Why Procedural TV Shows Keep Us Hooked (Watson & Suits LA)

We’re cracking the case on why procedural TV shows have kept audiences hooked for decades. From the exciting debut of Watson to the legal drama of Suits LA, we break down what makes this storytelling format so addictive.We uncover the history of procedural television, including the fascinating discovery of the very first procedural TV show, and explore how the format has evolved over time. What makes these shows so binge-worthy? And what are the risks and rewards of telling self-contained stories in a serialized world?Whether it’s solving crimes, winning court cases, or unraveling mysteries, procedural TV shows continue to dominate our screens and we’re here to explain why.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:12):
Law and Order, in CIS House, Criminal Minds, CSI. These
are all procedural television shows. Now what does that mean.
I'm going to define a procedural for you. A procedural
television show is a show with a consistent episodic format
or a problem, which is usually a crime or a mystery,

(00:34):
is introduced, solved, and resolved within the same episode. Procedurals
are usually considered to be the comfort food of television.
They are predictable, they're satisfying, and they're endlessly rewatchable. So, Ashley,
let me ask you, why do audiences keep coming back

(00:57):
to procedural shows even though they know exactly how they're
gonna end, They know they're going to resolve the issue.

Speaker 2 (01:05):
First of all, procedurals have such a stranglehold on American
pop culture and like Western television, that when you said
Law and Order, I had to fight the urge to
go done done. Like it's so just proliferates television culture.

Speaker 1 (01:23):
Somebody has that sid effects.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
Oh, don't do it, don't worry about it. But the
answer to your question, I think you've answered it in
the phrasing of your question. We like it because we
know exactly what's going to happen. It's the same thing
that we love about an episode of reality television. If
you watch enough reality television, you know how the whole
series is gonna go. Forget how one episode is gonna go.

(01:47):
I can tell you who's gonna win RuPaul's drag race
from this from the second they bring the cast down
in the opening credits, like.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
I'm sorry, I'm familiar with that show. Is that a
procedural TV show?

Speaker 2 (01:55):
Uh, it's sure, yes it is. They have to solve
a drag problem every single episode.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
Is it a crime?

Speaker 2 (02:02):
Sometimes against taste? And by the end some you know,
and also people do there are medical issues. I think
seven people have ripped their meniscus in the course of
doing the show.

Speaker 1 (02:13):
Sounds like we need to get the coups of this.

Speaker 2 (02:15):
So yes, But to go back to procedural television, it's
because human brains love patterns, and it's arguably something very
similar to comic books. For the length of a procedural
you're in the perpetual second act. You know what's going
to happen, you know the type of problem, and you
get a resolution. And the thing that makes us happiest

(02:38):
as people with lizard brains is the solution.

Speaker 1 (02:41):
To a problem.

Speaker 2 (02:42):
It's a we get a dopamine hit when we accomplish
a task. That's why that meme of like I put
off this task that took me fifteen minutes and I
was done really quickly.

Speaker 1 (02:50):
Like, it's the same thing.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
So we know when we turn on CSI that by
the end of the episode, Nick and Greg and Sarah
are going to have it down on lock and then
in between if we get to learn a little bit
about them, that's just icing on the cake. It's not
that they're that procedural television isn't challenging, but it's that
the familiarity outweighs that, and it's just it's like being

(03:14):
Homer Simpson when he's the big Cinnamon role. That's what
procedural television is.

Speaker 1 (03:18):
Oh, I couldn't have said it better and with that
didn't quite work. That's okay, don't play it again. Copyright
This is okay. Janet Garcia who put this on YouTube,
I'm calling you out.

Speaker 2 (03:30):
You should be a better sound edit.

Speaker 1 (03:32):
It should be a better sound editor. There we go.

Speaker 2 (03:37):
Then that's the real crime, is us arguing with something
we found for free on the internet.

Speaker 1 (03:41):
Hello and Welcome to Geek History Lesson. Everybody. I'm Jason Inman.

Speaker 2 (03:45):
I'm Ashley Victoria Robinson. Welcome to your mind University, which
is what we call the inner workings of this podcast
because you have found Geek History Lesson or one television
writer from Kansas and one comic book writer from Canada
teach you everything you need to know or debate a
subject in about an hour. And today we're gonna We're
gonna get into the nitty gritty of television procedurals and

(04:09):
we're doing it for a really cool reason. Isn't that right? Jason, Yes, Wow,
you're really.

Speaker 1 (04:18):
We are right now, everybody. There's a show procedural television
shows coming out. It's called suits La. We could talk
about suits La till the cows come. Oh, it's a
procedural television show. It's out there, but I'd rather talk
about a procedural television that's airing Sunday on CBS called
Watson Yes specific time six pm, Central Time, eight pm.

(04:38):
I was a staff writer. I wrote one of the
episodes of the show. It's a Marvel's show starring Morris
Chestnutsolvy medical Mysteries and it's I think a good procedural
television show.

Speaker 2 (04:48):
And you really have had to spend your last year
figuring out what is good about procedural television, what you
want to write in procedurals. This is a brain dump
of everything Jason is meant the last year working.

Speaker 1 (04:58):
On and the awesome showrunner of the show, Craig Sweeney,
was an executive producer and Elementary, and I learned a
lot from him. Very thankful he brought me onto the
show and he has been thinking and manipulating and crafting
procedural television he worked on. He's one of the co
EPs of Elementary, Yeah, which a lot of people consider

(05:19):
to be one of the best procedural television shows of
all time. Yeah, so yeah, procedural television show it procedural television,
especially since we sort of, I don't know, for some
people define the sort of streaming era of televisions, the
goals and aerra of television, right when shows when HBO
Game of Thrones exploded and Netflix exploded and all breaking bad,
all these things like that. But you know it didn't

(05:41):
go away during all those periods.

Speaker 2 (05:43):
Procedural television well, well, suits which is the precursor to
suits LA, which Dabusi week again like Jason, which is
why we're talking about this today, the megan market vehicle Suits.
When when Suit dropped on Netflix a couple of years ago,
it became that show has been off the ear like
a decade.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
It was the most watched thing on that slide, which just.

Speaker 2 (06:02):
Goes to show you that even in a completely different
format in the digital streaming era of television, that's what
people want. CSIS and NCIS is and Chicago's is a
nine to one ones like consistently remain top viewed television.
They prop up huge corners of the industry with their success.
So we would be foolish you ignore their powers.

Speaker 1 (06:25):
Yes, So I want to talk about the ten cent
origin of basically explaining you what a procedural television show
and basically explain to you why preceido television is not
all crap because a lot of people dismiss procedural television,
and I actually think there are a lot of really
great television shows that are hidden in the box of

(06:47):
prezert tell and proceidal television can be great.

Speaker 2 (06:50):
Yes, And sometimes when people are oversimplifying, they will tell
you that narrative television has an overarching story and sedural
television doesn't case of the week, case of the week,
problem of the week, monster of the week, any kind
of those phrases. And people think.

Speaker 1 (07:07):
That those two are mutually exclusive.

Speaker 2 (07:09):
Well here and they're not.

Speaker 1 (07:10):
Here's the kicker, because you know, serialized television has existed
in various forms, you know, for years and years and years,
but it really didn't become popular and become the main
storytelling method of television intel about twenty years ago, fifteen
years ago, and before that it was all procedurals, baby, Like,
what do you think Bonanza is?

Speaker 2 (07:29):
Like people lay it at the feet of Lost, which
I think is fairly accurate in terms of the mainstream
but there are there's like one hundred examples before Loss
came along.

Speaker 1 (07:39):
Startreuk D Space nine and the nineties of serialized television hundred.
But startreuk D Space nine is also weirdly a.

Speaker 2 (07:44):
Pure vision and also genre. Like, you know, we're getting
into this, this thing that's been a little bit of
a theme in our discussions where we're not everything is
so black and white.

Speaker 1 (07:52):
So tell me about procedural TV show. So procedural television
shows have been a staple of television for decades. It
is a procedural or procedural drama, because comedies can be
procedurals too. What is a cross genre type of literature, film,
or television program which places an emphasis on technical detail.

(08:14):
Due to their standalone episodic nature, they are more accessible
to new viewers than serials. Really, briefly, actually, would you
like to explain what a serial is to the audience?
And I don't mean like the stuffy you portable and
have with help.

Speaker 2 (08:26):
No, it's spelled like the serial killer type because the
word serial denotes a pattern and so, and it denotes change,
and it denotes growth. So serialized television is where it's
it's like a trade. You're telling one big story as
opposed to episode specific, smaller stories.

