Kinfolklore: Stranger Things Sn.3 (Chapters 5-8)

Welcome back to Kinfolklore, where Andrea and Paul dive deep into the fantasy and sci-fi worlds we love. Few shows capture that blend of nostalgia, terror, and friendship quite like Stranger Things.

This episode, we’re rewinding all the way back to Hawkins, Indiana, Fall 1985. The mall is packed, the fireworks are flying, and the monsters are multiplying. In preparation for the final season dropping this November, Andrea and Paul are rewatching every episode from the very beginning, continuing their coverage here with Season 3, Chapters 5-8

Episode Transcript

(00:10):
Welcome back to Kin Folklore.We're still in the summer of 1985
in Hawkins, Indiana. The mallis still packed, the fireworks are
flying and the monsters are multiplying.
Yes, there's a lot of them.
They're multiplying. I'm Andrea.
And I'm Paul. And these finalchapters of season three. Take everything
we love about the show. Thefriendships, the chaos, the nostalgia.

(00:31):
Nostalgia. And crank it up to11. The My Players New host is on
the loose. The Russians areclosing in, and the kids are fighting
battles that feel a lot moregrown up than before. The stakes
have gotten a lot higher.
Today we're covering seasonthree, chapters five through eight.

(00:55):
The back half of the season,where all of the secrets unravel,
heroes rise, and fireworksturn extremely deadly. If you haven't
seen seen through chaptereight, hit pause, go back and binge.
Come right back. And asalways, this podcast is not spoiler
free. We will be discussingall four seasons of Stranger Things.

(01:17):
We have not seen season fiveyet, so we can't talk about that,
but everything else is fair game.
We all die, my strange littlechild friends. It's just a matter
of how and when. But untilthat day, kinfolklore will have adult
content. So if you're here forthe declaration of undying love,
while the subject of thatdeclaration of undying love is searching

(01:40):
for monsters in the void. Ormaybe you think that there's never
a bad time to break out into aduet of the Never Ending Story. I
don't know. Maybe you've cometo the right place. Let's go. I love
that. I love that scene, bythe way. We're going to talk about
it more. It's absolutely.
Oh, it's so good.
It's great. It's great. Oh, mygosh. Both of those seeds. So we're

(02:03):
gonna talk about. We'll kickthis off with our summary of episode
five and six, the Flayed and EPluribus Unum. The Scoops troop.
Steve, Dustin, Robin, Erica.They get trapped in a secret Russian
elevator. Ah, they'rescreaming. It's like, whatever. All

(02:25):
I can think of is, damn,they're not gonna get home. Parents
are going to be. What the hell?
No, there's no worry aboutparents because Erica has Tina to
cover for her. Why is there a9 year old who needs a friend to
cover for her anyway?
Gosh, it's so good.
I just can't. I can't.

(02:46):
So they take this Russianelevator beneath Star Court, mixing
claustrophobic terror with theperfect comedy. Hopper and Joyce
and their Unlikely. Tag alongAlexei. And escape. The Russian assassin
that is looking a lot likeArnold Schwarzenegger. Like, I mean,
continues to just beeverything that's. That has to. It's

(03:07):
crazy. And they steal Todd'sconvertible. Yo, Todd is. Todd Gets
an honorary award. Like, thisfucking convertible lasts very, very
long in this plot. And becauseof Todd's. That's convertible. Many
things happen. So, Todd, thankyou for being a Good Samaritan. Yes,
you were urged by Hopper, butyou still gave it up Grand Theft

(03:29):
Auto style.
It's good Hopper stole thiscard. Let's just be honest about
it. The lawlessness in thisseason, it's just. Just complete
lawlessness.
Gta. He's out here. Like,let's go. They head to Murray's place.
Just tie this up for mebecause I don't remember any. How
do Hopper and Murray know eachother? Do we know that Hopper. Murray

(03:49):
knew each other before this moment?
Oh, yes. Murray pops into thepolice station, right? In season
two, right? And Hopper islike, yeah, yeah, yeah, right, okay.
Aliens, Russian. Like, totallygaslighting Murray. Like, totally
gaslighting him.
Oh, my God. So, yeah, okay, sowe do. All right, so they go to Murray's

(04:13):
for some decoding and somesarcasm. Meanwhile, Nancy and Jonathan
reconnect just in time for thehospital fight where Tom and Bruce
from the Hawkins Press, theones who call her out of her name
and have all the freakingmisogyny that you. That you could
stuff into an old school 1980sshort sleeve dress shirt, they end

(04:36):
up coming after the two ofthem. They melt into the Mind Flayer
or whatever. I guess it is theMind Flayer, the organism that's
become the Mind Flayer. It's aweird blob, kind of so strange. And
they merge in and become onewith one of the show's grossest creations.
Is this the Mind Flayer? Isthis just a blob? I have no idea
what it is, but it's reallygross. Alexei finally spills the

(04:59):
truth. He says the Russiansare reopening the gate because there's
a wound from last. The woundfrom last year started to close,
but never really healed.Dustin and Erica bicker through tunnels.
She is a nerd. Just for therecord. Steve gets tortured and Robin
cracks jokes under truthserum. Love them. On the truth serum

(05:22):
it is. Well, we'll get moreinto that. One of the season's most
emotional sequences. Elleenters Billy's mind, uncovering his
tragic California childhood.Billy's dad is an. How did Max's
mom end up with Him. Jesus.He's the worst. Also finds the flare's
origin point. Like provingthat the monster feeds on trauma

(05:45):
and not just flesh.
Oh, that scene, that Billyscene is rough. It's also beautiful.
It's one of their. Their bestshot scenes. Episodes 7 and 8, the
Bite and the Battle of StarCourt. The Fourth of July fireworks
light up Hawkins while chaoserupts everywhere else. The Mind

(06:08):
Flayer attacks Hopper's cabinfirst, biting Elle and leaving her
significantly injured andweakened. Scoops troop high on that
truth serum, stumble into aBack to the Future screening. While
Hopper, Joyce, Murray andAlexi head to the fair, which is

(06:28):
where they think the kids are.Alexi wins a carnival prize, has
a taste of sweet freedom anddies. Dies.
Sad.
So brutal.
And Murray was waving his.Maybe Murray's hyped and waving corn
dogs as it goes down. I mean,the background scene of him waving

(06:51):
the corn dogs was so. I waslike, good Lord. Murray has no idea
what's about to happen. Really sad.
It's so painful. Like it's a.It's an absolutely terrible.
Yeah.
Alexi, we. We didn't get toreally know you.
Yeah.
Everything eventuallyconverges at Starcourt Mall. The
flare hunts the kids. Joyceand Hopper fight their way to the

(07:12):
machine. And Elle has a hardtime. She really struggles to use
her powers.
Yeah.
Dustin and Susie have savedthe day with planks. Constant. And
the unforgettable story. NeverEnding Story theme so good.

(07:34):
Never so good. Oh, my God,it's so.
I love that movie. Like allthe time. I'm rediscovering, like,
what were my gateways to fantasy.
Yeah.
And now I'm like. Oh,actually, like when I was like five,
I was obsessed with the NeverEnding Story. Maybe that was it.
I loved it.

(07:54):
I love it.
I think, like, it was. I thinkit was. It was the Never Ending Story.
The Dark Crystal and theHobbit for me. Besides Star. Star
wars, obviously. And theHobbit. Not the Hobbit. Like the
Hobbit. The moon. The cartoon.Yeah. And. And those. And like the
freaking orcs were not ascrazy as what they made it. And it.

(08:17):
They actually sang in theHobbit cartoon. They freaking sang
We Wear a chain, a heavychain. And they had like a whole
sing along. Everything hadmusic back in the 80s. It just. Everything
was better with music. Okay,so Never Ending Story. That's. That's
a. That's a. It's a banger.It's a banger.
It's a. Such a. Such a greatmovie, but also such a Great song.
Yeah.
Billy gets his redemption arcwhen Elle reminds him of his childhood

(08:39):
joy. He sacrifices himself tosave the others. In my opinion, he
sacrifices himself because hedoesn't want Max to see this, see
him kill Elle. Basically.
Yeah.
Hopper seemingly dies, whichwe. We said this was not a spoiler
free podcast. As Joyce shutsdown the machine, leaving Elle and

(09:05):
Joyce absolutely devastated.The buyers leave. Hawkins and Hopper
had written a letter to L.Well, it was more of a. It was a
speech, and it delivers on theemotional core of the season. Love,
change, and the pain ofgrowing up.

