Kinfolklore: Stranger Things Sn.1 (Chapters 5-8)

Episode Transcript
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(00:09):
Welcome back to Kinfolklore.We're staying in Hawkins, Indiana
in the fall of 1983, whereChristmas lights aren't just decorations,
the kids aren't just playingDungeons and Dragons, and the line
between our world and theother grows thinner by the minute.

(00:30):
I'm Andrea.
And I'm Paul. And these laterchapters of Stranger Things ramp
up the tension. Friendshipsfracture, Hopper gets closer to the
truth, investigatory skills onfleek, Nancy and Jonathan team up,
and 11 has to face both herpast and the monster.
Today we're covering seasonone, chapters five through eight,

(00:53):
the back half of the seasonwhere everyone comes together in
the most terrifying climax.This season is legitimately scary.
Legitimately.
No question.
If you haven't seen up tochapter eight, pause this binge.
Cuz again, we are a spoilerpodcast, so really you should be
watching the whole thing.

(01:15):
And why haven't you seen up toany of these? It's season one, damn
it.
Like, I know it's been nineyears, but anyway, we're not here
to judge you. Yes, if youhaven't continued on your binge through
chapter eight, then pause,come back later, will be here and
just regular spoiler warning.This is not spoiler free. We will

(01:36):
be talking about all ofStranger Things up to this point,
with the exception of any ofthese sort of additional pieces like
the play Stranger Things, thefirst Shadow, any of the books, I
totally forgot last episodethat there are books of Stranger
Things. We will not be talkingabout sort of the sub canon pieces.

(01:57):
We will at some point do amini chapter on the first Shadow.
Now.
You know, nothing says smalltown love triangle like having to
choose between the guy whotook creepy photos of you and the
guy who's here. Did not getthe memo that grease was a 1950s
movie. But alas, NancyWheeler's doing the best of what

(02:18):
she's got. Just like her mom,always going to get a shot of her
dad.
Is Ted just going to take astray in every single episode?
Every single time? Every time.So if you're here for Nancy and Jonathan's
transition from awkwardmonster hunters to even more awkward
teenagers discovering thatthey have feelings for each other,

(02:39):
you have come to the rightplace. Let's go.
Or Ted.
Ted deserves it. He's kind ofjust like checked out on everything.
Anyway, the flea, the acrobatand the monster is what we're going
to cover first. So episodesfive through six, the mystery of
Hawkins start to crystallizein this. In these episodes, Mr. Clark's

(03:00):
acrobat and the Flea lessongives the Boys a framework for understanding
the Upside Down. But theirhunt with their compasses only deepens
the rift between Lucas andeverybody. Everybody, really. He's.
Lucas is beefing with everybody.
Yo, Lucas is on 10. When Iwent back and watched this season,
I was just like, yo, why isLucas so angry? It's like he's already.

(03:21):
But you know what, there'ssome things that he says that we'll
discuss later. Makes youthink. As I've progressed throughout
the other seasons, I'm like,okay, maybe he.
Maybe this is. There's areason why he brought up some of
these things.
Anyway, he just. He mistrustsElle. Like, let's just be honest.
And Mike, who is vehementlydefending her, he's getting irritated

(03:42):
with Mike too. But Hoppersneaks into the lab and uncovers
proof of a cover up. This guyis like, you know, he's already discovered
that the body had cottonstuffed. He's very suspicious. His
investigatory skills shouldhave been not just a local cop. Sounds
like he has some skills thatgo beyond that. Maybe even FBI, CIA.

(04:03):
We'll discuss that later on.Who knows? He is an international
man of mystery.
Let'S put it that way.
So he's finding proof of acover up and wakes up drugged and
shaken up. Meanwhile, Nancyand Jonathan begin investigating
together. Their partnership issealed when Nancy stumbles into the

(04:24):
Upside Down. This was the factthat upon my rewatch I had forgotten
that Nancy, other than Will,is actually the first person.
To travel into the Upside Down.
Dumbest moment of the wholeseries. I don't understand why she
did that. But also againsolidifies that Nancy is truly brave.
This is like a small townsuburban girl who has been sheltered

(04:47):
her whole life. She's verybrave. And we see more of that in
season season two. Butunbelievably willing to step up.
Yeah. And barely escapes withher life. Like barely. Like by the.
Just barely. Like theDemogorgon spotting her coming after
her. It was crazy. Eleven'smemories reveal the terrible truth.

(05:08):
Touching the creature in thevoid opened the gate. And that she
carries the guilt of openingthe gate. And that's kind of. I mean
it was interesting on that.
Walk over to the lab to wherethey were going. Her kind of trying
to divert them from the pathbecause she knows like hey.
Where they're heading towards.And Joyce and Hopper seek out Terry
Ives, Elle's mom, dismissed asunstable after losing her baby at

(05:33):
the lab. They're wanting tofind out more about.
Her origins and who she is.
The episode crescendos at theQuarry, when the bullies corner Mike
and Dustin, until Elle comesin and wrecks these bullies. I mean,
saving them is.
Can we just talk about howmean this was, though? Like, they

(05:54):
deserved it. They deserved it.No doubt.
Yeah, no question.
But homeboy Peed himself
Like, she had him freeze. Shecould have done worse, though. We
see Elle, like, Merc, people,like, out. So she could have done
a lot worse. And she savesMike's life. Like Mike. They actually
were going to make Mike jumpand kill himself, essentially. He

(06:15):
would have died. Right? So. Sogood thing she does step up and she's
proving how. How fiercelyshe'll fight for her new friends,
which is amazing.
Like, she's a. She's a ride ordie for sure. Until.
Until a friend lies.
Then, you know, we'll get tothat, though.
So chapter seven and eight,The Bathtub and the Upside Down.
This is like the epicconclusion of a very good first season.

(06:39):
This is. This is probablyStranger Things Titus season that.
I mean, it sets the tone for.
Everything that follows, right?
Like, everybody falls in lovewith the.
Series based on this season,including ourselves, so it's great.
So Dustin charms Mr. Clarkinto explaining sensory deprivation.
I think this is where he sayshe's going on, like, a curiosity

(07:02):
odyssey, something like that.It's very funny. The kids essentially
stage a heist to build a tankin the middle of the school. Sure,
why not? Whatever. They're inmiddle school. Elle dives into the
void, finding Barb dead. We'vealready said our goodbyes to Barb

(07:23):
in the previous episode, butthis is where it becomes official.
But Will is still alive at thesame time. And this never. I never
quite understood the groupsplitting up like this. You got literal
children, literal childrendoing one thing. You've got Joyce

(07:43):
and Hopper, the adults doingsomething else. And then the teenagers
are over at the Byersresidence preparing weapons to face
the Demogorgon.
I don't understand it either.I. I don't. I don't get it. It threw
me off, Ed.
I. Just to circle back a bit,Mr. Clark, basically, in the 80s

(08:04):
version of Netflix and chillon a hot date, sitting on the couch
just to get interrupted byDustin, like, was hilarious. Like.
Like, like, why are you. Ithink what he said you were talking
about was you. You talk aboutlike. Like doors locking for the.
For. For a.
For a knowledge journey.
Why are you keeping this doorlocked for me? Or something. Like,

(08:24):
it was hilarious. I was like,bro, because Mr. Clark wants nothing
to do with this. He's like,literally on a couch chilling with
a Girl like, what are youdoing anyway? But I find it funny.
I think the whole thing iscrazy. The plan feels crazy. It feels
as chaotic as you would expecta plan, though, from teenagers. But
I just don't understand what the.
Adults are thinking in this situation.

(08:45):
Like, everyone is off doingtheir own thing. It's. Yeah, I get
it. But works because of whatwe get from it. But just in terms
of logic questions about thisplan. So Nancy and Jonathan are set
a trap for the Demogorgon. Andthen Steve shows up to apologize.