Speaker 1 (08:46):
Yeah. So procedurals are generally self contained. That's the big difference.
Episodes that make it easier for viewers to return to
a show even if they have missed episodes in between.
So like, you can watch episode two, then watch episode eight,
and you should be able to basically follow the storyline.

Speaker 2 (09:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:03):
In general, procedural dramas are built that way so that
they can be rerun with little concern for episode order,
where a serial television has to be run in order.
It makes no sense.

Speaker 2 (09:13):
Well, let's be honest, they're made that way. For my
mom who watches a TV show, it takes ten years
to learn what it's called.

Speaker 1 (09:17):
Now. Procedurals are often criticized for being formulaic, uh huh,
and procedural television shows can be police procedurals, courtroom dramas,
government procedurals, and medical shows. They have a lot of
common tropes and actually I'm gonna tell you about some
of them. Here are some very common tropes of procedural television.
They usually have a case of a week. Yeah, like
I said, new crime, new investigation, new arrest. They generally

(09:39):
have character arcs that usually is one of the few
serialized elements of the show. Characters generally develop over the
course of a season or a series. Unlike an episode,
they usually have a consistent framework, so the episodes are
very similar. Like the first act is usually the same,
the second act is usually the third act. We catch
the bad guy whatever. Whatever. Some of the tropes of

(10:04):
procedural television is and I think this was made very
famous by a very show called CSI Miami, which is
there is a very funny there's a very funny YouTube
compilation population. One of common trope procedures are is the
quip to black, which is called a dramatic one liner,
when the lead investigator is followed by a cut to black.
Yeah see ho Miami memed.

Speaker 2 (10:24):
This made it internet culture for sure.

Speaker 1 (10:26):
But the most famous one is the who Done It,
where it is the criminal's identity is hidden until the
end of the episode. And that is most because most
procedural shows are police procedurals. That's the biggest of the genre.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
And this is obviously derivative of Who Done It? Writing
from everything from Sherlock HOLMBS Stag a Christie.

Speaker 1 (10:43):
Yes, now I could tell you more about procedural television, Okay,
but I have to say this first. This sounds like
is gonna be the death of all right?

Speaker 2 (11:03):
Are you the secret victim of the podcast episode of
Law and Order?

Speaker 1 (11:07):
Probably? But if you don't want to be a secret victim,
I just want to tell everybody out there to go
check out the geek history lesson Patreon, which is over
at patreon dot com slash jawin. That's jawii in.

Speaker 2 (11:18):
The best place on the whole ding dang Internet.

Speaker 1 (11:19):
It's where you can get ad free episodes of GHL
where the sound effects work I swear exclusive discord access
and GHL Extra, which is a bonus podcast we do
every single week where we're now starting to take listener questions.
So if you want to try something new, try something different,
go check it out. Even the bonus podcast like Talking
Titans over there, get over to patreon dot com. Slash

(11:41):
jawin jawii in the Patreon is the whole reason why
this podcast is lasted for eleven years exactly. We're literally
in the eleventh year right now. Do you realize this?
We have crossed. I realized we have crossed into the
barrier of eleven years.

Speaker 2 (11:56):
We're preteens right now, and we take ourselves very serious.

Speaker 1 (12:00):
We're gonna be older than most cats and dogs pretty soon.

Speaker 2 (12:02):
Don't say that the podcast.

Speaker 1 (12:04):
Don't say that, thank you for being older than cats
and dogs Patreon dot com.

Speaker 2 (12:12):
That's so upsetting.

Speaker 1 (12:14):
Not upsetting, It's just, you know, it's the way life is.
Because ma'am, I don't know how to tell you, but
sometimes there you outlive the cats and dogs.

Speaker 2 (12:24):
I don't want to live in that world.

Speaker 1 (12:27):
Okay, now, Ashley, Yeah, you know a lot of people
think procedural television. It's very maybe nineties eighties thing, sure,
but it was around way earlier. Yeah, do you want
to take a wild guess about what you think the
first procedural television show was. Now, I've given you all

(12:49):
the definitions of what procedural televisions are.

Speaker 2 (12:51):
Yeah, I will tell you you are aware of this show.

Speaker 1 (12:55):
Have I watched it? I would say probably not.

Speaker 2 (12:58):
Okay, I'd like to ask for a hint.

Speaker 1 (13:03):
Sure, is it a Western? No? Because I'm sorry, I
need to sorry, man, officer, I thought you you come
back with a warrant.

Speaker 2 (13:15):
Okay, this is not procedural television.

Speaker 1 (13:20):
Gentlemen, she knows her right.

Speaker 2 (13:23):
Exactly, because all my brain is giving me is Bonanza,
and I know that's not true.

Speaker 1 (13:32):
I mean Bonanza was a procedural. Yeah, yeah, this is
this show predates Bonanza.

Speaker 2 (13:37):
I bet. I was like, it's gotta be. I'm betting
it's in the fifties.

Speaker 1 (13:41):
You are correct, in the decade.

Speaker 2 (13:45):
Andy Griffith show.

Speaker 1 (13:47):
No, it's not. It's not a procedural. I think show
was a procedural.

Speaker 2 (13:51):
It's either a cop show or a doctor show.

Speaker 1 (13:54):
It is a cop show. Now, I'm only gonna be
one more thing, because this is this We're dragging this
out way too long.

Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah, I can't. I can't come up like I have
no idea.

Speaker 1 (14:02):
It was a show that the History Blues is a
show called Dragnet.

Speaker 2 (14:10):
Oh yeah, I mean I'm aware Dragnet exists, but I
would have never ever been.

Speaker 1 (14:14):
That's all I said.

Speaker 2 (14:15):
Okay, you watched it, you are aware of it, but
I would have never guessed.

Speaker 1 (14:20):
Rag Dragnet is the first procedural television show, starting on
radio in nineteen forty nine to television in nineteen fifty one.
The show is a documentary style police drama that focused
on the aftermath of crimes and its victims. Now Dragnet again.
Based on a popular radio drama created by Jack Webb,

(14:40):
the show was known for its realistic style, which avoided
dramatic acting and instead used closed camera angles and teleprompters.
The show followed Sergeant Joe Friday and his partners as
they investigated crimes in Los Angeles, and although the show's
ratings were initially low, viewers eventually came to appreciate this

(15:02):
style and Jack Web's approach because most episodes had we
caught the criminal by the end.

Speaker 2 (15:09):
I want to let people know if you're wondering why
Jason described it as I can remember how you described
the acting, but sort of like grounded in real world acting.
Nineteen forties acting.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
Melodramatic acting, I think would have been the better yet.

Speaker 2 (15:23):
Nineteen forties acting, because it's a direct lift from stage acting.
And when you watch it now, it's all the imagine
the young Ajen who throwing herself down onto the bed
to weep for the closing thirty seconds of a scene.
It's very heightened because we weren't quite sure. Acting on
camera's considered very small nowadays, and this is a transition period.
So this while while you while you're hearing this description

(15:45):
and you're like, yeah, sounds like a pursuing This would
have been revolutionary in the forties.

Speaker 1 (15:50):
Again, the idea that they let these actors just breathe
from a telepropter and we're just.

Speaker 2 (15:54):
Play it straight.

Speaker 1 (15:54):
Play it flat, yeah, play it flat.

Speaker 2 (15:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:57):
Very interesting. So we have to talk about some of
the procedure that have defined the genre of procedural television. Okay,
I've been playing at sound effect the entire episode. I
think as soon as you say procedural television, we all
think of one show, yeah, and that is Law and Order. Yeah,
the Dick Wolf of Verse with all its various spin offs,

(16:17):
because we all know that sound. I mean, the main
show ran for twenty plus years. Law and Order Special
victis plus twenty years. It is considered to be the
ultimate procedural again with its iconic doun done sound that
I've been playing that has been plaguing me this entire episode.

Speaker 2 (16:33):
It's so iconic that to this day rush Caahargatea is
the highest paid woman on television because of the power
of that series. Yeah, if you didn't know.

Speaker 1 (16:41):
Like it is, it is like, yeah, it is like
the ultimate definition of procedural television. You cannot mention it.
It's simple, it's consistent, it's endlessly watchable. Even though they
recast their cast like every couple of years, it's still
the same show. Yeah. Another one that I now again,
I went to a couple of lists and kind of
amalgamated legs from a bunch of different top tens. Yes.

(17:01):
Another show that is on this list multiple times is
Criminal Minds.

