November 4, 2025 • 62 mins
Welcome back to Kinfolklore, where Andrea and Paul dive deep into the fantasy and sci-fi worlds we love. Few shows capture that blend of nostalgia, terror, and friendship quite like Stranger Things.
This episode, we’re rewinding all the way back to Hawkins, Indiana, Fall 1984. The Arcade is hot, Ghostbusters costumes are... cooler? In preparation for the final season dropping this November, Andrea and Paul are rewatching every episode from the very beginning, continuing their coverage here with Season 2, Chapters 1–5
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:08):
Welcome back to Kin Folklore.
We're diving into the fall of1984 in Hawkins, Indiana, where the
arcade is hot.
Ghostbuster costumes are cooler.
Are they?
I mean.
I mean, I love them as a. I'mnot gonna.
I thought they were dope.
Who are you gonna call?
Them.
I thought they were dope.
Who are you gonna call?
You know, little cringy to bethe only ones wearing it.
(00:29):
And traumatic supernatur arejust part of growing up.
I'm Andrea.
I'm Paul.
And these first five chaptersof season two of Stranger Things.
Almost a year after the eventsof season one.
But Hawkins hasn't shaken offthe Upside Down.
Still, like, hanging on.
It's like a bad ex.
(00:50):
Will's back, but not quite okay.
He's coughing out things wesaw at the end of last season.
New kids are in town, andthere's a shadow in the sky that
no one's ready for.
Today's episode, we continueour journey with season two of Stranger
Things, chapters one through five.
We explore the strangevisions, disgusting creatures, and
(01:16):
extremely questionable decisions.
Very, very questionable.
Mostly of Dustin.
Mostly of Dustin.
As we continue to explore theright side up and the upside down
of Hawkins.
As a reminder, while we arediscussing chapters one through five
specific, we will be chattingabout everything that's happened
(01:39):
in chapter in seasons onethrough four.
So if you are listening tothis or watching this, you might
want to come back when youfinish your entire binge.
Kin Folklore will have adult content.
If you're not in the marketfor, like, a different color plastic
jack or lantern, you don'treally like orange.
(02:00):
You're really looking for green.
Or maybe even the stock roomshenanigans of one Bob Newby and
Joyce Byers, then you've cometo the wrong place.
But if you like the idea ofpickup lines involving rolling your
tongue through your missingteeth, then you've come to the right
place.
Shout out to Dustin, man, hehad a rough season.
(02:20):
He made.
He made bad choices.
Rough, rough season.
All right, so let's get intothe summary.
Chapters one and two.
Mad Max and Trick or treat freak.
A year after Will'sdisappearance, Hawkins looks normal
on the surface, but cracks arealready showing.
(02:41):
Will is haunted by visions ofthe Upside down, though.
The new doctor at the lab, Dr.Owens, brushes it off as PTSD, which
is kind of a big deal.
But he's like, it's fine.
It's just.
So what's a little ptsd?
Ptsd?
You went to a whole other dimension.
You know, just shake it off.
No big deal.
(03:01):
They'll be all right.
Hopper keeps 11 hidden away ina cabin, but she is so restless and
desperate to reconnect withthe boys.
Speaking of the boys, they'readding a girl into the mix when the
group dynamic shift when a newstudent, Max, rolls into town with
(03:24):
her stepbrother, Billy.
Still don't like Billy.
I don't care about hisredemption arc.
No.
No, I don't.
There's no redemption for.
For Billy's foolishness.
Yeah.
Meanwhile, Nancy and Steve'srelationship falters under the weight
of Barb's death and all of thelies that they're forced to tell.
They can't even acknowledgethat Barb is dead.
(03:46):
By Halloween, the fissures deepen.
Mike is still drowning in hisgrief for Elle.
Will's visions grow darker,culminating in the first glimpse
of the enormous shadow monster.
And Dustin makes a reallyquestionable choice when he keeps
a strange creature named Dart.
(04:08):
So adorable.
It's adorable, but it's a.
Dart is not adorable.
Dart is not cute.
Dart is disgusting.
Just to look.
Oh, Billy reminds me of likethe, the villains in Karate Kid.
Every time I see this season,I'm like, he's got.
He's like all the villains inKarate Kid.
He does kind of have that vibe.
(04:29):
And then in chapter threethrough five, Pollywog, Will the
wise and Dig Dug, Dustin's newpet Dart becomes the center of trouble.
When Will recognizes it is acreature from the Upside down, the
warnings come a little too late.
Will is overtaken by theshadow monster in the field.
That is a wild scene.
(04:49):
Like to just see him like Ilove that scene.
It's such a good, well shot SC scene.
Like.
Yeah.
To see like him in the Upsidedown and also in the real world and
them not being able to likebreak through and see what's happening,
it's really.
Yeah, it was, it was kind of a.
The first reminder in thisseason for me anyway of what they
can do with their effects withtheir camera work.
(05:12):
I just, I love in the editingbecause the Joyce trying to get to
him and all of that plays outso well.
Truly amazing.
So Will is overtaken and it's leaving.
Joyce is terrified by what shesees and she sees.
And as she sees, Will isstarting to change.
(05:32):
Like he's not quite himself.
He begins to have differentlike things that feel a little bit
off.
Hopper is chasing down themystery of a rotten.
Of rotten crops.
So things are starting to rotinside the town.
So he's getting all theseweird calls.
He goes out.
It's strange.
He discovers through thismystery, the spreading tunnels beneath
Hawkins that are happening,all coming from the labs, only to
(05:54):
be trapped inside one of these tunnels.
Goes in, you know, does thehopper thing.
He's going to figure it outall on his own, doesn't have any
backup, decides that he can do it.
He's a.
He's a one man army of purepolicing force with coffee and donuts
on the.
It's almost like he doesn'thave a child who has superpowers
(06:16):
at his cabin that could havehelped him.
Yeah, no, because he's gonnado it on his own.
He's telling.
He's like, he's leaving her lockdown.
He.
He was.
As he was leaving Eggos forElle, he was also eating them as
well.
In the sense that, like, this is.
This is not.
This is not.
You know what I mean?
Like, it's like he's not infighting shape, is what I'm trying
to say.
To be doing this all on hisown, as we find out in the next season,
we'll talk about that.
(06:36):
Anyway, at the same time,Eleven pushes back on her complete
isolation.
It's actually reallyconcerning how he's treating the
situation.
I know he's, like, scared.
But she's very isolated, andI'm glad that she pushes back.
Her search for answers takesher to Terry Ives, where she discovers
the devastating truth of herstolen childhood.
(06:58):
Nancy and Jonathan, determinedto give Barb justice.
They team up and they go on asearch to one of our favorite conspiracy
theorists, Murray, to find away to bring the lab into light.
And all that's happened, andDustin realizing really rapidly that
Dart is rapidly evolving intosomething dangerous.
(07:18):
He turns to the most unlikelyally he could find.
Steve Harrington.
Reminder that Dart ate Muse.
I'm just.
He's so cute.
Oh, adore.
Poor little Dart.
Oh, he ate the cat.
He ate.
He actually ate Dustin'sfamily pet.
Oh, my gosh.
(07:39):
Okay.
Dart, in my opinion, likeBilly, is a standard for the Karate
Kid.
I see all these references.
This is how you can see alltheir influences.
Dart is a standard for Gremlins.
Like, this is Gremlins.
Like, they give you.
Like, And.
And I think.
I think the eating of the catis a metaphor for the Gremlins fans
(08:00):
who hated Gizmo.
Like, there's a lot ofGremlins fans who hated Gizmo.
Like, legit.
They were like, oh, he's very.
He's cute.
He's adorable.
And so Muse.
I also did not like Gizmo.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
But I like Muse.
Muse.
Muse.
Muse did nothing wrong.
He did nothing wrong.
So let's talk about it.
Let's pour one out for the catwho took the L in as a stand in for
(08:26):
one furry gremlin.
Muse, an adorable cat.
The best companion to Mrs. Henderson.
This goes out to all ourfallen homies.
Yo.
(08:46):
Don'T let the gym get likethat, y'.
All.
And the unnamed lab employeesin the military that perished between
chapter four and chapter five.
There's always some unnamedmotherfuckers out here.
That they never know who thesepeople are.
They're just unnamed, justextras that died at the lab.
They get it.
They get the copy from theiragent and it's like, okay, here's
the thing.
(09:06):
You're going to be in Stranger Things.
Here's the other thing.
You're going to die with nolines and just look terrified.
Can you look terrified?
Also, you might die off screen.
It's a possibility that you'llhave a single line in one episode
and never see you again.
Oh, my gosh.
So these first few episodes,you know, they set up a lot of relationship
(09:29):
dynamics that are going to bekind of.
I mean, there was some seedsplanted in season one, but this really
sets us on the trajectory.
I think season two reallystarts us with the relationship dynamics
down the road that we'll see in.
In season three and seasonfour and possibly, I'm assuming,
in season five.
Right.
So let's talk about one thatwas a new, like, we didn't know was
(09:51):
even happening.
When he walks in the store,I'm kind of like, who the hell is
this guy?
Let's talk about Bob and let'stalk about Joyce.
Like, I actually.
I mean, I like.
I like Bob.
I like Bob and Joyce together.
At first, I'm kind of like,you know, the fan of me.
It's kind of like, oh, Ithought Hopper and Joyce had a thing.
But I like Bob.
I think Bob is a good dude.
(10:11):
I love Bob.
Bob is such a great characterto introduce and also has an impact
on the story beyond his time.
He's only in one season.
They had to have known thatthey weren't going to have him for
more than, you know, the.
I think he's in six of thenine episodes or whatever.
(10:35):
He's a really good character.
Patty Newby is an importantcharacter that we learn about later
in season four.
That's his.
Bob's, I think, younger sisterwho did.
And so I think that he's areally impactful character.
But I also think it givesJoyce something else.
(10:58):
Another person that isn't justher boys and Hopper to have a dynamic
with.
And I think considering thatwhen this show was initially developed,
Joyce was really the main character.
Right.
Like, that they give.
There's another adult character.
Joyce has another.
Has an adult relationship in this.
(11:20):
That's not just her banterwith Hopper.
Her entire world still centersaround Will and his recovery, but
she gets adult stuff to do.
She has a boyfriend.
She seems happy.
Right.
Like, that's the thing.
It seems.
It seems like everyone'shealing on the outside, but actually
right beneath that firstlevel, everyone's still really traumatized
(11:41):
about what happened the year before.
Yeah.
And I think, like, what Ireally love is in that scene we referenced
in the adult content, warningis like, he comes in, they're making
out.
You know, there's like this.
They establish their desirefor each other.
But then there's somethingelse that's really powerful in that
(12:02):
moment, is like, when theysay, hey, we're going to have movie
night tonight.
And he's like, hey, it'sJonathan's time to pick.
He, like, reminds Joyce of that.
Like, he's attentive to thechildren and, like, not like he doesn't.
He's.
He's there, like, connectingwith Joyce, but also trying to forge
a relationship with her boys,which I think is beautiful.
And it's like, it shows thathe's just.
Just his character.
(12:22):
He shows up as a really gooddude and just like, wanting to, like,
like, have family.
And he.
You can see that he caresabout Joyce and her kids.
So 100%.
He's a.
He would have been a very goodstepdad because he's trying really
hard.
And even though Jonathan doesn't.
Is more skeptical of him.
I think just because Jonathanis older and his own.
(12:45):
He's been hurt before by Lonnie.
And I think Jonathan is justlike a little bit more of a cynical
character.
Will is giving it a shot.
Right.
He's like, this dude is corny,but he makes mom happy.
I'm going to try to make it work.
Yeah, no, for sure, for sure.
And then there's some otherinteresting relationship dynamics
that have to deal with, like, relationships.
(13:07):
There's a face off betweenDustin and Lucas, who are attempting
to win the hand of a personthey didn't even meet yet.
They haven't had aconversation with Max.
Maxine, she is one of the newkids in town and Dustin and Lucas
are really, really competing.
And she's just struggling tobe accepted by the group, but also
(13:32):
struggling to find her way in.
Hawkins as like the new person.
Like, what do you think ofthis whole dynamic with the three
of them?
First of all, what an iconicentrance into the show Max has.
She is just.
I think Max, of all thecharacters that we meet over the
course of the four seasons, Ithink Max is probably the most important
(13:52):
character that we meet becauseso when you think about Max, like
a lot of the rest of the storydoesn't unfold without her, which
is not really true about Robinor I guess Murray is kind of like.
Robin and Murray are important.
No disrespect to them or their characters.
Bob is an important character, too.
I just said that.
Right.
But Max feels like a linchpin character.
(14:15):
Like, if you pull her out,some of it starts kind of like unraveling.
This dynamic between Dustin,Lucas and Max in the beginning half
of the season is so funny to me.
Yeah.
I actually thought Dustin wasgoing to win this one.
And maybe if Dustin hadn'tbeen running around after that disgusting,
slimy little animal.
(14:36):
You're blaming Dart.
You're blaming Dart for thefall of Dustin's ability to scoop
Max.
I'm just saying Lucas was ableto focus.
Lucas did focus Lucas out here.
Dustin was out here chasingaround some amphibian.
Yeah, yeah.
That he.
He found in the trash.
He literally found it in the trash.
(14:58):
But here's the question.
Lucas is talking about thatlife, but Dustin is out here living
it.
He's dealing with the animalsthat are coming from the Upside Down.