(09:07):
Not to Nancy, but to Jonathan.But Nancy happens to be there. Awkward.
Super awkward.
Yeah. Very, very, very awkward.
At the school, the kids arecornered until Elle confronts the
Demogorgon, sacrificingherself to destroy it. Hawkins seems
safe for now, but things don'tstay calm for long. Will coughs up

(09:32):
a slug, and Hopper seems toknow that Elle has survived this
sacrifice because he's leavingEggos in the woods. Her one true
love. The only thing thatmight lure her out of her hiding
space.
Let go. Let go. My ego. Hey,my question is the. They had to have

(09:53):
known they were.
Getting a second season whenthey ended like this.
They had to have.
Yeah, I think there's a lot. Ithink they knew. I'm guessing in
like the testing and as theexecutives looked at it, they. There's
a lot of decisions that itfelt like they must have known because
one like. And I haven't readan article about this in a while,
so I don't remember exactlythe circumstances, but like, Steve

(10:15):
was supposed to die.
Yeah.
In season one. And I can'tremember if it's. They liked the.
The character so much thatthey decided to give him a redemption
arc or if like that first,that pilot episode that, you know,
he was so well received. Idon't really remember the circumstances.
Don't quote me on it. Butlike, they made some decisions. It

(10:37):
was clear they were setting upfor another season. But it is. And
we can talk about this morelater, but that they're clearly retconning
a few things. Right. Becauseit. As we said in our first episode
covering episodes, chaptersone through. Through four, this was
supposed to be an anthologyseason. So maybe Elle was supposed

(10:58):
to be that character thatshowed up in other stories and maybe
we were. This was supposed tobe just like this was the Hawkins
Indiana story and the next onewould have been, I don't know, New
York City or something. AndElle would have popped up there.
Something about her. But seemslike they knew they were getting

(11:19):
a second season at this point.
I'M glad. I'm glad they didn'tgo that route.
Honestly. Like, this. Thisfeels like better just go on a journey
with a whole group of peopleand continue on that journey throughout
it all, you know?
Yeah. So we should do ourlittle poor one out. Even though
I don't particularly care forthe characters that died.
Oh, the random governmentagents. Are we talking about the.
The government agents is whoReport. All right, let's do it. All

(11:39):
right, let's pour one out forthe random government agents that
died and the Demogorgon.
Listen, he's our first. I'mcalling him Demi. He's our first.
All our fallen homies, yo.Don't let the change get respect,

(12:05):
though.
He made this whole story.Story happen.
I mean, we. Yeah, but we couldhave waited for the actual. For the
other Demogorgon. We'll get toit. Season two. Like, I mean, that
Demogorgon has an actual bondwith. With the team.
You know what I mean?
Like, even though. No, no, no.Okay. I'm. I feel like we're gonna
have different opinions aboutDart. We'll talk about Darton Season

(12:28):
2, but absolutely not. Absolutely.
So you love your. Your team,Demi over Dart.
Listen, dummy, in my opinion,dummy, Demi's right here in my background.
Demi was just hungry. Youknow, he's just. He's just trying.
He's trying to feed thathunger. I feel like he's mostly misunderstood.

(12:52):
Like, if they had left himsome meat, you know, maybe things
would have done. Gonedifferently, but, you know, I. I
don't know.
Ate Barbara. He ate Barb.
That's tough stuff. That'stough stuff. Tough, tough stuff.
Okay, listen, I'm not sayinghe's my friend. I'm just saying we

(13:13):
should acknowledge he was.
Acknowledged that he was ourfirst. He was the first. He was the
first. Okay. First Demogorgon.Let us know what's going on. So,
speaking of monsters, though,Lucas has an interesting take about
living.
Mm.
He. He says, did you ever stopto think that maybe she's the monster?
Like, she's the. The.
And it's a question that Ithink will come up multiple times.

(13:36):
We love Elle, but at the sametime, her powers and. And the fact
that she's the impetus for allof this happening. And she herself
says, I'm the monster. I'm themonster. Later on, like, in when
she saves. Saves Mike. Mike islike, no, you're not. And he, like,
refuses to see it, but she'sacknowledging that she has played
a part in all of this.

(13:57):
And what's transpiring thatshe does have some.
Some responsibility in howthis is all started.
I think that we learn Ellewants to be good, but she's been
trained as, like, a weapon,and she has a hard time regulating
her emotions, and she's donesome horrible things up to this point.

(14:18):
Right. But we'll see her dosome questionable things later. I
know. When we get to seasontwo, we'll talk more about, you know,
the notorious episode. I thinkthat's. That's chapter seven, where
she meets Kali, her sister,but they do some bad stuff. Right.
And then season four, for me,the most shocking moment of the whole

(14:41):
season was her clock in OldGirl with the roller skate. Elle
sometimes loses that, and herpowers could be. Can be used as a
weapon. They can be used forbad. And it's something she has to
grapple with. And again inseason two. So we'll talk more about
this when it happens, but wesee when her and Hopper have disagreements,

(15:05):
how quickly it escalates toessentially, violence. Imagine if
Hopper is the one throwingstuff at Elle. Like, it kind of gets
played as, like, not that bigof a deal because she's the child,
he's the adult. He has thepower and that dynamic. But Elle
routinely takes out adults.So, yeah, I think it's definitely

(15:27):
foreshadowing for the rest ofElle's arc, which is. And. And to
this day, the fan community isstill not sure if El is a superhero
or are we watching an. Or avillain origin story? Yeah, I tend
to think that Ella is acomplicated character. I think we
can. I think we can have twoheroes of the story. That. That discussion

(15:47):
tends to be like, is Will thehero or is Elle the hero? I think
they can both be heroes. Ithink there's a lot of heroes in
this group. I think Nancy andJonathan are heroes. Joyce and Hopper
are heroes. Dustin is a hero.Steve is definitely a hero. Not everyone
has to play villain, hero, orvictim. They're all the. These are

(16:08):
the hero of the. Our overallstory. So I can't.
I tend to think, though, that,like, one of the things I was thinking.
About, as we've talked aboutbefore and then, like, talking about
it now is I kind of feel thatwe often frame it where El is the
stronger one, so she's comingto save the rest of them. Like, she
will be able to fight the, youknow, the Demogorgons in this case

(16:32):
and later on the Mind Flayerand later on Vecna.
But there's a part of me thatstarted as reflected watching the
season is that.
And Reflecting in the contextof this question is, is she the monster
is thinking, well, theirhumanity and their. Their lived experience
as a community is actuallyalso saving her. It's actually making

(16:53):
her less of a killer, of aweapon, of a.
She's becoming more of like them.
And so there's like. There'slike this thing that I think we.
We often just think, well, she has.
Power, so she's the one that'ssaving them. But their humanity is
doing the same and reflectingback to Elle. And I find that to
be beautiful.
This is absolutely a groupproject. This is. Elle on her own,

(17:13):
would not have been able to doall of this. And, you know, we'll
talk more about Joyce andTerry and motherhood in this part
of the story, but I don't eventhink El could have found Will and
Barb without Joyce making surethat Elle felt safe to go into the

(17:37):
void. I. I think that this isall a group project. And as much
as I give Mike Wheeler a hardtime, and I actually think Mike just
gets. Mike gets worse as you.The longer you watch the series,
the worst Mike gets. AlthoughMike has season two is peak Mike,

(17:58):
I think he. He's so good inseason two, but Mike is. We talked
about, like, the music being atether. Mike is kind of Elle and
Will's tether to thiscommunity. He has is El's tethered
to her humanity. He's notalone in that. Hopper plays a similar
role, but he. His beingwilling to stand up for both her

(18:25):
and Will constantly is one ofthe things that gives her the resolve
to go forward. It's the reasonthat she makes this sacrifice. Right?
She don't know these people.She has met the. It's been a week.
Like, that's the funny thingabout this first season. It feels
so pivotal. And we watch allthese friendships form and we watch
all these bonds reallysolidify, but it's only been a week.

(18:48):
It's crazy. It's crazy whenyou think about it in that context.
And it's also. I think it'salso crazy to just.
Think about how all of these characters.
Like, fall into roles, like,fall into.
Roles that end up serving theway that they're seen throughout
the rest of the series.