Speaker 2 (17:06):
Oh, I loved Criminal Minds when it was on.

Speaker 1 (17:07):
I loved Criminal Minds is a darker procedural that dies
in the Psychology of Criminals. Now, a lot of people
think that, boy, this is a great procedural television. It's
because it has fascinating cases and it was one of
the procedural televisions that really dug into a strong ensemble cast.

Speaker 2 (17:22):
They were also what I always thought was cool because
I watched CSI around the same time Criminal Minds. They
almost always left their sets. They almost always went out
into the world because they were a task force who
was sent anywhere in the US to a crime scene.
And that is a different visual language than like a
lab procedural, where you're seeing them usually in the same

(17:44):
type of environments.

Speaker 1 (17:45):
Another one, here's a medical procedural that's entering the list.
House loved House when it was on a medical procedural
with a inspired Ashley's favorite word, anti hero, not.

Speaker 2 (17:56):
The thing a show just a grump.

Speaker 1 (17:59):
Yeah he's Hugh Laurie played a grumpy doctor and there
was a unique medical mystery.

Speaker 2 (18:04):
Yeah, Hugh Laurie is the reason that we love that show.

Speaker 1 (18:06):
Now, this next one I saw on multiple lists of
the best procedural television shows of all time. This is
a show that is one of my favorite shows of
all time. And I was surprised to see that it
is maybe more loved because I think a lot of
people I've forgotten about this. A person of Interest is
considered to be one of the best procedural television shows.

Speaker 2 (18:27):
Of all timeson is literally watching it. I'm right now.

Speaker 1 (18:31):
It's a procedural that combines crime solving with sci fi.
It is a very sci fi show, and it's a
procedural that's sort of kind of undefined. It's hard to define. Yeah,
because it's just about two guys getting these numbers from
a machine and then they just like go and help people.
That's the show.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
Yeah, it feels sci fi without necessarily being sci fi.

Speaker 1 (18:52):
It says it's it's it. They said. One of the
reasons that made the Yeah the top ten list is
that said that it was like, it is a secret
sci fi show that doesn't feel like a sci fi show.

Speaker 2 (19:02):
Because it's safe because it's a procedures. It's about AI. Yeah,
and then yeah ten years ago, yeah, literally starting twenty eleven. Yeah,
it's a show about AI. But it says it.

Speaker 1 (19:11):
It always balanced his episodic cases with great serialized storytelling,
and I've always said I've always thought it was a
great show that balanced both worlds very it is, I
think a serialized show and a procedural show at the
same time.

Speaker 2 (19:23):
If you're a geek Castroy Lesson listener who's been with
us since the beginning, you've heard Jason talk about person
of interest since our very first year.

Speaker 1 (19:30):
This is one that I've never seen. This was on
multiple top ten lists to psych.

Speaker 2 (19:35):
Oh yeah, another Sherilockia.

Speaker 1 (19:38):
Yes dam in our first comedy a Liehearder detective procedural,
the comedic twist, and a lot of people say that
the reason why this made it into the top is
because it's the chemistry. This is a duo, yes, a procedural.
It's it's the idea of that it's about two people
sort of having you work these cases out together. Now, Ashlely,
I want to ask you, like, what lessons can writers

(20:01):
learn from procedural formats when crafting stories? Like what do
you see from writing from watching procedural television that can
help any writer in any medium.

Speaker 2 (20:11):
I think procedurals are, from a writerly perspective, valuable and
interesting for two different reasons. When you work on a
procedural or when you watch a procedural for a really
long time. Just like anything, you start to notice the
same names. Right, Typically, if somebody's on for a long time,
you might notice like, oh, this person always writes my

(20:32):
favorite episode. And procedurals, uniquely of any television show, allow you,
I think, to level up as a writer because and
a storyteller, because they allow you that ten thousand hours
of practice where if you're constrained to we have to
do X, Y Z or it's not a CSI episode,

(20:52):
you have to get really good at that, probably like
bag of fifteen tricks. Whereas if you're making the HB
a Watchman show, the world is literally your universe and
you can kind of do whatever you want and and
that sometimes that much freedom obviously not in the case
of Watchmen, but sometimes that much freedom can be difficult.
So I think procedural television allows the people making the

(21:15):
stories at all levels, editors, actors, directors, to really hone
in on what is good and special and the audience
responds to about it. The other thing, which is the
opposite of that, where I think procedurals really shine is
it's knowing when to break the mold. Because with CSI,
the best episode of CSI is the two parter at

(21:36):
the end of season six where Nick is.

Speaker 1 (21:37):
Stuck in the box. You know who wrote that?

Speaker 2 (21:39):
Quentin Tarantino, correct, Yeah, who is not?

Speaker 1 (21:42):
Who is?

Speaker 2 (21:43):
Who?

Speaker 1 (21:43):
Was not a regular separator Apparently he was a huge
fan of CSI and just said was like, can I
do an episode?

Speaker 2 (21:49):
Yes, and it's very atypical of CSI.

Speaker 1 (21:52):
Yeah, but it is the best episode of that entire series.

Speaker 2 (21:55):
Yes, and there's a lot of other really great episodes,
but like I will I Will die on the Hill,
but that's the best episodes. Those two episodes are the
best episode of any CSI and any franchise ever made.
So like, procedural television is so interesting because it lets
you hone in on how you create the comfort food,
but it also challenges the creatives, I think, on where
to push the boundaries. And it's when both of those

(22:17):
work well. So when it's a perfect like you did
everything I want to do, that is satisfying, and when
it's like, oh, you've done nothing I expect you to do,
that's satisfying in a different way. And as a viewer,
you get to have both of it. You get to
eat your cake and have it too.

Speaker 1 (22:32):
I think it's more like something like. What I would
say is that it's the idea that when you're writing
a procedurals story, it's something that again you have to
create the comfort food because that is what people. People
are coming to see the doctor solves the medical mystery,
or they're coming to see the doc the excuse me,
the criminal, excuse the criminals, the detective catch the criminal. Yeah, right,

(22:56):
so you have to do that. But you also have
to do that because you're writing on a show that
has a repeatable pattern that you have to figure out, well,
how do I do that uniquely? Yeah, in a way
that they've never seen before.

Speaker 2 (23:10):
What's the little twist I can add every week?

Speaker 1 (23:13):
And so that makes you think way outside of the box,
and that makes you think in because you can't because again,
if you're writing like a serialized show and you did
your episode that is like, oh, this week, we catch
the criminal, then you could just literally just be like wow,
I just make it like you know, any episode a
lot of.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
Order, well, or think about think about like a Law
and Order versus something like a true detective. They don't
do the same thing. And when you try too hard
to cross those it's not satisfying as a viewer.

Speaker 1 (23:41):
Yeah, all right, So we're going to talk about real
quick genres or themes that won't really work in procedural
television formats and why's and why not. But we're gonna
get to that right after these messages GHL, we're back
talking about why proceed TV shows keep us hooked. Yes,

(24:03):
they do because they can be really great. They do
because they're Pevolovian. But next, let's talk about you know,
so maybe something procedure television is not that great at
Is there a genre? Is there a theme you think
that procedure television probably can't do? What do you think?

Speaker 2 (24:18):
Uh? It's interesting because I know whatever I say, you're
gonna be able to come up with an example of it. Sure,
because my first instinct is horror, and I know people
are like but now I can't I can see them
on my brain and I can't think of what it's
called the Gillian Anderson Show.

Speaker 1 (24:38):
Uh, the what the X Files?

Speaker 2 (24:40):
Like, I'm gonna say, like, I don't think you can
do horror and people can be but the X Files.

Speaker 1 (24:44):
I was gonna say, Twin Peaks.

Speaker 2 (24:45):
Actually, would you consider Twin Peaks a.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
Procedural Yeah, it's a cop show.

Speaker 2 (24:51):
Yeah, but it's about like one case.

Speaker 1 (24:54):
Yeah, but it's about again the technical detail. It is
a cop. So now there is nothing to the definition
that says it can't be one case because there is
a There was a television show that is one hundred
percent of procedural television show years and years ago, and
it was called Murder One. Yeah. Yeah, and it was
a Fox television show that was all about one case.
But it was like the idea that like each week

(25:16):
they found like the procedural detail was we found a
new clue.

Speaker 2 (25:21):
Okay, but then by but we just talked about like
do you I would consider True Detective a procedural?

