Kinfolklore: Stranger Things Sn.4 (Chapters 1-5)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:10):
Welcome back to Kin Folklore.This episode, we're diving into the
chaos, heartbreak and growingpains of Stranger Things Season 4.
The year is 1986. The music,obviously, Kate Bush. The vibe, trauma,
guilt, and horror. I'm Andrea.
And I'm Paul. And we'recousins who dive into fantasy and

(00:33):
sci fi shows that we love. Fewshows have captured our hearts and
the group chat quite likeStranger Things.
In preparation for the finalseason, we're rewatching the whole
saga from Hawkins to theUpside Down. Today we're covering
season four, chapters onethrough five. The beginning of a

(00:54):
darker, more emotional ridethat reminds us sometimes the scariest
monsters are the one insideus. And we will be spoiling all.
Obviously, four seasons. Thisis not a spoiler free podcast. So
we will talk. Even thoughwe're talking about just chapters
one through five here. We willtalk about, you know, we'll reference

(01:14):
the other chapters as well aswe continue through the episode.
My fingers are like arrows. Myarms like iron. My feet like spears.
So Kin Folklore will haveadult content. So if you like boobies,
like she likes boobies. CauseVicky definitely likes boobies.

(01:35):
Mm, she sure do.
Pause the fast times atRidgemont High at 53 minutes and
5 seconds. Bring in a ringerto your Cult of Vecna campaign. And
let's go. Erica.
Oh my God, I love her. She'sso good in this season.

(01:57):
Who knew she was gonna be thisgood in one year?
I know. It's kind of crazythat she just got the D and D stuff
a year ago and she's alreadyso good.
Oh, so good. So we're going totalk about chapters one to three.
Hellfire Club, Vecna's curse,the monster and the superhero to

(02:17):
kick things off. So we open upthis season with a get ready with
me to die for. Okay,everyone's least favorite scientist,
Dr. Brenner. He's getting hisshave, he's doing his crossword puzzle.
Getting his mind right. Youknow, I wake up at 5:30 in the morning

(02:38):
and I wash my face. I alsohave my favorite breakfast to make
sure that it's protein bound.I sit down and I read my favorite
crossword puzzle to get themind working. And then it's off to
work throwing a favorite suit.This guy is a trip. Oh, my God. It's
not.
It didn't remind you of acertain, you know, soon to be former
New York City mayor?
A disgraced mayor. The lookwhat I do all day but doesn't do

(03:00):
anything by the name of EricAdams. Yes, that's exactly what it
reminded me of.
As soon as I saw it, I waslike, I mean, he does more in the
morning than Eric Adams does.At least there's that.
It's crazy. It is so crazy. Hedid actually go to work and do something,
which is something to commit.His life really does seem quite boring

(03:23):
though, other than when he istorturing children for a living.
Okay, in this, this time we'regonna flash back to September 8,
1979 at the Hawkins Lab and wemeet many, quite a few of the other
children who lived therebefore something went horribly wrong.
And we see a room where 11 is,but we see this whole massacre. We

(03:47):
don't see 11, but we do seethe room with her number on it. Terrible
to see the massacre, the wayit goes down. Even Brenner is shook.
I think when you see Brennershook, it makes you even more shook
because he's normally okaywith the chaos and the fuckery. So
it's horrible to see. Itreminded me a lot of. And we'll talk
more about some of the thingsthat I think these things reference

(04:09):
it for, for them when we getinto the episode. But definitely
reminded me of Darth Vadercoming in with the Merking, all the
Padawans. So that was.
I'm sorry, that is not funny.That is not funny at all. It's just
funny to me because of theconversations that we've had.
Yeah.
About Star wars and also theconversations I've had with my husband

(04:34):
about Star Wars. You guys areboth big fans. I am not. And so it's
like I'm constantly like, Idon't know anything about Star wars,
but I, I know Anakin killedthe children.
He killed a bunch of children.Just killed. Killed up children.
And there's a lot of tie insto this, especially what the duffers
say later about how they arein season five going to be pulling
from Star wars and pullingfrom Darth Vader. So it, it's very

(04:56):
fascinating, this whole, thiswhole thing. So in 8611 now in California
with Joyce and the Byers boys,she is struggling, she's getting
bullied, she has no powers.And she's desperate to believe her
own letters that she has thisperfect life. She's writing these
letters to Mike that as yousee what's playing out for her, you

(05:20):
realize it's not accurate.Back home, Mike and Dustin, super
deep into the Hellfire Club.They are in their D and D era under
the chaotic rule of one EddieMunson. Wow. Cannot wait to get into
this stuff with Eddie.
Such A good entrance.
Lucas, however, is chasingnormalcy. He's chasing fitting in.

(05:43):
He's tired of getting pickedon, as he says. He just wants to
fit in. And he has gone toplaying basketball on the basketball
team.
Warming that bench.
Warming the bench very muchso. A bench warmer.
Keeping that bench warm.
He went from playing DD in thebasement to all of a sudden trying
to be Michael Jordan. Justbecause he saw it on TV did not mean

(06:07):
he was gonna be like Mike.Chrissy Cunningham is introduced
in this portion of the story,and she's haunted by trauma. She's
seeking drugs to find comfortfrom the things that she's experiencing.
She seeks out Eddie for thosedrugs. But she also becomes Vecna's
first victim. And one of theshow's most chilling scenes that
we've seen and how somebodygets done in. It felt like, is somebody

(06:31):
blood bending in thismotherfucker? What is happening?
I remember how I felt when Ifirst watched that scene. I was stunned
to silence. And I have to behonest, on the rewatch, I was then
stunned again to silencebecause I had forgotten how gruesome
it is. It's absolutely horrible.
Yeah. Yeah.
And considering that, like, afew minutes ago. Well, at the beginning

(06:55):
of this episode, we watchchildren die, right. That it shouldn't
be. Nothing should top that.Right? This. It is. It is. Is some
of their best horror work, for sure.
Yeah. It's a lot of death inthis first. In this first run, in
this first episode to thefirst few episodes. It's rough. You

(07:15):
know, Max is definitely goingthrough it. We see that she's showing
symptoms of the curse as well.She notices. I thought that was very
well done. That she noticesChrissy coming out of the same counselor's
office that she goes to. We'lltalk a lot more about that. Nancy

(07:36):
and Fred, her deputy editor atthe school paper, dig into the old
Krill murders. They kind ofstumble into that a little bit. Like,
they get there and then theyrealize that this with the uncle
telling Nancy, hey, this iswhat I think is responsible, not
Eddie. And, you know, Dustinnames their new monster. As usual.

(07:59):
Dustin bringing in the D and Dinto, hey, this is what's happening.
He names their new monsterVecna. Meanwhile, Hopper is alive
in the Soviet Union.
I mean, I'm happy Hopper'salive, but you know how I feel about
the Soviet Union.
The Russia plot is gonna get alot of commentary in this run episodes.
There's no question about it.It's happening. Joyce and Murray
go full Cold War comedy, triedto save him this is definitely where

(08:23):
his fingers are like a knife.His arms are like iron. Fighting
fucking 13 year olds. This iswhat's happening. And they're trying
to save him. And Brennerreturns from the grave to help Ellen
regain her powers.
Chapters four and five. DearBilly and the Nina Project. Riddled

(08:46):
with guilt and terror. Maxwrites goodbye letters and says bye
to her mom, which honestly was heartbreaking.
Yeah.
And visits Billy's grave whereVecna tries to get her. The running
up that hill sequence turnsher grief into survival, making music

(09:07):
a weapon against her owndespair. And we will talk extensively
about that scene because itwas one of the most incredible scenes
of the show and had everyonesinging that song for the rest of
the summer. Actually,honestly, I never stopped singing
it.
No, I've been singing it thiswhole time running up to the show
right now. I'm still runningup that hill. Like, I'm still doing

(09:29):
it.
You know, I've always lovedthat song, but that moment just made
it took it to a new level for me.
100%.
L. Now with Dr. Owens, who isstill being responsible and seems
to actually care about Elleand Brenner in Project, Nina is reliving

(09:49):
her own trauma that she hasrepressed, trapped in the looping
memory of this lab massacre.Joyce and Murray. I don't. Do we
have to talk about them?
We do really have to talkabout Joyce and Murray.
All right, all right. I mean,listen, the. The best Hopper dialogue
from the whole show comes fromthis. These stretches of episodes.

(10:12):
So fine, fine. If I have toput up with the plane antics and
the crash landing and all of that.
The only thing. No, forgetabout the plane antics and the crash
landing. We'll get to that.You're going to talk about that.
But one of the best thingsabout Joycen Murray was when she
actually gets the firstinitial package and this motherfucker

(10:32):
is walking her through,smashing the freaking doll.
Dropping the doll. And they'redropping the paint can on the doll.
Yeah, yeah.
And then the kids walk in andMurray's just there cooking dinner.
And they're like, who is?Like, what? What's happening? Oh,
my God. How did Murray gethere? And he's like, oh, I was in
town. Yeah, right. Murray andI just gotta go to Alaska. It's hilarious.

(10:53):
What a run.
Yeah, it's. Okay, fine. I likeJoyce and Murray together, so I'll
put up with it. But gettingback to the main story, meanwhile,
Hopper has been trying toactively get out of prison this whole
time. Hopper gets captured, hedelivers his devastating. I Am the
curse speech, which I want totalk about much more.

(11:16):
Yeah.
And by the end of chapterfive, Elle begins to remember what
happened to her. Max hasnarrowly. Narrowly survived Vecna.
And Hawkins realizes, yeah,the nightmare has evolved but never
really left.
Okay, this is a lot of liquorthat's about to be spilled. A lot.

(11:39):
I mean, this is a lot. I justwant to see.
This is like Game of Throneslevel four. One out.
Unbelievable amounts ofcarnage. So first, we're going to
start with the lab children.The children who went down in the
lab. We're going to pour oneout for them. Obviously. Chrissy
Cunningham. Sweet, haunted,gone too soon. Even remembered that

(12:03):
she did, in fact, know Eddie.I thought that scene with them we'll
talk more about was great.Fred Benson. You know, Nancy did
say she's gone through a lotof editors. I don't think this is
what she had in mind. PoorFred Benson had a haunted past that
we find out about. PatrickMcKinney, Jason's teammate. And then

(12:23):
Agent Harmonies. You know,Agent Harmon holds a very, very clear
distinction. Agent Harmon hasa nickname that is up there with
Sparky. Sparky Boom Man. Solet's talk like, unnamed hero agent.
I'm so glad I put my glass ofwater down. Or my jug of water. Rather.

