesting story you
tell around the campfire.

Speaker 3 (33:12):
I think Hades Town adapted into TV show could work.

Speaker 2 (33:16):
Yeah, I think it could be cool.

Speaker 1 (33:18):
They did it really like Steampunky. He really needed into
like the kind of nineteen thirties juke joint thing that
they're going for.

Speaker 3 (33:23):
Yay, Yeah, you said it in the South. I think
that could work. But I think the legend in itself
I don't think could work.

Speaker 2 (33:30):
What about a Persephone in Hades.

Speaker 3 (33:32):
Maybe, I think you'd have to change that one quite
a bit too.

Speaker 1 (33:36):
All right, let's break out and let's talk about another
myth that we've kind of touched.

Speaker 2 (33:40):
On on the pod before.

Speaker 1 (33:42):
Let's do Ragnarok, and let's do it properly. Sure, let's
make it scary. Ragnarok if you're not familiar is the
Norse mythology. It's it's the end times myth, it's the
world's getting destroyed, it's.

Speaker 2 (33:56):
Yig, You're still the world's tree.

Speaker 1 (34:00):
All of the realms in Norse mythology basically implode and
reset every mysteriously how long. Only the priests and priestesses
know this, and that is what Ragnarok tells. But everything
is reborn after that, which is interesting because it is
quite close to the theory of the Big Bang, right, like,
maybe there's as far as we understand, right, maybe there
was nothing, but also maybe there was something. It was

(34:21):
just the universe before this, right, and something is going
to take us out in the same way that the
universe was taken in, And I just think that's sort
of an interesting correlation.

Speaker 2 (34:28):
But I would love to see any Norse.

Speaker 1 (34:30):
Mythology adapted properly, because Thora is really scary, and Loki
is really scary, and Balder is really scary, and Freya
is really like they are these tough people who survived
in a Scandinavian climate, And I would love to see
a the Northman style.

Speaker 2 (34:51):
Adaptation of Ragnarok. You need all these epic characters and
then you slaughter them in the back.

Speaker 1 (34:55):
Held.

Speaker 3 (34:55):
What I was going to say is that because of Thor. Yeah,
in the Marvel Cinematic universe, I think the only way
this works is you have to ignore all of the
godly powers.

Speaker 2 (35:09):
Oh, you just make them like people.

Speaker 3 (35:10):
They have to be people, that's cool, And you just
make it this thing and you could in them. You
make it like there is some tribesmen thousands of years
down the road telling the story of this. And because
they've told the story, that's why they've added superpower.

Speaker 1 (35:25):
And they've been venerated to this godhead status.

Speaker 3 (35:28):
They were just a kingdom. Don't take it out. And
you could maybe hint at magic. But and I think
that's again because we know movie superhero Thor Now. I
think you just have to make these like the Thirteenth Warrior. Yeah,
and like the Northmen. You have to make them very real,
very grounded, just badasses.

Speaker 1 (35:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (35:50):
And that's where like the Legend, like that would be
an awesome streaming series, that also would be an awesome trilogy.

Speaker 1 (35:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (35:56):
Yes, if you really built to it, Yeah, if you
really earned it.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
Yeah, because then when they all die, it's because.

Speaker 3 (36:02):
You make you make the Frost Giants they're not actually
frost giants. They're just the tribe.

Speaker 2 (36:07):
They're the weirdos who live even further north.

Speaker 1 (36:09):
They're the ones that live like all in the snow. Yeah, yeah,
that's cool. Yeah, I just think there's a lot to
be mined there. And honestly, I'm kind of disappointed that
the Marvel Cinematic universe has taken a lot of the
most interesting elements and done a really crummy job of
a do well.

Speaker 3 (36:22):
But that's the problem. Is because the Marvel universe is
all about popcorn PG. Thirteen candy. Yeah, and sometimes and
this is a problem across all of pop culture right now. Yeah,
is that like we don't really have too many things
that are adult.

Speaker 1 (36:37):
Yeah, there's a lot of infantilization and look, uh uh, millennials.

Speaker 3 (36:40):
It's us we are to blame. But like every once,
that's why, Like when I saw The North Men, even
though I know it didn't do well, I loved it.

Speaker 1 (36:47):
Oh that blew my mind. And that movie's great because.