Speaker 1 (25:27):
Yeah, but there are like again when you're thinking about
a procedural again, yeah, you're the The thing is. The
thing is not that it's catched the criminal every week. Now,
I understand that it's about you're coming back to watch
these characters do a technical detail every week.

Speaker 2 (25:42):
I'm just gonna respectfully disagree with you. I don't think
Twin Peaks count. I think Twin Peaks, for my money,
it doesn't count. As I think Twin Peaks is going
to be the show that the hill that we died
on it.

Speaker 1 (25:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:54):
So horror, horror comes to mind for me, and then
by contrasts like romance, and what I mean by romance
is I mean I mean like a Hallmark movie, you know,
something like very sweet, where like kind of nothing bad
ever happens and the worst thing is like the doctor
down the street misplaced his invitation to the charity events.

Speaker 1 (26:17):
Well, I guess I've been watching The Good Witch. I
was like, I canna pull out a procedural that I
think it is close to its parenthood from the late
twenty tens and now again. Yeah, now that was more
about like it's always family stuff family, but like you
were coming every episode because you knew, like, well, the
family's gonna mess up something this week.

Speaker 2 (26:35):
Yeah, and then they're gonna it's It is interesting because
it's it's the word technical is what's catching me, you know.
But ultimately what I think is and why I think
the procedural is such a staple of television is I
think I think what's the right creative team? I think
you can fit Yeah, any genre.

Speaker 1 (26:54):
I was gonna say. The answer to this to me
is no, I just think it's harder.

Speaker 2 (26:59):
Like romance and or are just the opposite ends of.

Speaker 1 (27:01):
The it's not as technical. It just depends on what
detail you come in. So like, you know, again we
talked about medical dramas, right, medical procedurals House.

Speaker 2 (27:09):
It's very straightforward. How that fits in the procedural.

Speaker 1 (27:12):
Raise anatomy, right, Oh yeah, they highlight the expertise of
the characters. Yeah, very famous sci fi procedural Quantum Leap absolutely, Yeah,
time traveling man has to solve a new problem of
a person every single week, and he doesn't know where
he's going to be again, boy oh boy, Captain Jonathan
Archer leaping through time. And then you think about there

(27:33):
are comedy procedurals which psych and technically Castle, which is
a cop procedural, Yeah, and a comedy procedural. They're light,
they're more accessible, they're interesting things about that.

Speaker 2 (27:45):
Can I can I ask you a question since we're
talking genre specifically, sure, do you consider Star Trek.

Speaker 1 (27:49):
To be a procedural?

Speaker 2 (27:51):
Because I was gonna say maybe you would push against
it now, but certainly like not like the the the
the nineties aughts era is definitely like it is sci
fi problem of the week, and we we know there's
sort of this handful of solutions. We're probably gonna come
to and then by the end the problem is usually fixed.
It might crop up again later down the line, or

(28:13):
it might be a causality. Cause uh, but I think
they're trying to push that a.

Speaker 1 (28:17):
Little bit well, as Star Trek is space procedural, especially
classic Star Trek, because it's always like new alien, new planet,
new disease, thing usually solved by the end of the episode,
and then they were in there is like you look
at like something like Starter Discovery. Well, Star Discovery is
one hundred percent serialized, yeah, but like Strange New Worlds
is a procedural.

Speaker 2 (28:35):
Yeah, And I guess a better sci fi example might
be one of the stargates. Like SG one is definitely
a procedural.

Speaker 1 (28:42):
SG one is a procedural Stargate Universe is not.

Speaker 2 (28:45):
Yes, yeah, but Atlantis is also a procedure.

Speaker 1 (28:47):
So you know, it's like going back to it, like
it's funny. I'm like literally looking up episodes of Twin
Peaks right now because because to me, it's like it's like,
I do agree with you that, Like I don't think
True Detective is a procedural. Yeah, right, you know, but
there is the thing of even though again I think

(29:09):
you can do a procedural about like one mystery.

Speaker 2 (29:12):
I don't disagree with, you know, I just think twin
Peaks structurally is two out there to be a procedure.

Speaker 1 (29:17):
I agree with that, but to me, it's still like.

Speaker 2 (29:20):
But it definitely you know, what it does A.

Speaker 1 (29:21):
Lot of it is it's the it's the cop interviewing
every episode of the cop interviewing the talent.

Speaker 2 (29:25):
You know, what I think we're catching on is maybe
it's not at its core purely a procedural, but it's
playing on the tropes and expectations of a procedural in
order to get to the weird people dancing in the
red room at the end.

Speaker 1 (29:37):
So something I want to talk about here is that
we again we're and then this is the thing we're
finling fighting about. And I guess it's our disagreement between Peaks,
right is because like we see this term different, right,
and it's a big difference between serialized television and procedural television.
Is basically long term character arcs. Yeah right now, some

(29:58):
procedural television shows basically ignore these, Like the only time
a character will change in some procedural television shows is
the season premiere and the season finale, yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:09):
Or sometimes even the series finale. Serialized show generally will
move the character a little We'll push that needle a
little bit in every episode, and I think really good
procedural television shows will do that in every episode, even
though it's mainly about the case or the mystery or
whatever you want to say. I think CSI does that, Yes,
like I One of the reasons why I love Person

(30:29):
of Interest and why I say it's also like a
great serialized television show as well as a good character piece,
is that Person Interests I think really does a good job.

Speaker 1 (30:38):
And it's streaming for free on Amazon Prime by the way,
not sponsored, not sponsored at all, but if you want
to watch it free, it's all on Amazon for all
five seasons or on Amazon Prime. Every single episode there
is a case of the week. They always have a
person to help them, and every once in a while
they'll have an episode that is full about mythology, like
it's about the AI and it's about like they're thing. Yeah,

(31:00):
but during that episode they will still have a case
or a person they got to help and it sort
of gets twined in. But Person of Interest I think
gets around the problem that was inspired by Lost, And
what I mean by that is that Lost got a
lot of criticism. I love the show a lot, but

(31:22):
a flaw of Lost is that there were many episodes
where the overall arc of the series yeah, never got
pushed forward. Yeah, you did nothing with it.

Speaker 2 (31:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:32):
And I think Person of Interest is a really good
job that even an episode that has nothing to do
with the overall series arc of AI in the Machine
and everything to do with that, there's always one scene
that ties into the arc. So the arc, the story
gets pushed a couple inches down the road.

Speaker 2 (31:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:49):
And then again when you when you pull back and
look at the season of twenty episodes, you're like, oh, hell,
we went five miles. Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (31:54):
It's interesting because it seems like they managed, they managed
to integrate, and obviously Loss is a stepping stone along
the way. The perpetual problem that you hear about again
the X Files, the show that named that I forgot
because X Files fanned will will die on the hill
of Like are you a monster of the weak person
or are you a a mythology person?

Speaker 1 (32:15):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (32:15):
Because they didn't seem to manage to integrate those two things.
And it's probably because they did it first, Yeah, and
they did it on such a scale first, and then
you get something like loss, which does it better but
not perfect, and then you get to a person of interest.
It's like how we always talk about like better call
salt is better than breaking bad because it stands on
the should Like that's the history of that sort of genre.

Speaker 1 (32:32):
Right, I mean, so, I guess I want to ask you, like,
you know, like, are there what procedurals out there do
you think like you mentioned a couple, but are there
anyone out there that you think a good example of
like balancing both those masters?

Speaker 2 (32:43):
Yeah, I mean again CSI. And when I say CSI,
I mean I mean Vegas.

Speaker 1 (32:47):
That's the show.

Speaker 2 (32:49):
William Peterson, Gill Grissom.

Speaker 1 (32:50):
Yeah, his arc and CSI, especially in the first like
two or three seasons, is really good. Yeah. And then
he loses it's about him. Spoilers for CSI came out
twenty years ago. It's about him losing his hearing, right, yes,
it is.

Speaker 2 (33:00):
And it's about him coming to terms with being the
hot shot who's now the old man. I think he's
forty in the first sight, he's over the hill, and
it's him and Catherine learning how to and how to
trust their team and how to pass on and then
that sort of gets resolved because they realized the show
was going to run for fifteen years. It was a
runaway success. And then they introduced the complication of Sarah,

(33:23):
the youngest member of the team, is in love with
him and he likes her, but he they're on the
same team, and he struggles with with the office politics
of it, but also his personal struggle. And then you
also watch Catherine, who's kind of his lieutenant. She's dealing
with ramifications from her past because she's a single mom,
she used to be a stripper. She doesn't garner the

(33:44):
respect that she deserves in the beginning of the series,
and then she winds up leading the show by the
end of it. So I think they do a really
really clear example of it in Criminal Minds.