(12:45):
Unnamed hero agent man thatArgyle, like, calls like. And they
just keep running with this.Like, Mike is unnamed hero agent
man. And I'm sitting herelike, why? This man had a. He had
a name.
I actually had him in theoutline as unnamed Agent hero man.
And then I was like, that's disrespectful.

(13:11):
So let's pour one out for allof our fallen soldiers from this
run of episodes. This goes outto all our fallen homies.
Yo, don't let the chin getlike that, y'.
All. All right. Okay. Oh, wow.Unnamed hero agent man is. I listen

(13:38):
to that. I was like, who isnaming these people? Sokka? Like,
what's happening? All right,so let's talk about. Let's kick it
off with Elle's letters. Why?Why is she lying to Mike? What do
you think it is?
I think El is very vulnerable.I don't really know, to be honest.
I've thought about this a lot,and I'm not really clear on why she's
lying to Mike. I think Elle isfeeling extremely vulnerable. She

(14:02):
does know that Mike and Hopperare both. Well, Hopper. She thinks
Hopper is dead, but she knowsthat they worry about her. And so
I wonder if it's just toprotect him, but it just seems.
I don't know.
There's a lot of people inthis episode who are spending significant
these episodes who arespending significant time lying to

(14:23):
each other. Nancy and Jonathanare not being truthful. Obviously
Will is holding back and Ellenot telling Mike what's going on
and not confiding and tryingto be strong. I think she is a self
protective thing, but I don'treally have a good answer for this
one.

(14:43):
I think she reveals it alittle bit later, but I think it's
connected to her perception ofwhat Mike's feelings are, how he's
writing this, you know, fromMike. From Mike. How he couldn't
say he loved her at the end oflast season. How she has to say I
love you too, Mike, and likewalk away. How he hasn't really,

(15:05):
you know, he hasn't been ableto. So I think she's protecting herself
a little bit. I think she'skind of like, I want him to think
everything's good. I want himto know that I'm settled in. I want
him to know that I'm doingfine because maybe that will get
him, nudge him to, to comecloser. Uh, you know, she's counting
the day she. Mike is kind ofher world once her dad is gone. And

(15:28):
I don't think that she'sreally fit into the new, new place.
And I don't know that she'stotally settled in. Even though I
believe Joyce, I think I'mgoing to be honest, I don't think
Will's doing a great job atbeing a brother in some of this run
of it. I think that he'sstruggling there. But I do think
that Joyce and Jonathan havetried their best to bring her into
the family. You can feel thevibe that Joyce is like, what that

(15:49):
that's, that's happened. Um,but yeah, I think that's part of
what I think is happening forEl. And it could be because of how
Mike's perception of El, like,you know, even in the beginning,
you know, like when, whenDustin and him are comparing girlfriends
and he's like, you know, mygirlfriend did say. He's like, you
do know that like Elle savedthe world like multiple times. He
doesn't like.

(16:09):
No, it's really concerning theway he talks about. I mean, Dustin
is saying that Susie is agenius. Yeah, obviously Ella's not
a genius the way she's notlike a computer science savant the
way that Susie is. But the wayhe, he reduces her to her, her abilities,

(16:32):
her powers, something that isinnate in her and not who she is
as A person is a real contrastto a speech that happens mere minutes
later when Nancy is talkingabout Jonathan and Jonathan is talking
about Nancy. While those twoare having problems, they're talking
about their qualities. Nancyis talking about how Jonathan is

(16:54):
a moral, good person, andJonathan is talking about Nancy's
drive and ambition and howimportant the newspaper is to her
and how everything she does,she does to the best of it. And,
you know, Mike is talkingabout 11. Like, oh, well, she has
superpowers, right? She's asuperhero. And that is a little disturbing.

(17:16):
Like, it is true. And we loveElle because she's a badass and she
has superpowers. But that'snot the only thing about El that
we as the audience care about.The fact that he doesn't have. He
doesn't, in that moment, havejust something else to say about
who she is. He's talking abouther Elle in the past. And El doesn't
exist anymore. She doesn'thave powers anymore.

(17:38):
Right?
Instead of the Elle in the moment.
Who I think is trying to dowhat. We'll talk a lot more about
this with what Eddie speaksabout forced conformity. I think
she's trying to be smallerbecause she just wants to fit in
and conform and be into. Shecould be struggling and working every
day to try to get her powersback and try to figure it out. She's

(18:00):
like, okay, you know what?Maybe this is better. Maybe I can
just be a normal kid and fitin here and try to, like, do this
this way. And I think whatyou're saying about how she perceives
Mike seeing her is playinginto the way that she's responding.
And she says, so she says, youdon't love me anymore. You just.

(18:23):
You know, you just care aboutme. Like, care. Like, you know, it
says from Mike. From Mike.From Mike when she confronts him
in the room when they havethat fight. And I don't know that
Mike has a very good responseto it. I don't know that he really
responds very well to it. AndI think she's perceiving that feeling
of, like, well, maybe he'sonly, like, into me because one day

(18:43):
my powers will come back, soI'm gonna be as normal as I possibly
can to see whether he reallyis, you know, cares, you know? So.
Yeah, And I have to be honest.I don't really love how the whole
love thing is with how, like,used in. In the plot, you know, it's.
It's very cliche of, like, ateenage romance. Like, the moment

(19:05):
that she. She. She'sStruggling in her powers, right in
the void, fighting with Vecna.That's when Mike is like, I love
you. I can't live without you.So this whole thing is. Is very.
I find it deeply frustrating,but I think it's supposed to be.
I think. I think we'resupposed to start this season with

(19:26):
everything feeling a littlebit emotionally fraught. Like, this
is not a season whereeveryone. All the relationships are
still intact. Like, whathappened to them in that mall really
changed things.
I agree. I think. I think thisis a big part of it. I think that
this shared trauma hasaffected each of them in different
ways, and they don't. Andthey're all processing it in real

(19:49):
time, even down to, like, lookwhat Mike's doing. First of all,
Mike, like, reading letters,full tighty whities, about to be
late to school. Zero. Shit.We're just gonna assume he did a
shower the night beforebecause his ability to get ready
that fast and run out withNancy, kind of wild. This man is

(20:10):
unbathed. But, you know, youcan tell that they're all processing
this different ways. And Maxis really having a hard time. We
see it that this is like atheme of this run of episodes about
what Max is struggling with.You know, since we last saw Max,
she was, you know, kind oflaughing and joking and making fun

(20:30):
of Dustin about the neverending story. And then she goes back
home and she's really quiet.Well, it's got even worse than that.
You know, her stepdad has leftsince Billy died. Her mom and her
had to move into a trailer.Her mom is drinking heavily. You
know, headaches and nightmaresare occurring. She's very closed
off in her communication withthe rest of the crew. She's closer.

(20:53):
I mean, it's frosty with herand Lucas in when he's standing on
the court and she's in thestands. And, you know, it's very
strange. Some of the exchangesare very, very tough. You know, like,
it's like you're not even hereanymore. It's like you're a ghost
or something. Maybe you shouldfind something that you're really
into too. Lucas says to Max,tough stuff from Lucas, but he's

(21:14):
trying to nudge her. What.What do you think about this whole.
How we're introduced to whereMax is in the beginning of the season?
What are your takes on it?
I think it's a really gooddemonstration of depression. Yeah,
I think. I think that Max'swhole storyline is some of the better

(21:35):
representation I've seen ofhow grief and depression play out
on screen in. In teenagers.And this is in the. You know, we're
talking in this episode. Inthis episode about the chapter where
she has that moment that she'srunning back to her life. But there's

(21:58):
part of Max's setup in thesefirst three episodes that does feel
like she's kind of apatheticabout life, that she's kind of removed.
She doesn't care anymore. Andthat is how depression plays out
in a lot of people. A lot ofpeople think depression is like,
you sit in bed all day and youcry. Depression can look really different

(22:20):
in everyone. But many peoplewith depression withdraw. They withdraw
from their relationships.Nothing brings them joy. They're
not able to be part of thecommunities that they used to. Her
grades are slipping. She.She's pushing away help. All the
alarm bells should be goingoff for one with Max. And Lucas is
trying. You know, he's. Thesekids are what, 14?

(22:41):
Yeah.
You know, they're. I thinkthey're freshmen. And so Lucas is
trying. He's doing his best,but it is kind of a rough conversation
when he's like, maybe youshould find something you care about.
And. And Max, like, flinches,kind of like.
Yeah. What is that supposed to mean?
Yeah, it's. It's a toughscene. But, you know, later Lucas
will say, I'm sorry I didn'tsee you, but I see you now, right?

(23:04):
Yeah.
But in rewatching this scene,I actually went back today and just
watched this scene. I waslike, actually, Lucas was doing his
best at 14.
I agree. No, I agree.
He was being kind of hard onhimself. He was doing his very best.
He's. He's trying to connectwith her. He's telling her, I can
see something is wrong.
And I've also tried to findsomething for myself to fit in and

(23:27):
get integrated into highschool. Maybe that would be also
helpful because it would takeyour mind off of what's wrong. That's
kind of where I think he wasgoing with it. It wasn't meant to
be harsh, you know?
Yeah. With some distance fromthe season, I understand Lucas better.
You know, when I first. Thefirst time I watched a season, I
was so annoyed with, like, allthe boys except for Dustin. I was

(23:50):
irritated with Mike. I was madat Will. And we'll talk about why
I was mad at Will in a littlebit. But, like, I was very irritated
with Lucas. And upon rewatch,I'm. I realize, okay, what Lucas
is doing actually makes sense.Lucas was unhappy, being bullied,
being othered. Being out onthe outside. He decided, I'm actually

(24:13):
gonna go on the. Try to be onthe inside. I'm gonna try to be.
To be normal. Right. Andthat's not only understandable, it's
valid. There's nothing wrongwith wanting to fit in.
No, I agree.
Despite Eddie's speech aboutwanting to. About conformity and
all that, there's nothingwrong with wanting to be normal.

(24:35):
There's nothing wrong withthat. Like, it's a totally natural
thing for humans to feel, butespecially for young people to feel.
But I think that that's.That's where I. I kind of see Eddie's
speech. And we'll. We'reabout. You know, we'll talk about
it in a second. About forcedconformity, killing the kids. Right.
And what Lucas is attemptingto do and what El is trying to do

(24:58):
as a thread that connectsthese different storylines. Because
I kind of. I kind of. Yeah, Ikind of feel like Lucas is battling
a couple of things, actually.All the things that you just said.
And also, we tend to. Not we,you know, not you and me, but as
a fan base, they tend to talkabout it. He's also one of the few
black kids in the wholeFreaking. In the whole area. So it's

(25:21):
like, not only am I, you know,dealing with being the nerd or the
weirdo or the outcast in thatway, I'm also dealing with being
in a minority in a town likethat that looks at me a certain way,
and he's trying to navigateall of those things at the same time.

