Should Thunderbolts have been in MCU Phase 1?

From the dark places of the Marvel Comics Universe Geek History Lesson dares to shine a light on the super team - are they heroes? - The Thunderbolts. This team has made it to the big screen world of the Marvel Cinematic Universe led by Bucky Barnes, although on screen it does not appear to follow the comic book team in the slightest. We explore the similarities and differences in Thunderbolts media (Spoiler-free!), and ask the big question: should The Thunderbolts have debuted earlier in MCU history? One co-host thinks YES and one disagrees! Time to listen to discuss The Thunderbolts!


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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:11):
Jason. The Thunderbolts movie is going to be in cinemas
any second now, And you could look at the Thunderbolts
and say, boy, that looks an awful lot like a
team of villains, and a team of villains that I
really know is the Suicide Squad. Now, I know you're
a big fan of the Thunderbolts.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
In the comics and you haven't seen the movie, so
maybe I'll be a fan of the movie.

Speaker 1 (00:34):
So T L. Florence TLDR. What makes the Thunderbolts special
among teams of super villains? What is compelling to you?

Speaker 2 (00:44):
The thing that makes them special is the initial hook
of the Thunderbolts. And again we're going to dip into
the thing about it is that you don't know. The
history of the Thunderbolts is that it was a Kerk
Busiak and Mark Bagley team that was made in the nineties.
And during this time period, it was when the Avengers
and the Fantastic Four and Iron Man and the Hulk

(01:06):
and Captain American Thor were all in a pocket dimension.
So the mainstream Marvel universe had no Avengers. Yeah, and
so they made a bunch of books they remade like
Heroes for Hire. I believe they did a new Kazar
series they did, I can't remember. There's a couple other books,
but one of the books they released in this time

(01:27):
was Thunderbolts, and they were all about these new teams
trying to fill this hole, like who are going to
be the new Avengers basically, and the Thunderbolts were the
team that Kurt Music and Mark Bailey made that was
a brand new name. I've always thought it was inspired
by General Thunderbolt Ross the incredible whole character. And the
interesting thing about it was is that the end of

(01:50):
the first issue they were all brand new heroes. It
was like Citizen V and I think it's mock five
and Songbird and Atlas and Moonstone Believe, and there's a
bunch of other techno I think is one of the guys.
And the end of the first episode issue was the
very last thing, and they kept this secret until it
was published, was that Citizen V, a very patriotic hero,

(02:13):
peeled off his mask and you found out that it
was he had actually a funny thing another mask underneath
the mask, so it was Barren Zema. It was he
revealed that it was Baron Zema and that this team
was the Masters of Evil, and they were like, we're
going to pretend being the heroes so that we can
get all the cool stuff out of Vendors Mansion and
the cool stuff out of the Baxter Building because and

(02:36):
we're going to sell on the black market and we're
gonna we're gonna take this world for fools. And what
happened they played this arc over the first twelve issues,
and what happened at the end of the twelve issues
was that and they got those goals, was that the
every hero except for Baron Zemo, kind of liked the
adelation and kind of liked the fame, and so when

(02:56):
Baron Zemo was like, now's the time to take over
the world, the Thunderbolts turned against him and they were like, no,
we're going to be heroes. And then the rest of
the book became this team of criminals who by this point,
the Avengers had come out and the Fantasy would come
out again, and they were like, well, I don't think
you can be heroes. You're bad guys. You're all bad guys.

(03:19):
And then Baron Zimo was out there being like, you
have betrayed me forever or I guess I should talk
more like Daniel Brule you have I'm bad on Zimo,
And it was this team of like people that had
never been heroes, like you know people. It was a
team full of second chances, like convicts and stuff like that,

(03:40):
and they had to prove themselves as heroes. And in
a lot of ways, it was like watching a team
full of like Dick Grayson's and Robbins learning how to
be good for the first time.

Speaker 1 (03:49):
So so like a bunch of Jason Todd's learning how
to be good.

Speaker 2 (03:52):
Yeah, So like to me, it's all about this idea
of you know, the switcheroo is such a like is
to me is like inherent in Thunderbolts, and it's a
big reason why there have been many Thunderbolts books since then,
and I don't think a single one of them have
really worked hot take because like, once you get past

(04:13):
the original team trying to do their best, yea, it
doesn't work. Like one of the best things. This is
such a long dy tribe. One of the most interesting
things about the original Thunderbolts run is there was a
character named Songburn And this was when Kurt Music was
like writing almost half of the Marvel Universe at the time.

Speaker 1 (04:31):
The late night all of it was like on fire,
so good.

Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yeah, he was writing Thunderbolts, he was writing Iron Man,
he was writing the main Avengers book with George Perez,
and then he was He did a couple of things,
and then he also did this mini series called Avengers Forever.
And if you have not read Avengers Forever, by the way,
should be a title of Avengers movie. I've probably said
that multiple across multiple but it was the storyline about
people about different Avengers from different time periods being gathered

(04:59):
into team to fight cag In the Conqueror.

Speaker 1 (05:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:03):
So the interesting thing about it is that so they had, uh,
it's funny thing. They had two versions of Hank Pam
on there. So they had they had crazy Hank Pim Yellowjicks.

Speaker 1 (05:11):
Slappy Hank Pam, and they had nice Hank Pim.

Speaker 2 (05:13):
And then they had modern day nineteen nineties Hank Pim weird,
and they had modern Hank and jan Or married. Oh yeah,
and so they got to like, look at and it's funny.
The older Hank Pim kind of hid his identity from
the crazy Hank Pim and he had to be like,
oh my god, I can't believe he and so most
of that book he was like, I'm sorry, Jan I'm sorry.
And then there was Captain America that had given up

(05:34):
on himself. But one of the people that they pulled
in was Songbird from the Thunderbolts. Now at that time
she had not been an Avenger, but they did this
thing in there in the book that be like, oh,
someday in the future, she's gonna be an Avenger. And
then the ones that knew who she was were all like, no,
you're a villain. No, you're a villain, and she's like,
I've been an Avenger for five years. What are you

(05:55):
talking about. But that's the interesting thing about the Avenger,
the thought Nderbolts. And then you also have to think
about the Thunderbolts, which I'm so mad they didn't do
in the damn movie, or so maybe they are I
have seen it. Hawkeye eventually became their leader, yes, because
he was also a second chance Avenger. Remember he was
a felon. Anyways, the villains pretending to be heroes, actually

(06:18):
pretending then becoming big guys, good.

Speaker 1 (06:21):
Guys, a guy big.

Speaker 2 (06:23):
Good guys and getting that redemption arc to me that
as the Thunderbolts.

Speaker 1 (06:26):
So to borrow a phrase from the other side, you
like the Thunderbolts because it means hope. So I'm gonna
say hello, and welcome to geek History Lesson. I am
Asha Victoria Robinson.

Speaker 2 (06:36):
And I'm Jason, very confused by that joke, and then
welcome to your university, because this is geek Kiss ross
in the podcast where we take one subject from pop
culture and talk about everything about it in a little
bit less than an hour. And today it's Thunderbolts.

Speaker 1 (06:50):
Time to say, we're exploring Bolts both thunderbolt and why
might we be doing such a thing, Jason.

Speaker 2 (06:56):
Because there's a movie coming out exactly all though it
might not be called Thunderbolts because it has an asterisk
on it which nobody understands. And yeah, and I think
they're going to be called the New Avengers.

Speaker 1 (07:07):
Yeah. And if I could offer a note to uh
Disney marketing, I don't think I don't think an asterix
is the.

Speaker 2 (07:13):
Here's the crazy thing about this, this weird marketing thing
that they've put up. And I will say, as a
Thunderbolts fan, this is something that also bothers me about
this movie. Sure is that little asterix is like, I'm worried,
and again, you might be listening to this way in
the future and I might be completely I'm worried that
after the opening weekend they might take away the asterisks

(07:34):
and it might be thundercol Thunderbolts colon the real title.

Speaker 1 (07:38):
Okay, yeah, yeah, I think you're one hundred percent.