Speaker 1 (33:54):
There's a great set you like.

Speaker 2 (33:56):
I really liked Criminal Lines. Yeah, there's a season finale
where the best character on the show, played by Matthew
Gray Gobbler gets kidnapped and tortured, and so like the
twists on the finales, they have to rescue a team
member and how he pieces out clues to them and
the person who has kidnapped him, injects him with I

(34:16):
can't remember but some drug, and then he has he
becomes an addict, and so they throw this big problem
on him that he has to come out of that.
He also has a mom who is played by Jane Lynch,
who has I think it's schizophrenia, but I think it
would be a different diagnosis now. So he's struggling to

(34:36):
manage his personal life with his professional life because he's
the young wonder kid. He's like the guy who's smarter
than everyone. And by the end of it again, he
steps into a leadership role. And because a lot of
these shows are structurally based in a professional workplace, the
characters who have the best arc either retire by the
end of the arc and they pass the buck, or
they are the young Buck and they step into the

(34:58):
man right, they do the legacy care they become Batman
by the end of the arc. I'm trying to think.

Speaker 1 (35:04):
Of some more off the top of my head. It's fine,
I'd love to take us into a different different, Yeah,
totally thing here. So again, procedurals I talk about have comfort,
unlike serialized dramas. They wrap up things neatly.

Speaker 2 (35:17):
In a satisfying one to get a resolution dopamine hit.

Speaker 1 (35:21):
Yeah, exactly. Now here's an interesting debate. There are some
shows right there, like Buffy the Vampire Slayer sure, or
The Flash Sure, where there is a case or a
villain of the week, but the case or the villain
of the week is also tied to the serialized arc

(35:41):
of the entire season. This was the entire show. This
was classically talked about as the big bad, and both
of these shows had like big bads of each season.
It's something that's very common in all of Whedon's work,
and it's something that was very common in the Air
over CW overall. Now, are these shows shows like that
procedural or are they serialized?

Speaker 2 (36:03):
There? I mean, the true answer is and they're a hybrid.
But if you remove and anybody who it's sort of
going back to the sort of reframing of procedurals. Like
the only reason you would argue they're not procedurals is
if you're too pretentious to think that procedurals are worth
your time, Like grow up, procedurals are great.

Speaker 1 (36:21):
And I will say when The Flash was coming out,
that was a big.

Speaker 2 (36:24):
Like Barry Allen's a literal cop.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
Yeah, but he's a cop. But that was like again
that that streaming era of Tellivision and was like procedurals sook.

Speaker 2 (36:32):
Yeah, I mean, get over yourself.

Speaker 1 (36:34):
It's always up and down everywhere. Like every once in
a while it's like, procedures are great again, Procedurals are bad.
Procedures are great.

Speaker 2 (36:38):
Precerdus are great right now, Like I mean, they're popular
right now. Obviously your mileage on the genre and the
shows we'll very but there's there's only a height right now.
I think I can only I've seen maybe two episodes
of Buffy in my life, so I can just speak
more to the Flash.

Speaker 1 (36:52):
They have a similar structure.

Speaker 2 (36:54):
But the Flash specifically so so annoying answer. They're a hybrid.
But if you strip away all of the procedural elements
you have in a one hour time slot, you have
maybe twenty minutes worth of content the procedural week to

(37:15):
week episodes outside of the premiere, the mid season finale,
and the final two episodes of the show. The procedural
aspects are what prop up every other.

Speaker 1 (37:24):
Episode that's happening.

Speaker 2 (37:26):
You can't have Barry and Team Flash spent every single
episode for twenty four episodes, twenty two episodes talking about
Savatar because it would be really boring and it would
be the same episode for twenty weeks. So you have
to have them go and fight Apricadabra and weather Wizard,
and yes, maybe they'll get.

Speaker 1 (37:47):
Here one week's Beard's powers aren't working again.

Speaker 2 (37:50):
Yeah, or we're we're bringing Wally into the fold and
he has to learn how to fade.

Speaker 1 (37:54):
But it's generally like those like again, like both of
those shows are like Buffy is usually the monster of
the week, yeah, or Barry was Who's the villain of
the week that I have to stop? And usually the
lesson sometimes they're tied to the Savatar or the various
other the thinker of the various people, or sometimes they're not.

Speaker 2 (38:07):
And yeah, usually the lesson that they learned from the
problem of the week will serve them in the overarching narrative.

Speaker 1 (38:15):
If it's written well, it will be like building block.

Speaker 2 (38:18):
And there's a reason why the episodes that are stinkers
in those seasons are stinkers. It's because they don't and
you're like, oh, okay, so literally what was the point
of this?

Speaker 1 (38:26):
So I want to really quickly talk about some of
the risks in writing procedural televisions, some of the play
the things where.

Speaker 2 (38:36):
That have been keeping you up at night.

Speaker 1 (38:38):
No, that television shows can go wrong in terms of
the procedural format. Yeah, and then we're gonna dive into
our secret Pandora's box a little bit right after this.
All right, ghl, we're back still talking about procedural television.
That's white because we have a procedure on this podcast,
and you know exactly how it's going to go.

Speaker 2 (38:56):
I mean, this podcast is pretty procedural. We've named our segments.

Speaker 1 (39:00):
Boy oh boy, that's why you like it, because it's
comfort food. You're welcome. Bury me in the bucks already.
I'm ready to burial. So procedurals are comforting, but they
also face a lot of challenges. They can become, you know,
too formulaic, like we said, becomes very stale. There can

(39:21):
be a lack of character growth because procedurals will often
prioritize the case of the week over character development, which
will alienate viewers after a certain amount of time, especially
after multiple seasons, because they will be looking for deeper stories.
There also can be fan fatigue because there are so
many procedurals, it can be hard to stand out in

(39:43):
a sea of procedural televisions. So you know, Ashley as
a viewer, yes, what do you think are like or
what are some good shows that you know of where
procedural shows have avoided becoming repetitive or stale. I just
want to say, at least hide the format back, with.

Speaker 2 (40:00):
All due respect, if you go more than five seasons, yeah,
people are gonna it's gonna happen. I think it's just
an inevitability because if you're doing twenty episodes, twenty times
five is one hundred. There's one hundred hours of television
that your fans have engaged with. They've spent way more
time thinking about it, because we engage more with things
that we're interested in than things that we're working on.

(40:20):
So it's I think it's much harder to do later
on in a series, and I do think it's an inevitability.
But I think it's an inevitability. And outside of procedural
television as well. I think when you get to season
eight of Game of Thrones, you're like, I pretty much
know what's gonna happen.

Speaker 1 (40:34):
Although I will say that I do think that seven
seasons is like the perfect length of a television show.

Speaker 2 (40:39):
You are right because you've you've gone long enough that
you have to push against the formula, but not so
long that you're like, my bag of trips is empty.

Speaker 1 (40:45):
I've seen I've seen lots of seven season even eight
season shows that I think, even in the final seasons,
have still maintained.

Speaker 2 (40:52):
I think seven to eight seasons is like the perfect
length for an American television show. Is the perfect length
if somebody wants to cast on a show that will
run twenty seasons, I will be there every single episode.
So to your question where I think some of the
pitfalls can lie.

Speaker 1 (41:11):
That's the question, right and turn myself out of it,
or just like what are some of them? What are
some of the shows you have done a good job
have avoided being repetitive? And why? Like, what is the
thing that what is the element that you think has
made it not feel stale?

Speaker 2 (41:25):
So something that I think is a good I think
Aro did a good job at this, okay, and I
also think CSI Las Vegas did a really good job
at it. You have to bring minor characters into more
major roles, or you have to bring in new characters.

Speaker 1 (41:42):
However, you have.

Speaker 2 (41:44):
To know the absolute right moment to do it and
the absolute right character to do it with. Because I think.

Speaker 1 (41:53):
Flash did it poorly.

Speaker 2 (41:54):
Okay, I think Flash waited too late, and I think
I just don't think they introduced the write types of characters. Mash,
which is a procedural, also does a really good job
at this. Now, sometimes this just happens to you because
somebody quits.

Speaker 1 (42:11):
And is not coming back, or somebody dies.

Speaker 2 (42:14):
Or somebody dies, or somebody has a child or get
gets ill. Like, there's lots of reasons why somebody could
lose could leave a show, and suddenly you don't have
that character and what and then you're just stuck dealing
with it. And sometimes that's a happy accident, and sometimes
you never recover from it.

