Kinfolklore: Stranger Things Sn.3 (Chapters 1-4)

Welcome back to Kinfolklore, where Andrea and Paul dive deep into the fantasy and sci-fi worlds we love. Few shows capture that blend of nostalgia, terror, and friendship quite like Stranger Things.

This episode, we’re rewinding all the way back to Hawkins, Indiana, Fall 1985. The era of big hair, bright lights, and even bigger monsters. The food, Ice cream from Scoops Ahoy! The hangout Strarcourt mall. In preparation for the final season dropping this November, Andrea and Paul are rewatching every episode from the very beginning, continuing their coverage here with Season 3, Chapters 1-4

Episode Transcript

(00:09):
Welcome back to KinFolklore.We're heading into the summer of
1985 in Hawkins, Indiana. Theera of big hair, bright lights, and
even bigger monsters. Themonsters are huge. Almost too big.
Too big.
Almost too big. And disgusting.
Yeah.
The food. Ice cream fromScoops Ahoy.

(00:30):
Yum.
The Hangout. The brand newStarcourt Mall.
Oh, I feel like shopping.
I love the mall.
We'll talk about it.
Yes.
I love the mall.
Me too.
That's right. We're divingback into Stranger Things. Looking
at season three, where thenostalgia is sweet, the relationships
are incredibly messy.
Very.
And danger feels closer thanever. I'm Andrea.

(00:52):
And I'm Paul. And for those ofyou who are.
New here, we're cousins wholove breaking.
Down fantasy and sci fi worlds.
We love the way they captureour hearts and collective anxiety.
In the case of StrangerThings, they always deliver both.
And in these first fourepisodes, the.
Kids are growing up, theRussians are.

(01:13):
Scheming and plotting, and theMind Flayer is looking for a new
host. He stays looking at likea real parasitic.
He should get his ownpersonality, right? Like he should
get his own personality.
I agree.
Do some inner work, MindFlayer. Examine what's going on inside.
Today we're covering seasonthree, chapters one through four,

(01:34):
from the teenage heartbreak tothe exploding rats. It's gross.
Although we would like that inNew York City. That'd be pretty cool.
A couple of explosions.
Not that way.
Yeah, clean them up.
I just want them. I want themto all leave. Like, I don't want
them to explode. That'sdisgusting. It's. We're heading into

(01:55):
4th of July where thefireworks are definitely just not
fireworks. They're a littlebit something extra. And if you haven't
seen through chapter four yet,pause this, continue your binge,
and then come back. As always,this podcast is not spoiler free.
We will be discussing all fourseasons of Stranger Things and saving
the first shadow play for itsown mini chapter. So we will not

(02:18):
spoil that here.
But you all know the drill.
Kinfolk.
We will have adult content.But I need to have a little.
Heart to heart with you all.
Is it really unreasonable toask for a little respect in your
own home? You pay no billsaround here. And is it really too
much? Is 3 inches really toomuch to ask? I mean, honestly, food

(02:39):
for thought. It's 30 secondsfrom showtime. And by showtime, I
mean the poolside walk out byBilly for the Hawkins mothers. And
if you've come to get a fullon Billy moment, you've come to the
right place. Mrs. Wheeler isfeeling all the things. All of the
things.

(03:01):
Oh, man. That was that littleplot line, yo. I love it. I love
it.
I absolutely love it. I absolutely.
It's messy, but I love it.
So.
I love it.
So let's talk about. Seechapters one and two. Susie, do you
copy? And the mall rats. So weopen in Russia with hazmat suits,

(03:25):
failed experiments, a chillingcountdown to open the gate again.
Back in Hawkins, Mike andEleven cannot keep their hands off
of each other. I was just asoutraged as Hopper.
Yeah, me too.
Okay, what are we doing here,kids? Have some respect.
Even worse than the keepingtheir hands on each other. It's the

(03:46):
sarcasm for me. Like, it'slike, literally. Hey, take. I'm gonna
need to take the bass out ofyour voice. I made you be a little
less sarcastic. Let's. Let'schill out.
Mike is insane in these firstfew disrespect. Anyway, Dustin.
Yeah.
Returns from camp with talesof his girlfriend, Susie. We know

(04:09):
Susie is real, but it is veryfunny that he's beginning.
Nobody believes it. Nobodybelieves him.
He also has a massive hamradio called Cerebro. That becomes
important later at the mall,where Steve has a job and is a worker
in Scoops Ahoy.
Oh, how the mighty havefallen. Oh, how the mighty have fallen.

(04:30):
He was college bound. He wasdating Nancy Wheeler. He had the
whole world ahead of him.
It's a rough look. It's arough look. Especially because of
the costume. Like, maybe if itwasn't for the little, like, uniform
they had, it would have beennot as bad. But it's a tough. It's
a tough. But we also meetRobin. If he didn't have that job,

(04:52):
we would have never met Robin,who becomes like the heart of the
best subplot in maybe inStranger Things history. I love Steve
and Robin together so much. Ilike. Yeah, I'll take whatever. Whatever.
He had to fall from grace toget this. I'll take it. So Joyce

(05:14):
is Joy sing. As Joyce does,being her normal self, noticing something
weird and then going into afull on tailspin about it. She's
just can't. Can't ignore.Sends her into science detective
mode with Mr. Clark, theworld's best and most patient science

(05:35):
100.
Oh, my God, this poor man.
Yeah, this poor man. No boundaries.
Hawkins, Bill Nye, the scienceguy. Like, he is like, literally
that guy. Like, everybody'slike, we got a scientific conundrum.
Where do we go? Mr. Clark. Mr.Clark's got you.
Nancy and Jonathan, meanwhile,are interns at the Hawkins Post.

(05:56):
Where Nancy faces open sexismwhile chasing a lead about rabid
rats. Some of those rats, aswe've discussed, disgustingly explode
as the Mind Flayer startsrebuilding itself a flesh body.
Weird.
I just. This was too much. Idon't know. We're doing duffers.

(06:21):
This was disgusting.
This is like the blog.
It was even. It was moredisgusting on the second watch. Like,
this was gross.
They remixed like. Theyremixed like, Breakfast Club, Terminator,
the Blob. All these things allinto one season. It's kind of interesting.
It was a little crazy. It wasa little crazy.
This was nasty. Meanwhile,Billy gets dragged into the horror

(06:43):
after being pulled into thestill mill. Steel mill. And becoming
the Flare's newest host,Hopper attempts a heart to heart
with Mike.
That he just threatens him.
I don't even like, was this ahard job like this? You know, on
my first watch, I was verymuch like, Hopper is. Is being like,

(07:07):
not a great parent. But again,as I have gotten older and my friends
have children this age now,I'm like, poor Hopper.
Oh, the mic whisper in mychild's ear. And for them to crack
up and, like, try to play mein front of my, like, no, no, no.
I am going to do exactly whathe did. Listen, look, this is when
you can do this, when you cancome over. This is when you can't.

(07:29):
It probably was a bad look forHopper overall, but this was. This
was.
It was needed.
They were too much. They weredoing too much.
I'm sorry.
They were doing way too much.He's. Hopper's totally unhinged this
season.
He's crazy.
Oh, my God.
Insane. But. But, you know, IfMike and 11 had just listened to
him, maybe wouldn't be thatway, you know? You know, this leads

(07:51):
to Mike lying to 11 about hisnana being sick, and then to 11 dumping
Mike in the. With my favoritequote of the entire show, I dump
your ass.
And everybody's reacting.Well, they hit it with, like, the.
The rap Cipher reacts. Herewas like, oh, oh, oh.