(25:41):
And I think, like, that's, youknow, it's a. It's a. I know for
myself, this was a world thatI honestly, it was brought stuff
for me because I know as ayoung person, I was a person who
loved all of the Star warsstuff, was very into nerd culture,
and also had athletic abilityand wanted to play sports and wanted

(26:03):
that feeling of competitionand being involved with that, and
it was hard to straddle thatfence. So I really resonated with
what Lucas did there. Also, Ishared this with you earlier. You
and me were talking aboutthis. We've talked about this numerous
times. Jane, AKA L's highschool is the actual high school
that I transferred to in myjunior year of high school in New

(26:28):
Mexico. They say California,that's a high school in New Mexico
where they shot that. You cansee that Eagles thing in the background.
Those are the Golden Eagles. Iplayed on that basketball team, and
I tried to fit in there. And Ifeel. And I was one of the few black
kids in that school systemover there. And it felt weird. There
was a weird vibe of comingfrom Queens, New York, to this other

(26:50):
place. So, like, if you putElle's experience in that school
and Luca's experience in thatschool together in a blender, it's
a lot of how I felt as a kid.And I think more kids feel like that
than not. And so to yourpoint, reaching for normalcy is part
of how you feel like you'llsolve that problem, how you'll scratch
that itch of, like, how do Iget away from, like, being this kind

(27:12):
of, like, this outcast orpeople noticing me? And so I really
resonate with what Lucas isattempting to do for himself. How
he pleas with both Mike andDustin about, just please show up
to my game and just give methis. Like, he's not, like, saying,
I don't care about you guys.He's just saying, hey, I need this.
Like. And I think, like, thatwas. They understood it as friends.

(27:36):
They kind of. They weren'thappy about it, but they walked away
like, okay, he's not coming.
Real bummer that not only wefind out later that Erica has gone
to every single game, thateven though she. She trash talks
him, she insults him, thatshe's gone to every single game.
It's real sad that, like, allthree of them, his two best friends,
plus Erica missed the game.

(27:58):
Yes, I am sad that they missedhim hitting the game winning shot.
But I do want to call outblack excellence when you see it,
that both these Sinclair kidswere clutch in different ways. She
rolled the D20. He's hittingthe gay winning shot. And at the
same night, they are, like,out here, like, yo, we did. We carried
the town of Hawkins on our back.

(28:20):
Two tournaments to Sinclair winners.
Exactly. I am. I am pumpedabout that. That made me happy.
Yeah. So I did want to justcircle back to Max for a second and
talk about the running up thathill moment.
Yeah.
Because it is so iconic, and Ithink it put Stranger Things on a
new level.

(28:41):
Yeah.
It was the first time, I thinkI ever saw a moment from Stranger
Things break through tomainstream media, not just entertainment
media, but to just a regularMain Street. Like, I. They had stories
about this on, like, cnn,about how that scene put Kate Bush
back on the charts for thefirst time in, like, 40 years. Really

(29:05):
incredible use of both music.The lyrics from the song are. Are
perfect for the momentimagery. I mean, when you think of
her running through. What Ithink we are meant to understand
is Vecna's mind. Vecna's void,not his mind. I think where I've

(29:25):
settled, and I think I said ina previous episode that it's Vecna's
mind. I actually think this isVecna's void, which we should unpack
one day. Like what exactly wethink the void is, because I don't
think that's been reallyexplained either. But when you see
her running through Vecna'svoid with this, all this imagery

(29:47):
behind her, it's literallycollapsing around her. That is what
trying to get out ofdepression feels like. You take a
few steps, and then somethingcomes down in front of you and prevents
and slows you down. Somethingknocks you over, something. It is
such a beautifulrepresentation of what. A visual

(30:09):
representation of whatdepression feels like. And I've only
ever seen one other depictionin film or television do it as well.
And that's everythingeverywhere, all at once, huh? I think
that this was so powerful. Andalso, there's so many things. There's

(30:31):
just so much going on in thescene. Like, you're focused as an
audience on that little holewhere you can see Dustin Lucas and
Steve absolutely freaking out,right? And because, you know, if
she can get to that, if shecan get there, then she's. She'll
be okay. But there's so muchgoing on in Vecna's void that you're

(30:55):
like, what is actually. Whatis this, like, falling apart world
around her, right? And then inaddition to that, her. Her want to
live, her absolute survivalskills that kick in after we've watched
her be essentially apatheticfor two full episodes. I mean, in

(31:18):
three, she's a little. I thinka little bit less. But I. I think
that the scene just was, like,set up so well. It really paid off
as a moment. And it was. Iremember our group chat was.
Was like, oh, my God, are youkidding me?
When we got to episode four, Ithink. I think I got there first
because I have no life. And soI think I got there first and I was

(31:41):
like, guys, prepare yourself.And then, like, as everyone started
to get to that moment, we wereall like, wow, tears.
Tears. Like, legit tears.Like, I gotta say, like, first seeing
was Max's spirit. It waseverything that you just shared.
But I also just think, youknow, you see all these other people

(32:06):
die, and you see Max came intothis show as an addition to the party,
and you see her flashback inher memory of all the things that
have been that were broughtinto her life through having these
people in her life and allthat she's bought and all the memories.

(32:26):
And that snaps her out of,like, even the thought of giving
up and letting Vecna win. Andshe is probably one of the first.
She's the first person that wesee actually stop Vecna from doing
what he's intent on doing. Andit is the party and that shared bond
that does that by finding outthat music has this real connection

(32:49):
to being able to stop thisfrom happening. I think there's so
many things, like one of thethings that Dr. Hatch says that unlocks
this moment. They set it up sowell. It's so casual. He says one
of the most popular areas inthe listening room is the listening
room. We found that music hasa particularly common effect on the

(33:12):
broken mind. The right song,particularly one which holds some
personal meaning, can prove asalient stimulus. But there are those
whose mind is beyond cure. Andthen you see that after they set
that up and they find out andrealize that this is what happened
to Victor Creel and all ofthose things that Max is like, sitting

(33:33):
there, that Max is like, okay,is she beyond repair? Will she not
be able to fight back? Is shegonna give in? No, she's not. She's
gonna take a piece and a chunkof Vecna with her and she's gonna
run out of there. And it'sbeautiful. It's just. It's so moving.
Them fighting for her and herfighting for them is what makes that

(33:54):
scene. It's not the monster.It's not the fact that she might
die. It is the shared love offriendship and found family that
we all had collectively inthat moment. We're all in there collectively.
And when you were like, waittill you get to four. We start watching.
Even us chatting in the groupchat. We're experiencing this together.

(34:14):
And this is what makes us lovethese stories.
Absolutely. Like, I. It wasset up really well. And I. What I
particularly love about thatis that she catches Vecna by surprise.
Right.
He doesn't see, he doesn'tseem to have considered this. It's
a weakness he hadn't anticipated.
Right.

(34:35):
It's never happened to himbefore. And so it really makes you
wonder, like, Chrissy and Fredmaybe had a chance. They maybe had
an opportunity to survive ifthey had just had something, music
or otherwise. It tethered themto. To. And that activated their.

(34:58):
Their. Their want to survive,to get away.
Yeah.
But this. This moment is. Wecould talk. We could do a whole episode
just on episode four.
Right.
But we're not going to. Butthis woman is just. It's so it's,
it's honestly one of the bestthings that the Duffers ever put

(35:19):
together. Actually, I believeDear Billy is written by the same
woman who wrote the firstShadow, Kate Teffrey. I might be
saying her name wrong. I'll,I'll check, but I think it might.
I, I don't think this is anepisode the Duffers wrote. But anyway,

(35:39):
incredible episode.
Yeah, I, I, I love it. I lovethe episode. I love this moment.
I love the choice of song. Ilove that they were able to bring
a whole generation into, like,Kate Bush, you know, I mean, people
were, like, into looking upother songs and seeing her videos
and checking out was really great.
And I confess something toyou, okay, so I didn't know this

(36:06):
was a Kate Bush song.
I remember you told me this.Oh, you got to say it. I go, that's
great. That's a great story.
I have been listening to thissong on, like, a regular playlist
since around 2011, when it wason the Vampire Diaries. And it was.
It was a cover by Placebo.
I remember you said that.
And to be honest with you, Istill kind of prefer that version

(36:30):
for some things, but certainlythe Kate Bush version, the original
has a special place in myheart now. But I still think that.
I just think it's really funbecause when I heard it on the show,
I was like, oh, a cover ofthis song.
I remember you telling methat. And we cracked up about it,
and I was like. And that mademe go, listen to the other version,
because I had never heard thatversion. Because Friends of the Pod,

(36:54):
I know that there's beenpeople who have reached out to us
outside of the Lost Boys orother things. I have not really done
the Vampire Diaries. I've beenbeing nudged. Andrea is pushing me,
but I have not really donethat show. So I had not heard the
version before you told meabout it.
Kate Trefry has not. Did notwrite Dear Billy.

(37:16):
Sorry.
She did write another episode.She wrote the Nina Project, which
is the episode after this.
Oh, that's a great. That's.That's also one that has a really
big thing around music that Ihope we get to talk about as well.
The mute and because really,that's what I think a lot of the
payoff here is we found itagain. We were doing our rewatch,
you know, but with startingfrom Should I stay or Should I go?

(37:39):
But what we're. The. There's athesis here that has been present
through the whole series thatI think the doctor at the mental
institution, Dr. Hatch saysand then Robin reiterates, and that
is that music is. Can be alifeline back to reality. And that
music can touch a part of thebrain. Right. That words cannot.

(38:02):
And I think that this keepsshowing up over and over and over
and over and over again inthis series. So I think it's going
to have some part to play inend game of this whole entire thing.
I totally agree. I think oneof the things that I wanted to talk
about and what we learned iswe learned that Vecna has weaknesses.

(38:22):
And so I do think it's goingto be interesting to see how those
weaknesses are deployed. Now.You can't repeat the same thing over
and over again. Vecna nowknows this is a weakness of his.
Right. But is it a weaknessthat he can actually control or,
you know, or plan for, rather?Or is it something that is just.