Speaker 2 (07:40):
Right, like New Avengers, Dark Avengers, whatever, it's gonna be
something with Avengers hundred percent, even if it's just Thunderbolts
colon Avengers, the Less Good Avengers or something. And to me,
I'm very much like, well, then just title that from
the beginning. I don't know, especially in a modern social
media pop culture world, I don't understand what they're doing
there with that.

Speaker 1 (08:00):
Man, So Jason pretty much told you everything. I'm going
to tell you. Yes, I'm sorry. So I think we're
actually gonna skip over that right now and jump right
into our discussion. If you're cool with that chatting about
I can add.

Speaker 2 (08:16):
A little bit to the charter, okay, So if you
want to know a little bit more. There have been
multiple titles of The Thunderbolts. In my opinion, the one
that is the best is the original run that started,
I think in ninety seven they did.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
They were first introduced in The Incredible Hulk number four
forty nine in January of ninety seven, and then their
series started.

Speaker 2 (08:34):
Later that year, and then in that book they were
introduced in The Hulk Fighting the Hulk. They were all
good guys, but there was the that was the first
tinge because the Hulk recognized one of their voices and
he was like, why does that voice seem familiar?

Speaker 1 (08:45):
It's so funny that you also mentioned in the intro
that you thought they were named after Thunderbolt Ross, cause
I have and what I thought was a joke in
my notes to be like, tell me about the team
that's all made up of the old white guys from
the Hull.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
Oh well, I don't honestly, because like, I don't know
if that's true or not.

Speaker 1 (09:00):
I don't know if it is, but Thunderbolt Ross is
not an insignificant part of the Marvel Comic shoot verse.
So there's no way that when this team is being
made in the nineties by creators like Kirk Music and
Mark Bagley, that nobody was like, oh, but we already
have general Thunderbolt rocks Well.

Speaker 2 (09:15):
And Kirk Music is with such a he's such a
great writer. I think, honestly, he doesn't get his due.

Speaker 1 (09:21):
And he's a lovely human person.

Speaker 2 (09:22):
He is a lovely human person. And all of his
independent comic books, yeah, Fantam amazing. He is. He's a
writer doesn't get enough doe. He's I think he's a
forgotten writer, and I think he deserves a lot more love.

Speaker 1 (09:34):
And that's a shame because I think he's written my
favorite Avengers run.

Speaker 2 (09:36):
Okay, I think he has written the best Avengers run
I have. I don't think there's any competition. Now some
people might throw it out there. I think he written
the wrote the best Avengers run. There's no doubt in
my mind. Yeah, and that's even taking Avengers Forever out
of the game, which I think is such a such
a good story. But he is such a deep Marvel
Comics lord Nerd. I've always heard the story that he

(09:57):
was like making some sort of commute with his kids,
and he said the way and it was like late
at night or something like that, and he said the
way that he kept himself awake was that he would
just like brainstorm ideas. And he said one of those
nights he brainstormed the Thunderbolts. I would imagine him being
such a marvel nerd because again, naming things and combooks
are so difficult that he just was like, Oh, what
are the weird terms that haven't been used yet? Oh

(10:19):
we have thunderbolt ross, what of the Thunderbolts. Yeah, I
kind of like it. I also kind of like it. It
works for the book because it is kind of a
goofy silver age name, and it is a name that
you're just like, oh, how hasn't this been used?

Speaker 1 (10:33):
But it also has nothing to do with any of them, like,
none of them are lightning power.

Speaker 2 (10:38):
Well, they all have like they all have buckle buckle,
they all have lightning bolt buckles.

Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah, I get it, but it's a.

Speaker 2 (10:44):
Big when Hawkeye joins the team and he gives up
his Avengers buckle and puts on a thunderbolt buckle.

Speaker 1 (10:48):
Oh, it takes a little h off of his helmet.

Speaker 2 (10:50):
It's a good time.

Speaker 1 (10:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:51):
Yeah, but yeah, I don't know, it's it's the goofy name.
I don't know. I don't know going with that.

Speaker 1 (11:00):
That's a good name, it's a cool name, but yeah,
I mean, look again, Batman is the dumbest name of
all time.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
They're all dumb Superman, Superman, Like, come on, Spider dash Man, Yeah,
why is he the only one with the dash in
the name? Doesn't make any sense? Daredevil Man, daredevil Man,
where's daredevil Man? Devil Man, devil Man, dear Man, d Man.
He dares the most?

Speaker 1 (11:18):
Wow?

Speaker 2 (11:20):
Yeah, all right, So.

Speaker 1 (11:23):
I want to ask you this specific question. I would
like you to put your writer's hat on right now. Sure,
you've written comic books, you've written in television, you've written movies,
you write stuff, you know stuff, I've written stuff. Yeah.
In the Marvel universe in the nineteen nineties, when Thunderbolts
came out, why why, why then? Why did we need
a team of villains? I have a really hard time

(11:44):
with a team of villains, but I do think the
Thunderbolts is one of the better examples of that.

Speaker 2 (11:48):
See. But here's the thing. They're not a team of villains.

Speaker 1 (11:52):
That's the marketing on it, right, That's like the edge
that we're selling all of it. It's the thing the
brand of Thunderbolts.

Speaker 2 (11:58):
It's it's a team of villain learning to be heroes. Yeah, right,
that's what it is. But when you read that first
twelve issue run, which is where they're under Baron Zemo
and Barren Zemo's like, we are going to trick the
well my vantage then eame was all over. But they
don't do any villainry in those first twelve issues. They
do all good guys style, goodory. Yes, and again, like

(12:22):
there's a scene that I remember where I think Atlas
the big strong guy, where they save some people and
then the people applaud them and he's very much like, oh,
I'm used to people throwing rocks at me. Yeah, and
he doesn't know how to handle it. So it's just
I don't know why. Then, well, the thing is is
because of what I talked about, but because there was
a hole in the market, and this is where this

(12:45):
is something that I think is lost in modern franchise
storytelling is taking advantage of the time and your story.
And what I mean by that is because they had
this hole where Ribe Life Jim Lee are just messing
with the fantas thing for an Avenger.

Speaker 1 (13:02):
Everyone's going into a pocket universe for a while, so
they're kind of being shelve. Your A listers are sort
of like having an.

Speaker 2 (13:07):
App, so the main universe can kind of be a
little weird because like, well, we got to fill the hole, right,
So yeah, why not a weird Thunderbolts team but they're
actually villains? Or like, why not a Tarzan in New York? Okay? Cool?
Why not a new Heroes for Hire? And I guess
you could make that argument with where the MCU is
right now, because it's very weird, even though we're in
a very post in game world, even though in game

(13:28):
again was like six years ago, and it's very much
this thing where they're like, oh, the Avengers don't exist,
which I think is weird.

Speaker 1 (13:35):
I think, and we don't really know what that world
looks like because the movies and the branding and the
messaging has all been we just incosistent.

Speaker 2 (13:43):
We just know the Avengers aren't around, which I think
is weird because I think in a post in game world,
you would be that would be the thing that would
cement and make you think that the Avengers should never
go away, because look at how bad it was when
the Avengers weren't around when Thanos first showed up. So
you think this would like create Tony Stark would like
put a bunch of money down and ensure that the
Avengers would always.

Speaker 1 (14:01):
Work there would always be Avengers.

Speaker 2 (14:03):
Yeah, but we're sort of in a pocket where there
aren't Avengers, right, and so now we're making this Thunderbolts team. Yeah. So,
like I I understand that impulse. I do understand it.

Speaker 1 (14:14):
But it's interesting you talking the idea of filling the market,
particularly on sort of the comic book side of this equation,
because you describe you that way reminds me of the
way that you describe why you like the DC series
fifty two. Yeah, because all the big dogs were sort
of off doing other things, and we had to tell
this this story in this format during this time, and
so we got a lot of like tertiary and like

(14:37):
benched characters who have to step up and have like
an interesting storyline for the first time in how many years?

Speaker 2 (14:41):
Those are always the greatest stories, like because because again
the thing that makes like stories in all mediums so
compelling is if you set up a situation that creates
interesting stories or interesting drama. Again, it's like thinking about
you know, the easy one to go back to, you know,

(15:02):
I work on a Chlock Holme show. The easy one
to think about a Charlocke Holmes. You know Charlock was
was he wasn't being published for eight years, right in Cannon.
I know in the storyline it's like three years, but
like so there's lots of interesting stories in there to
be like, Okay, well, what is he like that he's
kind of not been checking out, he's not been solving
crimes for three years?