(08:17):
Dustin enlists Steve and Robinto decode a mysterious Russian transmission
that's definitely not comingfrom Moscow. Yeah, it's local.
It's local. And she figures itout. Robin figures out not only the
Russian, but she also figuresout that it's, like, in the mall,
which, you know, good for thenew person in the crew to have this

(08:38):
much skill.
Skill.
Amazing. Amazing.
Yeah.
So next, in the case of themissing lifeguard and the sauna test,
Elle and Max's girl powersleepover turns into a surveillance
mission where they Spy onBilly and witness Heather's abduction.
It gets really, really scaryto see what's going on for them.

(09:00):
Will is desperate to revivethe normal functions of the party.
He's like, hey, can we getback on track? You guys are distracted
with all this other stuff.Chiefly girls. I need you to get
back to. We're on a campaign.Let's go. But he gets brushed off
and he hits his breakingpoint. It's not my fault you don't

(09:20):
like.
Girls is what Mike says. Andit's rough. It's heartbreaking.
Most, Most heart. I like Mikeunderstood he crossed the line immediately.
But oh my God, soheartbreaking. The knife through
my heart.
It was the way he weaponizedhis knowledge of his friend. Right.
Like, it's like, okay, heknows that.

(09:41):
His friend is gay and he'sgoing to. And he weaponize it.
It wasn't, it was loaded. Ithink the duffers did something here
where they haven't, theyhaven't at this point, unless I,
they haven't come out rightaway and said it. Right. So, like,
we're operating as the audience.
And seeing this and, and it could.
Be taken either way that hejust hasn't gotten a girlfriend yet

(10:02):
or that he's queer.
Right.
And the reality of it is isthat either way is just fucked up.
Either way for Mike. Hecrossed the line, so it doesn't.
Really matter in this point.
Yeah. And I, I sympathize forMike a little bit because he's a.
These are what, eighthgraders? Like, middle school's rough

(10:23):
because not. And we'll talkmore about the relationships, but,
like, middle school is really hard.
Yeah.
It's when a lot of us aregoing through our first kind of searching
for our, our identity in areal way and not all of our friends
can come along.
Agreed.
So I, I, I don't want to betoo harsh on Mike. I definitely said

(10:44):
cruel things to my friendswhen I was their age, but, man, this
hurt. Yeah, it hurt.
I was tough on Mike in the.
First half of these, in theseepisodes, I soften on Mike midway
through the end. I don't knowwhy. I mean, obviously we'll talk
about why when we, in the nextepisode that we record. But I, I
just think, like, I don't know.

(11:04):
Tough, tough. Mike was havinga Hopper esque run.
In these days of hisunhingedness in these episodes.
They're both so unhinged. It'sso funny.
Hopper and Joyce's Scooby Dooadventure leads them back to the
lab. Somehow they decide thatthis is a good idea for the two of
them to go into the lab andstart snooping around as to what

(11:28):
might be happening.
Maybe it's the lab that'scausing this electromagnetic change.
And this is where Hopper getshis ass whooped. He gets attacked.
Normally, he's got thingsunder control, but if he hadn't seen
the Terminator, he got apersonal preview of a guy very much
like the Terminator. Him up.I'll be back. I will break you like

(11:52):
Dolph London. All those thingshappen. So Robin also cracks the
Russian code.
Connecting the mysterystraight to Starcourt Mall.
So it's not just local, it's in.
The mall, which we talkedabout a little bit ago. Nancy and
Jonathan get fired after the.
Driscoll incident, leading toa fight about privilege and courage.

(12:13):
It's a interesting dynamicbetween the two of them, and we'll
talk about that a little bit more.
And the kids, they set up atest. They set up a way to see whether
the Mind Flayer has taken over.
Billy's body by getting theminto a sauna. Because the Mind Flayer
does not like heat.
And it turns into a very terrifying.

(12:33):
Confrontation that proves theMind Flayer has returned and is stronger
than ever and is inside Billy.And, you know, it was pretty intense
for everyone involved. Anddefinitely Max is mortified, you
know.
So this season, which I thinkI have been quite critical of in
the past, so much action, butthis scene is actually quite terrifying.

(12:55):
Like Billy. I didn't knowwhere they were going to go of this.
I thought one of the kids wasgoing to die the first time I saw
it, because Billy iscompletely unhinged and he's really
powerful. And if 11 hadn'tbeen there, these kids absolutely
would have gotten hurt.
100%. No, they can't. Theycan't go messing around without her
powers.
So let's. Let's go ahead andlet's pour one.

(13:16):
Out for every exploded rat inHawkins, the Russian scientist who
didn't get the firstexperiment right. The guy got choked
out.
Forgot about that guy.
Done off.
He just.
I'm like, damn, another name.
Another nameless lab worker.
Exactly.

(13:37):
This goes out to all ourfallen homies.
Yo, don't let the chin getlike that, y'. All.
Rip to hoppers. Peace andquiet. Forever gone.
Forever gone. Forever gone.

(13:58):
No more. No more.
No more mornings up for coffeeand contemplation.
Nope. Nope. You have a teenagedaughter now. And even when she's
an adult, it's gonna be. It'sa lot of work. Hopper, your mom and
dad, all right, you play bothroles, okay. And as a grown woman
who still feels like I needparenting, I, I. My sympathies are

(14:22):
with Hopper. My sympathies arewith you.
So let's talk about theparenting woes. Okay. What are your
thoughts on the. The threeinches? It remains. It remains a
great dad moment in tv.
Where, Where.
I'll be honest with you, let's.
This is.
This drops around the sametime as.

(14:45):
Endgame and Game of Thrones.We know Game of Thrones historically
as terrible ass dads. Like theworst dads.
Right. And let's be honest,Tony Stark's dad left him a lot of
money, gave him a gift ofamazing scientific intellect. Not
the best dad. Right. Let's.Let's keep it 100. Right. So all

(15:07):
this is happening in that timeperiod. We're having a run of pretty
horrific dadding. This is alittle funny because in that context
of the pop culture moment, Ithink this is something that most
dads could relate to,especially after coming.
Home from work and wanting tomake sure your daughter's good.
And I, I think they could. Icould. What do you think of this

(15:27):
moment?
These kids took advantage of avery good situation.
Right.
All right, first of all, whenI was this age, boys were not allowed
over. Period.
Right.
Period. If I wanted to see aboy I had a crush on, because I wasn't
allowed to have boyfriends atthis age, if I wanted to have a see
a boy I had a crush on, I hadto go to the mall. All right. I.

(15:48):
I couldn't. We had to go to apublic place. I. He. In my bedroom.
Absolutely not.
Three.
Absolutely three inches. WhenI was even my.
I had a really good closefriend who was a boy. He was not
allowed in my bedroom. Hecould come to the house. We could
hang out in the living room,but come on, man.

(16:10):
Yeah. And three inches.
The door would have to becompletely open. Completely open.
There's no closed doors.
Right.
In a black person's house.
It's not happening. Not happening.
No. So if the door closed, itwould have been removed and would
be no privacy whatsoever. Sothese kids have a good. Now, is Hopper

(16:31):
acting crazy? Absolutely.Like, two things are true. Two things
are true. These kids have agood situation that they're then
taking advantage of. AndHopper is also acting like a maniac
in these first few episodes.
Yeah. And I don't know. Imean, like, it's just weird. What
are your thoughts on this? Ifeel like in season one, Hopper,
while depressed, while sadabout losing his.