Later on in another season, hewill do the whole science project.
Lucas is out here spilling thebeans about things that they were
not supposed to let leave theparty to win Max over to.
(15:20):
That was his smooth move islike, here it is.
Let me give you all thesecrets of the party and let you
into.
If I'm Mike and I'm Dustin,I'm calling party foul.
I'm calling a party foul.
This is a party foul.
It's a little rough.
Listen, you know that myrelationship with Lucas not always
the best.
Like if.
If I have to pick from thatfamily, Erica is the character she.
(15:42):
Because.
Because.
Because as many of our friendsin failure said, there are very.
You as a child and Erica havea lot of crossover.
Okay.
Just because I also liked MyLittle Pony who didn't like.
Honestly who was born in the80s and didn't like My Little Pony.
(16:04):
But it's not just the MyLittle Pony.
It's the witty repartee.
It's the unwilling to sufferfoolishness of the friends any of
time that you and you and.
And my Sister would.
Would be like, oh, no, we'renot putting up with Paul's crap.
This is an Erica move.
This is.
This is a very, very connectedErica, who I. I relate to Lucas on
that level, and that's whereit stops.
(16:26):
I mean, I. I'll take that as a win.
Erica's much better at maththan I ever was, though.
Yeah, that's like, struggleswith math.
Erica's apparently a math servant.
Like, I. I don't know.
I can't wait till we get toseason three.
Erica.
Season three Erica is.
Is not peak Erica, but verygood Erica is where we really start
(16:46):
to understand more.
I really hope we get, like,enough Erica in season five, because
she kind of falls to thewayside in season four.
Yeah, for sure.
I agree.
So, I mean, like, so.
So there's that whole dynamicthat's going on with.
With Dustin and.
And Max and.
And Lucas, and then, you know,there's like, one of the.
(17:07):
The anchors of this seasonbecause it sets things in motion
for Elle's journey is this.
This.
This relationship with Hoppergetting a second chance at being
a dad, but also.
But also kind of like,overdoing it, being overprotective
based on loss, like his.
His inability to, like,really, like, you know, make square
(17:31):
what happened to hisbiological daughter.
And El, like, holding him tohis word, like, hey, you said this
is going to happen.
This was going to happen.
And she's been a little bit ofa brat, you know, with superpowers.
I mean, only thing I wouldgive props to Hopper about is, like,
you've seen this child dothings that.
And you're out here, like,beefing and chest puffed out, like,
(17:51):
yo, you not doing this.
This, that.
That.
I'm like, she can throw youacross the room with her mind, like,
what are you doing?
So it shows that they've atleast forged a relationship, that
she wouldn't use her powers tohurt him in that way.
Totally.
You know what I mean?
Like, so, no, she definitelydoesn't mind using them to remind.
(18:13):
Yeah.
That they exist.
Right.
But I. I think, again, this isanother thing the show excels at.
There's something for everybody.
I think that.
That my experience of seasontwo, when it came out, was different
than my experience now becauseI now have under my belt a lot of
my friends complaining abouttheir preteen children, and I'm like,
(18:38):
yeah, this is very relatable.
Like, the kind of the.
The inability to explain rules to.
To them and make themunderstand it.
I think that's very relatable.
Sometimes things are justdangerous, and we don't really want
to explain why.
And sometimes things are sodangerous that we want children to
(19:00):
just listen to us and like.
But on the flip side, Elle hasbeen locked up her entire life.
She's finally met some friendsand connected to some people that
she deeply cares about, andshe's now being kept away from the
entire world.
She's not allowed to leavethis cabin.
She's not allowed to even have the.
The curtains open during the day.
(19:22):
She.
She's basically learningeverything about what it is to be,
you know, out of the lab from television.
It's a terrible existence foranyone, but especially a girl her
age.
But also one who has, like, aton of trauma about being locked
up all the time.
Right.
I agree.
And I feel bad for Elle withall of that.
I do not feel bad for Mike.
(19:43):
I just do not.
I just.
No, actually, to be fair, Ithink it's more later that I start
to really get irritated withMike at this point.
I think I'm reading too muchof season three into my feelings
around this whole separation part.
But if I were.
If I.
If I were to say anything inthis part, I feel like Mike has connected
(20:06):
with Elle and he misses L. Buthe also is.
I think there's a.
There's something that's stillkind of there where I think, like,
they.
It's.
It's.
It's.
It's the avatar problem.
I'm not ready to see them allboot up in season two.
Like.
Like, I wasn't for, like,Katara and Aang.
It's like, come on.
This is the second time thisweek that somebody has brought up
(20:27):
Katara and Aang to me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Just talking about youngpeople who don't need to have booze.
Right.
This is where I'm at with it.
I'm like, you're.
It's just too much, right?
Like, so.
I don't know.
I, I'm.
I, I, I guess where I.
Where I land is like, that.
That, you know, Elle.
I'm glad that they gave her the.
(20:47):
The whole arc for Elle is about.
In this episode is, like,making peace with the past and understanding
that, like, her.
Who her family is like, that.
Her newfound family, like,these groups of people.
And I think without thatseparation, that journey doesn't
happen.
Right.
She's going to be.
So she has to realize thevalue of her relationship with Mike
(21:07):
and her relationship with Willand Hopper and Joyce and Lucas and
Dustin.
And let's be honest, Elle kindof fucked Max up at the beginning
of their Relationship.
She was like, yeah, I'm not a fan.
You're talking to Mike.
It's a little bit crazy.
So little.
Little wild.
I love that scene so muchbecause I love the fact that Mike
(21:28):
is actually telling, like,Max, who is the most emotionally
mature of all the kids.
Right, right.
Knows that Mike doesn't likeher and doesn't want her to be part
of the party.
She can feel that right away.
Right.
She.
I also think there's a pointwhere it's acknowledged that Will
doesn't seem to care either way.
So Dustin and Lucas want her in.
Will is kind of like, whatever.
(21:49):
If that's what they want,that's what they want.
But Mike is like, no, if agirl's coming in, it can only be
mine.
Yeah, exactly.
Right?
This is what I'm saying.
But.
But Max is sitting there, andshe's like, how can I.
How can I make him understand?
I'm not trying to take.
Ls, please.
And she engages him in thisconversation about, like, it seems
(22:13):
like, l was pretty cool.
Tell me more.
And he's doing that.
And then Ella's like, omg,yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You are acknowledging theexistence of another girl.
She must fall.
She must fall off theskateboard right away.
It's.
It's too much.
I.
And I.
You know, and I think.
(22:34):
You know, I think, like, yousaid something about Max earlier
also about, like, you know,how consequential she is to the storyline.
And, you know, we see thisplay out with, like, what happens
with Billy and, like, herbackstory of where she's come from
and her parents and all ofthat stuff.
But I think the other piece ofit is how she clearly completes the
(22:57):
party, like, in a way that youdidn't know that the party needed.
And she also assigns herself a role.
She's like, okay, well, ifElle was the mage, I'm the zoomer.
Like, I'm gonna be like, the.
I'm, like, the person who's,like, gonna push us through danger
or take risk or, you know, like.
And I thought that was prettyinteresting to see a person that's,
(23:18):
like, I know myself wellenough, even as a young person, that
I'm, like, edgy and capable.
And I thought she was.
She was.
She, like you said, has a goodsocial awareness.
I really love her as a character.
Like, I love this characterfor someone.
Who is actually quite, like, introverted.
She's quite comfortable in herown skin and self aware in a way
(23:41):
that I don't think any of theother younger characters are at this
Point.
And frankly, sometimes I don'tthink Nancy is.
And Nancy's got a few years onthese kids, right?
Yeah.
Max is a really great additionto the plot.
Even though I don't cast.
Even though I don't alwayslike Max.
I have moments.
But she adds something to thegroup dynamic they needed, which
(24:04):
was a skeptic.
Someone who wasn't immersed intheir D and D world as deeply, but
also someone who is just veryconfident and doesn't care what people
think about her.
Yeah, 100%.
No.
100%.
I love it.
And what do we think aboutBilly's role as an antagonist?
Like, do you think?
(24:24):
I know we have our feelingsaround Billy, so he's introduced
in this moment and he's kindof like not the antagonist because
we still have the shadowmonster as the main antagonist, but
as an antagonist and kind oflike, you know, he's kind of taking
the whole I'm cooler thanSteve and I'm.
I'm the.
I'm the king of the hill inthe high school thing.
(24:46):
Very Teen Wolf, by the way,that basketball scene.
I'm just gonna call out allthe references I see every time I
see them.
Very Teen Wolf.
Right.
What do you think aboutBilly's introduction?
I hate it.
I don't like Billy's character.
I think that they.
And I don't mean that like Idon't like Billy.
I mean, I don't like Billy's character.
I think Billy is a very onedimensional character for an entire
(25:08):
season.
And then they try to give us alittle bit more later, and it just
doesn't work for me.
Like, Billy was not acharacter who I could ever see having
a redemption arc because Billyis such a shithead for so long in
the story.
So the way that Billy treatsSteve Sucks.
But Steve can take it, right?
The way that Billy treats his sister.
(25:31):
Absurd.
How can I ever.
How can I ever, ever, everhave this character redeemed when
he treats his little sisterlike absolute trash?
And then the way that Billygoes to the.
The edge of being racist.
They don't give us any reasonwhy he doesn't like Lucas.
(25:54):
Yeah.
And so Lucas is one of twoblack characters on the show.
Three of you include thepolice officer who works with Hopper.
But I don't even know thatcharacter's name.
So only Erica and Lucas are.
Are characters who are blackwho have.
Who have names and lines.
Right.
(26:14):
He doesn't react as stronglyto seeing his sister with any other
character.
For some reason, she can't bearound Lucas.
But then we're supposed tobelieve, like, it's the.
They've tried to say multipletimes that it's not because Billy
is racist.
Like, I don't.
Yeah, I think.
I think, like, this is a realconversation about audience interpretation
versus the intent of the author.
(26:35):
And even if they're sayingthat that wasn't their intent.
When you place a character ina world and you.
Our world, where we're talkingabout 1980s, we're talking about
less than.
We're talking about less than20 years or about around 20 years
for the civil rights movementand the signing of.
(26:58):
The signing of the CivilRights Act.
There's a lot of still kind ofresidual weirdness.
And we're talking about Indiana.
Right.
And so now there's a couple oftimes where Race comes up, right?
There's, like.
There's the whole this thingthat we're talking about, and then
there's also this bickeringabout who can be Venkman and who
needs to be Winston and Ghostbusters.
(27:19):
Right.
That was funny.
Mike is like, obviously,you're Winston.
Yeah.
Like.
Yeah, right, right.
No, I mean, they obviouslyplay it up, but this is.
This is what I think you'rehitting on is like, there is something
swirling around that they tryto swim away from when it comes to
Race in the commentary afterthey made it.
(27:40):
Maybe it's also because of the.
What was happening in theworld in the moment when this season
dropped.
They were trying to not haveto have those conversations.
Right.
But I do think, like, to me,that doesn't seem like, very clear
as a person watching, as towhy he would have a problem with
Lucas for any other reason.
Right.
That.
That seems.
That seems pretty clear to methat there's something there.
(28:01):
Yeah.
And so I just think they letthe Billy stuff go on too long.
Right.
So Billy comes on the show inseason two.
He's terrible to everybody.
He has no redeeming qualities.
Right.
And then we.
He's not terrible to everybody.
Mrs. Wheeler is.
Is.
That's in season three,though, right?
No.
Oh, no.
Oh, that's right.
It starts in season two.
Starts in season two.
(28:21):
He goes up and he's, like,with the shirt unbuttoned.
He's very happy to see her.
She's coming from, like,getting out of a bath.
Listen.
I mean, they both look good inthat scene, but for the most part,
he's terrible to everyone.
And of course, they give us alittle bit of a taste of his father's
abuse to him so that we knowthat Billy is not doing this in a
vacuum.
This is also based off of his trauma.
(28:42):
Right.
And, and that's.
I think I said last week thatthat that's the overall theme of
the show, is that trauma stays.
It lingers, it grows, it festers.
It's what created the Upsidedown, as far as we can tell.
And so they planted someseeds, but they just made him be
terrible for so long that bythe time we get to that scene in
(29:04):
season three where Elle islearning more about Billy by examining
his memories, by the time weget there, I wasn't, I didn't.
It was hard for me to care.
Like, it wasn't that.
I understand that Billy wasonce a little boy who had a tragic
story, who.
His mother abandoned him basically.
(29:26):
But I wish they would haveshown some of that stuff to us instead
of getting it so late.
We get that, I think midwaythrough season three, and that's
like 10 episodes deep intothis guy being terrible to everybody.
Yeah.
I mean, he is a cartoon.
He's a cartoon villain a lotof the time.
And I think, like, again, butthat's, that's why I drew that.
(29:48):
And like, it was intentional.
Intentional.
Like I grew up on those movies.
Like we all did.
Like, that grew up in thattime period.
But like, you know, likeKarate Kid, Back to the Future with
Biff, like, they were very onedimensional meathead, kind of like
Teen Wolf, like, kind of villains.
Right.
And I think that these guys,the Duffers, are very, very inspired
(30:11):
by these things.
And they call back to those,those, those places.
The thing is, the audience inthis time period has grown to the
point where if you're gonna dothat, it, They're.
They.
We've had Zuko, one of thegreatest redemption arcs ever.
Ever.
Right.
Like, so we.