(19:09):
And what I'm thinking aboutwhen you.
Were talking about Mike is I'mthinking about the Wheelers in general.
Like, Mike is kind of in thistug pull between what we would call,
like, maybe the main twoprotagonists. When you think about,
you know, Will and you thinkabout El.
But I also think that Nancy, it's.
Fascinating that she's also inthis tug pull between Steve and Jonathan

(19:33):
in this. In this particular season.
And kind of seeing how theWheeler children, they have, like,
this kind of.
Like, they're like, thenucleus of this whole thing.
And Mike, for that group offriends. And also Nancy, when you
start thinking about how itplays out for her, that without Nancy,
they would all just befighting the actual Hopper and them

(19:56):
would be fighting the spy,doing spy.
Capers, and the kids would befighting the monsters.
And, like, oh, we know all thelore and the mythology. But Nancy
has this real knack, I think,of getting to the investigation of
what's happening. Like, whatis the cause, what's the.
Origin of all this?
Her investigation skills aregonna come in.

(20:17):
Handy for the group over andover and over again.
And there's a real bravery toher that I find just really captivating
throughout this whole show.
To me, she's one of the.
To me, she's one of my favorite.
Characters, and she's one ofthe strongest characters.
I love Nancy Wheeler. I have afunko pop of Nancy Wheeler that I
got as a gift. I love. I thinkshe's. She's great. The Wheeler kids

(20:40):
are great. You know, I. Eventhough I don't like Mike, listen.
Karen Wheeler, because I don'tbelieve Ted had anything to do with
this. She raised some of themost fiercely loyal and incredibly
brave people in Hawkins,period. Nancy, isn't she. She does.

(21:02):
She's like a dog with a bone.She does not let this Barb thing
get away from her. So I thinkthat that's an incredibly important
thing to remember, is thatevery single member. El's one of
the powers, right?
Yeah.
But every single member ofthis group plays a role, even down
to Steve, who I guess Steve'srole is to be the one who puts himself

(21:28):
in front of danger. Right. Andwe see that first here in this scene
at the end of the series wherehe shows up to apologize to Jonathan
because he's thought aboutwhat a he's been. And then the Demogorgon
shows up, and Steve is like,I'm not leaving. Like, I got. I got

(21:49):
y'. All. I'm not gonna let youfight this monster alone. If that
were me, I don't know what y'all summoned. I don't.
But that him going off on hisown, I think there's some safety
in.
That, too, because him goingoff on his own, he might have got
just.
Murked out in the middle ofthe night. That would have been it.
That's a good Point. That's fair.
Stay in the numbers. Like, youknow, like, hey, let's go. Oh, man.

(22:12):
And I think, you know, anotherperson who plays a pivotal role is
Mr. Clark. I think constantly.
I love that they just. Theyjust make Mr. Clark, at least in
the first two seasons, maybeeven the third. The third. He. Oh,
yeah, no, he's. He's the onewho tells Joyce about the magnets
in that they're. He's just aconstant beacon of information.

(22:33):
Right, right.
And that. And. And that he. Hecreated a space that they trust him
because it's a space that theycan go to from the radio to all.
All the knowledge that theygain from him. And I love his ability
to talk to them aboutalternate dimensions using, you know,
like, really looking at howyou could draw, like it. Using a
tightrope and an acrobat andhow it looks.

(22:56):
And it helped. I think ithelps the viewer. It helped me to
be able to not think of it as,like. It was interesting because
I normally, when.
I thought about alternatedimension, we think about the multiverse
and other things we've seen.
I think about it almost as,like, parallel worlds where think
the exact same.
Thing is happening, but indifferent ways because it's a different

(23:16):
reality.
He kind of by. By describingit as a tightrope and.
Then showing that the acrobatcan only move forward or backwards,
one straight path.
It kind of reset myunderstanding of how parallel worlds
work in this world.
Versus, like, multiverses, theway we've often heard. And I love
how he's able to do that andalso help us as an audience.

(23:38):
Yeah. I also came back to thiswith kind of my Loki understanding
of the multiverse and thetimelines. And Marvel has really
been the space where we thinkabout multiverses. Right. And even
though this came out first andso. Well, not came out first, but

(24:01):
like, the. The idea ofdifferent dimensions was used in
this story before we reallygot into the multiverse in the mcu.
I love this explanation.Right. So, like, in this, he's talking
to the kids. Well, they're theacrobats. Right. They can only move

(24:21):
forward. But the Demogorgon orElle a little bit, because El can
only psychically visit otherplaces. Right. She can't physically,
but the Demogorgon is able tokind of weave in and out. And I think
that's how we're supposed tounderstand Vecna, that he is able

(24:42):
to weave in and out of maybeeven time. I'm not sure that Vecna
can't move in and out of timeas well. That's a whole other. We
can we get to that season?
I mean, we. The clock is sucha central part of it, and we hear
the clock. I did not get theclock in season one until I went
back and rewatched. You hearthe clock when he's showing. You

(25:03):
hear it early. Like, it'slike, whoa.
The clock is definitely in thescene where Will goes missing.
Yeah.
Which I did not notice evenupon my first re watch. It was my
third go with that episodethat I. I was like, oh, that's the
clock. And I think that'sbecause I had list. I had watched

(25:23):
the first few episodes re.Watched the first few episodes of
season four, and I was back inthat space. So I love this idea.
I think this is going to comeback as well. I think that when they
draw from season. From earlierseasons to. To build this last season

(25:44):
5, my guess is we're going tosee a lot of callbacks to the OG
I think in terms of MagicalRules, season two is the most important
season. But in terms of, like,the things that call us back, we're
going to see so much of season one.
Yeah. I would agree.
So.
So I would.
So let's talk about chapter six.

(26:06):
And we've been talking a lot about.
Chapter five, and we mentionedearlier, so L. In the.
In the summary. So L admits tocreating the gate.
Right. So what do you think?Like, what do you think the.
The ramifications of that are,like, as to, like.

(26:26):
I mean, we find out later on.
Obviously, in four, what thecircumstances were around her closing
the gate, why she did it, whatwas happening at the moment when
it happened.
But why do you think that it's.
So important about her close,like, opening the gate and also eventually
having to close it?
I think Elle has a lot ofguilt about bringing the bad people,

(26:52):
the monsters into the lives ofher family. You know, I think that
El was in survival mode whenshe was in the lab because that's
all she knew. Right. And Ithink now that we know that Elle
had been one of. I think theonly survivor of one, AKA Henry Creel,

(27:23):
AKA Vecna's massacre. And thereason I say I think that she's the
only survivor is because I. Iwatched several times looking for
her sister from season two.She's not in that scene in season
four, so I think she escapedbefore. Before that. Yeah.
Yeah.

(27:43):
I don't know how she wouldhave done that. She was a little
bit like, they're so young,they're babies, but.
Right.
I Don't know. I don't know howshe got, we don't really know how
she got out. And so to knowthat she bought this into the world,
that, that we, we also havethe context, which the group doesn't

(28:05):
have, that a lot of peopledied in that lab.
Yeah.
That night. And Elle knowsthat she's responsible for all of
it because she knows aboutthat moment, that she made a connection
to this monster and it rippedthrough the, the, like the veil between

(28:27):
the two worlds. And then it'sa veil that now the, the bad side
can come and go as theyplease. You know, they can jump in.
So I think, and I think thatElle, similar to Will later, feels
just so much guilt about herrole in this whole first scene season

(28:49):
and everything that's happenedsince then. And I think it's a character
defining the way that Hopperfeels guilt about something he absolutely
could not have prevented,which was the death of his daughter.
I think El feels the same way,even though she was 12 years old,
being forced and held againsther will to do this thing. So I think,

(29:12):
I just think it's one of thosecharacter defining moments for her,
opening the gate. And I stillhave questions. Did she open the
gate?
There you go.
No, I know I did not make mytinfoil hat yet, but yeah, if, if
we're to assume that Vecna hasalways been kind of lurking in the

(29:35):
background. Did L open it?Was, was Henry looking for a vulnerability?
Did he send that Demogorgonto, for L to see? Like, how much
of this is, it was accidentaland how much of this was. And him
being opportunistic and howmuch of it was planned? And like

(29:57):
I said, the thing with theclock that can he move through time?
Those are all legitimatequestions because, Yeah, I, I, we
just don't know yet. And maybesome of this is like we're two in
the weeds and the duffers arelike, we are. We're telling a story
with five layers, not 10. Youguys, you need, guys need to meet
us back on layer five. But westill have a lot of questions.