Speaker 3 (36:49):
Sometimes the cool thing about being an adult is acting
like an adult, is going around making love, snapping necks
and fighting fire.

Speaker 1 (36:59):
I think that's also what you and I responded to
in the Return is The Return is a hard movie
to watch. Yeah, but that's what's really rewarding. And most
of the adaptations of the Odyssey are that PG. Thirteen, popcorn, canny,
noble hero. Yeah, And that was the great thing about
The Return is that it made him like they were like, well,
what if Odysseus was a real person and actually went
through the Trojan War? And it was an interesting, I thought,

(37:22):
brilliant way to tell that story and took all his
clothes off in that one scene he did. Okay, it's
finally time to talk about Gilgamesh. To open this can
of worms.

Speaker 3 (37:30):
Gil good mesh, We're gonna make you.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
Wait, We're gonna make you, aren't it. Come back for
more Gilgamesh right after this.

Speaker 1 (37:38):
JHL. We are back and we are keeping the g's
rolling with Gilgamesh, which we've talked about from the beginning
of the episode, and now's final time to discuss it
in full. If you are not familiar with the epic
of Gilgamesh, you should do what I'm doing this year,
and you should read.

Speaker 2 (37:50):
It because I've never read it before and I really
wanted to. It is so ancient.

Speaker 1 (37:56):
There's quite a long range from when people thought it
might have been written, but it's basically was thought to
have been written roughly two thousand years before common era,
so before.

Speaker 3 (38:05):
The years it's considered zero to really be in a
lot of ways, the first story.

Speaker 1 (38:09):
It's also the first epic poem. It is the first
hero journey. It comes from ancient Mesopotamia. I also want
to say I don't speak or read any language that
is even remotely related to Sumerian or Akkadian, which it
was originally written in, So if we mispronounce the names,
it's all done with all due love and respect.

Speaker 3 (38:26):
Can I. So it's interesting Earlier I said you talked
about Gogamesh. I actually think Gyogamesh would make an epic movie.
I think a lot of the reason why it won't
probably happen is racism.

Speaker 1 (38:36):
Yes, because this is set during the Third Dynasty of Earth,
so it basically comes to the Middle East, the Middle East. Yeah,
I also want to tell you that when I was
a kid, a lot of where I learned about comic books,
about movies, about all the various things was I would
hear about them in books or I would hear about
them on television shows. There was a television show that

(38:56):
I learned Gogamesh from and it has the best synopsis
of Gogamesh. And if I may please do, can I
read it to you?

Speaker 3 (39:03):
Please do? It's very short. Gilgamesh a king at Urik.
He tormented his subjects. He made them angry. They cried
out loud, Send us a companion for our king, spare
us from his madness. In Kidu, a wild man from
the forest entered the city. They fought in the temple,

(39:26):
they fought in the streets. Gilgamesh defeated. In Kidu, they
became great friends Gilgamesh and in Kidu at Uruk. The
new friends went out into the desert together where the
great bull of Heaven was killing men by the hundreds.
In Kidu caught the bull by the tail. Gilgamesh struck

(39:50):
him with his sword. They were victorious, but in Kidu
fell to the ground, struck down by the gods, and
Gilgamesh wept bitter tears, saying, he who was my companion
through adventure and hardship, is gone forever. Those are words

(40:13):
spoken by Patrick Stewart in Star Trek the Next Generation
episode Dharmock. And that was the first time that I
had ever heard the words GigaMesh, and because of that
episode is why I read GigaMesh. I believe Darmak is
written by Joseph Manowski, but I will correct, I will
credit but that that was one of those things where

(40:33):
I had never heard about Gogamesh, and I was like, well,
if Captain Mccaarrt is talking about it, it must be
great and I need to know about it.

Speaker 1 (40:41):
I'll just add this thought, we don't have to go
down the Star Trek Joe Minoski too deeply.

Speaker 3 (40:45):
To me, that's the difference between the story of Gogomesh.

Speaker 1 (40:47):
Three Modern Star Trek and Modern Star Trek was in
the sixties and the nineties television shows we were referencing
things like Gilgamesh, and a lot of modern Star Trek
is referencing.

Speaker 3 (40:57):
Current popcorns, current stuff right now.