Jaime Lannister, although,okay, arguably not a.
(30:34):
Good redemption arc arc.
He's not a good redemption arc.
I, I'm owning that.
I'm saying he's not a goodredemption arc at all.
Like, he, he, he gets to theedge and then it falls apart.
But the point is, we as anaudience can't do one dimensional
characters the way we once did.
But they are.
Especially with our villains.
Yeah, especially with our villains.
(30:54):
Like, I can't remember exactlywhat year this season two came out,
but, like, you know, I believeit was before Black Panther.
So it was before we had, youknow, Kale Monger be this like multi
dimensional villain that wassaying stuff that we agreed with.
(31:15):
Right.
Like, some of the audience waslike, yeah, he's making good points,
but it wasn't before we HadMagneto and all, you know, like,
we need our villains.
We need our villains to be alittle bit better than this.
And I think one of the thingsthat this show.
Show has struggled with in thevery beginning, and maybe because
it was supposed to be ananthology show and it wasn't supposed
(31:35):
to be one unified story, is itlike, we don't really understand
the motivations behind themain villain because they're not
really given to us.
We.
It's season four is when welearned that Vecna.
Before that there.
There's the Demogorgons and the.
And the Mind Flayer and, youknow, all of that.
(31:56):
But it's like these are likeamorphous things.
Like, these are not concrete villains.
So Billy is kind of theantagonist where Steve was, right?
And I think because audienceget used to that formula where you
introduce an antagonist andthen he joins the team.
I think we were a little bitexpecting, like, Billy to become
(32:16):
part of the team towards theend of the season.
And the absolute oppositehappens, right?
No, no, no.
100%.
I mean, he gets knocked thefuck out.
He does fuck Steve up again.
Steve just should stop fighting.
Like three season.
Yeah, Free season, Steve getshis ass handed to him.
Yeah, that guy.
(32:38):
Oh, my gosh.
In some of the promo forseason four, I mean, season five,
they.
They have done some interviewswith the various cast members, and
they had all the older teens together.
So Robin, Steve, Nancy andJonathan, all the actors.
And apparently in the JonathanSteve scene, he.
(32:59):
Jonathan really hit Steve twice.
Oh, wow.
He didn't mean to.
He, like, hit him once andthen he was like, oh, my God, I'm
sorry.
And then he hit him again.
And I'm like, yo, they'rereally taking real beatings.
Oh, my gosh, that's hilarious.
I mean, you got to make it real.
(33:20):
You got to make it realistic.
I think characters being onedimensional is something that we
talked about, but I think,like, where they did add some nuance
and, you know, I think, Ithink was with the relationship with
Bob and.
And Will, I really.
It ends up being really toughadvice because it ends up being the
(33:44):
very thing that.
That leads to him beingpossessed by the shadow monster.
But I thought it was.
I thought it was really, youknow, awesome to see this kind of
like, hey, I'm not just.
I'm not just relating to youas a guy that's dating your mom.
I also can relate to you froma standpoint of I was that nerdy
(34:05):
kid, or I was that outcast kidthat people picked on and that Nobody
paid attention to really.
Let me tell you what works forme and what has worked for me.
And I thought that was a. Ithought that was a powerful scene.
Another kind of nod to Bob's character.
I totally agree.
It.
It comes back later as a problem.
Right.
But I don't think it's bad advice.
(34:29):
It's just that Bob didn't knowexactly what he was dealing with.
Right.
Bob thought that Will washaving, like, actual dreams and stuff.
He didn't realize the full weight.
Only Hopper and Joyce reallyknow that of the adults.
Right.
And Dr. Owens.
And so Bob was giving himactually very good advice about facing
(34:50):
down your fear.
The problem is that that fearis also a survival tactic.
And that Will was able to usehis fear of the Upside down to kind
of escape from the forces thatwere trying to possess him.
But then when he has to standhis ground, it turns out it's not
actually just a vision.
Right.
And this is not Bob's fault,in my opinion.
(35:12):
This is Dr. Owen's faultbecause he's the one who planted
this.
Kind of like, be fine.
It's just ptsd.
No, this is like a really realforce that's trying to take Will
over.
And no one really takes thatseriously until Joyce starts to put
the pieces together becauseshe notices in the video again, also,
Bob was the one who told Joyceto look at the video because he was
(35:35):
like, he got bullied.
And you should take a look at that.
And she sees that, and shesees that he's being bullied.
But she also notices theshadow monster in the video, which
I was like, damn choice.
I would have never noticed that.
Yeah, I mean, camcorder VHS'sused to be fuzzy as hell.
Yeah.
You would have thought thatshe was looking at a high def picture.
(35:58):
But, yeah, she noticed stufflike that.
And so Bob is so caring andobserving and really wants.
Not just.
He wants to be part of this family.
He doesn't just want to date Joyce.
He doesn't just want to maybemarry Joyce.
He wants to be this.
To be his family.
And I think he.
He makes real efforts in a waythat we can never imagine.
(36:24):
Hopper, who has kind of waskind of the surrogate dad of season
one.
We can't ever imagine Hopperdoing this stuff.
Right.
He's not good at this stuff.
He's not good at talking tothe kids about how they feel.
You know, he's good atprotecting people, at taking action.
But Bob is more of a personwho's good at the emotional and the
social.
Emotional side of that.
(36:45):
And it also.
It.
I totally agree.
And it also, like, really hitson the fact that in Hawkins, because
of this.
This undercurrent of, like,secrecy and the shadow monster.
And what we eventually findout is Vecna and all the things that
have happened thatconventional parenting wisdom, things
(37:07):
that would have normally.
And that conversation in anormal moment is just a surrogate
parent telling him a goodadvice to like, hey, you can be.
And also foreshadows Bob's ownbravery that he is a brave person.
Right.
That that's who.
That's.
That he grew into being thiskind of brave person.
But it shows you how, youknow, when the Upside down is involved.
(37:31):
It's very hard to, like, gowith, like, the traditional way of
thinking that you have to.
That they're like, that.
That doesn't work in this context.
Yeah.
I love this conversation.
I love.
I love the facing your fears.
And he lives it because hedoes end up facing his fears.
And, you know, we'll talkabout that more.
More later on in.
In the next episode.
Next group of episodes.
(37:51):
Yeah, I think.
I think Lucas.
Let's talk about Lucas'ssister, Erica.
Oh, wait.
Before we get to Erica, I dohave one more thing to say about
Bob.
Yeah.
This is this conversation thatBob has with Joyce about how, like,
nobody would have noticed himin high school.
Like, she didn't even know his name.
(38:11):
I think that's when they'remaking out in the stock room or whatever.
Yeah.
Yeah, it is.
I don't understand why the duffer.
The play throws that there.
Joyce definitely knew hisname, but, like.
Definitely does that how he.
Is that how he felt?
Maybe, like more than, like, hands.
He can't.
So I'm sure if.
If.
If this were my work, I wouldsay, is it worth it to not write
(38:35):
Bob Newby as a character inthe play just because of this one
line?
Probably not.
People get over it.
But I have to mention therewas some retconning here.
This is not this line.
And in the line earlier, Ithink that Nancy says in season one
about how her parents met,they are debunked in the play.
(38:56):
But the Nancy one is not so bad.
Because you're like, oh, kidsdon't always understand the dynamics
between their parents.
Right.
You get pieces of stories or whatever.
This is Bob himself actinglike Joyce wouldn't have known who
he was when we know that fromthe play that Joyce absolutely knew
who he was.
So I don't want to spoil.
I'm not going to spoil theplay, but that's it.
I think that they just werelike, maybe nobody will notice that.
(39:19):
Yeah, that's.
That's fair.
And this is something you toldme about right after you watched
the.
The play that you were worriedabout some of the.
The ways that they had toretcon things, you know, and.
And would change things, butthat it's canon.
So, I mean, if they're saying,hey, this is.
This is part of the world,then it's part of the world.
So, yeah, that.
I guess we'll have to.
We'll look past those things.
Hey, look, we have looked pasta lot in a lot of our fantasy worlds.
(39:42):
It's true.
I mean, this is like a small.
Again, if you're the DufferBrothers and this play is being worked
on, is it worth, like,bringing Bob back is probably more
into the.
Integrating Bob's characterinto the play is probably more important
than this line.
And when I saw the play andwhen Bob Newby walks on stage and
he's introduced that way, thewhole audience clapped.
(40:05):
No other character got thatkind of welcome from the audience.
So obviously this is a belovedcharacter they want to use in the
play.
So it is what it is.
But I had to know that.
And also, I mean, like, look, we've.
We've.
In other fantasy shows, we'veerased whole children, thankfully,
but we have erased them.
Like, it's true.
People.
House of the Dragon.
What up?
(40:25):
Yeah, like, erasing wholechildren and whole people.
So.
Yeah, no, I think.
I think that's.
It's a fair call out, though.
I just think, you know, what,a, like, nerd was such a big thing
in the 80s.
And revenge of the Nerds, oneof my all time favorite, favorite
movies.
Okay.
Small.
(40:46):
Like, I'm tall now, but I was.
I mean, I guess I was tall formy age, but I still felt small and
like, pretty scrawny, big glasses.
When Revenge of the Nerds cameout, it made me feel seen.
I felt seen.
When Revenge of the Nerds cameout, I was like, this is amazing.
Right?
So.
But I. I will say.
(41:07):
I will say that, like it was.
It's pretty unrealistic thatshe would say nerd like that in front
of her mama.
I'm just telling you the waythat the Sinclair parents are written.
Yeah.
Those are not my black parentsin the 80s or the 90s.
No.
Or in fact, today, in 2025.
(41:29):
You think I can call my sistera nerd in front of my mom and just.
Is just cool like that?
No.
We're both grown women.
Okay.
My sister are both grown.
Yeah.
But I love that scene whereshe calls him a nerd.
First of all, it's so funnybecause of the way that she does
it.
It's gifable.
It's.
Erica's so adorable.
And also as an audiencemember, I was like, he's the nerd.
(41:53):
You're obsessed with My Little Pony.
You too, Erica, are into a fandom.
Oh yeah.
Because I don't know if.
I don't know if youngermillennials know this because I'm
an elder millennial.
So I had more of a Gen Xexperience of my early childhood.
(42:14):
There was a My Little Pony show.
My Little Pony movie.
There was.
Oh yeah, My Little Pony was.
It was a fandom.
It was not as big as HarryPotter, but it was a huge fandom.
And I love those movies.
I used to.
I had them all on vh.
Like I used to watch that.
Like, it was the way that Ilike repeat comfort shows now, like
(42:38):
the Good Place or DowntonAbbey or whatever.
My.
But I was definitely in thebeginning stages of also being a
nerd.
So I don't know why Erica.
That's right, She.
I mean, we find out later thatshe's just.
She is very much.
I mean, like you said, she'sgreat at math.
She's.
Oh, Dustin.
Dustin is like.
So who's the nerd now, huh?
Exactly.
(42:59):
Who like Dustin really bringsit back in season three, which I
love because it's a good fullcircle moment.
But it was.
There's so many light hearted mo.
This is kind of a heavy seasonand there's so many light hearted
moments like this that I, thatI laughed out loud, heart like funny
moments.
And so this one was a reallygood one.
The.
(43:20):
The moment when Dustin saysthat three Musketeers is like a top
three candy.
This is egregious.
This is egregious.
I've paused the episode.
Egregious.
It's.
This sent me like, what.
What is actually happeningright now?
Three musketeers.
Three Musketeers is not, isnowhere in.
(43:41):
It's not in the top five.
And for me, when we go top.
Five, it's not in the top 10.
If whenever I went trick ortreating, if I got a three Musketeers,
I immediately put that in mysister's pile.
That's.
That's for my sister.
Let's go.
Our top three.
Top three chocolate candies ofthe 80s.
(44:01):
Top three.
I mean, I don't know if thesewere all around in the 80s, but I'm
gonna assume because most candy.
Candy bars haven't changed that.
They haven't changed that much.
All right, number one, Snickers.
Of course.
I don't care what nobody.
I had the Snickers yesterday.
Yes.
Snickers is still number one.
I don't care what anybody saysSnickers is.
(44:22):
There's something about theway the sweet, the crunchy, the salty
all melt.
Snickers.
Top number, top tier.
Yes.
Number two, Reese's PeanutButter Cups.
We defer here, but I'll giveyou a Reese's Peanut Butter.
Okay.
What's your number two?
What's your number two?
My number two is the chocolatecovered peanut M&M's.
(44:47):
That's my number two.
Yeah, that's a good one.
That's a good one.
Those are good.
They're very good.
They feel good.
They.
There's like, chocolate covered.
Something about the milkchocolate over the peanut.
That's.
That's my number two.
That is.
Those are good.
I forgot about them entirelybecause my number three was gonna
be Almond Joy.
Joys.
(45:08):
I love an Almond Joy.
I know that's controversial.
I know some people thinkAlmond Joy and Mounds, which I hate.
I don't like Mounds.
But Almond Joy is, like, onpar with Reese's with three Musketeers.
Absolutely not.
Absolutely.
I will fight people in thestreet over this.
I enjoy.
Because they're so tiny.
Right.
(45:28):
The other thing about threeMusketeers is they want to give you
a whole bar of nougat.
It's just.
Come on.
It's rough.
But if I'm gonna go in that family.
If I'm gonna go in that family.
If we're going.
This is why I thought threeMusketeers was so egregious.