(38:43):
He has to kind of deal with?And I have. We'll talk about the
trailer in another episode.But I have some theories about what
we're seeing in the trailer aswell. In terms of using sound and.
Or music is resistance.
Yeah. And also how the Duffersuse non diegetic sound to tell stories

(39:08):
on top of their adding ofsound that's happening in the story
that the characters can hear.I thought one use of that talking
about Max's name with Max andLucas, because we've been talking
about them a lot, which Ithink they have a great run, this
whole run of episodes isthere's the song that's playing when
they're driving to go see hermom and for her to drop off the letters.

(39:30):
The lyrics of that song areeverything I think that Lucas would
want to say to Max in thatmoment. And it's just beautiful.
Like, you talk a lot, but youdon't say much in the things you
do. You're always right in allour fights because no one else can
shut you down or you turnaround or turn you around. You should

(39:53):
see yourself. Like, he's like,basically, it's like those words.
He's looking at her as thissong is playing. Like, almost like,
I wish you could see you how Isee you. And it's just beautiful
the way the Duffers do that.Their music supervisor. I don't want
to give them all. I knowpeople work collaboratively, but
the way that they have workedcollaboratively as storytellers to
use music to put words in thecharacter's mouth that aren't even

(40:16):
spoken, where you don't needto force it through dialogue is absolutely
amazing. I just love it.
Yeah. And I've been thinking alot about how TV shows are often
written. Assuming we'rescrolling through our phones. They
don't seem to build by toomuch into that. You know, they're

(40:36):
not writing. They're stillshowing a lot. You know, there are
times where I think there'stoo much exposition and there's too
much telling and not showingthat happened. They. They use Dustin
like that all the time. Allthe time, all the time. Like, even.
Even right before Max goes tosay goodbye, when Dustin is essentially

(40:57):
explaining everything toSteve. That's a very much like. Just
in case you were scrollingthrough your phone. Let's catch you
up. However, there's lots thatthey do in this season that you absolutely
cannot look away. Like, I havetried to watch this as kind of like
background. It doesn't reallywork that way if you're trying. If
you're trying to pay attentionto the details at all, because there

(41:21):
are long scenes where youvery, like, go talking about the
Nina project, which is chapterfive. There are a lot of scenes where
there's no. Elle doesn't speakhardly at all, or no one really speaks.
You're just kind of watchingthe children and watching Ellen flashing
back to these experiences fromwhen she was, I guess, around 8 years

(41:45):
old. Although Elle looks a lotyounger than that to me. But I. I
just think that the way thatthey use sound visuals, it. It's.
It just is what makes the showso rich and layered. And I truly
appreciate it because it's.It's gotten better with every season.
With every season, they've.They've made it more textured and

(42:07):
layered and complex. And thestorytelling feels really comprehensive
in a way that it's obviouslynot perfect there. I have lots of
quibbles, but in a way that alot of other fantasy shows are other.
All special effects and verylittle done in other ways. And I

(42:31):
don't want to call out anyparticular shows, but there are a
few sci fi shows and fantasyshows where I'm there. I'm either
there for the characters, orI'm there for how beautiful it looks,
or I'm there for the concepts,but I am not there for everything.
Don't spend a billion dollarson a fantasy show. You know what
I mean? I'm just saying Iwasn't trying to chase. Tried to

(42:53):
change George rr. You knowwhat I mean? Like, it's fine.
It wasn't gonna be me. Iwasn't gonna say it, but. And no
disrespect to people whoreally enjoy that show.
I love that Show. I actually.There's parts of it I like. I know
you. We differ on that. Bestparts of it. I like.
I mean, I still haven'tfinished season one.
Oh, it's great.
But, yeah, it's not really toknock. I think this is hard. It's

(43:15):
hard to do this. And I alsothink this is why this show takes
so long to make. In additionto all the other elements that have.
Have delayed it. The pandemic,the strikes, all of that is fair.
But I also think that they,like, really take their time because
they. They are trying to levelup, trying to build up, trying to
get all of these. Theseelements right, to make it almost

(43:38):
feel like an immersiveexperience. Like, and these episodes,
the. Whether you're in theHawkins lab in 1979 or you're running
away from Vecna with Max, youfeel like you're in the story 100%.
It's so. It's. It. Yeah. And,I mean, I was struck. You know, we've
been talking about music, andwe've been talking about all these

(43:59):
different things, and youmentioned the Nina Project, and we've
been talking about how youfeel like you're part of it. And
the layers there's. In theNina Project episode, I was struck
by the layers that I didn'tcatch before about Brenner and Elle
coming back together. Andthere's the Luke part, but then there's

(44:19):
the part where he speaks overthe loudspeaker and he tells her
this story about the operathat was written by a woman who was
an opera named Nina that waswritten by. About a lover who lost
her lover and didn't know. Andshe kept showing up to the train,
like, looking for her lover,and she basically. He basically says,

(44:42):
hey, you know, like, take thenext step. You know, if only Nina
had known the truth, like, shewould have moved the next step. But
while he's saying that,there's a song in the opera playing,
and I'm going to butcher thetitle, but the song of the opera
is called Quad Les Bien a MeReverendra. And that is by the same

(45:07):
person who wrote the opera.And the song's translation means
when the beloved returns. Andhe's been waiting on her return.
So the whole fucking place isnamed in waiting for her return,
which hits back to where Owensis like, oh, everybody, you're kind
of a big star here. Everybodylooks for you and is looking at you.

(45:29):
It's like this whole situationwas for her return. And he's giving
this information, and so thelayers to that storytelling is phenomenal.
It's fucking phenomenal.
It is really well done.There's some tricky stuff happening,
though, with the project,Nina, and I can't remember if it's
in this episode or if it's inthe next one, but the way that Brenner

(45:53):
seems to be able to tell Owenswhat El is experiencing in the moment
when she's in the deprivationtank really bugs me.
Oh, do we want to talk plotholes? I love this. I'm with you.
Yes, please. Because I havesome. I have another plot hole that
really fucking bothers me.Like, honestly, I don't know if it's.
A plot hole or just poorlyexplained what's going on. Like,

(46:16):
I thought about this a littlebit, and then I went on Reddit to
see if anyone else had thisquestion. And several. Several people
had this question on Reddit,and people come up with. With work,
how this could work and what'sactually happened. Brenner knows
what is on camera, so he knowswhat Ella's experiencing. But the

(46:39):
way that it is framed isalmost as if Brenner can see what's
going on in El's mind.
Yeah.
And he absolutely cannot. Sothis. This actually bugged me a little
bit.
Yeah, it bugged me a littlebit, too. And this. This is something
that I've read about as. Aswe've been preparing for this. And

(46:59):
another one that bugged me wasNancy's conversation with. With Eddie's
uncle about Victor Creel,where she references one of her colleagues
that she used to work with atthe other paper. And you start thinking
to yourself, well, how thoseguys turned into blobs. And if there

(47:19):
was another. If there wasanother investigative reporter that
worked at the time that allthose motherfuckers turned into slime,
he would have probably. Thisperson would have probably been like,
yo, where did my colleaguesgo? I'm not stopping until I figure
it out. And I would have. Hewould have looked deeper than, you
know, they'll try to explainaway. Oh, but the mall fire. Come
on. Like, are you serious?Like, so that bugs me, too. I feel

(47:40):
like there's some things thatthey just. They just. They know it's
not as important, and peoplearen't gonna do that type of digging.
So they just let it go. Likethe same thing as what Brenner's
doing. It's like, they justlike, okay, cool, whatever. You're
gonna.
No, this. I think this is alittle bit different because they
write it intentionally, in myopinion. They're intentionally writing
it as if Brenner can see whatis. So he can narrate to Owens what

(48:03):
El is experiencing.
Right, right.
I think it's an intentionaldecision. I just don't think it's
one that works because it tookme out of the moment. I'm like, what
the hell is going. You're on ashow where you have people going
into each other's minds.
Yeah, yeah.
You. I think you have to bepretty clear about what's happening
there. So not a big, big deal.It just did bug me a little bit.

(48:25):
So how does he. How does heeven communicate and know where she
is in the vision to be able to communicate?
Because it's not like they'reshowing her one thing. They're showing
her. She has multiple screensin front of her.
Right, right.
So, anyway, it just bugged me.But. But we're already in episode
five. We did not talk aboutwhat got Elle in this situation in

(48:47):
the first place, which is thisnonsense with Angela.
Justifiable crime. Justifiable crime.
All right, all right. I'm oftwo minds about the Angela situation.
Yeah, I know we've hadnumerous conversations about this,
and I don't want to see whereyou've landed today after your rewatch.
Go ahead, continue.

(49:08):
I still think it was horrible.She clocked her with a roller skate.
And I, I. While I think thatAngela is horrible, and I would.
I. I enjoy seeing horriblethings happen to horrible people.
The. The fight, the level ofviolence, even I gassed when she

(49:28):
clocked her with the rollerskate. However, I. On my multiple
watches, I do feel more that Iunder. I understand what was going
on with Elle in that moment.
I. I mean, I'm. I'm good with.
Look, I understand whathappened, but I want to just say
that when we believe that Ellemay have murdered all of the other

(49:50):
kids. Right. Because at thispoint, we don't know that Elle isn't
the one who didn't kill allthose other kids.
Right.
We have seen L covered inblood at the lab with all these other
kids.
What have you done? Right.
What have you done?
Yeah.
And then like an episode laterwhen she doesn't have any powers,
she uses violence againstsomebody who is bullying her. It

(50:13):
does make you wonder. Is. WasElle capable of something that maybe
in an uncontrolled flash of.Of. Of anger, killed all those other
kids?
All right, I'm going to coverall that you just said. I hear you,
but I'm going to cover all youjust said with two characters. Comments.
Very rare. It's going to bevery rare. This, like, lover of cannabis,

(50:35):
Ingestor of fucking pineapplepizza. Yuck. There's very rare times
that I will be like, argylehas words of wisdom. But I'm going
to give Argyle his words ofwisdom. I know it's upsetting and
shit is what he says, but thatfuture prom queen's going to be all
right. She going to be all right.
It's true. It's true. She'llbe fine. But it was still horrible.

(50:58):
Elle didn't know she would be fine.
And then Owens says it thebest. She's like, am I in trouble?
And she's like, what, for thething with the roller skate? No,
no, we'll make that go away.Well, that's fine. You're good. You're
good.
You're good.
Money like.
No, I was like, I have cleanedup far worse than that. I'm a. Get
her parents in touch of a goodplastic surgeon.
She'd be. I agree. You know.You know, she's going to learn. Don't.

(51:23):
Don't play somebody in frontof everybody else, and don't talk
about somebody's dead parent,and don't be trying to look cool
in front of somebody's man.
But let's talk about Will andhow Will is noticeably unable to
stand up to anyone and defendhis sister.