Speaker 1 (40:59):
And I'm not saying there's nothing modern that couldn't busily
as important, but I just think that that's an interesting optionation. Okay,
I have since I've been reading Gilgamesh, and I want
to say Gilgamesh was written out a bunch of tablets,
and some of them are missing, and so that's why
the translation is considered imperfect.

Speaker 2 (41:15):
I am reading the Penguin Classics version, and it is
imminently readable for a modern reader.

Speaker 1 (41:21):
It's not confusing. There's a lot of great cultural contexts
in it. So don't be afraid that it's that ancient
that you're not going to be able to understand it.
You will absolutely understand it. So I've been thinking a
lot about Gilgamesh this year. I've been discovering a lot
of references and patterns that I have seen. Another thing,
Gigash is all over modern popular.

Speaker 2 (41:35):
Also, it's it's genuinely so good.

Speaker 3 (41:38):
It's really it is so good. So Gilgamesh and is
such a good name. But there is when you look
at Gilgamesh and in Key dou it's Batman and Robins.

Speaker 1 (41:49):
Oh I have okay, I have casting choices for both
and a director for this project.

Speaker 3 (41:53):
Oh I'd love to hear it.

Speaker 2 (41:53):
Okay, let me say all the names and then I
will tell you what you know these people from?

Speaker 3 (41:57):
Okay, So did I step on you by the way?

Speaker 1 (41:58):
You? No?

Speaker 3 (41:59):
No?

Speaker 1 (41:59):
You? So who I would like to play Gilgamesh is
ram Sharan, and who I would like to play in
Key To is Anti Rama Rau Junior. I would like
it to be directed by s. S Rajamuli. You know
these people if you have seen the movie R R R.
They are the two leads and the director of r
R R.

Speaker 3 (42:17):
I want them to make Gilgamesh I've always saw and
key Do is younger.

Speaker 1 (42:22):
Well, so I would cast Anti Ramaau Junior as in
key Do. He's the guy who fights the tiger in
the forest. He's the water bender of the two who
you said should play Hercules in the Marvel Cinematic Universe
Once upon a Time. Yeah, And ram Sharan is the
guy who I think should play Gilgamesh. Who's the police
officer pretending to be the police officer.

Speaker 3 (42:41):
Yeah, he's the double agent.

Speaker 1 (42:43):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (42:43):
Interesting. I would have flipped those two.

Speaker 2 (42:45):
Really, Yeah, tell me more.

Speaker 1 (42:47):
I would have made the I just like they have
such a perfect chemistry. Who's the tiger gentleman nt ram
Arau Junior.

Speaker 3 (42:53):
He seems like Gilgamesh to me because I think.

Speaker 2 (42:55):
That he's not mean. Gilgamesh is mean?

Speaker 3 (42:59):
Is he's but in key Dou is the wild man
from the forest.

Speaker 2 (43:03):
Yeah, so's this guy?

Speaker 3 (43:04):
Yeah, I know, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (43:05):
I guess he's the softer of the two actors.

Speaker 3 (43:08):
That's fair. I guess I would flip them. That's the guy.
That's the way the interesting.

Speaker 1 (43:12):
Because I'm gonna say with my whole chest, i don't
know if white people should be adapting or can't adapt. Girl,
I don't know if the Hollywood studio system is what
Gilgamesh is cut out for.

Speaker 3 (43:20):
That's fair.

Speaker 2 (43:21):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (43:22):
I mean, I will say though, like the Odyssey, Yeah,
that I think Gilgamesh has infiltrated literature so much so
as though that just the same way where I would
be like, I would never make the assumption that only
a Greek person can write the audition. So to me,

(43:43):
I would be like, you know, I guess my exception
would be like Gilgamesh and in Key do are so
removed from modern day?

Speaker 1 (43:54):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (43:54):
Yeah, yeah, we are so far.

Speaker 3 (43:56):
We are millions of years away, we are hundreds of
the Yeah. Sorry, I know humans already been around for
four hundred thosand years. Okay, I get it. We're not
millions of years from from.

Speaker 2 (44:06):
No, but we're about as close as you can get.

Speaker 3 (44:08):
We're about one hundred thousand years right. So to me,
I'm very much like I feel like Gilgamesh is of
the world the way I feel like Odyssey is of
the world. Would you do in your point? Would you do,
like make a crack and version of it? They would they? Really?