If I gotta go in that family,my third.
I'm going Milky Way.
I like Milky Way.
I don't like Milky Way, but Ican eat a Milky Way.
(45:50):
The notion of if someone wereto chocolate or a Milky Way, I'm
gonna take the Milky Way.
I'm not turning down the chocolate.
Yeah.
But the notion of no chocolateor three Musketeers, I'm good.
Pass.
Yeah.
No chocolate for me.
I'm.
I will.
It was the wildest thingDustin's ever said, and he's had
(46:11):
some real, real wild things.
I. I actually needed a momentafter he said that.
Candy I was forced to eat.
Candy I was forced to eatbecause, you know, my parents did
go through.
I was a granola kid on some occasions.
So I didn't.
I didn't get.
Yeah, right.
I didn't get access to all of it.
So candy I was forcing was Raisinets.
Now, if I had to, if I like,I, I, I mean, it hurt, it hurts my
(46:33):
soul to say them, even in thisconversation, because they are not
very good.
But as a kid, I was just happyto get them.
I was happy.
I just.
Happy.
Something chocolatey.
I don't think Raisinets are bad.
They're just not my favorite.
Like, I wouldn't pick them,but, you know, shout out to, to Angie,
who is my closest, one of myclosest friends.
(46:55):
She used to get Raisinets atthe movies and I used to have some.
Yeah, they're good.
I, you know, that was like her.
She would get some Raisinetsand I think some Twizzlers and we
would share them.
And I never complained becausethey're perfectly fine.
Would I pick Raisinets?
No.
No.
Me either.
But no.
Yeah, but they're, they'reperfectly acceptable.
I can eat a few of those.
(47:15):
Yeah.
Okay.
All right.
So let's talk about ourtakeaways besides candy in this episode
and what we learned.
What did we learn in thisepisode that kind of sticks with
you?
That carries through maybe inother episodes and the rest of the
series?
So I think, I know that peopleare probably annoyed of this because
we've talked about this manytimes at this point and this is only
(47:38):
our third episode on StrangerThings, but I do think that I just
want to go through the Voidand the Will's interaction with the
Upside down, because I dothink this is important.
Yeah.
So the fact that Will is kindof a bridge between the Upside down
and Hawkins is not onlyimportant now, but is going to be
(48:00):
important for the rest of the series.
It comes back in season three,it comes up in season four, and I
absolutely think it's going tobe important in season five.
And his relationship with theUpside down is really different than
Elle's relationship with allof her.
Her powers.
So Elle can explore people's minds.
(48:22):
She can enter the Void to find people.
Those are distinct powers, asfar as I can tell.
She's able to find people inthe Void.
She's able to enter people's minds.
I'm not quite clear on how herpowers work in either, but she's
able to do these things.
But when she finds she canlocate people, but she.
It's a one way connection.
(48:43):
Will is not having a one wayconnection here.
And in fact, Will'sconnection, he can both sense the
other side, the Upside Down.
But the Upside down can alsouse Will, which they will later in
order to spy on what the gangis doing.
Right.
And so Will becomes a weaponof the Upside down in this season.
(49:06):
And it doesn't happen tilllater episodes, but we're seeing
a glimpse of it early inthese, in these first five episodes
that Will, the connectionisn't one sided, it's a two way street.
And that Will can be possessed.
I wondered in my second watchof season two is if Will can be used
(49:27):
as a weapon for the Upsidedown, can the gang then use Will
as a weapon for the right side up?
Yeah, I mean, here's somethingthat indicates that because we see
L, that they must be using theexperimentation that they did on
(49:49):
Terry had to be for a reasonalong with what they're doing with
L. And what we find out isthere's a concept I'm thinking about,
like, you know, memory as a weapon.
Like think about that withWill and Terry, that they're both
trapped in some sort of way in memories.
And that trap with memory isreally strong.
(50:09):
And we've talked about thisbefore with the songs and the other
things, but Terry, as we gointo more detail later, she's like
trapped in her own memories.
And you could connect kind oflike that to the show itself and
connection to our memories.
We've been referencing allthese movies, nostalgia, things like
that.
But it's also, I think it'salso important because I think like
(50:35):
this indicates that memoryplays a role in how to handle or
affect the Upside down.
And that memory in the rightside up, like the ability to use
your memory in the right sideup and cultivate like, kind of like,
(50:56):
oh, I'm going to this thoughtwe'll see that later on can in fact
impact what happens in theUpside Down.
So I think like, yeah, I thinklike that's one question that comes
up with that for me that Itook away.
And I also wonder we've talkedabout time.
Was Will always meant to bepossessed in by the Mind Flayer because
(51:16):
of this two way ability thathe has and his connection to memory,
was that always what was goingto happen?
This kind of goes to that timeloop thing we talked about in a previous
episode.
Was it always going to be that way?
You know.
So if we take what we learnedin season one and we look at season
(51:39):
two and Will's experience, Ithink we have to assume that Will
was always planned to be usedin this way.
But maybe not exactly.
Maybe it didn't turn outexactly the way that Vecna had planned
(52:03):
for him because I think hethought he would have more Time with
Will in the Upside down inseason one.
And because Will was notcompletely defenseless, he.
That plan was interrupted.
But I do think that Will wasalways supposed to have some kind
(52:24):
of role in being like a bridgebetween the worlds and maybe being
what Billy later becomes.
Right.
Possessed and then able totake out actions that help the Upside
down have a.
Have a physical footing in theright side up.
Maybe that was originally theplan, but yeah, I think the answer
(52:48):
to your question is yes.
I think this was planned, butnot ex.
It didn't pan out exactly howit was planned.
Yeah, because the plan was.
The plan was interrupted.
Right, right.
I, I totally agree.
Is this a parallel, this thingthat we're talking about, this two
way of being.
(53:09):
How connected is that?
You know, they draw a parallelto D and D. They start talking about
true sight and, you know, itresembles that aspect of Dungeons
and Dragons.
You know, full disclosure, I'mnot a.
This is not.
Should not be surprised.
Dungeon Dragons was supercontroversial in the 80s.
(53:32):
Who could play, who couldn't.
I didn't get a chance to playlater on.
It was, it was, you know, it.
Became more normalized, Ithink, when I was in high school.
But I remember when I was inlike elementary and middle school,
it was still kind of like,Like a demon game.
Yeah.
But when I was in high school,I knew lots of people who played
(53:52):
it openly.
Right.
100 in high school, that Iwould say.
But I think that was aroundthe time that like Marilyn Manson
was normalized.
So like, like sort of likeweird goth culture.
And I don't mean weird to be derogatory.
I mean, that's how it was described.
Like people saw a newsubculture coming out where it was
like, okay to be weird.
It was okay to do things thatweren't mainstream.
(54:13):
But that was, you know, in the90s and the early aughts.
Yeah, it was.
I mean, that's why I thinkthat a character like Lucas and the
fact that we've kind of dancedaround, you know, they, they don't
really.
They say, oh, well, you know,this wasn't because he was black,
that he didn't like him andblase, blah, blah.
And Lucas's character is revolution.
It's a, it's a, it's a, Ablack character in the suburbs playing
(54:33):
DND a lot.
I know through experience that.
I'm not saying that waseveryone's experience, but a lot
of people's experience becauseof like the concern around the demonic
portion of it didn't, didn'treally in the Black community.
It didn't.
It didn't take us strong ahold as.
As what we're.
What.
What others might have done.
So I. I would say also.
(54:56):
So I don't know a lot aboutTrue Sight, but I do is why I say
all that.
But I do know that it'sdescribed in the episode as what
Will is experiencing.
Did you.
Do you have any takes on thator thoughts on that that you want
to expound upon?
I think it's interesting thatfrom what I understand from D and
(55:16):
D, and I want everyone to.
Again, we are no experts on Dand D. I actually had to check some
of the research I'd done witha friend who started playing D and
D during the pandemic.
She never even played it as a.
As a kid.
She started playing it as an adult.
But basically, True Sight is acharacter who has True sight in D
(55:38):
and D is able to see throughillusions and other planes.
But it's not in the same waythat El can see through illusions
and visit other planes.
It's.
It's that they can interact as well.
That it's not like it over.
It overlaps with their regular reality.
It's not just like they canpeek in.
(56:00):
And so I think that that'ssomething that we have to note.
You know, like, Will, we.
I think we've said thisalready, but Will is very important,
a very important character inseasons one and two.
And then he kind of takes aback seat in seasons three and four.
But I think these are the mostimportant seasons going into season
five.
I really think that.
(56:21):
That.
Yeah, that the.
The season.
How can I put this?
For people to okay the HungerGames series.
I think seasons one and twoare the Hunger Games and Catching
Fire, and then the seasonsthree and four are the Mockingjay,
(56:45):
which is kind of like, youknow, if you're thinking about the
movies, Mockingjay Part one iskind of just setting up for.
For the conclusion, which isMockingjay Part two.
Yeah, I think of that.
That foundation in seasons oneand two being so important to whatever's
(57:06):
gonna happen in the big finalein season five, even maybe more so
than what happens in season three.
No, I can see that.
And Will is such a.
Will plays a pivotal role inseason three, but only it in a couple
of moments.
Otherwise, he kind of fades back.
Like he's frustrated becausein season three because his friends
(57:28):
are, you know, all about theirgirls or whatever, but he doesn't
really have as much to do withthe magic until.
Until it's important.
Until he's using it as a warning.
Right.
And so I think it's importantto just note that, like this true
sight that he has, he stillhas it.
Even though, as we'll discussin our next episode, they managed
(57:51):
to banish the Mind Flayer fromWill's body.
He still has that connection.
He's still the bridge.
So I don't think that's going anywhere.
They've reminded us multipletimes that he's a bridge.
Yeah.
Living like he's a bridge and not.
Not just a victim.
Like, sometimes it's easy toframe Will as a.
As a victim.
I think one of the otherthemes that I would say I take.
(58:13):
Take away.
I mentioned it earlier, but Idon't want to, like, leave speaking
about Will without that themethat we've been talking about about
memory, but also that he.
He references now memories,which I think in being the Bridge,
they're.
They're visions, but they'realso invasive experiences.
So those now memories.
(58:34):
I don't know how to reallydescribe what he's saying there other
than, like, when that scenethat we spoke about early in this
episode about it being like,you know, everyone's seen the real
world and he's seen the MindFlayer, but he's also seen.
He's also in the real.
In the right side up.
I don't know.
It's like the shadow monsteruses those now memories to infiltrate
(58:55):
and control him in this season.
And it kind of blurs.
It blurs that present, thepast, the.
The Upside down to the rightside up.
And then you can see how thatmirrors where Terry's at because
she's in a loop.
Like, she's totally in a loop when.
When.
When Elle goes to find her.
And it's like, you know, it'sa psychic loop.
(59:16):
It's like she.
At one moment over and overand over and over and over again.
And we know not even one moment.
Fragments.
Yeah.
Of a mo.
Of multiple moments are.
She's just kind of stuck inthem and she can't.
She can't get out of the loop.
So she's physically present inthis world.
(59:37):
Right.
But she's lost in her mind.
Right.
Right.
So I just think those arethings that I took away from the
world Esteem that.
That there's, you know, that,you know, there is something about
the memory that anchors.
There's a way that you.
The Upside down and thesescientists can make it a prison.
There's a way that.
That the Upside down hasworked to blur the line for Will.
(01:00:01):
I think we've talked a lotabout the grief and trauma pieces
of it, but I think that griefand trauma play a part on memories.
Right.
How you experience somethingin your body, how you think about
it will impact the way thatyou remember it.
So I think those things arekind of connected as well.
(01:00:23):
What are the takeaways?
You have the fact that inseason two, everybody is dealing
with the events of season one.
You've got Mike grieving,Elle, you've got Will still dealing
with.
With the repercussions ofhaving gone through this terrible
(01:00:44):
experience.
You have Nancy carrying theweight of Barb's death.
Everybody is just livingthrough this trauma.
And so the.
The shadow of that firstseason stretches into every single
storyline.
And the grief and traumalinger and they shape everyone's
(01:01:06):
choices, good or bad, provingthat the upside down, the monsters,
the scary things don'tactually have to be present to still
have an effect.
And it makes me wonder, evenin the case that, let's say our.
(01:01:28):
Our folks are victorious atthe end of season five and they don't
nobody, they don't loseanybody else, and they're.
They're still going to carrythe trauma forever.
Yeah.
I mean, and yeah, that's fair.
That's.
I agree.
I agree that, that that's a soreal, man.
What.
It's a.
(01:01:48):
It's a beautiful story.
It's a heavy story.
It's.
It's a scary story.
It's a try.
And so in moments, it'striumphant and you feel.
It's so.
It's.
It's why we're here.
It's what we love about this.
That's why we're glad to becovering it.
And yeah, we.
That'll.
That'll do it for us, this episode.
(01:02:08):
So thank you so much forhanging out with us in Hawkins.
It is one of our favoriteworlds, I gotta say.
So, you know, happy to bedoing this.
And me too.
Yeah.
Happy to be doing this.
We've talked about it foryears and so to be actually doing
it, it feels.
It feels good.
So, yeah.
So hit us up if you got anythoughts on the episode or thoughts
(01:02:31):
about the world or any of thecharacters, hit us up@kinfolkloremail.com
kinfolklore pod on Instagramand on Twitter.
Yeah.
And we will see you next time.
Bye, everyone.
Welcome back to Kin Folklore.