(30:20):
But I also think, like,that's, that's part of the joy of
these kind.
Of shows is like taking itapart in that way. And.
Yeah, I'm with you.
Like, I've often questionedthat. Did she open it? Was this a
trap and then the timepiece?
You know, I hope it's notthis. We've talked about it.
We'll talk about it more.
I hope it's not that Vecna can.
Manipulate time and, and Goback and forth, like, through all

(30:43):
the.
Like, like, almost like weused to.
Think that Game of Thrones,you know, like, maybe, you know,
Bran was able to. It was likea time loop.
And I'm hoping that's not thecase when the books get done or whatever
either. But I, I'm glad itwasn't that.
Way in the show, so to speak.
That it wasn't a time loop.And I think, like, it puts me in

(31:05):
the mind.
We talk about the mcu, like,we say, oh, well, you know, how people
mess with time. And this ideathat Vecna can manipulate time or
come back and forth, and maybehe's seen this play out multiple
times and he's trying toactually come out on the better end
of it in this, this instancethat we're witnessing now.
I hope that's not the story that's.
Being told, but I do thinkthat it's a possibility. I do think

(31:27):
it's a possibility that he'sable to, you know, have seen these
things play out multiple timesand try to. Yeah, really try his
best to try to see if this wayhe could, he could have set the trap
for Elle to do exactly whatshe did.
Yeah. I think if we're goingto have some element of manipulation
of time, I just hope that itserves the plot more than it serves

(31:54):
the writing of the story.Right. I'm okay with time stuff,
but it's tricky. And if it'sdone just so that they can explain
stuff that they weren'tplanning from the beginning, I hope
that doesn't happen. So we'llsee. I, I think that. I think that
there's ways that they can goback and explain a few things using

(32:19):
Vecna that don't, don't needtime travel. There's going to be
unanswered questions in thisstory. They've. They've left too
many strings to be played holdat, so that's fine. I don't mind.
That's cool. I'm always okaywith the fans being able to kind
of write their own theories. That's.
Yeah.

(32:39):
All good stories are left upto interpretation.
I love that. I love that, too.
I really like this, thisjourney for.
With Joyce and Hopper, forthem to find Elle's mom. I, I, you
know, it's important. Sets upwhat happens next Season two for
Luke. But I think it's alsoimportant because it's like, it mirrors

(33:04):
what Joyce is currently goingthrough. It's, it's. She's very concerned
that, oh, man, what if I neversee my Kid again. You know, Terry
never, from what we've seen upto this point, hasn't seen Elle again.
And she's gone through immenseamounts of trauma. So I think it's
like one of those things thatseeing it, you're kind of like, oh,

(33:25):
wow, like, what happened?Like, there's more to this story
than we even know, which iscool. The onion's being peeled back
even more.
But it's also, like, I think for.
The character, for Joyce, it'skind of like this thing that maybe
stiffens her resolve of, like,okay, I'm not gonna let them put
me into that place.
Because, remember, we're freshoff of people thinking she's pretty,
she's losing her mind.

(33:46):
And that she's making all this up.
And that this is not possible.
So she's seen this personwho's kind of been neutralized by
the people who she thinks weretrying to make her look crazy and
even staged the death of herkid. Like, staged it, like, legit,
like.
Right.
So I think, like, it's a. It'san interesting mirror for her, and.
I think really shows you howresilient Joyce is, because that

(34:09):
would have. That could havebeen a moment that's.
Just like, oh, my God, I haveno hope. Like this. This person is,
like, sitting here like this.Maybe I'll never find them. And the
fact that she keeps going,obviously, with some encouraging
from Hopper and Hop, is great.You know, I think.
Yeah. I think Terry and Hopperare mirrors to Joyce. Right? Because
these are two people who gottheir children ripped away from them,

(34:31):
and there's nothing they cando about it. Right. Terry is trapped.
And what we will find out inseason two, a loop. And Hopper is
in everyone's worst nightmare.He lost his child. He had to bury
his daughter, and he also losthis marriage. And I think that Joyce

(34:55):
is seeing in that moment amother first and foremost, who was
powerless to protect herchild. And she refuses to. She absolutely
refuses. She's, like, notgoing to be me. And I don't mean.
I. I don't mean to say thatJoyce is being judgmental. I think
she has empathy, but she'slike, I'm going to do everything

(35:18):
in my power to make sure thatthis doesn't happen to my baby. Because
at that point, too, we don'treally know what happened. She doesn't
really know what happened toWill. Right. We have a sense, right?
But she might be thinking, thelab kidnapped him. The lab took him
there the same way that theytook out. I think she's at that point,
just like, I'm not gonna letthis happen with a great deal of

(35:40):
empathy. And I have to say, itall, to me, ties back later to the
significant love and kindnessthat she shows to El, who, of course,
she wants El to find Will, ButI didn't get the sense that that's
the only reason she's tellingher, you're a brave girl. I'll be

(36:03):
right here. Really guiding herthrough the void in a loving. In
contrast to Papa. The way thathe's like, yeah, touch the Democrat.
Like, it's. It's. It's sodifferent. He's like, do this thing
you don't want to do forreasons, essentially telling her

(36:29):
that the thing is coming forher anyway. She might as well catch
up to it.
My gosh.
And then to have Joyce, whohas everything, writing on whether
or not Elle can locate. Well,so kind. If it gets scary in there,
let us come back. Let us know.You know, it's just. It's beautiful

(36:51):
because I. I think she feels areal kinship with Terry. And then
she also extends that toTerry's little girl.
Yeah, 100%. I mean, Joyce,Another one of my faves. Like, she's.
Yeah, she's. I mean, come on.Yeah, she's. She.
That's.
Those are great momentsbetween her and Elle, and I agree

(37:12):
with you. It really shows alot about her character. And I. You
know.
I think that, you know, all ofthese people are on a similar voyage
to Dustin.
It's a curiosity journey. Youknow, It's a curiosity voyage.
They're just. They're just.They're trying to figure it out,
man. Like, you know, so whatdid you think? You know, like. Like,

(37:32):
I just. I want to say that itwasn't an experiment. It was an experiment.
I kind of like that they. Thatthe experiment worked out. Joyce
in that moment, Joyce showingher that compassion, sending her
into the void, and really,like, standing next to her, sitting

(37:56):
next to her, as she's, like,telling her, like, when she saw Barb,
and she's, like, freaked out.She's telling her. And to see Joyce
comforting her, even thoughshe doesn't know what the hell she's
seen. I thought it was phenomenal.
I think all of it'sphenomenal, but wonderful, wonderful
seeing this curiosity voyageof ELs and the whole team play out.
Dustin is just such. Can wejust take a second and, like, acknowledge

(38:18):
that Dustin is one of the bestwritten characters in this whole
thing? He is so funny. He hasall of the qualities of Mike in terms
of being loyal but he is alsoso funny and so smart, and he is
a problem solver. Every timethey have, like, an unsolvable problem,
Justin's like, dustin is like,I got this. Let me. Let me figure

(38:42):
this out. I love. Again, thisis several. Two seasons away, but
him and Robin.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Just perfect.
A little.
A little of, like, Dustin'sproblem solving, a little of her
reasoning, a little of Erica'ssass. We got.
I love it.

(39:02):
It's great.
And then they. And then it isso funny because he's.
He's, like, trolling freakingSteve. We'll get there.
About, like, how do you notsee how awesome this girl is? Like,
what's wrong with you?
So great. I love them. I lovethem, too.
So, yeah, I think that, youknow, the season closes out with,

(39:23):
you know, them finding Will.I'm seeing that, you know, it was
tough for Hopper.
Like, Hopper, like, was reallyflashing back when he was reviving
El.
I mean, reviving Will.
You know, Hopper's reallyflashing back reviving Will.