(09:26):
Yeah, that's a tough. That'sa. That's a sequence for you. We're
going to dive deeper into it.Before we go any further, though,
let's take some time to pourone out for Alexi, the happiest defector
in TV history. Lover of LooneyTunes, master of dart throwing, popping

(09:52):
balloons. Can even overcome afixed game and defeat American capitalism
at the carnival games, asMurray laid it out. Let's also pour
one out for the flayed, whomelted into gooey monster masses
as they exploded into, like,one big mass. Billy Hargrove redeemed

(10:17):
through his sacrifice. And wewould be remiss if we didn't say
rip to Todd father.
Rip the Todd father. Manylives were saved because of that
car.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Iagree. This goes out to all our fallen
homies. Yo, the mod will.Don't let the drink get like that,

(10:47):
y'. All.
So how is. How is Todd gonnaexplain that his car went up in the
mall fire?
Did they ever be like, why was.
Why was your car in the mall?
Why would your mall. Yeah,Todd, why would your car here, like,
what were you doing here? I,I. My car was stolen. Promise. I
didn't do it. Oh, my gosh. Solet's talk about Smirnoff, AKA Alexi,

(11:12):
and how that whole thing jumpsoff with Joyce and Hopper. What do
you think about that whole storyline?
It was cute. Again, I'm not ahuge fan of the Joyce Hopper storyline
from this season. Yeah, the,The Russian elements of this story
don't hit with me. They justdon't. Season four, it's even worse.

(11:32):
Like, I don't. I get it. Like,the Cold War was going on during
this period. They have to havesome element. But, like, I don't
know. I don't. I don't feellike it's really played for anything
other than, like, a way. Like,to me, when I think of this season
and how it ends, I'm fullythinking of the Meta piece of it,

(11:55):
which is that David Harbourneeded some time to go work on a
movie in the mcu.
Yeah.
So they weren't sure. Theyweren't sure when he would be available
for season four or if he wouldbe available at all. And I just don't
care for it, but I do loveAlexi. Alexi's so funny. And the

(12:17):
whole exchange over, like, theSlurpees, it's just really funny.
Yeah. Yeah.
And also, like, a reminder,Alexi is like, kind of the first
more lower.
Level.
Worker who has gotten a storywho hasn't been, like, played as

(12:38):
a henchman. And it's areminder that a lot of the people
who were involved in thiswork, it wasn't by choice. They weren't
necessarily bad people. They.They thought that they were doing
something for science or they.They thought that they had no. I
mean, in Alexi's case, he hadno choice. Like, it was very. Made
very clear to him that heneeds to get this done or die.

(13:00):
Just like he saw the otherscientist die. For sure.
Yeah. And. And the way thatthe Russian soldiers become kind
of just like props and justmass murder. Like, Hopper kills so
many people in this episode,and it's just like he doesn't even
care. I think that, like, thatthat's why it doesn't. The Alexi

(13:24):
story, like, doesn't quitework as well because it's like one
minute, Hopper can see thatJoyce and Murray are devastated by
Alexei's loss. But then inlike, the next episode, Hopper just,
like, murders a bunch of thesoldiers. Like, I just. It doesn't.
This Russian plot never quiteworked for me.
Yeah. You know what? I thinkthat, you know, it's. There was an

(13:49):
old thing at tnt they used tohave, like, their slogan used to
be, like, movies for guys wholike movies. And they would take
all the craziest, like, moviesthat. From. From this time period
and they would throw them on.It'd be Rocky, it'd be Die Hard.
It'd be like. Right. And Ifeel like some ways in this season,
this was that season where itwas even to the Back to the Future,

(14:14):
like, references and thingscoming in, it was like every movie
they went overkill on thereference points. And so what I.
What I like when I look at theRussian plot, it reminds me of Die
Hard and the Terminator. Andit reminds me like the whole. Even
though there was kids doingit, the whole going down the elevator
and them going through thisbase and trying to figure it's very

(14:37):
Die Hard, like, we're in aplace we shouldn't be. We gotta move
quietly.
It also gives like the. Is itthe Tom Clancy books?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, man, Iknow what you're talking about.
The Jack is. Is that Jack Ryan?
Yeah, Jack Ryan and all that.Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(14:57):
Like it's giving that kind of.
Yeah. Born identity. And eventhey even make a joke about it because
they go, when Alexi says, youlook like a very plump Rambo, you
remind me of a very plumpRambo and I appreciate your bravery.
It's like, it's like, oh, mygosh. It's like, that's like the

(15:18):
joke, right? Like, and they'remaking references and you could say,
well, why does Alexi loveLooney Tunes and all those stuff?
I think a lot of it is justthat they're making reference to
what American perception wasin that time period of like how locked
down media was and what peoplecould watch in Russia and all those
things. So I don't know. I digthe nostalgia, but I do think that

(15:40):
there was. It was, it was.This was a season where they went
full in and they probably dida little too much. But then they
course correct around 7 and 8.I mean, I feel like everything feels
too much. And then seven oreight, they find a nice way to land
it. Episode seven and episodeeight with the emotional beats. I

(16:01):
mean, yeah, it's. It's soemotional. You just get so. I found
myself getting very worked upand just like, I can't believe this
is happening to these kids andI know what's gonna happen. I'm reflecting
back to when I first watched.I had no idea where this was going.
Felt the same way. And I'mwatching it this week and I'm like,
wow, I feel the same way Ifelt the first time I watched it.

(16:22):
So I. I think they did a goodjob with that with the emotional
beats.
The end of the season actuallycaught me by surprise because. Well
noted, this is not my favoriteseason. Even though I love the mall
stuff. There's so much.There's so much good in here and.
But I felt like I need torewatch it to appreciate it. Now
I've seen this season. This ismy third time actually, because I

(16:45):
do remember rewatching itleading up to season four. I like
it more with each watch, but Ihad totally forgotten about what's
kind of played as the epiloguewhen the kids are all saying goodbye.
The amount of sobbing I did, even.
Though I knew, yeah, yeah,yeah, me too.

(17:08):
It was just. It's so welldone. And yes, it speaks to them.
And I actually wonder, didthey. Did they think maybe David
harbor wasn't going to returnat that point? But it's so devastating
to think of Will and El beingpulled away from this core group

(17:30):
that has their entireidentities are wrapped around. This
is their fam. This is theirfound family. And it kind of makes
Joyce's choice. Not like it'snot. I. I can't understand it fully,
but then when I think about itas an adult, I'm like, yeah. Joyce
is like, yo, this town iscursed. It is now killed Bob. My

(17:52):
son is irreparably changed.Hopper's gone now, too. We have.
I have to get the people Ilove the most out of here.
Yeah.
So I get it, like, looking atit from through that lens. But, oh,
those last scenes are sopainful. And it's not even the most
painful thing to watch, like,Nancy and Jonathan say Goodby or

(18:15):
to watch Mike and Elle. It'sreally just the whole. You're almost
like watching a familybreakup. And to think that that's
in the same season that the,like, goofy Russian plot is in, it's
just. It feels disjointed to me.
Yeah, yeah, no, I can. I canget that. Because that's the stuff

(18:35):
that I really walked away fromthis season. And I felt like there
was a nuance to how they Even.How they. How they capture pain and
loss. Like, there's thisamazingly funny scene of Max and
Lucas trolling Dustin aboutthe Neverending Story and having

(18:56):
to sing it while he's on theradio at the end. And then there's
this, like, heartbreakingscene of Max just sitting, actually
reflecting by herself andobviously dealing with the trauma
of what just happened. So itgives you this balance, because at
first, when I see her rightafter, I'm like, wow, she's rebounding
well after losing her brotherbecause she's laughing and joking.

(19:19):
And then you see that, right?
But you also see that Maxdoesn't share how she's feeling with
everybody, which was reallygreat foreshadowing because that
then becomes a.
The plot point, right?Exactly. 100%. And so. And I thought
it was. And it was great thatthey let Elle and Mike have that
moment where Elle hadactually, like, heard exactly what

(19:41):
he said. It. It humanized Ellein a way, because she's always like,
I don't know what's going on.Can you explain that to me? Can you
do. And the fact is, like, shewas in that grocery store and she
was playing Mike on, like, I'mgonna make you say that you love
me. Like, she knew already inthat moment, and she's waiting. And
it was, like, so cool, like,to, like, see, like, that dynamic

(20:02):
taking shape and just theletter from Hopper, man, oh, man,
I'm getting choked up rightnow, like, thinking about, like,
the talk he wanted to havebefore he threatened Mike with bottle.
You know what I mean? Like,was so beautiful. It was so beautiful.
And, yeah, it sets the tonefor next season, but I just. I just
love the end of this season.And. And I do feel that the mall,

(20:27):
the crashing down again, likewe talked about in the previous episode,
the crashing down of the mall,the murder at the fair, and the loss
of, like, the person who hadgiven them the ability to save themselves
in that place, that. The lostinnocence in that moment of, like,
oh, okay. This fight feelsvery different. It feels like we.

(20:50):
We. Not only the kids arematuring, but the mind flayer and
this. This. This foe that theyhave is also maturing and expanding,
and it's. And. And. And it'srequiring things of them that. That
they didn't know that theyhad. The way they show up for Elle
because she can't use herpowers, like, the way that Lucas.

(21:11):
Lucas is showing. Yeah. I likethe funny part for me, when they
walk out the grocery store, hesays, keep making fun of my plan,
Max. Like, it's good. Is that.And it turns out his plan was freaking,
like, really brilliant.
Like, right when Lucas andWill are like, fireworks.
Yeah.
And Max is like, I want a bowl.

(21:33):
I need a bowl. Like, what areyou talking about?
Yeah. She's like, can you notlisten to directions, dummy?
Yeah. Yeah.
It's so good. It's so good.It. In some ways, the Max Lucas dynamic
kind of helps the fact thatDustin is MIA for them during this
period. Because usually itwould be Dustin and Lucas going back

(21:56):
and forth. But, yeah, Lucasreally shows up. And, like, Lucas
has such a big role that I hadtotally forgotten about. So I apologize
for my earlier rantings aboutLucas being essentially useless because
Lucas in the cabin, it's Lucasand Nancy that save Elle's life.

(22:18):
Yeah. Yeah.
Lucas picks up the hatchet atMax's direction and. And gets pretty
close to this monster andwhere I would have been with my slingshot,
like, like. And he's, like,hacking away at this thing so that
it lets go of L. While Nancyis shooting it with a shotgun. Lucas

(22:39):
has the idea about thefireworks. Like, Lucas is. He rises
to the occasion on this teamas soon as Elle is not able to. And
he's always been game to,like, fight back, but he. He hasn't
always had the best ideasabout how to do that. This. I was
really impressed with him.
Yeah. The sink. The Sinclairchildren show up big in this. This

(23:00):
episode.
I mean, like, this is a verystrong Sinclair run of episodes.
I agree. I totally agree. Ithink. I think Erica. Erica's like,
realization, with the help ofDustin as a friend, that she is,
in fact, a nerd. Is absolutelyone of the best at my shoot. That,
like, he's like. He's likemagical charms. Venatars.

(23:22):
I said this last.
These are all nerds.
My Little Ponies was. MyLittle Ponies was like. Was like
a whole cinematic universe.And she's like, I'm not a nerd. Like,
yes, you are, man.
Also hurts you skills also.Yeah. Just. I mean, but her skills
and finding the weapon.Finding the weapon to free. I mean,
because Steve won a fight.Hold on. We have to give it to him.

(23:45):
Steve wins his first fight inthis season. Like, it's his first
fight he ever won. But then hegets his ass whooped.
Like, again, again for thethird season in a row. Steve gets
his ass absolutely handed tohim. And the thing is, you gotta.
You have to acknowledge thatSteve is brave because he's had his

(24:08):
ass beat at least three timesthat we know of. And he continually
is like, no, put me in, coach.I want to be first.
I'm ready to go. He's.
He's had his ass beat byJonathan, Billy, and now some Russians.
Yeah. I mean, look, and thefunny thing is he's telling mostly
the truth when they're talkingto the Russians. But the Russians

(24:30):
don't believe him. Right?Like, they don't. They. So he's getting
his ass whooped for actuallydoing what they're asking him, but
they don't believe him. Right.So, I mean, it's a really good run.
I think. I think like, theheart of the. The whole story again,
is. Is becoming a little bitmore aware of who you are and dealing
with your shared trauma. Evenat the end, you know, when you get.

(24:55):
When you get Nancy andJonathan talking and they're like,
you know, a wise man talkingabout Murray said that we have a
trauma bond. And basicallyit's like, you know, but why not
add a little bit more trauma?Little do they know that that's coming.
But the point is that it'sfascinating to see how they're unpacking

(25:17):
this whole, like, traumaticexperiences, you know, self awareness
and growth and the law andwhat that means. It's Almost like
to me, this episode, thisepisode, this season is the puberty
episode is the puberty season.It's like in the sense that you are
coming into. They're no longerjust like little kids that we get.

(25:41):
They're like, okay, we arecoming into the awareness of who
we are as people. It's like arite of passage. Like, that's a better
way. It's a rite of passageepisode season of like what you would
see people go through whenthey trans make that transition from
childhood to like young, Youngadulthood or teenagerhood, you know.
Yeah. The, the complexity ofthe, all the relationships is on

(26:03):
display.
Yeah.
And that again, that's kind ofwhy there's a little bit of discordance
in the season. Because whilethe, the little kids as we, the,
the party, as we think of themare growing into more complex emotions,
what we're seeing from Hopperand Joyce and Nancy and Jonathan

(26:27):
is they're being a littleimmature. Not as self aware and then.
But we, we do get fromStephen, Robin possibly the best
scene of this whole series. Ilove this scene, like possibly the
best writing that they've doneon this series, which is crazy because

(26:48):
there's no magic involved. Butwe get this beautiful moment between
Steve and Robin that's alsolayered and complex. Right. Like
Steve comes into thatconversation as immature Steve and
then he exits thatconversation as a new person.
Yeah.
And it's one of the reasonsthat I love that scene so much. I've

(27:11):
watched it. That's actuallythe scene I probably watched the
most in Stranger Things.Although the first, the first scene
where Will gets kidnapped.Well, Will disappears. I've watched
a bunch of times because I've.But that's like. I'm trying to unpack
what's happening in thatscene. Whereas with the, the, the
bathroom scene, it's just abeautiful. Like, you see what. It's

(27:35):
very plain what's happening inthat scene and you just love it right
away because Robin and Steve'srelationship goes from co workers
to trauma bonded friends. Likeeverybody in this story, it becomes
a trauma bonded friend. ThenSteve gets friend zoned. Right. That's

(27:59):
how it could have been writtenthat Steve. But it doesn't get written
that way. It gets written aslike Steve shows up for Robin in
a way that I don't think Robinwould have exposed herself had she
not been under the truthserum. That's like the. So like almost
that makes the Russian plotworthy almost. Because Robin gets
to have this moment. Becauseyou and I know that in the 80s coming

(28:24):
out was Extremely dangerous.
Dangerous. Yeah.
I mean, it's still dangeroustoday, but it was even more. More
dangerous. This was beforethere were any, like, mainstream
depictions of queer people ontelevision. Would Robin have done
this if she didn't have thetruth serum? I don't think so. I

(28:44):
think being high as a kite ispart of the reason she does it.
Yeah. And I think this. Imean, it's set up beautifully. When
they're inside, when they'recaptured down in the bunker, and
she tells him the whole storyabout the classroom and him sitting
in front of her. And you as anaudience, you just assume, oh, she
had a crush on Steve. You knowwhat I mean? Like, you don't get
the other layer of the. Of anyof the complexity until the bathroom

(29:08):
scene. And just to see him,you know, I don't know that season
one, Steve responds the sameway. Right. Like, so it was all this.
All these levels of like. Of,like, growth that we see happen throughout
the seasons, but also himprocessing in real time. And it's,
like you said, showing up forRobin in. In the sense of, like,

(29:30):
oh, yeah, okay, like, thenyou're still my homie. Like, we're
still going through all ofthis. And let's, like, it was. It
was great.
He makes a joke to put her atease. Right away. He's like, Tammy
Thompson.
Yeah, exactly. She sounds likea Muppet. She sings like a Muppet.
Oh, my God, it was great. It'sone of my favorite.
It's so good. It's so good.Like, I also had a friend who came

(29:54):
out to me when I was in highschool, and, like, we continue to
be friends. It was, you know,like, it wasn't a. It wasn't even
that awkward of a conversationbecause in some ways, I. I knew already,
but I wish I would have made ajoke like this to kind of bring.

(30:14):
You know, they must have beenso anxious to have that conversation
with me, not knowing how Iwould react. I wish I could have
put them at ease in this wayinstead of being just like, yeah,
okay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I wish. I wish I had had theinstinct to not make light of it,
but to find a way throughhumor to bring the stakes down a

(30:40):
little bit so that they knewthat, like, it didn't change any.
Like, for. For Steve, so manythings are changing.
Yeah.
In his mind, in that, like,there's an oh, oh. There's like,
a long pause. And yet he does.He actually moves closer to Robin.
Which is one of my favoritethings about it, is instead of, like,

(31:00):
pulling Away, he actuallyinches like a little bit closer and
then he makes a joke and it'sjust, I, if you weren't already team
Steve Harrington.
Yeah, agreed. And I, and I.
How could you. This is why thefandom will riot if something happens
to Steve in season five.
Of course, I mean, like, he'sgrown so much since we first met

(31:23):
Steve. And, and this is again,that self awareness that we've talked
about throughout coverage ofthe show that he, that he has in
the sense that he, he's alsogrowing not just self awareness,
but like awareness of thosearound him and how his actions may
impact them and in real timeto be able to, you know, processing
all of that. But also I thinkwhy it resonates so much is because

(31:46):
it's one of the moments wherewe see Steve not make it about him
in an actual interpersonalrelationship. This was not about,
oh, I just tried to ask youout. And oh, I feel crazy. He could,
that could have been a lot oflike, oh, I feel so bad, I should
have this and that. And I, I,I, I. He made the whole, the action
after that point, after hesays, I'm processed. I'm just thinking

(32:08):
like, right. He makes thewhole interaction about Robin after
that, you know, And I thinkthat's what's so beautiful about
it, you know?
Yeah, he. This is atremendously written scene. I have
to give it to them. Seasonthree, while a lot of people criticize
it, didn't really advance thelike, magical elements of the story
very much. That's okay. That'salmost okay because we get some of

(32:31):
the most emotional scenes. Weget Mike and Will in the earlier
episodes. I think that'sepisode, episode two or three. We
get this one, we get the.What's essentially played as the
epilogue at the end. Like, weget real, real high stakes conversations
between these characters. Andbecause we love them, they're also

(32:54):
high stakes convers for us.
Yeah, 100%. 100%. And one of the.
And then we, we also get theBilly L. Entering Billy's story and
coming out kind of unchanged.I mean, kind of changed from it.
Yeah.
And that is foreshadowing forseason four, of course, but also

(33:17):
something new that the, thestory hadn't really done before,
which was take us into themind of our villain.
So let me ask you a questionabout this, because there's a very
powerful scene that changeswhat Billy's about to do. He's sacrificing
Elle at that moment, which youcan clearly see that this was part

(33:39):
of their plan, was to get Elleoff the board, not only by doing,
but also consuming her powers.And. And then through Elle, having
traveled to his core pain, hiscore memory, she speaks to the beauty
and beauty in the memoriesthat she saw. And it penetrates whatever
trance. So is she. Is it justher words, or has she learned how

(34:04):
to get within the mind ofanother person in that kind of way?
Through her sister, throughthis traveling through the void,
through the touching of Billy?Is this a new power she's developing,
or is this just like. I'musing my words right now, and it's
penetrating you because it'shitting your memory. I couldn't make.

(34:24):
I want to go. I land on thesecond. Not that it's a new kind
of power, but I don't want tototally dismiss the possibility of
the first yet.
Oh, that's a really goodquestion. I had just assumed that
it was the second, which wasthat enough of Billy is in there.

(34:45):
And the other thing, too, isthat Billy seems unaware in that
moment that. That Elle hasbeen in his mind.
Right.
Which is fascinating becausewhat. After she did that, Billy hijacked
the. She thought that she wasno longer in his mind, but she was

(35:05):
still in his mind. He. He kindof hijacked the void, right?
Yeah.
So that was the mind flayer.When. When she says those things
to Billy, Billy seems a littlebit confused about, like, how she
knows these things about him.I think we're supposed to take that
there was just enough of Billyin there that. Those words, the reminder

(35:28):
of his humanity. And I thinkit's played well with Max yelling
in the background that thatjust brings him to the present moment,
and he realizes this isactually not who I want to be. And
I think a mistake that themind flayer made with Billy was not
taking him over totally andcompletely. The mind flayer in facts,

(35:51):
Billy, but doesn't fully. Hestill has some agency and he he weaponizes
that when. When it pleaseshim. You see that in the sauna scene,
right? I think the mind flayermade a mistake that would have made
more sense to take him overcompletely the way it takes over

(36:11):
the flayed it. There's like a.A switch, right? We see it in the
fair scene where the mindflayer is like, all right, kiddos,
we gotta go get l. And summonsall of these people who are flayed,
and they all go to the milland just become goop. I think that
probably would have beensmarter than leaving some piece of

(36:32):
Billy still in there and somepiece of Heather, you know?
Yeah.
Like.
Yeah, I think. I think that's.I totally agree with you that that's
a big mistake of the MindFlayer. But I think another mistake
was this is where I'm goingwith it to this place. And I've thought
about this a lot because I waswatching this scene today is. It's
not lost on me that thatconversation happens after the Mind

(36:56):
Flayer has bit her andinfiltrated underneath her skin.
So the Mind Flayer has thisability and so in trying to remove
her powers to like move himand blase, blah, blah, does l also
gain some of his abilities?More than we know.

(37:16):
Oh, I think only time will tell.
Right? Like, this is what I'm.This is. So this is where my brain
is going is. I'm like, wait,hold on. How does she do that? Really?
Because he was totally hellbent on destroying her before that.
And, and, and I think thatthey've done this a lot in this show
where you can perceivesomething being one way, where we
take away the, the, the, thethat level of understanding of like.

(37:39):
Yeah, well, obviously she justtalked to Billy and Billy just enough
of him was in there and hewent and he'd sacrificed himself.
But then they go back and theyremix that later. You're like, holy.
So I'm leaving out on theboard for myself until otherwise,
you know what I mean?
Like, so I don't think it's aleap at all. It's no more of a leap
for you to make thatassumption than all of the many tinfoil

(38:04):
hat theories I have aboutHolly Wheeler. Right. There's actually
pretty strong evidence thatthe show builds on Elle's powers
as. As we go. And so, yeah, Icould tell. I wonder. That's like
a really good point becausethat slug was in her. She did get
it out, but. So the slug thatwas in Will also came out.

(38:28):
Came out and yet he still has.
He still ended up beingpossessed. So I think that's a really
good point.
Yeah. So. So let's talk aboutHolly. Like, so you. Like, there's
evidence of Holly in this runof episodes. The first thing that
comes to mind is her seeingthe trees moving while the fireworks
are going off and her callingher parents attention to it, to which

(38:50):
they hand wave. She's beenvery present throughout more than
in Rewatch. You see thatthere's things that, that you notice
when Holly shows up. Somethingpivotal is about to happen. What
do you think? What do you.What do you want to say about Holly
Wheeler?
I don't know for sure. All I'msaying is we discovered today from

(39:11):
friend of the pod Dania, whowas just doing her regular shopping,
that there is a Holly WheelerFunko Pop.
Okay, okay.
This is suspicious. Yeah, suspicious.
We need your tinfoil hat now.
This is suspicious.Suspicious. So for them to roll out

(39:35):
a Holly Wheeler now. Okay, solet me just say for the record, I
am extremely familiar with themany Funko Pops that were available
up to last year. I literallyhad a Stranger Things advent Funko
calendar. Like, I've seen manyof the variations of the Funkos available.