We're diving into the fall of1984 in Hawkins, Indiana, where the
arcade is hot.
Ghostbuster costumes are cooler.
Are they?
I mean.
I mean, I love them as a. I'mnot gonna.
I thought they were dope.
Who are you gonna call?
Them.
I thought they were dope.
Who are you gonna call?
You know, little cringy to bethe only ones wearing it.
(00:29):
And traumatic supernatur arejust part of growing up.
I'm Andrea.
I'm Paul.
And these first five chaptersof season two of Stranger Things.
Almost a year after the eventsof season one.
But Hawkins hasn't shaken offthe Upside Down.
Still, like, hanging on.
It's like a bad ex.
(00:50):
Will's back, but not quite okay.
He's coughing out things wesaw at the end of last season.
New kids are in town, andthere's a shadow in the sky that
no one's ready for.
Today's episode, we continueour journey with season two of Stranger
Things, chapters one through five.
We explore the strangevisions, disgusting creatures, and
(01:16):
extremely questionable decisions.
Very, very questionable.
Mostly of Dustin.
Mostly of Dustin.
As we continue to explore theright side up and the upside down
of Hawkins.
As a reminder, while we arediscussing chapters one through five
specific, we will be chattingabout everything that's happened
(01:39):
in chapter in seasons onethrough four.
So if you are listening tothis or watching this, you might
want to come back when youfinish your entire binge.
Kin Folklore will have adult content.
If you're not in the marketfor, like, a different color plastic
jack or lantern, you don'treally like orange.
(02:00):
You're really looking for green.
Or maybe even the stock roomshenanigans of one Bob Newby and
Joyce Byers, then you've cometo the wrong place.
But if you like the idea ofpickup lines involving rolling your
tongue through your missingteeth, then you've come to the right
place.
Shout out to Dustin, man, hehad a rough season.
(02:20):
He made.
He made bad choices.
Rough, rough season.
All right, so let's get intothe summary.
Chapters one and two.
Mad Max and Trick or treat freak.
A year after Will'sdisappearance, Hawkins looks normal
on the surface, but cracks arealready showing.
(02:41):
Will is haunted by visions ofthe Upside down, though.
The new doctor at the lab, Dr.Owens, brushes it off as PTSD, which
is kind of a big deal.
But he's like, it's fine.
It's just.
So what's a little ptsd?
Ptsd?
You went to a whole other dimension.
You know, just shake it off.
No big deal.
(03:01):
They'll be all right.
Hopper keeps 11 hidden away ina cabin, but she is so restless and
desperate to reconnect withthe boys.
Speaking of the boys, they'readding a girl into the mix when the
group dynamic shift when a newstudent, Max, rolls into town with
(03:24):
her stepbrother, Billy.
Still don't like Billy.
I don't care about hisredemption arc.
No.
No, I don't.
There's no redemption for.
For Billy's foolishness.
Yeah.
Meanwhile, Nancy and Steve'srelationship falters under the weight
of Barb's death and all of thelies that they're forced to tell.
They can't even acknowledgethat Barb is dead.
(03:46):
By Halloween, the fissures deepen.
Mike is still drowning in hisgrief for Elle.
Will's visions grow darker,culminating in the first glimpse
of the enormous shadow monster.
And Dustin makes a reallyquestionable choice when he keeps
a strange creature named Dart.
(04:08):
So adorable.
It's adorable, but it's a.
Dart is not adorable.
Dart is not cute.
Dart is disgusting.
Just to look.
Oh, Billy reminds me of likethe, the villains in Karate Kid.
Every time I see this season,I'm like, he's got.
He's like all the villains inKarate Kid.
He does kind of have that vibe.
(04:29):
And then in chapter threethrough five, Pollywog, Will the
wise and Dig Dug, Dustin's newpet Dart becomes the center of trouble.
When Will recognizes it is acreature from the Upside down, the
warnings come a little too late.
Will is overtaken by theshadow monster in the field.
That is a wild scene.
(04:49):
Like to just see him like Ilove that scene.
It's such a good, well shot SC scene.
Like.
Yeah.
To see like him in the Upsidedown and also in the real world and
them not being able to likebreak through and see what's happening,
it's really.
Yeah, it was, it was kind of a.
The first reminder in thisseason for me anyway of what they
can do with their effects withtheir camera work.
(05:12):
I just, I love in the editingbecause the Joyce trying to get to
him and all of that plays outso well.
Truly amazing.
So Will is overtaken and it's leaving.
Joyce is terrified by what shesees and she sees.
And as she sees, Will isstarting to change.
(05:32):
Like he's not quite himself.
He begins to have differentlike things that feel a little bit
off.
Hopper is chasing down themystery of a rotten.
Of rotten crops.
So things are starting to rotinside the town.
So he's getting all theseweird calls.
He goes out.
It's strange.
He discovers through thismystery, the spreading tunnels beneath
Hawkins that are happening,all coming from the labs, only to
(05:54):
be trapped inside one of these tunnels.
Goes in, you know, does thehopper thing.
He's going to figure it outall on his own, doesn't have any
backup, decides that he can do it.
He's a.
He's a one man army of purepolicing force with coffee and donuts
on the.
It's almost like he doesn'thave a child who has superpowers
(06:16):
at his cabin that could havehelped him.
Yeah, no, because he's gonnado it on his own.
He's telling.
He's like, he's leaving her lockdown.
He.
He was.
As he was leaving Eggos forElle, he was also eating them as
well.
In the sense that, like, this is.
This is not.
This is not.
You know what I mean?
Like, it's like he's not infighting shape, is what I'm trying
to say.
To be doing this all on hisown, as we find out in the next season,
we'll talk about that.
(06:36):
Anyway, at the same time,Eleven pushes back on her complete
isolation.
It's actually reallyconcerning how he's treating the
situation.
I know he's, like, scared.
But she's very isolated, andI'm glad that she pushes back.
Her search for answers takesher to Terry Ives, where she discovers
the devastating truth of herstolen childhood.
(06:58):
Nancy and Jonathan, determinedto give Barb justice.
They team up and they go on asearch to one of our favorite conspiracy
theorists, Murray, to find away to bring the lab into light.
And all that's happened, andDustin realizing really rapidly that
Dart is rapidly evolving intosomething dangerous.
(07:18):
He turns to the most unlikelyally he could find.
Steve Harrington.
Reminder that Dart ate Muse.
I'm just.
He's so cute.
Oh, adore.
Poor little Dart.
Oh, he ate the cat.
He ate.
He actually ate Dustin'sfamily pet.
Oh, my gosh.
(07:39):
Okay.
Dart, in my opinion, likeBilly, is a standard for the Karate
Kid.
I see all these references.
This is how you can see alltheir influences.
Dart is a standard for Gremlins.
Like, this is Gremlins.
Like, they give you.
Like, And.
And I think.
I think the eating of the catis a metaphor for the Gremlins fans
(08:00):
who hated Gizmo.
Like, there's a lot ofGremlins fans who hated Gizmo.
Like, legit.
They were like, oh, he's very.
He's cute.
He's adorable.
And so Muse.
I also did not like Gizmo.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
But I like Muse.
Muse.
Muse.
Muse did nothing wrong.
He did nothing wrong.
So let's talk about it.
Let's pour one out for the catwho took the L in as a stand in for
(08:26):
one furry gremlin.
Muse, an adorable cat.
The best companion to Mrs. Henderson.
This goes out to all ourfallen homies.
Yo.
(08:46):
Don'T let the gym get likethat, y'.
All.
And the unnamed lab employeesin the military that perished between
chapter four and chapter five.
There's always some unnamedmotherfuckers out here.
That they never know who thesepeople are.
They're just unnamed, justextras that died at the lab.
They get it.
They get the copy from theiragent and it's like, okay, here's
the thing.
(09:06):
You're going to be in Stranger Things.
Here's the other thing.
You're going to die with nolines and just look terrified.
Can you look terrified?
Also, you might die off screen.
It's a possibility that you'llhave a single line in one episode
and never see you again.
Oh, my gosh.
So these first few episodes,you know, they set up a lot of relationship
(09:29):
dynamics that are going to bekind of.
I mean, there was some seedsplanted in season one, but this really
sets us on the trajectory.
I think season two reallystarts us with the relationship dynamics
down the road that we'll see in.
In season three and seasonfour and possibly, I'm assuming,
in season five.
Right.
So let's talk about one thatwas a new, like, we didn't know was
(09:51):
even happening.
When he walks in the store,I'm kind of like, who the hell is
this guy?
Let's talk about Bob and let'stalk about Joyce.
Like, I actually.
I mean, I like.
I like Bob.
I like Bob and Joyce together.
At first, I'm kind of like,you know, the fan of me.
It's kind of like, oh, Ithought Hopper and Joyce had a thing.
But I like Bob.
I think Bob is a good dude.
(10:11):
I love Bob.
Bob is such a great characterto introduce and also has an impact
on the story beyond his time.
He's only in one season.
They had to have known thatthey weren't going to have him for
more than, you know, the.
I think he's in six of thenine episodes or whatever.
(10:35):
He's a really good character.
Patty Newby is an importantcharacter that we learn about later
in season four.
That's his.
Bob's, I think, younger sisterwho did.
And so I think that he's areally impactful character.
But I also think it givesJoyce something else.
(10:58):
Another person that isn't justher boys and Hopper to have a dynamic
with.
And I think considering thatwhen this show was initially developed,
Joyce was really the main character.
Right.
Like, that they give.
There's another adult character.
Joyce has another.
Has an adult relationship in this.
(11:20):
That's not just her banterwith Hopper.
Her entire world still centersaround Will and his recovery, but
she gets adult stuff to do.
She has a boyfriend.
She seems happy.
Right.
Like, that's the thing.
It seems.
It seems like everyone'shealing on the outside, but actually
right beneath that firstlevel, everyone's still really traumatized
(11:41):
about what happened the year before.
Yeah.
And I think, like, what Ireally love is in that scene we referenced
in the adult content, warningis like, he comes in, they're making
out.
You know, there's like this.
They establish their desirefor each other.
But then there's somethingelse that's really powerful in that
(12:02):
moment, is like, when theysay, hey, we're going to have movie
night tonight.
And he's like, hey, it'sJonathan's time to pick.
He, like, reminds Joyce of that.
Like, he's attentive to thechildren and, like, not like he doesn't.
He's.
He's there, like, connectingwith Joyce, but also trying to forge
a relationship with her boys,which I think is beautiful.
And it's like, it shows thathe's just.
Just his character.
(12:22):
He shows up as a really gooddude and just like, wanting to, like,
like, have family.
And he.
You can see that he caresabout Joyce and her kids.
So 100%.
He's a.
He would have been a very goodstepdad because he's trying really
hard.
And even though Jonathan doesn't.
Is more skeptical of him.
I think just because Jonathanis older and his own.
(12:45):
He's been hurt before by Lonnie.
And I think Jonathan is justlike a little bit more of a cynical
character.
Will is giving it a shot.
Right.
He's like, this dude is corny,but he makes mom happy.
I'm going to try to make it work.
Yeah, no, for sure, for sure.
And then there's some otherinteresting relationship dynamics
that have to deal with, like, relationships.
(13:07):
There's a face off betweenDustin and Lucas, who are attempting
to win the hand of a personthey didn't even meet yet.
They haven't had aconversation with Max.
Maxine, she is one of the newkids in town and Dustin and Lucas
are really, really competing.
And she's just struggling tobe accepted by the group, but also
(13:32):
struggling to find her way in.
Hawkins as like the new person.
Like, what do you think ofthis whole dynamic with the three
of them?
First of all, what an iconicentrance into the show Max has.
She is just.
I think Max, of all thecharacters that we meet over the
course of the four seasons, Ithink Max is probably the most important
(13:52):
character that we meet becauseso when you think about Max, like
a lot of the rest of the storydoesn't unfold without her, which
is not really true about Robinor I guess Murray is kind of like.
Robin and Murray are important.
No disrespect to them or their characters.
Bob is an important character, too.
I just said that.
Right.
But Max feels like a linchpin character.
(14:15):
Like, if you pull her out,some of it starts kind of like unraveling.
This dynamic between Dustin,Lucas and Max in the beginning half
of the season is so funny to me.
Yeah.
I actually thought Dustin wasgoing to win this one.
And maybe if Dustin hadn'tbeen running around after that disgusting,
slimy little animal.
(14:36):
You're blaming Dart.
You're blaming Dart for thefall of Dustin's ability to scoop
Max.
I'm just saying Lucas was ableto focus.
Lucas did focus Lucas out here.
Dustin was out here chasingaround some amphibian.
Yeah, yeah.
That he.
He found in the trash.
He literally found it in the trash.
(14:58):
But here's the question.
Lucas is talking about thatlife, but Dustin is out here living
it.
He's dealing with the animalsthat are coming from the Upside Down.
Later on in another season, hewill do the whole science project.
Lucas is out here spilling thebeans about things that they were
not supposed to let leave theparty to win Max over to.
(15:20):
That was his smooth move islike, here it is.
Let me give you all thesecrets of the party and let you
into.
If I'm Mike and I'm Dustin,I'm calling party foul.
I'm calling a party foul.
This is a party foul.
It's a little rough.
Listen, you know that myrelationship with Lucas not always
the best.
Like if.
If I have to pick from thatfamily, Erica is the character she.
(15:42):
Because.
Because.
Because as many of our friendsin failure said, there are very.