Speaker 1 (15:22):
Yeah, what is it like that.

Speaker 2 (15:23):
Watson has basically thought this guy was dead? Like take
advantage of that stuff? And it's these interesting things where like, Okay,
if you know with the MCU, you're just like, Okay,
if we exist in a world where the Avengers are
not around, then we should take advantage that the Avengers
are not around, Like, okay, So what would the world
be like in a world where there are no Avengers?

(15:43):
And to me, I think that there should be more Honestly,
I think there should be more street level crime. I
kind of think like the mob or the Kingpin or whoever,
or you know, the hand Ninjas are coming out of nowhere,
like like they would be taking advantage of a world
where there is well, there's a Captain America, but he's
not Steve Rodgers, right, so people kind of think maybe
he's a pushover.

Speaker 1 (16:04):
That's interesting. I also wonder if another reason why people associate,
like especially if you never read Thunderbolts, like the one
to one is out this a team of villains is
because in two thousand and nine they were rebranded Dark Avengers. Yeah,
but when the new creative team took over. So I
wonder if just that titling and if you've ever seen.

Speaker 2 (16:21):
Those covers there are ar Avengers is a good title.

Speaker 1 (16:23):
They're all the dark silhouettes and like bright colors behind it.

Speaker 2 (16:26):
They took they took the same characters that were were
that version of Thunderbolts led by Norman Osborne, and they
just made they were like, oh, they're the Dark Avengers.

Speaker 1 (16:33):
Yeah, exactly that. And then obviously, like we got subsequent
read it's like the Marvel now has Deadpool, electra Venom Punisher, sure,
and someone else on the I can see the first
cover so clearly in my brain because it was all
ray scale with red. It was a really beautiful cover.
I think there's other people on the team, but those
are a lot of like if you don't want to

(16:55):
call them villains anti heroes, right, like they sort of
lead with their violence.

Speaker 2 (16:59):
Can I ask you a quest? Yeah, because this is
something that happened like right before Avengers in games. In
the comic books, they started doing this thing where they
started adding Bucky to every every.

Speaker 1 (17:10):
Thunder because because the movie had come out and everyone
was like, I'm in love with sub Passion.

Speaker 2 (17:17):
Stand now, I actually think Bucky being the leader of
the Thunderbolts is not a bad call.

Speaker 1 (17:22):
I actually do like that. Look the new team that
started in twenty twenty three, I have a list of
it here.

Speaker 2 (17:27):
Yeah, who are they?

Speaker 1 (17:28):
It's led by Bucky and the Contessa.

Speaker 2 (17:31):
Okay, they did it because.

Speaker 1 (17:33):
Of the movie obviously. And then the team is Black
Widow Sharon Carter, White Widow, Red Guardian, and US agents.
It's basically the movie team they.

Speaker 2 (17:41):
Did do the movie team. Yeah, that's lame.

Speaker 1 (17:43):
They did the same thing when they relaunched The Gardians
a Galaxy book. That's lame where they set it up
two years early in publication because that's when they were,
you know, finishing and shooting the movie, so that two
years later they're gonna have two or three trades out
on the shelf.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
Look, I'm just gonna throw out there, I'm very, very
skeptical of this movie.

Speaker 1 (18:01):
I think I think that's totally.

Speaker 2 (18:03):
Beyond the asterisk and everything, just because it does feel
like a suicide squad retread.

Speaker 1 (18:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:10):
Yeah. And also it is one of these things where
I I think there actually are better characters in their
MCU universe then the characters they chose for this movie.

Speaker 1 (18:24):
Okay, I actually have a question. I want to ask
you about the MCU movie and about placing it in
this phase that we're in right now. But first we're
going to recharge. We're going to decide for anti heroes
or not, and then we'll come back and have that
conclusion geek history lesson. We are here. We are maybe
bad guys. We haven't decided. We're talking about the thunderbut.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
I'm definitely not a bad guy.

Speaker 1 (18:47):
You maybe, yeah, I maybe we'll see what the Apple
podcasts after this episode. Hey, hey, chat, If you think
Jason is the villain, go to Apple podcasts and calm
meant the man emoji who's got his arms in an
ex in front of his face. And if you think
that I'm the villain, go to Apple podcasts and comment

(19:12):
the broken heart emoji. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (19:15):
I hope somebody does that.

Speaker 1 (19:16):
Yeah, if you, if you do it, maybe we'll send
you something fun. Okay, Jason, before we take the break,
we started to dip our toes into like MCU and
for you know, fore O questions of adaptation, and that's.

Speaker 2 (19:28):
The ways when we're talking about the Thunderbolts one hundred
asterix Dark Avengers Thunderbolts Asterix.

Speaker 1 (19:35):
I really liked Florence puce hair in this asterix.

Speaker 2 (19:39):
They will be the heroes just and tell the fantasy Foreshaw.

Speaker 1 (19:41):
Oh you know, Jason, you know what nobody has noticed
is that the asterix actually means that the MCU little
known Superhero Asterix will be appearing halfway through the movie
in a cutscene.

Speaker 2 (19:50):
Can I actually tell you I saw this recently and
somebody would get made like a meme of it, and
apparently like it might have been last year at Santio
Comic Kevin I like went to Santio Comic Con with
the asterisks. The asterisk was the logo on his hat.

Speaker 1 (20:05):
Oh that's fun.

Speaker 2 (20:06):
And I saw people share it and they were like,
is he promoting the Walmart movie? And then they showed
the Walmart logo the little as it looks exactly the same.
So everybody was like Kevin Fikey promoting Walmart. The movie.

Speaker 1 (20:21):
He's like, thank you so much Walmart for this sponsorship.
I'm gonna bring with you with me to Walmart to
do a Walmart hall as if Ken Fuggie has ever
sad put in a Walmart in the last twenty years.

Speaker 2 (20:30):
To be honest with you, at this point, I wouldn't
surprise me if Disney made that deal and made Walmart
the movie.

Speaker 1 (20:35):
Sorry, Sebastian sat all right so much.

Speaker 2 (20:37):
Let's talk about the phase like you're talking about like
which I don't even remember what phase were even in.

Speaker 1 (20:41):
I believe we're in phase four. I don't know the
fact that it didn't with the Fantastic four again, Disney,
I have notes on your brand, hey, in your marketing.

Speaker 2 (20:50):
Zady's coming soon, Pedro pascal zad and and.

Speaker 1 (20:54):
Why are you Russia? I don't know, Scott, I'm.

Speaker 2 (20:56):
Trying to do a little bit. Latino is, Pedro pascal
Za is coming to it. And because Mommy Vanessa Kurby is.

Speaker 1 (21:08):
No mommy, Vanessa is gonna be mommy and then the
chef himself.

Speaker 2 (21:13):
But you've been Mosses coming whatever.

Speaker 1 (21:15):
I'm excited.

Speaker 2 (21:15):
Don't know why. I want to tell you I apologize
for those bad acts.

Speaker 1 (21:18):
I apologize to everyone for everything.

Speaker 2 (21:19):
Yeah, cast looks great, and I'm very excited for that
fantasic for movie.

Speaker 1 (21:23):
I'll tell you this, I am very neutral on that
fantastic for a movie. But boy does Herbie look cute.
Herbie is so freaking cute. Little eyes a Doe Batch
love it. Ten out of ten Thunderbolts Jason.

Speaker 2 (21:34):
Phases of the Marvel Moon, the Marvel Moon.

Speaker 1 (21:39):
Is this the right face for Thunderbolts? Because I'm gonna
tell you I don't think it is.

Speaker 2 (21:42):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (21:43):
I mean you're You're Kevin Fige, and you can look
back at your long career and fix some of these mistakes.
And one of these mistakes that you're gonna fix is
putting the Thunderbolts too late. Where are you moving it to? Well?