(16:54):
Daughter, all those things.
He had a different level ofemotional intelligence that I kind
of. It seems like it'sdivulged in. Like, he's just like
a. He's just like a bumbling,angry, like, whatever. Like, everything
is, like, 0 to 100. And I getit. When you have teenagers, it's
hard to keep it up. But I feellike he should have been able to

(17:15):
understand some of what.
Joyce was trying to break itdown to him inside the store, but
he did not. He did not.
Definitely leaned into aversion of Hopper that I think is
very early present, but thenthey kind of soften in later seasons.

(17:36):
But they're definitely leaninginto this, like, emotional immaturity
and not knowing what he'sdoing as a parent. And it just. I
don't know.
Yeah.
I don't know.
Yeah.
I don't feel like Jonathangave Joyce a lot of problems, and,
like, I know they need areason for Joyce and Hopper to be
talking this early in theseason, but I don't. Joyce doesn't

(18:01):
have much experience of thiseither. I don't think Jonathan was
the type of kid who. She dealtwith this and Will certainly isn't.
But Joyce does give him goodadvice. At the end of the day, though,
I'm kind of with Hopper. Like,put the law down.
Yeah.
And they need to obey the law.
Yeah. 100.
Joyce is doing gentleparenting. All right. I respect.

(18:23):
Okay.
She's way ahead of her time.Way ahead of her time. But come on,
man. I. I tried to gentleparent y', all, and y' all doing
sneaky stuff. I don't likethat in my house.
Look. No, I.
All I know is. All I know isthe Wheelers had.
A Reagan Bush sign on their lawn.

(18:47):
Which I remember a time. I'mold enough to remember George Herbert
Walker Bush lecturing me aboutfamily values. But these Wheelers
who love them. Where the fuckare your children? Where are they?
These.
These Wheelers don't knowwhere their children are. No time.
They don't know where Nancyis. The only person they got that
tips on is. Is Holly. Holly isunder wraps. How is Mike over there?

(19:12):
Just the Wheelers later inthis season. Erica is just out of
the house for, like, 24 hours.
What is up with the. Yo, wealready. We will. We will go deeply
into this and clear what ishappening right now.
Do you remember when we werewatching this season in real time,
and I text you, and I waslike, this is completely unbelievable.
Like, the Mind Flayer. Sure,Whatever. The Upside down. Sure.

(19:36):
Whatever. But this is thething that breaks my ability to believe
this story, is that EricaSinclair is in a Mall.
For 24 hours and the sun up tosundown. No, nobody knows where she
is. And mom never hits themup. And Lucas is never asked to go
check where his sister is.This is.
This is not real. This is.
This is unreal.

(19:56):
Unbelievable.
But, you know, I digress.
Thank you.
Speaking of crazy plot lines,unhinged situations, I don't know
how the Russians got intoAmerica this easily, but they have
set up camp using the mayor ofHawkins, Mayor Klein, and Star Court

(20:17):
Mall. I love the mall stuff.
I absolutely love it. It is anostalgic. It's like a burst of nostalgia.
It felt like what it felt like.
For me to walk into RooseveltField Mall in New York for the first
time. It was absolutelyamazing. What were your thoughts
here about. About the malland, and. And the connections they

(20:38):
made to foreign investors.
So Starcourt is actually, tome, the most interesting part of
what they set up here. It isrepresenting two separate things.
Like it represents somethingto us as the audience and it represents
something different to thepeople in the story. So what it represents

(21:01):
to us is like the rise ofAmerican consumerism and a certain
way of life and nostalgia.Like from around the early 80s until
the mid aughts, the mall wasthe center of social life for young
people in America. And thatwas from like, you know, middle school

(21:22):
until even your maybe mid.Early to mid-20s. Like, it was the
center of social life. It hadall the things that. It had a food
court, it had a theater. Ithad all these things that you needed
to socialize with your friendto be out in community. And it's

(21:43):
not missed on me as a. Thatlike the. I went and looked up like,
when was the. What was thefirst depiction of a mall in this
type of mall in a movie? Andit was dawn of the dead in 1978,
which is a zombie film wherethe kids retreat to the mall to get

(22:07):
away from danger. And I'mlike, oh, they absolutely leaned
into that Stranger things. NowI haven't seen dawn of the dead and
probably 20 years, I'm justgonna keep it 100. So I didn't make
that connection right awaybecause I had kind of forgotten they
were in a mall in that movie.But I just thought that that was
like such a nod to what theydid in the second half of this season.

(22:34):
But then Mean Girls is thelast movie I remember, and I'm sure
there are some after. Butlike, Mean Girls to me is the last
movie that I recall where themall is a main feature of it. And
that was in 2004 and howperfect that is. Like, the mall era
was basically between the late70s, early 80s and in 2004, 2005.

(22:57):
The mall, to me was such animportant part of growing up. It
was the first place where Iwas allowed to have independence.
Like, I remember my parentswould drop me off at the mall for
a couple hours and I wouldhang out with my friends and. And
it was the first place where Iwas just like, unsupervised with
my friends. This the same waythat Elle and Max are roaming the

(23:20):
mall and there's all thesedifferent things to do. And it's
a. It's a. For a young woman,it's like a. A place with even more
important. It has moreimportant significance in part because
it's kind of where you canunlock, like, your feminine style.
Like, you can go and look atmakeup, you can go and pick out your

(23:40):
own clothes. Your mom doesn'thave to do that for you anymore.
And so I love the mall scene.Like, I was so obsessed with it.
Yeah, I do too.
So obsessed with it inHawkins. Back to your question, which
was like, what about the. Themoney coming in? It represents something
totally different. Right. Likeunderneath this, like, capitalism

(24:06):
and this glossy new thing theyhave, their downtown is literally
falling apart. Like, it lookslike Joyce's job is going to be gone
soon. She hasn't had customersin days. It's upending the way of
life in Hawkins. And it's anoutside foreign source. Right. But
the mayor is allowing it tohappen. And so in real time, there's

(24:29):
this kind of trade off for,like, well, so many jobs were created
or. But those jobs are not forthe people who are on Main Street.
It's thinking about, you know,taking Hawkins into a new. Towards
a new century where they'regonna have more population and grow.

(24:50):
But it's. It's forgetting andleaving behind the people who. Who
built Hawkins to what it is.
Yeah.
And so I loved. I loved allthat stuff. I think it kind of gets
drowned out by the biggerstory here, but the protest, the
corruption with Mayor Klein, Iactually think it's a really good
storyline, and I think it'sexactly what was happening all across
the Midwest in the 1980s goinginto the 1990s.

(25:12):
I agree. And I think what Ilove about what they do in this season
now, reflected on it, havingwatched it again, is they use places.
I mean, they use a lot ofplaces to set, like, themes for the
characters. And I think themall represents this shaping of identity

(25:34):
and shaping of yourself as a.As a. As a young person. And also
this. The way that they leaninto, you know, Elle really finding
her own identity independentof Mike, independent of, you know,
the. Max is pretty clear that,yeah, like, cool, I'm with. I'm with
Lucas, but I'm also my ownperson. And she helps Elle to find

(25:55):
that. But there's also, like,for the guys, there's like, this
coming to terms when they'rewalking through the mall and they're
like, let's go get a gift for.
Elle and Max so that we can,like, make up.
And they realize and come to terms.
With the fact that they don'thave enough money. They have to earn.
You know, like, they're comingface to.
Face with this capitalism thatyou're talking about.

(26:17):
But also, also, I think, like, identity.
Of the whole town is shifting.Like, so I think, like, the mall
represents, I think, reallyclearly disconnection to identity.
Obviously, it's shown in,like, the girls trip in the Material
Girl song playing in.

(26:40):
Oh, come on. It's. I mean, howdo you not feel something if you
grew up in that area and youhear Material Girl come on while
they're shopping?
It's absolutely amazing.
And, you know, it's. It's.It's Elle's first real sense of,
you know, what she. Who she isoutside of the boys. The boys have,
like, dominated, especiallyMike have dominated. And it's like,

(27:02):
great for, like.
You know, she.
Other than going into Nancy'sroom, that.
In season one, she hasn't hadthat real connection to just having
a normal girlhood. Like, she'slonged for that. And I think this
is this connection with Maxand having these experiences, is

(27:25):
that forming of identity? Ithink equally like what I noticed
about places, and we'll get tothat in the next episode, but I do
want to just register it here, is.
That there's a sense ofinnocence with.
The fair, that everything thatplays out there, there's this idea
of the lost innocence, right.And this new. And how that changes

(27:51):
your identity a little bitbased on the trauma that they go
through. And I think we'lltalk about that more in the second
half of the season.
But there is, like, I felt like.
The fear really representedthat in a way that I was. I didn't
really think about beforebecause I saw the kids and. And I
saw them playing. I saw themcoming down the slides and on the
rides while all this otherstuff is going on. And it made me

(28:11):
think about season one. Theparty in season one. Even though
the party is now changing andgrowing and becoming something different.
And I think, like, the mallreally does play a central role here.
And, like, even in, you know,the ending of this series of, like,
shaping who you are, youridentity, lost idea. Changing identity

(28:33):
through the. Throughout these.These experiences. And. And. And
definitely there's momentswhere you really find the loss of
innocence, which I think islike, a really big theme in this
whole thing. So.
I totally agree.
Let's. Let's talk about someof the important conversations that.
That. That in relationships.

(28:53):
I think, like, that's reallythe meat.
Of this whole series.
So first, let's go with the.
The reunion. I mean, the onethat we love.
Dustin and Steve, they got asecret handshake.
It's so cute.
It's amazing.
It's amazing.
It's so funny. I love it. Ialso love Robin's reaction to it.

(29:14):
Robin is like, when are youfriends with. I feel like that's
the same episode where Ericapops up with her girl gang. First
of all, can we just talk aboutthe fact that Erica has, like, a
little posse of girls withher? I was like, I didn't know Erica

(29:35):
rolled like this.
Yeah, it's amazing. It's great.
But, yeah, I just think it'shilarious that, like, all these kids
come to the mall to see Steve,and Robin is like, what is going
on?
Why do you have all these?Because he was the babysitter during
all this trauma. Like, it's hilarious.
It's great.
But I love that scene.
I love Robin's reaction, too.

(29:55):
And I think, you know, it really.
Sets in motion, like, youknow, everything we talked about
with them identifying what'shappening in the mall. But I just
love. I just.
I love the whole. I love thatwhole pairing.
Robin, Dustin, Steve, Erica.
Erica joins the game.
The scoop troop. They're great.
The scoop troop. It's great.

(30:16):
Yeah.
Erica joins the gang. She'spart of the gang now because they
recruit her, partially becauseshe's tiny.
Enough to do the mission.
And I kind of appreciate hernegotiating skills. I mean, she wanted
lifetime ice cream. She was.
She.
She sat down at the table.Look, you want me to do something,

(30:38):
this is what you're gonna haveto pay me. It's good. I like it.
And I like. I like how Dustintries to appeal to her patriotism,
but. And it kind of works. Butthen she's also like, okay, but I
also need to get paid. I'm acapitalist. This is a capitalist
society. Like, what are we.Yes. I'M I am pro America, not a

(31:00):
commie. So pay me.
So pay me. Exactly.
Exactly.
Right.
No, I love it.
I love that she's, you know,scamming out here. Out here. She's
an ice cream scammer and she'sout here, she's out here. She's evolved
from free samples.
So like the free sample game.Straight scamming. First of all,

(31:21):
like, you're taking advantageof a policy. But I got to respect
our hustle.
Look, I can, I gotta respect it.
I have taken part in many ofBourbon chickens in the mall, walk
through in the food court. You know.
I cannot front when they outthere have the toothpick. They used
to have the toothpick. Youwalk by, just grab a toothpick, eat
it, come back, oh, can I tastethat again? And just go again? He's

(31:44):
like, yeah, it was, it's. It'snot something I'm proud of, but I
must admit. Yeah. And thenwhile that's going on, let's talk
about, let's talk about theRobin introduction. What do you.
I mean, we talked a little bitabout her earlier.
We love Robin as a character.I think it's. It's one of the best

(32:04):
introductions of a characteron the show.
I mean, we got.
We had another great one lastseason with Max, but this one is
like just, I think, equally as great.
I would love to know who theDuffers based these characters on
because the group has reallygrown in really cool ways. And these

(32:31):
are a lot of characters tomanage but also to give distinct
personalities. Robin is reallydifferent from Max, who's really
different from El, who'sreally different from Nancy. They're
all. And if we go back to theoriginal party, Will, Lucas, Dustin
and Mike all have extremelydistinct personalities. It's real

(32:54):
testament to their writing ofcharacters that they've. This is
now the second and we knowthere will be one more. Well, at
least one more. We don't knowwho they'll introduce in season five,
but they're then going tointroduce Eddie, which was a beloved
character right from thebeginning. So the fact that we get
Elle in season one, love her.Center of the heart of the story.

(33:15):
Max in season two becomesalmost the brain of the story. And
then Robin, who brings in thislike, self assured but still a little
awkward, smart, but doesn'ttake herself too seriously the way
Nancy does. Like, it's just.Just layers upon layers of, of really

(33:40):
strong personality definitionthat they've created in their characterization.
I. Robin is like such a greatcharacter and she's an important
character for two reasons. Theway that Max gives Dustin and Lucas

(34:00):
some tension in theirrelationship. Robin takes two characters
who have never reallyrecovered from their earlier relationship
to the next level for both ofthem. So she does that for Steve
first in. In season threewhere her and Steve. We'll talk more

(34:20):
about this when we coverchapters five through eight. But
her. Her relationship withSteve becomes one of the most important
in the story. And then we seein season four, she does this. Her
and Nancy's relationshipbecomes extremely important. And
also just checking Nancy's ownbull. Like sometimes Nancy believes
the Nancy hype a little bit.
Yes, she does.
And Robin is. Robin is likechill girl. Like, relax. There's

(34:44):
another way to do things.
Yeah.
So Robin is like such animportant cat. I just love her in
this. And she's funny.
Yeah.
She. And she. The fact thatshe like immediately is like, oh,
I can. I can decode this andactually does it.
Yeah.
Is just. It's so good. She's.Kids are so smart and they're allowed

(35:07):
to be smart in their differentways. Right. Because the show kind
of makes fun of Steve for notbeing the smartest. Right. That there's
so many jokes about how hedoes in school. But Steve is also
a good problem solver in otherways. When they're in a crisis. Steve
is a pretty good. Like all ofthe characters bring something to

(35:29):
the table that's reallyimportant. I love that about.
I think one of his.
I think one of Steve's.Steve's greatest attributes that.
That as his superpower.Somebody say, what's the superpower?
It's his self awareness. Hisability to reflect and to be able
to say, yeah, I kind of wasn'tgreat or yeah, I could have handled
that differently and then makethe adjustments to like be better

(35:51):
like his. That is.
And that's a skill. Likepeople just. It's easy to hand wave
that but it's like to meetmoments and be like, oh crap.
Like, yeah, that was not thebest. Let me go and read. Let me
go. Try to make amends andmake that better. I really respect
Steve and to it.
And as part of that to admitwhen you're wrong when you miss the
mark. That's such a hard thingfor people to do. And yet Steve does

(36:17):
it all the time.
I agree.
So he just. Robin and Steve aplus grouping better. Not better
than. But even more complex inthe Dustin Steve matchup. Which is
great. And maybe that's just atestament of Steve's character. If
you put him in with anybody,maybe we'll immediately love that

(36:42):
dynamic. But I will say Ididn't love the Eddie and Steve dynamic
in season four. So, you know,I just. I. I think that Robin brings
something to the show that wedidn't know we needed. Yeah, I thought
we were good.
Yeah.
Going to season three, I waslike, I thought we were good.
Yeah. No, I agree. I love it.I love it. You know, and, And. And
little meta. But thank Godfor. For Uma and Ethan. They gave

(37:05):
us another great character.
She's. She's absolutely, like,there's so much discourse about Nepo
babies the last few years, butshe actually absolutely owns this
role.
I agree.
No, I don't care if she. Ifshe got the role because of who her
parents are. I really don'tcare either. She. She's so good.
Is Robin. Like, I could notimagine someone else playing this

(37:27):
part this well. She is Robinto me. It just. She does it. She
does a great job of that.
No, I totally agree. I'm soglad that they cast her. And it was.
And. And because of that exactreason, like, I think the dynamic
between her and Steve isgreat. I think the dynamic between
her and Dustin is great. Ithink all. She's just, like, really
good. And I. She's.
We'll talk about this inseason five.
In episodes five througheight, but she's.

(37:48):
She's really no fan of Nancy,and, And. And Steve had to grow on
her at this point. So I think.I mean, I guess what I want.
To talk about, if I'm thinkingabout it, is, is I think I want to
talk about the newspaper,because we kind of went over it,
but we didn't really go intodetail. And, you know, I think specifically

(38:13):
I.
Was really wondering aboutyour thoughts on.
It, because I know that, youknow, this is something that you've
done before in your life.You've worked in newsrooms.
So how did. Like, what did youthink from that perspective?
The time period that we're in?How much. I don't know how much has
changed, you know, in thatprofession, and I know neither one
of us are in that professiontoday currently, but you have. Have

(38:35):
been there. And I mean, thesexism was atrocious, and just the
vibe of, like, not even tryingto get to the truth was also very
much on display. So what areyour thoughts when you saw this,
when you were watching this?
I also worked for a smallnewspaper for a while, and it was

(38:58):
a news newsroom that wasmainly controlled by men. And there
were some other thingshappening, but I. No one ever disrespected
me to the. How Nancy. Nancy'sbeing disrespected and. But I also
was an intern. I had beenhired as a reporter. But I could
definitely see that therewere. There was sexism in our newsroom.

(39:20):
For sure. That was pretty onchecked. Like the leadership did
not check it. It was notcoming from leadership. I actually
thought our leadership did agood job of trying to encourage the
female reporters, but the malereporters and some of the editors

(39:42):
of. Of different sectionscould do and say really sexist things.
And it was essentiallyunchecked. I, you know, I remember
complaining about it to one ofmy editors and he kind of brushed
it off. So Nancy's. I relateto Nancy a lot. And also, you know,
in season four, Nancy wants togo to Emerson College. That's where
I went. So I relate to Nancy alot. I do think that Nancy takes

(40:07):
some. I'm not crazy about thisstoryline for Nancy. I think that
Nancy does some stuff herethat is clearly unexpected, ethical,
not journalistic. She puts herand Jonathan's jobs on the line without
much consent from Jonathan andthen gets mad at Jonathan when he's
upset about that, which is.The show kind of plays it like Jonathan
is wrong. Jonathan actuallyhas bills to pay and like Nancy does

(40:34):
not. Nancy is very privileged.That said, I love the conversation
that comes out of this for herand Karen. That conversation between
her and Karen is so importantto me. It kind of is a callback to
the season one conversationwhere Karen is like, can you can
tell me anything after shecomes back the night that Barb goes

(40:57):
missing and her. And her andSteve did the deed and she didn't
want to talk to her mom aboutit. I love the conversation between
it. I also, like. Later in theseason, Karen chose herself to be
a very intuitive mom. And I dowant to talk in a moment about Karen

(41:17):
in this entire season, becauseKaren has some wild moments.
Very wild.
There's some wild moments,yes. But I. I don't love all of the
stuff that's going on the plotline. It seems pretty clear the.
The Hawkins Post plot line. Itseems pretty clear to me that, like,
the. The writers don'tactually understand that Nancy is,

(41:40):
like, largely in the wrong fora lot of the stuff that she pulls
in this. However, that doesnot excuse the sexism that she experiences.
And calling Nancy. Nancy Drew.It's not an own. What do you.
Yeah, Bruh. Nancy Drew.
Never read a name.
I was like. I was like, yeah,she's amazing. Like, what do you
guys.
Yeah, exactly.

(42:01):
I would have Been like. And what?
Yeah.
Yes, exactly. I am Nancy Drew.
Exactly.
But, you know, the guys in thenewsroom were in colluding with the
mayor or whatever and thentaken over by the mind Flayer. Love
that for them.
Yeah, me too.
Love that for them.
Me too. I was.
Karma is a bitch.
Just again, like.

(42:23):
And the guy in the nude room.
Who kept calling her NancyDrew was giving me Biff energy again.
Biff from Biff from Back tothe Future.
Like, definite Biff energy.
Like, not the main editor inchief, but the other dude.
Yeah. I think I largely agreewith your.
Take on the whole thing. Ithink the one thing that I kind of

(42:44):
go a little bit more with theduffers on is I don't think that
what. I totally agree thatwhat you're doing in ethical. I do
think that there's a nuancewith Jonathan that although he had
bills to pay and he was justtrying to do whatever to keep his
head down and pay his bills.Any steps up to the plaintiff. But
there was a.
There was a. There was alittle level of being.

(43:06):
Like, complicit, I think, iswhat they were trying to capture.
They didn't capture very wellthat he knew that they weren't going
to bother him, so he was okayin some ways with them bothering
her. And I think that's whereshe's pushing back. But I think where
he's pushing back to yourpoint is.
Yeah, but you're super privileged.
If you don't do thisinternship, like, you're going to

(43:26):
be just fine to go and dowhatever. I'm not. Like, I literally
have to, like, make money,like you're saying.
So I think that's the one place.
I kind of intern. Yeah, she'san intern. I was an intern.
Me, too.
Interns don't get to breaknews. Like, that's not. You're an
intern now. Getting coffee iswrong. Like, that shouldn't. In lunch.

(43:46):
That shouldn't be her job.She's not going to learn anything
from that.
I mean, I did that. I didn'tlearn anything from that. I went
to 4 years of film school andfreaking went PA.
Taking driving vans andgetting lunch and taking out.
You know, when you first geton a film set. Like, so to your point,
that is the job, what she's doing.
So I do think that she's kindof dragging it a little bit. That's

(44:09):
the part that I thinkJonathan's right on.
Would have never been hiredto. In fairness to Nancy, like, she
would have never been hired toget called Coffee and lunch if she
was a boy.
That's true.
You know, and so that part ofit is very sexist and, and wrong.
Like I said, Nancy's not righthere, but she's not entirely wrong
either. They're definitelytreating her badly. You know, the

(44:32):
conversation between her andKaren kind of summarizes my feelings
about it. Like, don't let themdiminish you, basically, is what
Karen says. And so. And she's,she's very smart, but sometimes she's
too smart for her own good.
Right.
I would like to remind theclass that Nancy Wheeler went into

(44:52):
the Upside down alone inseason one.
Bruh, bruh.
What are we doing? Nancy isalways like, I got this covered,
girl. You don't always got it,bro. Okay?
Especially that when they goin and.
The old ladies eatingfertilizer. You ain't got it. No,
that's it. They were like,what is happening?

(45:14):
Listen, like I said, I loveNancy. I stand Nancy, but you know,
sometimes she needs to comeoff her high horse. Which is why
I'm delighted when she andRobin get together in season four,
because she, she did a little,A little humbling. Like Robin was
like, not everyone is a tryhard Nancy. Like a beasy 100%.

(45:37):
So I mean, so I guess thelast, I mean, the last relationship
we.
Kind of, I mean, kind of getinto for this, these four seasons,
I think, I mean, these fourepisodes is the Will and Mike episode
dynamic. And I really. It'schanging, right? Like if they still,
like we spoke a little bitabout it, about his comment that
wasn't the main thing in therelationship for the most part. I

(45:59):
think, like, they're good inthis season, but there's some tension
when it comes down to growingup. And the party's changing and
they're not playing D and D asmuch. And I think he's, you know,
like really, really.
I think, I think he's.
He's struggling with like,what this means, what. Where he fits
into this. And I think hefinds his footing a little bit more

(46:20):
once they realize that hisability to sense where the Mind Flayer
is is an asset to the wholeparty. And it becomes important to
him to play that role, like inthe sauna episode.
But I think it's a difficult.It's strained.
It's strained a little bit. Iwould say it started off strained
in these first three episodeswith Mike and Will.

(46:41):
This is not a great Willseason. They just. I don't think
they knew what to do with Willat this point in the story. But I
do think that this season doessomething really important, which
is it sets up Will as, onceagain, an outsider in the. In group.
He's really struggling withhow everybody has moved on and has

(47:05):
different interests now. AndI. I get it. That's. That's middle
school.
Yeah.
You know, so much of middleschool in high school is the evolution
of who your people are, whobecome your people, who's your tribe.
And some people don't findtheir tribe until they're well into
adulthood. But I think thatWill felt really safe with this group

(47:29):
of people. He thought thatthey were gonna play D and D together.
He was gonna be in this worldwhere he understood the rules.
Yeah.
Right. And then it's a placeof safety for him. And I also don't
think that it's acknowledgedby the group how much time he's lost.

(47:51):
Right.
He lost time not just from theseven days he was in the Upside down
or whatever, but fromrecovering from that experience,
from recovering from beingpossessed by the Mind Flayer. Will.
Will has lost time. He's lostemotional growth that he would have
otherwise had if he had anormal. A normal life. And so I just

(48:18):
wish that the group wouldtreat with Will with the same empathy
this season as they treat Lthis season. L gets treated with
such love and compassion byher friends this season. I actually
had forgotten that element ofit. The. And this comes later, but,
like, the fighting over, doesshe even need to use her power? Should

(48:40):
she be using her powers inthis way? Mike is so protective of
her. Hopper is obviouslyextremely protective of her, but
so are. Is everybody else.Nancy and Max and all these people
really come to try to shieldl, try to be her strength, try to
prop her up, try to make sureshe's okay. Will, I feel like this

(49:04):
season doesn't get as much ofthat, and maybe it's because he's
gotten so much of itpreviously, but I just. The Will
and Mike dynamic, I reallystruggle with. And I think we should.
We should acknowledge that inthe fandom there is a feeling that
this is a relationship thatmight become a queer relationship,

(49:27):
that Will and Mike mighteventually become a couple. I personally
don't see that that writinghas been done on Mike's side. I think.
I think it's certainly beendone on Will's side. And I could
see that Will clearly hasfeelings for Mike in season four.
That's. I think that's. That'sa really clean interpretation of

(49:50):
season four, but I'm not quiteseeing it for Mike's end yet. But
Maybe. Well, with these hourand a half episodes, hour and a half
long episodes, who knows?
Yeah, that was what I was.
Who knows? You know, seasonfive, we about to get like eight
movies, so that's Maybe. Maybethey'll develop it.

(50:11):
Yeah. And I think that's.That's where I.
It's.
It's definitely possible. AndI definitely. But I definitely feel
like that's where I was.
I was thinking about in thedynamic is the DND piece is part
of it. But, like, when youthink about the party, everybody
is like, booed up, you know,or peered up in some sort of way.
And. And so, you know, evenDustin, where you think they were

(50:35):
excited, they surprised him,he comes back, he's like, oh, I'm
going to take you all on amission with my ham radio because
I want to go talk to mygirlfriend, and that's the only way
I can talk to her. So now evenDustin is like, that's his mission.
And I thought that, okay,that's already tough. But then the
extra dynamic is.
Was that I'm always. I waswrestling with. And watching this
again is okay because. Andsome of it is like. Because we know

(50:56):
what happens in season four alittle bit.
Was in this moment, was he jealous.
Of the relationship of Ellen,Mike, you know what I mean? Was he
jealous of, you know, was heupset with not only Mike, but maybe
even L. Like. Because, like,you know, in his mind, she's the
one who's kind of changed thisdynamic by coming into the group
quite a bit. Right.
So I don't know. I don't knowwhat. I don't know where we're gonna

(51:18):
land.
On that in season five. I knowwhere it goes in season four, which
we'll get a chance to talkabout. But I, I did. I did want to
touch on the fact that Ithink, like, you know, I agree with
you that they could have beena little bit more sensitive to. To
Will. He kind of just ends upserving the purpose of, like, again,
loss of innocence even to talkabout in the end. And also this.

(51:41):
This kind of like humandetector. Detector.
The whole. Yeah, back of the neck.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're here.
Like, that is such anoverdone. It's kind of like Elle's
nosebleed. Like, it's kind of.Kind of just like overdone. It almost
makes Will feel like a prop inthe rest of the season and not an
actual character.

(52:02):
Agreed.
And while. While Joyce has,like, multiple meltdowns about the
kids when she's with Hopperand she's like, we got to get to
the kids. Right. She. It's notreal. Like, I don't know. I didn't
feel that her connection toWill really stood out in this season
at all. Like, one of my earlycriticisms was season three, which

(52:22):
I've. I've had since it aired,was actually. The groups were too
separated. You had the scooptroop doing their whole thing in
the mall. You had the kids whoeventually end up in the supermarket.
Right. The. The originalparty, plus Ellen, Max, they end

(52:43):
up in the supermarket. Youhave Joyce and Hopper off on an entirely
separate plot line that'srelated, but only. We only really.
It only converges later. Andthen you got Nancy and Jonathan detecting.
Like, it's. It was almost toosplit up in the early. Especially

(53:03):
in episodes one through four.I felt very strongly that there were
too many different storylines,and I missed some of the dynamics
that made me love the story tobegin with. Like, I don't even remember.
Does Joyce and Will have ascene together in chapters one through
four? I don't know. Recallone. I think the first time we see

(53:24):
Joyce, she's in the store.
Yeah.
So, yeah, I just. I think thatyou. We kind of, like, lost that
now. It does all convergetogether eventually in an incredible
last two episodes.
Right.
Season chapters seven andeight are phenomenal.
Amazing.
Great tv. Basically a movie.

(53:45):
Yeah, amazing.
Really well done. But it waskind of hard for me to. I struggled
through that earlier fewepisodes because there's things missing,
like dynamics we're used tonow. We do get the new dynamics.
We get Robin, we get Erica.But again in season four, then Erica

(54:07):
kind of falls to the. A littlebit to the wayside. They don't give
her that much to do. So, youknow, I think this is just like a
really big world with a lot ofcharacters that we love, and it's
hard to get them allintegrated into this story. And probably
there are scenes that wereshot and cut out and that messes
with the connective tissue ofthe story, but I did really struggle

(54:27):
with that. And we. We talked alot about the parenting that Hopper
does, but we didn't talk muchabout the. The Wheelers and that
dynamic, which is funnybecause they gave. They kind of give
Mrs. Wheeler Wheeler her ownstoryline in the beginning. And then
Joyce and Hopper's littleromantic. I'm gonna call it an entanglement.

(54:50):
Yeah, an entanglement. Anentanglement. Entanglement.
Little flashback.
And so all of those thingscome together and create this really
complex story that I enjoy,but it didn't quite flow the way
I was used to the show being alittle bit effortless.
Agreed. I agree.

(55:12):
You know, if some of it felt alittle, like a little bit forced.
Yeah.
I mean. Yeah.
And.
And good on them. They'redoing a lot of work on.
The front end of this that,like you said, they end up landing
in the second half, which, youknow, we'll talk. Talk about.
But the one thing that we knowfor sure is that shout out to Murray.

(55:36):
He knew what he was talkingabout. He was right. He knew. He
knew it was the Ruskis. Heknew the whole time that he.
He was like, yeah, this is the Russians.
And he knew they wereexperimenting with the Upside Down.
You know, we also learned inthis episode that the Mind Flayer
never really left.

(55:57):
I think. I think, like, that'sa. That's a interesting takeaway
that.
I mean, at first I alwaysthought the Mind Flayer was like,
when they.
Closed the portal, lockedinside the portal.
It feels like that wasn'treally so much, I guess. I guess
through what the Russians are.
Doing, they're kind of openingthe portal again, opening that. That
place.

(56:17):
But it still feels like that line.
That comes later about, youinvited us. You have to let us stay.
Like, it feels very much likethey never really left.
Yeah. This is a little bitambiguous. I'm not sure it's as clear
as I think. Like, I think theduffers would say this is what happened

(56:43):
here is clear. I'm not surethat I'm as clear on it. And I've
tried to unpack this a fewtimes, but I still have questions.
So what we learn is that theMind Flayer finds a new host in Billy.
But is this the shard of theMind Flayer that was trapped in the
world when l closed the gateand just found Billy, just went to

(57:05):
Billy instead. Or is it thatthe Russians let through, let the
Mind Flayer find a new route?Like, it's a little bit. You see
what I'm saying? Like, the.They're. Alexi kind of explains in.
In, I think, episode five. Sowe're not quite there yet. What the.

(57:27):
You know, that there was a. Awound and it didn't fully heal. L
closed the gate, but shedidn't perfectly seal it. I mean,
the poor girl almost dieddoing it, so she did her best. But
one thing I never was clearon, and this was in season two's
finale, is the Mind Flayerleaves Will's body. Or so we think.

(57:55):
Some traces of it stay behind. Right.
Still sense. Yeah, right.
Right. And then, like, thegate gets closed. But it seems pretty
clear from that, that shard ofthe Mind Flayer was still out in
the world. So I, I'm still notclear on. On what, what they're saying
happened here.

(58:15):
Yeah. And we learned.
I also think.
Sorry.
Oh, sorry. I also think maybeit doesn't matter that much. Maybe
like, this, this might be anarea where, like, the duffers are
like, really, we gave the MindFlayer, like, two ways it could have
attacked, attached itself to.
Yeah.
Billy, why are you guysharping on how it did it? You know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure.
Possibility.
No, for sure. But I think, Ithink that's one of the things.

(58:38):
That's one of the things thatthey. They have. They. They do better
work in. In season four. Butit's. If I had to, somebody would
say, well, you got to have onecriticism, because it's very hard.
This show is so great. It'shard to criticize it. Right. Like,
besides the episode, you know,certain things, that one episode
that we talked about last timethat people don't really love, I
think the other criticismwould be giving us enough context

(59:02):
for the magic and this and thescience. They do some things, but
it feels very like, highlevel, like here and there. Like,
you know, they'll talk aboutthe electromagnetic field interference,
and they'll use like, youknow, Mr. Clark to kind of explain
these things and about, like,you know, the, The. The. The basic.
The tightrope and like,different in the many worlds theory.

(59:24):
But the thing that, like, youknow, we'll talk about it more in
the next episode too. Thething I don't, you know, I don't
understand is we learn moreabout the mind flare there too. That,
that there's a. That it cannot only infiltrate the body, but
can be. Infiltrate parts ofthe body, but not the whole person.
So there's like, things thatdon't really make a lot.
I'm not really sure thatthey're explaining very well in this

(59:47):
particular season that I thinkthey cleaned up a lot in season four.
I think they cleaned up a lotin season four, but this season.
Agreed. And. And I think someof that ambiguousness was intentional.
That, like, they knew theywere still building out the. The
end game to the story, and sothey wanted to have some wiggle room

(01:00:09):
with the magic, which I thinkis actually really smart.
Yeah.
I do not begrudge writers whogive themselves some space, because
as a person who watched allthe seasons of the Vampire Diaries
and then watch the Originals,they were. They Were building new
rules every season. Like,well, we said this last season, but
there's an exception. There'salways an exception. And so I think.

(01:00:33):
I think it's fine. Like, I'mnot. I don't lose sleep over how
did Billy get possessed?Because I think they. They've given
us multiple ways, and maybeI'm just not watching. Like, I'm
not interpreting it the wayit's meant to be interpreted. That's
also a possibility. Neitheryou or I are Stranger things experts.
We're just.
We're just fans. Yeah,exactly. Of the world. Yeah. And
I think.

(01:00:53):
And I think, like, I think, like.
One of the things that I wouldthink about with, With. With, like,
we're talking about magic andwhat it is. Like, we. We notice El's
powers are changing. Like,this is a new thing that we learn,
that she can go in and speakto people from the Void so they can
hear her and get them to dothings, or she's spying on him. And

(01:01:14):
so what does that mean? Like,in the grand scheme of things, about
the awareness of the MindFlayer of her when she's in the Void.
And I think, like, you know,she's saying that the Void is safe,
but is it safe? You know whatI mean? Is it safe? And I think we'll

(01:01:35):
find out more about that too,as we continue on. Obviously, we're
not a spoiler free podcast. Wekind of know if you watch the show
that it's safe. Ish. Not safecompletely, but safe ish. There's
things that she can do. Itallows her a way to move around.
But how much of that isallowed is the question. I don't
know yet.

(01:01:56):
Yeah, I think the early piece,when they're spying on Billy and
he senses her there, is kindof foreshadowing that the Mind Flayer's
powers are actually evolving.Like Elle's powers, I think, are
getting stronger because we'reseeing El do some things she hasn't
done before with moreprecision. Right, right. We'll see

(01:02:17):
in. In the next few episodesthat Elle essentially can go into
Billy's mind and look around,which she's done before. Right. When
she. She met her mother,Terry. But it wasn't precise and
it was with Terry's consent.And we'll talk more about that next

(01:02:39):
week. I mean, next episode.But the fact that she can be sensed
by the Mind Flayer should havebeen a red flag. Yeah, well, I guess
she didn't know it was theMind Flayer, but should have been
a Red flag.
Yeah. Billy's like, oh, hesees me. Yeah, for sure.
So what themes do you want tocover? I think we've covered a lot
of them. We've talked about.
We've covered them all. Yeah.
I was just thinking we'vecovered a lot.
We pretty much covered all ofthe themes that we're going to talk

(01:03:02):
about. We talked. Talked aboutthe growing up and holding on and
how friendships andrelationships evolve. We talked about
the female agency with Elle,Max and Nancy all having moments
where they're making choicesabout who they want to be in the

(01:03:24):
world. And it's funny, wedidn't really talk about Karen and
Billy, but it's funny becauseKaren is a conduit for some of those
conversations.
Right.
For. For some of that theme.And she also makes a choice about
who she wants to be in theworld. Right. She decides to stay
with her family, not to stepout on Ted, even though.

(01:03:48):
Yeah, listen. God bless.
Listen, Karen, you should finda man your age and leave Ted behind.
Leave.
Yeah.
I mean, Ted is not. Ted is notan attentive husband, nor is he an
attentive father, butwhatever, you know, they love each
other.
I get.

(01:04:09):
I mean, she decided, like, Ithink that's.
I think that's one of thethings with her advice when that
makes it so powerful, heradvice to Nancy, because I think
like this, you know, you. Youkind of look at her life and you
think to yourself, well, man,she has all this wisdom, not only
through lived experience, butbecause she has the same. She has
that same thing that. That wesee in Nancy, that. That like, pushing

(01:04:32):
for something different, beinglike. And you almost like. Like trying
to reaching for more, youknow, out of yourself and out of
your life and what you wantand you almost want. She's trying
to keep that alive. And Nancy.And you almost wonder where she stopped
letting that be true forherself. You know, I mean, where
was the moment where she waslike, oh, you know what? This is

(01:04:54):
enough. I'll just. This is.This is. This is a fine enough life.
Like, I'll just settle for this.
You know, this is, again,great storytelling because I don't
think they've told us thisabout Karen at all. But because of
what we know, I think Karenwas probably one of those young women
who just chose a safer pathand decided that she wasn't going

(01:05:15):
to let her daughter do that.
Yeah.
You know, I think that she.She did the traditional thing. She
got married fairly young,because I think Karen is only supposed
to be, like, in her mid tolate 30s. She got married fairly
young. She married someone whowas financially stable. But maybe
she didn't. Wasn't head overheels in love. I'm sure her and Ted,

(01:05:36):
she liked Ted. They had a goodrelationship. And she went down a
path that wasn't. Didn'treally take big risk. And now she's
got these two, these threeyoung people that are her children.
I don't think she wants themto do the same. I think she wants
Nancy and Mike and Holly topursue their dream dreams. And now

(01:05:57):
that she has made thesacrifice that they've grown up in
a financially securesituation, they can do that. We don't
know if Karen had that optionwhen she was, you know, Nancy's age.
Maybe Karen. First of all,Karen didn't have. Probably didn't
have as many options of whereto go to college.
Right, right.
You know, I mean, in fairness,Nancy's going to a school that was

(01:06:18):
originally an all girlsschool. So it's a little, you know,
like Emerson was initially.
I love your Emerson alumnilike thing. It's like super hard
right now.
Meant to wear my Emerson shirttoday, but then I decided, because
this is a total aside, this islike a total tangent. When that shirt

(01:06:40):
premiered on Stranger Things,the Emerson community was so tickled
by it that they actuallycreated. That was the old design
of Emerson shirts. That designstill existed when I was a freshman
at Emerson, but Emerson wentthrough a rebrand and so they re.
They bought back that design.So now I have in the same color,

(01:07:01):
Nancy Wheeler's T shirt withmy alma mater on it. So listen, great
for the. I don't. And I'venever been able to find the connection.
I've never been able to findthe connection. The duffers did not
go to Emerson. I could notfind a single person in the writing
room who went to Emerson. Theyjust picked Emerson for some reason.
Really?
Yeah, there's no. There's noreal connection there that I can

(01:07:24):
find. I. There's a producer, Ithink, who may have attended Emerson
for graduate school, but eventhat connection was a little tenuous.
So I don't know.
My professor, the professorand the head of the film department
I was in, in college, ended upleaving our school and going to become
the dean at Emerson a littleafter you graduated. And I always

(01:07:47):
think about that when I seeEmerson's stuff. I think about you
and I think.
About him and I think about the.
Many times they kicked mydaughter. Went to school in Boston,
so kicked our ass in volleyball.
And I had to, like, tell you.
Your school beat us.
Yeah, I mean, we. The. Thewomen's sports at Emerson were. Were
quite good when I was there. Idon't know if they're still good.
Yeah, very good.
But, like, this is such a tinyschool. But the pride. I remember

(01:08:10):
the Emerson alum Facebookgroup went nuts when this episode
came out. They were like, lookat Nancy. She's got the old design.
So there's a Back to Karen.
There's a similar reactionthat we'll get back to in season
four that I will talk about tothe kids at.
School in season four.
There's a similar reactionthat I'll talk about.

(01:08:34):
I remember that. Yeah. So backto Karen and Nancy. I just think
that she wants Nancy to makesmarter choices than her because
she had. She can.
Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, I think. I think. Andanyway, I'm a. I'm a Wheeler family.
Women of the Wheeler family.Stan. I love Karen, Love Nancy, Mike

(01:08:55):
and Ted. I could do it with.
How we doing with Holly? Howare we doing Holly on the bubble?
Let's see. She has some good.
She has a good moment later inthe season.
Let's see what happens nextseason. Let's go.
Well, we'll. We will talk alot more about Holly Wheeler. Holly
next. Next episode. Because Ihave. I got some.
I got some takes. So I guessI'll just say this.
To close out this particularrun of episodes. You know, I think,

(01:09:18):
like, we talked a lot aboutthe introduction of identity and
forming your own identity,finding your ability to connect to
what that means, and theevolving nature of relationships
and change, the lostinnocence. But I also think we would
be remiss to not talk aboutclosing the symbolism of what's happening

(01:09:44):
in this portion of the story.The magnets really do serve as an
object that's showing that,hey, something's not working here.
And it's really a metaphor forthe whole town. Something's not working.
Can we ever have something atHawkins that's introduced that doesn't
have something underneath itthat's. That's really tough to.

(01:10:05):
Really rotten. Right?
So the.
It's the.
It's the American dream turnedupside down. Like, they have a mall.
It's glittering. It'sbeautiful, but beneath it, there
is.
Definitely a rotting core andsomething that you have to look at.
And I think that.
The cost of.
Progress is always on displayin this storytelling that they're

(01:10:29):
telling in this show. And Ifind it fascinating every time we
get the nostalgia, but we alsofeel the trauma of what it takes
to move things forward and tochange and to progress. It seems
like they're making astatement here about progress and
its cost.
Totally. We see. We see thatin the characters. We see that in

(01:10:52):
the town. We see that in eventhe. The more nefarious elements,
like, they're. They're makingprogress, too, but it requires sacrifice.
So I. I think that's a varioustwo observation, especially about

(01:11:13):
the symbolism of the magnetsof the mall. It's. It's all there.
Great.
So, yeah, so that'll do it forseason three, episodes one through
four. We will be back nextepisode to cover season three, episodes
five through eight. We justappreciate you all traveling with

(01:11:36):
us to Hawkins. Hit us upKinfolklor Pod on Instagram, also
on Tik Tok and Twitter, andhit us up [e-mail]
and we will see you next time.
Bye, everyone.