Speaker 1 (42:30):
But I so in era that Woman is a classic.
That woman never recover one hundred yea.

Speaker 2 (42:37):
And I'll say this, it's it was not Ja Visa
Leslie's fault who took over, and God bless her for
she was a great bat woman. That show was doomed
from jump.

Speaker 1 (42:46):
To be honest, I don't I'm certain people can yell
on example. I don't know many shows that could survive
the loss of their the lyric one hundred percent yeah
title character.

Speaker 2 (42:56):
So I think it works well when you replace the
function of a character without a carbon copy. So Mash
did a super good job at that. So Wayne Rodgers,
who played Trapper John, who was the best friend of
the lead character Number two Rage, quit the show. They
had to replace him. They needed a new best friend
for Hawkey, so they hired Mike Ferrell to play BJ,

(43:19):
and BJ is his best friend, but he's not remotely
the same character character. He's a much kinder version of
the same characters, a much more loyal version of the
same character. And so both of those characters get to
remain beloved and it looks like the show did a
really clever thing. Arrow in season two really expanded out

(43:42):
Team Marrow. We brought on not only the Triumvirate, but
like Roy joins the team and Sarah joins the team,
and Arrow gets more interesting the more it leaves its
procedural roles behind. And by introducing new characters you give
all of O a completely different function. So then later
on when other characters leave the show, you've left the

(44:03):
door open to be like, oh, okay, Roy's gone, Well
we can bring in Echo Kellum, mister Terrific, who's one
of my favorite characters on the show, who doesn't come
into like halfway through, and he serves a completely different
function than Roy. Roy's the young screw up who needs
to be slapped around and to earn his place, whereas
mister Terrific is smarter than everybody else in the room

(44:24):
and he can challenge Oliver, but he still needs to
learn how to be a great hero. CSI Las Vegas
and season six they said, well, Greg is everyone's favorite character,
but Greg is a recurring character who's the lab rat
who never gets to do any of the fun, exciting stuff,
and he.

Speaker 1 (44:40):
Was probably an actor that everybody liked on set.

Speaker 2 (44:42):
Eric Jamanda I think is his name's Amanda. He was
the young, cute, blonde guy.

Speaker 1 (44:48):
Yeah, he's a laptech guy.

Speaker 2 (44:49):
And then so at the end of season six he
comes to Grissom and he goes, I want to go
out in the field. I know it's a pay decrease,
which nobody in capitalism ever said, but I want to
be because of what happens to Nick. He's like, I
want to be boots on the ground, sure, which is
in the in the world of CSI is a good
enough reason, so they bring him as a CSI text.
So you take him out of the lab, you bring
him to the field, you make him a recurring cast member.

(45:10):
Everyone's excited for three more seasons that he sticks around for,
and that.

Speaker 1 (45:14):
Is I think.

Speaker 2 (45:16):
I think that's a really hard thing because I think
a lot of the stuff I'm talking about is like reactionary.

Speaker 1 (45:20):
But you have to know how to keep your show fresh.

Speaker 2 (45:23):
And new characters or letting characters grow is a way
to make the format seem exciting because you're seeing it
through a new pov.

Speaker 1 (45:30):
Here is adding a new character is a very great
way to make a season film fresh, especially in a
proscetural television show. I actually think a great way that
procedural television shows can stay exciting and fresh is I

(45:50):
think you need to choose. You need to choose what
each season sort of theme and chat. I think you
need to look at it like a book. Uh huh,
so season one is this, season two is this, season
three is this? So that like you will still get
the same feel. But if somebody is watching and they're

(46:12):
a fan, they can watch that episode and immediately be
like that's season three because tonally it's like, my favorite
television show of all time is start at D Space nine. Yes,
it is very easy, yeah to know what season you
are watching.

Speaker 2 (46:30):
To the point where you can even sometimes tell what
arc current.

Speaker 1 (46:33):
Yes, And the reason why that is because Startup T
and G is very episodic. The next generation is very episodic.
A season five episode looks like a season three episode,
looks like a season four episode. Now, a little bit
of the D Space nine stuff is that Cisco's hair changes,
and there are character additions to the show. What if

(46:55):
you follow the show and you follow the story of
the show, how the characters act in each season, even
though again it is still like, well we found this
weird planet, captain, we found this weird alien captain. Oh,
space storm is here, now we're puppets. Oh no, how

(47:16):
the characters act, tell you what season.

Speaker 2 (47:19):
You're in, And I think you can put that in
Space nine specifically. I always think of Julian as being
a really great example of that. But I'm like, well,
you can do with Kiri, you can do with O,
you can do with Quirk, you do with Obviously, Jake
is growing up, so there's a more visual language there, but.

Speaker 1 (47:32):
There is very much like there's sort of like this
is where I would say like D Space nine is
like it's serialized, but yeah, it's it's because season one
of D Space nine is very much like Beijor, We
just gotta put Beaijor together. Bejors in season two is
very much like almost every episode has this, you know,

(47:55):
we think there's this bad guy on the other side
of the wormhole. We don't we don't know who they are,
but but we're scared of them. We're kind of scared.
And then season three is, oh crap, there is a
bad guy. We met them, and we think they're gonna
punch us in the nose. Season four is all about Wharf.
Like Season four is all like Wharf is here and
almost everybody in the station doesn't really know how to

(48:17):
deal with Wharf. Season five is I think we're gonna
get punched in the nose. The bad guys are back. Yeah.
Season six is oh crap, they punched us in the nose.
War were declared? War gonna for We're declared, And then
the final season is just like can we stop the war?

Speaker 2 (48:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:34):
So it's like in almost every episode they have, you
can kind of figure it out pretty.

Speaker 2 (48:40):
Quickly just through context.

Speaker 1 (48:41):
Through context clues like where they are in those arcs,
And I think that is a way because again throughout,
even all the way to season seven, they still had
though we found the weird planet, we found the weird disease.

Speaker 2 (48:51):
Cisco's talking to the prophets, Oh it's a dream, yeah,
Corcus smuggling something.

Speaker 1 (48:56):
But where they were in the arc told that like
person of Interest, does the same thing. Like person of Interest,
it is very easy to tell which season you're in,
specifically on how they talk to the machine.

Speaker 2 (49:09):
Yeah, yeah, wowaus.

Speaker 1 (49:12):
The seasons go on, the machine as it becomes more
aware and more alive, treats them differently, you know what,
and the characters all have to react to that, you know.

Speaker 2 (49:23):
I've been kind of thinking about, which I also think
is a very clear example of this is Batman the
animated series, Yes, and Superman the animated series is the
same way. Justice League, I would say a little bit
less when you and they very much are procedurals. They
do this, they do this, they do this, they solve it.
And there's there's villains who maybe arc for a few episodes,
but you can also tell and we'll we'll take the

(49:45):
animation change aside. You can very much tell which season
the episodes are from.

Speaker 1 (49:50):
Yeah, so interesting. It's another thing too, and this is
maybe this is the reason why they did it Angel,
who I think was Shure run by Sho. I can
look it up for you. I should look at who
the showrunner of Angel was because I know it wasn't
Joss Swhedon for a while. Uh, they kind of did
a really quick shorthand Angel kind of has a different
job in every season.

Speaker 2 (50:10):
The Joss Whedon and David Greenwalts where the showunners for
the first three seasons, and then Jeffrey Bell was the
shehr runner for season four, and then Greenwalt returned.

Speaker 1 (50:21):
In season five. Okay, but but Angel does a really
good job of like Angel is either working a different
job or living in a brand new place in almost
every season. Like it's it's like they specifically were like, Okay,
at the end of the season, he loses his house
and now he's in the hotel, and he's in the
hotel for a couple of seasons, and then the middle
of the season they like lose half the cast, and

(50:42):
then the final season he's working in an office and
you're just like, I guess this is they're working in
an office. Angel season.

Speaker 2 (50:47):
I've never seen a single episode of Angel, and the
idea that he spends several seasons living in hotels very funny.

Speaker 1 (50:51):
He lives in a hotel, he lives in he lives
in a bandoned hotel and.

Speaker 2 (50:54):
An abandon hot Oh no, I was imagined to get
living in like a Best West.

Speaker 1 (50:57):
No, it's in a bandoned hotel.

Speaker 2 (50:59):
Okay, that's the's They do lots of episodes where like, oh,
there's a ghost or there's a person that was murdered
in the room or whatever, you know, and it allows
him to do it allows him to do a lot
of daytime scenes where he's far away from windows. Yeah yeah,
but Angels evampire But that's another thing.