Speaker 2 (21:53):
I don't know, because we've had this conversation before. Where
like you and I, we both were like Black Widow
should have happened in phase one. Bro. Yes, again, I
don't here. I'm gonna be blunt as possible. I give
no fs about the phases. I do not care. I
don't track them. I don't care. They're meaningless, so especially

(22:13):
after mess, but I so I will I can talk
about this in like sort of like let's say areas
about where I am.

Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yeah, like I want you to put a producer hat
on and sort of, you know, I don't.

Speaker 2 (22:26):
I actually don't think this is too late for the Thunderbolts. Weirdly,
I kind of think the Thunderbolts need to be down
the line a little bit more. Really, Yeah, because here's
my thing. When you think about the Marvel universe, Yeah,
they sort of progress in real time yet not. Yeah,
so the Avengers have only been around for like eight

(22:48):
years maybe, yeah, and then this big Thanos thing happened
where people disappeared for five years. Right, So like, I guess,
I guess if I'm doing the Thunderbolts, I think maybe
the X Men gotta be here, Like there needs to
be more superheroes, I think, And we know it doesn't
feel and I don't know, it doesn't feel like I

(23:09):
don't know, or maybe this is the right time because
there is no Avengers. I don't know, because they quite
don't know how they execute that movie. But but I'm
more I guess I'm more miffed about why they didn't
do the comic book storyline because they have won a
perfectly cast Baron Zimo. Daniel Brule is right.

Speaker 1 (23:29):
There, Yeah, literally right there. I know, and they don't
make aduce to him. I know his journey was more
about get rid of all superheroes. I understand that. I
think with a good enough script you could change that.
I agree because he's a great actor.

Speaker 2 (23:42):
I think the reveal, I think, if you the actual
Asterisk or secret or whatever was that, Oh, we're going
to introduce a new team. To me, it's just like
Winter Soldier. Because the comic fans they showed the Winter
Soldier and the trailers, we all know. We all knew
that was Bucky. Yeah, we were like to lean out

(24:02):
a guest, but I think the normies didn't know you.

Speaker 1 (24:05):
And I literally heard a woman gasp the second weekend.

Speaker 2 (24:08):
And we're surprised. I think you could do the exact
same thing with a Thunderbolts movie. I think, especially if
the reveal happens at the one hour market, you have
a two hour movie. Happens right in the middle of
the movie, so we spend the first hour very similar
to like what Ryan Coogler's Centers did. Yes, yeah, for
slight spoilers there, I mean very minor, but there's a

(24:29):
tone about almost exactly at the midpoint in the movie,
the movie changes heart, and I think you could do
the same thing. The first hour is very heroic. Here
we are blah blah blah blah blah. Like you say,
like you tell people that Daniel Brule is in the movie,
but you do not tell them what who he is?
Did you not? Or you just say Zemo's in the movie,

(24:50):
but you don't show them in any of the trailers, right,
and then you cast a names as the other people,
and then again then it becomes this big thing where
like if you pull it off, all your doing is
you're creating all this word of mouth for your second
weekend where everybody's gonna be like you got to see
the thunderbolts Man, and everybody's gonna be like, wait a minute,
what that goofy that citizen v at no, no, no, no,

(25:13):
trust me. Yeah, it's got a fight club level turn.
You're gonna want to see it, you know, and you know,
and then like the whole second half is like they
turn into villains, And then I would even be like, yeah,
the then you have like Sam Wilson, Florence Pugh, whoever's around,
as like many Avengers be like, ah, I know who
you are, Baron's Emo, We're gonna take you down. I

(25:34):
just think it would be a cool movie. It also
would be a superhero movie that we haven't seen yet. Yeah,
and the problem I see again might be completely different.
I haven't seen the movie, but from the trailers Thunderbolts
as the MCU is doing Thunderbolts, Asterix whatever, supporting Walmart plus,
it seems like it's just Suicide Squad three.

Speaker 1 (25:57):
Yeah. So what I was gonna I was gonna go
all the way back and I was gonna say, it's
interesting because you were saying if they adapted this first
arc that it would be a stronger film, And that's
the same argument that we've always had about Suicide Squad.
Is like, if you just adapted to Josh Right, oh
my god, you would have like everything that you're hoping
that this movie would do. Like, I don't think there's
a universe where Marvel Disney is smart enough to put

(26:18):
this out before Suicide Squad. No, unfortunately, But if I
was in charge, I would have dropped this in the
Guardians of the Galaxy slot.

Speaker 2 (26:26):
Okay, So like post twenty sixteen. Yeah, so this is
after Age of ultrom but before Civil War.

Speaker 1 (26:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:32):
Interesting.

Speaker 1 (26:33):
And that's also mostly because I don't like Marvel in Spade.

Speaker 2 (26:38):
Yeah, so, but I think too early.

Speaker 1 (26:41):
I think you could have. I think the other reason
why I'm inclined to somewhere around there is because you
have Bucky, but he's not an Avenger yet, so you
could sort of give him his own little.

Speaker 2 (26:52):
Can I can I admit my answer? Of course, I
think Thunderbolt should have been the first Marvel movie post.

Speaker 1 (26:58):
End Game, because you know, when James Gunn had a
meeting with Marvel, and this is on the record, it
was initially to talk about Thunderbolts.

Speaker 2 (27:04):
Oh I didn't know that.

Speaker 1 (27:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, well that was something that they were
floating around at the time.

Speaker 2 (27:09):
I can tell you. I can tell you right now,
just because I know how Disney thinks. I guarantee you
there was never a conversation ever about this being the
villains pretending to be heroes. I guarantee you. This was
always like, we're going to do our suicide squad.

Speaker 1 (27:26):
Yeah, because then he went to DC and did what
suicide squad?

Speaker 2 (27:29):
Yeah, so I think.

Speaker 1 (27:30):
He took the ideas that he originally had this.

Speaker 2 (27:34):
Because it's only ever Thunderbolts run that has ever been
as good as the original is the one we were
just talking about, the one it became Dark Avengers, and
that was just that Norman Osborne runs the suicide Squad basically, yeah,
because that's where everybody defaults too. And again it's one
of those things where like sometimes you should just let
things be from the time they are. Yeah, Like, we

(27:54):
don't need to keep making Thunderbolts comics. Yeah, we can
just be like, you know what, that run from Kurt
Music and Mark Bailey is really good. It's in print.
It's right over here if you want to read it,
read it.

Speaker 1 (28:04):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (28:05):
You know, we don't keep making like, we don't keep
remaking ET like we have. We're not at ET number
eleven right now, you know, Like people were like, oh,
if you've seen this movie ET, go watch it. Yeah. Yeah,
that's the that's the attitude it should be. But we
keep being like, no, I gotta have more ET. Are
you sure? Yeah, I'm sure.

Speaker 1 (28:24):
Some of a bunch of sequels.

Speaker 2 (28:25):
There was almost a sequel to ET, and it was
going to start this plant creature alien named Botanicus. That's
a long true as Google. Yah, they almost made a sequel.
They almost made a sequel, and they were going to
go to like this plant planet and there was gonna
meet like an et made of leaves, and he was
called Botanicus. I am not lying. Google Botanicus. You will
find it. I'm not lying.

Speaker 1 (28:46):
I will be googling that.

Speaker 2 (28:48):
It's awful. I'm so I have never been more happy
for a crew not to work than Et too. That wow,
almost happened. They came. We came very close to living
in the world where that movie happened.

Speaker 1 (29:04):
I don't know if I'll ever recover from this. Is
so funny to me, Botanica. Okay, well, let's I got
another question for you about the movie. Sure, why on
earth do you think Marvel has been possessed to not
go the route of hiding the hero's identities, Like.

Speaker 2 (29:21):
Oh, you mean, like trying to do the original storyline?

Speaker 1 (29:24):
Yeah, I don't. I like they've they're literally admitting that
they're like, well, here's a group of losers. Yeah, let's
and obviously you're trying to give them quite a redemntion
arc right, like for them, if it is, if it
is a Vengers, if that's what the asterisk is to
get them from where we see them in the trailer
to someone worthy of bearing the title of event, basically

(29:45):
being a Knight of the Realm, you theoretically ideally have
to have a really tremendous arc and a really really
impactful story to get there.