Speaker 2 (44:20):
Would you do?

Speaker 1 (44:21):
Like?

Speaker 2 (44:21):
Can you imagine the stunts?

Speaker 3 (44:23):
I only say that because I would love ton version.
I'm just saying.

Speaker 2 (44:25):
I didn't say you could write it. I just said
this who I wanted to direct and cast it? Would
you do that?

Speaker 1 (44:31):
The modern classic fantasy thing where you're just like, it's
all colorblind casting every one of every color can play
every role.

Speaker 3 (44:37):
Who cares?

Speaker 1 (44:37):
Because we do not know what ancient Samaria? Yes, I
know we kind of know what ancient Sameria actually looks like,
but none of us are in ancient Samaria. Don't come
for me history nerds. Yeah, but I do think you
nailed it, and I think it's unfortunate. I do you
think racism is a big reason why Gomesh will never
Gilgamesh deserves to stand as venerated as the Iliad in
the Odyssey, if not higher, we should just and it
doesn't hold that pac.

Speaker 3 (44:57):
Case, you understand, because like Gogamesh is set in the
city of or yeah, or as in Iraq, Yes, modern day.

Speaker 1 (45:04):
It's where the most ancient ziggarrottes we know of are yeah,
and that's that's why. And I'm pretty sure you can
make leaps.

Speaker 3 (45:12):
About why uh that's probably why we'll never get Yeah,
but it's it's so no I would I would color
blind it. I honestly like there is part of me
that wants to like make Gilgamesh and in Key do
different races.

Speaker 2 (45:30):
Well, they do come the wild Man could be yeah,
you come from very far away.

Speaker 3 (45:33):
But I very I very much understand the idea that
I'm like, yeah, maybe one of them shouldn't be maybe
they shouldn't be white.

Speaker 1 (45:40):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, well like you can you
can also we don't have to go too far down
this rapple, but you could also make that argument about everyone.

Speaker 3 (45:47):
In the odysty as well. Oh yeah they're very white.

Speaker 2 (45:50):
Yeah, like we're talking about Greece and Turkey here.

Speaker 3 (45:52):
Yeah. Yeah. But I'm just saying like it's it's one
of those versions where because like the Odyssey has become
such a like.

Speaker 2 (46:00):
We use the word odyssey like it took a long
time to drive home and traffic.

Speaker 3 (46:03):
Yeah, it is so well known in sort of the
you know.

Speaker 2 (46:07):
The way transcense pop culture.

Speaker 1 (46:09):
It is just culture. I mean, like this is my
Trojan Horse like. We know those phrases, we know that.

Speaker 3 (46:14):
It's so in our culture, and there's a lot of
there's a lot of Gilgamesh that has flipped into our
storytelling that a lot of people don't realize.

Speaker 1 (46:22):
If you are a if you read Rudyard Kipling, he's
probably the most famous for the Jungle Book, there's a
lot of Gilgameshi this work.

Speaker 3 (46:31):
No, Gilgamesh is one of those stories that I think
should be required in schools. I agree it's not because
I will bring up Gilgamesh and a lot of people
will be like, what is that? And I understand Again,
I did not know what it was until Star Trek. Yeah.
Star Trek told me about Kilgamesh.

Speaker 1 (46:45):
Yeah, but I don't think it deserves to be university
level reading like it should.

Speaker 2 (46:48):
You could read it in high school and you'd be fine.

Speaker 3 (46:50):
That's what I'm saying. I think. I think because I
was required to lead to read the Odyssey in high school.
Yeah fu. In fact, I already read it. I read
it before we got there.

Speaker 1 (46:59):
Same.

Speaker 3 (46:59):
I love Greek.

Speaker 1 (47:00):
Mythology, that's who we were as children. I wish I
was required to read Gilgamesh.

Speaker 3 (47:05):
Same.

Speaker 2 (47:05):
I think I would have gotten the same.

Speaker 3 (47:07):
Thing out of it. I think I would have been
like I think I would have been like Gilgamesh and
Nikto are freaking cool. Yeah, the first almost, but you
know what, they deserve it. They are cool. They're really cool.