(51:46):
Unable or unwilling?
I think he's unable. I'm gonnagive Will the benefit of the doubt
that, like, he's dealing withhis own trauma from being bullied
back in Hawkins. But the wayhe just lets her hang out and dry.
And it really bugs me. It bugsme for a couple reasons. One is when
it's time to buck up to AgentStinson, he don't got. All of a sudden,

(52:07):
he's. He's talking with hiswhole chest.
Whole chest, whole chest,whole chest.
A whole lot of bass in hisvoice. What do you mean? We can't
go back to Hawkins, right?What do you mean? All our friends
are there. Whole chest. So youdon't have any problem speaking up
to authority. You don't haveany problem telling literal armed
people in your house how youfeel, but you couldn't. You couldn't

(52:30):
stand by your sister's sidewhen she needed you the most.
There's another reading ofthis, though. Wait, wait.
Let me. Let me finish. Let me finish.
Okay, okay.
Let me finish. My secondproblem with it is that we get that
beautiful scene with him andJonathan later, which is Jonathan
essentially telling Will, Idon't. I see you and I care about

(52:53):
you, and whatever it is yougot to tell me, I'M I'm still your
brother. I will always be yourbrother. Jonathan would never let
anybody bully Will. The waythat Will just stands by and lets
Elle get bullied. And in fact,Jonathan and Argyle are. Are both
like ready to. Ready to upwhen something went wrong with the

(53:13):
kids. So he's had this exampleof all these people being willing
to fight with him, includingElle, who has saved his life multiple
times at this point. Bothersme to my core. It is there for a
reason. I believe that this ispart of. Of Will's story that they're
setting up, that Will is goingto have to step into that role of

(53:35):
being the type of person whodoes something brave, who. Who does
something that feelsuncomfortable in this. In a moment
like this, who can stand upfor Elle and his other friends when
necessary. I. I understandsome people think it's just jealousy
about Mike. I think it goes.It's. I think it's more than that.

(53:57):
So I think he's written thisway so we will notice a change in
season five when he can stepinto a heroic moment. But it. I still
find it so hard to watch himbe in the same classroom as they're
making fun of his sister abouther dead dad.
I totally agree. Especiallyknowing how his mom feels about her

(54:17):
dead dad as well. I totallyagree. Based on him knowing what
Hopper did to save them. Ialso think that there's another piece.
I agree with everything youjust said. And I'm going to add one
other piece that we havetalked a lot and you know my running
theory that the Upside downand all of this is somehow connected
to Will's consciousness. If infact that is the case, besides just

(54:41):
being jealous about Mike orwhatever it is, Elle represents the
person who opened the gate whowas able to do all those things and
now she has no powers. Andmaybe if he. And notice what you
said. He bucked up when it wastime to go back to Hawkins, but he
didn't buck up. So why do youwant to get back to Hawkins, the

(55:03):
place that you have been sotortured that you have had all these
terrible things happen. Maybethe Mind Flayer is not totally out
of this dude. Maybe there'ssomething that I always saw that
scene as there's somethingelse going on with Will that has
to do with the relationshipthat the Upside down has to 11 and

(55:24):
Vecna has to 11 and the mindflayer has to 11 that he was willing
to let her be humiliated inthat way. And also there is some
motivation based on thejealousy. Sure. Of like with Mike.
But it has more to do withthat piece because why do you want
to get back to Hawkins so bad?Of all the people, you should be

(55:45):
the last person wanting to goback to Hawkins. Of everybody.
That's really fair. That'sfair. I'm not going to argue with
that. I think maybe if we hadrecorded this a month ago, I would
maybe be pushing back more.But I actually agree with you that,
like, now that it'sessentially been confirmed for us

(56:05):
in the trailer that Will isstill part of the. The plan. Right?
I mean, it's not, that's notexplicitly confirmed, but I think
we can draw our own.
You're gonna help me one lasttime. It's pretty damn explicit.
Right?
But I think that's, I thinkthat's a true, really fair interpretation

(56:30):
that some part of Will was,Would never warm to L because L is
a problem for this hive mindthat he is connected to but no longer
hurt by. And so I. Abs, Ithink you're, you're, you're, you're

(56:50):
possibly right. I can't arguewith you.
We have. I mean, listen, we'regonna find out. It's coming, it's
barreling. So let's, let'stalk about some funny moments. We
had a lot of fun.
We gotta have some levity.
We gotta have some levity.
Let's talk about some of this heavy.
This stuff is heavy. So peanutbutter is damn. Banned in the motherland.

(57:11):
Is absolutely, absolutelyamazing. I buy this for $2. I sell
it back for 10, 15. Oh, yourmother, the way that it.
Sent me, like, I can't explainit. It's his delivery about it and
it's like of all the thingsthat he could choose to smuggle,
peanut butter is like the one thing.
Yeah, no, it's fucking great.It's fucking great. I also separately,

(57:35):
like, love Erica Sinclair'swalk in the Undercover. Like she's
AKA the Undercover nerd, AKAthe ice Cream Bandit, AKA you can't
spell America without Ericawalking in with the flag and laying
Eddie Munson low. Are we gonnado this? Are we gonna chit chat like

(57:58):
it's your mama's book club?
It's so good. My game gamesees game. Because he's like, all
right, let's go definitely dothis. Oh my God, it's Ted Wheeler
has some of the best momentsin this run of episodes too. When.

(58:20):
I know you're going says.
That he's. He has a HellfireClub thing. And he's like, why don't,
why don't you just call it thehigh school dropout club. I'm like,
ted, it's literally a club ofkids in high school. Like, what are
you talking about?
When do they become. When dothey become reasonable again? What

(58:41):
age? Oh, my God, this is great.
Later, what he says to Dustin,why don't you try sticking together
at a different house?
That's good. Why'd you trysticking together at a different
house? Is. Is great. Dustinand Ted's relationship is hilarious.

(59:01):
From him telling him off thattime to like, now he's eating up
all his food. Eating him outof house at home. Oh, it's great.
I love it.
Especially since Karen's like,make yourself at home. And like,
I'm the one who pays the billsaround here. These kids eating all
of our food.
Oh, my God.
Is not even here. Like, Mikeis not.
Mike is gone. Like, Nancy hastaken on the kids and she's like,

(59:24):
it's so good that you guys aresticking together. Like, Carrie,
you don't see that this is.This is weird. Like, it's just all
of them are there with yourolder daughter. Like, it's weird.
It's crazy.
Anyway, also, Erica's momentwhen Jason comes looking for Lucas
at the house. I. I see he'staken a step down from Max.

(59:49):
Oh, my gosh. Great.
Great. Because Jason has noidea how to interpret that. And I'm
just like, it's so good. Erica.
Yeah.
Like, is it not even. Erica isnot making any. Like, she's. It's
not a joke about being gay.
Yeah.
It's just a. It's just like.
But also like how she.
Max is better than you know.

(01:00:09):
And even as she said as she'stelling him off about like, yo. And
tell him when you find him,I've been covering for him. And that's
going to increase his DPY by6%. That is daily percentage yield.
Like, let me. I know you're adumb jock. I know you're out here.
Like, I have a question aboutthis. Oh, we. So when we finish the

(01:00:32):
funny moments, we do need tocircle back to our boy Eddie for
a moment because we didn'tgive him his due.
Yeah, yeah. We're going totalk about. We're going to talk about
Eddie. We'll talk about.
But I have a question aboutthis. Where does Lucas get money?
Like, he. She's charging him$10 a day. This. None of these kids
have jobs.
Yo. Do you think that this.
Yo.
Erica is a flag waving. Youcan't spell America without Erica

(01:00:56):
capitalist. She don't Care.She's going to put him in debt. Whatever
he don't have, he's going toowe in the negative. She's going
to be like, look, I just.
I was like, wait, so is sheclaiming his allowance? And then
I was like, yo, $10 would be ahigh allowance in 1986.
She said he gonna buy her theNintendo with the Duck Hunt. Like,
she was. She. She threw inDuck Hunt because, you know what's

(01:01:16):
funny is you could buyNintendo and you could just get Mario
Brothers, but if you wantedthe Duck Hunt, you had to buy the
separate gun. It didn't cometogether right away. So she was out
here in 86, like, you're yougoing to give me the Nintendo with
the Duck Hunt? Like, both giveme that. All she would have had to
do is talk about the littleaction pad. Action Pad. Oh, my God.
Do you remember the ActionPad? Action Pad was amazing.

(01:01:37):
The action pad was what it wasin Nintendo.
There was, like, this gamewhere you could, like, run and jump
over, like, hurdles, and itwas like, you connected this.
Oh, no, no, no, no. I was.When I first got my Nintendo, I was
Duck Hunt all day, every day.Me and them ducks was worn on a regular
basis. Every day after school,I would take out that little plastic

(01:01:58):
gun. It would be on andpopping with those ducks for a couple
hours before I did my homework.
It was Duck Hunt. It was MarioBrothers. It was the, The. The Mike
Tyson Sponge out game. Thatwas, that was. Those are, Those are
my.
I didn't have that. I, I hadMario, but I, I, it was. I didn't
even care about Mario. I wasjust like, these ducks gotta die.
Yeah, no, it's great. It'sgreat. Oh, I love. I love the duck.

(01:02:21):
I love Duck Hunt. And then, ofcourse, another funny moment set
up nicely Previous season.Tammy Thompson out here sounding
like a Muppet in real time.
The delight with which Robinand Steve both react to the announcement

(01:02:42):
that Tammy, all the way fromNashville, is gonna be singing the
National Anthem is so funnybecause they're both so giddy excited
about it. And then as soon asshe starts singing, it's genuinely
bad.
Genuinely bad.
Genuinely terrible.
Really, really bad.
I was like, what is she doingin Nashville? Not getting voice lessons.