(39:44):
And I think it's, man, it's.Man, it's tough. It's tough. But
he still fights to it. I mean,this was bravery because they.
Didn'T know what the hell theywere walking into.
They had no idea what thisplace could do. They've seen people
die.
It was so brave of both of them.
And Will legit is almost gone.He is gone, and he gets revived,

(40:06):
and it's like, he won't giveup. I thought he was gonna break
the kid's chest in half. Hewas like, he's pumping. He's like,
I'm gonna make. He's.
You are going to survive. And, yeah.
It'S dramatic, but it's alsoemotional. And it's just a great,
well acted.
Scene, but also just great forthe story to really understand what

(40:27):
the stakes are for not onlyWill and not only Joyce, but also
what it means for Hopper to bethere for this family 100%.
It's such a hard scene towatch because it's so emotional and
well done. And they've beenleaving us a little hint about Sarah

(40:54):
in her last years. Right. Allalong. So to tie it all back in,
in that pivotal moment whereHopper really just doesn't want to
lose another kid. Right? It's.It's not even. He doesn't even know
Will that much. It's justlike, this can't be happening to
another parent. I can't letthis happen. I'm gonna do everything

(41:17):
I can to fight it in the wayit's cut together. I was not expecting
to be so emotional when Irewatched it. I totally forgot about
this scene, by the way.Totally forgot about it. I had no
memory of the cuts back andforth between him losing Sarah. I
knew that happened in theseason. I just didn't link it to
him saving Will. And I wasreally surprised at how effective

(41:41):
it was. And again, this entireseason is really about establishing
relationships and characterarcs in a way that I. I think some
of them got a little bitdropped. Right. I think this. The
Sarah thing later isn't reallyemphasized as much, but I. I think

(42:06):
that it's really well done.And I was a mess. We're just gonna
be honest. There was tears.There was probably some snot. It
was. It was ugly.
I. I was. Yeah, it was. Itwas. It was.
It was emotional for sure.
And it.
And even ending on a goodnote, as we said, you know, that

(42:27):
there's still somethinglurking with just the fact that L,
you know, is hiding in thewoods. Will still is got, you know,
parts of the upside down, likea slug like that he's spitting out,
like we started with. But Ialso think, you know, what we leave
with the sense of is chosenfamily. Like these multiple people

(42:49):
that have just like, chosen tobe there for each other. And I think
for me as a viewer, why I feelso emotional is because we have also
chosen to be part of thisfamily. We've chosen to be like,
in it with them. And when astory can do that for you, it's just
the ride, especially thisearly in the telling of all the story

(43:14):
they still have left. It's aride that you don't want.
To let go of.
I think that's why people are so.
Like, when's it coming back?Where is it? What? You know, you
know, why is it so long inbetween? These kids are growing up,
they got mortgages, they gotkids, they got whatever. It's because
we care. We care because it's.
It's. We all chose all theseyears ago to join this family and

(43:35):
to join the party, and theparty matters to us. And I think,
like, that's. That's thestrength of. Of this whole show.
Besides the nostalgia andeverything else, it speaks to us
on a really visceral level offamily community. What can happen
when you choose to connectwith. With each other in that kind
of way? And there it kind ofripples out to the whole fan community

(43:57):
because we all have made thatsame choice.
Absolutely. I think with anyfantasy or any sci fi, the characters
have to be worth it orotherwise, things just become plot.
And I'll use another story asan example, but it's another Netflix
property. And the book thatThree Body Problem is based on is

(44:24):
essentially plot. It'sessentially plot and science. Right.
The characters aren't reallyconstant through that series, and
we don't get a lot of insightto who they are as people. It's more
about what they'reexperiencing in this moment. Yeah,
well, when, you know, Dave andDan decided that they were gonna

(44:51):
adapt it, they made someadaptive choices that we talked about
extensively when we coveredit, which is to create this group
of friends. And through thatgroup of friends, they would experience
all the same things that thecharacters in the book experience.
But.
Whoa.
I want to go on record. Are wegiving Dave and Dan props for making

(45:12):
positive adjustments to a story?
We did it when we podcasted it.
Yes, we did. Okay, good, good,good. They're good at this. They're
good at that. Even though I.We drag them about the end of Thrones.
But go ahead. I'm sorry,continue. I just wanted to make sure.
Yeah, I mean, I think thatthis is a story that could have fallen.
Not this story, StrangerThings 3. But I'm still talking about
three body problems. Couldhave fallen really flat and gotten

(45:34):
into. It's interesting. Thebook is interesting from its concepts,
but when you're adaptingsomething for television, you have
to hook the audience and theyhave to come back for something more
interesting.
Right.
Than just high minded sci ficoncepts. And I think that they've
done a good job on this show,even though it's not a high. You

(45:57):
know, this is not likefoundation or Three Body Problems.
This is a story about familiesand kids and a group of characters
that we love so much. And Ithink they've done a tremendous job
of making us really investedand also of. We don't see it that
much in this season, but infuture seasons of pairing them up

(46:21):
or grouping them up in new andinteresting ways so that everyone
has something to do. So I'mcurious about where season five is
going to be with that, becauseI think there's an element of the.
I'd like to see as much of thegroup together as possible, but the
cast has gotten so large. Andin this season, Elle is a new addition.

(46:45):
Right. She's the new member ofthe party. But the party grows more
and larger and larger eachseason, which is incredible. The
world gets bigger, but so dothe characters that we love. And
this is kind of their originstory. They all have backstories
Right before we met them inthis moment, I actually think. I

(47:08):
actually hope we get more ofWills, but the play, which I won't
spoil, gives us more of theadult's backstory as well. So they
all have this moment, but theyall have stories before this. But
yet this moment that bringsthem to this critical finale is sort
of the origin of what we seefor the rest of the series. I think

(47:31):
that's really well done, and Ithink that's what hooked people.
I remember the anticipationfor season two was wild. People were
like, couldn't wait. You know,I think because it's taken so long,
season four was a little bitlike, oh, we're still doing this,
and season five, people arestarting to get hyped again. But

(47:52):
I feel like have been like,the story's still on, but for season
two, the people were frenziedabout seeing where the story went
next. And I think it's notbecause of the monsters. It's not
because of the nostalgia. It'sabsolutely because of the relationships
and the characters that werebuilt out of season one.
Totally agree. I completelyagree. And I think. I think there's

(48:15):
very few shows that grouppeople as well as they have. I think
if I had to give, like. And Iwasn't a fan, I wasn't a fan. Not
because I didn't like it, butI just never really got into it.
I think from what you'veexplained to me, I think the Walking
Dead did it really well of,like, grouping people. No. Okay.
They started out okay. Theystarted out strong. Things got little.

(48:37):
A little rough as the seasonwent on.
What I think.
I think the show that I knowdid it well, and it's actually their
problem was bringing peopleback together when. Which I'm wondering
how that's gonna happen. ForStranger Things, which is why I bring
it up, was Thrones. I thoughtThrones got people into groups in
a way that you were happy thatthose people were together. Having

(49:00):
those journey, like one thatcomes to mind is definitely, you
know, the Hound and Arya.You're like, oh, my gosh, this is
the perfect pairing, ordifferent parties that ended up together.
The problem became, well, howdo you get everybody back into the
same place? And I think thebeauty in those stories where people
break up into these factionsto attack the same problem from different
vantage points and givingpeople something to do is that it

(49:23):
normally starts out for meanyway. It starts out with everybody
in the same place. And westart out in this show pretty much
everybody. The people who arethe core members of the party are
in that Dungeons and Dragonsgame campaign, like, and. And that's
it.
And then it expandsperiodically over time.
And then you end. But youstart with people who are, like,

(49:46):
in the same place, essentially.
Like the one. The one kind oflike, caveat to that was, I think,
season three.
Every.
This is what's interestingabout how they brought them together.
People are kind of in the sameplace. You know, the party's kind
of together, but Dustin's justcoming home and Steve.
Is just like, huh, no, seasonthree. You know how I feel about
that season in terms ofsplitting up our groups, you know?

(50:09):
Yeah, but we get new groups, right?
We get new groups.
We get new groups. So eventhough I was salty, like, the whole
season, like the whole season,I'm like, I don't want this. Just
like Max and Elle, I don'twant this. Steve separated from everybody
else. And then Dustin andErica join Steve and Robin. It works

(50:31):
out in the end. But, I mean,the. The ongoing Steve and Dustin
relationship has got. I'lltake it. Right. I just love those
two. Those two are justperfect together. So. But I think
you're entirely right. They dopairings very well. And a lot of

(50:52):
the Thrones pairings are inthe source material, but not all
of them. And. And so here we are.
Yeah, I agree.
Complimenting Dave and Dan again.
Again. I know it's twice. It'stwice in one pod. What is happening?
What is happening? See timewith time, all things, all wounds
heal.

(51:12):
But we talked a little bitabout what we think. We'll talk about
what we learned.
But I think a good thing tokind of think about is what are some
of the things that we've seennow that we will lead us to think
about predictions we may havefor season five. Since we've been
talking about the anticipationfor season five, let's maybe talk
about that. So one of the. Oneof the things that I. I think we've

(51:36):
spoken a lot about offline.
Is that Will kind of feels like.
The key to the Upside Down.Like, he. He kind of feels like in
these first.
In these first chapters, like,he's stuck between world two worlds,
literally. But he's one of. Imean, he's alive and he's trapped.
Normally, people don't livewhen they get.
To the Upside Down. Like, upto this point in the story, he communicates.

(52:01):
He's able to communicatethrough lights, he's able to communicate
through music. He's able touse psychic signals. It just feels
like he has a.
Connection to the Upside downand a Reason why he was the one who
snapped into the. Into theUpside down in the beginning of the

(52:21):
story when he disappeared.
There's more to it than just like.
Well, he was just abducted. Ithink, like, there's a. The isolation
suggests that there's a uniqueconnection. What do you think?
I think there's a really goodchance that Will was chosen.
Yeah, that.

(52:44):
Yeah, I think there's a reallygood chance that Will is special.
Maybe he has an ability tocommunicate across dimensions, which
will be particularly useful toVecna. Maybe he has some other powers
that haven't been revealedyet. But I do feel like there's a

(53:08):
strong possibility here thatWill was targeted. Not that had Dustin
or Lucas taken that turn, theywould have been picked up as well.
I'm not. I don't. I don't knowif that's true. It. You know, it
could come down. Here's thething. They've written this so that

(53:29):
it could come down tocoincidence. Maybe Will, because
he lives so close to the lab.And the Demogorgon had just escaped.
The lab was an easy target. Ormaybe Will is special. And maybe
that specialness is proximityto the lab. Right. That specialness
could be just the part of thereason. Could be that Will. They

(53:54):
live on essentially the sameroad as the lab is, I think, as far
as we know. And maybe the labwas doing something and like we see
in, I think, season three, ormaybe it's season two. But we see
that, like, things. The labmakes decisions and it affects all

(54:15):
of Hawkins. When we see the.The crops and all of that stuff that.
Yeah, that's two. That's.
It could be that he wasaffected by something in the lab.
I don't think that's a storythey're telling, but I think it's
possible. Or it could be thatWill is a special, sensitive kid.
A word that Joyce uses abouthim in the very first episode, that

(54:36):
he is sensitive. Thatsensitivity could be something that
is actually more than justlike a kid who's a little bit quieter
than the others and isbullied. It could mean that he is.
He is more attuned to theareas where the. Like, the veil between

(54:59):
worlds is weaker. So I don't.But I think. I think there's a good
chance that Will was chosenand not. It wasn't just an accident.
I agree. And I think, like,that word sensitive is really interesting
that she chooses that word todescribe him. Because we see over
time that his ability is to.He can feel when any of the characters.

(55:26):
Vecna, the mind Flayer, he canfeel when they're close. He can feel
when it's back. He has a sense that.
So sensitivity.
Not even that. Like, I have togo back and watch this in season
three. But he seems to knowwhen Billy is kind of traveling between

(55:46):
dimensions. I don't know ifthat's what's quite happening in
season three, but you knowwhat I mean? There's that point where
El is in a trance and Will islike, things are getting bad, like,
we gotta go. So he has. Hedefinitely has a sensitivity.
Mm, Agreed. Agreed.

(56:07):
So what do you think? Aboutwhat? What are your predictions for
the Shadow.
Monster and the Vecna link?Like, what do you think happens there?
I haven't quite figured thisout. I'm really struggling with this.
So do you think that Vecna isthe Mind Flayer or that Vecna is

(56:30):
a Big Bad and the Mind Flayeris one of Vecna's generals, or do
you think it's the other wayaround? Or do you. Like, what are.
How have you experienced this?
From the reading I've doneoffline, just kind of like online,
just reading it. My theory isthat Vecna is not the Big Bad. My

(56:53):
theory is that there's abigger bad than Vecna and that Vecna
actually, it's going to beinteresting. I think they're going
to turn things on. Myprediction for season five is they're
going to turn things on hishead and everybody's going to come
into this season thinking thatVecna's who needs to be done, and
they're going to vanquish himpretty fast. And it's going to be

(57:13):
a new Big Bad because there isin Dungeons and Dragons, from my
understanding, a bigger badthan. Than Vecna. And all of these
people are that person's.They're like, they're. They're soldiers.
So similar to, like, you know,to lack of a better term. In Lord
of the Rings, there's allthese different orcs and like, you

(57:34):
go further, further, further.You play the video game, you know,
and all that, Shadows ofMordor and all that, you constantly
think, oh, I.
Killed these orcs, and that's it.
And then it's like there'sanother one that's bigger and worse.
Right. So I think, like,that's. That's what I'm anticipating,
is that all.
Of these are one up, one up.
What my further prediction is.

(57:59):
Is that the bigger badactually ends up being someone who's
intimately connected to one ofthe Kids. That's my. That's my.
Like, that bigger thing is the psyche.
Of one of the kids, whetherthat be El or whether that be Will.
I don't know which one yet.
But that's my. That's mytheory going into it.

(58:20):
And they will be forced to figure.
Out how to deal with one ofthe kids. And it will be the biggest
challenge because it will berevealed, like, in a way where, wow,
now we have to, like, take outone of our friends because this person
has actually been the personthat subconsciously has been pulling
the strings the whole time.
So maybe totally wrong.
Yeah, I mean, we. We'respeculating. We haven't seen season

(58:42):
five, so we don't know. Yeah,I would say I'm. I don't. I. I agree
with you. Everything you justsaid about. Well, not necessarily.
I don't necessarily agree withthe last part about the psyche being
one of the kids, but I dothink that Vecna may be a soldier.
The only thing. Okay, I feelof two minds about this. Again, I

(59:06):
don't want to. I'm not goingto spoil the play, but if he's just
a foot soldier, then why do wehave a whole play about him? You
know, like. But then there arethings in the play that make you
wonder what made him him.Right. It wasn't just. Elle isn't

(59:30):
the one who made Henry murderpeople in season, you know, in the.
In 1979, I believe that's in.She wasn't the one who set him off.
Like, something happened, andI don't think it was just his relationship
with his parents. Somethingmade Henry Creel bad. And so I'm

(59:51):
a little bit worried that it'sgoing to be hard not to draw comparisons
to a series we don't reallylike to talk about on this podcast.
But I'm a little concernedthat they're gonna vanquish Vecna
in episode three. Or maybeVecna redeems himself like every

(01:00:12):
other villain on this showever has. I mean, Steve was essentially
our first antagonist. Heredeems himself by the end of the
season. Billy was our secondantagonist. He redeems himself by
the. You know, in his death inseason three. So I'm a little worried
that something like that'sgonna happen. And then it's like,
we destroyed Vecna, but. Butit. The Mind Flayer isn't fully destroyed.