You as a child and Erica havea lot of crossover.
Okay.
Just because I also liked MyLittle Pony who didn't like.
Honestly who was born in the80s and didn't like My Little Pony.
(16:04):
But it's not just the MyLittle Pony.
It's the witty repartee.
It's the unwilling to sufferfoolishness of the friends any of
time that you and you and.
And my Sister would.
Would be like, oh, no, we'renot putting up with Paul's crap.
This is an Erica move.
This is.
This is a very, very connectedErica, who I. I relate to Lucas on
that level, and that's whereit stops.
(16:26):
I mean, I. I'll take that as a win.
Erica's much better at maththan I ever was, though.
Yeah, that's like, struggleswith math.
Erica's apparently a math servant.
Like, I. I don't know.
I can't wait till we get toseason three.
Erica.
Season three Erica is.
Is not peak Erica, but verygood Erica is where we really start
(16:46):
to understand more.
I really hope we get, like,enough Erica in season five, because
she kind of falls to thewayside in season four.
Yeah, for sure.
I agree.
So, I mean, like, so.
So there's that whole dynamicthat's going on with.
With Dustin and.
And Max and.
And Lucas, and then, you know,there's like, one of the.
(17:07):
The anchors of this seasonbecause it sets things in motion
for Elle's journey is this.
This.
This relationship with Hoppergetting a second chance at being
a dad, but also.
But also kind of like,overdoing it, being overprotective
based on loss, like his.
His inability to, like,really, like, you know, make square
(17:31):
what happened to hisbiological daughter.
And El, like, holding him tohis word, like, hey, you said this
is going to happen.
This was going to happen.
And she's been a little bit ofa brat, you know, with superpowers.
I mean, only thing I wouldgive props to Hopper about is, like,
you've seen this child dothings that.
And you're out here, like,beefing and chest puffed out, like,
(17:51):
yo, you not doing this.
This, that.
That.
I'm like, she can throw youacross the room with her mind, like,
what are you doing?
So it shows that they've atleast forged a relationship, that
she wouldn't use her powers tohurt him in that way.
Totally.
You know what I mean?
Like, so, no, she definitelydoesn't mind using them to remind.
(18:13):
Yeah.
That they exist.
Right.
But I. I think, again, this isanother thing the show excels at.
There's something for everybody.
I think that.
That my experience of seasontwo, when it came out, was different
than my experience now becauseI now have under my belt a lot of
my friends complaining abouttheir preteen children, and I'm like,
(18:38):
yeah, this is very relatable.
Like, the kind of the.
The inability to explain rules to.
To them and make themunderstand it.
I think that's very relatable.
Sometimes things are justdangerous, and we don't really want
to explain why.
And sometimes things are sodangerous that we want children to
(19:00):
just listen to us and like.
But on the flip side, Elle hasbeen locked up her entire life.
She's finally met some friendsand connected to some people that
she deeply cares about, andshe's now being kept away from the
entire world.
She's not allowed to leavethis cabin.
She's not allowed to even have the.
The curtains open during the day.
(19:22):
She.
She's basically learningeverything about what it is to be,
you know, out of the lab from television.
It's a terrible existence foranyone, but especially a girl her
age.
But also one who has, like, aton of trauma about being locked
up all the time.
Right.
I agree.
And I feel bad for Elle withall of that.
I do not feel bad for Mike.
(19:43):
I just do not.
I just.
No, actually, to be fair, Ithink it's more later that I start
to really get irritated withMike at this point.
I think I'm reading too muchof season three into my feelings
around this whole separation part.
But if I were.
If I.
If I were to say anything inthis part, I feel like Mike has connected
(20:06):
with Elle and he misses L. Buthe also is.
I think there's a.
There's something that's stillkind of there where I think, like,
they.
It's.
It's.
It's.
It's the avatar problem.
I'm not ready to see them allboot up in season two.
Like.
Like, I wasn't for, like,Katara and Aang.
It's like, come on.
This is the second time thisweek that somebody has brought up
(20:27):
Katara and Aang to me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Just talking about youngpeople who don't need to have booze.
Right.
This is where I'm at with it.
I'm like, you're.
It's just too much, right?
Like, so.
I don't know.
I, I'm.
I, I, I guess where I.
Where I land is like, that.
That, you know, Elle.
I'm glad that they gave her the.
(20:47):
The whole arc for Elle is about.
In this episode is, like,making peace with the past and understanding
that, like, her.
Who her family is like, that.
Her newfound family, like,these groups of people.
And I think without thatseparation, that journey doesn't
happen.
Right.
She's going to be.
So she has to realize thevalue of her relationship with Mike
(21:07):
and her relationship with Willand Hopper and Joyce and Lucas and
Dustin.
And let's be honest, Elle kindof fucked Max up at the beginning
of their Relationship.
She was like, yeah, I'm not a fan.
You're talking to Mike.
It's a little bit crazy.
So little.
Little wild.
I love that scene so muchbecause I love the fact that Mike
(21:28):
is actually telling, like,Max, who is the most emotionally
mature of all the kids.
Right, right.
Knows that Mike doesn't likeher and doesn't want her to be part
of the party.
She can feel that right away.
Right.
She.
I also think there's a pointwhere it's acknowledged that Will
doesn't seem to care either way.
So Dustin and Lucas want her in.
Will is kind of like, whatever.
(21:49):
If that's what they want,that's what they want.
But Mike is like, no, if agirl's coming in, it can only be
mine.
Yeah, exactly.
Right?
This is what I'm saying.
But.
But Max is sitting there, andshe's like, how can I.
How can I make him understand?
I'm not trying to take.
Ls, please.
And she engages him in thisconversation about, like, it seems
(22:13):
like, l was pretty cool.
Tell me more.
And he's doing that.
And then Ella's like, omg,yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You are acknowledging theexistence of another girl.
She must fall.
She must fall off theskateboard right away.
It's.
It's too much.
I.
And I.
You know, and I think.
(22:34):
You know, I think, like, yousaid something about Max earlier
also about, like, you know,how consequential she is to the storyline.
And, you know, we see thisplay out with, like, what happens
with Billy and, like, herbackstory of where she's come from
and her parents and all ofthat stuff.
But I think the other piece ofit is how she clearly completes the
(22:57):
party, like, in a way that youdidn't know that the party needed.
And she also assigns herself a role.
She's like, okay, well, ifElle was the mage, I'm the zoomer.
Like, I'm gonna be like, the.
I'm, like, the person who's,like, gonna push us through danger
or take risk or, you know, like.
And I thought that was prettyinteresting to see a person that's,
(23:18):
like, I know myself wellenough, even as a young person, that
I'm, like, edgy and capable.
And I thought she was.
She was.
She, like you said, has a goodsocial awareness.
I really love her as a character.
Like, I love this characterfor someone.
Who is actually quite, like, introverted.
She's quite comfortable in herown skin and self aware in a way
(23:41):
that I don't think any of theother younger characters are at this
Point.
And frankly, sometimes I don'tthink Nancy is.
And Nancy's got a few years onthese kids, right?
Yeah.
Max is a really great additionto the plot.
Even though I don't cast.
Even though I don't alwayslike Max.
I have moments.
But she adds something to thegroup dynamic they needed, which
(24:04):
was a skeptic.
Someone who wasn't immersed intheir D and D world as deeply, but
also someone who is just veryconfident and doesn't care what people
think about her.
Yeah, 100%.
No.
100%.
I love it.
And what do we think aboutBilly's role as an antagonist?
Like, do you think?
(24:24):
I know we have our feelingsaround Billy, so he's introduced
in this moment and he's kindof like not the antagonist because
we still have the shadowmonster as the main antagonist, but
as an antagonist and kind oflike, you know, he's kind of taking
the whole I'm cooler thanSteve and I'm.
I'm the.
I'm the king of the hill inthe high school thing.
(24:46):
Very Teen Wolf, by the way,that basketball scene.
I'm just gonna call out allthe references I see every time I
see them.
Very Teen Wolf.
Right.
What do you think aboutBilly's introduction?
I hate it.
I don't like Billy's character.
I think that they.
And I don't mean that like Idon't like Billy.
I mean, I don't like Billy's character.
I think Billy is a very onedimensional character for an entire
(25:08):
season.
And then they try to give us alittle bit more later, and it just
doesn't work for me.
Like, Billy was not acharacter who I could ever see having
a redemption arc because Billyis such a shithead for so long in
the story.
So the way that Billy treatsSteve Sucks.
But Steve can take it, right?
The way that Billy treats his sister.
(25:31):
Absurd.
How can I ever.
How can I ever, ever, everhave this character redeemed when
he treats his little sisterlike absolute trash?
And then the way that Billygoes to the.
The edge of being racist.
They don't give us any reasonwhy he doesn't like Lucas.
(25:54):
Yeah.
And so Lucas is one of twoblack characters on the show.
Three of you include thepolice officer who works with Hopper.
But I don't even know thatcharacter's name.
So only Erica and Lucas are.
Are characters who are blackwho have.
Who have names and lines.
Right.
(26:14):
He doesn't react as stronglyto seeing his sister with any other
character.
For some reason, she can't bearound Lucas.
But then we're supposed tobelieve, like, it's the.
They've tried to say multipletimes that it's not because Billy
is racist.
Like, I don't.
Yeah, I think.
I think, like, this is a realconversation about audience interpretation
versus the intent of the author.
(26:35):
And even if they're sayingthat that wasn't their intent.
When you place a character ina world and you.
Our world, where we're talkingabout 1980s, we're talking about
less than.
We're talking about less than20 years or about around 20 years
for the civil rights movementand the signing of.
(26:58):
The signing of the CivilRights Act.
There's a lot of still kind ofresidual weirdness.
And we're talking about Indiana.
Right.
And so now there's a couple oftimes where Race comes up, right?
There's, like.
There's the whole this thingthat we're talking about, and then
there's also this bickeringabout who can be Venkman and who
needs to be Winston and Ghostbusters.
(27:19):
Right.
That was funny.
Mike is like, obviously,you're Winston.
Yeah.
Like.
Yeah, right, right.
No, I mean, they obviouslyplay it up, but this is.
This is what I think you'rehitting on is like, there is something
swirling around that they tryto swim away from when it comes to
Race in the commentary afterthey made it.
(27:40):
Maybe it's also because of the.
What was happening in theworld in the moment when this season
dropped.
They were trying to not haveto have those conversations.
Right.
But I do think, like, to me,that doesn't seem like, very clear
as a person watching, as towhy he would have a problem with
Lucas for any other reason.
Right.
That.
That seems.
That seems pretty clear to methat there's something there.
(28:01):
Yeah.
And so I just think they letthe Billy stuff go on too long.
Right.
So Billy comes on the show inseason two.
He's terrible to everybody.
He has no redeeming qualities.
Right.
And then we.
He's not terrible to everybody.
Mrs. Wheeler is.
Is.
That's in season three,though, right?
No.
Oh, no.
Oh, that's right.
It starts in season two.
Starts in season two.
(28:21):
He goes up and he's, like,with the shirt unbuttoned.
He's very happy to see her.
She's coming from, like,getting out of a bath.
Listen.
I mean, they both look good inthat scene, but for the most part,
he's terrible to everyone.
And of course, they give us alittle bit of a taste of his father's
abuse to him so that we knowthat Billy is not doing this in a
vacuum.
This is also based off of his trauma.
(28:42):
Right.
And, and that's.
I think I said last week thatthat that's the overall theme of
the show, is that trauma stays.
It lingers, it grows, it festers.
It's what created the Upsidedown, as far as we can tell.
And so they planted someseeds, but they just made him be
terrible for so long that bythe time we get to that scene in
(29:04):
season three where Elle islearning more about Billy by examining
his memories, by the time weget there, I wasn't, I didn't.
It was hard for me to care.
Like, it wasn't that.
I understand that Billy wasonce a little boy who had a tragic
story, who.
His mother abandoned him basically.
(29:26):
But I wish they would haveshown some of that stuff to us instead
of getting it so late.
We get that, I think midwaythrough season three, and that's
like 10 episodes deep intothis guy being terrible to everybody.
Yeah.
I mean, he is a cartoon.
He's a cartoon villain a lotof the time.
And I think, like, again, butthat's, that's why I drew that.
(29:48):
And like, it was intentional.
Intentional.
Like I grew up on those movies.
Like we all did.
Like, that grew up in thattime period.
But like, you know, likeKarate Kid, Back to the Future with
Biff, like, they were very onedimensional meathead, kind of like
Teen Wolf, like, kind of villains.
Right.
And I think that these guys,the Duffers, are very, very inspired
(30:11):
by these things.
And they call back to those,those, those places.
The thing is, the audience inthis time period has grown to the
point where if you're gonna dothat, it, They're.
They.
We've had Zuko, one of thegreatest redemption arcs ever.
Ever.
Right.
Like, so we.
Jaime Lannister, although,okay, arguably not a.
(30:34):
Good redemption arc arc.
He's not a good redemption arc.
I, I'm owning that.
I'm saying he's not a goodredemption arc at all.
Like, he, he, he gets to theedge and then it falls apart.
But the point is, we as anaudience can't do one dimensional
characters the way we once did.
But they are.
Especially with our villains.
Yeah, especially with our villains.
(30:54):
Like, I can't remember exactlywhat year this season two came out,
but, like, you know, I believeit was before Black Panther.
So it was before we had, youknow, Kale Monger be this like multi
dimensional villain that wassaying stuff that we agreed with.