Speaker 2 (29:55):
But I, yeah, you know, can I this This is
not gonna aswer a question. This is kind of a
different tone, but I want to say something is that
we saw Captain America Brave New World right, And I
think a lot of people would make the argument that
a big clunky part of that movie was that it
was secretly a stealth sequel to the Incredible Hulk the

(30:15):
Edward Norton. Yeah, Thunderbolts to me from the trailers seems
like a stealth sequel to Black Widow, a movie that
I don't know if any Marvel fan wants a sequel
to that movie. Mm, And it really feels like I
also think again, like I don't think there are many
characters in that movie that viewers are really gonna want

(30:36):
to see again besides Florence Pew. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:40):
I think I think her, I think Elena, I think
Bucky he's still still one of those popular part who's.

Speaker 2 (30:47):
Really pulling for task Master? Also another character from Black
Widow or Ghosts. Three characters on that team are from
Black Widow.

Speaker 1 (30:54):
Yeah, and I do think David Harbor is gonna for
a lot of people sure is going to be a draw.
I don't think Red Guardian is the draw. I think
David Harber.

Speaker 2 (31:04):
I think there are other characters they could have pulled
with this team. I can't what was your question? Originally?
I don't remember why they haven't done the Gill, you.

Speaker 1 (31:10):
Know, or maybe since we sort of already have talked
about that, maybe we talked about like why why no
Hawk guy?

Speaker 2 (31:16):
I don't know. I think Jimmy. I think Jerrem Renner
is done.

Speaker 1 (31:19):
I think either he had or his contract.

Speaker 2 (31:22):
Is he'll come back for like Avengers Doomsday, this big thing.
And I think he's done.

Speaker 1 (31:26):
Because I've been wondering because we it seems like we
are also while in tandem building whatever this team is,
Thunderbolt's New Avengers, Dark Avengers, whatever we're gonna call him.

Speaker 2 (31:36):
I bet it's New Avengers.

Speaker 1 (31:38):
We've been stealth building a young Avengers team as well.

Speaker 2 (31:41):
We haven't when they haven't activated those guys.

Speaker 1 (31:43):
And Hailey Steinfeld is also a hawkey. So I've been
wondering if at some point, because she's a bit older,
like she's closer to Florence Pew's age than she is
to like the guy Charlie Day.

Speaker 2 (31:56):
And it's simply because like they've waited like.

Speaker 1 (31:59):
So long to a activating.

Speaker 2 (32:00):
Yeah, exactivates.

Speaker 1 (32:01):
So I wonder if over the course of the movie
or if we're going to get a scene where she
also she's there hawkeyeh, if it's gonna be Kate.

Speaker 2 (32:09):
She's not really a bad guy though.

Speaker 1 (32:11):
No, but I mean they're they're not bad guys. Like
Bucky's not a bad guy.

Speaker 2 (32:16):
Yeah he thought that. No, I understand. But Bucky being
part of the team is kind of cool because again,
Bucky being on the Avengers is always weird. Yeah, but
him being the that's why I kind of think he
works on the Thunderbolts because it's like this idea of like, yeah, darkness,
Yeah you don't really feel it with the Avengers, but yeah,
I don't know, honestly, you know, to go back to
your question about like why they haven't done the villains,
I'm asking the conspiracy storyline is I honestly think they

(32:40):
don't know how to market it interesting. I think they
are too worried or I think that they had a
conversation with the marketing department and they have told they
have The marketing department is basically like, we don't know
how to sell this. Yeah, because we'd have to keep
so much of the movie secret. We couldn't sell the

(33:03):
big moment, and the big moment of the movie is Oh,
it's Barren z Emo and they couldn't. It's like, think
about like six cents sixth sense. The sixth Sense trailer
would give away that it was ghost right out the gate. Yeah,
you know, it's very similar to I have heard this
might be a fake story. I don't know. I have
heard that about the Mission Impossile franchise. We got a

(33:24):
Mission I Possible movie. It's literally going to compete with
a Thunderbolt movie here in like three weeks.

Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yeah, God blessed.

Speaker 2 (33:29):
I'm very excited for that. I'm all in the Mission
Possible franchise. Spies jumping from planes, I'm in. James Bond
did it, Ethan Hunt keeps doing it. He's gonna die
on screen. It's gonna be great.

Speaker 1 (33:39):
So all you're saying is if we throw Red Guardian
out of enough planes, you'll be into the Thunderbolts movies
no matter.

Speaker 2 (33:44):
What spy though, Well, throw Florence, throw Florence Pew out
of a plane, and I would happily follow her after
that plane. Anyways, that's another that's a very beautiful woman. Anyways,
the there's a there is a story that like the
reason part of the reason why christophermcor because Mission Impossible
used to be this director based franchise where they would
always switch directors. Part of the reason why besides box

(34:07):
office yeah, that they keep inviting Christoper McCrory back to
do now will have done four of these.

Speaker 1 (34:13):
He's the guy is.

Speaker 2 (34:15):
Because I've heard this might not be true, but I
have heard that he goes to Paramount Marketing before they
even start filming or writing or doing anything on that movie,
and he goes tell me the five shots you need
in that trailer to sell this movie, and then he
makes sure that those five shots are in his movie.

Speaker 1 (34:37):
Do you think one of them is Yellina below a
stepping off a building. You know, it is a beautiful shot.
You know.

Speaker 2 (34:43):
Here's the thing. I actually really like that they did
that for real? Yeah, and that they shot it. The
problem is that the exact same thing that Mission I
Apostile Brote Nation did is that it's apparently the opening
scene of the movie. So now the coolest thing in
your movie is like the opening shot, and I've already
seen it and I saw the behind the scenes, so like,
why do I care? Yeah, that was a misstep with

(35:06):
the Mission Impossible Dead Reckoning was that they showed us
the him jumping off the cliff top. Yeah, for a
million times before we saw that movie, So when you
finally saw in the movie, you were just like, well,
I've already seen it.

Speaker 1 (35:19):
I also something that I find interesting about the Thunderbolts
movie that we've seen marketed so far, because it really
seems like it's a fetch quest. It's Bucky going and
making the team, right. Yeah, then like their first couple
of missions.

Speaker 2 (35:32):
I actually think the team exists and then Bucky finds them, which.

Speaker 1 (35:36):
Is something that you could argue we saw play out
over like the earliest phases of the MCU, where it
was Nick Ferry collecting the Avengers. Yeah, you know, so
it's like, are you trying to do all the character
work of one phase in a single movie, and I
think that could be interesting. It's whether or not we
meet the team in media rez or if this is
an origin.

Speaker 2 (35:55):
So here's the other thing. I and this is something
that the MCU does, and it's some of the MSU
does for its strength, yeah, but also it does it
for its weaknesses.

Speaker 1 (36:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:05):
V MCU likes to take storylines from the comic books. Yeah,
kind of put them in. You know that little shaker
you have from a boggle board game, Shake it up
a little bit, and then however it dumps out is
however it dumps out? Yeah, And then sometimes that creates
really interesting storylines, like the way Civil War go went

(36:26):
down was very different but kind of interesting. So you
kind of felt like you were like, oh, okay, this
is or extremis or various things like that. From the trailers,
we can tell there's a slide spoiler here. It's been
in every trailer for the Thunderbolts. The Century is there,
Oh yeah, and you can tell it's the Century now.

(36:47):
The Century is againsa's character created by Paul Jenkins, who
is basically Superman in the Marvel universe. And when they
created it, they did this whole storyline thing where the
original storyline of it was is that it was a
forgotten stan Lee's superhero that had just been forgotten. And
then you found out that the storyline of the mini
series was is that, oh, the Century had been in

(37:09):
the Marvel universe since the sixties. Like he is a
silver age character, but he became so powerful that he
had to, like with Read Richard's help, create this thing
to make the world forget that he existed and go
into hiding. Now, I think that storyline would be awesome
Disney Plus TV series in a very adult that is

(37:34):
I think such a and I think it's a little
weird that he's just gonna be the villain of the
Thunderbolts movie. Yeah, but it's a thing where like that's
something the MSU you can tell that, like you know,
Kevin Vike and the execs or whatever, you could tell
they were looking at the Century and they're like, well,
we want to do the Century, but we're worried that
he won't work. So if we just make him the

(37:55):
villain of this movie, we can appease the comic book
fans and then throw them away.