(01:00:34):
Like, now we have to maybedestroy. Well, I'm a little concerned
we get into a Horcruxsituation, but I'm. I think it's
I think it's all up. It's allpossible based on what they.
Keep showing us that based on what.
We'Ve seen so far. There's onething that I'm so excited to see

(01:00:55):
season five is that there's somany different directions this could
take. This could take atotally straightforward direction.
Vecna is the final boss. Thekids gotta pull together and figure
out what his weakness is. Andmaybe it. What it will come down
to is Max, I think, is kind oflost in his world. If they destroy

(01:01:18):
Vecna, does Max. Do theydestroy Max? Right? It could. That
could. That would be the moststraightforward story. But given
that there's been all thisanticipation for how long the episodes
are, I'm like, yay. And tellthem the most straightforward story
we're going to get. We'regoing to get some other shockers
that we're going to be like,what? And then when we look back,
we're going to be like, oh,yeah, that was kind of telegraphed

(01:01:39):
in season two or season threeor season one. So I'm. I would. I
think that Vecna being the Bigbad is the most logical thing, but
I don't necessarily think thatthis is the story that they're telling,
so we'll see.
I don't think so either. And Ithink. I think, like, one of, you
know, the. The show in theseries that will not be named thanks

(01:02:01):
to its creator. Also about acharacter that will not be named,
one of the things that I thinkmade that easier to swallow with
some of the things thathappened later in that is the same
thing that will make it easierfor one of these kids to be the why
I'm going to. My theory is ifthey were still kids, it'd be harder

(01:02:23):
to like them to have to makethose kind of choices. But now that
they're older, it's gonna feelless like, oh, we can't make that
kind of choice.
Like, somebody.
Not everybody's getting out ofthis thing alive and not.
And some sacrifice will haveto be made.
And in season four, as we'lltalk about later, it feels like,

(01:02:45):
I don't know, man. Will feelson the board, like, to me, like,
honestly, like Will does andso does El.
Both Will and Al, we've talkedabout this ad nauseam. At this point,
we both feel like those arethe two that we worry about the most.
I have consulted the Internetmultiple times. Most people are worried
about Steve. And I just wonderif that's because Steve is a beloved

(01:03:06):
character or because Steve wassupposed to die in season one or
because Steve is a dude whoputs himself between whatever danger
is there and whoever is behindit. I mean, we're going to talk about
season two in the future, butSteve is incredibly brave in season

(01:03:27):
two.
Positive theory.
I'll posit a theory aboutthat. I think it can be. I think
it can be Steve also. I thinkthat because Steve has been the one
who stood in the void, like,stood in the way of the kids having
danger, being in danger, andhas saved them multiple times when

(01:03:47):
almost like in a chaperonekind of thing, I could see Steve
trying to stand in the way ofsomeone hurting them and then it
being revealed that one. Butunknowingly not knowing that one
of these two is actually theone who's been orchestrating this
whole thing. I could see aturn like that where it's like, oh,

(01:04:09):
Steve's trying to save theday. Like, he would always save the
day. And then it's in. Willsurprises him, and he's like, holy
crap. Or Elle does somethingthat harms him accidentally, and
everybody's like, oh, crap.What happened?
There's a.
Or maybe neither one of them,but just Steve ends up going down.
But my.
My theory is that Steve.

(01:04:31):
Will.
It's very possible Steve dies,but it's not in the same way that
I'm.
Thinking that they will loseEllen or Will. It's like that loss
will be end game. Steve's willbe to save them on the way that.
Yeah. Yeah. I just want to sayI don't think Will is evil. I think.

(01:04:53):
I think it's possible thatunknowingly, Will is affecting things,
but I think Will is ultimatelya good person. I got to tell y'.
All. L. The jury is still out.I'm just.
Yeah, yeah.
No, no, no.
I'm with you.
I'm with you on that. But Idon't know that I wouldn't call Will
Will evil. I would call Willconflicted. I would call the fact

(01:05:17):
that Will has always wanted.He has a. There's something that
he's always had a.
Struggle with throughout thewhole show that makes me feel like
it's more connected to time.
He has always wanted things to stay.
The way that they were.
He's grasping to why are wechanging? Why aren't things the way

(01:05:37):
they used to be? Why? He has avery hard time with.
Time moving forward, whichmakes me feel.
Like, as a character, he is afraid.
Of what's going to happen whenthey get to their final destination.
And I definitely could seethat, because what if the best day
of Will's life up until thispoint was the day he went missing.

(01:06:00):
Right? 10 hour DND campaignwith his best friends in the whole
world, right? What if that daywas so wonderful and then it went
totally wrong and that's whythe Upside down is stuck on that
day. There's other. Therecould be other explanations for why
the Upside down is stuck onthat day. Could be that that's also

(01:06:21):
the day that Elle touched theDemogorgon, right? And open the gate.
It could be a lot of reasons.But the fact that the Upside down
is stuck on the day that Willwent missing seems a really important
detail that they only gave tous in season four. Season four and
season five were writtentogether, so makes me think that,

(01:06:46):
yeah, it's more connected.It's not just connected to the accident.
The potential accident we saidearlier may not have been an accident
that Elle touched theDemogorgon at that time, but it could
be. I don't think it was that.It was just that El opened the gate
on that day. I think there'sa. Might be a more significant explanation

(01:07:06):
for why we're stuck on in theUpside down on that particular day.
I agree. I totally agree.
So let's talk about a littlebit, like to close things out, let's
talk about what we learned. Wekind of already talked about the
Flea and the Acrobat piece.
So we know how they'redescribing. We learned how they describe
parallel universes. Gives us agood kind of like base of that.

(01:07:30):
I want to talk about.
I mean, Terry Ives being partof MK Ultra.
I think this is an interesting thing.
That they added in for thosethat aren't aware. Maybe a lot of
people are. MK Ultra was areal covert CIA program. It ran from
the early 1950s into the 1970s.

(01:07:53):
And its purpose was to exploremind control, brainwashing, interrogation
techniques.
It was done during the Cold War.
We have a lot of Cold Warreferences and there was a lot of
the researchers used psychedelics.
So there's a lot ofpsychedelics like.
Lsd, hypnosis, sensorydeprivation, electroshock therapy,

(01:08:17):
and a lot of other methods to test.
How people's minds could beinfluenced and. Or broken. So fascinating
that they bring this in. TheDuffer brothers. They must have.
They did their research. Manyparticipants never gave informed
consent. So a lot of peopledidn't know that they were. They
were part of this, thisexperiment, including some of the

(01:08:38):
psychiatric patients,prisoners. Sometimes the. The general
public didn't know and the.
Program was classified, highlyclassified, and only.
Became came to light in the70s after congressional investigation
and much of the originaldocumentation was destroyed in 1973.
Now let me tell you why I findthat fascinating based on what we're

(01:09:01):
talking about earlier withWill and him living closer to the
labs, is that sometimes theywere testing, they throwing K Ultra
out there. So they weretesting on the general public.
And we know what happens toeverybody in the.
So many people in the general public.
But I kind of have had this.
Theory that I've said to youbefore that if L is the experiment,
then Will could be the control group.

(01:09:23):
And I always kind of go off.
Of that theory in my brain of.
Like there's nothing in theshow that would indicate that.
But just thinking about thisexperiment of MK Ultra, how they
would do certain things tosee, okay, is this working? And then
introduce it to the publicbased on what you can read about
online, you're like, oh, it'spossible to have these control and
experimental groups like that.