Speaker 1 (47:17):
Okay, let's talk about another thing that you and I extole,
the virtue of offense. We don't have something grun it
too long. Sure, King Arthur, we got to have more
King Arthur's. There's so many krumy king arts say this.

Speaker 3 (47:27):
I can almost guarantee you we're going to do a
King King Arthur geek.

Speaker 2 (47:31):
We talk about it literally every year.

Speaker 3 (47:32):
We love King Arthur. King Arthur is awesome King and
it's funny blood Sir Gawayne and the Green Knight. Well,
I also think about this, like, there literally was a
King Arthur adaptation by Guy Ritchie a few years ago
where they tried to make him a thief. It was
more in London and it was really bad. The soundtrack
is so it's funny. There is a good movie hiding
in that movie. Yeah, and I actually don't think Charlie
huntm is the worst choice.

Speaker 2 (47:53):
Sure that some of the heightest powers to post Pacific grim.

Speaker 3 (47:56):
Yes, yes, but there is yeah, because I think I
was like twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, there's a I listen
to that score all the time. It's really good score.
But guy Richie just wanted to modernize it too much.

Speaker 2 (48:09):
That's my issue with his Sherlock Holmes too, and so.

Speaker 3 (48:11):
It didn't It didn't work for you.

Speaker 1 (48:12):
Yeah, I would really love to see the Tristan and
His Olt, which I know is interesting. I know it's
a German adaptation. There is a movie called Tristan and
is old. It's bad.

Speaker 3 (48:23):
I'm actually surprised we haven't there hasn't been an announcement
for a King Arthur because I would say in a
post Game of Thrones world, it's right there a streaming
because King Arthur has everything you want. It has magic, Yeah,
it has a lot of sex. I mean it's literally
about an affair.

Speaker 1 (48:41):
If you adapt The Mists of Avalon, which I know
that author is incredibly problematic, but the books are so
good and they're very feminist, Like that's a great blueprint
for a post game of Thrones.

Speaker 3 (48:51):
There's battle, yeah, it's tons of it. Like to me,
I'm actually kind of there happen, Yeah, Dragon, maybe it
hasn't We just it just hasn't made it down the line.

Speaker 2 (49:01):
Well, clearly you're not a BBC's Merlin fan.

Speaker 3 (49:04):
Yeah, guess it's not good.

Speaker 1 (49:06):
But I loved it.

Speaker 3 (49:07):
I think about like one of the biggest movies. And
that's why I laughed out loud when one of the
biggest movies of the eighties was ex Caliber.

Speaker 2 (49:13):
Yeah, well we had that Kieran Knightley uh whoever played
King Arthur, the post Lord of the Rings.

Speaker 3 (49:19):
Yeah, that was not good that, but that was all
the whole thing that that was there was no.

Speaker 2 (49:22):
Magic in the universe. What is the point if there's
no magic?

Speaker 3 (49:24):
Well that was around the when we also got Ridley
Scott's Robin Hood. Yeah, where it was not Robin Hood,
but it was all these It was again all these
post modern takes.

Speaker 2 (49:32):
Tripping the magic away like half the fun of the magic.

Speaker 3 (49:35):
Yeah, and you can do that to a type. But
if you're gonna do that, which is why we keep
bringing up the return, yeah, you have to have a
specific reason why there's no magic.

Speaker 1 (49:44):
You have to have a very strong point of being
a very strong message. I almost put Robin Hood on
this list.

Speaker 3 (49:49):
I meant to say, I meant to say I got
cut off? Is that sorry? I meant to say no, no, sorry,
the ex Caliber is I laughed out loud in Batman v. Superman.
That that is the movie now that Bruce Wayne goes
to see ex Caliber, not The Mark of Zoro, which
I'm just like, that's cool because that was a huge
movie and I also understand how that would inspire a Batman. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:08):
How about the myth of the City of El Dorado?

Speaker 2 (50:12):
Oh wow, go a little bit more.

Speaker 3 (50:13):
Uh, well, here is that that sentimting movie, The Road
to El Dorado.

Speaker 2 (50:16):
That movie is not bad.

Speaker 3 (50:17):
It's a good movie, got a lot of good songs.

Speaker 2 (50:19):
But the gift where they're like both both, why not both?

Speaker 3 (50:21):
Yeah, that's pretty funny.