Speaker 1 (37:59):
Because and I know we we haven't covered the Century
in any sort of great depth. But if you look
at any of the stuff that's written about him, even
though everyone's calling him the Sentry, the specific language is
that he is the void version of the Century, and
it is like a sort of darker persona that the

(38:20):
Century has been from time to time in the comics.

Speaker 2 (38:22):
Yes, and to explain, I was trying to like hide
those spoilers, but we're goal one got spoiler.

Speaker 1 (38:26):
It's in the press releases.

Speaker 2 (38:27):
Oh no, No, I was trying to hide the spoiler of
anybody reading the comic books. So, like the thing, the
reason why he gets so powerful is that he basically
creates a darker side of himself called the Void. Yeah,
he's he's basically a schizophrenic. Yeah, and yes, you can
tell on the trailers that they're hiding the Century and
they're just showing the voice. Yes, exactly, but you because look, look,
I've hear the saw.

Speaker 1 (38:48):
Here's the bet. Does he become a full fledged team
member by the end of the movie.

Speaker 2 (38:52):
No, I think he's dead. Really, I think he's dead.

Speaker 1 (38:54):
That's kind of dark from mark.

Speaker 2 (38:56):
I think he's dead. I think the end of the
movie is Yolena puts a bullet in the brain. Interesting
because think about it, he is Superman. Yeah, he is
crazy Superman, and I think they get him the hell
out of that universe real quick they do.

Speaker 1 (39:11):
Also, that's yeah, that's true because who's he gonna fight?
Richard Madden from the Atnal.

Speaker 2 (39:14):
Again, he's also one of those. He's one of these
pieces where like kind of kind of like Captain Marvel
that he's so.

Speaker 1 (39:20):
Powerful you kind of have to handicapped because.

Speaker 2 (39:23):
Look at the Thunderbolts. This Thunderbolts team has no Superman.

Speaker 1 (39:25):
There's even a joke about it in the in the
trailer where she's like, we don't have any super Bowl.

Speaker 2 (39:30):
The only one is Ghost and ghost superpowers are a machine.
It's because she wears a suit. Yeah, that's why she
has superpowers. But yeah, so like I think I think
they killed the Sentry. I really do think they killed
the Sentry.

Speaker 1 (39:44):
Or or he's Barren's emo.

Speaker 2 (39:48):
Oh man, I will throw a wild theory. And again, everybody,
you've seen this movie. By the time you're listening this episode,
you're wrong, You're gonna do it. I can't wait for you. Gee,
she was shitched, idiot, whatever, save it for yourself. I
don't care. There's a storyline in Marl Comb books called
Secret Invasion. Yes, the Avengers are fighting the Scrolls. The

(40:08):
storyline ends because Norman Osborne walks out of nowhere and
just goes bang and shoots the head scroll that everybody
thinks he's a hero. My thought for this movie is
that Thunderbolts are fighting Oh my god, the voids.

Speaker 1 (40:20):
Oh yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:22):
Suddenly we get him into a point where get him
to a place where he's vulnerable. Maybe Elena goes up
and goes, Bob, who's the centers of that, be a
real man, be yourself, and he, like deep powers, becomes
a human Bob and he goes, thank you, Lena, thank
you for letting me remember widows him Nope, and then
you hear bang, he drops headshot, turn the camera as

(40:44):
Julie lu Dreyfus a shot. Oh yeah, they want to
do this, and now she's the new Nick Fury, the
hero man.

Speaker 1 (40:52):
Interesting.

Speaker 2 (40:52):
That's my thought.

Speaker 1 (40:53):
That's pretty good thing.

Speaker 2 (40:54):
That's my thought. Okay, that's how I would write it.

Speaker 1 (40:56):
I want to ask you, as our resident Thunderbolts super fan.

Speaker 2 (41:02):
Sure, I don't know if i'd call myself a super fans.

Speaker 1 (41:04):
Between the two of us the resident person who's read
a Thunderbolts comic.

Speaker 2 (41:08):
Here I read, I read all the original forty issues.

Speaker 1 (41:12):
I want to ask you, what are some things that
you need to see or you really want to see
on screen to be satisfied with a Thunderbolt story. But
I'm gonna give you some time to think about it,
because it's that time again. We got we gotta take
some time.

Speaker 2 (41:26):
What time is it?

Speaker 1 (41:27):
Break time?

Speaker 2 (41:27):
Break time, break time, break, Give me a break, give
me a break.

Speaker 1 (41:31):
Break. They didn't pay a spond to this podcast. Yeah,
screw them. We are back on.

Speaker 2 (41:38):
Break is over. Break is over. Don't take a break
of that data and sponsor this podcast.

Speaker 1 (41:45):
We gave Jason some thinking time, he put his Century
cap on and as emerged as the Void. And so
I want to know.

Speaker 2 (41:51):
I hope, by the way, again, that's that MANI series
is really good. I'm certain they're going to republish it
before that, after the movie or whatever. But like I am,
now that you know this, go read it good, find
it online. That is the twist again and the only
reason I gave away the Century is again. I saw
the funk pop funk go on Barnes and Noble literally
last week.

Speaker 1 (42:07):
We also knew the Century was gonna be in this
because he's been recast forty five times.

Speaker 2 (42:10):
Yeah, it was a regionally Stephen.

Speaker 1 (42:12):
Yun Yeah, and then he would have been such a good.

Speaker 2 (42:14):
I don't know who they recast.

Speaker 1 (42:15):
Lewis Pullman. I looked him up. I don't know him
from anything. I'm sure he's a lovely young man.

Speaker 2 (42:18):
Oh okay, well, good for him. It's gonna be probably
a big, very big movie for him.

Speaker 1 (42:21):
Yeah. So yeah, but I mean, Steven, it would have
been so good. I think that was a scheduling strike
thing I heard set face. Anyway, what are some things
that you would like to see adapted to the screen
in this Thunderbolts movie. What would make you go, oh
my god if you saw it in the theaters.

Speaker 2 (42:44):
I don't know if I can specifically talk about this Thunderbolts.

Speaker 1 (42:47):
Movie because it's not the same thing that well, because
in the comics.

Speaker 2 (42:51):
It's not the Thunderbolt It really isn't. It's a brand
new team. Yah it it really to me, it's not
a Thunderbolts movie.

Speaker 1 (43:00):
They're doing the classic mcu thing here where they're calling it. Yeah,
a brand you may know from the nineteen seventies and
they're just filling it with whatever they want.

Speaker 2 (43:08):
It is. It is very much a Dark Avengers movie, yeah,
which is why I think that's what they're going to actually,
yeah review or a new Avengers movie.

Speaker 1 (43:15):
That Avengers is a cooler name.

Speaker 2 (43:16):
Dark Avengers is a coch.

Speaker 1 (43:17):
That'll probably come the new event.

Speaker 2 (43:18):
So that's that's what. So I can answer this question
in let's say they made what what I need to
see from a movie called Thunderbolts to really be excited.
Not that let's frame it though, because I think everything
I'm going to tell you is not gonna.

Speaker 1 (43:32):
Get yeah, which doesn't mean you won't enjoy it.

Speaker 2 (43:35):
Yeah. First off, I need to see I need to
see a little bit of the Silver Age goofiness, because
that is something that Kirk Music really layered into that
original run. He really layered into like my name is Atlas,
I'm citizen V. Yes, we're here, tripertuk to like a

(43:55):
little bit of that, and I want to see that,
like there was a little bit of the The funny
one of the sub storylines of that run that was
so good was that Baron Zemo kind of took pleasure
in being a better Avengers team than the Avengers.

Speaker 1 (44:13):
That's a very that's very like Auto Octavius like, well,
I'll be the.

Speaker 2 (44:17):
Better Spider Man. It is that exact same thing. So
he like was actually a much better team leader than
Captain America.

Speaker 1 (44:24):
What's so funny because I feel like when we saw
Baron Zimo with Sam and Bucky, we kind of got
those vibes.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
Of the Little Bit. Yeah, so like I want to
see like like they are like, yes, we are so
much better, Like they took the cats out of the
trees and they did.