(01:09:44):
I totally agree. That'spossible. I mean this is what I was
talking about before thespillover from the lab. We don't
really know if that's thething that makes Will special. And
maybe it's there. Maybe that'sjust like a one time thing, right?
Maybe it's just when the vinesor whatever infect the crops or the
spores get. But I'm the reasonI think this is worth thinking through

(01:10:09):
because maybe the, maybe the,the control in the experience experiment
or the placebo group and thein group. Maybe, maybe it's actually
Joyce and Terry, right?Because remember, Terry didn't know
she was pregnant when shejoined the experiment. What if there
was some kind of spilloverfrom the lab, from proximity to the

(01:10:32):
lab that also affected Joyce.We don't, we just don't know. I.
I think I'm kind of disturbedby some. I've seen some chatter about
who else father could beonline and I'm a little concerned
about the possibility thatHenry could be Elle's father. Like

(01:10:57):
Henry and Terry would havebeen in as part of the experiment
at the same time. And thereare other things that are concerning
too. But I think if Will haspowers, they have to explain where
they came from, right? Becausethey've posited that Els came from
this ex. From her mom beingpart of NK Ultra. So if Will also

(01:11:23):
has powers and this is not astory that is as I, I'll never forget
when one of the writers said,said this is not a fantasy, this
is a science fiction story,then they have to have an explanation
for why Will is special. Andthat why Will is special has to either

(01:11:44):
be rooted in who? Joyce. InJoyce, or it has to be rooted in
Lonnie. Or something had hadto happen to Will that didn't happen.
Damn sure ain't Lonnie.
It damn sure ain't Lonnie.Let's just throw Lonnie out.
That's a theory.
Let's not like, listen, Idon't know.
Lonnie looked like he did somedrugs in the 70s, though.
He definitely did some drugsin the 70s, that's for sure. No question

(01:12:04):
about it. It's possible. Maybethat's why he checked out.
They're 12ish at the beginningof this, right? So they would have
been born in 69. 7. Okay, allright. 60. 71. All right, so, but
we'll see. I. I don't know.That's the beauty of this. We're

(01:12:27):
just speculating. All of thiscould be shot down, right? But I
think that if they're gonnagive Will powers, if that's true,
if, if all the fan theoriesabout that is true, they have to
give a reason for why he hasthem, right?
As powers, for sure.
And I mean, and what we knowso far, what we've learned so far.
Is that he's changed, right,since he's come to out of the Upside
down, that it's not a cleanending. We know, we. We've talked

(01:12:49):
about a few times on this, onthis episode of the podcast that,
you know, he's. He's spittingout slugs. He's definitely, like,
able to see into the otherworld just standing in front of his.
In front of his sink. So weknow that Will is changed, right,
like from the end of it. Andwe also learned obviously, that Elle
opened the gate. We've gonethrough that quite a bit, and it's

(01:13:10):
fascinating how she opened thegate. We'll learn more about what
that means later on as we gothrough everyone who's watched it.
But we know that she has. Thatthat was something that she did.
And I guess, you know, we drawa distinction. We learned a little
bit of the distinction in thisseason about the Void.

(01:13:33):
Versus the Upside down, youknow, like that, that. That El is
able to access parts of what'shappening in the Upside down by entering
into the Void and travel intodifferent spaces and time. There's
like an in between world,which is what. Which is really interesting,
I guess, if I was. If I'mgoing by the way that the, the parallel

(01:13:56):
world was Described right. InMr. Clark's explanation. The void
is the rope. The void is theactual rope. Like it is the tightrope.
It's like that's the way I'mexperiencing it.
Is that like there's two sidesto that rope and the void is that
in between place. But that'skind of what we see that she's able
to enter into.
Yeah, I think that somepeople, when I speak to people about

(01:14:19):
the show, people are a littleconfused about the void and the Upside
Down. And then there's alsowhere Max gets caught in season four,
which we think might be a newdimension. I think it's probably
the inside of Vecna's mind.And then also the void is not one

(01:14:41):
way all the time. You know,it. It can be a two way tool. And
I'm not really sure how thatworks. Right. Because like Billy
is able to manipulate the tooland, and weaponize it against Elle,
but she can also spy on Mikeand Lucas and Dustin in later seasons

(01:15:05):
talking. So. Oh, I guessDustin wasn't there. It was Mike,
Lucas and Will. But she can.Yeah, because that was when Dustin
was in his fields, so he wasoff with Steve. But yeah, I think
that, that people get confusedabout this. So we just want to note

(01:15:26):
it. The void is very distinctfrom the Upside Down. They are two
different places. El is notentering the Upside down when she's
in the Void. She can use thevoid to look for people. And it appears
that she can use the void justlike you said, like that. Like the
flea on the typer, which meansthat she can weave in and out of
dimensions psychically. Justpsychically. She cannot physically

(01:15:49):
manifest herself in other places.
Yeah, it's a good, good, goodcall out. Good distinction.
So what do you. I mean, so aswe close out, what are your takeaways?
What are your takeaways forthis, for this, this season? Because
we're closing season one.
I mean, my big, my. One of my.The biggest takeaways I had was sort

(01:16:10):
of about the way that like,trauma plays a role in this whole
series really. But we havethis trauma that creates the gate
to begin with. Right. It wasElle's trauma. Tore a hole through

(01:16:34):
that gate. It actually rippeda literal hole between dimensions.
We have the, the trauma ofHopper's loss that really propels
him into saving Will andmotivates him. And we have the foreshadowing

(01:16:57):
of Will's trauma. Will is backand he's trying to act upbeat. You
know, they're havingThanksgiving and he's putting on
this brave face and he excuseshimself to go to the Bathroom. And
when he coughs up that slug,it isn't just a reminder that he
was infected by the UpsideDown. It's a reminder that this experience

(01:17:18):
he had is not going to go awayeasily. He can't just pretend. He
can't just pretend his waythrough it. So to me, those are the
big takeaways. And I thinkthat sort of theme of trauma comes
back in a big way in season four.
100%.
And season three, too. Right?Billy's trauma is what made him the

(01:17:40):
big bad of season three. Andthen trauma is all over season four.
All of the deaths in seasonfour are that Vecna does have to
do with those peopleexperiencing a trauma, be it their
own fault or not, and himexploiting that trauma. So I think

(01:18:00):
that there's a real theme thatjust weaves through the whole series
about trauma. Clearly, theduffers think that trauma is an extremely
important thing in terms ofhow it influences who we become in
our identities. And so they'vekind of woven that through the whole
story.

(01:18:21):
I agree. I also want to. Justas we were sitting here, it made
me think about. Because youwere talking about all the trauma
in season four, and I justthought about season four and FECA's
giving me Freddy Krueger alittle bit.
He's giving me Freddy Krueger.I'm like, whoa, wait a second. This
has, like that.
Totally the countdown and.Yeah, totally. Yeah, they were. I'm
sure they were going for thatbecause it definitely gives that.

(01:18:43):
Yeah, for sure.
Do, like, do younger folksreally know about Nightmare on, like
that?
I don't know if you're ahorror fan, if you're not a horror
fan and that, you know, Idon't really.
It's funny, this stage, Idon't really watch horror movies
all that often, but.
When I was younger, I was.
I was. I watched quite a bit.But when I was, like, in my teenage

(01:19:07):
years, it was like, all therage. Right. And then, like, we were
even younger.
I think we're younger than that.
When I, like, got you to watchNightmare on Elm street.
Again, we weren't talkingabout my trauma, but.
Yeah, exactly.
No, but I think I feel like itwent kind of out of fashion those.
And maybe they're still makingmovies and they just don't do as
well. They don't break throughto the mainstream, which, like, I

(01:19:29):
fully agree with my girlLizzo. A lot of things don't break
through. They gotta. Theygotta hit break through the algorithm.
So it seems. But it seems likeSaw is a bigger franchise. The thing
that people would connect to.But the size of Freddy Krueger when
we were kids, all the waythrough adulthood, that was him and
Mike Myers were like the big bad.

(01:19:51):
And Jason.
Jason. Oh, gosh. And JasonVoorhees. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So
those were how we experiencehorror. And, you know, the duffers
are about my age, so I'massuming that that. But totally.
Vecna is definitely givingFreddy Krueger.
Definitely giving FreddyKrueger vibes for sure.
Well, all right. That's goingto do it. Thank you for joining us.

(01:20:13):
We are wrapping up season oneof Stranger Things. We'll be back
next episode to continue withthe first half of season two. And
we're just so happy to behere, enjoying it. Check us out on
all of our socials. Kinfolkpod on Instagram. Kin folklore pod

(01:20:34):
on on Twitter. Also Tik Tok,you can go ahead and hit us up on
email kinfolklore gmail.comand just stay connected with us and
we will see you next time.
Bye, everyone.

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