(31:15):
Right.
Like, some of the audience waslike, yeah, he's making good points,
but it wasn't before we HadMagneto and all, you know, like,
we need our villains.
We need our villains to be alittle bit better than this.
And I think one of the thingsthat this show.
Show has struggled with in thevery beginning, and maybe because
it was supposed to be ananthology show and it wasn't supposed
(31:35):
to be one unified story, is itlike, we don't really understand
the motivations behind themain villain because they're not
really given to us.
We.
It's season four is when welearned that Vecna.
Before that there.
There's the Demogorgons and the.
And the Mind Flayer and, youknow, all of that.
(31:56):
But it's like these are likeamorphous things.
Like, these are not concrete villains.
So Billy is kind of theantagonist where Steve was, right?
And I think because audienceget used to that formula where you
introduce an antagonist andthen he joins the team.
I think we were a little bitexpecting, like, Billy to become
(32:16):
part of the team towards theend of the season.
And the absolute oppositehappens, right?
No, no, no.
100%.
I mean, he gets knocked thefuck out.
He does fuck Steve up again.
Steve just should stop fighting.
Like three season.
Yeah, Free season, Steve getshis ass handed to him.
Yeah, that guy.
(32:38):
Oh, my gosh.
In some of the promo forseason four, I mean, season five,
they.
They have done some interviewswith the various cast members, and
they had all the older teens together.
So Robin, Steve, Nancy andJonathan, all the actors.
And apparently in the JonathanSteve scene, he.
(32:59):
Jonathan really hit Steve twice.
Oh, wow.
He didn't mean to.
He, like, hit him once andthen he was like, oh, my God, I'm
sorry.
And then he hit him again.
And I'm like, yo, they'rereally taking real beatings.
Oh, my gosh, that's hilarious.
I mean, you got to make it real.
(33:20):
You got to make it realistic.
I think characters being onedimensional is something that we
talked about, but I think,like, where they did add some nuance
and, you know, I think, Ithink was with the relationship with
Bob and.
And Will, I really.
It ends up being really toughadvice because it ends up being the
(33:44):
very thing that.
That leads to him beingpossessed by the shadow monster.
But I thought it was.
I thought it was really, youknow, awesome to see this kind of
like, hey, I'm not just.
I'm not just relating to youas a guy that's dating your mom.
I also can relate to you froma standpoint of I was that nerdy
(34:05):
kid, or I was that outcast kidthat people picked on and that Nobody
paid attention to really.
Let me tell you what works forme and what has worked for me.
And I thought that was a. Ithought that was a powerful scene.
Another kind of nod to Bob's character.
I totally agree.
It.
It comes back later as a problem.
Right.
But I don't think it's bad advice.
(34:29):
It's just that Bob didn't knowexactly what he was dealing with.
Right.
Bob thought that Will washaving, like, actual dreams and stuff.
He didn't realize the full weight.
Only Hopper and Joyce reallyknow that of the adults.
Right.
And Dr. Owens.
And so Bob was giving himactually very good advice about facing
(34:50):
down your fear.
The problem is that that fearis also a survival tactic.
And that Will was able to usehis fear of the Upside down to kind
of escape from the forces thatwere trying to possess him.
But then when he has to standhis ground, it turns out it's not
actually just a vision.
Right.
And this is not Bob's fault,in my opinion.
(35:12):
This is Dr. Owen's faultbecause he's the one who planted
this.
Kind of like, be fine.
It's just ptsd.
No, this is like a really realforce that's trying to take Will
over.
And no one really takes thatseriously until Joyce starts to put
the pieces together becauseshe notices in the video again, also,
Bob was the one who told Joyceto look at the video because he was
(35:35):
like, he got bullied.
And you should take a look at that.
And she sees that, and shesees that he's being bullied.
But she also notices theshadow monster in the video, which
I was like, damn choice.
I would have never noticed that.
Yeah, I mean, camcorder VHS'sused to be fuzzy as hell.
Yeah.
You would have thought thatshe was looking at a high def picture.
(35:58):
But, yeah, she noticed stufflike that.
And so Bob is so caring andobserving and really wants.
Not just.
He wants to be part of this family.
He doesn't just want to date Joyce.
He doesn't just want to maybemarry Joyce.
He wants to be this.
To be his family.
And I think he.
He makes real efforts in a waythat we can never imagine.
(36:24):
Hopper, who has kind of waskind of the surrogate dad of season
one.
We can't ever imagine Hopperdoing this stuff.
Right.
He's not good at this stuff.
He's not good at talking tothe kids about how they feel.
You know, he's good atprotecting people, at taking action.
But Bob is more of a personwho's good at the emotional and the
social.
Emotional side of that.
(36:45):
And it also.
It.
I totally agree.
And it also, like, really hitson the fact that in Hawkins, because
of this.
This undercurrent of, like,secrecy and the shadow monster.
And what we eventually findout is Vecna and all the things that
have happened thatconventional parenting wisdom, things
(37:07):
that would have normally.
And that conversation in anormal moment is just a surrogate
parent telling him a goodadvice to like, hey, you can be.
And also foreshadows Bob's ownbravery that he is a brave person.
Right.
That that's who.
That's.
That he grew into being thiskind of brave person.
But it shows you how, youknow, when the Upside down is involved.
(37:31):
It's very hard to, like, gowith, like, the traditional way of
thinking that you have to.
That they're like, that.
That doesn't work in this context.
Yeah.
I love this conversation.
I love.
I love the facing your fears.
And he lives it because hedoes end up facing his fears.
And, you know, we'll talkabout that more.
More later on in.
In the next episode.
Next group of episodes.
(37:51):
Yeah, I think.
I think Lucas.
Let's talk about Lucas'ssister, Erica.
Oh, wait.
Before we get to Erica, I dohave one more thing to say about
Bob.
Yeah.
This is this conversation thatBob has with Joyce about how, like,
nobody would have noticed himin high school.
Like, she didn't even know his name.
(38:11):
I think that's when they'remaking out in the stock room or whatever.
Yeah.
Yeah, it is.
I don't understand why the duffer.
The play throws that there.
Joyce definitely knew hisname, but, like.
Definitely does that how he.
Is that how he felt?
Maybe, like more than, like, hands.
He can't.
So I'm sure if.
If.
If this were my work, I wouldsay, is it worth it to not write
(38:35):
Bob Newby as a character inthe play just because of this one
line?
Probably not.
People get over it.
But I have to mention therewas some retconning here.
This is not this line.
And in the line earlier, Ithink that Nancy says in season one
about how her parents met,they are debunked in the play.
(38:56):
But the Nancy one is not so bad.
Because you're like, oh, kidsdon't always understand the dynamics
between their parents.
Right.
You get pieces of stories or whatever.
This is Bob himself actinglike Joyce wouldn't have known who
he was when we know that fromthe play that Joyce absolutely knew
who he was.
So I don't want to spoil.
I'm not going to spoil theplay, but that's it.
I think that they just werelike, maybe nobody will notice that.
(39:19):
Yeah, that's.
That's fair.
And this is something you toldme about right after you watched
the.
The play that you were worriedabout some of the.
The ways that they had toretcon things, you know, and.
And would change things, butthat it's canon.
So, I mean, if they're saying,hey, this is.
This is part of the world,then it's part of the world.
So, yeah, that.
I guess we'll have to.
We'll look past those things.
Hey, look, we have looked pasta lot in a lot of our fantasy worlds.
(39:42):
It's true.
I mean, this is like a small.
Again, if you're the DufferBrothers and this play is being worked
on, is it worth, like,bringing Bob back is probably more
into the.
Integrating Bob's characterinto the play is probably more important
than this line.
And when I saw the play andwhen Bob Newby walks on stage and
he's introduced that way, thewhole audience clapped.
(40:05):
No other character got thatkind of welcome from the audience.
So obviously this is a belovedcharacter they want to use in the
play.
So it is what it is.
But I had to know that.
And also, I mean, like, look, we've.
We've.
In other fantasy shows, we'veerased whole children, thankfully,
but we have erased them.
Like, it's true.
People.
House of the Dragon.
What up?
(40:25):
Yeah, like, erasing wholechildren and whole people.
So.
Yeah, no, I think.
I think that's.
It's a fair call out, though.
I just think, you know, what,a, like, nerd was such a big thing
in the 80s.
And revenge of the Nerds, oneof my all time favorite, favorite
movies.
Okay.
Small.
(40:46):
Like, I'm tall now, but I was.
I mean, I guess I was tall formy age, but I still felt small and
like, pretty scrawny, big glasses.
When Revenge of the Nerds cameout, it made me feel seen.
I felt seen.
When Revenge of the Nerds cameout, I was like, this is amazing.
Right?
So.
But I. I will say.
(41:07):
I will say that, like it was.
It's pretty unrealistic thatshe would say nerd like that in front
of her mama.
I'm just telling you the waythat the Sinclair parents are written.
Yeah.
Those are not my black parentsin the 80s or the 90s.
No.
Or in fact, today, in 2025.
(41:29):
You think I can call my sistera nerd in front of my mom and just.
Is just cool like that?
No.
We're both grown women.
Okay.
My sister are both grown.
Yeah.
But I love that scene whereshe calls him a nerd.
First of all, it's so funnybecause of the way that she does
it.
It's gifable.
It's.
Erica's so adorable.
And also as an audiencemember, I was like, he's the nerd.
(41:53):
You're obsessed with My Little Pony.
You too, Erica, are into a fandom.
Oh yeah.
Because I don't know if.
I don't know if youngermillennials know this because I'm
an elder millennial.
So I had more of a Gen Xexperience of my early childhood.
(42:14):
There was a My Little Pony show.
My Little Pony movie.
There was.
Oh yeah, My Little Pony was.
It was a fandom.
It was not as big as HarryPotter, but it was a huge fandom.
And I love those movies.
I used to.
I had them all on vh.
Like I used to watch that.
Like, it was the way that Ilike repeat comfort shows now, like
(42:38):
the Good Place or DowntonAbbey or whatever.
My.
But I was definitely in thebeginning stages of also being a
nerd.
So I don't know why Erica.
That's right, She.
I mean, we find out later thatshe's just.
She is very much.
I mean, like you said, she'sgreat at math.
She's.
Oh, Dustin.
Dustin is like.
So who's the nerd now, huh?
Exactly.
(42:59):
Who like Dustin really bringsit back in season three, which I
love because it's a good fullcircle moment.
But it was.
There's so many light hearted mo.
This is kind of a heavy seasonand there's so many light hearted
moments like this that I, thatI laughed out loud, heart like funny
moments.
And so this one was a reallygood one.
The.
(43:20):
The moment when Dustin saysthat three Musketeers is like a top
three candy.
This is egregious.
This is egregious.
I've paused the episode.
Egregious.
It's.
This sent me like, what.
What is actually happeningright now?
Three musketeers.
Three Musketeers is not, isnowhere in.
(43:41):
It's not in the top five.
And for me, when we go top.
Five, it's not in the top 10.
If whenever I went trick ortreating, if I got a three Musketeers,
I immediately put that in mysister's pile.
That's.
That's for my sister.
Let's go.
Our top three.
Top three chocolate candies ofthe 80s.
(44:01):
Top three.
I mean, I don't know if thesewere all around in the 80s, but I'm
gonna assume because most candy.
Candy bars haven't changed that.
They haven't changed that much.
All right, number one, Snickers.
Of course.
I don't care what nobody.
I had the Snickers yesterday.
Yes.
Snickers is still number one.
I don't care what anybody saysSnickers is.
(44:22):
There's something about theway the sweet, the crunchy, the salty
all melt.
Snickers.
Top number, top tier.
Yes.
Number two, Reese's PeanutButter Cups.
We defer here, but I'll giveyou a Reese's Peanut Butter.
Okay.
What's your number two?
What's your number two?
My number two is the chocolatecovered peanut M&M's.
(44:47):
That's my number two.
Yeah, that's a good one.
That's a good one.
Those are good.
They're very good.
They feel good.
They.
There's like, chocolate covered.
Something about the milkchocolate over the peanut.
That's.
That's my number two.
That is.
Those are good.
I forgot about them entirelybecause my number three was gonna
be Almond Joy.
Joys.
(45:08):
I love an Almond Joy.
I know that's controversial.
I know some people thinkAlmond Joy and Mounds, which I hate.
I don't like Mounds.
But Almond Joy is, like, onpar with Reese's with three Musketeers.
Absolutely not.
Absolutely.
I will fight people in thestreet over this.
I enjoy.
Because they're so tiny.
Right.
(45:28):
The other thing about threeMusketeers is they want to give you
a whole bar of nougat.
It's just.
Come on.
It's rough.
But if I'm gonna go in that family.
If I'm gonna go in that family.
If we're going.
This is why I thought threeMusketeers was so egregious.
If I gotta go in that family,my third.
I'm going Milky Way.
I like Milky Way.
I don't like Milky Way, but Ican eat a Milky Way.
(45:50):
The notion of if someone wereto chocolate or a Milky Way, I'm
gonna take the Milky Way.
I'm not turning down the chocolate.
Yeah.
But the notion of no chocolateor three Musketeers, I'm good.
Pass.
Yeah.
No chocolate for me.
I'm.
I will.
It was the wildest thingDustin's ever said, and he's had
(46:11):
some real, real wild things.
I. I actually needed a momentafter he said that.
Candy I was forced to eat.