Speaker 1 (51:14):
So I think you have to I think you have
to make an intentional choice to slightly change the world
of your characters so that way, because you're not going
to change the pattern of like say it's a medical
mystery patient comes in, we talk to them. Oh no,
they get worse, We solve them. Yeah, you can't because
that is the comfort food, right.

Speaker 2 (51:35):
And if you're going to if you're going to have
them to continue the medical thing for a second. If
you're going to have them either not solve the problem
or maybe have the patient die, you have to do
I think minimum three seasons of success. Yeah, before you
can even consider exploring narratively, what does a failure look like?

Speaker 1 (51:53):
Yeah, I think you could do it. No sooner than that,
but I you know it's but yes, But but those
little like there's a crime, the cops search, rearrest them. Yeah, Like,
you can't change that, but you can change literally Like.
It's one of the reasons why I think Law and
Order is so successful because it's always about It's always
about there's a crime, the cops catch him by the
thirty minute mark and the t and then it's the trial,

(52:16):
and the lawyers change and the cops change. So how
the cops investigate the crime changes with every new cast,
how the lawyers prosecute the crime changes with every guess I.

Speaker 2 (52:26):
Know, And then in a really exciting episode, you might
cross the people from the back end.

Speaker 1 (52:30):
Might be in the front end.

Speaker 2 (52:31):
Peop from the front of the back end.

Speaker 1 (52:32):
We've not mentioned this ut but er created by Michael Krisch,
one of the most successful procedurals of all time medical show.

Speaker 2 (52:39):
My mother loved it.

Speaker 1 (52:40):
Yeah, and again it was always about oh no, there's
a new thing coming into the ear and they're gonna die.
It's that pump their you know, Oh my god, we
got you know, get the paddles out, dude, you know,
here comes the amulance. Oh no. But the thing that
made Er fresh was they had characters grow up and
leave the hospital.

Speaker 2 (52:59):
And grades anatomies, like we're gonna hold in the Meredith
until the end of her lifetime. And then actually, I
just because I do know that Gray's anatomy did bring
in a whole new younger.

Speaker 1 (53:08):
But that was how they kept it first. Or they
had new doctors come into the hospital and everybody's like,
I don't like this new guy. Or they would have
new bosses like so it was always about like, well,
the er and the insanity of like all right, here
comes another It's always going to be like that. That's
how it is. Like somebody's almost gonna die, put a
tube down his throat, oh quick, you know, that's never
gonna change. But like how the characters.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
Who are and how they do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Like a Er also did a really good job of
like every season there is like either a character has
left or a character has joined. Yeah, so you it's
very like it's very easy to tell, Like like I
can tell you if a show of R I could
watch even now, I could watch an episode of VR

(53:52):
and I could tell you whether it's in the first
three seasons simply by George Clooney's haircut. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:57):
And also George Cline was only the first three seasons
the show. Yeah, you know, so like that's another thing, right,
and then Juliana Marghlez and then Anthony Edwards and then
Noah Noah Wiley as well. Like based on how those
characters look and how they act would tell me immediately.
I'll be like, oh that season five.

Speaker 2 (54:15):
It's funny too, when you start watching those shows when
you're a young person and you come in on a
second or third or fourth generation, it really messes with
the timeline I thought. With Law and Order, the Jesse L.
Martin cast was the original cast.

Speaker 1 (54:29):
Oh yeah, I remember by like two or three.

Speaker 2 (54:31):
I remember my uncle being like, no, you're wrong, and
I was like, no, that's the original cast, and he
was like no.

Speaker 1 (54:36):
It's not.

Speaker 2 (54:37):
He's like you stupid kids like you are eighteen years old.

Speaker 1 (54:41):
Yeah, yeah, but you know I have a couple, uh
you call it the final ask, final ask, the final ask.
I have a couple of final asks for you, because
he might say a couple of them really fast. So
I don't know. I want to ask you, where do
you think procedurals have a place in the future of
streaming television, where or serialized storytelling is way more common.

Speaker 2 (55:04):
I mean, I think they have a I think they have.

Speaker 1 (55:08):
A place period. I mean, I'll into this question real
que I don't think theyre gowing anywhere. Yeah, and I
think we'll still have streaming procedurals.

Speaker 2 (55:15):
And again, and I'm not saying that there's never been
a boring procedural, but I think to blanket dismiss the
whole genre is boring, is it's dumb. Don't do that,
especially if you think you've never watched a procedural. I
invite you to open your eyes a little bit.

Speaker 1 (55:29):
Definitely, I think I think they have a.

Speaker 2 (55:34):
Place in I think procedurals are gonna have a foot
in the past and the future. I think we're always
gonna have doctor shows, We're always gonna have lawyer shows,
We're always gonna have cop shows where by the end
of the episode, everything is gonna be fine, and we're
gonna Simpson's reset at the beginning of the next episode,
because I think you're always going to have people who
want that m HM and every generation, and you might

(55:56):
dress it up a little bit differently, and maybe Barry Allen,
who runs really fast as the lead this one.

Speaker 1 (56:00):
But it's a cop show.

Speaker 2 (56:02):
But I also think I think the best procedurals are
gonna be the ones that continue to evolve and push
the genre and make it so that when Jason and
I revisit this conversation in ten years, we're not arguing
about twin peaks. We're arguing about a different show. Is
it a procedural or not? And I think to be
really a cold and calculating and in the show business

(56:24):
of it all, procedurals are going to be an important
quarter son of a business plan because they're generally fairly
affordable to produce, that's so cheap to make, and they
are popular.

Speaker 1 (56:34):
They do views, they do do views.

Speaker 2 (56:36):
So I think they're here. I think they're here till
the end of television in some way, shape or for now.

Speaker 1 (56:42):
Here's the follow up. Final ask yeah, what procedural television
show do you think is the best? Let's take Law
and Order off the table.

Speaker 2 (56:53):
I would not have picked a Law in Order, But
let's say, what.

Speaker 1 (56:55):
Do you think is the television show that is actually
a really great show but also a really great example
of a procedural television show.

Speaker 2 (57:05):
My gut is just to go see us I it
really really is.

Speaker 1 (57:09):
But that's not a good answer.

Speaker 2 (57:11):
But I think I'll say this. I think most procedurals
run too long, and I think most procedurals inevitably fall
off at the end. I also think, if you're looking
if I'm taking my taste out of it, if I'm
looking at the coldly historical view of it, I think

(57:33):
it'd be foolish not to put R in contention as well.
And I'm I don't love an er type medical show
where everyone's bleeding all over the place all the time,
and that's the whole gag of it. That's why I
liked House so much, is like House. House had a
gross moments, but it was it was a more intellectual

(57:54):
exercise in how we were approaching it. But I think
I think to ignore or Er would be foolish of me.

Speaker 1 (58:01):
But I think I'm gonna need York. I'm just gonna
go CSI. I'm sorry, just I really like I think CSI.
I think CSI is a really solid answer. I mean,
it's it's a I think it's a really really solid answer.

Speaker 2 (58:13):
Is there anything else that you want to proffer up
as as maybe not a perfect but a very good example.

Speaker 1 (58:19):
I mean, I'm glad you brought up X files.

Speaker 2 (58:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:24):
X files is a great procedure to hold the show
Elementary is a great procedural television show. Which thinks about
NYPD Blue is a great procedural television show.

Speaker 2 (58:32):
What about your beloved homicide Life on the Street, We'll
see that is not a procedural.

Speaker 1 (58:38):
Yes, it is, That is my answer.

Speaker 2 (58:41):
Ah, I've never seen it, which Sid didn't.

Speaker 1 (58:44):
Well, it's it's funny because we're now at the point
with and for the first time ever, homicide is now
finally streaming and streaming on Peacock for the first time.

Speaker 2 (58:51):
I know, if you go and listen to old JHL,
Jason brings it up and it's like, I can't believe
it's not sure.

Speaker 1 (58:55):
They had a lot of rights issues. I've stayed away
from it because it was a show of the late
eighties and early nineties, and I'm a little worried that
it might have aged.

Speaker 2 (59:08):
There's gonna be there, look age there much, there's gonna
be stuff where you're gonna be like, oh no, my
modern sensibility.

Speaker 1 (59:15):
But you know, it's one of these things where like
because I know homicide birth really, I really think Homicide
is the true birthplace of this serialized procedural mix. Really,
I do. I do, because the successor of Homicide, Life

(59:38):
in the Street is one of the greatest televisionhows of
all time. The Wire.