Speaker 1 (50:23):
Yeah. I think, particularly in a modern era, I think
you could tell a really cool I don't think I
would do Cortes. I don't know if I would do
European Settler. Guys.

Speaker 3 (50:33):
I was going to say, like, that's the problem with
that movie is because if you're watching The Treasure Hunters.

Speaker 1 (50:40):
Well and it is El Dorado, which is the Spanish
word like yes, we are in, you're in, You're in.
It's like the Pocahontas story. You're in colonizer territory. It
can be a little culturally insensitive. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (50:49):
I was, like I said, if we're if we're we're named,
if we're we're pointing out the problems, and we absolutely
I can point out the problems over here, because like
that is that is literally you're you're showing a movie
about colonization.

Speaker 1 (50:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (50:59):
Yeah, So I don't know if I would do that.

Speaker 1 (51:01):
I don't know, but I do think it's an interesting
story and maybe there's a way to do it where
they all die at the end and we go good
for the indigenous people, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (51:10):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (51:10):
I really doubt it. We all saw, I mean not
everybody but you and I saw A City of Z
and that movie is the City of Z. Yeah city,
And that is a movie where all the white people
die at the end, and it wasn't that fun to walk.

Speaker 2 (51:22):
I thought you were going to bring up Apocalypto.

Speaker 3 (51:25):
Has no white people in it.

Speaker 1 (51:26):
No, I know, I know, I know, But.

Speaker 2 (51:28):
Also it's a problematic movie.

Speaker 1 (51:30):
The last one that I want to put into contention,
and less born Jason has anything that he wants to
bring up is I would love to see a sky
woman and Turtle Island adaptation. If you're not familiar, Turtle
Island is the Indigenous name for Canada because in a
lot of the First Nations myths, Canada is and the

(51:50):
planet is on the back of a turtle, and that's
the land that's sticking up out of the water. And
sky Woman is a woman from the sky who falls
on to the back of the turtle and she meets
beaver and it's it's the creation of the world. And
I just think the stories are really good, and I
think you could do a really interesting like if I

(52:14):
was in charge of it, which I should not be
someone not from that culture, I think you could do
a lot of really interesting underlying messages about like conservatism
and what does it mean to be a person.

Speaker 2 (52:23):
Living in this place?

Speaker 3 (52:23):
How do you?

Speaker 2 (52:24):
How are you a caretaker?

Speaker 1 (52:26):
But I just I really like her stories, and I
like how like the rainbows are created, and I would
just love to see I would love to see more
indigenous to North and South.

Speaker 2 (52:35):
American stories get that kind of treatment. That's like those
big adaptation stories.

Speaker 1 (52:39):
All right, Jason, is there anything that you want to
throw out there before we wrap up about other characters
or other stories that you would like to see in adaptation.
I want your boxus pitch BeO Wolf.

Speaker 2 (52:51):
Yeah they A Will also has had a bunch of
bad adaptations.

Speaker 3 (52:55):
Yeah, but you know what they abe. If you understand
so much about Lord of the Rings, I'm the weird
guy that likes the Roberts of mechas Beowolf. Which one
is that it's the one that was animated with this
Oh yeah, written by a writer who is now canceled.

Speaker 1 (53:10):
Uh huh h.

Speaker 3 (53:12):
And there are some expanding things you know. Also has
a GHL guest Dominic Keating is in that movie. Yep,
I don't hate that movie. I remember when I first
saw it. Also, great soundtrack. It doesn't quite work sure,
but you can see the interesting Also, The Thirteenth Warrior

(53:33):
is basically an adaptation of Beowolf. Yeah, so I think
there's something with Beowolf.

Speaker 2 (53:39):
Maybe Aolf was cool man.

Speaker 3 (53:41):
Maybe it's a mini series and maybe you really lean
into like keeping the village alive for thirteen episodes.

Speaker 1 (53:47):
I also think you could adapt Grendel the book that's
all written from Grendall's perspective. It's very it's very postmodern,
it's very construction out there. I will also say this
not not a myth but a legend. But we talked
about lots of problematic people. There should always be lots
of problematic people in history. But I think he's mostly good.

(54:09):
So I'm gonna throw him out here because he's.

Speaker 2 (54:10):
Hey, we're talking about the Greek gods. We're in cancel history.