Candy I was forced to eatbecause, you know, my parents did
go through.
I was a granola kid on some occasions.
So I didn't.
I didn't get.
Yeah, right.
I didn't get access to all of it.
So candy I was forcing was Raisinets.
Now, if I had to, if I like,I, I, I mean, it hurt, it hurts my
(46:33):
soul to say them, even in thisconversation, because they are not
very good.
But as a kid, I was just happyto get them.
I was happy.
I just.
Happy.
Something chocolatey.
I don't think Raisinets are bad.
They're just not my favorite.
Like, I wouldn't pick them,but, you know, shout out to, to Angie,
who is my closest, one of myclosest friends.
(46:55):
She used to get Raisinets atthe movies and I used to have some.
Yeah, they're good.
I, you know, that was like her.
She would get some Raisinetsand I think some Twizzlers and we
would share them.
And I never complained becausethey're perfectly fine.
Would I pick Raisinets?
No.
No.
Me either.
But no.
Yeah, but they're, they'reperfectly acceptable.
I can eat a few of those.
(47:15):
Yeah.
Okay.
All right.
So let's talk about ourtakeaways besides candy in this episode
and what we learned.
What did we learn in thisepisode that kind of sticks with
you?
That carries through maybe inother episodes and the rest of the
series?
So I think, I know that peopleare probably annoyed of this because
we've talked about this manytimes at this point and this is only
(47:38):
our third episode on StrangerThings, but I do think that I just
want to go through the Voidand the Will's interaction with the
Upside down, because I dothink this is important.
Yeah.
So the fact that Will is kindof a bridge between the Upside down
and Hawkins is not onlyimportant now, but is going to be
(48:00):
important for the rest of the series.
It comes back in season three,it comes up in season four, and I
absolutely think it's going tobe important in season five.
And his relationship with theUpside down is really different than
Elle's relationship with allof her.
Her powers.
So Elle can explore people's minds.
(48:22):
She can enter the Void to find people.
Those are distinct powers, asfar as I can tell.
She's able to find people inthe Void.
She's able to enter people's minds.
I'm not quite clear on how herpowers work in either, but she's
able to do these things.
But when she finds she canlocate people, but she.
It's a one way connection.
(48:43):
Will is not having a one wayconnection here.
And in fact, Will'sconnection, he can both sense the
other side, the Upside Down.
But the Upside down can alsouse Will, which they will later in
order to spy on what the gangis doing.
Right.
And so Will becomes a weaponof the Upside down in this season.
(49:06):
And it doesn't happen tilllater episodes, but we're seeing
a glimpse of it early inthese, in these first five episodes
that Will, the connectionisn't one sided, it's a two way street.
And that Will can be possessed.
I wondered in my second watchof season two is if Will can be used
(49:27):
as a weapon for the Upsidedown, can the gang then use Will
as a weapon for the right side up?
Yeah, I mean, here's somethingthat indicates that because we see
L, that they must be using theexperimentation that they did on
(49:49):
Terry had to be for a reasonalong with what they're doing with
L. And what we find out isthere's a concept I'm thinking about,
like, you know, memory as a weapon.
Like think about that withWill and Terry, that they're both
trapped in some sort of way in memories.
And that trap with memory isreally strong.
(50:09):
And we've talked about thisbefore with the songs and the other
things, but Terry, as we gointo more detail later, she's like
trapped in her own memories.
And you could connect kind oflike that to the show itself and
connection to our memories.
We've been referencing allthese movies, nostalgia, things like
that.
But it's also, I think it'salso important because I think like
(50:35):
this indicates that memoryplays a role in how to handle or
affect the Upside down.
And that memory in the rightside up, like the ability to use
your memory in the right sideup and cultivate like, kind of like,
(50:56):
oh, I'm going to this thoughtwe'll see that later on can in fact
impact what happens in theUpside Down.
So I think like, yeah, I thinklike that's one question that comes
up with that for me that Itook away.
And I also wonder we've talkedabout time.
Was Will always meant to bepossessed in by the Mind Flayer because
(51:16):
of this two way ability thathe has and his connection to memory,
was that always what was goingto happen?
This kind of goes to that timeloop thing we talked about in a previous
episode.
Was it always going to be that way?
You know.
So if we take what we learnedin season one and we look at season
(51:39):
two and Will's experience, Ithink we have to assume that Will
was always planned to be usedin this way.
But maybe not exactly.
Maybe it didn't turn outexactly the way that Vecna had planned
(52:03):
for him because I think hethought he would have more Time with
Will in the Upside down inseason one.
And because Will was notcompletely defenseless, he.
That plan was interrupted.
But I do think that Will wasalways supposed to have some kind
(52:24):
of role in being like a bridgebetween the worlds and maybe being
what Billy later becomes.
Right.
Possessed and then able totake out actions that help the Upside
down have a.
Have a physical footing in theright side up.
Maybe that was originally theplan, but yeah, I think the answer
(52:48):
to your question is yes.
I think this was planned, butnot ex.
It didn't pan out exactly howit was planned.
Yeah, because the plan was.
The plan was interrupted.
Right, right.
I, I totally agree.
Is this a parallel, this thingthat we're talking about, this two
way of being.
(53:09):
How connected is that?
You know, they draw a parallelto D and D. They start talking about
true sight and, you know, itresembles that aspect of Dungeons
and Dragons.
You know, full disclosure, I'mnot a.
This is not.
Should not be surprised.
Dungeon Dragons was supercontroversial in the 80s.
(53:32):
Who could play, who couldn't.
I didn't get a chance to playlater on.
It was, it was, you know, it.
Became more normalized, Ithink, when I was in high school.
But I remember when I was inlike elementary and middle school,
it was still kind of like,Like a demon game.
Yeah.
But when I was in high school,I knew lots of people who played
(53:52):
it openly.
Right.
100 in high school, that Iwould say.
But I think that was aroundthe time that like Marilyn Manson
was normalized.
So like, like sort of likeweird goth culture.
And I don't mean weird to be derogatory.
I mean, that's how it was described.
Like people saw a newsubculture coming out where it was
like, okay to be weird.
It was okay to do things thatweren't mainstream.
(54:13):
But that was, you know, in the90s and the early aughts.
Yeah, it was.
I mean, that's why I thinkthat a character like Lucas and the
fact that we've kind of dancedaround, you know, they, they don't
really.
They say, oh, well, you know,this wasn't because he was black,
that he didn't like him andblase, blah, blah.
And Lucas's character is revolution.
It's a, it's a, it's a, Ablack character in the suburbs playing
(54:33):
DND a lot.
I know through experience that.
I'm not saying that waseveryone's experience, but a lot
of people's experience becauseof like the concern around the demonic
portion of it didn't, didn'treally in the Black community.
It didn't.
It didn't take us strong ahold as.
As what we're.
What.
What others might have done.
So I. I would say also.
(54:56):
So I don't know a lot aboutTrue Sight, but I do is why I say
all that.
But I do know that it'sdescribed in the episode as what
Will is experiencing.
Did you.
Do you have any takes on thator thoughts on that that you want
to expound upon?
I think it's interesting thatfrom what I understand from D and
(55:16):
D, and I want everyone to.
Again, we are no experts on Dand D. I actually had to check some
of the research I'd done witha friend who started playing D and
D during the pandemic.
She never even played it as a.
As a kid.
She started playing it as an adult.
But basically, True Sight is acharacter who has True sight in D
(55:38):
and D is able to see throughillusions and other planes.
But it's not in the same waythat El can see through illusions
and visit other planes.
It's.
It's that they can interact as well.
That it's not like it over.
It overlaps with their regular reality.
It's not just like they canpeek in.
(56:00):
And so I think that that'ssomething that we have to note.
You know, like, Will, we.
I think we've said thisalready, but Will is very important,
a very important character inseasons one and two.
And then he kind of takes aback seat in seasons three and four.
But I think these are the mostimportant seasons going into season
five.
I really think that.
(56:21):
That.
Yeah, that the.
The season.
How can I put this?
For people to okay the HungerGames series.
I think seasons one and twoare the Hunger Games and Catching
Fire, and then the seasonsthree and four are the Mockingjay,
(56:45):
which is kind of like, youknow, if you're thinking about the
movies, Mockingjay Part one iskind of just setting up for.
For the conclusion, which isMockingjay Part two.
Yeah, I think of that.
That foundation in seasons oneand two being so important to whatever's
(57:06):
gonna happen in the big finalein season five, even maybe more so
than what happens in season three.
No, I can see that.
And Will is such a.
Will plays a pivotal role inseason three, but only it in a couple
of moments.
Otherwise, he kind of fades back.
Like he's frustrated becausein season three because his friends
(57:28):
are, you know, all about theirgirls or whatever, but he doesn't
really have as much to do withthe magic until.
Until it's important.
Until he's using it as a warning.
Right.
And so I think it's importantto just note that, like this true
sight that he has, he stillhas it.
Even though, as we'll discussin our next episode, they managed
(57:51):
to banish the Mind Flayer fromWill's body.
He still has that connection.
He's still the bridge.
So I don't think that's going anywhere.
They've reminded us multipletimes that he's a bridge.
Yeah.
Living like he's a bridge and not.
Not just a victim.
Like, sometimes it's easy toframe Will as a.
As a victim.
I think one of the otherthemes that I would say I take.
(58:13):
Take away.
I mentioned it earlier, but Idon't want to, like, leave speaking
about Will without that themethat we've been talking about about
memory, but also that he.
He references now memories,which I think in being the Bridge,
they're.
They're visions, but they'realso invasive experiences.
So those now memories.
(58:34):
I don't know how to reallydescribe what he's saying there other
than, like, when that scenethat we spoke about early in this
episode about it being like,you know, everyone's seen the real
world and he's seen the MindFlayer, but he's also seen.
He's also in the real.
In the right side up.
I don't know.
It's like the shadow monsteruses those now memories to infiltrate
(58:55):
and control him in this season.
And it kind of blurs.
It blurs that present, thepast, the.
The Upside down to the rightside up.
And then you can see how thatmirrors where Terry's at because
she's in a loop.
Like, she's totally in a loop when.
When.
When Elle goes to find her.
And it's like, you know, it'sa psychic loop.
(59:16):
It's like she.
At one moment over and overand over and over and over again.
And we know not even one moment.
Fragments.
Yeah.
Of a mo.
Of multiple moments are.
She's just kind of stuck inthem and she can't.
She can't get out of the loop.
So she's physically present inthis world.
(59:37):
Right.
But she's lost in her mind.
Right.
Right.
So I just think those arethings that I took away from the
world Esteem that.
That there's, you know, that,you know, there is something about
the memory that anchors.
There's a way that you.
The Upside down and thesescientists can make it a prison.
There's a way that.
That the Upside down hasworked to blur the line for Will.
(01:00:01):
I think we've talked a lotabout the grief and trauma pieces
of it, but I think that griefand trauma play a part on memories.
Right.
How you experience somethingin your body, how you think about
it will impact the way thatyou remember it.
So I think those things arekind of connected as well.
(01:00:23):
What are the takeaways?
You have the fact that inseason two, everybody is dealing
with the events of season one.
You've got Mike grieving,Elle, you've got Will still dealing
with.
With the repercussions ofhaving gone through this terrible
(01:00:44):
experience.
You have Nancy carrying theweight of Barb's death.
Everybody is just livingthrough this trauma.
And so the.
The shadow of that firstseason stretches into every single
storyline.
And the grief and traumalinger and they shape everyone's
(01:01:06):
choices, good or bad, provingthat the upside down, the monsters,
the scary things don'tactually have to be present to still
have an effect.
And it makes me wonder, evenin the case that, let's say our.
(01:01:28):
Our folks are victorious atthe end of season five and they don't
nobody, they don't loseanybody else, and they're.
They're still going to carrythe trauma forever.
Yeah.
I mean, and yeah, that's fair.
That's.
I agree.
I agree that, that that's a soreal, man.
What.
It's a.
(01:01:48):
It's a beautiful story.
It's a heavy story.
It's.
It's a scary story.
It's a try.
And so in moments, it'striumphant and you feel.
It's so.
It's.
It's why we're here.
It's what we love about this.
That's why we're glad to becovering it.
And yeah, we.
That'll.
That'll do it for us, this episode.
(01:02:08):
So thank you so much forhanging out with us in Hawkins.
It is one of our favoriteworlds, I gotta say.
So, you know, happy to bedoing this.
And me too.
Yeah.
Happy to be doing this.
We've talked about it foryears and so to be actually doing
it, it feels.
It feels good.
So, yeah.
So hit us up if you got anythoughts on the episode or thoughts
(01:02:31):
about the world or any of thecharacters, hit us up@kinfolkloremail.com
kinfolklore pod on Instagramand on Twitter.
Yeah.
And we will see you next time.
Bye, everyone.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by Audiochuck Media Company.
The Brothers Ortiz
The Brothers Ortiz is the story of two brothers–both successful, but in very different ways. Gabe Ortiz becomes a third-highest ranking officer in all of Texas while his younger brother Larry climbs the ranks in Puro Tango Blast, a notorious Texas Prison gang. Gabe doesn’t know all the details of his brother’s nefarious dealings, and he’s made a point not to ask, to protect their relationship. But when Larry is murdered during a home invasion in a rented beach house, Gabe has no choice but to look into what happened that night. To solve Larry’s murder, Gabe, and the whole Ortiz family, must ask each other tough questions.