Speaker 2 (59:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, The Wire is the Wire procedural not
really no, because I know, I know, I've also never
seen The Wire. I know that they have season long
arc so I know one season's The Docs and one season.

Speaker 1 (59:55):
Schools they do. But the but the the Wire is
not ever really about solving a case except for season
one and they like get and it's.

Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
More about like exploring the morality, right.

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
Yeah, and then season two is just basically like, look
at all these people in the system, and then that's
what the show is for the rest of the time.
Homicide is like that. Homicide is like there is a
case every week. There is no season long arc, but
it's very much like Er, where it's like cops come
and go and a lot of homicides. Storylines, especially their

(01:00:31):
over long storylines, are very much about like certain characters
thinking to themselves, Wow, this is rough. I don't think
I could be a cop anymore. Yeah, And so they
wash out of the system because of that, and it changes.
There's a couple characters that get changed by the system,

(01:00:53):
Like there's a couple characters that become meaner. Yeah, and
so like I. But even though there is because it
was a show on NBC for like ten years, it
was like, here is the criminal of the week. Here's
the criminal the week. Here's the criminal of the week.

Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
Come because I've had a second to think, can I
can I add one more procedural? Yeah, of course to
my list?

Speaker 1 (01:01:11):
No, I cannot.

Speaker 2 (01:01:13):
I want to add uh BBC Sherlock.

Speaker 1 (01:01:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:20):
It's because there's a there's a case of the episode.
Every single episode they're all rushing toward serving the final episode.
But ultimately, like you brought up Elementary before, there's a
case of the episode and spoilers like every Sholock homes are,
they solve it at the end of every episode.

Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
The BBC show that I saw on a lot of lists, Yeah,
was actually Luther. Oh how did I know? Much more
classical because even though there is a serialized like there's
the Alice story, every new episode, he has a new case.
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, and usually his cases are solved
by the end of the episode.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
Yeah. And his powers are like he has super cop
power basically. Yeah, Luther's a great example.

Speaker 1 (01:02:00):
Yeah, Like Luther was the British one that I kept
seeing multiple time. Yeah, good one. But I don't know.
For me, I would have to say, if you want
to ask me, like, what do I think is the
best because it's and I think it's because it has
its toe homicide. Life in the Street has its toes
in both worlds. Yeah, and I think it does both
really well. Like I think it's a really good serialize
show and it's a really good procedural well.

Speaker 2 (01:02:20):
And as I think we've discovered through a lot of
these discussions this year, everything is a mix of both.

Speaker 1 (01:02:25):
Yeah. But I think if if if you were to say,
what is the objectionable.

Speaker 2 (01:02:30):
Best non objectionable objective objective objectionable.

Speaker 1 (01:02:35):
The brain, I think it is Law and Order. Yeah, Colon, Oh,
special Victims United. It's interesting because, uh yeah, I don't sequel,
I think has surpassed the original.

Speaker 2 (01:02:50):
I don't love Law and Order just personally. I've never
I've watched a ton of bit I've just never really
loved everybody on Earth probably, but well we've all been
in hotel worms. I think being coldly detached and just
trying to objectively look at the expanse of procedural television would.

Speaker 1 (01:03:09):
Say Order as the franchise.

Speaker 2 (01:03:10):
Yeah, yeah, I think it's I think you're probably right,
yeah yeah, but yeah it is.

Speaker 1 (01:03:17):
It's funny long Order is good when it's good, and
it's also it falls into all the traps that we
talk about.

Speaker 2 (01:03:24):
When it's a slog. When it's a slog, for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
It's good. So yeah, So there you go, everybody, procedural
television show. And if you want to watch a really
good procedural television show, don't forget Watson, airing on Sundays
on CBS and Paramount Plus six pm Pacific time, eight
pm Central Time. There's an episode every single week starting
February sixteenth. I think just go watch it. It's awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:03:47):
I mean, Morris Chestnuts that it literally what else could
you want.

Speaker 1 (01:03:49):
More's just nuts. He's so good. He is so good
as Bobon I'm not even gonna watch those trailers. He
is a delight. Uh, don't forget everybody. You can find
us in the podcast everywhere. Actually where could they find
Kissory Lesson? Everywhere around the woods and the worlds if
they were procedurally searching for you.

Speaker 2 (01:04:05):
You can find us stalking through the woods and you
can offer just sit down and watch our favorite procedural
television shows. Well, of course, but everywhere else you can
find us.

Speaker 1 (01:04:13):
I brought my DVDs.

Speaker 2 (01:04:15):
Did you find a working DVD player?

Speaker 1 (01:04:16):
Yeah, we have one.

Speaker 2 (01:04:17):
You can find us everywhere online at geek History Lesson
and look, I know Jason and I just scratched the
service and we really let our own taste, know, but
if you have a favor procedural television that we did
and mention, please come and respectfully share it with.

Speaker 1 (01:04:30):
Look, all the NCIS stands are coming for us. There's
a million of them, right.

Speaker 2 (01:04:34):
Jason and I have just never we tried really hard
to only speak about the shows that we have watched.

Speaker 1 (01:04:39):
I'm gonna throw one out there, Doctor Quinn, Medicine Woman, Baby.

Speaker 2 (01:04:41):
Oh Man, Doctor Quinn Medicine.

Speaker 1 (01:04:43):
Everybody forgot about the old Jane Seymour, but I didn't. Yeah,
he's also a bond girl.

Speaker 2 (01:04:48):
She has a bond girl.

Speaker 1 (01:04:49):
Yeah, let's get into the honor roll, Ashley, Ashley, what's that?
The honor roll is?

Speaker 2 (01:04:54):
If you give us a five star review on Apple podcast,
we will read whatever you want. If you're an international friend,
we cannot see your nice international Apple podcast. Please take
a screenshot of it. Email it to Geek hissrel listen
at gmail dot com, and uh, let us know where
you're from.

Speaker 1 (01:05:08):
By the way, Ashley, I forgot to mention that I
actually have an honor roll already. Oh phenomenal, because somebody
emailed it just that well, they're not an international listener,
but they did email us and sort of give us
a five star review just in an email for him,
which I thought was very nice.

Speaker 2 (01:05:21):
Great, like the one we read from Instagram. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05:23):
Yeah, so this is a shout out to Ethan Reese,
who has it sent us a very very kind moment.
He has a fantastic podcast called Daily Sports History. Ethan
emailed us, oh, we're like companion podcasts, and he kind
of gave us a five star review. On his podcast,
so he gave us a nice little shout out. We
appreciate the support, you know. So he said that he

(01:05:44):
was like, we got very similar podcasts. So his is
about uncovering the stories of iconic moments in sports. So
thank you Ethan for the love and for joining the
honor roll. So keep up the good, right, and go
check out his podcast, Daily Sports History.

Speaker 2 (01:05:54):
Heck yeah, yeah, get the best of the sports and
get the best of the geeks.

Speaker 1 (01:05:58):
Listen and then listen to the boat then the same time. Now, Actually,
if I was a small city detective with a magnifying glass,
you know, maybe in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and I was looking
for your social media, where would I go?

Speaker 2 (01:06:10):
You could find me. Okay, you can find me in
the woods touching your grass, or you can find me
on my social media's at Ashley V. Robinson. Truly on
any platform at this point, because I don't know which
one is going to win the social media wars.

Speaker 1 (01:06:22):
And if you're looking at the splatter patterns and the
bullet residue around my social media, you'd find me at
Jason Inman on Blue Sky or jaw one jwi in
over at Instagram and threads, and now it's finally time
for what have we learned today? Well, we've learned procedurals
are the comfort food of TV. They're pretictable, satisfying, and

(01:06:43):
always need, always there when you need them, like pizza.
They also come in all flavors, whether it's solving murders
and criminal minds, diagnosing diseases like house or time hopping
through history. There's a procedural for everyone. So when done right,
they're timeless, and when done wrong, they're just background noise.
Will you scroll on your phone?

Speaker 2 (01:07:06):
Yes, well said Jason, damn the furious typing.

Speaker 1 (01:07:16):
Thanks everybody, listen to chust Lesson. We promise that we'll
do the sound effects better. We still need a sound
effect for what we have learned, so email that geek
history Lesson at gmail dot com. But thank you all
for listening. I'm Jason in this, I'm.

Speaker 2 (01:07:27):
Ashay, Victoria Robinson and Professor Jason. Would you please dismiss
the class book?

Speaker 1 (01:07:31):
Him Dan O