Speaker 1 (44:40):
And that's funny because that's also like a meta commentary
on what is it to be a superhero?

Speaker 2 (44:44):
Yeah, so they like were like really good superhero. Yeah,
and again that movie is basically like, well we're not
good okay. Yeah. Anyways, I also, I know you can't
adapt this costume exactly, but the costume that Baron Zimo
ware is his characters called Citizen v its must be
for victory. Yeah, and he has like an American flag cape.

(45:06):
Jason has the actually I have an actually you're going
a swashbuggling sword, and it is such a good design
that I would want at least the cape do at
least the cap it would be such a just like,
oh my god, I can't believe they pulled that off.
It's kind of like what they do with Homelander and
the Boys in Amazon. I never thought in a million

(45:27):
years they would be able to do that costume.

Speaker 1 (45:29):
And that's basically the costume.

Speaker 2 (45:30):
It's basically the costume and he's wearing the American and
he's got a giant ego on his shoulder. But it
really works.

Speaker 1 (45:36):
But it doesn't work because of the designers that work, because
Anthony Starr is just like no, I'll give it.

Speaker 2 (45:42):
I give it the designers. That's a good looking costume.
I actually think at this point there are no superhero
costumes that can't be adapted, because I really think that like,
even if you make it look completely different, it's like
as long as it has like the key elements the
motif of the original, like as long as it ambuse

(46:03):
the same feeling doesn't matter. Yeah, So I want to
see the Citizen V. I love some sort of Citizen V.
That's that would be the thing to be like, oh
my god, yeah, you know. And I just think really
leaning into these villains, just being like wow, it is
so much cooler to be a hero than it is

(46:24):
to be a villain. Because again, the I think the
issue I have and the reason why I don't say
this new Thunderbolts movie to me is the Thunderbolds movie
is because these are all they're all kind of mercenaries.
Like John Walker, us agent was a hero. Yes he
did bad things, but he was not a bad guy. Yeah,
Yolena was the same thing. Red Guardian was the same thing. Yes,

(46:46):
I know they looked for a black ops thing, but
they thought they were doing the right thing.

Speaker 1 (46:50):
They were not villains, Yeah, they weren't out there like
telling children.

Speaker 2 (46:57):
Task Master and Ghosts are the only two villains of
that team true villains. Yeah, But the problem is that
they were such minor characters of their movies that I
just don't care.

Speaker 1 (47:05):
I mean, I'm totally happy for those two actors and like,
good for them getting paid, good for them being in
another Marvel movie. But yeah, they're the two where I'm like, well,
I'll tell you who's dying in this movie. It's probably them,
probably probably one or both. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Cause you're.

Speaker 2 (47:20):
Not gonna cure Flora, You're not gonna kill Florence View
or David Harbor because.

Speaker 1 (47:23):
They still have six movies and their deals ahead of them.

Speaker 2 (47:25):
When we saw their names and that stupid director's chair
video that they did for Doomsday.

Speaker 1 (47:30):
Yes, I definitely watched that.

Speaker 2 (47:32):
I did not, but whatever. I hope you guys had
a good six hours watching chairs. Dear God. Yeah, I
thought it was really dope.

Speaker 1 (47:41):
But could have been an email, could have been fistfight,
could have been an email.

Speaker 2 (47:46):
But yeah, I just I think you I just don't
think we're gonna see any I mean, they're trying to
put that in the trailers. Yeah, they're also trying to
put this thing in there where like Bucky's trying to
experience the same thing. And again I haven't seen the movie,
but I'm also kind of like, I thought we already
did this work with Bucky, like twice.

Speaker 1 (48:04):
What they're doing with Bucky is because they decided to
not make him Captain America. Yeah, he is now suffering
a bit of Sam Wilson syndrome.

Speaker 2 (48:11):
Where what are we doing?

Speaker 1 (48:13):
We've spent three whole properties being like Sam Wilson is
Captain America and you're like, yes, my dude, I have
been on board. Sam Wilson is Captain America. Sligh and
now because Bucky is not Captain America. They're like, Bucky
is the troubled brother. Bucky has to get over being
the troubled brother. And we're like, Bucky has been over
being the troubled brother in four stories that.

Speaker 2 (48:35):
You and I also I love Bucky. You and I
also talked about because Sam Wilson has a badass Captain
America costume so good, and Bucky has a badass Captain
America coustume. We were always like, they should just do
two Captain America's and they don't even look remotely the same. Yeah,
and you just and you give Bucky the hologram shield.

Speaker 1 (48:51):
Yeah, oh that's cool, you know, like so like it's
because he already has like the.

Speaker 2 (48:56):
Or and then and then make make it the triangle shield.

Speaker 1 (48:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:59):
Yeah, Like let's just have two Captain Americas, you know, or.

Speaker 1 (49:03):
I'm sold cancel the Thunderbolt's movie make this yeah, or
like you know, or if you can't have two Captain America's,
then Bucky because Bucky's code name is US Agent, then
but he has his Captain America or just keep calling
them Falcon and Soldier. Yeah, but like they wear the
cap armor great, Yeah, in honor of Steve, like how
Tim changed his costume to honor O'Connor.

Speaker 2 (49:23):
Yeah, but it's this thing where like, yeah, I don't know, Like, yeah,
I don't know. Did I answer your question there? Yeah,
there's a lot of I don't knows of this movie
because the marketing for me and a lot of it
is that it does feel.

Speaker 1 (49:35):
Like it might be sneaky marketing where we're only seeing
the first chunk of ye thirty forty five minutes maybe.

Speaker 2 (49:41):
But I had the same thought about Brave New World
that they were doing the same thing, and they showed
the whole movie.

Speaker 1 (49:46):
They really showed the whole movie. They really did.

Speaker 2 (49:49):
Yeah, there were no surprises. Yeah, And so it's either
going to be that there are no surprises or there's
a big chunk of this movie that we have, like yeah,
that Sam Wilson shows up in the back half of
this movie and we've never seen it. I doubt that
because that's not really the way Marvel operates, but you know,
we'll see.

Speaker 1 (50:04):
Yeah. It's it's in a really interesting place in terms
of the year and when movies releases like that. It's
also in a really interesting place just in terms of
like Marvel is still struggling to find its post endgame identity.

Speaker 2 (50:14):
What do you think, like, like, let me ask you this. Yeah,
like you hear the title Thunderbolts. Yeah, what do you
need to see in a trailer to be excited? Because
it's obviously the trailers that they're giving us right now.
You're not that jazz to see this movie that comes
out this week.

Speaker 1 (50:32):
No, the Marvel logo not in front of it.

Speaker 2 (50:37):
Don't say that.

Speaker 1 (50:38):
I'll be silly.

Speaker 2 (50:39):
I think we can all admit, like, look, no matter
what you think about Marvel, Marvel's in a little bit
of a downswing right now. Everybody could admit they're just.

Speaker 1 (50:46):
In this growing phase that I think I think is
taking longer than all of us. Yep, maybe thought our
hope that's all Disney Plus took them off their game. Yeah,
I know we sound I know we sound snarky, but like, genuinely,
I don't think it's hard.

Speaker 2 (50:58):
Sometimes I don't think anybody would disa with this. They
have been kind of off since in games.

Speaker 1 (51:02):
Yeah, what I think I would like or what I
would like clear toy On is like, yeah, like, what
is sort of the functionality of this team? I think
the name thunderbolts. To me, even though a thunderbolt is
like a crack of lightning in the sky, it implies
specificity and power, So it's to me it implies like

(51:23):
black ops, like like they would do something that I
kind of want them to just be like the spies,
Like they're all spy characters, even Wyatt Russell's character like
is an agent, and it feels, yeah, I would like
them to, yeah, exactly the Black Widow thing, where like
I would love to see them stealth infiltrate some massive

(51:45):
thing and take it down.

Speaker 2 (51:46):
They're the strike team. Yeah, and most of their costumes
are black.

Speaker 1 (51:50):
I would want to see more of that than than
them like blowing up a building in New York or
like whatever. You know. Like, to me, what's not exciting
about it is? I'm like, oh, it's it looks like
a Marvel movie.

Speaker 2 (52:01):
It does, you know.