Speaker 3 (54:13):
Such a fascinating character. I am shocked that there is
not a George Washington movie.

Speaker 2 (54:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I understand what you're saying, because.

Speaker 3 (54:24):
There is a I think Ron Chernow, the great biographer,
wrote it.

Speaker 2 (54:27):
Yeah, the same guy who wrote the Hamilton I wrote that.

Speaker 3 (54:29):
I read that his George Washington book like ten years ago,
and I was like, holy cow, Like this man is fascinating.

Speaker 1 (54:36):
I also think there's a way, because you're right, he
is a real person, but the myth of George Washington
looms larger than the person, and maybe the take to
do with that both sides is to do that, but
also it is to lean into the return of all
and to point out his foible.

Speaker 2 (54:54):
Yep, and he didn't free them, Martha freed them, yep.

Speaker 3 (54:56):
But then there But it's also the interesting dichotomy of so, yes,
he's a problematic man and then the other side of
it is this idea of like he literally was the
only person who could have who could have the first president.
He's literally the only person. Yeah, and nobody else could
have done it.

Speaker 1 (55:11):
And you know what, I actually think this is a
great way to sort of close up the discussion because
you know, maybe again without getting too contemporary. Yeah, maybe
that's the story we need to tell right now. Maybe
in America, maybe we need to examine our miss.

Speaker 3 (55:25):
Without going any further. You know what, George Washington was
very absolute about wooden teeth. Yes, his teeth actually weren't one.

Speaker 2 (55:35):
It's actually so much worse.

Speaker 3 (55:38):
He was very adamant about no kings ever in America.

Speaker 2 (55:41):
Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 3 (55:42):
He was adamant about that.

Speaker 2 (55:43):
Yeah, because you know who pitched.

Speaker 1 (55:44):
Kings and hereditary positions Alexandra Hamilton.

Speaker 3 (55:47):
Yeah. He His final speech was there, She'll never be
a king in America. There should never be relating to
nothing that. Yes, but that's that. Maybe that's a lesson
that a lot of people need. Yeah. Interesting, and we
learned as we was holding, we learn our stories through
myths and legend. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (56:02):
So thank you Adam for your great prompt.

Speaker 1 (56:04):
Yeah, man to today's episode brought you out of the
Patreon and we and we punked you into the main.

Speaker 2 (56:09):
Stage and you got a little sean, you're a hero.

Speaker 3 (56:13):
We got a little you got a little nervous. We
gave you a little back rub, nice little button, pat
on the button, put you on stage.

Speaker 2 (56:20):
We don't have an HR department, we.

Speaker 1 (56:21):
Could do that, and we okay, a friendly huge respect
blog tied the cape around his neck, fancy red cape,
and we walked down on walked.

Speaker 3 (56:30):
You out on the main stage and and and your
symphony went.

Speaker 2 (56:33):
Just fine, and you slady, absolutely slate.

Speaker 1 (56:35):
I also hope that listeners enjoyed this, because yeah, we're
probably going to be dropping into some more, some more
in such as in future leading up to whatever twenty
twenty six is.

Speaker 2 (56:44):
The odyssey is going to be, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (56:45):
And the recommended reading will be a bunch of stuff
that you can you know, probably a great version of Gilgamesh.

Speaker 2 (56:50):
And my my current favorite adaptation of a transition of the.

Speaker 3 (56:53):
Art social media that you want us to focus on
this week.

Speaker 1 (56:56):
You can find us everywhere at History Lesson.

Speaker 3 (56:59):
I just want to remind, of course, this question came
from patreon dot com slash Johnwin. That's Jawi in over there.
We have lots UPONUS podcasts like Geekisher Lesson Extra. We
have Talking Titans where Ashley and Diego are reviewing every
single episode of Teen Titans animated series.

Speaker 1 (57:14):
Mostly us just talking about how much we love Raven
has kind of been the through line.

Speaker 3 (57:17):
There's like fifty episodes of Jason and Jeremy John about
Justice League.

Speaker 1 (57:21):
Including a new twenty twenty five installment.