(01:03:03):
And then, of course, two. Twofinal words. I love Robin's crash
out. And Dustin scaring theshit out of Holly. Your face. I was
like, dustin is me. It's me.I'm the problem. It's me.
I'm just gonna say, this isreal time. I have never related to

(01:03:27):
Holly Wheeler more in my life.Holly was too young, just as I was.
Yeah.
Exposed to Nightmare on Elm Street.
The beauty.
Terrifying.
The beauty in it was. I felt,I felt, I felt like, damn. I remember
doing. But at least he didn'tshow her the movie. I actually. We
showed you the movie, so.
You sure did.
Yeah. That's part. But the,but the crazy part is the meta portion

(01:03:51):
of how they're talking aboutFreddy Krueger. And you know, Victor
Creel is played by the actorthat played Freddy Krueger. So it's
like actually really freakingdope. Like when I was like, oh, shit.
Like, there's like this metacomponent that they always throw
in of like, here is FreddyKrueger. Sure. We're talking about,

(01:04:11):
like, you know, maybe it's.Maybe Vecna's like, Freddy Krueger.
We're referencing FreddyKrueger. We're talking about it to
Holly Scare the shadow. Andalso, by the way, the guy who plays
Freddy Krueger is also playinganother character. Pretty fascinating
stuff the Duffers do here. Ilove that shit.
Yeah. And I believe seasonfive, they're going to have Frank
Darabont as a director.

(01:04:31):
Oh, wow.
Which is like. I was like,that's a big get. Wow, that's a big
get. I was genuinely like, letme fact check this. I think he is
directing one of the. Morelike the, like episode five or six,
four, which. Which we knowfrom Stranger Things history tend

(01:04:54):
to be sort of like, sort of big.
Yeah.
Real big. Now, I think thisupcoming season will have a different
cadence to it than previousseasons because it has to.
Yeah.
I think that it has to startlike this one right from the beginning.
There's not going to be anybuild up, so we'll see. But I was
like, oh, wow. Okay. That's abig get for them.

(01:05:14):
Yeah.
But yes, the, the Robin crashout is so good because one, I'm Nancy
in that moment. I'm freakingout. But it works.
Yeah, no, it works.
And like, Rob, this is one ofthe things we talked about this,
I think, in our last episodein, in for season three. I, I, this,

(01:05:38):
this matchup is phenomenal.They both have. They're so different.
Yeah.
But they bring somethingdifferent in. Different perspectives
and different approaches. Thatis absolutely necessary. Sometimes
Nancy needs somebody to tellher to calm the f down.
Yeah.
Jonathan's not going to do that.
Nope. Nor is.

(01:05:59):
I mean, actually, Jonathan has tried.
He has tried, but he.
It's more fraught for him. Ithink Robin can just be like, here,
I'll do It in a different way.And my way works too, because Nancy
can be a little bit of acontrol freak. So it's the crash
out is so funny. I love it. Ilove Robin.
So the part that Me too. Ilove the two of them together. I

(01:06:22):
mean, I was walking throughthe house and I was like, do I think
that that pairing I love closeto even in the same neighborhood
as Dustin and Steve. Do Ithink that's Dustin and Steven? I
was like, Dustin and Steve'sspecial. But I do like this pairing
a lot. Like, I really do lovethe two of them, the way that they

(01:06:44):
investigate. And I thoughtthat what was fascinating was how
she could real time realizethis guy is all about the ego and
pretension and accomplishment.And if I just say that I wanted to
be you and I wanted to bethis. It was like the whole buildup
of her story to culminateinto. I didn't want to be this other

(01:07:06):
thing. I wanted to be you. Youcould see and be like, oh, wow. Oh
wow. You know what I mean? Soit was. She has very good self awareness
too. She's very aware, whichis, I mean, awareness of her surroundings
as well. It's great. I love it.
Yeah. She, she's veryemotionally intelligent.
Yeah, agreed. So, I mean, Ithink some of the things that, that
we, we still wanted to talkto. I think we want to, we want to

(01:07:28):
talk a little bit about Eddie.I think like let's, let's, let's
do that. And then, and then Ireally do think we should spend some
time on. I do think that weshould spend some time on Hopper
and his self. His view ofhimself and, and, and what he confides
in Jack and Hagar about. I'msorry I could help it.

(01:07:52):
I forgot. He's jacking. Thatwas so true. Has no name. Do we ever
get Enzo's actual name?
He has no name.
All right, so let's, let'stalk about Eddie. We talked about
his, his intro, but we talkedextensively offline about why Eddie

(01:08:17):
works for us and why Eddie isprobably their most well written
new character. He's only withus for night the nine episodes. I
don't even think he's in allnine episodes. But he's only with
us for those nine episodes.But the fans are still talking about
Eddie's death three yearslater. Yeah, Eddie's introduction

(01:08:44):
with his, his speech about themocking, the satanic panic. We're
the freaks because we like toplay a fantasy game. The Force Conformity,
which is just so Gen X coded.The whole speech was so Gen X.
That's great.
I was.
It's amazing.
Me being an elder Millennialliterally rolled my eyes because
I was like, oh, here, herethey go.

(01:09:07):
Conformity, Come on.
Millennial had a Gen X cousinor sibling who gave them this speech
at some point in their life.
100.
We've all heard this speech.
Yes.
He's also not scared of Jasonand the jocks. He directly challenges
them. But Eddie is not brave.And that's like a big part of his

(01:09:28):
storyline that he's not thebrave guy. He says, I'm not the hero.
I mean, he turns out to be ahero, but he says I'm not, you know,
I know I'm not the hero.Right. His conversation with Chrissy
is almost in a three minute,five minute scene. The whole point

(01:09:50):
of this damn show.
Yeah.
You've got two people. Let'sChris. Chrissy he calls the queen
of the high school. Right.Well, in a previous scene, Fred tells
Nancy that she's the mostlike, desired girl in all of Hawkins.
Right. Chrissy is, is ourNancy. Eddie is our freaks. Right.

(01:10:11):
But they're both struggling.They're both. They come together
with compassion, a commonmemory. They find common ground.
He disarms Chrissy, who isobviously extremely scared about
what she's doing. She's not adrug user. She just really is scared
about what she's experiencing.And instead of being snarky or menacing

(01:10:35):
her the way he did with Jason.Right. We know Eddie doesn't have
a lot of response, respect forthe jocks. He sees Chrissy as a human.
And that's like, that's thiswhole show. You've got Nancy, the.
A popular girl. I mean, Idon't think Nancy was super popular
before she started datingSteve, but like she had the potential.

(01:10:55):
Right? You got Steve, the mostpopular kid. You. And you've got
Dustin. All in it together.Right. You've got like the, the kid
who got bullied about histeeth and, and has a disability.
All in. All in this together,they're all one big found family.
And I love that. The EddieChrissy moment and Eddie's whole

(01:11:16):
character actually is just areminder of like, that's actually
if we just take. Take away thepretenses outside layers of our identity
and we connect on a humanlevel. We actually have more in common
than we do. That separates us.High school is hell for a reason.
It's because people put, putthemselves and others into these

(01:11:37):
boxes. And Eddie, even thoughhe's, you know, a grown man.
Yeah. They call him outalready. Like, did you say that last
year and the year before that?But this year is going to be my year.
Eddie's a grown man, but,like, he recognizes outside of that
microcosm of the cafeteria,when it's just the two of them, that.

(01:11:59):
That Chrissy is just a person.A person who's struggling with something,
and he wants to help her.Like, desperately wants to help her.
Yeah.
And so having her die in frontof him the way that she does is already
horrible. But then to have himbe blamed for that death, it just.
I just think that the way thatthey. They bought these two. These

(01:12:21):
two characters. Chrissy, it'sonly with us, this one episode. But
it. It's. It's to me, was so.I don't want to use the word powerful,
because I feel like we usethat too much, but, like, it just
resonated with, like. Yeah. Asa person who was friends with both
the theater kids and thepopular kids. I was like a floater

(01:12:42):
in high school. Right. I wasnever really popular myself, but
I could sometimes be popularadjacent, depending on, like, my
friend group. I don't see themthat way. When I talk about high
school, it's like my friend.And I won't use anyone's name because
some of them probably listento this podcast. But, like, this

(01:13:02):
person that other peoplethought of as being kind of the Regina
George of our high school wasa full person to me, who had her
own struggles and who I neverreally heard say anything mean about
anybody, who was just a personwho was blessed by genetics and was
really smart and was reallysocially was. What's the word I'm

(01:13:25):
looking for? She was sotalented socially. People liked her,
and a lot of people had adifferent experience of her where
they felt like they weren'tseen. But she was just like. When
it was just the two of us, shewas just like my nerdy friends who
were, like, actually into Dand D. She was just like my theater
friends who would sing in thecafeteria. Like, they were all just

(01:13:49):
people. And that's what Ireally liked about this moment. Like,
the way that Lucas and Elle'sstories in high school connected
with you. This moment betweenEddie and Chrissy connect with me.
Because it's like, yeah, like,once you get out of the cafeteria
and all the drama, this isactually what high school could be
like. If we were just like,hey, remember when we were in elementary

(01:14:10):
school and we were all gettingalong and before.
We came to high school andbefore we came to high school, which
high school to me in the waythat they're presenting it and the
way that I experienced it.And, you know, I hope to expand this
in some other ways. It's sortof like the Sorting Hat in Harry
Potter, right? It's sort oflike. And, you know, we. You know,
it's kind of like everybodygets put in. And I think that's what

(01:14:31):
Eddie speaking to in thatcafeteria monologue. Everybody gets
put into their littlecategories. But, yeah, I thought
he also was very complimentaryand kind to Chrissy. Like, when he
falls backwards, he uses,like, kind of like a physical language,
which, as a cheerleader,she'll be able to, like, resonate
with. Oh, wow, look, what thehell is he doing? And then he compliments
her even on. He said, youknow, you were cheerleading and you

(01:14:53):
were doing the thing that youdo, which is actually pretty cool.
He, like, calls out it asbeing a pretty cool thing that she
does. And I thought that thatwas like, you know, it's like this
stark contrast even to, like,what you would have perceived of
him in the cafeteriamonologue. Like, would this person
even say that or hang withthis person or be like that? It's
fascinating. And when youfirst meet him, When I first. When

(01:15:15):
I first saw Eddie, you and Italked about this. We're like, like,
oh, okay, they found a Billyreplacement. And then like, yeah,
I.
Because I realized why todaywhen I rewatched that episode, why
we felt that way. It's becauseof the way that Dustin and Mike approach
him. They're like, oh, he's onone today. Which makes you think
he's gonna bully them. Yeah,he does a little bit.