Speaker 1 (52:02):
Winter Soldier was exciting because it wasn't just a Marvel movie.
And that's good because honestly, there's enough people in this
movie that I already like I do, like, I like
Why Russell, I like.

Speaker 2 (52:13):
Florence Pugh, I like this feels like this, This to
me feels like an anomaly of a Marvel movie, because
this is the first one where I kind of feel
we are the Ora Boris Ediant's own table. I agree,
we're like we are this is this is Marvel making
a movie about the MCU, not Marvel Comics.

Speaker 1 (52:32):
I also think, and we joked about it before. I
think you can see people's contracts are coming up for Hey,
by this point, we were supposed to have this many movies,
so we gotta I guess we'll make a Thunderbolts movie.

Speaker 2 (52:42):
I also think this was I think this is a
big part of why this happened the way it was
is because I think they owed Florence Pugh another story movie. Yeah,
and they were like, we can't make Black Widow too,
And I honestly think they should have just made Black
Widow too.

Speaker 1 (52:56):
I again, I will die on this hill. Marvel needs
a movie called black Wood on Hawkey yep, and you
can do it with the current Black Widow absolutely.

Speaker 2 (53:04):
Yeah, Lan, which by the way, I think they've been
they they were together in the Hawkeye TV show. Yeah. Yeah,
Like so the history is there. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:12):
No, I I like they should they should not in
phase one with the Ogs do it now? Like, yeah,
you could do it, and that's what I want. I
don't need another team. Yeah, I'm not a big teams girly.
I've said that for here year.

Speaker 2 (53:23):
If you need a team, it needs to it needs
to have a specific purpose. Besides, like, here's another Avengers team. Yeah,
and it looks like they're just making another.

Speaker 1 (53:29):
Veng and I hope that's not the case. Yeah, you know,
I hope. I hope it comes out and there's a
really cool idea and it's just been some crummy trailers
like that's and that's totally fine.

Speaker 2 (53:39):
It could be.

Speaker 1 (53:40):
So I think this is where we're gonna wrap up
our discussion on the Thunderbolts anything else? Do you think
we should close out with mister Thunderbolts.

Speaker 2 (53:50):
I mean, I look forward to Thunderbolts colon Walmart Plus
exactly coming soon. I don't know, I'm curious. I'm again
it's God, I'm I think they're gonna add a subtitle.
I'm pretty certain they're gonna ask up. And again I'm
putting my money on new Avengers. Yeah, I'm putting my
money on Thunderbolts calling new Avengers.

Speaker 1 (54:10):
I think so because I think it's the most obvious choice.

Speaker 2 (54:12):
Yeah, or or they're just going to retitle the movie
New Avengers because if the first week numbers don't do
so well, and then that way that'll.

Speaker 1 (54:20):
Push people to get Birds of Prey got retitled.

Speaker 2 (54:24):
Yeah, just to break Yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:26):
Yeah. If you want to hear any more about the Thunderbolt,
if you want to read some more some of these
runs that Jason has alluded to, we do have recommended
reading and find that by going to Gee Kissroylsten dot com,
slash recommended reading.

Speaker 2 (54:39):
Wow websites, remember those, Yeah, pick them.

Speaker 1 (54:42):
Up in your format of choice, check out the stories
and then you know, at Jason Inman and let them
know your thoughts on it once you've read them.

Speaker 2 (54:48):
Yeah, only at Jason Emon on Blue Sky though, Yes, at.

Speaker 1 (54:51):
Jo and j w I and everywhere else. What have
we learned today? Or do we have an honorable We
have an honor Sorry Jason, really quick? Would you do
us the honor of telling us what the honor rule?

Speaker 2 (55:03):
Well, the honor rolls were Ashley. If you go to
Apple Podcasts and leaves a five star review, we'll read
whatever you write on the air. So Ashley, who went
to Apple Podcasts and love it's a nice review and
helped us in the AI search algorithms fight those evil
Thunderbolt robots exactly today.

Speaker 1 (55:16):
Joining us in the teacher's lounge is Banister Crow, who says,
fantastic source for geeks and nerds. They said, I stumbled
upon this while hoping to learn more about Captain America
aka the best hero ever. The hosts have awesome chemistry
and banter and make each lessons super fun without going
to long. Banister Crow so much for your five star review.

(55:37):
You have a great, great taste in corvids.

Speaker 2 (55:41):
Yeah, I think so.

Speaker 1 (55:42):
Thank you so much for that.

Speaker 2 (55:43):
So don't forget to subscribe to us everywhere you listen
to podcasts Spotify, Apple podcasts like Banister Crow all those
other places. Ashley, where can they find the where's the
social media that they can find the show on?

Speaker 1 (55:53):
You can find us on Blue Sky, at geek History.

Speaker 2 (55:57):
Lesson rad and where can they find you on social media?

Speaker 1 (56:00):
Can find me all over all social Media's at Ashley V. Robinson.

Speaker 2 (56:03):
Come check me over at threads. I'm at Johnwin j
w I I N got some good stuff going on there.
And now it's for what have we learned? So actually
talking about the Thunderbolts. What the hell have we learned?

Speaker 1 (56:14):
What have we learned today?

Speaker 2 (56:16):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (56:16):
I just said that, Well, today we have learned Thunderbolts, Asterix, Walmart, Walmart, Walmart, Walmart, Walmart, Walmart, Walmart, Walmart, Walmart,
New Avengers. That's as many characters as I could. You know,
thank you.

Speaker 2 (56:29):
We were kidding about like not giving sponsors the kick kat,
and then we just gave so many chouts at the Walmart.

Speaker 1 (56:35):
Well, I'm not ever getting people shop at Walmart. I
just think the ass.

Speaker 2 (56:39):
Seems like you are.

Speaker 1 (56:40):
I'm definitely not.

Speaker 2 (56:41):
Thunderbolts do screw Walmart.

Speaker 1 (56:43):
Yeah, Thunderbolts do Target for Life, No, don't Target three.
We love Macy. Thunderbolts for shop small. I guess Thunderbolts
for the department stores are set.

Speaker 2 (56:54):
Go to main Street your local towns. They're dying. Give
them their money for God's sake. Will help Grandma Mimi
out at her pawn store. Give her buy that lamp,
that lamp you've been looking for, buy it. Yeah, don't
go buy that cheap crap at Target in Walmart, go
buy go find the cool lamp at Grandma Mimi's.

Speaker 1 (57:14):
Yeah, go buy it from yelling it belover. Remember in
another life she sold Lasurie. What in in the comic
books she tells Lasuerie. Okay, she's an independent maker. Oh
so support independent female creative.

Speaker 2 (57:27):
Man. If that was in the Thunderbolts movie, i'd be there.

Speaker 1 (57:29):
Yeah, definitely, where's that scene at Well, that'll be phase six.

Speaker 2 (57:34):
I don't give a damn about these faces? Who cares?

Speaker 1 (57:37):
I'm only pretty sure I know what face we're in
right now.

Speaker 2 (57:40):
You said you thought we were in four.

Speaker 1 (57:41):
I think it's four.

Speaker 2 (57:42):
I think we're further than that. You want to google
it real quick and confirm? Yeah, we love Everybody has
been screaming at us this entire time, cause you're in
phase seventeen.

Speaker 1 (57:51):
Apparently it's in phase five. When did phase five start?

Speaker 2 (57:54):
Who the hell knows?

Speaker 1 (57:55):
Crazy?

Speaker 2 (57:56):
After in game? Who gives a damn? Why do we
need to know companies marketing schemes, That's what I want
to know. We don't need to know this.

Speaker 1 (58:03):
Well, we are a podcast that attributes apparently begin with
Antman and the wat Quantumnia.

Speaker 2 (58:09):
Yeah, everyone's favorite movie.

Speaker 1 (58:11):
I don't know if I've ever left a Marble movie Angrier. Honestly,
should we say goodbye?

Speaker 2 (58:16):
We should say goodbye, thank you so much for listening
to everybody. I'm Jason Inman, I'm Ashley Victoria Robinson and
Professor Ashley. Will you please close out this maybe Walmart
sponsor podcast.

Speaker 1 (58:28):
Class is now dismissed.