Speaker 3 (57:23):
Twenty twenty five installment just came out, so it's all
kinds of stuff like that, including the Movie Club. We're
going through all of the christra reeb Superman movies to
go over there check it out, including a Patreon exclusive discord.
So if you want to check that out and hang
out with some cool people and you want to curse
about Gilgamesh with people, that's the place that do it.
Patreon dot com saze joh when we thank all the
super Friends for doing that and Ashley, uh, I think

(57:45):
it's timed in this podcast. What have we learned today?

Speaker 2 (57:47):
What have we learned today?

Speaker 3 (57:49):
Today?

Speaker 1 (57:50):
We've learned that basically every epic hero that you ever
loved or were interested in could be publicly canceled. Yes,
Gilgamesh is underrated. Yes, and the Trojan War will never
not be interesting. Jason's number one war.

Speaker 3 (58:02):
I think everyone I think we're gonna make a list
of the best wars. I think Trojan War would be
number one.

Speaker 2 (58:08):
I agree.

Speaker 3 (58:09):
I think it's it's where we get all their jokes.
And again, how can you hate any war where they
built a giant horse. That's just a fun war.

Speaker 1 (58:15):
I don't think i'd fall for the giant horse, but
I think I would have fallen for a giant cat. Oh,
so they brought a wooden cat to your thing, You'd
be like, bring it on in, boys, bring me the
baby giant one animal would you have fallen for?

Speaker 3 (58:26):
So wait a minute. So you're at the gates of Troy.

Speaker 1 (58:29):
I am the Princess of Troy. I am Missus hecksher
you are.

Speaker 3 (58:31):
You are Ashley of Troy. You are what they are
fighting the war over. They I don't want to be here.

Speaker 2 (58:35):
She's boring.

Speaker 3 (58:36):
They pull they push a giant horse up there. You're like,
I have notes, Yeah, yeah, can we get a redo?

Speaker 1 (58:44):
I mean, like, horses are cool and everything. They're like,
have you seen my cat? They go back to the
beach and they spend another six months building your wooden guns. Absolutely,
who made a very special appearent.

Speaker 3 (58:54):
Of is just whispering like, what if we just kill
them all?

Speaker 1 (58:56):
Now?

Speaker 3 (58:56):
Do we need the giant horse?

Speaker 1 (58:58):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (58:58):
Yeah, said I would not go. Yeah, which which I woulden?

Speaker 1 (59:01):
Animal? Would fool you?

Speaker 2 (59:02):
A bison?

Speaker 3 (59:03):
Yeah, probably a bubbalo.

Speaker 2 (59:05):
Can you imagine how chunky you would have to be?

Speaker 3 (59:07):
Well, here's the here's the fun fact about it. Nobody
in Greece would know what the hell it was.

Speaker 2 (59:10):
It's also funny because unless they've been to Africa but
not the same type, not the same type, they.

Speaker 3 (59:17):
Would have no clue what an American bison like.

Speaker 1 (59:21):
But can you also imagine that like warm in Paris
just standing on there just being like, why are they
just mantling their ships?

Speaker 3 (59:27):
What are they doing? Just watch them? The hell is
that they got?

Speaker 2 (59:31):
I bet it's a camel.

Speaker 3 (59:32):
That's so many nails?

Speaker 1 (59:35):
Would they I'm gonna ask a very stupid question. Would
they have had nails or is it wooden joinery? They
would have used wooden l Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah,
but I was like, this is this is the Bronze Age.

Speaker 3 (59:45):
It's a lot of joinery. But they would have they
would have hallowed, they would have ye, and they would
have put wooden pegs in it's and then they would
they would have tied it in a lot of places. Yes, yeah, yeah, no,
there are no there are no nails.

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
There's no iron nails.

Speaker 3 (01:00:01):
There are nails, but their hard is hell to make.

Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
Yes, so only so they're not using it to make
their treasure.

Speaker 3 (01:00:07):
They're not they're not using that to build a house.
They're not doing using it to make my cat, because
there would be like, you know what the amount of
work it takes to make one nail and you want
five hundred of these? Uh uh, I got swords to make.

Speaker 1 (01:00:20):
I think I can get five hundred nine at the
home depot exactly exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:00:24):
And then yeah, they're not making nails, all right. Well,
thank you so listening, guest true lesson. Yeah, thank you
all so much for listening to g guess your lesson.
I'm Jason in the Master Victory Robinson and Professor Ashley.
Will you please close out the This legend class is
now dismissed.

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