(01:15:37):
A little bit.
In a loving way.
Yeah.
Like a big brother bulliesthem. Right.
He said, I believe thechildren are the future.
Teach more. He's no more meanto them than Steve is to Dustin.
Yeah.
No, it's out of love, right?It's. It's like a shared. Well, no,
I was going to say kind oflike how Erica talks to everybody,

(01:15:59):
but no, Erica's being mean.He's actually being mean.
And Steve is actually. Steveis actually jealous. Steve is actually
jealous of this relationship.Steve is like, what's going on? Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Uhhuh. Yeah.
I love later in the seasonwhen Eddie tells Steve, yo. The way
that. That Dustin looks atyou. I could never. I could never

(01:16:19):
have that.
It's.
It's great. So Eddie Munsongone too soon.
Very much so.
Incredible character. And wewill have a piece on our sub stack
about Eddie. It might be upalready by the time this episode
is published.
That leads Us to. Anotherthing I think we really want to talk
about is God. Hopper'smonologue. I am the curse that he

(01:16:46):
comes to this conclusion. Iused to think I was cursed ever since
I was 18. Got some letter ofinduction in the mail. Uncle Sam
wants me to fight in some warin the jungle. I was happy enough
to go. Proved to my old man Iwasn't a piece of shit like he thought
I was. I get over there, and Imust have tested well, because they

(01:17:07):
put me in the chemical core.There I am, just a kid, 19 years
old, mixing up drums of AgentOrange with kitchen gloves. Breathed
it in. They told us it washarmless, just herbicide to kill
plants. This is powerfulstuff, man. And I got back home,
and the guys I work with, theones who made it back, started having

(01:17:30):
families. And then thingsstarted going wrong. Kids born stillborn,
dead in the womb. Spinestwisted. The horror followed us home.
My wife, Diane, she wanted ababy. We had one. Sarah. She was
perfect. And then she died. Iknew the risk, but I hid them. And

(01:17:50):
then Diane left. She didn'tblame me, not with words. But she
left. After that, I buriedmyself. In drugs, in work, in anything
that kept me from feeling.This is where we met Hopper. In that
numbed out state. Then peoplestarted coming into my life. This
girl, Elle, and Joyce. And Itold myself they needed me, but it
wasn't true. I needed them.You were right when you said last

(01:18:14):
night. I knew the risk. Ibroke out. Anyway, the minute I sent
for Joyce, I sentenced her todeath. Everyone I love, I hurt. I
was wrong this whole time. Iwasn't cursed. I am the curse. Wow.
I cried so hard.
Ugh. It's tough.

(01:18:36):
This speech is. First of all,the fans for years wanted to understand
Sarah's story better. And Ithink. I don't think they give us
all of it, but they give usmore. Here. The guilt that Hopper
has is walking around with.If. If Hopper was in. In Hawkins,

(01:18:59):
Vecna would definitely be onthat ass. Like he would. Vecna would
def. This is it. It explainsso much about Hopper, right? It explains
why it takes Hopper, like,essentially three seasons to work
up the. The guts to even justask Joyce out. It explains why he's

(01:19:22):
so protective of Elle inseason one. It explains why he don't
really like the Mike L pair upright away. Like.
Explains how he's able to,like, all the things he's able. Like,
you say, oh, he's just like anormal cop. It explains why he's
able to understand all thesethings. Around the Russian attack

(01:19:43):
and blase blood. All thesemilitary grade things that we were
like, oh, wait, he actuallyhas military experience in a way
that we didn't really understand.
You know, it's really, reallytough. And who could blame Hopper
for not telling Diane aboutthe other children, you know, that
his. His buddies wereexperiencing? Because he probably

(01:20:07):
thought he would get lucky.They would maybe would get lucky.
But it's. It's genuinelyterrible to believe that something
you did when you were 19 years old.
Yeah.
Is what essentially destroyedyour life and destroyed the life
of two other people. Yeah, it.It is. I love this speech.
Yeah.
But it is really hard. Andthis was sort of one of those moments

(01:20:27):
when I was like, oh, okay. Thewriting has really leveled up here.
It's so thematic thateverybody is experiencing these moments
of, like, here's a thing in mypast that I'm responsible for. Right.
So Elle already had one ofthose moments. She had one of those

(01:20:47):
moments in season one when shereveals that she touched the Demogorgon.
Right. But now she'sexperiencing another, which is that
she created Vecna. Like, thisis from the. You know, this doesn't
happen yet. But when she takesthe chip out of him, all of that.
That, like, she created thecircumstances which bought this chaos
into the world. We have Maxdealing with the fallout of Billy's

(01:21:11):
death and knowing that she waspart of the group of people that
fought Billy. We have Hopperdealing with the loss of Sarah, but
also with the fact that hesent. He had Enzo send Joyce that
doll in the first place,putting her life at risk, putting
the life of Elle at risk.

(01:21:32):
And also, here's lying again.Here's like. Here's like, another
lie through omission, like,where he lied to his wife about,
like, by omitting, like, hehad knowledge of, like, he says,
I had knowledge that this washappening, but I didn't share it.
Right. So I had some. Soagain, we're seeing people who have
withheld information that was.That ultimately had not only effects

(01:21:53):
for their own life, but thelives of others.
Yeah. And even when we thinkabout what's going on with Jonathan
and Nancy, Jonathan didn'tapply to Emerson.
Right.
And he doesn't want to justsay that. And so, so much of this
season is about, like, makingchoices that then haunt us. Except

(01:22:13):
for, in my opinion, Max didn'thave much of a choice, but. And Elle
definitely didn't have achoice that. That. That dude had
to get blasted into another dimension.
Yeah.
But it is. It is verythematic. Like, this speech Is the
whole Russian plot feelsoutside of the show. It feels like
you're watching another show.It feels like it should be a spy

(01:22:36):
movie with, like, Robertredford in the 1970s. Rest in peace,
my king. I love RobertRedford. It's thematic. It's. Everyone
is struggling with some secretor some. Some truth that they help
hold deep inside of them thatis coming to. Coming up, that is

(01:23:00):
coming to the surface. So Ijust think that I was like, chef's
kiss.
Yeah. And I think anotherthing is, for me especially, it's
another moment where theDuffers take something historical
that was happening veryprevalently in the 80s, and they

(01:23:20):
shine a light on it in thismoment. For those who don't know,
like, you know, this was athing that a lot of people dealt
with based on, like, chemicalreactions and things that were happening
based on being over in Vietnamand being close to, around or inhaling
or working with Agent Orange.And it. I'll say from. I don't know

(01:23:43):
if you remember, I won't saythe person's name, but in our childhood,
there was a kid that I went toschool with whose dad was a Vietnam
veteran who passed away, and.And he also got sick based on. And
I could never quiteunderstand, well, why would he get
sick and die as a kid from.From this thing that was like. Like,

(01:24:06):
I just thought, oh, well, it'sdust. Like, what? You know, as a
kid, you don't feel freakingunderstand. But I knew. I heard these
stories, like, as a youngperson in the 80s, 86, 84, 85. Like,
this was not an uncommon storyto hear people who had side effects
and were never quite the sameafter going to Vietnam and not because
of trauma, but because ofactual chemical warfare, you know,

(01:24:27):
So I thought it was very. Ithought it was very well done to
subtly bring in something thatcould have really been affecting
families and where people whoare watching the show may even have
a deeper connective tissue tothat actual issue. So well done.
So what themes do we want totalk about? What do you want to.
What are you thinking? Youwant to. Like. I mean, we're. We

(01:24:48):
can close out on themes andkind of what we learned.
Talk about. Actually, we'vetalked about most of what we learned.
Right. We already talk about.We've already talked about Vecna's
mind powers really beingvulnerable. The. I did want to just
raise this one thing, becausein my rewatch, I was like, oh, Paul's

(01:25:11):
been talking about time stuffsince the beginning.
In.
In Elle's letter to Mike, shehas this quote. Joy says time is
funny. Like, that emotions canmake it speed up or slow down.
I know. I heard.
And the. Everything. Thiswhole world is driven by emotion.

(01:25:33):
So I was like, oh, that's.That's another. I'm gonna do some
tinfoil hat for Paul here. But.
Yeah, yeah, no, I'm with you.
Or something might be going onwith time.
Yeah. Especially with the clock.
So I definitely. I. I heardthat right away. And I was like,
oh, okay.
While we're on Elle's letters,though, can we just. Can we just.

(01:25:53):
Just give a shout out andwe'll even pour one out for Mike's
ego and also give. Give Elle ashout out to family grade. Our family.
We. You guys who don't knowour family is really good at shade
and family grade, like, gradeA shade. When she goes. When she
does this whole, like, I'mfine. I'm leaving from Elle, like,

(01:26:14):
just to call out, no morelove. L. And Oh. I was like, yo,
look at Ellen.
Max taught our girl well. Iwas like, that's. That's right, sis.
Yes.
From L. From.
How about that one? How'd I feel?
She gonna diss track thatletter super hard.
He was there. Will's like, yo,bruh, it's not gonna change just

(01:26:37):
by staring at it. He isstaring hard, hoping it would change
from. From. To love. Nah, bro.Listen, anyway, it was funny. I thought
I. I laughed audibly, like,when I read that letter, like. Anyway.
So the only thing in thethemes that I think would maybe worth
talking about that we haven'talready talked about, because we've
talked about most of them,that. That we pulled out for this

(01:26:59):
episode is the. The identitypiece, which, again, I think is a
theme that applies to bothWill and Elle. They both struggle
with different elements oftheir identity, and. And Elle, especially
in these episodes, is like anew. She's experienced a kind of

(01:27:20):
death, which. I have a theorythat this is how Elle dies. Right?
Not really dies, but in the.In season five, I have a theory that
Elle will experience a type ofdeath, which is that she will have
no powers going forward. I'mjust. Thematically, I think that
that would be actually goodfor her, but they may not want to

(01:27:42):
do that to her a second time.We'll see. But Elle's whole arc and
struggle for identity issomething that we watch her go through
multiple times. She's. It's.She's figuring out how to be part
of a friend group, how to be.How to be a. A girl, how to find

(01:28:07):
her girlhood, right? Max, doesthat work with her? And now she's
figuring out who she iswithout superpowers. She has to kind
of look in the mirror for thefirst time and. And think about,
like, who she is beyond thehero behind, beyond the person who
can be used as a weapon, whocan save people, whose value in her

(01:28:32):
mind, I think is tied to thosepowers. Because that's how she was
raised. She had no value toBrenner as far as she knows. I do
think Brenner cared aboutElle, but I think Brenner cares about
himself and his pursuit ofwhat he's looking for, which we'll
talk about more in anotherepisode, more than any person. And

(01:28:56):
so I think that El is, for thefirst time in her life really trying
to figure out, like, what itmeans to have value without those
powers, without the ability todo for others. What does she bring
to the table when she's notable to save people? And so I think

(01:29:17):
that it's a theme that also, Ithink applies a little bit to Will,
but in a different way. Ithink that Will, like living in,
leaning into his identity,being, getting the freedom that Robin

(01:29:38):
has of being able to talk toSteve about having a crush on someone.
Just living that, Living anormal, like, open life that might
be help Will step into hispower when he feels that he doesn't
have to hold something likethat back. Especially, I mean, it's

(01:29:59):
1986. Let's not. Let's notpretend we don't know what was going
on during this era.
Yeah.
This was not a time where itwas safe to be gay.
No.
And frankly, we still don'tlive in a time where everyone is
safe to be gay wherever theyare. Queerness is still othered in
this country.
And we were really dealingwith AIDS epidemic. Right. As well.