(39:55):
There was not a Holly Wheelerone before that. That seems suspicious.
There were mult.
There's multiple mind flayers,by the way, but never a Holly.
There's also a detail that youshare that. That. That our friend
in a pod Dania shared with youthat you share with me that it's
missing a shoe.

(40:16):
Missing a shoe. Why is Hollymissing a shoe?
No clue. We need to know.
Where's her other shoe?
Where is the other shoe? Whyis Holly Wheeler's Funko pop missing
a shoe? Duffers, let us know.Anyone, Anyone who has a theory,
let us know.
Yeah, I would love to hearother people's theories. I think
that like the most commontheory is like, something big is
going to happen to Holly inthis season. But like, why? Why Holly?

(40:41):
If all the why not. Again, I'mgoing to continue to say this. Why
not? Erica? Yeah, like why ofall of the. The many side characters,
why specifically Holly? Whyhave. Why have Holly be the. The
only person at the fair tonotice a mind flayer in an enormous

(41:03):
monster? By the way, like, asit was forming, I was like, now how
you gonna. How are you gonnahide this big ass monster is just
gonna walk through Hawkins?
Yeah, it's crazy. We've gonefrom the demagorgo that she.
She will tries to communicatewith Holly in season one from the
Upside down.
Yeah. Yeah.

(41:25):
So what's going on, Holly?What's good?
I want to see that. That.Remember that's the scene that we
talked about that kind of wasa toss back to like Poltergeist and
all of that. Right? Why. Whatis. What's the deal with that? Like,
why do you think that. That.Why. Why do you think she's pivotal?
I don't know. And. And theactress who plays Holly has been.

(41:48):
This will be the third versionof Holly we're getting in this show.
So they have recasted Holly asecond time, in my opinion, so that
she can have a larger role toplay. So Maybe this season we don't
get a new character. Right.There's no more Eddie, Max, or Robin.

(42:08):
Maybe Holly just becomes moreimportant to the plot. They've been.
There's been little hints thatwe should pay more attention to Holly
the whole time, but it alsofeels like it's entirely possible
that because they wrote theseother scenes and they're going to
give them significance now sothat they're. It's actually the other

(42:30):
way around. They were like,oh, we did this scene where Holly
and Will were communicating inseason one. And then Joyce interrupts
it. Maybe we can build onthat. I'm not sure what the. The
connection will be. We'll haveto see. There is some speculation
that Karen is actually BobNewey newbies. Sister Patty Newby.

(43:01):
Karen is Patty Newby. Thatwould make it make more sense. That
right there would make it more.
I don't. I don't think. It's,like, I'm almost 100 certain that
that's not true, but I haveseen fans speculating that Karen
Wheeler is Patty Newby, and I.I cannot debunk it without a spoiler.

(43:25):
So I'm not gonna do it.
But a spoiler from the play.
Yeah.
Okay. Because we just say we're.
I'm not gonna do it. I'm notgonna do it. But I. Yeah, it's. I'm
almost a hundred percent surethat that's not possible. But I'm
just saying that you're notthe only one looking for people's
origin stories.

(43:46):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, itjust seems to make sense. I mean,
I don't know. One story wedon't need any help figuring out
is that everybody needs aMurray in their life. Everyone. Like,
the reason why I say that is,you know, there's many times where
people just have, like,unrequited love tension between two

(44:11):
people where you could cut itwith a knife, but nobody says anything.
Murray is 2 for 2. He's on it.He's on a. He's on a 20 run. He's,
like, two games away from asweep. He literally got Nancy and
Jonathan on the right track.And then he's like, come on, Hopper
and Joyce, let's go. Like,what do you guys do? Can you guys

(44:33):
either pull over on the sideof the road and handle your business
and we'll just wait over here?Which is a wild thing to say in the
middle of everything elsethey're dealing with, or you guys
just hush? Okay, I need you totake it down a couple of notches.
No more Bickering. It was cuteand all, but I need you to calm it
down. Just pull it back. Andthen even Alexi is laughing.
It's the whole Murray, Joyce,Alexi, all of that is so funny.

(45:00):
It's so good.
Like, I don't like the Russianplot, but I have to objectively acknowledge
that it's funny. It gives usso many laughs. Like. Like when.
When Hopper calls for help andhe gets the Philadelphia Library.
And then Joyce. First of all,Murray is completely crashing out.
He's like, don't tell them myphone number. Like, what are we doing?

(45:24):
What is going on? I have tomove now.
You compromise me. Oh, my God.
But then when Joyce calls backand she is like, I don't think that
he has demonstrated theurgency in which we need support
here. Is it.
The whole.
That whole bit is hilarious.
And then he says. And then hetries to. He was like. She's like,

(45:45):
don't you dare patronize me.Like, listen, here's what you're
gonna do. You're gonna get offyour ass. You're gonna go down the
hall. You're gonna let himknow right now. Oh, my God, it's
so good.
Oh, it's so funny. Like, allof that stuff is played for laughs,
and they. They pay off prettywell because I was cracking up that

(46:05):
whole scene.
Yeah, no, it's great. It'ssuper great. And, yeah, I think.
I think, like, you know, insome of those laughs, like, make
it where the heavy stuff, whenit hits it. It hits more. It's more.
It's more impactful. Like, youknow, when Alexi dies, it's. It's
like, damn, you really. Youreally cared about. You start to

(46:25):
care about him. And then,like, when. When Hopper dies and
the two of them and Murraycomes and, like, oh, we got to get
out of here. I think, like,that's, like. You know, you see,
like, there's a bond betweenMurray and. And. And Joyce as well
as. As they try to escape fromthe. The. The Russian base. So, yeah,

(46:46):
no, there's some good stuff. Ireally. I really do. I really do
enjoy. Enjoy the season. Whatdo you think of the relationship
in totality, from keep thedoor 3 inches open all the way to
the way that it ends with themsaying goodbye and making holiday
plans with Mike and Elle.Like, what do you think of this arc?

(47:09):
I think this is the beginningof the. The Will and Mike shippers.
I just. I have so many issueswith the mic not being able to tell
Elle to his. Her face that heloves her. It's Just like, such a.
A weird plot line that I thinkis, like, done for a reason. Like,

(47:34):
I'm not saying that this issloppily done. I'm just saying that
I think it's a little. Alittle bit, like, creates this character
a mic that I don'tparticularly like. So this is connected
to another piece which isprotecting Elle and Elle's agency.
And then there's this romanticelement. And this is. I think this

(47:57):
is a normal dynamic,especially in a first relationship
where there's a gendered pieceof it where, like, Mike is protecting
El to. Almost to a fault like,that Max and Nancy both call him
on it. And when Max and Nancyare calling him on it because Nancy's
totally perplexed. She's like,I don't understand why you're acting

(48:20):
this way. Because Elle knowsher powers better than anybody else.
Right? Yeah.
And that's when Mike blurtsout the. But I. I can't lose her
again because I love her. Butthen there's this, like, tension
about him saying it to herthat then plays out more in season
four where Elle is like, dude,all of your letters say from Mike,

(48:45):
not love Mike from Mike. Like,what. What is the. What is the deal
here? And this is where allthe people who are like, does he
have a thing for Will?Instead, this is. This gives them
evidence and that maybethey're right. I don't know what's
in store for this story. Ijust don't feel like because of how.

(49:07):
How Mike and Lucas are playedas very traditional boys, I just
don't see that that's whatthey're writing. What it feels like
to me that they're writing isthese two boys who are not con. Are
not comfortable emoting.They're more. They're more like Steve

(49:29):
than Jonathan. Jonathan, Ithink, would tell Nancy once he felt
safe. Yeah, I have feelingsfor you. He'd be nervous about it.
But he. Once it's. Once it'sout in the open, he has no issue
of it. I think Mike is moreplayed as like. And Lucas is. Are
more played as, like, typicalguys. Guys right there. He just doesn't

(49:50):
have the vocabulary. It makeshim nervous. It's hard for him to
say. That said, maybe that'show just my interpretation and. And
the truth is that they arebuilding up this Mike and Will relationship.
I don't. I can't say. But I dothink that dragging out the. The
L word, you know, conversationfor over multiple seasons is confusing.

(50:14):
Yeah, I know. I just don'tfeel like, kids that are, like, playing
D and D and, like, you know,into all these different fantasy
tropes and things thatthey're, like, all the things that
they've expressed that they'reinto science. He would have. He would
lack the vocabulary. You knowwhat I mean? Like. Or lack the ability

(50:35):
to, like, express hisfeelings. I. I just kind of feel
they. It wouldn't quite playout this way. So there may be something
else that they're trying totell us with this too. So I. I get
why people are a littleconfused and. And. Or are thinking,
okay, there's another reasonfor this, and there's some. There's
a theory behind it. I stillthink we're heading. I still think

(50:56):
we don't. I mean, depends onwhat we think is, like, a happy ending
we're not heading to, like, inmy opinion, Mike and Elle get together
and they all live happily everafter. That's not where we're heading.
You know what I mean? Like, Idon't. I don't see that as, like,
where.
We'Re heading, so I absolutelydon't. I think they've. They've put
enough. I think they'vewritten enough into actually season

(51:22):
four to show us that thatrelationship has maybe run its course.
But that said, Mike is soprotective of El this. This season,
and somebody had to be. Youknow, he says that Max is very careless
with El's powers, but he kindof doesn't talk specifically about

(51:48):
how, so. He talks about thefact that Max had El spy on him and
Lucas. Whatever. Right. Butthat's not the carelessness. The
carelessness actually is thatElle becomes depleted whenever she
uses her powers. And that'swhat Mike is actually talking about.

(52:10):
So the example he gives is notgreat. But I think of, like, when
Elle says to Hopper at theend, I need to. I need to recharge.
Basically, I'm weak, but I. Iwill recharge, I think, is how she
puts it. Yeah, that's whatMike was talking about. Like, she.

(52:30):
She can do too much, and shedoes so much in this span. And it's
like, there's points where I'mlike, if they had just let her preserve
her power, then maybe wewouldn't be in this situation where
she essentially has no power.
Yeah. I mean, what's going onwith that? Do you think it's that
the Mind Flayer got under herskin and then, like, somehow they

(52:51):
got rid of the flower becauseof access to her blood? Or do you
think, like, there'ssomething. I. I know we know from
season four a little bit more.But, like, what. What. What was your
take at this point? And thenwhat do you think?
My take at this point was thatshe was just totally depleted from.
From the ordeal in thesupermarket. I mean, at the cabin.

(53:12):
Then she does the thing withthe car. I just thought at the time,
I just thought she was tiredfrom what happens later. I think
we know that there's anemotional block happening here, but
also what Billy says to herbefore they come after them in the
cabin is that we did this. Webuilt this to come after you. So

(53:36):
it almost makes you think thattheir intention is to just deplete
her until she can't fightback. And we, you know, we find out
later why the Mind Flayermight have a grudge against Al.
Yeah.
If Vecna is the Mind Flayer.Right, right. Then we find out exactly
why he's pissed. Because she'san actual threat to him.

(53:56):
Right.
She's the one who banishedhim. But I think I thought it this.
When I had first watched it, Ihad assumed Elle was just tired.
I didn't actually know shewasn't gonna have powers in season
four.
Four. Right, right.
I thought she would just be,like, exhausted, recharging. Obviously,
losing Hopper was going to bea big thing, but I didn't. I didn't

(54:19):
expect that in season four,she would be. You know, we'd have
that horrible scene with the.The bully whose name I forget, where
Al just doesn't have any power.
Yeah. Which. It didn't stopher. Jeez. She.
She had other powers. Violence.

(54:41):
Oh, man. Look. So, I mean, Ithink, like, it's been interesting
to see how all these thingsare evolving. I think, you know,
one of the things we loveabout this show is the cross between
the supernatural and thescientific. And it shows up really

(55:01):
interestingly in how the MindFlayer keeps evolving or this. This
keeps evolving. Like, youknow, season one, we got a demogorgon
terrorizing the town. Seasontwo, will becomes, like, basically
a vector for the Mind Flayer.Now, season three, Mind Flayer uses

(55:21):
similar tricks, but he'sscaling. You know, he's like, learning.
Learning how to scale hisbusiness. So he's been able to, like,
infect multiple people in thetown and build, like, something.
And as you said, it's veryfascinating how we're seeing this
evolve and then we also learnsomething. We learn that, as we just
spoke about, that in totality,all of this is being built over time

(55:46):
to come for Elle. Like, that'swhat the building of this is. What
are some of the themes thatreally stick out to you as we. As
we start to close out?
Wait. There was one more thingI wanted to talk about before we
close out, because I'm notsure. I can't remember now if this
is an issue in season four.

(56:08):
Okay.
This is going to be very shallow.
I already know where this is going.
Before we discuss themes, wehave to discuss why the makeup artist
keeps doing Winona Ryderdirty. What is going on with Joyce's
makeup in this season?Actually, in all the seasons, why

(56:29):
does Joyce have to look like this?
I mean, it's not affecting.Hop. Hop is all in. He's all in about.
He's asked her out multipletimes. Charlie wanted to meet her
at dinner. She stood him up.The man has hit the bottle over it.
Because Joyce is anintelligent and beautiful woman.
That is why I would like themto. To treat her face with some respect.

(56:51):
This woman's face is contouredto the point of distortion. She's
wearing this blush that'stotally inappropriate for her skin
tone. And this is not 90s. Imean, 80s makeup. Karen Wheeler,
Nancy, and Robin have veryappropriate 80s makeup on.
Okay. Okay.
So I just had to say thatbecause I cannot continue without

(57:14):
addressing the elephant in theroom, which is that I find Joyce's
makeup very distracting. I'mhoping that when I begin my rewatch
of season four that it willnot be an issue. But I just need
to say it, because in seasonthree in particular, she's wearing
this berry colored blush. It'snot. Sweetie, that's not for you.
This is important. I like.

(57:35):
This is not for you.
It suspect did not suspend thedisbelief. You're like, no, no, I
don't believe this. She wouldnot wear this.
Like the Sinclair's lacksparenting. It takes me completely
out of the story. Okay, The.The Sinclair's. Being a black family
living in a predominantlywhite area and letting their children
just be out to all hours takesme out of the story, as does seeing

(58:00):
contour on Joyce's face in the1980s. That was not like a common
way to do makeup in the 1980s.Kim Kardashian had not shown everyone
underpainting yet. So I'm just.
This is proof again of theparallel nature of Erica Sinclair
and Andrea. All right, let metell you why. Because Dustin goes

(58:24):
off about this. He's like,wait, so you believe Elle, the mind
flayer, all this, but youdon't believe that your brother was
there? Lucas. He was like, no,exactly. That's exactly what I'm
saying Andrew's like seeingall this other supernatural and she's
like, no, the blush is in. Is.She's. No, she would never wear that.

(58:44):
Absolutely would never wearthat. I was. I was there in the 90s.
Okay. So I remember.
That's great.
Looking through magazines.Back then, women did not wear pale.
Women did not wear berrycolored blush. Anyway, I'm done.
I'm done ranting about this.Thank you. And thank you to all of
our listeners, except for theones who have now skipped 30 seconds

(59:08):
ahead multiple times.
No, on the real old school listeners.
Will know I get about thisabout certain things with the Witcher.
It was.
It was a traveling like, thetravel time was great. The travel
time through the continentwas. Is one of my all time faves.
Oh, my gosh. If you want agood time, go and listen to the Witcher

(59:28):
episodes and hear Andrea crashout about how fast everybody gets
to and from different places.
Zooming around the continent.Just zoom just from one place to
the next in. In a half a day,two hours. It's insane. Anyone who's
played the Witcher gameabsolutely knows that it takes you

(59:49):
forever to get from city tocity. Okay. I did not spend hours
on the back of roach for themto disrespect the length of this
is a huge continent. Anyway,we're digressing. We're digressing.
It's so good. I love this. Andyou know what? Who knows? Maybe there
are listeners that would likemore evaluation of makeup or get

(01:00:14):
ready with me, like contentabout like different, different characters
that we're watching. Please.We are here to. We are here to accommodate.
I love it. I absolutely love it.
That would be really funny ifMillie, Bobby Brown, I believe, has
a cosmetics company. That'sreally, really funny. If she's like,
get ready with me while Ifight Vecna, it would be really good.

(01:00:41):
I will watch it. I wouldtotally watch that. She always looks
great. I would be like, Iwould love to see your makeup routine,
Millie. Let's go.
Oh, my gosh. This is. That'samazing. That is hilarious. Get ready
with me while I fight back,though. So. All right, themes, I
guess the major theme for meis friendship and the friendships

(01:01:08):
that grow and evolve overtime. The ways that new friendships
come into the fray. I lovethat. I love even this, you know,
this new budding friendshipthat we just spoke, that we spoke
about with Steve and Robin.Robin gets Steve a job. Steve is
about to not get a job. He'sabout to be out on his ass. It wasn't

(01:01:29):
gonna happen. But she gets hima job at the new place now that the
mall's burned down. You know,like these new kind of like friendships,
long standing friendships thatare evolving and changing. The new
friendship between, let's behonest, Max and Elle, like, really
bonded during this season. Itbecame really, really close. And,
you know, like, it's. It's notanybody else in the party that's

(01:01:50):
comforting Max. When Billydies, it is l holding her and telling
her it's gonna be okay. Andit's so. I just really love this,
you know, friendship, trust.The old pairs, the new pairs, new
people that we come to careabout that are joining the party.
Absolutely amazing stuff. Whatdo you. What do you.

(01:02:11):
Yeah, that. I totally agree.The. The way that we get two friendships
that are so significant inthis season alone, we get the evolution
of the Max and Ellerelationship, which has not always
been gone smoothly. You know,it's. Elle was very much hating being

(01:02:35):
a hater, being a full onhater. And then we also get the Robin
and Steve relationship, whichis, again, one of the best. And the.
And we. The beauty of Steveand Robin is we continue to retain
the Steve and Dustin. And thisis something that I just kind of
thought about, but it's sotrue. It's like Steve is such a good

(01:02:59):
representation of that People.Certain people can have certain impacts
on you at certain times if youmeet them at the right time. Like
you said, Steve in season onereacts totally different to the relationship
that him and Robin eventuallydevelop after she confides in him

(01:03:20):
and shows her. Her vulnerable,true self to him. In order for that
Steve to exist, Nancy has todump him. But Nancy has to be in
his life to begin with. SoNancy, he has to see Nancy's love
and acceptance for Barb andwillingness to fight for her. And

(01:03:40):
then Nancy has to let him goessentially over that, right. Call
him out on his own, as sheputs it. He has to have that moment
which comes earlier where heapologizes to Jonathan even though
Jonathan beat his ass. He hasto become friends, not. Not just

(01:04:08):
the babysitter, but friendswith Dustin. Him and Dustin are friends.
There's real love there. Hedrops Dustin off at the, The. The.
The winter dance that theyhad, the snowball. So it's a reminder
that, like, we. As theserelationships all come together,

(01:04:28):
they get tested, they get, youknow, forged under duress. It's a
reminder that all thesedifferent players in our lives play
a different role. And this isactually one of the things that I
think is holding Will back aLittle bit is that he is still in
that core group and he is notmaking these other connections, but

(01:04:48):
they're all growing based ontheir relationships with these new
people and letting them in.And so I want to see that growth
in Will. I want him to have. Iwant him to treat 11 like in season
four. I want him to treat 11like that's his sister. But we don't
quite get there yet. So. And Ithink that's intentional. I think

(01:05:09):
that's how Will is written fora reason. But yes, I absolutely think
that the friendships, therelationships are all tested this
season in a way that is.Prepares them for season four. Cause
season four is wild.
Wild. Yeah.
And from the jump, like seasonfour, I remember episode one. I was

(01:05:29):
like, oh, it's like that.There's no filler episode.
Oh my gosh. There'll be lotsof humming, running up that hill.
Deal with God. It'll. It'll behappening for sure. It's one of my.
One of the favorites. So whatdo you. I know we know what happens
in season four, but what areyour predictions for the overall

(01:05:51):
series, if you have any, basedoff of this season?
I think that it's not amistake that they're reminding us
that Will still has thatconnection to the mind Flayer.
Yeah, I agree.
I'm kind of a broken record onthis. Something big is going to happen.
Be revealed about Will. So I'mcurious to see how that interacts

(01:06:15):
with the Holly conspiraciesthat we've been talking about. Elle
does eventually get her powersback. Right. But how she uses them
is really important from nowon. And Will we. I guess I'm worried

(01:06:38):
that Elle is going to getcaught up in invading someone's mind
again. I think the thing thatMike diagnosed about L. That Max
and Nancy don't think about isthat she is willing to die.
Yeah.
For these other people. Andshe will. She will deplete herself.
And so if I'm looking at,like, what I could take from season

(01:06:59):
three and for forgettingeverything I know about season four,
or at least putting it asidefor a moment, I wonder the foreshadowing
of Elle pressing herself toohard, pushing too hard, and also
being hunted. Elle, to thispoint has always been kind of a secret

(01:07:19):
weapon. She's. She's alwaysthere for the surprise. But now that
we know that Vecna is verymuch hunting her and that is able
to do so with sort of the samepsychic powers that she has. That's
scary. That. That. That makesElla target now.

(01:07:41):
Yeah.
And. And it's not just thatshe's a weapon that can be deployed,
but I also think that Will canalso be a weapon or a target. So
I, I, I think they remind usthat Will is sort of touched by the
Mind Flayer, that there's someremnants there for a reason. I don't
think that, that, thatconnection is unimportant.

(01:08:03):
Yeah, I agree with you. Ithink, like, my, my, like just adding
on top of what you're saying,I think the other thing that I kind
of predict is, well, what welearned. And then I'll go to. My
prediction is that all of thisis being built because of Vecna,

(01:08:25):
who we find out who Vecna isin the next season. His want to hunt
and bring down El based onwhat she did to even create the circumstances
of, like, banishing him tothis realm. Right. The thing that's
fascinating to me is from thevery beginning we talked about what

(01:08:48):
was happening inside of thebuyer's home before Elle saw Will,
before she even knew.Basically saw Will, and then tells
them that she saw Will. And myfeeling about that and overall is,

(01:09:08):
what if that was the plan fromthe beginning? What if Vecna knew
he wasn't strong enough to beable to fight her at the very beginning?
So abducting Will was the bestway to kind of do this thing that
has systematically beenhappening of getting stronger and
stronger and stronger andstronger. Every time they closed

(01:09:28):
the hole, he had to know,well, she'll probably close the hole
or she'll probably do thisthing right. I know I'm not going
to win each one of thesetimes. But every time, you know,
they say, you know, failureisn't failure. It's an opportunity
for learning. Like you learnsomething new. So this whole time
has been about learning theirvulnerabilities, learning what they
do. And so my prediction isthat those lessons that the Mind

(01:09:53):
Flayer at this point and whatwe know becomes Vecna get are going
to be implemented to startbringing down members of the party.
I think, in my opinion.
Yeah. If they're all targetsbecause Elle cares about them.
Yeah.
And he can lure her into a trap.

(01:10:15):
Yeah.
Using them. And Elleacknowledges the whole Billy thing
is a trap. She knows that, butshe still does it. Which again, is
what Mike was diagnosing abouther that the others didn't see. But
I totally agree with you thatsomething is awry here that we don't

(01:10:36):
fully see. And I've alsowondered, with all the clock image
imagery, we're about to beassaulted with in season four, is
there some time manipulationgoing on? Is there some. Is Vecna

(01:10:58):
learning in real time, or isVecna going manipulating time after
seeing how things have playedout? Are we in a situation where
there's multiple versions ofthis playing out? And would that
be. I'd also be curious howaudiences react to that. Again, we've

(01:11:18):
had the Flea and the acrobat.We've had all of this stuff that
told us there's multipledimensions in this story. Would the
audience be cool if there aremultiple timelines playing out? And
so I want to see how. Andmaybe that's why the run times of
these episodes are long.Because, you know, when you get a

(01:11:39):
time travel situation, you gotto spend more time. You got to spend
a lot of time explaining it.And also, we didn't know this, but
Back to the Future is used inthis episode. Is it just because
it came out in the summer of1985, or was it.
I'm so glad you said that,because that was something that blew

(01:12:01):
my mind. Like, as they were.They were blowing my mind as they
were on their little juiced uprants when they're drinking water
and they're talking about it.And Robin says something in that.
That. That thing that showsher acuity. But also I thought, could
this be an Easter egg? Later?Is that. He says, well, why is. If
it's about them going, wasthat guy trying to sleep with his

(01:12:24):
mom? And she's all like, well,yeah, but that's. He's like, she's
trying to hook up with himbecause he's back in the past. And
he goes, well, then if he's inthe past, why is it called Back to
the Future? And she says,because in the past, his present
is the future. And I said, oh,shit. Like, could that be an Easter

(01:12:44):
egg? And I was like, oh. So,like. So I was like, oh. And I never
heard anybody really say thatin about the movie. But then I thought
about it in the context ofwhat we're talking about in the time
loop. So I'm so glad you saidthat, because it jogged my memory
about wanting to bring that up.
Is that it does feel kind ofon the nose. And then to have a clock.

(01:13:06):
Right.
Be one of the most importantthings. And then to have an actual
timeline. Right. It's not justa clock.
Yeah.
They figure out how long fromin season four, they figure out how
long from when the nightmaresbegin till death. Right. So there's
an actual countdown. So I are.Have they been foreshadowing Some

(01:13:29):
time stuff. And, like, ifthere's time stuff, how much will
L play a role in it? Is Elleequipped for that?
Yeah. That's very fair.
Is L gonna be. I mean it tome, my perfect story. And this is
totally. There's. I have noevidence where I want everyone to
survive, so I'm. I'm buildingmyself the happiest ending possible.

(01:13:53):
Like, I want to be. The onlything I'm heartbroken about at the
end of this season is thatEllen, Mike broke up for good. Like,
that's how I feel. And thatNancy and Jonathan are no longer
together. That's how I feel. Feel.
Yeah.
I just. I would love to havethis. I love these kids so much that
I would hate to have anythingactually bad happen to them. So I'm

(01:14:14):
only willing to let my braingo to. Nancy and Jonathan are toast.
Ellen, Mike are toast.
Yeah.
Yeah, they're done.
Yeah, that's fine. I coulddeal with that.
I'll. I'll lick my wounds overthat and move on.
Yeah.
But I'm actually quiteconcerned that that will lose a bunch,

(01:14:35):
several characters, andthere'll be big ones. And to me,
when I try to save myself fromthat heartbreak, I'm thinking Elle
is gonna be under duressbecause she's their only real weapon.
And then we're gonna discoverthat Will has abilities that have.
Haven't been unlocked yet. Andthen Will's gonna save the day so

(01:14:55):
everybody gets to live.
I like that. I. I also think Iwant everybody to live, too. I also
think. I just. I was sittinghere thinking as we were talking
about all this and going backto our Holly stuff, is if the mission
is to get. If the mission isto get at L by pulling in Holly,

(01:15:20):
which is much speculation thatshe's the one who's going to go missing
like Will did next in seasonfive, then it puts Mike at risk because
he's gonna go after Holly,which. Which would expose L, because
L's not going to want to letanything happen to Mike. So the whole
point of pulling Holly mayhave nothing to do with any sort
of previous other reason orhurt, whatever. It could simply be

(01:15:43):
a strategic move to draw inMike further to then make it where
L exposes that thing thatyou're talking about, about her willingness
to die to save the day.
Totally.
We shall find out.
It's very possible. But I alsothink there's a million other characters
you could pick off.

(01:16:03):
Yeah.
Like, again, why not Erica?Erica. Erica's missed most of the
Supernatural story. She's.She's Only mostly been a part of,
like, the spy story.
So.
Yeah, why not Erica? Why not?Why not a. Like a weaker member of

(01:16:27):
the. And when I say weak, Ijust mean, like, doesn't have powers.
Doesn't. Isn't the most. Like.What's the word? Why not Mike?
Why not Mike?
Why not Mike? Like, let's bereal here. Mike's role in this story
is to be the protector in loveof will and. And I mean love platonically

(01:16:52):
or romantically, however youwant to apply it. For Will and Elle,
he doesn't often contributethat much to their heist or whatever.
He's in an administrativerole. He's overseeing. Right?
Like, yeah, he. He keeps theteam together. He. He notices stuff
that no one. Mike is extremelyobservant. He notices stuff other

(01:17:13):
people don't notice. He's.He's a little bit more emotionally
intelligent, I think, than theother boys. But he's not Dustin and
he ain't Lucas and he's noteven John. Like Jonathan often. Sometimes
I'm like, what's Jonathan'sreal purpose here? But, like, Jonathan
usually is like, I have anidea. It may not be the best idea,
but he has one. And so why notjust take Mike? You could. If you

(01:17:39):
peeled him off from the team,you. Vecna could have a field day
with Mike.
That's fair.
Vecna would not want to takeNancy. That would be a mistake.
Okay. But you see, he let herget out the upside down unscathed
in the very first time whenshe went in. She's the first one
coming upside down. He was like.
He was like, throw her back.I've read this, and I'm good.
Yeah, I'm good.
He's like, I don't. I don'tneed. Yeah, I don't need this kind

(01:18:02):
of entry. I don't know ifyou've seen these tick tocks that
people do where they are,like, pretending to have been kidnapped
and the kidnapper basicallywants to, like, give them back. There's
like, a particular one that'slike, if you kidnapped a Booktok
girl. And it's so funnybecause it's like she's talking about

(01:18:23):
characters. She's singingTaylor Swift. She's. She's like,
into musicals, you know, like,that kind of thing. And I'm like,
yeah, that would be Nancy.
Yeah, for sure.
You send the name Nancy. Belike, excuse me, what are we doing
here? Why are we doing it? CanI interview you, Mr. Creel, for my
newspaper article?

(01:18:45):
I'm going to go back. Yeah,exactly. No, yeah, I agree. I mean,
yeah, it's a lot to predict.And we don't. We can't go. And I
guess last thing I'd say is wecan't go without saying that trauma
plays a big role in thevictims that he's, like, selected
thus far. So it's veryfascinating. That's why I think I'm

(01:19:08):
struggling with the Hollything, because I can't understand
why.
Because there is none as faras we know.
As far as we know.
Holly's been pretty sheltered.
Yeah.
She. She lives a prettyprivileged life. She's basically
Nancy, except much younger.Right. Like, before all this, Nancy
what. Didn't really have thatmany struggles. And in fact, it's
thrown in her face by Jonathan.
Yeah.
And. Yeah, I totally agree.That would be something different.

(01:19:31):
So you might be right. Theymight be the only thing that's special
about Holly is she's there.
Yeah.
And easy to pick off becauseshe. Because Mike doesn't. Is always
with the other. The rest ofthe group or whatever.
Yeah.
So that could be it.
I guess we're gonna find out.Well, we got one more season to cover
before we get to season five.We will be back with season four.

(01:19:55):
Four. Please hit us up. Let usknow what you're thinking about the
show coming up. Anything we'resaying, if you got any takes, hit
us up on kin folklore pod onInstagram, Twitter, also on tik tok,
and then also hit [e-mail]. any. Any
takes you got. And we will seeyou next time.

(01:20:18):
Bye, everyone.
It.