(01:30:25):
Yeah.
Early days of the AIDSepidemic was happening as well. And
there was a lot of stigmaaround that too.
A lot of stigma.
However, I do think Will wouldfind comfort in being able to be
who he is to the people hecares about. Show him. Show them

(01:30:45):
his real self. And I. I wonderif that will help him break down
some of these other barriers.We. We did learn in these episodes
that Brenner believes that Elhas a traumatic block that is preventing
her from using her powers.What if Will has one too?
I agree. I. I could see thatbeing something that. That Will's

(01:31:09):
struggling with. And I'm sohappy that you brought up this because
it was something that I wasthinking about as I was watching.
And, you know, I'll revisitthis multiple times while we talk
about it. But again, I'm goingto mention the hero's journey, and
I'm going to mention theinnermost cave in the hero's journey.
And there's a. There's amoment in this kind of storytelling

(01:31:30):
arc of the hero's journeywhere somebody, the hero is said
to enter the innermost cage.And the innermost cage is a dangerous
central location in thespatial world where the hero faces
their ultimate ordeal. Wecould, in El's case, look at Project
Nina, right? She's facing theultimate thing that led to this whole

(01:31:55):
thing taking place, Right? Butwhat. It struck me because when her
and Owens are sitting in thediner, he says something that I sat
up and I said to myself, holyshit, is Owen's Yoda in this scenario?
And I know that sounds crazy,but there's a scene in Star wars
where. Where Skywalker, withLuke Skywalker and Empire Strikes

(01:32:20):
Back, is going to the Dagobahsystem to. Because Obi Wan Kenobi,
post death, says to him thathe should go to. I know. I'm walking
you through it. I'm walkingthrough it.
I'm like, I only understandsome of these words. Yeah, I know
what Obi Wan Kenobi is.
Yeah. So he says to him thathe needs to go to the Dagobah system
and he needs to go seek out,you know, guidance. And he goes and

(01:32:43):
he seeks out Yoda, and Yodaand him start training. And as he's
training, there's a battlethat's happening, obviously with
Darth Vader and the Emperor,and there's like, things that are
happening to his friends. AndYoda turns to him and says that you
can't really help your friendsif you go now, like, something bad

(01:33:07):
will happen. But if you stayand keep training, you'll be able
to do more. And Owens almostsays the exact same things. If you
go to your friends now, worsethings will happen. But you have
to decide now that you'regoing to come with me. And this is
the same pitch that Yoda saysto. To Luke Skywalker and in that
instance in Empire StrikesBack. The parallels here is that

(01:33:31):
Luke goes into a cave where hefaces Darth Vader in the cave, which
is the innermost cave. And inthat moment, he strikes Darth Vader
down. And he realizes it'sthat he sees his own face behind
the mask. It's a precursor toLuke finding out if you haven't seen
Star Wars. Pause fast forward.I'm about to spoil it. It's a Precursor

(01:33:55):
to Luke finding out that DarthVader is actually his father. He
doesn't understand it. Yodaunderstands it.
Are there people who don'tknow that?
I don't know, but we're justgoing to say I just didn't. I don't
want to spoil it in case. Butexactly. So why is that important?
One, the Duffers haveoutwardly said now in interviews
how much they've taken the.Some of what they're going to do

(01:34:18):
with Vecna Season 5 From whatthey have experienced in the lore
of Star wars with Darth Vader.This interviews, they've talked about
it. The other piece about itthat I think is really relevant besides
just the normal arc of thehero's journey in its innermost case
is that we're seeing. We'reseeing things that kind of indicate.

(01:34:38):
And we don't know where thisgoes. We're seeing this kind of indicate
that El may be the hero withthat. With what Owen says in the
diner he's presenting, shethinks she's the monster still. He's
like, I'm betting that you'reone of the good ones. Right. But
we're also seeing that for meanyway, what I'm looking at it is
that in order for her toreally be the hero that she needs

(01:34:59):
to be, she's going to have toface the pain that brought her here.
The thing that brought her tothis point of needing to even be
a hero, to even save people'slives. The origin story of that.
And I think that that's verysimilar to what we see play out in
other fantasy stories. And Isaw a deep connection to Star wars

(01:35:22):
lore. Nightmare of Elm street,obviously in this whole thing they
have found ways to combinethese stories that they love, these
genre films and call back tothese things in ways that are just
like remarkable and notfeeling heavy handed. Like if you're
just watching this and youdon't know anything about what I
just said, you still geteverything you need. But it is the

(01:35:47):
same hero's journey that Lukewas on in this exact moment that
El is on when she goes toProject Nina is where he goes before
he goes and meets. And in factwhen he leaves and goes, he goes
and he meets up with DarthVader, turns himself in and is standing
eventually like, well,obviously they fight each other first.

(01:36:10):
And eventually he's dealingwith this kind of conflict of this
fight where you see El isfighting with Brenner, this person
who is her papa, right whereLuke is fighting his father. So I
think there's a lot of likethem seeing storytelling that they
love and really ingesting itinto this story. And it just works
to me. It works for thisparticular run.

(01:36:31):
It does. I made a face whenyou said it's not heavy handed because
I do think that the allusionsto that lady story that we don't
like to talk about are thereand are quite heavy handed.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that'strue. Yeah. And all right, we'll
say one time we're not goingto say her name, but we're talking
about, I mean, we're.

(01:36:51):
Gonna, when we talk about the,the trailer and the play, I think
we're gonna have to talkabout, talk about the world of Harry
Potter a little bit.
Yeah.
But like, I actually thinksome, some of the Harry Potter stuff
is, is kind of heavy handed.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And, and I, I don't know whereto, how to feel about it at this
stage, but like, if it wasalready B, I. And also Matt and Ross

(01:37:17):
Duffer are Elder millennials,so it's part of, it's part, probably
part of their story of people,of people who like grew up with those
books and experience thosemovies. But yeah, I, I hear you.
Of the Star wars stuff,obviously I can't make that connection.
But what I like whenever youtalk about the hero's journey, what

(01:37:39):
I like about it is that you'retalking about a story that is special
to you, but I can see theelements of that in other stories
that are special to me. And ofcourse you and I can both see the
elements of that in storieswe've covered together. Like his
dark materials, which is onethat we, we keep bringing up. But
I think, because there's a lotof similarities between Lyra, who

(01:38:01):
was one of the chosen ones,and El. And I think that that, that's
what makes it. The reason thatpeople use that, that sort of model
to write hero stories isbecause it works, it resonates. People,
People can identify with ahero who is chosen, goes on a journey,

(01:38:23):
struggles. No one likes a herowho's just a hero. Like if Elle just
was like, walks in a room andwas like, gate closed.
Yeah, open. Where's theconflict? Right? Yeah.
Where's the conflict? Itwouldn't be a good one, we would
probably think she's just avillain. But two, it wouldn't be
a good story. It's not how youget to, you get to know and love

(01:38:44):
a hero. So I, I'm also of thebelief that this is also Will's hero
journey. I just don't thinkwe've seen the. I think we've seen
the struggle. I don't thinkwe've seen the part where Will stands
up and gets to play that role.And I always think of a part of the

(01:39:10):
Captain Marvel movie that wasmade fun of by many people, but a
lot of women resonated with itwhen she is thinking about all the
times that she got knockeddown and how every single time she
stood back up. I think whatwe've been watching is all of Will
take a bunch of Ls, and atsome point he will stand up. And
I just want to see what it isthat makes him. What's the motivation

(01:39:34):
for doing that? Because he'shis. His love for Elle doesn't seem
to be something that motivateshim to stand up in the moment. I
do think he would stand up forMike, but I wonder if there are other
people there, would he take aleadership role in standing up for
Mike? So Will. Will finallystand up for Hawkins, for his mom,
for all of his friends. Like,we'll see.

(01:39:56):
I think it's coming because Ithink one of the things that Victor
Krill says about Henry Krill,that Joyce says about, like, Will
is, you know, my son Henry, hewas a sensitive child, and we hear
that, and you've mentionedthat before on the podcast. And I
think that it's. It's animportant piece because I think,

(01:40:17):
you know, sensitivity,empathy, being, you know, an empath,
I think at some point he'sgoing to come face to face with the
same choice that Victor cameface to face that Henry came face
to face with. And we're goingto hope that Will, based on all of
the things that we've seenthis group of found family put into

(01:40:37):
him, is going to choose themover, you know, going with the Mind
Flayer and Vector. Right.
And I think that's a. That'seasy for us to say. Oh, yeah. Well,
it's got so much more goingfor him than Henry. But Will, what
Max has shown us is Will hasto believe that he has to want to
fight for it.
Right. Was.
Reckon I could have had Max,but Max was like, actually, no.

(01:41:00):
Right.
I'm not ready to go yet, so.So. But. But she had the help of
her friends. Right. So I. Ithink we will definitely see that
in season five. I mean, I hope.
I hope so too. I really do.And we're gonna cover a little bit
about season five in anotherepisode based on the trailer, kind

(01:41:22):
of some of our predictions andthings like that. So, you know, if
you're with us here, you know,we're so grateful that you got, you're
watching and listening anddoing your rewatch and joining us
for your rewatch. We're lovingcovering Stranger Things. Thanks

(01:41:43):
for, for checking us out.Please go hit up our sub stack. Go
to kinfolklore.com you've beendoing some great work on there, cuz
I love all the pieces you'vebeen writing. Yeah, it's great. It's
good stuff. And, and yeah,definitely interact with us. Hit
us up on kinfolklore gmail.comkenfolklore pod on Instagram, on

(01:42:05):
Threads now and also on onTwitter X.
No, no, no, no.
Twitter still the bird app.Yeah. And yeah, we are loving doing
this. We love to interact withyou. We love having the conversations
we've been having. So untilnext time, we'll see you soon.
Bye everyone. Sam.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang

Crime Junkie

The Brothers Ortiz

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Kinfolklore: Stranger Things Sn.4 (Chapters 1-5)

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang

Crime Junkie

The Brothers Ortiz

All Episodes

Kinfolklore: Stranger Things Sn.4 (Chapters 1-5)

Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang